[This message has been edited by Jacqueline (edited 01 January 2003).]
You said “The papers they give you will satisfy the police if you are challenged when out together in the evenings and will satisfy the landlord of any flat that you rent so that you can live together, but this is not a legal marriage.”
The fact that the police recognize this paper means that it is legal from their point of view. Which leads me to think that this paper has some legal and even social value. The paper may or may not be legal in the country of the foreign spouse. Several members of this forum have good experience with this sort of thing. It seems that in Egypt there are several forms of marriage, not all of which are recognized by all parties. Then there is the issue of rights.
When two people are living together, committed to each other and this relationship is known within their community (i.e. it is not secretive), then in my world this marriage. Other things are merely contractual arrangements to protect the rights of each party to the marriage. It is interesting to note that a common-law spouse in one country has far more rights that a female spouse who is married legally in Egypt and her marriage is fully recognized by all parties if the relationship ends.
Women in love or in lust or who are desperate may rationalize this very selfish form of "marriage" to an unbelievable degree. In my opinion, a good and honest man is worth waiting for.
[This message has been edited by Jacqueline (edited 01 January 2003).]
[This message has been edited by niledoc (edited 21 October 2003).]
[This message has been edited by niledoc (edited 21 October 2003).]
I wasn't going to reply to you because i don't know much about Orfi and i don't know much about Luxor, but if that was an Orfi paper then i'm sure it should have only cost you about LE£100 - 300. I'm sure someone else can clarify. Did he pay 900 egyptian pounds or some other currency?!? Were you not there when he got the Orfi paper? From what i understand for it to be Orfi, you would have to be there too, because you need to sign and you must have 2 witnesses. Also i think that you usually get an English translation.
You rented a flat for £250, was that Egyptian or English pounds? Like i said before i don't know much about Luxor, but if you paid £250 English pounds what did you rent... a mansion!?! Can someone else clarify if it's usual to pay that much in Luxor? It seems quite high to me which means that someone may have taken commission for finding you the flat. An Egyptian should be able to get you a good price. For an example, when i am in Egypt i stay in Hurghada and i pay between £70-100 sterling per month, for a 1 or 2 bedroom flat. Maybe Luxor is more expensive.... i don't know.
You say this guy was called Jack... was that a nickname? I wasn't aware that Egyptians had names like that!
I'm sorry that it seems like i'm interrogating you - seeing as you only wanted to know about Orfi, but your situation sounds strange and i'm sure you would like to know if unfortunately you have met one of the 'bad' Egyptians.
I hope someone can correct me where i may be wrong.
Good Luck
[This message has been edited by Nefertiti (edited 22 June 2003).]
Look guys/girls we all know the reality of any situation. How legal a contract is or is not doesn't mean **** all. It is about the person. Only you know that, us on the forums can give all we like but we don't know your man. Only you know that and if you are relying on us to judge your man you don't stand a chance.
When I first read about the different marriages and realised I was ORFI I was gutted, totally. when I phoned Mahmoud I threw a complete wobbly. However I soon realised my mistake, despite everything people say I am completely convinced that he did not know that this marriage was not halal in the eyes of the 'authorities' he wanted something that gave me respectability and protecte him and I. Egyptians go to prison for pre martial sex, he didn't want me judged by his friends and family. when I told him it wasn't marriage in England he was all for going to Cairo and doing it there but I (after speaking to Shareen) realised that ORFI is perfect for me, i have not intentions of having any more children and I wanted any English propery to remain with me and my child.
At the end of the day i have someone who told me last night that he was really jealous and wanted me for myself, well I am sorry only a man in love could say that, for God's sake I am 48 and fat what chance have I of attracting scores of nublie young men, but he thinks i could. Hurrah.
I totally believe in my Mahmoud, hey I could be wrong but only by testing the water can I find out. But I have kept on my property in England and I am renting it out so I have both an income and a refuge.
I have known Mahmoud 3 years and I know his family and they love me BUT who knows. I am taking it carefully but fully. I am emigrating, I have given him substainal sums of money and I taking my 11 year old daughter with me. But as I already said i have kept my house and I have good friends and I read forums like this so I am alive to the posibilites.
For me it is about your glass being half full or half empty, i am the half full brigade. I have had highs and lows in my life but never ever have i been boring.
Having said all that the price your man quoted is bollocks, Mahmoud told me tonight he paid under 20 quid for the whole deal including registration at the court, 2 months later.
Be careful my dear BUT enjoy your life.
quote:
Originally posted by deborah:
Jack told me the paper cost £900.00, as I didn't have that sort of cash, he paid for it, money he had saved. I didn't understand why a peice of paper could cost so much! He explained that it wasn't a marriage licence or marriage certificate but it was just so we could be together.
------------------
quote:
Originally posted by akshar:
It is about the person. Only you know that, us on the forums can give all we like but we don't know your man. Only you know that and if you are relying on us to judge your man you don't stand a chance.
I could not have said it better.
I rented a beautiful furnished 2 bedroom flat for 2 weeks (7 years ago)in Luxor it cost me less than £50 sterling.
From the little I know, an orfi paper costs about LE20.
Can you be sure the family he introduced you to was actually his family?
This wouldn't be the first time that an Egyptian man (who uses many nicknames) introduces his tourist girlfriend to a family on the opposite side of town from his real family.
No way does any "legal" document cost £900 English or LE 900 Egyptian pounds.
By telling you that he paid that kind of money for it, can only make you think more highly of him.
He must be earning great money and be in a fantastic job if he can save up £900 English for a piece of legal paper, that you weren't even there to understand, read and sign.
Do lawyers hand out legal papers to couples with just one of them being present?
If he does love you, he will, with chaperone, take you to Cairo to the address that Jacqueline provides in her opening post, and pay for documents at the Minstry of Justice and separate rooms in hotel. To keep everything respectable and proper.
He should treat you like the princess he probably says you are.
They all say that - you are his princess or queen.
There is nothing stopping him from having many tourist orfi wives, I have seen this happen.
If you want to be his pretend wife for 2 or 3 weeks of the year, then that's fine but you'll never know what's going on in his life the rest of the year.
They are rarely the exclusive partner of just one tourist. But some people don't mind sharing.
On your next holiday, would it be possible, someone on the board correct me if this isn't the Egyptian way, but if his family have a spare bed, could Deborah stay with them and truly experience Egyptian life?
So that if they accept her as his real and legal wife, chances are she will be expected to live with him and his family at the family home.
Let me understand this, your mother and father stayed in the hotel and allowed you to stay in a rented flat with a strange man you had met for 1 or 2 weeks before?
Would you share a flat, separate rooms of course, with the attractive man you speak to at the bus stop on the way to work, after chatting to him for a few weeks? Would you know him well enough to do that?
If anything happened to you at the flat, would you have the correct full name for this man, his address, any way of tracking him down?
I'm not having a go at you Deborah, just a bit surprised at the quickness of it all and concerned at the lack of your judgement when it comes to personal safety and falling in love so quickly.
I hope you get a chance to read some of the older postings on this board from other tourist girlfriends.
Others in the future will read this posting and we have all made some valid points.
If I got in a taxi and a man I hardly knew, but I knew his nickname, wanted to share it with me, I'd stick the heid on him.
I'm more aware of my safety abroad where everyone is a stranger.
Be careful and don't rush into anything.
[This message has been edited by wise_woman (edited 25 June 2003).]
And thank you for your honest replies, they are much appreciated. Trust is possibly one of the hardest feelings to feel when all of it has been betrayed in the past. When I met Jack, (his real name is Mustafa)I had no doubts about him, a first for me. I do love Jack, but I must admit your replys have given me some thinking and perhaps confronting to do. I wasn't asking you to judge my man - that is my job, i was asking for advice on this orfi marriage thing - i'm under no illusion that i'm legally married, I know i'm not.
thanks again
isis141@hotmail.com
Regards
Shareen
quote:
Originally posted by LYAKOUT:
You will never become an Egyptian citizen since you are not of Egyptian blood and neither would your children.
LYAKOUT,
i agree with what you said but I just wanted to correct one piece of information; Her children WILL become Egyptian citizens.
Ayman
quote:
Originally posted by ayman2:
LYAKOUT,i agree with what you said but I just wanted to correct one piece of information; Her children WILL become Egyptian citizens.
Ayman
Ayman, I'm pretty sure she was referring to the children of the previous marriage. I know I was thinking the same as you, but since the woman is a single mother (isn't she? or is that another string....oh it's so confusing now...so many foreign women and so many Egyptian men getting married...LOL) her children from the previous marriage would never become Egyptian citizens, I guess.
Apparently, and I have checked this out if a woman converts to Islam and her existing husband does not(married or seperated) she is no longer married. I think this is because whilst a man can marry a Jew or a Christian a women can only marry (or be married) to a Muslim.
I have no idea what the case is if you are a Christian, I suspect your Orfi is a bit suspect as you were not free to enter into it. People think the Orfi is not a real legal entity and they can be casual about it. It might be lesser legally than the the full blown thing but it is still a legal thing and if you (as a women) enter into multiple Orfi's you are breaking the law. Women can only marry one husband, be that marriage Orfi or other
------------------
Uk Co-owner ofwww.flatsinluxor.co.uk Accomodation and Tours in Luxor
[This message has been edited by eserry (edited 27 July 2003).]
[This message has been edited by Jacqueline (edited 01 January 2003).][/QUOTE
Hi my sister is a Dr. and she met a Pre Doc student who is an Egyptian citizen in New York and after less than 6 months of courtship he got engaged to her, he told her they must get engaged because is its unaccepatable for a eqyptian man to date a women without being engaged. Since his arrival in her life she has distance herself from her family. I have always been concerned that he just wants a visa then he will leav her or that he may already be married with children and she is unaware. I want to believe he loves her and that he is honest but since he is an Egypt citizen, if they got married here in NY would it be legal. Should we be concerned at the quickness of the engagement, he says he is a Christian. I feel something funny with this
It seems this subject is interesting to some of you, so I just wanted to say my point of view on it.
Due to the economic crisis at the present, many Egyptian males and females find it hard to get married while in their twenties.
It is common nowadays to find women and men getting married in their mid or late thirties, especially among the educated, because they aim to live according to a certain social and financial standard.
One phenomenon that has increased tremendously in recent years is orfi marriage – i.e. marriage without a declared official certificate or the knowledge of parents, and where the man and woman agree to marry and sign a paper and keep it to themselves.
Orfi marriage does not require the husband of any financial obligations to his wife, and it is based on discreteness. Free sexual relations are prohibited by both religion and social norms. Hence, many young couples who want to be together and do not have the financial means to get married properly resort to the orfi method.
They view it as a temporary solution, but in reality it causes them a lot of trouble. One among many is when the girl gets pregnant and the boy abandons her and refuses to acknowledge their marriage.
Some husbands resort to orfi marriage because it does not require them of any financial obligations.
They aim to keep it discreet because they know if their wives would find out about it, they could indeed get into trouble that might lead to divorce and financial compensation.
Extramarital relations are also common among Egyptian husbands. Many wives can live with the idea of their husbands having affairs with other women, but not with orfi marriage.
Many wives believe that most husbands get involved in extramarital relations and it is a fact of life about men in general, but orfi marriage is considered betrayal and going out of limits.
The same goes with the idea of polygamy, many educated men and women dislike the idea of polygamy and believe it was allowed by Islam only under strict conditions which makes it extremely difficult to happen.
But every rule has its exceptions. Nowadays, and due to the many difficulties of getting married and securing a good standard of life, some educated women are beginning to accept being the second or third wife than not getting married at all!
One dominant saying among wives in Egypt is: “The shadow of a man is better than the shadow of a wall.” The image of marriage gives the Egyptian wife security and prestige in a society that is still very critical of the concept of divorce or remaining single.
Among the less educated strata, however, polygamy is an acceptable practice by both males and females, but many men do not practice it simply because they cannot afford it.
What is also peculiar about the Egyptian society is that you can always find ways to enjoy yourself even if your financial means are limited.
It is very common to see couples strolling by the Nile holding hands and chatting, or groups of people sitting at the many scattered street cafés smoking the hookah (shisha) and playing games, or families taking a feluka (small boat) ride in the Nile.
Hope this clear some things.
------------------
Regards
adoula777@yahoo.com
quote:
Originally posted by ANNIEBRIANY:
Hi my sister is a Dr. and she met a Pre Doc student who is an Egyptian citizen in New York and after less than 6 months of courtship he got engaged to her, he told her they must get engaged because is its unaccepatable for a eqyptian man to date a women without being engaged. Since his arrival in her life she has distance herself from her family. I have always been concerned that he just wants a visa then he will leav her or that he may already be married with children and she is unaware. I want to believe he loves her and that he is honest but since he is an Egypt citizen, if they got married here in NY would it be legal. Should we be concerned at the quickness of the engagement, he says he is a Christian. I feel something funny with this[/B]
all I can tell you is that it is indeed common for egyptians to get engaged soon, engagement is actually what americans would call dating. depending on the social level a couple would not go out alone if not at least engaged.
wether he is christian or not I don't know, why do you doubt it? from what you told us so far about this relationship I can see nothing funny....
quote:
Originally posted by coloreen:
all I can tell you is that it is indeed common for egyptians to get engaged soon, engagement is actually what americans would call dating. depending on the social level a couple would not go out alone if not at least engaged.wether he is christian or not I don't know, why do you doubt it? from what you told us so far about this relationship I can see nothing funny....
I'm so glad I found this forum. I don't know if I'm looking for advice, a good listener, a shoulder to laugh/cry on, or a confessional. Maybe all of the above. I think I'm just relieved to know that I'm not alone here.
I met HIM in Jan. 03. He was a waiter on one of the Nile cruise boats; I was a passenger. He tells me that he's since been promoted to dining manager (not restaurant manager yet, though that may come later when his Eglish improves). I went back to Egypt in June/July 03 for school, and he met me in Cairo, where we spent some time together, and later I visited him in Luxor on some weekends. Finished the summer trip together in Hurghada. He dropped hints all along that he wanted to marry me. Finally asked me the last few days in Hurghada.
I still can't tell if I'm the luckiest woman in the world or the most gullible. And I know only time will tell. But some insight from you ladies will help tremendously.
He's mid-30s, I'm late-40s. I've met his best friend and two of his brothers. I'm certain that one brother is legitimate because that brother works on the same Nile cruise boat and introduced himself to me on the cruise as HIS brother. Brother No. 2 looks just like Brother NO. 1, and there is a family resemblence.
When I visited HIM in Luxor, one of the first things he wanted to do was have our photo made together at a professional studio, which we did ... then he took me to what I can only call a by-the-hour f*** hotel, thought that's not exactly what we did there.
On later trips we stayed together in a rented flat. Which is also what we did in Hurghada. I paid for about two-thrids of the lodging costs. I know that Egyptians can work very hard and make very little money. And my logic was that I would have to pay to stay somewhere, whether he was along or not.
He wanted me to meet the rest of his family, have dinner with them, and he had asked his borther to make the arrangements. But it turned out that was not possible because the family lives in a town outside of Luxor where tourists do not go, and the Tourism Police needed more advance notice to arrange an escort.
When I met the best friend, the best friend told me that some other of HIS friends had advised him to marry me at the American Embassy (I'm American) in Cairo, but that HE refused to do this because such a marriage would not be legitimate in the eyes of the church (HE is Christian and so in the best friend). The best friend said that HE would rather put himself in danger than to do something like that.
However, HE did suggest that we register as friends with the Luxor Tourist Police, which I refused to do because it just sounded too weird, even for Egypt.
I've since learned that it is not possible to marry at the American Embassy, that legal marriages have to take place at some other Egyptian office in Cairo. And from what I read in your postings, it sounds like registering with the Tourist Police is not something that is possible ... that the fake marriage thing is.
I think you can fill in the blanks as to what my questions are: Does HE really love me or does he want money, American citizenship or something else I haven't even thought of?
I think HE loves me because he telephoned me regularly when I was in Egypt and since I have been back in the US. And we keep up with one another by e-mail. On the one hand, I think HE is honest and would be faithful because he is Christian. HE even made a point of saying that there were a couple of women on his ship recently who wanted to meet him, but he refused. But on the other hand, well, during the let's-get-acquainted stage, HE didn't behave that much differently towards me than the Moslem men, who I was not interested in getting to know better. In fact if HE had not been a Christian, I would never have taken an interest in him.
There are many more details I could give, pro and con. But basically, I have a lot of questions. And I don't know how I'm going to get them all answered to my satisfaction.
Anyway, here I am feeling like I'm ready to chuck it all and move to Egypt. But I think I want to do that anyway just because I love it there. I'd just like to know for sure what I'm dealing with where HE is concerned, you know?
Thanks for listening, girlfriends, and responding when you can.
PITO
so it all depends on if you trust him or not.
if you are already considering moving to egypt anyway, then do that, but with no expectation regarding to him. once here, you will find out about the culture and egyptians and you will be able to judge the situation much more clearly than anyone could tell you through the internet.
Yes, you have to make the decision yourself, but I highly recommend that if you move to Egypt, you do it assuming you will support yourself for some time, and get to know this man better.
Two things happen when you do that.
#1 - You do find out that there are bijillions of other Egyptian men all wanting to meet you, and many of them are wonderful and DO NOT work in tourism, which is a really really wonderful thing.
#2 - You get to really know the man that you are fond of now. You'll find out if he is sincere or for some reason in some rush to get married. You've already slept with him so he can't use the excuse that you must be married for the sex, which is one they use and use successfully on some western women that think it's so moral and cute that he won't sleep with them until after marriage. You'll also get a better feel for if you'd really want to be married to a man that works on a cruise boat with wealthy beautiful women coming on board every week anew. You'll get a feel for if you really trust him, I think.
Living in Egypt, supporting yourself gives you all sorts of freedom to explore your new feelings, a new life and whatever else you are looking for. If you come expecting him to support you, you are walking into the fire, if you ask me. What recourse do you have at that point if it doesn't work out?
How does he do it? Please give us advice!
Yes we went to Lazoghly (did I spell it right?) plus he gave me a dowry (some jewellry and his dad gave some money to both of us, a lot perhaps by Egyptian standards but not when converted into pounds!) We had two men present as well as the lawyer at Lazoughly and before going there we went to the British consulte and got a paper from there, a declaration neither had been legally married. Initially we thought we needed papers saying there was no record of a previous marriage but found out we did not. So I know we are both clear! Our marriage is valid in both Egypt and England but visa issues are separate (marriage no guarentee to a visa for him but then again I am not British, even if I was no guarentee) and I do not know yet if it is valid in my home country but that is not a problem just yet. In my case (so far, anyway!) I struck the jackpot with this one. I think he is gorgeous and sexy plus very very good to me. But I know not all Egyptian men are as good -the same can be said for people from any country though. He says he has never heard of "orfi" but is not from Luxor anyway but from a small place an hour out of Cairo. I have met his family and stayed with him and them at his house there which despite the language barriers etc. I reccommend, I was a lot more worried perhaps he was a bad un before that although my instinct and heart knew he was good. I felt no bad vibes from them and he did not change into a bad person in his home country. I am very glad to have found that out! Plus he has lived at home till me. In fact he says one wife (me) is MORE than enough he'd NEVER want TWO!! So yes you need Lazoghley I just asked hubby now and he said you MUST have a dowry from the man (I got a wedding ring and a necklace and like I said some money) and the main man at Lazoghley Justice of the peace or whatever you said it should be made us repeat words after him, my now hubby translated some of them. Also, we paid to get a translation of our marriage certificate into English so now we have both. Not required, it was for my benefit. We have our fingerprints on it and our photos. I am telling you this so you know what you need for a GENUINE LEGALLY VALID marriage.
[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 11 October 2003).]
quote:
Originally posted by Phoenix:
From a woman who has legally married an Egyptian (in May)Yes we went to Lazoghly (did I spell it right?) plus he gave me a dowry (some jewellry and his dad gave some money to both of us, a lot perhaps by Egyptian standards but not when converted into pounds!) We had two men present as well as the lawyer at Lazoughly and before going there we went to the British consulte and got a paper from there, a declaration neither had been legally married. Initially we thought we needed papers saying there was no record of a previous marriage but found out we did not. So I know we are both clear! Our marriage is valid in both Egypt and England but visa issues are separate (marriage no guarentee to a visa for him but then again I am not British, even if I was no guarentee) and I do not know yet if it is valid in my home country but that is not a problem just yet. In my case (so far, anyway!) I struck the jackpot with this one. I think he is gorgeous and sexy plus very very good to me. But I know not all Egyptian men are as good -the same can be said for people from any country though. He says he has never heard of "orfi" but is not from Luxor anyway but from a small place an hour out of Cairo. I have met his family and stayed with him and them at his house there which despite the language barriers etc. I reccommend, I was a lot more worried perhaps he was a bad un before that although my instinct and heart knew he was good. I felt no bad vibes from them and he did not change into a bad person in his home country. I am very glad to have found that out! Plus he has lived at home till me. In fact he says one wife (me) is MORE than enough he'd NEVER want TWO!! So yes you need Lazoghley I just asked hubby now and he said you MUST have a dowry from the man (I got a wedding ring and a necklace and like I said some money) and the main man at Lazoghley Justice of the peace or whatever you said it should be made us repeat words after him, my now hubby translated some of them. Also, we paid to get a translation of our marriage certificate into English so now we have both. Not required, it was for my benefit. We have our fingerprints on it and our photos. I am telling you this so you know what you need for a GENUINE LEGALLY VALID marriage.
[This message has been edited by Phoenix (edited 11 October 2003).]
phoenix,
Can you remember how much it all cost, for the papers and the ceremony? Would it be okay to email you? my email address is charmed0001@aol.com
------------------
Jennifer
1. Can Egyptian legally married more than one wife (including Egyptian and foreign woman)?
2. Can foreign man lived with Egyptian lady with out any paper or they still need legal of illegal marriage paper?
3 Is that easy for a foreign man lived with "Rich Egyptian lady"? Do there have much "Rich Egypt lady" there?
4. If a foreign man lived with a foreign woman, is this legal in Egypt? or still need the "paper".
5. As noted that from one of message that police will ask for seeing the paper when Egyptian guy with foreign lady at night. Will police ask the same for Egyptian lady with foreign guy? If they go a group of people, will the police ask for the same too?
6. Or just the police ask when two people seems as a lover/a pair? Will the police ask the same things from foreign guy with foreign lady?
7. As knowing there is "bad" Egyptian guy chasing foreign due to money. Then, is there any "bad" Egyptian lady chasing foreign and also for money? If yes, then will those Egyptian lady providing "illegal" marriage with foreign (business) man so as living in same place and providing wife service to him?
I really hope to make more clear about it, as my husband is need to station at there due to his job. And he only back home for 3 times in a year. Firstly, in beginning when he station there, we plan to be there and live together. But now, he got much excuse and ask me to stay home. When I ask to buy a ticket by myself to go and live in hotel, he refuse me to done in this way and ask me to wait him as he haven't settle down even for the apartment. He told me that it is difficult to find apartment in Cairo and actually I don't believe him. He also told me that if I really go, there is no place for me to live and he is trying his best to settling his job first and will make me going there ASAP. But we already talking about this from Mid-July upto now. It make me doubt on him that he must lived with lady at there. Hope to getting all your reply or comments in this cases.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 02 June 2004).]
Firstly, thanks of your viewing. Actually, I have planning to do so. But before I did it, I need to know more about the marriage culture of Egyptian and his situation too so as to planning in a perfect way. May be I don't have the need to go or see what he did and break with him or may be he is have his right point.
He telling me that he is not working too long in this Company. His boss will concern that he is not working at there just for tour with me. Therefore, he want to settle down and let his boss believe him and he promise me to bring me go there ASA he can. As I am his wife, I need to support him and trust him, right? So before I am taking the action, I need to think more carefully will this affecting his job and I need to balance everythings. It is not easy to be a wife nowadays.
Fox
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 02 June 2004).]
My first question to you is what age range are you and your husband in, and more importantly, what kind of job does he do in Eygpt? Is he a professional? Is he 20 yrs old or 40 yrs old?
If he is a professional, with a professional job, then his employer should be very willing to accomodate him and HIS FAMILY here in Egypt. If he was brought to Egypt by this company to work for them and they hired him in a professional manner (ie: he received a decent expat employment package), I am very surprised that he wasn't given a flat by the company in an area to house his family (even if his family means YOU AND HIM only).
If you can answer some of these questions, then maybe we can give you some insight as to what might be or might not be going on.
1. He is not Egyptian. He is Asian.
2. He is in Management Level.
3. He is my finacee and we already living together in Asia.
4. He leave all of his monthly salary for my living every month.
5. He had apartment sharing with other staff.
6. He want to find a better apartment (middle level) but costing at lower price. He don't want to share with other people and can keeping his personal private. As he like to get more shower in hot days. If the house was sharing with others, he feel it is not fair to others roomate to share the expenses.
7. I find a room at Mohandissen, but he tell me it is not much of Street Light in Mohandissen at night, is that truth? He say it is a poor area and he say that I'll not accept the room. He also tell me that from Mohandissen to Dokki (19 Kampeez Street) need 40 mins by walk, is this also true? Or just he don't want me to go?
Fox
Sorry that I haven't telling you the following:-
1. He is 40s+ of age and I am 30s+.
2. He tell me that he already mentioned to his boss he has a finacee and will settle down with me in Egypt. However, his boss need him to prove that he can actually take up the job to their satisfaction so that they will feel comfortable to keep him here and give another employment package to his family.
(Why need this proving due to somethings was happened on the work which "NOT" occured by him but by his staff. As he is management level, he have the responsbility of everythings occured by his staff who made a big problem for him and the boss need him to solve it first so as to prove that he is suitable for this job.)
That is totally what he is telling to me.
Besides, is it there are much Chinese Ladies in Cairo? Which district got much more of Chinese Ladies? My finacee say that it is difficult to see any Chinese in Cairo especially in Dokki, is it true or just he lie to me again?
Fox
[This message has been edited by Lady_Fox (edited 30 November 2003).]
[This message has been edited by Lady_Fox (edited 30 November 2003).]
[This message has been edited by Lady_Fox (edited 30 November 2003).]
First, Mohandiseen is one of the nicer districts in Cairo....but I don't know what you/he is comparing it to, so maybe it isn't as nice as that. I would say that a lot of Mohandiseen is lit up well at night, but even if it weren't Cairo is one of the safest urban cities in the world, and even if it weren't, why can't you stay at home in the evenings until you learn how to be safe? It doesn't compute much on these reasons. I have NO idea how far a walk it is for one address to another there.
The part about not being lots of Chinese people in Cairo, I'd say is true. There are many asians, but I don't think there are many Chinese. I know a few Indonesian women, and there are many Filopinos (they comprise a good percentage of the domestic work force). You might want to contact the Embassy of China and find out some exact figures from them before accusing him of lieing to you on this bit.
I can understand his companies excuse for not giving him housing for a fiance and himself before his period of testing on the job is finished....but on the other hand it was fairly naive of him to accept the job without getting houseing in his package. He may not understand yet, but the two of you could live together in his flat if he does get one. Everyone would assume you are married and it would be fine. He would have to learn to refer to you as his wife though and you to him as your husband.
As to your concern earlier about Egyptian girls trying to get close to him.... my reaction now that I know a bit more about him is that you probably don't need to worry unless he is quite a drinker and playboy. There is actually a restaurant in Maadi called Far East that you might playfully find out from him if he is a regular there or not. If he indicates he knows the joint, WATCH OUT! It's typically full of Sudanese hookers any weekend. Let's hope he doesn't know it. There is only one bar like that, that I know of, over in Mohandiseen....but unfortunately can't remember the name of it, but it usually has German expats in it, I think. LOL In anycase you probably don't need to worry about that unless it is a part of his life that you would worry about in any city you were in.
In which case, if he is the sort of man you do need to worry about that being a problem with, why stay engaged to him? I would think he isn't the kind of guy worth chasing all the way to Egypt for. What do you really think?
Thanks for your comments, you are right and I'll consider it. But I'll hope my dream will coming ture.
Thanks all of my friends here. Hope can meet you soon.
Fox
I have just read quickly through all your talks about legal marriage.....I can tell you that you do not have to go to Cairo to get legally married - What is all this about? If you have a laywer for him and for you and then sign the papers then it will all solve itself out without having to go to Cairo to get legally married. They have the right court in Luxor to fix that - My husband and I were married in Luxor, he handed everything over to the laywer to arrange to get the right stamps, the right green lagal marriage certificate and everyhting else that comes with it. And he had that after a month or two - for sure my husband would have had trouble at the embassies with an Orfi marriage certificate as it does not count legally in Europe - so we would have been denied to be registrated in Europe as a married couple.
Just wanted to say this.....But yes of course girls should be aware of "bad" egyptians...because there are bad egyptians in Egypt, as well as there are bad Europeans in Europe...bad chinese in China ...and so on
Take care....
That of course depends on the individuals themselves and the families "traditions" and understanding of religion and accept of "foreigners"....
You can't generalize all Egyptians....that doesn't work....Yes some are as you ask and think and some are not...
My husbands family were not....
quote:(Jacqueline)
Originally posted by Jacqueline:
Many people in Egypt seem to be of the general opinion that european people have what they would regard as low sexual morality and that it is common for people in the west to live together and have children together without the benefit of marriage. They therefore probably dont care if foreign women are sleeping with their men without the benefit of marriage as long as it is not legal and as long as some of the money is coming their way. I think that this situation in Luxor is a disgraceful scandal which the authorities are happy to ignore possibly because they dont want to upset the rich middle aged woman coming to Luxor to have sex with young men or indeed the many men that go to Luxor also to have sex with young Egyptian men - for a price. These men should be prosecuted under egyptian law, they would be if they were having extramarital sex with egyptian women or homosexual sex with egyptian men. I even know women who are legally married in their own country and still contract an orfi marriage with one or more egyptian men thereby they are both commiting adultery which under Islam is punishable by death. Under egyptian law fornication can lead to six months in prison and adultery to three years in prison. These men get away with it because they are doing it to foreign women not egyptian women.If women go into these Orfi marriages knowing them for exactly what they are-an unofficial licence to have sex without any responsibilities then fair enough. What I object to is where the woman believes that she is really married and that the man has made a real and lasting commitment to their relationship. In any kind of relationship any kind of deception as to the participants true intentions is disgraceful. The reasons why this is ignored by the authorities are purely economic in my opinion-keep the tourists coming and keep them happy-who cares if there are illegitimate children and women whose hearts get broken-as long as the money keeps coming in to Egypt.
[This message has been edited by artemis_moon_8 (edited 12 January 2004).]
quote:.
Originally posted by deborah:
Hi, I've just returned from Luxor for the second time this year with my parents. On my first visit in Feb I met Jack, who I fell in love with. Its all been quite sudden but I am sure of my feelings for him, the months of waiting to see him again after meeting in Feb were agonising! When Jack asked me if I would marry him, I didnt hesitate, I said yes. We talked about when we would see each other again and he talked of a 'paper' that would allow us to be together without being hassled etc and would let us share a flat for a week when i came. Jack told me the paper cost £900.00, as I didn't have that sort of cash, he paid for it, money he had saved. I didn't understand why a peice of paper could cost so much! He explained that it wasn't a marriage licence or marriage certificate but it was just so we could be together. He told me that we have to go to Cairo to get married legally, which I know as I loked at their website. After reading your postings about some relationships between Egyptian men and English women,naturally I'm slightly concerened. I guess the paper that Jack was telling about, he showed me it when I returned last week, was green, is this orfi-marriage thing? He tried to translate it for me, he speaks excellent English. We brought each other our wedding rings while I was there and on my last day he took me to meet his mother and family at his home.Jack has asked me for no money - only the money for the flat which was £250.00 and seeing as he paid around £900.00 for the 'paper' I thought it was only fair to pay for the flat. We had a fantastic time, my mum and dad came too, they stayed in the hotel. I guess I just wanted some kind of assurance as you seem to know a lot about this orfi-marriage thing. please feel free to email me
charmed0001@aol.com
[This message has been edited by artemis_moon_8 (edited 12 January 2004).]
quote:The same thing happened to me,as to your friend,so...I ask you,How is she doing now,Ithank all you women and God for this site,to give women the strength,it gives knowing their not the only one,and also to know,their not stupid,just trusting,loving,with great hearts and feelins.thanks to every woman that pulled their pain from their hearts,just to help another woman,and know,i am working on writing most of what i suffered,only to help,even one woman,please do listen to these women,if you suspect it is happening to you,stay away from him for some time,just to be able to see clearly,he also could be secretly giving you drugs and brainwashing you,if you stil think its not happening to you,still give it time away from him,to see things clearly,if its truly love,that will never cause a ending,but a secure bonding truth.love,Diana
Originally posted by Shareen:
Hi Jacqueline
I'm glad you appreciated a frank and honest reply. Thank you.
Congratulations on your marriage. You are indeed lucky to have a successful marriage. And that goes no matter which country you live in or what nationality you have married. It takes hard work to make a marriage work, and sometimes even that isnt enough. And to be married to a man from a different culture is even harder. Nice one girl!
I too, am extremely saddened and angered by the abuse some women suffer at the hands of men. One of my particular friends who suffered at the hands of a man, now will not go back to Luxor just in case she sees him in the street. She is so afraid. Such a shame because her love of Egypt itself is so strong. Hopefully one day she will find the strength to return. That man physically and mentally abused her, as well as reducing her life savings zero. Here she is a strong woman, brought up her children by herself... and completely fell for the line he spun. I saw with my own eyes the evilness in that man. All I can say is...... I am so looking forward to bumping into him myself... Just for once, you may find me in the Kings Head or lurking in a corner in the Tut disco.... lmao.... beware!!!!
At the end of the day i have someone who told me last night that he was really jealous and wanted me for myself, well I am sorry only a man in love could say that, for God's sake I am 48 and fat what chance have I of attracting scores of nublie young men, but he thinks i could. Hurrah.
I totally believe in my Mahmoud, hey I could be wrong but only by testing the water can I find out. But I have kept on my property in England and I am renting it out so I have both an income and a refuge.
Jane i am really hoping to talk to you off this forum. If you could please find time to mail me on nefertari19572000@yahoo.co.uk i would be very thankful.
Shareen, thankyou for your frank and honest reply. It saddens and angers me when I hear of women being badly treated by men. Whilst like yourself I wasnt as naive as many women that I have met and heard about since my first trip to egypt, if I had known what I know now I doubt if I would ever have considered marriage to an egyptian and I would have missed out on the last two years which have been the happiest of my life. I absolutely adore my husband and could not even imagine what life would be like without him. I realise that I have been extremely lucky, he could have turned out to be rotten like many others - he still could - theres time yet I suppose. Why are men such bastards, is it something in their Y chromosome or what?
As for whether Orfi marriage between egyptians and non-egyptians is legal I have absolutely no doubt that it is of no legal value whatsover. One reason that I am so sure is that I have it on the authority of the egyptian embassy in london and the british embassy in cairo that the only way to get a legal marriage is at the ministry of justice in cairo and that orfi marriage is not legal at all either in egypt or the country of the non-egyptian spouse. However orfi marriage between two egyptians in some cases may have some legal value but never between egyptians and non-egyptians. The main reason for this is that the non-egyptian has to have a document from their embassy to prove that they are free to marry and this is not requested in orfi marriage so orfi marriage to non-egyptians can never be legal. I know of women who are legally married in england but have orfi marriages in egypt, how can this be legal, a woman can have only one husband at a time, why do lawyers not ask for proof of divorce if the woman has been married before? because they know it isnt legal anyway so they dont have to bother and they dont care, all they want is your 200LE or whatever they have managed to screw you for. Many orfi marriage papers to non-egyptians that I have seen also make no mention of a dowry, if there is no dowry there cannot be a legal marriage as this is essential in egypt under the marriage laws. Anyone who doubts this can easily verify this for themselves by contacting the egyptian embassy in their own country and their own embassy in egypt. The reason why lawyers get away with it is because if any couple planning to marry wishes to have a lawyers contract to have additional conditions added to the standard marriage contract drawn up by the mazoon at the marriage court, they can do so. This is the case whether both or only one of the parties are egyptian. Lawyers if challenged will simply claim that this is all they did and that it was not their responsibily or business whether the couple then used that paper to add to the paper at the marriage court or whether they even went to the marriage court. The lawyer will claim that he drew up the contract in good faith and that if the couple didnt go ahead with the marriage at the marriage court then this is not his problem, that he has done nothing wrong. The british embassy in cairo has a pro-forma marriage contract that they had prepared by an egptian female lawyer based in cairo and will give you a copy of it free of charge. This contract takes advantage of many recent changes in the marriage laws that can give women more rights if the man agrees to sign the contract. This contract has to be taken to a lawyer for both parties and witnesses to sign. This is not a marriage paper, it is a kind of pre-nuptial contract that is only enforcable if the marriage takes place and the contract is presented to the mazoon at the time of the marriage. You then take this to the ministry of justice, they will ask if you want to add anything to the standard contract, you then give them this other contract and they will add the conditions to the standard contract as long as the conditions are valid in law and agreed by both parties. So what you have from the lawyer is not a marriage contract but merely a pre-nuptial agreement that has no validity unless the marriage actually takes place. I can therefore assure you and anyone else that has this kind of paper that you are not married so you need have no fear of any legal repercussions regarding this paper.[/QUOTE]
quote:
Originally posted by Nefret-Iabet:
Some questions for all you knowledgeable people - the info is vital and thanks. If an orfi marriage does not work out, how does one end it? Just say goodbye or is there actually a legal process involved?
The only safe answer to this question is to take your marriage papers along to lawyer (one recommended by the British Embassy website would be a good choice) and ask him. The lawyer would give the correct answer for your set of papers, seeing what is written there and what court, if any, stamps there are and checking with the court.
The only legal knowledge we have on these forums is from watching reruns of LA Law.
------------------
Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor
To prevent yourself from being screwd...dont marry orfi way.If you're really married orfi way...just tear up the papers...end of story!
quote:
Originally posted by Natashiah:To prevent yourself from being screwd...dont marry orfi way.If you're really married orfi way...just tear up the papers...end of story!
If your Orfi marriage has been registered at the court therby stopping being orfi(which means unregistered) then you need a divorce. That is why it is best to get proper legal advice.
------------------
Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor