Is this typical Muslim or Egyptian man behavior? My daughter is still in the U.S. but engaged to an Egytian man. She has to ask his permission to go somewhere after dark even though she is half way across the world from him. She thinks this is ok!!!!
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
What age is your daughter? You said that you traveled to Egypt with her, and during that one and only meeting, they engaged. Did you travel with her because she is so young or perhaps immature?
Posted by Egyptmom (Member # 16445) on :
Yes, she is young - 18 - She and her fiance say this is how Muslims are - they get engaged very quickly and don't really date. I feel helpless to prevent this marriage. Everytime I caution her about something she tells him and is mad at me. I am too negative etc. She thinks this controlling behavior is normal and is because he loves her.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
I have to say I would be very concerned if it is like this now with her being so far away what on earth will it be like when she is living there and married Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
hell no it aint normal...i would never ever marry another controlling man in my life...nothin good can come of it...if he is controlling when hes thousands of miles away. just think how he will be when they are face to face..
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Yes, she is young - 18
I gotta say in this age - and she is a young girl still a teenager - people are easy to influence and to brainwash.
If it had to be a Muslim man couldn't she find someone decent in the neighborhood or at least within the US??
Truly, Egyptmom, this all doesn't sound too good to me.
But I guess she has to go her own way and make life experiences. Just let me tell you again caution her not to become pregnant at least within the first two years of marriage.
Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Yes, she is young - 18 - She and her fiance say this is how Muslims are - they get engaged very quickly and don't really date. I feel helpless to prevent this marriage. Everytime I caution her about something she tells him and is mad at me. I am too negative etc. She thinks this controlling behavior is normal and is because he loves her.
She's up shït creek without a paddle.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
can I ask how long your daughter has been Muslim, how she came to convert and her reasons for converting??
VB where you been???
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Well, It may be normal for him, and I would say that a lot of couples live this way when they are living together, but not so much 'asking permission' as letting each other know where they are going.
There are muslims that feel you have to ask the husbands permission to go somewhere, but certainly not all.
I would say that it depends on his reasons for asking. Is he worried about her, is it because he is far away and feels he cannot protect her, so worries more?
I can see why people would think this behaviour is controlling but it might be out of concern for her safety, and it might be hard for him to not be near.
I would also say that before we judge someones behaviour as being controlling or with 'bad' motives we should understand why they do it.
Lastly, problems only occur in a relationship if the two people in it are unhappy with it. If your daughter is happy with this then its not really a problem, but I can understand your concern.
Is there any other behaviour that causes you to be concerned, or is this the only thing?
Posted by Egyptmom (Member # 16445) on :
My daughter converted to Islam soon after she met her fiance online - she claims she didn't do it for him. He certainly was the one who taught her about Islam though. She has been Muslim for about 6 months. I liked the guy and his family when I met them in Egypt. I am just not a trusting person so am a bit more suspicious than my daughter is. Especially after reading most of the posts on EgyptSearch.
As Caterpillar said... I would say that it depends on his reasons for asking. Is he worried about her, is it because he is far away and feels he cannot protect her, so worries more?
I think he is maybe worried about her. He has never been out of Egypt and certainly doesn't know how free a girl's life is in the U.S. especially in a small town.
I would want to know where she was after dark if we were in Egypt.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
¨My daughter converted to Islam soon after she met her fiance online - she claims she didn't do it for him¨
Sad,really disturbing reason to convert to whatever religion.As if she was changing shoes or something. Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Even if she did become muslim 'through' her husband, it doesn't mean that its 'for' him.
Only time will tell whether its 'real' for her. I also think its important for her to find out about Islam herself. This will help her to develop her OWN muslim identity and separate it from what her husband might expect her to be. While they are living apart is an ideal time to do this.
As for Islam, I think its like anything, its all about interpretation and people finding what they are comfortable with. I am a muslim, but wouldn't be happy with having to explain my every move after dark to a husband or fiancé, but thats just me. I am just far too busy to be able to do that and it would make me feel that he didnt trust my judgement. So if it were me, I would talk to him about how it made me feel, and decide it we were going to be compatible.
However, if i wanted to go out at night, I would always tell him what my plans were, or would ask if he minded and tell him where I would be. I feel this is m ore about safety, and respect, its not about control. I would expect the same in return.
I think it might help your daughter to know some more muslim sisters, then she will see how differently they live and this will help her find herself, apart from her fiancé.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Egyptmom, at this point I will agree with VB but there is nothing you can do about it now. Let her go off and do whatever and you wait and save up to get her home in 1 or 2 maybe even 3 years, perhaps less. Perhaps suggest she reads fatwa and Not without my Daughter and various other books like that, although it wont help your situation now. If she really thinks this is Islam then may Allah help her.
Sorry im a bit negative, I live here and I am negative right now!
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
good points pillar about meeting up with some muslim women maybe in her area.
I would be concerned if she were my daughter:( My husband would also not find this acceptable for his daughter either and he is an Egyptain Muslim man.
Good luck
I agree with Ayisha and get her to read and then read some more about what 'can' happen also read her own books about Islam not just what he recommends her read. Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
I disagree Ayisha, I think that 'Fatwa' and 'not without my daughter' give a very negative view of Islam and muslims in general, which is hardly likely to help her??
At the end of the day, its just two womens accounts of their lives and lets face it 'happy endings' dont sell books.
I know a muslim revert who moved to Iran and lived with her husband and raised a family quite happily in the 1980's, when 'not without my daughter' was written. Equally there are many Egyptian man married to reverts that are also living happily in Egypt. They just dont write books.
Posted by justvisiting (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Is this typical Muslim or Egyptian man behavior? My daughter is still in the U.S. but engaged to an Egytian man. She has to ask his permission to go somewhere after dark even though she is half way across the world from him. She thinks this is ok!!!!
If she thinks it's okay, then what's the problem?
Okay, I get it. You're her mom.
*finished trying to shed some humor on the subject*
I'm married to an Egyptian. If I'm out after dark, my mobile rings and he reminds me 'it's late." That's his code (rather, politely saying), "Look, this is Egypt and in Egypt women (usually) aren't out after dark because the neighbors might talk and we can't have the neighbors talking, can we?" His sisters had to be in the house by 10:00 until they got married.
When we first got married he tried to run that "You don't go outside without me" line. I wasn't having it and still won't. I have never and will never ask his permission to go anywhere. Most of the time he knows I've gone somewhere if he asks or if I think to tell him.
Is it a requirement of Islam? Ah, I'd say it's more a cultural application of the husband being one degree higher than the wife than anything.
Chances are he's only doing what he knows. And, really, if your daughter's okay with it ... she's okay with it.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*: I disagree Ayisha, I think that 'Fatwa' and 'not without my daughter' give a very negative view of Islam and muslims in general, which is hardly likely to help her??
With respect cat you dont live here and it might help her a lot, not to deal with her husband especially but the rest of the animals here.
Posted by Lumpy butt (Member # 15631) on :
Fatwa scared the crap out of me! and my mother, but it was a good book and definitely made me think twice about the different cultures etc.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
So you are both saying that 'Fatwa' is an accurate representation of Egyptian society?
Posted by Lumpy butt (Member # 15631) on :
I thought i said it scared the crap out of me and made me think twice about the different cultures.... Posted by Egyptmom (Member # 16445) on :
I ordered "Fatwa" - Sounds like the kind of book I don't need to read but I can't help myself!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*: So you are both saying that 'Fatwa' is an accurate representation of Egyptian society?
cant find anywhere I said that.
Egymom, it is set in the time quite a few years ago.
It is NOT what happens to every girl here
It DOES happen to some
Im having a bad week, ignore me please.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
No knowledge is wasted good or bad. It's like being a sponge soak up all information you can Posted by VanillaBullshit (Member # 10873) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: I liked the guy and his family when I met them in Egypt.
Still waters run deep.
In this case deeper than you can imagine.
Posted by ExptinCAI (Member # 1439) on :
Your husband should be talking to this young kid. If you don't have a husband, your brother should be calling him. If you don't have a brother, then any older-sounding relative that has been steady enough in your daughter's life to represent you as "the family."
Designate this male representative of your family and let your daughter communicate to her fiance that he must now deal with this male. Not only HIM, but that you refuse to discuss serious issues such as marriage with him directly, and demand to speak to his father or brother/uncle, etc.
Don't let language be a deterrent.
Be persistent.
If anything fishy is going on, the best thing you can do is play by their rules.
ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO RESPECTABLE CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD AN 18YR OLD KID GET ANGRY BECAUSE OF SOMETHING HIS FUTURE-MOTHER-IN-LAW SAID and VOICE this to his fiance.
Full stop.
He wouldn't dare treat an egyptian woman's family like this, so play by his rules.
Stop communicating via your daughter, or you directly and do it through a "representative"
Worse case scenario, your future family-in-law will think twice ordering your child around (and believe me, your daughter will soon find out the mother-in-law is god in egypt) and take your family as seriously as they would an egyptian one.
good luck
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Personally, I think she is too young to get married to any man. Especially to a controlling man and even more so to someone who is from a culture that she is pretty much clueless about.
This is her life we are talking about. She needs to get an education, and be able to support herself without depending on a man. Then if she still wants to marry him at least she would have a way out if things don't turn out as planned. I would say this to any girl her age regardless of who the man is...You just never know.
You should let her come on here and ask questions. Maybe someone can scare some sense into her.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
ExpinCAI made an excellent point. Egyptmom you need to play the game as the Egyptians are doing it. Negociations have to be handled through a male representative with him and his family. Request a hefty Mahr and Shabka otherwise there will be no way he will be able to marry your daughter.
Here read through this article about weddings in Egypt.
This young man needs to *earn* your daughter just like he would have to earn an Egyptian woman to marry.
Don't just give your daughter so readily away. Customs are so different in Egypt in regards to marriage. Make yourself knowledge and be demanding. Otherwise he will believe he can do anything with her. And he if can't come up with your demands he needs to wait to marry your daughter - many many young Egyptian men are in the very same situaton. The issue should resolve itself hopefully by then.
IMHO your daughter is too young to get married to anyone and I agree here with of_gold.
We had a woman from Tennessee on here before and her daughter was only 16 or 17 when she got married to her Egyptian boyfriend. Although they made a nice couple I still think it was the wrong thing to do. It didn't take long and he was able to come to the States and live here. Dunno what happened to them; I'd love to get an update.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Well I do agree that she is young to marry, but girls, dont you remember how you felt at 18?
We cant assume that because she is young that she is 'clueless about the culture' or needs some 'sense scaring into her' as of-Gold says.
She is an adult, at least her mum is by her side, but not covering her in cotton wool or assuming she doesn't know anything. I agree that maybe they could wait a bit longer, maybe a year at least, but at the end of the day, her daughter has her own life to live and has to make these decisions herself now.
I think that it would be better if the man she wants to marry came to America rather than her going to Egypt. At least at the beginning, then they could take things one step at a time, marriage first, then culture shocks...rather than all at once in a strange place, miles from her mum.
But, that wasn't the question I know, just giving my opinion Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Right, I read ExptinCai said and had to go back and read what egymom had said again.
ExptinCai is absolutely right, the mom here is god, they worship her!! NO WAY should he dismiss your concerns like that, NO WAY. He is not respecting you and that is a very BAD sign.
He has told the daughter its best to get married young in Islam, ok, but HERE IN EGYPT the men rarely marry before 30 and many are older than that purely because they cant AFFORD a wife.
Egymom, you need to find a male of your family, either her dad, brother, uncle, either one or preferably ALL of them. They must deal on her behalf and if he has anything to say about it this IS ISLAMIC.
You want to know how he will support her, where they will live, what would happen if she cant have kids as she WILL be expected to produce one in the first year, what will happen if he finds she is not a virgin, how much gold he is willing to give for HER, etc, etc. Sometimes here once they have found and agreed on a wife it still takes years to complete the wedding and for the man to get everything together to satisfy HER family.
#1 dodgy = they met online!! #2 dodgy = he controls her from thousands of miles away #3 dodgy = he is not taking seriously YOUR concerns #4 dodgy = he has made it clear she will stay in the house
Now number 4 she THINKS she can cope with but she will be climbing the walls after 3 months.
You also need to know will she have air con as not many Egyptians have this and she will not cope with temps over 50 degrees in summer without it.
You need to know he is making enough to provide medical help when shes sick...she WILL be sick and more often than she is back home.
I think your daughter has got carried away with the 'romance' of an eastern man wanting to whisk her off and 'protect' her. protection soon turns into controlling. This is not Ali Baba or Sinbad or 1001 nights this is real life!! He will control who she can be friends with even down to other muslimah, if he thinks they are not right for her then she will not be able to see them.
FFS read fatwa and make her read it.
get her to read about HER rights in Islam as she does have rights. Not that it makes much difference to here but at least she will KNOW hes NOT doing it right.
tell her to keep her passport with the embassy or consul or a bank or anything but do not hand it over to him!
Get her on HERE.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Wow, its scary reading your post Ayisha, but you did make some very good points, very practical points.
I must admit I had not read about him dismissing any concerns egymom has had, or about him saying she will be staying at home all the time. Thats not good, that would send anyone bonkers.
Posted by Hermione Heliotrope. (Member # 14248) on :
Excellent points by Ayisha, Tiger and ExptinCai.
Tattoo these ones on your brain Mom
1 ABSOLUTELY UNDER NO RESPECTABLE CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD AN 18YR OLD KID GET ANGRY BECAUSE OF SOMETHING HIS FUTURE-MOTHER-IN-LAW SAID and VOICE this to his fiance.
2 Designate this male representative of your family and let your daughter communicate to her fiance that he must now deal with this male. Not only HIM, but that you refuse to discuss serious issues such as marriage with him directly, and demand to speak to his father or brother/uncle, etc.
3 Request a hefty Mahr and Shabka otherwise there will be no way he will be able to marry your daughter.
4 ExptinCai is absolutely right, the mom here is god, they worship her!! NO WAY should he dismiss your concerns like that, NO WAY. He is not respecting you and that is a very BAD sign.
5 Egymom, you need to find a male of your family, either her dad, brother, uncle, either one or preferably ALL of them. They must deal on her behalf and if he has anything to say about it this IS ISLAMIC.
You and your daughter need to play this according to the Egyptian rule book, NOT the Western one!!!
This cannot be stressed enough!!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
cat this guy is controlling her from thousands of miles away, it is only going to be worse when shes here. He will want to know where she is and who with every single minute of the day and thats IF she is 'allowed' out, which I doubt she will be without a host of his family with her. She will be expected to cook and clean for his mum and any siblings. More like Cinderella than anything 'romantic' like Sinbad!!
Will he provide rehydration salts for her everyday? She WILL need them and will he have any idea what to do when she collapses for not taking them? Will he be sympathetic if she is man-handled by another man or will he beat **** out of her like in Fatwa, IT HAPPENS!! Will she be allowed to visit her family in USA or will he stop that as they are 'not muslim'.
On that note he could be telling her that because they are not muslim she has no duty to them, FALSE!! they are her parents and she has a duty to them!! paradise is at the feet of the MOTHER whatever the mothers religion is!!
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: This is not Ali Baba or Sinbad or 1001 nights this is real life!!
Can we have storytime now on this forum, Ayisha?? Pleeeeease!!! Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Good post Ayisha. Egyptmom, Ayisha is married to an Egyptian and lives in Egypt. I would listen to her. She has her head on straight, we don't worry about Ayisha.
Cat, I do remember, that is exactly why I am saying these things. I married young and to a controlling man...different religion, same idea as far as the woman being under the man. I cannot caution her strongly enough on here.
There are people who marry young and have a wonderful life together but she needs to know both sides of marriage and both sides of Islam so she can go in with her eyes open. IMO telling her only the good is not helping her.
Look, the girl is 18 and anytime her mother cautions her she runs and tells this man and tells her mom she is being negative. Not a good sign. Converting for a man is not a good sign either. Does she study Islam to know her own views or does she just adopt his? Six months is not enough time.
I think she should ask his views on female circumcision. (in case she has a baby daughter), his views on polygamy, if he will want her veiled; we already know that she can't go out alone and they are not even married yet. If she can travel without his permission. She needs to know the rights of women in Egypt.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Yes, you are both right. She should be careful and these things DO happen. Also, as you said 6 months is not long when you become a muslim.
Well, maybe mum can just try to convince her to stay in the US and he can come to her?
Well, I'm not sure what to advise really. The passport thing is a must and I dont think anyone should let go of their passport.
Honestly, I would be concerned too if it was my daughter wanting to go and live in Egypt with a man she hardly knew. So I would advise he come to her.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: My husband would also not find this acceptable for his daughter either and he is an Egyptain Muslim man.
I so strongly agree with this point EG Mom, you need to understand no Egyptian family would allow their daughter to do what you are allowing yours to do.
You are worried about her freedom once she is in Egypt but it is the so called freedom you are allowing your daughter that is going to ruin her life.
18 is far to young to be going off to a county she knows nothing about, this is just fantasy land for her at the moment.
If there is nothing you can do to stop her then at least insist on some very strong terms as Aisha has pointed out and if I were you that would include a demand that she is allowed to continue her education in Egypt. And guess what HER HUSBAND must pay for that.
Your daughter has rights so start negotiating them for her and really good luck to you this must be one hell of a worry for you.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
Look, the girl is 18 and anytime her mother cautions her she runs and tells this man and tells her mom she is being negative. Not a good sign. Converting for a man is not a good sign either. Does she study Islam to know her own views or does she just adopt his? Six months is not enough time.
I think she should ask his views on female circumcision. (in case she has a baby daughter), his views on polygamy, if he will want her veiled; we already know that she can't go out alone and they are not even married yet. If she can travel without his permission. She needs to know the rights of women in Egypt.
More good points.
Also when she married here she has a RIGHT to put whatever she wants in the contract of marriage, this is also Islamic. She can specify that any daughters are NOT cut, she can specify a trip home to USA each year, she can specify anything she wishes and she MUST do this if she intends marrying this man.
6 Months is nothing in converting. She needs to know EXACTLY his views on FGM, his views in her working or studying and so much more.
She also needs to study Islam MUCH MORE as there is Islam then there is Saudi Islam, pakistani Islam, Egyptian Islam and NONE are the same!! ALL interpret differently to suit THEM, THE MEN.
Does she know that here she can be abused while the abuser has the Quran playing in the background? It HAPPENS.
Does she know that here an Eid celebration can involve men chasing women in the streets to abuse them, It HAPPENS.
Does she know that even being covered from head to toe makes no difference to whether she will be abused or not? It HAPPENS
Does she know that being a white western woman is often taken as she will shag anything with a dick? It HAPPENS, even if she is covered up!
Your daughter knows NOTHING of this 'wonderful' culture and what happens on a day to day basis, the mindset of too many, how they will justify ANYTHING. She wont know until she lives here and that may be too late.
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
At aged 18 she is an adult and I know if I were her I would be offended my mother was talking about me and my life to a group of strangers.
I understand where you are coming from but would she? I am not having a dig at you I am just trying to magine how she would perceive this.
I would advise you don't treat her like she is either stupid or a child as you are more likely to push her into it.
I agree with Ayisha, unless you live here you really have no idea how life is on a day to day basis (also bearing in mind those of us who do live here differ in views as our lives can be so very different as well). I have seen many folk come here to see how life is and go back home, it isn't all beautiful sunsets and glorious weather. (well it is for me )
For the record when I was 18 I was livin in Egypt and had no problems whatsover with anything or anybody and to this day I still haven't.
If she is as I was at 18 she will do as she pleases, regardless. Just drill into her mind about her passport and ensure she has enough cash in the bank for a flight home if she wants to get out in a hurry.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Is this typical Muslim or Egyptian man behavior?
No. But then I've read women on here discussing the fact that their husbands don't like them to use make up when going out, even if they are thousands of miles away.
But hey -- if a woman mistakes control for "caring" and bizarre limitations for "religious obligations", there's really not much you can do.
quote:Egyptmom, at this point I will agree with VB but there is nothing you can do about it now. Let her go off and do whatever and you wait and save up to get her home in 1 or 2 maybe even 3 years, perhaps less.
I second that.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
more good points LF, I wouldnt have listened either.
Egymom, you have to play this one really carefully or you could send her into this depending on how you deal with it.
I thank God im not in your shoes.
Posted by justvisiting (Member # 14989) on :
I wouldn't want to be in her shoes, either. I'd be particularly concerned about what appears to be converting for a boyfriend then going to his country, marrying him, and living in his culture.
Egyptmom, I sent you a (rather blathering) PM. Take everything I've said, and what everyone else here has said, into thoughtful consideration.
Then approach your daughter with a "I've been doing some research, and did you know that in Egypt..." type of conversation.
IF she still insists on doing it, then you'll know you've done everything you can do to inform her.
Does anyone know where there's an Eglish version of the Egyptian marriage contract online?
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
This is a very worrying post. People should convert to islam because they believe Allah is God and Mohammed is his messenger... It is very sad when I read about woman coverting to islam because their partners want them to.. I converted to islam in 2005 I converted out of my own free will.No pressure from anyone and thats the way it is staying.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by marydot: This is a very worrying post. People should convert to islam because they believe Allah is God and Mohammed is his messenger... It is very sad when I read about woman coverting to islam because their partners want them to.. I converted to islam in 2005 I converted out of my own free will.No pressure from anyone and thats
the way it is staying.
Very disturbing,indeed.
....and in an almost rush, Express way Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
why is it disturbing?
Posted by cloudberry (Member # 11163) on :
ExptinCAI had good advice. Most Egyptian women don't want to marry their husbands without their parents' approval and one reason is that if they do so they might find themselves in a bad situation later on. Her husband might take advantage of the situation; he knows her parents are not fully behind her and the marriage so she can't so easily turn to her parents for help or comfort. He also might think that she doesn't respect her parents and so therefore why should he respect her.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by marydot: why is it disturbing?
In the quick,expedite way of converting to Islam the girl did.Such a rush decision.
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8:
quote:Originally posted by marydot: why is it disturbing?
In the quick,expedite way of converting to Islam the girl did.Such a rush decision.
Yes I agree it does sound like she made a rush decision, thats why i recommend no one should convert for anyone else.What happens if the realtionships ends will the girl still be in islam i doubt it very much!!! I think this girl is very influenced by this boy and this is a first warning bell. Islam is a religion where you give yourself to God and no one can come between that.
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
none should convert for a man.. i would never convert to islam for a man or for anyone...i would never change for a man in any ways shape or form...
Posted by The Ministry of Common Sense (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
Will he provide rehydration salts for her everyday? She WILL need them and will he have any idea what to do when she collapses for not taking them?
@ Ayisha: Could you please explain what you mean by this? I am married to an Egyptian and live in Egypt and he has never given me rehydration salts...I have never collapsed either.
I have read the previous posts and can't find any relevant discussion of hydration so perhaps I am missing something? You have been talking about the book Fatwa quite a bit, which I have not read, so perhaps it is something related to the book.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
No mini its nothing to do with fatwa. you may not suffer in the same way in Cairo as people do here in Luxor but for me personally, and many people I know here, I collapsed the first year I was here due to dehydration although I was drinking plenty of water. people dont understand how much water you need to drink in this heat and that not only are you losing fluids by sweating you are also losing salts your body needs.
Some symptoms are, headaches, vagueness, not thinking right, depression, pains or cramps in fingers, arms legs, toes, falling asleep anywhere, general loss of 'life'. During summer I have to use between 3 and 5 salt sachets a day.
When I had collapsed on the bed hubby had to break the front door to get to me as I heard nothing of him hammering on it, I was out for the count.
Posted by dolphin redsea (Member # 11209) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
Will he provide rehydration salts for her everyday? She WILL need them and will he have any idea what to do when she collapses for not taking them?
@ Ayisha: Could you please explain what you mean by this? I am married to an Egyptian and live in Egypt and he has never given me rehydration salts...I have never collapsed either.
I have read the previous posts and can't find any relevant discussion of hydration so perhaps I am missing something? You have been talking about the book Fatwa quite a bit, which I have not read, so perhaps it is something related to the book.
so you finally got married Sarah? congrats
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
huh? who is sarah?
Posted by Makbeta (Member # 14401) on :
quote:Originally posted by dolphin redsea:
quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
Will he provide rehydration salts for her everyday? She WILL need them and will he have any idea what to do when she collapses for not taking them?
@ Ayisha: Could you please explain what you mean by this? I am married to an Egyptian and live in Egypt and he has never given me rehydration salts...I have never collapsed either.
I have read the previous posts and can't find any relevant discussion of hydration so perhaps I am missing something? You have been talking about the book Fatwa quite a bit, which I have not read, so perhaps it is something related to the book.
so you finally got married Sarah? congrats
I just opened ES and saw this and I'm wondering too...
Posted by The Ministry of Common Sense (Member # 15597) on :
@ Ayisha: I have heard that it gets hotter in Luxor. You are right, I don't suffer that much in Cairo although you would think I should. I don't drink enough water and I consume several cups of coffee per day - caffiene has a dehydrating effect. I have been very lucky so far, I guess.
I hope you are coping better now. These lovely spring days we are having lately will soon disappear and turn into smothering heat. I am not looking forward to it.
Posted by The Ministry of Common Sense (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: huh? who is sarah?
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Who is Sarah - because it almost looked like that comment was directed toward me.
I know someone named Sarah, but I am not Sarah.
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
Ayisha, I suffered vagueness in the UK Posted by The Ministry of Common Sense (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: Ayisha, I suffered vagueness in the UK
Did you forget to take your medication again?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: Ayisha, I suffered vagueness in the UK
LF you suffer vagueness wherever you are love Posted by The Ministry of Common Sense (Member # 15597) on :
Did anyone figure out who Sarah is yet?
Posted by dolphin redsea (Member # 11209) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense: Did anyone figure out who Sarah is yet?
ahhhhhhhhhhh you. hows amr? Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
can someone fill the rest of us in, like switch a light on or something please?
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: can someone fill the rest of us in, like switch a light on or something please?
*handles Ayisha a long-life lightbulb*
Posted by Kalila : ) (Member # 14517) on :
quote:Originally posted by dolphin redsea:
quote:Originally posted by The Ministry of Common Sense: Did anyone figure out who Sarah is yet?
ahhhhhhhhhhh you. hows amr?
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
I can assure you Mini isn't Sarah... I have met Mini and Sarah and they are definately different people. Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
i wouldnt mind being controlled for a few hrs right now.. lol well my sister married a very controling man. and i asked her y dont u leave him he is fugly and always makes u do everything.. he treats her like a queen and is a very good father but he is more like a master.. her answer was... i like for him to be in controll he takes care of me and the kids. and i take care of him and the kids and the house.. i give him credit he works damn hard as a voluntteer firefighter and drives for a company.. he just bouth her a new home.. and all.. so i guess it pays to marry an ugly man.. my sister is so beautifull she could have any man she wants but she wants him....
Posted by The Ministry of Common Sense (Member # 15597) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lady Ferret: I can assure you Mini isn't Sarah... I have met Mini and Sarah and they are definately different people.
Thank you so much LF...I would have never been able to win that argument without your help.
I am NOT Sarah!
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: i wouldnt mind being controlled for a few hrs right now.. lol well my sister married a very controling man. and i asked her y dont u leave him he is fugly and always makes u do everything.. he treats her like a queen and is a very good father but he is more like a master.. her answer was... i like for him to be in controll he takes care of me and the kids. and i take care of him and the kids and the house.. i give him credit he works damn hard as a voluntteer firefighter and drives for a company.. he just bouth her a new home.. and all.. so i guess it pays to marry an ugly man.. my sister is so beautifull she could have any man she wants but she wants him....
Tina looks aren't everything, people fall in love for personality not looks.
Your post is a good example of how 'controlling' is really unique to every relationship. Your sister has said how she is happy with how they work out the roles in the family, so only YOUR perception of him is unhealthy. It doesn't mean that HE is unhealthy.
Too often people try to impose their values and desires onto everyone elses relationship. But personally I feel that if the two people in it are happy with how things are then where's the problem? Only in the person VIEWING the relationship.
Posted by unsure (Member # 12244) on :
Agree totally with u *Caterpillar*
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: i wouldnt mind being controlled for a few hrs right now.. lol well my sister married a very controling man. and i asked her y dont u leave him he is fugly and always makes u do everything.. he treats her like a queen and is a very good father but he is more like a master.. her answer was... i like for him to be in controll he takes care of me and the kids. and i take care of him and the kids and the house.. i give him credit he works damn hard as a voluntteer firefighter and drives for a company.. he just bouth her a new home.. and all.. so i guess it pays to marry an ugly man.. my sister is so beautifull she could have any man she wants but she wants him....
Tina looks aren't everything, people fall in love for personality not looks.
Your post is a good example of how 'controlling' is really unique to every relationship. Your sister has said how she is happy with how they work out the roles in the family, so only YOUR perception of him is unhealthy. It doesn't mean that HE is unhealthy.
Too often people try to impose their values and desires onto everyone elses relationship. But personally I feel that if the two people in it are happy with how things are then where's the problem? Only in the person VIEWING the relationship.
yes thats totally true...after 20 somethin yrs i dont tell her he is no good for her cas he really is...if we all had a husband that treated us as if we were queens and fragie parcles we would all be happy well at least some would be.. some people like being misriable in their lives... but i guess i am uncontrollable until maybe i find a man that i want to controll me i dont know hasnt happened yet...
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
Too often people try to impose their values and desires onto everyone elses relationship. But personally I feel that if the two people in it are happy with how things are then where's the problem? Only in the person VIEWING the relationship.
So very true!!
Posted by rashroush (Member # 15206) on :
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: i wouldnt mind being controlled for a few hrs right now.. lol well my sister married a very controling man. and i asked her y dont u leave him he is fugly and always makes u do everything.. he treats her like a queen and is a very good father but he is more like a master.. her answer was... i like for him to be in controll he takes care of me and the kids. and i take care of him and the kids and the house.. i give him credit he works damn hard as a voluntteer firefighter and drives for a company.. he just bouth her a new home.. and all.. so i guess it pays to marry an ugly man.. my sister is so beautifull she could have any man she wants but she wants him....
Tina I just wanted to add that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to judge a person based on looks is really shallow, and be careful, that sword is double-edged and might be turned on you.. People are human, and what attracts someone to one person, won't attract that person to another.
Obviously, your sister has a relationship that works for her and has for how many years now? She seems happy, her husband is obviously a very hard working individual and provides for her and her children. It could be much worse :-) [He could be unemployed, leeching off of her, abusive AND controlling... ]
Point is, it's very easy to see things one way from the outside, but your sister has something that works for her, according to her rule book, not yours, be happy for her. What affects or 'bothers' one person, won't bother the next....
Posted by alma37 (Member # 11314) on :
Fake, fake, fake, fake, fake!!!!!!
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
yes rash sometimes i am shallow.. we all are at a time or 2.. but i have come to respect him for taking such good care of my sister. to bad it took me 20 yrs to come to this conclusion..she loves him more than anything so who am i to say bad things to her.. i love her but i also think she is wise ..
Posted by rashroush (Member # 15206) on :
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: yes rash sometimes i am shallow.. we all are at a time or 2.. but i have come to respect him for taking such good care of my sister. to bad it took me 20 yrs to come to this conclusion..she loves him more than anything so who am i to say bad things to her.. i love her but i also think she is wise ..
That is good to hear that you think she is wise, so let her be happy in her relationship, alhumdulellah.
Posted by rashroush (Member # 15206) on :
quote:Originally posted by alma37: Fake, fake, fake, fake, fake!!!!!!
alma , who is fake? what are you referring to?
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
^^^^^^^^^^ @ fake
Egyptmom - Hope you are ok.
Just wanted to say that Expatin's (sp ) advice was SO true. You and your family HAVE to think like Egyptain familes. Read and re-read until it fully takes hold of your brain. That advice 'could' save alot of heartbreak. Remember that a marriage contract CAN have your daughters wishes on it under speical conditions - Able to travel alone and with children, no to multiple marriages etc. Make sure a male family member does all of the arranging and if possible visit him and his family.
NEVER let him disrespect you, NEVER! Even today my husband would never ever disrespect my mum never, even if i fall out with her, my husband tells me off! In all the years i have never seen my husband speak bad to his mother it is just unheard of. Any advice come back and ask there are many people here who can advise you. Take care.
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: ^^^^^^^^^^ @ fake
Egyptmom - Hope you are ok.
Just wanted to say that Expatin's (sp ) advice was SO true. You and your family HAVE to think like Egyptain familes. Read and re-read until it fully takes hold of your brain. That advice 'could' save alot of heartbreak. Remember that a marriage contract CAN have your daughters wishes on it under speical conditions - Able to travel alone and with children, no to multiple marriages etc. Make sure a male family member does all of the arranging and if possible visit him and his family.
NEVER let him disrespect you, NEVER! Even today my husband would never ever disrespect my mum never, even if i fall out with her, my husband tells me off! In all the years i have never seen my husband speak bad to his mother it is just unheard of. Any advice come back and ask there are many people here who can advise you. Take care.
that is so true..girl never talk sh it about an egyptian mans mama... once walid and mohmed went to the post office to get the mail i sent him.. and they were walking across the street. well this car almost hit mohmed.and they driver said f. yr mama.. girl walid took a bottle of perfume and cracked that man in the head.. and fuced him up .. the man wound up in th hospital and walid was so scared he was goin to jail.. but nothin ever came of it.. moral of the story.. dont talk **** about noones mama...
dont let yr ass overload yr mouth..
Posted by Egyptmom (Member # 16445) on :
Thank you all for your advice. First of all I'm divorced and my ex is an idiot and doesn't care what happens to his daughter. We have no other close male relatives to handle this for us. It is up to me to protect my daughter best I can.
I understand what you are saying about dealing with a male dominated culture and they maybe don't take us women seriously. I don't know how I can discuss this with his father or uncle (he has no brothers) as they don't speak english.
My daughter is the other problem. She is a Western woman and is fine with supporting her husband if she needs to (temporarily). He is currently in college so has been living with his mom and has no job. Let me be clear though - he has not EVER asked her for money and I don't think he will take it from her.
We are working on a Visa for him to come to the U.S. but it looks like it takes about 6 months at least and I don't know if she will be patient enough to wait for him to come here.
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
egyptmom what ever yall do good luck in yr decisions.....i wish the best for yr daughter and him.. hopefully he is a good boy.. and will treat her good in the long run.. after all she does have to to protect her right....
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
Did you ever talk with your daughter about how she is seeing her own future? Her fiancé is young, still on college, so he has no income. Your daughter herself is 18, has an income in the USA (?) but won't have one when she decides to live in Egypt.
1st. When living in Egypt, who is going to make money, and is he able to provide enough money for that? He has to rent or buy an appartment, furniture, food, expenses etc. Unemployment is high, salaries are low.
2nd. When he coming to the US; would he get a visa? And as soon as that's arranged, who is going to provide money for that? She has to rent or buy an appartment, furniture, food, expenses etc. She is 18, so her salary won't be high. Is she able to do that, and for how long?
3rd. What is he going to do in the US? He does not speak the language, he doesn't have enough education to get a job that is going along with his Egyptian educational level, so would he be prepared to do the low payed jobs he probably can get?
4rd. Both of you are not able to communicate with his family, so they are not speaking English and both of you are not able to make any imagenation on what social class they are representing, on what type of life she should get there. Doesn't that makes her scared? Didn't you ask her what she should do when things are not going well?
Everything can be discussed, and be prepared for. Most people are expecting a negative outcome, regarding his attitude to her and to you. Your daughter does not have such worse expectations, of course, so you disagree in that. But both of you can still talk seriously about the practical matters...it won't harm anybody, and at least she will feel that her mother cares, and that she can go back if needed.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
As she is 18, the best way to approach this is to not come across as being to negative. Make it seem like you are just interested: "Well, if this is going to be your life, I would like to learn more about it to understand". Get her to help you research both quran and Egyptian culture, this will mean she will be learning with you, instead of getting all her information from her fiancé. Has she read the quran, start to finish? Or is she just getting the information from him? Encouraging her to read it more, under the disguise of it being for your benefit, will get her to think more independently about the religion. Also, as she expects to live like a good little egyptian/muslim girl in egypt, tell her she should start at home. And that means not showing any disrespect to you. If anyone has the quran passages that give mothers high regard, it would be helpful posting them (I'm pretty sure I read some, but would never be able to find them). As others have said, many Egyptians wouldn't want to marry without their parents approval, and they would not argue with them about it! Does you daughter cook? If she wants to play the traditional Egyptian wife role, then she needs to know how to cook from ingredients, not just reheat something in the oven. She should be practising her "duties" now, to see if she is really prepared. So encourage her to go out and buy ingredients and make breakfast and dinner (get same Egyptian recipes online). It is easy saying "I will do this that and the other when I am there" but actually living it will be much different. So it is best to be as prepared as possible. Now, there are some conversations you must urge her to have with her fiancé. Female genital mutilation, for example. Make sure she asks his opinions on it- although in recent years it has become less popular, it still happens. Other wives is another one. Muslim men are allowed up to four, this is also not extremely common, but it happens. It is not rude of her to demand certain things in the contract, it would be expected of an Egyptian woman to do so, so it is the same for her. As someone else mentioned, she should definitely put in being allowed to travel with children, not needing his permission. The last thing she will want is to be stranded in egypt if things go wrong.
Just make sure she knows that whatever happens, you will be there for her, and she should never be ashamed to tell you of any problems, and you will not give the "I told you so's". Also, make sure she knows if she ever needs to leave the country, you will do everything you can to help and support her.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Good advice has been given Egymum. Although I do think for your daughter to fully understand Islam or the Quran will be a lifelong journey, so I'm not sure that she will be able to do this in a short time.
IF they only have to wait 6 months for a visa that is not long at all, I think that is the best idea.
WK mentioned cooking Egyptian food. LOL, well, this is no easy task either. I am quite a good cook and MY GOD you have never known so many pots and pans on the go at the same time LOL.
At the end of the day, its a journey, HER journey. As others have said, just be there for her, if she wants to go, she will go. But she can always come back home. As a mum you would be worried if she moved anywhere, even if it was in Europe, another country is another country, but as a new muslimah in a male dominated muslim society she may find things a lot different to what she is used to, as you know.
Does she wear hijab? How practising is she in her religion?
Posted by Egyptmom (Member # 16445) on :
She does wear hijab and has been attending mosque every Friday, goes to a women's group to learn more about Islam and prays 5 times a day. She is definitely taking it seriously. She did get into a little trouble when in Egypt though as she wanted to go to mosque to pray and her fiance told her women pray at home. (He did take her a few times though)
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: she wanted to go to mosque to pray and her fiance told her women pray at home.
Oh dear ... Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
I hope she enjoyed those few times... Sounds like her outings will be few and far between. Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: she wanted to go to mosque to pray and her fiance told her women pray at home.
Oh dear ...
Ditto Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I hope she enjoyed those few times... Sounds like her outings will be few and far between.
....or maybe even locked at home Posted by justvisiting (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by young at heart:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: she wanted to go to mosque to pray and her fiance told her women pray at home.
Oh dear ...
Ditto
Word.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
But isn't it custom that most of the time, women pray at home? There even seems to be something with deserving points, when a woman is a housewife, she directly is dismissed from visiting the mosque, because housekeeping is considered as highly important? I did hear such a thing in another islamic country, but don't know the details...
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
I do know here in the UK there are lots of mosques that do not allow women. My husband feels that this is wrong and that women are allowed in the mosque.
I must admit i have only seen my MIL go to the mosque maybe twice, so maybe there is something in it that this guy thinks she should pray at home. Just playing devils advocate Posted by Momma_Dukes (Member # 14252) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Is this typical Muslim or Egyptian man behavior? My daughter is still in the U.S. but engaged to an Egytian man. She has to ask his permission to go somewhere after dark even though she is half way across the world from him. She thinks this is ok!!!!
i got married to my egyptian ex when i was 18. controlling wasnt even the word.
im 29 now and divorced him because after the marriage, he began the beating.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: I do know here in the UK there are lots of mosques that do not allow women.
I must admit i have only seen my MIL go to the mosque maybe twice, so maybe there is something in it that this guy thinks she should pray at home. Just playing devils advocate
Right, pray at home, exercise at home, stay at home. Some women never want to leave the house without their husband. I'm sure she feels so loved. Remember what it is like to be 18 and have the attention of a man. .
How long do you figure it will take till she wants to do something on her own? I say by the time she is 25. She should have a couple of kids anyway by then.
Where is the thread of the British lady who married an Egyptian and they lived in Dubi?
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by ?????: But isn't it custom that most of the time, women pray at home? There even seems to be something with deserving points, when a woman is a housewife, she directly is dismissed from visiting the mosque, because housekeeping is considered as highly important? I did hear such a thing in another islamic country, but don't know the details...
Well its not only custom, its easier. Women dont HAVE to go to the mosque to pray, but they can if they want. Its quite nice not to have that burden for friday prayer tbh. At the end of the day its practical for many women, alot of women have children and wouldnt necessarily want to be dragging them to the mosque.
I think the reason there are not as many mosques in the UK that have sections for women is due to the muslims that have been in the country for so many years. Asian families are very 'traditional' and women usually do spend a great deal of time at home. Most of the Muslims in the UK have been asian.
In more recent years when the younger generation have become more knowledgeable in Islam, the mosques have started to cater for women also. Not all, but a lot do, but old habits die hard.
Remember that unless enough women are attending the mosque regularly they may not feel its worth funding a separate section for women. I know that in mosques that do have facilities for women you still will only get a handful for Juma prayer and next to nobody in the week.
Posted by kentuckyD (Member # 13076) on :
Here is an update Tiger, My daughter is still happily married for 2 years now. She is 18. He got to the states last year and they had a wedding party here when he came. He adjusted very well in small town usa. He is a hard hard worker, works 2 jobs and goes to college. He is more protective than controlling really. She attends highschool dances with her girlfriends.. he doesnt go as he dont dance. But she goes with friends that he met and is comfortable with her being with. They just went to Egypt and at this very moment they are landing in Ohio in about 1 hr. My daughter loved it there, his family loves her and she was the one not wanting to leave Egypt, she cried and cried. They treat her like a princess there. He likes the fact that he is making his own way and has his own car and supporting her. He is 23 years old. She graduates this year. He is very sweet to her. Yes , he is jealous, and doesnt like to be embarrassed and attention drawn to him. She is jealous too. When she has girlfriends around he doesnt join in conversation with them as he doesnt want her to think he is flirting in any way so he acts as he wants her to act around guys im sure. So they both respect each other. He is muslim, she stayed christian and goes to a christian school. They stopped debating religion a long time ago and just accept each others right to religion. They have culture clashes every now and then but not bad. They fight less than me and my man, so I guess they are doing better than me. HaHa.
Posted by malak (Member # 3654) on :
I work n ALrehab area and the women I work with and also my family go to the Mosque whenever they want. Its not a closed thing to men and they do have prayer areas for women. On Friday's especially the womens area is very busy. Its like a big WI meeting when everyone comes out. I say its each person's preference.
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
quote:Originally posted by kentuckyD: Here is an update Tiger, My daughter is still happily married for 2 years now. She is 18. He got to the states last year and they had a wedding party here when he came. He adjusted very well in small town usa. He is a hard hard worker, works 2 jobs and goes to college. He is more protective than controlling really. She attends highschool dances with her girlfriends.. he doesnt go as he dont dance. But she goes with friends that he met and is comfortable with her being with. They just went to Egypt and at this very moment they are landing in Ohio in about 1 hr. My daughter loved it there, his family loves her and she was the one not wanting to leave Egypt, she cried and cried. They treat her like a princess there. He likes the fact that he is making his own way and has his own car and supporting her. He is 23 years old. She graduates this year. He is very sweet to her. Yes , he is jealous, and doesnt like to be embarrassed and attention drawn to him. She is jealous too. When she has girlfriends around he doesnt join in conversation with them as he doesnt want her to think he is flirting in any way so he acts as he wants her to act around guys im sure. So they both respect each other. He is muslim, she stayed christian and goes to a christian school. They stopped debating religion a long time ago and just accept each others right to religion. They have culture clashes every now and then but not bad. They fight less than me and my man, so I guess they are doing better than me. HaHa.
that is very nice.. i wish the best for them and yall...
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by ?????: But isn't it custom that most of the time, women pray at home?
It's custom but it's wrong. The Qur'an tells the believers -- which includes men as well as women -- to go to prayer in congregation.
Anyone who has seriously prayed, meditated or followed a similar practice knows that there is a difference in energy whether you do it on your own or in a group. So personally I believe that congregational prayer is about benefitting from that sort of energy -- not about scoring points with God or being seen by your neighbours.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
Are the Egyptians into that point-syste also, or should it be related to the country? I never heard about it anywhere else. Yeah sure, customs are not always right, but I think that's nothing new...
Posted by unsure (Member # 12244) on :
That is good to read KentuckyD. Wish them the best success.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by ?????: Are the Egyptians into that point-syste also, or should it be related to the country? I never heard about it anywhere else.
I really don't know since my Egyptian Muslim friends are not into that at all, but then I don't know how representative their opinions are. Most people I know who are into the points-for-paradise system are converts. Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by ?????: Are the Egyptians into that point-syste also, or should it be related to the country? I never heard about it anywhere else.
I really don't know since my Egyptian Muslim friends are not into that at all, but then I don't know how representative their opinions are. Most people I know who are into the points-for-paradise system are converts.
Well I dont think it has anything to do with converts. They are just as much muslim as any born muslim and people shouldn't judge them because they are converts imo. Incidentally I know born muslims who are like you describe, so maybe its just about different types of people, regardless of whether they are born muslims or reverts
Egymum - sounds like your daughter is practicing very much, and also has muslim friends. Perhaps we are all underestimating her own judgement.
Kentucky - glad to hear your daughter and hubby are well Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
quote:Originally posted by kentuckyD: Here is an update Tiger, My daughter is still happily married for 2 years now. She is 18. He got to the states last year and they had a wedding party here when he came. He adjusted very well in small town usa. He is a hard hard worker, works 2 jobs and goes to college. He is more protective than controlling really. She attends highschool dances with her girlfriends.. he doesnt go as he dont dance. But she goes with friends that he met and is comfortable with her being with. They just went to Egypt and at this very moment they are landing in Ohio in about 1 hr. My daughter loved it there, his family loves her and she was the one not wanting to leave Egypt, she cried and cried. They treat her like a princess there. He likes the fact that he is making his own way and has his own car and supporting her. He is 23 years old. She graduates this year. He is very sweet to her. Yes , he is jealous, and doesnt like to be embarrassed and attention drawn to him. She is jealous too. When she has girlfriends around he doesnt join in conversation with them as he doesnt want her to think he is flirting in any way so he acts as he wants her to act around guys im sure. So they both respect each other. He is muslim, she stayed christian and goes to a christian school. They stopped debating religion a long time ago and just accept each others right to religion. They have culture clashes every now and then but not bad. They fight less than me and my man, so I guess they are doing better than me. HaHa.
Hello, kentuckyD!! Great to hear back from you. Well the first year of marriage is always the hardest and considering that he changed locations and had to adapt to Western culture - MABROUK to both of them. I certainly hope it will stay this way. I wish your daugher and son-in-law only the best.
PS: I had to take a look again at the wedding pic - and yes they looked lovely together.
Posted by LiveItUp (Member # 4811) on :
I think it's great the mother is concerned and do always trust your gut feeling.. Headstrong, in love, infatuated, ready to take on the world for love at her age one must step in to protect, advise ask the questions. I think all these posts tell it all. Maybe her friends at home can talk to her, have her go out and met men in her same world....If you advise she gets on here and have already gotten her some literature and talks then you've done all you can. Last straw maybe you can bring her here again for a longer visit and really research what life would be like. It is questionable about meeting him on internet and him being so possesive already from afar. Marriage is hard enough without all the culture, religion differences. It is hard to adjust to the life in Egypt!
Posted by justvisiting (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: I understand what you are saying about dealing with a male dominated culture and they maybe don't take us women seriously.
That's only part of it. The other part of it is because they are both Muslim and she has never been married she will HAVE TO have a male guardian represent her for her marriage contract. That's the law. You have a decision to make: either you find that male guardian or let his family do it. Ask yourself which choice is the wisest.
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: I don't know how I can discuss this with his father or uncle (he has no brothers) as they don't speak english.
Then pay a disinterested third party to translate.
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: My daughter is the other problem. She is a Western woman and is fine with supporting her husband if she needs to (temporarily).
*waving a red flag*
This is not cool - on his part. Not cool at all.
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: He is currently in college so has been living with his mom and has no job.
This only makes him ORDINARY.
College is not unusual. Believe it or not, this is a very educated country. Granted, the education they get, for the most part, is crap, but they're still educated.
Egyptians live with their parents until they get married. That means if they're 50 when they get married, they live with their parents until they're 50.
Being jobless in Egypt is not unusual. In fact, even after he finishes college unemployment is likely.
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Let me be clear though - he has not EVER asked her for money and I don't think he will take it from her.
Really? Who's paying for the airfare and the visa costs? Okay, so he may not be taking it out of her hands, but he's getting her money other ways.
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: We are working on a Visa for him to come to the U.S. but it looks like it takes about 6 months at least and I don't know if she will be patient enough to wait for him to come here.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
We have a winner!
Oh, Egyptmom, I feel so bad for you. I truly do.
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
Part of his duty as a husband is to be able to provide for his wife. If he is still in college and has no job how is he supposed to do this?
He shouldn't be even thinking of marriage yet. I am not saying that they can not have a relationship on online and learn alot about eachother but marriage no, no.
Take care
Posted by justvisiting (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: Part of his duty as a husband is to be able to provide for his wife. If he is still in college and has no job how is he supposed to do this?
Scenario 1) She moves to Egypt, stays in the home, while he finishes college and, ideally, gets a job to support her. Then they'll continue to stay in his mother's (where's his dad?) home because he won't be able to buy an apartment.
Outlook: Doomed.
Scenario 2) He drops out of college and moves to the west on a fiance visa. He then assumes whatever job he can get in a horrible economy (which is why we're STILL in Egypt), if he can get a job in a horrible economy with part of an Egyptian education and what is certainly less than stellar langauge skills. Busboy? Cab driver? Those are his career prospects for the short term. Regardless, he won't be able to work until after they're married and all of his paperwork is in order ($$$$$$$$$$$), so someone's going to have to support him until then.
Outlook: Doomed
Scenario 3) They both decide to WAIT until they do what they're supposed to do, like all responsible adults do, and wait to get married until they're properly able to do so.
Outlook: Sunshine and blue skies.
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: He shouldn't be even thinking of marriage yet. I am not saying that they can not have a relationship on online and learn alot about eachother but marriage no, no.
Nope. If he was looking at an Egyptian girl at this stage of his life, with what he doesn't have to offer, she wouldn't give him the time of day. Her family wouldn't let him in the house to propose. He knows this.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by justvisiting:
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: Part of his duty as a husband is to be able to provide for his wife. If he is still in college and has no job how is he supposed to do this?
Scenario 1) She moves to Egypt, stays in the home, while he finishes college and, ideally, gets a job to support her. Then they'll continue to stay in his mother's (where's his dad?) home because he won't be able to buy an apartment.
Outlook: Doomed.
Scenario 2) He drops out of college and moves to the west on a fiance visa. He then assumes whatever job he can get in a horrible economy (which is why we're STILL in Egypt), if he can get a job in a horrible economy with part of an Egyptian education and what is certainly less than stellar langauge skills. Busboy? Cab driver? Those are his career prospects for the short term. Regardless, he won't be able to work until after they're married and all of his paperwork is in order ($$$$$$$$$$$), so someone's going to have to support him until then.
Outlook: Doomed
Scenario 3) They both decide to WAIT until they do what they're supposed to do, like all responsible adults do, and wait to get married until they're properly able to do so.
Outlook: Sunshine and blue skies.
quote:Originally posted by happybunny: He shouldn't be even thinking of marriage yet. I am not saying that they can not have a relationship on online and learn alot about eachother but marriage no, no.
Nope. If he was looking at an Egyptian girl at this stage of his life, with what he doesn't have to offer, she wouldn't give him the time of day. Her family wouldn't let him in the house to propose. He knows this.
Great stuff ladies...real life rules There you have it EG Mom... so just close your purse and let them get on with it.
Posted by gweilchambyth (Member # 16005) on :
Egymom,
Every relationship has its negatives and positives. Although I am older than her, I am in a similar position to your daughter in that I am considering marriage to an Egyptian man, and have converted to Islam and this past year has been a period of huge adjustments on the part of both of us. I still feel sometimes that there's been more compromise on my part than his, but he also has been very good to me and supported me both emotionally and financially.
I feel very secure in my relationship, but even so I can't help but feel nervous about our different ways of doing things at first and going through with this means trusting in ALLAH and months and months of Salat il-Istikhara. I have the advantage of being able to read and write Arabic and speak 3amiyya, so this really helped because I could talk to his friends, colleagues and relatives and get a fuller picture of his life, not only what he told me.
These are some things that I know I couldn't have felt comfortable without:
1. An undertaking on his part to financially support me completely in accordance with the teachings of Islam.
2. Meeting his family and having a good relationship with them, and long chats with his mother in particular away from him.
3. Meeting him, and having spent a few months in Egypt with him getting to know how he is on a day-to-day basis. Everyone has their flaws and you need to know these BEFORE you marry, especially in Egypt where for a woman married life is focused around the home and husband. If you can't stand the person you're going to have to obey and don't agree on things like work, friends and going out, there's going to be conflict.
4. Making friends with some Egyptian women both within and outside the family. If this is at all possible for her, it would be great because they're a brilliant source of advice and comfort when things are perplexing and falling down around you.
5. His being prepared for marriage, in that he has a flat prepared and ready to move into, except for furniture, and has money for mahr so that at least she has some security. I'm not in the "always have American Airlines on speed dial" camp, but it pays to be prepared for life alone within or without Egypt. Becoming a widow isn't easy either.
6. Feeling that he loves me and knowing that he goes to huge lengths to protect me and my honour even when he's furious at me. I know this one might seem weird, but it's a biggie.
Like I say, every relationship is different, and your daughter's situation may be completely different from mine and not all these considerations may apply. I don't mean by this post to say that my relationship is perfect: we all have our issues and only ALLAH sobhana wa ta3ala knows the future. These were just some of the things that make me feel comfortable about my situation. One thing I would say though, and I'm not sure how one would broach this, but the most important thing is for your daughter to separate her Islam from her relationship with this man. This can be easier than it seems, but sobhan ALLAH she has been led to Islam and it seems to be making her happy. Islam is a way that is enough by itself. She does not *need* this man, and if ALLAH wills marriage to him for her then insha'ALLAH it will happen. I really advise her as her sister in Islam to perform Salat al Istakhara every day to ask for ALLAH's help in showing her the path that HE wants for her as this has helped me so much to have patience and faith that everything will be fine. When you are in love it is easy to get lost in it and not be able to see the wider picture and what is truly in our interest, so we must trust ALLAH sobhana wa ta3ala to help show us the way.
If you have any questions about Islam, or indeed any other topic, feel free to PM me. I am no expert but I'm happy to share what knowledge I have.
G
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
My favorite part -> "have to obey". Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: My favorite part -> "have to obey".
LOL some people don't realise it's the 21st century...the day I obey any man is the day I do without one But the rest of G's post was very good and excellent advice.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
quote: If you can't stand the person you're going to have to obey and don't agree on things like work, friends and going out, there's going to be conflict.
Argh- jump and how high come into mind. I have yet to hear any good argument as to why a woman would need to obey a man. I'm a fan of equality, and if one person needs to obey another, than there is an authority shift. And to me, that makes a woman the lesser being.
As other people have said, few Egyptian parents would want their daughters marrying someone who is not yet in a position to support them. This is why youngsters there often get secret orfis, or wait until older to get married. Obviously to us we think money isn't everything, but it is very important there, and the husband has his own duties that he must provide.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by gweilchambyth: Egymom,
Every relationship has its negatives and positives. Although I am older than her, I am in a similar position to your daughter in that I am considering marriage to an Egyptian man, and have converted to Islam and this past year has been a period of huge adjustments on the part of both of us. I still feel sometimes that there's been more compromise on my part than his, but he also has been very good to me and supported me both emotionally and financially.
I feel very secure in my relationship, but even so I can't help but feel nervous about our different ways of doing things at first and going through with this means trusting in ALLAH and months and months of Salat il-Istikhara. I have the advantage of being able to read and write Arabic and speak 3amiyya, so this really helped because I could talk to his friends, colleagues and relatives and get a fuller picture of his life, not only what he told me.
These are some things that I know I couldn't have felt comfortable without:
1. An undertaking on his part to financially support me completely in accordance with the teachings of Islam.
2. Meeting his family and having a good relationship with them, and long chats with his mother in particular away from him.
3. Meeting him, and having spent a few months in Egypt with him getting to know how he is on a day-to-day basis. Everyone has their flaws and you need to know these BEFORE you marry, especially in Egypt where for a woman married life is focused around the home and husband. If you can't stand the person you're going to have to obey and don't agree on things like work, friends and going out, there's going to be conflict.
4. Making friends with some Egyptian women both within and outside the family. If this is at all possible for her, it would be great because they're a brilliant source of advice and comfort when things are perplexing and falling down around you.
5. His being prepared for marriage, in that he has a flat prepared and ready to move into, except for furniture, and has money for mahr so that at least she has some security. I'm not in the "always have American Airlines on speed dial" camp, but it pays to be prepared for life alone within or without Egypt. Becoming a widow isn't easy either.
6. Feeling that he loves me and knowing that he goes to huge lengths to protect me and my honour even when he's furious at me. I know this one might seem weird, but it's a biggie.
Like I say, every relationship is different, and your daughter's situation may be completely different from mine and not all these considerations may apply. I don't mean by this post to say that my relationship is perfect: we all have our issues and only ALLAH sobhana wa ta3ala knows the future. These were just some of the things that make me feel comfortable about my situation. One thing I would say though, and I'm not sure how one would broach this, but the most important thing is for your daughter to separate her Islam from her relationship with this man. This can be easier than it seems, but sobhan ALLAH she has been led to Islam and it seems to be making her happy. Islam is a way that is enough by itself. She does not *need* this man, and if ALLAH wills marriage to him for her then insha'ALLAH it will happen. I really advise her as her sister in Islam to perform Salat al Istakhara every day to ask for ALLAH's help in showing her the path that HE wants for her as this has helped me so much to have patience and faith that everything will be fine. When you are in love it is easy to get lost in it and not be able to see the wider picture and what is truly in our interest, so we must trust ALLAH sobhana wa ta3ala to help show us the way.
If you have any questions about Islam, or indeed any other topic, feel free to PM me. I am no expert but I'm happy to share what knowledge I have.
G
A nice Islamic perspective.
And to the other ladies stuck on 'Obey'. A good husband would never want to make his wife unhappy, therefore he would not ask her to do anything unreasonable. If he does then he would have done anyway, without this.
Part of being non judgemental is not making people feel bad about the way that THEY live, even if its different to your idea of happiness.
If a woman is happy to Obey her husband then I dont see the problem. Remember its only a problem for you, not her. So it doesn't mean its 'wrong'.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
This is key -> "A good husband".
What is your definition of good? A husband might consider his actions as being a good husband when the wife may not.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
quote: If a woman is happy to Obey her husband then I dont see the problem. Remember its only a problem for you, not her. So it doesn't mean its 'wrong'.
Can you please point me to where anyone said "it's wrong for anyone to obey even if they are happy with it"? So far, all I'm reading is penny and I have made our answers about our personal opinion, and Of_gold just rolled her eyes. In fact, the only person making "obey" a general thing was the person who posted about it: "If you can't stand the person you're going to have to obey and don't agree on things like work, friends and going out, there's going to be conflict". She doesn't say- I chose to obey, she says: "the person YOU'RE going to have to obey".
quote: And to the other ladies stuck on 'Obey'. A good husband would never want to make his wife unhappy, therefore he would not ask her to do anything unreasonable. If he does then he would have done anyway, without this.
So why do you need the word obey? And if that is what you wish obey to mean, then isn't it both ways? Both the husband AND the wife can ask the other to do something. Obey means if asked, you have to.. well... obey. Why should the man get that authority over the woman? And if she needs to obey him, then why doesn't he need to obey her? I don’t mind if a person wants to obey, be a slave, dance around naked, whatever, and visa versa, if that is what he/she wants- but that doesn’t mean I can’t have an opinion on it. I would frown just as much if someone said a man must obey his wife. Like I said, I’m all for equality, but not everyone needs to agree with that.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
quote: What is your definition of good? A husband might consider his actions as being a good husband when the wife may not.
Good point! And if this was the case, does that mean the woman still has to obey, even though she doesn't agree with it? I don't understand why the man should have the authority over a woman, as if we are some clueless creatures who needs a man's guidance!
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Well I cant help thinking that you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing Of-Gold. But if you really NEED me to tell you.
A definition of 'good' would be to treat a person kindly and fairly, and make their partner happy. But of course its relative. So Good would be whatever the wife considered good.
So whats your point? That a good husband would WANT to make a wife unhappy? That what defines a husband as good is subjective?
Well... a GOOD husband wouldn't want to make the wife unhappy - simple statement, not subjective...since we could not state 'a good husband would WANT to make his wife unhappy.'
If a husband considers his actions 'good' but his wife is in the corner crying, does that make him a 'good' husband? NO. Does it therefore matter whether he considers himself 'good' or not? He might consider himself an adonis but it doesn't make it true.
So no, I disagree, 'Good' is not subjective in this case.
quote: What is your definition of good? A husband might consider his actions as being a good husband when the wife may not.
Good point! And if this was the case, does that mean the woman still has to obey, even though she doesn't agree with it? I don't understand why the man should have the authority over a woman, as if we are some clueless creatures who needs a man's guidance!
Who says she doesn't agree with it? Just because thats not how YOU want to live, and YOU wouldn't agree with it doesn't mean its wrong.
Also, if she doesn't agree with it, then why marry him in the first place? Because clearly they share different values.
People live very differently in relationships, that doesn't make one right and the other wrong, if the people IN it are happy.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty:
quote: If a woman is happy to Obey her husband then I dont see the problem. Remember its only a problem for you, not her. So it doesn't mean its 'wrong'.
Can you please point me to where anyone said "it's wrong for anyone to obey even if they are happy with it"? So far, all I'm reading is penny and I have made our answers about our personal opinion, and Of_gold just rolled her eyes. In fact, the only person making "obey" a general thing was the person who posted about it: "If you can't stand the person you're going to have to obey and don't agree on things like work, friends and going out, there's going to be conflict". She doesn't say- I chose to obey, she says: "the person YOU'RE going to have to obey".
OK, you want me to spell it out:
Of-Gold - My favorite part -> "have to obey".
This implies that there is something wrong with this part does it not?
Weird kitty - Argh- jump and how high come into mind.
This implies that the woman does not have a mind of her own if she choses to 'obey' her husband in some matters.
Penny - LOL some people don't realise it's the 21st century
This implies that the woman is somehow defective and stuck in the past, and that no self respecting woman would chose this way of life in the '21st Century'
All of these comments imply that YOUR way of life and YOUR way of doing things are superior to someone else's choices. THAT is judgemental and THAT is not just giving opinion.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
I think you are missing the point cat. We wasn't talking about a certain person, we are talking in general. If A wife (any wife, whoever the wife might be) doesn't consider a husband to be good, but the husband does, who is right? No one here is saying people have to live one way or another. You said "good" husband, and of_gold was pointing out the flaw in that. I'm sure some women are happy to obey their husbands, and I certainly know my dad obeys my mum if he knows what's good for him, haha- however, we are saying we personally don't agree with that. We are allowed to personally think that. ONLY the woman who brought up obeying made it about another person: "The person YOU'RE going to have to obey". Now, I twist this- why just because she (may) choose to obey, mean someone else is going to have to obey?
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
Because WK in Islamic marriages there are times when a woman DOES have to obey her husband. This is where 'Good' comes into it.
You cant take it out of Islamic marriages because its there, it exists. But as with everything in Islam, you have to understand things in the wider context.
For instance. A man should treat his wife with kindness, this is Islamic too. So yes she may obey him, but if he is treating her with kindness then he is not going to ask her to do something that will make her unhappy is he?
We cant be selective (although of course many people are, in reality).
Of course what is good is defined by what is good for HER, but also generally we have an idea what makes a person 'good', so we dont need to split hairs about that do we?
Also in Islam, it explains that if a couple need to divorce then they should do so in peace. That even though they may find things in each other they don't like, that doesn't mean they are bad people. All it means is that the characteristics in that person are not suited to the other person.
In addition, the characteristic in the husband/wife may not be perfect but maybe they are good for us. I dont like getting up and going to work every day, but its good for me.
Sometimes things that seem bad are not bad. Having a husband taking control of some matters is not necessarily a bad thing, although to you it may seem so.
I know we are not talking about a specific person.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote: Well I cant help thinking that you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing Of-Gold. But if you really NEED me to tell you.
Actually, I am disagreeing because I have experienced it.
Yes, good is subjective. For instance, I think it is good to look into a persons eyes and shake their hand whether they are male or female. Some think it is bad to look into a mans eyes and shake his hand if you are female.
Then if you add religion into the mix the husband may feel he is doing "good" on some religious grounds.
There is also a huge difference between "have to" and "want to" as WK pointed out.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i think u dont understand the word of obey WK.
obey means love between the both sides for example when i say to my wife do that or dont do that coz i have a vision and want to protect her from a trap she might fell in.
and when she tells me do that or dont do that i must recognize that she has avision and i hav to obey her.
coz she must recognize that im looking for her afty and her benifit.
also i must know that she is caring about me and want me to be safe .
thats love and kind of trust . she trusts me and i trust her but u WK conseder it as controlling or as a master and slave .
finally i want to say when u obay ur husband and when i obey my wife it shows how much u both love and trust each other .
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
( have to and want to ) we r not in agramatical course lol
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
u should understand what he wants before even he say it . u should know his intention . ( u r husband and wife )
and he should know what u want and what is ur intention before u say it
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
Pablo, In English when you "have to" do something it means that you do not have a choice. When you "want to" do something it means that you choose to do it.... It is an important difference.
quote: u should understand what he wants before even he say it . u should know his intention . ( u r husband and wife )
and he should know what u want and what is ur intention before u say it
How? Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
its akind of understanding.
if u know him well then u can know that he is upset with something and u have to calm him down . some times u do some thing he doesnt like and he will not speak but u have to know that he is angrey or upset coz u did some thing . then u try to work it out and vise virsa.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
whn u know that he is happy coz of some thing happened then u try hard to repeat the same thing to him to let him happy without even telling u . with out even talking. is that right WK lol
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote: Well I cant help thinking that you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing Of-Gold. But if you really NEED me to tell you.
Actually, I am disagreeing because I have experienced it.
Yes, good is subjective. For instance, I think it is good to look into a persons eyes and shake their hand whether they are male or female. Some think it is bad to look into a mans eyes and shake his hand if you are female.
Then if you add religion into the mix the husband may feel he is doing "good" on some religious grounds.
There is also a huge difference between "have to" and "want to" as WK pointed out.
No, you have experienced 'obeying' when you didnt want to obey. If two people are happy with that arrangement its not an issue.
yes there is a difference between having to and wanting to. But in the context it was spoken of it was 'two people wanting to'.
We Obey our parents because we felt they loved us and took care of us, and Hopefully never hurt us. Its the same concept. Not that we NEED someone to obey, but that sometimes in life it does not hurt to have someone take overall responsibility for some things.
Also
Due to misuse of 'obey' we as women are against it, but we do it every day in other aspects of our lives without feeling controlled or resentful.
For instance, at work we obey. If we didnt would anything really ever get done? Dont you always need someone to direct in order for things to run smoothly.
People pulling in so many directions at the same time would never work, and relationships, families, can be the same.
the definition of 'obey' is not as scary as we perceive it:
1. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of. 2. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).
It is mostly the mis use of power that has led women to fear this word I feel. Posted by Egyptmom (Member # 16445) on :
I really advise her as her sister in Islam to perform Salat al Istakhara every day to ask for ALLAH's help in showing her the path that HE wants for her as this has helped me so much to have patience and faith that everything will be fine.
What is Salat al Istakhara?
Posted by ***** (Member # 14677) on :
The only person I obey is myself, but my dog obeys me as I am her master, dogs like to have a leader as they run in packs. The only people I ever obeyed in my life were my parents as they were guiding me as to what is right and what is wrong, and my teachers, lol, had no choice there Posted by *Misho* (Member # 12012) on :
Well,,Generally I believe it depends on "How the 2 partners view the concept of (Obedience)",,I dont really think that any person would be happy at any point if s/he felt they are slaves by way or another except if it is something about psychological sickness,,Noone want to be a slave?,,Right?
When somebody say "obey" here,,Part would look at it as (Slavery) and it is THEIR issue,,The other part would look at it as being loved or as love sign and its THEIR issue also,,Jealousy from both partners,,Wanting to pick up the wife for instance from somewhere if its late at night,,Informing the man or the woman as well where and when s/he will going if any of them is up to go somewhere..etc..All of this some would look at it as caring and others would see it insecurity,,Slavery,,etc..
When someone seeing it like that and relate it to the religion it doesnt mean that they dont realize that they live in the 21th century,,Does it??,,The main point is "Do you see it dysfunctional relationship or not?Do you see it LITERALLY obedience or look at it from another prespective?",,If you see it dysfunctional and hate it so noway in Islam it IS acceptable,,The main point is "I hate it or not,,Feel that s/he is controling and wanna me to be their slave or not?
The problem will exist between the couple if someone from the first part involved with someone from the second part,,So how come the life will be when someone look at it as a love/caring sign and the other find it like slavery,,No way this will going to work between both.
Its so simple,,If you arent convinced by it you wouldnt like it so you will hate it,,When you will hate it noway you will feel fine about it thus noway you will gonna remain in it.
But in general I dont believe that anyone would feel fine about the word "Obey" if s/he feel it like it is literally O-b-e-d-i-e-n-c-e except with Allah for those who believe in him IMHO.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: I really advise her as her sister in Islam to perform Salat al Istakhara every day to ask for ALLAH's help in showing her the path that HE wants for her as this has helped me so much to have patience and faith that everything will be fine.
What is Salat al Istakhara?
'salat' means prayer
its a prayer muslims say before they make any big decisions to help them be sure they are making the right decision.
Its kind of asking God for his guidance in making the right decision.
The word 'obey' is related to a power relation, we think of doing what one is instructed to do. Obedience is an attitude toward a higher authority. And to talk about the bible:
Some Scriptures...
Genesis 3:16......and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee, not no more co-equal together at all.
I Corinthians 14:32. Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it's not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience,...
But I suffer not a woman to teach, or to usurp authority... (be a pastor, deacon, or anything like that)... over the man... (See?)... usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. I Timothy 2:11
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote: Well I cant help thinking that you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing Of-Gold. But if you really NEED me to tell you.
Actually, I am disagreeing because I have experienced it.
No, you have experienced 'obeying' when you didnt want to obey. If two people are happy with that arrangement its not an issue.
Interesting that you know what I have experienced.
Bingo, ????? !
Islam is not the only religion that is a catalyst. The woman feels she is obeying God by obeying her husband. The husband feels he is a superior to the woman. An ideal environment for abuse.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote: u should understand what he wants before even he say it . u should know his intention . ( u r husband and wife )
and he should know what u want and what is ur intention before u say it
How? [/QB]
Telepathy Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
the definition of 'obey' is not as scary as we perceive it:
1. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of. 2. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).
It is mostly the mis use of power that has led women to fear this word I feel.
Its not a misuse of power, its there in the definition of the word itself, it is totally to do with power and command is very different to request
We are told to Obey GOD, a man is not God. In the Bible the man is as a god, sorry dont remember the verse, something about the head of a man and the head of a woman., of_gold im sure will know the one i mean. So im with Penny, the day I have to obey any man is the day hes out the door.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
u need to be more self confident . coz in arelationship there is no one better than the other.
u will never have ahappy and stable life with such mentality . im so sorry but it is my openion.
arrogand girls doesnt have happy and stable life
marriage is aholy relationship not a war.
it doesnt matter who obey the other as u both do the things make u happy.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
its time for bed see u tomorrow bye
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: u need to be more self confident . coz in arelationship there is no one better than the other.
u will never have ahappy and stable life with such mentality . im so sorry but it is my openion.
arrogand girls doesnt have happy and stable life
marriage is aholy relationship not a war.
it doesnt matter who obey the other as u both do the things make u happy.
thanks dr pablo
I agree marriage is not a war therefore no NEED for obeying any commands. Ours works fine with 'requests' not commands. I would never command my husband do anything as that would imply I am better than him, and he would never command anything of me because he doesnt think he is better than me. So you have contradicted yourself there.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
quote: the definition of 'obey' is not as scary as we perceive it:
1. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of. 2. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).
It is mostly the mis use of power that has led women to fear this word I feel.
That's exactly how I see the meaning of the word. I too am a fan of dictionary definitions, instead of people making up their own meaning (like Pablo did). Why should there be "commands" in a relationship? Yes, at work I obey a lot, I obey my manager and my supervisor- because there is a hierarchy and they are above me. In the world as a whole, I obey the law, policemen, etc, because, there is a hierarchy, and they are above me. But in marriage, in my opinion, no one is above the other. Saying one person has to obey is putting in a hierarchy where I believe there shouldn't be. When I obey someone, I am putting them above me, be it in work or general life. Being an adult means I can now work out what is best for me and make up my own decisions, and make mistakes. Someone can give me their opinion and advice, but I wont allow them to command me- there is a huge difference.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
the definition of 'obey' is not as scary as we perceive it:
1. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of. 2. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).
It is mostly the mis use of power that has led women to fear this word I feel.
Its not a misuse of power, its there in the definition of the word itself, it is totally to do with power and command is very different to request
We are told to Obey GOD, a man is not God. In the Bible the man is as a god, sorry dont remember the verse, something about the head of a man and the head of a woman., of_gold im sure will know the one i mean. So im with Penny, the day I have to obey any man is the day hes out the door.
I think, in any religion, als the is a double standard in obedience. From onse side there is written to obey God, at the other side they leave it open as an own choice, and God will judge after life. That is because (IMO) they want us to make our own choices, and only the OWN choices can be judged. If I am forced to follow orders, the one who orders is the one who can be blamed. Like the soldiers in war-situations: they are forced to follow commands, and there is no space left for own opinions. So, the one who orders, is the one who has to pay responsebility after. Something like that....
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
the matter here is not just commands.
why u want to make mistakes?
what u posted now is completly missunderstanding.
im egyptian and speak in english i havnt seen evry word and expretion in the dictionary .
hey guys its RELATIONSHIP. when u look for every word in the dictionary then u will be mindless like computer .
we said its RELATIONSHIP and every one agrees. we should have our sence . we should understand eachother. its not only commands and even if it commands and u love and trust ur husband u will never concider it dimands that u will concider it is akind of caring and love . ITS AHOLY RELATIONSHIP GUYS. no one is above the other please understand my feelings not my words coz ENGLISH is my second languagge . please understand what i feel not what i say.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
AYISHA im not DR. pablo but u can call me MR.PABLO lolllllllllll just joke .
please dont try to mock me like this its fair discussion. Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
its not war ?????????
u both should carry the resposibility not only one side. even if u had awrong descietion then u both should carry the responsibility.
its not war. its not fight.
its understanding and caring and LOVE LOVE LOVE. Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE] Well I cant help thinking that you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing Of-Gold. But if you really NEED me to tell you.
Actually, I am disagreeing because I have experienced it.
No, you have experienced 'obeying' when you didnt want to obey. If two people are happy with that arrangement its not an issue.
Interesting that you know what I have experienced. [/ QUOTE]
Yes I am referring to what you have stated on several occasions in the past, that you were in a controlling relationship. If you dont want me to refer to that, or THINK that YOU might be refferring to that then dont talk about it!
Forget it Of-Gold, I find you impossible to discuss anything with, you are too argumentative for my liking. Have a nice day. I wont reply any more because I have better things to do with my time than try and discuss something with someone who only wants to argue constantly.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: it doesnt matter who obey the other as u both do the things make u happy.
EXACTLY
The rest of you are talking ONLY about the word OBEY. This is what I said in the beginning. Dont get stuck on one word, look at it in context.
A man is REQUIRED to treat his wife with kindness. Does he not have to OBEY that also? OF COURSE.
If he is treating her with kindness, how is he asking her to do things that will make her unhappy?
WK - In you mum's relationship, you said her husband lets her make the decisions right? My mum and dad were very similar. Alot of men in the UK are similar to this. In my grandparents relationship my Grandad mostlly had the final word. My nan wasn't unhappy with this and he was a GOOD man and didnt abuse this or make her unhappy.
Often there is ONE person in a relationship that has the final say about SOME matters. Whether that a man or a woman doesn't matter, but what matters is they AGREE on it, dont abuse it, and make each other HAPPY.
Remember also that we are talking about roles in the family. The man has the responsibility to provide for his wife etc etc. There will be times when he will do things for her and times when she will do things for him.
Its very hard for me to argue this point convincingly because I am actually not keen on the word myself. But my main point was, it DOESN'T have to be a BAD word. If two people are happy with doing things that way, its not a problem and the people in it shouldn't be looked at as 'inferior' or 'living in the dark ages'.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
Oh Pablo sweety we do understand what you feel but it just seems to come out the wrong way when you write it down . You have to understand for us ladies that have grow up in a society where women are totally equal to men we will never accept the concept of obeying a man. To us that means to follow his orders and in an equal relationship that will never work.
Will an example help...I am cooking a roast chicken for dinner tonight, my husband asked me if we could eat at 7pm to fit in with his work...I could say yes or I could say no, sorry that will not fit in with my working day. That is a request from my husband. Now if he gave me an order he would tell me to have the dinner ready on the table at 7pm tonight....because his work is more important than mine.
Some people here are arguing for the concept of obeying for a marriage to work...yet it is those of us that do not have this expectation in our marriages that have the happy, working, and long lasting ones.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
As for obedience, keep in mind, first of all, that you cannot look at one point in Islam without looking at other related points. Islam is a whole system.
While men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. In marriage, the woman has the right to be financially supported and maintained. The husband has no right to any of her money. In return, the wife should obey her husband in things regarding the marriage - including whether she can work outside the house and who can visit in the house - but he has no say in how she invests or spends her own money as long as it is in a halal (Islamically legal) manner.
But, at the same time that she is to obey her husband, we are all told to conduct our affairs by mutual consultation, as the Qur’an states in Surah 42, verse 38:
*{And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.}*
So the husband should consult his wife on major decisions and take her opinion into consideration, but the ultimate decision is his, because finally there must be a decision-maker and head to this vital institution – the family.
There is a hadith that states that the prayers of three people will not be accepted [or raised to Heaven], one of whom is the woman whose husband is angry with, until he is satisfied. But, if we are in a loving marriage - which is what we should all strive for - a woman would rarely do something to anger her husband, and he would rarely retain his anger. Yet, if he really is unjust to her, another hadith tells us that the prayers of three people are always heard, one of whom is the person who has been dealt with unjustly.
So, you cannot take just one point without examining others. Husbands and wives should consult each other and try to compromise when they disagree. If a woman has to give in to her husband, sometimes because the final decision is his, she should do it willingly for the sake of Allah and to maintain peace in the family. It is also to be noted that if it turns out to be a bad decision, the responsibility is his!
This situation does not mean that the wife would be weak if she gives in. She has a different kind of strength, a “tensile” strength to bend rather than snap. And, if she does it for the sake of Allah, He will definitely make things easier for her.
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: it doesnt matter who obey the other as u both do the things make u happy.
EXACTLY
The rest of you are talking ONLY about the word OBEY. This is what I said in the beginning. Dont get stuck on one word, look at it in context.
A man is REQUIRED to treat his wife with kindness. Does he not have to OBEY that also? OF COURSE.
If he is treating her with kindness, how is he asking her to do things that will make her unhappy?
WK - In you mum's relationship, you said her husband lets her make the decisions right? My mum and dad were very similar. Alot of men in the UK are similar to this. In my grandparents relationship my Grandad mostlly had the final word. My nan wasn't unhappy with this and he was a GOOD man and didnt abuse this or make her unhappy.
Often there is ONE person in a relationship that has the final say about SOME matters. Whether that a man or a woman doesn't matter, but what matters is they AGREE on it, dont abuse it, and make each other HAPPY.
Remember also that we are talking about roles in the family. The man has the responsibility to provide for his wife etc etc. There will be times when he will do things for her and times when she will do things for him.
Its very hard for me to argue this point convincingly because I am actually not keen on the word myself. But my main point was, it DOESN'T have to be a BAD word. If two people are happy with doing things that way, its not a problem and the people in it shouldn't be looked at as 'inferior' or 'living in the dark ages'.
I think the only way you will be happy with the concept of obeying is if you have grown up in a culture where that is normal and seen your parents marriage work that way. This is not normal for us in the west and is very outdated...so yes I do see it as the dark ages and can't comprehend any western woman regressing back to such a marriage.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by Penny:
Some people here are arguing for the concept of obeying for a marriage to work...yet it is those of us that do not have this expectation in our marriages that have the happy, working, and long lasting ones.
HOW DARE YOU!
MY GOD Penny I am surprised at this superiority, from YOU, you are just missing some rolling eyes!! You were never like this before.
Well if you want to make this into some kind of competition of whose word is more valid. I doubt you can beat the 60 years my grandparents had where he was head of the household, so dont be quite so sure of yourself.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*: As for obedience, keep in mind, first of all, that you cannot look at one point in Islam without looking at other related points. Islam is a whole system.
While men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. In marriage, the woman has the right to be financially supported and maintained. The husband has no right to any of her money. In return, the wife should obey her husband in things regarding the marriage - including whether she can work outside the house and who can visit in the house - but he has no say in how she invests or spends her own money as long as it is in a halal (Islamically legal) manner.
But, at the same time that she is to obey her husband, we are all told to conduct our affairs by mutual consultation, as the Qur’an states in Surah 42, verse 38:
*{And those who respond to their Lord and keep up prayer, and their rule is to take counsel among themselves, and who spend out of what We have given them.}*
So the husband should consult his wife on major decisions and take her opinion into consideration, but the ultimate decision is his, because finally there must be a decision-maker and head to this vital institution – the family.
There is a hadith that states that the prayers of three people will not be accepted [or raised to Heaven], one of whom is the woman whose husband is angry with, until he is satisfied. But, if we are in a loving marriage - which is what we should all strive for - a woman would rarely do something to anger her husband, and he would rarely retain his anger. Yet, if he really is unjust to her, another hadith tells us that the prayers of three people are always heard, one of whom is the person who has been dealt with unjustly.
So, you cannot take just one point without examining others. Husbands and wives should consult each other and try to compromise when they disagree. If a woman has to give in to her husband, sometimes because the final decision is his, she should do it willingly for the sake of Allah and to maintain peace in the family. It is also to be noted that if it turns out to be a bad decision, the responsibility is his!
This situation does not mean that the wife would be weak if she gives in. She has a different kind of strength, a “tensile” strength to bend rather than snap. And, if she does it for the sake of Allah, He will definitely make things easier for her. For more on these topics, please see:
Cat taken in context as a whole like most things in Islam it's sensible and works but as we all know the problem is so many men don't take things in context and like to pick and choose what they want to live by.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by Penny: Cat taken in context as a whole like most things in Islam it's sensible and works but as we all know the problem is so many men don't take things in context and like to pick and choose what they want to live by.
And that is precisely why we cant argue it is WRONG. I agree that people do not do things properly, but that doesn't make the CONCEPT wrong. Only the people.
Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by Penny:
Some people here are arguing for the concept of obeying for a marriage to work...yet it is those of us that do not have this expectation in our marriages that have the happy, working, and long lasting ones.
HOW DARE YOU!
MY GOD Penny I am surprised at this superiority, from YOU, you are just missing some rolling eyes!! You were never like this before.
Well if you want to make this into some kind of competition of whose word is more valid. I doubt you can beat the 60 years my grandparents had where he was head of the household, so dont be quite so sure of yourself.
LOL me superior!! I am talking about cross cultural marriages in this current generation. it's not a competition Cat just a statement of fact as to what does and does not work. You said yourself you find it hard to argue for the concept of obeying in the way most of us undertand it.
Any hey...you didn't used to be so sensitive Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by Penny:
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by Penny:
Some people here are arguing for the concept of obeying for a marriage to work...yet it is those of us that do not have this expectation in our marriages that have the happy, working, and long lasting ones.
HOW DARE YOU!
MY GOD Penny I am surprised at this superiority, from YOU, you are just missing some rolling eyes!! You were never like this before.
Well if you want to make this into some kind of competition of whose word is more valid. I doubt you can beat the 60 years my grandparents had where he was head of the household, so dont be quite so sure of yourself.
LOL me superior!! I am talking about cross cultural marriages in this current generation. it's not a competition Cat just a statement of fact as to what does and does not work. You said yourself you find it hard to argue for the concept of obeying in the way most of us undertand it.
Any hey...you didn't used to be so sensitive
Because people never used to imply that I have no right to speak because my relationship didnt last as long as theirs!
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
v., o·beyed, o·bey·ing, o·beys.
v.tr. To carry out or fulfill the command, order, or instruction of. To carry out or comply with (a command, for example).
I would never lack such dignity to obey a command like a performing dog.
I can see why some woman get walked all over if they think this is normal!
Sorry, if a man loves a woman and vice versa they would never make commands to be obeyed in the first instance! Whatever happened to mutual respect and self respect. And I think this of any religion or culture.
If a man ordered or commanded me to do anything I would go out and buy him a dog to speak like crap to!
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold:
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: [QUOTE] Well I cant help thinking that you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing Of-Gold. But if you really NEED me to tell you.
Actually, I am disagreeing because I have experienced it.
No, you have experienced 'obeying' when you didnt want to obey. If two people are happy with that arrangement its not an issue.
Interesting that you know what I have experienced. [/ QUOTE]
Yes I am referring to what you have stated on several occasions in the past, that you were in a controlling relationship. If you dont want me to refer to that, or THINK that YOU might be refferring to that then dont talk about it!
Forget it Of-Gold, I find you impossible to discuss anything with, you are too argumentative for my liking. Have a nice day. I wont reply any more because I have better things to do with my time than try and discuss something with someone who only wants to argue constantly.
Yes, I was in a controlling relationship but I entered it with the same attitude that you have. That I wanted to obey and please my husband. So you are wrong that I didn't want to obey.
quote: Because people never used to imply that I have no right to speak because my relationship didnt last as long as theirs!
I never saw anyone imply that you have no right to speak your opinion. I just see you getting upset when others have a different opinion. Posted by Rumicrazieluv (Member # 12053) on :
Personally I think every woman on here is right in their point as it is subjective how each person takes the word "obey". I also know it has little to do with Islam being male- female dominated as EVERY(emphasis) religion has it built in the man is the leader or "head of household" who needs to "take care" of his wife and children. As we have evolved as woman it's obvious in many instances that this is no longer the case.
When I was married to first husband I hated the word obey so much I asked the minister if he could substitute the word "obey" with the phrase " I will take into consideration everything you have to say and if It makes sense I will agree "
It's also interesting that some of the men have no problem with a woman "making all the decisions" . How many times do you hear men say " I can't go play with you johnny my wife says we have to go her mothers tonight"?
So if my husband now says to me "bibi plz be careful, wear your seatbelt ,call me before you come home from work so I can watch you get out of the car, be careful with the grease while your cooking so you dont get burnt(this one makes me laugh) this might be by some of you considered obeying if I do these things but to me its that I know the difference in control vs an over protective husband because I lived both . I know he loves me and worries even though I was single for 7 years after my first divorce and can take care of myself just fine. Some women would be offended by this and say this is "control" . I know that a marriage takes 2 people and sometimes you have to pick your battles and other times he has to pick his. It depends on the structure of your relationship, IMHO. He knows that if he told me to have his dinner ready at 8pm or to quit my job because he doesnt like my co workers that he has a snowballs chance in hell of seeing either happen!!
I think your all right and I also think that if a woman lets her husband run the show or a man lets his wife run the show and it works for them then we have no business judging that either. After all, some people are unable to make good decisions for themselves and they prefer to let someone else run the show then we cant bash that either. One women's hell is another woman's paradise, I know this to be true because I cant for the life of me understand how my ex husband's new wife is happy and stays with such a miserable controlling SOB!!
Posted by justvisiting (Member # 14989) on :
Meanwhiile, back at the ranch....
Egyptmom, how's it coming along with your daughter?
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by of_gold: I never saw anyone imply that you have no right to speak your opinion. I just see you getting upset when others have a different opinion.
Just because you refuse to acknowledge it doesn't mean that its not there. For your information, I was more shocked than upset, I dont let a bunch of bitchy women upset me of-gold.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
We can't confuse "obey" with fulfilling a request. If you are obeying, that means you have been commanded. If one person commands another, than they have positioned themselves higher up. I would never command a loved one or friend, just because I believe what they are doing is wrong or I didn't agree with it. I might offer some advice. In the end, we are individuals and entitled to make our own decisions, and perhaps mistakes. We are not puppets on a sting, with a husband the puppeteer.
quote: Sorry, if a man loves a woman and vice versa they would never make commands to be obeyed in the first instance! Whatever happened to mutual respect and self respect. And I think this of any religion or culture.
Couldn't agree more.
Anyway- I know the relationship I would like, someone else would have something different in mind. The world would be boring if we all thought the same.
Posted by bumfegypt (Member # 16494) on :
do whatever you can do to stop this relationship. Your daughter will ruin her life and even end up dead. Violence towards women is mucb more common in Egypt and is exceptable as the women deserved it. People should stick with their own cultures. Isn't their any men where you people live?
Posted by Kalila : ) (Member # 14517) on :
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by bumfegypt: do whatever you can do to stop this relationship. Your daughter will ruin her life and even end up dead. Violence towards women is mucb more common in Egypt and is exceptable as the women deserved it. People should stick with their own cultures. Isn't their any men where you people live?
acceptable there
its not sono, even she's not that bad.
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
s hit i better call walid and call it all of... tell him i cant be with him cas some dumb ass bi cth said so.. hahahah thats fucin so funny...
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
I think it is Ayisha that said "there is a difference between REQUESTING and COMMANDING. To me personally that is the key
I have never felt like my husband wanted me to *obey* him we just do not have a relationship like that. Of course there are things i do that i know pleases him and he does also.
Cat quoted: The husband has no right to any of her money. In return, the wife should obey her husband in things regarding the marriage - including whether she can work outside the house and who can visit in the house - but he has no say in how she invests or spends her own money as long as it is in a halal (Islamically legal) manner.
To me Cat that is where i draw the line. It is my home (as well as my husbands) he could not and would not tell me who would be welcome in my home. He could not and would not tell me not to work. Those (amongst others) are aspects of our lives that he would trust me to make the right choices. He knows that i would never choose to work if it were to affect our home in a negative manner. He knows that i would never welcome a person into my home that would be wrong. This is where the black and white areas turn grey to me.
Of course i would always tell my husband where i was going and he would expect that but he in turn would always tell me where he were going, as i would expect that. I think it was Rumi that said that we all have a difference on what we ourselves are calling controlling/obeying and i agree Cat that if both parties are happy then who are we to judge Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*: in Islamic marriages there are times when a woman DOES have to obey her husband.
That's what people keep telling you, but there's no verse in the Qur'an that says a woman has to obey her husband. Not to mention the fact that it goes completely against logic to obey a person simply because they have a different set of chromosomes.
quote: There is a hadith that states that the prayers of three people will not be accepted [or raised to Heaven], one of whom is the woman whose husband is angry with, until he is satisfied.
And you believe that?
This hadith says that how God judges one human being (the wife) depends on how another human being (the husband) feels and thinks about her. That doesn't sound like something a just and merciful God would do. And it clearly goes agains the Qur'an which is very clear about the fact that each person is judged by their own actions and thoughts.
Posted by *Caterpillar* (Member # 16147) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*: in Islamic marriages there are times when a woman DOES have to obey her husband.
That's what people keep telling you, but there's no verse in the Qur'an that says a woman has to obey her husband. Not to mention the fact that it goes completely against logic to obey a person simply because they have a different set of chromosomes.
quote: There is a hadith that states that the prayers of three people will not be accepted [or raised to Heaven], one of whom is the woman whose husband is angry with, until he is satisfied.
And you believe that?
This hadith says that how God judges one human being (the wife) depends on how another human being (the husband) feels and thinks about her. That doesn't sound like something a just and merciful God would do. And it clearly goes agains the Qur'an which is very clear about the fact that each person is judged by their own actions and thoughts.
Nope Dalia, I dont believe that, it was a quote I posted, but I dont believe everything I quote.
I was just trying to make a point about the whole 'obey' thing.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
All religions say ( or a lot of them) that the wife has to obey her husband. HOW they see this, is a personal intrepretation. Fact is that there is unequality between men and women in religious laws, so if one one is considered as the one who has the right to order and demand, and one has the duty to obey, the man is considered as a higher rank. At the same time, and often forgotten (lol), that higher rank also gives responsebilities, obligations. So, HE has to take care that SHE feels fine in obeying her husband, not to demand anything that goes into her own principles. If a husbands loves and respect his wife, he wouldn't even demand things that don't make her feel good, it simply doesn't work this way!
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
Reason number 35 to be agnostic... to not be classed as a lower rank in a relationship!
Quality in Equality if you ask me.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
When you're assuming that everybody with a religion should totally act like the religion described, it is. But how many people are doing this? Majority isn't, there is always an open space filled in in each and everyones personal norms and values. I think thát is the meaning of a religion. They offer guidelines, but they have to be suitable for a lot of different circumstances, cultures, characters, times etc. It is meant as more as blind obedience to an authority, as it are their own actions which decided their afterlife fate. Blind obedience is not a sign of faith, but a survival in a culture, in a period of history, when people can't make their own decisions because there is not ebough knowledge to make that decision. The female obedience regulation is made in a time that people thought that every man was a rational thinker and the woman is led by emotions. Emotions are considered as being a bad decisionmaker, so it was the duty of the man to keep his head clear and think rational and clear. In the time of today, where males and females are both educated, able to read the religious scripts, to think logical and make logical decisions, to take responsebility for the own acts, there hasn't has to be authority from the man above the woman. It is only a sign of respect that a man is trusting in his wife decisions.
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*: There is a hadith that states that the prayers of three people will not be accepted [or raised to Heaven], one of whom is the woman whose husband is angry with, until he is satisfied.
Its a very good thing I don't have the ROFL smilie right now. Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*: Yes, you are both right. She should be careful and these things DO happen. Also, as you said 6 months is not long when you become a muslim.
Well, maybe mum can just try to convince her to stay in the US and he can come to her?
Well, I'm not sure what to advise really. The passport thing is a must and I dont think anyone should let go of their passport.
Honestly, I would be concerned too if it was my daughter wanting to go and live in Egypt with a man she hardly knew. So I would advise he come to her.
I would urge any woman NOT to take advice from someone as stupid as Pillar. Pillar allowed her young child to watch her being beaten by a muslim man for years. She obeyed his every ignorant 'haddith' and begged him to stay, when HE left HER. Keep in mind that this woman would do anything for a man before reacting to her immature judgements. Why is it that the biggest former 'sluts' become the most stupid reverts on Egypt Search?
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Oh my goodness!! Please I urge everyone not to respond to such bullocks!!
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Oh my goodness!! Please I urge everyone not to respond to such bullocks!!
You just did! Don't you EVER log off? Even to throw your kids a snack?
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
and when will yr dumb ass quit makin new id;s to try and get yr rocks off? ***********
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
quote:Originally posted by Penny:
quote:Originally posted by *Caterpillar*:
quote:Originally posted by Penny:
Some people here are arguing for the concept of obeying for a marriage to work...yet it is those of us that do not have this expectation in our marriages that have the happy, working, and long lasting ones.
HOW DARE YOU!
MY GOD Penny I am surprised at this superiority, from YOU, you are just missing some rolling eyes!! You were never like this before.
Well if you want to make this into some kind of competition of whose word is more valid. I doubt you can beat the 60 years my grandparents had where he was head of the household, so dont be quite so sure of yourself.
LOL me superior!! I am talking about cross cultural marriages in this current generation. it's not a competition Cat just a statement of fact as to what does and does not work. You said yourself you find it hard to argue for the concept of obeying in the way most of us undertand it.
Any hey...you didn't used to be so sensitive
Last time I looked, Pillar was accusing WK and LF of being superior. Penny now joins the ranks. When so many women think Pillar is an idiot, shouldn't she pay a little attention? Or does she only listen to what men say?
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: and when will yr dumb ass quit makin new id;s to try and get yr rocks off? ***********
Another one who never logs off, for even a potty break. Her potty mouth is always the same though...
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Ah tina, don't worry about her. A dog that barks won't bite.....
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
quote:Originally posted by ***********************:
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: and when will yr dumb ass quit makin new id;s to try and get yr rocks off? ***********
Another one who never logs off, for even a potty break. Her potty mouth is always the same though...
i wasnt on all dang day dumb ass.. and if u dont like what i say well i guess that yr problem right.. u cant offend me what so ever... dont u have a husband to watch screw yr daughter? is he still beating u??
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
23177 posts and Tigerbitch hasn't managed one funny. What's wrong, Tiger? Did holy man Misho not like your pic? I guess ones from thirty years ago don't get him off the same, huh? He creeps about ES, forgetting to mention to women he is married, while hinting and asking for pics. Seems the only one who he doesn't ask for pics is his virtual wife, Rumicrazywoman. His flattery is every bit as repulsive as his insincere preaching. I wonder which hadith says it's fine to behave like a sanctimonious little prick? I bet he makes one up. I bet again that Pillar and Rumi believe it!
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal:
quote:Originally posted by ***********************:
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: and when will yr dumb ass quit makin new id;s to try and get yr rocks off? ***********
Another one who never logs off, for even a potty break. Her potty mouth is always the same though...
i wasnt on all dang day dumb ass.. and if u dont like what i say well i guess that yr problem right.. u cant offend me what so ever... dont u have a husband to watch screw yr daughter? is he still beating u??
I'm bored with you already. You are chronically stupid and only dummies like Tigerbitch indulge your idiocy.
Posted by tina kamal (Member # 13845) on :
quote:Originally posted by ***********************:
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal:
quote:Originally posted by ***********************:
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: and when will yr dumb ass quit makin new id;s to try and get yr rocks off? ***********
Another one who never logs off, for even a potty break. Her potty mouth is always the same though...
i wasnt on all dang day dumb ass.. and if u dont like what i say well i guess that yr problem right.. u cant offend me what so ever... dont u have a husband to watch screw yr daughter? is he still beating u??
I'm bored with you already. You are chronically stupid and only dummies like Tigerbitch indulge your idiocy.
awwwwwww already.. are u bored cas i pegged u or because u are just normaly a stupid bit ch??
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
Good one, Tina!!! That really showed me. You go girl.
Posted by ????? (Member # 12336) on :
That really is the best post I've read in a long time. You should use it and tell the management!
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
I thought this was betty too (like bumfegypt) but i doubt betty even knows the word sanctimonious
If you *******************, have a problem with some posters why don't you just say it as you are instead of creating a new id? WTF is that about? Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Nah this looks more like SWYS/Lumos.
Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
I always used to like Lumos posts Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
I actually quite like reading some of the more honest posts...
Posted by Momma_Dukes (Member # 14252) on :
quote:Originally posted by tina kamal: s hit i better call walid and call it all of... tell him i cant be with him cas some dumb ass bi cth said so.. hahahah thats fucin so funny...
omg have u 2 even met yet? im not being smart but tina, its been almost 6 years dude. u joking about calling it off, but really, has it even been ON?
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
quote: I actually quite like reading some of the more honest posts...
Me too, however, what is the point in being honest about what you think of certain people, if you hide behind a different ID? I like to be honest, and not in disguise... Ferret you flaming gallar! Ahhh, now that feels better Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
I just like reading honest words... couldn't give a chuff who off
Too many tippy toed people here who have random outbursts for entertainment purposes!!!
Screw you WK I am lush and you know it Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
I like my random outbursts! Well, I wouldn't say they are random, but specifically calculated for time and user to determine when it will bring me the most entertainment You are most certainly a lush, and let us not forget troll and slapper Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
Oh there have been numerous remarks made to us over the time eh WK... shame they are like water off a duck's back I wish I could be so fecked off with life to insult others so freely to make myself feel better muhahahaha
I don't have many outbursts as that might mean I care
If I outburst I generally just have no chocolate near by...
Posted by of_gold (Member # 13418) on :
gold hands the Lady a chocolate... Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty:
quote: I actually quite like reading some of the more honest posts...
Me too, however, what is the point in being honest about what you think of certain people, if you hide behind a different ID? I like to be honest, and not in disguise... Ferret you flaming gallar! Ahhh, now that feels better
You girls may be superior lushes, but you are fun, brighter ones. WK, I'm not a fan of trolls either, but biased, careless moderation has encouraged certain trolls whilst banning those whom he has personal grudges against. Besides, name changers are all over this forum. Tomorrow, I'll have one less *
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
Shux Gold... thanks mate.
I have Ferrero Rocher to hand this evening Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
I don't overly care for who is who or who likes who this week.. words matter and I do consider sometimes that as I live here I have more right than those who don't to state how life actually is right now!
I have also stated that even the opinions of those of us who live here differ from one another, but they are more valid than those who don't If that makes me a superior lush then I want that in lights
I personally like the boat rockers, it shows others folks true colours in their short tempered responses Posted by Vader- (Member # 14189) on :
*yawn*
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
I'm in Egypt too... so do I get to have an opinion?
I should have emphasised 'superior lushes', just to make it clear they weren't my words. A bit of boat rocking is necessary. It has become too dull, too incestuous on ES.
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
shurrup you midget...
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
I like being called a superior lush... it is a nice compliment.
You are definantly allowed an opinion if you are in Egypt!!! Unless you are not a muslim or involved with a Egyptian guy then you are back at the bottom of the ladder! Sorry! I don't make the rules
There are those trying to promote Egypt like it is a haven and some trying to demote it like it is hell.. there are also some of us trying to allow people to see both the good and bad! Or real life as some might say.
Posted by *********************** (Member # 16500) on :
Were you just serious for a moment there, LF? I think I need to go lie down. You recognise a range of opinions and experiences when stating your own views. 'Superior lushes' aren't so bad.
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
I think I did have a serious moment... it is ok, it has since passed.
I shall go back to being my drunken whorish self
PARTY Posted by happybunny (Member # 14224) on :
call me stupid but what is a superior lush? Where i'm from lush means good looking/beautiful or something is great.
I know i am a LUSH superior - well maybe Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
To me, lush means a bit of a drunk tart. So no arguments here if someone wishes to call me a supior one- I like to be the best at what I do! (even if I haven't been able to drink for three months ) But then, is you call something lush, you are saying it's nice. Ohhh english linguistics.
Now, because I don't live in egypt, not religious, and in fact no longer with my tourist industry working other half... I'm going to assume I get no say, and should sit in the corner. Oh well, I'm very fond of my opinions, and shall inflict them on you all MWAHAHAHAHA Posted by 'Shahrazat (Member # 12769) on :
I see cakes as lush!!! Something desirable and wanted
Lush is also a soap shop!!!
WK, all rights you had to an opinion are now null and void. Give me the pass back and get outta here!
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
Ohhh very nice... however, with a name like that, I would worry that any massage I get would come with a "happy ending" Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
*passes ES pass to LF* Do I get it back and the right to an opinion when I have my lil half egyptian?
Posted by Lady Ferret (Member # 15263) on :
You can have a pass back once you have reproduced I believe. I think this is Rule No... 33
Posted by Kylie Karren (Member # 16975) on :
quote:Originally posted by Egyptmom: Is this typical Muslim or Egyptian man behavior? My daughter is still in the U.S. but engaged to an Egytian man. She has to ask his permission to go somewhere after dark even though she is half way across the world from him. She thinks this is ok!!!!
Hi I am new here and I was in the same situation as your daughter about 12 years ago. I was smitten by an Egyptian man. It didn't work out for us due to his controlling nature. Hope it works out for your daughter and make sure she is careful.
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Sad,really disturbing reason to convert to whatever religion.As if she was changing shoes or something. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
about meeting up with some muslim women maybe in her area. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Those (amongst others) are aspects of our lives that he would trust me to make the right choices. He knows that i would never choose to work if it were to affect our home in a negative manner. He knows that i would never welcome a person into my home that would be wrong. This is where the black and white areas turn grey to me.