Proves to the Egyptian men here who have never been outside Egypt that women are able to walk down the streets of Manhattan half naked and even attracting attention by calling to the passers by and the most she gets is a horn blowing!
I think that was your point?
Sort of puts into perspective the old hijab and niqab thing doesn't it.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
Hi, yes indeedy! I emailed JB last nite
hehe this clip cracked me up, the lengths she had to go to get a horn honked at her "that was difficult to watch" LOL Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
LOL Imagine if we did that experiment in Cairo!
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: LOL Imagine if we did that experiment in Cairo!
Hijab and Niqab does NOT stop sexual harassment, or unwanted attention.
It intensifies it!
Women need to be part of the solution NOT the problem here.
I can't even begin to imagine 1 second in Cairo never mind one block Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: Hijab and Niqab does NOT stop sexual harassment, or unwanted attention.
It intensifies it!
Sadly true.
Posted by Expecto Patronum (Alchemist) (Member # 12318) on :
I think if you did that experiment in Cairo that the men would be in so much shock they could only stare, afraid to even blink for fear that it might turn out to be a dream.
Disclaimer: Alchemist does not advocate walking down the street in Cairo in your panties.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by Expecto Patronum (Alchemist): I think if you did that experiment in Cairo that the men would be in so much shock they could only stare, afraid to even blink for fear that it might turn out to be a dream.
Disclaimer: Alchemist does not advocate walking down the street in Cairo in your panties.
Posted by esso7 (Member # 12215) on :
in that video there is nothing abt sexual harrasement from an egyptian point of view lol
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: LOL Imagine if we did that experiment in Cairo!
Hijab and Niqab does NOT stop sexual harassment, or unwanted attention.
It intensifies it!
Do you wear hijab/niqab? If not then your claim is meritless and if you do please expound on how it actually 'intensifies' harassment? We are talking about Egypt, right?
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
It doesn't deter people here Dunes, all women are viciously harassed to some extent, no matter who they're with, I see it all the time.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
ROFL...That was hilarious, especially the part where she thanked the guy.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: It doesn't deter people here Dunes, all women are viciously harassed to some extent, no matter who they're with, I see it all the time.
Exiled you are not a woman, nor are you a woman walking in Cairo, therefore you have no idea what it is like.
Women in the middle east in Hijab and Niqab get just as much torment, harassment, unnuendo.
What I meant by intensifies it is this.
Women can walk down Manhattan with barely a second look half naked. Men will not bat an eyelid at them.
Now take Egypt for example.
Men and women here are obsessed by sex.
I am a member of a group who has one niqab'd woman who is afraid to come with us for coffee in Cilatro because in her words! ' I won't be able to stop myself from looking at the men, even the waiters, I am not supposed to to that, but I wont be able to help myself therefore that is bad for me'
I said that I can drink in Cilantro and not even notice one man there. She said well that is you.
I said ' are you serious?' because this is hard to believe......
she said' yes because I will be tempted and not be able to stop myself'. Now this is a woman, moslem, married to a bearded what I would term very strict husband, never leaves the house unless except to do shopping with him and is incredibly lonely, sad, depressed, and we wanted to give her an opportunity to et some air with the girls.
So you see.
We are a group of uncovered women going to Cilatro for coffee and have not the slightest notion of looking at, checking out and to be truthful want to avoid any male contact!
Here is a young moslem woman in full niqab and gloves who cannot stop looking at men when she is out and has to distract herself, by whatever means.
So it seems to me that being covered, being obsessed by men, by sex, by the human body, she fears her own self.
Men are like naughty children.
They always want to discover what is hidden away, what is forbidden, they will always touch what is in the box with the 'do not touch sign on it' or if they cannot they will go crazy just like they do here.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
maybe you would prefer to read words from a moslem Egyptian woman on the subject?
7ayat I notice you like to quote her on many things.
'This conversation has taken a weird turn. Sexual harrasment is an awufl and horrible reality in Egypt. Blaming it on clothes is just ignorant because in the 60s and 70s women in Egypt wore shorts and miniskirts and there was no harrasment. Whereas now the majority are veild and the harrasment has reached unbelievable levels. What I'm trying to say is that harrasment is not a direct result of clothes, the issue is much more complicated than that!'
NOTE
shorts, mini skirts no problems. Veiled intense harassment.
Therein lies the clue.
taken from the thread
Niqab'd women by Tarek a few posts down this week.
sh
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
^^^Honestly now, what more can I say? Except thank you for your honesty & perceptivenss.
quote:she said' yes because I will be tempted and not be able to stop myself'.
Here is a woman that most likely has been forced into a loveless, sexless marriage because of the patriarchal BULLSHIT that rules here and dictates that they can indulge in any petty desire & be a slave to their passions, always at the cost of another human beings repression.
Sweet Jesus, she's worried about being in a place where she can check guys out, because she's being perpetually carpet-bombed with guilt by her "man" while he keeps her in line by projecting his inadequacy onto her.
There's scores of similar examples which is a testimony to the soaring divorce rate.
Segregation is a very bad idea to begin with, it produces too many aberrant behaviors when you not only go against human nature, but have the gall to assume you can defy it.
It's natural to want to associate with one's peers, to enjoy the emotional growth that comes from being around other human beings, but that's not what goes on in this reigon.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
no problem Vanilla, just had to tell it like it is and in the beginning we felt sorry for this girl. We went to her house, she could not come to ours. We didn't have to but we did. It was a joint decision and we all agreed to make her feel like she existed. She is not from this country, her husband is. Soon they will move to either Nigerian or Saudi with his work. She was lonely, desperate for hman contact because she said that the only real contat she had was WITH him and with his family, therefore it was hard to discuss marital problems. Wont go into it all here.
She has no music, watches Huda TV and thats about it. Only married a year and looked like a lonely, sad little girl who needed some comfort but after spending a few hours with her the consensus was we cannot do this anymore.
It was too in your face radical. Too brainwashed and actually we did comment that this was the type of person who would be ideal suicide bomber. I know that sounds bad but she really had o life and what was there to lose really. The starnge thing was she seemed happy in her sadness????? Like a nun carrying a cross on her back with nails sticking into her flesh. Almost painfully sweet.
A very disturbing situation indeed.
We backed off then recently asked her to join us in an arabic class.
ONLY if it was a male teacher and once the husband had checked him and the class out.
Result.......... Nope, she is not allowed. Class was TOO SMALL, I mean in area not students. She would be too close to a man, the husband said. ONLY female as she is not allowed any male contact unless absolutely necessary.......
She cannot come to visit me unless my husband leaves the home!!! not even in a different room, and even then he was not happy.
So there you have it.
Mrs Niqaby woman of 6th October city on her way to Saudi to sit in another apartment!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled:
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: LOL Imagine if we did that experiment in Cairo!
Hijab and Niqab does NOT stop sexual harassment, or unwanted attention.
It intensifies it!
Do you wear hijab/niqab? If not then your claim is meritless and if you do please expound on how it actually 'intensifies' harassment? We are talking about Egypt, right?
I don't think hijab or niqab intensifies harassment on a personal basis. But I think, and that has also been observed by many other women who have been to several Muslim countries, that the covering of women often goes along with a particular social perception ... namely, that men are not able to restrain themselves and that it is women's responsibility to keep up morals by making themselves as invisible and unattractive as possible.
What happens then is for example what we can observe in Egypt: Men feel they have the right to harass women, much more so the less those women are covered. As a result, many women cover up more in order to avoid harassment, but it's like a vicious circle, it only gets worse.
And then you have very popular religious preachers like Amr Khaled telling women they collect sins every time they go uncovered and a man looks at them. Now isn't that absolving the men of all responsibility and assigning it to the women? Don't you think those are exactly the wrong words in a country where almost every single woman experiences harassment, and where things like the eid attacks happen? What kind of message is this giving out? Women are made to feel guilty if they get harassed, they are told it is their fault if a man misbehaves. But does that change anything? Is there no harassment in countries where the majority of women wear hijab or niqab? It seems that often it's the opposite, there's a lot of harassment in Egypt, I've often heard that harassment in Saudi is quite awful as well. So doesn't that tell us the opposite of what many want to make us believe ... that covering women up and making them as invisible as possible in the public sphere can never be a solution to complex social problems or unhealthy male -- female relationships.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
I've heard several similar, a woman who was afraid of losing control, and voluntairily became strict religious, covered from head to toe, in a loveless marriage,others hysterical about sex, etc. To afraid to get on emotional terms with a man anyway or to afraid to lose control because men were tempting... Something must have happened to them, otherwise they wouldn't have such a twisted mind in sexuality...
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
"Something must have happened to them"
What happened to them is systematic emotional terrorism, segregation and guilt-tripping by their families, that's why they're wound up so tight.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
Well, I know that I have been shocked in all of these cases; Egyptian women, adult,intellegent and educated, and completely messed up by men. The saddest is that the men were talking rather contemptuous about it, they prefered to sweep it under the carpet as not important.Also there was no support from families at all, the women were the ones who were blamed as if it was their fault. The dishonesty in this, the mental pressure that was excersised on them, the psychological inability to accept this, and the non-stop mental pressure to accept, it looks sick to me. I know there must have been a lot of cases of abusement in this, even that far that the women needed to get treatment in mental-clinics, and it all was taken off with a : Well, she is allright now; she is engaged, there is nothing to complain about, she doesn't have an eye for the needs of her husband, even 'she is selfish'...etc. While at the same time these women all were in serious need for care. The families didn't see it as a reason to go on with where they were busy with: get her in a arranged marriage, trying to take away her resistance, or forcing her to accept what she couldn't, sometimes even using violence! I have to admit that I've seen enough to become very suspicious to men in a certain class of society.They all look very gentle and friendly, but behind the curtains a lot of them are sick freaks...
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
The sexual harassment of women in Egypt will not stop regardless of how much females get covered up to be able to walk safely outside on the streets.
It's all up in the head of the men ..... that's where things have to start to improve.
Posted by mortimer (Member # 12475) on :
I find a slap around the chops usually works Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
just in case it matters - I can back up what Harankush is saying 110%. We have tried and tried to help this woman to see the light, but to no avail.
anyways...got various thoughts I would like to put forth. When the 2 sexes are separated in an extreme way, they will have a natural curiousity about the other one, and will have no real experience in dealing with them, and will have a lot of wrong thoughts - mostly cuz they have not had the opportunity to know anyone from the opposite sex as a real person - just as either the object of desire viewpoint, or a mysterious thing that not understood. Its just like a prejudice that a person might have toward a whole race of people. Like some people in the world might have a prejudice against say...Arabs or Black people or Gays, as an example. When you are growing up with one as a friend, or if make friends with someone, you see right thru any prejudices, and get to know them as real people, that have the same thoughts, desires, hopes, bleed red blood, etc. When you are cut off from this - thats when prejudices form. Does this make any sense?? I, personally, don't agree or give any credence to the separation of sexes stuff. It creates too much division, and false information. We need to come together with understanding, rather than divide up even more than we already are. And I am not naive enough to think that everyone feels that same as I do, but it works for me, and wished it would work for everyone.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
cheers Jean for that.
You know I have no problem at all with Hijab or wearing a spangly top hat on your head. I think anyone should be free to wear what they choose to within reason. My anger comes from people here who say time after time that Hijab protect women from harassment when clearly the opposite is true. I have no idea why they say that????
It is mental!
If all the women in Egypt removed their hijabs and niqabs and 'smacked around the chops' every man who started any nonsense, it would be over in a week! ( thank you Mortimer for your turn of phrase)
BUT they all act like innocent victims when they should be standing up to them and for their right of equality and to be able to walk the streets in peace. Then once the men are sorted out wear what the hell you like! BUT!!! not as some crappy excuse.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: It doesn't deter people here Dunes, all women are viciously harassed to some extent, no matter who they're with, I see it all the time.
Sexual harassment is problematic and widespread in Egypt, my contention however is with the ridiculous claim that hijab/niqab intensifies sexual harassment.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by jean_bean: just in case it matters - I can back up what Harankush is saying 110%. We have tried and tried to help this woman to see the light, but to no avail.
anyways...got various thoughts I would like to put forth. When the 2 sexes are separated in an extreme way, they will have a natural curiousity about the other one, and will have no real experience in dealing with them, and will have a lot of wrong thoughts - mostly cuz they have not had the opportunity to know anyone from the opposite sex as a real person - just as either the object of desire viewpoint, or a mysterious thing that not understood. Its just like a prejudice that a person might have toward a whole race of people. Like some people in the world might have a prejudice against say...Arabs or Black people or Gays, as an example. When you are growing up with one as a friend, or if make friends with someone, you see right thru any prejudices, and get to know them as real people, that have the same thoughts, desires, hopes, bleed red blood, etc. When you are cut off from this - thats when prejudices form. Does this make any sense?? I, personally, don't agree or give any credence to the separation of sexes stuff. It creates too much division, and false information. We need to come together with understanding, rather than divide up even more than we already are. And I am not naive enough to think that everyone feels that same as I do, but it works for me, and wished it would work for everyone.
*applause*
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: It doesn't deter people here Dunes, all women are viciously harassed to some extent, no matter who they're with, I see it all the time.
Exiled you are not a woman, nor are you a woman walking in Cairo, therefore you have no idea what it is like.
Women in the middle east in Hijab and Niqab get just as much torment, harassment, unnuendo.
What I meant by intensifies it is this.
Women can walk down Manhattan with barely a second look half naked. Men will not bat an eyelid at them.
Now take Egypt for example.
Men and women here are obsessed by sex.
I am a member of a group who has one niqab'd woman who is afraid to come with us for coffee in Cilatro because in her words! ' I won't be able to stop myself from looking at the men, even the waiters, I am not supposed to to that, but I wont be able to help myself therefore that is bad for me'
I said that I can drink in Cilantro and not even notice one man there. She said well that is you.
I said ' are you serious?' because this is hard to believe......
she said' yes because I will be tempted and not be able to stop myself'. Now this is a woman, moslem, married to a bearded what I would term very strict husband, never leaves the house unless except to do shopping with him and is incredibly lonely, sad, depressed, and we wanted to give her an opportunity to et some air with the girls.
So you see.
We are a group of uncovered women going to Cilatro for coffee and have not the slightest notion of looking at, checking out and to be truthful want to avoid any male contact!
Here is a young moslem woman in full niqab and gloves who cannot stop looking at men when she is out and has to distract herself, by whatever means.
So it seems to me that being covered, being obsessed by men, by sex, by the human body, she fears her own self.
Men are like naughty children.
They always want to discover what is hidden away, what is forbidden, they will always touch what is in the box with the 'do not touch sign on it' or if they cannot they will go crazy just like they do here.
I think we all have our foot in the mouth moments so don’t take it personal. A resting Egyptian donkey on one of the side streets of Bulaq probably knows more than some expats living in Egypt. Expats who are prone to expressing their silly notions, despite the fact that such notions contradict the reality of the situation. More logic and less nonsense would go a long way to clearing some of the misconceptions stated on ES.
I am certainly not a woman but I have assimilated enough within Cairo to know which woman are harassed the most. It is unfortunate but many of my male friends partake in this practice. And the less the clothing the more likely the woman is to be sexually harassed. I have observed this in malls and round the clock in one of the malls in which my showroom was located. Some women least likely to be harrassed and those are the one wearing jilbab with niqab. The mohjabat are less likely to be harassed than women without the hijab, unless their derriere and rack is exceptional. Women who wear extra tight clothing and flaunt their camel toe are also likely to be harassed than women with loose clothing with hijab/niqab. The women who wear niqab that are harassed most are the ones who wear khaleeji(gulf) abayat and especially those who have a strong perfume scent.
To claim that hijab/niqab intensifies sexual harassment is ridiculously and I wonder what possessed to lay such fallacious claim.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: maybe you would prefer to read words from a moslem Egyptian woman on the subject?
7ayat I notice you like to quote her on many things.
I in fact have a tendency to quote some of ES darlings and cuties, ask blue eyes she is full of me. And speaking of darlings I see Dalia has replied to me, let me see what she has to say.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
It's gotten much worse since you've lived here.
No woman is immune, even if she looks like Bride of Chucky.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled:
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: LOL Imagine if we did that experiment in Cairo!
Hijab and Niqab does NOT stop sexual harassment, or unwanted attention.
It intensifies it!
Do you wear hijab/niqab? If not then your claim is meritless and if you do please expound on how it actually 'intensifies' harassment? We are talking about Egypt, right?
I don't think hijab or niqab intensifies harassment on a personal basis. But I think, and that has also been observed by many other women who have been to several Muslim countries, that the covering of women often goes along with a particular social perception ... namely, that men are not able to restrain themselves and that it is women's responsibility to keep up morals by making themselves as invisible and unattractive as possible.
What happens then is for example what we can observe in Egypt: Men feel they have the right to harass women, much more so the less those women are covered. As a result, many women cover up more in order to avoid harassment, but it's like a vicious circle, it only gets worse.
And then you have very popular religious preachers like Amr Khaled telling women they collect sins every time they go uncovered and a man looks at them. Now isn't that absolving the men of all responsibility and assigning it to the women? Don't you think those are exactly the wrong words in a country where almost every single woman experiences harassment, and where things like the eid attacks happen? What kind of message is this giving out? Women are made to feel guilty if they get harassed, they are told it is their fault if a man misbehaves. But does that change anything? Is there no harassment in countries where the majority of women wear hijab or niqab? It seems that often it's the opposite, there's a lot of harassment in Egypt, I've often heard that harassment in Saudi is quite awful as well. So doesn't that tell us the opposite of what many want to make us believe ... that covering women up and making them as invisible as possible in the public sphere can never be a solution to complex social problems or unhealthy male -- female relationships.
I think for every Amr Khalid we need a female counterpart. Women who are knowledgeable in Fiqh and provided ample airtime on satellite TV to address the grievances that women have.
The harassment is problematic but shall people sit silent when someone makes a fallacious claim, one that is counterproductive. I agree with you that men are behaving and acting in very disrespectful ways. Again I think the solution is by way of intelligent Arab female scholars that can address these matters. I emphasized Arab because we are talking about Egypt and the Middle East. And being part of the culture and understanding the culture goes a long way to gaining acceptance by the people.
Insha Allah this will one day be fruitful and Insha Allah there will be a solution because preachers like Khalid, Swaidan, Al-Jifri and other contemporary preachers are a sick joke on the ummah.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
so Exiled what you are saying is that ALL women are harassed, it is just to what extent. Even the niqab'd one in Khaleegi.
My point is
You can wear a bikini in Manhattan and not get harassed.
So
Cairo is 90% covered = unbelievable female harassment the extent depending on perfume, camel toe, khaleegi,colour, sequins or whatever.
Manhattan 99.9% uncovered = no harassment.
So in your words what do you conclude from that?
Why are the women in Cairo harassed and not the Manhattan ones? What makes it happen here and not there? What exactly is the root of the problem and what is the answer do you think?
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Now I am wondering which AMERICAN women scholars were needed to stop the men in America from harassing women in the streets of the city. If local women scholars are the solution.
Hmmmm?
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
Dude, it's a very simple equation IMHO.
People need to ease up on stuffing religion down everybody's throats whether they like it or not, that won't, has not, nor will ever solve anything.
Segregation of the sexes must end, we've all seen the freaks of nature it has produced thus far.
So, what do you propose these intelligent female arab scholars say to their fellow women that may ease or possibly eliminate the disgustingly vulgar verbal and physical abuse they endure?
FYI: Amr Khalid is a whiny prick & a self-appointed expert.
He uses guilt tripping tactics to get more & more women to gift wrap their heads in a shiny gold sequinned "Islamic Hijab", nothing more. I'm not even a woman, and I'm fed up of everybody trying to control them by shoving a Lo-jack up their butts.
That's probably what's next, the new Islamic Lo-Jack! Keep tabs on her 24/7 with this nifty suppository (may cause anal leakage).
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Let me tell you something and Vanilla can verify.
I never go out in the streets here uncovered.
Usually I wear baseball cap and sunglasses. My hair is always tied back and tucked away in a clip. I never have arms uncovered and always wear long trousers with every top reaching well below my 'camel toe'! My clothes are not revealing in any way neither transparent. The only skin you can see is in summer from mid forearm to fingertips and face.
I walk with head down and never in any way try to attract any type of attention from either men or women.
So tell me what is so special, attractive, captivating, sexually alluring to just about every male here when I walk down the street?
Why do men masturbate at the side of the car as my husband goes to the shop and I am sitting in it ? ( Oh yes!!) in full daylight in public street! Why do I get 'fucky fucky' as I pass, whistles, touching, groping? Men with their children passing me and asking me would I like to go out with them as I am walking slower behind my husband looking at something in a shop window. Why am I running after a man spraying him with Pepsi in the middle of the street when he has just pulled out his willie to me?
Why here?
What the hell is going on?
Tell me that.
Why has this NEVER!!!! happened to me in any other country?
As usual you think it is the womens place to educate! the TV should have women scholars! Bullshit!
I am switching this off as I cannot listen any more of this crap!
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
I have been raised up by segregration of sexes, but there was no harassment comparable to what we expierencing right now in Egypt. I don't think it has to do with religion only. I notice that most of the women who are harassed, are the unprotected ones, the ones with no father or brothers. At the same time women are not raised by standing up for theirselves, by selfesteem, by learning how to defend theirselves, by being assertive. Often they are a ignorant,weak-willed victim by men. They have no possibility to speak about what happened, because male part of society waves it away, as I explained earlier. At the same time men haven't been raised up by being aware of the wrong in this. By making them aware of what they are doing. It happens a lot. It happens that much that Exiled, for example, is telling us his friends are doing the same. They all do it, while they know they shouldn't. And when it has negative consequences they close their eyes and look in another direction. Most man shouldn't even think about rejecting the behaviour of his friend, causin, brother etc. because he will be the traitor. I've asked men to think about what would happen when it should be their sister, or their mother... Ridiculous example, because most of the time it wouldn't happen to their sister, mother, they are protecting them, because they know how these men are like... The badness is widespread, and a lot of men are seeing it as wrong but inevitable while they are doing the same...
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
Wow, no one paid attention to the bitch. Even the honking was fake added Lol Talk about failure!
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
<People need to ease up on stuffing religion down everybody's throats whether they like it or not, that won't, has not, nor will ever solve anything.
Segregation of the sexes must end, we've all seen the freaks of nature it has produced thus far.>
VB,round of applause for you. Posted by Anthropos (Member # 9410) on :
I felt the message of the video was that secretly women crave attention from men in the street. That deep down they like it. Or maybe it is to show what men think women want. I don't know.
I remember when I first came to Cairo, I felt like some superstar for 2 days because of the attention I got, not that I am glamourous at all, after that it was just a big headache and really disrespectful.
I did meet my husband in the street though Posted by humanist (Member # 12798) on :
I read this and am afraid for my daughters who are young and beautiful and not yet at puberty but approaching. Surely they will want to visit Egypt one day again soon.
Let me tell you the rage and absolute violence that will come out of this here mamma if some filthy pig of an male attempts to do anything other than smile at my daughter. I will make a scene that will be televised and talked about for years to come. I will SHAME this man and those around him and all of those watching in the streeets! I will have pepper spray ready and I'm telling you, the man or men responsible will NEVER EVER think of doing it again.
that is how much t his topic angers me.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: FYI: Amr Khalid is a whiny prick & a self-appointed expert.
He uses guilt tripping tactics to get more & more women to gift wrap their heads in a shiny gold sequinned "Islamic Hijab", nothing more.
That's how I feel and that's why I can't stand him.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: FYI: Amr Khalid is a whiny prick & a self-appointed expert.
He uses guilt tripping tactics to get more & more women to gift wrap their heads in a shiny gold sequinned "Islamic Hijab", nothing more.
That's how I feel and that's why I can't stand him.
He may be a whiny prick and I may not like him much. But I have to admit that nothing he says or does is of bad infeluence. He did pay of that with years away from Egypt. So, good for him and those who listen to him. And those so infuriated by Hijab should just shove it really
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
If the women here would bow up and decide to kick some bee-hind at even the faintest remark or illicit behavior perhaps it would stop. I don't mean to put the responsibility on the women only but obviously nothing else is being done. Usually the women just keep walking with their heads down acting like they didn't notice anything. Why would the men stop?
I should begin a business here selling pepper spray and a paint dye you can spray in the face of an attacker. It is usually green. It dyes the face green for almost a week so it is obvious who the attacker is/was - talk about curing that pervert in a big big hurry!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by ?????: I notice that most of the women who are harassed, are the unprotected ones, the ones with no father or brothers.
Huh? How would a harasser know if a woman has a father or brother if he just sees her passing by in the street?
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
I must come from a different country? Are you ladies telling me that every time you walk out there you're barraged with harassment?
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by ?????: I notice that most of the women who are harassed, are the unprotected ones, the ones with no father or brothers.
Huh? How would a harasser know if a woman has a father or brother if he just sees her passing by in the street?
Lol Dalia she means if there is no father or brother WITH her. I have noticed that, too, btw. If my husband is with me opposed to if I am alone. BIG DIFFERENCE!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: If the women here would bow up and decide to kick some bee-hind at even the faintest remark or illicit behavior perhaps it would stop. I don't mean to put the responsibility on the women only but obviously nothing else is being done. Usually the women just keep walking with their heads down acting like they didn't notice anything.
Because it has been drummed into their heads that this is how a *classy* woman reacts. Showing a reaction means that the woman is somehow humiliating herself. When I first came to Cairo and kept asking people about how to deal with the harassment, I always got a shrug of the shoulders and the answer to "just ignore it".
I somehow understand the idea behind it ... that you shouldn't give those morons any sort of attention. But it's obvious that this approach does not work in the least, so, yes, it's time women get more vocal about those things.
I've tried all sorts of things and I've even slapped guys a few times. But nothing seems to really have an impact. The only thing that kind of turns the situation around and makes the harasser angry is to use really bad language and insult them, but that is indeed very *un-classy* and can also get you into danger if you're unlucky.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Lol Dalia she means if there is no father or brother WITH her. I have noticed that, too, btw. If my husband is with me opposed to if I am alone. BIG DIFFERENCE!
Oh ok ... lol.
Btw, it also makes a difference if the man with you is Egyptian or a foreigner. If he's a foreigner, you will still get harassed by some people.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: If the women here would bow up and decide to kick some bee-hind at even the faintest remark or illicit behavior perhaps it would stop. I don't mean to put the responsibility on the women only but obviously nothing else is being done. Usually the women just keep walking with their heads down acting like they didn't notice anything.
Because it has been drummed into their heads that this is how a *classy* woman reacts. Showing a reaction means that the woman is somehow humiliating herself. When I first came to Cairo and kept asking people about how to deal with the harassment, I always got a shrug of the shoulders and the answer to "just ignore it".
I somehow understand the idea behind it ... that you shouldn't give those morons any sort of attention. But it's obvious that this approach does not work in the least, so, yes, it's time women get more vocal about those things.
I've tried all sorts of things and I've even slapped guys a few times. But nothing seems to really have an impact. The only thing that kind of turns the situation around and makes the harasser angry is to use really bad language and insult them, but that is indeed very *un-classy* and can also get you into danger if you're unlucky.
If you're harassed all the time Ms, then it must be something you're doing wrong. Sorry, yes Egyptian, yes mean it.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: So, what do you propose these intelligent female arab scholars say to their fellow women that may ease or possibly eliminate the disgustingly vulgar verbal and physical abuse they endure?
I believe the solution (for Muslims) to this predicament is within Islam and this means following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw). Dalia pointed out that current preachers such as Khalid dismiss altogether the actions of the males hence blaming the females for the disrespectful actions practiced by men. Female scholars if supported by Islamic institutions such as Al-Azhar in addition to allocating them ample airtime can effectively hammer in this issue. Muslim women need a voice to balance the male dominated arena that is ineffectual when it comes to their grievances. They must educate their fathers, sons, husbands and society in general on the sick behavior that is transpiring in Egypt. And with this education and awareness in addition continued support from Islamic institutions these female scholar/academics/preachers can make a difference. This can literally pave a way for legislation to criminalize sexual harassment. This would be a good start. The matter needs to be addressed fully, condemned and as I mentioned above criminalized. Muslim sisters need to take it upon themselves because the status quo is ineffective and might remain so until a loud enough voice is heard. The only way to go about tackling such an issue in Egypt is Islamically because enacting a mere law would not suffice, these actions need to be shamed in the eyes of the public paving the way for acceptance of laws that criminalize this behavior. Simple put Muslim women must be empowered in the religious spectrum and their voice must be respect and until then we will not see change.
So what I’m proposing is essentially the empowerment of women in Egypt. Giving them their due worth in a biased society. Initially it could be female scholars and insha allah followed by female police officers . Sexual harassment stems from lack of respect and women need to be empowered in fields that command respect or in other words male dominated arenas.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: nd those so infuriated by Hijab should just shove it really
I'm not *infuriated* about hijab at all, but about the stupid emotional blackmail he is pulling on women.
Men have been given the Friday prayer, and women have been given hijab instead. A woman going out without hijab will accumulate countless sins. If the woman was guided on the right path and protected her modesty, then society would also be on the right path. The hijab is the most important thing in a woman's life!
From where does he get this nonsense and how come people believe it?!?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: If you're harassed all the time Ms, then it must be something you're doing wrong
Sure, how could it be otherwise. Since I'm the woman it MUST somehow be my fault.
Strange only, that every single women I know must be doing the same things wrong then.
And, no, I don't get harassed that frequently anymore because I moved to a different area where harassment is much less common. But for years harassment would be pretty much a daily issue; I was never able to just walk the streets absentmindedly or even just go to the store around the corner without getting stares and comments.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: nd those so infuriated by Hijab should just shove it really
I'm not *infuriated* about hijab at all, but about the stupid emotional blackmail he is pulling on women.
Men have been given the Friday prayer, and women have been given hijab instead. A woman going out without hijab will accumulate countless sins. If the woman was guided on the right path and protected her modesty, then society would also be on the right path. The hijab is the most important thing in a woman's life!
From where does he get this nonsense and how come people believe it?!?
Ehmm, from the Koran. Don't get me wrong. I'm not really religious myself. But you can't have it both ways. If you're religious, that's what it says in the book.
As an Egyptian male, I have to admit. Neither I, nor any of my friends would approach a veiled girl who "is not looking for attention". We all know what that means.
Yes, a woman in proper Hijab is not approachable. I do believe in this.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Ehmm, from the Koran.
None of this is in the Qur'an.
The most important thing in a woman's life is the Hijab. ...
The sister who does not want to put the hijab on is not submitted to Allah. ...
Everyday you go out, and with every man that looks at your hair and your body, you gather sins, is that true or not? Of course you take sins because you didn't obey Allah's command. You'll might argue, 'It's not my fault, my intentions are good, it's the man that will take sins for looking at me.' No sister. He will take sins for looking at you, that’s true. But he looked at you, in the first place, because you were attracting attention. ...
The Prophet (PBUH) said, "A group of women will never enter paradise. They are those who wear tight, revealing clothes and do not listen to Allah's command of wearing the hijab. Not only will they not enter paradise, but they will not even smell its scent, although you can smell paradise from a 500-year distance".
Allah ordered mankind to do some works that would remind the people without words. Men were given the Friday Congregational Prayer (Jumu’a) and fighting for the sake of Allah and women were ordered to wear hijab; to put it on, walk in the streets, and through it she would remind people of Allah without speaking. ...
It is our hope to remind people of Islam everywhere. Everyone sees you in hijab and you get a reward without talking or making any effort, just for being seen by people! If a person sees you, a good deed is written for you. If a thousand people see you, a thousand good deeds will be written. Therefore, in just one day in which you run your daily errands, you can get the blessings that no man can get even if he prays in a mosque.
Therefore the subject of hijab is very important because it acts as a reminder of Islam and you are responsible for it.
Of course I'm not saying that taking off the hijab isn't a sin. Taking off the hijab is the biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin. It's the biggest sin, because you would be encouraging other women to do the same. Never ever do this please. Allah (SWT) would hate that.
Egyguy explain please a girl is "looking for attention" ...maybe we don´t all know what that means...
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: As an Egyptian male, I have to admit. Neither I, nor any of my friends would approach a veiled girl who "is not looking for attention". We all know what that means.
Yes, a woman in proper Hijab is not approachable. I do believe in this.
Interesting. So a woman who is not wearing a "proper hijab", whatever that means in your definition, will get harassed by you and your friends?
Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
weird thought that just popped into my mind. and I know that I am gonna get nailed for this, but I really wanna know what makes someone tick. here goes........ If you are an egyptian male, and can understand what is being said to various women on the streets or in the malls, and you hear this crap spewing from the mouths of these men - have you ever said anything to your friends or buddies that are doing the harassing? or to a stranger? and why not? cuz you go along with it? you are afraid to stand out and be a decent man?
whats up with that? am assuming that you know that it is not right.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
Listen, we used to pick up girls from Gamat El Diwal mostly (just because it was close to where we lived). Some of these girls were Veiled, but you could tell. You know, the walk, the way she looks around. It's quite obvious she is looking for a hook up. Listen, I don't want to be superficial here. Are women somehow, someway mistreated in Egypt. Yes, but again. I went to college and mingled with the veiled and non veiled. A woman makes her presence period. All this whining mostly for the sake of some bitches who crave attention is pointless.
Hijab done properly is a good thing. No Hijab but a good presence does the same.
It's a different culture here. And women are the subject of attention anywhere. Why do women pay no cover charge at the clubs around here. Because they're the center of the sausage fest that takes place.
Let's get real.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: A woman makes her presence period. All this whining mostly for the sake of some bitches who crave attention is pointless.
Hijab done properly is a good thing. No Hijab but a good presence does the same.
You're very obviously not a woman and have no clue what you're talking about.
And there's a huge difference whether a girl walks down Gameat ad-Dowal or a different street, I'd say. For those not familar with Cairo ... it's a main street in Mohandesseen that has been one of the centers of street prostitution for a long time. And it's particularly busy in summer when the Arabs are in town. So, as mentioned earlier, walking down there on your own will inevitably be mistaken by many guys.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: A woman makes her presence period. All this whining mostly for the sake of some bitches who crave attention is pointless.
Hijab done properly is a good thing. No Hijab but a good presence does the same.
You're very obviously not a woman and have no clue what you're talking about.
And there's a huge difference whether a girl walks down Gameat ad-Dowal or a different street, I'd say. For those not familar with Cairo ... it's a main street in Mohandesseen that has been one of the centers of street prostitution for a long time. And it's particularly busy in summer when the Arabs are in town. So, as mentioned earlier, walking down there on your own will inevitably be mistaken by many guys.
Why don't you post a pic (you can black out the face). Let's assess your everyday outwear. Better yet, a video, so that we can assess the walk?
Posted by Habeeby (Member # 14429) on :
Quote: ...Because they're the center of the sausage fest that takes place...
Sounds quite nasty... I hate sausage can i have chicken instead please Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
I don't think I need my outfit assessed by lowlifes who pick up women from the street.
I've explained many times on this board what kind of clothes I wear, it's sufficient to say there's nothing even remotely provocative about them. And I would be hard-pressed to manage that hip-swinging walk that seems to be so typical for many young Egyptian women.
Even if I wear a potato sack I will stand out because I'm simply too tall, too slim, too white-skinned and blue-eyed to blend in.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: I don't think I need my outfit assessed by lowlifes who pick up women from the street.
I've explained many times on this board what kind of clothes I wear, it's sufficient to say there's nothing even remotely provocative about them.
Even if I wear a potato sack I will stand out because I'm simply too tall, too slim, too white-skinned and blue-eyed to blend in.
Me and the family I come from are of a class you could never attain lady.
Yes, sorry, but it's you. Maybe it's your attitude that stinks badly enough to attract the horny. Or do you walk around looking all western and superior??? Sure they would love to **** you!
Yes, comes from a low life who knows which one is out for a pick up.
And thanks for validating my point. A couple of comment and you already came out with the white skin, blue eye ****. I knew it. You look for attention and validation and then come over here to complain about it.
Posted by Habeeby (Member # 14429) on :
Egyguy if what you say is true and you come from a good family then why the abusive language? It does not give a good impression of you and is totally unneccesary... I think there is much more acceptable ways to make your point... Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Of course, I am secretly enjoying the harassment, like all women who complain about it.
I've noticed that's the typical attitude. Face a harasser and tell him you think he is scum and he will start acting all insulted because you've rejected his *compliments*, and, after all, weren't you just asking for it by being out on the street with your hair uncovered? I mean, that alone already is sufficient proof that you're actually craving all that attention, no?
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Of course, I am secretly enjoying the harassment, like all women who complain about it.
I've noticed that's the typical attitude. Face a harasser and tell him you think he is scum and he will start acting all insulted because you've rejected his *compliments*, and, after all, weren't you just asking by it by being out on the street with your hair uncovered? I mean, that alone already is sufficient proof that you're actually craving all that attention, no?
Don't give yourself too much credit! You've actually validated my image of you by referring to your blue eyes and slim figure - no compliment lady, plenty of that everywhere.
So, thank you for coming out and speaking your mind. Phewww, that was easy!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habeeby: Egyguy if what you say is true and you come from a good family then why the abusive language?
The question is -- what is a *good family*?
For some it just means that daddy has enough money to buy them a new Toyota with which they can drive around and pick up girls. Since Egypt is such a class-oriented society, there are enough girls who will do that, so those guys can congratulate themselves on their coolness and their success with the female gender.
I've dented quite a few cars of guys like this. If someone pulls up beside me and asks me in, he will get a kick in the door or a knock in the mirror.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Habeeby: Egyguy if what you say is true and you come from a good family then why the abusive language?
I've dented quite a few cars of guys like this.
Wow, feisty girl. I like that. Where do you hang out exactly?
Posted by Habeeby (Member # 14429) on :
Dalia i think you have an admirer
You should no better girl thn to tell an Arab that you have blonde hair and blue eyes you know this is the appearance of easy women
See you just crave attention go poke your eyes out and dye your hair woman... Lol
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: You've actually validated my image of you by referring to your blue eyes and slim figure - no compliment lady, plenty of that everywhere.
Who said anything about compliments? The fact that you suppose someone with blue eyes and white skin might feel special or superior says way more about you than it does about me. And I highly doubt that slim is regarded as attractive by the majority of Egyptian men out on the street.
My point was that I am easily recognizable as a non-Egyptian, and as such I am being judged and approached differently by many people, particularly men.
I don't feel that different or special. I have two arms, two legs and only one head. Even my hair and my eyebrows are black, and when I first moved here I was convinced I wouldn't stand out that much at all. But people here make you feel like an alien if you look even slightly different than the norm. And that goes for everyone, certainly not just foreigners. I had a colleague who was constantly being teased because of her figure (she was very slim) by complete strangers, another one who constantly gets nasty or ridiculing comments because she has long curls and wears them open, another friend of mine is half Sudanese, he gets really nasty comments ... and so on. Not to mention my Egyptian male friends who dare to wear their hair longer than the norm.
Sometimes, when there are groups of children or teenagers staring or pointing their fingers at me ("Bussi, el agnabia! Bussi, el agnabia!") I turn around and ask them whether they've never seen a woman before. That usually does the trick ... they either start laughing or they get really shocked and run away. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Habeeby: You should no better girl thn to tell an Arab that you have blonde hair and blue eyes you know this is the appearance of easy women
Believe it or not, I've even tried dark contacts.
And just for the record: I'm not even remotely blonde!!!
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: You've actually validated my image of you by referring to your blue eyes and slim figure - no compliment lady, plenty of that everywhere.
Who said anything about compliments? The fact that you suppose someone with blue eyes and white skin might feel special or superior says way more about you than it does about me. And I highly doubt that slim is regarded as attractive by the majority of Egyptian men out on the street.
My point was that I am easily recognizable as a non-Egyptian, and as such I am being judged and approached differently by many people, particularly men.
I don't feel that different or special. I have two arms, two legs and only one head. Even my hair and my eyebrows are black, and when I first moved here I was convinced I wouldn't stand out that much at all. But people here make you feel like an alien if you look even slightly different than the norm. And that goes for everyone, certainly not just foreigners. I had a colleague who was constantly being teased because of her figure (she was very slim) by complete strangers, another one who constantly gets nasty or ridiculing comments because she has long curls and wears them open, another friend of mine is half Sudanese, he gets really nasty comments ... and so on. Not to mention my Egyptian male friends who dare to wear their hair longer than the norm.
Sometimes, when there are groups of children or teenagers staring or pointing their fingers at me ("Bussi, el agnabia! Bussi, el agnabia!") I turn around and ask them whether they've never seen a woman before. That usually does the trick ... they either start laughing or they get really shocked and run away.
OK, let me get serious for a minute and point out a couple of things for you. In case you're not aware already.
Egypt is not an immigrant based society. OK. So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around. Hence the alien feeling and standing out.
Now being perceived and approached differently - if I understand what you're hinting and I think I do - can't be blamed on the ignorance of Egyptians. You do realize the image that western media portray of western women ... no need to further clarify here.
Also, the fact that there are plenty of women visiting the popular resorts to have some fun :wink: wink: doesn't help either.
I had a friend whose life plan was to get a visa through marriage to an Italian lady. She had to be Italian because he wanted to move to Italy. Quite laughable, but he had it all figured out and the place of action was to be Sharm. He went away and we never heard of him until months later. From Rome that is.
Now, I have to point out the fact that you might have been a bit mean to those kids. They said "Agnabia", you returned and said woman. I still stand my ground. You somehow see yourself as more of a woman - a desirable one that is - than most Egyptian women. I have no problem with that. I would still ask for a pic to validate claim please.
Thank you!
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
Boobies.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Btw, it also makes a difference if the man with you is Egyptian or a foreigner. If he's a foreigner, you will still get harassed by some people.
TRUE.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around.
Not true. Areas like Mohandseen and Zamalek are literally plastered with foreigners and yet these people - especially women - have to deal with intense harassment.
Would like to hear some opinions from male Western expats living in Cairo and how do the view the situation? Do they get harassed too by Egyptians - males and females??
F.e. I experienced numerous times that males would just bump into me on the sidewalk. This is not normal, is it?!
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around.
F.e. I experienced numerous times that males would just bump into me on the sidewalk. This is not normal, is it?!
Are you sure you're not occupying the sidewalk all for yourself. You know, in Egypt sidewalks are sort of narrow!
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by jean_bean: If you are an egyptian male, and can understand what is being said to various women on the streets or in the malls, and you hear this crap spewing from the mouths of these men - have you ever said anything to your friends or buddies that are doing the harassing? or to a stranger? and why not? cuz you go along with it? you are afraid to stand out and be a decent man?
whats up with that? am assuming that you know that it is not right.
I will answer this, but I'd like to explain something about arab culture first that you might not be aware of; it is seen as a sign of great weakness to apologize here for absolutely anything, it will get you attacked more savagely.
The way people are here is that even if they're wrong, they will adopt an extremely belligerent attitude of "yea, I'm wrong, so what??" and try to project blame onto the other party to somehow absolve themselves.
Now, with regards to men harassing women here, it's usually a group of men with sub-standard personalities, weak beta males who cannabalize off of each other's depraved emotions, convincing themselves that "yea, she deserves it". It's pointless to say anything to them because;
1)it will fall on deaf ears, you'd have better luck explaining Heisenberg's Uncertainty Prinicple to a Dog.
and 2) most likely it would get you physically attacked; please note the age old correlation between sex & violence, that plays a big part here, I won't go into details coz I'd end up writing a thesis. I'll expound later.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, let me get serious for a minute and point out a couple of things for you. In case you're not aware already.
Egypt is not an immigrant based society. OK. So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around. Hence the alien feeling and standing out.
Now being perceived and approached differently - if I understand what you're hinting and I think I do - can't be blamed on the ignorance of Egyptians. You do realize the image that western media portray of western women ... no need to further clarify here.
Also, the fact that there are plenty of women visiting the popular resorts to have some fun :wink: wink: doesn't help either.
OK, I'll get serious for a minute as well.
I'm well aware of the fact that even though Cairo is a huge city, many of its inhabitants are not used to foreigners at all and that for some people it's simply an event to see one of these creatures in reality.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the image that Western media portrays of Western women", but I know that many people look at American TV series or movies, for example, and think what is being shown there is the reality. Scary ... but I guess we can hardly blame them. (Although I'd suggest they watch more DW ... it comes in Arabic, too. )
In addition, there is the constant brainwashing being done by some religious figures or institutions. It seems that bashing the West, and particularly the "position of Western women", has become a very popular way for many religious groups or individuals to make their points and define the supposed Muslim identity. Needless to say that most of their claims are far removed from reality and utterly ridiculous, but how are people to know if they have no way of checking it? If they are being told by their imam or in some religious pamphlets that every man in the West has a mistress and that women will go to bed with anyone who approaches them, that our countries are full of *bastards* and so on and so forth ... why should they not believe this?
So far, so bad. But I'm well aware of the fact that I, as an individual, can do little to change their perception. I can chose to live with it or leave the country, and since I love living here and the harassment is the only serious drawback, I chose to live with it. But that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes need to vent my frustrations.
I also moved to a different area which made a huge difference. I lived in a very crowded area, very close to Imbaba before, and it just seemed to me that people were in general much more aggressive there.
I do, however, try to counteract or not further feed this particular stereotype by my appearance or behaviour. But I doubt that it makes a big difference. I remember getting extremely upset one day during the Eid when I was walking along the corniche in Alex with a friend and we were being followed, harassed, groped etc. for hours while Egyptian girls walking alongside in provocative outfits etc. didn't get harassed at all and none of the countless people being around interfered. So it seems that when you're a foreigner, it doesn't matter how you dress or behave, the simple fact that you are a foreigner makes some people judge and treat you in a particular way. The only way to avoid this is to put on a veil, then the harassment decreases significantly.
As for women who visit the resorts ... well, I cringe when I read or hear about them, but I don't think their behaviour has a huge impact on the everyday man, woman and child on the street in Cairo. And people who work in the tourist industry seem to actually be more sensitive to how they can approach whom, maybe it just comes with their experience. For example, I love walking around downtown which many people despise because of the sleezebags hanging out there approaching women and trying to drag people into their perfume or papyrus stores. But I get very little harassment there because it seems most of those guys are able to see who lives here and is not approachable. I also usually get a very decent treatment from salesguys in the Khan although they see half-naked women on an almost daily basis and surely know a lot of stories ...
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Now, I have to point out the fact that you might have been a bit mean to those kids. They said "Agnabia", you returned and said woman. I still stand my ground. You somehow see yourself as more of a woman - a desirable one that is - than most Egyptian women. I have no problem with that. I would still ask for a pic to validate claim please.
Wow, you certainly have a way of picking on words and interpreting or misinterpreting them.
I've responded in different ways to those remarks. I have indeed said "inta mashuftesh agnabia (or khawageya) abl kidda". But the reason I sometimes chose to say "sitt" is because I am just that -- a human being, not so different from themselves. As you might have noticed from the form of the verb in what I wrote above, it is also girls giving me those stares and comments and pointed fingers.
How you conclude that by defining myself as a *woman*, I am implying I might be more desirable than Egyptian women is completely beyond me and again, probably says more about your personal view of women than about my view of myself. I find most Egyptian women quite beautiful, in fact I think most of them are way more attractive than myself, so I don't really understand what your point is here ...
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
I have to admit that taking a walk down the streets of Cairo for a beautiful woman let alone an alien is quite a challenge.
However one does miss taking those walks. So much life out there!
I wish you ladies good luck. And I wouldn't need to tell you that if things get rough you just need to call out for help. Plenty of good guys out there to step up.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Hi EgyGuy. I am foreign and I wear hijab out of choice and it is something personal to me. However, whenever I go to Cairo I get some of the behavior some are talking about here. I am always with my husband but if I wander behind or ahead of him at any point and people think I'm alone, believe me, I get the harrassment, the stares, the comments, etc. I don't wear tight or revealing clothes, I don't swag my hips when I walk, and I don't look around for men to come hook up with me.
I'm not sure what the soceity here sees from Western media/movies but I can tell you this, I was never harrassed in the states in my entire life as much as I have been in 10 or so times I have been in Cairo. That is quite telling. Not that it is any man's fault here, it is what it is. I just wish more Egyptian men knew what many women put up with, actually it's a shame for the country and the good people here. That's too bad.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
Well, maybe it should make a difference when I tell you the following story, Egyguy: Young man, born and raised in Europe, but half Egyptian. He thought he knew Egypt well enough to decide to study there temporary. He knew Egypt by numerous visits, his whole family lived there. He returned to Europe after only a few months, because he couldn't accept what he saw that was happening there. He saw so many twisted types, his own family seemed to contain this twisted males also. "I haven't seen one normal relationship, he said, and the way men are dealing with women is dreadfull. I tried to deal with it, but I couldn't. The worse was, I became aware of the fact that I was going along in it. It is like you're sucked into a stream, and you cannot go out. I did not want to become like they were, and I left. Not end of story, because back in Europe, I mentioned it has changed me. Only that few months have changed me. I'm not myself anymore..." Rather recognisable. As the women here are saying they have no other possibility as to accept that they are being harassed once in a while, but they know that it can be different. They are born and raised in another community. Egyptian women are not. They don't know another society as where they live in, and that it is safer to stay at home, or let a male relative go with you. But if I say that the behaviour regarding women even makes European/Egyptian MALES sick....how bad must it be??? You can wave it away as all the others are doing, and blame it to the women, I can say you it is not like that. Even European women who are old and unattractive get the same treatment. It doesn't matter how they look, what they wear and how they behave, only the fact she is foreign is enough. "She asked for it"...I've heard this false excuse more then enough to know that they are knowing very well, that they are wrong, they simply never will admit it...
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I just wish more Egyptian men knew what many women put up with, actually it's a shame for the country and the good people here. That's too bad.
This is a paragraph from an article about sexual harassment in last year's September issue of the Cairo Times that imo is interesting in this context:
It is worthwhile to mention in the context of this issue that the vast majority of world-renowned travel guides such as the Lonely Planet dedicate entire sections within their Egyptian book editions to warn female tourists of the sexual harassment they will encounter if they decide to visit the country. This is a big slap in the face of tourism in Egypt. Many unsuspecting female visitors will return to their homelands offended and humiliated by the heinous staring and comments they encountered whilst attempting to enjoy the country's attractions. If Egypt's long-term plan to boost the tourism sector -- our main income provider -- is to reap any measure of success in the future, the plague of sexual harassment cannot be neglected. Powerful educational, legal and journalistic measures need to be undertaken to combat the phenomenon.
Also:
The article also mentioned that "out of 2800 women surveyed, only 10 claimed never to have been harassed, expressing ambivalence about the term "harassment", mistakenly understanding it to be synoymous with rape". Their lack of awareness of their legal rights, teamed with the country's patriarchal culture, and the overtly habitual incidences of cat calling and eve teasing on the street, have made many of them oblivious to the fact that there is a harassment problem in the first place. As Ms. Ghozy explained, "one of the biggest challenges we faced whilst conducting the surveys and focus groups was breaking women's silence. Many of them were afraid to admit that they had been sexually harassed because they thought that it brings some sort of liability on them, that it somehow taints their honour. They have been raised in a culture that places the blame on women for anything that happens to them."
This comes as little surprise given a society that not only tolerates the behaviour of sexual harassment, but has even come to expect it, as though it were an inevitable norm. The absurdity of our double standards speaks volumes about our culture; we denigrate sexual freedom yet hold an accepting attitude towards sexual harassment.
The ECWR's survey findings show that amongst 2790 women who admitted that they were victims of sexual harassment, exposure to foul language, misogynistic insults, inappropriate touching from harassers, attempts to obstruct their paths as they walk, or all of the above, were part of their daily experience of living in Egypt. Women anticipate these violations of their physical space every time they leave their houses. Why has the problem become so prevalent in our country?
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
<The way people are here is that even if they're wrong, they will adopt an extremely belligerent attitude of "yea, I'm wrong, so what??" and try to project blame onto the other party to somehow absolve themselves.>
Absolutely!!
<1)it will fall on deaf ears, you'd have better luck explaining Heisenberg's Uncertainty Prinicple to a Dog.> ROFL Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote: Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males.
Don't worry, there isn't much chance of forgetting this one anytime soon. Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Thank you, Captain Obviously Redundant.
Stating the obvious then sweeping it all under the rug is pointless, your argument is moot i.e. of ZERO practical value, you've introduced nothing but conjecture & heresy to the discussion, and you refused to concede that Dalia had alot of valid points, your only counter-argument was to put the onus on women to "realize that this a hormone raged society", as if they were in a fucking coma and didn't notice guys grabbing them & verbally harassing them.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Thank you, Captain Obviously Redundant.
Stating the obvious then sweeping it all under the rug is pointless, your argument is moot i.e. of ZERO practical value, you've introduced nothing but conjecture & heresy to the discussion, and you refused to concede that Dalia had alot of valid points, your only counter-argument was to put the onus on women to "realize that this a hormone raged society", as if they were in a fucking coma and didn't notice guys grabbing them & verbally harassing them.
Don't be childishly jealous for some attention. I only show up once every few months.
And you don't have to bend over backwards all the time for westerners. I live among them and they're no angels anyway!
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy:
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, listen up ladies. You've got to deal with it. You moved there or visiting regularly. It comes with the package.
I know most of you probably don't watch Egyptian movies. Recent ones that is. Probably 90% of them revolve around sexual frustration as the main theme. It's quite ridiculous really. But the simple fact is you're living in a society with about 50% illiteracy. About 50% if not higher unemployment. A culture of inhibition by nature and a lot of issues to come to grips with.
It's a fluid situation really. A case of a cultural shock for many with the invasion of world media into traditional homes.
Also, go easy on what should be defined as harassment in Egypt. Verbal, well .... don't know what to say. But if it gets worse I think you know how to get help quickly.
Again, just realize you're walking the streets among extremely frustrated males. It's a hormone raged society really with so much youth and nothing much to do.
Thank you, Captain Obviously Redundant.
Stating the obvious then sweeping it all under the rug is pointless, your argument is moot i.e. of ZERO practical value, you've introduced nothing but conjecture & heresy to the discussion, and you refused to concede that Dalia had alot of valid points, your only counter-argument was to put the onus on women to "realize that this a hormone raged society", as if they were in a fucking coma and didn't notice guys grabbing them & verbally harassing them.
Don't be childishly jealous for some attention. I only show up once every few months.
And you don't have to bend over backwards all the time for westerners. I live among them and they're no angels anyway!
What is that supposed to mean!?? Who ever said we were angels and why the need to bend over backwards? We don't ask for that, simply to stop being harrassed would be enough for most of us...my daughter is half Egyptian and half American. I guess she will only be half an angel, the other half just has to deal with things. Ok. Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
Are your parents first cousins?
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: Are your parents first cousins?
Dude, for some reason I completely despise you. I think you're a creep and a complete moron. Now, do me a favor and don't quote me anymore. Thank you!
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy:
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: Are your parents first cousins?
Dude, for some reason I completely despise you. I think you're a creep and a complete moron. Now, do me a favor and don't quote me anymore. Thank you!
So, your parents are cousins. Glad we cleared that up.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: What is that supposed to mean!?? Who ever said we were angels and why the need to bend over backwards? We don't ask for that, simply to stop being harrassed would be enough for most of us...my daughter is half Egyptian and half American. I guess she will only be half an angel, the other half just has to deal with things. Ok.
I simply meant that issues with harassement & abuse are everywhere.
My current GF was telling me last week about her restraining order against her ex. He turned out to be a Satan worshiper. An abusive fock really.
Now, here is how I think about it because I've seen my share of crap around here. I can find a bit of an excuse for people in my country. As I explained, we're dealing with poverty mainly there.
But I've seen so much disgusting behavioral patterns here. Where people are doing well financially and supposedly educated. I've seen and heard of mail in prides. Eastern European prostitution and related abuse to these women. May I ask why the word "Bitch" is everywhere in the media. Have you heard the latest rap.
If you ask me. Women are abused everywhere. You just have to stand up for yourself.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
I agree with you EgyGuy, it's high time the women here started to carry defense weapons and stabbed these morons in the neck with a good sharp pencil each time he dare touch her. Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
< mail in prides>
What???? Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: < mail in prides>
What????
Just poolshit... Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I agree with you EgyGuy, it's high time the women here started to carry defense weapons and stabbed these morons in the neck with a good sharp pencil each time he dare touch her.
I was wondering what would happen if you just took a picture of each guy harassing you. I've been told it might be dangerous, but I thought it would be interesting because you would kind of turn the situation around ...
Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
Got a story to tell ya. Friend of mine wears hijab - the proper loose kind, not the scarf on head, but jeans really tight kind (if that makes any sense at all). anyways, she lived in Cairo for a few years, worked here, and took the metro prior to there being a woman's car. She took it everyday at the same time. She used to get harrassed, groped etc. So she decided to do something. She carried an extra scarf pin, and if someone "accidently" bumped into her boob area, or grabbed at her - they got "the pin", and when they started yelling, she just looked all innocent and made like she had no clue as to what they were talking about. She said within a week, that her reputation must have proceeded her - cuz no man came anywhere near her ever again. Figured that the word was out - to watch out for that one.
I think that its a good idea, but ya gotta be quite the actress to carry it off, and not get smacked.
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: prides.
Are you still searching for a pride ? ******** JB, your story is exaggerated don't you think ? I mean come on, reputation on a metro ? Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
That news-traveling....I still don't know how that works. People I don't know seem to know me and know what I am doing or have planned...Even in other Middle-East countries...it's weird!
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: OK, let me get serious for a minute and point out a couple of things for you. In case you're not aware already.
Egypt is not an immigrant based society. OK. So, foreigners do stand out for the simple fact that most Egyptians don't see many around. Hence the alien feeling and standing out.
Now being perceived and approached differently - if I understand what you're hinting and I think I do - can't be blamed on the ignorance of Egyptians. You do realize the image that western media portray of western women ... no need to further clarify here.
Also, the fact that there are plenty of women visiting the popular resorts to have some fun :wink: wink: doesn't help either.
OK, I'll get serious for a minute as well.
I'm well aware of the fact that even though Cairo is a huge city, many of its inhabitants are not used to foreigners at all and that for some people it's simply an event to see one of these creatures in reality.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the image that Western media portrays of Western women", but I know that many people look at American TV series or movies, for example, and think what is being shown there is the reality. Scary ... but I guess we can hardly blame them. (Although I'd suggest they watch more DW ... it comes in Arabic, too. )
In addition, there is the constant brainwashing being done by some religious figures or institutions. It seems that bashing the West, and particularly the "position of Western women", has become a very popular way for many religious groups or individuals to make their points and define the supposed Muslim identity. Needless to say that most of their claims are far removed from reality and utterly ridiculous, but how are people to know if they have no way of checking it? If they are being told by their imam or in some religious pamphlets that every man in the West has a mistress and that women will go to bed with anyone who approaches them, that our countries are full of *bastards* and so on and so forth ... why should they not believe this?
So far, so bad. But I'm well aware of the fact that I, as an individual, can do little to change their perception. I can chose to live with it or leave the country, and since I love living here and the harassment is the only serious drawback, I chose to live with it. But that doesn't mean that I don't sometimes need to vent my frustrations.
I also moved to a different area which made a huge difference. I lived in a very crowded area, very close to Imbaba before, and it just seemed to me that people were in general much more aggressive there.
I do, however, try to counteract or not further feed this particular stereotype by my appearance or behaviour. But I doubt that it makes a big difference. I remember getting extremely upset one day during the Eid when I was walking along the corniche in Alex with a friend and we were being followed, harassed, groped etc. for hours while Egyptian girls walking alongside in provocative outfits etc. didn't get harassed at all and none of the countless people being around interfered. So it seems that when you're a foreigner, it doesn't matter how you dress or behave, the simple fact that you are a foreigner makes some people judge and treat you in a particular way. The only way to avoid this is to put on a veil, then the harassment decreases significantly.
As for women who visit the resorts ... well, I cringe when I read or hear about them, but I don't think their behaviour has a huge impact on the everyday man, woman and child on the street in Cairo. And people who work in the tourist industry seem to actually be more sensitive to how they can approach whom, maybe it just comes with their experience. For example, I love walking around downtown which many people despise because of the sleezebags hanging out there approaching women and trying to drag people into their perfume or papyrus stores. But I get very little harassment there because it seems most of those guys are able to see who lives here and is not approachable. I also usually get a very decent treatment from salesguys in the Khan although they see half-naked women on an almost daily basis and surely know a lot of stories ...
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Now, I have to point out the fact that you might have been a bit mean to those kids. They said "Agnabia", you returned and said woman. I still stand my ground. You somehow see yourself as more of a woman - a desirable one that is - than most Egyptian women. I have no problem with that. I would still ask for a pic to validate claim please.
Wow, you certainly have a way of picking on words and interpreting or misinterpreting them.
I've responded in different ways to those remarks. I have indeed said "inta mashuftesh agnabia (or khawageya) abl kidda". But the reason I sometimes chose to say "sitt" is because I am just that -- a human being, not so different from themselves. As you might have noticed from the form of the verb in what I wrote above, it is also girls giving me those stares and comments and pointed fingers.
How you conclude that by defining myself as a *woman*, I am implying I might be more desirable than Egyptian women is completely beyond me and again, probably says more about your personal view of women than about my view of myself. I find most Egyptian women quite beautiful, in fact I think most of them are way more attractive than myself, so I don't really understand what your point is here ...
Nice post, one that is definitely credible with realistic observations, including your observation that harassment decreased after putting on the veil. This observation is contrary to the fallacious claim I read earlier from another member. I would like to ask you something about the incident in Alex: were the harassers on the corniche children, teenagers or adults or all? I am asking this to understand the extent of the situation, in all cases it is disgusting and deplorable but if the harassers were children then we must also blame their parents for such unislamic and disgusting behavior. I emphasize Islam because that is the code of ethics that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are supposed to adhere by. Members may like it or not but Egypt is 90% Muslims despite the behavior taking place on the streets
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled:
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: So, what do you propose these intelligent female arab scholars say to their fellow women that may ease or possibly eliminate the disgustingly vulgar verbal and physical abuse they endure?
I believe the solution (for Muslims) to this predicament is within Islam and this means following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw). Dalia pointed out that current preachers such as Khalid dismiss altogether the actions of the males hence blaming the females for the disrespectful actions practiced by men. Female scholars if supported by Islamic institutions such as Al-Azhar in addition to allocating them ample airtime can effectively hammer in this issue. Muslim women need a voice to balance the male dominated arena that is ineffectual when it comes to their grievances. They must educate their fathers, sons, husbands and society in general on the sick behavior that is transpiring in Egypt. And with this education and awareness in addition continued support from Islamic institutions these female scholar/academics/preachers can make a difference. This can literally pave a way for legislation to criminalize sexual harassment. This would be a good start. The matter needs to be addressed fully, condemned and as I mentioned above criminalized. Muslim sisters need to take it upon themselves because the status quo is ineffective and might remain so until a loud enough voice is heard. The only way to go about tackling such an issue in Egypt is Islamically because enacting a mere law would not suffice, these actions need to be shamed in the eyes of the public paving the way for acceptance of laws that criminalize this behavior. Simple put Muslim women must be empowered in the religious spectrum and their voice must be respect and until then we will not see change.
So what I’m proposing is essentially the empowerment of women in Egypt. Giving them their due worth in a biased society. Initially it could be female scholars and insha allah followed by female police officers . Sexual harassment stems from lack of respect and women need to be empowered in fields that command respect or in other words male dominated arenas.
All good in theory, but you know as well as I do that women will never be empowered here, they will never be allowed to penetrate the Patriarchal system and be scholars or police officers, it would make the men even more insecure, if that's possible.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled:
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: So, what do you propose these intelligent female arab scholars say to their fellow women that may ease or possibly eliminate the disgustingly vulgar verbal and physical abuse they endure?
I believe the solution (for Muslims) to this predicament is within Islam and this means following the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (saw). Dalia pointed out that current preachers such as Khalid dismiss altogether the actions of the males hence blaming the females for the disrespectful actions practiced by men. Female scholars if supported by Islamic institutions such as Al-Azhar in addition to allocating them ample airtime can effectively hammer in this issue. Muslim women need a voice to balance the male dominated arena that is ineffectual when it comes to their grievances. They must educate their fathers, sons, husbands and society in general on the sick behavior that is transpiring in Egypt. And with this education and awareness in addition continued support from Islamic institutions these female scholar/academics/preachers can make a difference. This can literally pave a way for legislation to criminalize sexual harassment. This would be a good start. The matter needs to be addressed fully, condemned and as I mentioned above criminalized. Muslim sisters need to take it upon themselves because the status quo is ineffective and might remain so until a loud enough voice is heard. The only way to go about tackling such an issue in Egypt is Islamically because enacting a mere law would not suffice, these actions need to be shamed in the eyes of the public paving the way for acceptance of laws that criminalize this behavior. Simple put Muslim women must be empowered in the religious spectrum and their voice must be respect and until then we will not see change.
So what I’m proposing is essentially the empowerment of women in Egypt. Giving them their due worth in a biased society. Initially it could be female scholars and insha allah followed by female police officers . Sexual harassment stems from lack of respect and women need to be empowered in fields that command respect or in other words male dominated arenas.
All good in theory, but you know as well as I do that women will never be empowered here, they will never be allowed to penetrate the Patriarchal system and be scholars or police officers, it would make the men even more insecure, if that's possible.
We need to be optimistic VB. Without optimism there is no hope. I have seen and continue to witness with my own eyes the empowerment of muslim women in Muslim nations. First it was in Malaysia where women are police officers and officials. And now it is present in Jordan where women have gained tremendous rights in recent years in part to the dedication of Queen Rania, furthermore women are now actively part of the police force and by this I mean they are no longer simply relegated to desk jobs. They are out in the streets and they also have officer status. They command respect.
My theory is possible because I did not dismiss Islam, I offered a solution that can succeed side by side with Islamic values and Islamic shari’ah. Egypt is in a dark period right now but there is hope and Egyptians are too great a peoples to remain in the dark. Insha Allah.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
Optimism is good trait no doubt my friend, but it must be tempered with a dose of realism.
Your solution would be plausible if it tackled the root of the problem, I'm talking about a full on assault at ending segregation, harassment, unemployment, corruption, these things are all interconnected, and they're all still very much ingrained in this & other arab socities. We need a clean slate, tabula rasa, that way one can build on a solid foundation safely without fear of it crumbling.
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
I don't care if a woman is naked, she should not get sexually harrassed. It is NEVER her fault if she gets harrassed. This is something she should not have to deal with. It is really disgusting when a man drives by and rubs his dick and says something sexual to a woman. I am not in Egypt, but I have had a man, show me his dick and ask my if I like to suck cock. That is a form of sexual harrassment, I would think.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Sexual harassment will not decrease in Egypt. I wish they would tell believers in mosques to leave strange women on a street alone - but I guess this subject isn't interesting enough for the imams.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
I do agree that the men have a responsibility but the women do, too...even if in a small way. Sorry but if a woman walks down the street naked what do you expect to happen!? Not saying that if she isn't covered from head to toe it is deserved but reality here, too. I am a firm believer that women teach men how to treat them, from what I see a lot of the problems in Egypt come from the soceity telling the women not to say anything or fight back, apathy is appalling here! I don't know what the solution but it is NOT the sole responsibility of the men, that's for sure.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
OK HOLD THE PHONE! I just found on YOUTUBE the way to deal with sexual harrassment. This video (13 seconds) should be distributed to any woman or girl in Egypt. If a man harrasses you in anyway, this is how to deal with it:
Smuckers the thing is no one is walking down the street literally 'naked' in Egypt - or what Egyptians would consider as naked - besides in the tourist resorts on the Red Sea and maybe some others in the Khan El Khalili in Cairo but that's about it.
And think about it not every Egyptian guy is harassing females. It's usually the younger generation so that's where the problem lies.
These men have manners missing, no respect for females in general. Usually it's been said that these guys should treat any female with the same respect as they would treat their own mother and sister but it's just not happening.
Would I be happy if my son would stand on the side of the street and tell obscenities to females - regardless if Egyptian or foreign? No I would be shocked, very disappointed and I would blame myself for him being that way. It's just not normal.
And it's frustrating to see that sexual harassment towards women in Egypt is like a mass sport. It's obviously accepted to act this way because otherwise you would hear more men speaking up if one guy acts like that.
Seriously in the past I was always glad to find an Egyptian man who treated me with respect as a foreign woman, a man who wouldn't say strange things to me or even try to flirt with me in the next couple of minutes.
Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
You think sexual harrassment is something that happens more in Egypt? That Hijab doesn't prevent any?
In my lifetime, living in the UK these are some of my experiences:
Sexual Assult
Family member raped
Stood at bus stop while a bloke stood next to me with a hard on OUTSIDE his trousers
Whistles, looks, comments especially in summer, when I wore less.
constantly men trying to 'cop off'
Men with girlfriends/wives still trying to 'cop off'
Men grabbing your back side when you walk past in a club
+ much much more
Since wearing Hijab - NOTHING
So please dont tell me hijab makes no difference. If your average Egyptian women has experienced my list, I will listen, but as long as societies/music videos/media continue to portray women as sexual objects, that is how they will be treated by men. And as long as women themselves buy into this crap by thinking that 'looking sexy' and 'acting sexy' are the way to be, that is how they will be treated by men. But in my experience hijab made a massive diffence.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Depends on where you're wearing it Mrs.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Sexual harassment will not decrease in Egypt. I wish they would tell believers in mosques to leave strange women on a street alone - but I guess this subject isn't interesting enough for the imams.
Exactly. Why don't people like Amr Khaled focus on the men instead of the women? Imagine he would be preaching things like this ... wouldn't that have a more beneficial effect on Egyptian society:
The most important thing in a man's life is lowering the gaze ...
The brother who keeps on staring at women is not submitted to Allah. ...
Everyday you go out, and with every woman you look at, you gather sins, is that true or not? Of course you take sins because you didn't obey Allah's command. You'll might argue, 'It's not my fault, my intentions are good, it's the woman that will take sins for seducing me.' No brother. She will take sins for being seductive, that’s true. But you looked at her, in the first place, because you were not following God's commands ...
I must stress that if the man was guided on the right path and lowered his gaze, then society would also be on the right path.
Of course I'm not saying that harassing women isn't a sin. Harassing women he biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin, the biggest sin. It's the biggest sin, because you would be encouraging other men to do the same. Never ever do this please. Allah (SWT) would hate that.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: as long as societies/music videos/media continue to portray women as sexual objects, that is how they will be treated by men.
I've never experienced anything like what you describe above in Europe or the States. Sexual harassment on the street is pretty much non-existent in Germany.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Some of this is ridiclous. Religion doesn't need to tell you to be a good person or not. You know right from wrong, you are either decent or you aren't. All of the Amr Khalid's telling people to wear hijab or lower their gaze isn't going to matter. There are plenty of non-religious people who treat others with respect and plenty of firm believers in Islam who would never think twice to grope someone anywhere.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Smuckers, Islam is present day-in and day-out in every Egyptian's life (okay a smaller minority consists of Christians). Therefore I believe if mosques would take a sincere interest in this matter they could move things to the better.
And as I mentioned earlier its the younger people who act in a very disrespectful way towards women.
Believe me I totally prefer an Egyptian man who lowers his gaze and even refuses to shake my hand than having another Egyptian shouting all kind of vulgarities after me (okay they don't shout but you get my point) and perhaps even getting physical.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: Optimism is good trait no doubt my friend, but it must be tempered with a dose of realism.
Your solution would be plausible if it tackled the root of the problem, I'm talking about a full on assault at ending segregation, harassment, unemployment, corruption, these things are all interconnected, and they're all still very much ingrained in this & other arab socities. We need a clean slate, tabula rasa, that way one can build on a solid foundation safely without fear of it crumbling.
I agree that all of the above mentioned need to be addressed and tackled and it will be a mountainous task. Starting somewhere such as dealing with the vile behaviour exhibited by Egyptians males should however be dealt with sooner rather than later. Because hardships such as unemployment and corruption and so forth exisits in other societies yet harrasment is nowhere near the extent it is in Egypt. Furthermore dealing with this problem will not take billions of dollars as is the case with upgrading industries and alleviating unemployment. We can all wish for the best and hopefully the momentum of increasing rights for women in the Muslim world will make its dent on Egyptian society.
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
It will probably be a VERY long time before the momentum of increasing rights for women in the muslim world make a dent on Egyptian society.
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
This problem with women being sexually harassed in Egypt is probably not going to stop for another thirty years or so because the muslim world is slow in giving women their rights. I think that we have a lot of people in that part of the world that still don't care enough about women to help with this problem quickly enough.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: I do agree that the men have a responsibility but the women do, too...even if in a small way. Sorry but if a woman walks down the street naked what do you expect to happen!? Not saying that if she isn't covered from head to toe it is deserved but reality here, too. I am a firm believer that women teach men how to treat them, from what I see a lot of the problems in Egypt come from the soceity telling the women not to say anything or fight back, apathy is appalling here! I don't know what the solution but it is NOT the sole responsibility of the men, that's for sure.
Indeed Smuckers, and anyone who denies the importance of women in this issue is obviously ignorant in this matter. Muslim women and especially Egyptian Muslim women must take a central role. The fact is that nobody and i mean nobody will strive more with all their effort, time and heart than the persons who are affected the most. And in this case it is Egyptian women. Tourists come and go and i am generalizing(so nothing personal) here but it is the homeland of Egytptians and it is their husbands, sons, cousins, fathers and brothers who are the violaters. Foreign orginizations might publish report after report but in the end it won't make much of a difference. Egyptian women need to stand up and they so need the help of certain local institutions in order to be heard.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
well until the Islamic world re educates their flock I guess we girls need to do it ourselves with.
1) pepper spray ( Smuckers I will be your first customer)
2) Take their photo
3) shout as loud as possible so that everyone knows what has happened and attract as much attention as possible to them.
4) kick their car doors in
5) jab them with pins
for me the pepper spray would be my ideal weapon of choice and to hope that if I was not with my husband that a MAN like Vanilla was walking somewhere in the vicinity, and NOT one like Exiled who would be quoting ME chapters from the Quran Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
I forgot to add to my list:
I used to live in a shared house, one night when they all came back from the pub, the landlord of the house (who also lived there) raped one of the girls who lived there.
A muslim man (not Egyptian - From Oman) went to the pub with them but didnt drink, I didnt go 'cos I was pregnant at the time. He did not get involved. All of these people were friends of mine.
The way you are all talking is as if Egyptian society is sexually dysfunctional, yet in another breath many of you will say it is one of the safest places to be?
While my examples are not all about what happens on the street, they are ALL true and have ALL happened to me in the UK over the past 20 years. I know that I'm alone in my argument, and I'm glad that Dalia has not experienced such things, but they do happen, elsewhere in the world and its more about the sexualisation of women that has been accepted all over the world than it is about religion or culture or anything else. IMO
Women have some power in changing this themselves.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: and NOT one like Exiled who would be quoting ME chapters from the Quran
Actually you are deserving of being fed crow for the ridiculous claim you previously made in this thread Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Mrs
we all know that sexual harassment happens everywhere. The main focus was on Egypt in this thread though.
I have to say that I have travelled extensively and have never, had any type of harassment. I was really racking my brains to think of one incidence, and I could not recall one.
Now if anything I wear far more in way of clothing here, I keep my head down and try to minimise any situation where I will be alone or in company of men in the street and shops. Yet I cannot walk 10 yards in downtown or many other places without getting a remark or worse.
I really feel that women and I will include all foreign women and women of other religions or none here as Exiled is talking exculsively it seems to the Moslem women here !
ANY woman here who is harassed needs to do something about it and NOT just ignore it.
My God if I had blue spray painted evryone who has done it to me we would be surrounded by 'Smurfs'
It is NOT shameful or degrading or unclassy to fight back!
Until we do they will carry on like Egyguy and his moron friends, and the rest of the baboons.
and as for someone earlier who said if it happens call the cops!!
you obviously missed Oldbags encounter with the cop who came to her aid when she fell down in
yeah like you would ever run to one of those 'bottom feeders'
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: I really feel that women and I will include all foreign women and women of other religions or none here as Exiled is talking exculsively it seems to the Moslem women here !
This is another fallacy of yours because my position is very simple: Egyptian women must take it upon themselves to make a change in Egyptian society.
Foreign women can change their own circumstance but they can not persuade nor effect instititions such as Al-Azhar. Egyptian women need to address these institions and ask for their support. If Egyptian Muslim women stand up the battle will be won. Sadly change is incumbent upon the actions of the majority in Muslim nations hence the actions of Egyptian Muslim women.
Your attempt to make a rift between me and ES women will Insha Allah fail, and i hope they see through your games.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Street Harassment Shaimaa Fayed
Egypt's Wall of Shame
“They’re animals, beasts, vermin. That’s what they are.”
A foreign colleague made this remark to me recently in an expression of outrage at the throngs of male harassers who have seized the country’s streets. Despite the hostility of the remark, she can hardly be blamed for her embittered sentiment. The amount of sexual harassment women encounter whenever they attempt to navigate the streets of Egypt is a social malaise that has come to warrant ridicule. No explanation or word of appeasement overcomes the feeling of physical and emotional violation felt by women in Egypt, the eternal recipients of unwelcome sexual remarks, profanity, gaping and touching – in public. The shamefully ubiquitous phenomenon has become a debilitating plague invading our country. Second only to the plight of street children, it is the vilest daily occurrence on our streets, far less tolerable for most women than the traffic, noise and pollution combined.
In support of efforts being taken to curb this disturbing phenomenon, CT met up with a pioneering organization that is campaigning strongly to put an end to sexual pestering on the streets - the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights (ECWR). We spoke with Ms. Engy Ghozy, the Project Coordinator for the campaign, to learn more about the initiative, surprisingly one of the verhy few projects being undertaken to make the country’s streets safer for women. The project is sponsored by the EU, the UNFPA, Nile FM, and supported by Filbalad.com. Ms. Ghozy explained to CT why and how the Campaign Against Sexual Harassment began, the findings of the study on sexual harassment conducted by the center, and the methodology devised to address the issue.
For those who are unfamiliar with ECWR, it is an NGO that was founded 11 years ago (in 1996) with the mission of improving the status of women in Egypt and the Arab region. The center provides direct legal aid to poor women and trains them to claim their rights independently. Since its inception, ECWR has expanded its programs to address several important issues faced by women in Egypt, its successful efforts gaining it the World Bank title as one of the 10 Best Development Programs in 2002. This year, ECWR launched its new nationwide campaign to fight sexual harassment.
What started it all?
In 2005, ECWR received a large number of complaints from women who were unable to deal with the sexual violations they encountered on Egypt’s streets. Aware that no study had previously been conducted in the country to analyze sexual harassment traits and that no statistics on the topic were to be found, the center launched a pilot research to find out more about the issue. ECWR surveyed 3500 randomly selected women and men from various demographic sectors to understand their perceptions and responses to street sexual harassment. The samples were selected from places as diverse as AUC, Cairo university, Luxor, Aswan, The New Valley, Qalyubeyya and Giza. In conjunction with the surveys, the center simultaneously ran focus group discussions with both men and women to understand their opinions of the issue and the factors that propel sexual harassment in the first place. The survey was compiled and analyzed over a period of 16 months and revealed a host of interesting findings.
Women - The Curse of Silence
Of the 2800 women surveyed, only 10 claimed never to have been sexually harassed, expressing ambivalence about the meaning of the term “harassment,” mistakenly understanding it to be synonymous with rape. Their lack of awareness of their legal rights, teamed with the country’s patriarchal culture, and the overtly habitual incidences of cat calling and eve teasing on the streets, have made many of them oblivious to the very fact that there is a harassment problem in the first place. As Ms. Ghozy explained, “one of the biggest challenges we faced whilst conducting the surveys and focus groups was breaking women’s silence. Many of them were afraid to admit that they had been sexually harassed because they thought that it brings some sort of liability on them, that it somehow taints their honor. They have been raised in a culture that places the blame on women for anything that happens to them.” This comes as little surprise given a society that not only tolerates the behavior of sexual harassers, but has even come to expect it, as though it were an inevitable norm. The absurdity of our double standards speaks volumes about our culture; we denigrate the choice of sexual freedom yet hold an accepting attitude towards imposed sexual harassment. The ECWR’s survey findings show that amongst the 2790 women who admitted that they were victims of sexual harassment, exposure to foul language, misogynistic insults, inappropriate touching from harassers, attempts to obstruct their paths as they walk, or all of the above, were part of their daily experience of living in Egypt. Women anticipate these violations of their physical space every time they leave their houses. Why has the problem become so prevalent in our country?
The Perspective of the Harasser
The issue of sexual harassment is complex, inextricably tied to a labyrinth of socioeconomic and political problems that are crippling Egypt. It is easy to cite a litany of reasons propelling the phenomenon: unemployment, boredom, a need to vent social frustrations, the lack of financial means for marriage, exposure to sexual depictions in the media alongside a culture of sexual repression, chauvinist upbringings, a belief in the inferiority of women, the wide availability of drugs, lack of adequate legal punishment to dissuade harassers, etc. The list is exhaustive. What is certain, however, is that hollering something anatomically graphical at a woman or brushing one’s hands against her body does not yield a sexual sensation powerful enough to incite the repeated act of harassment. What, then, is the satisfaction that male harassers gain by making lurid passes at women? The only other logical explanation is the need to assert power. According to the study conducted by the ECWR, some of the main reasons cited by men for harassment are as follows: a feeling of pride amongst one’s male friends, a feeling of satisfaction at having gotten away with something, a feeling of machismo, and the joy of gratifying an impulse urge. This need for control was proved further when the ECWR moderators asked the men in question why they continue to repeat the harassing behavior. “Boredom,” “habit” and “there is nothing to stop me,” were amongst the replies given. For many men, harassing a hapless female on the street is clearly an easy means of asserting power when they feel helpless in other domains of their lives (owing to poverty, unemployment, familial dysfunction, etc).
Of course, society offers the usual counterargument: that it is women who invite sexual harassment. Popular culture has it that only those who dress “inappropriately” are exposed to wolf whistles and inappropriate comments, and that women who are not moderately clothed (whatever this concept denotes to each person) can rightfully be blamed for “exciting” the sexual appetites of the sex-starved men on the streets. This unapologetically chauvinist argument, which gives men the thumbs up to engage in harassment freely, would not be dignified with a response in any civilized nation. Arguing that women’s attire is what propels harassment is similar to arguing that the mere presence of weapons is what propels murder. Further proof of the unwarranted claims of this argument is the fact that the men sampled in ECWR’s focus group discussions have admitted to having openly made passes at veiled women and even women who don a face veil. Therefore sexual harassment in Egypt takes place irrespective of the woman’s clothing. The issue is a behavioral one and simply exists because there are not enough measures being taken to eradicate it. As some of the focus group participants have said, “there is nothing to stop me.”
The Catch-Me-If-You-Can Debacle
The lack of initiatives to address sexual harassment on the streets has trapped women in a suffocating social and legal gridlock. Most efforts at self-defense against the sexual harasser are met with failure. Take for example, possible defense scenario number one: yelling at the harasser or flinging a bag/item at him. This approach may or may not force the man in question to leave the woman alone. Two women in the focus group discussions illustrated this idea further. The first said that she once reacted to an incident of harassment by pushing away and beating the harasser; he felt guilty/afraid and ran away. The second woman reacted in the same manner to another harasser: he responded by beating her back. This trial-and-error approach therefore does not offer guaranteed protection to women.
Then comes the second possible solution, which is to resort to a nearby police officer in the hope that he will drag the offender to the police station. According to Article 278 of The Egyptian Penal Code, “anyone who commits a public obscenity offending the modesty of a woman shall be punished either by imprisonment of up to one year or a fine of not more than LE 300.” This legal clause is not being applied in Egypt for various reasons. Firstly, resorting to the officers for help is, as any woman living here would know, often futile because they do not take the issue seriously enough to address it. If anything, some might even be inclined to join in with a wolf whistle. Our society is so accustomed to witnessing “mo3akasat” (sexual harassment) that many people, including some women, sneer and laugh at those who make an ordeal about the issue. Secondly, women cannot file a complaint against a random stranger because they do not know his name or have any means of tracking him down. Nor is it realistic to expect them to physically grab the harasser and take him to a police station since it is often beyond their physical capacity, not to mention that a police station may also be nowhere in sight, and the offender will fight back before the woman can even hope to drag him one meter.
The most extreme of all possible solutions is to avoid walking in the streets altogether. Although countless women have actually resorted to this last measure, it is a weak palliative rather than a permanent way of addressing the problem. No person, man or woman, should be stripped of the basic human right to enjoy the public arena, to move freely and safely without feeling afraid. The only solution, then, is for a strong national campaign to be implemented to fight the street sexual harassment phenomenon.
Paying Consideration to the Tourism Industry
It is worthwhile to mention in the context of this issue that the vast majority of world-renowned travel guides such as the Lonely Planet dedicate entire sections within their Egyptian book editions to warn female tourists of the sexual harassment they will encounter if they decide to visit the country. This is a big slap in the face of tourism in Egypt. Many unsuspecting female visitors are apt to return to their homelands offended and humiliated by the heinous staring and comments they encountered whilst attempting to enjoy the country’s attractions. If Egypt’s long-term plan to boost the tourism sector - our main income provider – is to reap any measure of success in the future, the plague of sexual harassment cannot be neglected. Powerful educational, social, legal and journalistic measures need to be undertaken to combat the phenomenon.
ECWR’s Campaign Against Sexual Harassment – What is Being Done?
The ECWR is working on four consecutive steps towards addressing sexual harassment. The first phase involves research and was conducted throughout 2005. The findings of the surveys and focus groups were compiled in a detailed booklet entitled “Harassment; The Social Plague,” and are being distributed in seminars, conferences and awareness days across the country. The second phase of the plan involves spreading public awareness and sensitizing society on the issue. This is a pivotal step given the fact that many Egyptian women are unaware of what constitutes harassment to begin with. They live in a culture of silence and passivity that does not encourage them to speak up about their problems. Ms. Ghozy was quick to point out that amongst the opinions expressed during the focus group discussions were comments like “harassment is normal, it happens every day” and “why are you preoccupied with sexual harassment when there are bigger issues in the country such as street children?” Part of the ECWR’s awareness campaign is to enlighten the public to the fact that attending to one social problem does not negate efforts being done to combat other social problems, and that sexual harassment is directly linked to issues like street children. Wandering juveniles are as prone to sexual teasing as are adult women, perhaps even more so because they are helpless to defend themselves.
As part of its efforts to publicize the issue of sexual harassment, the ECWR held a seminar at AUC on December 5th 2006, with law professors and specialists in women’s studies gathering together to discuss with a large audience the rising phenomenon. Then, on the 24th of March this year, another press conference was held with the aim of announcing the launch of the new campaign, releasing the findings of the center’s research, and inviting young people to volunteer in the project. The third publicity event was held on the 18th of May 2007 at Culture Wheel. It was labeled “The Sexual Harassment Awareness Day” and was attended by 1000 people. Considerable media coverage was done on the event. ECWR invited music bands to perform on the day, in order to appeal to the young crowd. Additionally, a German female volunteer with extensive background in martial arts offered to give free self-defense classes on the day to women to teach them how to fend off an aggressive male harasser. The Awareness Day encouraged yet more volunteers to join the campaign. Moreover, a website and telephone hotline are currently being developed for women to speak up about sexual harassment. The ECWR will also be approaching schools to train teachers and social workers on how to raise children’s awareness on the issue. The center is developing a 5-minute animated cartoon as a fun and interactive means of teaching them about the subject. ??The third step of ECWR’s campaign is advocacy. The center plans to address officials and the Ministry of Interior to introduce new codes within the penal law that would enact more severe punishment on harassers. ??The fourth step is the Youth Outreach Program, which aims to encourage men to volunteer in the campaign so that they can teach other men about the harmful effects of sexual harassment. As Ghozy explains, “unfortunately in Egypt, we have a culture of passivity and discouragement. People put other people down. They discourage them from volunteer work. They say ‘what’s the use? Nothing will change.’ Well, with this negative attitude, of course nothing will change!”
Why the Campaign Offers a Positive Step
ECWR’s campaign philosophy can be summarized in one word: pragmatism. The project encourages civil society to take action against sexual harassment without having to constantly wait and expect the country’s officials to address each and every issue in Egypt. As Ms Ghozy explains, “ we want to teach people that with minimal resources, we can make a difference. Millions of small-scale development projects reaped grand-scale successes in countries like India and Indonesia. Egypt is no less capable of moving forward. We need volunteers in this country. In developed nations that barely suffer half the problems we have, there is a strong volunteering culture. Here, we are mired in problems and yet we barely have volunteers. We need more enthusiasm. The campaign can only work if we elicit help.”
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I forgot to add to my list:
I used to live in a shared house, one night when they all came back from the pub, the landlord of the house (who also lived there) raped one of the girls who lived there.
A muslim man (not Egyptian - From Oman) went to the pub with them but didnt drink, I didnt go 'cos I was pregnant at the time. He did not get involved. All of these people were friends of mine.
The way you are all talking is as if Egyptian society is sexually dysfunctional, yet in another breath many of you will say it is one of the safest places to be?
While my examples are not all about what happens on the street, they are ALL true and have ALL happened to me in the UK over the past 20 years. I know that I'm alone in my argument, and I'm glad that Dalia has not experienced such things, but they do happen, elsewhere in the world and its more about the sexualisation of women that has been accepted all over the world than it is about religion or culture or anything else. IMO
Women have some power in changing this themselves.
I think the point you are missing, which others have tried to explain, is that what you are describing does NOT happen to almost every woman in every UK city on a DAILY if not hourly basis. While I don't doubt what you've described does happen much more than is reported, it does NOT compare to the type of "meat-market" verbal harassment that is being described by women on a typical Egyptian street. This is hurled upon the majority of females regardless of their dress on a continuous, basis, over and over and over.
I am not discounting or invalidating your experiences but I do think they're off topic to what is being discussed here. I see young women in the UK dress in the-world-is-your-gynecologist-shirts all of the time, and the men don't even turn to give them a second look. Imagine traveling in London or any other European city and being leered at and receiving rude comments from random male commuters while you are wearing your conservative office clothes to and from work? It just does not happen. Therefore, while your contribution might be valuable, your particular experience doesn't relate to what others are trying to get at here.
Posted by ExptinCAI (Member # 1439) on :
double post.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
I agree with ExptinCAI, and while part of the problem stems from several factors, as noted in the article Dalia gave us above, it's about power.
Isn't that the same resounding theme in all forms of abuse? Power. Physical abuse, harrassment, etc. I think it's true that the men in Egypt do feel a sort of powerlessness (poverty, unemployment, familial dysfunction, etc). What about the women? Do they not feel equally powerless? It could be said that the women fulfill their lack of power in raising the price of their hand in marriage...thus only causing more and more powerlessness of the men. It's like I said - issues of harrassment are to be shared equally by men and women. It won't change until so many underlying things (as VB said) change first. It's just not as easy as changing one or two things~
Posted by ExptinCAI (Member # 1439) on :
You might have something there, Smucks, in the powerlessness. But I see this as more of a cultural phenomenon. We're powerless to do XYZ, therefore let's not even try to beat them, let's join them. Examples of XYZ range from cruelty to animals, especially when children go out of their way to find amusement in inflicting it on harmless street dogs & cat....treating the entire world as your personal, giant trash can, to verbal harassment. The last one there's some exception, in that you get the men who say "we never do that!" But. They don't say anything either when others do it, unless it gets to a certain point or the woman makes a scene.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled:
quote:Originally posted by harankash: I really feel that women and I will include all foreign women and women of other religions or none here as Exiled is talking exculsively it seems to the Moslem women here !
This is another fallacy of yours because my position is very simple: Egyptian women must take it upon themselves to make a change in Egyptian society.
Foreign women can change their own circumstance but they can not persuade nor effect instititions such as Al-Azhar. Egyptian women need to address these institions and ask for their support. If Egyptian Muslim women stand up the battle will be won. Sadly change is incumbent upon the actions of the majority in Muslim nations hence the actions of Egyptian Muslim women.
Your attempt to make a rift between me and ES women will Insha Allah fail, and i hope they see through your games.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Okay I am missing something here.
Please in simple language explain 'my games'
Secondly have you noticed no arab women here making comments?
Thirdly it seems that the posters are all foreign women either moslem or not all saying the same thing as me. I dont see anyone in agreement to your women scholar solution, as this was meant clearly for arab moslem women of which there are none here.
So if you can put those women aside as they are not contributing I ask you for the sake of the women who ARE here.
What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not. If you are not interested in answering this as Vanilla has as a man. Then please open another thread for the Arab moslem women where your contribution might be more welcome as it is NOT the answer to OUR problem. and Dont say cover up more! or wear hijab!
I am dressed far more respectfully than half the hijabys I see parading their wares for the male population here.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Dalia*, thanks for the article and the link for the organization.
Btw, the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights is looking for volunteers to help with the campaign; I would think foreign women are welcomed too.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Where is the link for that TL ?
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
you can write to the PM himself.
I have written twice and received replies and one query was acted upon one in process.
It can be done
primemin@idsc.gov.eg
but you have to put the emphasis on a tourism and from a western foreigners point of view. They will bin it if it is from Egyptians.
He was until very recently living just up the road from us and his sister still does.
Hubby was speaking to 'someone' who knows him well and he is apparently a nice man and quite approachable. A man who goes to Friday prayers in his ship ships Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Where is the link for that TL ?
How You Can Help
To volunteer or inquire about the Campaign, below are the contact details: ECWR Address: 135 Misr Helwan Street, 2nd floor, Flat 3, Maadi, Cairo. Telephone: 5271397 or 5282176 Fax: (02) 5282175 Website: http://www.ecwronline.org Email: ecwr@link.net
It was included in the link Dalia* gave all the way in the end of the article.
Posted by Sic Luceat Lux (Member # 12020) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: I emphasize Islam because that is the code of ethics that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are supposed to adhere by. Members may like it or not but Egypt is 90% Muslims despite the behavior taking place on the streets
Dunes, if you think Islam is the solution, then you are out of touch with reality dude..
There is no proof or evidence that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) can make men or women (much less nations) more ethical.
In fact, isn't Egypt more "Islamic" today than it was a few decades ago, yet sexual harassment is far worse now than it was back then?
The truth is, religion and morality are mutually exclusive....not inclusive.
Every man has the power to change his behaviour, and until he makes a personal decision to become a better man, religion can't do a damn thing for him.
Anyway, thats besides the point and off topic.. We've had these discussions before on E.S, and it all comes back to the same things as VB and others have noted..
Sexual segregation and repression both lead to abnormal sexual and emotional development in regards to dealing with members of the opposite sex, which results in an exponential increase in the rate of sexual harassment/misconduct.
Men and women were not created to be apart from each other. We are social creatures, and we need to interact with other people for proper maturation.
When this interaction is limited or repressed, problems are sure to arise in more ways than one.
Also, the vilification of female sexuality plays a large part to be sure. Women in Islamic nations have the unfortunate luck of being seen as both the tempters of men, and bastions of virtue at the same time.
Which explains why women get most of the blame for the sexual misconduct of men...and also why "covering up" is not only recommended, but mandatory in certain nations or locales..
This whole thing really is quite complicated to be sure.
It's an interesting synthesis of religion, culture and lets not forget, economics.
I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about sexual harassment in the Gulf nations to the same extent as what I've heard about Egypt.
There is less general malcontent and poverty in the Gulf nations though, so I'm sure that has much to do with it.
~Alistair
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
There has been a time when Western women were in the situation as they are now in Egypt, also that has changed. It taked time. But as soon as there will be more high-educated women, they will raise their voice... Then they will not believe what has been told to them, then they will force society into changings. Any young girl who still believes the tale that they are responsable for harassment and nothing will happen to them if they act and dress decent enough, believes in this because they know better. When you don't come anywhere further as your own society/family, and have been indoctrinated by false statements, how should they know better??? Education and knowledge is the key...
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not.
My advice for foreign women would be:
Learn a short yet effectively stern Arabic vocabulary that would be able to deal with incidences of harassment. Such a vocabulary is not solely to confront the attacker but to also familiarize people in vicinity with what transpired to the foreign women. And by simple language I mean just that, one sentence should be something like: "Shame on you!! – shame on you!! – respect yourself!! and respect me!! – respect me!!! – I am a guest in your country!!" . Such should be said loudly and sternly enough so that people in the vicinity should hear you. Repeat this enough times to gather attention.
Then insha allah when people gather, the violated foreign women should say in a lower yet stern voice. "This man (while pointing at him) has touched me in an inappropriate way". repeat this a few times.
Foreign women should also file complaints in police stations and they should also pursue these complaints, regardless if the police take them seriously or not. All these complaints should hopefully gain the interest of the press and that would be a very good thing. Also foreign women should lobby anyone and every organization that will lend them an ear in this regard. Write your foreign ministers, home secretary, write the consuls and ambassadors and UN organizations, etc and inform them of your ordeals. In other words apply some kind of pressure on the Egyptian government through these sources.
Be proactive and take this seriously rather than what is stated here by some women who state ‘oh some guy touched my ass today” followed by the angry emoticon.
Last but not least avoid aggressive neighborhoods altogether and settle in civilized areas such as maadi where foreigners are respected more than other neighborhoods.
Carrying mase is also a very good option in the event that something like this occurs and especially in isolated areas. Mase them and then run as fast as you can, just make sure you don’t use mase when it is windy.
Doing nothing would be a defeat and whatever you do make sure you leave the scene of incidence feeling that you have tried your best.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sic Luceat Lux:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: I emphasize Islam because that is the code of ethics that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are supposed to adhere by. Members may like it or not but Egypt is 90% Muslims despite the behavior taking place on the streets
Dunes, if you think Islam is the solution, then you are out of touch with reality dude..
There is no proof or evidence that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) can make men or women (much less nations) more ethical.
In fact, isn't Egypt more "Islamic" today than it was a few decades ago, yet sexual harassment is far worse now than it was back then?
The truth is, religion and morality are mutually exclusive....not inclusive.
Every man has the power to change his behaviour, and until he makes a personal decision to become a better man, religion can't do a damn thing for him.
Anyway, thats besides the point and off topic.. We've had these discussions before on E.S, and it all comes back to the same things as VB and others have noted..
Sexual segregation and repression both lead to abnormal sexual and emotional development in regards to dealing with members of the opposite sex, which results in an exponential increase in the rate of sexual harassment/misconduct.
Men and women were not created to be apart from each other. We are social creatures, and we need to interact with other people for proper maturation.
When this interaction is limited or repressed, problems are sure to arise in more ways than one.
Also, the vilification of female sexuality plays a large part to be sure. Women in Islamic nations have the unfortunate luck of being seen as both the tempters of men, and bastions of virtue at the same time.
Which explains why women get most of the blame for the sexual misconduct of men...and also why "covering up" is not only recommended, but mandatory in certain nations or locales..
This whole thing really is quite complicated to be sure.
It's an interesting synthesis of religion, culture and lets not forget, economics.
I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about sexual harassment in the Gulf nations to the same extent as what I've heard about Egypt.
There is less general malcontent and poverty in the Gulf nations though, so I'm sure that has much to do with it.
~Alistair
Ali, don't feel shunned, i will appropriately reply to your post 2morrow(isa) as i have obligations i must attend, later dude.
Posted by Almaz. (Member # 14025) on :
I have an American friend who insisted on going for walks when visiting me in Cairo. I used to suggest not to do so - exactly because of the known harassment. She developed a brilliant tactic.
When a man would approach her and start to speak or attempt to touch her, she used to stop abruptly facing the man ..dramatically looking up to the sky, both palms open, and with her highest most annoying pitch, used to say: LA ALLAH ELLA, ALLAH MOHAMED RASSOOL ALLAH and then looking at the man in the eyes: ALLAH YAKHODKOM YA KOFFAR.[Hope that God takes you, you unbelievers) And leave the man flabbergasted wallahy!!
My sister was with her one day, and told me this. I found it brilliant since it was successful.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled:
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not.
My advice for foreign women would be:
Learn a short yet effectively stern Arabic vocabulary that would be able to deal with incidences of harassment. Such a vocabulary is not solely to confront the attacker but to also familiarize people in vicinity with what transpired to the foreign women. And by simple language I mean just that, one sentence should be something like: "Shame on you!! – shame on you!! – respect yourself!! and respect me!! – respect me!!! – I am a guest in your country!!" . Such should be said loudly and sternly enough so that people in the vicinity should hear you. Repeat this enough times to gather attention.
Then insha allah when people gather, the violated foreign women should say in a lower yet stern voice. "This man (while pointing at him) has touched me in an inappropriate way". repeat this a few times.
Foreign women should also file complaints in police stations and they should also pursue these complaints, regardless if the police take them seriously or not. All these complaints should hopefully gain the interest of the press and that would be a very good thing. Also foreign women should lobby anyone and every organization that will lend them an ear in this regard. Write your foreign ministers, home secretary, write the consuls and ambassadors and UN organizations, etc and inform them of your ordeals. In other words apply some kind of pressure on the Egyptian government through these sources.
Be proactive and take this seriously rather than what is stated here by some women who state ‘oh some guy touched my ass today” followed by the angry emoticon.
Last but not least avoid aggressive neighborhoods altogether and settle in civilized areas such as maadi where foreigners are respected more than other neighborhoods.
Carrying mase is also a very good option in the event that something like this occurs and especially in isolated areas. Mase them and then run as fast as you can, just make sure you don’t use mase when it is windy.
Doing nothing would be a defeat and whatever you do make sure you leave the scene of incidence feeling that you have tried your best.
Almaz's phrases would work cheers for that Almaz.
Ma'adi? civilised. Nope it happens there too.
The only place I have had no harassment at all has been my compound. We have security posted every 50 yds or so and every worker is warned not to approach residents so that works. Not a single comment or sly look even. Ma'adi was not somewhere I would consider free from harassment at all. Was that not where the slasher hung out?
I think everyone should mail the PM on the address above. Writing to our consulates etc will do nothing I feel. Every instance will require proof and you wont have that. They slink off into the shadows and the police will do diddley squat full stop if you stop them in the street.
We need the decent men in Egypt to put a stop to it when they hear it. Imagine if that was your wife. You would hate to think that men walked on by if your wife was being insulted or assaulted. But that is what happens here.
It is appalling to think that men sit in cafes and watch and listen to friends do this and do nothing about it.
Mace is a very good idea! is it available in Cairo?
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: I have an American friend who insisted on going for walks when visiting me in Cairo. I used to suggest not to do so - exactly because of the known harassment. She developed a brilliant tactic.
When a man would approach her and start to speak or attempt to touch her, she used to stop abruptly facing the man ..dramatically looking up to the sky, both palms open, and with her highest most annoying pitch, used to say: LA ALLAH ELLA, ALLAH MOHAMED RASSOOL ALLAH and then looking at the man in the eyes: ALLAH YAKHODKOM YA KOFFAR.[Hope that God takes you, you unbelievers) And leave the man flabbergasted wallahy!!
My sister was with her one day, and told me this. I found it brilliant since it was successful.
Ohhh that sounds good! Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled:
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
What do WE do? The foreign women be they moslem or not.
My advice for foreign women would be:
Learn a short yet effectively stern Arabic vocabulary that would be able to deal with incidences of harassment. Such a vocabulary is not solely to confront the attacker but to also familiarize people in vicinity with what transpired to the foreign women. And by simple language I mean just that, one sentence should be something like: "Shame on you!! – shame on you!! – respect yourself!! and respect me!! – respect me!!! – I am a guest in your country!!" . Such should be said loudly and sternly enough so that people in the vicinity should hear you. Repeat this enough times to gather attention.
Then insha allah when people gather, the violated foreign women should say in a lower yet stern voice. "This man (while pointing at him) has touched me in an inappropriate way". repeat this a few times.
Foreign women should also file complaints in police stations and they should also pursue these complaints, regardless if the police take them seriously or not. All these complaints should hopefully gain the interest of the press and that would be a very good thing. Also foreign women should lobby anyone and every organization that will lend them an ear in this regard. Write your foreign ministers, home secretary, write the consuls and ambassadors and UN organizations, etc and inform them of your ordeals. In other words apply some kind of pressure on the Egyptian government through these sources.
Be proactive and take this seriously rather than what is stated here by some women who state ‘oh some guy touched my ass today” followed by the angry emoticon.
Last but not least avoid aggressive neighborhoods altogether and settle in civilized areas such as maadi where foreigners are respected more than other neighborhoods.
Carrying mase is also a very good option in the event that something like this occurs and especially in isolated areas. Mase them and then run as fast as you can, just make sure you don’t use mase when it is windy.
Doing nothing would be a defeat and whatever you do make sure you leave the scene of incidence feeling that you have tried your best.
Almaz's phrases would work cheers for that Almaz.
Ma'adi? civilised. Nope it happens there too.
The only place I have had no harassment at all has been my compound. We have security posted every 50 yds or so and every worker is warned not to approach residents so that works. Not a single comment or sly look even. Ma'adi was not somewhere I would consider free from harassment at all. Was that not where the slasher hung out?
I think everyone should mail the PM on the address above. Writing to our consulates etc will do nothing I feel. Every instance will require proof and you wont have that. They slink off into the shadows and the police will do diddley squat full stop if you stop them in the street.
We need the decent men in Egypt to put a stop to it when they hear it. Imagine if that was your wife. You would hate to think that men walked on by if your wife was being insulted or assaulted. But that is what happens here.
It is appalling to think that men sit in cafes and watch and listen to friends do this and do nothing about it.
Mace is a very good idea! is it available in Cairo?
In my expierence just that area's as Ma'adi attracks a certain kind of 'visitors' because they know the change to see foreign women is bigger. In my own area people know about me, and harassing me would bring them into big trouble. That hang-out spots like shopping-malls, coffeeshops, in area's frequented with foreigners, are ideal places to hang out for these men too. Cilantro Ma'adi would not be an ideal place to go for me, while the little one in Heliopolis should be. That's why I prefer to go to places where no foreigners are coming, but also have a certain rate of class. It's much more relaxed to sit down without getting Arabic insults, assuming you will not understand anyway, behind your back. I'm never alone, there is always an Egyptian male or female with me, but I noticed there is a difference between male or female guidance. Female guidance doesn't always stop them....
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
mrs quote -
quote: In my lifetime, living in the UK these are some of my experiences:
Sexual Assult
Family member raped
Stood at bus stop while a bloke stood next to me with a hard on OUTSIDE his trousers
Whistles, looks, comments especially in summer, when I wore less.
constantly men trying to 'cop off'
Men with girlfriends/wives still trying to 'cop off'
Men grabbing your back side when you walk past in a club
+ much much more
WOWWWWW Mrs, i really don't know where you lived in the uk but honestly i have NEVER heard such things happen. I am no saying that rape doesn't happen of course it does and yes men will beep a car or whisle but for all those things to happen to you or someone close - i am shocked.
I do know that the harrassment i got in Egypt was the biggest down fall for me when i lived there. I too could not leave the apartment without something happening it got to the point that my hubby didn't want me to do anything on my own Once on a microbus a man sitting directly behind me put his hand down the side of the chair and rubbed my leg, I grabbed his hand and twisted it as hard as i could and banged it on the door. I thought he would stop but heck no he then decided to put his hand between my chair and rub my bum. I must admit i lost it i turned around and begain punching him on the head and shouted. To be fair other men on the bus were very angry with him and slapped him too. The bus stopped and the driver chucked him off. I NEVER wear revealing clothes and am always covered (long sleeves long skirt/trousers) and i have had so many things happen to me it would take me a year to explain them but i do find it very sad but angry that this happens.
I must say though that shouting something arabic to them does help i often say "you are muslim yes? have some respect for yourself and for me - show me where your mama is so i can tell her what a good son she has"
They are ashamed - sometimes
Take care
Posted by mysticheart (Member # 6838) on :
I guess it depends on whether you are egyptian or foreign. If foreign you can go to the police and the guy will be arrested. Expierenced that once. They offered to have the guy beaten for behaving as a dog. I simply told them not necessary and asked him to be released, the point was made.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: Secondly have you noticed no arab women here making comments?
They're too busy shopping for a new pair of Dominatrix knee length boots with clear heels.
They should have their own store, Whores-R-Us.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by mysticheart: They offered to have the guy beaten for behaving as a dog.
So typical for Egypt's police forces!!! Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily:
quote:Originally posted by mysticheart: They offered to have the guy beaten for behaving as a dog.
So typical for Egypt's police forces!!!
I think in this case it's justified.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit:
quote:Originally posted by harankash: Secondly have you noticed no arab women here making comments?
They're too busy shopping for a new pair of Dominatrix knee length boots with clear heels.
They should have their own store, Whores-R-Us.
Yeah what's all that about
As I said before there is more dominatrix stuff worn her as casual than there is in Soho and have you see the ladies 'lingerie' shops!
you have to get that stuff through the post or from Ann Summers!! you cannot buy that stuff in regular high street shops like here
I tell you they are obsessed by sex....no doubt about it.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
No it's not, Vader. In the country were I live, people have rights even if they did wrong. People are given a fair trial, no physical punishment from police officers and if convicted they get sentenced with serving time in a jail, community service etc.
IT'S NOT IN THE POWER OF THE POLICE TO PUNISH AN INDIVIDUAL. That's the problem with Egypt, constant violation of human rights!!
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: They're too busy shopping for a new pair of Dominatrix knee length boots with clear heels.
They should have their own store, Whores-R-Us.
Come on, VB, no need to write that. There are several reasons why we haven't received replies of Egyptian ladies yet and one of them is because they are hardly posting on ES anyway.
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: They're too busy shopping for a new pair of Dominatrix knee length boots with clear heels.
They should have their own store, Whores-R-Us.
Come on, VB, no need to write that. There are several reasons why we haven't received replies of Egyptian ladies yet and one of them is because they are hardly posting on ES anyway.
Gimme a break; it's true, I didn't make it up, and it's been pointed out by several people.
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: No it's not, Vader. In the country were I live, people have rights even if they did wrong. People are given a fair trial, no physical punishment from police officers and if convicted they get sentenced with serving time in a jail, community service etc.
IT'S NOT IN THE POWER OF THE POLICE TO PUNISH AN INDIVIDUAL. That's the problem with Egypt, constant violation of human rights!!
Yes it is.
You can't get a fair trial here. And anyway, I think a beating is a quicker remedy for this behavior than jail.
Actually in this case it should be in the power of anyone that has power to punish an individual, you violate a woman, you get beat the f*ck up.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
You can't be advocating women rights in one case and violate human rights in another one.
I agree you can't get a fair trial in Egypt, I also don't believe that is common to prosecute people for sexual harassment in this country despite that specific laws exist.
The key is educating people, if they don't receive the proper upbringing from their homes let the religious worship places (mosques and churches) do their fair part in it.
Sexual verbal harassment and groping of women can't be acceptable in Egypt's society. People - women and men alike - have to stand up against this kind of shameful behaviour. The truth is it's widely tolerated among the men - unfortunately.
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
Define human rights.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sic Luceat Lux:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: I emphasize Islam because that is the code of ethics that the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are supposed to adhere by. Members may like it or not but Egypt is 90% Muslims despite the behavior taking place on the streets
Dunes, if you think Islam is the solution, then you are out of touch with reality dude..
There is no proof or evidence that Islam (or any other religion for that matter) can make men or women (much less nations) more ethical.
In fact, isn't Egypt more "Islamic" today than it was a few decades ago, yet sexual harassment is far worse now than it was back then?
The truth is, religion and morality are mutually exclusive....not inclusive.
Every man has the power to change his behaviour, and until he makes a personal decision to become a better man, religion can't do a damn thing for him.
Anyway, thats besides the point and off topic.. We've had these discussions before on E.S, and it all comes back to the same things as VB and others have noted..
Sexual segregation and repression both lead to abnormal sexual and emotional development in regards to dealing with members of the opposite sex, which results in an exponential increase in the rate of sexual harassment/misconduct.
Men and women were not created to be apart from each other. We are social creatures, and we need to interact with other people for proper maturation.
When this interaction is limited or repressed, problems are sure to arise in more ways than one.
Also, the vilification of female sexuality plays a large part to be sure. Women in Islamic nations have the unfortunate luck of being seen as both the tempters of men, and bastions of virtue at the same time.
Which explains why women get most of the blame for the sexual misconduct of men...and also why "covering up" is not only recommended, but mandatory in certain nations or locales..
This whole thing really is quite complicated to be sure.
It's an interesting synthesis of religion, culture and lets not forget, economics.
I don't recall ever seeing or hearing about sexual harassment in the Gulf nations to the same extent as what I've heard about Egypt.
There is less general malcontent and poverty in the Gulf nations though, so I'm sure that has much to do with it.
~Alistair
To state that Islam is incapable of fostering ethical behavior in individuals is erroneous. Islam brought morals and piety to the pre-Islamic Arabs, a society that was generally vulgar, base and despicable to say the least. The reproach and decadence exhibited by Egyptian males contradicts the teachings of Islam. Keep in mind that Egypt is one nation and does not constitute the entire Ummah. Egypt is also not the only nation that is ‘more Islamic’ today, other nations are also ‘more Islamic’ today including the vast majority of Arab states. Yet this hideous behavior is practically more or less an Egyptian phenomenon. I once thought that poverty played a major role but I do not longer feel this way because there are other Muslim nations that suffer worse poverty yet their males don’t exhibit such vile behavior as Egyptian males.
I am not setting precedents here, what I am suggesting is for Egypt to take some of the measures that other Muslim nations took over the past decade or so. I will reiterate again and regardless if what I say falls on deaf ears. Egyptian muslim women must play an integral role in Islamic policy in Egypt. Al-Azhar must support female scholars and the government must give women positions that command respect. These actions must be addressed in a religious context and criminalized in a penal code. Suggesting western ideals such as desegregation of the sexes is a silly notion given the fact that Egypt is 90% Muslim and 50% illiterate. I can only wish that the posters on ES use logic rather than notions when trying to convey what they feel is the solution. Most muslim nations are in fact segregated yet this harassment phenomena does not exists in those nations. Neither segregation nor economic hardships are excuses in other Muslim nations and they shouldn’t be excuses for the way Egyptian males are behaving.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
How is the situation in regards to sexual harassment of women in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Is it that extreme like it is in Egypt??
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Vader, Egypt is quite often in the news because of violations of human rights. Everyone remembers couple of highligthed cases were people got physically abused by police officers (f.e. the one case were a minibus driver received a broom stick up his anus and the whole torture was filmed by a cellphone). Physical torture is widespread in police stations throughout Egypt up to this day and will continue.
Other violations of human rights you find in the linked article like freedom of speech, freedom of religion etc.
People getting arrested for no reason, thrown into jails and forced to make confessions under horrible torture.
Also African migrants are getting killed and the ones who are getting napped by Egyptian border troops are subject to abuse.
Why do you think Egypt was so p*ssed when the US announced it's not gonna forward the whole amount of financial aid last year if torture continues?
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
I said I agreed to the harasser getting beaten up not getting raped.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Egypt.Constitution
Chapter Three: Public Freedoms, Rights and Duties
Art.42: Any citizen arrested, detained or whose freedom is restricted shall be treated in a manner concomitant with the preservation of his dignity. No physical or moral harm is to be inflicted upon him. He may not be detained or imprisoned except in places defined by laws organizing prisons. If a confession is proved to have been made by a person under any of the aforementioned forms of duress or coercion, it shall be considered invalid and futile.
Well in any case, just being pulled from the shop he worked at that i was standing outside of when he approached me and insisted i should be with him and come home with him after i said i was married and taken to jail should be enough of a scare to him to make him think twice about making comments to any woman. I wasnt going to do anything but i told my husband what happened since i was waiting for him there, he went to the police across the street, the police went in and got the guy, asked me if that was the one, and threw him in back of truck. Went over what happened with me and took us all to the station. There, the "Chief", told me one of his relatives lives in the states and works on police force there, then said let us beat this man for behaving like such a dog and bringing the name of egyptian men down to such a level. I told them no, his offence had not been such that deserved a beating. The scare of being thrown in jail and humiliation of being dragged out of the shop in front of everyone was enough. If more guys that did things had this done, I imagine it would occur far less.
Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
I have a question for people on this post, since Egypt is being discussed as an unsafe place for women to walk the streets, for fear of being harrassed the minute they leave their house or get off the plane, and people have said this is due to dysfunctional sexual attitudes because of segregation. Are you saying that there are more sexually motivated crimes in Egypt than in the UK or US? More abductions, rapes, abuse, exposure etc etc.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
You can't compare the media in the US or UK to here, where most sexually motivated crimes are not covered, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen tho.
Posted by ExptinCAI (Member # 1439) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I have a question for people on this post, since Egypt is being discussed as an unsafe place for women to walk the streets, for fear of being harrassed the minute they leave their house or get off the plane, and people have said this is due to dysfunctional sexual attitudes because of segregation. Are you saying that there are more sexually motivated crimes in Egypt than in the UK or US? More abductions, rapes, abuse, exposure etc etc.
I don't read that most women FEAR, but rather are FRUSTRATED and angry at the behavior. The verbal harassment does not translate to violent crime in 99.9% of the time in Egypt and people simply don't associate it as something that would escalate to a physical danger for a woman.
Not til those eid mob attacks, that is.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I have a question for people on this post, since Egypt is being discussed as an unsafe place for women to walk the streets, for fear of being harrassed the minute they leave their house or get off the plane
I haven't seen any posts here saying that women here feel in actual, physical danger, from where exactly did you get this?
Personally I have no clue as to the number of sexually motivated crimes here, and I doubt it would be possible to get reliable statistics. To me, the harassment is ubiquitous, annoying etc., but hardly ever makes me feel in danger.
That said, there was an incident here in Maadi a couple of months ago in which several young guys tried to drag a woman into their car in the middle of the street. Luckily, she was able to escape and to remember the number of the licence plate, but it's still very disturbing to think of it ...
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Egypt.Constitution
Chapter Three: Public Freedoms, Rights and Duties
Art.42: Any citizen arrested, detained or whose freedom is restricted shall be treated in a manner concomitant with the preservation of his dignity. No physical or moral harm is to be inflicted upon him. He may not be detained or imprisoned except in places defined by laws organizing prisons. If a confession is proved to have been made by a person under any of the aforementioned forms of duress or coercion, it shall be considered invalid and futile.
What the hell ? Prison isn't moral harm ?
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Well people who are a danger to others and the society need to be put somewhere! Read Art.41.
The conditions of Egyptian jails in general is another issue!
Posted by Sic Luceat Lux (Member # 12020) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: To state that Islam is incapable of fostering ethical behavior in individuals is erroneous.
I never said that Islam was incapable of fostering ethnical behaviour. I said it was incapable of making people behave more ethnical.
You may think I'm quibbling, but there is a distinction.
Islam does prescribe many positive habits and behaviours to it's adherents, but whether these same adherents follow it is another matter entirely.
Thats what I was getting at. Religion can only prescribe; it cannot force or make people behave any differently than how they are already inclined however.
Case in point, there has been countless immoral acts committed under the banner of Islam throughout the centuries..
And Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, is considered by many to be amongst the most immoral and corrupt nations on the planet.
Where does it begin and where does it end?
quote:Egypt is also not the only nation that is ‘more Islamic’ today, other nations are also ‘more Islamic’ today including the vast majority of Arab states.
Indeed, but my point in raising this, was that despite Egypt's greater religious status today, the sexual harassment problem has only become worse. It has not improved at all by most accounts.
quote:Yet this hideous behavior is practically more or less an Egyptian phenomenon. I once thought that poverty played a major role but I do not longer feel this way because there are other Muslim nations that suffer worse poverty yet their males don’t exhibit such vile behavior as Egyptian males.
Hmmm I'm not so sure Egypt is the only Arab nation where this behaviour is commonplace. It is the worst in this regard perhaps, but not the only one I think.
I remember when I was in Kuwait many years ago, myself, another guy and three western women went downtown to do some shopping and sight seeing. One of the females was blonde haired and blue eyed, and the other two were brunettes. None of them were what I'd call hot or gorgeous, but they were fairly attractive.
With that said, the local men had more than a passing interest in them. They followed us throughout the bazaar, and even when we were in our vehicle, they would bang on the windows and proclaim their love for these foreign women..
Some guys even asked for their hand in marriage by saying,"I marry you!"
More telling than asking, but you get the point
Then we went jet skiing in Kuwait harbor, and the other guy managed to capsize the jet ski he was on by doing fancy tricks with it.
Then for compensation, the guy who ran the jet ski operation wanted us to SELL one of the females to him
quote:Suggesting western ideals such as desegregation of the sexes is a silly notion given the fact that Egypt is 90% Muslim and 50% illiterate.
If Egypt had less sexual harassment a few decades ago when it was more secular than religious, what does this say?
quote:Most muslim nations are in fact segregated yet this harassment phenomena does not exists in those nations. Neither segregation nor economic hardships are excuses in other Muslim nations and they shouldn’t be excuses for the way Egyptian males are behaving.
It all depends on the level of segregation. Saudi Arabia being the most segregated, while Lebanon perhaps being the least.
Egypt seems to be somewhere in the middle.
Like I said earlier though, it's a complex problem with many underlying factors not easily addressed.
~Alistair
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Okay here we go.
Today Jean and I had to go to Akbar Elyoum University in 6th October City. Anyone of you here study there? Anyone of you there about 2pm?
If you were you would have seen the pantomime.
We both very respectfully dressed in fact over dressed in the heat!
We were accompanied by an assistant to a cafeteria.
From the very second we entered the door, it seemed like some sort of wild rodeo show had started from the roars of the students. Both male and female! All females in Hijab all sitting cosy! with all the male students.
Both Jean and I walked with the man to the counter and we could not be heard for the screaming and shouting in arabic directed at us. Immediately as I went to the counter one student left his seat and being egged on by the males and females in the room came and stood leaning against my arm and saying hi and a load of the usual crap to the raucous applause of the onlookers. Jean was trying to explain something and was having trouble being heard over the din.
Now I can best describe the scene as being in a nursery school for chimpanzees with megaphones on full volume. As I stood there bewildered and looking at the tables of students all staring and laughing, making comments I was just totally disgusted. I slide my arm away from the one on my right and he turned to take a bow from his audience.
Having had enough I went over to the table with the most student. About 12 of them mixed and asked if they spoke English. They all said yes. I then asked them collectively was this a university or a nursery school. I asked their ages to thunderous applause and to one specific girl in particular who was answering me checking with her male friends to see if she was funny enough.
I stood there amazed and asked had they no respect for visitors to their university. They replied through the screaming with laughter yes we are children. I said yes you are very young ones at that. Like little 4 year olds to which they laughed even louder. I asked what was so funny and they had no reply. I said that it was shameful that visitors come to their university and see behaviour that most would not even see in a primary school. They were each trying to say things to me in broken English each trying to outdo the other in comedy.
The next table up was a young man sitting with a young girl. He apologised for them. They were both embarassed ans said to just ignore them and told them to stop. They totally ignored him. I walked away back to the counter where Jean was talking with the man and they still ( it is hard to describe in detail but were almost in a frenzy of throwing, things, pushing and jostling each other whilst laughing and back slapping).
I was so sad.
I tried to imagine my university and 2 foreign women walking in and having to endure this fiasco?
I just could not imagine it ever.
As we walked outside I asked the assistant accompanying us 'how could he suffer this every day from supposedly adults in education and he just shrugged his shoulders.
So out of a room of about maybe 40 students only one was embarassed enough to intervene.
I was sad that half were hijab'd girls. ( and if their parents knew what was going on would not be paying next years fees for sure!).
I was incredibly sad that this was your future. Your next parents, your next mothers and fathers, your lawyers and doctors.
God help Egypt! Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
That scene sounds sadly familiar.
Chimpanzees is the perfect word too, it seems it doesn't take much of anything at all to amuse these people.
IMO, this exaggerated laughter, finger-pointing & generally boisterous behavior is what egyptians do to detract attention from themselves.
Posted by Vader (Member # 14189) on :
That's sad.
What the hell is Akbar elyoum University ?
It sounds like a cheap private University where people that didn't get good enough grades (goof offs like me) but aren't actually interested in a good education (they still need a certificate) go to. They go have fun and play around all day, I have a few friends from several private Uni's and that's what happens there mostly.
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
That is sad harankash
I totally think though that you did the right thing and confront them Maybe just maybe when these 'children' are on their own later on in the day they reflect on their behaviour and wonder how they would of felt if it had of been them Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: That scene sounds sadly familiar.
It does. Posted by jean_bean (Member # 13715) on :
Hell, in my college days, I have been to wild beer guzzling FRAT parties that were not as loud. It was absolutely amazing to me. You would come running if you were outside, to see what the ruckus was all about. I was saying to Harankash on the way back to the car, that maybe we should be re-thinking our plans to learn arabic - cuz if we REALLY knew what crap they were saying - that there might have been a fist fight. Maybe right after our arabic class, we both should be taking a self defense class, when we go off on idiots like these ones, at least we can do some damage.. Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
Ladies making claims of harassment, Please post pics. I don't believe you're all that you claim to be. Pics for us to take your claims seriously and maybe just maybe help you out.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Sounds like they were threatened by you...not sure why. Sorry to say it is also a maturity issue, and pack mentality. They feed off of each other to be funnier and more insulting...riot mentality runs along the same idea. I'm sure they loved the fact that you went over and fed into what they were dishing out, isn't there someone in charge of the university that you can complain to? Better yet - take photos next time with your mobile phone and put them on the net...sitting with their boyfriends. Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
^^ You can't shame people that have no shame to begin with.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Ladies making claims of harassment, Please post pics. I don't believe you're all that you claim to be. Pics for us to take your claims seriously and maybe just maybe help you out.
Harankash, are you sure you wanna take up Arabic lessons at this place??
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Ladies making claims of harassment, Please post pics. I don't believe you're all that you claim to be. Pics for us to take your claims seriously and maybe just maybe help you out.
Well, post em up. I have my own routine thank you
Posted by Oldbag (Member # 9889) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: Ladies making claims of harassment, Please post pics. I don't believe you're all that you claim to be. Pics for us to take your claims seriously and maybe just maybe help you out.
This suggests to me Egyguy that you are thinking that sexual harassment will be related to attractiveness. No, its a power and control thing - in the UK for example there have been instances of 90 year old women being raped and also tiny babies. This link relates to rape specifically. web page
Now, my experiences of sexual harassment in Egypt are minimal compared to what I and very close friends and relatives have experienced in the UK, and I have never felt in fear of my LIFE in Egypt the way I have in the UK, but I am not belittling the experiences of others here in Egypt at all.
Everyone's opinions will reflect either their own experiences or those of people they know personally.
Some UK people will never have experienced or rarely experienced the things that I list below so will not quite believe its as bad as Egypt, for me, my experience is precisely reversed, and maybe I should consider myself very lucky that I have experienced very little of it in Egypt.
In the **UK** for example, I have either experienced or have close friends/relatives who have experienced the following items of sexual harassement - more than one instance of most of them:
- rape - men on public transport putting hands up skirts - men on very crowded metro trains pressing their hard-ons into backs - men standing in bushes and wanking so school girls can see their 'glory' - men getting their willies out on trains - men following late at night in a way DELIBERATELY designed to cause fear - men walking behind late at night wanking and getting home to discover ejaculate all down back of coat - men grabbing boobs in public places - men manoeuvering you into position from which you cannot escape and then groping you - men in senior positions making life hell and causing loss of job to junior females who reject their advances - 14 year old boy in class start wanking while teacher writing on board so when she turns round she gets a good view of it - car loads of young men on Saturday nights driving past whistling, cat-calling and the like - men at work posting up nudey women calendars when there is only 1 woman working there - and then getting very angry when she retaliates with a fit nudey bloke calendar. - oh yes, and being propositioned in the toilets of a pub by an aging lesbian
My personal experiences relate to 9 of the above situations and on a couple of occasions I have been terrified for my life. Once I ran into a police station late at night begging a police officer to escort me home because I knew someone (a stranger who was angry with me for rejecting his advances earlier) was waiting for me in the dark side road I had to go up to get home.
Sad but true. Sexual harassment occurs all over the world and in many guises.
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
oldbag, I've had men show me their dicks. I've had guys grab my boobs. I was not scared, but annoyed.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Akhbar El Youm is I think related to the newspaper of the same name but not sure? Just metres away from the ACU Ahram Canadian Uni and the difference was striking! We were in both and others on business.
Tiger We are having lessons in an American Place, not a university thank God!
Smuckers
You know it is only afer the fact you realise what you 'should have done' but to be honest at the time you just cannot believe what you are seeing.
I was trying to describe it to OB last night but words failed me. You cannot express it because it is something that I have never seen before except in a zoo setting at feeding time. The camera is a great idea! : ) and I am sure that they would even have posed all hung around each others necks as they were 'that' out of it!! I mean like they were like they were high on drugs or something???? you really had to witness it.......one of those things that you never forget.
Very sad, but also very eye opening too......
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Sounds like they were threatened by you...not sure why. Sorry to say it is also a maturity issue, and pack mentality. They feed off of each other to be funnier and more insulting...riot mentality runs along the same idea. I'm sure they loved the fact that you went over and fed into what they were dishing out, isn't there someone in charge of the university that you can complain to? Better yet - take photos next time with your mobile phone and put them on the net...sitting with their boyfriends.
If anything I actually feel you girls are feeding off each other horror stories and being a bit delusional here. It's not that bad (couldn't or you wouldn't be there at the first place) and it happens all over the world. And yah, it's been happening since the dawn of history. Instinct is what it's I'm afraid. I do believe however that - generally speaking - Egypt, with regard to women abuse issues, Egypt is safer than elsewhere. Link below is to a popular American show. "To Catch A Predator" in case you're not aware!
Good luck anyway. But don't go on frightening each other sleepless.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
You're right EgyGuy, we should act like it never happens, that will help things so much better. But it's easy for you to say as you don't have to deal with it. To be honest I don't really either, but I have experienced it a little and can only imagine how it would feel on a daily basis. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, sorry to say that is the main problem with you Egypians. You honestly are so hopeless that you think to ignore problems and issues makes it better. Guess what! It doesn't work that way.
I don't mean to imply that Egypt is any more unsafe than any other place, but this IS an Egypt message board. IMO there needs to be some sort of public service announcements for women on how to handle the problems and the harrassment, and for the apathetic bystanders who turn their head and don't want to see the truth. Everyone is to blame if nobody does anything. Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: You're right EgyGuy, we should act like it never happens, that will help things so much better. But it's easy for you to say as you don't have to deal with it. To be honest I don't really either, but I have experienced it a little and can only imagine how it would feel on a daily basis. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, sorry to say that is the main problem with you Egypians. You honestly are so hopeless that you think to ignore problems and issues makes it better. Guess what! It doesn't work that way.
Thank you for confirming my point about most of these posts. Just pure hate. We hopeless Egyptians ha Well, then .... Leave! See, unlike some fellow posters here of Egyptian descent but no real affiliation or loyalty to their homeland, I will not try to please you or attack you for that matter just because of where you come from. I'll tell it as it's. Bluntly and without much reference to articles, support groups and that nonsense. Based on what I saw here and there. I do honestly believe that women are worse off in the west.
A whistle while you walk by, a word that you don't even understand, would pale in comparison to what I see here.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: I do honestly believe that women are worse off in the west.
NONSENSE!!
You have to be a woman to make this kind of statement. Walk down a street somewhere in Europe or in the US and then walk down a street in Cairo.
HUGE difference!
I don't really understand why you keep contributing to the thread when you don't want to hear what WOMEN have to say about sexual harassment INSIDE of Egypt.
Would you take an Egyptian woman's experience for granted rather than one of a foreign one??
Please Egyptian women come forward and reply to this post. Maybe this man will at least open one ear for you.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oldbag: This suggests to me Egyguy that you are thinking that sexual harassment will be related to attractiveness.
I'm really surprised there are still people thinking this since it's obvious that attractiveness has nothing to do with it.
I guess it is just a variation of the argument "maybe your clothes were too revealing". People want to shut you up and make you feel guilty by trying to imply that harassment might be some sort of flattering thing and that we're sort of boasting when we talk about it.
Bizarre. But it reminds me of the reaction of some guys when I throw a really bad insult in Arabic at them. They get sooo upset and offended because - hey - they were only paying you a compliment, what's offensive about that? Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: You're right EgyGuy, we should act like it never happens, that will help things so much better. But it's easy for you to say as you don't have to deal with it. To be honest I don't really either, but I have experienced it a little and can only imagine how it would feel on a daily basis. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, sorry to say that is the main problem with you Egypians. You honestly are so hopeless that you think to ignore problems and issues makes it better. Guess what! It doesn't work that way.
Thank you for confirming my point about most of these posts. Just pure hate. We hopeless Egyptians ha Well, then .... Leave! See, unlike some fellow posters here of Egyptian descent but no real affiliation or loyalty to their homeland, I will not try to please you or attack you for that matter just because of where you come from. I'll tell it as it's. Bluntly and without much reference to articles, support groups and that nonsense. Based on what I saw here and there. I do honestly believe that women are worse off in the west.
A whistle while you walk by, a word that you don't even understand, would pale in comparison to what I see here.
Well you would be very wrong. It is quite obvious you have never been outside of Egypt.
Because I said 'you Egyptians' does not mean I have hate, my own daughter is Egyptian so that would be pretty silly. But I'll be damned if I allow her to be raised with the idea that ignoring problems makes them magically go away, perhaps what Egypt needs is a new generation of thinkers outside of the box...or the pyramid or what have you ~
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Oldbag: This suggests to me Egyguy that you are thinking that sexual harassment will be related to attractiveness.
I'm really surprised there are still people thinking this since it's obvious that attractiveness has nothing to do with it.
I guess it is just a variation of the argument "maybe your clothes were too revealing". People want to shut you up and make you feel guilty by trying to imply that harassment might be some sort of flattering thing and that we're sort of boasting when we talk about it.
Bizarre. But it reminds me of the reaction of some guys when I throw a really bad insult in Arabic at them. They get sooo upset and offended because - hey - they were only paying you a compliment, what's offensive about that?
Yes, what's the big deal. So, you walk by and a guy honks, or says something.... big deal. Should be flattering if we're talking a normal sane woman. But I get it. Maybe because the streets are filled with guys that you wouldn't normally go out with. It's about the source. I know. Simple really. If me for example, a handsome attractive devil made a move on you, you would probably smile. But the poor Falah (peasant) is not allowed. Women and discrimination ....!
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by egyguy:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: You're right EgyGuy, we should act like it never happens, that will help things so much better. But it's easy for you to say as you don't have to deal with it. To be honest I don't really either, but I have experienced it a little and can only imagine how it would feel on a daily basis. Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away, sorry to say that is the main problem with you Egypians. You honestly are so hopeless that you think to ignore problems and issues makes it better. Guess what! It doesn't work that way.
Thank you for confirming my point about most of these posts. Just pure hate. We hopeless Egyptians ha Well, then .... Leave! See, unlike some fellow posters here of Egyptian descent but no real affiliation or loyalty to their homeland, I will not try to please you or attack you for that matter just because of where you come from. I'll tell it as it's. Bluntly and without much reference to articles, support groups and that nonsense. Based on what I saw here and there. I do honestly believe that women are worse off in the west.
A whistle while you walk by, a word that you don't even understand, would pale in comparison to what I see here.
Well you would be very wrong. It is quite obvious you have never been outside of Egypt.
Because I said 'you Egyptians' does not mean I have hate, my own daughter is Egyptian so that would be pretty silly. But I'll be damned if I allow her to be raised with the idea that ignoring problems makes them magically go away, perhaps what Egypt needs is a new generation of thinkers outside of the box...or the pyramid or what have you ~
Haven't you learned in school that generalizations are uh ... kinda stupid. Especially when it comes to ethnicity or race. However I do have to admit that I can't stand Asians. Their girls are cute though!
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Sorry I should have said many Egyptians - I know not all think in such a way. BTW, didn't you generalize!?
Salaam. Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: Sorry I should have said many Egyptians - I know not all think in such a way. BTW, didn't you generalize!?
Salaam.
But why so serious? What's the big deal. Take it as a compliment. Prediction. 20 years from now you would wish to hear some Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
Smuckers u there? Annoyed at me. No more talk?
Women, they just wanna hear what they want!
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Sorry I was answering a PM. Serious about what? I'm far from serious.
Of course we women just want to hear what we want to hear, who doesn't? Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: But I get it. Maybe because the streets are filled with guys that you wouldn't normally go out with. It's about the source. I know. Simple really. If me for example, a handsome attractive devil made a move on you, you would probably smile. But the poor Falah (peasant) is not allowed.
We seem to be speaking different languages judging by what you read into my posts.
It is NOT flattering to receive a comment on the street, no matter who it is coming from, full stop. Why do these guys think they have to throw their opinion at me? I'm not a piece of meat on display for them to evaluate. Why do they think I care to hear their opinion? I don't!
Interesting that you seem to assume it's only low class or unattractive guys harassing women because this is definitely not the case. Handsome guys, guys in expensive cars or with expensive clothes harass women just the same. They are also the ones stopping beside you in their big cars asking you to get in. *puke*
I wouldn't ever go out with anyone who approaches me on the street because the fact that he does that makes him a despisable lowlife in my eyes, no matter how handsome he might be.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
But let's say it's done in a tactful manner. Mind you, the result is the same! So, a guy in good shape, well groomed says something interesting. Nothing direct but u being a smart woman, do understand his intention eventually. What would you do. And yes, it happens on the street. What would you do? Be honest now! Other ladies are welcome as well to contribute.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: But let's say it's done in a tactful manner. Mind you, the result is the same! So, a guy in good shape, well groomed says something interesting. Nothing direct but u being a smart woman, do understand his intention eventually. What would you do. And yes, it happens on the street. What would you do? Be honest now! Other ladies are welcome as well to contribute.
Dalia, u there?
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Egyguy, if he was politely asking me out, I would not mind. If he just wanted sex, and then followed me around when I refused his advances, then I would get angry and tell him off.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy: But let's say it's done in a tactful manner. Mind you, the result is the same! So, a guy in good shape, well groomed says something interesting. Nothing direct but u being a smart woman, do understand his intention eventually. What would you do. And yes, it happens on the street. What would you do? Be honest now! Other ladies are welcome as well to contribute.
Okay, my contribution: I would look at him from head-to-toe first,as if I stepped into dog-****. Then I would turn around and go on. Not a word from me!
Posted by Almaz. (Member # 14025) on :
quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: Egyguy, if he was politely asking me out, I would not mind. If he just wanted sex, and then followed me around when I refused his advances, then I would get angry and tell him off.
Answering someone that hits on you in the street is totally not recommended. Egyptian mentality: If you answer someone that hits on you, you are easy. SIMPLE.
Meeting men from the street is totally a nono. Regardless of their appearance. 'Some' men in cars could also be drug dealers or pimps.
We hear this all the time, and social workers, psychologists, families have to deal with these people after the fact, we see these stories also in documentaries, from unfortunate incidents reported in the newspapers etc..
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
if there are Egyptian men out there who think that whistling, commenting, winking, flirting, think in any way that they are being 'seductive' to a female they are SO wrong!
Especially of the Egyptian type.
Yes you may hit lucky on few in the resorts, or our european friends out looking specifically for that type of entertainment but you wont find any 'decent' woman offer you anything but contempt.
I think Egyguy that if you are getting favourable reactions to your seduction techniques then your obviously pleased with your results, but please dont think for one second that any woman who has any dignity will entertain you for a second.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: if there are Egyptian men out there who think that whistling, commenting, winking, flirting, think in any way that they are being 'seductive' to a female they are SO wrong!
Especially of the Egyptian type.
Yes you may hit lucky on few in the resorts, or our european friends out looking specifically for that type of entertainment but you wont find any 'decent' woman offer you anything but contempt.
I think Egyguy that if you are getting favourable reactions to your seduction techniques then your obviously pleased with your results, but please dont think for one second that any woman who has any dignity will entertain you for a second.
I don't understand why you're using me for an example here! Anyway, point I'm trying to make is that it's all about the approach. No woman refuses some attention. Maybe next time it happens you can give some tips to the boys. You know Dos and Don'ts. Help them become better persons. It's a skill you know.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
my tip for you would be organise a night in with your mother and sister and aunts.
Have tea and biscuits and then demonstrate with a flip chart, or use some U tube videos, tape your friends your seducation techniques. Tell them that you want THEIR opinion, NOT ours. Ask them what the young Egyptian man about town should be doing these days to attract the opposite sex and what works best for them or worked best when they were young. Ask them what language they prefer. Ask them what clothes you like the women to wear and ask for tips on how you better you can seduce women in the street or mall.
Ask your mother to then discuss with your father and other family males how to bring young men up with some respect and dignity and how they go about chosing prospective husbands for your sisters and cousins.
When you come back with that homework completed we can be of more assistance to you.
Hey try Akhbar Elyoum, you will get some great advice but target the local girls as they were the ones who found it attractive and appealing, the western ones were thoroughly disgusted.
Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
I am sure that you girls are finding it annoying, and thats a shame, but I still stand firm that it happens EVERYWHERE, I used to walk the streets with a pushchair and EVERY day without fail, there would be a comment, whistle, beep of car, whatever, that is just men. It actually didnt offend me, I've had worse as i've said, I remember a man even phoning me at work asking if i wanted to do 'shoe modelling'???!!!!, annonymous valentine cards just put through the door addressed with a description of me (stalking????!!!!). Some men just do this, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with segregation, Men in the UK are not segregated and as I have explained, much worse happens, and it happens often.
There are women going to Egypt on holiday, for 'girls' holidays, working in bars, going nightclubbing, sunbathing on beaches, meeting men etc etc. Why are they going if they are getting so much 'unwanted attention'
You know, MANY women actually like the attention and react in exactly the same way the woman did in the video clip, is this not giving men mixed messages? Maybe he figures if he tries it on with 10 girls one of them might respond ok?
I'm not saying its right or trying to belittle peoples experiences, but it should be put in perspective, if women go there dressed in the stuff they wear back hom and then complain when men react in a way that is usual for their culture, what do they expect? And i'm not saying its only those women that are getting 'hassled' but when in rome people should really do as the romans do.
Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?
You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable?
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
Mrs quote:-
Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?
You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think you really understand mrs, to be honest. It is not just whistles etc, it is the case that EVERYTIME you go outside you get hassled. Men licking their lips saying "you F**k me yes" or pis pis pis everywhere you walk. I have lived in the UK for most of my life and i am not saying that some things happen yes of course they do but not everytime you leave your front door. Men have done or said things to me even when my hubby has been with me, to which a fight erupts. My hubby and i have been back in the uk now for 9 years and he has never had to fight someone for what he sees as lack of respect shown towards his wife.
To suggest it can be caused by the clothes women wear - maybe you missed the point that the women (myself included) have stated that we always dress modestly and do as you say when in rome.
We all agree that it is safe living in Egypt but the daily harassment and on-slaught can drive a sane person completely insane! Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: pis pis pis
Hehehe. Ladies, may the force be with you! You can always wear a Niquab you know Ahhhhh, now we know why it's becoming ever more popular!
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
Just sweep it under the carpet, Egyguy, just like majority of men is doing. For me it has to do with respect. If a man, and it doesn't matter which nationality he has, shows he has his brains behind his zipper instead as in his head, he won't get any respect from me. His speach is not guided by his intellegence but by his hormones. So, what can you expect from such a Neanderthaler?
I've tried it once, between Arabics, to act exactly the same as the men were doing. I rated the passing men, gave comments, wistled, made jokes about them to the Arabic woman next to me. At first she was a little scared, but later she joined me. The men were not amused, hehe. I asked them why they were ashamed of us, while we were doing exactly the same as they were doing, in OUR company while one was in a relationship with one of them... What: respect??? I asked them why this was sooooo unrespectable.... I gave them a mirror to look at theirselves. Not necessarry to add that this was an expierence that I could only make once... Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
egyguy quote
You can always wear a Niquab you know
You know i had thought of that!
"pis pis pis" you know why do men think that this will make you notice them? The amount of men i have told "i am not a cat you idiot" would run into 100's
Egyguy what would your mum say to you if she knew you spoke or acted in a wrong way to any women? I am not being rude to you, i am curious as to what your mum would say
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: egyguy quote
You can always wear a Niquab you know
You know i had thought of that!
"pis pis pis" you know why do men think that this will make you notice them? The amount of men i have told "i am not a cat you idiot" would run into 100's
Egyguy what would your mum say to you if she knew you spoke or acted in a wrong way to any women? I am not being rude to you, i am curious as to what your mum would say
I never made the cat call! My mom ... well ... she often got rough with me and my brother for bringing girls home on a couple of occasions. Oh, that idiot of a Bawaab ... but we always managed to get him replaced anyway.
However, I'm sure she was young once and she understands how it's.
Posted by egyguy (Member # 13646) on :
quote:Originally posted by ?????: Just sweep it under the carpet, Egyguy, just like majority of men is doing. For me it has to do with respect. If a man, and it doesn't matter which nationality he has, shows he has his brains behind his zipper instead as in his head, he won't get any respect from me. His speach is not guided by his intellegence but by his hormones. So, what can you expect from such a Neanderthaler?
I've tried it once, between Arabics, to act exactly the same as the men were doing. I rated the passing men, gave comments, wistled, made jokes about them to the Arabic woman next to me. At first she was a little scared, but later she joined me. The men were not amused, hehe. I asked them why they were ashamed of us, while we were doing exactly the same as they were doing, in OUR company while one was in a relationship with one of them... What: respect??? I asked them why this was sooooo unrespectable.... I gave them a mirror to look at theirselves. Not necessarry to add that this was an expierence that I could only make once...
I've mentioned that in a previous post. You're living in a male dominated society where males get to do as they like (mind you I say males not men, it takes a lot to be a man). The average maturity level - if there is such a measure - is sub zero. After all what do you expect from males living with their parents well into their 30s.
There is really nothing much you can do. All I can say is be alert and do understand that the majority are quite harmless - not men enough to act through.
Neither I nor anyone else can stop you complaining. Sympathize, sure! Good Luck! Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Almaz, If I answer someone that hits on me, and they think that I'm easy, that's their problem. I know that I'm not. The egyptian men need to change their mentality and not think that every woman that answers them is easy. It depends on what the guy is doing. If he whistles at me, because he finds me attractive, then that is not sexual harrassment in my book. If he asks for a date because he finds my attractive, then that is not sexual harrassment. Cat calls, saying sexual things to me, grabbing my boobs, showing me their dick, all those things, I define as sexual harrassment. Whistling, asking for a date, honking, saying,"Hi, want to go home with me, baby?", That is not sexual harrassment. Bugging me after I refused a date is not sexual harrassment, either. Only if he got angry that I refused his advances and followed me, would I consider that sexual harrassment. Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I am sure that you girls are finding it annoying, and thats a shame, but I still stand firm that it happens EVERYWHERE, I used to walk the streets with a pushchair and EVERY day without fail, there would be a comment, whistle, beep of car, whatever, that is just men. It actually didnt offend me, I've had worse as i've said, I remember a man even phoning me at work asking if i wanted to do 'shoe modelling'???!!!!, annonymous valentine cards just put through the door addressed with a description of me (stalking????!!!!). Some men just do this, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with segregation, Men in the UK are not segregated and as I have explained, much worse happens, and it happens often.
There are women going to Egypt on holiday, for 'girls' holidays, working in bars, going nightclubbing, sunbathing on beaches, meeting men etc etc. Why are they going if they are getting so much 'unwanted attention'
You know, MANY women actually like the attention and react in exactly the same way the woman did in the video clip, is this not giving men mixed messages? Maybe he figures if he tries it on with 10 girls one of them might respond ok?
I'm not saying its right or trying to belittle peoples experiences, but it should be put in perspective, if women go there dressed in the stuff they wear back hom and then complain when men react in a way that is usual for their culture, what do they expect? And i'm not saying its only those women that are getting 'hassled' but when in rome people should really do as the romans do.
Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?
You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable?
Mrs, I don't think it is being implied that this sort of thing never happens in other countries. I might ask you how often you have been in Egypt, and how long you have been there and if you have ever wandered around a larger city there alone and how often, veiled or not. I am quick to point out that harrassment happens everywhere, but it really is comparably larger in Egypt both to foreigners and natives. I'm not talking about a simple cat call, I'm talking about full on groping, in public, in plain view. We've all had experiences back home, of course. It would be one thing if it were only a whistle, but your mere reaction to this thread shows very clearly how little you've experienced Egypt without your husband at your side. Posted by Almaz. (Member # 14025) on :
quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: Almaz, If I answer someone that hits on me, and they think that I'm easy, that's their problem. I know that I'm not. The egyptian men need to change their mentality and not think that every woman that answers them is easy. It depends on what the guy is doing. If he whistles at me, ybecause he finds me attractive, then that is not sexual harrassment in my book. If he asks for a date because he finds my attractive, then that is not sexual harrassment. Cat calls, saying sexual things to me, grabbing my boobs, showing me their dick, all those things, I define as sexual harrassment. Whistling, asking for a date, honking, saying,"Hi, want to go home with me, baby?", That is not sexual harrassment. Bugging me after I refused a date is not sexual harrassment, either. Only if he got angry that I refused his advances and followed me, would I consider that sexual harrassment.
Unfortunately, they will not change their mentality because they are convinced, brain washed maybe that they are right. And I'm referring to the Egyptian men that act in a gross way when they see a woman, as if they never saw one before, and have no self control, no class, no self respect. A lot of those types are visible when the population of a country is huge.
Some of the things you do not see as sexual harassment, believe it or not are exactly with the intention to harass you sexually, because these men are convinced that this is exactly what the woman they are harassing wants, whether she is a foreigner or a native. In their head, if she responds, she wants to go further.. and that means sex.
Unfortunately, it has been concluded from several studies that the offenders will not stop offending/harassing unless their 'victims' STOP giving in to their wishes. Example: respond, smile, show interest, talk to them...
Men who honk at a woman and leave without insisting she responds, may just be admirers..and harmless.. but if they keep it up in a flirtatious way and stalk her, the minute she responds he would have the satisfaction of catching her attention, and will go on till she gives in ...if she gets in the car these men will find it is their right to touch her and expect more. Again, that is the mentality in the Middle East as it is in many other countries in certain 'areas' with specific genre of men.
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Some men in this world are just plain creepy. Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I am sure that you girls are finding it annoying, and thats a shame, but I still stand firm that it happens EVERYWHERE, I used to walk the streets with a pushchair and EVERY day without fail, there would be a comment, whistle, beep of car, whatever, that is just men. It actually didnt offend me, I've had worse as i've said, I remember a man even phoning me at work asking if i wanted to do 'shoe modelling'???!!!!, annonymous valentine cards just put through the door addressed with a description of me (stalking????!!!!). Some men just do this, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with segregation, Men in the UK are not segregated and as I have explained, much worse happens, and it happens often.
There are women going to Egypt on holiday, for 'girls' holidays, working in bars, going nightclubbing, sunbathing on beaches, meeting men etc etc. Why are they going if they are getting so much 'unwanted attention'
You know, MANY women actually like the attention and react in exactly the same way the woman did in the video clip, is this not giving men mixed messages? Maybe he figures if he tries it on with 10 girls one of them might respond ok?
I'm not saying its right or trying to belittle peoples experiences, but it should be put in perspective, if women go there dressed in the stuff they wear back hom and then complain when men react in a way that is usual for their culture, what do they expect? And i'm not saying its only those women that are getting 'hassled' but when in rome people should really do as the romans do.
Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?
You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable?
Mrs, I don't think it is being implied that this sort of thing never happens in other countries. I might ask you how often you have been in Egypt, and how long you have been there and if you have ever wandered around a larger city there alone and how often, veiled or not. I am quick to point out that harrassment happens everywhere, but it really is comparably larger in Egypt both to foreigners and natives. I'm not talking about a simple cat call, I'm talking about full on groping, in public, in plain view. We've all had experiences back home, of course. It would be one thing if it were only a whistle, but your mere reaction to this thread shows very clearly how little you've experienced Egypt without your husband at your side.
ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone. I'm not likely to either, after this thread because you ladies have made me so scared! I'm just basing it on all the ladies that come on here, talking about their nights out? You remember when YR, Mystic and Miss Sharm had that post about them going to Egypt to paint the town red and the men wouldn't know what had hit them??? how come they felt able to do that if they get harrassment all the time? (and I'm not doubting what you're saying, I just dont see how they could?)
Also, Caringforwomen just said she didnt consider 'good intentioned' attention, eg. whistle etc, hassle, but maybe some other women on here would do, so do you not agree that these men are getting mixed messages about what is offensive or not?
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Almaz.: Meeting men from the street is totally a nono.
That's what my mother teached me too. Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs:
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I am sure that you girls are finding it annoying, and thats a shame, but I still stand firm that it happens EVERYWHERE, I used to walk the streets with a pushchair and EVERY day without fail, there would be a comment, whistle, beep of car, whatever, that is just men. It actually didnt offend me, I've had worse as i've said, I remember a man even phoning me at work asking if i wanted to do 'shoe modelling'???!!!!, annonymous valentine cards just put through the door addressed with a description of me (stalking????!!!!). Some men just do this, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with segregation, Men in the UK are not segregated and as I have explained, much worse happens, and it happens often.
There are women going to Egypt on holiday, for 'girls' holidays, working in bars, going nightclubbing, sunbathing on beaches, meeting men etc etc. Why are they going if they are getting so much 'unwanted attention'
You know, MANY women actually like the attention and react in exactly the same way the woman did in the video clip, is this not giving men mixed messages? Maybe he figures if he tries it on with 10 girls one of them might respond ok?
I'm not saying its right or trying to belittle peoples experiences, but it should be put in perspective, if women go there dressed in the stuff they wear back hom and then complain when men react in a way that is usual for their culture, what do they expect? And i'm not saying its only those women that are getting 'hassled' but when in rome people should really do as the romans do.
Other women in the world ignore whistles etc, why should it be any different in Egypt?
You agree its a safe place, you agree it doesnt lead to any physical contact, usually, so surely its manageable?
Mrs, I don't think it is being implied that this sort of thing never happens in other countries. I might ask you how often you have been in Egypt, and how long you have been there and if you have ever wandered around a larger city there alone and how often, veiled or not. I am quick to point out that harrassment happens everywhere, but it really is comparably larger in Egypt both to foreigners and natives. I'm not talking about a simple cat call, I'm talking about full on groping, in public, in plain view. We've all had experiences back home, of course. It would be one thing if it were only a whistle, but your mere reaction to this thread shows very clearly how little you've experienced Egypt without your husband at your side.
ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone. I'm not likely to either, after this thread because you ladies have made me so scared!
LOL, I really don't do it unless I absolutely have to, and it is hardly bad here where I am, but in the larger cities, phew!! Talk about exhausting!
I don't remember hearing about Painting the Town red and all of that - I can definitely see where some people could get themselves into trouble not understanding the culture and what to expect. I think caution is always best in any situation, even at home. Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Mrs, of course there are women out who like all the attention. But I would think if someone books a trip to Egypt it's not to get sexually harassed by male locals.
It's also a huge difference if you come as a visitor or you have to live in Egypt.
As a visitor you just stay for a short period of time, you might find the behaviour of the males amusing, you might respond, you might flirt back and that's it as you are leaving again.
But for someone who has to endure this day-in and day-out for years it can become a serious problem. Did you ever think what kind of psychological effects this bad behaviour of men can have on women who can't deal with the issue properly? I would not doubt that f.e. for many Egyptian and Western women it's an obstacle to open up every day their doors to leave to the outside knowing they gonna get hassled and will have to endure such degrading treatment.
Think about it. Seriously.
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Tigerlily, I said what I found offensive in my post. Some men may just be out to find a woman, and not harrass one. If a guy asks me out, then does not expect me to accept, but hopes that I will and I do, that is not wrong. There is nothing wrong with admiring someone and asking them for a date and hoping they will respond.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
quote:Originally posted by egyguy:
quote:Originally posted by ?????: Just sweep it under the carpet, Egyguy, just like majority of men is doing. For me it has to do with respect. If a man, and it doesn't matter which nationality he has, shows he has his brains behind his zipper instead as in his head, he won't get any respect from me. His speach is not guided by his intellegence but by his hormones. So, what can you expect from such a Neanderthaler?
I've tried it once, between Arabics, to act exactly the same as the men were doing. I rated the passing men, gave comments, wistled, made jokes about them to the Arabic woman next to me. At first she was a little scared, but later she joined me. The men were not amused, hehe. I asked them why they were ashamed of us, while we were doing exactly the same as they were doing, in OUR company while one was in a relationship with one of them... What: respect??? I asked them why this was sooooo unrespectable.... I gave them a mirror to look at theirselves. Not necessarry to add that this was an expierence that I could only make once...
I've mentioned that in a previous post. You're living in a male dominated society where males get to do as they like (mind you I say males not men, it takes a lot to be a man). The average maturity level - if there is such a measure - is sub zero. After all what do you expect from males living with their parents well into their 30s.
There is really nothing much you can do. All I can say is be alert and do understand that the majority are quite harmless - not men enough to act through.
Neither I nor anyone else can stop you complaining. Sympathize, sure! Good Luck!
The differences between being a MAN or just being MALE. You are right in that. In my opinion it is all in how they are raised. If the parents to teach them to respect a girl or a woman, if they accept behaviour like this, or even doing the same, what can you expect? If the father shows no respect to the mother, how would the sons grow up? They will start with showing no respect to their sisters, neices, or the girl next door... I cannot say that it is because of the separation during childhood, norms and values are brought in by the parents, the teachers at school, the religious people...
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
CFW, I never was invited on a date by a strange man here in Germany and I seriously doubt I would have take him up on his offer. This is just plain weird IMO! Then again I was never the typical flirty type and tried to gather attention on the street either.
And in Egypt the scenario is totally different. Many Egyptian guys would approach you as a Western woman because you are more 'easy-going' than your Egyptian counterparts or so at least they think. BUT always remember they would not want that their own sisters speak to some strange man on the street, accept a date and even jump into the car to them! This is just simple slutty behaviour in Egyptian eyes - and also in mine. Regardless to that you never know who you come across. You could be raped and even killed the next minute (just to widen out my thoughts here but it's possible).
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Mrs,
this is a moslem country therefore dating, whistling, cat calling, stopping in the street, are considered unislamic.
It is not considered what a decent male would do.
So you have 2 types. The ones who do and the ones who dont.
Any woman responding to a man who does in a culture and country that frowns upon it either is very naive or has no regard for the way she will be precieved by decent people here.
believe me if you respond to a guy in the street who does this, the more decent people who witness it will definitely have no respect for you.
Yes it happens everywhere. BUT the way it is percieved is completely different depending on where you are.
It is a big no no in Egypt to respond to a guy who approaches you in ANY way in an Egyptian street!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone.
Then you should stop telling women who have done so on a daily basis for years that it's just the same as walking a street in the UK or anywhere else ... or that we're somehow provoking or enjoying the harassment.
Why don't you go out and take some long walks over the next days, and then you come back and tell us your experiences?
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Harankash, The citizens of Egypt don't run the lives of every woman. So they need to just mind their business. If you want to accept a date, that is not wrong. Why do they get in everyone's business like that?
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Are you saying not to date at all, Tigerlily? How do you meet a man if you don't date some?
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: Are you saying not to date at all, Tigerlily? How do you meet a man if you don't date some?
I haven't mentioned that anywhere. But I would definitely not give attention to someone who literally tries to pick me up on the street. It's as simple as that.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by caringforwomen: Harankash, The citizens of Egypt don't run the lives of every woman. So they need to just mind their business. If you want to accept a date, that is not wrong. Why do they get in everyone's business like that?
CFW, have you been to Egypt before? As a tourist or foreigner for quite some time? Have you had much interaction with the locals during your stay?
Did you witness even once that above you just suggested among Egyptians?
Your idea of dating is plain not acceptable by Egyptian cultural standards. The clock is ticking way different there.
You know when you constantly have to endure males who come up to make a move on you - regardless if it's in a stupid way or not - you just pretty much get annoyed and frustrated and think "Oh no.... not again!!"
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sic Luceat Lux:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: To state that Islam is incapable of fostering ethical behavior in individuals is erroneous.
I never said that Islam was incapable of fostering ethnical behaviour. I said it was incapable of making people behave more ethnical.
You may think I'm quibbling, but there is a distinction.
Islam does prescribe many positive habits and behaviours to it's adherents, but whether these same adherents follow it is another matter entirely.
Thats what I was getting at. Religion can only prescribe; it cannot force or make people behave any differently than how they are already inclined however.
Case in point, there has been countless immoral acts committed under the banner of Islam throughout the centuries..
And Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, is considered by many to be amongst the most immoral and corrupt nations on the planet.
Where does it begin and where does it end?
quote:Egypt is also not the only nation that is ‘more Islamic’ today, other nations are also ‘more Islamic’ today including the vast majority of Arab states.
Indeed, but my point in raising this, was that despite Egypt's greater religious status today, the sexual harassment problem has only become worse. It has not improved at all by most accounts.
quote:Yet this hideous behavior is practically more or less an Egyptian phenomenon. I once thought that poverty played a major role but I do not longer feel this way because there are other Muslim nations that suffer worse poverty yet their males don’t exhibit such vile behavior as Egyptian males.
Hmmm I'm not so sure Egypt is the only Arab nation where this behaviour is commonplace. It is the worst in this regard perhaps, but not the only one I think.
I remember when I was in Kuwait many years ago, myself, another guy and three western women went downtown to do some shopping and sight seeing. One of the females was blonde haired and blue eyed, and the other two were brunettes. None of them were what I'd call hot or gorgeous, but they were fairly attractive.
With that said, the local men had more than a passing interest in them. They followed us throughout the bazaar, and even when we were in our vehicle, they would bang on the windows and proclaim their love for these foreign women..
Some guys even asked for their hand in marriage by saying,"I marry you!"
More telling than asking, but you get the point
Then we went jet skiing in Kuwait harbor, and the other guy managed to capsize the jet ski he was on by doing fancy tricks with it.
Then for compensation, the guy who ran the jet ski operation wanted us to SELL one of the females to him
quote:Suggesting western ideals such as desegregation of the sexes is a silly notion given the fact that Egypt is 90% Muslim and 50% illiterate.
If Egypt had less sexual harassment a few decades ago when it was more secular than religious, what does this say?
quote:Most muslim nations are in fact segregated yet this harassment phenomena does not exists in those nations. Neither segregation nor economic hardships are excuses in other Muslim nations and they shouldn’t be excuses for the way Egyptian males are behaving.
It all depends on the level of segregation. Saudi Arabia being the most segregated, while Lebanon perhaps being the least.
Egypt seems to be somewhere in the middle.
Like I said earlier though, it's a complex problem with many underlying factors not easily addressed.
~Alistair
The actions of these men are unislamic and what stands out here is the violation of other humans unlike individual sin or self-transgression. What I’m getting at here is that it is the responsibility of Muslim authorities to address these violations that affect women. Now while it is true that Islam can not change a person from within, it can however address the matter and it can bring about consequences to such actions. If the so called scholars of Al-Azhar were to uniformly condemn sexual harassment in addition to lobbying stricter laws for such violations then I believe we would see positive results. So they can start behaving Islamically willingly and if not then Islam is obligated to take action if not. Again their actions violate and disrespect the rights of others and Islam is a solution. Shaming them Islamically will work in addition to penalizing the harrasers. Merely enacting laws will be probably be dismissed in the same manner as traffic laws are dismissed and ignored.
I am sometimes annoyed when I read such comments(Egypt is more Islamic today) because yes Egypt is more Islamic even if appearance wise but the ill behavior has also increased. There is more sexual activity, there is more corruption, there is more of everything negative and good. To lay blame on Islam shows biasness, and many claim “oh, look how liberal Egypt was in the 60’s, the women wore what they wanted on TV and so on”. During those years practically no one owned a TV and the farmers and people from upper Egypt were not represented at all. Egypt today has the appearance of being more Islamic and Masha Allah the divide is obvious now and from this divide the non-Islamic behavior is apparent. Keep in mind tourism and telecommunication in Egypt has greatly increased over the last decade hence we read and hear about everything.
So much of what we read about now is the product of cheap westernization of feeble minds. Egyptian males acting in such way are pathetically lost in mannerism; they are deducing ideas and notions from unrealistic conclusions. I once invited an Egyptian guy to join me, and a couple of female friends for dinner. After the dinner he concluded that I was sleeping with both of them and asked me to take them back to my apartment so we can have sex with them. I laughed at him, thinking he was joking but a week or so later I called one of them from his mobile phone only to have him save the number and call them the next day. He told them that I was waiting for them at such and such restaurant, when in fact I wasn’t. He and his cousin waited for them at such and such restaurant and lets just say he made a complete fool of himself. This is one story but there are many more where Egyptian men, even educated ones have this notion that women who wear such and such and go out on dates are engaging in promiscuous sex and willing with anyone!
Islam did not instill these ideas, these ideas are new and if we are to blame Islam then how come they were not present before? Or in other Muslim nations? I think they get their notions from what they perceive is modern life for women who are - shall I say more independent.
I have traveled to several Arab countries, some of which I spent more than 3 months in and couple in which I am/was an expat and not a tourist. And I can confidently assert that such behavior exhibited by Egyptian males is not the case in those nations. Self worth seems to be missing from these Egyptian males and I think it is at a point where it is habitual now and I am not kidding. I mean how else could one explain that men honk their horns every time they see women’s hair or an exceptional derriere? And the thing is they don’t even stop but rather honk followed by looking in the rear view mirror. I even confronted someone about this and after doing so he did it nonchalantly again. It is just weird – these men despite their level of education have a very distorted concept of reality.
I think Egypt is in a no win situation and it surely can not please everyone. I for one have left it behind after I thought it would be my permanent home. The nations of the world are progressing yet Egypt continues in decline and retardation. It is problematic and personally, life is too short to live in a society that won’t act for its own benefit. The expats here are a mere irrelevant 1% of the Egyptian population and what they say and what they do is vacuous save the online bitching on ES.
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
No, Tigerlily, I have not been to egypt, ever. In my very first post, I was not saying that if a guy on the street in a pick-up truck asked me out that, that moment, that I would accept, just that him asking was not wrong. If you have sex with every tom, dick, and harry that you come across, that is slutty. However, meeting a guy at work, talking to him for a few weeks, then going on a date, I don't see that as slutty. I am not arguing with you, just stating my point.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
CFW you cannot compare it to anything like your own country, its not the same in any way at all.
Having the odd workman whistle at you in UK is nothing compared to 99% of Egyptian men you pass eiher commenting at you or tying to pick you up. I regularly walk through the souk here, the majority know I live here, but I still get it 'Hey you look Egyptian' or 'Hi Blondey' if my friend is with me, and I get wayyyyyyyyyyyyy less hassle than most do!
Here if you walk down any street and make any sort of eye contact, even for a split second, its taken as a come on, they think they have a chance even if you say you are married! If they say hello and you reply you are stuffed, you cant get rid without being rude, and its not in my nature to be rude if someone speaks to me so its been hard to adapt to that way.
Only once I can remember I had a huge row near the corniche. I was fully covered as always, this guy tried to ask if I wanted a felucca, I ignored him, he followed me saying 'excuse me, excuse me' which you would think is nothing, but if I stop and chat with him the whole of Luxor will know about it in seconds. I turned round and said in Arabic I was married, he carried on trying to talk to me. I then started shouting in English that he wouldnt hassle an Egyptian woman this way so what gave him the idea he could hassle me when I obviously didnt want a damn felucca or to speak with him. I told him this was haram and leave me alone, he backed off and apologized. The best thing to do is to ignore it and walk on but it does get bloody tiring!
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
Exiled now correct me if I am wrong but I put a few points of what you said to my moslem Egyptian husband.
Q) is it considered right in Islam for a married man to sit in the company of females in the absence of his wife in public who are not of his family for the purpose of pleasure ie not work or business.
A) No
Q) is it acceptable for a married Moslem to be in nightclubs drinking alcohol with women whilst the moslem wife is at home.
A) No, alcohol is forbidden and why would a married man be in a nightclub.
Q) is is acceptable for a married moslem man to sit close enough to a woman who is not his wife and not related in a cafe or nightclub?
A) definitely not. He is not allowed to touch another female not of his family and reluctantly shake a hand of those who are not. He said that decent moslem women rarely offer their hands with the exception of westerners as that is their culture to shake hands.
Yes I can agree with you in that Al Azhar should be tackling this problem but what have they been doing all these centuries if not just that?
Al Azhar is in Cairo Egypt, the place where it is most prevalent, the place where they all come to study from all over the world. What are they teaching if not respect for women?
What are the Imams teaching on Fridays? Why dont they encourage women to listen to the Khutbah! Why are the wives left at home doing laundry, whilst the men go to the Friday prayers then the cafe to leer afterwards or wander the malls, then the nightclub alone after having dinner with the wife to meet up with female friends?
so if you want to talk Islamic then what he is saying must be the way Islam says it should be?
I dont agree or disagree with it. I think segregation is wrong, but I have to say that I have complete confidence in him as a husband, I trust him 100%, I have never doubted him, he always puts my interest before his own, he is totally respectful of women and their privacy and reputations, he never sits in cafes with his friends except maybe once for an hour every 6 months to catch up. When we visit male and female friends we are together. Members here can verify. So maybe there is something in it????
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Ayisha, I think you should be able to have an innocent conversation with someone without them taking it the wrong way in egypt. I know it is not like Texas, but still, for them to make assumion like that is wrong.
Posted by harankash (Member # 14248) on :
CFW
edit
It is impossible.
There are certain types of men here.
Good decent men who respect women who are in the minority. The rest who think that it is their right to stop you in the street, ask for sex, your name, all that bullshit.
If any man stopped me in the street in any other country apart from the middle east I would stop and see what they wanted. That is how we are raised. It is as Ayisha said rude not to.
NOT here! it is a signal to him that you are available for sex. Decent local women here do NOT!!! repeat NOT!! answer a man who stands on a corner or sits in a cafe if he tries to attract her attention full stop.
There are decent men here like Vanilla, Amr, Vader, etc that are in the minority. What you may deduce from an online persona is not always what you get in person. Too many people here make that mistake. They think they know someone but they could be quite shocked when they meet them in person both in a good and bad way.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
CFW, Harankash is right it is impossible here. Men here have the mentality that NO woman can be without a man, that ALL western woman are here for sex and will go with anyone, that also includes western men too. If you answer and chat you are saying 'I am available for sex' and thats how it is here. I only reply to someone or greet them if I KNOW them either through my husband or my friends or business, but even my husbands friends I would not accept a ride home with as the gossip would have me sleeping with him and his donkey!!
I have a male friend here, English guy been here 2 years and speaks fluent Arabic, we often shop togeher or eat together, he's my bodyguard and my husband is quite ok with me being seen with any European male here and he knows this friend of mine very well. Often when the taxi drops me off first my male friend is propositioned by the taxi drivers on his way home! They put on the front for me being a Muslimah but as soon as im out the way it starts. You have to have well known taxi drivers here or that is becoming the norm.
Saying all this it IS SAFER here than back home. Shareen and I have been finding our way around here a few times and taking out of the way streets to see whats down there or where it leads. The other night we were going down a dark street and there was about 6 youths in front of us, I said 'you couldnt to this back home and feel safe could you?' and we were SAFE, we got no hassle, but that was a back street where the ordinary tourist wouldnt go anyway. The worst hassle is on the corniche and the souk here, the rest is not so bad. Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash:
Exiled now correct me if I am wrong but I put a few points of what you said to my moslem Egyptian husband.
Q) is it considered right in Islam for a married man to sit in the company of females in the absence of his wife in public who are not of his family for the purpose of pleasure ie not work or business.
A) No
Q) is it acceptable for a married Moslem to be in nightclubs drinking alcohol with women whilst the moslem wife is at home.
A) No, alcohol is forbidden and why would a married man be in a nightclub.
Q) is is acceptable for a married moslem man to sit close enough to a woman who is not his wife and not related in a cafe or nightclub?
A) definitely not. He is not allowed to touch another female not of his family and reluctantly shake a hand of those who are not. He said that decent moslem women rarely offer their hands with the exception of westerners as that is their culture to shake hands.
Alcohol is explicitly forbidden in Islam and I don’t think there is any kind of controversy in this regard. The teachings and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(saw) also forbids the mingling of sexes. I am not sure what some other sects that deviate from the sunnah believe in this regard considering that such mingling is not stated in the Quran and possibly similarly to the hijab where the Sunnah deems it obligatory yet Quranists contend otherwise.
Yes I can agree with you in that Al Azhar should be tackling this problem but what have they been doing all these centuries if not just that?
Epidemic sexual harassment is more or less a recent phenomenon as is the explosion in population and the massive migration to urban areas. Keep in mind that cities have seen a huge influx of males from the countryside, many of whom migrated alone seeking better jobs and in the process attained more freedoms to do as they please and wish. 30 years ago life was so much simpler and without the ideas that many people put in their minds however delusional. Al-Azhar needs to act now and to do so they need female voices to ascertain that action is taken.
What are the Imams teaching on Fridays? Why dont they encourage women to listen to the Khutbah! Why are the wives left at home doing laundry, whilst the men go to the Friday prayers then the cafe to leer afterwards or wander the malls, then the nightclub alone after having dinner with the wife to meet up with female friends?
I obliged in answering the beginning of your post which was off topic and irrelevant to sexual harassment but doing again would expend my courtesy.
I dont agree or disagree with it. I think segregation is wrong, but I have to say that I have complete confidence in him as a husband, I trust him 100%, I have never doubted him, he always puts my interest before his own, he is totally respectful of women and their privacy and reputations, he never sits in cafes with his friends except maybe once for an hour every 6 months to catch up. When we visit male and female friends we are together. Members here can verify. So maybe there is something in it????
Individual praise is irrelevant because we are talking about a society that is 90% muslim and 50% illiterate. What any individual personally feels of the merits of one individual can not be used as an argument to suggest similar behavior is possible in a general sense. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: I am not sure what some other sects that deviate from the sunnah believe in this regard considering that such mingling is not stated in the Quran and possibly similarly to the hijab where the Sunnah deems it obligatory yet Quranists contend otherwise.
It's not only *Qur'anists* who conclude that it's not obligatory. Since all the ahadeeth which "prove" that covering the head is obligatory are weak, there are also Sunni scholars and Sunni Muslims who don't regard covering the head as an obligation at all.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: The teachings and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(saw) also forbids the mingling of sexes.
Al-Azhar needs to act now and to do so they need female voices to ascertain that action is taken.
If mingling of the sexes is forbidden who are these female voices going to be talking to if not just women? Its the men that need sorting out. Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: The teachings and Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad(saw) also forbids the mingling of sexes.
Al-Azhar needs to act now and to do so they need female voices to ascertain that action is taken.
If mingling of the sexes is forbidden who are these female voices going to be talking to if not just women? Its the men that need sorting out.
This is actually very simple and is practiced in Islamic institutions. Men and women for example partake in debate with women sitting on one side of the assembly and the males in the other. Each is free to express their ideas at the podium. It wouldn’t take too much of an effort to create a department in Al-Azhar that deals with such instances that violate the rights of women. Females joining the police force could also work from task forces that deal with such crimes like sexual harassment. And also to prevent sexual harassment by having them noticeably positioned in areas such as train stations, malls, major streets and also undercover on buses and so on.
All of this is possible, we just need Egyptian women to speak up en masse. And if they don't then no body will do it for them.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
Dunes, please tell me you didn't just expound on the "benefits" of segregation.
Posted by Exiled (Member # 14410) on :
quote:Originally posted by VanillaBullshit: Dunes, please tell me you didn't just expound on the "benefits" of segregation.
I think I would need to undertake a lot more research to achieve such. And what I emphasize and defend in this discussion is what I believe the majority of Egyptians want and what I honestly believe is achievable. Personally I could never live in an Islamic governed state because such does not adhere with the way I live my life(freely). But we are not talking about me, you or any individual for that matter. If Egypt were to have fair and free elections, it would mark a new dawn of Islamic governance. My proposals such as instituting female Islamic scholars and female police officers to combat sexual harassment could exist in the present government and could also continue to exist if an Islamic government takes over. I honestly believe empowering women in this regard is achievable. But some of you are talking about western ideals at a time when such is impossible. Again it is not about what any individual desires, it is about what the masses desire. We must sacrifice our ideals to give the people what they want. I think the segregated malls will increase as will the mosques and keep in mind there was 1 mosque for 7600 people 15 years ago and now it is 1 mosque for every 715 people. The road is islamic all the way yet many Egyptian men are behaving vile and the way to deal with this is with what i have proposed.
Female Muslim Scholars Female Police Officers
Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: ok, point taken, you are right, i've never walked the streets alone.
Then you should stop telling women who have done so on a daily basis for years that it's just the same as walking a street in the UK or anywhere else ... or that we're somehow provoking or enjoying the harassment.
Why don't you go out and take some long walks over the next days, and then you come back and tell us your experiences?
Ok Dalia, Keep your hair on, I didnt mean to offend you - I just thought that knowing how popular Egypt and Egyptian men are with the western ladies, and the volume of female tourists, If it is a bad as you all say, how and why would they bother going?? But if you say I'm wrong, I accept that, I believe you
Tigerlilly - I agree, you made some good points and yes it must be awful for those women who have to endure it daily (and I'm not being sarcastic) I really didnt think it could be as bad as you all say, but it obviously is.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: Ok Dalia, Keep your hair on, I didnt mean to offend you - I just thought that knowing how popular Egypt and Egyptian men are with the western ladies, and the volume of female tourists, If it is a bad as you all say, how and why would they bother going?? But if you say I'm wrong, I accept that, I believe you
You didn't offend me. I just found it strange that the few people in this thread denying the observations of most of the women here, have never experienced it themselves because they are either not female, haven't been out of Egypt (so they think it's normal), or haven't spent time in Egypt on their own.
As for female tourists getting involved with Egyptians in the resorts -- now I think that's a different issue and does not have a lot of impact on how people in Cairo or Alex behave.
For example ... you always read stories on here about how people get involved with waiters, tour guides etc. which happens because they are not aware of many things about Egyptian society, for example the class system. But if you're a woman living in Cairo it is very unlikely that a waiter in a restaurant, a taxi driver or a papyrus seller would try to make a serious pass on you. It would be considered highly inappropriate in Egyptian society, and he would know that a woman who has lived here for a while is well aware of that.
Hope that makes sense. Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: But if you're a woman living in Cairo it is very unlikely that a waiter in a restaurant, a taxi driver or a papyrus seller would try to make a serious pass on you. It would be considered highly inappropriate in Egyptian society, and he would know that a woman who has lived here for a while is well aware of that.
Come on, Dalia*, they all try!!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
No, they don't, at least in my experience and those of my friends. Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Yes they do!! I had taxi drivers, waiters, fruit & vegetable sellers, people in animation (oh forgot security guys at hotels etc. trying to hook up with me - especially when they heard I am from Germany.
I would not say I was ugly back then, I was very young (20 when I came to Egypt) and single - bad combination and an easy target for these guys!!
And the problem persisted throughout my three years in Cairo. I will not forget when I started dating my now-husband and we agreed that he would come join me and my mother few days later at the hotel in Hurghada (because of work related reasons he couldn't take of the same time). Anyway I was treated like a little queen when arriving at the new resort (hence I knew the guy from the hotel chain where I booked the trip). When I checked in the guy at the reception tried to make a move on me, he even called me at my room two times and I told him each time I can't meet him for a drink because I am not single. He went on how nice I am and that he loves Germany blah-blah...
You should have seen how he treated my husband upon arrival. It was so ridiculous!! Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
I'm sorry to hear that, Tiger. But as you said in your post, you were very young and inexperienced, and I assume you didn't speak Arabic yet back then; so you were an easy target.
Posted by ExptinCAI (Member # 1439) on :
Tiger, Dalia also said IN A CITY LIKE ALEX OR CAIRO...not a resort. I've never had any waiter or taxi driver try to hit on me in Cairo. It's about how you carry yourself and making it obvious you live there. I don't even get bothered in hotels, because the staff either thinks I'm a local, or I'm there on business and it's not my first time.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Of course I was in the beginning friendly to everybody - because everybody was friendly to me -but I ended up after a certain time only to greet the people incl. men I knew and mostly walked around with sunglasses on and tried to pretend to be air. I had huge problems on the street.
Maybe one of you remembers an incident I wrote about here before when I walked in broad daylight one afternoon on Shehab St. (I checked out the stores) and had to tie my shoe. I remember it was still very hot and not many people outside. I didn't sit down and made sure no one was around me. What happened was a young guy touched me from the back between my legs and run off!! This happened to me the first few months living in Cairo.
Posted by cloudberry (Member # 11163) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: CFW you cannot compare it to anything like your own country, its not the same in any way at all.
Having the odd workman whistle at you in UK is nothing compared to 99% of Egyptian men you pass eiher commenting at you or tying to pick you up. I regularly walk through the souk here, the majority know I live here, but I still get it 'Hey you look Egyptian' or 'Hi Blondey' if my friend is with me, and I get wayyyyyyyyyyyyy less hassle than most do!
Here if you walk down any street and make any sort of eye contact, even for a split second, its taken as a come on, they think they have a chance even if you say you are married! If they say hello and you reply you are stuffed, you cant get rid without being rude, and its not in my nature to be rude if someone speaks to me so its been hard to adapt to that way.
Only once I can remember I had a huge row near the corniche. I was fully covered as always, this guy tried to ask if I wanted a felucca, I ignored him, he followed me saying 'excuse me, excuse me' which you would think is nothing, but if I stop and chat with him the whole of Luxor will know about it in seconds. I turned round and said in Arabic I was married, he carried on trying to talk to me. I then started shouting in English that he wouldnt hassle an Egyptian woman this way so what gave him the idea he could hassle me when I obviously didnt want a damn felucca or to speak with him. I told him this was haram and leave me alone, he backed off and apologized. The best thing to do is to ignore it and walk on but it does get bloody tiring!
So true (at least in Luxor). The best way really is to ignore, not to say anything, not to even look. If I walk alone I always listen to music because I don't even want to hear some of the comments, they just ruin my day even though I know I should not care. I don't mind so much those "welcome" or "hello" but many, especially calesh guys throw comments about your body. As I live here I do not even walk out half naked!
Couple of times I got really mad and shouted something, but idiots will be idiots, they just can shout bad things back at you. Only few are surprised and stay silent. Some might apologize if it’s a very public place and many people around but I doubt they mean it. But I decided it’s best way not to say anything. When I walk alone (without a girlfriend) it seems I can walk in peace.
Sometimes I feel like I could stay indoors a whole week (once I did), I am so tired of this bullshit. Already as a tourist I stopped using motorboats because these guys are truly horrible.
If you say something so simple than “hello” to someone you find yourself trying to get rid of him the next two kilometres! Like Ayisha, I just talk to people we know (our taxi drivers etc) but would not ever never go have a coffee with them or anything.
It is different for tourists. I found all this well manageable when visiting Luxor but why not – you know you can go home and get out. It’s so different if you want to live here. Some people (obviously not living here) say, well why don’t you just say something politely, maybe chat a little and be friendly to them, then it will be fine. Ha!
It feels rude to say nothing since we are raised to reply if someone wishes you “good morning” etc. Here some shopkeepers can actually run after you asking a million times why don’t you respect him and say “hello”...just annoying.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Maybe one of you remembers an incident I wrote about here before when I walked in broad daylight one afternoon on Shehab St. (I checked out the stores) and had to tie my shoe. I remember it was still very hot and not many people outside. I didn't sit down and made sure no one was around me. What happened was a young guy touched me from the back between my legs and run off!! This happened to me the first few months living in Cairo.
I had some young boy grab my breast while passing by on a bicycle, also in a very upscale part of Mohandessen. He was lucky he was on a bike ...
Another time a guy came up from behind and grabbed my butt; he was beaten up by a couple of other guys who had watched the scene. Actually, that was the only time someone interfered when I was being harassed.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: I would not say I was ugly back then, I was very young
I saw your picture from when you were older than that and I thought you were very pretty.
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: I had taxi drivers, waiters, fruit & vegetable sellers, people in animation (oh forgot security guys at hotels etc. trying to hook up with me - especially when they heard I am from Germany.
... He went on how nice I am and that he loves Germany blah-blah...
During my first couple of years here it used to seriously confuse me when people told me how they liked Germany. I felt it was weird and superficial because actually they didn't know anything about Germany at all.
But now I just take those remarks as an attempt to be friendly and I often reply in a joking manner, referring to the German soccer team or whatever. I tell them that I love Cairo, that the weather is great in Egypt and that I find Egyptian girls beautiful. And when a taxi driver tells me he hopes I'll find an Egyptian husband soon insha'allah, I just reply yes, I hope so, insha'allah. Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
<people in animation>
What exactly are this people?Animating what,TL?
Posted by Oldbag (Member # 9889) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: <people in animation>
What exactly are this people?Animating what,TL?
Animators - I think it is those people who work in the 5* or 4* hotels making guests play volleyball and the like.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: I had some young boy grab my breast while passing by on a bicycle, also in a very upscale part of Mohandessen. He was lucky he was on a bike ...
Another time a guy came up from behind and grabbed my butt; he was beaten up by a couple of other guys who had watched the scene. Actually, that was the only time someone interfered when I was being harassed.
Yes I wish other people - especially men - would interfere way more often if women get harassed on the street by other guys.
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: And when a taxi driver tells me he hopes I'll find an Egyptian husband soon insha'allah, I just reply yes, I hope so, insha'allah.
Insha'allah, Dalia*, insha'allah!! Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oldbag:
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: <people in animation>
What exactly are this people?Animating what,TL?
Animators - I think it is those people who work in the 5* or 4* hotels making guests play volleyball and the like.
Correct, Oldbag. These people can be really pesty!!
Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
It does sound like you have all had some really bad experiences and I'm sorry that I was sceptical at first. Truly I am. I am interested as to whether this happens to muslim women in hijab, Egyptian or western women and whether clothing or ethnicity has anything to do with it? Also, do the men do it mostly in areas like the markets/shops etc, when they are in groups or when they are alone? AND finally, does it happen more when you are alone or with other girls? what about if you are with an older Egyptian woman, would they still do it?
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
It has never happened to me when I am with my husband, but I was wearing abaya with hijab one day when a guy rode past me (riding the same direction as I was walking) and he reached out and grabbed my butt as he passed me and kept going~
Pervert. Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: I am interested as to whether this happens to muslim women in hijab, Egyptian or western women and whether clothing or ethnicity has anything to do with it?
Of course it happens to women in hijab. If you take a look at the article I posted earlier on, you can see that basically all women in Egypt get harassed, although about 90% of them are covering their head. It does not matter what you wear.
IMO Western women get more harassment because many people have weird misconceptions about us. It has often happened to me that there were Egyptian girls around me, yet I was the one getting harassed.
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: Also, do the men do it mostly in areas like the markets/shops etc, when they are in groups or when they are alone? AND finally, does it happen more when you are alone or with other girls?
They do it in all areas, on the streets, in stores, malls, in front of mosques, in groups or on their own. To me, it happens more when I am with other women. For example, I mentioned before that I don't get much harassment in downtown. But one day I was walking there with a group of German friends (all veiled) and we couldn't even walk a few steps without people throwing comments at us.
Those are my experiences, others might differ ...
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Rigorous codes, heinous crimes
As rape and sexual harassment become staples of public debate, Serene Assir tunes in to street attitudes towards two disconcerting phenomena
A few weeks after Dar Al-Ifta's issuing of a fatwa (edict) ruling that Islam sanctions abortions for female rape victims, the public debate that was unleashed over the case of Hend Mohamed, an 11-year-old who gave birth in 2006 has only grown murkier. To begin with, the public was united in sympathy with Mohamed; that is before DNA tests proved the man she had accused of raping her was innocent.
Meanwhile, the fatwa, issued on the back of escalating efforts by MPs seeking to implement into law the right to abort in rape cases, has injected new life into the debate. The fatwa, according to Sheikh Emad Effat of Dar Al-Ifta, "is by no means intended to solve the problem of rape, but rather to help female victims." In other words, the decision to allow abortion up until the 120th day of a rape victim's pregnancy emerges as a response both to a growing sensibility towards the rights of victims and to a mounting conviction in the proliferation of what has been termed in countless opinion columns and radio and television shows over recent years in Egypt as fawda akhlaqiya, or moral chaos. "We need to make sure that the victim does not live in shame," Effat added in an interview with Al-Ahram Weekly. "As for rape itself, much more needs to be done before we can see an improvement in the country's current record."
According to the Cairo-based Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights (ECWR), at least 20,000 women are raped in Egypt every year. In line with global findings, the vast majority of rape victims know their attackers, who are usually relatives. "Very often, particularly in poor urban or urbanising areas, where poverty is rife, families of eight or 10 will share a single room," coordinator for ECWR's programme on sexual harassment, Engy Ghozlan, told the Weekly. "Such living conditions, combined with the increasing economic difficulties that are preventing marriage, are attributed by some as being factors towards the incidence of rape. In addition, street attacks are continuing to happen, creating fear amongst some women from going about their daily lives alone."
To Effat, the roots of the problem run deeper. "A social transformation is taking place in Egypt under the influences of globalisation," he said. "Violence has grown, as has alienation. People are growing lost amidst the crumbling of a society traditionally based on collectivism." But also in line with global trends, although reported cases of rape are far outnumbered by those that never involve the state, the fact that sexual crimes are now more openly discussed in the media and, of course, the blogosphere begs the question as to whether rape really is on the rise, or whether we are now just hearing more about it. "Thirty years ago," said Ghozlan, "a girl in trouble would receive instant help, thereby not necessitating the intervention of the state. Maybe the difference is that now people turn their attention away and behave in a more isolated way. Perhaps it is because of this that only when the worst has happened does the public outcry occur."
Ever since the subject of sexual harassment was thrown into the glare of publicity by incidents of police involvement in harassment during a demonstration held on 25 May 2005 and of public indifference towards harassment during Eid Al-Adha festivities in 2006, coverage by the independent media and intensified efforts by a small number of highly active NGOs have led to the establishment of a more open debate. "That has led to a stronger public consciousness of the phenomenon," said Ghozlan. "But that doesn't mean harassment is by any means decreasing." Indeed, according to long-time Cairo resident Nadia, "harassment is constant and is done in a variety of ways. Essentially, whatever it is, whether it is a stare, a sexual comment, groping or even exhibitionism, I am left with the feeling that there is nothing I can do about a man's behaviour towards me. This is not a good feeling to begin or end your day with."
Meanwhile, according to a group of four young men sipping late-night tea and playing dominos at a Cairo café, "if I'm in my car and I am following a girl who is dressed in a suggestive way, I am doing exactly what she wants me to do," said 33-year-old Ahmed. "On more than one occasion, I have developed a relationship with a girl I have picked up off the street. So we try, and sometimes, it works." Ahmed's friend Hossam, aged 31, acquiesces that it was " haram" (forbidden) to behave in such a way. "But it's not only us -- the women participate. Why, I have picked up women who wear the khemar [long veil covering up to the waist] before. People aren't thinking about what's right and what's wrong, but rather about what they can get away with. And believe me, even though many of us won't talk openly about it, we get away with a lot."
It is, of course, no secret that beneath the strict moral code that has traditionally been associated with public conduct in Egypt, there exist all types of obsessive human behaviour rooted in repressed sexuality. Perhaps genuine efforts at addressing harassment ought to deal more with reality, thereby easing the current growing mistrust and misunderstanding between genders. A case in point: while Ahmed vehemently believes that "girls like to be followed," Nadia expresses genuine fear of and anger at such male behaviour.
ECWR's Ghozlan is of the opinion that society is changing rapidly. "There are so many different trends people don't know what to believe anymore," she said. "While in some neighbourhoods, a certain dress code will be a signal to men that a woman is out of bounds, in another she will attract attention. There is no longer a safe method of identification."
Left with this prospect, perhaps the only real way forward now is to keep bringing the issue out into the open to encourage a constant stream of public discussion and exchange of views.
Its weird though isn't it, In a country that is 'concerned' at the increase of Islam, and trying to fight against it, the un islamic behaviour displayed is the complete opposite of what is reported to be happening??
What were the men like in the 1960's when Egypt was more westernized? Did they do it then?
Your article highlighted my point earlier Dalia, that if some women are responding to such behaviour, some men will continue to try their luck.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs: It does sound like you have all had some really bad experiences and I'm sorry that I was sceptical at first. Truly I am. I am interested as to whether this happens to muslim women in hijab, Egyptian or western women and whether clothing or ethnicity has anything to do with it? Also, do the men do it mostly in areas like the markets/shops etc, when they are in groups or when they are alone? AND finally, does it happen more when you are alone or with other girls? what about if you are with an older Egyptian woman, would they still do it?
Nooo,it has happened to almost every woman either living or visiting Egypt. For the quazillion time i will repeat that i was butt slapped while walking around Tahrir Square in very modest clothes:long sleeved loose tunic top down to my knees over jeans. Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Everywoman meets the women fighting for their rights to live free from harassment on the streets of Cairo.
in the 60's etc there was no harassment according to 7ayat an egyptian here.
They wore western clothing and lived western lives in Cairo. Drank alcohol, women smoked, wore the latest western fashions. No problems it seems.
Covering up and getting all pseudo islamic has heightened sexual tensions and this has led to rape and harassment of women today.
Men want to 'know and touch' what is under the cloak ans unfortunately in Cairo this is without the womans permission.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: in the 60's etc there was no harassment according to 7ayat an egyptian here.
They wore western clothing and lived western lives in Cairo. Drank alcohol, women smoked, wore the latest western fashions. No problems it seems.
Many friends have told me that their mothers had no problems with harassment when they were young.
Posted by newcomer (Member # 1056) on :
quote:Originally posted by harankash: Covering up and getting all pseudo islamic has heightened sexual tensions and this has led to rape and harassment of women today.
If that was the only thing that had changed in Egypt since the 60s then your argument might be sound, as it is it neglects all the other things that have happened since then, such as: 27 years of a state of emergency, lack of freedom of speech, increased materialism, increased expectations from university education followed by increased unemployment, more exposure to the outside world and different values through the internet and satellite tv, increased access to sexually stimulating images, difficulty in getting married due to increased materialism coupled with decreased economic power, etc. etc.
The reactions to all those changes have been increases in both the extremities: an increase in westernised material lifestyle (especially amongst the 5% of the population who hold most of the wealth) and an increase in religious adherence and religious symbolism by both rich and poor. And in the middle, there is a whole mass of people who are frustrated (and not just sexually) who are unable to release their frustrations in meaningful ways, and so many of them resort to antisocial behaviours, harrassment of women being just one of them.
It's not a reaction to increased religious clothing - if it was it would be seen all over the Muslim world as this is not an Egypt-related phenomena, it's a world-wide change - it's just another symptom that has come as a result of all the other factors that have changed in this country since the 60s.
Posted by caringforwomen (Member # 14617) on :
Even if the women cover up and the sexual tensions raise in Egypt, that is not a reason to harrass the women. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
well I have a complaint
This evening I went to the West Bank to meet my husband, he said meet me in the playground. I know the playground well, but at night the only lighting is floodlights on the pitch, only one was on as there was no match. When I arrived I couldnt see him as it was dark. I know his shape in the dark but he was not there. I called, he said he would be 5 minutes So I sat on a bench and waited. There were a few groups of Egyptian men drinking tea and a few walking around. 15 minutes passed and I thought I must look like a hooker sitting there on a bench in the dark all alone!!!
NOT ONE!!
I complained to hubby for leaving me there 15 minutes looking like a prostitute and NO BUSINESSS, not even ONE Posted by MICKY A (Member # 11209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: well I have a complaint
This evening I went to the West Bank to meet my husband, he said meet me in the playground. I know the playground well, but at night the only lighting is floodlights on the pitch, only one was on as there was no match. When I arrived I couldnt see him as it was dark. I know his shape in the dark but he was not there. I called, he said he would be 5 minutes So I sat on a bench and waited. There were a few groups of Egyptian men drinking tea and a few walking around. 15 minutes passed and I thought I must look like a hooker sitting there on a bench in the dark all alone!!!
NOT ONE!!
I complained to hubby for leaving me there 15 minutes looking like a prostitute and NO BUSINESSS, not even ONE
not even 1 Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by MICKY A:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: well I have a complaint
This evening I went to the West Bank to meet my husband, he said meet me in the playground. I know the playground well, but at night the only lighting is floodlights on the pitch, only one was on as there was no match. When I arrived I couldnt see him as it was dark. I know his shape in the dark but he was not there. I called, he said he would be 5 minutes So I sat on a bench and waited. There were a few groups of Egyptian men drinking tea and a few walking around. 15 minutes passed and I thought I must look like a hooker sitting there on a bench in the dark all alone!!!
NOT ONE!!
I complained to hubby for leaving me there 15 minutes looking like a prostitute and NO BUSINESSS, not even ONE
not even 1
Micky not even a 'hello' 'salam ya haja' nothing!! and it was dark, I could have been a right young dolly under this hijab and NOTHING! Posted by MICKY A (Member # 11209) on :
the men there must have been gay then Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by MICKY A: the men there must have been gay then
That has to be the explanation Micky Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Yeah, Ayisha, those da*n Egyptian 15 minutes!! Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
LOL @ Ayisha, you haven't heard 'hello Englischhh, sexy sexy bosa!'??? Posted by Mrs (Member # 14656) on :
Well Ayisha, that proves one thing to me.
Egyptian men read Egyptsearch afterall, you girls have scared them off finally Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
That's one possibility!! Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Smucks, often but not last night when I was sat alone
Mrs, this is West Bank we're talking about, probably 70% illiterate in Arabic never mind English
Hubby kinda burst my bubble a bit when I complained to him about it, he said 'but they all know you my wife' Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Yup, they showed respect for you! They knew if they would start harassing you they'd get the bill later from your husband!! Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
Just came across this post regarding harassment in Saudi Arabia on a blog I sometimes read ...
Name and Shame
I propose a website, called "Aayb Alayk" (Shame on You), which would name and shame the Kingdom's bad boys.
Ladies, next time you’re receiving unwanted attention, whip out those mobiles and start filming them in action. Extra points will be given if license plates are clearly displayed in the film or if the culprits give their names. We can then upload these incriminating videos to the Aayb Alayk page.Any type of bad behavior can be filmed as long as its done in the public sphere; stunt driving in traffic as well as flirting are just a few of the possibilities.
Why should we let them get away with chasing us at high speeds in their shiny sports cars, endangering our lives while trying to shout their numbers at us, even when we are accompanied by our men in some instances? Why must we feel compelled to avoid certain shopping centers and malls because it’s a well known flirting gallery?
In what must have been a busy day for the MIB-Men In Beards (aka Muttawwa), 57 men were nabbed in Meccan shopping malls for trying to harass and/or flirt with women.
And girls, I know not all of you are innocent victims of male aggression. You know who you are, Miss Pops-Open-To-See-My-Miniskirt-Skinny-Abaya with your toxic applications of perfume, come-hither eye-makeup and your crippling stilettos. And we know you don't have your period even though you spent Maghrib prayer while the shops were closed primping in the Mall's bathrooms instead of praying. I'm not addressing you, you irreligious hussy. I'm speaking to women who aren't soliciting this type of attention from men.
Looks like Saudi Arabia has the same problem!! Thanks, Dalia*!!!
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
up for Dz. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
بنعمل فيلم تسجيلى إستقصائى بالجهود الذاتية يهدف لرصد ظاهرة التحرشات فى الشارع المصرى الفيلم لا يتبع أى جهة رسمية أو قناة فضائية أو محلية ولا أى مركز ابحاث ******* طبيعة الفيلم تقوم على متابعة عدد من الفتيات والسيدات على الطبيعة أثناء سيرهم فى الشارع بالكاميرا لمدة 5 دقائق .. وتصوير المضايقات التى يمكن أن يتعرضن أثناء سيرهن فى الشارع على الطبيعة ثم يتم حصر عدد المضايقات بالنسبة لعدد الفتيات أو السيدات محل الدراسة ******* مطلوب متطوعات لتصوير الفيلم *******
We are currently working on an independent documentary to monitor and record sexual harassment on Egyptian streets. The documentary is not part of any official entity, local or satellite channel, or any research institute. The documentary is based on following a number of females around for five minutes as they walk in the street. Our aim is to get footage of the forms of harassment they get exposed to while running errands. At a later stage, the forms will be categorized and will be studied independently.
CAIRO — At the Embaba Youth Center in Cairo, teenage girls in headscarves that signify Islamic modesty whack at each other with deft karate moves.
It’s fun, they say, but also a defense against nasty boys and men on the Egyptian capital’s mean streets.
“No one is going to touch me when I can hit them real hard,” said Nada Gamal Saad, 16.
The training is a grassroots reaction to a problem Cairo women’s groups say is growing: public verbal insults, groping and even rape. Such harassment contrasts with emerging signs of female political advancement in Egypt and other countries across the Middle East.
“Changes for women are surface improvements,” said Madiha el-Safty, a sociology professor at the American University in Cairo. “There is a deeper cultural problem: male hostility toward women who want to do more than stay at home.”
In his June 4 speech in Cairo, President Barack Obama said that women’s rights constituted one of six friction points between the United States and the Muslim world. “I am convinced that our daughters can contribute just as much to society as our sons,” he said. “I respect those women who choose to live their lives in traditional roles, but it should be their choice.”
There are some baby-steps of progress. Last month, four women in Kuwait were elected to the country’s 50-member Parliament, four years after women were first given the vote. Saudi Arabia pledged to the United Nations this month to end the requirement that women get permission from a male relative to work, travel, study or marry.
In Iran, Zahra Rahnavard became the first candidate’s wife to participate in her husband’s campaign when former Prime Minister Mir Hussein Moussavi ran for president against Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, on June 12. Mr. Moussavi lost and has claimed the voting was rigged.
On June 14, Egypt’s lower house of Parliament agreed to provide women with 64 guaranteed new seats in future elections. Eight women currently sit in the 454-member assembly. The government’s Justice Ministry is also reviewing a proposed law to expand a statute that prohibits unspecified “physical sexual offenses.” The new measure would detail actions considered sexual harassment, including public indecency and any kind of sexual touching.
Still, chronic offensive behavior suggests the horizon for equality in Egypt — where government statistics say that women make up about 25 percent of the work force — may be far off. Eighty-three percent of Egyptians and 98 percent of foreigners in a survey of 1,010 women last year said they were insulted or groped on Cairo streets.
“We’re going backwards,” said Rasha Hassan, a researcher at the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights, an independent civil-liberties monitoring group in Cairo that conducted the survey.
A half-dozen girls in the working-class district of Embaba practice karate at the youth center, even though it cannot afford mats.
“At least, this will help me to look confident and maybe keep bad people away,” said Nourhan Nasser Sayed, 16.
Since March, Community Times, a monthly Cairo magazine, has run testimonies from women about being harassed. In the June edition, an Egyptian said she was walking with a female friend in Maadi, an upscale southern suburb, when a man reached out from a car and grabbed her companion’s buttocks.
Fifteen sexual harassment cases have been filed since October, when a man was sentenced to three years in jail for grabbing a woman’s breast on the street. The conviction was Egypt’s first on harassment charges, Ms. Hassan said. “Before, no one would bother” going to court, she said. That case “helped encourage people who want to speak out.”
Ms. Safty recalls that women wore sundresses and miniskirts no more than two decades ago in Cairo. Now most sport long sleeves, trousers and headscarves. Even the scarves, mandated by some Muslims as a sign of piety, are no defense: Seventy-two percent of women in the survey reported wearing them when the inappropriate behavior occurred.
“Our grandmothers had more freedom than we do, without the harassment,” Ms. Safty said.
She blames the change partly on frustrated young men who lack jobs and money and get their kicks insulting women. Another influence is “wayward” Islamic teaching that defines women as sexual objects to be confined at home, she said.
Mohamed Nasef, spokesman for the government’s National Council for Women, said that reports of harassment were “exaggerated.” Anyway, “it happens everywhere,” he said.
His office is headed by Suzanne Mubarak, wife of President Hosni Mubarak, who played down incidents that emerged in November, saying “Egyptian men always respect Egyptian women.”
Down the hall from Mr. Nasef, Samah Said had a different perspective. “There’s really a regression here,” noted Ms. Said, who runs the council’s department for combating violence against women. “Gallantry is dead.”
Do Egyptian men care? Last week, a reporter approached a group of eight who were making vulgar catcalls to a woman boarding a taxi in Tahrir Square in central Cairo. Asked what they were doing, they responded that they were just admiring the lady.
Mwah, when I should have no money and no job, would I get my kicks out of making sexual tainted remarks, unwanted intimacy or worse? I really don't think so. First of all because it wouldn't even come into mind- as for most women- so why does it come in mind by men? Is it one of the learned behaviours, as you should be friendly, and you should keep your fingers off of somebody elses belongings? Or should it be something like the hidden fear for being punished by society, who doesnt appreciate thieves, or unpolite behaviour? Should it be punished harder? Or should it be a matter of the women themselves, who have to make that turn into their own minds and don't accept anything they don't want? Making women more assertive is one step, making men aware is another...
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Lewd stares distressing for women
Hey, woman, wash my clothes!”
“How much do you cost?”
When I heard men shout these insults on two separate occasions as I walked down the street in Kabul and Abu Dhabi, respectively, I was stung.
Being stared or yelled at is just part of the experience of working and living in this region. But I never get used to it. Indeed women all over Asia and the Middle East are harassed constantly.
Western women are targets, but so are our Arab, Indian, Nepali, Bangladeshi and Pakistani sisters. We are stared at, called names and sometimes assaulted by men. Which is why part of me cheered when Al Bawadi Mall in Al Ain announced earlier this week that labourers had been banned on weekday evenings and weekends following a litany of complaints about harassment.
The Emirates is the most female-friendly country in the Middle East. The Government’s efforts to encourage women to use public spaces is admirable. The Abu Dhabi beach was quickly divided into two sections last year after women expressed their discomfort at gangs of labourers roaming about and leering. Emirati men are courteous. They never stare.
By contrast, sexual harassment levels in Egypt are endemic. In the Punjab and Karachi, images of women on billboards are defaced or just banned.
When I lived in Kabul, cars with men at the wheel occasionally raced in my direction and swerved out of the way just before hitting me. A British-Asian friend of mine was once pushed into a ditch of raw sewage on her way home from a press conference in the Afghan capital. The Taliban used to say a woman’s place was in the home or the graveyard.
Across the region this message is given in many variations, but the gist is aggressive and clear: respectable women do not belong in the public sphere. And those who venture outside the home are objects of scorn or fascination. There is certainly an element of racism and snobbery in Al Bawadi Mall’s decision. The labourers are poor South Asians and Arabs. Although it may be offensive to westerners, in some Asian cultures staring is normal behaviour. It is a popular pastime in India and Pakistan, where people stare at others to see what they are buying or wearing.
Many of the labourers in the Emirates have also had little exposure to the outside world because they are from small towns. When they move here, it is often their first contact with the rich and developed world. They have a natural curiosity about the way westerners live because they have snatched glimpses of it in films. European and North American expatriates have a lifestyle labourers can never hope to attain, and wandering around a mall on a hot Friday afternoon is an opportunity to experience that which embodies all the wealth, glamour and power of the West: the mobile phones, the high-definition televisions, men in clean, pressed suits, women in skimpy clothes.
I can’t blame them for that.
But the way many of them look at women is not the glance stolen by the man sitting across from you on the train in London, New York or Rome. In the West a stony look is enough to put an end to that. Instead it is a penetrating gaze that goes right to your core, combining lecherousness, intense curiosity or just hatred. It is sometimes accompanied by clicking noises meant to get a woman’s attention. It is humiliating.
The images of the riches of the developed world beamed from satellite TV also send a second message: western women are easy. This is the fault of Hollywood films featuring bimbos and the proliferation of pornography on the internet. Yet western women are also fascinating because they are considered a third gender. They look like females but have the independence of men. Men who have no shame at leering at women make clear distinctions between those who deserve respect and those who do not.
This view reveals itself in small ways. When I wear long, loose tunics and trousers it is much easier to flag a taxi in Abu Dhabi. Drivers will invariably stop for women in abayas or, even better, the niqab, because they are perceived as modest and good. But the drivers sometimes breeze past a woman in a dress with spaghetti straps because they assume she has no self-respect.
I have two wardrobes: one I wear in places like Egypt, Afghanistan and India; the other I reserve for parts of Dubai and Europe.
Many women wear a hijab to prevent unwanted attention but it doesn’t always work. In Egypt, harassment is part of daily life. In 2006, women in Cairo organised a demonstration with the slogan “the street is ours” to protest about the groping and taunting. In the 1990s, Moroccan women went on strike for the same reason.
Afghan women wear a burqa for safety: it is a barrier between them and the abuse. I sometimes wished I had one to slip over my head.
The concept of respect and the presence of a woman in public are linked. In most parts of South and West Asia and the Middle East, there are few opportunities for women to work outside the home, and education is partly to blame.
Only half of women in the Arab world are literate, and just 45 per cent of South Asian women can read and write. Female activists across the region have to battle the idea that the only role fit for a woman is to raise a family and that she should never leave the house unless she has permission from her father or husband. As a result, women make up only 15 per cent of the membership in Asia’s parliaments, and in Arab countries just eight per cent of parliamentarians are female, according to the UN Arab Human Development Report 2005.
In Afghanistan, when I stopped at villages to talk to people, word would get out that a single woman was on the street and I soon found myself being followed by dozens of men pointing and whispering. They would often point at my pen: the image of a lone woman writing in an illiterate society was alluring.
If they are allowed an education, in many Muslim societies children are segregated from an early age. Girls are covered from head to toe and they are taught that any interaction between the sexes before marriage is forbidden. Marriages are arranged in their late teens and there are no opportunities for the sexes to mix.
As they grow older, boys fetishise the female body so even a glimpse of an ankle or a wrist is tantalising. As adults, living in labour camps in the Emirates, they have no contact with wives back home, but there are plenty of Bollywood films for distraction with scenes of pouting girls in clinging wet saris dancing in the rain to heighten the excitement. By the time they encounter a blonde woman in jeans buying chicken at Carrefour ... well, it all becomes too much.
In Kuwait, women have been trying to resist efforts at segregating men and women in schools to prevent this fetishisation. It would be easy to blame the lechery on the rise of political Islam, which emphasises a traditional role for women and the need to protect women’s honour by limiting their mobility and access to the public sphere. But a colleague in Cairo once told me that she enjoyed going to Muslim Brotherhood demonstrations because the crowds of men always respectfully parted to allow her through.
Most of the men here who leer at women know it is wrong. They are from cultures where they are taught to avert their eyes when they see a girl, out of respect for her father and brothers.
I recently moved house and hired a moving company, staffed by Indian and Bangladeshi workers. The foreman in charge was more interested in watching my movements than doing his own job. I finally snapped.
“Why don’t you get on with your work? What if someone stared at your sister like that?”
When it becomes too much I create a mental buffer zone to tune out the calls and stares. If that doesn’t work I try the shoe trick. When the offender shouts an insult, I stop, point at his shoes and laugh.
It subtly shifts the balance of power. And I won’t get arrested.
I never had any problems with harassment in Dubai but since I left there and moved to the Northern Emirates I get it constantly. There are very few western expats here and the population is mainly arabs and migrant workers.
I am constantly stared at by the labourers, people shout things on the street and from their cars if I am walking. I try not to walk anywhere because I feel really uncomfortable when groups of men start nudging each other and saying things as I walk past. We have ladies only queues in the banks here and I have to visit the bank on a weekly basis and the same things happens there. Also when I go to Carrefour.What I wear makes no difference.
I have been followed in my car on three separate occasions. Once when I was driving going from my home to the bank a group of Emirati men were driving alongside me and trying to get my attention. This lasted for more than 20 mins. I totally blanked them and when I pulled over and parked outside the bank they did as well and started trying to talk to me asking my name etc etc. I was really scared at the time and I didnt know how to deal with it other than ignore it like it wasn't happening
I never experienced anything like this in the UK
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dubai Girl: I never had any problems with harassment in Dubai but since I left there and moved to the Northern Emirates I get it constantly. There are very few western expats here and the population is mainly arabs and migrant workers.
I am constantly stared at by the labourers, people shout things on the street and from their cars if I am walking. I try not to walk anywhere because I feel really uncomfortable when groups of men start nudging each other and saying things as I walk past. We have ladies only queues in the banks here and I have to visit the bank on a weekly basis and the same things happens there. Also when I go to Carrefour.What I wear makes no difference.
I have been followed in my car on three separate occasions. Once when I was driving going from my home to the bank a group of Emirati men were driving alongside me and trying to get my attention. This lasted for more than 20 mins. I totally blanked them and when I pulled over and parked outside the bank they did as well and started trying to talk to me asking my name etc etc. I was really scared at the time and I didnt know how to deal with it other than ignore it like it wasn't happening
I never experienced anything like this in the UK
this kind of thing used to happen in UK back in the 60s and 70s especially by workmen, although not on the same scale. Now there are laws about this thankfully.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
up.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Avoiding harassment in Egypt – 5 easy-to-follow steps
by Manar Ammar 28 September 2009
CAIRO: Avoiding sexual harassment in Egypt is as difficult as avoiding pollution: it’s in the air. Many of us pray for a thicker skin and the skill to cope with it but, if you are not one of the lucky ones who could leave the bad street experiences at the door, you are in for a tough time.
Many would agree that the Egyptian street is considered one of the safest in the world. Of course those who argue this, are males.
It is true that for men the street is a stress-free experience. They blend in, no curious, innocent, or not so innocent, looks; no comments; that are sure to hit your ear or even, in some cases, touching and groping. So yes, it is indeed a safe place in case you are a male. But if you belong to the other gender and happen to be in the age group of 16 to 60, then the street experience is subject to change.
From personal experience and experiences of those around me, I found that following few tips could help ease the pain of going from A to B i.e. leaving your house unaccompanied by a human male to go any where. Here they are:
1. Avoid eye contact while walking. Apparently in the male dictionary eye contact means: I love you, please say something. Use sunglasses during the day and at nighttime to look at the ground.
2. Wearing short skirts and sleeveless shirts is a harassment wish. Wear a shawl over it and you would be fine and remember the only thing in your outfit that could be transparent is your eyeglass.
3. Hunch your back. Forget about healthy straight backs for a while, as they are a chance for men to gaze at your chest. The Notre Dame walk is in this season.
4. Listen to music while walking. Ignorance of what is being said to and at you is a blessing in this country.
5. If none of the above works, order a Harry Potter invisibility cloak, put it on when leaving your house. Seriously, if you find on, please order me one, too.
quote:Originally posted by Dubai Girl: I never had any problems with harassment in Dubai but since I left there and moved to the Northern Emirates I get it constantly. There are very few western expats here and the population is mainly arabs and migrant workers.
I am constantly stared at by the labourers, people shout things on the street and from their cars if I am walking. I try not to walk anywhere because I feel really uncomfortable when groups of men start nudging each other and saying things as I walk past. We have ladies only queues in the banks here and I have to visit the bank on a weekly basis and the same things happens there. Also when I go to Carrefour.What I wear makes no difference.
I have been followed in my car on three separate occasions. Once when I was driving going from my home to the bank a group of Emirati men were driving alongside me and trying to get my attention. This lasted for more than 20 mins. I totally blanked them and when I pulled over and parked outside the bank they did as well and started trying to talk to me asking my name etc etc. I was really scared at the time and I didnt know how to deal with it other than ignore it like it wasn't happening
I never experienced anything like this in the UK
I had a guy last week pull over in the road and he basically told me to get in... I am sure you can imagine how I handled that I scared the life out of him.
I get comments all the time but I ignore them or reply in arabic telling them I understand everything (I don't but hey... they aren't bright enough to see through that lie lol)
I do not agree with the point about walking with your head down, to me this signifies you are weak and frightened... I stand tall, walk tall and if I see a guy even so much as think he can come over I say good morning how are you in Arabic and I find he soon scurries off...
I have had only 2 incidents here now in 17 years (both this summer) neither frightened me and I sufficiently sent the one packing convinced his tackle resembled that of a 7 year olds
Nor do I agree with wearing headphones, this is not even advised in the UK, you cannot hear traffic for eg. let alone be aware of the people around you, especially behind you.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: I had a guy last week pull over in the road and he basically told me to get in...
This happens to me quite often, and it really pisses me off. I have kicked quite a few car doors and smashed a mirror in cases like this. Since it's usually guys in nice, expensive cars who do that I suppose they weren't too happy about the damage I did to their status symbols.
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: I do not agree with the point about walking with your head down, to me this signifies you are weak and frightened...
I was just thinking the same. How you carry yourself does make a difference -- not a big one, mind you, but it's definitely better to walk upright and look self-assured than hunched and timid.
Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: I had a guy last week pull over in the road and he basically told me to get in...
This happens to me quite often, and it really pisses me off. I have kicked quite a few car doors and smashed a mirror in cases like this. Since it's usually guys in nice, expensive cars who do that I suppose they weren't too happy about the damage I did to their status symbols.
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: I do not agree with the point about walking with your head down, to me this signifies you are weak and frightened...
I was just thinking the same. How you carry yourself does make a difference -- not a big one, mind you, but it's definitely better to walk upright and look self-assured than hunched and timid.
Exactly, kick them straight inb their status symbols.
I would NEVER bow my head, to ANYBODY. But that is how I was brought up... stand tall and be proud of yourself... even if you lose the race
Hunched.. not an attractive look either... why would you want to look like Quasimodo?????
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: stand tall and be proud of yourself...
Especially useful when you're dealing with Egyptian men who generally tend to be on the shorter side. Straighten your back and give them a devastating look from above. Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: stand tall and be proud of yourself...
Especially useful when you're dealing with Egyptian men who generally tend to be on the shorter side. Straighten your back and give them a devastating look from above.
I ws talking about height here yesterday to an Egyptian lady... she said I was tall. I commented I not tall really it is just the Egyptians in general (not all OBVIOUSLY) seem to be generally quite short. (shorter than me anyway) I noticed this when walking through Ain Shams University on Saturday. I am only 5' 8 but I do walk tall...
During weekends I wear heels and I like to be a good 5' 11
As a general rule though nobody can intimidate me... I don't care how big or tall they are.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
I lost my patience many times in the past with Egyptian guys on the street although I never kicked someone's car door in!!
It really helps when you have children by your side. My daughter is now ten and when we went to Cairo Downtown and other places a few months ago they left me alone. Really I didn't experience any harassment this time around. I just received the normal questions like where I am from etc.
See Dalia it's a bonus to have children - at least in Egypt!! Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: I ws talking about height here yesterday to an Egyptian lady... she said I was tall. I commented I not tall really it is just the Egyptians in general (not all OBVIOUSLY) seem to be generally quite short. (shorter than me anyway) I noticed this when walking through Ain Shams University on Saturday. I am only 5' 8 but I do walk tall...
During weekends I wear heels and I like to be a good 5' 11
I still have a problem with feet and inches. How much is 5'8 in centimeters? About 175?
I'm 173 cm, which is about average (or a little bit more) in Germany, but I noticed in Egypt most women, and also many men, are shorter than me. I don't always like that since I don't like sticking out, but sometimes it can be useful.
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: See Dalia it's a bonus to have children - at least in Egypt!!
I can always borrow one if I want to.
But you are right -- I noticed when you walk around with a kid on your hand, the harassment is significantly less. Although I have a European friend who still got harassed when she was pregnant.
Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
Dalia I am 180cm in my wedges... my weight height ration balcances out makes the BMI look better... naturally I am only 173 I wish I could be taller.
I would rather be told I look sexy than have a kid... some verbal harrassment seems a much better option Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: Dalia I am 180cm in my wedges... my weight height ration balcances out makes the BMI look better... naturally I am only 173 I wish I could be taller.
I would rather be told I look sexy than have a kid... some verbal harrassment seems a much better option
Honestly, I think I am the only person who has never been harrassed. I walk by myself and never hear one comment. The day Pink Ferret came to Maadi and was walking with me was the first time I heard comments. And they were directed at her not me.
I must be very unattractive by Egyptian standards. LOL.
Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY:
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: Dalia I am 180cm in my wedges... my weight height ration balcances out makes the BMI look better... naturally I am only 173 I wish I could be taller.
I would rather be told I look sexy than have a kid... some verbal harrassment seems a much better option
Honestly, I think I am the only person who has never been harrassed. I walk by myself and never hear one comment. The day Pink Ferret came to Maadi and was walking with me was the first time I heard comments. And they were directed at her not me.
I must be very unattractive by Egyptian standards. LOL.
I get a lot of verbal harrassment but this is harmless.. i have had this in the UK.. I ignore this 99% of the time, it is only when I hear certain words do I react.
QSY... is that when you had a big rottweiller with you... I wsa scared of you then as well Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
No. Even when I don't have the dog. But someone told me it is because I don't look friendly and I never smile. I walk around looking as if I could snap someone's head off even when I am in a good mood. I think this comes from living in the Bronx. Mean streets made me tough.
Posted by cloudberry (Member # 11163) on :
^Oh I only wish that would work!!! I walk in Luxor like that and still get nasty remarks, also those "smile you are in Luxor" - he he
The thing is that in the long run this does not work for ME, it makes me feel stressed. Who on earth wants to walk around looking angry? And feeling angry.
I have a chance to go there but for this reason it is not so appealing anymore. Sad. I really like Luxor. But I'm getting drawn back to Finland more and more.
Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY: No. Even when I don't have the dog. But someone told me it is because I don't look friendly and I never smile. I walk around looking as if I could snap someone's head off even when I am in a good mood. I think this comes from living in the Bronx. Mean streets made me tough.
You do smile... maybe not as much as me but I am called Bashousha (ignore spelling) by my egyptian friends.
Even in the UK I am always walking around on air, kinda oblivious to many things... perhaps I should visit the bronx Posted by cloudberry (Member # 11163) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: I lost my patience many times in the past with Egyptian guys on the street although I never kicked someone's car door in!!
It really helps when you have children by your side. My daughter is now ten and when we went to Cairo Downtown and other places a few months ago they left me alone. Really I didn't experience any harassment this time around. I just received the normal questions like where I am from etc.
See Dalia it's a bonus to have children - at least in Egypt!!
I guess not in Luxor. The last comment was "I wish I was his father", pointing at my son and then the whole group (obvious gigolos) had a nasty laugh. I got soooooo mad. They got little bit scared of my camera but still laughed from far...really nice They are ruining the image of Egypt.
Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret:
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY: No. Even when I don't have the dog. But someone told me it is because I don't look friendly and I never smile. I walk around looking as if I could snap someone's head off even when I am in a good mood. I think this comes from living in the Bronx. Mean streets made me tough.
You do smile... maybe not as much as me but I am called Bashousha (ignore spelling) by my egyptian friends.
Even in the UK I am always walking around on air, kinda oblivious to many things... perhaps I should visit the bronx
Not true. I don't smile when I am by myself on the street or around people I don't know.
You have seen me smile because I know you. Many people say they are afraid to talk to me when they first see me because I seem so unfriendly.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: I guess not in Luxor. The last comment was "I wish I was his father", pointing at my son and then the whole group (obvious gigolos) had a nasty laugh.
Oh that's pretty bad!!
Now when I was in Egypt (and my husband wasn't around) I was asked if I was married to an Egyptian or someone said that my daughter looked Egyptian or blah blah blah ..... but really only quite normal stuff.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: See Dalia it's a bonus to have children - at least in Egypt!!
I can always borrow one if I want to.
I can ship you one over - ANYTIME! You'd love my daughter, she's such a girl. But my youngest son is the easiest to handle!!
Now that is awful to be even getting harassed while pregnant. When I was visibly pregnant looking I already lived in Maadi and perhaps people have more respect there towards others and are anyway used to see foreigners.
Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily:
quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: I guess not in Luxor. The last comment was "I wish I was his father", pointing at my son and then the whole group (obvious gigolos) had a nasty laugh.
Oh that's pretty bad!!
Now when I was in Egypt (and my husband wasn't around) I was asked if I was married to an Egyptian or someone said that my daughter looked Egyptian or blah blah blah ..... but really only quite normal stuff.
Must have just wanted to start a conversation with you because your daughter does not look anything like an Egyptian child.
That's almost as bad a someone asking LF (with her blond hair and blue eyes) if she was Chinese.
I was walking around in Tahrir with a friend and was followed by this guy who kept asking me if I was German. I didn't answer him at all so naturally he took that as a no and then decided I was Russian...French...Spanish... I was even asked by some people at work if I was Lebanese I don't look like any of these LOL.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
You are right. If anything my daughter has Latina in her looks cause it's in her genes.
I got many times asked if I was Russian - I see that as an insult!! Posted by ukthoughtful (Member # 17000) on :
This is really sad that it's this bad!! LOL @ the kicking doors in!! I wonder what these guys success rate is?
Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
I got asked in Zara the other week if I spoke Italian... why the hell was he asking me in English!!!!!!!!!!
The guys do just wanna get talking in the hope of trying to strike a conversation. when I ws told I had Egyptian eyes was the funniest!!! I just asked him why and he had no answer... moron
One guy was bothering me and a friend on an escalator in City stars.. you know the usual banter but he wsa with a western looking woman.. so I turned around and said 'your friend clearly wants us to talk to you becasue we are westerners... are you ok, can I help?' she was from my home town in the UK!!!!!!!! We went to the same college and had the same tutor... small world eh. She is happily married to a taxi driver in Luxor. He just wanted her to meet folk in Cairo as she likes to visit for the shopping. We are now friends.
Posted by ukthoughtful (Member # 17000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret: I got asked in Zara the other week if I spoke Italian... why the hell was he asking me in English!!!!!!!!!!
The guys do just wanna get talking in the hope of trying to strike a conversation. when I ws told I had Egyptian eyes was the funniest!!! I just asked him why and he had no answer... moron
One guy was bothering me and a friend on an escalator in City stars.. you know the usual banter but he wsa with a western looking woman.. so I turned around and said 'your friend clearly wants us to talk to you becasue we are westerners... are you ok, can I help?' she was from my home town in the UK!!!!!!!! We went to the same college and had the same tutor... small world eh. She is happily married to a taxi driver in Luxor. He just wanted her to meet folk in Cairo as she likes to visit for the shopping. We are now friends.
That's uncanny!! LOL
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY:
]Honestly, I think I am the only person who has never been harrassed. I walk by myself and never hear one comment. The day Pink Ferret came to Maadi and was walking with me was the first time I heard comments. And they were directed at her not me.
I must be very unattractive by Egyptian standards. LOL. [/QB]
No, you're not the only one.
My precisely 3 minor sexual harassment incidents from 18 months ago have been given here before.
Other than that, no comments, no gropes, no hassles (of the sexual variety) and that is travelling on buses, microbuses, metros and all hours of the day and night.
I was on the bus from Heliopolis to Pyramids about midnight on Saturday and I thought, I wish I had an invisible camera on my head filming everyone on the bus so I could prove to people that I don't even get a glance after the initial "blimey a foreigner and on a bus" look.
Several people on ES rather patronisingly decided to inform me that of course I had been sexually harassed I simply didn't know that was what it was. Well believe me, I do, very very well.
Oh yes, I did do something incredibly idiotic a couple of weeks ago when I was very distracted and got my boob groped by a SAUDI guy. That was sexual harassment but not by an Egyptian.
I do know at least 3 other posters here who have not been harassed either but it is up to them whether they choose to restate their positions or not.
Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
SQ my 'harrassment' is mostly purely words ... and tbh, are words harrassing???
ES folk, patronising... really????????
Posted by cloudberry (Member # 11163) on :
^Yes certain words are and how they act during it. I don't mind the usuals and wouldn't call it harassment, when there is nothing that could offend. But it is not right either that someone approaches a woman on a street just for fun, even to say hello where are you from. They wouldn't do that to an Egyptian, esp in places like Luxor. I haven't seen any Egyptian asking an Egyptian lady 'hey what's your name, where do you live'. Maybe not harassment but inappropriate, yes. And they know it.
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
Yes, tourist hassle is annoying but it is not SEXUAL harassment and I personally draw a very clear distinction between the two.
Posted by ukthoughtful (Member # 17000) on :
What can be done about this? There must be a way to rid the streets of this stuff?
However I hear many mediterranean(sp) countries are the same.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Nothing can be done unless these people change their mentality - and that won't happen at least not in our lifetime.
And yes Italians are pretty flirty too but I never had probs with Greek guys etc. actually it's rather the opposite. I'd harass them lol!! Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: ^Yes certain words are and how they act during it. I don't mind the usuals and wouldn't call it harassment, when there is nothing that could offend. But it is not right either that someone approaches a woman on a street just for fun, even to say hello where are you from. They wouldn't do that to an Egyptian, esp in places like Luxor. I haven't seen any Egyptian asking an Egyptian lady 'hey what's your name, where do you live'. Maybe not harassment but inappropriate, yes. And they know it.
I have women come up to me and ask me where Ia m from and strike up a polite conversation... it seems when a women does it is viewed she is practising her english but when a man does it he is harrassing you...
I personally don't mind being spoken to but as soon as the conversation shifts from polite and friendly to creepy I just say I have to go now.
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Nothing can be done unless these people change their mentality - and that won't happen at least not in our lifetime.
And yes Italians are pretty flirty too but I never had probs with Greek guys etc. actually it's rather the opposite. I'd harass them lol!!
I know you're jesting TL, but why is the subject of male sexual harassment not taken seriously?
I know of several cases of MALE EGYPTIANS who have been sexually harassed by FEMALE WESTERNERS. They have no-one to turn to.
Posted by unfinished thought. (Member # 16076) on :
Posted by cloudberry (Member # 11163) on :
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret:
quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: ^Yes certain words are and how they act during it. I don't mind the usuals and wouldn't call it harassment, when there is nothing that could offend. But it is not right either that someone approaches a woman on a street just for fun, even to say hello where are you from. They wouldn't do that to an Egyptian, esp in places like Luxor. I haven't seen any Egyptian asking an Egyptian lady 'hey what's your name, where do you live'. Maybe not harassment but inappropriate, yes. And they know it.
I have women come up to me and ask me where Ia m from and strike up a polite conversation... it seems when a women does it is viewed she is practising her english but when a man does it he is harrassing you...
I personally don't mind being spoken to but as soon as the conversation shifts from polite and friendly to creepy I just say I have to go now.
It must depend where you are. Cairo - would't worry so much but Luxor - if the other men around you see (it's a small town after all, everyone knows your business) that you allow strange men to approach you they will do the same. That's why it is not good to talk there to anyone on the street.
Actually it is not right even to stop someone else's wife on the street if she is alone and I see decent men do not do this. Once a guy ran after me just to stop me, I knew him, and once he reached me he first apologized that he had shouted/spoken me on the street because it is not nice.
Normally I wouldn't mind this but I don't want OTHERS to follow this example since I know I have eyes on me everywhere.
Posted by Pink Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by cloudberry:
quote:Originally posted by Pink Ferret:
quote:Originally posted by cloudberry: ^Yes certain words are and how they act during it. I don't mind the usuals and wouldn't call it harassment, when there is nothing that could offend. But it is not right either that someone approaches a woman on a street just for fun, even to say hello where are you from. They wouldn't do that to an Egyptian, esp in places like Luxor. I haven't seen any Egyptian asking an Egyptian lady 'hey what's your name, where do you live'. Maybe not harassment but inappropriate, yes. And they know it.
I have women come up to me and ask me where Ia m from and strike up a polite conversation... it seems when a women does it is viewed she is practising her english but when a man does it he is harrassing you...
I personally don't mind being spoken to but as soon as the conversation shifts from polite and friendly to creepy I just say I have to go now.
It must depend where you are. Cairo - would't worry so much but Luxor - if the other men around you see (it's a small town after all, everyone knows your business) that you allow strange men to approach you they will do the same. That's why it is not good to talk there to anyone on the street.
Actually it is not right even to stop someone else's wife on the street if she is alone and I see decent men do not do this. Once a guy ran after me just to stop me, I knew him, and once he reached me he first apologized that he had shouted/spoken me on the street because it is not nice.
Normally I wouldn't mind this but I don't want OTHERS to follow this example since I know I have eyes on me everywhere.
I know most the people in my area... many I met when I was a not so naive 17 year old i know I am being looked out for.
I live amongst friends and good neighbours.
I had some Russian idiot walking with me talking one night and he tried to kiss me in the street and I politely said no thanks. He tried again and I said NO very firmly and he went to grab me, so I grabbed his wrist and announced in Arabic I have a problem and my bowaab along with some of his friends came over and I left them to it. That is unacceptable and was dealt with.
I was waiting for a taxi on saleh salem earlier and three blokes hollered from a car the usual crap, welcome eshta, mozza blah blah... I think I have resigned myself to the fact that all I can do is accept this is how it will be and crack on. I am not offended (or flattered) and to me it is part of life here.
If it stopped I would probably worry about it... like if the traffic went quiet, sure it would be welcomed but I am just used to it.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Is Harassment Hilarious? Nile Comedy TV Thinks so
There’s a new government-sponsored comedy channel in Egypt, Nile Comedy TV, which has created a humorous series of “non-commercial breaks.” One memorable example that made me laugh went like this:
Buy the Chinese sheep! It weighs 12 kg when alive, and 55 kg after being slaughtered. It’s fed on a diet of chips, so you can control the taste of the sheep by controlling the types of chips it eats. It comes in three colors: green, red and blue! It has two hearts, two livers, two stomachs and it has radio and bluetooth! It does not make noise and doesn’t move a lot, so it’s easy to slaughter. Surprise: You can slaughter it twice! And if you call now, you’ll get a free set of knives too! One shipping price, one set price. From Fahlway, where our motto is: ‘trick the customer.’
You get the idea.
But recently, they’ve come up with two commercials that alternatively make me a) roll my eyes b) very sad.
The guy sitting on the couch is asked a series of questions:
“Do you have a problem, and can’t harass girls on the street? Do you have the desire to get to know girls and not one of them gives you the time of day? You never know what to say or how? You have no experience? You’re afraid of a sexual harassment suit?”
The guy replies in the affirmative to all the questions. Not to worry, the voice tells us, a device now exists that is designed to help Egyptian men harass women on the street!
This amazing device (which you wear on a chain around your neck) has a camera that captures a picture of the girl you’re eyeballing on the street. It then analyzes her a) walk b) clothes and c) voice and gives you the correct harassment. So the examples we see are of the guy:
• Being explicit to the unveiled girl when the device tells him, “Don’t mind anything, you can be as explicit as you like.” • Focusing on a veiled girl’s “respectability and beauty” when the device instructs him to harass her “gently and politely” (is there something wrong here, or is it just me?) • Running away from the fat woman when the device tells him to. • The last shot of the ad is of the guy surrounded by half a dozen unveiled women.
I’m so sick and tired of harassment. All Egyptian women are. As we’ve all mentioned more than once, a recent study by the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights (ECWR) told us that in a country where over 80% of the women are veiled, 83% of women are harassed. 62% of Egyptian men surveyed admitted to harassment. 60% of the respondents (male and female) said that scantily clad women are more likely to be harassed though in reality 72% of the women who said they’d been harassed were veiled.
It’s so rampant we cease to think of it as a crime. It’s not even called harassment, “taharoush”, but the very light-hearted term “mu’aksa,” teasing. It’s verbal and physical. Only 2% of women who are harassed report it. 53% of Egyptian men blame women for bringing it upon themselves. Egyptian law doesn’t even mention harassment.
So let’s make it worse by creating a “comedic” ad that makes light of sexual harassment?! I’m not sure which would be worse: if this was an actual product or the fact that it’s supposed to be funny. The issue is already considered trivial compared to other problems Egypt is suffering from–how is this ad supposed to be funny?
And not only are we saying that harassment is normal, let’s make it worse: What message is the ad sending about veiled/ unveiled girls? That unveiled girls are okay to harass? That they will somehow welcome your disgusting comments?!
And wait, that’s not all. Here’s the second ad, this time for a Sexual Harassment Stoppe. Girls, rejoice!
The unveiled girl sitting on the couch is asked:
Do you feel afraid when you go out into the streets? Do you face problems when you go out? Do you get annoyed from the “teasing” you hear?
When the questions are asked, although they are serious, the music is anything but, therefore not giving weight to the travesty of the situation: what does it say about a civilized society in this day and age where women are afraid to walk in the streets?! We see a cartoon of a busty, unveiled blonde woman, and the girl being asked the questions/walking in the streets being harassed is unveiled, subtly implying that it’s only the unveiled girls who dress provocatively who get harassed.
So the device will do three things: a) give the guy a headache b) give the guy an electric shock c) stop you from hearing what he’s saying.
And here’s the kicker: If you want to, you can turn off the machine so you can hear the “teasing.” Because of course, there are girls who like it, don’t you know? As if we need anything to further support the absurd belief that women “like it” when you harass them.
The device is also an insect repellent. And if you buy it, you get a free sexy dress.
i think egyptian men would hate me cas if i was being sexually harassed i would throw it right back at them..and shame their asses..if a man grabbed me well all is fair i would grab him back. if he asked me to suck somethin i would say lick somethin first.. like i always say anything a man can do a woman can do better.. its funny cas when i first met walid he was like an angel and didnt know crap about sex. now he is a huge perv..he always says if yr mean i will tell mom that u make me nasty nasty man...men are so funny.
Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY: Phone stalkers:
I usually find it amusing if a complete stranger calls you and tries to chat you up, but then this has rarely happened to me.
But I know that it's a growing problem, and I can imagine it can get really worrying. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY: Phone stalkers:
I usually find it amusing if a complete stranger calls you and tries to chat you up, but then this has rarely happened to me.
But I know that it's a growing problem, and I can imagine it can get really worrying.
I NEVER (not even in the UK) answer a call from a number I do not recognise.
If the call here is persistent I text 'who is this' in arabic... No response they go down in my phone as don't 'don't answer'
Only twice have I ever had persistent callers here and I have not answered, after a while they get bored.
My phone is on silent a lot so I miss most calls anyway... if the name comes up I can call them back... so with me these pathetic boys are wasting their energy
I feel really bad for girls who experience this though, harrassment on the street is one thing but constantly with you must be draining.
Posted by Kalila : ) (Member # 14517) on :
is your number still the same Cheeky ?
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kalila : ): is your number still the same Cheeky ?
Yes, but I don't have yours, that was in my stolen phone. Email me yours again so I can add you
One reason I never used to answer calls in the UK was because of phone companies or banks mithering me with questionaires. I even stopped answering the house phone unless a call was expected!!!
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Sexual harassment campaign for Egypt’s streets
by Joseph Mayton 20 October 2009
CAIRO: When women walk the streets of Cairo, the near constant verbal and physical attacks take its toll. For Mona Hanafi el-Siofi it was simply too much, so she gathered some friends and decided they needed to take some action. She decided that one way of bringing attention to this growing problem in the country was to hand out pamphlets to perpetrators that listed a series of statements and questions aimed at the attacker’s honor.
“Often I, or other friends, feel helpless, or just too fed up already, or you don’t remember a good response in Arabic at that moment,” the German-Egyptian PhD student told Bikya Masr as to the origins of the campaign idea.
The pamphlet idea is still in the initial stages, and Siofi is unsure how successful it will be, but the optimism surrounding the idea remains strong.
“The idea was to create a paper we can hand over to those men who annoy us,” read an email titled “Self-defense campaign against (Sexual) harassment” launching the new project. They hope the paper will illuminate to harassers the detrimental effect they are having on society and help to empower women to defend themselves.
The paper reads, in Arabic: “I am not a dog in the street! Oh, young man, I could be your sister! Oh, older man, I could be your daughter! Why are you doing this to me? Why you don’t respect me? So please, respect me and respect yourself!
Sexual harassment is an issue Egypt has been struggling with for a number of years. Campaigns and dialogue have done little to stem the rising number of assaults and reports of widespread harassment. In October 2006, during the Eid holiday that follows the Holy Month of Ramadan, mobs of young men attacked female bystanders, ripping at and groping them near a local cinema in downtown Cairo. Nobody believed the women’s stories until evidence appeared on blogs that included video and pictures of the event.
According to the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights (ECWR) some 70 percent of all women living in Egypt have experienced harassment. Almost all foreigners have been the victim of abuses, a 2008 report revealed.
“The origin of creating this paper is a somehow funny story,” Siofi admits. “Once I walked in downtown [Cairo], passing by a parked car, two young men sitting in it. One of them said something to me, I don’t remember what it was, but I became really angry because it was for the umpteenth time this day. However, I just had a screwed up bus ticket in my hand, stepped back and threw it into the car, without saying anything else … you should have seen their faces!”
Harassment has become so prevelant that many women in the country simply prefer to stay home than risk heading out for a simple walk. The campaign hopes to give the power back to the women by creating a sense of shame toward perpetrators.
One Egyptian journalist said that while the idea is good, “why is it that women are forced to use this sort of language that makes them seem weak? People need to step in and create a better society without women being put on the defensive.”
It remains an uphill battle, leading activists such as ECWR chief Nehad Abu Komsan says, especially with first lady Suzanne Mubarak last year going on Al-Arabiya television network saying Egyptian men are “respectful” of women in the country.
“Egyptian men always respect Egyptian women,” the first lady said in the interview after the presenter showed her a number of recent assault claims made by women. “This gives the impression that the streets in Egypt are not safe. That is not true . . . the media have exaggerated,” Mubarak continued. “Maybe one, two or even 10 incidents occurred. Egypt is home to 80 million people. We can’t talk of a phenomenon. Maybe a few scatterbrained youths are behind this crime.”
The first lady suggested that some of the negative media could have been motivated by Islamist militant factions. “And maybe some people wanted to make it seem as though the streets of Egypt are not safe so girls and women stay at home. This could be their agenda,” she said in a reference to Islamist militants.
Her claim that militants are hijacking harassment for political reasons has been discounted by leading activists, including Abu Komsan.
“Her claims really show that some people do not want to really talk about this issue,” Abu Komsan said.
“What people say about Islamic militants taking this issue is ridiculous because they have been against us for a long time. We must educate everyone on this real issue that is affecting so many women here.”
for more information about the campaign and to get in touch with Siofi, please email editors@bikyamasr.com
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY: Phone stalkers:
I usually find it amusing if a complete stranger calls you and tries to chat you up, but then this has rarely happened to me.
But I know that it's a growing problem, and I can imagine it can get really worrying.
Happened to me when I first got here. Some guy misdialed and when he realized I was a foreign woman he gave my number out to all his friends. I was pissd mostly because I was trying to take a nap and the phone kept ringing. "Hi I want to be your friend...I speak French (well flippin great for you I don't)...I want to learn English (so go take a damn class)..."
I was not very nice to these guys. One in particular kept calling back. My husband was out of town but when he got back I had him call the number. He got the guy to confess that his friend had given my number to him because I was a foreign female. We didn't threaten him or anything, but my husband said he was scared. He probably did not do that again for a while.
I went out that night and got a new SIM card.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY: Happened to me when I first got here. Some guy misdialed and when he realized I was a foreign woman he gave my number out to all his friends. I was pissd mostly because I was trying to take a nap and the phone kept ringing. "Hi I want to be your friend...I speak French (well flippin great for you I don't)...I want to learn English (so go take a damn class)..."
I was not very nice to these guys. One in particular kept calling back. My husband was out of town but when he got back I had him call the number. He got the guy to confess that his friend had given my number to him because I was a foreign female. We didn't threaten him or anything, but my husband said he was scared. He probably did not do that again for a while.
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY: Happened to me when I first got here. Some guy misdialed and when he realized I was a foreign woman he gave my number out to all his friends. I was pissd mostly because I was trying to take a nap and the phone kept ringing. "Hi I want to be your friend...I speak French (well flippin great for you I don't)...I want to learn English (so go take a damn class)..."
I was not very nice to these guys. One in particular kept calling back. My husband was out of town but when he got back I had him call the number. He got the guy to confess that his friend had given my number to him because I was a foreign female. We didn't threaten him or anything, but my husband said he was scared. He probably did not do that again for a while.
Yeah, I saw that link. I actually posted it in here. I was going to do it as a topic, but I figured you would.
Hasn't happened to me again. There are so many phone numbers in Egypt to dial and the odds of my number getting picked again is low. I hope Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Well when I moved to Egypt there were no mobile phones around, when I left Egyptians just slowly started to have them.
I did get harassed by male callers at various homes (I switched apartments quite often in Cairo) and some jack@ss even used to ring my phone number at work. Funnily the former girl who had the job warned me about this guy before she left so when his first call came ("Moan, moan, moan....") I wasn't really shocked okay I admit it still freaked me out a little. Someone recommended I should use a whistle next time he calls but I never did.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Egypt's harassment diseaseFrom street assaults to abusive phone calls, women in Egypt are plagued by sexual harassment. It's time to act against it Comments (58)
Nesrine Malik guardian.co.uk, Friday 23 October 2009 14.00 BST
When I was a student at university in Cairo, the college campus was considered a safe haven, a refuge from the lewd and abusive harassment that female students suffered on their way to class. American year-abroad students in particular regularly stumbled on to campus in tears of rage, fuming at the liberties men took on the streets of Cairo.
Last week's report on the rise of phone harassment in Egypt illustrated an extension of this culture. Unlike Saudi Arabia, where consensual phone relationships between men and women are struck up to circumvent the gender segregation in the country, in Egypt these calls are one-sided and predatory – an outlet for lewd and violating language. We're not talking good-natured flattery. References to body parts and sexual acts are common.
Apparently, however, this is how males act in a sexually repressed society. This is an unsatisfactory and patronising explanation. It is also a cop-out, allowing offenders to claim some sort of victimhood and sympathy for their "repressed" state. Egypt is hardly the most sexually repressed country in the Arab world; indeed, it is one of the most liberal in terms of pop culture and social freedoms. The gender segregation and extreme repression in some Gulf countries has not spawned this visceral and endemic degradation of women.
Cairo has a vibrant street culture and most harassment occurs in the street, where groups of men manifest their male machismo by dehumanising women. There is something rather Dickensian about Cairo, with its vast class discrepancies, overpopulation and crushing poverty. In addition, there is a gap between portrayals of women and lifestyle in the media and the reality experienced by millions of Egyptians. There is a surfeit of hyper-sexualised images of belly dancers, actresses and singers, movies with sexual content and music videos that are not in line with the fundamentally traditional nature of the country. This popularises a view, created and packaged by a mass media industry, of women as sexual objects, the root of all sin and the downfall of men.
In an exploitive and skewed social structure, men and women find it hard to achieve domestic security due to the prohibitive costs of marriage and accommodation. It is not that the Egyptian man is starved of sex, it is the lack of a viable domestic alternative when he is too old to be loitering in his parents' house. Living on your own in Egypt is frowned upon and so men are left stranded between the marital and parental homes. The absence of a "scene" for singles of both sexes to mix has left groups of feral males impotently lusting after the female population, safe in their numbers and anonymity. Women on the end of phone lines are even more faceless, which allows men to project their frustration and disempowerment with even less risk of exposure.
Religious efforts to address the issue have also been complicit in absolving men of their crimes, objectifying women and doing more harm than good with campaigns that blame women for the phenomenon. The "Cover Your Lollipop" campaign likens women to candy, there for the consumption and enjoyment of men. The campaign's poster portrays two lollipops, one covered with a wrapper, symbolising the hijab, and the other uncovered, with flies hovering over its exposed sweetness. Under the images, text outlines the divine wisdom of the veil, betraying a disturbing mentality that "views women as objects of pleasure and entertainment".
Even Suzanne Mubarak, the first lady of Egypt, maintains this line of denial, stating that Egyptian men fundamentally respect women and that harassment incidents may have been blown out of proportion by Islamic elements furthering their own agenda. This is where the issue truly becomes cancerous. When the state is more concerned with face-saving and point-scoring, the apathy filters down through all areas of law enforcement. Harsher penalties are hardly going to be dispensed when there is a denial that the problem exists in the first place. There have been some efforts to criminalise harassment and an Egyptian female student has launched an awareness-raising pamphlet distribution programme, but with little official support.
Perhaps the answer is to first dispense with all the excuses and justifications. Men take such liberties when conditions encourage them and the authorities are so indifferent that harassment becomes part of everyday life. However, as with most oppressive governments in the Arab world with weak civil societies, in Egypt any criticism of the status quo is seen as striking at the heart of the establishment. The best approach is to tackle the problem at its roots – on the streets, in the media and in people's homes.
I had an incident this week where I was in a position I had to answer an unknown number... it was annoyingly a random wrong number and I had a guy demanding me to tell him where I was etc... adamant I knew him. He kept calling after that and I just answered and put the phone on the table... he can pay for silence for all I care.
Anyway, after going to the bar and telling the lads they said next time he calls to pass the phone around... he finally stopped when an Egyptian woman I only met that night called him every name under the sun and threatened him with the police.... since then, silence
If he calls again I will just keep giving it different people till he realises his persistence is wasted on me as I can out play a player Posted by Questionmarks (Member # 12336) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: Is Harassment Hilarious? Nile Comedy TV Thinks so
There’s a new government-sponsored comedy channel in Egypt, Nile Comedy TV, which has created a humorous series of “non-commercial breaks.” One memorable example that made me laugh went like this:
Buy the Chinese sheep! It weighs 12 kg when alive, and 55 kg after being slaughtered. It’s fed on a diet of chips, so you can control the taste of the sheep by controlling the types of chips it eats. It comes in three colors: green, red and blue! It has two hearts, two livers, two stomachs and it has radio and bluetooth! It does not make noise and doesn’t move a lot, so it’s easy to slaughter. Surprise: You can slaughter it twice! And if you call now, you’ll get a free set of knives too! One shipping price, one set price. From Fahlway, where our motto is: ‘trick the customer.’
You get the idea.
But recently, they’ve come up with two commercials that alternatively make me a) roll my eyes b) very sad.
The guy sitting on the couch is asked a series of questions:
“Do you have a problem, and can’t harass girls on the street? Do you have the desire to get to know girls and not one of them gives you the time of day? You never know what to say or how? You have no experience? You’re afraid of a sexual harassment suit?”
The guy replies in the affirmative to all the questions. Not to worry, the voice tells us, a device now exists that is designed to help Egyptian men harass women on the street!
This amazing device (which you wear on a chain around your neck) has a camera that captures a picture of the girl you’re eyeballing on the street. It then analyzes her a) walk b) clothes and c) voice and gives you the correct harassment. So the examples we see are of the guy:
• Being explicit to the unveiled girl when the device tells him, “Don’t mind anything, you can be as explicit as you like.” • Focusing on a veiled girl’s “respectability and beauty” when the device instructs him to harass her “gently and politely” (is there something wrong here, or is it just me?) • Running away from the fat woman when the device tells him to. • The last shot of the ad is of the guy surrounded by half a dozen unveiled women.
I’m so sick and tired of harassment. All Egyptian women are. As we’ve all mentioned more than once, a recent study by the Egyptian Center for Women’s Rights (ECWR) told us that in a country where over 80% of the women are veiled, 83% of women are harassed. 62% of Egyptian men surveyed admitted to harassment. 60% of the respondents (male and female) said that scantily clad women are more likely to be harassed though in reality 72% of the women who said they’d been harassed were veiled.
It’s so rampant we cease to think of it as a crime. It’s not even called harassment, “taharoush”, but the very light-hearted term “mu’aksa,” teasing. It’s verbal and physical. Only 2% of women who are harassed report it. 53% of Egyptian men blame women for bringing it upon themselves. Egyptian law doesn’t even mention harassment.
So let’s make it worse by creating a “comedic” ad that makes light of sexual harassment?! I’m not sure which would be worse: if this was an actual product or the fact that it’s supposed to be funny. The issue is already considered trivial compared to other problems Egypt is suffering from–how is this ad supposed to be funny?
And not only are we saying that harassment is normal, let’s make it worse: What message is the ad sending about veiled/ unveiled girls? That unveiled girls are okay to harass? That they will somehow welcome your disgusting comments?!
And wait, that’s not all. Here’s the second ad, this time for a Sexual Harassment Stoppe. Girls, rejoice!
The unveiled girl sitting on the couch is asked:
Do you feel afraid when you go out into the streets? Do you face problems when you go out? Do you get annoyed from the “teasing” you hear?
When the questions are asked, although they are serious, the music is anything but, therefore not giving weight to the travesty of the situation: what does it say about a civilized society in this day and age where women are afraid to walk in the streets?! We see a cartoon of a busty, unveiled blonde woman, and the girl being asked the questions/walking in the streets being harassed is unveiled, subtly implying that it’s only the unveiled girls who dress provocatively who get harassed.
So the device will do three things: a) give the guy a headache b) give the guy an electric shock c) stop you from hearing what he’s saying.
And here’s the kicker: If you want to, you can turn off the machine so you can hear the “teasing.” Because of course, there are girls who like it, don’t you know? As if we need anything to further support the absurd belief that women “like it” when you harass them.
The device is also an insect repellent. And if you buy it, you get a free sexy dress.
Teasing...I mentioned a lot of 'teasing'; to women, to children, to the poor, in fact anyone who is kind of powerless. Don't think that's Egyptian, but just a nasty habit from people with a power-issue, it's an unequal batle. There is a 'winner' and a 'loser' and the one who wins wants to show his/her dominance,control, power.
Posted by Nasto (Member # 17091) on :
Girls, just do not stone me, ok?
Believe me, after certain age you will be nostalgic about any, even a slight trace, of sexual harassment. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Believe me, you have not understood a thing.
Harassment is not flattering, not in the least, as you obviously assume. It's the opposite -- humiliating and disgusting. No woman with her brain intact will ever feel "nostalgic" when thinking about it.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nasto: Girls, just do not stone me, ok?
Believe me, after certain age you will be nostalgic about any, even a slight trace, of sexual harassment.
That really is too stupid of a reply to respond to. Posted by basha (Member # 17145) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily:
quote:Originally posted by Nasto: Girls, just do not stone me, ok?
Believe me, after certain age you will be nostalgic about any, even a slight trace, of sexual harassment.
That really is too stupid of a reply to respond to.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Yesterday in Samir and Ali I was bothered by some african guys... one was too persistent wanting my photo, FB, yahoo, msn.. he wanted to carry my shopping, be my friend follow me home. so I left S&A, and walked into Spinneys to get away from him... he follows me asking me my problem so I turn around and announced in my loudest of voices... you are the problem now back off.. GO AWAY and called him a pervert. he scarpered
How to deal with perverts and harrassment... shout att hem in public. This is the new way a few of us are trying and they soon back the hell off.
Making a scene makes you realise how many decent folk there are who jump in to help Posted by Nasto (Member # 17091) on :
Surely the Dalia’ outburst speaks volumes about her brains.
I was referring not to harassment in the work place. This is really serious issue that is based on the ability of a man to control female subordinates and must be dealt without any hesitation. I am about incidents on the streets – this is what all the stories posted to this thread are about. There are many ways to avoid being harassed on the streets. Learn them. If you cannot avoid than bust them as CF said.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
When I was sexually harrassed in the UK I scared him half to death when I shouted at him!!!
I refuse to walk with my head hanging low like someone suggested we westerners should do to avoid eye contact.. I damn refuse to. If a dude so much as utters anything to me I speak up now and make that pervert feel 3 inches tall.
Confidence is the key, walk with a mission, look em in the eye and speak in Arabic to them... I walk through the middle of groups of lads who are clearly trying to intimidate me... it baffles them!
So far my harrassment in Egypt has consisted of mostly verbal, no one has EVER touched me here. So I must be doing something right
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: How to deal with perverts and harrassment... shout att hem in public. This is the new way a few of us are trying and they soon back the hell off.
Making a scene makes you realise how many decent folk there are who jump in to help
It's not a new way, I did that years ago. I stopped doing it after a couple of years because it didn't help much. And I found it frustrating that nobody every jumped in to help, instead people looked at me as if I was insane.
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Confidence is the key, walk with a mission, look em in the eye and speak in Arabic to them... I walk through the middle of groups of lads who are clearly trying to intimidate me... it baffles them!
Same here. But confidence only goes so far, there will always be guys who harass you no matter how confident, tall etc. you look. I get harassed much less than I did during my first year here when I was very insecure and intimidated, but it will never cease completely.
quote:Originally posted by Nasto: Surely the Dalia’ outburst speaks volumes about her brains.
I wasn't being aware of any outburts, but I'm curious to know what it says about my brain.
quote:Originally posted by Nasto: There are many ways to avoid being harassed on the streets. Learn them.
Do tell us about those ways. I'm sure millions of women in Cairo would be very grateful for the advice.
Btw., I find it sad that after pages and pages of this thread some people are still suggesting that somehow it must be womens' own fault if they get harassed. The wrong clothes, wrong attitude, wrong posture etc. pp. I thought the countless stories, personal accounts and studies should have made it clear that the problem exists no matter which techniques women are using to avoid it.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Yesterday in Samir and Ali I was bothered by some african guys... one was too persistent wanting my photo, FB, yahoo, msn.. he wanted to carry my shopping, be my friend follow me home. so I left S&A, and walked into Spinneys to get away from him... he follows me asking me my problem so I turn around and announced in my loudest of voices... you are the problem now back off.. GO AWAY and called him a pervert. he scarpered
How to deal with perverts and harrassment... shout att hem in public. This is the new way a few of us are trying and they soon back the hell off.
Making a scene makes you realise how many decent folk there are who jump in to help
I made a similar loud scene like that on one of my Cairo visits while walking around Tahrir Sq. Seems that is a heavy area for harrasment since on that same place i had my butt slapped by another youngster,that time he ran off away . The one i made a loud scene to,i was crossing the street there in the middle of the afternoon.I was modestly dressed wearing a long,down to my knees,loose,long sleeved tunic over my jeans.I was wearing dark sunglasses as i usually do on daytime anywhere,when i noticed this neat,university looking guy following me around,including each store or place i entered into.I take a smaller nearby street to walk into,a very busy pedestrian street.I kinda look back and the guy continues walking right behind me when i get really annoyed by his followind me around.I suddenly stop,look back at him and in my loudest voice say:HEYYYYY,ARE YOU FOLLOWING MEEEEEE? Suddenly ALL the eyes were on him and he simply detours to another way while with a tiny voices whispers....nooo! Obviously the guy was embarrased by my loud yelling and all other locals staring hardly at him.
Yesss,Ferret,that sure works!
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Dalia... this is new tactic for us... most of us usually ignore it as it is just words but of late we are having fun turning the tables. It all started at the Hash Ball when I flipped at this guy speaking porn to me thinking I was stoopid Hell hath no fury like a feisty ferret.
In 17 years here I have never been physically sexually harrassed and I think that is because I intimidate them more than they intimidate me. Hell, I have had folk off here tell me I am intimidating when I am not even trying
I know it works Sash... I have to walk through the University campus twice a week and I speak up if they utter anything... and I do walk head held high... I am proud to be me. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: I made a similar loud scene like that on one of my Cairo visits while walking around Tahrir Sq. Seems that is a heavy area for harrasment
I often hear this, but interestingly I don't get harassed much there. And I do a lot of walking downtown.
My impression is that the guys harassing women downtown are more on the lookout for tourists and tend to leave you alone if they sense you live there.
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: In 17 years here I have never been physically sexually harrassed and I think that is because I intimidate them more than they intimidate me.
Yeah, but harassment does not only mean being groped.
I haven't been physically harassed often. Does that mean I intimidate guys? Hm ... I don't necessarily think so.
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Dalia... this is new tactic for us... most of us usually ignore it as it is just words but of late we are having fun turning the tables.
Well, when I first moved to Cairo I often heard the advice to ignore it, but I don't believe in that.
Regarding turning the tables ... I sometimes used to throw really bad insults at those guys because I loved how it upset them. I am well aware that as a woman you shouldn't use dirty language etc. and you have to be careful not to be attacked, but I liked the fact that it made them angry. So instead of me being angry and feeling helpless, I left them being pissed off and walked on grinning.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
In Tahir Sq I get bothered a lot... no matter how long I live here I will always stand out as I am fair haired and blue eyed... I just tell em to shut up.
The places I get least harrassed are the back streets, the folk there are more interested in my money lol..
I tolerate so much, but on relentless days I flip. Yesterday this guy was just beginning to become white noise and would not back off. I saw blue mist coming down and just growled at him... maybe my reaction will stop him from bothering someone else!!!!!!!!
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: In Tahir Sq I get bothered a lot... no matter how long I live here I will always stand out as I am fair haired and blue eyed... I just tell em to shut up.
The places I get least harrassed are the back streets, the folk there are more interested in my money lol..
I tolerate so much, but on relentless days I flip. Yesterday this guy was just beginning to become white noise and would not back off. I saw blue mist coming down and just growled at him... maybe my reaction will stop him from bothering someone else!!!!!!!!
Yes,in fact my 2 harrasments in Egypt ever both took part in Tahrir.And im wayyyy more Egyptian looking than you both. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8: Yes,in fact my 2 harrasments in Egypt ever both took part in Tahrir.And im wayyyy more Egyptian looking than you both.
Yes, definitely. But it's not about looks, the guys there can usually tell by your manners etc. whether you're a tourist or a person living there going about their business. I very rarely get the annoying "welcome to Egypt" in that area either.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
So in conclusion it makes no odds how you dress or look the guys are still gonna bother you. Posted by Nasto (Member # 17091) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nasto:..... I wasn't being aware of any outburts, but I'm curious to know what it says about my brain.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nasto: ......
Do tell us about those ways. I'm sure millions of women in Cairo would be very grateful for the advice.
Dalia, Just re-read your own post addressing my comment. I find it offensive. No matter how much you are passionate about some topic it does not give you right to attack a person and question the existence of her/his brains. It’s just rude.
Regarding the advice, I do not see any point of restating the same things that have been said on this thread or on the thread regarding a black American coming to Egypt. No, I do not suggest that women should be held responsible for being harassed. But I also believe that educating and polishing men’ manners in this part of the world will require very long time. Just few days ago I came across an article that stated that 90 percent of Canadian women will experience sexual harassment at some point in their working lives. In Canada! So, here, in Egypt, if ever the stage when we can walk without being harassed will be reached, it will occur not in our lifetime. Hence, we need to learn avoiding.
As for me, I rarely walk the streets and when I have to go on open I ask some of the family or friends to accompany me. Even then I hear “welcome to Egypt” but I ignore it since I know that it won’t go any further.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Originally posted by Sashyra8: [QB]I made a similar loud scene like that on one of my Cairo visits while walking around Tahrir Sq. Seems that is a heavy area for harrasment since on that same place i had my butt slapped by another youngster,that time he ran off away [QB]
LOL..
*Slaps Sashy on butt and runs* Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Originally posted by Sashyra8: [QB]I made a similar loud scene like that on one of my Cairo visits while walking around Tahrir Sq. Seems that is a heavy area for harrasment since on that same place i had my butt slapped by another youngster,that time he ran off away [QB]
LOL..
*Slaps Sashy on butt and runs*
Sooo it was YOUUUUUU the slap and run dude,huh?
I must have suspected from the beginning!!!
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nasto:
Dalia, Just re-read your own post addressing my comment. I find it offensive. No matter how much you are passionate about some topic it does not give you right to attack a person and question the existence of her/his brains. It’s just rude.
Well, I found your comment rude, thus my reply.
As you can easily see from reading many of the comments in this thread, sexual harassment is not a laughing matter, it's a serious issue for many women here, and it's impacting the lifes of countless people. I find it more than just a bit offensive to flippantly say we should just be grateful for it. It also shows that you have not understood the core issue -- that harassment is not about flattery or attraction, but that it's a power game.
I'm sorry, but I believe a woman who finds harassment flattering has a problem with her self confidence imo. Personally, I get enough compliments about my looks from friends or acquaintances, those are the ones I find flattering. Random comments from lowlifes on the street are the opposite, they make me feel humiliated and disgusted.
quote:Originally posted by Nasto:
As for me, I rarely walk the streets and when I have to go on open I ask some of the family or friends to accompany me. Even then I hear “welcome to Egypt” but I ignore it since I know that it won’t go any further.
So your advice is that we should go out as little as possible, or have a male accompany us if we do? Do you really think that's practical and helpful? Well, I don't. I live in Cairo because I love it, and I also love the street life, why should I spend my time hiding away in my house -- surely that can't be a solution?
Also, many of us living here, me included, have jobs and a social life, so we have to be walking the streets. I don't have a husband or relatives, and it would be more than just a bit impractical to ask male friends to accompany me every time I need to go out.
I am also a bit confused because I find your comments on this thread contradictory. First you say you don't get harassed because you are supposedly too old. Then you say it's a matter of learning how to deal with it, and now you're saying the solution is going out as little as possible and only do it in company. So which one is it?
You say that Egypt will not change during our lifetimes, and you might be correct. But not staying silent about the issue is a first step. I remember when I first moved to Cairo the beginning of 2003 I was met with a wall of silence whenever I talked about it. Now I notice that people, particularly Egyptian women, are starting to talk about it more openly, and imo this is a positive development.
Posted by Nasto (Member # 17091) on :
Well, I am old but still retain some allure Besides, it is written all over me that I’m not an Egyptian which makes me a subject of additional attention. But I’ve learned my lesson and do not repeat my mistakes.
I am not saying that we should stay home. Drive your car, for example, or get a taxi driver who will pick you up when you need a ride. Many employers here provide transportation to their employees. If you need to walk go to a club where incidents of harassment are limited. I mean - reduce contact with the wild street, do not wonder around alone in certain places. But as you’ve said you like the street life. Hence, you expose yourself to unpleasant/annoying encounters.
Posted by Nine (Member # 17234) on :
I am not going to stop walking the streets and compromising my freedom becasue of dudes with foul mouths and dirty minds! I am opposed to it but certainly not scared of it.
I get harrassed IN taxis by TAXI DRIVERS... but I am not the shy retiring type and I always tell them my thoughts!!!
We all have ways of dealing with the verbal side of harrassment, we are all different. But mine works for me... hence I still go out and about at night on my own... Cocky lil ferret
I could hire myself out as a bodyguard!!!!!
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nasto: I am not saying that we should stay home. Drive your car, for example, or get a taxi driver who will pick you up when you need a ride. Many employers here provide transportation to their employees. If you need to walk go to a club where incidents of harassment are limited. I mean - reduce contact with the wild street, do not wonder around alone in certain places. But as you’ve said you like the street life. Hence, you expose yourself to unpleasant/annoying encounters.
I don't have a car and certainly don't want to own one in Cairo. I take taxis, the metro, and sometimes microbusses depending on where I have to go.
What you are writing above wouldn't work for me; as I said, I am not living in Cairo in order to hide away in houses and cars.
I live in Maadi, and do a lot of walking there, harassment is minimal compared to other parts of the city, so that's great.
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret:
I am not going to stop walking the streets and compromising my freedom becasue of dudes with foul mouths and dirty minds! I am opposed to it but certainly not scared of it.
Same here.
Posted by TigerLily (Member # 3567) on :
The nightmare of sexual harassment in Egypt
by Dalia Ziada 24 November 2009 in Egypt, Sexual Harassment, Women
It is the patriarchal mentality that holds women accountable for the mistakes of men.
Three years ago, a number of bloggers on their way back home after celebrating Eid el-Fitr in downtown Cairo, saw a group of men standing around Talaat Harb Street, harassing every woman passing by, including those wearing the full-veil, or niqab! The bloggers could not help but take photos of the shocking scene with their mobile phone cameras and published the incident online.
The shocking story was, then, picked up by different local and international media. Simultaneously, some women’s rights groups started calling for ending sexual harassment against women. Ordinary people, especially women, have been encouraged to speak more about their personal experiences with sexual harassment and are thinking of brilliant and creative ways to stop it.
Before this horrible incident in 2006, sexual harassment, either verbal or physical, was one of the biggest taboos in society and women did not dare to complain about it in public. Even the state-owned media kept telling illusionary statements about Egypt as “the safest country in the world” in comparison to other countries in the West where rates of harassment and rape are very high.
However, in the closed female communities, girls schools for instance, women used to speak a lot about the harassment they suffer in public transportation, in the street and sometimes from their male relatives or friends of the family. Sometimes, the women shared ideas, secretly, with each other on how they could protect themselves against harassment. Some young women, especially university students, usually carry weapons, sprays, or small pins, in their handbags to use when necessary to stop the one harassment.
Sexual harassment in Egypt has two forms; verbal and physical. The verbal harassment is like when a boy tells a girl passing by that she is so beautiful or says a word that indicates that he has some sexual interest in her. This does not include direct interaction between the victim and the perpetrator. A girl is usually instructed to go away and never talk to the man harassing her. If she did, every one will look down at her as an impolite girl! Moreover, the boy will be encouraged to harass her more if she responds to him in any way.
“Men are like dull dogs in the street. When you pass by them, they might bark at you,” said Karima, a middle-class, well-educated mother of five girls. “If you ignored them, they will not bark again. But if you responded to them, they will bite you. This is what I am telling my girls to do: to ignore the boys harassing them and go on their way.”
Physical harassment is absolutely every type of physical action toward a woman. This might include touching a woman’s body in a way that offends her; i.e. without her permission. This usually happens in the stuffed public transportation vehicles and sometimes in the subway and workplace. Unfortunately, women in Egypt did not have the courage to speak about this sort of harassment until after the famous incident of Noha Roushdy.
Noha is a young girl who was physically harassed by a truck driver. Noha did not follow the mother’s advice of “ignoring the dog barking at her.” Instead, she stopped him and took him to police station. Everyone blamed her for this, including the people who witnessed the incident with their own eyes and who know well that she was a victim. However, they were blaming her because she is a woman and she should not be so dare to fight with a man in the street, even if this man harassed her.
However, Noha won in the end the perpetrator was sentenced to three years in prison! The brave Noha encouraged other, ‘weaker’ women to take a stance and made men think hundreds of times before they approach a woman to harass, either physically or verbally. For sure, they do not want to spend years in jail for a pleasure that leads to no real sexual satisfaction.
The problem of sexual harassment in Egypt has to do with the general mentality of the society. Today’s Egypt is infected with two main diseases: religious extremism and patriarchy. Unfortunately, the only victim for both is the woman, who is always burdened with keeping the ‘honor’ of the family.
The religious nature of the Egyptian people, which once was one of their best characteristics, turned into a catastrophe when it grew – due to different political and economic influences – into religious extremism. The woman under this extremist society is always viewed as a sexual object, created only to please the man and satisfy his physical needs. Extremists always fail to view women as real human beings who are 100 percent equal to men.
At the same time, this trend of extremism puts people under physical and psychological depression and encourages men to think all the time that whenever they interact with a woman they will lose control over their physical desires. For them, the woman is a devil that should not mingle with men unless covered from head to toe; wears no perfume; and preferably never goes out of her home in order not to tempt men and spread vice in society!
“Do not blame me, you should blame her. She encouraged me to harass her.” You will hear this sentence from most of the men practicing harassment. They usually justify their actions by saying that the woman they are harassing is not covered, or wearing hijab, or she wears makeup, etc. Blaming women for the mistakes of men.
For a man who embraces such foolish ideas and looks down at women as a sexual object who forces him to lose his strength in controlling his desires, sexual harassment of women is always viewed as a right, not a mistake.
What does Islamic teaching say about men doing this sort of thing? And what do religious leaders say?
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan: What does Islamic teaching say about men doing this sort of thing?
Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, for that is better for them. God is fully aware of what you do. 24:30
Posted by basha (Member # 17145) on :
actually they are doing their best but no body listens
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by basha: actually they are doing their best
Who?
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Harassment across Arab world drives women inside
By SARAH EL DEEB (AP) – 17 hours ago
CAIRO — The sexual harassment of women in the streets, schools and work places of the Arab world is driving them to cover up and confine themselves to their homes, said activists at the first-ever regional conference addressing the once taboo topic.
Activists from 17 countries across the region met in Cairo for a two-day conference ending Monday and concluded that harassment was unchecked across the region because laws don't punish it, women don't report it and the authorities ignore it.
The harassment, including groping and verbal abuse, is a daily experience women in the region face and makes them wary of going into public spaces, whether it's the streets or jobs, the participants said. It happens regardless of what women are wearing.
With more and more women in schools, the workplace and politics, roles have changed but often traditional attitudes have not. Experts said in some places, like Egypt, harassment appears sometimes to be out of vengeance, from men blaming women for denied work opportunities.
Amal Madbouli, who wears the conservative face veil or niqab, told The Associated Press that despite her dress, she is harassed and described how a man came after her in the streets of her neighborhood.
"He hissed at me and kept asking me if I wanted to go with him to a quieter area, and to give him my phone number," said Madbouli, a mother of two. "This is a national security issue. I am a mother, and I want to be reassured when my daughters go out on the streets."
Statistics on harassment in the region have until recently been nonexistent, but a series of studies presented at the conference hinted at the widespread nature of the problem.
As many as 90 percent of Yemeni women say they have been harassed, while in Egypt, out of a sample of 1,000, 83 percent reported being verbally or physically abused.
A study in Lebanon reported that more than 30 percent of women said they had been harassed there.
"We are facing a phenomena that is limiting women's right to move ... and is threatening women's participation in all walks of life," said Nehad Abul Komsan, an Egyptian activist who organized the event with funding from the U.N. and the Swedish development agency.
Harassment has long been a problem in Mideast nations. But it was little discussed until three years ago, when blogs gave posted amateur videos showing a crowd of men assaulting women in downtown Cairo during a major Muslim holiday in one of the most shocking harassment incidents in the region.
The public outcry sparked an unprecedented public acknowledgment of the problem in Egypt and elsewhere in the region, and drove the Egyptian government to consider two draft bills addressing sexual harassment.
Sexual harassment, including verbal and physical assault, has been specifically criminalized in only half a dozen Arab countries over the past five years. Most of the 22 Arab states outlaw overtly violent acts like rape or lewd acts in public areas, according to a study by Abul Komsan.
Participants at the conference said men are threatened by an increasingly active female labor force, with conservatives laying the blame for harassment on women's dress and behavior.
In Syria, men from traditional homes go shopping in the market place instead of female family members to spare them harassment, said Sherifa Zuhur, a Lebanese-American academic at the conference.
Abul Komsan described how one of the victims of harassment she interviewed told her she had taken on the full-face veil to stave off the hassle.
"She told me 'I have put on the niqab. By God, what more can I do so they leave me alone,'" she said, quoting the woman. Some even said they were reconsidering going to work or school because of the constant harassment in the streets and on public transpiration.
Where segregation between the sexes is the norm and women are sheltered by religious or tribal customs, cases of sexual harassment are still common at homes and in the times when women must venture out, whether to markets, hospitals or government offices.
In Yemen, where nearly all women are covered from head to toe, activist Amal Basha said 90 percent of women in a published study reported harassment, specifically pinching.
"The religious leaders are always blaming the women, making them live in a constant state of fear because out there, someone is following them," she said.
If a harassment case is reported in Yemen, Basha added, traditional leaders interfere to cover it up, remove the evidence or terrorize the victim.
In Saudi Arabia, another country where women cover themselves completely and are nearly totally segregated from men in public life, women report harassment as well, according to Saudi activist Majid al-Eissa.
His organization, the National Family Safety Program, has been helping draft a law criminalizing violence against women in the conservative kingdom, where flirting can often cross the line into outright assault. Discussion of the law begins Tuesday.
"It will take time especially in this part of the world to absorb the gender mixture and the role each gender can play in society," he said. "We are coping with changes (of modern life), except in our minds."
AFP - Egypt's deputy parliament speaker said women needed a law to protect them from sexual harassment which had reached "savage" levels in the country, Al-Destour newspaper reported on Tuesday.
"There must be a law to protect Egyptian society from collapse," the newspaper quoted Zeinab Radwan as telling a conference on sexual harassment on Monday.
"There is a savage attack on Egyptian women with sexual harassment on the streets. It has gone beyond all limits with the harassment of children," she said.
Sociologist Ibtihal Rashad, who also attended the conference, agreed and said: "There is no protection for the 18 million (female) citizens of Egypt who are affected."
Women's rights groups in Egypt have long campaigned against sexual harassment and assault in Cairo, accusing police of ignoring the phenomenon.
Convictions are relatively rare in Egypt, which does not have a law defining sexual harassment, but a court in 2008 sentenced a man to three years in jail for groping a woman.
According to the Egyptian Centre for Women's Right, which organised the conference, 83 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women in Egypt had experienced sexual harassment.
The 2008 study said only 12 percent of the 2,500 women who reported cases of sexual harassment to ECWR went to the police with their complaint.
I wonder when anything will happen in favor of women in Egypt. It's a shame and disgrace what's going on.
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: I wonder when anything will happen in favor of women in Egypt. It's a shame and disgrace what's going on.
this the only thing Dog lilly and her other log in names wants the world to know about Egypt !!
sexual harassments gigolos ripping tourists off tourists are getting killed in Egypt Drugs
and imagine anything bad and you will find in her 30.000 posts
Now i have to run , i am late but first i have to get my drug dose ,drive my car and kill some western , **** i run out of benzen ,,no worries i ll stop by and ripe some tourists off ,,,full tank boy and quick ,,i still have to sexually harassment some poor undertroden Egyptian women,,, hey women do not scream or fight ,,i have no time to waste because my 90 years old girl friend are waiting for me after she gets ripped of by my brother ,and sex-H by my cousin.... **** ,,she is not here ,,her phone is off ,,,oh Devil ,,she gets killed in a car accident by my uncle
And you want me to believe she wants to improve Egypt and she is not doing this in purpose and she is not paid by some dirty organization ::
run to supermarket and replace my mind with a naive one made in china ,,,wait for me please i ll come back sweet,ass liker and full supported of doglilly great work
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: this the only thing Dog lilly and her other log in names wants the world to know about Egypt !!
The world knows about this already. Travel guides and embassies are warning people about the sexual harassment they will experience in Egypt. And if you talk to women who have travelled to Egypt, this is often the first thing they will talk about. If I tell people back home I'm living in Cairo, I very often get asked how I manage to deal with this.
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, this problem will damage tourism in the long run. So if you are so concerned about your country and its image, you should contribute towards solving the problem, instead of whining that people are talking about it, don't you think?
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
M.E. I have to agree....
sexual harassments gigolos ripping tourists off tourists are getting killed in Egypt Drugs
appear to be the few topics regular posters are willing to discuss.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by MotherEgypt: this the only thing Dog lilly and her other log in names wants the world to know about Egypt !!
The world knows about this already. Travel guides and embassies are warning people about the sexual harassment they will experience in Egypt. And if you talk to women who have travelled to Egypt, this is often the first thing they will talk about. If I tell people back home I'm living in Cairo, I very often get asked how I manage to deal with this.
As has been mentioned earlier in this thread, this problem will damage tourism in the long run. So if you are so concerned about your country and its image, you should contribute towards solving the problem, instead of whining that people are talking about it, don't you think?
How does a bunch of khawagaas "talking online" solve anything?
And statistically how does Egypt fare in these few situations comparative to other nations? Regular posters go on a blue streak like it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world.
Yet the ES characters who are obessed with these few subjects won't discuss anything nice about Egypt.
It makes you wonder, especailly the ES characters who don't live there and have only been in Egypt a few times bother to post on ES at all?
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Originally posted by metinoot: M.E. I have to agree....
sexual harassments gigolos ripping tourists off tourists are getting killed in Egypt Drugs
appear to be the few topics regular posters are willing to discuss.
Add to this an abused khawaga wife locked up by some sleaze bag refusing to give her money, food and key..seeking a visa. Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Originally posted by metinoot: M.E. I have to agree....
sexual harassments gigolos ripping tourists off tourists are getting killed in Egypt Drugs
appear to be the few topics regular posters are willing to discuss.
Add to this an abused khawaga wife locked up by some sleaze bag refusing to give her money, food and key..seeking a visa.
And this current ESers is probably the 8th woman to ask for help in the last 3 years concerning confinement.
8th woman.... versus 50-200 nonsensical, idiotic, off topic and very egy-bashing crap that never ends.
Dzozzer with all the egybashing that goes on ES why does this woman bother you? Because it could easily happen to an Egyptian woman as well?
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
What bothers me Sono is that the whole thing is a scam posted by a regular ESer who's bored and needs to make up a story about Egyptian men and how they abuse khawaga women..nothing is true.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: What bothers me Sono is that the whole thing is a scam posted by a regular ESer who's bored and needs to make up a story about Egyptian men and how they abuse khawaga women..nothing is true.
How do you know it isn't true?
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
How would a prisoner of Zenda parachute haphazardly on ES by mere coincidence without even mentioning a word about how the hell she discovered our beloved forum ??? Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
Add to this an abused khawaga wife locked up by some sleaze bag refusing to give her money, food and key..seeking a visa. [/QB][/QUOTE]
if you mean this lady in helwan as she said ,,,please read her post carefully ,,she is fooling us ,,,she says she is an American but can not speak proper English ,, and her story is very broken pieces.. she is using the internet to post in Es but in the same time she can not send an e mail her embassy i have sent her a message asking her to give me her address and i ll get her out of this situation without any troubles ,,,,but never replies ! by the way i do not deny such a thing in Egypt as i see it all over the world as well ..
but again any of you accepting a 19 years old boy friend she has to understand this is an exchange deal ,,she get sex and he gets money ,,,all of them know that fact but they go blind till she can not afford any more paying for sex ,,and she starts crying why a 19 years old guy sleeps with his grand mother or mama if he has sweet Russians every where looking for proper life and proper boy friend to start a family or to have a healthy equal relation.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
It makes you wonder, especailly the ES characters who don't live there and have only been in Egypt a few times bother to post on ES at all?
yes sono, why do you still bother? Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
It makes you wonder, especailly the ES characters who don't live there and have only been in Egypt a few times bother to post on ES at all?
yes sono, why do you still bother?
Because I am tied to Egypt for life.
You on the other hand are not, nor are you legally working, legally married nor legally residing in Egypt. Yet you remain... Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: How would a prisoner of Zenda parachute haphazardly on ES by mere coincidence without even mentioning a word about how the hell she discovered our beloved forum ???
I found ES by search engine.
I "piggy backed" on other's wireless signals until I hunkered down and bought wireless access last August.
She stated she is Lebanese and was married at age 16 then brought to the USA. This is about the only way an Arab woman can enter the USA and gain citizenship.
Her situation isn't pleasant, but it least its personal. Because she isnt throwing down uselss insults and exeragerations its to be taken seriously.
She's not joking around, she isn't fun, its personal, and she's in crisis.
Naturally her posts are fun, they aren't an online party so therefore you must figure out how to force her out.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Sono...any person with little common sense (Neanderthal) knows how to SAVE some money aside for emergencies like going into hospital or at least medication, food or clothing, let alone money for a taxi to the embassy.
Once she's inside her embassy it becomes possible for her to contact her folks for anything that would put her back on a plane home.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Sono...any person with little common sense (Neanderthal) knows how to SAVE some money aside for emergencies like going into hospital or at least medication, food or clothing, let alone money for a taxi to the embassy.
Once she's inside her embassy it becomes possible for her to contact her folks for anything that would put her back on a plane home.
Right now 4 different western (khawagaa) ESers don't have emergency money set aside. They sold everything they own and handed all their money to their gigolos. Can I mark quoted post above that when any one of these four khawagaas need emergency help and a way out of Egypt you will give them heck, belittle, patronize and deny their circumstances?
It'll be a wager between you and I.
Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
You really have to have an income to save money. If someone is not being given a penny how can they possibly save for a taxi ride?
And speaking of Embassies...someone told me recently if I ever travel around remote areas of Egypt I should hide my American passport and claim to be Canadian. Why? Figure it out.
Furthermore, it is not the embassy's job to rescue damsels in distress. She didn't come online and ask us to rescue her either. She just wanted to vent her frustrations.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
How do you know they've not saved some dough for the great escape ?? They're on ES and know this could happen to them any day.
I talked to a young British girl on a flight to Luxor madly in love with a felluca guy and told me he doesn't want her for money, I told her its the visa he's after, she swore that he's already married with kids and never will leave his hometown Luxor..I wanted to put her on the next flight back to London, but what the heck..its her life after all. Posted by * 7ayat * (Member # 7043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: How do you know they've not saved some dough for the great escape ?? They're on ES and know this could happen to them any day.
I talked to a young British girl on a flight to Luxor madly in love with a felluca guy and told me he doesn't want her for money, I told her its the visa he's after, she swore that he's already married with kids and never will leave his hometown Luxor..I wanted to put her on the next flight back to London, but what the heck..its her life after all.
See this is what I don't understand. Why do these women go for men who are married? Isn't this considered cheating?
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
7ayat cheating is genetic in our country..we both know that, I'm sorry but its the truth.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: How do you know they've not saved some dough for the great escape ?? They're on ES and know this could happen to them any day.
Because these gals are plum dry, as in not having to file taxes in their home nation and not having enough to pay land taxes for a home not registered in their name!
Also not having money for air fare for a trip home for the holidays, family transitions, getting sued... they don't have an emergency fund. Its all gone.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Legally an embassy is responsible for the safe return of its respective citizens, well being and protection..if a chick knows how to find her way to a man of any kind, she obviously can find her way to her own embassy.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Legally an embassy is responsible for the safe return of its respective citizens, well being and protection..if a chick knows how to find her way to a man of any kind, she obviously can find her way to her own embassy.
Dude do we have a wager?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
It makes you wonder, especailly the ES characters who don't live there and have only been in Egypt a few times bother to post on ES at all?
yes sono, why do you still bother?
Because I am tied to Egypt for life.
You on the other hand are not, nor are you legally working, legally married nor legally residing in Egypt. Yet you remain...
tied to Egypt for life, so you have been told and accepted you will never have your daughter back. I work legally I am legally married I am residing in Egypt legally.
you are not here, you are living a reasonably life in USA when your kid is living in a third world country being cheated out of a better life and education because her mother would rather be fooking around with different men, on and offline. Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Originally posted by metinoot: Dude do we have a wager?
Hell no !! I don't take rubber checks... Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Legally an embassy is responsible for the safe return of its respective citizens, well being and protection..
In matters of life and death only. Not to be rescued from bad marriages.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
It makes you wonder, especailly the ES characters who don't live there and have only been in Egypt a few times bother to post on ES at all?
yes sono, why do you still bother?
Because I am tied to Egypt for life.
You on the other hand are not, nor are you legally working, legally married nor legally residing in Egypt. Yet you remain...
tied to Egypt for life, so you have been told and accepted you will never have your daughter back. I work legally I am legally married I am residing in Egypt legally.
you are not here, you are living a reasonably life in USA when your kid is living in a third world country being cheated out of a better life and education because her mother would rather be fooking around with different men, on and offline.
Ayisha you don't know my family circumstances. You don't know how I am doing financially, I make good pay but I am on reduced hours due to the economy while still paying full student loan payments. My daughter is going to a private school accredited by the US State department, she is recieving a US education. She is having a vastly superior childhood to what either me or my spouse had. Her living standards aren't poverty she lives among the top 5% of Egypt while both my ex and I are living below middle class for sure though we are being paid middle class wages.
our money goes to our child, your money goes to your second gigolo.
I do know that if you were legally married you'd have a residency permit instead of a tourist visa.
You don't pay taxes to the Egyptian revenue, your boss direct deposits your pay into your UK bank account without reporting your earnings to the Egyptian revenue service.
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
It makes you wonder, especailly the ES characters who don't live there and have only been in Egypt a few times bother to post on ES at all?
yes sono, why do you still bother?
Because I am tied to Egypt for life.
You on the other hand are not, nor are you legally working, legally married nor legally residing in Egypt. Yet you remain...
tied to Egypt for life, so you have been told and accepted you will never have your daughter back. I work legally I am legally married I am residing in Egypt legally.
you are not here, you are living a reasonably life in USA when your kid is living in a third world country being cheated out of a better life and education because her mother would rather be fooking around with different men, on and offline.
Ayisha you don't know my family circumstances. You don't know how I am doing financially, I make good pay but I am on reduced hours due to the economy while still paying full student loan payments. My daughter is going to a private school accredited by the US State department, she is recieving a US education. She is having a vastly superior childhood to what either me or my spouse had. Her living standards aren't poverty she lives among the top 5% of Egypt while both my ex and I are living below middle class for sure though we are being paid middle class wages.
our money goes to our child, your money goes to your second gigolo.
I do know that if you were legally married you'd have a residency permit instead of a tourist visa.
You don't pay taxes to the Egyptian revenue, your boss direct deposits your pay into your UK bank account without reporting your earnings to the Egyptian revenue service.
damn good delusion
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Originally posted by metinoot: Dude do we have a wager?
Hell no !! I don't take rubber checks...
All I betting is that when one of these four lasses hit bottom and is shown the door, needs help getting out of Egypt or just wants to vent that you will be sympathic to them purely because they are khawagaa.
I am convinced the reason why you don't show this woman mercy is because she is Arab and only for that reason.
You won't question the circumstances of a down and out khawagaa, but you'll be malicious toward a Arab woman.
Thats the wager!
You won't agree to the wager because you know I am right!
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Originally posted by Clear and QSY: In matters of life and death only. Not to be rescued from bad marriages.
The woman's dying of malnutrition, exposed to fraudulent conduct (no money), is in ill health (hair/weight loss)..isn't that a life and death situation ?? Come on Mini.. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
sono, you dont know my circumstances either so how can you make these assumptions about my life here? I am paid in Egyptian pounds, in cash and there are records of it, I have a legal work permit, come here and I will show you. You have absolutely NO proof of anything you say, same as you never have when you build peoples fantasy lives. I LIVE here sono, I KNOW what schools are like here, even what you call private ones. Im glad your kid is doing better than you did, but I KNOW thats not true either, thats just the fantasy YOU built for yourself to get through.
Now if you really think what you say is true please feel free to report me to Luxor police or Mr Gaddis the Honorary British consul in Luxor. The Labour Dept visited 2 weeks ago and the police last week, Luxor Tourist Police have all my details and copies of passport and work permit.
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Sono Arab is also foreign to us Egyptians, we must help them out like Khawagas..the same.
No deal.. Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: Originally posted by Clear and QSY: In matters of life and death only. Not to be rescued from bad marriages.
The woman's dying of malnutrition, exposed to fraudulent conduct (no money), is in ill health (hair/weight loss)..isn't that a life and death situation ?? Come on Mini..
The only case she has with the Embassy is to expose herself as being in a sham marriage. They won't do anything to help her other than to tell her they will assist a relative of hers to make a wire transfer for her to buy a plane ticket out. That is assuming she has someone she can contact on the other end. This is why the embassy gives such a hard time to Americans seeking marriage affidavits. It is a bureaucracy after all - wrapped up in as much red tape as any other governmental agency. Now, perhaps if she gets kidnapped by the PLO or Hamas that might be considered a matter of life and death.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sono, you dont know my circumstances either so how can you make these assumptions about my life here? I am paid in Egyptian pounds, in cash and there are records of it, I have a legal work permit, come here and I will show you. You have absolutely NO proof of anything you say, same as you never have when you build peoples fantasy lives. I LIVE here sono, I KNOW what schools are like here, even what you call private ones. Im glad your kid is doing better than you did, but I KNOW thats not true either, thats just the fantasy YOU built for yourself to get through.
Now if you really think what you say is true please feel free to report me to Luxor police or Mr Gaddis the Honorary British consul in Luxor. The Labour Dept visited 2 weeks ago and the police last week, Luxor Tourist Police have all my details and copies of passport and work permit.
scan the work permit and the records of your "cash payment" wages. Then post these scanned documents to ES. Otherwise I'll take the word of your American employer.
And in regards to my daughter's school you don't even know what school and which town the school is in.
By any chance have you even walked into an Egyptian school private or public?
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
LOL @ PLO.. You mean Qaeda I guess. Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: LOL @ PLO.. You mean Qaeda I guess.
No. I meant PLO. I was being sarcastic. She could get kidnapped by the French Foreign Leigon for all it matters.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sono, you dont know my circumstances either so how can you make these assumptions about my life here? I am paid in Egyptian pounds, in cash and there are records of it, I have a legal work permit, come here and I will show you. You have absolutely NO proof of anything you say, same as you never have when you build peoples fantasy lives. I LIVE here sono, I KNOW what schools are like here, even what you call private ones. Im glad your kid is doing better than you did, but I KNOW thats not true either, thats just the fantasy YOU built for yourself to get through.
Now if you really think what you say is true please feel free to report me to Luxor police or Mr Gaddis the Honorary British consul in Luxor. The Labour Dept visited 2 weeks ago and the police last week, Luxor Tourist Police have all my details and copies of passport and work permit.
scan the work permit and the records of your "cash payment" wages. Then post these scanned documents to ES. Otherwise I'll take the word of your American employer.
yeah right , just get on with reporting me, that could be fun my end and another blot for you
quote:And in regards to my daughter's school you don't even know what school and which town the school is in.
scan official school documents to prove she is in a private school and which one. She doesnt even speak English so how you would know anything about her anyway!
quote:By any chance have you even walked into an Egyptian school private or public?
duh yeah, I LIVE here remember. Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sono, you dont know my circumstances either so how can you make these assumptions about my life here? I am paid in Egyptian pounds, in cash and there are records of it, I have a legal work permit, come here and I will show you. You have absolutely NO proof of anything you say, same as you never have when you build peoples fantasy lives. I LIVE here sono, I KNOW what schools are like here, even what you call private ones. Im glad your kid is doing better than you did, but I KNOW thats not true either, thats just the fantasy YOU built for yourself to get through.
Now if you really think what you say is true please feel free to report me to Luxor police or Mr Gaddis the Honorary British consul in Luxor. The Labour Dept visited 2 weeks ago and the police last week, Luxor Tourist Police have all my details and copies of passport and work permit.
scan the work permit and the records of your "cash payment" wages. Then post these scanned documents to ES. Otherwise I'll take the word of your American employer.
yeah right , just get on with reporting me, that could be fun my end and another blot for you
quote:And in regards to my daughter's school you don't even know what school and which town the school is in.
scan official school documents to prove she is in a private school and which one. She doesnt even speak English so how you would know anything about her anyway!
quote:By any chance have you even walked into an Egyptian school private or public?
duh yeah, I LIVE here remember.
You're forgetting that my child deserves privacy away from adult squabbles, but you probably don't have that as part of your moral code.
Her papers of grade level graduation are always in English. And half of her classes are taught in English. She knows at least 10 times the amount of words you know in Arabic she knows of English.
Val you live in Luxor, but do you live anywhere near a school? Probably not.
Most everyone on Luxor4u and half this board knows your real name and where you work so posting your work permit papers wouldn't be an invasion of privacy.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: sono, you dont know my circumstances either so how can you make these assumptions about my life here? I am paid in Egyptian pounds, in cash and there are records of it, I have a legal work permit, come here and I will show you. You have absolutely NO proof of anything you say, same as you never have when you build peoples fantasy lives. I LIVE here sono, I KNOW what schools are like here, even what you call private ones. Im glad your kid is doing better than you did, but I KNOW thats not true either, thats just the fantasy YOU built for yourself to get through.
Now if you really think what you say is true please feel free to report me to Luxor police or Mr Gaddis the Honorary British consul in Luxor. The Labour Dept visited 2 weeks ago and the police last week, Luxor Tourist Police have all my details and copies of passport and work permit.
scan the work permit and the records of your "cash payment" wages. Then post these scanned documents to ES. Otherwise I'll take the word of your American employer.
yeah right , just get on with reporting me, that could be fun my end and another blot for you
quote:And in regards to my daughter's school you don't even know what school and which town the school is in.
scan official school documents to prove she is in a private school and which one. She doesnt even speak English so how you would know anything about her anyway!
quote:By any chance have you even walked into an Egyptian school private or public?
duh yeah, I LIVE here remember.
You're forgetting that my child deserves privacy away from adult squabbles, but you probably don't have that as part of your moral code.
privacy away from adult squabbles is why shes thousands of miles away from you, your ex and your family.
quote:Her papers of grade level graduation are always in English. And half of her classes are taught in English. She knows at least 10 times the amount of words you know in Arabic she knows of English.
if you say it enough it still wont be true sono.
quote:Val you live in Luxor, but do you live anywhere near a school? Probably not.
3 I can HEAR every morning.
quote:Most everyone on Luxor4u and half this board knows your real name and where you work so posting your work permit papers wouldn't be an invasion of privacy.
then get one of them to come to my work and I will SHOW them my papers.
now feck off and work towards 'relocating' to raise your daughter, worry about your **** YOU got into, not mine. Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: privacy away from adult squabbles is why shes thousands of miles away from you, your ex and your family.
quote:Her papers of grade level graduation are always in English. And half of her classes are taught in English. She knows at least 10 times the amount of words you know in Arabic she knows of English.
if you say it enough it still wont be true sono.
quote:Val you live in Luxor, but do you live anywhere near a school? Probably not.
3 I can HEAR every morning.
quote:Most everyone on Luxor4u and half this board knows your real name and where you work so posting your work permit papers wouldn't be an invasion of privacy.
then get one of them to come to my work and I will SHOW them my papers.
now feck off and work towards 'relocating' to raise your daughter, worry about your **** YOU got into, not mine.
You've never met my child you have no idea what language she speaks.
If you have any further information it would come from Kal because we all know Lanie lives in Texas. And we both remember what intentions both Kal and Lanie had towards getting into contact with my kid, you were supportive of both their psychosis.
Very telling of how badly you need to get back onto depression medication.
2. if you had work papers then the last woman who went in there to size up the place to verify if she wanted to buy it from your employer wouldn't have had hessitations buying the place. No one wants to buy a business that has you on the payroll and is breaking labor laws by having you work there illegally.
3. Since you need to swear and swear in the same sentence as refring to my child I'll take it as a positive that your love interest hasn't spent the night at your new apartment.
Who knows, he could have gotten married already and is finally starting a family to prove he isn't a fag after all. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: privacy away from adult squabbles is why shes thousands of miles away from you, your ex and your family.
quote:Her papers of grade level graduation are always in English. And half of her classes are taught in English. She knows at least 10 times the amount of words you know in Arabic she knows of English.
if you say it enough it still wont be true sono.
quote:Val you live in Luxor, but do you live anywhere near a school? Probably not.
3 I can HEAR every morning.
quote:Most everyone on Luxor4u and half this board knows your real name and where you work so posting your work permit papers wouldn't be an invasion of privacy.
then get one of them to come to my work and I will SHOW them my papers.
now feck off and work towards 'relocating' to raise your daughter, worry about your **** YOU got into, not mine.
You've never met my child you have no idea what language she speaks.
so you have met me and know how much Arabic I speak??
quote:If you have any further information it would come from Kal because we all know Lanie lives in Texas. And we both remember what intentions both Kal and Lanie had towards getting into contact with my kid, you were supportive of both their psychosis.
saying Smucks is in Texas wont make it so, she is in SHEBIN where your daughter is, I know you hate that some other American had the balls to move and you dont, deal with it.
quote:Very telling of how badly you need to get back onto depression medication.
did you see shrink 3, 4, 5 and 6? the first 2 could do nothing to help you could they, or the meds.
quote:2. if you had work papers then the last woman who went in there to size up the place to verify if she wanted to buy it from your employer wouldn't have had hessitations buying the place. No one wants to buy a business that has you on the payroll and is breaking labor laws by having you work there illegally.
business not for sale, call the labour office, report me, PLEASE report me, I would dance when your name gets black marked here. Anyone buying if it was for sale can easy turn out anyone they dont want here, you dont have a clue.
quote:3. Since you need to swear and swear in the same sentence as refring to my child I'll take it as a positive that your love interest hasn't spent the night at your new apartment.
ahh that sono logic, love it! If it wasnt my husband I untangled myself from in bed this morning it sure looked a hell of a lot like him
quote:Who knows, he could have gotten married already and is finally starting a family to prove he isn't a fag after all.
I take it from that you havent had a man for a while? Posted by * 7ayat * (Member # 7043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: 7ayat cheating is genetic in our country..we both know that, I'm sorry but its the truth.
True. But I am asking about the Western women. I mean this girl you met told you that her guy is married with kids, so why was she going to meet him???
Posted by Clear and QSY (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: 7ayat cheating is genetic in our country..we both know that, I'm sorry but its the truth.
True. But I am asking about the Western women. I mean this girl you met told you that her guy is married with kids, so why was she going to meet him???
It is a strange Phenomenon indeed. I think the problem stems from them not having a complete and full understanding of Islam in the contemporary world and just accept it at face value that "he is allowed to have four wives".
Posted by MotherEgypt (Member # 3700) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clear and QSY:
quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: 7ayat cheating is genetic in our country..we both know that, I'm sorry but its the truth.
True. But I am asking about the Western women. I mean this girl you met told you that her guy is married with kids, so why was she going to meet him???
It is a strange Phenomenon indeed. I think the problem stems from them not having a complete and full understanding of Islam in the contemporary world and just accept it at face value that "he is allowed to have four wives".
you are every where TIGERLILLY Now we move from Egypt to Islam Can you tell me why do you care so much ?
you are not Egyptian you do not live in Egypt you have nothing to do with Egypt
so why your so fuzzy about it dear ? Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: You're forgetting that my child
Haha that's the best thing what I've heard so far today!!
Face the reality: YOU DON'T HAVE A CHILD. Someone else is bringing up this kid because you didn't wanna do it. She didn't fit into your plans.
Then the marriage with your Egyptian ended in a disaster and you got nothing left.
CONGRATULATIONS. Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Originally posted by Clear and QSY:
quote:Originally posted by * 7ayat *:
quote:Originally posted by Dzosser: 7ayat cheating is genetic in our country..we both know that, I'm sorry but its the truth.
True. But I am asking about the Western women. I mean this girl you met told you that her guy is married with kids, so why was she going to meet him???
It is a strange Phenomenon indeed. I think the problem stems from them not having a complete and full understanding of Islam in the contemporary world and just accept it at face value that "he is allowed to have four wives".
Its the concept that foreign women are considered easy and made for fun, just like smoking hash and drinking booze are known to be Haram, however they still do it..the lower class (felluca man) consider anything away from their home as ethically accepted, as long as they don't involve the family (wife and kids) into it..that's basically how orfi starts to materialise aka 'Orfi 101'. Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
What women need
A recent Cairo conference suggests that the sexual harassment of women is becoming a pan-Arab phenomenon, reports Enjy El-Naggar
Three months ago on the first day of Eid Al-Fitr, the Egyptian police reported over 1,000 cases of sexual harassment in Cairo and Giza. However, last month on the first day of Eid Al-Adha, the number had plummeted to 160 reported cases. It seems that the sharp decline was due to "natural causes", since the first day of Eid Al-Adha saw heavy rains that kept most people at home.
Over the past few years, sexual harassment in Egypt has evolved into a seasonal activity occurring during the holidays, and this has caused NGOs and human-rights organisations to sound the alarm.
In response to increasing calls for combating the phenomenon, the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights (ECWR), in collaboration with the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA) and the Swedish International Development Cooperation Agency (SIDA), organised a regional conference, "Sexual Harassment as Social Violence and its Effect on Women in the Middle East and North Africa Region", which debated different forms of violence against women at the top of which was sexual harassment.
The conference, which hosted women leaders from 16 Arab counties in addition to international experts, aimed at understanding sexual violence as a form of social violence and how it impedes women's participation in the public space. Participants exchanged experiences from their respective countries on ways of addressing and combating sexual violence and consolidating efforts, improving coordination and fostering collaboration between countries in the region.
"We were thinking about the idea of the conference one year ago after the Safer Streets for All campaign, which was launched in 2007," Nehad Abul-Qomsan, director of ECWR, told Al-Ahram Weekly. "The conference is not only about tackling sexual harassment, it also aims to discuss all kinds of violence against women," she added.
Recent studies conducted by women's rights organisations have shown that the phenomenon is on the rise. In 2008, a study by the Centre for Public Mobilisation and Statistics (CAPMAS) showed that 47 per cent of Egyptian women between 15 and 49 had been victims of domestic violence, and seven per cent reported rape by their husbands.
In the Al-Nadim Centre's most recent 2009 study, 79 per cent (991 of 1,262 women) of those surveyed reported domestic violence. In addition, an alarming 55 per cent of women reported experiencing some form of domestic abuse or violence from their husbands, 20 per cent from their fathers and 12 per cent from their brothers.
"Sexual harassment is linked to other forms of discrimination and violence against women in complex ways," said Sherifa Zuhur, director of the US-based Institute of Middle Eastern, Islamic and Strategic Studies. "It is not a banal or trivial matter, and we are here because it has been an epidemic in Egypt for many years," she said during the first session of the conference.
However, such harassment turned out not to be a uniquely Egyptian preserve. Sixteen Arab participants at the two-day conference presented papers about violence against women in their countries. In Qatar, for example, a study conducted in 2006 stated that some 509 of 2,787 Qatari women had experienced violent behaviour and ill- treatment by men in the family (husbands, brothers or fathers). These facts were supported by another study on domestic violence conducted in 2007.
The situation in another Gulf country, Oman, was no better. According to a study by Omani journalist Maysa El-Hanie, a reporter at the newspaper Fetoon, 11 per cent of women face harassment in different ways in work, whether verbal, physical, or in remarks tarnishing their reputation.
At least 56 per cent of Omani women working in offices experienced verbal harassment. Meanwhile, the reputations of female workers in shops and in the military and medical sectors were more likely to be tarnished, making such women feel alienated from society. The study also showed that those who work in menial jobs are the most vulnerable to the worst forms of physical harassment.
In Saudi Arabia, where all women are veiled, the phenomenon takes a different shape. The Saudi Human Rights Association has received reports of some 1,164 cases of domestic violence, according to Al-Jawhara Mohamed Al-Wabli, chair of the King Abdel-Aziz Female Charity Association.
Al-Wabli reported different kinds of violence, mainly domestic, against women, including physical, psychological, social and sexual violence. "Talking about sexual harassment remains a taboo topic in Saudi Arabia, and therefore we don't have exact statistics about this problem as most incidents are unreported," Al-Wabli said.
Arab women's reluctance to report sexual harassment is part and parcel of the mushrooming phenomenon. In Egypt, for example, Noha Roshdi, a girl who was sexually harassed in 2008 and took her harasser to court, broke an established habit of silence in such cases. The harasser was sentenced to three years in prison and fined LE5,000 in the unprecedented case.
Yet, women in other Arab countries have yet to break the mould. "Women in Oman think a million times before they report sexual harassment to the police, whether they are married or not," said Mariam Abdallah El-Nahwai, an Omani researcher in women's and children's affairs at the Omani Association of Writers and Authors. "Their reluctance to report harassment stems from a fear of the social stigma," she said.
In Yemen, the problem is even more complicated since women are reluctant to report harassment cases and the law does not provide protection for them against intimidation. "The absence of clear-cut legislation that provides punishment for sexual harassment, combined with a lack of interest by police in reports by women about any kind of harassment, aggravates the situation," said Yemeni lawyer Ishraq Fadl Al-Moqtori.
Even in countries where there is legislation that protects women against harassment, punishment for sexual harassment is still asymmetrical. "Even though the law provides severe punishments for those who commit rape or threaten women's lives, there are still many differences in the levels of punishment," said Kaltham Al-Ghanim, a professor of sociology at the University of Qatar. "These differences indicate discrimination against women," she added.
Despite the fact that many countries in the Arab world have taken legal steps towards combating sexual harassment, gaps in legislation and enforcement mechanisms still exist that hinder the abolition of all forms of violence against women and aggravate reticence in the surrounding culture. According to the participants at the conference, in many Arab countries there is an urgent need for laws that prohibit violence or harassment against women.
In addition, women subject to sexual harassment often receive unfair trials because judges issue rulings according to their convictions rather than according to the law. "The law in almost all Arab countries lacks accurate legal texts condemning harassment crimes," said Mary Rose Zalzal, a Lebanese human-rights activist. Zalzal added that while some states have endorsed texts giving women legal protection against sexual harassment, the perpetrators of these crimes often remain unpunished because of difficulties in prosecuting such cases.
Zuhur concurs, saying that "the law does not recognise women's individual rights, but treats sexual harassment or assaults on women as a violation of their tribes' or their male relatives' rights [under customary law, or urf ], or as a violation of the public interest and Islamic order [under Sharia law], or, most recently, of a husband's rights over his wife's body," she said. When it comes to sexual harassment in the streets, this is often treated as a minor infraction of public order and not a serious offence.
Zuhur stressed that governments should encourage women to register complaints and should protect them through legislation as well as through consistently enforced punishments. Educational and media efforts should also be made, she said. "Judges, police, legislators, government authorities, parents, teachers, workers, employers, ordinary citizen observers, social leaders, men and women are not equally convinced that harassment or any other forms of violence against women are ongoing, wrong, and can have serious impacts," she added.
Some of the papers presented at the conference showed the negative impacts of sexual harassment in the work place on women and on the society as a whole. Sexual harassment in private or in the work place can result in a lack of focus, deteriorating professional performance, a decline in productivity, or even severe psychological crisis, which can lead to the use of mood-altering drugs and even resignation.
"Harassment in the work place needs to be criminalised in order to deter those who attempt to abuse women at work," said Faeza Basha, ex- director of the Libyan Centre for Human Rights.
Participants at the conference also criticised the media for not properly addressing the issue of sexual harassment and violence against women. Even in a country like Lebanon, which enjoys a high margin of media freedom, the handling and coverage of issues of violence against women was unacceptable, according to Magui Oun, a Lebanese media specialist and human- rights activist. "What the media cares about is scandals or scoops rather than treatment, follow- up or evaluation," she said.
However, Abul-Qomsan begged to differ as far as the Egyptian media was concerned. "The media was one of the vital tools that helped us fight this social cancer," she said. "A newspaper once published a feature about sexual harassment, and then I was surprised by a call from an Egyptian judge telling me that a group of judges had held a meeting to discuss how they could write a draft law to combat harassment," she added. "As a matter of fact, Egypt was the first Arab country to discuss this sensitive subject in the media," she added.
Abul-Qomsan also stressed that Egypt was the first country in the Arab world to launch media campaigns against sexual harassment. "It is thanks to the Egyptian media," she said, "which helped us a lot in raising awareness about how to fight harassment."
Asked about the outcomes of the first-of-its- kind conference, Abul-Qomsan said that it was "an attempt to establish legal guidelines to combat sexual harassment in the Arab region by carrying out studies of the punishments that should be imposed on harassers." Reports on the status of women in the Arab region would also be published, she said.
A STUDY by Abul-Qomsan and the Arab Consultant Office found that many Arab countries suffer from the problem of sexual harassment of women.
Twenty-seven per cent of Algerian female university students confirmed that they had experienced sexual harassment from their professors, while 44.6 per cent complained of verbal abuse, and 13.8 per cent said that they had been physically harassed.
In Qatar, 21.1 per cent of girls said they had been physically harassed, and 30 per cent of working women had been sexually harassed in the work place.
In Saudi Arabia, 22.7 per cent of female children had been subject to harassment. In Yemen, 90 per cent of women complained of harassment at work and in public places.
Another study conducted by the ECWR revealed that 83 per cent of women in Egypt said that they had been sexually harassed in one way or another at some point in their lives.
Abul-Qomsan's tips on how to defend yourself from sexual harassment in public places:
- Use tools in self-defence, including pins or something sharp like a pen, key or credit card.
- Spray the attacker with irritating but harmless substances, including pepper spray or perfumes.
- Push the harasser away using a bag or heavy book.
- Strike in vulnerable areas like the throat, eyes or ribs.
Why does she not mention the most vulnerable part of the male body here???
Forms of sexual harassment and how to deal with it:
Sexual harassment falls into three broad categories:
VERBAL: - Comments about appearance, body or clothes.
- Indecent remarks.
- Questions or comments about your sex life.
- Requests for sexual favours.
- Sexual demands made by someone of the opposite sex, or even your own sex.
- Promises or threats concerning employment conditions in return for sexual favours.
NON-VERBAL: - Looking or staring at a person's body.
- Display of sexually explicit material such as calendars, pin-ups or magazines.
PHYSICAL: - Physical touching, pinching, hugging, caressing, or kissing.
- Sexual assault.
- Rape.
Then following are ways of dealing with cases of suspected sexual harassment:
- Speak clearly and slowly, maintaining direct eye contact.
- Describe the behaviour, its effects on you, and saying that you want it to stop.
- Ignore any attempts to trivialise or dismiss what you have to say.
- Don't smile or apologise. This will undermine your complaint.
- When you have finished what you want to say, walk away. The less you say, the more powerful you will be.
the guys in the states cant sexual harrass or they will get sued. lol it took a long time to get to that point. im from NY i know all about it. just because sex is in your face all the time doesnt make it right. the ppl are desensitized they can see a naked woman no problem and not even feel aroused. how is that good? lol seriously. and by the way things do happen to women who dress half naked. in the usa a woman gets raped every 2 mins. the guys are teased all day.
i wear the hijab and get alot more respect just from looks... not.. i want to have sex with you... instead.. i want to marry you. if a woman is a muslim and wants a GOOD muslim man she must respect herself. the men are supposed to lower their gaze also and not dress flashy to attract either. its not just for women. the men who look and harrass are wrong in the eyes of the god.
Posted by layla13 (Member # 17343) on :
also its not just about the hijab.. if a woman is wearing a hijab yet her clothes/jeans are so tight theyre painted on..which is common in cairo, ofcourse men will harrass lol
a note about the 4 wives thing theyre NOT allowed to marry another woman without telling the other wife and it is only in special circumstances that this is truely VALID in the eyes of the god. a guy can not just go marry another woman kuz he wants more sex. any guy that says that he can is a liar and NOT a true believer in islam and allah hates liars and cheats. like all religions there are men that bend the rules to suit their own needs. allah does punish them they will never be happy in their life. lol comon 4 wives? most men cant handle 1 lol and they better be rich lol if a man cant treat all wives equal he is not allowed to have them. who can do that? NO ONE
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by layla13: the guys in the states cant sexual harrass or they will get sued. lol it took a long time to get to that point. im from NY i know all about it.
I lived in NY, and imo there is no way you can compare the harassment there to the one I have experienced in Cairo for years.
quote:Originally posted by layla13:
in the usa a woman gets raped every 2 mins. the guys are teased all day.
and by the way things do happen to women who dress half naked.
To connect clothes and rape is a very wrong and dangerous thing to say. Rape is about violence and control, NOT about being sexually teased and not being able to control oneself. Btw., old women, children, nuns get raped too.
Myth: Only "bad" women get raped. Fact: No other crime victim is looked upon with the degree of suspicion and doubt as a victim of rape. Although there are numerous reasons why society has cast blame on the victims of rape, a major reason found in studies is that of a feeling of self protection. If one believes that the victim was responsible because she put herself in an unsafe position, such as being out late at night, drinking alcohol, dressing in a certain way, or "leading on" the rapist, then we are able to feel safer because "we wouldn't do those things." But, the basic fact remains that without consent, no means no, no matter what the situation or circumstances.
Myth: Rape is just unwanted sex and isn't really a violent crime. Fact: Rape is a lot more than an unwanted sex act, it is a violent crime. Many rapists carry a weapon and threaten the victim with violence or death.
Myth: Rape only occurs outside and at night. Fact: Rape can and does occur anytime and anyplace. Many rapes occur during the day and in the victims' homes.
Myth: Sexual assault is an impulsive, spontaneous act. Fact: Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way.
Myth: Sexual assault usually occurs between strangers. Fact: By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.
Myth: Rape only happens to young attractive women. Fact: Rape can and does strike anyone at anytime. Age, social class, ethnic group and has no bearing on the person a rapist chooses to attack. Research data clearly proves that a way a woman dresses and / or acts does not influence the rapists choice of victims. His decision to rape is based on how easily he perceives his target can be intimidated. Rapists are looking for available and vulnerable targets. Statistics were obtained from various sources including the study Rape in America, 1992, National Victim Center, The Federal Bureau of Investigations and the National Crime Survey.
Myth: Rape is a crime of passion. Fact: Rape is an act of VIOLENCE, not passion. it is an attempt to hurt and humiliate, using sex as the weapon.
Myth: Most rapes occur as a "spur of the moment" act in a dark alley by a stranger. Fact: Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.
Myth: Most rapists only rape one time. FACT Most rapists rape again, and again, and again - until caught.
Myth: Only certain kinds of people get raped. It cannot happen to me. FACT: Rapists act without considering their victim's physical appearance, dress, age, race, gender, or social status. Assailants seek out victims who they perceive to be vulnerable. The Orange County Rape Crisis Center has worked with victims from infancy to ninety-two years of age and from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.
Myth: Only women and gay men get raped. FACT The vast majority of male rape victims, as well as their rapists, are heterosexual. Male rape victims now represent 8% of the primary victims served by the Orange County Rape Crisis Center. Rapists are motivated by the desire to have power and control over another person, not by sexual attraction. Male rape is not homosexual rape. Many male victims do not report the assault because they fear further humiliation.
Myth: Rape is an impulsive, uncontrollable act of sexual gratification. Most rape are spontaneous acts of passion where the assailant cannot control him/herself. FACT Rape is a premeditated act of violence, not a spontaneous act of passion. 71% of rapes are planned in advance. 60% of convicted rapists were married or had regular sexual partners at the time of the assault. Men can control their sexual impulses. The vast majority of rapists are motivated by power, anger, and control, not sexual gratification.
Myth: No woman or man can be raped against her or his will. Any person could prevent rape if he or she really wanted to. FACT In 1991, 14% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center involved the use of a weapon. 74% involved physical force and/or threats of force. Women are often physically weaker than men and are not taught to defend themselves or to be physically aggressive. Furthermore, some women are not willing to hurt another person, especially if the offender is someone they know.
Myth: Most rapes occur when people are out alone at night. If people stay at home, then they will be safer. FACT 44% of rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991 occurred in the victim's home.
Myth: Rapists are strangers. If people avoid strangers, then they will not be raped. FACT In 60% of the rapes reported to the Orange County Rape Crisis Center in 1991, the rapist was known to the victim. 7% of the assailants were family members of the victim. These statistics reflect only reported rapes. Assaults by assailants the victim knows are often not reported so the statistics do not reflect the actual numbers of acquaintance rapes.
Myth: If the assailant, victim, or both are drunk, the assailant cannot be charged with rape. FACT Forcing sex on someone who is too drunk to give consent is second degree rape in North Carolina. [It carries a prison sentence of up to 17 years.] Rape is a crime. People who commit crimes while under the influence of alcohol or drugs are not considered free from guilt.
Myth: Rapists are abnormal perverts; only sick or insane men are rapists. FACT In a study of 1300 convicted offenders, few were diagnosed as mentally or emotionally ill. Most were well-adjusted but had a greater tendency to express their anger through violence and rage.
Myth: Rape is a minor crime affecting only a few women. FACT It is estimated that 1 in 8 women will be raped in her lifetime. Because of low reporting rates, it is not known how many adult men are assaulted. It is also estimated that 1 out of every 4 girls, and 1 out of every 8 boys are sexually assaulted in some way before they reach adulthood. Rape is the most frequently committed violent crime in this country.
Myth: Most rapes occur on the street, by strangers, or by a few crazy men. FACT Over 50% of reported rapes occur in the home. 80% of sexual assaults reported by college age women and adult women were perpetrated by close friends or family members. There is no common profile of a rapist. Rapes are committed by people from all economic levels, all races, all occupations. A rapist can be your doctor, your boss, your clergyman, your superintendent, your partner, your lover, your friend or your date.
Myth: Only young, pretty women are assaulted. FACT Survivors range in age from infancy to old age, and their appearance is seldom a consideration. Assailants often choose victims who seem most vulnerable to attack: old persons, children, physically or emotionally disabled persons, substance abusers and street persons. Men are also attacked.
i have had LOTS of this type of problem!
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I have had no phone problems since I asked an Egyptian female friend to answer and give the dude a mouthful
Also we did pass my phone around the bar so all the guys could chat to him and get to have a laugh at his financial expense.
That dude called the wrong lady Posted by Questionmarks (Member # 12336) on :
Egypt: Women’s stories from the street Bikya Masr Staff 28 December 2009 in Sexual Harassment, Women CAIRO: Bikya Masr has compiled some horrifying experiences from women in Egypt and what they face on a daily basis on the streets. We ask that if you have your own stories, please send them to us in order to publicize this growing problem in Egyptian society.
I was walking home in Haram and a car pulled up next to me and started shouting horrible things at me. They tried to get me to come into the car, but I walked fast. Then, they drove the car to stop me from going forward, I fell and tripped on the sidewalk, cut up my leg. I ran away as fast as I could. I couldn’t tell my parents what happened because they would say it was my fault and I wouldn’t be allowed to go out. -Unnamed Egyptian college student
I know my parents would not be happy to hear that a respectable-looking middle aged man in a nice car pulled up beside me on the street yesterday and repeatedly asked me if I’d liked to F***. I was wearing a full-length skirt, long sleeves, and a wedding ring, and this was in Maadi. In my 25 years in America and in all the many countries I’ve visited (including Middle Eastern ones) I have never been addressed so disrespectfully by a stranger. Three weeks in Cairo, and an Egyptian man wins the rudest-ever award. -Emily, foreign woman
I live in New York and I feel safer walking alone at 3:00am, inebriated, than I do walking around here during the day, sober, and dressed in conservative clothing and with a head scarf. The problem here is there is no predictability. I don’t know if that guy making rude comments or leering at me is going to be more aggressive or not, and that’s not just limited to Egypt. It’s just that in Egypt, the number of men who do this increase exponentially and therefore the predictability decreases. -Soma
I was walking to the metro and when I got there, someone grabbed my body, it was horrible. It happens all the time. I get grabbed on the street almost everyday and when I try to do something about it, they run and people tell me it’s my fault. When I get touched on my body it is disgusting and it makes me sick of my country. -Asma
I dress conservatively in Cairo and I have been groped and grabbed and leered at and it is quite ridiculous. I am 59 years old and in spite of being told I am beautiful and that they want to marry me I can never forget that in my own country I’m invisible to men. I think the policies of Egypt don’t work for the young men of Egypt and as a result they don’t work for the women. Too many foriegn women in Egypt have told me they are tired of leaving their homes. There is a problem. I was constantly trying to be polite in the foreign country, don’t be polite, scream as loud as you can and slap them. If you take this quietly they don’t understand that you are offended. Leave no doubt in their minds. -Nicky
I have a French neighbour and friend upstairs. She was sooooooo sick of being harassed that she decided to cover her hair (of course the rest of her clothing was covering her body too)… So imagine at what point this girl couldnt bear it anymore. AND 3 DAYS AFTER STARTING USING IT … some guy grabs her boob on the street and she thinks it could have been worst if it werent for the fact she started screaming and some guys came to her help! -Regina
Just recently someone said “I wanna f***” as I was passing by with a girlfriend and just expected me to stay quiet. I was in a safe neighborhood, actually and tried to hit him with a cane I happened to be carrying, and when he took off running I yelled after him until he was out of site. I made sure EVERYONE knew that coward did something wrong as he was running. I yelled things to make him feel ashamed and remind him that he isn’t a good person. -Dalia
I was once picking up a friend at the airport coming from Australia. While waiting, I saw a young lady, scared to death, literally coerced and pushed by a cab driver into his taxi. This happened and she was surrounded by airport police officers, not one but many. Same thing happened to me at the bus station this time, coming back from Dahab at 7:00 am. I was sworn at, insulted and almost hit because I refused to “get in” the taxi. Another time I was at a local hotel, and learned of a disgusting assault, that you would not believe. A security guard sexually assaulted a lady guest within the hotel! A friend of mine, so frustrated by her inability to strike back, learned how to say “what are you looking at, you pig?” in Arabic in order to talk offenders back. Stories abound and they are all sad and disgusting. -Hannah
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Some women are such drama queens, guys driving by shouting random words isn't harassment. Well IMO it isn't. If it is I get harassed more in the UK than here!
Seriously, there ought to be an harassment-o-meter.
I shout random abuse back sometimes does that mean I harass them???
I get the leers and the stares but I am not bothered by this, I stand out like every other western women here and I understand folk are just curious.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Some women are such drama queens, guys driving by shouting random words isn't harassment. Well IMO it isn't. If it is I get harassed more in the UK than here!
Seriously, there ought to be an harassment-o-meter.
I shout random abuse back sometimes does that mean I harass them???
I get the leers and the stares but I am not bothered by this, I stand out like every other western women here and I understand folk are just curious.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Some women are such drama queens, guys driving by shouting random words isn't harassment.
To me it is. If that makes me a drama queen, then so be it.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Sometimes they shout 'hello' and 'welcome' or call us 'beautiful' ...is this harassment as well?
If I was being personally insulted for who I am and not just asked for sex because I am pale skinned with green eyes I would be offended.
I am not singled out, harassed, pestered as Nicola. I am shouted at from cars who see me as English.
No big deal. If people were being groped, touched, raped, man handled etc then yes, I would see the big deal.
My friends and I get stared at... sure we do, we are not the norm but we don't let it grind us down. In fact we laugh about it ...
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: No big deal. If people were being groped, touched, raped, man handled etc then yes, I would see the big deal.
What you are saying here is that there is no such thing as verbal harassment. That only physical assault counts as harassment and those who feel otherwise should just grow a thicker skin and stop being so over sensitive.
Sorry, but I disagree. Verbal harassment IS harassment in my book, and there are countless women who feel the same way. If a stranger on the street tells me he wants to f*ck me, or makes reference to my body in a sexual way, he is crossing a line and violating my personal space in a very obnoxious and disrespectful manner. If that's not harassment, I don't know what it is.
OT ... I didn't realize we have a word filter here. I wrote out f**k and it came out in asterisks. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Maybe I have lived here too long and am already thick skinned then. After 17 years of hearing the same old lines I find them of no threat and I never feel violated by some shouting at me through a car window.
But I am a tough cookie and very few things pee me off..
Do cars papping you in the UK insult you or wolf whistles?
It is disrespectful but I won't lose any sleep over it. Far worse things happen at sea!
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Do cars papping you in the UK insult you or wolf whistles?
I've only been there once, and that's ages ago.
As for Germany, it doesn't happen to me there. If it did, I would feel insulted just the same.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Verbal has happened to me now on 4 different continents... I guess I am familiar with the male mating sounds now. I don't care for words, they are mostly for the shock factor... I am not at all shocked!
Men can be pigs in general and harassment is not only happening in Egypt.... Harassment is worse in the UK if you think verbal harassment counts.
Wow, they grab yer ass in the UK all the time in clubs! I mentioned this before... it is mostly the Polish doing the grabbing.
Looks like my living abroad and travelling for 20 years has made me immune to words. Every cloud.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Verbal has happened to me now on 4 different continents... I guess I am familiar with the male mating sounds now. I don't care for words, they are mostly for the shock factor... I am not at all shocked!
Men can be pigs in general and harassment is not only happening in Egypt.... Harassment is worse in the UK if you think verbal harassment counts.
Wow, they grab yer ass in the UK all the time in clubs! I mentioned this before... it is mostly the Polish doing the grabbing.
Looks like my living abroad and travelling for 20 years has made me immune to words. Every cloud.
Verbal is common daily fare in Latin and Caribbean countries,but never the touching or groping kind.The later one is not common at all,and the offender could be jailed.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Men can be pigs in general and harassment is not only happening in Egypt.... Harassment is worse in the UK if you think verbal harassment counts.
I noticed there is a huge difference between the UK and Germany in that regard. What I heard from women living there (and also what I read on here) seems quite shocking to me. And I know that German women moving to the UK are usually appalled at the harassment which, to them, is unusual.
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Looks like my living abroad and travelling for 20 years has made me immune to words.
Looks like my living abroad and travelling for 20 years has done nothing to change the fact that I am an over sensitive sissy who feels offended by mere words.
Posted by Nine (Member # 17234) on :
So ladies, what exactly is friendly banter/sweet talk and what crosses the line. Lets leave aside touching groping as that is obviously unacceptable.
How much talk is ok (bearing in mind many women actually want to be told they look nice)?
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by ukthoughtful: lol nothing new has been going on then? :-)
So ladies, what exactly is friendly banter/sweet talk and what crosses the line. Lets leave aside touching groping as that is obviously unacceptable.
How much talk is ok (bearing in mind many women actually want to be told they look nice)?
Being told I am 'beautiful' and 'welcome on Egypt' doesn't bother me, I think I am only bothered if someone (male or female) is just being persistent. When folk cannot read the signals or body language and they just keep pushing. My Makwa boy is probably the most annoying tosser for this...
I was stalked by a man in a car yesterday for the duration of my walk through Korba, he was driving next to me or driving ahead and parking up so he could say whatever he was mumbling. Words do not bother me but the length he went to to get my attention and say whatever it was he was saying was more concerning. He soon got bored when he realised I was not a Western whore about to hop on his back seat and give him one there and then Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by ukthoughtful: So ladies, what exactly is friendly banter/sweet talk and what crosses the line.
Is that a serious question?
Imo the difference is very obvious.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
"hello, lovely morning" is friendly banter
"I want fook you" or "you want fook my Egyptian banana" is crossing the line.
Posted by ukthoughtful (Member # 17000) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by ukthoughtful: So ladies, what exactly is friendly banter/sweet talk and what crosses the line.
Is that a serious question?
Imo the difference is very obvious.
Well don't get me wrong Dalia, I am totally against what is happening in Egypt and I feel hurt for the Egyptian girls and what they go through.
But maybe some guys don't get what is acceptable and what isn't.
Posted by Mrs Hassan (Member # 15069) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret:
quote:Originally posted by ukthoughtful: lol nothing new has been going on then? :-)
So ladies, what exactly is friendly banter/sweet talk and what crosses the line. Lets leave aside touching groping as that is obviously unacceptable.
How much talk is ok (bearing in mind many women actually want to be told they look nice)?
Being told I am 'beautiful' and 'welcome on Egypt' doesn't bother me, I think I am only bothered if someone (male or female) is just being persistent. When folk cannot read the signals or body language and they just keep pushing. My Makwa boy is probably the most annoying tosser for this...
I was stalked by a man in a car yesterday for the duration of my walk through Korba, he was driving next to me or driving ahead and parking up so he could say whatever he was mumbling. Words do not bother me but the length he went to to get my attention and say whatever it was he was saying was more concerning. He soon got bored when he realised I was not a Western whore about to hop on his back seat and give him one there and then
I have had that happen to me in Korba, followed by a man in car, wavin money at me, and he was persistant.. I had my son with me and we could not beleive that he did continue to harrass... He got a shock when i went over and took the money out of his hand and walked off, Shokran! What could he do, make a scene, say i stole it....lol.. serves the bastard right, anyway was only 200 EGP, jesus I'm worth lot more that that...cheap skate!
Posted by Questionmarks (Member # 12336) on :
Yesterday I heard the story about a woman, who left her country (Somalia) more then 20 years ago, and recently returned, finding a complete new country and attitudes. The clothes women were wearing have been changed from the light and bright garments into dark and stiff clothes who hided the complete person. The most important change however, was the common attitude. She wore western clothes, (with a veil) nevertheless just because she was visable western, people talked about her as if she was a whore. The aversion on their faces was shocking.
She visited a hospital, where a 13 year old girl just gave birth to a baby, which was produced by her 45 yr old uncle, out of a rape. The women from her family concluded that it would be better to declare the young girl mentally insane, so she couldn't be held accountable for the baby.... yet the Western woman was the whore...
So, women walk the streets in Egypt, and I think almost everybody at least once has expierenced unwished attention from males. That following by cars, is common, even I have expierenced it, and I am not a attractive young girl. It's just the fact that I am Western...and therefore cheap, or a whore.
The saddest thing is that they all get away with it. The streets are covered with people, with police, with men and women, and nobody takes action. They don't want to involve, or perhaps they are afraid to involve, and therefore these men are able to continue their backwards behaviour...
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs Hassan:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret:
quote:Originally posted by ukthoughtful: lol nothing new has been going on then? :-)
So ladies, what exactly is friendly banter/sweet talk and what crosses the line. Lets leave aside touching groping as that is obviously unacceptable.
How much talk is ok (bearing in mind many women actually want to be told they look nice)?
Being told I am 'beautiful' and 'welcome on Egypt' doesn't bother me, I think I am only bothered if someone (male or female) is just being persistent. When folk cannot read the signals or body language and they just keep pushing. My Makwa boy is probably the most annoying tosser for this...
I was stalked by a man in a car yesterday for the duration of my walk through Korba, he was driving next to me or driving ahead and parking up so he could say whatever he was mumbling. Words do not bother me but the length he went to to get my attention and say whatever it was he was saying was more concerning. He soon got bored when he realised I was not a Western whore about to hop on his back seat and give him one there and then
I have had that happen to me in Korba, followed by a man in car, wavin money at me, and he was persistant.. I had my son with me and we could not beleive that he did continue to harrass... He got a shock when i went over and took the money out of his hand and walked off, Shokran! What could he do, make a scene, say i stole it....lol.. serves the bastard right, anyway was only 200 EGP, jesus I'm worth lot more that that...cheap skate!
This is the funniest idea i´ve read for out-smarting the harassers out there.Mrs.Hassan, Only imagining the look he must have put in his face cracks me up!!!!
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Originally posted by Questionmarks:
Yesterday I heard the story about a woman, who left her country (Somalia) more then 20 years ago, and recently returned, finding a complete new country and attitudes. The clothes women were wearing have been changed from the light and bright garments into dark and stiff clothes who hided the complete person. The most important change however, was the common attitude. She wore western clothes, (with a veil) nevertheless just because she was visable western, people talked about her as if she was a whore. The aversion on their faces was shocking.
Sounds more like Egypt nowadays I needed to go to Shubra (Coptic zone) last week to fix a problem (Toshiba people) and had a shock when I found so much women and young ladies wearing skirts, tight jeans and no veils/niqab.. it was like going back in time to the days when we were free (till late seventies).
They were in majority, lots of Coptic names on shops and pharmacies, coptic schools and churches had huge mosques built close to them, horns were hollering azan to remind them who's the boss.. 5 times a day. Posted by Questionmarks (Member # 12336) on :
Should people feel like an attempt to show them superiority? And; should it be meant as superiority? I know that the call of prayers sometimes is taken as a provocation here, too. Perhaps it is, but you also can take it as it is: a call for people to go to pray, just like the churchbells... A question: In history the churchbells were also used to inform people in alarmsituations, a city-attack or big floods, that kind of stuff. Did they use mosques for this too?
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I think I am only bothered if someone (male or female) is just being persistent. When folk cannot read the signals or body language and they just keep pushing.
Which applies to roughly 99% of the people who harass women.
quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: That following by cars, is common, even I have expierenced it, and I am not a attractive young girl. It's just the fact that I am Western...and therefore cheap, or a whore.
I agree that as a Westerner you get more harassment because of this sort of preconception, but the following in cars happens to Egyptian women all the time as well.
I almost alway get mistaken for an Egyptian from behind (which makes for interesting reactions when I turn around, btw. ), and I get the following around by cars a lot.
LOL @ Mrs. Hassan -- I would have loved to see the guy's face. Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
I always used to get offered money as a tall, blonde, buxom 14 year old living in Hamm in Germany in the 70s. Walking round the Kuerpark, the Turkish and Greek gaestarbeiters were always waving money about
That's probably where I learnt the 'eye slide by' - don't walk with your head bowed - that gives out 'victim' signals, walk with your head up - you have every right to be on the path the same as them - if you do catch someone's eye inadvertently, just slide your eyes right past them. Don't lock eyes which could be seen either as a 'come on' or aggressively challenging.
A guy waved some at me once about 5 years ago on one of my first visits to Cairo and I made an extreme gesture involving elbows and snarly face and he was last seen running....
Oh and for anyone visiting Clapham in London, if a guy asks you the way to Wickses Lane - he's NOT expecting you to whip out your A-Z!!!
Also PS - While 'wilcom in Egypt' might be hassle I seriously do not class this as sexual harassment it's 'tourist hassle' a very different thing. The two things seem to be constantly muddled together on this forum which detracts from serious discussion on sexual harassment.
PPS - and as for the 'beautifuls'. Firstly I get far fewer of those compared to when I first came 5 years ago. Secondly, most of the ones I do get are from old women! If I take my hair out of its perennial ponytail and comb it out in the ladies' loo, I often get women gazing at me going something like 'helwa, gamela, habiby'. One time I was walking up a backstreet in Mohandseen and an old lady sweeping outside did the same thing - habiby helwa gamela' and a bunch of old ladies on a microbus once when I was trying to find out if it went to Maadi or not (still dont know how to say Maadi so Egyptians understand!)
PPS yes Mrs Hassan, you are surely worth more than 200LE (unless you go selling yourself in Taweed El Noor bargain basement )
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: Also PS - While 'wilcom in Egypt' might be hassle I seriously do not class this as sexual harassment it's 'tourist hassle' a very different thing.
Yup, I agree.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I am so stealing the money off the next guy who waves cash at me lol...
If in Birmingham someone asks you if you wanna go round the back off Rackhams - decline
I get pervy comments off the Americans and the British in Egypt... and the only time I have been groped here was by a Russian. Every country I have lived in I have comments as well so I am really not that bothered when a man or woman tell me I am beautiful... if they tell me they wanna fook me I tell em I don't blame them
Women stroke me lol.... that's weird but I am not pissed off over it.
Mrs H... I was flashed out outside the Metro in Korba last year... I was with my Mum lol... I humiliated the pervert
But again, I have been flashed at in England. I must be a total fox to some guys pmsl... or I must look like a whore hmmmm lol.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Dubai's shameful record on rape
The arrest of a British woman allegedly raped in Dubai mirrors harsh Middle Eastern attitudes to women and sexual assault
Dubai sees and markets itself as a tolerant cosmopolitan city where east meets west: where occidental comforts and luxury sit cosily and apparently easily with the Arab-Islamic culture. As many visitors to the UAE notice (and have mentioned to me), alcohol is readily available in hotels and restaurants. Unmarried couples often openly share hotel rooms, and visitors to the UAE say they are rarely, if ever, troubled by the authorities over either issue.
But, recent events in Dubai suggest that this meeting place may not be quite as comfortable or cosy as one may think. On New Year's Eve, a young British woman of Pakistani descent was allegedly raped by a hotel worker at an upmarket hotel in Dubai Marina. She had been celebrating her engagement with her 44-year-old British boyfriend during a three-day romantic getaway to the city. But, based on news reports, their pleasant weekend apparently turned into a nightmare. She reported to the police that a hotel employee followed her into a restroom and raped her.
A woman should be able to report a rape to the police anywhere in the world and to expect them to investigate the charge. In some parts of the world that will actually happen, even though police officials are not always as sensitive or responsive as they should be. But for those of us who live in the Middle East, it is really not that clear what we should do if we're sexually assaulted, abused, or raped. That is because in so many instances, officials either don't take us seriously, or – as this case frighteningly illustrates – we may even be charged with a crime ourselves.
It became clear in this case that the Dubai authorities were not really interested in whether the young woman had been harmed. The authorities at the Jebel Ali police station in Dubai seemed to be much more intrigued about this young woman's alcohol consumption and her sex life, news reports indicate. Instead of seriously investigating the rape, which carries a harsh sentence under local law, the police charged the woman and her fiancé with drinking alcohol and having illegal sex.
They spent a night in jail and were then released on bail. Their passports have been confiscated as they await trial, and if convicted, they may face up to six years in prison. Police officials contend that the woman "fabricated" her story though they have provided no information to back up their conclusion, and despite the fact that the criminal investigation is apparently not yet complete. The hotel employee, who admitted he had sex with the woman but denies it was rape, has been charged with illegal sex, rather than rape.
This woman's experience is unfortunately not limited to tourists in Dubai. It is an example of how authorities, especially in this region, ignore violence against women every day and turn investigations of crimes against women into "moral" judgment calls. The real problem is the much broader and more basic one of how societies in the Middle East view women and attempt to control them, placing restrictions on how they should dress, speak, and act in public. Women are seen as custodians of family "honour" and are coerced into marriage. Even the most open societies in the region continue to fail women by not fully respecting their human rights.
Women in the Middle East face discriminatory legal provisions in personal status laws, which govern almost every aspect of their lives, including marriage, divorce, custody and guardianship, and inheritance. Discriminatory provisions in penal codes either exempt or hand down mitigated sentences to male family members who murder their female relatives. Women are also reluctant to report domestic abuse, rape, or other forms of gender-based violence to authorities because of the difficulties they face in seeking redress.
A few weeks ago, a young woman was allegedly raped in a restroom. The fact that she was treated like a criminal when she went to the police and that women in the Middle East are scared to report such crimes is the real moral outrage.
Many women in Yemen don’t know about regulations against harassment
So much has been said about harassment against women in Yemen. Discussions by governmental institutions, civil society initiatives and all nationwide mass media have analyzed the matter either superficially or in depth. The most distinguished approaches are the ones that hit the deep core of the problem and brought certain solutions or mechanisms to fight the problem.
Harassment against women study conducted by Athar Foundation
A recent study showed 99% of women in Sana’a undergoes sexual harassment from males in the streets. The study covered the range of sexual offensive behaviors in the streets only which are found threatening or disturbing by most of the study respondents. The respondents said that they faced intended disturbing or upsetting persistent and unwanted sexual advances behaviors from men in streets where typically disadvantageous consequences are potential to the victims.
Athar Foundation for Development conducted a baseline study on street harassment against women in Sana’a during April and August of last year. The Middle East Program Initiative (MEPI) funded the study. 540 women from 5 districts in Sana’a governorate participated in the study. The respondent women consisted of schools and universities female students, public and private sectors employees and housewives who were at the end of the study introduced to knowing about existence of regulations on harassment felonies and existing toll free number for harassment cases complaints which is 199.
Last month, the foundation organized a discussion panel to present the study’s results and gather related recommendations to establish real mechanisms that will aim at combating the problem. A project on implementing measures to reduce the problem is the foundation current effort. The project is due to take place during February and March and again it will be funded by the Middle East Program Initiative (MEPI).
The session’s participants consisted of governmental bodies, educational delegates, civil society representatives, lawyers and media representatives. One of the main participants were L. Colonel Mr. Abdulaghani al-Wajih, the commander of patrol police in Sana’a and the secretary general of police club, Mr. Hussein al-Faqih, the director of operation administration at the Ministry of Interior. Other religious personas were invited but unfortunately they were absent.
At the session's beginning, the study’s results were put on show then the participants presented their analysis on the issue. At the end, each participant presented key proposal that will be under a coming project done by the Athar foundation in implementing actual measurements to fight the problem.
Besides that 99% of women in Sana’a undergoes sexual harassment from males in the streets, the study also had other detailed results. The survey sample was distributed in Maeen, al-Wahda, al-Thawra, Sho’ob and al-Tahreer districts. The targeted women’s age ranged from 20 till 50 years old. Most of the complaints came from the age 20-24, universities students making them have 51.9% complaints of the final sum and the least complaints came from women aged 50 and older. The harassment types’ nature varied from verbal sexual offensive remarks, physical touching to sensitive or insensitive parts of women’s bodies, stalking, to methods beyond all what were mentioned, leaving a tremendous psychological impact on the women let alone the social impact that in certain cases would lead many girls to drop their education, whether because of explicit reasons or direct reasons.
The study central objective was to provide actual and concrete statistics on sexual harassment against women in Sana’a’s streets from the female respondents’ perspective. In addition, the ultimate objective was to coordinate with local authorities to develop a complaints and reporting system in order to preserve privacy and dignity of victimized women and their families.
88.5% of the women assessed the issue to have a huge magnitude that is expanding with the passage of time. The women’s perspective on the motif behind the issue is the enormity of the free time young males have.
In most cases, a collective unspoken agreement exists among Yemeni girls regarding the reaction towards such harassment. The stigma is too shameful to be delivered. 84% of the women ignore harassers to avoid embarrassment. Moreover, only 48% of the women inform male relatives about the issue.
The Study Key outcome
Harassment against women in one way or in another is an international phenomenon. It occurs in any country and is not only happening in Yemen. But what distinguishes its occurrence in Yemen is how it is an unspoken matter demonstrated by the study’s respondents who had no idea about the availability of regulations: women can turn to the government to take their rights from harassers. In light of that, ignorance about existence of laws to deal with the issue is the most significant result of the study. 63.3% of the respondents don’t know about regulations and laws’ existence dealing with sexual harassment.
Anticipated Project
On the road to enlighten and empower women with their rights, the hoped-for effect is expected after the coming project on combating street harassment against women in Yemen done by Athat Foundation for Development and funded by (MEPI). The project’s initial intention is to raise awareness on women’s exercising their rights, using the regulation in favor of victimized women. The specific reason behind this project is to assist elimination of the issue occurrence.
According to a study, 98 percent of the foreign women and 83 percent of the Egyptian women have at some point been subject to sexual harassment in Egypt. Often the blame is placed squarely on the shoulders of the victims. Mohammed Ali Atassi reports
Sexual harassment of women in Egypt is one of many social problems that politicians and the media have tended to treat as an instance of individual, abnormal behaviour. Because they treat it as an isolated aberration from proper social norms – falling outside the path, principles and traditions of a sanctioned way of life – Egyptian society as a whole does not need to confront it.
It took the courage of a few Egyptian women who exposed their own suffering to reveal the treatment many women routinely experience on the streets of Cairo. Simultaneously, a few civil society organizations, aided by alternative media outlets (blogs foremost among them), launched awareness campaigns aimed at transforming both the understanding and method of dealing with the issue, so that Egyptians would cease to view future incidents as isolated acts of perversion, and instead see them as components of a pressing social problem.
Educational and judicial measures
As such, perceptions of sexual harassment have changed to now frame it as an important issue – one that demands political, educational and judicial measures, though many of these have yet to be implemented.
The problem of sexual harassment in Egypt comes to sharp focus in the case of the young film director Nouha Rushdi Saleh, who won a legal case against a truck driver who harassed her in a Cairo street. The court handed down a three-year jail sentence to the perpetrator – and the case blew the cover off the issue in Egypt, where official silence has reigned for years.
Most tourist guidebooks on Egypt, particularly those published abroad, warn foreign women regarding sexual harassment in the street and offer advice on how they should act and react. This could easily suggest that this phenomenon is on the rise. The aggression is hardly confined to foreign women; its victims include Egyptian women from all social and religious classes, veiled and unveiled.
Still, most public authorities and influential social forces ignored the issue until the outbreak of the 2006 riots. During the downtown celebrations of the holiday of Eid al-Fitr, a crowd of hundreds of sexually frenzied young men participated in violent attacks on dozens of women, surrounding them in the streets, groping and even trying to undress them. As police stood by and watched the scene ambivalently, no one, not mothers nor veiled women, were safe from the mob.
Implicit assumptions
Supported by the state media, mainly newspapers, some political figures tried to minimize the impact of the incident by accusing the opposition of exploiting the social and political dimensions of the riot for their own benefit. But if the state authority was ready for a cover-up, the Egyptian blogosphere was ready for a fight. Bloggers published testimonies and played video clips of the scenes in Talat Harb square and the surrounding streets where women were assaulted.
And while Egyptian authorities took action and installed security cameras in the center of the city – the site of the 2006 riot – to alleviate the phenomenon, the effort did nothing to prevent similar attacks from being perpetrated in other parts of the city. Incidents spread and in fact intensified in other areas, including Al Haram Street and Al Mohandesseen district, where many girls were assaulted on Eid al-Fitr. This time, however, police successfully arrested many of the attackers.
Unfortunately, many dominant beliefs still place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the victims of sexual harassment. Society makes an implicit assumption that women dress provocatively, or otherwise behave suspiciously to excite men into violently attacking them – or blame women simply because they are unveiled or don't conform to conservative Islamic dress codes.
Awareness campaigns
If there was one positive result of the 2006 attacks – which claimed many veiled victims – it opened the door for public debate about the phenomenon of sexual harassment in Egypt. Civil society organizations and women's groups touched on the fresh social wound, launching a legion of awareness campaigns while the issue was still on citizens' minds.
These campaigns sought to educate women about their own rights and warn both men and women about the severity of these practices and the pressing need to face the problem as a society. Presenting it as a social issue that affects everyone, the campaigns linked the phenomenon of sexual harassment to youth unemployment and marginalization, as well as to the fact that a growing number of young people are marrying at an older age. They also cited the upsurge in sexual repression amidst an increasingly male chauvinist culture, in addition to the breakdown of the family and moral codes, as factors.
The magazine Kalimatina ("Our Word") published the campaign "Respect Yourself," and the Egyptian Center for Women's Rights presented "Safe Streets for Everyone". In cooperation with various media outlets, both print and visual, websites and blogs, these campaigns worked to enlighten Egyptian youth on the danger of such practices and demand the development of laws that deter them. Campaigns also prepared police stations and trained officers for handling sexual harassment incidents.
In the wake of this multi-faceted campaign, a sociological study named "Clouds in the Sky of Egypt: Sexual Harassment – From Verbal Advances to Rape" examined the situation. The study took a sample of 2,500 Egyptian women and 2,020 other individuals (equally divided between men and women), as well as a survey of 109 foreign women. The results were shocking: 98 percent of the foreign women and 83 percent of the Egyptian women had been subject to sexual harassment – and nearly two-thirds of the men confessed to committing sexual harassment against women.
Counter-campaigns
On the other hand, conservative political and religious groups attempted to exploit the worsened incidents of sexual harassment to serve their own special interests. In a manner clearly demeaning to women, these factions attacked women's dignity by pegging the blame for the assaults on the victims. The counter-campaigns even went so far as to collude with those who committed the crimes in an obvious attempt to justify their deeds. Rather than defending the victims or protecting women's rights, these campaigns took the opposite approach.
Two striking examples of this came in the form of posters that the groups hung in some streets and published on many Islamic blogs and websites. The first contains two juxtaposed images. The picture on the right has a green hue and features a woman wearing a veil plastered with mosque-minaret pictures. At the bottom of the picture is a piece of candy carefully wrapped in green, and under it the statement that God will forgive the sins of veiled women. The image on the left, tinted in bright red, depicts an unveiled woman and a man. The bottom shows a red candy in torn paper, with a religious injunction beneath that warns women of moral failure.
The second poster continues the theme of objectifying women, likening her to a piece of candy ready to be eaten, by portraying her as a lollipop that cannot be protected from flies (which means men in the language of these campaigns), save with the wrapper, which translates to the veil. Under the images of two lollipops, one wrapped and the second naked with flies hovering over it, a religious statement professes that an unveiled woman will not be able to protect herself – for God, the creator, knows what is in her best interest, and thus ordered the veil.
These messages reveal a disturbing mentality and ideology that view women as objects of pleasure and entertainment, who must cater to men's physical needs and fantasies for religion's sake. While enjoining women to cover themselves in public to prevent being sexually harassed by strangers, this belief system seems to limit women's choice when it comes to their own sexuality. These messages imply that the spread of sexual harassment is linked to the absence of the veil, and thus the unveiled woman holds the responsibility for the sexual harassment she encounters.
Interference of justice
The public discussion over sexual harassment could have been confined to the media, the campaigns and the counter campaigns were it not for the courage of the young Egyptian director, Noha Rushdi Saleh. A driver sexually assaulted her while she returned from the airport, even though she was accompanied by a friend.
The assault took place in one of the streets close to her home in the Al Karba district when the driver began swerving his car towards her, extending his hand from the window and violently pulling her towards him. He touched her breasts until she fell on the ground, then he quickly drove away, looking back mockingly at her through his window.
According to Saleh, this glance back was an important factor in her decision to turn to the court and demand her rights. Yelling and feeling great anger that cannot be expressed in words, she followed the driver and was able, thanks to the heavy traffic, to grab the front of his car, all the while shouting and calling for help. Saleh gave an account of her shock at other pedestrians' reaction:
"I couldn't believe that some were willing to help and assist the driver to run away in the car, while others told me, 'We will let him apologize to you.' I asked them why I would want an apology. Had he stepped over my feet? With my refusal, they asked, 'What do you need?' I told them I would report him to the police station. Another bystander said, 'I don't understand why you stand here in the midst of men.' There were people on their balconies looking down and watching me as if I were in a film. One woman was saying to me, 'Enough my daughter, forgive him,' but I refused and maintained my position."
Noha's legal background empowered her to insist on her rights, and she succeeded in making a police report and taking the defendant to the criminal court. With the support of her father, she was determined to have the court session be public as a means of shaking the Egyptian populace and judicial system into confronting sexual harassment. Northern Cairo's criminal court, presided over by Judge Shawqi al-Shalqani, issued a judgment on October 21, 2008, which sentenced the defendant Sharif Jouma Jebril to three years in jail and a payment of 5,001 Egyptian pounds as a penalty.
A nail in the coffin of sexual harassment
Noha faced the news cameras and said that the judgment had restored her self-esteem. The judicial system had done her justice, paving the way for all Egypt's daughters to pursue the legal road to claim their rights and render the first nail into the coffin of sexual harassment.
However, the judgment did not prevent Noha Rushdi Saleh from being the subject of a vicious campaign that impugned her credibility. Her critics accused her of distorting Egypt's reputation and of carrying Israeli citizenship, as her grandfather was among the Palestinian refugees who came to Egypt.
But her courage has left a significant mark on Egyptian society, because she insisted on seeing her judicial proceeding to the end, as well as ultimately extracting a judgment in her favour from the Egyptian court. She will be remembered for helping to spearhead the long and difficult battle towards creating a civil society that holds the dignity and rights of women as inseparable from its overall goals and aspirations.
Interview: Police turned me away after sexual assault
May 10th, 2010 | By Eman Hashim
CAIRO: Reem is a 21-year-old Egyptian woman who recently graduated from university and is looking forward to the future. A degree in hand, she is readying herself for success. But like the vast majority of women in Egypt, she was the victim of a sexual assault that took place in Egypt’s many public spaces: on the bus.
She told Bikya Masr the story of the incident, and more shockingly, what the police did – rather did not do – in response.
The taxi driver asked me for sex this morning... I told him I spoke no Arabic. As I handed the cash over to him for the journey he stroked my hand... so I swore at him in fluent low class Arabic and slammed the door He did look mortified.
Stroked and approached... not bad for a mornings work.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Interview: Police turned me away after sexual assault
CAIRO: Reem is a 21-year-old Egyptian woman who recently graduated from university and is looking forward to the future. A degree in hand, she is readying herself for success. But like the vast majority of women in Egypt, she was the victim of a sexual assault that took place in Egypt’s many public spaces: on the bus.
She told Bikya Masr the story of the incident, and more shockingly, what the police did – rather did not do – in response.
BM: What happened, Reem?
Reem: It was Saturday. I took the bus and I was asleep when I felt something moving on my shoulder. When I woke up, I found out that it was the hand of the guy sitting on the chair behind me! I thought I was mistaken but I stayed awake. Then he did it again!
BM: How did that make you feel?
Reem: I was so mad! I remembered all the other times when something like this happened to me and I felt responsible. I told myself I should not shut up and I had to be more positive about it.
BM: What did you do?
Reem: I went to the driver and asked him if there was a police station on our way. He asked me why and I told him what had happened.
BM: What did he do?
Reem: He stopped the bus. And went to that guy and started yelling at him. At first he denied it, and then he said he had done it by mistake!
Then the driver told the traffic officer what had happened, and he gave that “look.”
BM: What do you mean by that “look”?
Reem: “Oh yeah, she’s one of those!” like I’m a kind of freak who is just acting crazy.
Then we, in the bus, stayed waiting for the police to come. It took them a few minutes to come and through these few minutes, people in the bus started saying the worst things.
BM: Like what?
Reem: There was one man who kept telling him not to apologize because then he would prove he had done something wrong!
Another kept giving different comments. Some of them were making fun of me, others were mad cause they were in a hurry, and some actually tried to get the idea of going to the police out of my mind!
BM: Then what happened at the police station?
Reem: The police officer asked me to tell him the story and I did.
His facial expressions, the look on his eyes, his body language were all sending all these negative signals. He made me feel like I was in a schoolyard after a kids fight! Then he told me it was a “minor” thing that didn’t require all that [attention]!
BM: You mean he didn’t show care?
Reem: Not only that, he made me feel scared! For the first time in that whole day I felt scared when I was at the police station. All during the events, both knowing that I was defending my rights and that I was heading to the police made me feel strong and stable. But after talking with the police officer, I started shaking inside, I kind of lost my confidence and felt I had nowhere to go!
BM: What do you think he meant by ‘minor’ incident?
Reem: What I understood from him is that touching is no big deal. So I asked him if I was supposed to wait till he raped me then come to the police, but by then I was being dealt with as a crazy child.
BM: Then what happened?
Reem: In the police station I was told that I would go nowhere with this; that if I insisted on filing a complaint I would be heading myself into a long police hassle that me – as a girl – couldn’t go through, and that during the procedures the guy who attacked me could easily counter-accuse me and I could end up being blamed for what happened!
They told me they would keep him for the night in prison to teach him a lesson and that that should be enough!
BM: So you didn’t file a complaint?
Reem: No
BM: And now, how do you look at the whole thing?
I just want to ask one question: where do I go if this is how I am treated at the police station? I of course blame the guy who attacked me and the people in the bus who not only did nothing, but tried to put the blame on me for refusing to accept this, but on top of all this, I am angry and hurt from how I was treated at the police station. Isn’t this the place where I am supposed to feel safe?
And next time if someone attacks me, I don’t want anyone to question me if I take his life with a knife! Yes! I will not accept being assaulted anymore, and if the police are not willing to protect me, then I’ll do anything to protect myself!
Ironically, before I went outside today, I was determined to write another 'Things I've Learned..." post about the dangers of all/none statements that can lead to prejudice. I wanted to reflect on 2 young, Egyptian men I'd met at AUC and their struggles with love in a Muslim country. One had spent his life in boarding schools and is now agnostic and the other is a Christian who had grown up in Bahrain. Both were well traveled, sweet, sensitive, and complete gentlemen with heartbreaking love stories. I wanted to highlight their stories as a breath of fresh air to contrast the negative way I've discussed my interactions with Egyptian men. I have been struggling with my own growing aversion to Egyptian men and trying not to assume they were all walking monuments to depravity. Therefore, the post was going to be a reminder to myself that one can never generalize all or none of any group. Then I went outside and met the average Egyptian men and now that other post AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN...
I threw on my usual Cairo uniform of wrinkled t-shirt and jeans to go grocery shopping today. As I walked back from the fruit stand 2 blocks from my apartment, I noticed two teenage boys following me. One kept walking behind me and trying to whisper perversion into my ear. When that failed, he walked a couple paces ahead of me and kept looking back while the other walked behind me. In no mood to be bothered, I tried my usual techniques for avoiding street harassers 1) I slowed down and 2) walked over to a cop. The guys walked off quickly so I took the oppurtunity to cross the street and continue home. Out of nowhere, the 2 crossed over to me and began making lewd gestures. Nearing my apartment, 3) I walked into a store and pretended to admire scarves s that they wouldn't know where I live. Usually, most men would get bored and walk off by then but these 2 lingered outside.
I was running out of patience with them so I walked outside again , quickening my step. When one approached me and tried to reach for me, 4) I yelled loudly in English and flayed my arms for him to go away. He was momentarily surprised and confused so I hurried to my apartment building. To my dismay, he tried to follow me into the building! At this point, I flipped out, cursed him out, and shoved him back out the door. He had the nerve to raise his hand as if to slap me! Prepared to murder him in broad daylight if he dared, I stared him down until he lowered his arm and walked back outside.
Quite frankly, I find it hard not to completely despise Egyptian men right now. The constant sexual harassment, disrespect, and lack of regard for a woman's most basic right to walk from Point A to Point B in peace is disgusting. Unlike in other countries where a man will occasionally pull up in his car and flirt, someone will gawk at you or try to touch your hair, or a woman will have to endure a few amusing marriage proposals, harrasment in Egypt is ceaseless, viscous, and psychologically draining. In a report by Reuters, 2/3 of Egyptian men admited to sexually harassing men. The forms of harassment reported by Egyptian men include touching or ogling women, shouting sexually explicit remarks, and exposing their genitals to women. Contrary to popular belief, this BBC interview highlights that it has nothing to do with what a woman is wearing. Even women in full burqas and niqabs are sexually harassed. In my observation, harassment seems to be a means of inflicting discomfort in order to assert some form of power over a woman. The many shiftless,unemployed and sexually repressed young men are bothered by seeing most women moving about in public with a purpose to their step and money in their pockets. Harrasment is a way to ensure that a woman "knows her proper place" in society.
Reuter also said that 83 percent of Egyptian women reported having been sexually harassed. Nearly half of women said the abuse occurred daily. 98 percent of foreign women saying they had experienced harassment in the country...The survey said most of the Egyptian women who told of being harassed said they were dressed conservatively, with the majority wearing the Islamic headscarf. The Egyptian government has half-heartedly tried to adress this widespread issue but nothing concrete has come out of their efforts.The harassment is to the degree that, the one time I went outside and no one was in the street to sexually harass me, I was genuinely taken aback! My roommates and I almost ran outside and played and skipped in the street with joy! None of us could figure out what was going on. It was right after Passover and Easter...Had God struck down all the first born sons again?! The next day, my instructor informed me that the day before was Sham El-Nisem and most Egyptians were at the park with their families.
While sexual harrasment seems harmless on the outside, it leads to a break down of the moral fabric of society. It's a bit hypocritical to impose a way of dress on women based on Islamic views of modesty when men whip out their penises to the first blonde that walks by. The objectification of women in public is also perpetuated by the next generation of young boys. I've seen boys as young as 10 make perverted grinding motions to women walking by (gee, I wonder where they learned that?!) and call them things that no little boy should ever repeat. Furthermore, what begins as lewd gestures can quickly turn into violence against women. Most importantly, it serves to further silence women in the Middle East and push them back into the shadows. Although, there are arbitrary penalties for harrasment, only 2.6 percent of women report it to the police. In actuality, sometimes it's the police doing the harassing, making it difficult to find someone to speak to. Once, a woman does report harassment, she must then endure a long legal process in the slight hopes that something is actually done.
I've found myself completely avoiding lower-class Egyptian men. There is an internal debate going on inside me where one side continues to warn me against the dangers of blanket generalization and stereotyping groups and the other side bluntly points out that I get sexually harassed, have lewd and/or racist comments and gestures made towards me, or someone tries to touch me inappropriately everyday and if I'm not on guard, I may get seriously hurt one day. Thus, my survival instincts are winning out at this point and I view all Egyptian men in the street with suspicion and disgust. I'm determined to be a part of that 2.6% that reports each and every pervert from now on even if nothing comes out of it. Sexual harrasment in Egypt goes beyond just an annoyance, it's a violation of your most basic rights, personal space and safety.
Sadly, I can fully relate to everything she writes.
Posted by Dexter (Member # 16952) on :
Hmmmm, the 'average Egyptian man', you just can't help but hate them.
The taxi driver asked me for sex yesterday all the way from Maadi to Zamalek.
NONSTOP all the way and before each disgusting sentence he would say 'sorry, but he just loved sex gedan gedan gedan.'
At first I totally ignored him, then I let him have it in Arabic and that still didn't stop him. Asked him if he would like to continue the same conversation with his mother, but he told me she was dead.
If it wasn't for the jammed traffic and stifling heat, I think I would have hurt him and then jumped out and hailed another taxi. Apart from the violation/disrespect factors, what makes a destitute, nylon sweater/sheb sheb wearing, brown teeth felaheen think he can speak to a woman like that, let alone expect her to drop her knickers and let him have it ???????????
The only thing that shut him up was for me to stay on my mobile for the rest of the trip, making nonstop calls and chatting with friends until I reached home. Then I had him drop me off a few streets away from my apartment as I didn't want him to know which building I lived in. Then for the next half an hour, I played cat and mouse with him in the back streets as he kept following me. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh.
I won't even go into details of one late night taxi ride to Maadi, suspicious but unbelieving that the driving was doing what I think he was doing as he was driving with one hand and jiggling around. Suspicion was confirmed when he slammed on the brakes in the middle of the Corniche screaming 'MILK MILK MILK'. Ughhhhhhhhhh just gross.
I have an Egyptian female friend who drives everywhere. Recently she has opted to catch cabs for short trips to cut out the hassle of parking. That didn't last long ! She asked me what my experiences with taxi drivers were. I told her and she was absolutely shocked. She had come across the same thing and couldn't believe it as she is over 60 and would never imagine some street zift asking her for sex in a cab.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
Why didn't you just get out of the taxi?
Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a closed space with such a pervert, I would have jumped out without paying. Maybe even taken his taxi ID and reported him to the police.
Posted by Dexter (Member # 16952) on :
Dalia, you are so right. But it was just soooooooo hot and the traffic was not going anywhere. I was in a really bad mood, and if I did get out, the only other option was to stand forever in the baking hot sun for god knows how long for another taxi that was not taken and be ogled the whole time.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
OT ... I much prefer the Metro to a taxi when going from Maadi to Zamalek (or downtown, Mohandesseen etc.) It's much faster and you avoid getting stuck in traffic jams etc.
No harassment either if you take the women's car. Only curious looks from the other ladies. Posted by nevermind (Member # 6674) on :
Haven't tried it myself but a friend who had boyfriend here and spend long months in Cairo sometimes, staying downtown, said she always asked them play the Koran cassette or prayers cassette or something that every Muslim driver supposedly has, because it would be something like a sin if they did not obey. That then cuts any unnecessary conversation
Interestingly I've never had any harrassment and only positive ex with drivers but maybe because I move around in Cairo so seldom, and then I select my drivers by "gut feeling", meaning that if I do not like the face or the conversation manner, then I simply do not take it. And I seem to prefer and also "get" older, fatherly or grandfatherly types .
While (about the blog post) adolescent young men... aren´t these with their "manners" a headache everywhere in the world, maybe just that in Egypt you have greater quantities of them .
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I jump in any old jalopy and I just don't make eye contact or engage in conversation. I put my ipod on if they start yabbering. It may appear rude but it works.
One of my friends makes fake phone calls but one of these days the phone will ring lol...
The best advice I have ever had of an American guy who has been here 20+ years is - if you ever feel threatened or harassed tell him you have his taxi number and get yer camera phone out to snap him. They fear folk knowing they are scum.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I jump in any old jalopy and I just don't make eye contact or engage in conversation. I put my ipod on if they start yabbering. It may appear rude but it works.
One of my friends makes fake phone calls but one of these days the phone will ring lol...
The best advice I have ever had of an American guy who has been here 20+ years is - if you ever feel threatened or harassed tell him you have his taxi number and get yer camera phone out to snap him. They fear folk knowing they are scum.
I meant to add, if they do say inappropriate things just react! They don't expect you too. The couple of occasions they have stepped over the line I make a right scene
One girl a few weeks back as a newbie made the fatal mistake of sitting in the frontof a taxi, he stroked her leg so she beat him round the head lol... she said he soon stopped to let her out.
I don't advocate violence but hey... !!!
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
Sitting in the front of a taxi is like asking for sex in EG Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Yeah, she had only been in town a few days, went straight into a new job that provided transport and I guess she was on the naive list...
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
Have to say I don't understand why people do that here Penny.
I don't know anyone at all who would dream of sitting in the front of a taxi in the UK unless there were 4 passengers and that was the only free seat! Why do it here?
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by nevermind: Interestingly I've never had any harrassment and only positive ex with drivers but maybe because I move around in Cairo so seldom, and then I select my drivers by "gut feeling", meaning that if I do not like the face or the conversation manner, then I simply do not take it.
I have moved in and around Cairo in taxis a lot for years and have very few experiences of harassment. Given the fact that I complain about the harassment a lot and get irritated easily, I think that's a good thing.
I had a few drivers trying to get my phone number, or to flirt with me, or getting too personal in a conversation, but I have never been touched, abducted, experienced a masturbating driver or anything of that kind. I had some very unpleasant experiences with drivers, but those were always about money, not about sexual harassment of any kind. I had a driver trying to follow me up to my apartment because he wasn't happy with what I payed. I had another one following me across a crowded bridge and trying to rip my clothes, arguments about not having change for a 50 LE note when the fare is something like 12 LE, and it's 4 a.m., no store open to get some change ... stuff like that. But no explicit sexual harassment.
Usually, I get in the taxi, say "assalaum alaykum" and make a few short remarks about the weather, the destination, the traffic or whatever. Although my Arabic is not that great, I can communicate about those things well and with very little accent. So the driver is immediately aware of the fact that I'm not a tourist or khawageya who doesn't know her way around. That means, he will only try the things he will try with Egyptians too and not give me the special tourist treatment or ask me out or anything like that.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shanta Qadeama: I don't know anyone at all who would dream of sitting in the front of a taxi in the UK unless there were 4 passengers and that was the only free seat! Why do it here?
In Germany, for example, it is normal to sit in the front, for men and women alike.
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Sitting in the front of a taxi is like asking for sex in EG
Yes, but there are exceptions. If there is heavy traffic and taxis are taking up several passenges, for example.
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
That probably helps Dalia.
I give directions in Arabic and usually have a little bit of a chat in Arabic - it's usually 'where you from' 'do you work' 'do you like it here' 'why do you like it here' 'are you married' (not in an unpleasant way) so I've invented husbands from several different countries now and explained where they're working and talked about them and to the inevitable question about babies I do my downcast frowny faced 'hamdulilah' that stops that conversation
I did get scared one night when the taxi went off down a new unused road and there was noone around - I called one of my friends in a panic and he spoke to the driver who had got lost - taken a turning off the road too soon and he told my friend that he knew I was scared but didn't know how to explain to me that he was lost.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I ALWAYS have change... I have a 'taxi pot' full of 5s and 10s. One less bother.
I am in and out of taxis all day and every day and I even drop the small talk now. I tell them where I want to go. If they ask me how much I walk away and get one who doesn't ask! I don't even engage it that kinda chat.
They can argue all they like, I pay after I have gotten out and I walk off. They never chase me to beg for money I don't owe them lol.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
Usually, I get in the taxi, say "assalaum alaykum" and make a few short remarks about the weather, the destination, the traffic or whatever. [/QB]
I would agree this is the best formula for avoiding harrassment, I have never had any problems with taxi drivers, the majority have been courteous and helpful.
I do sit in the front with drivers when I make the usual trip from Cairo to Alex but then we use the same company and ask for the driver we know if possible. I feel safe to sleep and know these are the sort of guys that would die rather than commit anything embarrasing.
ES does give an unbalanced view so often but thats not to say problems do occur but on the whole they are easily avoided.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I ALWAYS have change... I have a 'taxi pot' full of 5s and 10s. One less bother.
I am in and out of taxis all day and every day and I even drop the small talk now. I tell them where I want to go. If they ask me how much I walk away and get one who doesn't ask! I don't even engage it that kinda chat.
They can argue all they like, I pay after I have gotten out and I walk off. They never chase me to beg for money I don't owe them lol.
I get taxis in Alex and like you I never ask the price, and then when we get there they say pay me what you want..... that one makes me laugh every time!
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CAIRO: A new project aimed at combating sexual harassment on the streets of Cairo will soon be launched. The project, called HarassMap, aims to create a map of the ‘hotspots’ of harassment in Cairo – that is, the places where harassment most frequently occurs.
The interactive project will rely on the public’s participation. A unique mapping technology will use information sent by SMS to HarrassMap’s number to plot the locations where women are harassed. Women who send an SMS to HarrassMap will then receive a response including where the women can receive help, ranging from legal aid to psychological support.
According to co-founder Rebecca Chiao, mapping Cairo’s hotspots is only the first step toward the group’s goal “to change the social acceptability of sexual harassment.”
Once hotspots are identified, HarrassMap will go in groups of volunteers to speak with the community, particularly shop owners.
“Our message is that sexual harassment at these levels, with no consequences or support for women, is against Egyptian values, traditions, religions, everything. We’ve tolerated it and stayed silent for too long and now it has grown out of control,” Chiao told Bikya Masr.
“And it is only us, the community, that can stop it. So shop owners can change their neighborhoods by pledging to stop harassers when they see them, and they can put a sticker in their window to make their store a safe zone for women.”
Engy Ghozlan, one of the women working with Chiao on the program, echoed Chiao’s sentiments.
“We are hoping that this map would create a sense of the problem and community ownership,” she told Bikya Masr, and they’re “making the best out of the current social media tools at hand” to get the job done.
With Egypt’s mobile phone network containing some 55 million users, the potential for HarrassMap is huge. It is this potential the group hopes to tap into. Most NGOs dealing with women’s issues in Egypt focus on advocacy, said Chiao. HarrassMap wants to compliment the work of the NGOs by bringing the issue back to the public. “The other projects focus on changing the legal system,” she said. “We want to support them, but also focus on changing what’s happening in the street.”
HarrassMap’s goal – “to reach a level of community support for stopping harassment, so that the environment will no longer tolerate harassers” – may seem lofty to some, particularly to the women who face verbal or physical harassment daily on the streets of Cairo. Yet it is also a much needed change.
Perhaps going to the daily cause and effect of harassment will be more effective on some levels than lobbying to change legislation. It is the underlying social situation that HarrassMap ultimately wants to change.
“We want men to tell other men that [harassment] is not ok; women to tell other women it’s not their fault… and the public in general to start speaking up and interfering when they see it happen,” said Chiao.
“Egypt deserves better,” said Ghozlan. “We can’t stay in silence while our home is contaminated by new trends of immoral values that are certainly weird and new to the Egyptian society.
“Egyptians were always known by being there for each other and it’s that sense of social responsibility that we are trying to bring back.”
tigerweedbitchboreslut would kill for any action she would love harassment to save her cyberslutting for men online. see why she is desperate to get back to egypt?and she has kids? shame shame shame for them Posted by Miss_Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Cairo, Egypt (CNN) – Young, old, foreign, Egyptian, poor, middleclass, or wealthy, it doesn't matter. Dressed in hijab, niqab, or western wear, it doesn't matter.
If you are a woman living in Cairo, chances are you have been sexually harassed. It happens on the streets, on crowded buses, in the workplace, in schools, and even in a doctor's office.
According to a 2008 survey of 1,010 women conducted by the Egyptian Center for Women's rights, 98 percent of foreign women and 83 percent of Egyptian women have been sexually harassed.
I know, it has happened to me. Last week, I was walking home from dinner when a carload of young men raced by me and screamed out "Sharmouta" (whore in Arabic.)
Before I could respond, they were gone, but I noticed policemen nearby bursting with laughter. I am old enough to be those boys' mother, I thought.
This incident was minor compared to what happened in 1994, shortly after I moved here. It was winter, and I was walking home from the office, dressed in a big, baggy sweater, and jacket. A man walked up to me, reached out, and casually grabbed my breast.
In a flash, I understood what the expression to "see red" meant. I grabbed him by the collar and punched him hard in the face. I held on to him, and let out a stream of expletives. His face grew pale, and he started to shake. "I'm sorry. I'm sorry," he whispered.
But the satisfaction of striking back quickly dissipated. By the time I walked away, I was feeling dirty and humiliated. After a couple of years enduring this kind harassment, I pretty much stopped walking to and from work.
Of course, harassment comes in many forms. It can be nasty words, groping, being followed or stalked, lewd, lascivious looks, and indecent exposure.
At times it can be dangerous. This is what a friend told me happened to her: "I remember I was walking on the street, when a car came hurtling towards me. Aiming for me! At the last minute he swerved, then stopped, and finally laughed at me. I learned later that it was a form of flirting."
Why is sexual harassment in Egypt so rampant? There could be any number of reasons, but many point to disregard for human rights.
"Egypt is more interested in political security, than public security," said Nehad Abu el Komsan, the Director for the Center for Women's Rights. She says that often means officials focus more on preventing political unrest than addressing social ills.
Some also blame the spread of more conservative interpretations of Islam from the Gulf over the past 30 years. They say such interpretations demand more restrictive roles for women and condemn women who step outside of those prescribed roles.
"Four million Egyptians went to the Gulf," el Komsan says. "They returned with oil money, and oil culture, which is not very open, related to the status of women. All of this changed the original culture of the Egyptian," she adds, "which included high respect for women.”
"The concept of respect for some reason doesn't exist anymore," says Sara, a young Egyptian activist. "I think Egypt has lived a very long time in denial. Something happened in Egyptian society in the last 30 or 40 years. It feels like the whole social diagram has collapsed."
What is being done to raise awareness and combat Sexual harassment? Currently Egypt has no law that specifically deals with the problem, but that could change. The government is drafting legislation that would give a clear definition for sexual harassment.
In the past, women who have been sexually harassed here have been too afraid or ashamed to speak up. That too is changing slowly. In 2008, in a landmark court case, a man was sentenced to three years of hard labor for grabbing the breast of Noha Rushdi Saleh, a brave woman determined to seek justice.
The trial was covered extensively in the Egyptian press, and brought the problem of sexual harassment out in the open.
The latest campaign to combat sexual harassment is a joint Egyptian and American website called Harassmap, due to go online in December.
Rebecca Chiao, co-founder of Harassmap explains how it will work: " We can receive reports by SMS, by Twitter, by e-mail, or by phone. When an incident happens, they will send us their location. The computer will receive this, and we will look at the reports coming in and map them on a Google map of Egypt. It will show the hotspots. When the hotspots emerge, we have planned community outreach that will occur around these hotspots.”
Downtown Cairo is one of these hotspots. In 2008, during the Eid holiday, which marks the end of the holy Muslim month of Ramadan, gangs of young men went on a rampage, groping women and, in some cases, ripping off womens' shirts.
This incident also got a lot of attention in the media here. Police arrested dozens of men. With the renewed efforts to raise awareness about the issue, and the government's move toward putting a new law in place, there is hope that women will be able to feel safer on the streets.
But the only real protection women can have is when the attitudes of men change.
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Posted by Miss_Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Egypt reports massive sexual harassment during holiday
Nov 23rd, 2010 | By Joseph Mayton
CAIRO: Egyptian police stations reported at least 600 incidents of sexual harassment during the first day of the Eid al-Adha holiday last week. Police stations in Cairo, Giza, Helwan and Alexandria reported that as a result of streets being filled with young boys in celebration, there “were incidents of mass sexual harassment.”
Committing a blood bath and attacking women in public – what a wonderful way to celebrate your faith! Posted by Mrs Hassan (Member # 15069) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: Committing a blood bath and attacking women in public – what a wonderful way to celebrate your faith!
LOL... Thats what makes the country so interesting! Like it, Live it, Love it!
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Egypt teenager attempts to kill herself after being harassed
Jul 6th, 2011 | By Bikya Masr Staff | Category: Egypt, Sexual Harassment
CAIRO: A 15-year-old girl jumped out of her second floor apartment in Marsa Matroh on Egypt’s northwest coast after she was sexually harassed by the son of the building’s owner, Egypt’s state-run MENA news agency reported on Monday.
Mai M., a student, arrived at a local hospital suffering from a fracture to her skull and internal bleeding. She is currently in intensive care.
The girl was heading to her family’s apartment when the son of the building owner, 41, tried to forcibly kiss her and groped her, her father reported to police. She reached her apartment in a poor state and threw herself off the balcony, the family reported.
Press reported that police officials are looking for the accused man for questioning.
The family had been vacationing in the building for the summer....
learn the women to protect themself, defend themself and just give a whack back. Men have to learn they can not use women. All women have to tell the the young children. Again and again to boys and girls
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
What Egypt needs to do is move all the Egyptian women between the ages of 13 and 40 over to the UK and Germany to live out their existence in peace.
In turn take the UK and German women over the age of 50 to repopulate the female section of Egypt.
It will reduce sexual harassment and put the Egyptian men to work.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: What Egypt needs to do is move all the Egyptian women between the ages of 13 and 40 over to the UK and Germany to live out their existence in peace.
In turn take the UK and German women over the age of 50 to repopulate the female section of Egypt.
It will reduce sexual harassment and put the Egyptian men to work.
Seriously, see a doctor, soon.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: What Egypt needs to do is move all the Egyptian women between the ages of 13 and 40 over to the UK and Germany to live out their existence in peace.
In turn take the UK and German women over the age of 50 to repopulate the female section of Egypt.
It will reduce sexual harassment and put the Egyptian men to work.
Seriously, see a doctor, soon.
is there any black market prozac you can acquire in Luxor?
Hows the tourism industry going when your boss has one flat rented and the rest are empty?
doesn't look like you can stay afloat when you've only booked one flat this week, month....
Not that I feel sorry for you or akshar that your only means of livelihood has gone up in the ashes of the revolution.
I consider it a good thing! Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
It is green Sono again.
you know the one with no career, no daughter, no future, no house and now it looks like no meds. Call 911 Sono and get the men in white coats, they do home visits and you could sure use them
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: What Egypt needs to do is move all the Egyptian women between the ages of 13 and 40 over to the UK and Germany to live out their existence in peace.
In turn take the UK and German women over the age of 50 to repopulate the female section of Egypt.
It will reduce sexual harassment and put the Egyptian men to work.
Seriously, see a doctor, soon.
is there any black market prozac you can acquire in Luxor?
OTC, you want me to send you some?
quote:Hows the tourism industry going when your boss has one flat rented and the rest are empty?
my boss? oh do tell, who do I work for now? Ahh, got it still on me working for Jane
Jane, I want paying
quote:doesn't look like you can stay afloat when you've only booked one flat this week, month....
I'm doing fine, tourism doesn't affect my work in the slightest
quote:Not that I feel sorry for you or akshar that your only means of livelihood has gone up in the ashes of the revolution.
I consider it a good thing!
You couldn't be far wrong, my means of income are among you Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
Sono there is a simple analytic about how well my business is doing. How much Marmite have I got in my cupboard. Fully stocked at the moment so that must mean I am getting enough guests to keep me in Marmite.
And on that note I would remind you Ayisha I gave you a half full jar, so that means I HAVE paid you for this year.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by akshar: Sono there is a simple analytic about how well my business is doing. How much Marmite have I got in my cupboard. Fully stocked at the moment so that must mean I am getting enough guests to keep me in Marmite.
And on that note I would remind you Ayisha I gave you a half full jar, so that means I HAVE paid you for this year.
but it's all gone now Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
<like>
Posted by Vader- (Member # 14189) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr: Egypt teenager attempts to kill herself after being harassed
Jul 6th, 2011 | By Bikya Masr Staff | Category: Egypt, Sexual Harassment
CAIRO: A 15-year-old girl jumped out of her second floor apartment in Marsa Matroh on Egypt’s northwest coast after she was sexually harassed by the son of the building’s owner, Egypt’s state-run MENA news agency reported on Monday.
Mai M., a student, arrived at a local hospital suffering from a fracture to her skull and internal bleeding. She is currently in intensive care.
The girl was heading to her family’s apartment when the son of the building owner, 41, tried to forcibly kiss her and groped her, her father reported to police. She reached her apartment in a poor state and threw herself off the balcony, the family reported.
Press reported that police officials are looking for the accused man for questioning.
The family had been vacationing in the building for the summer....
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Who ever said we were angels and why the need to bend over backwards? ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I must admit i lost it i turned around and begain punching him on the head and shouted. To be fair other men on the bus were very angry with him and slapped him too. The bus stopped and the driver chucked him off. I NEVER wear revealing clothes and am always covered (long sleeves long skirt/trousers) and i have had so many things happen to me it would take me a year to explain them but i do find it very sad but angry that this happens.