This is topic Advice for mlebev or anyone else getting married to an Egyptian in forum Share Your Egyptian Experiences/Love & Marriage chat at EgyptSearch Forums.
1) Have a basic understanding of Islam and Coptic Christianity as the religion is very important here
2) Try and learn more about the strata of society and geographic location of your intended. i.e. Upper Egyptians think differently from cairiens
3) Have a basic understanding of Middle Eastern politics, the 6 day war and its affect on Egypt, The British Mandate, etc
4) Arabic, the more language you know the better especially for communicating with other members of the family that don't speak English, often the women
5) Your in laws; although a particular area, religion, class might have certain attitudes your particular family might have completely different ones.
6) Egyptian cooking and food, gives you a big insight into have they spent the entire weeks food budget on that meal for you, how many hours of preparation went into the food.
Now lets get down to the fella and your future if you got together what
7) country, IMHO it is better for the Westerner to move to Egypt but what ever you should both feel the same
8) children, are you going to have any, what religion, what upbringing
9) jobs what realistically could either of you work in, what salary does that pay, what lifestyle will that give you
10) setting up a business. You hear this so many times we will set up a business together. What experience do you have of running a business in your country where you know the rules regulations tax situation law etc. How easy would it be to set up a business from scratch not knowing all of that and with no experience. How soon would it provide you with a living
11) roles in the UK we sort of know and assume that if you are a husband or wife you will behave in a certain way. In Egypt those roles are different. So you may be talking the same language but the mean is totally different to both of you. find out what those meanings are. Take a 'good wife' to him that might mean staying at home all the time, producing children, hand washing and ironing his galabeyas, cooking endless meals to you that might mean having a good career that means you are able to contribute equally to the family budget.
12) if he is a Muslim there are certain things both the religion and more especially the culture allow e.g multi wives, wife beating, fgm. Do you and him see eye to eye on these important matters.
13) what is your religion and how accommodating of it is he, Muslims can marry non Muslims but does he believe that or is he expecting you to convert
14) make sure you know your law, both in your own country and your husbands country. What are your rights, can you get a divorce, who gets custody of the children
And all that before you sign the papers, sell the house and get the settlement visa PLEASE!!!!!!
Posted by mlebev (Member # 13788) on :
thanks akshar great post i would love to learn arabic is ther anyway on the net i could learn
Posted by Sobriquet (Member # 13217) on :
quote:Originally posted by mlebev: thanks akshar great post i would love to learn arabic is ther anyway on the net i could learn
I'll teach you a little Arabic! Here is an Arabic proverb:
if your friend is honey don't lick it all Posted by mlebev (Member # 13788) on :
wwwhhhhaaaaattttttttt
Posted by Sobriquet (Member # 13217) on :
quote:Originally posted by mlebev: wwwhhhhaaaaattttttttt
it means try and help yourself a little bit, it is not very difficult to obtain information on online arabic instruction.
la'sahibek 3asal latilhasuh kolloh if your friend is honey don't lick all of it
You said you wanted us to help make your time fly by faster, well i am trying my best Posted by Pink cherry (Member # 13979) on :
That is very good advice, I like no 11...
There are people on here who have spent hardly any time with their husband. When they do get together I think they will be in for quite a shock....
I can relate to the whole list Posted by Sobriquet (Member # 13217) on :
Slooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww motion:
If Your Friend (Ashkar) Is Honey (sweet, helpful, etc) Don’t Lick (use up all their time, energy, patience, and kindness. Try to help yourself too. It All (All of what they have to offer)
La'sahibak 3sal latilhasuh kolloh!
it's an Arabic saying
Posted by mlebev (Member # 13788) on :
oh right didnt know that thanks sobriquet
Posted by Sobriquet (Member # 13217) on :
quote:Originally posted by mlebev: oh right didnt know that thanks sobriquet
wow, you're nice i was expecting fangs and claws
yeah don't mind me
here is alittle line frequently used by egyptian women
pronounce just like this:
maa-leash daa-wah b
translation: I am not concerned with
maa-leash daa-wah b [mashakilak] i am not concerned with your problems
maa-leash daa-wah b [masr] i am not concerned with egypt
Posted by mlebev (Member # 13788) on :
thanks for info
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Slooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww motion:
If Your Friend (Ashkar) Is Honey (sweet, helpful, etc) Don’t Lick (use up all their time, energy, patience, and kindness. Try to help yourself too. It All (All of what they have to offer)
La'sahibak 3sal latilhasuh kolloh!
it's an Arabic saying
she has got a good point mlebev, a lot of the questions you ask are available on the net or this site using search
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
Sobriquet, be nice - Bad boy, she is only asking...grrrr
by the way good post Akshar
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
2) Try and learn more about the strata of society and geographic location of your intended. i.e. Upper Egyptians think differently from cairiens
How do you find this out? I mean even if you know where he is from how would you learn how they think in that area vs another area?
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: 2) Try and learn more about the strata of society and geographic location of your intended. i.e. Upper Egyptians think differently from cairiens
How do you find this out? I mean even if you know where he is from how would you learn how they think in that area vs another area?
there are a great number of sociological and anthropological books on this matter. They make s fascinating reading. On my shelves I have Re-envisioning Egypt 1919-1952 The Middle East and What Went Wrong by Bernard Lewis Culture Shock Susan Wilson Khul-Khaal Five Egyptian Women tell their story Nayra Atiya Shahhat An Egyptian Richard Critchfield Honour and Shame Women in Modern Iraq Sana al-Khayyat
There are also authors like Naguib Mahfouz, Ahdaf Soueif who wrote excellent fiction. Read the Sugar street series for a great insight into Cairo. Ahdaf Soueif is my favourite and how she intertwines politics and love. then and now. I also have books from a series by Arabic women writers The Stone of Laughter Hoda Barakat Mothballs Alia Mamdouh The Eye of the Mirror Liana Badr The Homeland Hamida Nana In the House of Silence Fadia Faqir
I also have about 10 books of the 'Not without my daughter' type which give you a great insight into the arrogance of some Western women and the impotence of Arab men in being able to explain some of their deep held beliefs.
BTW when people say a multi cultural relationship needs working at I mean this seriously. Whilst I am delighted to share my book list why on earth haven't you gone down the local library and done some research.
As for knowing where he comes from, ask!!!!!!!
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
I know where he comes from. I just figured people are people and you have good and bad in every culture. Everyone has a diffrant thought process even in the same neighborhood.
I came from multi culture parents and never saw it as such a great obsticle.
Every relationship needs working at. Are you aware of the divorce rate in America?
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I know where he comes from. I just figured people are people and you have good and bad in every culture. Everyone has a diffrant thought process even in the same neighborhood.
I came from multi culture parents and never saw it as such a great obsticle.
Every relationship needs working at. Are you aware of the divorce rate in America?
There that is your first big mistake. By never reading these kind of books or looking into things properly you have applied Western values to people, neighbourhood and community. In Egypt the community or family is more important than the individual. In the same neighbourhood there will be many common thoughts about things. The family or community will unite, especially in their opinion of a foreigner and a marriage between a foreigner and an Egyptian. The needs family and community will often come before the wife. Money also will be distributed to other family and community members. Helping them get married, by a house or car, have medical treatment etc
I suggest you get reading
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Thank you for your advice akshar. I will take your suggestion and read some of these books.
I still hold to the idea of good communication and that comes from the individuals involved no matter what culture they come from. There are successful and unsuccessful relationships regardless of culture, religion, or socioeconomic status. You can see this fact portrayed on this very board.
I am curious, are you Egyptian?
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
No I am British married to an Egyptian and living in Egypt
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Thank you for sharing. Belive me I weigh things heavly. So your insight is appreciated.
Do you mind me asking if you are happily married?
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
Very happily married for nearly 5 years now. Previously I had been married for 12 years to Syrian who died. So I have had 17 years of marriage to Arabs. My love affair with Egypt has been going on 43 years now.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
That is wonderful news. I am so happy to hear this.
My dad and his brother both married Italian women. My mother is not living but I have a healthy relationship with my aunt who has lived in the Middle East and Egypt. She encourages me to go to Egypt. She almost married an Egyptian man. I don't know the details as to why she did not but I do know that she met my uncle while she was living in Iran.
Probably more than you wanted to know...
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by akshar:
As for knowing where he comes from, ask!!!!!!! [/QB]
LOL Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by akshar: there are a great number of sociological and anthropological books on this matter. They make s fascinating reading. On my shelves I have Re-envisioning Egypt 1919-1952 The Middle East and What Went Wrong by Bernard Lewis Culture Shock Susan Wilson Khul-Khaal Five Egyptian Women tell their story Nayra Atiya Shahhat An Egyptian Richard Critchfield Honour and Shame Women in Modern Iraq Sana al-Khayyat
There are also authors like Naguib Mahfouz, Ahdaf Soueif who wrote excellent fiction. Read the Sugar street series for a great insight into Cairo. Ahdaf Soueif is my favourite and how she intertwines politics and love. then and now. I also have books from a series by Arabic women writers The Stone of Laughter Hoda Barakat Mothballs Alia Mamdouh The Eye of the Mirror Liana Badr The Homeland Hamida Nana In the House of Silence Fadia Faqir
I also have about 10 books of the 'Not without my daughter' type which give you a great insight into the arrogance of some Western women and the impotence of Arab men in being able to explain some of their deep held beliefs.
BTW when people say a multi cultural relationship needs working at I mean this seriously. Whilst I am delighted to share my book list why on earth haven't you gone down the local library and done some research.
As for knowing where he comes from, ask!!!!!!!
Reading is helpful yes, but nothing worth learning is ever taught.
Reading all the books in the world is no substitute for experience, the only teacher.
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
"Reading is helpful yes, but nothing worth learning is ever taught."
thats very profound VanillaBullshit...I like it
On another note, I wonder whether any of us would do all the things we advise others before getting married, I didnt think culture would matter that much...but it did, i guess we have to find out for ourselves
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: "Reading is helpful yes, but nothing worth learning is ever taught."
thats very profound VanillaBullshit...I like it
On another note, I wonder whether any of us would do all the things we advise others before getting married, I didnt think culture would matter that much...but it did, i guess we have to find out for ourselves
Wanderer, In what way did it matter so much? And has it caused you to have a bad marriage?
I had a horrible first marriage and we grew up in the same school district.
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
No, I haven't had a bad marriage at all, but it has thrown additional things into the equation that marrying someone from a similar background to mine wouldnt bring, such as:
Ways of parenting, roles of men and women, religious beliefs, ways of dressing, ways of acting - with reference to both sex's, ideas about friendship.
i'l give you some examples - I see my family/friends every now and then, nothing regular, however egyptians generally tend to be much more close than that so i risk offending people. I have discovered that british people keep quite a distance so i dont go out of my way to be a good host/bring presants/make clear that i cant make it for whatever reason but insist on doing something tommorrow, i guess what i'm saying is I could offend easily just by being my normal self, which british people wouldnt find aloof.
I need to be willing to cook a lot of food for guests and invite them over, often.
I need to be sure to visit people when they are sick, even maybe once a day.
I need to be wary of my communication with men, eye contact, being too friendly, not touching in a 'friendly' way (no such thing in arab cultures, like in UK)
I need to be careful about how i dress, because it could be seen as disrespectful
I need to be careful of how i speak to my husband and what i say, because it could be seen as disrespecting him.
I need to be aware of the close relationship he has with his family and friends, kissing, hugging etc.
I need to be ok when him and his friends are chatting in arabic and i have no clue whats going on, all night.
I needed to learn to cook good egyptian food, cos no one likes english food..lol.
soooo much but i will stop there, maybe others could add
and i havent even started on religion or children...lol
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
Yes those are good points wanderer, typical but not universal
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
Never had any problems with my other half. He is very laid back about things.
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
I know akshar and they certainly aren't make or break relationship stuff, they were the first things i could think of, but, like you said, they do highlight how little things you dont think of, even about your own cultural upbringing can make things harder.
In a relationship where you both share the same culture you dont think twice about soooo much stuff, i guess you take it for granted. I'm not explaining myself well tonight because i'm very tired so forgive me. I'm trying to say, Akshar is right and it will surprise you.
Young at heart, of course people are all different. Do you live with your other half?
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: I need to be ok when him and his friends are chatting in arabic and i have no clue whats going on, all night.
This IMO, is outright disrespect regardless of where you're from.
You're effectively telling the person "I'm excluding you from this conversation".
If a girl I was with did this, I would walk away, but that's just me.
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
Exactly Vanilla, and I did find it really annoying at first, but although my husbands english is very good, some of his friends are less confident and i supose they enjoy talking to each other in arabic.
It doesnt bother me anymore, i got used to it, i just switch off, and they do speak in english when they talk to me and my husband is more aware than perhaps they are so includes me. BUT i am quite oblivious to it now to be honest, its only a problem when they start talking to me and i dont hear them cos i'm in a world of my own that ive been in for the past half hour while they were busy chatting...lol
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
How many of those things can you apply to a man from your own country? We are speaking of academics here. Relationships are much more complex.
I have had many opportunities to marry American men and for one reason or another I have not wanted to. Either there was no physical attraction, or a drinking problem, or the man was a pompas ass, or political differences, or he enjoyed visiting prostitutes in Costa Rica... and some of them would seem the perfect match if you get your score card out.
I would imagine that you have opportunity to be with British men. Why did you choose the Egyptian? Why do you stay?
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
I love my husband very much and wouldn't change it for a second, like you say, there are many things in a culture that you might not like. When I met my husband I was dissatisfied with many things and the way of life of my own culture, I already wanted change, but at that time I didnt know what.
If i'd have met him 10 years earlier there would have been no way on earth it would have worked, because i would have been at a different stage in my life, I dont think i would have accepted a different way of life, in fact I know i wouldnt have.
I'm sure you can apply alot of those things to anyone, I am purely speaking of a few of the changes that I had to make, the awareness that I had to develop. I cant speak for all Egyptians or all british, only my experience and those i have observed.
My husband would say the same too, he might struggle with the fact that as a brit i am not very expressive of my emotions - that could make him think i am cold, or maybe his family would think that way.
He might think that as a brit i am not close to my family - i am but my closeness is different to what he is used to.
he might think that i cant cook, because he doesnt like english cooking
he might interpret me saying 'hi' to a bloke as a sign that i am a flirt and dont respect him
he might think that i was wearing tight fitting clothing to attract male attention, when in fact i was wearing it because it was the norm.
he might think i am trying to dominate him if i want to work or pay for things in the house. when to me, i just want to help.
he might think that i am disrespecting him or being arguementative because i have a point of view, he may see that as challenging, i see it as 'just me'
I might want to walk into town, he might want me to get a taxi, i might argue my point and he might see that as me wanting to be 'the man', i might get annoyed and see his behaviour as controlling, or over the top, he might think he is just protecting me.
All i am saying is you have these in addition to the adjustments you have to make in any relationship, so it can be more complex, add any extra thing into a relationship and its going to be harder, thats fact. Learning about some of these things prior to getting married will at least help people know how they are going to deal with them, or whether they CAN deal with them.
As vanilla said, he would find that rude, in some circumstances i agree it can be, but i also understand that it is inevitable.
Posted by MissJambi (Member # 13261) on :
ya i got some advice too... run.. take hide your $$$ and go im not talking like, jogging away, i mean book it!!!!!!
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
Then again, what do I know, i've only had one mixed culture relationship so i could be completely wrong! maybe its just us...lol
Posted by mlebev (Member # 13788) on :
i have a lot of respect for my future husband and he does let me have a point of view hes very protective and sometimes but he doesnt tell me what to do or anything like that he makes slight suggestions and i respect him more for that
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
When you are living there 24/7 you will find that things are not exactly as you thought. My husband was completely different when I was a tourist to when I moved here. Things didn’t matters then but they did when I was living there. I chose to submit to everything and then gradually things changed again. Once I had the respectable reputation then things could relax. It is like taking your driving test and looking in the mirror. You have to exaggerate it in order the examiner notices but one you have passed the test you can be more normal.
I have said this before when you are really living here then a thoughtless action on your part could harm your sister in laws chance of getting married. Because you are not an individual anymore you are a part of that family, that village that town. In the UK my actions affected nobody but myself and I didn’t care. Here I had to care.
And if your husband does not lay the law down then frankly my dear he does not give a damm. It means you are not part of the family; he is able to dismiss your activities. You don't count. So of course he does not waste time saying you can't wear that, do that, say that, laugh like that. If he cares about you and wants you to be a real part of his life then he will change you.
Remember when in Rome be like the Romans. And if you don't want that fine, don't marry him.
Posted by mlebev (Member # 13788) on :
the only thing that he told me to do was change my top cos he didnt like me showing too much shoulders chest and top i was a bit shocked at first but we sat down and he exlained why what i am trying to say is that he tells me what to do but not in a bad way he explains everything so there is nt a argument
Posted by mlebev (Member # 13788) on :
i respect what my b/f says to me he expresses his views but he doesnt do it in a nasty way and demands things
Posted by eshtadiva (Member # 13742) on :
Great discussion here. I too am married to an Egyptian man, I am American. Why did I marry him? Nothing more than we met, we fell in love and the rest is history. lol After 20 years of marriage and living in Egypt, I wouldn't change a thing. I will say he is very western in his thinking, but I do have to respect the culture here and do not find it a problem at all. The thing that is important is to meet his family before you get married. See how they live, see how they act towards you and if you feel you'll be accepted. The way he's raised will make a difference in how your life will be. If the family doesn't accept you, you'll have a very difficult time. This is a class oriented society, so it's good to find out about his lifestyle and the only way to find out is to meet the family. If your from a big city and he's from a small village, you will have one heck of time, education is another point. It's a give and take situation, you must both be open minded and respectful of each others cultures and religion. You'll find that over time and years, you both will give in a bit and change your ways without even realizing and then you'll live in harmony. Not sure harmony is the word. lol Also, if you meet your Egyptian outside of Egypt, they may act very different but when they move back to Egypt,,they revert back to their old ways. This can cause a big problem also. I was lucky as I got to know mine in Egypt so what I saw was what I got. lol
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
It is not about the way he says it that I am trying to get over but that you need to think about these things before you get involved.
I threw away a lot of my wardrobe when I moved here. But there was one top I thought ok and it wasn't. It wasn't a issue if he said I couldn't wear it then I couldn't And you don't go around saying 'I am not going to be dictated to, he knew what I was like etc etc' You have to accept that living in Egypt as the wife of an Egyptian you have to behave differently.
eshtadiva would you like to share some of the stories from your life. If you have been here 20 years it must have been even more conservative when you came. I would be very interested to hear more
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
I can relate totally to what Akshar is saying and the 'looking in the mirror' analogy is spot on.
I think I have been misunderstood also, I'm not saying that my husband does these things in a nasty or horrible way, I'm trying to get accross that he has attached different meanings to things/events than I have and that is often apparent.
I dont think that cultural difference should STOP you being involved with someone, you may grow to love the differences, I have, I am very happy to live the way I do alhamdullillah, but it took some getting used to and I was no different to many people on here- I thought it was nonsense, people are people, which they are, but we dont live in bubbles and our ideas about the way things 'should' be come from our culture.
I wonder whether egypt was more conservative? I have seen pictures of the 60's and 70's and they are full of people with behives and 'western' clothes more than today, in some respects I think Egypt came back to religion - I had expected to see a black and white world of abayas..lol
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
I am enjoying this conversation too. I appreciate this frank discussion.
I think that it takes an open minded person to even entertain the idea of getting involved with someone from a different culture. I would think this to be true from both the man and the woman.
It is important for my Egyptian friend (I will call him my friend because we haven't met yet) that I become Muslim. I know that if he didn't care about me it would be no issue at all. He has said that he accepts me as I am, yet he is always showing me videos of Americans who become Muslim. He tells me that he is not asking me to convert just to watch the video.
There have been times where we wern't understanding the other's meaning but we keep discussing it until we get it. We have also discussed the cultural differences and have concluded that this could be something that may actually make the relationship stronger. You go into it knowing that you have to compromise and work toward understanding each other.
I think eshtadiva statement says a lot "we met, we fell in love". I have heard people say that love is a choice but I have not experianced it that way. I don't know what the future holds but I do know that when I am with him I feel peace. Even if I have been upset his demeanor brings me back to a peace and comfort. At first I was closed to the possiblity but now after two and a half years, I am open to it. We want to meet to see if we feel the same in person as we do online.
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
I agree with you of_gold you love who you love. It sounds as if you are at least thinking about these things, which is more than I did, like you say, you work through things as they arise.
I do think a relationship is easier if people share the same beliefs about God and to be honest Islam made more sense to me than Christianity when I started looking into it, as long as it comes from you then it is good
when are you planning to meet?
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: "Reading is helpful yes, but nothing worth learning is ever taught."
thats very profound VanillaBullshit...I like it
On another note, I wonder whether any of us would do all the things we advise others before getting married, I didnt think culture would matter that much...but it did, i guess we have to find out for ourselves
I also agree with VB, I've read a couple of "informative" books and they helped me almost not at all. Everything I have benefited from has come from living in Egypt, being married to my husband and being immersed in the culture and the families and asking lots of questions. Once you get past the the initial stint of living in Egypt, people will be much more honest with you about the culture, the soceity and how things work. It really is an eye-opener. I have learned so much, mostly that no two families are alike and you can definitely NOT judge a book by its cover.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
I have a contract that is up in October. I am working toward being able to take a trip then. I have never traveled over seas so the whole thing is a new adventure for me. I have my American passport but I am waiting on my Italian birth certificate to be able to apply for my Italian passport. I have dual citizenship.
How does Islam make more sense to you Wanderer?
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
It is true, because in the same way that I have rejected some cultural 'norms' of my society, there will be people in Egypt doing the same, so really I suppose you can only have knowledge of what these cultural norms might be, whether your man conforms to those will be individual. Also, I think the more a person lives in a society, they will gradualy adopt their ways of thinking to some extent
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
of_gold, I think factually it made more sense, scientific facts in the Qur'an and a prophet after Jesus, also I had never viewed Jesus and God as one and the same. I supose they were the main points but also socially it appealed more, the emphasis on family, prayer as part of your everyday, throughout the day, everything you do being related to your religion, I felt more surrounded by it. I found the sense of community much stronger and no longer felt alone, mostly I felt that I could relate to people better than I could before, I had always felt a bit of an outsider in my own religion and community and with Islam I found somewhere I fitted. On a relationship level, finding a man who was 100% man but loved his family wanted commitment and a wife was unusual for me, alot of men in my society are busy proving to themselves that they are men by having multipe 'encounters' with women and generally there is a negativity surrounding marriage and children, its viewed as a hardship rather than something to be celebrated.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Actually Wanderer, I have a debate in myself about Jesus being God. I have read recently that the Hebrew text says that he was born of a young woman, not a virgin. But the Quran also reads that Jesus was born of a virgin. My view is not that one is wrong and one is right but that God is bigger than religion and looks at the heart not the religion. I see religion as a way for man to understand what we can not comprehend. I call myself a Christian because I belive in the teachings of Jesus. Not that I fit in, I definitely don't.
I can relate to the relationship part. Here it seems that most men cheat on their wives and wives cheat too. I want a true love, one that can evolve to the fullest expression.
It seems that many of you have decided to settle in Egypt. May I ask why? and do you have children?
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
I agree that no book is going to tell you as much as actually living here. But some people have never been outside their country and they are proposing to set up in Egypt. At least reading these books before hand will give them some much needed background. I read everything I can lay my hands on as I find it all helps but if I had to pick one it would be the fiction book by Ahdaf Soueif. To quote from the blurb [quote]"In the Eye of the Sun" is a story about growing up, a story about what it is like to be a woman of the East and in the West, a story about the last thirty or so perplexed and bloody years. a story about home. It is the great English novel about Egypt, which is also the great Egyptian novel about England.[quote]
I found it a great help in understanding some of the dynamics that have shaped Egyptian society, her descriptions of police brutality and living in a police state are haunting. But it also explores the differences between East and West from an Egyptian woman's point of view. She lives in London, one of my old syrian friends has met her, she writes in English and her mother translates her novels into Arabic. I totally recommend it in helping you get under the skin of the country before you move there.
I do also agree that Islam makes more sense especially when you live here and see it working. There was a dispute between my husband and some other people about the water and electricity to some land and it was arbitrated and decided by the local sheik. No lawyers involved. I was talking to him about my daughter, she has reached the teenage years and reports back to me on her MSN conversations with her friends back in the UK. It completely horrified me. I don't know if it is true or they are just boasting. I don't like it' I like her living in in an Islamic society and its rules for girls which mean she is safe. My husband then rounded on me and said you agree with so many things about Islam why don't you become a Muslim. Well that shut me up about her It is something I think about a lot but I had the unfortunate experience to be involved in a cult and this has somewhat shattered my ability to believe in things making any change much more complicated. I envy people who have certainty I certainly do not.
BTW this is a great discussion much better than the norm on ES
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
Its funny, I had assumed that you were Muslim Akshar, I dont know why. Is your husband muslim? your daughter?
I think the thing with religions is we attach labels to them, i think that I thought in a muslim way for a long time before i became a muslim, but i can see why if you've had a bad experience of a cult you would want to stick with yourself - if that makes sense.
I find the worrying thing about young people in the Uk is they are looking up to role models that they dont understand, almost everything is becoming acceptable these days and there are no limits, that is scary
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
Having been married to a Syrian living in London where he was unable to find work even thought he was a university graduate of Damascus and the Sorbonne I believed if it was goign to work it would only work in Egypt. My Syrian husband died and I often wonder if he would have done in Syria. He was deeply unhappy because he could not be a real man and provide for his family. I earned so much that he could never compete with me. My Egyptian husband was not so Westernised or educated he stood even less chance of getting a job and even more chance of being emasculated by that.
I felt I could adapt to living in Egypt. I had loved it since I was 9, been goign there since 1979 and came from a cosmopolitan enough background to adapt. i love the history and the people and I felt I had come home the first time I landed here. I feel in love with Egypt 20 years before I feel in love with my husband.
I have a child, she is 15 now and bilingual because of her father but mostly because we came here to live. I knwo her father would be so happy she was living in Arab country, speaking Arabic. Just today I got a phone call from one of her uncles and because she wasn't here we could not communicate. He is phoning again tonight when she can translate for us. One of her uncles who does speak English told me how much he admired me for living here and giving my daughter the chance to experience Arab life. OK Egypt is not Syria but it is a lot closer than the UK is lol
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wanderer: Its funny, I had assumed that you were Muslim Akshar, I dont know why. Is your husband Muslim? your daughter?
I think the thing with religions is we attach labels to them, i think that I thought in a Muslim way for a long time before i became a Muslim, but i can see why if you've had a bad experience of a cult you would want to stick with yourself - if that makes sense.
I find the worrying thing about young people in the Uk is they are looking up to role models that they dont understand, almost everything is becoming acceptable these days and there are no limits, that is scary
that is exactly what my husband means as well. I believe in so much of it but can not make that final leap.
I am soooo lucky that we have found a college course that my daughter can do by correspondence. It is in animal nursing and our local charity ACE are employing her and it has all been approved. So she will end up with a British qualification and Inshahallah by then she will be nearly 19 and a bit more grown up. I can put of the evil moment. By then she might have realized that actually living here she is a lot better off then in the UK. But if she doesn't she will be that bit older and might be able to take care of herself. she might see as you say the role model are not good ones. I do hope so. some of the stuff her friends come up with make my hair stand on end cybersex from one 12 year old!!! Please God it is not true. But with her 15 year old friends the stories about boyfriends and how they receive their parents, drinking. and these are the ones she tells me about. And all from middle class girls with stable family backgrounds. How can you keep your child safe
My husband is Muslim and my daughter and I are both christian
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Oh akshar, I was involved in a type of cult. We were Jesus freaks. This is where I met my x. The belief was that the woman should serve the man and he took it literally. Often telling me that Sarah called Abramham Lord...
I have a 6 year old boy. I have conserns about how it will effect him if I marry a Muslim. But I also want to live my life to the fullest. I would like him to go to school in Europe because I understand that the education is much better in the upper grades. Also, many Americans are so narrow minded and I live in Texas, you see what kind of mind set exsist here in the white house.
My Egyptian friend is open to where we live and travel but he would like to settle in Egypt. He says life is easy there. He has a BA and I think if he came here and got his masters he could get a good job.
What part of Egypt were your husbands from?
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:I read everything I can lay my hands on as I find it all helps but if I had to pick one it would be the fiction book by Ahdaf Soueif.
What is the name of this book?
You are both from the UK. I understand that the life style in Europe is much more laid back than here in the US. We are such a consumer oriented society.
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
The Syrian husband was from Damascus, the capital of Syria and had a masters degree from the Sorbonne as well as a BA from Damascus University. The Sorbonne is the French equivalent of Harvard. When we met he had been living out of Syria either in France or UK for 8 years. He spoke, wrote and read Arabic, French and English. The only work he could get in the UK was as a taxi driver and it didnt cover childcare costs.
The Egyptian husband is from the West Bank, Luxor. He speaks English and Arabic and went to the University of Life.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
My friend is from Al Hema. His degree is in English Lit. He is studing translation. There is a shortage of Arbic translators here. You know we are American, we speak English. lol
Who knows, there are so many Americans out of work these days. I have a contract position at the moment but I went years without a job.
How is your life style there? Do you have the same accomodations that you would have in UK? What about health care, is it good?
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote:I read everything I can lay my hands on as I find it all helps but if I had to pick one it would be the fiction book by Ahdaf Soueif.
What is the name of this book?
You are both from the UK. I understand that the life style in Europe is much more laid back than here in the US. We are such a consumer oriented society.
In the Eye of the Sun
I don't know i think the UK is trying its best to copy America. But it is more multicultural with many different ethnic minorities. For example you can get hold of Halal food easily in most areas. In some towns there are Halal take aways. Where we lived in Ealing there were Polish shops, Japanese shops and Arabic shops because of the large numbers of these nationalities. There are also lots of mosques, I have seen the direction for Mecca in hospitals, schools accommodate fasting pupils. there are Saturday Arabic schools and Islamic schools. Not everywhere and certainly not rural places but you can easily find a town that suits you. But the youth culture is like an American high school
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
I was going to say about my lifestyle but decided not to as that would give you quite a false impression. I came here with a large amount of cash. Because I have a lot of business experience(I ran my own company in the UK and was also chairman of my Trade Association) and I married a very clever man we have invested wisely and made our business into a big success. Hamdallah we have been blessed. My life style is better than the UK but we are a big exception. I do not know many people out here that are doing as well as us. That is why I said in my advice don't think you can run a business here if you haven't run one back home.
Health care is excellent, if you can pay, there is no insurance. I went and saw a consultant the other day 1 appointment and 2 follow ups.cost me 38LE, about $6 USD
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Well, I have my own company but it is just me doing contract work. I am making better than the avarage here at the moment. I work online so I am hoping that it turns into something that I can do from anywhere in the world. Except that I don't want to spend the rest of my life in front of the computer. I have told him that I want to make enough money that I can leave Egypt at anytime I choose if we stay there. At one point he told me he would go to Kuwait to make money because he saw it as the problem and wanted to have enough for me to go back and forth as I please. I encourage him not to go because I didn't know anything about Kuwait and was conserned for his safety. I now know better. He has money. I don't know how much but enough that he dosn't have to work. He also has land. But money there compared to money here is a huge difference. I am going back to school this fall for Internationl Studies, probably trade.
Do you mind if I ask what your business is? I hope I am not being to intrusive by asking all these questions.
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
my husband is from Cairo and is well educated and travelled. I think the UK is becoming very materialistic and I would definately rather move to a country that had more family values and didnt lock murderers up for 30 days. I have heard that kuwait is a good place to work, so are other arab countries, its a huge step, but one that I would consider, if i was sure of good education for my kids. House prices in the UK are ridiculous and we could get a much nicer place for alot less money elsewhere, but i would feel better with the security of a job first i think. Businesses can take a long time to get off the ground and start making money.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Bulgaria has cheap real estate and is now part of the EU.
...a side note.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by akshar: That is why I said in my advice don't think you can run a business here if you haven't run one back home.
I just wanted to pick up on that point as I see many women here stating their boyfiend/husband is going to get them to run a business. Even if you have had business experience in your home country don't think that will necessarily translate into business experience in Egypt. The whole ethos and the way business is done in Egypt is so different to the West, you need an enormous amount of patience and understanding of the social roles played in business let alone the actual so called rules and regulations. It is very hard for a foreign woman to front a business especially if you don't speak arabic, men on the whole I think still prefer to do business with men so you have got to be happy to accept the your role as being in the background. That can be very hard if you are not adaptable to accepting your role is more supporting than leading even if you are the one that on paper maybe has more qualifications and experience.
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
Agreed penny my original advice was
quote: What experience do you have of running a business in your country where you know the rules regulations tax situation law etc. How easy would it be to set up a business from scratch not knowing all of that and with no experience. How soon would it provide you with a living
Your point about men to men business is an addition to that. Often I have to set up and brief my husband and then leave him to it when I would love to be there. And nothing is written down, no progress reports, no plans, they don't work like that but it all seems to work. It took me ages to relax and believe it would happen. Also I find their attitude to future business interesting. when we first started getting bookings for a year ahead my husband found this inexplicable. they just don';t plan thing like that. and trying to get other parts of a tour organised is a nightmare with that attitude. Sometimes I have known we needed donkeys months in advance but can't book them so when it gets nearer the time there are not donkeys!!! So sometimes we have to pay over the odds in order to get one. We have never let a guest down but sometimes I feel like a duck gliding along the water visible to the giants and underneath my legs are going like the clappers dealing with the Egyptians. It has taken ages to get staff that do simple things Ike make beds with top sheets. Stuff you would never have to explain to someone from the UK. and of course the communication problems not speaking Arabic. fortunately I have my daughter to translate as well as my husband and my Arabic has expanded but it still lousy
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by akshar: I agree that no book is going to tell you as much as actually living here. But some people have never been outside their country and they are proposing to set up in Egypt. At least reading these books before hand will give them some much needed background. I read everything I can lay my hands on as I find it all helps but if I had to pick one it would be the fiction book by Ahdaf Soueif. To quote from the blurb [quote]"In the Eye of the Sun" is a story about growing up, a story about what it is like to be a woman of the East and in the West, a story about the last thirty or so perplexed and bloody years. a story about home. It is the great English novel about Egypt, which is also the great Egyptian novel about England.[quote]
I found it a great help in understanding some of the dynamics that have shaped Egyptian society, her descriptions of police brutality and living in a police state are haunting. But it also explores the differences between East and West from an Egyptian woman's point of view. She lives in London, one of my old syrian friends has met her, she writes in English and her mother translates her novels into Arabic. I totally recommend it in helping you get under the skin of the country before you move there.
The stories sound interesting, I would like to read them for the entertainment value more than anything. It is nice to read someone elses point of view. I'm sure it's an interesting read. Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
She is a great writer, short listed for the Booker prize with 'Map of Love' I have 3 of her novels. Naguib is also fantastic writer entertaining as well as informative. He won the Noble prize for Literature. I have 5 of his. these are both Egyptian writers but the other books I mentioned by Arabic women writers are good too. If you like reading then it is well worth exploring the world of Arabic writers.
And all with the added bonus of learning so much more about the Arab and Egyptian culture, history, mindset and life.
quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers:
quote:Originally posted by akshar: I agree that no book is going to tell you as much as actually living here. But some people have never been outside their country and they are proposing to set up in Egypt. At least reading these books before hand will give them some much needed background. I read everything I can lay my hands on as I find it all helps but if I had to pick one it would be the fiction book by Ahdaf Soueif. To quote from the blurb [quote]"In the Eye of the Sun" is a story about growing up, a story about what it is like to be a woman of the East and in the West, a story about the last thirty or so perplexed and bloody years. a story about home. It is the great English novel about Egypt, which is also the great Egyptian novel about England.[quote]
I found it a great help in understanding some of the dynamics that have shaped Egyptian society, her descriptions of police brutality and living in a police state are haunting. But it also explores the differences between East and West from an Egyptian woman's point of view. She lives in London, one of my old Syrian friends has met her, she writes in English and her mother translates her novels into Arabic. I totally recommend it in helping you get under the skin of the country before you move there.
The stories sound interesting, I would like to read them for the entertainment value more than anything. It is nice to read someone else's point of view. I'm sure it's an interesting read.
Posted by ReenaModa831 (Member # 14026) on :
Ok...Ladies and Gentlemen.....I would do anything right now.....to be with my love.....he wants me to come to Egypt and have our family.....could I really leave everything I know.....take my 2 children to a far off country....and expect to have peace....love....the man of my dreams.....I always felt Egypt as home....since I was a child.....but really.....I want us all to be safe.....and the middle east sucks right now......what to do.....what to do.....I love this conversation....it touched me......thank you all.
Posted by ReenaModa831 (Member # 14026) on :
How does Islam feel about Nanny's.....someone to watch over the kids.......so I can spend time with my love? Is it safe?....I ask again.....
Posted by With a name like Smuckers (Member # 10289) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReenaModa831: Ok...Ladies and Gentlemen.....I would do anything right now.....to be with my love.....he wants me to come to Egypt and have our family.....could I really leave everything I know.....take my 2 children to a far off country....and expect to have peace....love....the man of my dreams.....I always felt Egypt as home....since I was a child.....but really.....I want us all to be safe.....and the middle east sucks right now......what to do.....what to do.....I love this conversation....it touched me......thank you all.
How old are your kids? You really want to uproot your kids to a far off foreign country and have a nanny take care of them so you can be with your 'LOVE' ? Who lives like that ??
Posted by ReenaModa831 (Member # 14026) on :
ok... I'm misunderstood.....I want the experience....I have been nowhere in my life, while loyally taking very good care of my 2 children 10 and 5......all alone.....we enjoy life.....and appreciate difference.....they are very well educated......and like I said......this is my love......and yes....we would like to be able to have a date.....a night alone.....is that wrong....are there not the best schools in Egypt?.....are the people not respectable?....I have not seen a problem yet......but I am looking....my children are my world.....and whatever I choose must pass by them first!......Smuckers.....please.....dont be so abrupt.....you don't know me......I am a good person.....just looking for some intelligent advice....
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
quote:Originally posted by ReenaModa831: How does Islam feel about Nanny's.....someone to watch over the kids.......so I can spend time with my love? Is it safe?....I ask again.....
1) please can you start a new topic with your questions 2) please take all the advice I gave in the original post 3) once you have done that you will see that what you have suggested would be totally abhorrent to any Egyptian. "Leaving the kids with a nanny so you can be with your love."!!!!! Actually I think it is totally abhorrent to anyone Western or Egyptian.
Posted by ReenaModa831 (Member # 14026) on :
1) I start the topics I'm interested in... 2) I cant read everything in one night...plus I don't like to be redundant anyway....I am educated as well.....nothing I see here is of any shock.... 3) and when you need alone time....what do you do...I get a nanny or family member to watch over the kids...when I go home to make love and scream.....do you do it with them in the other room and with the lights on?
be nice!
From reading your post....you are insecure and scared.....and Christian?......please....I'm just looking to be safe.....within guidelines.....it's not complicated....you should not reply....but thanks for your effort anyway.....Insha'Allah...
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
Please I do not need these details about your private life and I don't think you should publish them on the internet. I suggest you read the Koran and its guidence about modesty and family life. It should answer your questions. If it doesn't why not go to your mosque and ask them
Posted by Wanderer (Member # 13923) on :
I am guessing that what reena means is babysitters? rather than nannies. I think what she is getting at is if she moves will she get time alone with her partner - ever - if there is no family around, to watch the children for her.
This is a reasonable question if you have been used to alot of free time, perhaps having a family that look after the kids.
Personally I have never had that luxury, my advice would be to get to know your partner more, and his family. If you get to a point when you decide to move there i am sure they would mind the kids while you go out or spend an evening together occasionally (maybe not all night though)
What you describe is life, we all manage to swing from the chandaliers more quietly when we have kids...and neighbours! lol
If you are asking about having a permanent nanny, the whole time, so you can have a lot of free time, i think this is unusual as people have said. Personally I dont think its right either unless it a necessity, but thats just my view - people will disagree.
I do find it strange for this to be your biggest concern about going to Egypt though?
Posted by ReenaModa831 (Member # 14026) on :
thank you Wanderer......I was getting frustrated.......the reason for this question....I'm ok about other things......if I was on my own nothing would concern me......but my kids are my world....and I'm not sure if it's even a bright idea....to be considering taking my kids to the middle east.....but I'm trying to be fair.....believe in the good that I've already seen......but I don't know anyone.......family is not close......and I'm curious about how I would be able to have a date with my love.....nothing major......I find it funny that people can talk crap......then say go read the Koran......is this supposed to make me feel better about the fact that......people still think they are better than others.....because of their religion....it's not as much about modesty, but supposed to be about helping and loving one another without stupid judgments......thank God......I was just trying to prove a point anyway......blah blah blah.....thanks for reading this rant
Posted by ReenaModa831 (Member # 14026) on :
Ok....so I think I stuck my foot in my mouth......I know I sound rude.....I'm just trying to figure out how to possibly fit in to my loves culture......and I'm not seeing it right now.......I did go purchase a Koran last night....as well as language Cd's....and a book to practice writing......I'm sure that if I get the basics.....I will do much better.....with controlling my attitude....I like this site....and everyone has something constructive to say......most of time....I was reading your post's Akshar......I'm sorry you lost your husband.....I didn't mean to offend you.....it sounds as if you are the one person I should listen to more than anyone regarding this subject......please accept my apology.....God bless you all...
Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Who lives like that ??
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Actually I think it is totally abhorrent to anyone Western or Egyptian.