Egyptians are charged lower rates than tourists for hotels, plane tickets, and entrance fees into many tourist places, as this is subsidised for them by their government. To be charged Egyptian rates in the hotel you would have to have Egyptian residency, and you could only be get that if you were legally married. For that your “orfi marriage” papers would have to be registered in court to make it a legal civil marriage. This would take time to do and I don’t think it could be done in time to reduce your payments on this trip. However, if you do decide to do this “to get Egyptian rates” (which I don’t think is a good enough reason to get married!) you should realize that you will be legally married to the man and not able to get out of the relationship by tearing the paper up as with an orfi marriage, you would have to go to court to get divorced.
By the way, although the concept of an “orfi” marriage is being totally abused here, it should not be confused with the Shia/Shiite concept of a temporary marriage, which to them is legitimate.
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:
No this so called boyfriend of yours is out to protect himself.If the authorities know about you two living together as man and wife, the vice police will arrest him (in fact theoretically both of you), they will treat him just like any other prostitute.
So what these gigolos do is abuse the so called Orfi marriage. So that he can defend himself in case he gets caught by claiming that he is married to you.
Once he gets what he can from you, money, meals , accommodation, sex...he will just tear up that bit of paper and leave you with the consequencies:
sexually transmitted disease, pregnancy, heart ache, financial loss.
Now if that is what you want go ahead, enjoy it...otherwise read these threads:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/001653.html
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/002260.htmlwiggum
Doesnt this conflict a little with your post on another thread wiggum? Are you saying that this female is not a victim but is exploiting her boyfriend? Doesnt look that way to me, it sounds like she is the one being exploited.
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
if your boyfriend is highly educated as you claim and you are staying in a large city like alex or cairo, then he will know where to go to obtain a flat discreetly so that there's no need for this.
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
where in Egypt are you staying?if your boyfriend is highly educated as you claim and you are staying in a large city like alex or cairo, then he will know where to go to obtain a flat discreetly so that there's no need for this.
ata, this is also true. Cairo is a large
city and if you will be staying there and
your b/f is educated he will know how to rent a place discreetly as ExptinCAI said.
Don't be scared to visit Egypt. The ppl are very friendly. Its just illegal in this Islamic country for a man & women to openly
spend the night with one another without
being married....
I'm curious and ask because I may have been in a situation where I could potentially have fallen afoul of the law. My g/f & I were planning to get married in Egypt but as that wouldn't have happened until later in our trip, then technically we'd be an unmarried couple staying/travelling together. And as such, we were going to get fake wedding rings to wear until that time just to avoid any hassle. Would that have been necessary for us?
As it is, we decided to do the formalities before we leave - too much hassle and runnning around in Cairo when we could be doing touristy things - so it won't be an issue. But could it have been?
The orfi paper is a paper that allows you two to date and be together as you would anywhere else in Europe or in many other countries. Just don't expect anything more of it.
You can date and go out and live even sleep together with anybody you want in Europe and many other countries without it beeing anybody else's problem than yours but in Egypt it is not possible.So there you have to be married to be able to stay together so the orfi papre is a leagal way to stay together but it is not a validated marriage.
I deal with Customer Relations for a major tour operator and think I had better tell you that 'Orfi' paper will NOT be acceptable to the Hotels.
We had a very similar case just recently where the couple were turned away from the hotel.
To be able to book into a hotel, as has already been advised, your papers have to be stamped by the courts and totally legal.
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
Ata you just need to make an ORFI contract with a lawyer then you will be able to rent a flat in Sharm. If you are going direct to Sharm you can see a lawyer there. It is very unlikely you can stay at a hotel with this contract but there are some nice places in Sharm where you can rent a flat with same facilities as hotels.
Your boyfriend will be protected by the contract and it is not a full commitment to marriage..you can tear it up anytime.
regards
if u cant stay together in a hotel so just take an apartment together, u can rent one and stay together all the time!so i rent our apartment in heliopolis just if u will visit cairo and i think its easy to find in sharm apartments too 4 rent.
greetings and good luck
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
This lady has visited Egypt before; she says she knows it's no problem about staying together in a city, it's only the resort areas she's unsure about.
She's not a grandma lookin' out for some resort meat. She's got an egyptian boyfriend who doesn't live in the resort town, but they want to vacation at a resort together.
The answer is simply that (1) hotels require a legitimate marriage certificate if one of the two is an Egyptian nationality. They do not if both are foreigners (but if they're not-western (lebanese/syrian for example) it will vary with hotels sometimes.
(2) you can rent a private flat. Unless you're a waiter/shop keeper who also LIVES in the resort town (and the tourist police sees you with a new girlfriend staying in yet another flat every few week on a regular basis) - chances are you can probably rent a private flat in Sharm without any stupid orfi papers. Again, I have to stress if your boyfriend is of a certain class and not local, he's not going to get hassled by the local tourism police the way a local waiter would.
I would suggest if you're coming in summer, rent a place in Agamy and skip all this orfi nonsense. Everyone goes to the North Coast anyway in the summer.
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
Orfi costs 200le max. Think of it more as an official engagement, rather than a marriage.
My (now legal) husband and i had this problem in Cairo when we were there to do the Embassy/Misery of Justice marriage and we werent allowed to share a room at the hotel until we had a civil certificate because of police raids. We were informed of this fact whilst the receptionist smoked hashish. ?????
quote:
Originally posted by ata:
a notary legalized paper to prove we are married, just for hotel purposes, to charge me as an egyptian! Do you think it works?
Hi folks, am just back from a month in Sharm on a made-at-lawyer's paper with my poor gigolo low-paid waiter boy-friend, just to remind you. And you know what? It was pure bliss and heaven :DDDD or maybe even better, it felt like something very normal nice that could continue and continue and need not ever end... but OK it should be good and proper to get some distance in between, for comparison purposes and for knowing how "life without him/them (=rest of Egyptians)" feels :D.
I did not even need do ANYTHING for this lawyer's paper which had both our photos and both our signatures but in the end I forgot to have him read to me what it said :)). I just faxed him copy of my passport and posted a photo and he got it all waiting for me when I arrived. We stayed at Delta Sharm, much nicer than photos on website suggest, like hotel, even breakfast included for those who wish, but more privacy and more room. 6 nice pools, several restaurants, supermarkets, home delivery (I am still not accustomed to so I mostly ran to get everything myself, so embarrassing for the dear egyptians :). The rates we got were 200/350 LE per night or alternatively 3000 LE per month. He paid for the first week per day, then it was clear we do OK together so I paid for a month more. Was fair, I think, because both we gave all free money we had, although he gave much more of course, in ratio to income, so very dear of him. And yes, they asked for the lawyer's paper and both our IDs, and it was OK. Delta is also great because so many mixed couples stay there, more or less married, that nobody really cares any more. Many have really established families, staying at Delta with wives and/or children when they come to visit, and in employer's accommodations during rest of time.
No one bothered to ask us anything or for any paper in any other place in or around Sharm during all that time, so I guess time is moving forward just as quickly in Egypt, or at least Sinai, as it does in the rest of world.
Did I say already it felt like heaven? Despite he's onlu had sex twice all his life, all else learned "from TV" so sweet, ah? he must be a genius them, because I think it took me the first 10 years to get anywhere near enjoyment. Also, he is caring, understanding, sympathetic EVEN when I behave bad, because I have seen so many stupid men in life that I am not a particularly patient person any more I am sorry to say (but maybe will become one again, if spend more time with him :). So in many ways he seems much wiser than the wisest men this side of the Mediterranean I've met. The only complaint I have is that he is overly taken with my physical charms and much less with my "inner beauty" but anyway physical charm is a good way of keeping a man interested (right, guys?) while other revelations help keep life interesting for some longer time then maybe :DDDD. Anyway, each time when I closed TV and forced him talk with me, I got all talking that I missed and consequently all feeling that I missed (bec. for me sexuality is somehow a totally brain thing, I may like or not like a person's appearance, but it is minds that drive me crazy) So I am not crazy after him yet, but have good perspectives of becoming, little by little :DDD. At least I hope so, because I really really like him, his way of thinking, what he has been saying about his family etc. And he is christian, meaning he is supposed to marry only once per life, so romantic isn't it? and what a challenge! Feels kind of brave, esp. in today's consumer society, everyone hurrying to replace any model that seems to lack any features of the ideal mate.
So-- you cannot make rules about men in Egypt or even men in Sharm or Hurghada for the others, because we all just get what we've earned. And some of us, magically, sometimes, have earned to be loved and to love back, whatever the rest of circumstances.
Anything else I should add, for the sake of greater triumph??? :P
Love!
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 11 April 2005).] (I took all Orfis out acc. to dear Wiggie's remark below, so that dear muslim souls here would not feel disturbed or anything by a pagan soul forcing into their realm, all innocently of course but still :)).
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 11 April 2005).]
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:
That really surprises me.
Let me get this right please
Your boyfriend is Christian, and you married him orfi ?
My mistake, wiggie :). I thought thi slawyer's paper IS the Orfi, somehow there is a total confusion what the orfi is or what the paper is maybe because purpose is same :))??? So call it what you want or what is more proper, instead & sorry for coming anywhere near the muslim realm!!!
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
would be something like "This tourist girl here that we have never seen or met in person but still she has kindly sent her data and signed the paper, seems to be of full and sound mind, and still she has agreed to learn to know this poor gigolo Egypt guy more intimately with very serious intentions (or with possible future prospect of marrying him but this one I am not so sure of that they say there), and therefore he is allowed to be found in immediate physical nearness to her and it should not be classified as sexual or other harrassment of a tourist woman by anyone legally entitled to have any interest in this matter."
Uh???
quote:
Originally posted by nevermind:
My own second best interpretation (1st being: "This f...g is official and Government protected. /signatures of competent persons/", but there was much more text on paper)would be something like "This tourist girl here that we have never seen or met in person but still she has kindly sent her data and signed the paper, seems to be of full and sound mind, and still she has agreed to learn to know this poor gigolo Egypt guy more intimately with very serious intentions (or with possible future prospect of marrying him but this one I am not so sure of that they say there), and therefore he is allowed to be found in immediate physical nearness to her and it should not be classified as sexual or other harrassment of a tourist woman by anyone legally entitled to have any interest in this matter."
Uh???
Lol, thats the best translation I have ever read!! Nice one!!
Wiggum, unfortunately things must have changed since you left Egypt, Christians do marry Orfi now, at least they have the same piece of paper that the muslims have, and they may have just as many foreign Orfi wives. They often have an egyptian wife at the same time. Progress or what?
And there appear to be different "Orfi" papers, registered at court requiring a court divorce, or not registered at court requiring a rapid sleight of hand to tear the paper up. It all seems to depend on the guy and what he really wants out of the foreigner.
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:I am approaching 60 , bald , fat, bum is not very firm any more, snore loudly, can hardly manage "it" ,(may be hardly is the wrong choice of word).....any body interested...email me at twilight@oldfolkshome.com
I do like the translation though
wiggum
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:I am approaching 60 , bald , fat, bum is not very firm any more, snore loudly, can hardly manage "it" ,(may be hardly is the wrong choice of word).....any body interested...email me at twilight@oldfolkshome.com
I do like the translation though
wiggum
You sound like my perfect man!!! 
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Abuturab:
Hi all i never heard about this orfi business where did it come from prophet, ulema or what? what doews it let u do and how is it diiferent from marriage and shia muta marriageregards
Hi Abuturab!
The name "Orfi" is based on the Arabic word 'urf meaning local custom or practice, and in Islamic law these are allowed as long as they don't clash with any aspect of the Quran, Sunnah, or other agreed sources of Islamic law.
You will have to wait for an Egyptian to tell you its roots here in Egypt, although I understand that there are similar types of arrangments that are equally abused in other places in North Africa too.
The way it is practiced here does not usually conform to the Islamic requirements of an offer and an acceptance between a man and the woman's legal guardian (wali), nor does it always have two eligible witnesses, a delcared dowry (mahr), and it is not always made public. Others have described how it can be used and its legal standing in an Egyptian court is zero and overseas too. Although one woman did say on ES once that an Orfi contract had been used against her as evidence of a bigamy in a divorce case in Europe, and the court wouldn't accept it had no value, as it is written in the form of a contract.
It differs from the Shia temporary marriage (mut'a) in that the length of duration of the contract is not declared at the beginning. Althought there may be other aspects to as I am not so familiar with Shia law.
And yes, a christian man could marry a muslim wife, unfortunately, the muslim lady couldnt marry him. Poor bugger... he just couldnt win could he?
Oh, and can you give your email again.... I dont go to Hurghada, but I may be interested in your offer..... particularly the "hardly" bit....
quote:
Originally posted by ata:
Hi all, pls, I need more info about following..I have a boyfriend in Egypt, and we planned to see /again/ this year and to stay at a hotel together. He told me we can make a notary legalized paper to prove we are married, just for hotel purposes, to charge me as an egyptian! Do you think it works? Pls, advise!
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
But about men manipulating to get their way... actually it must be all human beings, men or women, ultimately always finding a way to do exactly as they want. Which is why any religious or administrative rules simply make no sense if they try work against human nature.
And if yu have been away from Egypt for so long (I wonder, where?) you should be aware that the rest of the world really does not need government warrants when they simply want be together with someone they like plus have the liberty of deciding in private whether they also want any sex or not. Without official announcement required for it. So this kind of paperwork really is of no interest to "Western women", but only to protect our egyptian male friends from your own government. Still, I am happy they have found a solution like that, relatively simple to all involved. :)
Love!
I do not think we paid the "egyptian" price, paper or no paper, but then we did not exactly ask for it either.
Have fun and enjoy the magic of Egypt. I am sure you will be back there again and again. 
,dont take risk with hotels and take apartment,i saw that many guys on here advicedu this,and i think they are right!
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:
The good Lord at the turn of the millennium granted an audience to world leaders, and granted each a question.
President Bush asked: Lord will we see an end to this economic doom and gloom?
The Lord said: Yes but not in YOUR life time.
President Puten asked: Lord will we see a revival of the might of the old Soviet Union
The Lord said: Yes but not YOUR life time.The leaders of the middle east (as one for change!!), asked : Lord will we ever see peace in the Middle East.
The Lord said: Yes but not in MY life time.
ROFL
)) Yes, u r sooo right! Last year when I was in Alex I felt like in ZOO!!! Staring is too light word... Pls, give me yr email, or write me to vanyaes@yahoo.com. You are the first one who exactly knows how I feel! Taka se nujdaq ot malko pove4e informaciq. Ot vsi4ko napisano v tozi forum, ve4e neznam kakvo da pravq!
quote:
Originally posted by Karah_Mia:
Ata, nothing wrong with ORFI marriage if both of you know it is only a way of obeying the law while eating your cake too.
Completely agree with you Karah!!
quote:
Originally posted by Shareen:
Completely agree with you Karah!!
Thanks Shareen. Glad there are more 'immorality fighters' out there other than myself.
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:
Wow my luck has changed..Just wait until I put my false teeth in, so I can speak properly.
Oh where are those damn chrutches...and who stole my hernia truss...
Coming out darling as soon as I can find my glasses...:-)) ;-0)
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 12 April 2005).]
Ya girls.... I'll get my coat... I've pulled!!! I'm waiting Wiggy....pen in hand!!
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:
SamiaPen in hand ?..Got you, you wicked girl,,you want me to write my will first..don't you?
wiggum
I suppose even a pencil will do for an orfi paper??
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:
OK.... I am all yours, then we can rub off the pencil orfi paper,but, after how long?.. I will settle for 25 years......Damn !!, if I put a time limit , it becomes Muta not Orfi, can't win :P
wiggum
Ya Wiggy.. 25 looks good to me.. its how many years I was with my ex before he started screwing my best friend.. also I divorced on my 25th anniversary.. and my daughters 25!! its my lucky number!! An Orfi marriage made in heaven!!!
he will know where to go to obtain a flat discreetly so that there's no need for this.
I agree with this. Just rent a flat Ata, nobody gives a damn about anybody in big cities.
By the way hotel staff could be nasty at times. My Egyptian friend was looked at as a pros.every time walks through the reception with herBritish husband of 15 years and her two little girls.
They still did not believe she was his wife. She insistsin carrying her Egyptian passport every time she goes home( Egypt ).
Still in our honey moon my husband and I stayed at a big hotel in Cairo.Still holding my Egyptian passport, the hotel staff gave me the dirty look every time I pass by.
My husband tried to talk nicely to them to start with but in vain.!
then used the typical British weapon (I will call the British embassy thing).
It was only when my brother came to see me , that they smoothed and apologised to us.
Apparently my brother- due to the nature his job- is known to them.
[This message has been edited by salama (edited 17 April 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Samia:
Ya Wiggy.. 25 looks good to me.. its how many years I was with my ex before he started screwing my best friend.. also I divorced on my 25th anniversary.. and my daughters 25!! its my lucky number!! An Orfi marriage made in heaven!!!
Samia, Wig, BIG CONGRATS!!!!!! I hope your blissful union conceived on ES will blossom into true happiness and (at least virtual...LOL) love FOREVER.
quote:
Originally posted by Karah_Mia:
Samia, Wig, BIG CONGRATS!!!!!! I hope your blissful union conceived on ES will blossom into true happiness and (at least virtual...LOL) love FOREVER.
Ya thanks Karah...it's ok.. I haven't sent him a photo of my face yet!!!
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by wiggum:
WooooowiiiiiiiiiiiiBack to you my darling Samia, what is your favourite breakfast ?
wiggum
Ya Wiggy.. my favourite breakfast??? Hmmmm.. In the best Egyptian tradition..... FOOL!!!
Hope its yours too!!!
[This message has been edited by wiggum (edited 08 May 2005).]
I hope this was helpful.
DM
a nice name for a meal....
Love!!! :)