) but it reminded me where I was again. And I didn't wanted to get my friend in any kind of trouble so we left to outside again. It is wonderful to be in love. to be in trouble, however, is not nice.
Learning about your beloved's culture is one of main essentials for a successful relation.
Your Egyptian moslem lady should know that very well.
My British husband and I did not have this ache, as we both decided that he will convert prior to seeing my family.
Once, it happened, the base was already lined for the next step ( knowing each other away from the net business ) before you both get any serious ( really serious ).
Why do not you just go to Egypt, meet your lady face to face, spend time with each other ( but not deeply, for her sake ) then decide what to do next.
* There are tw things you can not do with a Moslem woman:
1- Having sex out of the wedlock.
2- Marrying her as a non moslem.
Once you have passed your first test, I do not believe it will then be difficult on her family to accept you.
Good luck, & enjoy Egypt and her people.
[This message has been edited by salama (edited 14 May 2005).]
Just another question: No nice and interesting girls around in your neighborhood? Its much easier you know.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 14 May 2005).]
Salama said it perfectly: no sex (she can't share your room at the hotel anyway) and no marriage as long as you are not a Muslim. Any muslim girl knows that, so she knows from the beginning she's playing with fire.
Did she talk to you about Islam, did she teach you a few things about it? You have been knowing her for three years so I think you had time to learn a little about Islam.
As Salama says, take your time, meet the girl, and I am sure you will know what to do when you come back to the US, things will be clearer.
If the family really knows about you, they will never let you see her while you are there, she will have to lie all the time to date you.
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 14 May 2005).]
Just in case you do not, we have a culture. One that differentiate between a girl and a woman.…!
No, her family is very obviously not a lax, never, otherwise they would hitch the girl up, and goodbye baby.
I bet in your honour that the first question they ask if the guy is a moslem?
To bunk in an Egyptian hotel needs a good deal of tricks, so they are not seen together in one room, or even getting out or entering a hotel together.
The girl will get married sooner or later, she will be discovered and blamed to the rest of her life. You cannot get away with these things, Never.
I advise the man to convert, which takes him a few minutes of his life. then the relationship between him and the creator is not our business, and then marry his girl and fly away.
It is the girl who will loose her family, unless a great effort takes place at the earliest stage.
Never, if you wish to piss me off, please do choose the right place.
[This message has been edited by salama (edited 14 May 2005).]
She will be doing the same and if she's not, then take a closer look at her and question that, because that should be 2nd nature to her. Western relations etc are totally doable in Egypt, but one always puts on a facade for the hotel staff.
That said, it never fails to amaze me how two people who only type to each other manage to "fall in love." Whatever to that. But add in a different culture and now you're just in dream land. I would strongly suggest you rethink your perspective on this visit and instead of thinking whether or not there's chemistry between you (BEFORE you jump to the fiance thing!)... go over there as a friend and dip your toe in the proverbial waters.
All the stuff about visas that is said about the men here DOES also apply to women too.
Good luck, you're in for a culture shock...but it can still be a positive experience and it doesn't mean you won't have a happy ending.
quote:
Originally posted by salama:
Never, if you wish to piss me off, please do choose the right place.
My culture does not encourage urination on the boards nor in forums.
Anyway, can't they do an Orfi also?? Plus, Cairo is a big city and many have mentioned that you can get away with much more there than in any small conservative place? Although it is easier of course when the man is egyptian, girl is white, because the chances that a white man is muslim or egyptian girl is not, are probably too small to even consider.
Anyway, please give advice to the serious young person here, the ones who live there and know of things, and stop playing god. Give them the optins, let THEM decide how they spend their sinful lives - happily or unhappily. Be friends, not judges.
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 14 May 2005).]
Well, we went to his room after I put the kids to bed (my husband was watching them) and talked a little and sometime then my friend received a phone call and was asked what was going on, why he would have a foreign female tourist up in his room.
Little then we realized that a cleaning guy saw us entering his room and also we left the curtains open as we didn't have anything to hide.
So just to give you an idea of how things are in Egypt. I was very upset about the incident (and let my husband call up the reception immediately ) but it reminded me where I was again. And I didn't wanted to get my friend in any kind of trouble so we left to outside again.
I said this couple of times here on this board but its true: Everything has eyes and ears in Egypt, even the doors and the walls......
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 14 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
All I wanted to know is can we be together and enjoy each others company in a public setting without judgement.
You can have a coffee with her somewhere but thats about it - its as simple as that.
I agree with other posters you should go and meet her in person if the picture of what you have of her is matching the reality and you really want to push forward for marriage.
Now the religion thing is another issue. Atheists are able to convert to a religion, usually when something life-changing happened to them or when they become older. You need to convert to Islam if you want to marry her - how you will practice it is another issue. You both will have to figure it out.
I hope everything will turn out great for you and your Egyptian woman, good luck!
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 14 May 2005).]
Basically if this woman agrees to marry you she is committing a sin as a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man by Islamic law, as you know. If you did marry it would make your marriage unrecognized under her religion, she would be living in sin, and any children would be considered illegitimate. If she has already lost her family through her continuation of her relationship with you, do you still want to put her though that as well? She obviously has some Islamic sensibilities as you say that she doesn’t want sex before marriage; but actually it is not only sex itself that is forbidden, so is being alone with a man without a chaperone in a private place and any type of physical contact, no matter what your long term intentions are. You did ask what the rules were!
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Basically if this woman agrees to marry you she is committing a sin as a Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man by Islamic law, as you know.
So what will/can happen, realistically and in this world, if she will choose to live in this "sin" of love?
Am a bit disappointed that islam is underestimating a woman's ability and power in directing a man in basically any direction she wishes and thus maybe even towards islam or at least more halal (or haram? one of these i think) living? Many souls going lost to god this way...
Love!!!
Realistically, in this world the marriage will not be accepted by practicing Muslims and she will be treated as anyone would be who has chosen to break one of the Muslim laws and is being open about it, as people in the West used to be treated by their society when they had stricter moral conventions about this. She will also not be able to get married in Egypt or have her marriage recognized by an Islamic authority.
I am sure Allah will cope with your disappointment over His decisions and will have calculated for that lost opportunity when He made the rules!
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
but actually it is not only sex itself that is forbidden, so is being alone with a man without a chaperone in a private place and any type of physical contact, no matter what your long term intentions are. B]
So would this also apply if I was a Muslim man? Does a Muslim man have to be chaperoned and is forbidden to make any type of Physical contact with Muslim women?
Besides If i'm seen alone with her while I'm there, how would anyone know that she's Egyptian. Why wouldn't they think we are both tourist? She could be mistaken for an Italian girl.
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 14 May 2005).]
You appear to truly love your girl. What is holding you from converting, you already have read Islamic book .. go ahead before it is too late.
Marry girl before God and people. Then make peace with her family.
You will better once you done the right thing
Yes, as the other imposter ( ? ) said, you can walk about and have innocent fun, eat and drink and talk in public, but there will be no need taking her to a hotel.
Is not great to keep her fresh,for later?
[This message has been edited by salama (edited 14 May 2005).]
The rules are the same for Muslim men as for Muslim women, how could it be otherwise? Basically neither a Muslim man or a Muslim woman are allowed any sexual contact or be alone with any one of the opposite sex until after marriage, and no physical contact either, unless the person happens to be a close blood relative, e.g. their mother, sister, grandmother, and a few others listed in the Qur'an. I am not saying that everyone adheres to all the rules, as in any other society, but if Muslims break the rules they risk the consequences in this world or the Hereafter.
As to whether people will know that she is Egyptian, even if people physically look like they could be from another country, there are tell-tale signs like the way someone dresses, walk, sits, holds themselves, moves their hands that give an indication of where they come from, and that is all before they open their mouth to speak.
From what I hear hotel staff are quite astute at differentiating between locals and tourists and wouldn’t hesitate to ask for proof of identity as its illegal for a local to be in a hotel room with someone they are not married to.
I'm telling you ALL THE TIME that human nature never completely binds to rules that are essentially unnatural to it, and muslims are just as human as the rest of us, is my true belief. So why you wish to keep exorciating yourselves this way, is a compete mysterium to me.
The Issue is, deep inside my inner beliefs would conflict with some of the rules of Islam. I wouldn't feel true to it or myself. There are some basic human rights and choices that would be taken away from me, and I believe woman should have all the same rights and respect as men.
i am an Egyptian woman who is married to a British convert, and like me 1000's of moslem women here in the UK plus these women who are converting every day.
Do you really think these women are stupid enough to convert to Islam with the knowledge that their human rights are taken away?
Here goes again, a moslem woman has more rights than a woman of any other faith on earth. My money that given to me or I made is my own, my husband money and properties are as much as his are also mine and the household. I may choose to share all or some of my money with him. I may not.… This is my faith.
Education and work are not luxury for a moslem person (man or a woman) they are essential in the Islamic faith. indeed the first word in the Holy Quran is LEARN.
In Islam, a man and a woman have different duties matching perfectly our physical and mental abilities and differences.
What you hear in the west springs from the western Islmophobia that the west is sickened with.
gobi79harry, I completely agree with you, you should not convert to Islam for the sake of marriage, unless you are completely convinced that it is the right thing for you; it is not something to be undertaken lightly. But as salama says, the view that many westerners are given about women’s position in Islam is a biased one, and many women are coming to Islam because they see that it offers them more respect and dignity than the western concepts of womanhood. Try to read more about this issue from different perspectives, not just the western/negative ones to get a fuller picture.
However, please be aware that if in the end you still have to be true to yourself and not accept Islam, should you really be asking the woman you claim to love in a position where she will be doing something that is against her belief system.
quote:
Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]In Islam, a man and a woman have different duties matching perfectly our physical and mental abilities and differences.
What you hear in the west springs from the western Islmophobia that the west is sickened with.
There is a lot of islamophobia indeed, or rather, there is a lot of any kind of phobia I think peole get some kind of kick from having a pet phobia so they are always eager to have something .
But, salama, you are yourself the very best example of what islam does with women--it makes you believe men and women are different physically AND, as you say, mentally.
I even share this view in that i also believe that men as a rule are physically stronger while women as a rule are mentally more capable (it can be noticed from the way we instinctively adapt much more easily than men, we learn by seeing and listening, which men never do, they need to be specifically trained to understanding)
AND since the world is giving more and more physical work over to machines, the humans are moving upwards all the time to more mental tasks and jobs and thus the future is all about women and our capacities to lead and manage the world. Now how has islam prepares you, salama, to these tasks? Do you even have right to participate in decisions about your own country, e.g. by becoming a politician, or even giving a vote???
P.S. it is pure coincidence i am sure that it is you s, who so often voices my pet enemy issues probably because you so deeply believe in what you believe. Nothing personal here, my word.
Second thing. Many muslim girls who will not have sex before marriage do everything but the clinical definition of intercourse and are far from inexperienced. But they would swear to their grave that they are pure virgins simply because they've stopped at V penetration.
So as you can see, there are many shades of grey between the black and white but there's no way for us advise you about it. It depends not only on her individual personality but where she's from, how she was raised, class system, etc.
I wouldn't worry about Islam and trying to convert until you actually meet this woman, have a big fight with her that will shatter the rose-colored glasses...and still think she's the one for you.
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
The hotel would ask to see her ID and that would show her religion. If people want to break the rules, they can do it, of course they can, but this man is asking what the rules and social conventions are.
But religion on ID... that's pretty strong in a country where people also treat you based on your religion. Never in my life, living in my country here, have i had reason to ponder how big things freedom to freely decide about yourself, and safety of person, really are. Though we efficiently spoil the heaven by a lot of small bickering and bad character but anyway 
And orfi is exactly a kind of "social convention" after all?, its not completely holy but is is still a middleway. And I am not hinting they NEED to sleep with each other or anything, and besides you don't even plan such things or do you? Let me at least hope, dear men, that not always, OK? That sometimes it is also a pure natural getting-carried-away-by-your-senses thing, what developes when you meet in person?
I just want to discuss all possibilities that are in theory or practice available to any such mixed couples. This is why the ExptinCAI type of explanations are the best kind on this forum--they do not try describe things the way people wish things were (Koran then would be a better source) they describe reality.
[This message has been edited by nevermind (edited 15 May 2005).]
Sorry but her family wouldn't abandon her EVER because she's fallen in love with some guy on the internet.
If they thought she was losing it, they'd unplug her computer and pressure her into marrying a nice muslim egyptian boy FULL STOP. They wouldn't abandon her. Especially when you're so far away and you two never met! They'd look at it as her being a silly girl in puppy love and dismiss it.
Again, I can't stress that enough because the way you wrote it, it doesn't sound right.
[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 15 May 2005).]
Salama wont to convert us all if she could she don't care if u be a hypocrite muslim like her.Aslong u muslim she like numbers.
Another thing is "your love" are maybe circumced so it easy for her to wait for sex until married (pasport money out of powerty)As Salama alredy toll u the first rules they liek -MONEY
salama say:
My money that given to me or I made is my own, my husband money and properties are as much as his are also mine and the household. I may choose to share all or some of my money with him. I may not.… This is my faith
yes faith money ha-ha-ha this is the only islam rules u liek
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
PS- I really do not buy that her family abandoned her and that 'you're all she's got.' And here you come the white knight waving the visa in hand to the rescue.What I have told you about her abandonment is true. Who do you think has been paying her rent and giving her money for food. Me! Not saying that it's been every month, but the unemployment in Egypt has not helped.
[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 15 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by RaniaMe (edited 12 June 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
PS- I really do not buy that her family abandoned her and that 'you're all she's got.'
because the way you wrote it, it doesn't sound right.[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 15 May 2005).]
I agree completely with expt!!!
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
PS- I really do not buy that her family abandoned her and that 'you're all she's got.' And here you come the white knight waving the visa in hand to the rescue.Sorry but her family wouldn't abandon her EVER because she's fallen in love with some guy on the internet.
If they thought she was losing it, they'd unplug her computer and pressure her into marrying a nice muslim egyptian boy FULL STOP. They wouldn't abandon her. Especially when you're so far away and you two never met! They'd look at it as her being a silly girl in puppy love and dismiss it.
Again, I can't stress that enough because the way you wrote it, it doesn't sound right.
[This message has been edited by ExptinCAI (edited 15 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
What I have told you about her abandonment is true. Who do you think has been paying her rent and giving her money for food. Me! Not saying that it's been every month, but the unemployment in Egypt has not helped.
quote:
Originally posted by RaniaMe:
An Egyptian girl living alone?
Which social class does she belong to?
Or rather which fairy tale does she belong to?
Do we have a rare case of an Egyptian girl ripping of a Western man? Or is this even a girl or someone using an internet personality? GB you have been had for a mug, the kind of girl you are describing doesn’t exist in Egyptian society.
Single girls living on their own. Muslim girls that have internet romances with non Muslim men. She is unemployed but has good enough English to have a relationship with you. None of this makes any sense to me.
Regarding some of your other posts.
The reason a Muslim girl can only marry a Muslim man is because children take the religion of the father. A Muslim man can marry a ‘woman of the book’ Jew, Christian or Muslim and the children would be Muslims and belong to the father. Nothing to do with her “converting to your ways”
As the others have said Islam gives women more rights rather than take them away.
.
In three years of discussion you have never covered these points, and you know nothing about her culture, seems to me that not very much was said in those three years, certainly anything of any depth.
Like I said I don’t think this woman is real, I think if you arrived in Cairo she wouldn’t turn up at the meeting. How much money have you sent her so far?
I knew a really nice guy who lived in Egypt (foreigner) and this woman latched on to him. She was coptic and you could not imagine the stupid stories she would tell him with tears in her eyes (unbelievable tales of how racist muslims were against her, trying to get her fired, girls beating her up bcs she wore make up on ramadam...just the most idiotic things you could imagine). But she was such a good actress and really knew how to push his guilt buttons (how can a man refuse a crying woman who tells him why are you making me beg...this is nothing for you, it's the price of few pizzas from maison thomas!)
Now someone mentioned the children have to follow the fathers choice of religion. That is completely not true. When I so support freedom of choice , why would I say "hey kids you must believe what daddy thinks is right" B.S. They are their own beings, I don't care what they choose to believe , it's their choice not mine. If my kids wanted to be buddist it wouldn't bother me one bit. It doesn't have to be the way you say it is people. Everyone has choice. It's your lives. Live it how you please , cause it's over so fast. oops , there it is ... it's gone.. did you get everything done... are you full- filled.. ahhhh too late. Because in the end people we all die. But how we live and if we enjoyed the life we have been given.. is all that really matters.
Now onto rights.
I'm not an expert in this matter, seeing i'm not a muslim and i am not coming off thinking I know everything. But for one , and this is not a big deal , BUT IT IS A CHOICE that can no longer be partaken in is your choice if you would like to have an alcoholic beverage or not. I don't really care much for alcohol but it's the principle of the thing. I for one don't like anyone telling me what I can and can not do. Even if like i said don't really even care. It's my basic human right of choice. And you should be able to take it as far as you want (within reason of not hurting others)
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 15 May 2005).]
i even know couples from other middle eastern countries who came as expats to cairo (she muslim, he christian) and her new 'friends' tried to tell her she will go to hell and her child is a bastard.
so while we may not know your circumstances - you don't know egypt. don't be so quick to judge the various opinions people write here. believe it or not, as varied as it is, it's all just various degrees of one country. you're right - we don't know you - hence the reason the postings here are so varied.
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 15 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by shannierae (edited 15 May 2005).]
if its all a scam, wouldn't you rather find that out now, before you spend more on this person or a trip to nowhere?
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 16 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited 16 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I'm not trying to be stubborn about it, and I'm not acting like "I don't want to be Muslim just because..." That's not the issue at all. Infact I have even thought about it. The only reason why I would convert , would be for her, because I love her so very much. The Issue is, deep inside my inner beliefs would conflict with some of the rules of Islam. I wouldn't feel true to it or myself. There are some basic human rights and choices that would be taken away from me, and I believe woman should have all the same rights and respect as men. I haven't seen that in Islam. I have not completely made up my mind on the subject but for now this is how I feel.
truly i know you know nothing of islam....since reading a few books doesnt give u a sound insight to the religion..
Societies..such as epyt and Religion such as Islam...are two differnet entities....
The key reason is logical...you absolutely need no understanding of islam or for that matter any religions....
Biologically...man is not = women......fact 1
psycologically females are the "emotional" sex.... fact 2
ect..ect//////
logic...women in all modern societies are socially unequal to there male counterparts..
In the context of religion now....
Islam states
socially females=males....
As modern science is consistant with Islam
physically....biologically....psycologically
However you prove a greater threat....Since you have no Belief of a Higher being...
which tips the scale
spirtually you would damage her already ill faith..
mixing fire with canol oil...perfect for a bomb fire....
Since as any sound individual knows...you have a direct influence on the other indvidual...which is unfortunately a female
this comes into a sociological context where influence in this relationship is not balanced ...as balance in any ancient and modern society is key...
when it comes to believers vs non believers..
it comes back to psyc
Since a family is a vital structure in society....
One that is confused....can Damage he structure whereby ...can indirectly lead to medical and othere illness indirectly...depression stress ect. ect.
Islam is the only religion in the entire world...that does not segregate or colorist...
The only religion where blacks=white=arabs=colored ect...
in the eyes of a sing higher being,,god,,male and females are equivalent in judgement....
Since your reasons are not legit...
you want t meet her to kiss cuddle ect a "real" relationship...
If you understand the basics of any religion there is good and evil..
in islam its manifested as good God and any relations with him and Evil the devil
Since kissing cuddling and padding leads to you no what thats associated with evil...why you ask
Since the person you are intimate..kissing cuddling..is intimacy..is Not in the Eyes of God...Yours...the makes complete sense in the context of Islam...
That is a reason why pubicint men and pubicint women are not allowed to be in the company of each other alone...As the "devil whispers"...
im not going to go on since its clear where i stand ....
Advise......
Analyize the true legitamacy of your pilgrimage to Egpyt.....before you jump on the next flight.....
Quote
Atheist dont believe in G-o-d....
God doesnt believe in Atheist!!!
LOL
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
Well, I see your point. However I won't be having my children in Egypt. I will be in the United States. And as far as my children being bastards that are going to hell. That's only the religious veiw of the matter. Is there a hell, or does all matter return to nothing from wence we came? Who knows? We'll see at the last moment won't we. but in the end , it doesn't matter who is right and who is wrong. Just be thankful you had a chance to live.[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 15 May 2005).]
Amazing ...I overlooked this Quote...
Since i Proved proof ...unfortunately youre offspring are going to be caught between the cross fire....
Fortunately Americas....are integrate Christianisty and State together.... The only way you may be togther is to go throught a COMMONN LAW MARRIAGE...lol
Since MARRIAGE is a UNION....which predates any modern religion.....is directly asscociated with pre historic Religions...
In the eyes of there deities or gods....
SO MARRIAGE HAS NO MEANING TO YOU....SINCE THE BELIEF IN ANY HIGHER BEING IS GONE....
WHY ADOPT A CULTURE OR TRADTION THAT PAYS TRIBUTE TO GODS/ A GOD
WHAT A HYPOCRITE.....
quote:
Originally posted by mali:
SO MARRIAGE HAS NO MEANING TO YOU....SINCE THE BELIEF IN ANY HIGHER BEING IS GONE....
It's not how you NAME it, it's how you LIVE it my dear. Cohabitation is cohabitation name it what you wish and is not about the PAPER or to whom you tell about it, but is about how you treat each other and whether both gain from the union.
A homework for all dear muslims here: how do you think the rest of the world love and die happily, the 5.5 billion something people, with all their different gods and their prophets and some even totally godlessly. Do you really imagine you are this only group of chosen, illuminated people, the onely ones with hope? I wish I could enjoy self-evaluation of that level except I do not find any happiness in thinking I am better and so many others are worse off, I'd much rather believe we are all together pretty well off if know to live wisely and care also about the next person beside us, not just ourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by nevermind:
It's not how you NAME it, it's how you LIVE it my dear. Cohabitation is cohabitation name it what you wish and is not about the PAPER or to whom you tell about it, but is about how you treat each other and whether both gain from the union.
Nevermind, I have to agree with you here. Who thought this would ever happen? 
quote:
Originally posted by nevermind:
It's not how you NAME it, it's how you LIVE it my dear. Cohabitation is cohabitation name it what you wish and is not about the PAPER or to whom you tell about it, but is about how you treat each other and whether both gain from the union.A homework for all dear muslims here: how do you think the rest of the world love and die happily, the 5.5 billion something people, with all their different gods and their prophets and some even totally godlessly. Do you really imagine you are this only group of chosen, illuminated people, the onely ones with hope? I wish I could enjoy self-evaluation of that level
ditto From a muslim
[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited 16 May 2005).]
Marriage has more meaning than just being apart of a religious practice. It's about sticking together and raising a family. Strange how you are unaware of this most important fact. hmmmmm
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mali:
[B].
SO MARRIAGE HAS NO MEANING TO YOU...Marriage has more meaning than just being apart of a religious practice. It's about sticking together and raising a family. Strange how you are unaware of this most important fact. hmmmmm
Once again, you are the one who doesn't want to understand. You were asking about the rules here in Egypt, we tell you, but you reject them. Marriage doesn't have the same meaning here and there, sorry to tell you. Open your eyes, you want to marry an Egyptian, not an American. And it's not a matter of living here or there. If your GF really exists, she will always be an Egyptian, she has been raised in this culture, she is a part of it.
Yes of course , i've seen many pictures. I have even received a care package in the mail containing actual photos, and other gifts. The times i've sent money it has been around $100 or little more. She was going to university but had to drop out for health reasons. But I will not mention her where abouts and living conditions to strangers. And I won't mention anymore personal information about her. It's not my life story to give out and besides I don't want any harm to come to her.
how old is she? and how did her parents abandoned her and why? cause they found out about you???? this is the first case i ever hear that parents abandon their daughter cause of internet love! specially in egypt! Gobi if they really thaught that way they wouldnt abandon her they would not allow her to enter the net at all.
Gobi always remember what is normal to you..is not far normal in egypt!
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by UTsarah:
[B]this does seem like an elaborate internet scam. how come you won't answer the questions aboutwhat money you sent and where? you call her in egypt, is it a cell phone or a home phone? do you pay for her calls? where did she attend school, have you seen any pictures of her and her family, ect. ? if its actually legitimate it should be easy to explain, and those on here who know will tell you.Yes of course , i've seen many pictures. I have even received a care package in the mail containing actual photos, and other gifts. The times i've sent money it has been around $100 or little more. She was going to university but had to drop out for health reasons. But I will not mention her where abouts and living conditions to strangers. And I won't mention anymore personal information about her. It's not my life story to give out and besides I don't want any harm to come to her.
you know what dude...do whatever you want..we have tried to give you some of the things that might be the real truth..but in the end its up to you..
[This message has been edited by Serendipity (edited 16 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by RaniaMe:
Once again, you are the one who doesn't want to understand. You were asking about the rules here in Egypt, we tell you, but you reject them. Marriage doesn't have the same meaning here and there, sorry to tell you. Open your eyes, you want to marry an Egyptian, not an American. And it's not a matter of living here or there. If your GF really exists, she will always be an Egyptian, she has been raised in this culture, she is a part of it.
best
Serendipity, I don't know what to think anymore. I still wish to hold onto what I know to be true, but yes you and a few others have made good points. I never wanted to take this to the level of agrueing religion , because that is not the issue. We all went of on a tangent and I (for awhile) felt like I was being attacked. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here in the first place. All it has done is depress and confuse me more. (and Added more fear to my trip) I know that this all doesn't seem right to most , but maybe this is a special case. It all seems like a bizare twist of romeo and juliet. Lets hope it doesn't end the same way. "A Curse on both your houses"
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]
You asked about the rules here, you have them now: you can't take her hand, kiss her, see her at night.
You are talking about getting married, we tell you the rules as well: no marriage as long as you are not a muslim.
Someone kindly told you it's almost impossible to make her come that easy to the US, you don't want to face the truth, and still keep talking about the fact you will marry her in the US. When she's going to ask for her visa at the embassy and tell them she has an American fiance, she will be refused. Just like that. It happens for the US, but it will be the same in any embassy. Not the right time for emigrating or just travelling when you are an Arab. How humiliating.
You say she has been abandonned by her family, we tell you here it's IMPOSSIBLE to see something like that here. You say she's living alone, you get the same answer.
We don't know you, and we only answered you according to what you said, and according to all our previous experiences.
But enough on that topic. I sincerely wish you the best, have a great stay here in Egypt, and when you return, please tell us we were wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:Serendipity, I don't know what to think anymore. I still wish to hold onto what I know to be true, but yes you and a few others have made good points. I never wanted to take this to the level of agrueing religion , because that is not the issue. We all went of on a tangent and I (for awhile) felt like I was being attacked. Maybe I shouldn't have posted here in the first place. All it has done is depress and confuse me more. (and Added more fear to my trip) I know that this all doesn't seem right to most , but maybe this is a special case. It all seems like a bizare twist of romeo and juliet. Lets hope it doesn't end the same way. "A Curse on both your houses"
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]
I know exactly how you feel..BELIEVE me I know. I know its very hard to imagine that the one you love can be a lier..but plz for your own sacke just question all of it before doing anything. Some ppl are good at acting like an angel and that you are their hero ..just for the sacke of visa and money..I know it must be very confusing cause you dont know who to believe the one you love and talked to for 3 years or total strangers in an egyptian forum. But remember none of us here benefit anything. For me I just wish you the best.. and hope that you dont fall in the trap that many before has done...
Egypt is definitely worth a visit. Good luck!
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I only asked about the rules for when i'm there. And I wasn't asking about the rules of marrige, i was asking the rules of dateing and relationship acceptance. I know marrige has different meaning in these two places, I told you i'm only concerened about the United States in regards to marrige. Of course she will always be Egyptian, what else, she's not going to roll up in a cacoon and turn into a German? don't be silly! I'm not trying to take anything away from her. I'm only fighting this silly rule that i have read on a muslim website by a muslim that states Allah is not intirely clear on the matter of a muslim woman with a non muslim man.
Hi gobi79harry!
I just wanted to make a slight correction to something you said. Allah is perfectly clear on the matter of a Muslim woman marrying a non-Muslim man, He said it in the Qur’an:
“O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them, Allâh knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers, send them not back to the disbelievers, they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them…That is the Judgement of Allâh. He judges between you. And Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Wise.” (60: 10)
As with anything we need to check the validity of the sources before we quote them.
And yes, I agree that the woman will never lose the fact that she is Egyptian, and likewise, unless she renounces her faith, however tenuous or not that may be at the moment, she will always be a Muslim and that will always influence what she does and thinks is the correct way to act as much as her being Egyptian will.
On the surface this website appears to be a useful site, but I have visited a couple of times and have doubts about many things I have read, particularly about the qualification of the person answering the questions. As I said, you need to check the sources of your information, always. There are a lot of people out there claiming to be Islamic authorities without valid qualifications...a bit like quack doctors!
If as you say you want the woman you are talking about to continue with her faith, you are going to have to resolve the conflicts that some of the things you have said, somehow.
I agree with the others that you need to come here and meet her to find out what the real truth of her situation is, but if you find it is as you hope it will be, then you need to do some serious thinking and discussing about what the impact on any possible future will be of the differences in your faiths and how that can be resolved. Islam is a way of life, it affects everything you do, it can't just conveniently be rolled up and put in a corner when it doesn't suit you and brought out when it does. It's a comprehensive package! Good luck and may Allah guide you to the truth.
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I never wish for her to give up the life of a muslim woman. I've said that before.
thats the thing with humans.....im not attacking you but your steering from the clear truth....
senario
if a individuals friend starts stealing...but the individual that is stealing tries there best to stay clear from there friend that thinks they dont know there stealing...but eventually finds out....but yet the individual that finds out believes there friend that steal will discontinue but to be in the presence of there friend at the store in the act and is successful....and continues...since the other friend does little...becuase the negative habit wontdirectly affect her/him...
however by unknowing facilitating his/her friend in the recreational habit....his/her morals were indanger but now its difficult to pull out f the hot water she/he has put him/her self into...
the friends negative habit unfortunately intersected with his/her lively hood....
and could dramaticly impact him/her to the point that he/she may pick it up...
Since in your case friendship is passed and a relationship of greater emotional and
physical ties are on the line...
and forget about religion in any logic...
YOU WILL HAVE A DIRECT IMPACT AND WILL INFLUENCE HER DECISION MAKING
PERIOD.....
So her religious beliefs as a result will conflict and MOST DEFINETLY will be on the line...YOU HAVE TO VIEW THIS CLEARLY.....
You have adopted and adapted to your surrondings....
And reform for any sake...even for love..i cant say here..seems unimportant...
Since love is a Emotion.....emotions change...and if thats the reason for marriage....I SUGGEST YOU TO ANALYIZE YOUR STEPS.....STARDING A FAMILY AND BECOMING 1 IS A HUGE LIFE EXPERIENCE...1 of WHICH IS REWARDING...and as confused as any1 in your possition is and dealing with such obstacles...Dont Come to a country for the Sake of meeting..in your case you havent met her before...So if you want to go abouts a great way...THAT DOESNT CONFLICT WITH YOUR values/morals i suggest you to meet Her in the Presence of agood friend of hers or relative...or a Good friend of yours ore relative of the opposite sex...Since you want no hassels and to RESPECT her CUSOMS/RELIGION...
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 16 May 2005).]
just because my roomate watches a t.v. show I hate all the time. doesn't mean I have to watch it. I read a book or take a walk. I don't have to watch the show. just like someone doesn't have to agree to my opinion.
And If your love is real and true it won't change but age like wine. What better reason to get married if you have love. What do you think marrige is for profit?, status, because the woman has nice child baring hip? What works best for you? Love is the only reason I believe people join together. Would you marry someone you didn't really love in your heart. Someone you're drawn to and feel pain for when they are not near. "All you need is love" John Lennon said that. Smart man , shot in the back , very sad.
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
Wow Mali, that was the most confusingly written scenario I have ever stumbled to read. I follow you but I don't agree. That can't always be the case. If a person holds to what they think true, they won't bend to anyone who says differently. And in the case of a relationship, couples always differ on some issues. This would just be one of those issues. I don't see that causing a problem. You say ketchup I say catchup. She's her own person, she can make what ever choices she wishes. I will not influence, only support those choices.just because my roomate watches a t.v. show I hate all the time. doesn't mean I have to watch it. I read a book or take a walk. I don't have to watch the show. just like someone doesn't have to agree to my opinion.
And If your love is real and true it won't change but age like wine. What better reason to get married if you have love. What do you think marrige is for profit?, status, because the woman has nice child baring hip? What works best for you? Love is the only reason I believe people join together. Would you marry someone you didn't really love in your heart. Someone you're drawn to and feel pain for when they are not near. "All you need is love" John Lennon said that. Smart man , shot in the back , very sad.
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 16 May 2005).]
well i atest to that...
since Ancestry
whether homo sapiens or adam eve
the emotion of love...was far from concern
since the survival of there seed was more then enough signifacnct to bring the world as is today.....
To some love= meaningless emotions that stand in the way....
to others love= a cause to die for....
since sterotyping is more important here...egypto society.....
ir for that matter islam
well in Islam reference....there are 5 reasons for marriage
1...you already said profit/security
2.beauty
3. child barring
4. relations between commuinties and bring about peace....done alot during the Med Ages.
5.LOVE...yes love
this is only based on both partner or the male partner being a Muslim
Since the MALE SEX...is a DOMINATING Sex...right there it is Forbidden for A Muslim women to marry a non muslim
im no going to be fandy dandy and say its All sweet....Since marriage is serious...im not her to give advice...
but as you stated....its only a ISSUE...
Since the word ISSUE...Is interchangably used with the word PROBLEM....
YOUR sentence is confusing to understand
since its a ISSUE...there needs to be a SOLUTION...
And not addressing the ISSUE...is plain old standing in a pit of DENIAL...
so resolve the ISSUE....
Since a Visa to bring her over to the us is a ISSUE....
There are other barriers or ISSUES you clearly need to SOLve...before it affects the marriage...SINCE yes LITTLE THINGS CAN BREAK UP A MARRIAGE...
AS LITTLE AS HOW A SPOUSE BITES ON THERE TOE NAILS...!!!
realism is key.....
also, this guy asks for advice, then argues against it because its not what he wants to hear. he's been told repeatedly that even the smallest details he's given point towards lies, yet he still plays games!
you sent money to someone in a foreign country you "met" on the internet! are you that niave? i think you must be, because this is common sense stuff. i get the impression that you make these types of decisions all the time, am i right? impulsive choices, big life changing moves that amount to nothing, all because you didn't listen to advice or even put any thought into what you were doing.
i know this is very harsh, but come on, he makes pompus statements that come off like the over dramatic thoughts of a teenage loser. the silly attempts at sounding deep, the lame attemps at smart references, its all just sad and childish. people who have lived and experienced the culture and society you ask about give you good sound advice, and you insult or ignore them and tell them how it really is. if you won't listen, then i think you deserve the reality check thats waiting for you.
quote:
Originally posted by UTsarah:
everyone should be focused on the fact that this whole relationship is definitly a scam. he is being used and doesn't know it, or if he does then he's so in love with the idea of this relationship that he doesn't care.also, this guy asks for advice, then argues against it because its not what he wants to hear. he's been told repeatedly that even the smallest details he's given point towards lies, yet he still plays games!
you sent money to someone in a foreign country you "met" on the internet! are you that niave? i think you must be, because this is common sense stuff. i get the impression that you make these types of decisions all the time, am i right? impulsive choices, big life changing moves that amount to nothing, all because you didn't listen to advice or even put any thought into what you were doing.
i know this is very harsh, but come on, he makes pompus statements that come off like the over dramatic thoughts of a teenage loser. the silly attempts at sounding deep, the lame attemps at smart references, its all just sad and childish. people who have lived and experienced the culture and society you ask about give you good sound advice, and you insult or ignore them and tell them how it really is. if you won't listen, then i think you deserve the reality check thats waiting for you.
UT couldnt say it better...it has nothing to do with the relationship whther a scam or not...
its just the childish persona he has with his sterotypical comments that a 13 yr old would make...
either this posters a 13 yr or a fool period...
Another thing you should do is to check out sites about interfaith marriages. There are other people who thought naively, like you that it wouldn’t make a difference, but down the line it has caused huge problems. It sounds like you haven’t had much exposure to Muslims other than this woman. Perhaps you should go to your local mosque and meet some! As I said, Islam is a way of life, it doesn’t just affect the way you pronounce a word or like certain television programmes, it is a basic belief system that affects everything from the way you deal with people, the way you earn/save your money, how you go to the bathroom, what you eat, when and how you can have sex, along with the requirements for praying 5 times a day and fasting for a whole month in the year, etc. etc. etc.
You could be being taken for a ride, as the others are suggesting; there is nothing wrong in someone wanting to make their life better and looking for a way out of a difficult life situation, we all do that. But if her intention is purely to hook someone to get her out of Egypt by making them feel sorry for her and it is based on lies, and if she gets out she will make his life hell or continue to abuse his trust, then that is another issue.
If however, it seems that her intentions are just to find someone to support her you have some serious studying to do about Islam before you are ready to take on that responsibility!
Millions of people have the same situation every day - meeting another person and not quite knowing to trust her/him and not quite knowing yet where it all will lead. Not so big deal.Aren't the happiest people the kind of (can I put this way?) Heminguesque people who have the ability to simply sort down the life to its simple pleasures - food, sleep and maybe sex if you are the more lucky, smiles of good people, a firm handshake now and then...
It is the kind of life you lead when you detach yourself from any kind of organised administrative system, whether religious or secular, as much as practicable, so here's also a point to think about: that the systems we have created and still continue building in the world, may be more of a burden to an individual rather than something that would help him enjoy his life....???
So, he'll go, visit, meet her, find ways to spend time with her the way they both wish (we human beings are creative and who of you was it who even pointed out a park in Cairo, in Zamalek? where couples sitting on benches where much more interested in gazing at each other that at the beautiful surroundings?) and just carry on day by day until they both like how it makes them feel.
And with the US embassy, with a country that supposedly has an issue with islam, wouldn't it make such a helpful case to aid a young loving couple who are forced to FLEEEEEEE (here drama become shelpful again ) because she is facing horrible denouncement from her community and his human right to marry for love is violated??
I am sure they can eventually find SOME country that will receive them because believes in keeping administrative and spiritual issues apart.
About islam being SOOO different, no it is NOT. It is a different kind of cocktail form the cocktail of say catholicism or buddism, but the deepest values and those that the wisest religious people actually follow, are based on humanistic principles and some good sound common truth.
Some others are based on frightening people into obedience (the purpose of all organised believing) which may even have not been so bad thing in a totally unruly country but should probably change as people change; and yet some are based on deficient knowledge of the times when the story was compiled, but these are really not so important.
That a person in the family chooses not to eat
or only chooses to eat special food is no big deal in the West, quite contrary it is harder and harder to find a person who eats normal things at normal times. That one has special rules for sex... some other people call it care and common sense. That people pray a certain times a day... a pause every 50 minutes is not only healthy for eyes and mind but also helps to relieve pressure like any kind of meditation would.
We (you) just call this concoction islam, but if you sort it out it is still just the same: sugar, water, sun, flour... just the same basic beliefs and values that other good caring people in the world have, be they believers in gods or not. If you share these same values then you'll like each others decisions and can create a smooth life together and the small details over that are not really so important. Concentrate on similarities instead because this is what you can build into a common basis.
Love!!!
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I thank you all for your help, info, and time. You may not think so , but It all has sunk in. I hope nothing i have said has offended anyone. I never meant to cause so much trouble. If it's not what it is when I get there, i'll just enjoy the stuff Egypt has to offer and go about my merry way. Who Knows maybe I'll even turn to Islam , I haven't ruled anything out. There are many choices that i guess are mine alone to take, and I will choose the path that best suits me. I'd do anything for this girl, and I hope it all works out. I'll post here to let all know if she was real or not. I still believe she is ,,,in my heart,
Thank you to all , and to all a goodnight
Hi there
It might be worthwhile to visit your local mosque & arrange an appointment with the Imam to get some of your basic questions answered in preparation for your trip to Egypt. People here have said it before: Islam is a way of life and has a profound impact on how people live their lives including marriage e.g. the saying goes here that 'marriage is half of religious duty'. I know that the reality of this statement will only sink in once you have had more exposure to the way of life here.
I hope you will get the chance to meet & get to know her family. One thing is for sure, you will be asked a lot of personal questions including 'what is your religion' and you better come prepared for that. Anyways, I wish you the very best of luck & I hope that things work out for the best.
Cheers
Ann
quote:
Originally posted by a person here:
are you that niave?
Naiivety, contrary to popular belief, is actually a positive human trait. It is what enables us to believe in new posibilites and that there are things and truths we do not know as yet. It helps find and create new solutions to (usually old ) problems, in contrast to the "know it all" type of life fatigue.
Anyway, if you face a risk of erring, like so often in life when you step into unknown, then which is a more fullfilling option--to err to the side of sure profit for you, or to err to the side of a sure profit for another person?
To risk with hurting an innocent person out of overcaring for yourself, or take a hurt out of overcaring for others? I believe am strong enough to risk with a few blows now and them, if it grants me baby's sleep each night (LUVVVVVE to sleep )
quote:
Originally posted by nevermind:
[B] Naiivety, contrary to popular belief, is actually a positive human trait. B]
Nevermind this poem is for you
SONNET 116
Let me not to the marriage of true minds
Admit impediments. Love is not love
Which alters when it alteration finds,
Or bends with the remover to remove:
O no! it is an ever-fixed mark
That looks on tempests and is never shaken;
It is the star to every wandering bark,
Whose worth's unknown, although his height be taken.
Love's not Time's fool, though rosy lips and cheeks
Within his bending sickle's compass come:
Love alters not with his brief hours and weeks,
But bears it out even to the edge of doom.
If this be error and upon me proved,
I never writ, nor no man ever loved.
by William Shakespeare
[This message has been edited by salama (edited 14 May 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]
My goodness, fresh for later??? like a vegetable or a piece of meat????
Thank you Seren, I am a fair maid as can be but so fair as to deserve such beauty of mind and word, I am not .
Let it then rather be a poem for all lovers, OK?, because, my word, I have read my share of S. in my early years but mostly his plays which are mainly witty. Anything of such beauty I have not read before.
quote:
Originally posted by nevermind:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serendipity:
[B] Nevermind this poem is for youThank you Seren, I am a fair maid as can be
Let it then rather be a poem for all lovers, OK?, because, my word, I have read my share of S. in my early years but mostly his plays which are mainly witty. Anything of such beauty I have not read before.
Your welcome dear Girl if shakespeare excisted now i would marry him!! (hehe i am a sentimental fool)
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I'm not trying to be stubborn about it, and I'm not acting like "I don't want to be Muslim just because..." That's not the issue at all. Infact I have even thought about it. The only reason why I would convert , would be for her, because I love her so very much. The Issue is, deep inside my inner beliefs would conflict with some of the rules of Islam. I wouldn't feel true to it or myself. There are some basic human rights and choices that would be taken away from me, and I believe woman should have all the same rights and respect as men. I haven't seen that in Islam. I have not completely made up my mind on the subject but for now this is how I feel.
Hi goby....I hope my story make you have your own option.I am Moslem woman but live in Indonesia your case almost same like me.My bf an American and we have relationship for 3years and he visited me every year to know each other.He did not believe any religion too.He know me from the beginning that I am moslem and can not marry with non moslem,for me its difficult to deep relation since I know he have no inten to convert,He almost like you have reason with did not believe religion..but I realize after 3 yrs he is my fake.We talk and confirm to get win-win solution.When he visited me he stayed in hotel and I can visit him also..so do not so complicated with this believe if you really have good hearth Allah may hear you.back to topic,I and my bf decide to get marry but we have problem with religion,I still want to do marry with Islam way and for him impossible,but because he loves me and I want to tolerans with him so we decide when get marry he convert to Islam and marry me but with wrong reason I know...but only Allah know what the true or not so calm down ,just to help your girl did not feeling sin every day its her life...but we comprimese to legal in US because US do not need actually have to be same religion.So yan take her to US marry her in US without be a moslem,but marry her with Islam way.
Loves can comes many ways......believe that.I believe with you said its your fake because I feel the same thing and I cannot run with this.
You know what you want and you all mature can think the good or wrong,,life have a risk dont be afraid what you choose if someday you failed...its just life nobody now the future except God.Follow your heart and compromised with your girl.Bravo...
Hopefully you have option when you read my posting.
quote:
Originally posted by he_love 21:
Hi GB....I read all your posting....Do you want to know something all herestory:
My bf send me money and more than 100$ so its not wrong if you believe that your gf a good person.Hey all realize still have girl ask money but have good hearth.I am moslem and my bf just believe god not religion.Want to know the truth I can come visit my bf in hotel I dont think so hotel staff will asked the ID of your gf.And I know the story like you never meet and plan marry and the next happy ending story.I getting marry also with my bf who that non-moslem.
So GB if you think you wright so do it.Just tthink you come to cairo for vacation and the same time to know your gf more so if something happened nothing to loose right?
Good luck
Thank you he_love21
You have really eased my mind. I'm glad I am not alone in this situation. For awhile I thought we were the only moslem/non-moslem couple. So your boyfriend IS going to convert when you marry? I love my girlfriend with all my being! All I want in life is to spend everyday with her and have a family. We make each other very happy and if God didn't want us to be together then we never would have met and fell in love. There is a reason for everything and I thank the God everyday for her.
quote:
Originally posted by he_love 21:
...My bf send me money and more than 100$ so its not wrong if you believe that your gf a good person....Want to know the truth I can come visit my bf in hotel I dont think so hotel staff will asked the ID of your gf.
Assalamu alaykum Hanny!
As you will find out, there are some major differences between Egypt and Indonesia...they are both predominantly Muslim countries, but Egypt is more strict about upholding some aspects of Islam than Indonesia.
quote:
Originally posted by he_love 21:
Hi GB....I read all your posting....Do you want to know something all herestory:
My bf send me money and more than 100$ so its not wrong if you believe that your gf a good person.Hey all realize still have girl ask money but have good hearth.I am moslem and my bf just believe god not religion.Want to know the truth I can come visit my bf in hotel I dont think so hotel staff will asked the ID of your gf.And I know the story like you never meet and plan marry and the next happy ending story.I getting marry also with my bf who that non-moslem.
So GB if you think you wright so do it.Just tthink you come to cairo for vacation and the same time to know your gf more so if something happened nothing to loose right?
Good luck
Girl are you from indonesia!!!
I have lived in Indonesia for one year!! I miss it soooooo much! 
Its one of the most beautiful countries I have been to.
quote:
Originally posted by Serendipity:
Girl are you from indonesia!!!
I have lived in Indonesia for one year!! I miss it soooooo much!
Yea..I am from Indonesia thanks to say Indonesia beautiful country I'd love too.Come again to Indonesia and you already have friend guys.ha..ha.. I am not anxious to know egypt..yea I know Egypt more stricht than Indonesia.I am moslem bu t I did not use jihab like most Indonesians but I still believe that my religion the best!ha..ha..
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
Thank you he_love21You have really eased my mind. I'm glad I am not alone in this situation. For awhile I thought we were the only moslem/non-moslem couple. So your boyfriend IS going to convert when you marry? I love my girlfriend with all my being! All I want in life is to spend everyday with her and have a family. We make each other very happy and if God didn't want us to be together then we never would have met and fell in love. There is a reason for everything and I thank the God everyday for her.
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Hanny!As you will find out, there are some major differences between Egypt and Indonesia...they are both predominantly Muslim countries, but Egypt is more strict about upholding some aspects of Islam than Indonesia.
Hi too New comer...i understand that some differences I just did not make so compicated with GB how rules etc..as along as He not to out of line wherever he come another country I thought its not problem.He just want being litlle bit romance if I am not wrong.
.Ok GB if you really sure what your want just do it or you have big question all of your life.actually you are Man not woman have to be more carefull.Cheerssss!!!
Not only does a person have to convert to Islam with their mouth, but also with their heart, mind, and body (i.e. in their actions). If your boyfriend is knowingly only converting on paper for a day, do you really think that Allah will be fooled by that?! Secondly, to have a legitimate Islamic marriage you have to have your wali present and do it in front of two reliable Muslim witnesses, and the person doing the ceremony should be sure that the two people are legally entitled to marry each other; without meeting these conditions you will still be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. I know this is all between you and Allah, and you are held responsible for your own actions, but as a Muslim I am obliged to give advice to fellow Muslims and where possible give correct information to non-Muslims.
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Henny!Not only does a person have to convert to Islam with their mouth, but also with their heart, mind, and body (i.e. in their actions). If your boyfriend is knowingly only converting on paper for a day, do you really think that Allah will be fooled by that?! Secondly, to have a legitimate Islamic marriage you have to have your wali present and do it in front of two reliable Muslim witnesses, and the person doing the ceremony should be sure that the two people are legally entitled to marry each other; without meeting these conditions you will still be committing a sin in the eyes of Islam. I know this is all between you and Allah, and you are held responsible for your own actions, but as a Muslim I am obliged to give advice to fellow Muslims and where possible give correct information to non-Muslims.
I read one posting that muslim woman (Paskitanis) marry with christian without blessing first with allah and they do in dutch for legal...sometime people dont want to do but have to do.
Sadly in your response you only repeated my words that would only make your marriage appear to be a legal one in the eyes of the people, but it missed out the words that would make it legal in the eyes of Allah. Conversion in front of people by saying the words is not what makes someone a Muslim; it is truly meaning it in their heart and mind and showing it in their actions. And witnesses and a ceremony without him fulfilling the criteria for being there in the first place make it a sham ceremony and a lie to the people and to Allah. And you don’t mention your father/guardian, is he in on the lie too?
You are the one who is making this decision, no one else. You are not being forced to make it, you don’t have to do it, you have been given a choice. You are a human being to whom Allah gave free will to make choices over how you lead your life and you are choosing to commit a sin. It’s true the choice you have been given is a difficult one, but never the less, you have been given a choice. You don’t have to choose to commit a sin, you can say no, even though your heart is wanting you to say yes. Sometimes we have to make hard decisions; I did once and it was very difficult, but I know it can be done. It is one of the tests of your faith. I am sorry if my words come over as being harsh, but you know in your heart that what I am saying is true and why I am saying it.
I'm giving odds that either she doesn't show up or that she isn't all she claims to have been, but maybe I'll be wrong.
once again I just try to do the best in the worst.Ok friends thanks to all give the advice .I am sure I will stay in Egypt and come back again still keep in touch with this forum and update my story.
He_love21, believe in what you are doing, the most important thing is before tying the knot that you both want it no matter what and for the right reasons. Hope everything works out well for you. Good luck!
quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
Well, Goby, if you are still with us you will now understand more or less why for some people faith is everything and for some not.He_love21, believe in what you are doing, the most important thing is before tying the knot that you both want it no matter what and for the right reasons. Hope everything works out well for you. Good luck!
quote:
Originally posted by he_love 21:
Thanks to all....I really thanks for the comment and I am not heartless about it..this topic for GB actually but thanks for response me I concern I have to do my religion very well...but?I just be positive after convert Islam step by step he will follow me and do Islam I wish....that true I hold with kun fayakun and Allah make come true.Thats wat from me have to patient give example how moslem to do but if finally did not work
Assalamu alaykum Henny!
As you know, all actions are judged by their intentions and if this man is just converting for the day to get married to you as you said he will be a murtad the next day, he will not be a Muslim for you to work on step by step, and your marriage will be invalid. You are going into this with your eyes half-closed hoping that what you can’t see isn’t there. It is there and you can’t hide from it. You do have a choice, you tried to show him what Islam is to try to get him to accept it, it did not work. You can say no and you should say no, even now! Kun fa yakun does not mean that you knowingly commit a sin and then hope that Allah will make it ok for you, it means that the power is in His Hands and all he has to say is Be and it will be; and He has forbidden a Muslim woman from marrying a non-Muslim man.
If all actions are judged by their intentions, then what is the problem here?
The whole point behind the father being of muslim faith is that in the old days (and still in many places today) the child automatically takes the religion (and name) of the father. Therefore the father had to be muslim in order for a muslim woman to bring up her child muslim.
That is no longer the case today. The child can be raised by the mother as a muslim and the father (even if he's not of faith) can truly support his wife in this.
As to the rest, chalk that up to personal faith which should be left up to the individual.
In our culture. a child follows after his father Ex.not his mother.
I know I have been unusually hard, but if someone came on here and was saying that they were planning on committing a crime, like a murder for example, because they couldn’t help it, I am sure people wouldn’t sit back and encourage them to do it if it would make them feel better, this in religious terms is what he_love 21 is trying to say and make herself feel better about. She is saying in one breath that she wants to be a good Muslim, and has even asked for a fatwa about a minor issue, so its not as if she doesn’t care about doing the right thing. Of course in the end it’s her own decision, but one she should take in full cognisance of the facts and not by twisting Islam to suit herself.
Islamically, if they get married and have a child that child will not be able to take its father’s name, it will have to take its mother’s name as its parents will not be legally married. The child will be considered illegitimate and the parents committing adultery.
But if she this is what she chooses of course she is entitled to, she has free will to make her own decisions. But she really needs to know what she is doing, and from her comments to date, she doesn’t seem to have received very sound Islamic advice on what she is planning to do.
I realize there are always men who claim the mass to be uneducated fools and innocent lambs that need guidance to the gates of heaven... but since the Quran (again, supposedly direct word of god) was purposefully structured to be something that was suppose to reach the hearts of ordinary men and women... I just really get irritated when people feel it's necessary to tell others how to practice their religion.
Again, the whole premise of having a muslim woman marry a muslim man (as opposed to a man of the book) was because of the way the society at THAT TIME was structured.
Today's society is much different. If a man who is open to all religions and not prejudice marries a woman is a believer in Islam -- and they together agree to raise their child in her religion -- where is the harm?
Anyway, I'm sorry but you are ovestepping your bounds in lecturing other muslims about Islam. If this was someone who was thinking about converting, it would be different. But you are just imposing your interpretation of your religion on another person. And that's one thing that I always admired about Islam -- that you DON'T do that.
Actually it’s Christianity that is now seen as a “personal religion” and between the individual and God. Islam as you know is a way of life and encompasses and structures every action that a Muslim does in his relationship with Allah, himself, his family, and society. It came with a set of rules, principles, and guidelines to structure the society that are applicable for all time, not just for the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him). If any rules were clearly laid down in the Qur’an or by the Prophet, we are to take them as they are and not change them, as we are told in the Qur’an that: “Whenever Allah and His Messenger decide on a matter it is not for a faithful man or woman to follow another course of his or her own choice.” (Al-Ahzab, 33:36) And we are told to consult scholars if we do not understand anything about the religion: “So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you do not know.” (Al-Nahl, 16:43) There are some rulings that have been based on principles can be adapted to suit the environment, time, and place and sometimes even the individual situation of an individual, but this should be done in accordance with the Qur’an and Sunnah by those who have the knowledge to be able to do it.
Yes, there are parts of the Qur’an that are directed to the heart and can be understood by everyone, but other parts need explanation, particularly when it comes to legal matters as they are part of a codified legal system. It takes many years of study to be able to apply that and make rulings on that and it is not up to each individual to make a personal interpretation of the law, and I wasn’t doing that. I was reminding he_love 21 of the rulings on that were either given in the Qur’an or Sunnah or were made by scholars who were qualified in the field.
There is a Hadith from the Prophet that says that: “The religion is advice” which means that it is obligatory on Muslims to give each other advice first of the correct way to follow the religion; we give advice and then it is up to the people whether they follow it or not. Giving information to others about Islam is another and separate part of the religion. I would like to suggest that in your message you are judging me by your understanding of my religion and your own standards and telling me how you as a non-Muslim think I should conduct myself as a Muslim. You are entitled to hold your opinion, but not to judge whether my behaviour is Islamically correct, nor are you in a position to decide what the bases were for Allah making decisions on His Law and that we can change them now.
What all of us will say about Islam wont matter in the end, cause we arent the one wich will take a dedcission. its you guys.
I know its a hard decission and i know its must be tough. But For your sacke while you are thikning of this moment think of the future at the same time. And if you feel that you have a special bond and can survive through it all...its up to you. I hope for the both of you the very best of luck. And i know what they say that love makes a person blind. I just hope when you wake up and see reality it wont be a big shock. And i hope that what all of us said was wrong for your sacke. And if not maybe Allah wants you guys to learn something from it.
Wish you the best of luck,
Sara
I agree that it could be possible for an interpretation to be made as you did if you just at the historical basis of the specific event that caused the revelation to give a fatwa, rather than the wider implications of the verse. Although I don’t have the details of all the legal arguments the scholars used to arrive at their fatwa that it was forbidden for a Muslim woman to marry any non-Muslim, it does seem to have the consensus of Muslim scholarship behind it.
However, as you rightly pointed out the second verse is specifically referring to the “Mushrikun” (polytheists):
æóáÇó ÊõäßöÍõæÇú ÇáúãõÔöÑößöíäó ÍóÊøóì íõÄúãöäõæÇú (221) ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ
“And give not (your daughters) in marriage to the polytheists till they believe…” (Al-Baqarah, 2:221)
But if you look at the one I mentioned, it uses the word “Kaafir” (translated as disbeliever):
íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÅöÐóÇ ÌóÇÁßõãõ ÇáúãõÄúãöäóÇÊõ ãõåóÇÌöÑóÇÊò ÝóÇãúÊóÍöäõæåõäøó Çááøóåõ ÃóÚúáóãõ ÈöÅöíãóÇäöåöäøó ÝóÅöäú ÚóáöãúÊõãõæåõäøó ãõÄúãöäóÇÊò ÝóáóÇ ÊóÑúÌöÚõæåõäøó Åöáóì ÇáúßõÝøóÇÑö áóÇ åõäøó Íöáøñ áøóåõãú æóáóÇ åõãú íóÍöáøõæäó áóåõäøó.(10) ÓæÑÉ ÇáããÊÍäÉa
“O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them, Allâh knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers, send them not back to the disbelievers, they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them…” (Al-Mumtahinah, 60: 10)
Although the highest possibility was that the believing women who could have come as emigrants had previously been polytheists, it could have been possible for them to be women who had previously been Jews or Christians too. And the Qur’an gives some very specific definitions of what a Kaafir is: (4:150-151) (5: 73, 17) which shows that the term clearly includes both the Jews and Christians, as well as the polytheists.
As Allah took the time to mention that Muslim man have permission to marry the “chaste women of the Book”, don’t you think that He would have remembered to say that women also had the same permission after giving such a broad ruling, if He felt He had to clarify some details?
Tiger, I did on my own while working in Luxor . My sister lived on her own in Heliopolice but she was visited frequently by a member of the family.
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Troubles101!I agree that it could be possible for an interpretation to be made as you did if you just at the historical basis of the specific event that caused the revelation to give a fatwa, rather than the wider implications of the verse. Although I don’t have the details of all the legal arguments the scholars used to arrive at their fatwa that it was forbidden for a Muslim woman to marry any non-Muslim, it does seem to have the consensus of Muslim scholarship behind it.
However, as you rightly pointed out the second verse is specifically referring to the “Mushrikun” (polytheists):
æóáÇó ÊõäßöÍõæÇú ÇáúãõÔöÑößöíäó ÍóÊøóì íõÄúãöäõæÇú (221) ÓæÑÉ ÇáÈÞÑÉ
“And give not (your daughters) in marriage to the polytheists till they believe…” (Al-Baqarah, 2:221)But if you look at the one I mentioned, it uses the word “Kaafir” (translated as disbeliever):
íóÇ ÃóíøõåóÇ ÇáøóÐöíäó ÂãóäõæÇ ÅöÐóÇ ÌóÇÁßõãõ ÇáúãõÄúãöäóÇÊõ ãõåóÇÌöÑóÇÊò ÝóÇãúÊóÍöäõæåõäøó Çááøóåõ ÃóÚúáóãõ ÈöÅöíãóÇäöåöäøó ÝóÅöäú ÚóáöãúÊõãõæåõäøó ãõÄúãöäóÇÊò ÝóáóÇ ÊóÑúÌöÚõæåõäøó Åöáóì ÇáúßõÝøóÇÑö áóÇ åõäøó Íöáøñ áøóåõãú æóáóÇ åõãú íóÍöáøõæäó áóåõäøó.(10) ÓæÑÉ ÇáããÊÍäÉa
“O you who believe! When believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them, Allâh knows best as to their Faith, then if you ascertain that they are true believers, send them not back to the disbelievers, they are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them…” (Al-Mumtahinah, 60: 10)Although the highest possibility was that the believing women who could have come as emigrants had previously been polytheists, it could have been possible for them to be women who had previously been Jews or Christians too. And the Qur’an gives some very specific definitions of what a Kaafir is: (4:150-151) (5: 73, 17) which shows that the term clearly includes both the Jews and Christians, as well as the polytheists.
As Allah took the time to mention that Muslim man have permission to marry the “chaste women of the Book”, don’t you think that He would have remembered to say that women also had the same permission after giving such a broad ruling, if He felt He had to clarify some details?
I don't have time at the moment to look for a link about the historical background but if you look online about the truce of Hudaibyah you may find something, it was a truce between Muslims who emigrated to Madinah and polytheists in Makkah when the prophet wanted to visit Ka'aaba which was under polytheists control and they made some conditions which the prophet accpted all in order to reach peace with them and one of those conditions was that Muslims should send back anyone between the polytheists if he convert to Islam and join the Muslims and after agreeing on those terms one of the polytheists came before they sign the agreement who became Muslim however Muslims had to send him back and he cried and said " Muslims! will you give me back to polytheists after I became Muslim" but the prophet asked him to be patient...OOPS i went so far away from the main issue , sorry
As for why permission was not given in Qur'an clearly, someone could say perhaps it was permitted by the same verse since the Qur'an spoke sometimes about general maters while directing the talk to men, or Perhaps it was meant to be left that way untill the same criteria by which men were given that periission would become avaliable to women. Women during the prophetic time mostly wouldn't be able to survive without man and therefore giving them to Non Muslim man in a place where people were not tolerant to Islam would be like putting her in a position where she might have to choose in her life between her faith or life but those things chang forward or backward from time to another. There could be many reasons but the fact that it was not said clearly makes it not part of the Shariah and up for Ijtihad.
What I like to say is that the person here (he_love and the other who i forgot his name)should reason all by him/herself and apply that which they believe to be the truth regardless of whether they like it or not as the whole message of Islam (submission) is meaningless when we only take what we like and reject what we dislike, in Qur'an it's said that you may dislike something which is good for you and vice versa. Think and pray to the one you need in life more than anyone...hope you reach peace with whatever you choose.
Thanks for the reminder about Hudaybiyyah! However, I think you will find that the verse about men and the women of the Book is fairly gender specific, unless the women would have to pay mahr too!
“Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture before your time, when you have given their due Mahr, desiring chastity, not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girl-friends." (Al-Mâ’idah 5:5)
However, I would still contend that the law was fairly specific when it mentioned not marrying “Kaafir” and that as no exception was given it should be understood that way, as most of the scholars have. I agree with your advice that we should take Islam as a whole even if it says things that we find difficult, but that we should base our understanding on a thorough study of the religion, taking into account the opinions of the best scholars we can find, not just those who will tell us what we want to hear and not just using our own understanding.
And he_love 21, I know the situation in your country very well and about how people think nothing about dating and that many women have relationships with non-Muslim men, why do you think I was so tough on you? It’s because too many people, especially in Indonesia, take it too easy and try to find a million-and-one excuses to do what they know in their hearts is wrong. The problem starts with dating, and then with dating someone you know you can’t legally marry. Yes, as a Muslim we have to have good relationships with non-Muslims, but the way we carry out those relationships is regulated by the religion, and it doesn’t include dating with Muslims or non-Muslims. I do know of people who have ended relationships, or hopes of them, for things much less than not being able to legally marry them, it can be done unless you let your nafs rule your head. But I have said all along, everyone makes their own choices and takes the consequences of them. I was just trying to make you stop and think even more than you have already, to try save you from making a mistake and doing something that even you yourself admit is wrong. I also didn’t want other people thinking that it was ok for them to do the same and that it was no big deal.
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:However, I would still contend that the law was fairly specific when it mentioned not marrying “Kaafir” and that as no exception was given it should be understood that way, as most of the scholars have.
I'm not aware of any scholar who said that this verse included Christians and Jews while doing the tafseer since it's clear that if a jewish or Christian woman joined Muslims those terms of Hudaibyah truce wont apply on her and the prophet wouldn't have to send her back to polytheists as the truce was with the polytheists of makkah and not Christians or jews who actually were in Madinah already. It's true many scholars took this verse in general way when it came to marriage between Muslim women and non Muslims yet it's not the only thing in QUr'an where specific events were generalized and some other scholars kept them within their own context only. It's true that the word Kafir is can refer to different kind of people and in fact the word itself has different degrees and that's why we should understand the context and event behind it in order to know exactly whether it meant specific group or not, take for example Surah Al Kafirun (disbelievers) if you apply it on the jews then we will be saying that we don't worship the same God of Jews which contradic Surah al ankaboot (spider) verse 46. Ursah Kafirun clearly spoke of polytheism and those who associated other gods with Allah yet the word Kafirun was used and not polytheists.
I agree with the rest of your talk.
Salaam
P.S I will save the gender talk to another day due my limited time
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Henny!As you know, all actions are judged by their intentions and if this man is just converting for the day to get married to you as you said he will be a murtad the next day, he will not be a Muslim for you to work on step by step, and your marriage will be invalid. You are going into this with your eyes half-closed hoping that what you can’t see isn’t there. It is there and you can’t hide from it. You do have a choice, you tried to show him what Islam is to try to get him to accept it, it did not work. You can say no and you should say no, even now! Kun fa yakun does not mean that you knowingly commit a sin and then hope that Allah will make it ok for you, it means that the power is in His Hands and all he has to say is Be and it will be; and He has forbidden a Muslim woman from marrying a non-Muslim man.
I of course bow to your superior knowledge of the Qur’an, especially as someone who has nearly completed memorizing it...how much more do you have to do? (That is something I am so envious of and, among many other things is something I really need to do more work on!) And of course to your superior knowledge of Arabic, by the way, what did you mean by “Ursah Kafirun”? As I do have some knowledge of the bases of usul al-Fiqh, I follow your arguments and they do have a logic, but I’m afraid Troubles, until you reach the level of the well-qualified and experienced scholars, I will have to take their fatawa over yours, for the time being anyway! Although I really appreciate you taking time, when you challenge what I say, to spend time on the details as it makes me think more and also go back to my books to check things in more detail too. Jazak Allah khairan.
I look forward to part 2!
And Assalamu alaykum to you too he_love 21!
The reason I said he would be a murtad the next day was because if his intention is, as you say, to just become a Muslim for the day to get married, that means that his intends is to leave Islam the day after and he is therefore intending to become a murtad. It doesn’t matter whether he is a good man and avoids drinking, pork and gambling, that isn’t what makes someone a Muslim. Belief in Allah as the only god and in Muhammed (peace be upon him) as His Messenge, and submission to their commands in the heart, actions, and words is what makes someone a Muslim. A murtad is someone who denies that. In Islamic terms to be a murtad, as you know, is worse than to be a non-believer who hasn’t yet been guided. And a hypocrite is too, as that is someone who is saying something they don’t believe.
I do sincerely pray that this man will see the light and be guided (you say he is a good man, and a good man before Islam will be a good Muslim too). It’s a very special time when that moment does come. I remember the moment I first realized I had become a Muslim, it was quite overpowering and a little scary too, realizing what the implications of it were and wondering if I could I cope with them all! But I also do sincerely pray that if he doesn’t, that you will both find the strength not to go ahead with this marriage; and that maybe you showing that level of commitment to your religion will help him see the seriousness of the matter, and maybe that will be the key to open his heart! Insha Allah!
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
I'm sorry but you sound like the damn pope,
No wonder no one likes you, and you still discussing religion. Why is it that poeple who don't believe in religion seem to FANATICALY try to disprove religion?
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
I thought the whole beauty of Islam was that it was a very personal religion and that the Quran was the word of god, which could be read by anyone who spoke arabic.
You thought wrong and you've been told so many times but you're just closed minded and simply dumb. I will simplifiy it for you even more.
Let's use the US constitution as an analogy. There you have a set of rules written not so long ago by mere men and in a language that people speak to this day yet many parts of it are contantly challenged in courts and sent up to the supreme court for further clarification (interpretation). Why do you think that is? The answer is simple: They are rules that are meant to be folowed and enforced. The can not be left to each person to individually interpret them and act according to how he/she interpret them. It would be a total mess. How could any community survive if everyone interpreted the law in whichever way they liked?
This is not rocket science, the problem with people like you is that you are so close minded and so fanaticaly anti-religion you can't see straight.
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
I just really get irritated when people feel it's necessary to tell others how to practice their religion.
Again this is you stupidity talking. Do you get irritated when you get adivce from a Lawyer on a legal matter? I mean you can go to any Law library have read eveything there is about the Law.
None is telling anyone how to pratice Islam. But those who have the knowledge give their opinion on Islam's position on certain issue. You are free to disagree and seek advice else where or do whatever you want. But it would be stupid to ask every legal mind on the planet to keep their mouth shut and let us interpret the Law ourselves.....pretty dumb don't you think?
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Today's society is much different. If a man who is open to all religions and not prejudice marries a woman is a believer in Islam -- and they together agree to raise their child in her religion -- where is the harm?
Just like the Law and the Constitution. You can disagree but you can not act against it becasue you disagree with it. You can't go doing whatever you like becasue in your view you think it's harmless and Ok. You first need to change the Law, you can lobby the government and try to convince them to change or amend the Law. Quran is the word of God, god ahead start lobbying
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Anyway, I'm sorry but you are ovestepping your bounds in lecturing other muslims about Islam. If this was someone who was thinking about converting, it would be different. But you are just imposing your interpretation of your religion on another person. And that's one thing that I always admired about Islam -- that you DON'T do that.
Again she is merely sharing her knowlege and you are free to disagree but you can not ask people to not give their opinion just because you don't like them.
Let's face it Expat, you don't know that she is "imposing her interpretation" at the matter of fact you don't have a clue. You just don't like it, period. If you have a different interpretation post it or shut up
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Troubles101!
I look forward to part 2!And Assalamu alaykum to you too he_love 21!
The reason I said he would be a murtad the next day was because if his intention is, as you say, to just become a Muslim for the day to get married, that means that his intends is to leave Islam the day after and he is therefore intending to become a murtad. It doesn’t matter whether he is a good man and avoids drinking, pork and gambling, that isn’t what makes someone a Muslim. Belief in Allah as the only god and in Muhammed (peace be upon him) as His Messenge, and submission to their commands in the heart, actions, and words is what makes someone a Muslim. A murtad is someone who denies that. In Islamic terms to be a murtad, as you know, is worse than to be a non-believer who hasn’t yet been guided. And a hypocrite is too, as that is someone who is saying something they don’t believe.
I do sincerely pray that this man will see the light and be guided (you say he is a good man, and a good man before Islam will be a good Muslim too). It’s a very special time when that moment does come. I remember the moment I first realized I had become a Muslim, it was quite overpowering and a little scary too, realizing what the implications of it were and wondering if I could I cope with them all! But I also do sincerely pray that if he doesn’t, that you will both find the strength not to go ahead with this marriage; and that maybe you showing that level of commitment to your religion will help him see the seriousness of the matter, and maybe that will be the key to open his heart! Insha Allah!
asalamualaykum new comer.any way I just say thank to you for all your comment any way it is add my knowledge about Islam.I appreciate if you pray with me too for him to really get light and guide to become real muslim.I understand that you just comment and make rules in Qoran still the line,hopefully we still keep update.
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
elmagnoon, automatic, whatever username you invent next - i never read your post so save your typing rants for someone who will give you the attention you so desperately crave.
That's why you remain stupid after all this time 
. If you'd paid attention to what I've written you would've opened your mind and broadned your knowledge 
. But that's OK... I won't give up on you just yet., You may be a slow learner but I've had worse
[This message has been edited by gobi79harry (edited 15 May 2005).]
Just A question , and who told u that the embassy will even give u a visa without some papers u have to do it , that if we avoid the reaction of this family which may make a politicaly problem between the US and Egypt cz of some crime ????
Mr nevermind , u r so wonderfull man and u r great and u r happy with ur life , why don't u let others explane to this poor guy what should he do cz it's their country not ur America ???
sit in a dry space and read , and if u have a comment u can put it in a glass of water and drink it so u will feel calm .....
if the problem will be in America then u can say these wonderfull advices , but since it'll be in Egypt so let the ppl who know well talk about it
have a nice day
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Troubles101!I of course bow to your superior knowledge of the Qur’an, especially as someone who has nearly completed memorizing it...how much more do you have to do? (That is something I am so envious of and, among many other things is something I really need to do more work on!) And of course to your superior knowledge of Arabic, by the way, what did you mean by “Ursah Kafirun”? As I do have some knowledge of the bases of usul al-Fiqh, I follow your arguments and they do have a logic, but I’m afraid Troubles, until you reach the level of the well-qualified and experienced scholars, I will have to take their fatawa over yours, for the time being anyway! Although I really appreciate you taking time, when you challenge what I say, to spend time on the details as it makes me think more and also go back to my books to check things in more detail too. Jazak Allah khairan.
My arabic is a free gift I got by being born here, so the only reward I take is by useing it in good way, however you get double reward as you learn it as well, so who should envy the other now?
Forgive my typing mistakes, I meant to say "Surah"
Newcomer, did you do hajj or Umrah before?
Would that all would use their gift so wisely! Sadly my Arabic studies are on hold for a number of reasons, one of them being the lack of availability of a female teacher who can teach using a methodology that will lead me to be able to do more than chant ÅÚÑÇÈ till the cows come home and sit passively listening to them explaining texts that they often couldn’t read themselves without resorting to a dictionary!
Alhamdu lillah, I was privileged to do Umrah two years after I accepted Islam, and that was an amazing experience. So now I am waiting to meet the conditions to be able to do Hajj, insha Allah one day! How about you? I hear it is very expensive to go from Egypt now.
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum Troubles101!Would that all would use their gift so wisely! Sadly my Arabic studies are on hold for a number of reasons, one of them being the lack of availability of a female teacher who can teach using a methodology that will lead me to be able to do more than chant ÅÚÑÇÈ till the cows come home and sit passively listening to them explaining texts that they often couldn’t read themselves without resorting to a dictionary!
Alhamdu lillah, I was privileged to do Umrah two years after I accepted Islam, and that was an amazing experience. So now I am waiting to meet the conditions to be able to do Hajj, insha Allah one day! How about you? I hear it is very expensive to go from Egypt now.
Wa Alaikum assalamu wr wb,
Yes it's very expensive doing Hajj at least 20 thousands or something close and reach to above 50, that was the last I heared.
I didn't do Hajj not Umrah, can't afford the first yet but will do the later soon Insh'Allah .
The reason I asked, you prayed for my health before and I wanted to find something precious to pray for to happen for you and I thought Hajj would be very precious to you Insh'Allah.
As for Arabic , if there anything I can do to help, I will be glad to. How is your speaking? I don't know for how long you been in Egypt but I guess not less than 3 yrs.
What I need to learn in fusha are functional skills as fusha is used in Arabic countries for reading, writing, and listening; the latter I get a fair amount of practice at but it’s the first two skills I need. For speaking I need amiyyah! Part of the problem too is that I have been learning Arabic on and off for several years, from before I came to Egypt, and I am bored with the same old process; I need an inspiring (female) teacher. I guess I am asking for too much, particularly with my limitations on time and funds! So I guess I should ask you to add that to your prayers behind the Hijr too!
quote:
Originally posted by newcomer:
Too true that would be precious...but I am going to ask you to do it when you do your Umrah and that you go inside Hijr Ismail to do it! And you should also pray for your neighbour too as I wouldn’t have had the chance for this gift but for him!What I need to learn in fusha are functional skills as fusha is used in Arabic countries for reading, writing, and listening; the latter I get a fair amount of practice at but it’s the first two skills I need. For speaking I need amiyyah! Part of the problem too is that I have been learning Arabic on and off for several years, from before I came to Egypt, and I am bored with the same old process; I need an inspiring (female) teacher. I guess I am asking for too much, particularly with my limitations on time and funds! So I guess I should ask you to add that to your prayers behind the Hijr too!
Did you try Egyptian female friends? You can even find them online who would exchange languages with you.
Well those are 2 prayers now, So I guess I owe you one ... passing this school year is something I'm dying to see *hint hint*
My very first introductions to Islam were through the Muslims I met out in the bars and discos! But they taught me a very valuable lesson, to differentiate between the ideals of Islam and the realities of the Ummah. They could tell me what Islam said about so many issues, but then would always then admit that they weren’t a good Muslim. They also added after that though that insha Allah, one day they hoped they would be! One day, after all my questioning, I realised that I had become a Muslim, despite myself. I didn’t want that to happen, I was only asking about it to understand it. I didn’t want to make changes to my lifestyle, I was quite happy the way I was. But when the last piece had been put into the jigsaw and I could see the picture as a whole, not as a lot of separate disconnected parts, and I realized that I believed in Islam as a deen, it was time to start acting on my belief and fill in the gaps in my knowledge. And I’m still trying to do that now. May Allah make that journey easy for all of us who are seeking knowledge sincerely!
However I would like to point out that there have been what I found to be hurtful remarks towards other posters. People calling others stupid and so on just because their opinions are different. Why must we resort to name calling and putting others down, just because they say something that isn't correct in your eyes? Say what you have to say, but can't we be a little more respectful?
Yes Goby, Arabs went as far as Spain and south of France.
In Spain , they built the most civilised democracy of our modern time. A parliament that was based propotion representation ( all sections of society were included according to their percentage ).
Moslems also were excellent traders, translators and universal sailers. They were the first foreigners to get to Northern Europe ( Green Land & Iceland ) in the 6th/ 7th centuries )
They also built the wonderful Al Hambra in Spain.All moslims were one country ruled by one person and in each country they had a ruler ( Khalifa ).
This was the most glorious history in our modern time.
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Goby, you wrote:
I learned about Turkey banning women from wearing head scarfs, and the difficulties of the muslim women of Malaysia getting a divorce. I was also unaware that muslims don't eat Pork, I thought that was only a jewish practice. . Maybe I will convert, but I don't know as of yet. If I do, my reason won't be just to marry the woman I love. I would do it for me, because I want to. Besides, it seems like a healthy life style.
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What you stated above was true, Goby, but the scarf issue in Tukey was demanded by the EU, as one of so many conditions imposed on Turkey if joined the EU..!
A moslem woman can divorce her husband as much as a husband can divorce his wife anywhere. But divorce is not desired in Islam, and considered as a last resort.
I found this site to be easy to understand and you can meet with newly converts as well. www.convertToislam.com ( there are many other similar sites)
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Goby, you wrote:
One of my concerns is ,will i be accepted. Being that I'm white and would just becoming a muslim. I wouldn't want to be mistaken as a nonmuslim on the journey to mecca and get killed by a radical muslim thinking I was a white christian with a muslim wife. Or some crazy thing of that nature. I hope you all understand what I am trying to say.
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There are 1000's of white people who convert every year.Something that we, moslem, love and look forward to.
I occasionaly attend these conversion event in the London central mosque. You can not believe the joy that other moslems do express, often joy with tears.
You would be very welcomed and very safe among other moslems, Goby.
As for Mecca, your fear has no bases. There are millions from all over the universe who perform hajj every year.Moslems do not care for colours, race or origin. Just moslem.
Goby, you are very welcome.
[This message has been edited by salama (edited 27 May 2005).]
And let me tell you a small story that happened to me not long a ago. I had this friend of mine wich was wearing hijab. (scarf to cover her hair). But one day I met her and she had taken it off (and for muslims its actually a big step to take it off) and i asked her why she took it off. She said people were staring at me and guys were looking at me with nasty looks.
Whats wrong with what she did wasnt that she took her hijab off. But why she took it off. Cause when you wear it you wear it just for God, and nobody else. By wearing it you tell the whole world, what matters to you is GOd and his will.
And my point with this story is that you will meet many people on your way, some muslims who are really bad and some who are good. But remember always. To be a muslim is not about those people, its about YOU and your relationship with God.
wish you the best,
Sara
I was so happy to read your post and to see that you have started to look beyond the propaganda and are trying to find out what makes Islam the fastest growing religion in the world, or so they tell us! Whether that is a fact or not, it is a fact that very many westerners are now learning more about Islam and making the choice to follow it; and they are on the whole intelligent thinking people, not just doing it blindly for some external perceive benefit. What is interesting is that I hear that the majority of people who are coming to Islam are women, which flies in the face of the stereotype of Islamic oppression of women!
As you are finding out, there are many contradictions between Islam, as is given in the Qur’an and as taught by the Prophet (peace be upon him) and what is happening amongst the Muslims. Basically Islam is the way of life Allah has told us to follow, but then He gave us free will to choose, and based on this He will know if we were true followers of His Religion or not. Due to this free will people make choices that are not always in line with the Islamic teaching, and they are entitled to do that as they take the responsibility for their actions. (However it is a Muslim’s duty if he sees someone going astray to give timely wise advice, if they can!)
One of the most difficult things, particularly in the beginning of your journey to learn about Islam, will be to separate between cultural practices and Islamic practices and where to look for the soundest opinions and advice, that will come with time. Just keep reading and look for good sincere, knowledgeable people to talk to, and if your intention is sincerely to find the truth Allah will guide you. In a Hadith Qudsi (a Sacred Hadith, which was something the Prophet said that was communicated to him by Allah, although not necessarily in these specific words) Allah said: “And if he draws near to me a hand’s span, I draw near to him an arm’s length; and if he draws near to Me an arm’s length, I draw near to him a fathom’s length; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.”
As you are finding, there are many things that are part of Islam that you have heard of from Christianity and Judaism; that is because they are all religions revealed by the same God, Allah. He sent different prophets at different times, to different people, guiding them in the way that suited their time, circumstances, until He revealed Islam, His last and final revelation for all people until the end of time. When I was learning I, like you, found many things easy to accept because they made sense, were logical, and were already things that were part of my culture in terms of what is the correct way to treat people and live a healthy life. There were some things that I found difficult, that didn’t make sense at first, but when I eventually saw them as part of a whole social system that if people followed would improve life and rid society of many of its problems, they fell into place, even if at first it would be difficult to follow.
As to how you would be regarded as a white Muslim on Hajj...you wouldn’t be able to go to Mecca unless you were a Muslim! So no-one there will make that mistake. And as I mentioned in other places on this thread, being a Muslim is not just saying the declaration of faith, it’s believing it in your heart and showing it in your actions too. So if you did that other people would not make that mistake, as they will see by your actions and words that you are a Muslim. There will always be bigots and idiots who will try to cause problems, but that is where faith comes in to strengthen you and protect you. But generally, if you do decide to accept Islam you will be well received, everybody loves to hear a convert’s story!
There are several different translations/interpretations of the Qur’an in English, some of them are better than others, just realize that in any translation from a foreign language you can never get the exact same picture as the original, just the translators best effort. If you contact your nearest mosque they should be able to help you. You can find out how to contact them through this link: http://www.islamicfinder.org/index.php?lang=english Or I hear that CAIR are giving away free Qur’ans in the States at the moment; you can contact them through this link: [URL=https://www.cair-net.org/explorethequran/default.asp[/URL] (They don’t say which translation/interpretation they are giving away, but my guess is that it would be the Yusuf Ali one, which is a popular one.)
If you have any more questions, don’t hesitate to ask!
[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 28 May 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by salama:
Goby,My British husband and I did not have this ache, as we both decided that he will convert prior to seeing my family.
[This message has been edited by salama (edited 14 May 2005).]
Hi Salama,
Sorry I am quoting an old post of yours, but I've been checking the net for some advise about foreigners marriage, etc. Would appreciate if you can help me. My boyfriend is also British and will be coming to Cairo in sha allah within the next couple of months so we can get married. He will convert here. However, as he will be here for just one week and the this involves getting many family members from outside Egypt for the wedding, I need to know what exactly needs to be done and how long will everything take. How long will the certificate that shows he converted to Islam from Al Azhar take? And then how long will all the paperwork take to register the marriage in el shahr el akari take? does he need to do anything with the Embassy here, knowing that he is NOT a resident in Egypt.. Am I missing anything else?
Sorry I have lots of questions, but I have been away from Egypt for a while as well and never got married before.. Thanks a million..
[This message has been edited by Caramella (edited 12 September 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Caramella:
Hi Salama,
Sorry I am quoting an old post of yours, but I've been checking the net for some advise about foreigners marriage, etc. Would appreciate if you can help me. My boyfriend is also British and will be coming to Cairo in sha allah within the next couple of months so we can get married. He will convert here. However, as he will be here for just one week and the this involves getting many family members from outside Egypt for the wedding, I need to know what exactly needs to be done and how long will everything take. How long will the certificate that shows he converted to Islam from Al Azhar take? And then how long will all the paperwork take to register the marriage in el shahr el akari take? does he need to do anything with the Embassy here, knowing that he is NOT a resident in Egypt.. Am I missing anything else?
Sorry I have lots of questions, but I have been away from Egypt for a while as well and never got married before.. Thanks a million..
[This message has been edited by Caramella (edited 12 September 2005).]
Sorry dear she has been banned for verrrry good reasons!
Please direct your question to some other username!
well to anyone who can help me then.. I am checking the British embassy website anyway, but more detailed info. esp. the time such paperwork take in Cairo would be appreciated.. Thanks..
quote:
Originally posted by Paint Me As I Am:
...........................................I didn't know u had to have a paper saying ur muslim.. I did my conversion many years ago and the Iman never gave me any paper to say i was Muslim.. Is this paper neccessary to have when u marry in another country?????
Salam........Jannah
I know for working purposes in many Gulf countries you need an official paper stating your faith, it goes onto your ID cards.
Plus if you want to enter Maccah I am sure there is extra paperwork for that. Go back to your Imam maybe there is some sort of help he can give.
quote:
Originally posted by gobi79harry:
I'm not trying to be stubborn about it, and I'm not acting like "I don't want to be Muslim just because..." That's not the issue at all. Infact I have even thought about it. The only reason why I would convert , would be for her, because I love her so very much. The Issue is, deep inside my inner beliefs would conflict with some of the rules of Islam. I wouldn't feel true to it or myself. There are some basic human rights and choices that would be taken away from me, and I believe woman should have all the same rights and respect as men. I haven't seen that in Islam. I have not completely made up my mind on the subject but for now this is how I feel.
Take Note here: you say you would only convert to islam becase you love her.Love is not a good reason why anyone should convert to islam.Converting to islam means submission to allah and allah only.If you dont feel in your heart and soul the true
belief and you have dont believe in clear proof then dont convert.
By the way Im new muslim lady of 37 found islam 5 months ago and it has been a struggle and believe me allah has tried and tested me in many ways.It is not until you have clear proof that allah is one then you can live your life in the straight way.step bt step i learn in islam and everyday the light is easier to follow. I suggest you start reading the quaran to understand the belief of islam. I hope you convert to islam as true believer in yourself.allah has shown me love and mercy and believe me when i say allah is merciful of the true believer it is true. Think on what i say love or convert if its love only i advise you let your egyption love go.