following on from jamsie (hehe) and katangas comments on the driving in egypt thread...
i dont like the way 'the west' is seen to be one way compared to egypt... when there are countries further east of egypt that are both extremely poor and countries that are technological leaders. ive travelled to many countries and ive seen some places that make egypt look like california! what i have found is that everybody, no matter where in the world they are wants something better. when i go to nepal i bring various bits and bobs that the people there want, like tupperware food containers, and pretty dresses... the sherpas that guide us are all wearing odds and ends of top rate mountain gear left to them by the people on the last trek, i in turn, leave my own items to them... is this 'westernisation'??? course not!
also, here in the UK we are suffering from a terrible thing called AMERICANISATION. what we see on rap videos and gangster films is ending up on our kids, clothes, knives, even accents!!! so whats that called? it cant be westernisation.
now, as for what katanga was saying about the type of muslim that jamsie had seen in her gated community was not the type of muslim that katanga had grown up with... well.. why say that the girls who wear the head scarf tied round their pony tail are becoming 'westernised'... i dont wear that!!! is it not just egyptian muslims finding their own style, moving with the times and being individuals as much as any other young person where ever they live?
now go watch cribs and see how many americans are adopting yoga and feng shui and meditation and martial arts and thai chi and shiatsu massage etc etc etc... is american being easternised?
Posted by Queasier (Member # 6244) on :
There has got to be a happy medium somewhere.
I truly like how family-oriented Egyptians are. A total breath of fresh air for me. The sense of responsibility, caring, loyalty. My husband tells me story after story about his Egyptian friends watching out for their elderly parents or buying homes for their widowed sisters. But sometimes it seems to get stifling, and a person who doesn't fit the norm in Egyptian society faces *tremendous* social pressure to fit in.
We don't have as much social pressure here in the U.S. as Egypt seems to. But we also don't seem to look out for our families as well either. Here, if an adult child is still living at home at 25, he's a total freeloader. The act of *kicking a child out* after college seems unconscionable to my Egyptian husband. For me, I wouldn't have been caught dead living at home after about age 20.
Where is the happy medium between raising an independent, productive, and happy adult child vs. caring for her/him if life gets rough and s/he wants to live at home? How can we care for aging parents without losing our own identities? How do we maintain independence without being perceived as turning our backs on our families?
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
we are definitely seeing a reversal here in the UK. now that the amount of asylum seekers her is off the scale and the prices of houses is out of reach for the majority of first time buyers, we are seeing more and more children stay at home well into their 20s. also, there is a growing trend for middle aged couples to sell up both their home, and that of their parents home and buy one larger property... often taking children in their late teens/early 20 with them.
incidentally, i know of one family who did this and their teenage daughter is pregnant and is planning to stay at home... so thats 4 generations under one roof, and its getting to be quite common.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?: following on from jamsie (hehe) and katangas comments on the driving in egypt thread...
i dont like the way 'the west' is seen to be one way compared to egypt... when there are countries further east of egypt that are both extremely poor and countries that are technological leaders. ive travelled to many countries and ive seen some places that make egypt look like california! what i have found is that everybody, no matter where in the world they are wants something better. when i go to nepal i bring various bits and bobs that the people there want, like tupperware food containers, and pretty dresses... the sherpas that guide us are all wearing odds and ends of top rate mountain gear left to them by the people on the last trek, i in turn, leave my own items to them... is this 'westernisation'??? course not!
also, here in the UK we are suffering from a terrible thing called AMERICANISATION. what we see on rap videos and gangster films is ending up on our kids, clothes, knives, even accents!!! so whats that called? it cant be westernisation.
now, as for what katanga was saying about the type of muslim that jamsie had seen in her gated community was not the type of muslim that katanga had grown up with... well.. why say that the girls who wear the head scarf tied round their pony tail are becoming 'westernised'... i dont wear that!!! is it not just egyptian muslims finding their own style, moving with the times and being individuals as much as any other young person where ever they live?
now go watch cribs and see how many americans are adopting yoga and feng shui and meditation and martial arts and thai chi and shiatsu massage etc etc etc... is american being easternised?
It's not really about how you dress (although I do understand that it says a lot about who you are). It's about setting priorities in life. In the west it's the individual. Personal space is a sacred thing that is guarded fiercely. People seem to put up facades and strive to maintain a winner image. Where I come from - albeit changing - it's family and community. It does put up pressure on you to conform but it also doesn't turn a country into a Prozac nation.
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
dont you see?... its not an east v west thing
where i come from people are community minded, are generally poor, live the simple life, look after the family no matter how old they are... that place is scotland... in the west.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?: dont you see?... its not an east v west thing
where i come from people are community minded, are generally poor, live the simple life, look after the family no matter how old they are... that place is scotland... in the west.
West of what ? Maybe I shouldn't call it the west. Just refer to it as individualism. I wonder if it all started with Adam Smith's argument about the invisible hand - albeit he did say it was the invisible hand of God.
Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
I'm unconvinced we are 'suffering' from being exposed to the world's diverse cultures. Technology has made our worlds smaller, the exposure to other countries greater. American influence is huge due to factors like its sheer size, marketing, commercial and technological dominance, a prolific music and film industry. Despite America's vast (and often ugly) corporate face, eastern culture, values and influence is touching western culture too. Take the saturation of eastern music, as one small example.
Economic prosperity leads to people leading increasingly individual lifestyles. Westerners are more likely to find opportunities away from their immediate families and establish independence more quickly. The price of prosperity, is the loss of traditional family structures. Extended families have retracted. Economic choice means that the old and the sick can be cared for 'professionally.' Although the growth of retirement and nursing homes is huge. it would be false to imply that all old people are 'abandoned' in homes, or that there were not millions of loving carers, devoting their life to looking after their families, in the west. There is simply the choice not to have to do so. Nursing homes, in the west of Scotland are as plentiful as anywhere else in the UK - is there evidence that demographic trends indicate otherwise?
As eastern countries develop economically, they will be faced with the same dilemmas of the west. How do you work full time and look after a sick parent? How do you find time, in a frantic week, for family and friends? We have much to learn from each others successes and mistakes.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?:
now go watch cribs and see how many americans are adopting yoga and feng shui and meditation and martial arts and thai chi and shiatsu massage etc etc etc... is american being easternised?
Note that all of the above mentioned disciplines are self oriented that are meant to provide peace of mind or strength of body Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Economic prosperity leads to people leading increasingly individual lifestyles. Westerners are more likely to find opportunities away from their immediate families and establish independence more quickly. The price of prosperity, is the loss of traditional family structures. Extended families have retracted.
Not necessarily. I know so many very well to do families in Egypt that live in a sort of compound (usually they would buy a building with each family occupying a floor). Just providing this as an example that it's not the case that when you have money you tend to be independent. I believe it’s a personal choice that people make. Assumingly to find out whom they really are? Again, they spend their life on a journey of self discovery being all over the place. And that's simply because they come first. The person before the family.
Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
Katangah,
I have Egyptian friends who live in the way you describe. They are often tied to a collective family business. In the west, people often have to move, for economic reasons. This is not a personal choice, but an economic one. Over time, this leads to families being more distant, fractured - than those with the option of just adding another floor to the family home.
Western families tend to be smaller, often moving away from the area they were brought up in. Of course, this happens in Egypt to, but less so. As Egypt develops economically...when women don't have to live with their families...changes will happen here too.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
I don't think that economic development and leading a more individualistic life style go hand in hand or the later is the product of the first. Often in Egypt people have to move to other countries altogether but that doesn't lead to the same life style. You see, often the husband is away working in a different country while the wife and kids are being cared for in the family home.
Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
Often in Egypt people have to move to other countries altogether but that doesn't lead to the same life style. You see, often the husband is away working in a different country while the wife and kids are being cared for in the family home.
kananga's point above shows the difference between our definition of economic development. Egypt is a third world country. America and the UK have relatively rich economies. As these economies have expanded, developed, people have moved away from living in family groups. This is a question of financial necessity. In order to have a good education, career, people have had to relocate. This has led to the shrinkage of the traditional family unit.
In Egypt, there are rich people. I am not disputing that. My point concerns the general populations. In Egypt, religion has a much greater influence. Young men and women don't have the economic means to leave home should they disagree with the views of their family. This is especially relevant, regarding women. Women don't have the same financial or economic independence, as those in the west.
What I am arguing is that economic and financial advances (for the whole population) will, in time, reshape the way people live. At the moment, few Egyptians have the choice to live any other way. Hopefully, when things do start to change, some of the mistakes of western development can be avoided.
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: I'm unconvinced we are 'suffering' from being exposed to the world's diverse cultures.
Nursing homes, in the west of Scotland are as plentiful as anywhere else in the UK - is there evidence that demographic trends indicate otherwise?
i agree with you entirely, i just thought id pick out these two points cause i think you have misunderstood me.
1. i used the word 'suffering' with direct regards to the knife/gangster culture that our kids seem to want to copycat. i will never see a positive there.
2. i meant scotland is in the west, not the west of scotland. and im not saying that there are no nursing homes there, that would make me have the same 'all or nothing' attitude that im telling katanga not to have.
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?:
now go watch cribs and see how many americans are adopting yoga and feng shui and meditation and martial arts and thai chi and shiatsu massage etc etc etc... is american being easternised?
Note that all of the above mentioned disciplines are self oriented that are meant to provide peace of mind or strength of body
whats that got to do with anything? isnt tying a head scarf in a certain way self orientated? im sure the way young egyptians are dressing is promoting personal strength of character etc etc..
you seem to think its 'west bad east good'.
Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
Economic prosperity leads to people leading increasingly individual lifestyles. Westerners are more likely to find opportunities away from their immediate families and establish independence more quickly. The price of prosperity, is the loss of traditional family structures. Extended families have retracted.
Not necessarily. I know so many very well to do families in Egypt that live in a sort of compound (usually they would buy a building with each family occupying a floor). Just providing this as an example that it's not the case that when you have money you tend to be independent. I believe it’s a personal choice that people make. Assumingly to find out whom they really are? Again, they spend their life on a journey of self discovery being all over the place. And that's simply because they come first. The person before the family.
i dont know where you live katanga... but you are not describing anywhere i know. the family is a big deal for the people i know... and what about italy?
there is no big divide between east and west.
compare wales to singapore... london to bangladesh...
its country to country, then even within a country its region to region, then within that its family to family, person to person.
Posted by Tibe (Member # 10253) on :
Not to mention all of the ethnic restaurants where they serve mainly or only food from their homecountries. I love chinese food, - my children loves McDonalds, - I love shopping for spices and other small dishes in the small "paki" supermarkets. - That makes my country cultural richer and more exciting. We take the best from all cultures and that cant imposible be bad for any country. That must be the same in egypt.
Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
Charm el Feikh, thanks for the clarification. Your 'all or nothing' point is telling. Too often, west and east are encouraged to focus on each other's bad points. Islam is portrayed as a religion of murderous intolerance...and the west as hedonistic, immoral, greedy.
The truth is that we can learn from each other. As Tibe suggests, why not ''take the best from all cultures''?
Until we are prepared to listen and communicate, that won't happen. We also need to have to have more faith in humanity's ability to overcome evil - and less faith in authorities and doctrine.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee:
What I am arguing is that economic and financial advances (for the whole population) will, in time, reshape the way people live. At the moment, few Egyptians have the choice to live any other way. Hopefully, when things do start to change, some of the mistakes of western development can be avoided.
I still don't agree with that. If anything economic development should provide more of an opportunity to stay where you are. Here in Canada, there are opportunities everywhere. Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary ... etc. While there are differences in standards of living, it's definitely not as much as it's the case in Egypt where you have Cairo basically cannibalizing the Economy and Education systems. In Egypt in order to get a good job or have good education, you have to be in Cairo or at least Alexandria. That's not the case in the US or Canada or UK ... etc. I still believe that's it's a personal choice.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?: [whats that got to do with anything? isnt tying a head scarf in a certain way self orientated? im sure the way young egyptians are dressing is promoting personal strength of character etc etc..
you seem to think its 'west bad east good'.
It's a personal choice of course. The purpose of the act here is supposedly to divert attention away from the girl in order for her to preserve herself. Compare that to the majority where I live now where making a fashion statement for attention is a quest.
Posted by yazid904 (Member # 7708) on :
1. Westernization and Americanization are too completely different things. 2. A woman without a hijab is not westernized woman. She is exercising her right as she wishes. If a woman wants to wear a hijab, should be able to do that but the present mode of categorizing with hijab or without hijab is a sorrowful state. 3. I was home with my parents in my 20's and my American friends thought I was a child and it was humorous! Leaving home at 18 and over is considered proper for US (American culture)!
Posted by SayWhatYouSee (Member # 11552) on :
Katanga,
It could be argued that London, Paris, New York...or any huge cities also are guilty of ''cannibalizing''. The Canadian cities you mention are prosperous and large. Economic development comes at a price. That price today, often involves the migration of labour. Of course, it would be ideal, if industry boomed on our doorsteps...then we could all stay at home. Are you honestly suggesting that all Egyptians stay at home through personal choice - and that Egyptians are somehow more home loving, family respecting - as they make such sacrifices? I suspect high unemployment and poor prospects force people into living with their families longer than they would wish.
I am not saying that there are not benefits to this - simply that when people have to make economic choices, the structure of society tends to change. In the UK, people have to move where the work is. Sure, if you are rich, you can do anything you please - but ordinary folks don't have that luxury.
Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
I was just wondering why the young egyptian girls wear the hijab as they do? I was under the impression that it was to cover the neck, shoulders and chest? Am I wrong? The current trend I see now is that they wear it tied around their head and then twisted around in a tight 'bun' around the pony tail neither covering the neck, chest or shoulders. The other fashion of wearing nylon tight polo neck tops, with the emphasis being on tight. Then wearing a nightdress type thing on top of that which accentuates the bust, and has thin straps on the shoulders. I was under the impression ( obviously wrongly ) that the outer garments were supposed to be long and baggy enough not to reveal the shape of the woman. These young moslem girls are accentuating their figures, just as the 'western' girls do. They leave little to the imagination in their tight jeans, and skimpy underwear tops............... It just seems a bit hypocritical.
Posted by Albino_Eskimo (Member # 11479) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?:
also, here in the UK we are suffering from a terrible thing called AMERICANISATION. what we see on rap videos and gangster films is ending up on our kids, clothes, knives, even accents!!! so whats that called? it cant be westernisation.
I haven't read the rest of the thread yet (which is a major faux pah) but I will make a remark on this part which I know hasn't been addressed yet.
Its not Americanization you are refering to in the passage above, not African-Americanization because not all African Americans are gansters (some of them are actually extremely annoying yuppies and suburbanites like all other annoying yuppies and suburbanites) but its called gangsterization.
Yup it really doesn't have anything to do with Motown, R&B, or even Hip Hop. No its age old gangsters.
Japanese have gangsters, Sicilians have always been gangsters, Gypsies have been falsely branded as gangsters, Ruskies are quickly creating their own pure octane of Gangsters, Latinos are learning top form of gangster ephinany from the Mexican federalies, Chinese are treating the WTO as their own Gangster Eporium, even the Indians from India have their own gangsters but consider it part of the caste system.
You could even say Western Imperialism is its own form of Gangsterism.
Sorry its not Americanism, its opportunism.
Posted by Albino_Eskimo (Member # 11479) on :
quote:Originally posted by yazid904: 3. I was home with my parents in my 20's and my American friends thought I was a child and it was humorous! Leaving home at 18 and over is considered proper for US (American culture)!
Nowdays its normal for a boy to stay home with his parents until he is 30!
Women go out and get their own flats, go to college and hold down 2 jobs at the same time. Then they are stupid enough to hand over money to these "mamas boys" for their NOX hyped up cars, let alone all the other extremely expensive luxury habits young men have now days.
I am truly attracted to older men for good reason! Posted by Charm el Feikh? (Member # 10243) on :
yeah but only america have got the term gangsterization... we havnt cottoned on to that yet.. its still americanisation here... but dont worry.. in a year or so we'll copy what you call it!!
Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
so noe egyptian women to comment on the hijab thing? Have I hit a nerve? or was my understanding of hijab wrong?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
your understanding of hijab is correct.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
Jamsiecottar, I guess the hijabwearing to some girls has more to do with fashion and identity then with chastity. To me that is not hypocritical, I don't take myself black and white, why should I take an Egyptian girl that way. Since I am religious some people believe I am against abortion, womenrights and whatever, just prejudice.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
ehm, what's with the fashion talk anyway :-)
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Jamsiecottar, I guess the hijabwearing to some girls has more to do with fashion and identity then with chastity. To me that is not hypocritical, I don't take myself black and white, why should I take an Egyptian girl that way. Since I am religious some people believe I am against abortion, womenrights and whatever, just prejudice.
We hebben meer Demianas nodig in deze wereld wallahi!
Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Queasier: There has got to be a happy medium somewhere.
I truly like how family-oriented Egyptians are. A total breath of fresh air for me. The sense of responsibility, caring, loyalty. My husband tells me story after story about his Egyptian friends watching out for their elderly parents or buying homes for their widowed sisters. But sometimes it seems to get stifling, and a person who doesn't fit the norm in Egyptian society faces *tremendous* social pressure to fit in.
We don't have as much social pressure here in the U.S. as Egypt seems to. But we also don't seem to look out for our families as well either. Here, if an adult child is still living at home at 25, he's a total freeloader. The act of *kicking a child out* after college seems unconscionable to my Egyptian husband. For me, I wouldn't have been caught dead living at home after about age 20.
Where is the happy medium between raising an independent, productive, and happy adult child vs. caring for her/him if life gets rough and s/he wants to live at home? How can we care for aging parents without losing our own identities? How do we maintain independence without being perceived as turning our backs on our families?
just different ~
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Charm el Feikh?: i dont know where you live katanga... but you are not describing anywhere i know. the family is a big deal for the people i know... and what about italy?
The values of Europeans
We often read or hear about how individualistic our society has become. Yet survey results indicate that Europeans are still very interested in their fellow citizens. More than 9 in 10 EU citizens feel that it is extremely or very important to help others and to value people for who they are (Graph 3). Furthermore, more than 8 in 10 Europeans believe it is important to be involved in creating a better society. These societal values are strong in each of the 15 Member States.
So while these results may calm concerns about the extent to which individualism is affecting life at the end of the 20th century, EU citizens nonetheless seem to have a yearning for traditionalism (Graph 4). Nearly 7 in 10 want to live in a world in which people live by traditional values and just about half of the people feel that we’d be better off if we returned to our traditional ways of doing things. However, a longing for traditionalism does not necessarily mean that everything should go back to the way it used to be: only 25% of Europeans agree that a husband’s job is to earn the money and a wife’s job is to look after the home. Traditional values are most prominent in Greece and least popular in the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden.
A clear sign of modern times is the value people attach to success and self-development. Three in four EU citizens regard being successful in life as important and half of the people feel this way about making a lot of money. Furthermore, we find that 79% of EU citizens feel it is important to put more time and effort into their own self-development and 68% feel it is important to discover more things about themselves.
And how come no one commented on the Adam Smith note I made ??
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
Did anyone notice how acceptable the view of the future is in futuristic dramas. Like hollywood movies. People acting almost like robots without any depth of relations. Seems to the western mind like a natural evolution of the current life style. I wouldn't imagine an Egyptian futuristic drama featuring the same conclusions would be acceptable to the Egyptian mind. Just a thought ...
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
absolutely it's about fashion and ignornace. Consider why most Egyptian muslim girls get married showing shoulders, chest, full hair, everything. It's not hypocritical at all, it's a break down in the soceity with the Islamic beliefs. There is such an innundation from the West on Egyptian television, and not to consider the lax lebanese influence, it's no wonder the girls here would rather look like that (impossibly) than respect their own beliefs. I saw a girl in the store the other day wearing a bun head scarf, so much make up you could use it for frosting on a cake, FAKE EYELASHES (omg that was funny, I didn't think anybody wore those since the 60's), and when everybody stared at her she seemed embarrassed. But not embarrassed enough from Allah....I mean seriously why put on a head scarf at all, unless you're attempting to hide your bad hair?
Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
Got it...............It's funny I had all these pre conceived ideas of what it would be like to live in a moslem country but each day they seem to be broken down. The article banana face put up yesterday about Islam and the actual moslems was so true. My husband had a pair of his best shoes stolen from the rack outside the mosque.........sad really............... Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Got it...............It's funny I had all these pre conceived ideas of what it would be like to live in a moslem country but each day they seem to be broken down. The article banana face put up yesterday about Islam and the actual moslems was so true. My husband had a pair of his best shoes stolen from the rack outside the mosque.........sad really...............
Yeah, it's sad. Enron was a sad story too. Tyco as well. The billions scooped up from Iraq is a sad situation as well.
We might be idiots ma'm but we're not the bigger thieves here. At least most here would steal to eat ... Go figure.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Yes Katangah I agree ABSOLUTELY however, we're not talking about Islamic countries. These are corporations who are by nature money hungry and while it was disgusting, it was not surprising (at least not to me). Also these people were put away in prision, because people admitted what they did and how it hurt(s) people. I embrace the best of the Muslims in Egypt and there are SOOO many, I guess I was naive about what to expect in an "islamic" country as a revert, that's all.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
You wouldn't believe me but I left Egypt for this. Hypocrisy. Can't deny it. But in the past few years, I have to admit that I have seen hypocrisy on a much higher scale around here. I've lost money on the stock market alongside thousands others on a company that was supposed to be solid. We're currently involved in a class action against those executives. I have seen the Americans invade and destroy a country for oil with the brits chipping in to get a piece of the cake. I've also seen people who claim to have the power of democracy do nothing ... Again, Egyptians might be naively idiotic. But like other Middle Eastern countries, they're so helpless, they're completely harmless.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Of course, what do you expect in a capitolistic soceity? I left for many reasons (those were part), not to mention crime, the fact that schools are war zones, the failing education system, high out of wedlock birth rates, abortion, drug abuse, public drunkenness, etc. The list goes on and on. I came because I wanted to live in a soceity that could help me to embrace my identity as a Muslim, and while I can do that better here, there are some things surprising to me. I would rather be here than anywhere, even if I do miss home sometimes and see ridiclously ignorant things/people here. I can go home for the same things, just different things. peace ~
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: And how come no one commented on the Adam Smith note I made ??
You mean about the 'invisible hand' being of the market? Don't know. Where I come from we don't idolize capitalism.
Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
I am not talking about who is the bigger theives, I totally agree with you in regards the west. That is partly why I moved, just the same as Smuckers, it is just that I expected it to be so different. I was naive............I suppose, I expected moslems to at least try to appear to follow Islam. Yes there are the percentage who do, but it just seems that there are many more who do not................. And Islam is not just about the 5 pillars.....................that seems to be the ones that are the easiest to adhere to, so maybe those are the most important? Get to Mecca, pay tax, pray 5 times etc but dont worry about the little theiving that goes on, the cruelty, the selfishness............
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
If you're really perplexed about the hejab thing, I should tell you that it's a debatable issue. Meaning, you can actually debate whether it's an Islamic requirement. Of course you would hear differently from most out there, but then again, 99.9999% of them have never actually opened one of the sources of Shari3a (Islamic Doctrines). Just like most Christians are not biblical scholars anyway. Hijab is a Persian tradition actually.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
I really do love Egypt and the people (generally). I chose this as my home, chose to live here with my Egyptian husband and raise our children together in this soceity and culture. But that doesn't mean I have to close my eyes and turn my head like many people here do, I don't do the same in America my own country! Why would I possibly start now?? Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: I am not talking about who is the bigger theives, I totally agree with you in regards the west. That is partly why I moved, just the same as Smuckers, it is just that I expected it to be so different. I was naive............I suppose, I expected moslems to at least try to appear to follow Islam. Yes there are the percentage who do, but it just seems that there are many more who do not................. And Islam is not just about the 5 pillars.....................that seems to be the ones that are the easiest to adhere to, so maybe those are the most important? Get to Mecca, pay tax, pray 5 times etc but dont worry about the little theiving that goes on, the cruelty, the selfishness............
Well, there is no utopia anywhere and never been. The interesting thing is that if you converse with most Egyptians you would see that they're complaining of the same issues and - well - kind perplexed about it as well. I find it almost a funny when I go home for a visit and tease my younger sister about wearing Hejab and jeans ... but she is just a girl anyway. Just be careful and don't trust much. Actually the more religious the figure the more suspicious you should be. Hate to say it but sadly true.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
I have never heard or seen an Egyptian christian woman wearing hijab or a scarf for that matter. It does make them stick out in the crowd though. I know western christian women wearing hijab (in Egypt) though. Don't know, some maybe on the road to revert or maybe just to match within the family and not raise all sorts of questions.
I believe someone is personally responsible for giving meaning to the wearing of hijab. I am not the one to push them in the stereotyped ideas some might have of it or make a guess and assumptions about the 'standard' meaning of hijab according to whatever believesystem. Girls will be girls. Even Madonna does wear a cross, does that make her hypocritical?
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: I am not talking about who is the bigger theives, I totally agree with you in regards the west. That is partly why I moved, just the same as Smuckers, it is just that I expected it to be so different. I was naive............I suppose, I expected moslems to at least try to appear to follow Islam. Yes there are the percentage who do, but it just seems that there are many more who do not................. And Islam is not just about the 5 pillars.....................that seems to be the ones that are the easiest to adhere to, so maybe those are the most important? Get to Mecca, pay tax, pray 5 times etc but dont worry about the little theiving that goes on, the cruelty, the selfishness............
Actually the more religious the figure the more suspicious you should be. Hate to say it but sadly true.
that is interesting, what do you mean exactly? and just out of curosity, which country are you living currently? take care.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana:
quote:Originally posted by katangah: And how come no one commented on the Adam Smith note I made ??
You mean about the 'invisible hand' being of the market? Don't know. Where I come from we don't idolize capitalism.
Well, Adam Smith is the father of modern Economics, Capitalism and Liberalism. He provided the logical reasoning behind free market by introducing this concept of the "invisible hand" meaning that the market will achieve equilibrium on its own without government intervention and with absence of any regulatory issues. His ideas were the basis on which modern liberalism was founded. Basically making the individual and the individual needs and aspiration (in a selfish manner) the cornerstone of society workings.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
I have never heard or seen an Egyptian christian woman wearing hijab or a scarf for that matter. It does make them stick out in the crowd though. I know western christian women wearing hijab (in Egypt) though. Don't know, some maybe on the road to revert or maybe just to match within the family and not raise all sorts of questions.
I believe someone is personally responsible for giving meaning to the wearing of hijab. I am not the one to push them in the stereotyped ideas some might have of it or make a guess and assumptions about the 'standard' meaning of hijab according to whatever believesystem. Girls will be girls. Even Madonna does wear a cross, does that make her hypocritical?
Absolutely it does, all the way to her writing children's books. but I don't expect more from her either.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
I have never heard or seen an Egyptian christian woman wearing hijab or a scarf for that matter. It does make them stick out in the crowd though. I know western christian women wearing hijab (in Egypt) though. Don't know, some maybe on the road to revert or maybe just to match within the family and not raise all sorts of questions.
I believe someone is personally responsible for giving meaning to the wearing of hijab. I am not the one to push them in the stereotyped ideas some might have of it or make a guess and assumptions about the 'standard' meaning of hijab according to whatever believesystem. Girls will be girls. Even Madonna does wear a cross, does that make her hypocritical?
Actually christian women in rural traditional areas cover their hair.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Demiana:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
I have never heard or seen an Egyptian christian woman wearing hijab or a scarf for that matter. It does make them stick out in the crowd though. I know western christian women wearing hijab (in Egypt) though. Don't know, some maybe on the road to revert or maybe just to match within the family and not raise all sorts of questions.
I believe someone is personally responsible for giving meaning to the wearing of hijab. I am not the one to push them in the stereotyped ideas some might have of it or make a guess and assumptions about the 'standard' meaning of hijab according to whatever believesystem. Girls will be girls. Even Madonna does wear a cross, does that make her hypocritical?
Actually christian women in rural traditional areas cover their hair.
My christian mother covers her hair when going to mass (church).
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
quote:Originally posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari:
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: Jamsiecottar, I guess the hijabwearing to some girls has more to do with fashion and identity then with chastity. To me that is not hypocritical, I don't take myself black and white, why should I take an Egyptian girl that way. Since I am religious some people believe I am against abortion, womenrights and whatever, just prejudice.
We hebben meer Demianas nodig in deze wereld wallahi!
Thanks MK, just opting to become a saint!:-)
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: I am not talking about who is the bigger theives, I totally agree with you in regards the west. That is partly why I moved, just the same as Smuckers, it is just that I expected it to be so different. I was naive............I suppose, I expected moslems to at least try to appear to follow Islam. Yes there are the percentage who do, but it just seems that there are many more who do not................. And Islam is not just about the 5 pillars.....................that seems to be the ones that are the easiest to adhere to, so maybe those are the most important? Get to Mecca, pay tax, pray 5 times etc but dont worry about the little theiving that goes on, the cruelty, the selfishness............
Actually the more religious the figure the more suspicious you should be. Hate to say it but sadly true.
that is interesting, what do you mean exactly? and just out of curosity, which country are you living currently? take care.
Canada. Many wear the religious fatigue to con others. In the eighties and early nineties for example there many sort of investments management companies that were supposed to be "Islamic" whatever the heck that means. They scammed people out of billions. They had backing from some big Azhar shekhs (Sha3rawi for one). Father lost lots of money there. I was too young then, but on my last visit a couple of months ago I asked him what exactly was the legal nature of these companies? He didn't know. All he knew was that everybody was dealing with them cause they were good pious muslim guys. He didn't even have a contract. Only a receipt. Sad really.
Just be careful.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Demiana:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
I have never heard or seen an Egyptian christian woman wearing hijab or a scarf for that matter. It does make them stick out in the crowd though. I know western christian women wearing hijab (in Egypt) though. Don't know, some maybe on the road to revert or maybe just to match within the family and not raise all sorts of questions.
I believe someone is personally responsible for giving meaning to the wearing of hijab. I am not the one to push them in the stereotyped ideas some might have of it or make a guess and assumptions about the 'standard' meaning of hijab according to whatever believesystem. Girls will be girls. Even Madonna does wear a cross, does that make her hypocritical?
Actually christian women in rural traditional areas cover their hair.
Sure, I was expecting that. But it does look different, they are different types of scarfs. I am sure although traditional with some comparable reason. Besides some widows might wear a scarf for a year or longer. They are no part of the hijabisation of Egypt since the last decades.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
Actually if they're wearing the traditional black galabiah thing, then they usually cover their hair with some sort of scarf (usually black as well). You can't tell them apart from muslim women.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Demiana:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: Demiana and Ayisha
Do you think some christian girls wear the tight bun scarf thing? or would it only be moslem girls.
If the whole idea of hijab was to cover the shoulders etc and they dont use it as such, is it not hypocritical? Please explain in a bit more detail as to it not being hypocritical. I'm not getting the logic here. Thanks
I have never heard or seen an Egyptian christian woman wearing hijab or a scarf for that matter. It does make them stick out in the crowd though. I know western christian women wearing hijab (in Egypt) though. Don't know, some maybe on the road to revert or maybe just to match within the family and not raise all sorts of questions.
I believe someone is personally responsible for giving meaning to the wearing of hijab. I am not the one to push them in the stereotyped ideas some might have of it or make a guess and assumptions about the 'standard' meaning of hijab according to whatever believesystem. Girls will be girls. Even Madonna does wear a cross, does that make her hypocritical?
Actually christian women in rural traditional areas cover their hair.
My christian mother covers her hair when going to mass (church).
I do when I attend mass. My reason for it is to attend to churchregulations. When I go to work I have to comply to the dresscode also. But I know women will give you different reasons to do so. Some traditional, some religious/pious, some without a thought.
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah: Actually if they're wearing the traditional black galabiah thing, then they usually cover their hair with some sort of scarf (usually black as well). You can't tell them apart from muslim women.
In the city you can by the type of their scarfs, long and embroidered or plain silk and the way they hang it loosely over their hair or just like the scarfs you would see in the west in the fifties. I am not sure about the countryside. They may have comparable ways to dress since it is more traditional than 'modern' hijablike.
Posted by MyKingdomForATaba2Koshari (Member # 8356) on :
quote:Originally posted by Demiana: [I have never heard or seen an Egyptian christian woman wearing hijab or a scarf for that matter.
In some classes and rural villages wearing a head cover is just a cultural thing, regardless of what one's affiliation is.
But you can also see ladies of the upper class wearing headscarves during services, like the lady in the lower right corner in the picture. .. Not that it covers anything really! Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by katangah:
quote:Originally posted by Jamsie Cottar: I am not talking about who is the bigger theives, I totally agree with you in regards the west. That is partly why I moved, just the same as Smuckers, it is just that I expected it to be so different. I was naive............I suppose, I expected moslems to at least try to appear to follow Islam. Yes there are the percentage who do, but it just seems that there are many more who do not................. And Islam is not just about the 5 pillars.....................that seems to be the ones that are the easiest to adhere to, so maybe those are the most important? Get to Mecca, pay tax, pray 5 times etc but dont worry about the little theiving that goes on, the cruelty, the selfishness............
Actually the more religious the figure the more suspicious you should be. Hate to say it but sadly true.
that is interesting, what do you mean exactly? and just out of curosity, which country are you living currently? take care.
Canada. Many wear the religious fatigue to con others. In the eighties and early nineties for example there many sort of investments management companies that were supposed to be "Islamic" whatever the heck that means. They scammed people out of billions. They had backing from some big Azhar shekhs (Sha3rawi for one). Father lost lots of money there. I was too young then, but on my last visit a couple of months ago I asked him what exactly was the legal nature of these companies? He didn't know. All he knew was that everybody was dealing with them cause they were good pious muslim guys. He didn't even have a contract. Only a receipt. Sad really.
Just be careful.
ohhh I HATE thieves, no matter the nationality, religion, race, etc. Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
She could have fooled me!:-)
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
some of my family are catholic and very traditional from irish italian and they cover from top to bottom head scarf all the time and always n frggen black ,this is my mothers side ....and u cud mistaken them for turkish ..
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
. Girls will be girls. Even Madonna does wear a cross, does that make her hypocritical? [/qb][/QUOTE]Absolutely it does, all the way to her writing children's books. but I don't expect more from her either. [/QB][/QUOTE]
I do admire her for the strong and genuine way she is carying herself and juggling with images and taboos and is succesfull with it. I would only call someone hypocritical if they don't live up to their own sanctoreligious or other selfproclaimed standards. That is what makes religious and other ideological correct people overall so obnoxious sometimes. They pretend to have high standards and fool you with them.
Posted by Jamsie Cottar (Member # 9824) on :
So is the hijab more a cultural thing , than a religious thing If moslems cannot agree on the interpretation of the quran ?
Would you say that most young women in egypt for instance wear hijab, not for what the quran says, but for what their families would. And if so will we eventually see a decline in the hijab with it phasing out altogether?
Culture is a toolkit. Although I believe that fundamentalism will back down eventually it does not mean that women will denounce the fashion or identitypart of their clothing of choice. Or the religiouspart of it. It all will depend on the meaning that is transmitted with it, the image they want to make to the larger society and the rolemodels they will have or which way they look for ideas.
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
personaly id love to see all womenwearing headscarf to what designs they like me personaly im ona rebellion streak at the moment im not wearing it probably cause of the **** me getting andi shudnt take it out on the faith i have but its messing with my mind all together sometimes i wish me was a nudest freak ,make me life a whole lot better...
Posted by Demiana (Member # 2710) on :
And it is in the reward or the quality of communication they get when wearing it.
Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
I am happy, comfortable and proud to wear hijab, people's ignorance and negative does get to you, I've had lots of negativity in the uk and it is hard but you cope.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
I agree Ya Ragal, to choose to wear it is a personal choice, along with HOW to wear it as well.
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
shaw i agree but to wear the hijab your mouth has to be in tone as well ,
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
yes but we can't say that or make that choice for others really. we are all responsible for our own actions and words...we will all be judged in some form.
Posted by cHiMpSs (Member # 11270) on :
my words exactly u said it for me ta very much chukkk,
Posted by Ya Ragal (Member # 11695) on :
exactly, so how people wear it, really isn't our concern, it's other things that go along with wearing hijab, and we are all responsible for our own actions, we have to look to ourselves before we judge others
Posted by Paint Me As I Am (Member # 7796) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I really do love Egypt and the people (generally). I chose this as my home, chose to live here with my Egyptian husband and raise our children together in this soceity and culture. But that doesn't mean I have to close my eyes and turn my head like many people here do, I don't do the same in America my own country! Why would I possibly start now??
Same here Smucks- Love Egypt and the People--Am so missing it Soon ISA--- I will return back 4good.. Posted by katangah (Member # 11586) on :
For the record, I thought it was funny. If anyone found it insulting, then please accept my apology.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
You're kind Katangah, everyone is entitled to be themselves on ES, we love you
Paint me, yes, inshallah you will come back soon!! Remember we have your room waiting !! Posted by Paint Me As I Am (Member # 7796) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
Paint me, yes, inshallah you will come back soon!! Remember we have your room waiting !! [/QB]
Ur so sweet Bella XOXOX
ISA--soon
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Happy to see you back Paint me, too bad there aren't kinder people like you in ES, hope the family is well Posted by Paint Me As I Am (Member # 7796) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Happy to see you back Paint me, too bad there aren't kinder people like you in ES, hope the family is well
Thx Hun, Alhamdulillah we are all fine.. Hope ur family is tamam as well.
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