anyone care to share?
Laura
dont you think all there are more improtant things to give time for? many people here post anything at anytime just to post and i wonder what time means for them. iam sorry laura but even to think of joining to write in the forum u give is a waste of time and mind
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Monica:
The website and the forum Laura is suggesting...is loaded with enriching information about Egypt...Ancient, Modern, Politics...religion. social aspects...a lot to learn...
i mentioned about the topic she suggested itself & similar topics if you read carefully the inside of my message please
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
As far as the topless bathing thing goes, no comment.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by El Kadafi:
[B]
As far as the topless bathing thingB]
Where ..where...where
quote:
Originally posted by Skodalova:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Laura:
dont you think all there are more improtant things to give time for? many people here post anything at anytime just to post and i wonder what time means for them. iam sorry laura but even to think of joining to write in the forum u give is a waste of time and mind
Skodalova,
My interests vary tremendously, from the Occupation of Palestine to the butterlies that are on the endangered species list near St. Catherines.
Maybe you should take the time to research a poster a little more before you start critisizing. Don't most "responsible writers" do this? Or is your time "too valuable" for that.
Researching You I noticed you posted asking if you can copy information from this board legally on one of the threads trashing egyptian men and another similar thread concerning red sea romances you asked...and I quote..
"thats very very interesting and gives much information but i would like to ask you something!!
why are most men in this resorts area like this? i thankfully wait your answer"
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what is going on.
I do find this issue concerning, and hope that some might check out what has been posted so far and offer some opinions or suggestions.
Laura
[This message has been edited by Laura (edited 05 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Laura (edited 05 May 2004).]
I personally would not sun bathe topless and I don't particularly want the unsavoury and often withered private parts of other sunbathers on show but as I said it is hardly a critical issue on the scale of things.
[This message has been edited by Suta (edited 05 May 2004).]
When the advert ended and it showed you this was EGYPT....my mouth dropped.
The government is encouraging and actively promoting this fun-in-the sun image of its Red Sea resorts all over Europe.
Why are you so surprised ?
Anyway, one needs to only go to Stella del Mare in Ain Sochna during the Italian high-season to see a bunch of topless women sunbathing.
quote:
Originally posted by Suta:
While obviously this is a serious issue requiring indepth debate and urgent consideration,I think the Government of Egypt has alot more pressing matters to consider at present than topless tourists bringing down moral standards. The truth is this country needs tourism, it is its bread and butter. The Government knows that and if they start to place too many conditions on tourists coming here you will find that holiday makers may well choose an alternative destination for next years fortnight in the sun. It is their break away from their routine and their lives and let them do what they want to. That's what those particular holiday resorts are about anyway.I personally would not sun bathe topless and I don't particularly want the unsavoury and often withered private parts of other sunbathers on show but as I said it is hardly a critical issue on the scale of things.
[This message has been edited by Suta (edited 05 May 2004).]
We still have a dignity,right?
I do not think Tourism will stop if you ask tourists to respect your own culture or religion and if they really do not like that,then as an Egyptian for me they are not wlecome here.NO MATTER WHAT!
And IF Egyptians can't live without Tourrism then this is the real problem we should deal with.
You should be grateful for tourism. It is the single biggest revenue earner Egypt has at the moment.
If you can't bear the site of such tourists, don't go to such resorts. It really is quite simple. There are plenty of beaches in Egypt where the seas are full of men frollicking, enjoying the sun and the water while the women sit fully covered under a sun umbrella. This seems more your scene.
quote:
Originally posted by Ahmad1:
We still have a dignity,right?I do not think Tourism will stop if you ask tourists to respect your own culture or religion and if they really do not like that,then as an Egyptian for me they are not wlecome here.NO MATTER WHAT!
quote:
Originally posted by Suta:
So the dignity of your country rests on the behaviour of a few tourists who take their kit off in public while they are on holiday? Give me a break will you. What's dignified about more than half the population living beneath the poverty line? What's dignified about the alarmingly high rates of illiteracy? What's dignified about children being forced to beg on the streets to supplement their family's already paltry income? What's dignified about a government who is rife with corruption and whose members feather their own nests than really work for the good of the country?You should be grateful for tourism. It is the single biggest revenue earner Egypt has at the moment.
If you can't bear the site of such tourists, don't go to such resorts. It really is quite simple. There are plenty of beaches in Egypt where the seas are full of men frollicking, enjoying the sun and the water while the women sit fully covered under a sun umbrella. This seems more your scene.
If you were saying that to someone lives in place where his cultrue or religion has no problem with nudity then I would say you have point.but in Egypt, this act goes against the traditions and religions of Egyptians.
Your talk about poverty in Egypt is intersting. Do you think those naked women will solve our economic problems?was our economy worse before they start showing up here?
There much better ways that government can use to help the people and nudity im sure will never be one of them .
I really do not know if we are going to give up everything including our religion and culture what will be left to make us call ourselfs Muslims, Christians or Egyptians?. If you start going this way then it'snot only religion to lose but even the mere human principals. now we speak about nudity tomorrow may be sex tourism then perhaps some drug dealing and the whole "anything for money" wont stop. and that's all for the sake of feeding our people which wont work either.ypu make abig problem trying to solve another.
quote:
Originally posted by Suta:
So the dignity of your country rests on the behaviour of a few tourists who take their kit off in public while they are on holiday? Give me a break will you. What's dignified about more than half the population living beneath the poverty line? What's dignified about the alarmingly high rates of illiteracy? What's dignified about children being forced to beg on the streets to supplement their family's already paltry income? What's dignified about a government who is rife with corruption and whose members feather their own nests than really work for the good of the country?You should be grateful for tourism. It is the single biggest revenue earner Egypt has at the moment.
If you can't bear the site of such tourists, don't go to such resorts. It really is quite simple. There are plenty of beaches in Egypt where the seas are full of men frollicking, enjoying the sun and the water while the women sit fully covered under a sun umbrella. This seems more your scene.
Given your train of thought Suta, maybe opening up brothels in Ethiopia would be a great solution to feeding the hungry.
And by the way, this nudity, semi-nudity is hardly confined to resorts. It's everywhere in the Red Sea areas.
Laura
If you were intelligent enough you would see that I am not endorsing nudity on beaches, personally I find it a little obscene. I am simply stating that Egypt has far bigger problems to address than the nudity of a few lousy tourists. Whether Egypt likes it or not, it needs tourism to contribute to its growing economic deficits.
quote:
Originally posted by Suta:
Laura, you clearly wouldn't understand my train of thought if it ran over you. Your retort makes no sense whatsoever. You might like to elaborate on how my comments could be construed as suggesting using prostitution to tackle poverty. Are you really that dumb?If you were intelligent enough you would see that I am not endorsing nudity on beaches, personally I find it a little obscene. I am simply stating that Egypt has far bigger problems to address than the nudity of a few lousy tourists. Whether Egypt likes it or not, it needs tourism to contribute to its growing economic deficits.
Maybe if you spent less time in your "sleeper compartment" you might have picked up on it. It was quite clear. Morals...Plain and simple. Sorry if I also question your "intelligence".
And regarding Islam: is there anywhere written, that you have to tell the "unbelievers" that they should not do things they normally do, because you are a muslim and must not see what they are doing?
I mean, come on: how many egyptians are looking satellite TV and how many egyptian men look the "special" channels from Russia, Poland, Italy or from whereever to see what they want to see? And how many women might do it when noone is at home? What do you think how many thousands of "special" magazines are brought into Egypt because there is a market for it. And what is so bad if children see how human beings look naturally without clothes? It's part of the parents responsibility in education to teach them the difference about what other people do and what they for themselves should do to respect themselves.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Let me ask those of you who live abroad...have any of you seen the TV advertisements for "Red Sea Riviera"? I saw one in the UK. It showed: women in bikinis swimming with dolpins, a red ferrari, poolside/hotels, a beach, the sea, close up of a woman in bathing suit and high heel focusing on her legs.When the advert ended and it showed you this was EGYPT....my mouth dropped.
The same thing happened to me when I saw those ads - they are incredible.
I think one of the problems is that many people who go for a package holiday in some Red Sea resort are not particularly interested in Egypt and don't know much about it.
They go there because it's sunny, beautiful and relatively cheap. Many of them don't waste a thought on the culture of the country they are visiting. It could be anywhere as far as they are concerned.
I once spent a month in Tunisia working for a travel agent, staying in lots of different hotels and I was pretty shocked at the attitude of the tourists I watched there. Many of them were wearing clothes that would have been regarded as extremely provocative even in a European city.
They were not at all interested in the country or the culture - apart from a guided tour to the local souq to buy some souvenirs - and their attitude was seriously getting on my nerves; they were ignorant and demanding.
Guess it's the same in every resort, be it in Egypt, Spain, the Carribbean or whereever ...
Laura
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 23 May 2004).]
and the point - which Dalia is also making - is you can't have it BOTH ways. you can't reprimant tourists for acting like it's the "riviera" when the country's government is promoting its resorts that way... it's not as if it's promoting itself as a conservative islamic culture, IS it? My god, they don't even show scuba diving in those commercials, just sun, beach, and women in bikinis.
the resorts and the govt are ALLOWING the toplessness to go on. this isn't happening in public beaches but resort beaches owned by the hotels. they are private beaches.
There is a good reason you don't see ANY topless women in any poolside in any hotel in Cairo.
if you don't like it, boycott or protest the 5 five star hotel chains. write to the Tourism Board. But stop complaining about "morals" of other people.
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:if a europen woman is topless on a private resort beach, it doesn't mean it's an open invitation for any egyptian man who is a staff member to come up her, and try to get her into bed, to touch her or to harrass her?
I personally don't like topless bathing at all, but I have a number of female friends who love it and find it quite normal. None of them would think that bathing toplessly equals an invitiation for sex.
That said, I heard on numerous occasions that there are almost no cases of harrassment on nude beaches ...
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 05 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by katrina:
you gotta be kidding, jutta! Seeing a naked woman on a beach is educational for children? This is a great reminder of some rediculous education some people did by letting their children drink alchohol at home so they know their "norm" instead of passing out in a ditch after a party without knowing this "norm".... How about simply teaching about phisiological and social harm of drinking...How about teaching children values and instill goals, different interests, developing kids as way to prevent from attending such parties and getting drunk? And if they do end up, to keep their head on their shoulders?In your educational case, girls could easily grow up and think it is nothing obscene to go and participate in bikini and thong contests at bars, wet t-shirt competitions in Florida, and consider stripping occupation as a "normal" way to earn money. Insanity...and honestly, scary to let children grow up in an environment and society that accepts such norms...
How about teaching children to save a bit of their purity, have more pure and innocent childhood, this is the responsibility of parents. There are atonomy books to learn about human body. Parents should establish trust with children and answer their questions regarding human phisiology and sexuality, but not promote and certinaly not encourage and show acceptance of promiscuity.
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 05 May 2004).]
I have a totally different opinion here.
Maybe because of a totally different cultural background. I know a lot of people who were raised up in families in which it is absolutely normal, that the children see their parents naked and it has never done any harm to them: totally opposite. They learned that this is nature and its good like it is. And I would not justify only one of them as a person without any moral. It is just a "normal" thing. And noone would think about as anything to doubt or bad. For example you have a (I dont know how it is exactly called in English) "nudity culture" in Europe since more than hundred years. They are people who just like to walk around like God made them. But I think you can not make a direct link to an immoral education of their children.
And I think you can not compare the "alcohol-tasting" with that. Alcohol is a drug when it is been drank too much. But also here: there are serious studies from Medical Universities who tell us, that one glass of red wine each day is a very good medicine about several illnesses. The doctor of my own grandma (83) recommend her to drink a glass of it each day because its good for her blood. But still you have to teach the children the difference between something is good in a small quantity and bad in a big quantity.
And from a psychological point of view: the more you teach children, that something is forbidden, the more they will try it, because they want to know whats so "extremely bad" about it. And the more you are telling them that something is bad, the more interesting it will be.
Why do you think that some children (who has the money) are spending their whole pocket money to buy magazines with naked women? Because its forbidden by home. They want to know why. And because they can not see their sisters, mother etc. naked.
I think it's harsh to judge people "promiscuity" because they are thinking, living more free. It has absolutely nothing to do with moral standard.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Monica:
IT is a matter of CULTURE!!!How do you feel if someone asks to change your culture, completely???
It is obvious that it is engrained in you!!
wether it is wrong or right is not the issue it is the CULTURE.
Monica, I know that and you are right. But we all have to beware, that the world is changing everyday. And if two or more cultures come together for whatever reason, there have to be compromises. Everywhere. So if someone is claiming that tourists should have more respect of the moral standards and culture of a country they visit, you can also say, that a country who wants to earn money out of mass-tourism has to accept that there will be a "somehow" influence on their own culture by the different cultures who visit the country. It will be always a double sided effect.
It's the same with teaching children: you can not teach them the risks of AIDS without telling them something about sexual relationships. And you cant teach a girl how enjoyable a marriage could be, without telling them something about sex (if you not want to talk only about the platonic kind of love).
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 30 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by El Kadafi:
Respect towards Islam? Everybody knows that Third World countries treat their own people like **** and worship foreigners when it comes to tourism. It is a disease. If you want to complain about it tell them you're European or American, they will actually take you seriously.As far as the topless bathing thing goes, no comment.
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
sorry Laura, but that's almost suggesting the same old crap we hear about you have to cover yourself because men have urges. if a europen woman is topless on a private resort beach, it doesn't mean it's an open invitation for any egyptian man who is a staff member to come up her, and try to get her into bed, to touch her or to harrass her
I’m not suggesting that at all. I talked of the double standard of enforcing “morality codes” by local police. I might also add that if an Egyptian woman went to the beach and took off all her clothes and laid on a beach chair, she would be arrested I am sure. If I am wrong, someone please correct me on this.
quote:
and the point - which Dalia is also making - is you can't have it BOTH ways. you can't reprimant tourists for acting like it's the "riviera" when the country's government is promoting its resorts that way... it's not as if it's promoting itself as a conservative islamic culture, IS it? My god, they don't even show scuba diving in those commercials, just sun, beach, and women in bikinis.
I agree, and I will include this information in some letters I will be writing addressing this issue.
quote:
the resorts and the govt are ALLOWING the toplessness to go on. this isn't happening in public beaches but resort beaches owned by the hotels. they are private beaches.
I have to disagree with you here. I was in Sharm El Sheikh for a week. My husband and I were checking out many areas for future visits and possibilities of buying property there. We went to several of the public beaches and this was the trend there also. Actually public beaches are few, most hotel properties share beach access amongst themselves. They are open to anyone as there is no enforcement as to who can use them and can hardly be considered private.
quote:
if you don't like it, boycott or protest the 5 five star hotel chains. write to the Tourism Board. But stop complaining about "morals" of other people.
Why should I have to boycott the whole region, why can’t I complain about the moral issue? Maybe we just have totally different opinions on what is moral and what isn’t. Have you never taken issue with anything in your life you considered not moral?
ps Thanks Dalia I didn't know what UBB code meant.
[This message has been edited by Laura (edited 05 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Laura (edited 06 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Laura (edited 06 May 2004).]
Its not an issue if the Tourist respects the culture or not. The tourist probably heard from a friend that Hurgada/Sharm was great and that topless sun bathing was allowed. They fly directly into the Hurgada airport from abroad and have little time to learn about the previaling attitudes in Egyptian society.
In Egypt I cannot enter a Casino, but any foreigner can. Why is that? Why does he/she have more rights than me? Why is it that unwed tourists can book a hotel room yet I have to present a marriage certificate? This is the basic problem. Its not an issue of whether or not I am for topless sun bathers, gambling, or fournication. The issue is that they have more rights than us inside our own country.
Moreover, we have our own laws and constitution that we do not enforce or enforce selectively. Our laws afford us protection from wrongful imprisonment, wrongful searches, torture, free speech, right to protest, etc... Can anyone say that this is a reality?
We need laws that apply to anyone (Egyptian and Tourist alike) and we need to enforce those laws on everyone. Only then can we discuss the morality and regulation of public nudity.
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
My apologies for my answers appearing in your quote, am not that computer savy to have yet figured out how to pick apart each section for a neat looking reply.
It's kind of hard to read that way, though.
You don't need to be computer savy at all in order to quote something ...
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ubbcode.html
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 06 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by katrina:
Forbidden fruit is sweet, nobody argues about that. I am not preaching prohibition. I am talking about openness exercised with moderation and instilling values, in which parents play the key role. Maybe we should let little girls play from an early age with Barbies and Kens having their private parts exposed, too? Why do we need to have children grow up losing their childhood too early, learning porn too early?
Indeed there are many toys like this and I have never heard nor learned that this is anyhow harmful for the children. And his definitely NOTHING to do with porn. I am actually working in a kindergarden with many children from all over the world and the most of them (age of 4-7) know already the main things about the human body and their differnces. And they can explain to you what love means and where the children come from.
And these are just normal kids. Nothing else.
It is sad to see six-year old girls talking like 40-year old women asking for fake nails to be bought at Walgreens for them, having fake hair mounted on their little heads. They are little girls after all. [/QUOTE]
Of course they are. And it is like putting on a princess costume on carneval when they try to imitate the adults. Which is also, from a psychological side, completely normal. As children mostly learn by imitating what their parents are doing. If someone has a good relationship to the kids, it should not be a problem to point out the differences what is allowed within a family and what is not allowed in public. I grow up with seeing my parents naked, but I knew very early that it is not right in public and I would never do it.
No, it is not harsh to establish better norms in the society that would not appreciate bikini and thong contests but consider them as a bit lack of class and yes it is promescuity. [/QUOTE]
I think you can not judge wether it will be a "better" norm or not. And to wear a bikini has absolutely nothing to do with thong contests. These are completely different things. What you call "better norms" would mean a loss of freedom and loss of responsibility for themselves for millions of people all over the world.
It is indeed a bit of a difference in culture when children grow seeing families grow up naked [/QUOTE]
Of course it is. And no one has the right to judge them less moral just because of this art of growing up.
P.S. I meant hard liquor not wine. The analogy was made to illustrate that allowing to drink and learn the "norm" not to pass out is the same incorrect prevention mechanism as to buy Playboy for a teen before he does instead of teaching values and appreciation of a woman as a wonderful being in all aspects including romance rather than objectify her as a sex object.[/QUOTE]
The idea is right, but you oversee reality: In the age of electronic media and growing mass media in any kind you will not have a chance to prevent it that your children trying to get their own information from sources they find by themselves. What we have to try is to teach our children moral and ethics additionally to all the infos they will get from friends, school, internet, magazines, TV, radio, DVD, CD, Video, PC-Gaming and whatever more will come.
It's a huge responsibility and a very big task.
Or to endorse public nakedness as ok and normal and then next thing you know your own daughter is jumping out of her clothes and competes in her thong at a bar for money [/QUOTE]
Come on, this conclusion has no basis at all. Public nakedness has nothing to do with a lack of moral. And dancing for money has nothing to do with walking topless on a beach. Two totally different things.
As far as wine, there are better and healthier drinks for children such as MILK 
No need to rush their growing up [/QUOTE]
Oh please, dont mix up my words. I didnt talk about giving wine to children. But yes, nowadays we have to rush their growing. It's needed in this world.
Jutta, establishing a confidential and trusting dialogue between a parent and a child is crucial and necessary to teach many things. No argument there. To explain many things, including human sexuality and its value in a marriage. Marriage and human sexuality are wonderful and beautiful in the privacy of one's home in a union of two people. No need for public exposure
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 05 May 2004).][/QUOTE]
In the privacy of one's home ? Yes you are right. But dont compare different things: walking around naked in front of the children is something different than doing sex in front of the children. It has absolutely nothing to do with each other. Walking around topless on a beach has also nothing to do with making sex on the beach. this also has absolutely nothing to do with each other. And I think that is the most important thing to teach: not to have prejudices for other cultures, to differ between habits in other cultures and their own, and to make the right conclusions. In my personal opinion, this special point in raising children according to Islam leads to the opinion of so many man in the hotel resorts, that a woman who is topless on the beach is the same like a prostitute. And that is absolutely not true.
Why should the people of Egypt accept that sort of behavior? Because it brings money to the country? Well yes that maybe so, but it also receives a bad reputation because of the “gigolos” in the Red Sea areas. Like Monica said it is a matter of Culture….. if a man has been brought up to believe that a “decent” women doesn’t bare all, how can he have respect for one who does? It’s almost certain that these men are going to take on the attitude that the Government have……. Use the tourists for money! Do we all like that? Do we all think that should be encouraged?
So Suta you think that the Government has more pressing issues to consider than topless tourists bringing down moral standards? Well I think that “cleaning up the ****” is a good place to start! Then maybe the Red Sea boys would actually work hard for their living rather than prostituting themselves to tourists. Change has to start somewhere and I think gaining some self respect would be a good start for Egypt! Back to basics was a slogan used in England once….. can’t remember what for and don’t know if it worked or not, but it sounds good to me!
Ok so tourists want a break away from their routine lives? Well, if a break away from routine means taking off clothes and flashing their bits about, there are numerous resorts where they can do that. Why Egypt? (yes yes the government again!)
Egyptians should be grateful for tourism? Yes of course, but there are many types and one that includes respecting the culture of the people is the best tourism.
Ahmad1 I agree with you….. if Egypt can’t live without (topless/indecent) tourism, then that is the real problem to deal with.
Jutta3 asked if there was anything in Islam that states that we have to tell unbelievers that they should not do things they normally do. A Muslim must not accept the ways of an unbeliever, that’s as much as I can say now without checking exact details.
Ok, I don’t have much more time to post so I will include some links from a good Islamic website, that explains why some Muslim people especially (can't speak for any other religion or belief) have a problem with this lack of respect from Tourists!
This is an example of why Muslims must not watch nudity on TV let alone see it on the beach. Also an example of the responsibility that Muslim parents have to their children. So no it is not alright for Muslim children to be educated by this.
QUESTION
I live with my husband who insist on having cable and northamerican channels, which show so many things that is not acceptable for us as muslims, even the commercials is so revealing, no matter how hard i try, i still have to watch the TV, and also my children do too, what is the view of islam in my situation? i tried to convince him to cancel it but he refused. jazakum allah khair
ANSWER
On Cable there is channels that are completely prohibited and are considered major sins. They spread corruption within the household with the nudity, crimes, and so forth that is portrayed. The example of this is like he is bringing a woman like that in the house. The children will imitate them. There are channels in the middle. Some things are corrupt. If the wrong is more then it is closer to haram. The normal channels that have some quick commercials that can be abstained from while still watching news and beneficial programs are permissible. Parental restrictions can also be used to cancel some channels. There must be continuous discussion with him and advice. If that does not help and he continuous to bring nude and corrupt channels, then she has to go to a Muslim judge or Imam to arbitrate between them. It is better to raise her children away from him than to leave her children with this man and the corruption in their home. It is better to bring Jazira and other Arabic channels were the children could at least learn Arabic.
Some C&P from Islamonline which I know is about beauty pageants, but I think you should be able to understand what I am trying to say. If not I will post an explanation another day.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2001-05/08/article4.shtml
"Instead of Muslim countries racing to hold beauty pageants they ought to hold competitions [to discover] the woman who adheres to righteous principles best," Wassel said.
"This is what the Qur'an [Islam's holy book] encourages Muslims to do - to compete in adhering to good ethics and principles," Wasel said.
Egyptian tourist and fashion companies say that holding the annual event in Egypt, a major tourist destination, was likely to raise Egypt's international profile and attract more tourists to the foreign-currency starved nation.
Several members of parliament also questioned government officials over the show and said it was a ticket to "permissiveness" in Egypt because Islam, the country's main religion, strongly opposes all forms of nudity.
Wassel said beauty pageants in Egypt did not comply with the country's constitution. "The country's constitution stipulates that Islamic Sharia' [law] is a primary source for legislation," Wassel said.
"Such contests violate the Sharia', so we must stop them immediately."
Link for a question and answer from Islamonline regarding unbelievers and Muslims. I didn’t have time to find links to other sites as you can’t always trust some “Islamic” websites without checking them out thoroughly.
http://www.islamonline.net/QuestionApplication/English/display.asp?hquestionID=14138
Also anyone interested can research what Islam says about doing immoral things for money…… just because you are hungry doesn’t mean you should steal, or prostitute yourself etc etc etc So we shouldn’t be “grateful” for the type of tourism that takes place in Red Sea areas whether it brings income or not!
[This message has been edited by Nefertiti (edited 06 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Saladin:
We need laws that apply to anyone (Egyptian and Tourist alike) and we need to enforce those laws on everyone. Only then can we discuss the morality and regulation of public nudity.
Saladin, I think your point is right on target. There also seems to be a major problem though with the Tourism department, if they are promoting these areas in the way depicted.
Laura
Wallahi have missed your posts!!!! 
Laura
Ahlan! ahlan.........
it is a very thin line to walk between what is for each person the 'limit' of nakedness, as much as the 'limit' of a healthy qty of alcohol. Most argumentation here reminds me on the discussion about the safety belt, since it became mandatory in e.g. Austria. People would say: I know a man whose life got safed after having a car accident because he did not wear the belt, or someone who died because he did wear it... whereas it was cleary established then and is known very well today that the safety belt helps saving thousands of lives each year.
Yes a small amount of alcohol can be beneficial to some people, but to the majority it is not. Quran confirms that there may be some benefits in the use of alcohol, but the negative effects outweigh this benefit by far.
Surat Al Baqara, 219: They ask thee concerning intoxicants and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth God Make clear to you His Signs: In order that ye may consider
We don't have to discuss all the negative issues that come with alcohol for the health or persons and society - do we? to protect all the humans from this negative aspects alcohol is forbidden in Islam. When it comes to protect the majority of mankind, it does not work to pick out the few examples of people who actually can live without crossing the limits of what is healthy or beneficial.
Anything that is forbidden to humans is because to abstain from it will be better for us, and if don't obey, will hurt us.
and not in theory, but in practic: children do need simple guidelines, they get confused when you overload them with exceptions to the exception. When you walk in the streets with your child and you see a drunk man behaving in a bad way, you say: this man is drunk and this is very bad. you go to your sister and have a cup of wine or two, which is ok. you watch tv and see a naked woman, you say this is bad, then you go to the beach and take off your top. ??? it does not work this way.
small children do generally have a reply to any question! sometimes they will repeat the answer they heard earlier from somebody else more accurate than other times, but that does not mean they do understand, what they're saying or that they will remember what they say! You'll hear the same question again in a few years, when they're better prepared to understand the reply they get.
At times I would also see my parents naked, but I felt like this is not alright being only 5 years old, and the religious background of my family is zero. When I was like 8 they took a photo of me and my brother in the bathtub (with lots of foam though) and a plastic tub in our middle with our family dog in it, a nice funny family photo, but I tried very hard at this time to cover my not-existing breasts with that plastic tub, I felt ashamed in an environment that was teaching me that there is nothing to be ashamed of.
Did I stray away a little bit too far from the original topic? sorry.
salam, Karin
quote:
Originally posted by karinfarid:
and not in theory, but in practic: children do need simple guidelines, they get confused when you overload them with exceptions to the exception. When you walk in the streets with your child and you see a drunk man behaving in a bad way, you say: this man is drunk and this is very bad. you go to your sister and have a cup of wine or two, which is ok. you watch tv and see a naked woman, you say this is bad, then you go to the beach and take off your top. ??? it does not work this way.
It does work already, because this is mostly the way children are raised up in non-moslemic countries.
I just can get back always to the same point: when a child is growing up by knowing that nudity within the family is ok, but its not ok in public, this is the way it will believe in. As well as most people I know, just go swimming in a bathing suit, go to a mixed gender sauna naked, but will never ever have sex in public.
And children of course are much more intelligent and clever as we think of. They already understand at a very early age to differ between: a little bit is ok, too much is unhealthy. They learn when they try to eat 5 ice-creams and have their stomach aching after that :-)
When people, or rather a nation does not BELIEVE that it is ok to be parading nude in front of children, then they will NOT change their cultural beliefs.
It does not mean it is better or worse, it just means it is NOT in their beliefs!
We can give tons of examples and say if we are brought up in a jungle we will act like the animals etc..etc... we know that ...BUT.............what is the problem in accepting and respecting my culture when you come to my house ~ for example??? et's say I do not like your 'ways' so I will not come to your house...very simple...
But the problem would of course be there, when you come to my house for example, if someone in my house parades naked when the others are not...and THAT IS THE CONFUSION in Egypt, and regarding the subject matter!
quote:
Originally posted by Jutta3:
It does work already, because this is mostly the way children are raised up in non-moslemic countries.
I just can get back always to the same point: when a child is growing up by knowing that nudity within the family is ok, but its not ok in public, this is the way it will believe in. As well as most people I know, just go swimming in a bathing suit, go to a mixed gender sauna naked, but will never ever have sex in public.
And children of course are much more intelligent and clever as we think of. They already understand at a very early age to differ between: a little bit is ok, too much is unhealthy. They learn when they try to eat 5 ice-creams and have their stomach aching after that :-)
Jutta from what I can gather your husband is muslim you are not. If and when you have children, will you walk around the house naked? Will you allow then to go to other homes that consider this the norm? If you bring them to Egypt will you allow them (girls over the age of 5) to go topless at the beaches? Would you go topless at the beaches? If no, why?
Curious
Laura
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Just to take your reply one step further Monica:Jutta from what I can gather your husband is muslim you are not. If and when you have children, will you walk around the house naked? Will you allow then to go to other homes that consider this the norm? If you bring them to Egypt will you allow them (girls over the age of 5) to go topless at the beaches? Would you go topless at the beaches? If no, why?
Curious
Laura
I converted to Islam but I still doubting and have my problems with it and yes, I sometimes ask myself if it was right or not.
Yes, my husband is moslem and yes I know that we will have to face serious discussions about that.
Yes, I want to have that my children grow up naturally and do not have to fear something when they see someone naked. And I have to raised them like that because they will also make holidaytrips or picnics or whatever together with their grandparents who will walk just with a bathing suit or bikini in the garden of their home or on the beach. So this will be a problem. And yes, for me, it is normal if children see me coming out of the shower or lying in the bathtube.
And yes, as they will be raised up in Germany, they will have German non-muslim friends and they can go to their homes of course. But there you have the borderline: if the parents of their friends will be naked at home I will forbid them to go there. they should at least cover their private parts. And as I stated earlier, I will never go naked or even topless in public, only in the women's sauna.
And yes, at an age of 5 to 10 they can go topless at the beach, but only at the beach an nowhere else. And as I do it myself for example: I would even never go to the meals, even if its at the beach bar without putting on my clothes. And I will teach this to my children too. Why? Because I personally find it obscene for myself in public, but not in private and not within my family. My father still sees me naked sometimes when I am visiting him and there is nothing for me to be ashamed of: he is my daddy and its normal for me.
And because I try to respect the culture of a country I would not do it in Egypt. But this is my personal decision. I also wear the hijab when we visit his family in Upper Egypt.
Why do people expose themselves in public in the first place, anyway?
- because they are drunk?
- because they are sick in the head?
- because they are exhibitionists?
- because they are immoral?
- because they are lusty?
- because they are disgusty?
- because they are naturalists?
- because they are bored?
- because they can get away with it?
- because they think it's cool?
- because they think it's freedom?
- because they are total morons?
- because it is their culture?
- because they are spies?
- because they are looking for a spouse?
- because they are revolutionaries?
- because they need attention?
What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 06 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Monica:
Quizzzzzzzzz ..................Why do people expose themselves in public in the first place, anyway?
- because they are drunk?
- because they are sick in the head?
- because they are exhibitionists?
- because they are immoral?
- because they are lusty?
- because they are disgusty?
- because they are naturalists?
- because they are bored?
- because they can get away with it?
- because they think it's cool?
- because they think it's freedom?
- because they are total morons?
- because it is their culture?
- All of the aboveWhat do you think?
You can not generalize here Monica. I think, its absolutely clear, that Muslim can never understand that. But in fact most of it is a prejudice.
I can just repeat it: walking topless has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with being drunk or anything else. For most of the people this is just normal behaviour regarding their own cultural background.
And this is the same what I think about my own behaviour, regarding the fact that I was raised in the western world and have never heard of Islam before I was 16/17. And at that time I were teached, that Islam is the most cruel thing in the world.
So I think everyone is raised with too many prejudices regarding different cultures and religions and we should stop that.
I mean, what would you think, if someone judges muslim women who wear a hijab as "dump women who can not think by themselves and who have to follow what their husbands tell them without contradiction"???
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Monica:
Quizzzzzzzzz ..................Why do people expose themselves in public in the first place, anyway?
- because they are drunk?
- because they are sick in the head?
- because they are exhibitionists?
- because they are immoral?
- because they are lusty?
- because they are disgusty?
- because they are naturalists?
- because they are bored?
- because they can get away with it?
- because they think it's cool?
- because they think it's freedom?
- because they are total morons?
- because it is their culture?
- because they are spies?
- because they are looking for a spouse?
- because they are revolutionaries?
- because they need attention?What do you think?
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 06 May 2004).]
You left out:
Because they just got their new breast implants and want feedback.
haha
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 23 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
Sorry sorry..You just got me in a "David Letterman Top 10" mood Monica..haha
(thanks Katrina, its Monica's fault 
[This message has been edited by Laura (edited 06 May 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Saladin:
I think of the issue of topless sun bathers in a different way. It is a symptom of a problem that has existed in Egypt for a very long time: Preferential treatment of foreigners and the lack of respect that [b] Egyptians display for Egyptian law.Its not an issue if the Tourist respects the culture or not. The tourist probably heard from a friend that Hurgada/Sharm was great and that topless sun bathing was allowed. They fly directly into the Hurgada airport from abroad and have little time to learn about the previaling attitudes in Egyptian society.
In Egypt I cannot enter a Casino, but any foreigner can. Why is that? Why does he/she have more rights than me? Why is it that unwed tourists can book a hotel room yet I have to present a marriage certificate? This is the basic problem. Its not an issue of whether or not I am for topless sun bathers, gambling, or fournication. The issue is that they have more rights than us inside our own country.
Moreover, we have our own laws and constitution that we do not enforce or enforce selectively. Our laws afford us protection from wrongful imprisonment, wrongful searches, torture, free speech, right to protest, etc... Can anyone say that this is a reality?
We need laws that apply to anyone (Egyptian and Tourist alike) and we need to enforce those laws on everyone. Only then can we discuss the morality and regulation of public nudity.[/B]
[This message has been edited by katrina (edited 23 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Monica (edited 16 May 2004).]
then i saw a girl in a white bathing suit and that blew my theory out the door.
I did modelling but stopped a few years ago, one feature in newspaper in particular that I remember (and will never forget) I modelled bikinis. I'd never ever worn a bikini in my life.
Yet I am offended by women bathing topless.
One time in particular, at large pool at rear of Isis Hotel, I could see at other side of the pool bridge 2 women topless. I was shocked. Some Egyptian hotel workers did an about turn and walked back and spied on them. They're probably still standing there glued ot the spot.
I wouldn't dare wear a bikini/swim costume when on holiday in Egypt.
It just wouldn't feel right. I'd feel as though I'd be disappointing my Egyptian friends.
I don't approve of tourists topless or bottomless sunbathing in countries such as Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
Nefertitiiiiiiiii....welcome back ya bintiiiiLaura
Yes i came back! Just for a short while How are you!? How is hubby?
Hehe Monica did you know i was close or what
All Egypt ads I have seen show women in deep-cut bikinis sunning themselves.
From what I understand a lot of the hotel staff are students looking to make some money over the holidays. They are not used to see naked people and it shows. At least that's one of them told me, he said he was sick and disgusted of seeing naked women like that, that it was beyond obscene, that it was revolting for him and many others.
For me, it was a very uneasy feeling even to lay on the beach in a one-piece suit and covered with the matching sarong! there were a few Egyptian couples nearby, the woman completely dressed and veiled, and it just seemed cheap and insulting to them to show our bodies. The other girls took their tops off and wore string bikinis so they were practically naked, but I think for someone who soaks up the atmosphere of the place, there's no way you can go topless. I was ashamed to display my arms up to the elbows! No way am I going to the beach again in Egypt, it will be Cairo for me or sailing down the Nile. It made me feel really uneasy. The only days I really enjoyed wearing a swimsuit was when we went away diving on a boat by ourselves.
However, as long as there will be no rules to that effect, all people can do is foam at the mouth - or keyboard - without changing anything.
------------------
sandal_wood@hotmail.com
[This message has been edited by asiaq (edited 18 July 2004).]
[This message has been edited by asiaq (edited 10 July 2004).]
quote:
Originally posted by Cold one:
If we don't agree on some issue or situation then we avoid it, I'm sure there are enough beaches in Egypt, to let everybody do their own thing.
This made me chuckle and think.... If there are enough beaches in Egypt for everyone to do their own thing, and there are investors that feel there should be more modest beaches available for the modest Muslims of Egypt, and elsewhere, to enjoy, why the heck aren't there any decent hotels and beaches JUST for this purpose and just for this crowd? Not enough money to be made from this group of people perhaps? I mean good Lord people if you did it right you could even get all the Saudi and Kuwait money in there.....or could you?
[This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 31 May 2004).]
[This message has been edited by Debbie (edited 31 May 2004).]
In Egypt, using force to discipline children (and I don't mean anything too serious) is normal and part of the customs. Abroad you will go to jail and social services will collect your child.
The law in Egypt prohibits public nudity. The problem is that in the red sea they don't enforce (except maybe if an Egyptian girl went topless) so most foreigners dont know its illegal.
I believe it is a matter of conscience and also feelings of others.