I have been giving this subject a lot of thought recently. And of course I have asked a lot of people, really pinned them down actually. This is not an anti-Egyptian rant. I like the people here, more so, as I get under the skin of them. And I do have Egyptian friends that I am very fond of. And they are very fond of me, but I wouldn't want my life to depend on it. We as foreigners, living here, or otherwise involved with Egyptians, all pretty much love the Egyptian people, don't we? Renowned for their friendliness, always eager to please, if you want to feel 'special', just step out onto the street. They even fall in love with us! Partly the thread 'On the Lam ..' got me thinking again; that young pretty handsome young man, and his 'blushing bride'. hmmmm. In the resorts, there are many of these guys, I'd think of them as genetic aberrations, except there's so many of them. I have heard middle-aged ladies telling me quite seriously that they believe the lack of an 'age gap problem' here, is amazing, but very real! They genuinely believe that their young boyfriend is going against every cultural,social, natural instinct, just because he's in love, really in love, for ever ... Someone remarked to me recently, 'No decent family would allow their son or daughter marry a foreigner'. ouch. Overwhelmingly these May/Sepember marriage deals are seen as simply a money making scam; and almost overwhelmingly, I have found that no Egyptian feels the slightest sympathy for the poor trusting women [and often men] who fall victim to their own romantic hopes. So .... to get to the heart of it, I asked people if they 'really' liked foreigners, generally. [The late government's attempt to blame its problems on 'foreigners' was pretty eagerly embraced in some circles, wasn't it?]
I was finally able to deduce, that under the 'Welcome to Egypt, enjoy your stay..' stuff, they actually don't like us very much at all I'm afraid. As Westerners we are considered promiscuous, naiive, spoilt ['Oversexed, Overpaid, and Over Here' basically.] We dump our old people in institutions, we allow our children to drink alcohol and have sex in their early teens, when they are not out robbing and killing strangers on the street, etc. All stereotypes, all based on watching too many movies on TV, but beneath the smiles, we really are perceived as immoral drunks who don't deserve our luxury lifestyles [??] Strangely, the better educated, better off, people I've met, were more willing to admit to this, and try to explain it. Even accepting that they are being unreasonable.'Just our culture I'm afraid.It's not just Westerners, we aren't crazy about Arabs, Africans etc. either.' Hhmphh. But I suspect this is a result of TV, and post 9/11 seige mentality.And a great deal of envy I suspect. Apparently, in the 'good old days', the many many foreigners here were really popular, regardless of politics. And sorry, they don't admire our natural openess and basic honesty, they either see it as a con trick, or just plain stupidity.
Am I alone in thinking this? Or just having a bad week?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I was finally able to deduce, that under the 'Welcome to Egypt, enjoy your stay..' stuff, they actually don't like us very much at all I'm afraid. As Westerners we are considered promiscuous, naiive, spoilt ['Oversexed, Overpaid, and Over Here' basically.] We dump our old people in institutions, we allow our children to drink alcohol and have sex in their early teens, when they are not out robbing and killing strangers on the street, etc. All stereotypes, all based on watching too many movies on TV, but beneath the smiles, we really are perceived as immoral drunks who don't deserve our luxury lifestyles [??]
It's not just Western TV, it's also the fact that those misconceptions are being used, abused and consciously spread by many religious figures. Listen to a khutba, pick up an *Islamic* book or pamphlet, watch the preachers on the Saudi-sponsored TV channels, look closely at an Amr Khaled lecture … they are all using the "bad, immoral West" argument in one way or the other in order to make people believe that the lifestyle they are propagating is far better and morally superior.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
This is mostly true for mankind in general. Egyptians are however one of the most tolerant people, and I've traveled a lot. Much more tolerant than Europeans for example. White people are indeed deemed dirty by many Egyptians. TV/Movies are not culprit, but rather the actions of many white people in Egypt are the reason for this thinking. Egyptians share their experiences. One of my landlords there couldn't stop mentioning the White female foreigner who rented an apartment for $1500 and he kicked her out because she was constantly bringing in men to her apartment at all hours. A friend of mine was shocked after Fffing his Italian girlfriend she simple put on her pants (no washing). Another Italian lady gave the brother of my friend an STD. My maid told me she'll never work for a white man because they live like pigs. Don't forget Luxor, Hurghada, Sharm and the stories that come out of them. There are endless accounts, and again Egyptians spread the news around. Europeans have lived in Egypt for centuries, the bad reputation they're getting wasn't borne by movies.
As for disliking Arabs, well they mainly dislike Saudis, Kuwaitis and Bahrainis. And this is the result of the mistreatment that Egyptian expats receive in those countries. Egyptians like Lebanese, Moroccans, Jordanians, etc
As for Sub-Sahrans. Southern Sudanese prostitutes and Southern Sudanese men who work at a fraction of an Egyptian wage are a reason why Egyptians dislike them. Many ghettos in Cairo, have Sub-Saharan families that live in small slummy apartments with like 20 ppl inside. Egyptians don't harm them but they are deemed as a drain on society. There is also resentment as there are rumors that all of them receive monthly allocations from UNCHR.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
I can only talk about people I know and I feel really loved and welcome, maybe because I provide work for people.
The bad comments I have heard have been against individuals but never against Westerns as a whole.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
I do remember reading an article - it must have been Al Ahram Weekly - about 3 years ago where a Hindu doctor from India had come to Egypt to do medical research in villages, and every time he and his Egyptian villager entourage passed a cow, they respectfully asked him if he wanted them to move away so he could worship it Wish I could find a link to it now.
Agree with Exiled that it's common over the globe. I mean look at the misconceptions and prejudices Brits have had of immigrants over the years - 'behaving like animals' 'at it like rabbits' 'living 100 to a room (often out of necessity!)' 'government handouts that should be going to our own' 'taking jobs from our people' (that 'our' people wouldn't even consider doing) etc etc.
I remember aging relatives coming out with things like 'XXX are dirty and filthy people, but that Mrs P keeps her house nice and was so kind to me when I had that fall' and those kind of things. By getting to know individuals perceptions can start to change.
Personally, I have Egyptian friends who I believe are genuine. Sometimes I have to gently disabuse them of some ideas about Brits gleaned from The Daily Mail!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
If it's any consolation Europeans are deemed outstanding and professional in many parts of Asia. Companies even “rent White foreigners” in China - I kid you not. In South East Asia, Nigerians and Iranians can never catch a break. They are deemed drug smugglers and con artists. This is the result of a few bad apples that are caught scamming people and also the constant negative press from arrests for drug smuggling at airports.
That's life. Everybody is on some ****-list, somewhere.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Yeah, back in the 1970s, in Britain it was popularly supposed that Brits were lazy good for nothings, but Germans were incredibly hard working. When I went to live/work in Germany in the 70s, they - in their own country - were just the same as the Brits - in their own country - in terms of actual work production ie 8 hours at work of which about 6 hours were spent moaning about how hard life was. I can honestly say that the Brits were the hardest workers of the lot in the place we were working.
Over the years I have formed the opinion that generally speaking (of course not all), immigrants are much harder working than the indigenous population. Often doing jobs that they wouldn't consider doing in their home country or working 2 or 3 jobs to make ends meet.
Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
Back to the original topic - do Egyptians like us?
Yes definitely. I never felt so welcomed anywhere else than in Egypt. Most of them are just plain friendly and down-to-earth. People who don't know you offer their help and even want to share their food with you. Seriously there is no way to have that kind of experience in Germany. No way!!!!!!!
Of course you need to be careful when it comes to offered help and friendship by Egyptians as some will use the trust you put into them to make business or start a relationship with you for their own gain. Egyptian men in particular can be such charmers so keep both eyes open as a woman, think rational and don't agree to anything what you wouldn't do back home. Otherwise everything else is allowed - but on your terms. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: That's life. Everybody is on some ****-list, somewhere.
Couldn't agree more.
I was waiting for the Daily Mail to pop up. Kind of epitomises that particular mentality. Loved the fact that where I used to live everyone was bitching and whining about the Poles moving in and stealing all their jobs. I worked in immigration at the time and can certify that 80% were self-employed AND paid their taxes. We were never so fussy about taking those And those that were employed not only did the jobs the whiners didn't want to do, but did them to a much higher standard. I agree that immigrants are harder working than patriots, on the whole.
There are things we Brits have gotten wrong and I don't think all the criticism is without foundation. We all drift around moving from place to place without a blink and family ties do get severed in a way I don't think they do out there. I know I could pass a couple of my cousins in the street now and not know who they were. Anyone watch Heir Hunters? You get a good idea of how many poor old duffers end their days without a soul to turn to and some of them leave huuuuge extended families. On the flip side, we live with a huge amount of freedom and aren't nearly so constricted by "what uncle Bob would have to say about that". And I can imagine it would be a tremendous pain in the derriere if uncle Bob's word was law and he wasn't a reasonable kind of fella.
We have democracy and it's nothing to be sniffed at. Do you truly get that where there is elitism? Where you have families sticking together, pooling their assets and recruiting their own, the rich generally stay rich and the poor stay poor. Saying that though, look at Pakistanis here with their businesses. When one starts up they all chip in, wealth breeds wealth so before you know it, one business turns into ten. We may be missing a trick there but we tend to be more secular with our wealth and keep it within immediate family, even within couples. We don't want the interfering inlaws - heaven forbid - uncle Bob sticking his oar in.
Meh. One society is better in some ways, the other in others. One are like apples, one like oranges, but at the end of the day, we're all fruit Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
They love us enough to grope us and masterbate on the street in front of us! And they call us immoral.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Cheeky, I have to tell you, I've seen a flasher here. Pulled over in some beat up old car when I was little, dirty old weirdo. Told my folks when I got home and they marched me off to the police station - which is definitely the way to go. If we are more open about this kind of thing, I see it as no bad thing.
Not so good trying to explain what he was doing in front of my parental guardian (my dad) though. Don't think they thought that one through...
Only ever saw one.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
Noone's ever done that to me in Egypt, they did plenty of times in the UK though
In coming here for 6 years and living here for 3.5 years I have had precisely one guy pat my butt - and that was in a 'classy' area - Zamalek.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
What did you do? I was soooooo mad I was looking around for something to put through his windscreen. Really, I was the shyest most polite little kid ever (in public, anyways), but it was just an outrage - main road in broad daylight. Just up the road from the police station!
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Oh I haven't been groped here, just had the pleasure of watching perverts masterbating!!!
I have been groped and flashed at in the UK more than here, I was just making a point that they think we lack morals!
If I didn't think the people here in my life didn't like me and mean it I wouldn't have been coming here for 18 years. What the rest think doesn't bother me Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
I yelled at him. Later the same day I thought someone might have groped me on the microbus from under the seat, but now I have been on loads of microbuses, I realise it can't possibly have happened in the position I was in and I must have been sitting awkwardly on the toggle of my jacket or something.
I did have that incident with the police man (bossa bossa habiby) after I nearly drowned in a pit of quicksand by the pyramids - it's on here somewhere, about 3 years ago, but I can't be bothered to seek it out
All I can say is if you folk living in the UK have never seen flashers there, you must be living in a convent because I saw at least one a week on the trains or underground (metro) in London, in their posh suits with their flies open and their willies hanging out behind their newspapers hoping you would notice!
My mum was in a carriage (in South London) with a guy once in her smart suit and he got his wodger out, and she said in her most uppercrust voice "I think you should cover yourself up".
Another friend on the way home from work (in London) about 7pm one evening had a bloke come up close behind her and when she got home there was white stuff dripping all down her back. I don't need to tell you what it was.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
@ Cheeky I just think of my fella's family - his brother in law trying to speak English and just brimming with pride when we went to their home and his sister sitting there crocheting like crazy then giving me a cardie to take home on the very last day. And cooking - keep appearing with meal after meal - eat, eat. And his mum and his grandma - heck, even the guy with the driver who took us for this vanilla/potato starch milk drink (what is that? it was really nice) and trying to practice his English. It was a pretty damned good impression of not hating my guts if that really is the case.
I do remember being watched like a hawk when there was a serial on TV. It was Australian and on waltzed a woman with four kids by all different fathers. I gave the obligatory tut and shake of the head. It did strike me as some weird propaganda thing TBH. Is this really the norm in the native English speaking world?
@Shanta I've always lived in the sticks. Ew!!!! Did you ever point and laugh? I think as an adult that's the tack I'd be taking Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
@Monkey re kids by different fathers in the UK - I would say that is pretty common actually. Without overstretching my brain I can think of 5 or 6 that I personally know (and know I know if you get my drift! Maybe more that I don't know the kids are by different fathers).
Then again, my good friend who lived in Kuwait for years told me that because they marry young girls off to old guys who can't 'do' it, there's a thriving business in certain lingerie shops where the backs are fitted out with beds and young men from another Arabic country (which I won't name because everyone will attack me) provide the necessary services so who knows who the father is!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Yeah, I mean a woman with two or three or four kids by two different fathers isn't unusual. But four kids by four different fathers? This would be a little extreme, surely? I can't think of anyone I know at all. Not even on the soaps.
Except... maybe Carol Jackson?
Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: They love us enough to grope us and masterbate on the street in front of us! And they call us immoral.
OMG !
Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Yeah, I mean a woman with two or three or four kids by two different fathers isn't unusual. But four kids by four different fathers? This would be a little extreme, surely? I can't think of anyone I know at all.
Aint they referred as to 4x4 like cars lol;) Urika Johnson lol
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Life is a journey:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: They love us enough to grope us and masterbate on the street in front of us! And they call us immoral.
OMG !
1 outside the Metro 1pm in the afternoon while I was with my Mum and a young girl from Palestine, once outside my apartment.. and I sawa dude in Spinneys by the fish counter having a fiddle in his galabeya!!!
I have seen young girls in clubs so drunk they are vomiting on themselves too... which is why I like to hear how they view us western girls when I get to witness this Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
@ LIAJ Really? I never knew that. I've known plenty of folks who've married 3 or 4 times but 3 and 4 tended to be when they were older.
Damn, I bet she's accumulated some serious bling over the years. Doubt any of them worked at Asda.
Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
Ihave never seen a flasher ! I have always been welcomed in Egypt. However this is what i have observed : 1. guys always try and stare you out, i never look away, the guy then hurries off lol. only to foreign women though
2. As we are foreigners, we are rich,so should pay more for the same thing as them
3. Taxi drivers face light up when they see foreigners - that taxi ride has just doubled lol
4.Women are so much morally better then us western whores - yet pot kettle black from what i have seen.
5. i have a tattoo that someone sd was harem !!
6. women can be extremely bitchy more so then english. overall egyptian women often view themselves as beautiful brincess lol
overall we r welcome as long as we spend money, leave their brinces alone lol
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Life is a journey: Ihave never seen a flasher ! I have always been welcomed in Egypt. However this is what i have observed : 1. guys always try and stare you out, i never look away, the guy then hurries off lol. only to foreign women though
2. As we are foreigners, we are rich,so should pay more for the same thing as them
3. Taxi drivers face light up when they see foreigners - that taxi ride has just doubled lol
4.Women are so much morally better then us western whores - yet pot kettle black from what i have seen.
5. i have a tattoo that someone sd was harem !!
6. women can be extremely bitchy more so then english. overall egyptian women often view themselves as beautiful brincess lol
overall we r welcome as long as we spend money, leave their brinces alone lol
Double taxi fares... triple yesterday!
Sure Egyptians are welcoming, most humans are but for them to try to gain moral high ground simply is purely laughable to me!
Liaj, if you want a tattoo while you are here there is a new parlour in Heliopolis... Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
CF - I want one to get another one, might have alook there xx
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Life is a journey: 4.Women are so much morally better then us western whores - yet pot kettle black from what i have seen.
5. i have a tattoo that someone sd was harem !!
6. women can be extremely bitchy more so then english. overall egyptian women often view themselves as beautiful brincess lol
4. I get that only from young women who aren't married yet.
5. I feel the same way, I hate tatts
6. I find EU especially Brit women far bitchier than Egyptian women.
Lastly I don't get charged double because I don't pay for anything. WHen I am in Egypt my in-laws pay, even when I go into a store by myself and they know my in-laws they refuse payment and insist my in-laws will pay later.
As for stores that don't know my in-laws at all, the prices are marked and I pay that amount. I've seen the shop owner give a younger employee hell for not counting back my money. Even if they counted back in Arabic.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Brits comment - priceless.
Some of them aren't there with Egyptian hubbys though Metinoot. Or does every taxi driver in Egypt know your inlaws?
Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Life is a journey: 4.Women are so much morally better then us western whores - yet pot kettle black from what i have seen.
5. i have a tattoo that someone sd was harem !!
6. women can be extremely bitchy more so then english. overall egyptian women often view themselves as beautiful brincess lol
4. I get that only from young women who aren't married yet.
5. I feel the same way, I hate tatts
6. I find EU especially Brit women far bitchier than Egyptian women.
Lastly I don't get charged double because I don't pay for anything. WHen I am in Egypt my in-laws pay, even when I go into a store by myself and they know my in-laws they refuse payment and insist my in-laws will pay later.
As for stores that don't know my in-laws at all, the prices are marked and I pay that amount. I've seen the shop owner give a younger employee hell for not counting back my money. Even if they counted back in Arabic.
When you say you dont pay for anything ? Nothing is free in life. What have you given up to get such honours ?? The only time i have seen things with a marked price is in supermarkets everything has can be discussed
What are your inlaws the mafia or something ? or just part of the old NDP ? LOL
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Can't imagine not paying for anything. When you pick up things to take back for your family, surely you don't let his family pay then?
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Life is a journey: When you say you dont pay for anything ? Nothing is free in life. What have you given up to get such honours ?? The only time i have seen things with a marked price is in supermarkets everything has can be discussed
What are your inlaws the mafia or something ? or just part of the old NDP ? LOL
I didn't say it was free, I stated my in-laws pay for the things I buy.
I go to regular shops in which they might see a foreigner in their store a couple times a year, or a couple times a week. Prices are always marked.
I don't think Egypt has a mafia, part of the old NDP? Not really, mainly generals, majors in the military, a couple of parliment members, an Ambassador to China and the rest everyday civil servants normally manager types.
My father-in-law was a big man in education, and a several time Hajji. Therefore they know who I am because my father in-law calls ahead of time to the precinct sargent to tell them he's coming by a certain district to shop. Its unusual, but my father in-law doesn't need any scandals that other foreigners experience.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Can't imagine not paying for anything. When you pick up things to take back for your family, surely you don't let his family pay then?
Yeah all the time. But I pay Egyptian prices outside of tourism or resort areas.
You pay 200LE for a rug, I pay 40LE for the same rug. You buy in Sharm I buy in Alex Shatby or Cleopatra neighborhood.
Of course when I come to Egypt I have two huge suitcases with are filled to the brim with presents for them by request.
I normally carry 3 outfits and sparse hygeine products and buy more of what i need when I am there. The rest is presents.
My ex husband does pay for everything but my father in -law will pay for part of the ticket and my ex will pay for the other part. I've never paid for air fare even.
I will say this, when I am in town my brother in-law does excuse himself from his government job as a vacation. Very few employees of this job specification can get "vacation" time on such short notice.
And I always take coffee at the Officer's club to which retired patrons who hang out there ask about my vacation plans and look into where I am going to ensure I don't suffer any of the hassles you ladies do. Its out of respect for my in-laws. Most of the officers have parents who still work the farm land my in-laws own, and they do it out of respect and gratitude because their parents do get looked after even when they are too old to work. Though they do walk around and offer advice/oversee work done by the younger people. They are retired tenant farmers but still spend all day walking around helping plan the next season's crops. Its a beautiful way of life.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
I also can't do the things other foreign women do to cause scandals.
But then I don't party hardy in my American community here stateside so I don't have the need to get "wild" and chasy boys in Egypt either.
Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: I also can't do the things other foreign women do to cause scandals.
But then I don't party hardy in my American community here stateside so I don't have the need to get "wild" and chasy boys in Egypt either.
What i am confused ??
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Me too.
So you bring two huge suitcases and a long list of requests from your family and your ex picks up the tab? And this is something to shout about?
When you arrive, do you give the ex's family presents paid for by your family?
I'm missing a trick here.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Me too.
So you bring two huge suitcases and a long list of requests from your family and your ex picks up the tab? And this is something to shout about?
When you arrive, do you give the ex's family presents paid for by your family?
I'm missing a trick here.
No trick.
My family doesn't have any requests for items from Egypt. My in-laws do suggest I buy something that my family back in Minnesota would appreciate as a gift. Normally large beach towels.
My ex husband pays for the gifts (I do too when I have extra money and I know my ex doesn't want to pay for an item) I carefully pack them and weigh the luggage. The airline check in persons normally wave an extra 5-10 lbs, they are quiet about it and do ask if most of the items are gifts.
when I am there in Egypt I do have a nominal list of things I need to pick up for me or for my ex-husband. When I can't find certain items, my mother in-law will either get them herself or bring me with.
Its pretty much whatever I want. And we have had a great track record of acquiring the items they want me to bring.
I've only spent one night in a hotel, never been to a resort and we cram in possibly 5-15 tourist attractions while I am there. And Egyptian only transportion, no guided tours.
But I do the obligatory family visits in the village. WHich is pretty awesome because the villas are so cool (temp) compared to the flats in Alex and Cairo.
What bothers me most is I am not encouraged to do any cleaning or cooking. but I will run an errand when my mother in-law runs out of something, I do get escourted by a little neice or my daughter.
Arabs have a custom of hospitality in which "travelers" aren't supposed to pick up the tab.
Middle ages in Cairo there were "taverns" in which Imams organized so caravan travelers or pilgrims would stay for a nominal donation and food was often provided. The travelers/pilgrims were often informed of local laws, customs and how they were expected to behave.
Nowdays tourist pay their way entirely, but also behave how they want.
There is a clear distinction between modern vacationers and travelers/pilgrims.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Oh Sono, you try so hard to sound elite but I flew back and forward for years without paying for flights... but I didn't have to sponge off a dude or his family for the honour
Also, after 20 years in the ME none of the above is hassle, it is merely life. Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Oh Sono, you try so hard to sound elite but I flew back and forward for years without paying for flights... but I didn't have to sponge off a dude or his family for the honour
Also, after 20 years in the ME none of the above is hassle, it is merely life.
If that works for you fine. But you aren't/weren't married to an Egyptian nor did you have his child. To my former in-laws I am still married to their son until I remarry.
You get to go bar-hopping, behave as you like, openly casually date according to western mores; and I gave that up.
When I am in Egypt I am expected to follow the similar expectations that my sister-in-laws follow. And it isn't that restrictive.
I just can't talk to men I don't know, or men my in-laws don't know. Still older men (over 45 years) do tear into my sister and brother in-laws and tell them to be more progressive. If an older man wants to give suggestions and say hello and welcome it isn't going to cause a scandal.
My younger-in-laws do get tense about this, and the young girls normally tell a young guy off pretty quickly. Its cute.
When in rome do as the romans do. Its Egypt, I live by their rules, and its not that restrictive.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I don't know, if it were me buying gifts I'd want to be paying for them otherwise is it even from you? Maybe it's me. I'm weird like that. But I don't like people buying things for me. I mean, take me for a meal, nice, buy me a present, fine. But if I go to a shop and I hear "I'll get that" suddenly I don't want it anymore. And I won't want anything else either, which kind of means the shopping trip is at an end.
Dunno. I can't imagine being much different if I was married. I know I'd spend a damned sight less on frivolous stuff from any joint account because I'd just feel bad spending money that wasn't mine. And I like frivolous stuff
Unless I was a housewife - that would be fair dues. No... maybe even then? I dunno.
I think this conversation has been had before but I do think American women have a different take on the whole being provided for thing than Brits. It's alright to some extent but I actually like having my own money and not having to wait for an offer, or worse still, ask. I think I'd hate it. Isn't a bit like a little woman thing?
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Know what you mean Monkey, when someone says "You only have to ask." What it really means is 'you always have to ask'. Makes me cringe thinking about it. I've got an old friend here [and I MEAN old!] nice old guy, bit old school, and if I run into him in the supermarket he tries to buy my groceries for God's sake. Actually, he reminds me of Metinoot's mob.Witters on about his military nonsense waaay back, and gets called 'Bey' by his flunkies. haha. given up the idea of finding a rich old man, I'd feel like a pet budgie.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I don't know, if it were me buying gifts I'd want to be paying for them otherwise is it even from you? Maybe it's me. I'm weird like that. But I don't like people buying me things. I mean, take me for a meal, nice, buy me a present, fine. But if I go to a shop and I hear "I'll get that" suddenly I don't want it anymore. And I won't want anything else either, which kind of means the shopping trip is at an end.
Dunno. I can't imagine being much different if I was married. I know I'd spend a damned sight less on frivolous stuff from any joint account because I'd just feel bad spending money that wasn't mine. And I like frivolous stuff
Unless I was a housewife - that would be fair dues. No... maybe even then? I dunno.
I think this conversation has been had before but I do think American women have a different take on the whole being provided for thing than Brits. It's alright to some extent but I actually like having my own money and not having to wait for an offer, or worse still, ask. I think I'd hate it.
Oh boy the Anti-Americanism again.
If I was a Brit, an European, an Asian, a Ruski, a Brazilian it would be the same. WHen in Egypt they pay. And I behave by Egyptian mores.
I am not discussing the finances between my ex and I when we were married because 1. its in the past, 2. its private, 3. its a culture class from hell.
What I do know is my sister-in-laws financial agreement between them and their husbands is none of my f*cking businesses and I have never asked.
My sister-in-laws do pay their way even when their hubbies are with, only one of them will bust his seams and go beserk if he isn't given the option to pay.
Its because I am a visitor, not because I am a woman.
If I lived there it would be a different story all together. But I have been told if I would go out in public with my father-in-law he'd always pay, but with my mother-in-law and I was living there I'd probably pay more often than not.
Not everything is a gender war, and American ways of money negiotiation aren't always the best.
Again: Its because I am a visitor, not because I am a woman. Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Know what you mean Monkey, when someone says "You only have to ask." What it really means is 'you always have to ask'. Makes me cringe thinking about it. I've got an old friend here [and I MEAN old!] nice old guy, bit old school, and if I run into him in the supermarket he tries to buy my groceries for God's sake. Actually, he reminds me of Metinoot's mob.Witters on about his military nonsense waaay back, and gets called 'Bey' by his flunkies. haha. given up the idea of finding a rich old man, I'd feel like a pet budgie.
There is a huge wide vast gray area between meeting an Egyptian guy who works in tourism while you are vacation versus meeting an Egyptian guy in the west who comes from a family in which have centuries of stature and means.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Yeah, it does sound like they only ever treated you like a tourist.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Yeah, it does sound like they only ever treated you like a tourist.
No I was treated like a visitor, not a modern tourist.
This is one of the oldest arguments on ES.
Western women in equitable relationships vs. holiday romances and intolerant expats.
If you gals are going to open up a thread in which you expect Egyptians to be tolerant of westerners behaving badly in Egypt and not to be gouged financially then expect someone to disagree with you.
You can't have your cake and eat it too, without repurcusions.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: this vanilla/potato starch milk drink (what is that? it was really nice)
Sahlab / سحلب. It's like liquid pudding. Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret:
quote:Originally posted by Life is a journey:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: They love us enough to grope us and masterbate on the street in front of us! And they call us immoral.
OMG !
1 outside the Metro 1pm in the afternoon while I was with my Mum and a young girl from Palestine, once outside my apartment.. and I sawa dude in Spinneys by the fish counter having a fiddle in his galabeya!!!
I have seen young girls in clubs so drunk they are vomiting on themselves too... which is why I like to hear how they view us western girls when I get to witness this
do u think the guy in the galabeya cld have just been adjusting his bits nd pieces;) pmsl thank goodness he werent in fresh food sec
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: this vanilla/potato starch milk drink (what is that? it was really nice)
Sahlab / سحلب. It's like liquid pudding.
It's lush - love it - especially in cold weather You can buy bags of the powder in the shop to make up but being me, I nibble all the nuts and bits that are supposed to go on the top in one go.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I've got an old friend here [and I MEAN old!] nice old guy, bit old school, and if I run into him in the supermarket he tries to buy my groceries for God's sake.
Is it an Egyptian hospitality thing then or "me man, you woman" or a bit of both?
I don't get it.
Nothing anti American or wot not Metinoot. When my parents go out to get groceries or stuff for the house or out for a meal or whatever, my dad always pays at the counter. But if my mum fancies a new frock or new shoes or what have you and he always paid for those too then why would my mum ever need money? Why would she need a purse? That's a scary thought to me.
I can get my head around footing the bill for food, drink, the odd this or that for visitors, but, I don't know, shoes and what not, that would be beyond embarrassing for me.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I've got an old friend here [and I MEAN old!] nice old guy, bit old school, and if I run into him in the supermarket he tries to buy my groceries for God's sake.
Is it an Egyptian hospitality thing then or "me man, you woman" or a bit of both?
I don't get it.
Nothing anti American or wot not Metinoot. When my parents go out to get groceries or stuff for the house or out for a meal or whatever, my dad always pays at the counter. But if my mum fancies a new frock or new shoes or what have you and he always paid for those too then why would my mum ever need money? Why would she need a purse? That's a scary thought to me.
I can get my head around footing the bill for food, drink, the odd this or that for visitors, but, I don't know, shoes and what not, that would be beyond embarrassing for me.
Again how your parents do things in the UK doesn't reflect how my in-laws manage my vacation as a "guest" or "visitor" in Egypt.
Both your parents are british/english in the UK.
Difference scenerios completely.
And if you can't handle a situation like mine marry a egy-guy who works in tourism, has relatives who need to borrow money all the time.
Save you tons of embarrassment. Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Sahlab. I will have to remember that.
Can I pick your brains? I have laid my hands on a copy of Rosetta Stone Arabic. I got so far with Michele Thomas but he's getting on my wick. Anyway, I've been reading Rosetta Stone is what do you call it? Modern Arabic rather than Egyptian Arabic. Is it a waste of time? I quite like the way they teach it so if it's a no go it would be a shame. Plus Michele Thomas doesn't teach you written Arabic. But no point learning it if it's a no go. What do you think?
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
I live in a country where women are quite frankly considered second class citizens, virtually sold off into marriage by their families in the name of 'security', many are beaten, by fathers, brothers, husbands, they have to ask permission to leave the house, are treated like possessions .... and on and on and on .... And they are complicit in this. And we Westerners are behaving badly??? And btw, it's not anti American to suggest that American women have less of a problem letting others pay for everything, it's true. It's a cultural difference, and I've noticed on here that when there is a discussion about holiday romances, and 'who pays for what' it is invariably Americans who remark 'if he doesn't pay for everything I'd be out of there.' I don't think Europeans think quite the same way, we can buy a guy a coffee without feeling slighted I think. If egyptian guys start feeling insecure about this, well maybe they'd better stay away from foreigners. It's not a criticism, just culture stuff.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ah Metinoot, one minute its the ex paying, next the inlaws. Can't keep up. Quite right though, none of my business. I was just curious.
You are kind of slighting this egy-tourismo-guy based on the assumption that he's a bludger whilst on the other hand bragging about doing that very same thing, but I'm going to let it go Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I live in a country where women are quite frankly considered second class citizens, virtually sold off into marriage by their families in the name of 'security', many are beaten, by fathers, brothers, husbands, they have to ask permission to leave the house, are treated like possessions .... and on and on and on .... And they are complicit in this.
Thats the Egyptians you know, its not the Egyptians I know.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: [QB]And we Westerners are behaving badly???
You selectively have read the posts on this thread.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: [QB]And btw, it's not anti American to suggest that American women have less of a problem letting others pay for everything, it's true. It's a cultural difference, and I've noticed on here that when there is a discussion about holiday romances, and 'who pays for what' it is invariably Americans who remark 'if he doesn't pay for everything I'd be out of there.'
Not only did you start a thread to bash Egyptians but now you've moved onto Americans.
I didn't say my Egyptian ex-husband paid for everything state-side. I stated it was a private matter and I am not going to discuss it.
I always assumed British and European women paid for more because they are more likely to have a child out of wedlock and to live as partners without a legal marriage therefore the woman has to shell out more for the expenses in order to keep him around.
Overwhelmingly most American couples if both partners/spouses are working household expenses are shared 50/50; but women shell out more for children and household extras. Men pay for entertainment, eating out and indulgences.
But then again when Americans get divorced we do have a very great system to collect child support, and therefore fathers have more rights. And more American fathers get custody than European fathers by an extreme margin, in those cases women do pay child support and when they don't they go to jail just like the men!
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: [QB]I don't think Europeans think quite the same way, we can buy a guy a coffee without feeling slighted I think. If egyptian guys start feeling insecure about this, well maybe they'd better stay away from foreigners. It's not a criticism, just culture stuff.
Its a very misguided criticism, and way off. Normally in American soceity whomever asks the other person out pays for the date. After the third date is the custom to either go dutch or take turns paying.
And this is coming from a gal who has done a monsterous amount of dating over the last 4 years. And I live in a neighbhorhood in which 90% are still single.
I've dated European men and normally they want to pay for everything, but are also more likely to move on hard to the "marriage topic". Because its assumed us Ameircan women are more likely to work out marriage troubles than go straight to divorce court.
I also would never live with a guy before marriage, as soon as some Eurotwerp finds this out, its an incentive.
Yet European men find it obligatory to screw around on their wives as well which is a massive turnoff for American women. Hows that for "assumptions"?
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Ah Metinoot, one minute its the ex paying, next the inlaws. Can't keep up. Quite right though, none of my business. I was just curious.
You are kind of slighting this egy-tourismo-guy based on the assumption that he's a bludger whilst on the other hand bragging about doing that very same thing, but I'm going to let it go
Well my ex and in-laws fight over who is paying what.
Yes I am slighting the egy-guy tourism professional, its the only time I've seen foreigners pay for everything and then some.
You can let it go, but you will bring it up.
You fail to recognize that in Egypt you go with their mores and you can do whatever you'd like back in the UK.
Thats the intolerance I was refering to.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
I don't think it's a 'Me Man, You Woman' thing as such, or maybe it is, I think it's a control issue. And we hate to feel 'controlled' don't we? I invited a friend and his family out for a meal, and made it clear beforehand, to him, that I would be paying, they don't have a lot of cash[although I did say I'd give him the money to hand over if that was an issue]and when I asked where they'd like to eat, I was pretty surprised when he said that as I was paying, I had to decide the restaurant. weird. A control thing, i think. They just don't see money in the same way that we do. If I go for a coffee alone, even in my usual hangout, the waiter invariably goes all mimsy when I ask for the bill, bleating on that 'oh no! It's on the house!' or whatever. One day I will just say 'Thanks' and eat it and beat it! I have never been so conscious of being female until I came to Egypt.Which can be exhilarating at times, until I remember what that status is percieved as.[Sorry bad grammar.]
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I don't think it's a 'Me Man, You Woman' thing as such, or maybe it is, I think it's a control issue. And we hate to feel 'controlled' don't we? I invited a friend and his family out for a meal, and made it clear beforehand, to him, that I would be paying, they don't have a lot of cash[although I did say I'd give him the money to hand over if that was an issue]and when I asked where they'd like to eat, I was pretty surprised when he said that as I was paying, I had to decide the restaurant. weird. A control thing, i think. They just don't see money in the same way that we do. If I go for a coffee alone, even in my usual hangout, the waiter invariably goes all mimsy when I ask for the bill, bleating on that 'oh no! It's on the house!' or whatever. One day I will just say 'Thanks' and eat it and beat it! I have never been so conscious of being female until I came to Egypt.Which can be exhilarating at times, until I remember what that status is percieved as.[Sorry bad grammar.]
You assume whomever is paying is also making all the decisions.
asumptions again.
Its not a control issue is a matter of cultural mores.
I know when my grandmother's first cousins from Norway came over on vacation to visit the family then take off on a road trip, they went ahead and booked a hotel room in the same town which 3 of my grandmother's sisters lived.
They were hurt and shocked. Luckily the Norwegan cousins figured out after 2 of the 14 nights they paid for, that it as a major misstep.
So the hotel refunded them 10 nights and the Norwegan cousins stayed at my grandmas home and a few more nights at my grandaunt's homes.
The American cousins (grandma and her sisters) also took turns paying for outings, dinners and would not take money for gas. It was prohibited, and you don't argue with my grandma and her sisters.
The Norweigan cousins paid for their road trip, but again met up with relatives on the road trip, which again the American relatives paid for dinner/outings.
Its not like the American relatives chose the restuarant or outings, but since its our neck of the woods, our hometowns we gave suggestions.
Its not a matter of control its a matter of hospitality.
Now I am being encouraged to take a trip to Norway and I am told even if I do a road trip on a tour bus I am expected to leave several days to spend with relatives. I wouldn't doubt they'd pay.
Oh my goodness you brits are so anal.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I love it when people say "you're anal" as a slur. Rather be known as anally retentive than someone who likes to play with their own poop Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: I love it when people say "you're anal" as a slur. Rather be known as anally retentive than someone who likes to play with their own poop
and you are the one who has to make the second remark not me.
Anal retentive, is inflexible, controlling, intolerant and oblivious to the needs of others. Just saying
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
And anally expulsive includes being disorganised, messy, careless, rebellious, and sometimes cruel.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: And anally expulsive
Not a definition widely used state-side, obviously its a brit thing.
No wonder brits are so into control.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I don't see wanting to be in control and take charge of your own life to be much of an insult. Much better to be in control than be controlled like your ex in laws did to you!!!
I have never heard that term before either... ah crap, I am so not British.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
No it isn't. Just studied Freud for a bit at college. Opposite of anally retentive is anally expulsive. Know what I'd rather be - that's all I'm saying.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I don't see wanting to be in control and take charge of your own life to be much of an insult. Much better to be in control than be controlled like your ex in laws did to you!!!
So let me understand, the only way to be not under the control of your Egyptian in-laws is to pay for everything and not stay in their home.
Okaaaayyy, explains why Brit money goes into Egypt and doesn't go out of Egypt.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
You assume whomever is paying is also making all the decisions. No, you misunderstood that.
It is neither a thread about knocking Egyptians, nor is it about you, sorry. Please stop this 'I only know posh people' stuff. Don't embarrass yourself.Most of us don't check out our friend's pedigrees. You haven't lived here have you? A few trips visiting inlaws doesn't give you the full picture I'm afraid.If you live in a place you meet hundreds of people every day, just about all of them pretty friendly, proactively so, I'd say. What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party. I certainly see people greeting friends here effusively, then moaning about them when they leave.And so much of Egyptian life is involved with manners, the right form of address, courtesies and so on, and how much is real? How much is just formalities? I don't ever judge how much someone likes me by how much they spend on me. Crikey. No I am not trying to pick a fight with you Metinoot, people here rarely are.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No it isn't. Just studied Freud for a bit at college. Opposite of anally retentive is anally expulsive. Know what I'd rather be - that's all I'm saying.
Phew... I was more of a Jung girl myself Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I don't see wanting to be in control and take charge of your own life to be much of an insult. Much better to be in control than be controlled like your ex in laws did to you!!!
So let me understand, the only way to be not under the control of your Egyptian in-laws is to pay for everything and not stay in their home.
Okaaaayyy, explains why Brit money goes into Egypt and doesn't go out of Egypt.
How does your in laws not letting you go out alone as they probably heard about your loose morals explain British financial economics???
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: You assume whomever is paying is also making all the decisions. No, you misunderstood that.
It is neither a thread about knocking Egyptians, nor is it about you, sorry. Please stop this 'I only know posh people' stuff. Don't embarrass yourself.Most of us don't check out our friend's pedigrees. You haven't lived here have you? A few trips visiting inlaws doesn't give you the full picture I'm afraid.If you live in a place you meet hundreds of people every day, just about all of them pretty friendly, proactively so, I'd say. What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party. I certainly see people greeting friends here effusively, then moaning about them when they leave.And so much of Egyptian life is involved with manners, the right form of address, courtesies and so on, and how much is real? How much is just formalities? I don't ever judge how much someone likes me by how much they spend on me. Crikey. No I am not trying to pick a fight with you Metinoot, people here rarely are.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I don't think it's a 'Me Man, You Woman' thing as such, or maybe it is, I think it's a control issue. And we hate to feel 'controlled' don't we? I invited a friend and his family out for a meal, and made it clear beforehand, to him, that I would be paying, they don't have a lot of cash[although I did say I'd give him the money to hand over if that was an issue]and when I asked where they'd like to eat, I was pretty surprised when he said that as I was paying, I had to decide the restaurant. weird. A control thing, i think. They just don't see money in the same way that we do. If I go for a coffee alone, even in my usual hangout, the waiter invariably goes all mimsy when I ask for the bill, bleating on that 'oh no! It's on the house!' or whatever. One day I will just say 'Thanks' and eat it and beat it! I have never been so conscious of being female until I came to Egypt.Which can be exhilarating at times, until I remember what that status is percieved as.[Sorry bad grammar.]
Your exact words.
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Most of us don't check out our friend's pedigrees.
But its very common for Egyptians to introduce themselves with references to family, social rank and profession.
thats if they speak English.
quote:You haven't lived here have you? A few trips visiting inlaws doesn't give you the full picture I'm afraid.
Neither does marrying a egyptian gigilo.
You are in a similar situation to that of Laura, as you claim, but Laura's hubby is still alive. Yet Laura doesn't grip about the same "control" issues or "gigiloism" as you do.
quote:I don't ever judge how much someone likes me by how much they spend on me.
and you assume thats how I judge my in-laws. Actually that doesn't even enter my mind. There are other factors that mean much more to me. But I won't discuss those factors here, because I'd rather not bad-mouth or even give detailed praises of my in-laws.
quote:No I am not trying to pick a fight with you Metinoot, people here rarely are.
Actually I find regular ES posters especially brits have this "my way or the highway" attitude.
If you disagree with them, they find it a slight against them.
Rarely does a discussion come down to "we agree to disagree".
Other American women have had my similar experiences to mine, but they don't post often.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Hey I only read it because I had to And the whole "imprinting" thing with baby ducks following a match box around thinking it was their mum.
Damn cruel to animals that psychology lot.
If I'd wanted to take it further I had to find an under 4 to study. I found this a little creepy myself.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: How does your in laws not letting you go out alone as they probably heard about your loose morals explain British financial economics???
Actually I have stated I go out alone on occassion.
They haven't heard about loose morals because I don't behave in that manner in Egypt.
And they don't really discuss tourists at all.
But if I go out for an alcoholic beverage it will be in the USA with a friend, not Egypt.
if I go to a pharmacy to buy anything they go with to make sure I am not buying the wrong product. It helps when there is a pharmacist in the family. And he doesn't off load pain-killers on me because I don't take them.
Then again I don't hang out with men who I am not related to unless I have a family member present. Its not that big of a deal.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Oh golly. I now have a fantasy Egyptian gigolo husband. A dead one too.
BTW Monkey, did you read the one about the poor baby monkey that was given a wire 'mother' which gave milk, and a 'cuddly mother' which didn't.Soooo sad, poor thing nearly starved.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I don't behave in that manner in Egypt pmsfl!!!
Wrong product pmsfl...
Seriously, you do make me laugh when you say things like this.
A pharmacist in the family pmsfl... there is at least one in every family here, they are as common as cat crap!!!
I am now convinced your EX in'laws just thought you were Special Needs!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Not read it all yet but what I have I'm seeing sono the mushroom big time.
Posted by Shanta Gdeeda (Member # 9889) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E:
What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party. I certainly see people greeting friends here effusively, then moaning about them when they leave.And so much of Egyptian life is involved with manners, the right form of address, courtesies and so on, and how much is real? How much is just formalities?
Well was also discussing this a couple of days ago with a female 'foreigner' friend.
We were talking about how if you meet a new Egyptian female friend, even if she is married with children, she will seem to want to take over your whole life, be your only friend want to see you or phone you every day, and smother you with 'I miss you' and 'I love you'. It is then entirely normal for her to make an arrangement with you, drop you like a hot potato because something came up and not call you to say she's not coming and then not contact you for 2 weeks or so to even apologize or explain!
I do also recall a few years ago misunderstanding a male's intentions when he kept saying "I miss you" and a discreet word with a friend of his revealed that it just does NOT mean the same as it does in normal British English where a guy telling a gal he misses her implies a level of romantic interest. His friend explained that in Egypt it is something they are taught to say as it is considered a politeness (which was a relief to me!)
So anyway, you have to kind of dilute the slush quite a lot to reach the true intention. The problem IS, the kind of gushy sentimentalness that is just a normal average everyday level here can make a Brit feel very guilty about having to say 'I'm sorry I can't meet you I'm busy' or whatever because of what is interpreted as depth as feeling from the choice of words.
I don't know how it comes across to Americans though because on the whole Americans seem to be a lot more sentimental than Brits - like when all American tv series have that slushy 'I love you mom, I love you son' bit in them - we Northern Europeans are a hard lot LOL
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: How does your in laws not letting you go out alone as they probably heard about your loose morals explain British financial economics???
They haven't heard about loose morals because I don't behave in that manner in Egypt.
The flap pics would have been a rare treat then Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ouch ouch, Ayisha that made my sides hurt Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Oh golly. I now have a fantasy Egyptian gigolo husband. A dead one too.
BTW Monkey, did you read the one about the poor baby monkey that was given a wire 'mother' which gave milk, and a 'cuddly mother' which didn't.Soooo sad, poor thing nearly starved.
No I didn't see that one. I saw the one where they kept a cat shut in the dark only to discover that you go blind if you're starved of light. No $hit. Ever seen a mole? Sorry, can't be doing with all that. To save lives is one thing but just for the hell of it is cruel. Beyond cruel. Rotten.
I'm not the most observant person in the world, but the Egyptian husband bit threw me too.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Oh hell yeah, framed in some gawdy gold frame and have pride of place over the TV in the living room next to Uncle Mo's family portrait Posted by Life is a journey (Member # 17655) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I live in a country where women are quite frankly considered second class citizens, virtually sold off into marriage by their families in the name of 'security', many are beaten, by fathers, brothers, husbands, they have to ask permission to leave the house, are treated like possessions .... and on and on and on .... And they are complicit in this. And we Westerners are behaving badly??? And btw, it's not anti American to suggest that American women have less of a problem letting others pay for everything, it's true. It's a cultural difference, and I've noticed on here that when there is a discussion about holiday romances, and 'who pays for what' it is invariably Americans who remark 'if he doesn't pay for everything I'd be out of there.' I don't think Europeans think quite the same way, we can buy a guy a coffee without feeling slighted I think. If egyptian guys start feeling insecure about this, well maybe they'd better stay away from foreigners. It's not a criticism, just culture stuff.
Ignorance on both parts In regards to 1st paragraph - I was in Egypt a few years ago and the women upstairs was being beaten to a pulp Everyone that heard it knew wat was happening. I begged the ppl i was with to intervene or at least call the police, only to be told the police wont do anything its a domestic issue It just appears that domestic abuse is tolerated in egypt Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Actually I have found that many people here really despise men who beat their wives. But paradoxically, probably, [I'm 'assuming here, NB Metinoot]due to a kind of nationalistic embarrassment, they have tended to make light of this issue when I mention it. I saw a man beating his teenaged daughter in the street not too long ago, dragged her along the ground by her hair. Luckily just about every man in the vicinity pounced on him, but strangely, I felt that it was doing it publicly that was what was haram.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I live in a country where women are quite frankly considered second class citizens, virtually sold off into marriage by their families in the name of 'security', many are beaten, by fathers, brothers, husbands, they have to ask permission to leave the house, are treated like possessions .... and on and on and on .... And they are complicit in this. And we Westerners are behaving badly??? And btw, it's not anti American to suggest that American women have less of a problem letting others pay for everything, it's true. It's a cultural difference, and I've noticed on here that when there is a discussion about holiday romances, and 'who pays for what' it is invariably Americans who remark 'if he doesn't pay for everything I'd be out of there.' I don't think Europeans think quite the same way, we can buy a guy a coffee without feeling slighted I think. If egyptian guys start feeling insecure about this, well maybe they'd better stay away from foreigners. It's not a criticism, just culture stuff.
Are you talking about Egypt or UK?
Facts:
Statistics: Domestic Violence
Incidence and prevalence of domestic violence: General
• Domestic violence accounts for between 16% and one quarter of all recorded violent crime. (Home Office, 2004; Dodd et al., 2004; BCS, 1998; Dobash and Dobash, 1980)
• One incident is reported to the police every minute. (Stanko, 2000)
• 45% women and 26% men had experienced at least one incident of inter-personal violence in their lifetimes. (Walby and Allen, 2004) ) – however when there were more than 4 incidents (i.e. ongoing domestic or sexual abuse) 89% of victims were women.
• In any one year, there are 13 million separate incidents of physical violence or threats of violence against women from partners or former partners. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
• Women are much more likely than men to be the victim of multiple incidents of abuse, and of sexual violence: 32% of women who had ever experienced domestic violence did so four or five (or more) times, compared with 11% of the (smaller number) of men who had ever experienced domestic violence; and women constituted 89% of all those who had experienced 4 or more incidents of domestic violence. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
• Women are more likely than men to have experienced all types of intimate violence (partner abuse, family abuse, sexual assault and stalking) since the ages of 16. And nearly half the woman who had experienced intimate violence of any kind, were likely to have been victims of more than one kind of intimate abuse. (Coleman et al., 2007)
• 54% of UK rapes are committed by a woman’s current or former partner. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
• On average 2 women a week are killed by a male partner or former partner: this constitutes around one-third of all female homicide victims. (Povey, (ed.), 2004, 2005; Home Office, 1999; Department of Health, 2005.)
I just had to look at the statistics again. I never knew the UK was so violent for women. Is it correct that nearly half of all UK women have been physically abused at least once in their lifetime?
Is it a cultural thing? Where does all this hate and violence come from?
I think Egypt is safer than the UK if the statistics above are correct. There's no excuse for domestic abuse, but what's interesting is I thought the UK was civilized in this regard. I honestly did not know such a huge number of women are abused.
UK men are just as barbaric as the Egyptian men who beat their women. Perhaps they should be taught to respect women from an early age. I don't know don't specialize in this kind of conduct. I'm still in shock at the stats I just read.
Making matters worse:
Around 21% of girls and 11% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse. 23% of women and 3% of men experience sexual assault as an adult. 5% of women and 0.4% of men experience rape. (Cross Government Action Plan on Sexual Violence and Abuse
* Is this a civilized society? Where so many children and adults are sexually abused. We're talking about millions based on those percentages.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Egypt is much safer than UK Exiiled, in lots of ways, must be all that bacon they eat
There are umpteen women's refuges in UK for abused women, the difference is the help for them is there in UK, it's not in Egypt and seeking help is not encouraged in Egypt. It's also not really that long ago that UK police wouldn't come out for domestic violence either, they wouldn't intervene if a man was beating crap out of his wife.
Social Services are up to the hilt with dealing with abused and neglected kids too, although sadly some do slip through the net and we see on the news they have been killed.
I think one huge difference between UK and Egypt in your statistics is that UK has statistics of these kinds of things and Egypt doesn't, or not up to date as most crimes like this are not even reported.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: Okaaaayyy, explains why Brit money goes into Egypt and doesn't go out of Egypt.
I know it wasn't meant as a compliment but I would take that as one, a big one. Yes Brit money goes into our host country rather than sponging off it.
One thing I do know very well about Egyptian hospitality is that they will do all they can to make a guest happy, even if they are sharing all the food they have for a month with you in one meal or borrowing money to live and feed you, and you wont have a clue about it.
I am fortunate enough to live in a poorer area and know much poorer people than your NDP relatives and I don't know any Brit that would say with pride the things you have said here about you paying nothing towards your trip, including your air fare and personal shopping, I would be ashamed, only people like that I know are the low life scroungers that could peel an orange in their pockets back home. I suppose though when the in laws have made so much money by stealing from their own people it's normal for that money to be going out of Egypt in any way it can.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
You are right Ayisha about DV stats; there is just so much here that goes undreported and therefore undocumented.
In the UK DV can be broken down into physical and mental abuse, if those kind of stats were available and up to date here I think folk would be as equally shocked.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I think one huge difference between UK and Egypt in your statistics is that UK has statistics of these kinds of things and Egypt doesn't, or not up to date as most crimes like this are not even reported.
I know of at least one study, but it's more than ten years old and I'm not sure how reliable it is.
Woman Battering
The dominance of men over women is accepted to varying degrees among Egyptians of both genders. For example, the 1995 Egyptian Demographic and Health Survey found that a significant number of women, especially among lower and middle income women and those residing in rural areas, believed that wife beating was justified under certain circumstances.
Another study - carried out between January and March 1997 on a sample of 100 women aged between 14 and 65 years old (married or having been married) from Manshier Nasser, an informal settlement located ten minutes from the city of Cairo - reveals that 30% of the women questioned admitted to being subjected to domestic violence on a daily basis, 34% on a weekly basis, 15% on a monthly basis and 21% occasionally.
For 75% of these women, the main reason for this domestic violence was found to be sexual. Women are beaten, raped or abused for having refused to have sex with their husbands. Other reasons cited were spending (65%), visiting (32%), housework (25%), religion (8%), jealousy (6%) and disobedience (5%).
Sixteen percent of the women suffered injuries necessitating hospitalisation, such as broken arms, broken ribs, internal bleeding and wounds in the head or the arms requiring stitches, while 9% of them attempted to commit suicide.
Following this violence, most of them (53%) suffered in silence; 13% went to the police, although all of them subsequently withdrew the charges, the objective being only “to teach the husband a lesson”, not really wanting to cause him any harm.
Only 6% of these women demanded a divorce. Of the remainder, 26% called their neighbours; 25% tried to leave their homes at least once; 23% got help from family members (either their own or their spouse’s), while 15% responded to the violence. The fact that 87% of these women did not mention the violence to the police is due to embarrassment (65%), for the children’s sake (32%), fears for their husband (19%), fear of their husband (13%), and fear of their own families (7%).25 Four percent felt that it was a waste of time, while 11% cited other reasons.
The researcher specified that although this study is not representative of Egyptian society as a whole, she feels that “the instances of violence even among different social classes within Egyptian society is widespread.” ( … )
Marital Rape
In Egypt, a husband who forces his wife to have sexual intercourse is not considered by the law to have committed a criminal offence, “because the woman is legally obliged due to the marriage contract to obey her husband and to follow him to his bed each time he asks her, and she can only refuse for a legally valid reason.”
A study conducted by the New Women Research Centre and El-Nadim Centre has found that 93% of the women in the sample considered intercourse under such conditions as rape. However, 46% of the men in the sample said that they were entitled to force their wives to have intercourse.
Would like to point out that, yes, abusive men are worldwide but, I imagine, it is a damned site easier for a woman in the UK to walk out on all that when she gets in the right mindset than it would be for an Egyptian wife who is utterly reliant. This is how I look at it - these woman beaters have, lets say, four relationships and are abusive in each one, that's four women that count as a statistic. Whereas if you've got four women who are married for life who have been battered, that means you have not just one bad egg, but four.
Meh, makes sense to me.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Around 21% of girls and 11% of boys experience some form of child sexual abuse. 23% of women and 3% of men experience sexual assault as an adult. 5% of women and 0.4% of men experience rape.
Define sexual abuse? It doesn't. It doesn't say around 21% of girls have experienced sexual abuse by an adult, it says some form. Even though, I'm sorry, I don't buy that figure for a second. This would be way more believable for me:
but even though it's still "some form" - not well defined at all. As Mo stated earlier in this post, she thought someone had copped a feel on a bus then later realised there was no conceivable way they could have. Does this constitute sexual abuse?
I object to the 'civilised society' bit Exiiled. Kinda offensive.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
RE: Stats
Hopefully with Egypt's transition from a dictatorship to democracy we will see accurate stats. There is an Arab country precedent in terms of recording stats and enacting a domestic abuse law. However I truly believe that Egypt is no where near the UK in terms of violence against women and children. Given the shocking numbers UK police attest that the reports are but a fragment of actual domestic violence incidents. I read that the UK was “The Violent Capital of Europe” and even more violent than the US per capita. (1) We can hypothesize, but my opinion is that Egyptians are much more civilized than many western nations when it comes to dealing with women and children. UK to Egypt comparison is given as the UK is clearly plagued with domestic and child abuse. Sure there are laws to protect women and refugee centers, counseling, etc but it doesn't dismiss the fact that UK society has some serious issues with domestic violence against women, and children abuse.
1.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Exiiled: [qb] I object to the 'civilised society' bit Exiiled. Kinda offensive.
Try not to take it personally. Doing so would hinder dialogue. My point is very simple, Egypt as bad as it is, is much better in the "civizlized" department than most other countries, including the UK.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Actually, it wasn't me said I got groped on the bus [Shanta?] just for metinoot's records. I did have a vile experience last summer, with a taxi driver! I was astonished by my response. I'd always assumed my famed rapier wit would take over and wither the offender etc. Or worst case scenario I'd be frozen with terror. But amazingly for me, [I am capable of sphinx like calm usually] I felt a real murderous rage, I think I could have killed the guy if I'd had a weapon. Just beat him around his stoopid head in the end.More shocked by myself than that twerp. But many years ago I've been physically hurt by a man, so maybe that violence was just lurking there from that time.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
And this was due to a lack of referrals, meaning it wasn't being used enough, meaning there was actually excess support out there for those who sought it.
The charities aren't going to report glowing affirmations that everythings hunky dory, are they? Would you donate to Red Cross if they told you "nope - everythings fine today"?
It does go on and there is support out there. The problem is some women just won't leave, but once they're brave enough, it's there. The council spend £500,000 a year in my area alone. Then there are numourous charities too.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Actually, it wasn't me said I got groped on the bus [Shanta?]
ooh sorry, my mistake
Exiiled, I do take it a little personally, I guess This is my home country and my peeps. We're not nearly the bunch of heathens a lot of Egyptians have us pegged as and you're doing nothing to help the PR campaign. Yeah, you have the drunks stumbling out of the bars and vomitting in some spots, but that aint universal. I've run out of petrol (numerous times ) and never made it to the garage on foot without a stranger helping me out. And there were no puppies or sweeties involved Really, we ain't all bad.
But again, I live in the sticks.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Inevitably in a country such as Egypt, where violence toward women is acknowledged, if not condoned by everyone, it will be years and years before the real stats are known. And would be hairaising I bet. I've seen women beaten in the streets, in nice cars, and have listened to discussions about the religious rules regarding 'chastising one's wife'.Cute. You don't have to live in Cairo to be in denial. None of these women are going to talk outside a hospital, divorce court, or their father's house. Shocking statistics in Western countries, [Exiiled, glad to know it doesn't happen in the USA] but years of probing research goes into these stats, European women are no longer ashamed to admit to having been victims. I agree that in many ways, Egypt is much safer than most western countries, certainly in terms of street crime etc, but as a woman I would feel vulnerable in a society that doesn't respect women enough to offer protection or redress in their own homes.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I'd always thought alcohol tended to be a big factor with many wife beaters but this does make you think. Maybe it's just used as an excuse??
Probably more about self-esteem and the alcholism is just a symptom of the problem.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Alcohol, [like a social climate that tacitly condones this stuff,] is a disinhibitor.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Actually, it wasn't me said I got groped on the bus [Shanta?]
ooh sorry, my mistake
Exiiled, I do take it a little personally, I guess This is my home country and my peeps. We're not nearly the bunch of heathens a lot of Egyptians have us pegged as and you're doing nothing to help the PR campaign. Yeah, you have the drunks stumbling out of the bars and vomitting in some spots, but that aint universal. I've run out of petrol (numerous times ) and never made it to the garage on foot without a stranger helping me out. And there were no puppies or sweeties involved Really, we ain't all bad.
But again, I live in the sticks.
I blame the Pakis, Niggas, Sand Niggers, Eastern European Hos, Russian Mafia, the Sikhs and Indians for ruining the UK!
Was really shocked by the UK stats. Like really shocked and began to think what could be the reason for the upsurge in violence in the UK. The UK people I meet couldn't be happier to leave the UK, these are mostly dudes, they complain about everything from British women to the goverment. The comment about Pakis, etc, that's they're line too, as they basically say leave it (UK) to them – I'm assuming the Pakis, British women and government. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Alcohol is used as an excuse, there is DV and sexual harrassment and abuse daily in Egypt and I do recall someone once telling ES folk that no Egyptian in Egypt drinks
Whatever the reason (of which I know there are many), I hope that Egypt begins to help vulnerable and at risk people. Men as well as women...
I like living outside of the UK as I don't feel like Big Brother is up my ass daily anymore
I have had things stolen in Egypt like I have in the UK and I have had people tossing off in front of me here like I have in the UK. If this is a competition to see which country is better than the other in terms of theft and sexual botherings on the street then I see it to be a futile debate!
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
One in every four women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime. (Tjaden, Patricia & Thoennes, Nancy. National Institute of Justice and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, “Extent, Nature and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey,
One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States. (Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1991
get off your high horse Exiiled.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: One in every four women will experience domestic violence in her lifetime. (Tjaden, Patricia & Thoennes, Nancy. National Institute of Justice and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, “Extent, Nature and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey,
One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States. (Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1991
get off your high horse Exiiled.
Hey I'm not on a horse at all. I'm down to earth walking about in my ship-ship. Egypt is safer than the US too, and probably safer for women anc children the most western nations.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E:
One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States.
wow you would have thought she'd have left him by now but every 15 secs I don't suppose she's had chance to run really Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
One woman is beaten by her husband or partner every 15 seconds in the United States.
wow you would have thought she'd have left him by now but every 15 secs I don't suppose she's had chance to run really
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Actually, it wasn't me said I got groped on the bus [Shanta?]
ooh sorry, my mistake
Exiiled, I do take it a little personally, I guess This is my home country and my peeps. We're not nearly the bunch of heathens a lot of Egyptians have us pegged as and you're doing nothing to help the PR campaign. Yeah, you have the drunks stumbling out of the bars and vomitting in some spots, but that aint universal. I've run out of petrol (numerous times ) and never made it to the garage on foot without a stranger helping me out. And there were no puppies or sweeties involved Really, we ain't all bad.
But again, I live in the sticks.
I blame the Pakis, Niggas, Sand Niggers, Eastern European Hos, Russian Mafia, the Sikhs and Indians for ruining the UK!
That'll make you a Daily Mail reader then
Plenty of immigrants in the sticks. Quite funny because they were talking about the most traditional English village in the UK - chocolate box houses and all that - and *gasp* there were plenty of immigrants, not to mention Brits by birth who happened to be *shock horror* people of colour. There is a show here which is supposed to be set in this village and in it everyone is white. The writers tried to claim it was because they wanted to keep the show quintessentially English. Quintessentially for the Daily Mail readers, more like.
Posted by something else (Member # 10544) on :
Can I put in my two cents here?
I think these statistics about domestic violence in the UK can't just be taken at face value, in fact I'd go so far as to say that while I know that violence against women happens everywhere, in the UK may be over documented, whereas in Egypt it's the opposite.
For example....once when my husband and I hadn't been married for long we were having an argument and he gave me a shove (and he is the least violent man you could ever meet, but on that one and only occasion he lost his temper). Nobody was hurt but the fact is that he raised his hand to me in anger and therefore technically I have been a victim of domestic violence and in a survey I'd be another statistic.
Also, years ago walking along the road a young guy passed me, put out his hand and touched my boobs. I was so shocked I just kept walking but again, technically I have also been sexually assaulted in the street. It had never happened before and has never happened again, but it happened once and that's another statistic.
So I wouldn't put TOO much store on the statistics, Exiled.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by something else: Can I put in my two cents here?
I think these statistics about domestic violence in the UK can't just be taken at face value, in fact I'd go so far as to say that while I know that violence against women happens everywhere, in the UK may be over documented, whereas in Egypt it's the opposite.
For example....once when my husband and I hadn't been married for long we were having an argument and he gave me a shove (and he is the least violent man you could ever meet, but on that one and only occasion he lost his temper). Nobody was hurt but the fact is that he raised his hand to me in anger and therefore technically I have been a victim of domestic violence and in a survey I'd be another statistic.
Also, years ago walking along the road a young guy passed me, put out his hand and touched my boobs. I was so shocked I just kept walking but again, technically I have also been sexually assaulted in the street. It had never happened before and has never happened again, but it happened once and that's another statistic.
So I wouldn't put TOO much store on the statistics, Exiled.
Statisticians, and professionals who design, data sample, and compile these studies are using the very same methods and science of other statisticians in other nations.
While the UK has an alarming rate of violence, the very same methodology of statistical surveys are used in other western nations with different results.
You can compare cities too. My city has one of the lowest violent crime rates, but it surges in gun homicides. Compare those statistics to other cities and it shows Minneapolis vs. Chicago women are more likely to die from a gun wound than any other form of violence than in Chicago. Why because Minneapolis as a disproportionate amount of female gangs and gang-bangers than Chicago.
You Brits complain endlessly about crime, and assaults why would domestic violence be an exception?
Posted by something else (Member # 10544) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot: [QUOTE]Statisticians, and professionals who design, data sample, and compile these studies are using the very same methods and science of other statisticians in other nations.
I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I'm not questioning the methods used in the gathering of data, I'm questioning the interpretation of the questions by the individuals taking part in the survey which may vary from country to country.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by something else: Can I put in my two cents here?
I think these statistics about domestic violence in the UK can't just be taken at face value, in fact I'd go so far as to say that while I know that violence against women happens everywhere, in the UK may be over documented, whereas in Egypt it's the opposite.
For example....once when my husband and I hadn't been married for long we were having an argument and he gave me a shove (and he is the least violent man you could ever meet, but on that one and only occasion he lost his temper). Nobody was hurt but the fact is that he raised his hand to me in anger and therefore technically I have been a victim of domestic violence and in a survey I'd be another statistic.
Also, years ago walking along the road a young guy passed me, put out his hand and touched my boobs. I was so shocked I just kept walking but again, technically I have also been sexually assaulted in the street. It had never happened before and has never happened again, but it happened once and that's another statistic.
So I wouldn't put TOO much store on the statistics, Exiled.
Statistics afford us the opportunity to objectively scrutinize an issue, in this case society. I personally take comfort in numbers, they help stripe subjective notions, such as Brits are this or that, Egyptians are this or that sans proof. Let's stack the numbers and take it from there. The stats I quoted are very unsettling, and people may choose to down play them, BUT the fact is that most domestic violence incidents are unreported. Do you understand what I'm getting at? True some incidents may not be as violent, but given the fact that most violent incidents are unreported, the actual “truth” may very well be uglier than the present stats indicate. I'm not on any high horse, I'm helping some members here get off their high horses. There is a very ugly aspect of the West that transgresses against women and children up and beyond Egyptian transgressions, and it's best that the double standards cease. When people wag their fingers at Egyptian society, I'll kindly post the stats of “civilized” societies. There's no utopia, begin with your own children and male relatives, teach them to respect women, because all the resources, hotlines and refugee centers in the UK don't seem to curtail the violence against women.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Let's just hope that the Egyptian Government can follow the lead then and actually begin to collate accurate data. Pretending a problem doesn't exist doesn't make it any less real.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
The stats I quoted were based on investigated crime, compiled by law enforcement agencies; not simply Q&A surveys. Many of these DV surveys are just anecdotal stuff, but you're both right. Statistics can be used to prove anything. Anyway, the point I was originally trying to make was that there is a cultural bias against the rights of women in Egypt, which will inevitably do little to deter domestic violence. On the plus side, you rarely hear of 'drag'em in the bushes' type sex assaults. My city has one of the lowest violent crime rates, but it surges in gun homicides. Sorry, but that really made me laugh. Folks just don't mess around in your state do they? Skip the hairpulling, name calling, catfights etc. Just Bang!!! Posted by something else (Member # 10544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: • In any one year, there are 13 million separate incidents of physical violence or threats of violence against women from partners or former partners. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
Just out of interest, Exiiled....do you take this quote that you bolded as 13 million separate women, or 13 million incidents? like maybe, 1 million women reporting violence 13 times in a year?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Let's just hope that the Egyptian Government can follow the lead then and actually begin to collate accurate data. Pretending a problem doesn't exist doesn't make it any less real.
Me too. I can't stress enough my appreciation of statistics. They are a measure of transparency. Why you think I love baseball so much?! It's truly a game of statistics, and sabermetrics is the science of baseball stats. In football (Fifa) there are countless debates about who is the best footballer of all time e.g. Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Paltini, etc. Even today the comparision between Messi or whatever his name is from Barcelona. Baseball just look at the stats, and I'm not talking about basic stats but deeper stats and you'll objectively reach a conclusion at who is the best at a position.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by something else:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: • In any one year, there are 13 million separate incidents of physical violence or threats of violence against women from partners or former partners. (Walby and Allen, 2004)
Just out of interest, Exiiled....do you take this quote that you bolded as 13 million separate women, or 13 million incidents? like maybe, 1 million women reporting violence 13 times in a year?
You're kidding right? It's straightforward enough. Your 1 million is a guess, it could very well be 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, etc million. It could also be 26 million incidents if all were reported. Keep in mind a large number of domestic violence incidents are not reported according to UK police.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"1 million women reporting violence 13 times in a year?"
Once all facts are released I'd agree... However, we all know that the truth about abuse and DV in Egypt are hidden. No point even discussing this further tbh... When a few heads come out of the sand maybe then we could talk about facts.
Like I said, some folk believe there are no gays, alcohol or drugs in Egypt... What about world folk in rose tinted glasses have!!!
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Once all facts are released I'd agree... However, we all know that the truth about abuse and DV in Egypt are hidden. No point even discussing this further tbh... When a few heads come out of the sand maybe then we could talk about facts.
Like I said, some folk believe there are no gays, alcohol or drugs in Egypt... What about world folk in rose tinted glasses have!!!
I get your point. Volkswagen just proved it to a T. Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Muslims are over-represented in UK prisons for violence against women. In Bradford, England, Channel 4 pulled a documentary about Pakistani and other Muslim men sexually abusing white English girls, some as young as 11:
Same in France: "70 percent of French prisoners are Muslims
French prisons are teeming with Muslims, a phenomenon chaplains and sociologists blame on marginalization and towering poverty and unemployment rates among the Muslim minority. “It really harms the image of Islam and Muslims in France that prisons are teeming with Muslims,” Mamdo Sango, a Muslim chaplain, told IslamOnline.net. Iranian-French researcher Farhad Khosrokhavar said in his recently published book Islam in Prisons that Muslims make up some 70 percent of a total of 60,775 prisoners in France."
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
UK Islam Channel slammed for advocating domestic violence By JONNY PAUL 11/11/2010 08:17
The pro-Islamist satellite TV channel breached UK Broadcasting Code by advocating marital rape and calling women who wore perfume "prostitutes." Talkbacks (1)
LONDON – British Islamic television channel has been reprimanded by the UK’s media regulator for justifying violence against women, condoning marital rape
Ofcom, the UK’s broadcasting watchdog, ruled this week that the Islam Channel, Britain’s pro-Islamist satellite TV channel, breached the UK Broadcasting Code after presenters on the channel advocated marital rape, justified violence against women and described women who wore perfume as “prostitutes.”
It ruled the channel breached broadcasting standards in five programs between May 2008 and October 2009.
The media regulator’s findings were based on material in a report from counter-extremism think tank the Quilliam Foundation, titled “Re-Programming British Muslims,” which looked at the Islam Channel’s output and published its findings earlier this year.
Posted by something else (Member # 10544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
[/qb]
Me too. I can't stress enough my appreciation of statistics.[/QUOTE] And I can't stress enough my mistrust of statistics
Baseball statistics are an entirely different thing, they are factual and cannot be compared in any way to domestic violence statistics.
13 million separate incidents could be interpreted as 13 million separate women, 1 million women 13 times each, 500,000 women 26 times each, it's open to interpretation.
I'm not getting at you, Exiiled, I think we are coming from the same place i.e. that ANY domestic violence wherever it happens is wrong. But I don't share your belief in statistics as a source of information.
Posted by something else (Member # 10544) on :
Got quote thing wrong Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Muslims are over-represented in UK prisons for violence against women. In Bradford, England, Channel 4 pulled a documentary about Pakistani and other Muslim men sexually abusing white English girls, some as young as 11:
And can you find out how many of them are actual violent offenders against women and children?
You're making the argument that the 11% of Muslims in UK prisons are the reason for UK violence against women and children.
Classic VW Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
What a shame that this topic is mostly about violence towards women now. I actually liked the initial discussion about the original subject very much.
Recap on Racism and The Khawaga Complex
By definition, if you are discriminated against because of your race: that's racism. Does it happen in Egypt? Just read one of the replies to my first post about racism , a reply by a foreigner living in Egypt, and you will get the picture.
What I find striking is the fact that we agree that there is prejudice, yet we disagree on who the Egyptians discriminate against. People from the Far East? Yep. Black? Definitely...
But when it comes to Europeans and 'white' North Americans I beg to differ. Being white IS considered superior in Egypt. The locals here think themselves inferior to the white 'master'. Being blonde can get you a job as a teacher--even if you make spelling mistakes writing in your own native tongue. While a highly qualified African-American college graduate gets repeated rejections!
The 'khawaga complex' (khawaga: is a term slightly similar to 'agnaby .ie. foreigner' but carries a positive connotation, and is usually reserved for whites) is an inferiority complex, no doubt about that. Does that make the Khawaga happy? Definitely not. I am not suggesting that; I understand that no one wants to be labeled, and treated on the basis of their skin color. And this is really the essence of a tolerant, modern society. A society that does not discriminate on the basis of gender, religion, race, or color. But we are a long way from that whether in Egypt, or in the even-less-tolerant Arab world!
While in the past Egyptians were drawn to foreign brands and globalized marketing campaigns, egyptianized branding strategies are increasingly changing consumer perceptions.
marketingpractice@amcham.org.eg BY JOHN M. SAAD Head of Consumer Marketing Vodafone Egypt
For a couple of decades, oqdet al khawaga (the foreigner complex) has been one of the key insights into how Egyptian consumers feel towards brands. Foreign brands are usually perceived to be of higher quality than local brands. Lately, however, there has been a shift in consumer perceptions. Some brands, both local and foreign, prefer a more localized marketing approach to foreign/global positioning....
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: This is mostly true for mankind in general. Egyptians are however one of the most tolerant people, and I've traveled a lot. Much more tolerant than Europeans for example. White people are indeed deemed dirty by many Egyptians. TV/Movies are not culprit, but rather the actions of many white people in Egypt are the reason for this thinking. Egyptians share their experiences. One of my landlords there couldn't stop mentioning the White female foreigner who rented an apartment for $1500 and he kicked her out because she was constantly bringing in men to her apartment at all hours. A friend of mine was shocked after Fffing his Italian girlfriend she simple put on her pants (no washing). Another Italian lady gave the brother of my friend an STD. My maid told me she'll never work for a white man because they live like pigs. Don't forget Luxor, Hurghada, Sharm and the stories that come out of them. There are endless accounts, and again Egyptians spread the news around. Europeans have lived in Egypt for centuries, the bad reputation they're getting wasn't borne by movies.
As for disliking Arabs, well they mainly dislike Saudis, Kuwaitis and Bahrainis. And this is the result of the mistreatment that Egyptian expats receive in those countries. Egyptians like Lebanese, Moroccans, Jordanians, etc
As for Sub-Sahrans. Southern Sudanese prostitutes and Southern Sudanese men who work at a fraction of an Egyptian wage are a reason why Egyptians dislike them. Many ghettos in Cairo, have Sub-Saharan families that live in small slummy apartments with like 20 ppl inside. Egyptians don't harm them but they are deemed as a drain on society. There is also resentment as there are rumors that all of them receive monthly allocations from UNCHR.
Just my 2 cents.
Imagine the reaction of Muslims if a British person wrote:
"The British is one of the most tolerant people. Arab people are indeed deemed dirty by many British. TV/Movies are not culprit, but rather the actions of many Arab people in Britain are the reason for this thinking. Britons share their experiences....
The British like Swedish, Dutch, etc. As for Arabs and other Muslims, the British don't harm them but they are deemed as a drain on society. There is also resentment that many of those people live in expensive council homes all the while preaching hatred against Britain."
They would have been accused of racism, bigotry and God knows what else. Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by something else:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
Me too. I can't stress enough my appreciation of statistics.
I'm not getting at you, Exiiled, I think we are coming from the same place i.e. that ANY domestic violence wherever it happens is wrong. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Don't worry about the quote.
quote: I'm not getting at you, Exiiled,
I believe that, but be forewarned, you may actually like me even if you don't know it.
quote:I think we are coming from the same place i.e. that ANY domestic violence wherever it happens is wrong.
Definitely. We are on the same page and domestic violence is wrong in the UK as it is in Egypt. I merely wanted to emphasize this point to the finger waggers.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
You can compare cities too. My city has one of the lowest violent crime rates, but it surges in gun homicides.
Wouldn't you class gun homicides as violent crime there then? Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: How many UK prisoners are actually Muslim?
11%!
Muslim represent about 2.8% of the population and 11.9% of the prison population. So Muslims are over-represented in UK prisons by a factor of 4.25
In France, almost 70% of the prisons are filled with Muslims although only 12% of the population is Muslim. In the Netherlands and Belgium Muslims also fill their prisons with disproportionate numbers.
Not only are Muslims over-represented in UK prisons, but they are by far the most violent.
The prison staff do not know how to handle Muslim inmates and their presence is "placing a disproportionate and unreasonable burden on prison officers and staff."
“In Britain, 11 percent of prisoners are Muslim in contrast to about 3 percent of all inhabitants, according to the Justice Ministry. Research by the Open Society Institute, an advocacy organization, shows that in the Netherlands 20 percent of adult prisoners and 26 percent of all juvenile offenders are Muslim; the country is about 5.5 percent Muslim. In Belgium, Muslims from Morocco and Turkey make up at least 16 percent of the prison population, compared with 2 percent of the general populace.”
Posted by something else (Member # 10544) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:
I believe that, but be forewarned, you may actually like me even if you don't know it. [/QB]
You think??? Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Muslims are over-represented in UK prisons for violence against women. In Bradford, England, Channel 4 pulled a documentary about Pakistani and other Muslim men sexually abusing white English girls, some as young as 11:
So if you measure that demographic against the 11% statistic, well it's a glowing endorsement for Islam, I'd say
I give up. I don't care whether he's wearing a cloth cap, fez or a ten gallon hat. An a$$hole is still an a$$hole and there's plenty of them, wherever you go. Will say that during one of my stays in Egypt I heard screaming that made your blood kurdle. But that was two women at it so I'm not sure where or whether that slots in.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: How many UK prisoners are actually Muslim?
11%!
Muslim represent about 2.8% of the population and 11.9% of the prison population. So Muslims are over-represented in UK prisons by a factor of 4.25
In France, almost 70% of the prisons are filled with Muslims although only 12% of the population is Muslim. In the Netherlands and Belgium Muslims also fill their prisons with disproportionate numbers.
Not only are Muslims over-represented in UK prisons, but they are by far the most violent.
The prison staff do not know how to handle Muslim inmates and their presence is "placing a disproportionate and unreasonable burden on prison officers and staff."
“In Britain, 11 percent of prisoners are Muslim in contrast to about 3 percent of all inhabitants, according to the Justice Ministry. Research by the Open Society Institute, an advocacy organization, shows that in the Netherlands 20 percent of adult prisoners and 26 percent of all juvenile offenders are Muslim; the country is about 5.5 percent Muslim. In Belgium, Muslims from Morocco and Turkey make up at least 16 percent of the prison population, compared with 2 percent of the general populace.”
You're endlessly exhaustive without a point. What does the Muslim prisoner population of the UK have to do with the domestic violence against women in the UK? Are they the reason? Present some stats.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
In answer to the question Do they really like us? I think it depends on so many things. I have seen Brits in many tourist resorts drinking like there is no tomorrow and making idiots of themselves because it's all inclusive! moaning about the lack of karaoke and British pubs. On more than one occasion in Sharm I was asked where the karaoke bars where Then told the pyramids where OK Then seeing Russian holiday makers clearing the buffet while showing no respect for the staff! You can't blame some hotel workers for having bad impressions based on these experiences. On the other hand when meeting Egyptians through my hubby they seem very pleased to meet someone from the West to learn about my country and tell me about Egypt and enjoy practising their english and listening to my feeble attempt at arabic . There is good and bad from every country whether they're from the West or Egypt, it is about the respect you show each other.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Most Muslim women don’t report domestic violence in their host countries because they feel they will bring shame onto their families and communities.
Muslim women in Islamic countries are not free to report domestic violence and abuse without retribution, so there are no statistics available on the actual reality of domestic violence in Muslim nations.
Even if they were free to report, the stats would not be kept or released to the world at large because it would discredit claims of the utopian Islamic perfection and open a huge can of worms.
Women who are harmed or raped in Muslim nations run the risk of being punished for reporting their attack. They are blamed for the actions of the men who harm them and the protection of men is encoded into the religion by the beliefs of Muhammad that women are subservient to men and have little recourse over any ill treatment they receive.
The difference between UK and Islamic countries, is that in UK they do not cover it or bury it with shame or use threats of violence against the victims of such crimes, doubly victimizing them for reporting as happens in Islamic countries.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Incidence of domestic violence among Muslims
Domestic violence is considered by many to be a problem in Muslim-majority cultures.[24]
The incidence in many Muslim-majority countries (where women hide their bruises and little is ever reported to authorities) is uncertain, but believed to be great by Muslim feminists. In some Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia,[25] reports indicate that domestic violence is quite widespread. One recent study, in Syria, found that 25% of the married women surveyed said that they had been beaten by their husbands.[26]
One study found that half of Palestinian women have been the victims of domestic violence.[27] A WHO study in Babol found that within the previous year 15.0% of wives had been physically abused, 42.4% had been sexually abused and 81.5% had been psychologically abused (to various degrees) by their husbands, blaming low income, young age, unemployment and low education.[28]
A 1987 study conducted by the Women's Division and another study by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in 1996 suggested that domestic violence takes place in approximately 80 percent of the households in the country.[29][30][31] In Pakistan, domestic violence occurs in forms of beatings, sexual violence or torture, mutilation, acid attacks and burning the victim alive (bride burning).[32]
According to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences in 2002, over 90% of married women surveyed in that country reported being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, when the women had ‘failed’ to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy, or had an illicit affair.[33]
The prevalence of domestic violence has been cited as a cause of high rates of suicide, mostly through self-immolation, among Kurdish women in Iran.[34]
Availability of remedies for abused wives
Prosecution for domestic violence
According to Ahmad Shafaat, an Islamic scholar, "If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Qur'an and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her."[35]
However, laws against domestic violence, as well as whether these laws are enforced, vary throughout the Muslim world.
Domestic violence is not explicitly prohibited in Pakistani domestic law[36][37] and most acts of domestic violence are encompassed by the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. Nahida Mahboob Elahi, a human rights lawyer, has said that new laws are needed to better protect women.[38] The police and judges often tend to treat domestic violence as a non-justiciable, private or family matter or, an issue for civil courts, rather than criminal courts.[39] In Pakistan, "police often refuse to register cases unless there are obvious signs of injury and judges sometimes seem to sympathise with the husbands."[40]
Actually 'Khawaga' translates as 'wheatface'. Anyway VW, this was my thread, so keep your anti-muslim witterings to yourself, unless it has some relevance, please. I know, I hate it that the Quran has numerous references to women being inferior to men, but I can only resent that as a woman, not as a Westerner. I have been scolded by a few muslims [women] for being 'haram' simply because I am unmarried and live alone.And I don't drag men back to my place every night! [I'd probably have to drug them first anyway!] Certainly have met veiled [no pun] hostility from friend's wives.
And TL, maybe this daft 'inferiority complex' stuff does cause a little resentment. I'd certainly resent some people if I felt inferior to them. But overall, I think because I actually live here, I have recently started to feel like a 'minority', which was why I raised the subject with a few Egyptian people. [And maybe I needed reassurance, dunno,] but I was a bit shocked to be told , 'yeah, actually you're ok, but generally we don't really like foreigners much'.Hard to get a definitive reason for that apart from a tribal mentality, certainly not a purely religious bias, I don't think.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Incidence of domestic violence among Muslims
Domestic violence is considered by many to be a problem in Muslim-majority cultures.[24]
The incidence in many Muslim-majority countries (where women hide their bruises and little is ever reported to authorities) is uncertain, but believed to be great by Muslim feminists. In some Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia,[25] reports indicate that domestic violence is quite widespread. One recent study, in Syria, found that 25% of the married women surveyed said that they had been beaten by their husbands.[26]
One study found that half of Palestinian women have been the victims of domestic violence.[27] A WHO study in Babol found that within the previous year 15.0% of wives had been physically abused, 42.4% had been sexually abused and 81.5% had been psychologically abused (to various degrees) by their husbands, blaming low income, young age, unemployment and low education.[28]
A 1987 study conducted by the Women's Division and another study by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in 1996 suggested that domestic violence takes place in approximately 80 percent of the households in the country.[29][30][31] In Pakistan, domestic violence occurs in forms of beatings, sexual violence or torture, mutilation, acid attacks and burning the victim alive (bride burning).[32]
According to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences in 2002, over 90% of married women surveyed in that country reported being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, when the women had ‘failed’ to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy, or had an illicit affair.[33]
The prevalence of domestic violence has been cited as a cause of high rates of suicide, mostly through self-immolation, among Kurdish women in Iran.[34]
While you're at it pull out domestic violence in Austrailia, South America, and even Antartica. You sure have a knack for ruining a thread.
Keep it Egypt related, and remember 10% of the population is Christian.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I agree with YAH there is good and bad all over and it is about respect. Respect me I will respect you, disrespect me...
As for 'liking us' they keep giving me Visas Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: The difference between UK and Islamic countries, is that in UK they do not cover it or bury it with shame or use threats of violence against the victims of such crimes, doubly victimizing them for reporting as happens in Islamic countries.
Bullcrap, still much IS covered, still much is not reported due to an inflicted sense of shame and yes there are many victims who are threatened with violence and death for reporting it or even allowing someone to see or hear about it. And I'm not talking about Muslims either. Bucket loads of women still stay in violent relationships because of threats on their life if they leave, it takes a lot for some to feel they can be safe away from it and it can take years of abuse till they find the courage to leave by which time they are so fecked up they take the risk of death as at that point it's a release.
Posted by something else (Member # 10544) on :
quote:Originally posted by young at heart: In answer to the question Do they really like us? I think it depends on so many things. I have seen Brits in many tourist resorts moaning about the lack of karaoke and British pubs. On more than one occasion in Sharm I was asked where the karaoke bars where Then told the pyramids where OK Then seeing Russian holiday makers clearing the buffet while showing no respect for the staff! You can't blame some hotel workers for having bad impressions based on these experiences. On the other hand when meeting Egyptians through my hubby they seem very pleased to meet someone from the West to learn about my country and tell me about Egypt and enjoy practising their english and listening to my feeble attempt at arabic . There is good and bad from every country whether they're from the West or Egypt, it is about the respect you show each other.
You're absolutely right, young at heart. It's like every other social situation, you get what you give if you show respect, if you're not sitting in judgement, if you're open and wanting to learn, you'll get it back 100% But stereotypes are where it all falls down and stereotyping is such a human thing, I think we all do it to some extent. For instance I think it's really hard for Egyptians not to be influenced by western media, and by some western tourists who make a bloody good job of perpetuating the western media stereotypes, it makes me ashamed to be British sometimes. But equally, it's hard for westerners sometimes (especially if they haven't been to a Muslim country) not to be influenced by the media portrayal of Arabs.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by something else:
quote:Originally posted by young at heart: In answer to the question Do they really like us? I think it depends on so many things. I have seen Brits in many tourist resorts moaning about the lack of karaoke and British pubs. On more than one occasion in Sharm I was asked where the karaoke bars where Then told the pyramids where OK Then seeing Russian holiday makers clearing the buffet while showing no respect for the staff! You can't blame some hotel workers for having bad impressions based on these experiences. On the other hand when meeting Egyptians through my hubby they seem very pleased to meet someone from the West to learn about my country and tell me about Egypt and enjoy practising their english and listening to my feeble attempt at arabic . There is good and bad from every country whether they're from the West or Egypt, it is about the respect you show each other.
You're absolutely right, young at heart. It's like every other social situation, you get what you give if you show respect, if you're not sitting in judgement, if you're open and wanting to learn, you'll get it back 100% But stereotypes are where it all falls down and stereotyping is such a human thing, I think we all do it to some extent. For instance I think it's really hard for Egyptians not to be influenced by western media, and by some western tourists who make a bloody good job of perpetuating the western media stereotypes, it makes me ashamed to be British sometimes. But equally, it's hard for westerners sometimes (especially if they haven't been to a Muslim country) not to be influenced by the media portrayal of Arabs.
agree with both here.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Question:
(Please only those who have visited or lived in Egypt answer)
Who do you think is more tolerant?
A.) Your own countrymen/women in your own country towards Egyptians living in your country.
B.) Egyptians in Egypt towards your countrymen/women living/visiting Egypt.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
B) BUT I would qualify that by saying I can pick up intollerance in my kinsmen a lot easier than I can in someone from a different country - heck - who I don't even share a common language with.
But B) by an embarrassingly long way.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
Sitting on the fence maybe but I'd say both! a) Hubby has got on very well with all my friends, neighbours and workmates b) I have never experienced any negativity when visiting Egypt either in Sharm, Cairo or hubby's home town.
Totally agree Something else!
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Bullcrap, still much IS covered, still much is not reported due to an inflicted sense of shame and yes there are many victims who are threatened with violence and death for reporting it or even allowing someone to see or hear about it.
They may be threatened by violence from their abusers, but they know they can fearlessly go to a police station and report the crime.
You can't do that in Muslim countries. Just a while ago, a Saudi judge sentenced a pregnant gang-rape victim to 100 lashes.
"Almost half of married Egyptian women have been physically abused by their husbands, a study by the government statistics centre said on Wednesday.
The study by CAPMAS said that 47 percent of women between the ages of 15 and 49 reported being victims of domestic violence and seven percent said a spouse raped them, state news agency MENA reported.
Domestic violence is punishable under Egyptian law, but police are reluctant to intervene in something that is considered a private matter, said an Egyptian women's rights activist.
"If a woman complains, it would be considered a crime. But if she doesn't, the husband won't be punished," Nahed Abu el-Qumsan, head of the Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights, told AFP.
The study was released to coincide with the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.
A report by the World Health Organisation (WHO) published in April said that violence by men against spouses routinely resulted in troubled or aborted pregnancies, chronic pain and depression.
An Overview of Domestic Violence Against Women in Rural Egypt
Women in Egypt face a myriad of problems and inequities, and domestic violence is one of the most serious. In Egypt today, gender oppression and discrimination is widespread, and male supremacy is the accepted norm. Such inequalities lay the foundation for domestic violence and exploitation of women. Despite successes in raising awareness and setting new standards for the treatment of women, very little has actually changed in the lives of most women in Egypt and violence remains a fact of life which is rarely, if ever, discussed. This paper summarizes our research examining the extent of domestic violence in rural Egypt, the various forms it takes, it’s causes, and consequences. The aim of this research is to explore the impact of Egyptian culture, and socialization, on women\'s submission to domestic violence. Only by understanding the various dimensions of the Egyptian culture that normalize violence against women, can we develop programs and interventions to empower women to refuse and resist this violence.
B] I utterly agree with Monkey here, and I guess that is the heart of the problem. Also, it's easy in your own country to confront intolerance, easy when you aren't suspecting you are the victim. I have even more sympathy now for those poor beleaguered immigrants back in the UK.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by young at heart: Sitting on the fence maybe but I'd say both! a) Hubby has got on very well with all my friends, neighbours and workmates b) I have never experienced any negativity when visiting Egypt either in Sharm, Cairo or hubby's home town.
Totally agree Something else!
Come on Young one. How about not your neighbors or your best friend, classmates and co-workers. Naturally such relationships are a little close/personal.
But in-General?
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: Question:
(Please only those who have visited or lived in Egypt answer)
Who do you think is more tolerant?
A.) Your own countrymen/women in your own country towards Egyptians living in your country.
B.) Egyptians in Egypt towards your countrymen/women living/visiting Egypt.
For your comparison to have any validity the "B" part of your question should be:
B) Egyptians in Egypt towards Sudanese, Somalians, blacks, Bahais, Sufis, Copts living/visiting Egypt.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Incidence of domestic violence among Muslims
Domestic violence is considered by many to be a problem in Muslim-majority cultures.[24]
The incidence in many Muslim-majority countries (where women hide their bruises and little is ever reported to authorities) is uncertain, but believed to be great by Muslim feminists. In some Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia,[25] reports indicate that domestic violence is quite widespread. One recent study, in Syria, found that 25% of the married women surveyed said that they had been beaten by their husbands.[26]
One study found that half of Palestinian women have been the victims of domestic violence.[27] A WHO study in Babol found that within the previous year 15.0% of wives had been physically abused, 42.4% had been sexually abused and 81.5% had been psychologically abused (to various degrees) by their husbands, blaming low income, young age, unemployment and low education.[28]
A 1987 study conducted by the Women's Division and another study by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in 1996 suggested that domestic violence takes place in approximately 80 percent of the households in the country.[29][30][31] In Pakistan, domestic violence occurs in forms of beatings, sexual violence or torture, mutilation, acid attacks and burning the victim alive (bride burning).[32]
According to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences in 2002, over 90% of married women surveyed in that country reported being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, when the women had ‘failed’ to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy, or had an illicit affair.[33]
The prevalence of domestic violence has been cited as a cause of high rates of suicide, mostly through self-immolation, among Kurdish women in Iran.[34]
Availability of remedies for abused wives
Prosecution for domestic violence
According to Ahmad Shafaat, an Islamic scholar, "If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Qur'an and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her."[35]
However, laws against domestic violence, as well as whether these laws are enforced, vary throughout the Muslim world.
Domestic violence is not explicitly prohibited in Pakistani domestic law[36][37] and most acts of domestic violence are encompassed by the Qisas and Diyat Ordinance. Nahida Mahboob Elahi, a human rights lawyer, has said that new laws are needed to better protect women.[38] The police and judges often tend to treat domestic violence as a non-justiciable, private or family matter or, an issue for civil courts, rather than criminal courts.[39] In Pakistan, "police often refuse to register cases unless there are obvious signs of injury and judges sometimes seem to sympathise with the husbands."[40]
Few empirical studies have examined the relationship between religion and domestic violence.[4] Four major surveys of wife assault found no causal relationship between men raised in a "patriarchal system" and incidence of wife assault,[5], and faith groups endorsing hierarchical marital structures do not appear to report higher rates of interpersonal violence.[6]
One 2004 study by William Bradford Wilcox examined the relationship between religious affiliation, church attendance, and domestic violence, using data on wives' reports of spousal violence from three national United States surveys conducted between 1992 and 1994.[4] The study found that the lowest reported rates of domestic violence occurred among active conservative Protestants (2.8% of husbands committed domestic violence), followed by those who were religiously unaffiliated (3.2%), nominal mainline Protestants (3.9%), active mainline Protestants (5.4%), and nominal conservative Protestants (7.2%).[4] Overall (including both nominal and active members), the rates among conservative Protestants and mainline Protestants were 4.8% and 4.3%, respectively.[4] Examining Wilcox's study, Van Leewun finds that the parenting style of conservative Protestant fathers is characterized by features which have been linked to positive outcomes among children and adolescents,[7] that there is no evidence that gender-traditionalist ideology of the "soft patriarchal" kind is a strong predictor of domestic physical abuse,[8] and that "gender hierarchialist males" who are frequent and active church members function positively in the domestic environment.[9]
Another 2007 study by Christopher G. Ellison found that "religious involvement, specifically church attendance, protects against domestic violence, and this protective effect is stronger for African American men and women and for Hispanic men, groups that, for a variety of reasons, experience elevated risk for this type of violence."[10] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_domestic_violence
The Silent Epidemic
Countless Christian women are battered every day. Here's how to respond if you or someone you love is abused.
Her husband's comments were so routine that for 20 years, Brenda Branson didn't realize she was a victim of verbal and emotional abuse.
"You breathe too loud," her husband would tell her. "Your smile is silly. You look terrible. Don't you have anything better to wear?"
It wasn't until Brenda realized his comments weren't true that she approached him. And that's when he picked up a chair and hit her with it. Brenda knew she had to do something, so she went to her pastor. Unfortunately he wasn't equipped to handle domestic abuse; his suggestions about submitting to her husband only made her home life more difficult. "Our church didn't know what to do with us," Brenda says. "They just wanted the problem to go away."
Brenda got the help she needed by forming a support group with another domestic-violence victim. Then in 1995 she cofounded Focus Ministries, one of the few Christian organizations devoted to helping victims of domestic violence while also training churches on how they can assist members who are being abused.
According to Detective Sgt. Don Stewart, a retired police officer who handled domestic violence cases for 25 years, one out of every four Christian couples experiences at least one episode of physical abuse within their marriage. In fact, battering is the single largest cause of injury to women—more than auto accidents, muggings, and rapes combined.The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists reports that 3 to 4 million women are beaten in their homes every year. According to the U.S. Department of Justice, approximately 2,000 women are murdered every year by an intimate partner.
The false doctrine of female subordination to male authority lies at the very root of domestic abuse and domestic violence among professing Christians. The premise is despotic and abusive in and of itself. Domestic Violence among Christians will never be eradicated until gender equality for Christian women is acknowledged and practically implemented.
We decry the abuse of women in third world countries all in the name of religion. Yet the same degradation of women goes on in this country among many Christians, who verbally, physically, and financially abuse their wives. In addition, verbal and physical abuse of men is increasing rapidly. The shame is on our heads, because God gives Christians the tools to stamp out spouse abuse among us. http://www.gospelthemes.com/abuse.htm
There's more if you want it, now bugger off.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: B) BUT I would qualify that by saying I can pick up intollerance in my kinsmen a lot easier than I can in someone from a different country - heck - who I don't even share a common language with.
But B) by an embarrassingly long way.
Yes, I agree with this.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled:
quote:Originally posted by young at heart: Sitting on the fence maybe but I'd say both! a) Hubby has got on very well with all my friends, neighbours and workmates b) I have never experienced any negativity when visiting Egypt either in Sharm, Cairo or hubby's home town.
Totally agree Something else!
Come on Young one. How about not your neighbors or your best friend, classmates and co-workers. Naturally such relationships are a little close/personal.
But in-General?
Well in general I have to answer the same Exiled! He has been here for 2 years now and has not experienced any negativity in his day to day life, that is not to say it is not out there because I know it is. Maybe it is because the negativity appears mainly after nights out and people are full of drink and he has never been in that situation.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Bullcrap, still much IS covered, still much is not reported due to an inflicted sense of shame and yes there are many victims who are threatened with violence and death for reporting it or even allowing someone to see or hear about it.
They may be threatened by violence from their abusers, but they know they can fearlessly go to a police station and report the crime.
You obviously didn't read what I said and no they cannot fearlessly toddle off down the cop shop and report it! I've been there so I do know what I'm talking about, you don't.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
In theory vw, but the reality is that they love him and he'll change and it's the drink and it's this and it's that and they can't leave now because it's christmas and then they can't leave because it's valentines then they can't leave because he lost his job then they can't leave because its his birthday and he's a nice person really and everyone says so and blah blah blah blah.
I have been there too.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:You obviously didn't read what I said and no they cannot fearlessly toddle off down the cop shop and report it! [Roll Eyes] I've been there so I do know what I'm talking about, you don't.
In the UK there's no taboo in reporting domestic violence or even rape to the police. If it was, there wouldn't be so many bogus accusations as I have showed in my previous post. Obviously it is you who don't read.
Can a Muslim woman report a crime to the police in an Islamic country and live to see the next day? Women who are harmed or raped in Muslim nations run the risk of being punished for reporting their attack, either by Sharia laws, or by their family members (honor killing). The fact that Muslim women are afraid to report abuse to the police doesn't mean they aren't being abused.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
I've been there too Monkey, and although it was a long time ago, I still remember most the truly awful shame of it. I couldn't have gone to the police, or anyone in fact, couldn't even talk to friends and family. I don't think that aspect is a subject that men could ever get their heads round.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I would add that it did occur here in the UK and the culprit was half British. Loons come from here and equally they come from elsewhere. And, VW, he came from a good Catholic family
Its amazing really. Once you do leave you think crikey moses, what was all that about? It's getting your head around the thought of leaving that's the hard part.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
Ok, so far we have it 3 for B and 1 for neither. Given that 2 voters live there and the other a frequent visitor, we can conclude that Egyptians are tolerant.
So what's the problem? Are we to step on the very society that is kind, gracious, loving even if they have a double standard problem. Egyptians are wonderful people, how many times in my life I wished more people were like Egyptians, even with all their faults. Yes the “Khaly” comment before paying is annoying. Sure the over ass-kissing is annoying. Yes the pettiness is annoying. Yes the trying to cheat a few L.E here and there is annoying (probably much for more noobs). But with all these shortfalls Egyptians are a kind people.
I also know what irked women most in this thread was the fact that they hate being deemed loose by Egyptian society. And that's the root of the problem in this thread – being deemed loose.
Yes it's a double standard because some Egyptian women date, but yet western women in general are deemed loose. What are you going to do? You can let it eat you or you can accept this perception and live your life. You're not going to change 80 million minds, most of whom are very simple minded people. Especially with the perception that European women flock to Egyptian resorts to get laid.
So chill. There are good aspects to Egypt and there are very frustrating aspects as well. Who cares what people think. And it's true the more people in your community know you the more loose perception whithers, but who should care anyway, right.
Now as for the domestic violence issue. I think all societies live in glass houses in this respect, all should be ashamed, and while Egypt doesn't have the stats yet, the western world sure does and they are very ugly. When Egypt starts registering stats, I won't be surprised if they are significant, but they certainly won't dismiss the ugly stats I've been reading past day or so. Just my 2 cents.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Domestic violence is not restricted to Muslims, British, or Catholics. It happens everywhere.
The point is that a British women is far more likely to go to the police to report her abuser, while a Muslim woman will rarely go to the police to report her abuser because she knows the police will often take the side of her abuser. That doesn't mean that domestic violence is more prevalant in the UK than it is in Egypt as exile implies.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Domestic violence is not restricted to Muslims, British, or Catholics. It happens everywhere.
The point is that a British women is far more likely to go to the police to report her abuser, while a Muslim woman will rarely go to the police to report her abuser because she knows the police will often take the side of her abuser. That doesn't mean that domestic violence is more prevalant in the UK than it is in Egypt as exile implies.
I have stats to back up the fact that the UK has a serious domestic violence issue. Possibly the most in all of Europe.
You actually implied that UK muslims were the reason.
So stop with "exile implies." I don't imply I state!
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Another reason why a Muslim woman is less likely to complain about abuse:
When some women complained of abuse to Muhammad, he refers to them as "not the best among you".
Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
And in Sahih Muslim 4.2127: Aisha recalls a time Muhammad "struck me on the chest which caused me pain".
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
vw, I agree with what you're saying to some extent. I don't think an Egyptian woman is as likely to go to the police as a British woman, but I don't agree it's solely for the reason you've cited. It seems a little more complicated than that. If you're going to go to the police it naturally follows you're going to leave and presumably you have to have somewhere to go to? I.e. there needs to be a support system/family or that woman has to be self sufficient. That's how it seems to me but I'm not going to sit here and pretend to be an expert.
I also agree that a lot of cases of abuse go unreported here, but you do get the odd psycho who'll think nothing of calling them out over nothing. I have a colleague - a decent guy too - whose ex went dolally tap at him smacking the crap out of him. He pushed her off him, she rang the cops. This happened twice in a week.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"I have stats to back up the fact that the UK has a serious domestic violence issue. Possibly the most in all of Europe."
Muslim women do not easily report domestic violence so there are no statistics available on the actual reality of domestic violence in Muslim countries. If you can not provide similar studies and stats from Muslim countries, you can NOT legitimately come to any conclusions other than 'human abuse of human occurs'. The degree to which it happens can not be determined to be greater or lesser without comparative statistics.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Domestic violence is not restricted to Muslims, British, or Catholics. It happens everywhere.
The point is that a British women is far more likely to go to the police to report her abuser, while a Muslim woman will rarely go to the police to report her abuser because she knows the police will often take the side of her abuser. That doesn't mean that domestic violence is more prevalant in the UK than it is in Egypt as exile implies.
So what about the British Muslim women? You're comparing apples to nuts. Anything and anyway to get in your hatred for Islam in any way you can, you're obsessed.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: Another reason why a Muslim woman is less likely to complain about abuse:
When some women complained of abuse to Muhammad, he refers to them as "not the best among you".
Narrated Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab: Iyas ibn Abdullah ibn AbuDhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon_him) as saying: Do not beat Allah's handmaidens, but when Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them. Then many women came round the family of the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) complaining against their husbands. So the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) said: Many women have gone round Muhammad's family complaining against their husbands. They are not the best among you.
And in Sahih Muslim 4.2127: Aisha recalls a time Muhammad "struck me on the chest which caused me pain".
More opinions How many Egyptian women would even read this hadith, or even hear it? More than half of them can't even read, and this is true for both Muslims and Christians.
Egyptians aren't very hadith heavy nor are thet religious heavy. They are more into the basics.
You're making assumptions, how about some facts.
If I'm desperate could I do the same and look up somewhere as to why most UK women neglect to report domestic abuse?
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"Possibly the most in all of Europe."
The UK has more immigrants than any other country in Europe.
Seriously, if you were British the BNP would just love you.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "I have stats to back up the fact that the UK has a serious domestic violence issue. Possibly the most in all of Europe."
Muslim women do not easily report domestic violence so there are no statistics available on the actual reality of domestic violence in Muslim countries. If you can not provide similar studies and stats from Muslim countries, you can NOT legitimately come to any conclusions other than 'human abuse of human occurs'. The degree to which it happens can not be determined to be greater or lesser without comparative statistics.
It's more than appropriate. Countries that have genuine domestic violence stats can and are ranked accordingly. There will be a day when more nations will register and release their own stats. The excuse that Egyptian women both Muslim and Christan don't report their crimes should get the UK off the hook for domestic violence is nonsense. Most UK domestic violence incidents in the UK go unreported. Egyptian women both Muslim and Christan are not the only ones who are intimidated or afraid to report domestic abuse.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
Do you honestly think Egyptians would be as tolerant as the British are if their country were flooded with millions of Sudanese, Somalians etc? immigrants of all faiths?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Doesn't Egypt have immigrants now? I thought they had a fair few of them. Take a look around. Or is it just the black ones we should take umbridge at?
Don't get that comment.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
"Doesn't Egypt have immigrants now?"
What they have now is rich tourists. I'd like to see how they treat people whom they consider "inferior" to judge if they are tolerant or not. For example I'd like to see how they treat the Sudanese, Nigerians etc.
If a British person treated a Dutch person with respect, but treated a Pakistani person like a dirt, would you think that person is racist or tolerant?
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "Doesn't Egypt have immigrants now?"
What they have now is rich tourists. I'd like to see how they treat people whom they consider "inferior" to judge if they are tolerant or not. For example I'd like to see how they treat the Sudanese, Nigerians etc.
If a British person treated a Dutch person with respect, yet treated a Pakistani person as a dirt, would you think that person is racist or tolerant?
quote: What they have now is rich tourists.
LOL
Egypt is the one of the cheapest destinations in the world for sun-worshippers living in Europe.
It's flooded with Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans.
You don't know jack about Egypt.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Yes Monkey, there are a lot of immigrants. I know a whole community of Ghanians who were deported not so long ago.
And you don't need to be rich to be a tourist in Egypt. You can be an average income, working class westerner and have 2 weeks in the sun for a very cheap price. That is why the Red Sea is so popular.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv: "Doesn't Egypt have immigrants now?"
What they have now is rich tourists. I'd like to see how they treat people whom they consider "inferior" to judge if they are tolerant or not. For example I'd like to see how they treat the Sudanese, Nigerians etc.
If a British person treated a Dutch person with respect, but treated a Pakistani person like a dirt, would you think that person is racist or tolerant?
So you think you can judge all Egyptians as racists and all Westerners as being whiter than white so far as racial tolerance is concerned? Pardon the pun but come to mention it, a lot of Brits aren't white. I don't look at Linford Christie as being any less British than me. Feck, how many gold medals have I ever brought home?
So Egypt has no migrant workers? I don't mean sun worshipers, I mean economic migrants.
vw, do you actually know any Egyptians personally? I think it would give you a better perspective to actually talk to one to see how racially intollerant they are (or not, as the case may be) rather than relying on what you see on websites. My chap's auntie is married to a black guy
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Egypt is the one of the cheapest destinations in the world for sun-worshippers living in Europe.
It's flooded with Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans.
Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans are just that: Europeans. No matter how poor you are in Egypt you are considered rich just because you are European.
But non Europeans and especially black Africans are not treated well. You said that poor African immigrants are considered a drain on Egyptian society and Egyptians resent them. Yet in the same breath you say they are tolerant because they treat Europeans well. Would you say the same if a British person treated a Dutch or a Swedish person well, but viewed Egyptians or Pakistans as a drain on society? treated them with comtempt? Why is the first considered tolerant and the other racist? A wise man said a good measure of a person is not how they treat their equals, but how they treat their "inferiors".
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Egypt is the one of the cheapest destinations in the world for sun-worshippers living in Europe.
It's flooded with Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans.
Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans are just that: Europeans. No matter how poor you are in Egypt you are considered rich just because you are European.
But non Europeans and especially black Africans are not treated well. You said that poor African immigrants are considered a drain on Egyptian society and Egyptians resent them. Yet in the same breath you say they are tolerant because they treat Europeans well. Would you say the same if a British person treated a Dutch or a Swedish person well, but viewed Egyptians or Pakistans as a drain on society? treated them with comtempt? Why is the fisrt considered tolerant and the other racist? I have seen Egyptians treat Sudanese really bad, call them apes and monkeys, treat them really with contempt. A wise man said a good measure of a person is not how they treat their equals, but how they treat their "inferiors".
quote: Russians, Ukrainians and East Europeans are just that: Europeans. No matter how poor you are in Egypt you are considered rich just because you are European.
Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Not True for Egypt. There is a huge difference between a Brit and someone from Ukraine or Eastern Europe. You actually have to live or know Egyptians to understand this. It might be 2011 but East Europeans are just.
Not on UK/FR level that's for sure. The tour operators know this and so do the the people in Egypt. Speak to tour opertaors if you know any and they will give you the rundown.It's just different mentalities, a Russian can't be compared to a Brit for example.
Have you ever visited Egypt?
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
So in contrast all Egyptians who travel to Europe must therefore be poor.
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
I have met Egyptians and I have been to Egypt. I have met good and bad Egyptians. What I have seen is that Egyptians are more bigoted as a people than the British are. People in third world countries tend to be more bigoted, that's understandable, and has a lot to do with lack of education, it doesn't mean they are bad people or that they are worse than any other people.
*sniff
*sniffff
*snifffff
I smell khara!
*khara = **** (arabic slang)
Posted by vwwvv (Member # 18359) on :
I don't even like being called British let alone European, I much prefer English, seeing as I was born in England. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Only the rich can afford to flee Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I also know what irked women most in this thread was the fact that they hate being deemed loose by Egyptian society. And that's the root of the problem in this thread – being deemed loose.
Yes it's a double standard because some Egyptian women date, but yet western women in general are deemed loose. What are you going to do? You can let it eat you or you can accept this perception and live your life. You're not going to change 80 million minds, most of whom are very simple minded people. Especially with the perception that European women flock to Egyptian resorts to get laid.
The problem is alot of western women go to Egypt to get their pussies petted by the local lads.
Or in some cases their hands petted, while gazing into the eyes of a local lad as he whispers sweet nothings.
Here's a great solution, don't flirt, don't get your pussy petted in Egypt. Get your funk on back in your own nation. WHile in Egypt don't partake in the yummy brown men.
Problem solved.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Russians are not considered European in anyones eyes but yours it seems. Do you know where Europe is and where Russia is?
quote:Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
That would be every country outside Egypt then. Egyptians are an incredibly proud nation of people, everything and everywhere has a flag, and not just since the revolution either. On TV it's all 'biladi biladi' 'Masry ya omi' and same again not only since the revolution. To an Egyptian no one on earth matches them, and they treat all with respect no matter where they come from or how poor they are.
On the other side of the coin, those in Cairo do look down on those in Upper Egypt and those on the East Bank of Luxor look down on those on the West Bank of Luxor. It all depends on how you look at it but the poorest farmer on the west bank would share his food with a Russian, European, Ghanaian, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, etc no matter what the colour, religion or financial means.
I don't think you've ever spent any time in Egypt at all.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I also know what irked women most in this thread was the fact that they hate being deemed loose by Egyptian society. And that's the root of the problem in this thread – being deemed loose.
Yes it's a double standard because some Egyptian women date, but yet western women in general are deemed loose. What are you going to do? You can let it eat you or you can accept this perception and live your life. You're not going to change 80 million minds, most of whom are very simple minded people. Especially with the perception that European women flock to Egyptian resorts to get laid.
The problem is alot of western women go to Egypt to get their pussies petted by the local lads.
Or in some cases their hands petted, while gazing into the eyes of a local lad as he whispers sweet nothings.
Here's a great solution, don't flirt, don't get your pussy petted in Egypt. Get your funk on back in your own nation. WHile in Egypt don't partake in the yummy brown men.
Problem solved.
Thats right sono, stay home and do it online while your hubby's asleep, right? Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by vwwvv:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: No. Russians are not European. They're Russian. Honest.
In their eyes they are European. They consider Russia as more sophisticated and advanced than Egypt.
Again, I'd like to see how Egyptians treat citizens from countries they consider "inferior". Also, I'd like to see how they treat Bahais, sufis, Hindus, etc. before deciding whether they are more tolerant than the British.
I posted something about racism in Egypt and the Egyptian khawaga complex on this thread last night. It's worth a read.
Btw, long live Russia!! Posted by tigerlily_misr (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Thats right sono, stay home and do it online while your hubby's asleep, right?
Lol she always writes that dirty before sunrise. Honestly I think she wouldn't mind at all to get her you know what petted by a yummy brown man (wow I never thought I would be that racist as I usually don't like to talk about skin color ) if she would just have the money to travel. Unfortunately the scruffy looking homeless guy under the bridge not far from her hut has to fulfill her needs for the timebeing. That's the truth, that's how Sono gets her funk on.
Me further thinks she's jealous because other women do get laid while on holidays while she can't afford even one!!! Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Thats right sono, stay home and do it online while your hubby's asleep, right?
I am not currently legally married, and nor are you.
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by tigerlily_misr:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Thats right sono, stay home and do it online while your hubby's asleep, right?
Lol she always writes that dirty before sunrise. Honestly I think she wouldn't mind at all to get her you know what petted by a yummy brown man (wow I never thought I would be that racist as I usually don't like to talk about skin color ) if she would just have the money to travel. Unfortunately the scruffy looking homeless guy under the bridge not far from her hut has to fulfill her needs for the timebeing. That's the truth, that's how Sono gets her funk on.
Me further thinks she's jealous because other women do get laid while on holidays while she can't afford even one!!!
And you don't get laid for all of 2007, and well over half your marriage because he's off killing civilians some of which are those yummy brown boys.
Yes I am awake no work tomorrow.
And I can afford a vacation unlike you who is living off a military retirement for a family of four.
as for "yummy brown boy" reference it came from Debbie an old timer who no longer posts, and it was used by many sex tourists who posted at that time.
At least I didn't grow up with the term "black labor" meaning "illegal labor". And you are racist tigerweed very racist. And if you'd like I'll go collect your racist posts and repost them every time you claim not to be racist.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: What I was trying to say, [here we go, having to simplify] is that there is a lot going on under the surface with Egyptians, a lot that is culturally instinctive, and quite different from what you or I are used to. And I wondered if somewhere along the line I was allowing myself to be misled regarding relationships with Egyptian friends. Whether what I would want to view as a close friendship or a vague acquaintanceship, is actually viewed quite differently by the other party.
I guess whether your friends genuinely like you is something only you can tell. Personally, I do trust my Egyptian friends, and I am sure their affection is genuine. But I first thought your post was more related to the often heard statement that *all* Egyptians are super-friendly and love foreigners. That, I feel, is not necessarily true, which makes it a bit difficult for us to know how people we encounter in our daily lifes really feel about us.
I think both statements – that Egyptians love foreigners, and that they don't like us or look down on us – contain some truth, even if that sounds contradictory at first. But then it's the same with the 3odet el khawaga, it's a strange and contradictory mixture of admiration and jealousy with a hint of contempt thrown in.
Hope I'm making some sort of sense here, still having my second coffee and not really able to put my thoughts into proper sentences. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
And I can afford a vacation unlike you who is living off a military retirement for a family of four.
No you can't, you have clearly stated that your ex yummy brown boy and his family pay all your costs, including personal shopping and flights.
The reference to online while hubby is asleep was to your cyber sessions which gave rise to the disgusting flap pics, at which time you were married. Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
God, I sound paranoid even to myself. I'm not! Really. I do trust my Egyptian friends, and yes, the affection is genuine, but .... having been badly let down recently .... I would be cautious about relying too much on the depth of that feeling. I think if I had a real problem, I wouldn't want to test that friendship. I have seen instances where fellow expats have turned for help to people who they had known for years, ['you are my sister/brother, I would do anything for you'] and were dismayed to find that their problems were either ignored, or actually exploited. In everyday commercial dealings, it is a policy to get everything in writing, signed, witnessed, stamped etc. Even amongst family members apparently. Trust is not common ["Trust in God, but tie up your camel"] It really is a cultural thing.Tribal. It's not about racism, but I suspect that maybe, as some people on here have encountered 'Love-Lite' there is a form of 'Friendship-Lite'. Absolutely genuine and sincere from the point of view of the Egyptian friend, but with cultural limitations that don't surface unless the 'rains come'.
Anyway, my crazy neighbours [mostly Bedu]are throwing a huuuge party tonight [they've been practising all week! Bands and gunfire.] so maybe if I can get past the language barrier, I will have a totally different point of view tomorrow.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
aahh bands and gunfire party. Beware, that could be turned into 'huge 4 hour battle with gunshots and molotov cocktails' as it apparently did here in Luxor recently when 2 families were having the usual barney about their kids mixing (male and female) and in another area fireworks were going of, the rumour mongers turned into a huge war with gunshots and molotov cocktails. Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Oh Ayisha, I know! There really is a strong possiblity of range war breaking out [amongst these lifelong tribal friends HA] thank goodness I can't get drunk. I was wondering about what to wear, maybe body armour; this is the first time I've been to one of these events alone, and at the last Bedouin [wedding] party I attended a fight broke out. Women, wielding BONES!! And before anyone says anything about the social level of these guys, forget it. I'm the poor relation around here.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
that it's common over the globe. I mean look at the misconceptions and prejudices Brits have had of immigrants over the years - 'behaving like animals' 'at it like rabbits' 'living 100 to a room (often out of necessity!)' 'government handouts that should be going to our own' 'taking jobs from our people' (that 'our' people wouldn't even consider doing) etc etc. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Europeans are deemed outstanding and professional in many parts of Asia. Companies even “rent White foreigners” in China - I kid you not. In South East Asia, Nigerians and Iranians can never catch a break. They are deemed drug smugglers and con artists. This is the result of a few bad apples that are caught scamming people and also the constant negative press from arrests for drug smuggling at airports. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)