but if you still face the rude remarks , just ignore.
unless if you were in a crowded place with people , you will have a good chance to spit on his face and do your best to make it look ugly enough - and you still can get away with it
I was just wondering how you would reccomend responding to rude remarks on the street in Cairo? I normally try to ignore it while fuming inside, but feel as though Im letting them get away with their insults?
I got a jilbaab on ebay and will try to avoid it by wearing that, would that work?
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
Hey girlies!"For girlies only - sorry didnt notice"
I was just wondering how you would reccomend responding to rude remarks on the street in Cairo? I normally try to ignore it while fuming inside, but feel as though Im letting them get away with their insults?
I got a jilbaab on ebay and will try to avoid it by wearing that, would that work?
insha'allah it would work gigli.
but if you still face the rude remarks , just ignore.
unless if you were in a crowded place with people , you will have a good chance to spit on his face and do your best to make it look ugly enough - and you still can get away with it
[This message has been edited by Humanized (edited 11 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Humanized:
insha'allah it would work gigli.
but if you still face the rude remarks , just ignore.
unless if you were in a crowded place with people , you will have a good chance to spit on his face and do your best to make it look ugly enough - and you still can get away with ithe he he he I like the way you think
[This message has been edited by Humanized (edited 11 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by mohsen1000:
and tel;l us how do you avoid getting raped in your own country? by the way what country is it ? and what is the percentage of raping there ?.. is that your turn to insult egyptians by asking stupied questions like this? ofcoursae you are asking to get help and you are not trying to hint that egyptian men are sude and give you bad remarks,, who will blame them a forigner women is in Egypt so it is a big deal...LOL
I know my country has a problem with rape and especially rape on children. What do want? Are you saying there is no such things as sexual harrassment on the streets of Cairo?
quote:
Originally posted by mohsen1000:
and tel;l us how do you avoid getting raped in your own country? by the way what country is it ? and what is the percentage of raping there ?.. is that your turn to insult egyptians by asking stupied questions like this? ofcoursae you are asking to get help and you are not trying to hint that egyptian men are sude and give you bad remarks,, who will blame them a forigner women is in Egypt so it is a big deal...LOL
Ramadan Kareem guys 
[This message has been edited by doudd (edited 11 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by doudd:
me too want an answer for mohsen' question.[This message has been edited by doudd (edited 11 October 2005).]
What would you like to know? The percentage of rape?
quote:
Originally posted by mohsen1000:
well I did not say it does not exist in Cairo , what I meant to say that: you can use same attitude you used to use in your own country to defend yousself aganiost more dnager and therats .. I think this should not be hard to do .. if you try to think.. or are you only trying to say egyptians have bad behviour
Even in my own country I dont wear provocative clothing. But on the streets of Cairo men do say appaling things even when Im walking with my fiance, which as would know does not happen for instance in London. I want to avoid this and simply asked for advise as to how to deal with it why it happens and blah blah bal without thinking as to why . If you dont want to answer my question no worries, go to the brainless me thread and bash away.
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
Even in my own country I dont wear provocative clothing. But on the streets of Cairo men do say appaling things even when Im walking with my fiance, which as would know does not happen for instance in London. I want to avoid this and simply asked for advise as to how to deal with it why it happens and blah blah bal without thinking as to why . If you dont want to answer my question no worries, go to the brainless me thread and bash away.
quote:
Originally posted by Karah_Mia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by gigli:
[b] Even in my own country I dont wear provocative clothing. But on the streets of Cairo men do say appaling things even when Im walking with my fiance, which as would know does not happen for instance in London. I want to avoid this and simply asked for advise as to how to deal with it why it happens and blah blah bal without thinking as to why . If you dont want to answer my question no worries, go to the brainless me thread and bash away.
LOL definitely! I was just wondering 'omg what will things be like for me in Egypt? Once you mention Latinos I thought 'oh if I can handle them, I can handle anyone!'. Sometimes the things they say, I wonder which sub human amobe raised this person??
[This message has been edited by nooralhaq (edited 11 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by mohsen1000:
and tel;l us how do you avoid getting raped in your own country?
Rape and lewd remarks are two entirely different things. 
Rape is a crime of violence that is not socially acceptable. Cat calls are a form of humiliation that seem to be socially acceptable (at least among men) in certain places. And as long as it's socially acceptable, women will have to find a way to avoid or at least minimize exposure to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
Rape and lewd remarks are two entirely different things.Rape is a [b]crime of violence that is not socially acceptable. Cat calls are a form of humiliation that seem to be socially acceptable (at least among men) in certain places. And as long as it's socially acceptable, women will have to find a way to avoid or at least minimize exposure to it.
[/B]
here where I am from when I hear the cat calls I just completely ignore it, it is much easier...however; I will admit now that I cover not only do I not hear anything but people will actually step aside and STARE at the white american freak who's all covered up.....oh well, can't have everything I guess....did you know I actually had one man in a grocery store once look at me (covered) and asked me, 'why do you wear this? Who is your God?'
LOL
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
here where I am from when I hear the cat calls I just completely ignore it, it is much easier...however; I will admit now that I cover not only do I not hear anything but people will actually step aside and STARE at the white american freak who's all covered up.....oh well, can't have everything I guess....did you know I actually had one man in a grocery store once look at me (covered) and asked me, 'why do you wear this? Who is your God?'
LOL
LOL! Actually, I'm glad they leave you alone. We've had some recent incidents of harrassment here against women who were covered, precisely because they were. 
quote:
Originally posted by mohsen1000:
what I meant to say that: you can use same attitude you used to use in your own country to defend yousself aganiost more dnager and therats ..
If you're a Western woman coming to Cairo you have no conduct of behaviour to deal with the harrassment on the streets because it doesn't exist in your homecountry.
When I first came to live in Egypt the harrassment would drive me insane and I felt very helpless because I couldn't come up with a "technique" to respond to it and I was asking similar questions - "How do you react? What's the best way to deal with it?" and so on. It has nothing to do with trying to make Egyptians look bad, so please don't be so defensive.
If you don't believe it's a problem go out with any foreign woman and follow her with a few steps distance while she takes a walk through Cairo and you will soon know what everyone is talking about ...
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 11 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Dalia:
No, mohsen, unfortunately it won't work.If you're a Western woman coming to Cairo you have no conduct of behaviour to deal with the harrassment on the streets because it doesn't exist in your homecountry.
When I first came to live in Egypt the harrassment would drive me insane and I felt very helpless because I couldn't come up with a "technique" to respond to it and I was asking similar question - "How do you react? What's the best way to deal with it?" and so on. It has nothing to do with trying to make Egyptians look bad, so please don't be so defensive.
If you don't believe it's a problem go out with any foreign woman and follow her with a few steps distance while she takes a walk through Cairo and you will soon know what everyone is talking about ...
Thank you. You said what I was *trying* to say, only much better. Yeah, there are some lewd remarks made here or there in America. But nothing like I saw in Cairo. We're just not used to it.
the prophet once told one of his wives: "there is nothing i can do to help you to please god"
I usually have my music on, and don't notice or listen to that
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
LOL! Actually, I'm glad they leave you alone. We've had some recent incidents of harrassment here against women who were covered, precisely because they were.
lovely...I just wish I could go to Sam's one day without people staring at me from behind racks of food. 
Many people are very nice though and will go out of their way to make eye contact, say hello, etc., I find TOO many African Americans try to say 'Salaam Alaykom' to me....which really throws me off. Although I did have a group of men standing around once staring at me and laughing
Which was not worse than the Mexican man in the grocery store who came up to me, put his face about 2 inches from mine and made KISSING noises while staring right at me.
quote:
Originally posted by Columbo:
People usually get what they deserve. You may call it destiny or fate but there is always a meaning to everything that happens to you. Try and find out. God sends you messages, will you ignore them?
quote:
Originally posted by 7aya:
no it won't work giggli. ive tried wearing everything and they still harrass me. i have many friends who are veiled and it still doesn't work. i know an american woman who tried covering and still she was getting bloody comments.
i've tried everything from being quiet to shouting to even hitting them with my bag! its one of the things that drive me crazy about egypt. it really really really makes me angry!!!!
at the moment one australian lady and two american ones are trying to make an awarenss campaign about sexual harrasment. they are trying to get funding from newyork. we've already had one discussion group, and inshallah will have more. so maybe you can join and help us turn this around.
if you want more information email me at yasminefathy@hotmail.com
Excellent you hit them with your bag?! ha ha ha ha I wish I could have seen that! I think that your awareness campaign is an excellent idea to stop men bahaving in this derogatory way towards women. I will mail you. It all starts with youth. I feel so disrespected and dirty when they say vile things! You are right it is sexual harassment. How does the law work in regards to this issue?
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
Excellent you hit them with your bag?! ha ha ha ha I wish I could have seen that! I think that your awareness campaign is an excellent idea to stop men bahaving in this derogatory way towards women. I will mail you. It all starts with youth. I feel so disrespected and dirty when they say vile things! You are right it is sexual harassment. How does the law work in regards to this issue?
by the way, what kinds of things are they saying??
quote:
Originally posted by 7aya:
karah, snoozin, and noor, believe me the sexual harrasment in egypt is a disaster. it will really get on your nerves even if you are the calmest person on earth! i bet the egyptians are even worse than the latios!
I'd prefer the harassment in Spanish - just sounds better.
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
by the way, what kinds of things are they saying??
Im sorry but other than sharmootah etc, I cant bring myself to say those words in public. But if someone said that to your mum, youd kill them
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
Im sorry but other than sharmootah etc, I cant bring myself to say those words in public. But if someone said that to your mum, youd kill them
well forgive me, what is sharmootah?
can anyone give me some examples of what I might hear when I get there? I like to be prepared for anything....it can't be THAT bad could it?? Is it bad names or sexual things or what?? By the way, how old are these guys, sounds like a bunch of kids that would do that.
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
well forgive me, what is sharmootah?
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
By the way, how old are these guys, sounds like a bunch of kids that would do that.
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 11 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nooralhaq:
[b] well forgive me, what is sharmootah?
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
By the way, how old are these guys, sounds like a bunch of kids that would do that.
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 11 October 2005).][/B][/QUOTE]
omgggggggg! Are you serious???!!??
If my son ever speaks like this I probably
kill him or have his father do it. (ok not seriously don't start attacking me for child abuse, figure of speech, figures of speech).
What those men need is a good a** beating in front of everyone, make them think twice about making those comments.
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
omgggggggg! Are you serious???!!??
If my son ever speaks like this I probably
kill him or have his father do it. (ok not seriously don't start attacking me for child abuse, figure of speech, figures of speech).
What those men need is a good a** beating in front of everyone, make them think twice about making those comments.
My habibi is a strapping strong tall man. They even say it in front of him. THe amount of times he almost beat someone is amazing. Even older men dressed in suits at posh establishments. then they argue back not even an apology
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
Lol....well they all sound pretty desperate if you ask me.
I think they think theyr quite the man. God alone knows how they came to that conclusion, but sometimes its so bad that it feels wrong to just ignore it
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
I think they think theyr quite the man. God alone knows how they came to that conclusion, but sometimes its so bad that it feels wrong to just ignore it
I wonder what they would do if the girl walked up to them, and gave them a quick swift kick with the knee between the legs? Do you think that would be socially acceptable? I might try that one
quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
Noor, you will have much "kicking" to do then.
that's fine, it should be some good exercise...but at least they might get the hint....
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
I wonder what they would do if the girl walked up to them, and gave them a quick swift kick with the knee between the legs? Do you think that would be socially acceptable? I might try that one
Id love to hit them but what would they do? maybe theyd hit back! I think its up to the government to control this as it should be illegal
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
Id love to hit them but what would they do? maybe theyd hit back! I think its up to the government to control this as it should be illegal
I was wondering the same thing...what *would* they do?
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
Id love to hit them but what would they do? maybe theyd hit back! I think its up to the government to control this as it should be illegal
they won't hit you back, they will be too busy searching for their manhood up in their stomachs. I grew up with an older bully brother, trust me, when you kick them there, they immediately fall to their knees with their heads down holding themselves, when this happens, immediately raise your knee stright up hitting them in the forehead, if you're lucky in the nose, they will go back and be out for the count
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
they won't hit you back, they will be too busy searching for their manhood up in their stomachs. I grew up with an older bully brother, trust me, when you kick them there, they immediately fall to their knees with their heads down holding themselves, when this happens, immediately raise your knee stright up hitting them in the forehead, if you're lucky in the nose, they will go back and be out for the count
Hee hee. When I worked in the jail, that's *exactly* how they taught us to *defend* ourselves. Kick (although preferably knee) to the crotch and then when they are down, kick them hard in the face. Really oogs me out to think about it, but it was better than the other option they gave me, gouging their eyes out with a pen. Yuck!
although I'm sure I would do whatever I had to at that point....
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
they won't hit you back, they will be too busy searching for their manhood up in their stomachs. I grew up with an older bully brother, trust me, when you kick them there, they immediately fall to their knees with their heads down holding themselves, when this happens, immediately raise your knee stright up hitting them in the forehead, if you're lucky in the nose, they will go back and be out for the count
Shuck chick Im happy Im not related to you!
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
My habibi is a strapping strong tall man. They even say it in front of him. THe amount of times he almost beat someone is amazing. Even older men dressed in suits at posh establishments. then they argue back not even an apology
Thats weird. My FIL is is 6'2" and in his late 50s. When I go about town in Shebin or in Cairo I have him by my side.
If any guy starts to open his mouth to say something rude a person next to the young bastard smack him or start screaming at him to be polite.
Most of these young Amms don't have a chance to make a remark.
Yet I think most people know what position my FIL holds and how many Hajjs he has made. You don't insult a DIL of a man like that.
But if I am out after dark with my SIL then the comments come. But I have never been called a sharmoota by a guy, just women, along with the snear "Nancy Ajram".
If any guy starts to open his mouth to say something rude a person next to the young bastard smack him or start screaming at him to be polite. ] Quote. Sonomods post ends
Mine starts
You see habibi could pass for italian etc. so maybe they think he doesnt understand what they say? I myself am 6 foot, but it doesnt seem to intimidate these guys. Just the way they look makes me feel like having a bath.I really think the only way to stop this would be to try and find out what makes them do this. Is it low self esteem?
[This message has been edited by gigli (edited 11 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
Why did you repost my comments and then insert your own words into it? Why?
noor you want to know what they say? are you ready? well it could be something as ya gameel (beautiful) ammar (pretty) mouzza (babe) ya abyad (white girl) sub7an ma abda3 (god has spent alot of time on you) they could also make fun of you, of something you are wearing, if you are wearing glasses they might raise their hands and ask you to count the fingers, if you are limping they might tell you, we hope you make it to the end of the road. it also can be very sexual, they might refer to your genitals and tell you what they want to do with it, oh babe i want to lick your **** or fondle your **** my penis is big you will like it, etc. it could also be playful like they will stop you and ask, where is micky mouse bridge???
well i hope you now have an idea of what us women face while walking in the streets in egypt. its not pretty is it??
quote:
Originally posted by sonomod:
Why did you repost my comments and then insert your own words into it? Why?
I didnt. It came out that way. Ive noticed a few others the same thing happened.
quote:
Originally posted by 7aya:
dalia why don't you want to believe that egyptian women suffer from this too? and for egyptian girls its even worse because we actually understand the vile that is coming out of their mouthnoor you want to know what they say? are you ready? well it could be something as ya gameel (beautiful) ammar (pretty) mouzza (babe) ya abyad (white girl) sub7an ma abda3 (god has spent alot of time on you) they could also make fun of you, of something you are wearing, if you are wearing glasses they might raise their hands and ask you to count the fingers, if you are limping they might tell you, we hope you make it to the end of the road. it also can be very sexual, they might refer to your genitals and tell you what they want to do with it, oh babe i want to lick your **** or fondle your **** my penis is big you will like it, etc. it could also be playful like they will stop you and ask, where is micky mouse bridge???
well i hope you now have an idea of what us women face while walking in the streets in egypt. its not pretty is it??
Thank you 7aya, I've asked my fieance but he refused to tell me what kinds of things they say, I now see why. How cruel those mean things !!! BTW, that mickey mouse comment ... lame!
quote:
Originally posted by 7aya:
dalia why don't you want to believe that egyptian women suffer from this too? and for egyptian girls its even worse because we actually understand the vile that is coming out of their mouth
And, btw, some foreigners understand very well what they are saying. I am sometimes surprised at how openly people (men as well as women) talk about you in your presence because they automatically assume you don't understand them ...
quote:
Originally posted by sonomod:
along with the snear "Nancy Ajram".
wow, are you that pretty ? 
quote:
Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 7aya:
[b]dalia why don't you want to believe that egyptian women suffer from this too? and for egyptian girls its even worse because we actually understand the vile that is coming out of their mouth
And, btw, some foreigners understand very well what they are saying. I am sometimes surprised at how openly people (men as well as women) talk about you in your presence because they automatically assume you don't understand them ...
[/B][/QUOTE]
oh i guess i misunderstood then i'm sorry you have to hear this!
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
I myself am 6 foot,
Oh that is so cool! I'm a bit envious.
quote:
Originally posted by Corvinous:
wow, are you that pretty ?
Unfortunately I am an 8 and she is considered a 9 or 10 out of 10.
Unfortunately my brash personality has a tendancy to diffuse my outer beauty.
Like my favorite school teacher has said: "when you are calm and not thinking so deeply you look sweet, but when you are at your usual capacity one can see a storm exploding underneath the surface. Its heavily distracting and thats what people notice the most. So much thought and raw emotion twisting and churning, that it distracts my your outer symmetry."
I am fierce, and sensitive. People often cannot deal with my energy level and ability to be totally consumed.
Lets put it this way you don't want to raise your daughter to be a paperdoll, you might get the opposite.
And according to my in-laws my looks are ideal. according to my father, my husband is brutally handsome with the same storm brewing inside him.
My brain just makes me more dangerous!
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Hello Dalia, am Anissa , I’ve just read your reply, when you said that foreign women suffer more from harassment, yes it may be true, but you know am telling you some of them really like it,
quote:
I don’t want to make a generality cause am a foreign too, but when you are in the foreign country, you have to make an effort, and try to get accustom to the culture, especially when you are in the Muslim country,example,the way certain women are dress up, ……
Take care
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 12 October 2005).]
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 12 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
And what I tried to said its that unfortunately I do believe that some of the women like this kind of harrassement
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Hello Dalia
I live in the country where on saturday night women are half necked ready to go out and to.... I promess to you it is true, I have some Egyptians friends who came to visit me and they just could not believe it!
They were shocked, women half necked and drunk
Trying to talk to them while their were with their wife! This is the reality too, that why I thought that some of them would not mind to be harassed.....
Am sorry if I did upset you it was not my intention
It's an interesting logic, but not true at all. They dress that way to "look desirable" but that does not mean in any way that they want to be harassed. They may want to be picked up but not in a rude or insulting way.
You logic that the way they dress may mean that they dress that way because they want to be harassed is interesting because they actually don't get harassed when they do it in a western country.
That is why western women can not relate to Egyptian men harassing them on the streets. In the sense that in western countries they can be almost naked and no one (very few) will look at them the way Egyptian men look at them while they are dressed in a far more conservative cloths.
But this is nor new and it's been happening to Egyptian women almost forever. The curde language,to my knowledge , is used only with western women.
quote:
Originally posted by sonomod:
Unfortunately I am an 8 and she is considered a 9 or 10 out of 10.Unfortunately my brash personality has a tendancy to diffuse my outer beauty.
Like my favorite school teacher has said: "when you are calm and not thinking so deeply you look sweet, but when you are at your usual capacity one can see a storm exploding underneath the surface. Its heavily distracting and thats what people notice the most. So much thought and raw emotion twisting and churning, that it distracts my your outer symmetry."
I am fierce, and sensitive. People often cannot deal with my energy level and ability to be totally consumed.
Lets put it this way you don't want to raise your daughter to be a paperdoll, you might get the opposite.
And according to my in-laws my looks are ideal. according to my father, my husband is brutally handsome with the same storm brewing inside him.
My brain just makes me more dangerous!
Beleive me I know it, I never understood or felt a thing of what people say here like I understand and feel every breath and letter of the soul facts you are stating here.
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Hello Dalia, am Anissa , I’ve just read your reply, when you said that foreign women suffer more from harassment, yes it may be true, but you know am telling you some of them really like it, I don’t want to make a generality cause am a foreign too, but when you are in the foreign country, you have to make an effort, and try to get accustom to the culture, especially when you are in the Muslim country,example,the way certain women are dress up, ……
Take care
There is some type of ladies whom I can't hold myself back from bugging, or else I will be very full of too much enery that I find too precious to consume over unworthy people or things, it sometimes become a must for me to bug those ladies, I just find them too sweet to be left alone and same rule runs for the sweet smart little kids too
PS. some people told me that could be a sign of me being such a good father and husband deep in my heart. LOL
[This message has been edited by Corvinous (edited 12 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Well then you should try to get dress up with a short skirt and high heel
yeaaaaaaaaa ... but if you dress like that at home for your husband, he would be the happiest man on earth it is one of my fantazies
quote:
Originally posted by Corvinous:
yeaaaaaaaaa ... but if you dress like that at home for your husband, he would be the happiest man on earth
LOL I thought you were a woman! HEHEHE
quote:
Originally posted by nooralhaq:
LOL I thought you were a woman! HEHEHE
OH
OK, now you know I am a man (a hell of a one indeed )so waht are you gonna do about it ????
[This message has been edited by Corvinous (edited 12 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Hello Dalia
I live in the country where on saturday night women are half necked ready to go out and to.... I promess to you it is true, I have some Egyptians friends who came to visit me and they just could not believe it!
They were shocked, women half necked and drunk
Trying to talk to them while their were with their wife! This is the reality too, that why I thought that some of them would not mind to be harassed.....
Am sorry if I did upset you it was not my intention
I know what your saying. Here in London, guys might smile and whistle and everyone laughs and thats that. But the greasy slimey looks compared with the shouts of what they want to do with you is different in Cairo.They are not complimenting you like some men elsewhere will do and youll smile and laugh, they are insulting you by assuming your a slut and that they dare say those horrible sexual things to you.
quote:
Originally posted by gigli:
I know what your saying. Here in London, guys might smile and whistle and everyone laughs and thats that. But the greasy slimey looks compared with the shouts of what they want to do with you is different in Cairo.They are not complimenting you like some men elsewhere will do and youll smile and laugh, they are insulting you by assuming your a slut and that they dare say those horrible sexual things to you.
now, that makes sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Automatic For The People:
It's an interesting logic, but not true at all. They dress that way to "look desirable" but that does not mean in any way that they want to be harassed. They may want to be picked up but not in a rude or insulting way.
You logic that the way they dress may mean that they dress that way because they want to be harassed is interesting because they actually don't get harassed when they do it in a western country.
That is why western women can not relate to Egyptian men harassing them on the streets. In the sense that in western countries they can be almost naked and no one (very few) will look at them the way Egyptian men look at them while they are dressed in a far more conservative cloths.But this is nor new and it's been happening to Egyptian women almost forever. The curde language,to my knowledge , is used only with western women.
But in all your years residing in the west have you ever gotten used to the risque wardrobe of 'some' western women?
Are you desensitized to it by now? Or do you pop a tent whenever a 7 inch skirt walks by?
Oh and by the way the worst harrassment I ever heard in Egypt was said to my SIL an actual Egyptian women. The old fart was on a tram just getting moving from a platform we were waiting on (opposite side of platform). The old toothless f*cker said something to the effect "Mansuara whore married a Suadi now she shares her Suadi donkey with a blonde, (the rest is expletives, not going to mention). What that greasy old, fat, toothless, impotent (assuming) had in mind is due to the complete take over of Alexandria after exams by the Saudis and the Gulf Arabs he had rationalized that we were co-wives of the same man. that my SIL from Shebin was from mansuara and we both shared the same husband. No one from Shebin has married a Saudi or a Gulf Arab. But he assumed this.
No man has ever spoken to me in this tongue while in Egypt. The worst was actually in Shebin were a teenage boy walked up to me (20 feet away) and said he loved me and wanted to marry me. In English. About 10 older people swarmed him and started cussing and slapping him. Hours later on our way back to the house we walked by the neighborhood's military check post and was questioned by the soilders if I wanted to press charges against that young teenage boy for making that comment about 'loving me and wanting to marry me'. I said no. But his father, grandfather, uncles came over the next morning to my in-laws villa to apologize. And said that this was the first time he had seen a foreign woman and lost control.
Lets just put it this way. People know me and know my in-laws reputation. Only some middle-aged woman is going to have a shitfit and express dissatisfaction with my presence.
[This message has been edited by sonomod (edited 12 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by sonomod:
But in all your years residing in the west have you ever gotten used to the risque wardrobe of 'some' western women?
NO.
Are you desensitized to it by now? Or do you pop a tent whenever a 7 inch skirt walks by?
12 inches
quote:
Originally posted by Automatic For The People:
It's an interesting logic, but not true at all. They dress that way to "look desirable" but that does not mean in any way that they want to be harassed. They may want to be picked up but not in a rude or insulting way.
You logic that the way they dress may mean that they dress that way because they want to be harassed is interesting because they actually don't get harassed when they do it in a western country.
That is why western women can not relate to Egyptian men harassing them on the streets. In the sense that in western countries they can be almost naked and no one (very few) will look at them the way Egyptian men look at them while they are dressed in a far more conservative cloths.
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
most of the time the one who are raped are the one who are dress up to look “desirable “ as they hang around at night half necked and sometimes drunk
Usually the majority of rapes does NOT happen on the street but in a private environment, often the victim also knows the one who assaults her.
And contrary to common prejudice whether a woman gets raped or not has very little to do with how she dresses since rape is about power, not sexual desire.
Myth: Rape only occurs at the hands of strangers in dark alleys, at night, behind bushes, in lonely places.
Fact: Research shows that in the majority of cases the rapist is known to the woman. He may be a Friend, a Workmate, Relative or Husband. About 50% of rapes occur in the home of the woman or attacker.
Myth: Rape is committed by a sex starved maniac overwhelmed by uncontrollable sexual urges.
Fact: Rape is not about sex, it is about POWER and VIOLENCE. The vast majority of rapes are carefully planned.
Myth: Women "ask for it" by hitching lifts, wearing short skirts and make-up, leading men on.
Fact: No women ever deserves to be raped, abused or assaulted, no matter what the circumstances, most rapes are planned. What a women is wearing makes no difference.
http://www.cambridgerapecrisis.org.uk/rcf-archive/myths_facts.htm
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 13 October 2005).]
Gang rapist's attacks unavoidable, says lawyer
In that case aren't all Pakistani Muslims in western countries “cultural time bombs”?
A 19-year-old north Wales woman tells the programme she believes she was the victim of drug rape after a Christmas party.
She tells the programme she believes that a male colleague had spiked her drink, causing her to feel drunker than she normally would have after the amount of alcohol she had consumed that evening.
In November last year, police in Swansea tested clubbers for drugs in their system amid concerns over drink-spiking.
One person out of the 130 tested was found to have traces of the drug GHB.
This girl has been raped due to the amount of alcohol she had consumed that evening.
if you want to llok at the link :http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3453415.stm, but you are right as well when you said that some of them are planned, but not all of them, and once again, when you are dress up half neked and drunk you have more chance to be raped!!! this is what I think...
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
She tells the programme she believes that a male colleague had spiked her drink, causing her to feel drunker than she normally would have after the amount of alcohol she had consumed that evening.
So it was planned
So if she did not have drunked, she would not have been raped
[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Just to let you know that in London crime and especially rap are very high, most of the time the one who are raped are the one who are dress up to look “desirable “ as they hang around at night half necked and sometimes drunk, and we do get harassed in UK too, it may be not the same way as in Cairo, but am pretty sure that the intention is the same, and those one who get dress up to be “desirable” are easy target to all rapist, much more than the one who don’t hang around at night half necked. And then, it is common to read on Monday morning, on the news that 2 girls were raped!!!!! Corvinous does it make sense now/ or do you wan me to go in more details?
Re-read what Automatic for the People and Dalia tried to tell you. No woman "wants" to be raped, do your realize how ridiculous you sound. I would hate for you to be on a rape trial jury with an attitude like that!
It sounds as though you are saying because of how they are dressed, if someone forces themselves on them, they asked for it!
No woman wants to be raped, insulted or harrassed regardless of how they are dressed. Rapist are known to break into one's home and attack them in their own private space, so don't compare being half naked to being a victim of rape. I know of fully veiled muslim women that were raped, and it happens constantly in areas like Afghanistan. Muslim men have to be accountable for their actions as well, this does not all fall on the women' dress.
I think what you are trying to say is that some women love the attention they receive from men, and it's true. Some like to exhibit sex appeal in all societies. But the line is drawn when that attention turns negative, degrading, and down right forceful. There is a big difference in someone paying you a kind compliment, and an insulting remark. If she likes the attention she will respond accordingly maybe with a smile or flirt back, but if she is ignoring you and you continue to bother her then it's called harrassment.
And the fact that some Egyptian men tend to do it more when they are in large groups makes it more degrading, as the friends usually get a good laugh out of it as well.
I'm a middle-aged plain looking woman, not a drop dead gorgeous Nancy Aghram look-a-like like our dear old Sonomod "internet persona", yet I even get harassed in Egypt. It's annoying more than anything. Some of the harrassment is not even sexual, just the typical pushy hustlers that spotted a tourist, although we have several business ties in Egypt, I tend to stray off on my own to the tourist areas. Usually when you are with your husband, the sexual harrassment may cease, but the hustling type never ends.
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
t
A 19-year-old north Wales woman tells the programme she believes she was the victim of drug rape after a Christmas party.She tells the programme she believes that a male colleague had spiked her drink, causing her to feel drunker than she normally would have after the amount of alcohol she had consumed that evening.
In November last year, police in Swansea tested clubbers for drugs in their system amid concerns over drink-spiking.
One person out of the 130 tested was found to have traces of the drug GHB.
This girl has been raped due to the amount of alcohol she had consumed that evening.
if you want to llok at the link :http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3453415.stm, but you are right as well when you said that some of them are planned, but not all of them, and once again, when you are dress up half neked and drunk you have more chance to be raped!!! this is what I think...
Do you understand the meaning of the word "statistics", Agnes?
I am not saying cases like the one you posted here don't happen, I pointed out to you that the majority of rapes is planned and in no way related to dress or attitude.
Statistics of this are available all over the net; instead of mindlessly repeating that you personally believe most rapes happen to women who go out in seductive clothes and drink maybe you should inform yourself better. There's a big difference between facts and a personal opinion.
I feel you are taking the moral highground here; who are you to judge others because of the way they dress? Examine your own values and your own heart first, you sound very spiteful and prejudiced and you're making it sound as if you think if a woman dresses seductively it serves her right should she get raped ... strange!
[This message has been edited by Dalia (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Just to let you know that in London crime and especially rap are very high, most of the time the one who are raped are the one who are dress up to look “desirable “ as they hang around at night half necked and sometimes drunk, and we do get harassed in UK too, it may be not the same way as in Cairo, but am pretty sure that the intention is the same, and those one who get dress up to be “desirable” are easy target to all rapist, much more than the one who don’t hang around at night half necked. And then, it is common to read on Monday morning, on the news that 2 girls were raped!!!!! Corvinous does it make sense now/ or do you wan me to go in more details?
Anisa, I think you have never lived in Cairo. First off, the attention you get on the streets of London is so minimal compared to any other european city. Second of all, the kind of attention you get in Cairo CANNOT be compared to it.
You will like a piece of meat. You will feel insulted. You will find nothing flattering about a 60 year old man leering at you, you will find nothing flirty about the majority of men that pass you on the street making you feel as if you were wearing a bikini instead of clothes 2-3 sizes bigger that are hanging off you.
Also. You don't see drunk people on the streets of Cairo. You don't see half naked girls throwing up on the side walk. You certainly CAN dress the same way in Cairo as you would to go clubbing in London but you cover up btw your house and your car and again btw your car and the club.
I'm sure rape does exist in Cairo, but not the kind that exists in London with half-dressed, completely drunk women wobbling home after midnight.
You simply are comparing completely different things.
quote:
Originally posted by kafir4 ever:
No she was raped because a male colleague spiked her drink![This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 13 October 2005).]
Wow, Kafir, we agree.
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Anisa, I think you have never lived in Cairo. First off, the attention you get on the streets of London is so minimal compared to any other european city. Second of all, the kind of attention you get in Cairo CANNOT be compared to it.You will like a piece of meat. You will feel insulted. You will find nothing flattering about a 60 year old man leering at you, you will find nothing flirty about the majority of men that pass you on the street making you feel as if you were wearing a bikini instead of clothes 2-3 sizes bigger that are hanging off you.
Also. You don't see drunk people on the streets of Cairo. You don't see half naked girls throwing up on the side walk. You certainly CAN dress the same way in Cairo as you would to go clubbing in London but you cover up btw your house and your car and again btw your car and the club.
I'm sure rape does exist in Cairo, but not the kind that exists in London with half-dressed, completely drunk women wobbling home after midnight.
You simply are comparing completely different things.
But this kind of attention is normal when you look different from the majority it's not necessary a sexual abuse as both men and women usually stare.
I do find alot of truth in what Agnes said by refering to the kind of dress and behaviour of woman being a factor with other factors which determine the taregt which the raper may feel more comfortable choosing. dressing in a provocative way while woman doesn't intened to be raped for it but is usually interpretated by rapers to be an invitation.
“It sounds as though you are saying because of how they are dressed, if someone orces themselves on them, they asked for it!”
No they don’t ask for it, of course but they are looking for troubles, maybe they do not realize! inmy job I have to work with girls who turn up to the office dress up with some very very very short skirt, along with some very open top, plus a lot of make up. It is ok I do not have nothing against it, but then, when I hear these girls complain at all the time, that they have been harassed in the street, or in the tube, by some pervert, who have seen their little pants under their very short skirt, while they are walking in the escalator, am sorry but witch kind of attention are they looking for? Mummm
last week, one of them came back to the office in tears, clamming that every day after work a pervert is waiting for her to get out of the office and then, follow her, from her work place to the tube station witch is about 10 mins by walk, she was very scared and shaking, we called the police, and when they turn up to the office and saw how the girl was dress up, the first think they did its to advising her to covert herself, to avoid this kind of problems, but the girl was very upset about the advises given by the policemen, claiming that the way she was dress up was nothing to do with the fact that she was harassed!! Well maybe, but girls in the office who are dress up normally don’t have this kind of problem!!!
I have travel many time to Egypt, and never seen some girls dress up with some very very short mimi skirt, or very open top, but in the western countries yes, that why you may not understand what I was trying to say.
That what I wanted to explain, and if after what I wrote you still think it sound ridiculous……….
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles101:
dressing in a provocative way while woman doesn't intened to be raped for it but is usually interpretated by rapers to be an invitation.
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Of course I know that no any women would like to be raped!!!! Am a woman too,“It sounds as though you are saying because of how they are dressed, if someone orces themselves on them, they asked for it!”
No they don’t ask for it, of course but they are looking for troubles, maybe they do not realize!
Both are scary, Anissa, I agree with that, rape and harassment. I wish women never had to suffer either.
When it comes to sexual harassment, I think women have a tendency to be hard on other women who dress provocatively. Since we *are* scared of harassment, we look for ways to avoid it.
And one way to try and minimize harassment is to dress within acceptable norms for our culture. It doesn't mean women are to blame for harassment -- it just means attire is one of the few things we can control in these situations.
But seeking control over our own circumstances diverts our attention from the real causes and solutions for harassment, which must be directed at the men who are doing it. They have to be taught it's not OK. How to do that in Egypt? I don't know...there are laws here (US) and probably more importantly, there is social pressure for *good classy men* to not behave that way. I don't know enough about Egyptian culture to say how it could be minimized there.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troubles101:
[b] dressing in a provocative way while woman doesn't intened to be raped for it but is usually interpretated by rapers to be an invitation.
Perhaps we read different statics as the one I rememebr reading claimed that girls between 16-19 were more likly to be rapeed than other ages.
What I'm trying to say is, when you present a picture of different women to normal people and all those women in pictures were raped, people tend to associate responsibility to the ones with provocative clothes and associate absolute victimness to the one wearing decent clothes and this was done in a survey where both men and women agreed on this. this makes me conclude that a raper is more likly to choose a one which will not appear as an absloute victim but rather will take responsibility or even share the guilt with him, an option where he wont be viewed as an absloute criminal.
I forgot to add that in one of those statics, almost half the number of girls who were raped were under influnce of drugs or alcohol which again is related to woman's behaviour.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 13 October 2005).]
Also. You don't see drunk people on the streets of Cairo. You don't see half naked girls throwing up on the side walk. You certainly CAN dress the same way in Cairo as you would to go clubbing in London but you cover up btw your house and your car and again btw your car and the club.
I'm sure rape does exist in Cairo, but not the kind that exists in London with half-dressed, completely drunk women wobbling home after midnight.
You simply are comparing completely different things.
What do you think when a woman in London who get harrassed is told? " Hello you look so beautiful today!!!!!!"
Do you think being harrased in the street of London is different? that you don't feel you are like a peice of meat too?? well I can tell you there are not a lot of differences, and yes when you are dress up with some very short mini skirt some men can think its a kind of invitation,however, when you are dress up with normal clothes and you get harrassed, then ya I agreed its different...
You will like a piece of meat. You will feel insulted. You will find nothing flattering about a 60 year old man leering at you, you will find nothing flirty about the majority of men that pass you on the street making you feel as if you were wearing a bikini instead of clothes 2-3 sizes bigger that are hanging off you.
Also. You don't see drunk people on the streets of Cairo. You don't see half naked girls throwing up on the side walk. You certainly CAN dress the same way in Cairo as you would to go clubbing in London but you cover up btw your house and your car and again btw your car and the club.
I'm sure rape does exist in Cairo, but not the kind that exists in London with half-dressed, completely drunk women wobbling home after midnight.
You simply are comparing completely different things.
What do you think when a woman in London who get harrassed is told? " Hello you look so beautiful today!!!!!!"
Do you think being harrased in the street of London is different? that you don't feel you are like a peice of meat too?? well I can tell you there are not a lot of differences, and yes when you are dress up with some very short mini skirt some men can think its a kind of invitation,however, when you are dress up with normal clothes and you get harrassed, then ya I agreed its different... and please note that in my preivous posting I have mention serval time that I was talking about situation that happen in the western counties
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles101:
this makes me conclude that a raper is more likly to choose a one which will not appear as an absloute victim but rather will take responsibility or even share the guilt with him, an option where he wont be viewed as an absloute criminal.
FWIW, I think both you and Dalia are right. Rape is no doubt a crime of violence, and rapists definitely go after women they perceive as being frail or weak. Sex is a component of rape, but generally not the primary motivation. Force and humiliation and gross disrespect are. Sex is merely the *weapon* of choice for these men to inflict as much damage on their victim as they can.
However, there are situations like date rape, where a *normal* guy is in a situation where he wants sex from a *normal* girl and thinks he's going to get it. He might start talking to a provacatively-dressed woman in a club thinking *she must want it tonight* and think his chances of scoring are better with her. A lot of times he's right, she does want to go home with someone that night.
But the time where he's wrong, where she does *not* want to have sex, and he has sex with her even though she says no, then it becomes a crime of violence where he shows obvious disregard for her wishes and steals from her control over her own body. Sex in this situation was both the motivator and the weapon used in the crime.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalia:
What you're saying shows that you haven't understood the main thing about rape – that it's about violence, not about sexual pleasure. There are studies that show that women who are regarded as more attractive are less likely to be raped then women who are less attractive ; one of the reasons for this is that attractive women mostly appear more self-confident.
A woman who is less attractive has a greater risk to get raped, sexually assaulted? Who committed these studies? Men? What makes a woman attractive? What kind of criterias did they use?
I think in the dark of the night the rapist doesn't care how attractive she is unless he follows a certain pattern (like he only goes for women with blonde hair etc.) in this case her hair color makes her attractive to be a possible victim.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
FWIW, I think both you and Dalia are right. Rape is no doubt a crime of violence, and rapists definitely go after women they perceive as being frail or weak. Sex is a component of rape, but generally not the primary motivation. Force and humiliation and gross disrespect are. Sex is merely the *weapon* of choice for these men to inflict as much damage on their victim as they can.However, there are situations like date rape, where a *normal* guy is in a situation where he wants sex from a *normal* girl and thinks he's going to get it. He might start talking to a provacatively-dressed woman in a club thinking *she must want it tonight* and think his chances of scoring are better with her. A lot of times he's right, she does want to go home with someone that night.
But the time where he's wrong, where she does *not* want to have sex, and he has sex with her even though she says no, then it becomes a crime of violence where he shows obvious disregard for her wishes and steals from her control over her own body. Sex in this situation was both the motivator and the weapon used in the crime.
I agree with the point about weakness, I didn't try to exclude any factor but I was only arguing against excluding the factor of the victim dress. And I think for anyone to claim that weakness of women is a big factor is admitting that the victim does play a rule in this choice.
Weakness and submisivness can be a very big factor specially when knowing that almost half those being raped were on drugs or alcohols, ie they were weak. add to this a provocative behaviour and dress and this is a loud message to a raper. but still even weakness and behaviour are not the only factors, I believe there are many of them and they don't alwayes exist with every rape case .
quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
A woman who is less attractive has a greater risk to get raped, sexually assaulted? Who committed these studies? Men? What makes a woman attractive? What kind of criterias did they use?I think in the dark of the night the rapist doesn't care how attractive she is unless he follows a certain pattern (like he only goes for women with blonde hair etc.) in this case her hair color makes her attractive to be a possible victim.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 13 October 2005).]
Attractiveness is not only an issue of dress. One can wear a very provocative dress and is less attractive than one with long sleeves but the less attractive is sending out messages which the more attractive didn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
Of course I know that no any women would like to be raped!!!! Am a woman too,“It sounds as though you are saying because of how they are dressed, if someone orces themselves on them, they asked for it!”
No they don’t ask for it, of course but they are looking for troubles, maybe they do not realize! inmy job I have to work with girls who turn up to the office dress up with some very very very short skirt, along with some very open top, plus a lot of make up. It is ok I do not have nothing against it, but then, when I hear these girls complain at all the time, that they have been harassed in the street, or in the tube, by some pervert, who have seen their little pants under their very short skirt, while they are walking in the escalator, am sorry but witch kind of attention are they looking for? Mummm
last week, one of them came back to the office in tears, clamming that every day after work a pervert is waiting for her to get out of the office and then, follow her, from her work place to the tube station witch is about 10 mins by walk, she was very scared and shaking, we called the police, and when they turn up to the office and saw how the girl was dress up, the first think they did its to advising her to covert herself, to avoid this kind of problems, but the girl was very upset about the advises given by the policemen, claiming that the way she was dress up was nothing to do with the fact that she was harassed!! Well maybe, but girls in the office who are dress up normally don’t have this kind of problem!!!
I have travel many time to Egypt, and never seen some girls dress up with some very very short mimi skirt, or very open top, but in the western countries yes, that why you may not understand what I was trying to say.
That what I wanted to explain, and if after what I wrote you still think it sound ridiculous……….
Again Anissa, this depends on what type of society you live in. Is it a predominantly conservatively dressed one, or predominantly liberally dressed one. Because rather you know it or not, this does determine the behavior of how men react to women.
For example in a society like the USA where more than half the women wear midriff tops and short skirts, using your logic(half naked), they would all be potential rape victims. There would be millions of men waiting outside of millions of offices for them to leave work! Which is absurd and ridiculous.
Have you heard the term desensitized????? It's when someone sees something so often that it no longer has a shock value. In other words if you pass someone on the streets of the USA wearing a mini skirt, no one is gonna look twice, because almost every other woman is wearing one, so actually she would just "blend in" rather than "stand out", unless there are other attributes that make her stand out.
So your argument that they are looking for trouble would mean that half the women in our country are looking for trouble, which is illogical.
On the other hand, in countries like Egypt where the "majority" of women are covered in loose clothing, anyone wearing short or provocative clothing would "stand out", because the people, both men and women would be "shocked" as they are not desensitized to this dress mode in "public". They may see it on television, bars, and few isolated tourist areas, but in the conservative parts of town, no.
Psychologically when men see the same thing day in and day out, they become desensitized, when they see something out of the norm, exotic, that stands out, their senses are aroused. This is probably why white westerners especially with light colored eyes or hair, would stand out in a country like Egypt, regardless of how they are dressed, and tend to get harrassed more because of how exotic they appear.
Also it is my personal opinion, that this is just how Egyptian men "pick up" women. I mean it's not like just one or 2 guys doing it, it's way too many of them, which makes me conclude that this is "normal" for them. They don't see it as harrasment, unless they are as simple minded as you, and think the women "want" to be harrassed.
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles101:
I agree with the point about weakness, I didn't try to exclude any factor but I was only arguing against excluding the factor of the victim dress. And I think for anyone to claim that weakness of women is a big factor is admitting that the victim does play a rule in this choice.
Weakness and submisivness can be a very big factor specially when knowing that almost half those being raped were on drugs or alcohols, ie they were weak. add to this a provocative behaviour and dress and this is a loud message to a raper. but still even weakness and behaviour are not the only factors, I believe there are many of them and they don't alwayes exist with every rape case .
Trouble I don't think you understand the profile of a rapist in countries like the USA. According to an FBI study, most serial rapists raped their victims in their own home, not some "half naked" woman walking down a dark alley. If this type of rape occurs, its more like opportunist rape similar to the situations in date rape cases.
Otherwise "serial" rapist are "not" sexually attracted to their victims. They have psychological disorders of anger and rage, and sex is their weapon of control and force, not because they thought she looked cute in a mini skirt.
I agree that provocative dressing can encourage sexual harrassment, but not rape. It takes a very sick mind to rape someone. Otherwise the other horny perverts can simply go pick up a prostitute off the corner who would have sex with them "willingly".
Also many guys pick up girls from bars who go home and have sex with them "willingly". But when you force yourself on someone it is about power, not sexual attraction!
According to the FBI profiles, most serial rapist admitted to getting no "sexual" satisfaction from rape victims. Most of their satisfaction came from victimizing the young woman or boy, because boys get raped too. His pleasure comes from his victims torment, helplessness, weakness,and suffering! Not because he is turned on by how nice her legs look in a mini skirt, or how nice her boobs are in the low cut blouse that she is turning him on. The more weak she is, the more pleasure he gets. Who knows, some women have sexual perversion as well, some may enjoy "rough" sex, then what pleasure would the rapist get then? So he "does" enjoy weak women, otherwise if she is literally enjoying the rough sex, then it really negates the fact that it's rape, as rape occurs by "force".
There are all sorts of crazy sexual perversions in this country, but we are talking about rapist, and there is no evidence in the FBI profiles that provocative dressing plays a part in it.
[This message has been edited by hassancheb (edited 13 October 2005).]
For example in a society like the USA where more than half the women wear midriff tops and short skirts, using your logic(half naked), they would all be potential rape victims. There would be millions of men waiting outside of millions of offices for them to leave work! This is absurd and ridiculous.
Yes as you said is absurd and ridiculous, as it “an be possible that millions of men waiting outside of millions of offices for them to leave work! “ that your own words , however the story I have said about this girl who were harassed by someone cause the way she was dress up is logic to me and true!!!! Harassment can lead to rap, and for me this girl whom I mentioned could have been in serious troubles!!!!!!
Weakness and behaviour are not the only factors, of rap cases am aware of it but
I believe that being cover when walking on the street in part of a good behaviour, this my opinion from about western countries, not about Egypt, as rap crime does happen everywhere in the world unfortunately, and not only in Egypt
quote:
Originally posted by hassancheb:
Trouble I don't think you understand the profile of a rapist in countries like the USA. According to an FBI study, most serial rapists raped their victims in their own home, not some "half naked" woman walking down a dark alley. If this type of rape occurs, its more like opportunist rape similar to the situations in date rape cases.Otherwise "serial" rapist are "not" sexually attracted to their victims. They have psychological disorders of anger and rage, and sex is their weapon of control and force, not because they thought she looked cute in a mini skirt.
I agree that provocative dressing can encourage sexual harrassment, but not rape. It takes a very sick mind to rape someone. Otherwise the other horny perverts can simply go pick up a prostitute off the corner who would have sex with them "willingly".
Also many guys pick up girls from bars who go home and have sex with them "willingly". But when you force yourself on someone it is about power, not sexual attraction!
According to the FBI profiles, most serial rapist admitted to getting no "sexual" satisfaction from rape victims. Most of their satisfaction came from victimizing the young woman or boy, because boys get raped too. His pleasure comes from his victims torment, helplessness, weakness,and suffering! Not because he is turned on by how nice her legs look in a mini skirt, or how nice her boobs are in the low cut blouse that she is turning him on. The more weak she is, the more pleasure he gets. Who knows, some women have sexual perversion as well, some may enjoy "rough" sex, then what pleasure would the rapist get then? So he "does" enjoy weak women, otherwise if she is literally enjoying the rough sex, then it really negates the fact that it's rape, as rape occurs by "force".
There are all sorts of crazy sexual perversions in this country, but we are talking about rapist, and there is no evidence in the FBI profiles that provocative dressing plays a part in it.
[This message has been edited by hassancheb (edited 13 October 2005).]
Hassancheb, Well at least we agree that dress can encourage something, but as for rape, you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people? I don't think we can give a complete guide for why someone may get raped,like no matter how cautious a person is, he or she can still be robbed but we are trying to understand some points that can play a rule sometimes in directing the rapist in choosing his victim. Speaking of rape cases where the raper chooses a weak victim, makes me wonder what influence the stander by which raper decide whether such a victim is in a weaker position than other and will give less resistance than others? He can pick young teens or kids as those may be afraid to report, but how about those wearing very provocative dresses? How many believe them to be absolute victims of rape when knowing the kind of dress and provocative behaviour they go by? according to surveys, most people will not find them irresponsible which is something makes their position weak plus the way they dress gives the raper a message that those women are more accepting of it than those who prefer to dress more decent...This is in case we are talking about a raper who is looking for a weak victim...But still not all rape cases are like that, many are about sex where the guy assume from the girl behaviour that she doesn't mind having sex with him and he push for it while the girl is drunk or he might assume that for her accepting to kiss him means she wants sex and he proceeded with it. Not all who committed rape are serial ones, I read a research before where many men admitted committing a rape or sexual assault but they didn't define it that way as they simply thought this is what the girl wanted just because she did something like kissing him. In other words, while no woman want to be raped yet sometimes what she does gives out a message that she is accepting of it specially when they are drunk with low resistance.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Anissa agnes:
What do you think when a woman in London who get harrassed is told? " Hello you look so beautiful today!!!!!!"
Do you think being harrased in the street of London is different? that you don't feel you are like a peice of meat too?? well I can tell you there are not a lot of differences, and yes when you are dress up with some very short mini skirt some men can think its a kind of invitation,however, when you are dress up with normal clothes and you get harrassed, then ya I agreed its different...[/B]
Having lived in both cities - hell yes. There is a huge difference. The worst looks in London cannot compare with the least-offensive ones in Cairo.
quote:
Originally posted by ExptinCAI:
Having lived in both cities - hell yes. There is a huge difference. The worst looks in London cannot compare with the least-offensive ones in Cairo.
BUT JACK THE RIPPER WAS ENGLISH. (UKEAN )
quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
I think in the dark of the night the rapist doesn't care how attractive she is unless he follows a certain pattern (like he only goes for women with blonde hair etc.) in this case her hair color makes her attractive to be a possible victim.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 13 October 2005).]
Here you are focusing on stranger rapes, which are not a large percentage of rapes. Most rapes happen when the perpetrator knows the victim and knows the victim quite well.
You are refering to the 6-8% of violent rapes that Court TV sensationalizes.
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles101:
Hassancheb, Well at least we agree that dress can encourage something, but as for rape, you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people? I don't think we can give a complete guide for why someone may get raped,like no matter how cautious a person is, he or she can still be robbed but we are trying to understand some points that can play a rule sometimes in directing the rapist in choosing his victim. Speaking of rape cases where the raper chooses a weak victim, makes me wonder what influence the stander by which raper decide whether such a victim is in a weaker position than other and will give less resistance than others? He can pick young teens or kids as those may be afraid to report, but how about those wearing very provocative dresses? How many believe them to be absolute victims of rape when knowing the kind of dress and provocative behaviour they go by? according to surveys, most people will not find them irresponsible which is something makes their position weak plus the way they dress gives the raper a message that those women are more accepting of it than those who prefer to dress more decent...This is in case we are talking about a raper who is looking for a weak victim...But still not all rape cases are like that, many are about sex where the guy assume from the girl behaviour that she doesn't mind having sex with him and he push for it while the girl is drunk or he might assume that for her accepting to kiss him means she wants sex and he proceeded with it. Not all who committed rape are serial ones, I read a research before where many men admitted committing a rape or sexual assault but they didn't define it that way as they simply thought this is what the girl wanted just because she did something like kissing him. In other words, while no woman want to be raped yet sometimes what she does gives out a message that she is accepting of it specially when they are drunk with low resistance.[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 13 October 2005).]
Again you are completely obessed with the idea of stranger rapes which are less than 10% of all rapes.
You know Troubles you were raised in a society where rape is not reported nor is it understood. Overwhelmingly people of your society are obessed with stranger rapes and blaming women for the rapes.
Discussing this topic with you is a complete waste because you will not evaluate your prejudices and use logic or reason. You stick with what your culture has trained you think.
Having your head in the sand for this long must be comforting.
And mind you I know for a fact that the ministry of Justice within Egypt does not keep nor study their crime statistics, let alone have any uniform procedures for investigating a crime or prosecuting the perpetrator.
Actually I found one case quickly on the net but I do have my doubts about it.
*******
Man 'gang-raped' by 3 women
24/08/2005 22:52 - (SA)
Borrie la Grange
Johannesburg - A 30-year-old man was off to play pool when three women asked him to direct them to a hotel and he claims they raped him in turn after they had had drinks.
The man, from Roodepoort on the West Rand, was walking from his flat to an entertainment centre shortly after 17:00 on Sunday night when three women in a maroon BMW stopped him.
Captain Paula Nothnagel of the police said the women, aged between 20 and 30, asked him how to get to the Savoy Hotel.
"He explained, but they apparently insisted he should go with them to show them the way.
"He got into the car with them," she said.
On arriving at the hotel the women invited him for a drink.
After drinks and a chat, they asked him to show them where the Station Hotel was.
"On the way to the hotel, the driver suddenly changed direction and drove to an open piece of veld near the Durban Roodepoort Deep mine.
Kept gun on him all the time
"One of the women pulled out a gun and held up the man while the other two undressed.
"Then all three of them raped him in turn, with one of them keeping the gun pointed at him," said Nothnagel.
When they had finished, they forced the man back into the car and dropped him off in Main Ridge Road shortly before 02:00. He walked home and contacted the police on Monday.
Nothnagel said detectives from the police unit for family violence, child protection and sexual offences were still trying to trace the women.
[This message has been edited by Tigerlily (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Tigerlily:
And surely to commit rape is a shameful man thing. Or did you ever hear that a woman raped a guy?Actually I found one case quickly on the net but I do have my doubts about it.
*******
Yeah, that's a tough one to really believe...
In some places it's illegal to have sex with someone who is drunk or high, since they aren't really in the right state of mind to *consent.* But I don't know about this guy getting raped....
quote:
Originally posted by Troubles101:Hassancheb, Well at least we agree that dress can encourage something, but as for rape, you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people? I don't think we can give a complete guide for why someone may get raped,like no matter how cautious a person is, he or she can still be robbed but we are trying to understand some points that can play a rule sometimes in directing the rapist in choosing his victim. Speaking of rape cases where the raper chooses a weak victim, makes me wonder what influence the stander by which raper decide whether such a victim is in a weaker position than other and will give less resistance than others? He can pick young teens or kids as those may be afraid to report, but how about those wearing very provocative dresses? How many believe them to be absolute victims of rape when knowing the kind of dress and provocative behaviour they go by? according to surveys, most people will not find them irresponsible which is something makes their position weak plus the way they dress gives the raper a message that those women are more accepting of it than those who prefer to dress more decent...This is in case we are talking about a raper who is looking for a weak victim...But still not all rape cases are like that, many are about sex where the guy assume from the girl behaviour that she doesn't mind having sex with him and he push for it while the girl is drunk or he might assume that for her accepting to kiss him means she wants sex and he proceeded with it. Not all who committed rape are serial ones, I read a research before where many men admitted committing a rape or sexual assault but they didn't define it that way as they simply thought this is what the girl wanted just because she did something like kissing him. In other words, while no woman want to be raped yet sometimes what she does gives out a message that she is accepting of it specially when they are drunk with low resistance.
quote:
Originally posted by sonomod:
Again you are completely obessed with the idea of stranger rapes which are less than 10% of all rapes.You know Troubles you were raised in a society where rape is not reported nor is it understood. Overwhelmingly people of your society are obessed with stranger rapes and blaming women for the rapes.
Discussing this topic with you is a complete waste because you will not evaluate your prejudices and use logic or reason. You stick with what your culture has trained you think.
Having your head in the sand for this long must be comforting.
And mind you I know for a fact that the ministry of Justice within Egypt does not keep nor study their crime statistics, let alone have any uniform procedures for investigating a crime or prosecuting the perpetrator.
Sono plz read what you're commenting on!
I said the following :
quote:
you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people?
So I do acknoledge the fact that many of those rape cases happened by a friend, or a relative or someone the girl knew before. Read my post again!
As for reporting rape in Egypt, it happens but I agree many cases may not be reported but it's the same with your society where some statics said that only 5% of rape or attempted rape crimes are reported most likely because girls are afraid to go through the humilating process of being questioned and put under pressure...right?
In many cases rapists don't choose their victims randomly, but rather ones they knew something about which makes them feel they are more likely to be accepting than others which is why almost half cases are by people the victims knew. What may make the rapist think the girl will be more accepting of it is her being under the influence of alcohol (again half cases reported were under influence of alcohol in the US) or provocative behaviour of the victim and thins include any kind of messages. Rapists are less likely to rape a woman who sounds very resistance in her behaviour and les accepting and a woman in decent dress I believe is is sending a loud high resistance message than one with bare breast...but yet again this is not the only factors playing key in rape, it may happen for no reason at all as well.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 13 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
Yeah, that's a tough one to really believe...In some places it's illegal to have sex with someone who is drunk or high, since they aren't really in the right state of mind to *consent.* But I don't know about this guy getting raped....
I think it was the FBI claims that said about 1 of each 10 men in the US was sexually assaulted or raped but most don't report because of the shame fear or because none takes it seriously.
Hello my name is Helena and I live in London. I don’t agree with that, and I see a lot of true on what Anissa have written.
Harassment in London does exist, its is just different than in Cairo. The main problem in UK is alcohol. Guys can be very polite and nice to you, but they drink they really cannot control themselves AT ALL, they become very violent, aggressive, and dangerous, and I personally think that its even more dangerous than in cairo, as in UK men are so polite and Gentlemen that you really cannot see the difference between the good and the bad. So you don’t feel like a piece of meat cause they are so nice, but you really have to learn how to read between the lines. And of course I do think in this case, if the girl is dress up, like going to night club, it does not help at all.
I have a friend who has been raped in the street of London by a 3 young guys who were drunk, she just wanted to spend a night in the night club, and were juts looking for a taxi to go home.
I heard once on a TV show about sexual harassment that a victim had more chance to avoid the worse by taking the rapist by his feelings. It was a female psychiatrist that said it.
She said that if the victim acted like a tough woman, very distant, she had more chance to get raped.
If on the contrary the woman acted in a more tranquil way, showing no fear, and talking to the guy as an individual, then, the rapist could be remembered his mother and leave the victim getting away.
I know this is very theoretical and may be hard to apply in real case as panic comes in, but still, the psychiatrist said that it would apply on 90% on rapists that are still human.
Now girls i hope you avoid the 10% of the rapists that are desperate cases.
quote:
Originally posted by Columbo:
I hope this will be helpful.I heard once on a TV show about sexual harassment that a victim had more chance to avoid the worse by taking the rapist by his feelings. It was a female psychiatrist that said it.
She said that if the victim acted like a tough woman, very distant, she had more chance to get raped.
If on the contrary the woman acted in a more tranquil way, showing no fear, and talking to the guy as an individual, then, the rapist could be remembered his mother and leave the victim getting away.I know this is very theoretical and may be hard to apply in real case as panic comes in, but still, the psychiatrist said that it would apply on 90% on rapists that are still human.
Now girls i hope you avoid the 10% of the rapists that are desperate cases.
Maybe. I was always taught (can you believe I took a class on personal security/rape avoidance as a girl scout when I was 10 or 11 and still wasn't really sure what sex was all about?), I was taught that you should walk in a very confident manner and stare someone in the eye that gives you the creeps. A rapist, since he does feel really weak inside, isn't going to mess with an aggressive woman.
I was also told of stories where women talked themselves out of the bad situation. One woman was leaving a party and was confronted at her car. The rapist was about to force her into her car by knifepoint. She calmly looked at him and smiled and told him he was so handsome, he certainly didn't need to force himself on any woman. She'd go with him right now to a hotel. But she forgot her coat inside...wait one minute and she'll be back.
Dumbass fell for it while she was calling 911 inside the safe house....
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
Maybe. I was always taught (can you believe I took a class on personal security/rape avoidance as a girl scout when I was 10 or 11 and still wasn't really sure what sex was all about?), I was taught that you should walk in a very confident manner and stare someone in the eye that gives you the creeps. A rapist, since he does feel really weak inside, isn't going to mess with an aggressive woman.
I'm starting Ving Chung classes next month, btw.
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
I was also told of stories where women talked themselves out of the bad situation. One woman was leaving a party and was confronted at her car. The rapist was about to force her into her car by knifepoint. She calmly looked at him and smiled and told him he was so handsome, he certainly didn't need to force himself on any woman. She'd go with him right now to a hotel. But she forgot her coat inside...wait one minute and she'll be back.Dumbass fell for it while she was calling 911 inside the safe house....
God what a bunch of crap! Those teachers of yours should stop watching Sex & the City!!
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
Maybe. I was always taught (can you believe I took a class on personal security/rape avoidance as a girl scout when I was 10 or 11 and still wasn't really sure what sex was all about?), I was taught that you should walk in a very confident manner and stare someone in the eye that gives you the creeps. A rapist, since he does feel really weak inside, isn't going to mess with an aggressive woman.I was also told of stories where women talked themselves out of the bad situation. One woman was leaving a party and was confronted at her car. The rapist was about to force her into her car by knifepoint. She calmly looked at him and smiled and told him he was so handsome, he certainly didn't need to force himself on any woman. She'd go with him right now to a hotel. But she forgot her coat inside...wait one minute and she'll be back.
Dumbass fell for it while she was calling 911 inside the safe house....
it finally depends on what figure of mother the guy has: sometimes it's good to be aggressive but with some other it's preferable not to be.
Each case is different from the other and should be studied so.
quote:
Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
God what a bunch of crap! Those teachers of yours should stop watching Sex & the City!!
i totally disagree with you on that point, i think there is a great educational effort done in such a TV show.
quote:
Originally posted by Columbo:
i totally disagree with you on that point, i think there is a great educational effort done in such a TV show.
Oh please don't misunderstand me!
SATC is the best show I've ever seen (together with Seinfeld).
But sometimes the salt & pepper was too much.
quote:
Originally posted by Columbo:
...
Columbo are you Swiss? We have a house in Lugano!
quote:
Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
Columbo are you Swiss? We have a house in Lugano!
I'm glad for you that you have a house in Lugano, it's really helpful for me to know it.
More seriously no i am not but i got some family settled in geneva
quote:
Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
God what a bunch of crap! Those teachers of yours should stop watching Sex & the City!!
This was 1977.
quote:
Originally posted by Snoozin:
This was 1977.
And mine was a silly joke!
quote:
Originally posted by Columbo:
I'm glad for you that you have a house in Lugano, it's really helpful for me to know it.
More seriously no i am not but i got some family settled in geneva
No offense buddy! I thought we might be neighbours or so..
quote:
Originally posted by Dalia:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troubles101:
[b] dressing in a provocative way while woman doesn't intened to be raped for it but is usually interpretated by rapers to be an invitation.
Absolutely. Rape is zero to do with attractiveness, dress or any outward signs and everything to do with power and subjugation. Having a drunken shag which you later regret and crying rape (which should be a severely punishable offence in my book)is NOT the same as actually being raped. Bitter experience. I know one anecdote doth not a proof make but I was known to my attacker, he was a work colleague of my boyfriend at the time, and he was 'punishing' my boyfriend for something. I was in jeans, jumper, boots. I am 1.77m and weighed about 75kg at the time - not exactly 'weak' looking. He was however ex-military, very tall and very fit and I could not fight him off.
[This message has been edited by catlover (edited 14 October 2005).]
quote:
originally posted by Troubles101 Hassancheb, Well at least we agree that dress can encourage something, but as for rape, you said that most of rape cases happen in victim's home but still most victims knew their rapists before being raped at home and the question remain why those victims were chosen between all people?
That’s the reason I said “opportunist rape similar to the situations in date rape cases”. Those type of perpetrators are not rapist in the “serial” sense, but opportunist that saw a chance to take advantage of a woman while she is vulnerable, which make several men, potential rapist, as women here are always dressing sexy! How many times do I have to repeat 'desensitized'.
He may not have even forced himself on her with physical violence, but tried things like drink spiking, that drug “ecstasy”, or the fact that she was already drunk and couldn’t fight him off. You hear about these types of cases with Professional athletes and important business men, when the women claimed she said “NO, and NO means NO” and in this case it’s defined as rape. But not only did she provoke him by dressing sexy, she also allowed him into her home, or went to a hotel or dorm room with him when she should have known his intentions, but again NO means NO, in legal terms anyway.
I was talking about the cases when men break into someone’s home, and forcefully rape her violently, there is no sexual attraction. Not the cases when women do things that cloud the judgment of men, playing on their weak visual sensibilities, teasing him in the heat of the moment, but not necessarily willing to go “all the way”, a man completely aroused sexually and then she says NO, may then become forceful. This is a different matter, this is an opportunist rapist. And yes, a lot of this goes unreported because sometimes the girl may feel that no one would believe her because she left with him voluntarily. She may not have consented to sex, but she did consent to being in a room with him.
But altogether, not to get away from the original point of sexual harassment, it rarely occurs in countries like the USA by dress mode alone. This country has too much sexual freedom, and it’s entirely too easy for young men to release pent up sexual desires by willing young ladies, while they may have a difficult time doing so in Egypt, because casual sex is illegal. Young boys here having sex several times a day, is rarely interested in every girl that passes him with a skirt on. It’s usually the little horny “not getting any” in the prime of puberty that are the prime architects of sexual harassment in Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Corvinous:
enough of it. it is getting boringgggg
Oh God, she makes me feel bored to death
the Raptologist
quote:
Originally posted by catlover:
Absolutely. Rape is zero to do with attractiveness, dress or any outward signs and everything to do with power and subjugation. Having a drunken shag which you later regret and crying rape (which should be a severely punishable offence in my book)is NOT the same as actually being raped. Bitter experience. I know one anecdote doth not a proof make but I was known to my attacker, he was a work colleague of my boyfriend at the time, and he was 'punishing' my boyfriend for something. I was in jeans, jumper, boots. I am 1.77m and weighed about 75kg at the time - not exactly 'weak' looking. He was however ex-military, very tall and very fit and I could not fight him off.[This message has been edited by catlover (edited 14 October 2005).]
Wow catlover!
I am sorry to hear about your experience, I pray that I am never raped! You are right, it doesn't matter how you're dressed, rapist have psychological disorders, a lot of anger and rage, and sex is their way of releasing anger, not "gaining" sexual pleasure. Date rape, or opportunistic rape, is different, and society tends to be less sympathetic of the victims for allowing herself to be put in these types of positions, getting drunk going to a hotel with some guy, and then changing your mind. I got your point!
Congratulations showered him from all around, and many exclamations of, "WOW!" was heard. A woman faints due to sympathy pains.
Two weeks later, he returns to the bar. The bartender says, "Say, you're the father of the typical Italian baby that weighed 25 pounds at birth. How much does he weigh now?"
The proud father answers, "Seventeen pounds."
The bartender is puzzled, concerned, "Why? What happened? He already weighed 25 pounds at birth."
The Italian father takes a slow swig from his long-neck Lone Star beer, wipes his lips on his shirt sleeve, leans in to the bartender and proudly says, "Had him circumcised."
quote:
Originally posted by catlover:
Absolutely. Rape is zero to do with attractiveness, dress or any outward signs and everything to do with power and subjugation. Having a drunken shag which you later regret and crying rape (which should be a severely punishable offence in my book)is NOT the same as actually being raped. Bitter experience. I know one anecdote doth not a proof make but I was known to my attacker, he was a work colleague of my boyfriend at the time, and he was 'punishing' my boyfriend for something. I was in jeans, jumper, boots. I am 1.77m and weighed about 75kg at the time - not exactly 'weak' looking. He was however ex-military, very tall and very fit and I could not fight him off.[This message has been edited by catlover (edited 14 October 2005).]
I'm sorry for what happwened to you.
To the main topic, I was not saying that sexy dress brings a raping thoughts to those rapists , the idea is already there and I agree, a big part of it is about power but my point was that such a kind of sexy dress makes woman an easier choice for rapists than others, beside any kind of behaviour that shows a sign of low resistance (like alcohol) or looks more accepting of it (like sexy dress)
To give a clue from a website which discusses rape myths :
quote:
MYTH: Some people ask to be sexually assaulted by their behavior or they way they dress.FACT: This is one of the most prevalent and powerful myths. It asks us to find the cause of assault in the victimÕs behavior or choices. No one asks or wants to be raped or assaulted, just as no one asks to have their car stolen, even if they forget and leave the keys in the ignition, be robbed or hit by a drunk driver. Sexual assault is always the responsibility of the perpetrator and never the responsibility of the victim. While some behaviors we choose may put us at some risk, they are only risky when there are offenders who are ready to take advantage of someone who is vulnerable. How someone dresses, where they go, what they do, or who they are in a relationship with is never justification for sexual assault.
I agree with most of what being said above specially the part I highlighted in bold which agrees with my point that while a woman wearing sexy cloths doesn't want to be raped yet she makes herself vulnerable to it by such a behaviour.
[This message has been edited by Troubles101 (edited 15 October 2005).]
quote:
Originally posted by Corvinous:
A Italian buys a round of drinks for all in the bar because, he
announces, his wife has just produced, "a typical Italian" baby boy weighing 25 pounds.Congratulations showered him from all around, and many exclamations of, "WOW!" was heard. A woman faints due to sympathy pains.
Two weeks later, he returns to the bar. The bartender says, "Say, you're the father of the typical Italian baby that weighed 25 pounds at birth. How much does he weigh now?"
The proud father answers, "Seventeen pounds."
The bartender is puzzled, concerned, "Why? What happened? He already weighed 25 pounds at birth."
The Italian father takes a slow swig from his long-neck Lone Star beer, wipes his lips on his shirt sleeve, leans in to the bartender and proudly says, "Had him circumcised."
If you don't like this thread don't post.
Shows your insensitivity towards women completely.
And that isn't a agreeable trait in a guy.
