I have been married 3 years by a court registered orfi, and to night my egyptian husband told me that his family wanted him to marry an egyptian woman for children. I cant have any. He says he cant say no to his mum and dad, althought no lady has been found yet. He said he will tell the woman that he has an english wife and he will be living with her as he loves her. He has told his family that as well so he says and I beleive him. I dont know what to do any advice would be grateful.
Posted by stayingput (Member # 14989) on :
How do YOU feel about it?
Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
Do you actually live with him day in and day out?
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Are you living in the UK while your husband lives in Egypt?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarah68: his family wanted him to marry an egyptian woman for children.
He says he cant say no to his mum and dad, althought no lady has been found yet.
Spineless and weak. I would dump him.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by sarah68: his family wanted him to marry an egyptian woman for children.
He says he cant say no to his mum and dad, althought no lady has been found yet.
Spineless and weak. I would dump him.
Agreed
Posted by sarah68 (Member # 18469) on :
I have been since Nov 2008 but have been back in uk since 2010 due to family reasons but was going back in April 2011. I dont know how I feel as I am still in shock. I still love him but dont know if i can cope with the situation of him getting married and then coming back to me. Sounds awful to me. I also feel for the woman. How would she feel. Opinions welcome.
Posted by Cosmogirl (Member # 8748) on :
My opinion is that he has already gotten himself married, and that you are the tail on that comet. He is telling you before you come back to Egypt so you won't go into shock when you get there, OR so you don't go back at all.
Posted by stayingput (Member # 14989) on :
How would she feel?
She would probably feel that it's his right to have more than one wife and because, culturally, he has to have a reason to take another wife. You not being able to give him children (it's always the current wife's/wives' fault) is certainly a sufficient reason. Top that off with doing it to be obedient to his parents, particularly his mother, in her head, he's probably a stand up guy. The icing on the cake would be that he has a wife with a British passport because that elevates him in terms of status because maybe, just maybe, one day he'll probably travel to the UK and work and send money home for her and the children.
That's a lot of probably and not much fact, I know.
I agree he's spineless. Forced marriages are not Islamic and he doesn't have to marry anyone he doesn't want to.
Posted by Mrs Hassan (Member # 15069) on :
Take it from me... and I am serious, think with your head and not your heart, you will regret your decision to come back under such circumstances, think like your in England, would you let your husband have an affair, and have a child with another woman if you were living in the UK? Answer will probably be no....
Posted by Dzosser (Member # 9572) on :
Why not create a sticky and shove all the ES classics into it, making it easy for folks to log onto..we can call it VISA or ORFI, or anything that'll ring a bell on all that mumbo jumbo. Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
So what if new wife doesn't provide kids, does he then marry another and another till he has the 4?
I agree with other posters, maybe he is married already who knows. i wouldn't go for it, it would be bye bye and wish you well but you aint coming to my bed after being in someone elses, but that's just me and many women do it.
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mrs Hassan: Take it from me... and I am serious, think with your head and not your heart, you will regret your decision to come back under such circumstances, think like your in England, would you let your husband have an affair, and have a child with another woman if you were living in the UK? Answer will probably be no....
I have to agree with Mrs Hassan.
If your husband is Muslim , then he has that right to marry again if he wants children, if the first wife can't have any, then he will marry again to just produce children, sound cruel i know but very true.
Not sure to what to say here, just be careful and think with your head at this time and not with your heart.
I dont think your husband will refuse his parents wishes.
Posted by Dilemma (Member # 16672) on :
Sarah68 please think with your head and not your heart. Love dosen't conquer all. I wish you the best in whatever decision you make.
Posted by adelly (Member # 14574) on :
i love my husband with all my heart. I am muslim also and we are married islamically and in the moj. I understand the philosophy of marrying another in islam, but it doesnt work for me in my marriage personally. If my husand came home and told me he would marry again even for that reason, it would be without me.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
There is nothing in Quran about marrying for children and the verses are clearly allowing marrying more than one wife ONLY IF there are orphans to consider and Allah clearly tells you that you cannot treat women fairly no matter how much you desire to, so only 1 is better for you. See 4.3 and 4.129. Quran is telling you to marry only ONE.
Please reconsider blaming Quran or Islam for a man's desire to read a partial verse and claim he can have 4.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
Totally agree Ayisha. I have read that passage sooo many times, and I still cannot understand how so many think it justifies more than one wife under so many different circumstances. Also, if the quran DID allow men to remarry due to first not being able to conceive, then it would also allow a woman to do the same. They use their religion as an excuse for them having their cake and eating it, instead of actually respecting their faith. Did you know before you got married that you couldn't have children? If yes, then surely this is something you already discussed. There are plenty of childless couples, the idea that an Egyptian man MUST have children isn't true. I'm always surprised by threads like these. If you were married to a man from your country would you allow him this "right"? If he would marry and have sex with a woman because that is what his parents want, then quite simply why would you want a man like that? I love my husband, but if he would have sex with a woman, raise children with her (no matter what your husband says, once children come along, you will not be number one wife), then he simply doesn't love me enough. I would like to think my husband would physically/emotionally not be able to bring himself to touch another woman- don't you wonder how yours so easily can?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by weirdkitty: Totally agree Ayisha. I have read that passage sooo many times, and I still cannot understand how so many think it justifies more than one wife under so many different circumstances. Also, if the quran DID allow men to remarry due to first not being able to conceive, then it would also allow a woman to do the same. They use their religion as an excuse for them having their cake and eating it, instead of actually respecting their faith. Did you know before you got married that you couldn't have children? If yes, then surely this is something you already discussed. There are plenty of childless couples, the idea that an Egyptian man MUST have children isn't true. I'm always surprised by threads like these. If you were married to a man from your country would you allow him this "right"? If he would marry and have sex with a woman because that is what his parents want, then quite simply why would you want a man like that? I love my husband, but if he would have sex with a woman, raise children with her (no matter what your husband says, once children come along, you will not be number one wife), then he simply doesn't love me enough. I would like to think my husband wouldn’t physically not be able to bring himself to touch another woman- don't you wonder how yours so easily can?
I did discuss this before we married and made it clear if he wanted kids then divorce me first. He said also only 1 wife though and it was him that said what I said above about what if you still get no kids. He has an Egyptian friend here, some distant family as they all are, he has been married to his Egyptian wife for over 10 years and they have no kids, he hasn't married another wife coz this one hasn't conceived though.
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
It seems like the parents do want grand children.
And have been pressuring their son to marry again.Maybe they see this as an islamic obligation.
I did say he has the right to marry again if HE wants children, any person has this right whether male or female.
As she has a Orfi marriage. Can he marry again or does he need to get divorced to remarry ?
I agree with you Ayisha on the quote.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by marydot: It seems like the parents do want grand children.
so they force their son to marry a baby machine? Not very 'Islamic'
quote:And have been pressuring their son to marry again.Maybe they see this as an islamic obligation.
They probaly see FGM as an Islamic obligation too, doesn't mean it is.
quote:I did say he has the right to marry again if HE wants children, any person has this right whether male or female.
yes of course, in any culture in any country if a man or woman wants children and the person they claim to love can't have them they have a right to marry again, when they are free to do so.
quote:As she has a Orfi marriage. Can he marry again or does he need to get divorced to remarry ?
of course he can marry up to 4 without getting a divorce, orfi has nothing to do with that.
quote:I agree with you Ayisha on the quote.
Just because it's put about as islamic to marry 4 wives does not mean that it has anything to do with Quran, nor does FGM but they will all swear it is Islamic. Either this guy wants to marry again or he loves this woman here. I'm sure he will have brothers and sisters to give the required grandkids.
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
Sounds like sarah68 has a dilemma on her hands.
If i was ever in this situation I'd know what i would do want to do.
Cut my loses and get a divorce.
Better to have peace of Mind, than headache that would last forever.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
If he's happy to bring kids into the world on the basis he stated, I think you should be questioning what kind of guy he really is. I mean, what's he going to tell them? No, daddy can't stay tonight, he has to go home to his first wife. This is the one that he loves. He only married your mother to procreate. Truth be told, you were only born because his family forced him into it
How loved and cared for are they going to feel? Put yourself in their position, I mean, if he really does what he says and lives with you? TBH, he sounds incredibly selfish and shortsighted. I mean, it may shut his parents up in the shortterm but I can't imagine bringing a child into the world and planning to live apart from it. It isn't a pet or a household appliance. Kids are like sponges and they pick up on and remember everything.
I know it's very hard to feel any empathy for a child borne of him and another woman, but I think you should show some responsibility even if he won't and kick him to the kerb. It will only bring heartbreak for one/some/all.
Posted by weirdkitty (Member # 15365) on :
100% agree monkey. I always feel sorry for the children in these "marriages". It is devastating when a father can't be with his children through necessity, but a man who would happily procreate and be a "part time daddy", so that he can spend the rest of his time getting it on with another... Just awful, who would want a man who could do that to his children?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Exactly. It must be a living hell to be torn from your kid. But for it to be your plan A? Awful. I can understand why it might have been said to appease Sarah, but if that really is what her husband has in mind, "better off without him" doesn't even come close.
We get to choose our husbands and partners. We don't get that same privilege when it comes to our parents. They are a fundamental part of us. To be rejected by a partner is deeply upsetting, but ultimately recoverable. To be rejected by a parent, by the very fact that half their blood runs through your veins, goes beyond upsetting. It's psychologically damaging.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
im going to talk from the Egyptian point of view . or Egyptian`s men mentality.
if he is a nice husband to u . and wants to have a baby and u cant give it to him then let him find his way. coz to be honest children for men and women are more important than the wife or the husband in egypt. and this is fact.
if u really love him and u have the feeling that he loves u . then u will have to compromise and sacrifice for the sake of love. coz he will get married from another sooner or later. kids are very important in our society in Egypt . and people are not the same . there are people can sacrifice for the sake of love and others cant. but when families involved . that make a very big stress on both of men and women.
i would like to give u an example. if u r with a man who cant get u babies and u really love kids and want one . arent you going to ask him to divorce? and in this case u gonna leave him and go to another man. but for him now . he said that he will not divorce u and that means he loves u but he wants to have a kid to carry his name and his families`s name and that is very important in Egypt. so u gonna give him the excuse in this.
if u can cope with that, then i wish u will have a very happy life with him.
if u cant cope with that, then ask him the divorce in a civilized way.
look i have heard about women divorce their husband coz he is not able to make the love she expected. so she tries to find it with any other man. what do u think about a woman or a man who expected kids to carry his name after his death . just think about it and be wise.
if he will promise to be always fair between both of u then please dont ruin ur happy life. but if u cant cope with this , then dont stress urself and start a new life with some body else.
i hope u will not get confused of my post . but its all about u and ur happiness . take every one talk here as an opinion then u can get the experience which will let u make ur decision.
wish u all the best.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by sarah68: his family wanted him to marry an egyptian woman for children.
He says he cant say no to his mum and dad, althought no lady has been found yet.
Spineless and weak. I would dump him.
great u said I WOULD DUMP HIM. people are not the same . and i hope that she will find the happy life with him even after he gets married from another.
look SARAH. in Egypt there are so many people have 2 wives and some times more than 2 wives . and both of the wives are so happy with him. and in some cases they live together in the same house.
so in my opinion to be optimistic and see the light at the end of the tunnel .
or u can just have an agreement with him . u gonna give it a try if he gets married from an Egyptian girl and u have a happy life then its okay .at least he will give u the rest and the space that every English girl looking for in her marriage life ( which im not agree about ).
but if u dont feel happy then he should promise that he will give u the divorce. and that can be an agreement with a contract that u both have to sign.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
what do u think about a woman or a man who expected kids to carry his name after his death . just think about it and be wise.
This is what it really comes down to, carrying on the name after death. This is also the reason that you cannot adopt in Egypt. Egypt has tons of orphaned kids that would welcome a loving home, but the Egyptian male would rather have another wife to provide him his 'bloodline' than provide care for an orphaned or abandoned child. Didn't Muhammed himself have an adopted son?
quote:if he will promise to be always fair between both of u then please dont ruin ur happy life.
If he promises that he will be lying and going against Quran, Allah says He KNOWS you cannot do this. He has now ruined her happy life by wanting another wife, don't blame her for not being able to accept it.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
i never blamed her.
i said if she can cope with it then enjoy ur life with him.
if she cant cope with it then she can ask him the divorce.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: i never blamed her.
i said if she can cope with it then enjoy ur life with him.
if she cant cope with it then she can ask him the divorce.
you said 'dont ruin your happy life' which is saying that it is HER not being able to accept another woman that is ruining her happy life. As I said, he has already ruined it, not her.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
why on earth u just take the negative points of what i say.
u live in Egypt but u dont know whats going on between the families and the culture.
when a family gets involved then its more than about what he wants. coz his Dad has the right to have grand children.
if i cant get kids to my wife and she desperately needs one . i would give her the divorce and let her get what she wants . doesnt matter how much i love her but she needs things and i cant give it to her. so i have to sacrifice for her and let her find her way.
do u want her to divorce with oout even giving a try?
she said that she loves him so if she asked the divorce she will need so much time to forget him . so divorce will ruin the next 5 years of her life.
on the other hand she can find it is okay with her and dont ruin the next 2 or 3 or 4 years of her life.
she has the choice . and please dont force ur opinion on her and let her decide whether to continue or to divorce.
and for him i say that he must be strong and face his parents that he loves his wife now and cant do that to her.
but end of the day one part has to sacrifice.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: im going to talk from the Egyptian point of view . or Egyptian`s men mentality.
That's fine. But you also have to understand the British mentality. Polygamy is viewed, by 99.99% of the population, as a freak show. The upset to his family not providing a bloodline will be nothing in comparison to the disapproval of hers in fascilitating something which is socially completely unacceptable here. It just isn't allowed. Where people get married here multiple times they go to prison for it.
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: i would like to give u an example. if u r with a man who cant get u babies and u really love kids and want one . arent you going to ask him to divorce? and in this case u gonna leave him and go to another man.
Doesn't she also have the option to get a second husband to sire her children? Would the first husband be comfortable with her bedhopping between the two?
I'm not debating the rights and wrongs of either point of view, I'm just pointing out that this is the British way of thinking and it's kind of hard to relearn what's been drummed into you since birth.
It'd be no retreat and no surrender for me I'm afraid. He's offering her the opportunity to stay with someone whose being unfaithful to her on a permanent basis. That's aint much of an offer in my book Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: why on earth u just take the negative points of what i say.
because you denied saying it
quote:u live in Egypt but u dont know whats going on between the families and the culture.
Really? You are married to an English woman and you don't know that culture. We are discussing a Brit/Egyptian marriage here, it has 2 sides and 2 cultures.
quote:when a family gets involved then its more than about what he wants. coz his Dad has the right to have grand children.
Who said that? Why does he have a 'right' and the couple involved don't? What if it's his son that can't give children, will he abandon him? Will he blame him or blame Allah for not allowing him 'his right to have grand children'?
quote:if i cant get kids to my wife and she desperately needs one . i would give her the divorce and let her get what she wants . doesnt matter how much i love her but she needs things and i cant give it to her. so i have to sacrifice for her and let her find her way.
But you wouldn't allow her to sleep with another man to have a child while being married to you? Why not? This is exactly the same as this man is asking.
quote:do u want her to divorce with oout even giving a try?
You would divorce your wife if you couldn't give her kids, why not let her sleep with another man for kids and stay married to you?
quote:she said that she loves him so if she asked the divorce she will need so much time to forget him . so divorce will ruin the next 5 years of her life.
on the other hand she can find it is okay with her and dont ruin the next 2 or 3 or 4 years of her life.
You really think that spending her live KNOWING her husband is sleeping with anoher woman wont 'ruin her life' for the REST of her life?
quote:she has the choice . and please dont force ur opinion on her and let her decide whether to continue or to divorce.
Yes she has the choice and she came here asking for opinions, so don't tell me I can't give my opinion and you can!
quote:and for him i say that he must be strong and face his parents that he loves his wife now and cant do that to her.
Your opinion?
quote:but end of the day one part has to sacrifice.
Yes, he has to look at his 'rights' and she has to look at hers.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
thats very wise MONKEY.
i understand the British mentality and i know a man would go to prison if he had more than one wife but now she is in Egypt.
im not agree with him at all Monkey but i dont live in a fancy world . and i like to face the facts. families make their children marry the girl that the family choose not the man himself. and some times the families dont get involved in choosing their son`s wife. families are diffrent in this. but im talking about that guy who said ( my family wants me to marry an Egyptian to give me a baby ) so the family has a big influence on him. so im talking from this situation`s view.
for me i wouldnt marry a woman that my family choosed for me as i choosed my wife by my self.
so u all need to understand the culture in Egypt.
also she has the right to go to court and get divorced immediately if he marry another woman.
according to the low and the culture in Egypt that the woman is not allowed to marry 2 men in the same time.
i know it hurts her but she has to face the facts as it is . and not to live in a fancy world .
that man is not strong enough to face his family. so now what will be the solution? divorce? whilst she still love him is wasting her life.
if she is strong enough she can divorce.
as it seems like he never tried to fight for her with his family . but i give him excuse that he needs to have a kid and his family involved.
sorry if my post will hurt any of u but this is facts in Egypt.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: thats very wise MONKEY.
i understand the British mentality and i know a man would go to prison if he had more than one wife but now she is in Egypt.
She is not in Egypt and even if she were it does not make her Egyptian and there will still be 2 cultures in that relationship to consider.
quote:im not agree with him at all Monkey but i dont live in a fancy world . and i like to face the facts. families make their children marry the girl that the family choose not the man himself. and some times the families dont get involved in choosing their son`s wife. families are diffrent in this.
fact is that the Egyptian culture go against Allah and force marriage then say it is Islamic!
quote:but im talking about that guy who said ( my family wants me to marry an Egyptian to give me a baby ) so the family has a big influence on him. so im talking from this situation`s view.
for me i wouldnt marry a woman that my family choosed for me as i choosed my wife by my self.
so u all need to understand the culture in Egypt.
So if your English wife hadn't provided a child your family would be looking for an Egyptian wife for you, which some still would anyway!
quote:also she has the right to go to court and get divorced immediately if he marry another woman.
according to the low and the culture in Egypt that the woman is not allowed to marry 2 men in the same time.
maybe they should both move to a country where terms are a little more equal
quote:i know it hurts her but she has to face the facts as it is . and not to live in a fancy world .
she is trying to face facts, that's why she asked here.
quote:that man is not strong enough to face his family.
That is what everyone here has been saying instead of trying to justify it as 'his right' or 'his fathers right'
quote:so now what will be the solution? divorce? whilst she still love him is wasting her life.
Why is it? She will soon get over a spineless 2 timing rat, sooner than she will get over staying and allowing him to have a legalized mistress
quote:if she is strong enough she can divorce.
and if she is weak she will allow her husband to sleep with another woman, 'legally'
quote:as it seems like he never tried to fight for her with his family . but i give him excuse that he needs to have a kid and his family involved.
I think HE is the one using this excuse, you are just trying to justify it for him.
quote:sorry if my post will hurt any of u but this is facts in Egypt.
sad facts, yes.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Ooo a dude who lives his life dictated by his mum... A dude who is happy to have 2 women on the go!!! Cultural or not, is it worth the bother? I would dump his sorry ass and leave him to his baby making machine and go find a real man with a mind of his own who would love me for all I was and accepted me the way I am... Why waste your life chasing a man who has no respect for you???
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote: because you denied saying it
i really denied nothing but u just taking my words and understand it according to what digs u want to find in it .
quote:
Really? You are married to an English woman and you don't know that culture. We are discussing a Brit/Egyptian marriage here, it has 2 sides and 2 cultures.
quote:
and also u r talking about 2 other people that they r not u and ur husband. she might want the divorce and she might cant live without him . be wise analyze the situation first then give her the choice and dont give her what would u do. coz she is not u
quote: Who said that? Why does he have a 'right' and the couple involved don't? What if it's his son that can't give children, will he abandon him? Will he blame him or blame Allah for not allowing him 'his right to have grand children'?
i said that . and if u dont believe me then u can go to the streets in Luxor and ask about that issue. if it is his son they would have offered her the divorce if she really desperate to kids. i have a story that a woman was not happy with the sex that her husband give her although she has 4 children. so she asked the divorce and he gave it to her . it is in Egypt but i think most of u will not her about that coz u really have no idea what is into our culture . may be u can see things but there are lots of things u cant see. believe me .
quote: But you wouldn't allow her to sleep with another man to have a child while being married to you? Why not? This is exactly the same as this man is asking
quote: But you wouldn't allow her to sleep with another man to have a child while being married to you? Why not? This is exactly the same as this man is asking
ofcourse i wouldnt accept that. but if she was honest enough and came to me in a civilized way and said i need kids i would give her the divorce to have what she wants. and i would love and respect her so much for that action. no low and no religion would let the women have 2 husbands in the same time.
quote: You really think that spending her live KNOWING her husband is sleeping with anoher woman wont 'ruin her life' for the REST of her life?
Ayisha . u might dont do that but not all people like u . give her the choice to decide what suite her not what suite u .
quote: Yes she has the choice and she came here asking for opinions, so don't tell me I can't give my opinion and you can!
give ur opinion and dont force it on her . same like i did . i analyzed it and gave more than one opinion according to the difrent circumstances. and she has the right to choose what suite her.
quote: Yes, he has to look at his 'rights' and she has to look at hers.
again u r talking about what she has to do as u r forcing ur opinion on her. give her a space to use her brain and heart. people are not the same . not every one thinking ur way or having ur lifestyle.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I think that half of the problem is the vastly different attitudes towards marriage in the British and Egyptian cultures. I'm sure lots of Egyptians do marry for love, but it seems that a lot of the time this is secondary to that person ticking all the right boxes and being able to provide a nice lifestyle. I'm sorry if I've got the wrong impression and I sound like an ar$e, but that's just how it seems to me.
Here in the UK, the foundation of a marriage is love. This is expected. It's implicit. It's in your wedding vows. The fiance and fiancee go home and tell their family they're getting married. Their family don't ask about the earning potential of the groom nor the fertility of the bride (or vice versa). Don't get me wrong - they want to know, but they can't say it. It's sooooo rude. There isn't immediate concern over how the wedding will be paid for. What they want to be sure of is that the person their child marrying is a good one (same as Egyptian here, but...) and equally that their child will love and be loved.
I don't imagine any father in England being content for his son in law to take a second wife, no matter how honourable the reason. Implicit to loving his wife, a man is expected to be faithful to her. Again, it's in his wedding vows.
To take another wife is being unfaithful on a permanent basis. It would be utterly inconceivable to the majority of people here. It is like watching your husband having a lifelong affair. And there are some women who do this - look at Jackie Onasis - she put up wit her husbands having countless mistresses. But she was a career wife from what I can gather. I believe it would be a lot easier to turn a blind eye if your marriage had foundations other than love. If you had other priorities you put above love, such as him being a good provider, good social standing etc. then so long as he's still ticking those boxes, you might be able to sustain that blow in a society where this was deemed acceptable.
Here Sarah would be faced with a double whammy (even if she lived in Egypt - she must retain a family and friends here, after all). Not only would her husband have betrayed her (and make no bones about it, that's what he's done), but it will potentially alienate her from her friends and family at home. Not only has she got to persuade herself it's ok, but she's going to have to persuade all of them too. Never going to happen. He gets to have his cake and eat it and on top of the humiliation of him doing that, she will be judged by everyone at home.
If what I've said is offensive I'm sorry. I'm not justifying the way we think or putting down the way I perceive Egyptians to do things. I'm just saying they are very different and it takes more than five minutes to rewrite what has been learnt over the course of a lifetime. It's easier for me to sympathise with a Brit because I can relate to her way of thinking. That doesn't mean it's any more right than anyone else's. It just means it's the only one I know. Maybe we've got it all wrong. Love doesn't always conquer all and how many people come unstuck thinking it does? Maybe it is better to put the practicalities first... Maybe it's a more solid foundation to marriage than whim and fancy - who knows. Love can be fickle, after all.
The point, and it took a while to get to it, is surely this would have been discussed before marriage? And I bet he promised faithfully it would never, ever cross his mind. At the end of the day, even if founded on love, marriage is a contract. This would, I'm sure, have been a pretty vital term. Without fidelity, where are you? And if he's broken this term, what more? What are you left with except a piece of paper full of broken promises?
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: people are not the same . and i hope that she will find the happy life with him even after he gets married from another.
Look – this dude does not have the strength and character to stand up against tradition and his family's wishes. That's weakness.
He clearly does not care about other people's feelings. Pleasing his parents / society is more important to him than love for his wife. And he does not care about the feelings of the second wife-to-be either, he is just going to use her body – for sex and bearing children. That's selfishness.
This has nothing to do with different cultures. No self-respecting woman with brains would stay married to such a dude, doesn't matter if she is British or Egyptian.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
quote:But you wouldn't allow her to sleep with another man to have a child while being married to you? Why not? This is exactly the same as this man is asking
ofcourse i wouldnt accept that.
That doesn't answer the question. You would "of course" not accept that, but you are expecting the original poster to consider accepting it. Why? That's a double standard.
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
no low and no religion would let the women have 2 husbands in the same time.
Wrong. There are some cultures in which polyandry (a woman having more than one husband) is being practised.
quote:But you wouldn't allow her to sleep with another man to have a child while being married to you? Why not? This is exactly the same as this man is asking
ofcourse i wouldnt accept that.
That doesn't answer the question. You would "of course" not accept that, but you are expecting the original poster to consider accepting it. Why? That's a double standard.
That's the impossible part to reconcile. Why would it be any more acceptable for a woman to have to share her partner than it would for a man? Why should he object to his wife romping with someone else if it's ok for him to do it? Men are logical. Women are emotional. If anything, men are better equipped to handle it than we are. Living in the same house... My God, 2 British women would be gouging each others eyes out inside of ten seconds. Three seconds. A millisecond. I find it hard to believe there won't be jealousy wherever the wives come from. How many arguments to you hear of which start out with an accusation that the husband merely LOOKED at another woman? Maybe it's different here, but here it's a lot!
If it were me I'd divorce him for merely suggesting it. That would be betrayal enough already.
Posted by stayingput (Member # 14989) on :
I'm always a little perplexed that every other word out of an Egyptian's mouth is Insh'Allah, except for when it comes to a man and his perceived rights.
Nobody has a right to grandchildren.
Nobody has a right to children, for that matter.
You get what God gives you and you're either happy with it or you're not.
Unless you're a man, of course, then Insh'Allah goes out the window.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
"..Here in the UK, the foundation of a marriage is love. This is expected. It's implicit. It's in your wedding vows. The fiance and fiancee go home and tell their family they're getting married. Their family don't ask about the earning potential of the groom nor the fertility of the bride (or vice versa). Don't get me wrong - they want to know, but they can't say it. It's sooooo rude. There isn't immediate concern over how the wedding will be paid for. What they want to be sure of is that the person their child marrying is a good one (same as Egyptian here, but...) and equally that their child will love and be loved."
This is the way it is in our Western world,Monkey,not only UK.Including this side of America,too.Most people concern is that the couple truly loves each other.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
I'll chime in. The OP should look at it this way, if her favorite female relative fell in love, got married, couldn't have children, so her husband decides to take another wife … how would the OP feel. Would you accept that for your favorite female relative? It's devastating. But I think people are able to endure more than they are given credit for.
However wouldn't one true one be shattered? Then again, love is relative, personally, and in years past I used to joke on these boards about taking multiple wives, but realistically, it would undermine the one thing I love most … my wife, which ultimately will be my demise.
Read this however you will. I am neither for nor against polygamy. But polygamy has no place in true love, convenience never does.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777:
quote: because you denied saying it
i really denied nothing but u just taking my words and understand it according to what digs u want to find in it .
It may be a language problem Pablo, but you did say that SHE would ruin HER happy life. I am not digging, just pointing out what you said and saying it's not HER ruining HER happy life, which I am assuming is not happy now as HER husband told her HE will marry be sleeping with another woman. Your post is saying pretty much accept it and stay happy!
quote:
quote: Really? You are married to an English woman and you don't know that culture. We are discussing a Brit/Egyptian marriage here, it has 2 sides and 2 cultures.
and also u r talking about 2 other people that they r not u and ur husband. she might want the divorce and she might cant live without him . be wise analyze the situation first then give her the choice and dont give her what would u do. coz she is not u
I have analyzed the situation first and she asked here for advice on what we would do. Yes maybe SHE can't live without him and maybe she can. Of course it's her choice in the end as it's her life, and she has probably already made that choice as she is not here again after only 2 posts. It is not MY or YOUR job to give her any choice, we are not involved in this at all. She came for advice and is getting it. You are doing the Egy man side and I and others are doing the Brit woman side. There are after all 2 sides to this whatever country they are in.
quote:
quote: Who said that? Why does he have a 'right' and the couple involved don't? What if it's his son that can't give children, will he abandon him? Will he blame him or blame Allah for not allowing him 'his right to have grand children'?
i said that . and if u dont believe me then u can go to the streets in Luxor and ask about that issue. if it is his son they would have offered her the divorce if she really desperate to kids.
So according to YOU the father has a right to grand children? No one has rights to anything as has been stated by stayingput. You get what Allah wills. Kids have a right to be protected from harm but how many are sticking the baby on the front of a motorbike here?
quote:i have a story that a woman was not happy with the sex that her husband give her although she has 4 children.
Hate to break it to you but women are different to men in that just because a women becomes pregnant it does not mean she orgasmed or enjoyed sex in any way at all. You may need to think about that one.
quote: so she asked the divorce and he gave it to her . it is in Egypt but i think most of u will not her about that coz u really have no idea what is into our culture . may be u can see things but there are lots of things u cant see. believe me .
This has nothing to do with culture, any woman that is forced to sleep with an animal of a man will seek divorce if she has the means to. Also none of this is anything to do with what I can see or not in this culture.
quote:
quote: But you wouldn't allow her to sleep with another man to have a child while being married to you? Why not? This is exactly the same as this man is asking
ofcourse i wouldnt accept that. but if she was honest enough and came to me in a civilized way and said i need kids i would give her the divorce to have what she wants. and i would love and respect her so much for that action.
but what if she loved you and wanted to stay married to you? Why is it acceptable for a man to have another woman for kids and not her to have another man for kids and stay with you?
quote:no low and no religion would let the women have 2 husbands in the same time.
already been addressed by Dalia.
quote:
quote: You really think that spending her live KNOWING her husband is sleeping with anoher woman wont 'ruin her life' for the REST of her life?
Ayisha . u might dont do that but not all people like u . give her the choice to decide what suite her not what suite u .
She asked for advice, she is getting it. It has nothing to do with me what she chooses to do and I am not the only one here saying these things, why do you only pick on me for saying it?
quote:
quote: Yes she has the choice and she came here asking for opinions, so don't tell me I can't give my opinion and you can!
give ur opinion and dont force it on her . same like i did . i analyzed it and gave more than one opinion according to the difrent circumstances. and she has the right to choose what suite her.
I have given my opinion like you have, I am not and CANNOT force this woman to do anything she doesn't want to.
quote:
quote: Yes, he has to look at his 'rights' and she has to look at hers.
again u r talking about what she has to do as u r forcing ur opinion on her. give her a space to use her brain and heart. people are not the same . not every one thinking ur way or having ur lifestyle.
And not everyone thinks your way or has your lifestyle. I am giving an opinion same as you are so why are you accusing me of forcing anything on her? How can I force her to do anything like his parents are forcing him to do?
I know women that are married either as a second wife or a first wife and they made their choices. I know women that are the only wife but accept there may come a day that their husband will want children and will have to make that choice then. I also know a woman that was married happily for over 7 years when she was then told by her husband he would take another wife in Egypt for children and wanted her to divorce him so that he could use his newly acquired British passport to bring that wife to UK and they could all live happily in the same house, in UK and then he would remarry the British wife 'Islamically' again.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
"..Here in the UK, the foundation of a marriage is love. This is expected. It's implicit. It's in your wedding vows. The fiance and fiancee go home and tell their family they're getting married. Their family don't ask about the earning potential of the groom nor the fertility of the bride (or vice versa). Don't get me wrong - they want to know, but they can't say it. It's sooooo rude. There isn't immediate concern over how the wedding will be paid for. What they want to be sure of is that the person their child marrying is a good one (same as Egyptian here, but...) and equally that their child will love and be loved.""..Here in the UK, the foundation of a marriage is love. This is expected. It's implicit. It's in your wedding vows. The fiance and fiancee go home and tell their family they're getting married. Their family don't ask about the earning potential of the groom nor the fertility of the bride (or vice versa). Don't get me wrong - they want to know, but they can't say it. It's sooooo rude. There isn't immediate concern over how the wedding will be paid for. What they want to be sure of is that the person their child marrying is a good one (same as Egyptian here, but...) and equally that their child will love and be loved...."
Brilliant post Monkey. Since I've lived here I have met only one or two Egyptian couples who married for love. The rest were unashamed box tickers. I have met more happy couples in which one partner is Western. So... what's to be jealous of? I do agree to a great extent with Pablo. If this lady can deal with being a co-wife [and as long as she is not expected to subsidise the happy new family!] and she knows that the guy does really love her, why not give it a whirl. Young men are under an extraordinary amount to pressure to conform and obey their parents here and this is not reserved for upper Egyptian farm boys. And we ARE here in another culture, we do have to be prepared to accept ideas that seem alien to us. Personally, I don't think I'd mind being a co-wife. As long as the other one did all the domestic stuff, washing his socks etc, ironing!!cooking unspeakable things like molokya and offal. I'm pretty sure 3 days a week of having fun, knowing that the other marriage was a traditional box ticking formality, wouldn't faze me in terms of jealousy. But then, I'm NOT actually faced with with the reality of it.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: I'll chime in. The OP should look at it this way, if her favorite female relative fell in love, got married, couldn't have children, so her husband decides to take another wife … how would the OP feel. Would you accept that for your favorite female relative? It's devastating. But I think people are able to endure more than they are given credit for.
However wouldn't one true one be shattered? Then again, love is relative, personally, and in years past I used to joke on these boards about taking multiple wives, but realistically, it would undermine the one thing I love most … my wife, which ultimately will be my demise.
Read this however you will. I am neither for nor against polygamy. But polygamy has no place in true love, convenience never does.
Well said Exiiled. That is exactly why the Egyptian people I refered to earlier are still married after over 10 years with no children and no 2nd wife, because they love each other.
Posted by Dilemma (Member # 16672) on :
"But polygamy has no place in true love, convenience never does"
I agree with u totally Exiiled.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
"But polygamy has no place in true love, convenience never does"
I don't hold with polygamy. However, neither can I fully agree with the above statement. IMHO, "true love" has many different faces. Just as Exiled truly loves his wife, surely he would also truly love his mother, son, daughter and father? Even a person with no family connections can elicit "true love" from someone, but it isn't exactly the same as that which we experience with our wife. It surely follows that a man is capable of "truly loving" more than one wife, although I cannot imagine that I ever could. It is quite obvious that many arranged marriages are very successful, and I believe that this is so because of a determination on the two participants to make it work. This determination, of itself, is an expression of love which we may not be familiar with, but does that mean it is not (or less) valid? In these situations, which are foreign to our own cultures, it is patently obvious that that love, more often than not, grows into the sort of love which we also experience after being married for a while. It's not the initial sharing of new passions, but the ever more fulfilling passion of soul-mates who feel lost when not in close proximity. I'm sure that the polygamous marriages of some of my Muslim acquaintances share the same kind of initial commitment and the same kind of "grown into" "true love"!
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Probably best if we think of it as 'love lite'. Most of us have had an inkling of the different range of commitment compared to our own experience. How many times have you related a story, or watched a Western movie with an Egyptian friend and noticed the look of bewilderment when you have to explain 'But he loves her, of course he would do that ...' Do the old 'Last place in the liferaft' test. A friend told me he would throw out one of his kids to save his mother!
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
An Egyptian guy (just a friend ) once told me the order of priority is (1) God (2) Mother (3) Father .... (29) Wife.
When I was teaching English conversation classes to adults a couple of years ago, it was made quite clear to me by the women in the class that no matter how much they might love a guy, if he didn't satisfy certain class/income/prospects requirements then they wouldn't even consider him as a potential husband. In fact, one near-romance I nearly had with an Egyptian guy, his 3rd sentence ever spoken to me was "I have a good job here with prospects"!!!!
In the British Upper and Upper-Middle classes, marriage along the 'alliance of money, property, breeding purposes etc' was the norm until probably quite recently. It was only the plebs who married for love. Even in my late teens I remember parents sniffing out any likely prospects for possession of a degree, father who ran his own business or whatever!
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Probably more true thanyou would think shanta. After number 3, many guys I know would list Nancy Agram, 'my Mercedes', Ayman Nour,the dog, numerous bellydancer girlfriends ... When my husband and I came to live here, he remarked that most of the organisation, attitudes, and culture seemed to have been designed by and for, a group of fourteen year old boys. But ... back to topic. I really like Orfi. Gives a vague sense of legitimacy, and leaves the woman involved with a lot of freedom to decide how much or little she can agree to. Unless you are already Muslim, unless you intend to have children, unless you and your family have known this guy for decades, I would say NEVER marry him for real. The 'real' marriage as practiced here, IMHO does not carry the same moral guarantee of 'richer for poorer .. 'til death do us part' etc that we as westerners are used to, so Orfi is adequate, and safer. And if you are the Orfi wife, and you find his polygamy intolerable, tear up your paper and walk away.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: Probably more true thanyou would think shanta. After number 3, many guys I know would list Nancy Agram, 'my Mercedes', Ayman Nour,the dog, numerous bellydancer girlfriends ... When my husband and I came to live here, he remarked that most of the organisation, attitudes, and culture seemed to have been designed by and for, a group of fourteen year old boys. But ... back to topic. I really like Orfi. Gives a vague sense of legitimacy, and leaves the woman involved with a lot of freedom to decide how much or little she can agree to. Unless you are already Muslim, unless you intend to have children, unless you and your family have known this guy for decades, I would say NEVER marry him for real. The 'real' marriage as practiced here, IMHO does not carry the same moral guarantee of 'richer for poorer .. 'til death do us part' etc that we as westerners are used to, so Orfi is adequate, and safer. And if you are the Orfi wife, and you find his polygamy intolerable, tear up your paper and walk away.
Its registered, she can't tear up the paper and walk away. A divorce through the courts is the only way with a registered orfi, it's not the white paper tear it up kind.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
I bet getting free of even a registered Orfi is a lot easier than an arrangement that is valid outside of Egypt. Not many family court judges take these things seriously, especially in the case of a foreign 'wife'. le100 to the registrar would probably do the trick, even if a shark lawyer tells a different story. And to be honest, unless you plan on running off to marry again, no rush, get the guy to do the 'divorce' thing. Least he can do under the circumstances. Why on earth do people register them anyway?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
to divorce from a registered Orfi, he has to sign, he has to divorce her as far as I'm aware. It would be a lot easier to get out of a ministry one I think, as she would have a right to divorce him. Right to divorce for a woman is a bit foggy here!
When they are registered they become a legal Egyptian marriage under the Islamic Law of this country, but even wives with other husbands back home still have registered Orfi so I dunno!
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Frankly, I wouldn't lose any sleep over an Orfi paper. If [f'il mishmish] someone wanted to marry me, and he wanted a registered Orfi, I would insist on a more informal kind, unless he was promising me thousands in gold in the case of divorce!!! 'If you want commitment baby, I'll be as committed as your Egyptian wife'. But, in the case of the OP, I hope it works out ok for her, and maybe, if she was my bestest friend, I'd suggest that if she chooses to stay with the guy, she get her husband to 'deregister' the paper to make future decisions easier. Just in case... I bet he really DOES love her, lots of guys here are knocked out by the simplicity of dealing with foreign women. And their unconditional love. I'm not a total cynic you know.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
@ourluxor. True love. Not merely truly loving someone. But one true love. Any man, any person, who claims that they can have more than one true love is BS-ing. How can a heart and mind be genuinely occupied by more than one true love? It's illogical. You are with the woman of your dreams, you are happy to see every moment of her, but yet there is another woman? Sorry but that negates true love. How can you make love to a woman, kiss every part of her, worship her, and have another true love? It's illogical.
@Shanta These are women who are desperate for security and what they are saying is they won't entertain a dude unless he is from their circle/status because it will help keep them there (status). That's all it is, does anyone blame them, what are their other options, a man who will be stagnantly poor, a man that can never climb the status ladder in Egypt. Poor in Egypt is not simply poor, it is dreamless poor. And that's the worst kind of poor, it doesn't matter how smart, good looking, intelligent a person is, chances are if you are born poor you will die poor. Visit the universities where many couples start to get serious, the chicks from certain status mingle with their own, they are afraid and insecure. If Egypt was wealthier, if dreams materialized then these women will most likely think differently and probably similar to women in wealthier nations.
@moNing “The 'real' marriage as practiced here, IMHO does not carry the same moral guarantee of 'richer for poorer .. 'til death do us part' etc that we as westerners are used to“
No culture has a claim to "moral gurantee." Are there statistics, data, or anything tangible that you can use to back up such a claim? There are loads of western marriages that crumple each and every day because of lack of “moral guarantee” which is basically lack of love. The hundreds of thousands of broken homes, with single mothers that the father walked out on is one example.
Moral guarantee/love transcends western/eastern/black/white. No culture has any claim whatsoever to “moral guarantee” but individual couples from any nation/culture whether it is Egypt, Brazil or the UK can attest to such moral guarantee/love if they truly love each other.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
...who claims that they can have more than one true love is BS-ing. How can a heart and mind be genuinely occupied by more than one true love? It's illogical. You are with the woman of your dreams, you are happy to see every moment of her, but yet there is another woman?
I think you are assuming that a guy who feels pressured into marrying a girl [possibly at least suggested by family members] to provide grandchildren, is somehow going to view her as the love of his life. Not many Egyptians pretend that they fell in love with a 'suitable' spouse in the few weeks in which meeting, arranging the financial aspects, planning a big engagement party, and during this time spending hardly any time alone together. Love is not the point of Egyptian marriages, there is far more at stake. 'Love' here isn't quite what you and I know. Not the walking into walls, breathless, reckless, completely blown away, etc etc feeling I have experienced. Yesterday, my cab driver told me he loved me, asked for my hand in marriage. Boy, he looked so sincere too. People here in Egypt use the word 'nervous' to mean something quite different from the way I would use it. A common error.The phrase 'I love you' is another I think. 'I love you ' is a compliment. I know a young Egyptian guy, met a nice girl both virgins, and he fell madly in love with her. Trimmed his beard, showered her with gifts etc His family and friends could not believe it. [Why not?] Didn't work out, insufficient shapka deal. I'm sure loads of Egyptian couples experience love, especially after a few months of marriage, but it is not intrinsic to the procedure of getting a spouse. In Western societies, mostly, the intention at least, is for it to be a permanent deal. Here, the possibility of divorce is introduced even before an official engagement. In other words, in a traditional Western wedding ceremony, at the very least one can assume that the bride and groom actually love each other on the wedding day.
Posted by Dilemma (Member # 16672) on :
"Love is not the point of Egyptian marriages"
I found your statement to be so true.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Exiled, I agree, I agree! What I was trying to get across was that for some folk in other cultures their idea of "true love" isn't exactly the same as yours, or mine. Nevertheless, it's as close as they'll ever get. I could go on to promulgate "my theory" as to why this is so, but as it would necessarily touch on the source of love, the religious thought police of ES would have me in front of the "inquisitor"!
Posted by AmbiBambi (Member # 18389) on :
When my husband and I first got married..we had something similar to this. Before we got married we planned to have children,even though I am Christian and he is Muslim. But after we got married we ran into some conflict, regarding what religion our children would be..naturally we both wanted our own way. And eventually he absolutely refused the idea of us having children, Since I am from a country he didn't have open access to come and o as he pleased, so if we separated in the future he didn't want his kids living away fro him potentially. and he even brought up the idea of him taking another wife, because he was under the impression he was obligated as part of his religion to have children, and he clearly couldn't with me(and no matter how much he loves me he has to answer to god above all else). Which my response was....by all means...just leave the divorce papers on your way out the door.. I completely understand feeling a need to put god and his will ahead of anything on earth, but that is not something I could accept. But he actually did a ton of research and ask for many fatawas on our situation. And they all came back the same that if he wasn't required to have children period, and he didn't "have" to take another wife if he felt he couldn't have children with me. It was just an option. But my husband never had the desire to have another wife or leave me to do so. He said I ment more to him then a child he hasn't even had yet. SO once he was sure that religiously it was fine for him to stay with me even that we had no intention of having children it was never an issue again. It was definitely never anything to do with his "parents" he would never allow his parents to medal in the private matters of our marriage. and I don't know why anyone would stay with a man that let his "mommy" dictate or pressure my husband to make decisions contrary to what we have decided.
I suggest you ask your husband to ask for a fatwa on the situation and he will see that it isn't his religious obligation to do what he is saying..and if he still try's to do it at least you will know he is doing it because he wants to not out of religious guilt. Which should help you to make your decision wither to stay or not...good luck
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Well said Ambi
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: ...who claims that they can have more than one true love is BS-ing. How can a heart and mind be genuinely occupied by more than one true love? It's illogical. You are with the woman of your dreams, you are happy to see every moment of her, but yet there is another woman?
I think you are assuming that a guy who feels pressured into marrying a girl [possibly at least suggested by family members] to provide grandchildren, is somehow going to view her as the love of his life. Not many Egyptians pretend that they fell in love with a 'suitable' spouse in the few weeks in which meeting, arranging the financial aspects, planning a big engagement party, and during this time spending hardly any time alone together. Love is not the point of Egyptian marriages, there is far more at stake. 'Love' here isn't quite what you and I know. Not the walking into walls, breathless, reckless, completely blown away, etc etc feeling I have experienced. Yesterday, my cab driver told me he loved me, asked for my hand in marriage. Boy, he looked so sincere too. People here in Egypt use the word 'nervous' to mean something quite different from the way I would use it. A common error.The phrase 'I love you' is another I think. 'I love you ' is a compliment. I know a young Egyptian guy, met a nice girl both virgins, and he fell madly in love with her. Trimmed his beard, showered her with gifts etc His family and friends could not believe it. [Why not?] Didn't work out, insufficient shapka deal. I'm sure loads of Egyptian couples experience love, especially after a few months of marriage, but it is not intrinsic to the procedure of getting a spouse. In Western societies, mostly, the intention at least, is for it to be a permanent deal. Here, the possibility of divorce is introduced even before an official engagement. In other words, in a traditional Western wedding ceremony, at the very least one can assume that the bride and groom actually love each other on the wedding day.
No I am not assuming anything. My point was clear, there can only be one true love. Whether she is or isn't wasn't my point.
"Love is not the point of Egyptian marriages, there is far more at stake."
Wrong. And to generalize in such a matter such ignorance of the complexities of Egyptian society. From firsthand experience. I have witness such situations (and more).
1.A tea boy (cleaned office) that worked for me, a lad who was from the Saeed, had to marry a girl his family arranged for him. To him there was no way out. It wasn't about love at all.
2.A friend of mine who owns a shop in a mall, married a girl who ran another shop on the same floor. The shop belonged to her family. He and she were as lovey-dovey as any couples can be. The dated, went out all the time, and even used my apartment on more than one occasion to be intimate. Her family was against her marrying him but eventually accepted. They fell in love and married for love.
"Yesterday, my cab driver told me he loved me, asked for my hand in marriage. Boy, he looked so sincere too.
People here in Egypt use the word 'nervous' to mean something quite different from the way I would use it. A common error.The phrase 'I love you' is another I think. 'I love you ' is a compliment."
This is normal, as those words are in English. To say “I love you” (bihibek) in Egyptian language is much more meaningful to most Egyptians.
"I'm sure loads of Egyptian couples experience love, especially after a few months of marriage, but it is not intrinsic to the procedure of getting a spouse."
Again you are wrong and generalizing again. You fail to accept/understand the complexities of Egyptian society. Yes there are marriages for convenience but love also prevails and is the reason why many couples do decide to marry.
Your view and understanding of Egyptian society seems so limited in scope. It's as if you don't know young couples living contemporary lives in Cairo. And as if you don't know women who actually have a choice of whether or not they marry this guy or that guy. As if you don't know Egyptian women who were wooed, yes wooed and courted by a man that her family knows nothing about. It is called dating and there is plenty of it in Egypt. Many of those couples you see walking hand in hand in the streets of Cairo, well most of them their families know nothing about that. Yes it might progress to the point, of meeting the father and the father will say .. “well how do you intend to support my daughter an family?”
"In Western societies, mostly, the intention at least, is for it to be a permanent deal. Here, the possibility of divorce is introduced even before an official engagement.
In other words, in a traditional Western wedding ceremony, at the very least one can assume that the bride and groom actually love each other on the wedding day."
The intention of many marriages in Egypt is that the marriage will exist in this life and also the hereafter but 40% end in divorce, this rate is a fact.
Western marriages actually dominate the divorce factor though. It can be 40% in Egypt but in some western countries divorce is 50% after 3 years and 70% after 10 years. Those are facts, not assumptions you enjoy sharing.
I hope this doesn't seemed like a tit for tat, and really I do think it is a waste of time because your perception of Egyptian society is so narrow.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
"Love is not the point of Egyptian marriages, there is far more at stake."
Wrong. And to generalize in such a matter such ignorance of the complexities of Egyptian society.
Totally stand by what I wrote. If you have heard any of the countless arguments to explain the high divorce rates in Egypt, you would kmow that the 'traditionalists' will say that these marriages fail because of money problems, caused by couples being driven by 'love' rather than a thought to the future. More progressive Egyptians will tell you that they fail because the marriage was determined on financial, class, and religious compatability etc, and 'love' did not 'come with time'. Dozens of Egyptians have told me that they overwhelmingly believe that Western marriages fail because Westerners marry for love, and 'there are SO many other considerations that make a good marriage.' When guys like the OP's partner say things like 'my parents are pressuring me to marry an Egyptian girl, to produce a family' these guys are not lying, [unless as occasionally happens, they already have an Egyptian wife] there is family pressure from the penthouses of Cairo, to the farmhouses of upper Egypt. It is part of society here. I know the CEO of a car import business who will not dare to smoke a cigarette in front of his father, and I bet you have met people like him. And I have met quite a few young men who I am told, have had informal Orfi sex with fellow students, [oh yeah, crazy about her...] but marry an Egyptian girl who would do that? In many cases,'No way baby'. You simply can't judge anyone's commitment to everlasting love on whether they are willing to sneak off and 'be intimate'.
Anyway, I pretty much think that your examples merely reinforce what I said.I was not generalising; Love is not necessary in Egyption marriages, it is hoped that it will grow in time.
Posted by sarah68 (Member # 18469) on :
thanks for everyone who has sent in their opinions. He now has said they are getting married in june or july and I will be back there in May although I will come home. He has said she is nice and I would like her. Is he mad. Also he still wants me to live with him and visit her occasionally. She is in agreement. I asked him if he loved her and he said No I have only known her a month. Any advice would be grateful
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
@ourluxur, great that we agree on something. Maybe we should agree more to make the replies nice and short.
@moNing, You can stand by whatever you wrote. I will however call out anyone who tries to portray Egypt in a narrow way generalized way. To reiterate, Egyptian society is diverse and people marry for a wide range of reasons. You make sweeping generalizations as if you were an authority. You are one person, and your perception is evident, simple and narrow. So stand by your beliefs, but this is a public forum and it‘s not quite dead, so don’t be surprised when someone contradicts your perception of Egyptian society.
@sarah, why get yourself involved in this nonsense? Don't you think you deserve better. Don't you think that people deserve one partner and one partner only? Life is complicated as is, why invite more complications.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Don't go. Do you really need your heart broken in person? Maybe so. If they have kids together he's never going to stick to what he's telling you now. You'll end up playing gooseberry in your own marriage. It sounds like he's giving you no choice in this whatsoever. I thought he was supposed to get your permission? I thought those were YOUR rights?
When people start banging on about rights in a marriage, there's always trouble IMO.
Look I know nothing about nothing - I don't have a crystal ball and hey, ultimately maybe you could accept these crumbs he's throwing you. But to me he sounds like a complete a$$ and personally, if it were me, I'd rip out his still beating heart for the mere suggestion of this nonsense. Walk away with a teensie bit of self-respect, while you still can. No man is worth sharing - if they think they are - they definitely aint.
Don't let me sway you though. Do what you think is right.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarah68: Any advice would be grateful
Lady, you got two pages of advice and many different opinions. The decision is yours to make.
From your posts, I gather you don't really agree with this sort of arrangement. Then why are you even considering it? I said my opinion, and I'll state it again: The guy is selfish, weak, and immoral. He cares about society's expectations more than about your or her feelings. Or those of his children, should they have any. (There are studies out there proving that polygamous relationships harm everyone involved, most of all the kids.)
I know some people on here think I sound harsh. But when you live in Egypt you observe situations like this all the time, and they always end up with heartbreak. I have no respect whatsoever for men like this; they want to have their cake and eat it too, and they hide behind religion and culture to justify it. It's sickening.
As has been mentioned in this discussion, people have different expectations regarding marriage and relationships, and if a man wants to live with two women, or a woman with two men (yes, that also happens), then I see nothing wrong with that as long as everyone is truly content with the situation. I don't see that in your case though; it's clear that you don't feel comfortable about this, so how in the world do you expect it to work out?
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
In your original post dated the 4th you said he had just told you his family wanted him to take on another wife but they hadn't found one yet now he's telling you he's known her a month So he has lied to you unless I have misread your post. It does sound very much like he wants his cake and eat it too! Personally there is no way I could share my hubby with another woman and as heartbreaking as it would be I would have to walk away. I am unable to have children too, a fact my hubby knew when we first got together and for him something that was not an issue. It doesn't sound like you are happy with the situation and it would seem to me only one choice but I agree with Dahlia you have had alot of responses to your dilemma and only you can make the decision whether to stay or go. Wishing you all the best whatever you decide to do.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
In my experience in Luxor, it would seem that almost every marriage (other than business wives, of course) is arranged by the family. It also seems that the business wives have no say in the husband taking an Egyptian wife for breeding purposes, she either accepts it or slings her hook! One or two Western women of my acquaintance have eventually decided (apparently) that half a husband is better than no husband at all, and have resigned themselves to sharing the man with some cousin or other. It all depends how desperate the woman is, are you that desperate, Sarah68?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Jan 4th "althought no lady has been found yet."
Jan 8th "I asked him if he loved her and he said No I have only known her a month."
He has been lying to you for well over a month about something so important as this and you think when he tells you he loves you he is telling the truth?
he has discussed you with her, according to him, so he set that side of it out before bothering to tell you. He is telling you now because you are due to come. He told you that no one had been found yet to see how you take that initial part of the news, more will come as you carry on accepting what bits he chooses to give you and when. Possibly he is already married and just introducing that to you 'gently'
As for him living with you and visiting her, that will not happen. She will become part of his family and will live in the family home and he will live with her and visit you when you are in town. How is he going to 'live' with you if you don't live here?
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
If they're already engaged, isn't it basically a done deal anyway? If the date is set, doesn't it mean they're engaged?
I can't conceivably imagine why you would want to stay with a ratbag like that. As another poster said on another thread who'd been through similar crap "words, words - empty meaningless words". Tune them out. Look at the actions instead - they speak a lot louder. It's a catalogue of BS, paving the way for much more, should you choose to accept it.
Put it this way, if you had an English husband and he proposed taking up a mistress, for whatever reason, what would you say to him? And if he turned around and said, sorry sweetheart, my parents have already picked one out. She's nice though - you'll like her when you meet her... WTF???
The only way I can reconcile you even contemplating this doesn't boil down to 'love'. Because to love and be loved you have to love yourself first, if that makes sense. I think a happy relationship only tends to strike up when you're in a happy place to start off with - on your own. Personally, I know there's a pattern in my past where when I've felt crappy about me I've only attracted crap into my life. I can only assume that on some level you think he's too good for you - if you leave, you're ruined for other men forever - you'll never meet anyone like him. You know, there are however many billion men in the world. Odds are you could do better - A LOT better by the sounds of it. Where I am now, I love my fella to the ends of the earth, and I'd do anything for him. He's Mr Wonderful. But if he pulled a stunt on me like the one you've described I'd ditch him in a heartbeat. Because he wouldn't be Mr Wonderful anymore - he's gone. Staying with him would be like living with a ghost.
Sure I'd be devastated but life goes on. Maybe something better is right around the corner. When one door closes, another one opens.
As Exiiled said, you need to try to disassociate yourself from the situation and look at it objectively. Picture you as a little girl, I don't know, riding a bike for the first time without stabilisers; your piano recital; your school play; hitting top grades; passing your driving test; getting a degree - whatever points in your life made your parents proud. Now ask yourself this question. Are you happy to sit back and allow that girl to be treated this way, or does she deserve a lot better??
**clears throat** Right, that's enough soppy nonsense from me. My northern family would disown me if they heard me gushing like that.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: Where I am now, I love my fella to the ends of the earth, and I'd do anything for him. He's Mr Wonderful. But if he pulled a stunt on me like the one you've described I'd ditch him in a heartbeat. Because he wouldn't be Mr Wonderful anymore - he's gone. Staying with him would be like living with a ghost.
Sure I'd be devastated but life goes on. Maybe something better is right around the corner. When one door closes, another one opens.
I second that with bells on!
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
Sarah stay at home and save your Money.
He will be asking you to send him Money Next!!!
I have to agree with Ayisha.
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
Your living in uk sarah right!
Why work hard all year round, and then go to a man who already has taken another wife.
Your be there for 2 weeks or more on hoilday, seeing him when ever you can, becauuse his wife with children will come first.
Dont waste your Money on this.
Listen to yourself and not HIM.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
Actually dont have the time to reply all the quotes form YOU AYISHA. it was too much LOL.
but i think i didnt defend that guy at all and didnt justify anything for him and im not going to do.
all my posts can be concluded in 3 points and that was my point of view about this issue.
1- to continue in her marriage if she really in love with him and cant live without him. ( she only can decide that AYISHA )
2- she gets the divorce if she cant cope with that situation. ( also that is her decision )
3- just to give a try for a short time.
i gave her choices and never forced her to do any thing and that was my opinion. But you AYISHA decided for her to have the divorce.
by the way i dont support him at all Coz i wouldn't do that to my wife .and i would fight for her to the end.
AYISHA people dont have the same mentality like u and every one runs his life according to what suites himself . for me I LOVE MY WIFE SO MUCH AND WOULDNT THINK TO HURT HER AT ALL
SADLY NOT ALL PEOPLE LIKE ME HAHAHA LOL
i hope that she will have the decision which will make her happy. what ever it will be.
best of luck to u all
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: Actually dont have the time to reply all the quotes form YOU AYISHA. it was too much LOL.
No problem PABLO_7777, LOL.
quote:but i think i didnt defend that guy at all and didnt justify anything for him and im not going to do.
Good for you
quote:all my posts can be concluded in 3 points and that was my point of view about this issue.
1- to continue in her marriage if she really in love with him and cant live without him. ( she only can decide that AYISHA )
Yes I agree PABLO_7777, of course only SHE can decide that.
quote:2- she gets the divorce if she cant cope with that situation. ( also that is her decision )
3- just to give a try for a short time.
Is number 3 her decision or your decision she HAS to follow?
quote:i gave her choices and never forced her to do any thing and that was my opinion. But you AYISHA decided for her to have the divorce.
Oh I see, those were the choices YOU gave her PABLO_7777 when it's not YOUR place to give her choices. I have decided NOTHING for her, she can do that for herself. YOU gave her a set of choices, I'm sure SHE can decide what HER choices are, I said what I would do, nothing more.
You have obviously skipped over everyone elses posts here and decided for some unkown reason to pick at ME.
quote:by the way i dont support him at all Coz i wouldn't do that to my wife .and i would fight for her to the end.
good for you.
quote:AYISHA people dont have the same mentality like u and every one runs his life according to what suites himself .
I think you'd now better clarify what YOU think my 'mentality' is.
quote:for me I LOVE MY WIFE SO MUCH AND WOULDNT THINK TO HURT HER AT ALL
SADLY NOT ALL PEOPLE LIKE ME HAHAHA LOL
good for you on the first part but at this point I am inclined to think Alhamdulillah to the second part. HAHAHA LOL
quote:i hope that she will have the decision which will make her happy. what ever it will be.
best of luck to u all
Same here, whoopy doo we found SOME common ground PABLO_7777
Posted by sarah68 (Member # 18469) on :
I would like to thank everyone for their help and advice. I have decided to divorce him because he tell lies and I dont trust him anymore.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
Sarah: to be honest I believe you have made the right decision. I know it'll be hard at the beginning but you deserve more in your life. Take care and look to a fresh start.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Ditto what Y@H said. I don't think anything you do now can salvage the relationship - only make it more prolonged and painful from your point of view. Here's to a new start. It's terrifying when it's forced on you like that, but I'm a firm believer in everything happening for a reason. There are a world of possibilities out there. This isn't the end, but a new beginning.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
ES deserves a pat on the back. The advice given to Sarah was truly great. Really covered all angles. I mean this dude isn't exactly King Henry VIII who desperately needed a heir. Ok maybe that's a bad example, but then again maybe not as they're both unethical. The cherry on the top is to call his momma and tell her “khalee ibnak leck”/keep your son to yourself. Pat yourself on the back Sarah, you removed yourself from an undeserving and unappreciative family. And as Monkey said all bets and any illusion of harmony would have been off after he has children with his second wife.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Sarah congratulations on making a decision. Look forward now, you deserve better than this one was prepared to give you.
I thought of something else yesterday. There are actually very very few Egyptians that are married to Egyptians that will take a 2nd, 3rd, and 4th wife and from the 1 I know this happened to it was worse than divorce for her. It was a slap in the face, it was disrespect big time. It is normally done only when there is a foreign wife involved as for some odd reason some 'accept' this as being a religious obligation, which it is not and the Egyptian wives accept the foreign wife more than they would another Egyptian wife as they assume the foreign wife is just 'business'. He has disrespected you in a way that very few men would disrespect an Egyptian wife, which actually says a lot about him.
Good luck to you in the future, find a man that deserves you.
Posted by Dilemma (Member # 16672) on :
Sarah68 my exhusband which is Egyptian divorced me and married another. Then he asked me to be a secret second wife. We had multiple issues in our marriage and one was children. He tried to convince me that in his religion (Islam) u had to have kids which is not true. Please don't sell yourself short. Remember u can do bad by yourself; u don't need others to bring u down.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dilemma: Sarah68 my exhusband which is Egyptian divorced me and married another. Then he asked me to be a secret second wife. We had multiple issues in our marriage and one was children. He tried to convince me that in his religion (Islam) u had to have kids which is not true. Please don't sell yourself short. Remember u can do bad by yourself; u don't need others to bring u down.
I think having kids is a cultural thing rather than a religious one.It's obviously something deeply rooted in the family tradition, and sadly also in the macho men portrayal of Egyptian society.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I know a western lass who wants a baby but Egy hubby refuses. Not all dudes here think alike and I find those who say they will marry another to start a family generally just wanna be able to bed 2 women and get away with it.
OP, good on you for making a decision to not let a lying man who uses his family and religion as an excuse to justify his actions.
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: I know a western lass who wants a baby but Egy hubby refuses. Not all dudes here think alike and I find those who say they will marry another to start a family generally just wanna be able to bed 2 women and get away with it.
OP, good on you for making a decision to not let a lying man who uses his family and religion as an excuse to justify his actions.
Yeahh,i also know this Egyptian girl who's not interested in getting married at all.Met her in person about 5 or 6 years ago,and still says the same thing.And for those,specially guys,who will say "maybe shes fugly or low class ",quite the contrary. Sure,not all are the same,but the majority of Egyptian men have this macho man attitude,and most Egy girls main interest is getting married.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
A few female Egyptian friends of mine just want to focus on their education to enable them to travel and get out of Egypt.
They are bewildered why some westerners tolerate behaviour that is unacceptable in the West... and also in Egypt!
The dudes I hang out with don't want marriage of kids, they want to party and earn lots of money... I like this mentality Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
Is ths thread messed up on anyone elses puter?
I have the original posts missing and end of page 1 is same posts as end of page 2 Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
nope not here
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
Not this thread, Ayisha, but another thread was for me - I will just check if it still is.
Yes it is, there's a thread on the Living section where the whole of the original page 1 is vanished and I can only see page 2 (listed as page 1) and page 3 listed as page 2.
Wonder how that happens?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
bugger me! It's all back to normal now, Weird!!
Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
have you been drinking again, MISSY? Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Is ths thread messed up on anyone elses puter?
I have the original posts missing and end of page 1 is same posts as end of page 2
Ayisha clear your temp files/cookies/history out.
This may help your browser to work faster.
No problems this end.
Posted by ourluxor (Member # 15101) on :
Too much of the queer smoke, I shouldn't wonder!!
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: bugger me! It's all back to normal now, Weird!!
Hang on there real hard.Shanta is moving ES furniture around. Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Too much of the queer smoke, I shouldn't wonder!!
Posted by Sashyra8 (Member # 14488) on :
quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: have you been drinking again, MISSY?
I saw her on the Drinking and Driving thread! Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8:
quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: have you been drinking again, MISSY?
I saw her on the Drinking and Driving thread!
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Too much of the queer smoke, I shouldn't wonder!!
I hadn't even lit it!!
Pages fine now it's been smoked though Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sashyra8:
quote:Originally posted by Chef Mick: have you been drinking again, MISSY?
I saw her on the Drinking and Driving thread!
Thanks 'mate'!!
Someone chop that 'pointing finger' off Sash please.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
It did it on mine too. It's done it before then all reappeared.
Posted by Shanta Qadeama (Member # 9889) on :
I haven't moved anything around!! All I can do is zap stuff not move stuff!
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
I don't think you have - it just happens sometimes. It's strange. You lose some then it comes back again.
Ayisha did yours start with a long babbly post from me when you lost the first bit? That's what I had.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monkey:
Ayisha did yours start with a long babbly post from me when you lost the first bit? That's what I had.
Yep that's what I saw, first post was yours and the same few posts on bottom of both pages, fine now though.
Posted by pablo_7777 (Member # 15522) on :
quote:Originally posted by sarah68: thanks for everyone who has sent in their opinions. He now has said they are getting married in june or july and I will be back there in May although I will come home. He has said she is nice and I would like her. Is he mad. Also he still wants me to live with him and visit her occasionally. She is in agreement. I asked him if he loved her and he said No I have only known her a month. Any advice would be grateful
i really dont know what to say in such situation. look i assume that he is not a young LAD and wants to marry and have a baby before its too late.
quote: I would like to thank everyone for their help and advice. I have decided to divorce him because he tell lies and I dont trust him anymore
im really sorry for u coz i know how hard is that decision for u .
but last thing i want to say for u here . i hope u had that decision after a very good thinking , and that forum never affected u.
coz end of the day u r the one who is going to pay for that decision.
your husband will continue with his new wife who will try her best to let him forget what happened , so he is most probably forgetting in afew months.
people here on ES will go from issue to another and will forget about u one day very soon and may be they already forgot about ur situation and going to argue for another issues. as they supported u so much to have the divorce. and im in doubt of all what they said here. coz im sure some of them will cry and accept that situation if it happened to them.
you are the only one who is going to feel lonely and hurt after u get the divorce . people on here dont have any clue about what u r going to pass through after u get the divorce.
i really feel sorry when i hear this word (DIVORCE). and i wish that no one will use it at all.
wish u best of luck in ur new happy life.
Posted by young at heart (Member # 10365) on :
I'm sure that when she got married she was not for one minute thinking he would take on a second wife! He has lied to her regarding this other woman. If she can't trust him then were does it go from there? I don't seriously believe someone is going to end their marriage based on a bunch of strangers on the internet. People did say, myself included that it had to be HER decision! Why is she the one that is going to pay for the decision? Her life has been turned upside down by this man but she has the chance to move on and meet a man who loves and wants to be with her and only her! Also I'm sure I am not the only person here who DOES know what it is like to go through a divorce, yes it hurts but when time passes you realise it was the best thing.
Posted by Monkey (Member # 17287) on :
Pablo, if I've put 2+2 together and not come up with 4,583,894, you are in a very different place right now to a lot of the posters which is why your posts are going completely against the grain. If you are a new dad, as I think you are, who is separated from his son, as I suspect, then you know probably much more than anyone here about what this guy is missing out on. I'm sure you wouldn't have missed out on the experience of being a father for all the world. You probably sympathise with him and can see the other side of the fence.
To the rest of us he's a scum bag. It's not because he wants to have children - of course not. It's the fact that he's full of crap. If he was aware OP couldn't have children when he married her, he should have thought about all of this back then. He had A DUTY to think about all this back then and not go leading her up the garden path. To go back on his promises and want to have his cake and eat it is just rotten. It stinks to high heaven.
But to ask you once more, one more time, would you allow your wife to sleep with another man, even once, and stay married to her? Of course you wouldn't. It would kill you. So why should OP be any different? Picture watching this happen day after day (well, not literally, but...). If you're living together, she says right, I'm just going to see Bob. I'll be back in an hour. So what's going through your head all that time? Because in OP's case, they're trying to make a baby. He isn't going over to see wifey no. 2 for a nice cup of tea and a slice of cake. She will know everytime he pops out they'll be at it like rabbits. Would you want him back in your bed? So what if he doesn't come home after an hour, or two, or even that night? And imagine this day in, day out, week after week. What kind of existence is this? This is BS.
It all sounds like a big swizz anyway but I don't think OP can be blamed or criticised for walking away. From an English woman's point of view she has absolutely no choice.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
I would rather be a lil sad and lonely for a while than remain married to a lying piece of dirt!
And yeah some may cry, some may post on Es and some may track the dude down and castrate him with a rusty spoon for even thinking about lying and sneaking around behind their back...
OP, choose according to me:
Remain married and show the dude that you accept this immoral behaviour and give him permission to treat you so dis-respectfully forever and a day OR... Divorce him and meet someone man enough to be honest with you and treat you like a real person.
Seriously... it's a no brainer if you ask me.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: coz end of the day u r the one who is going to pay for that decision.
your husband will continue with his new wife who will try her best to let him forget what happened , so he is most probably forgetting in afew months.
Nice one Pablo.
There you have it Sarah, he will have forgot you in a few months anyway so get on with your life and find a decent man.
Pablo, this woman is a Brit and you are wrongly thinking about how it would be for her if she was an Egyptian woman divorcing, her days are not ended by divorce and she didn't spend her life prior to that wanting only marriage to make her 'whole'. she will be sad yes, but she will recover and get on with her life. Life with a lying cheat is no life at all.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: he is most probably forgetting in afew months.
In one of your first posts you said he probably "loves her so much", now you are saying he will probably have forgotten all about her in a few months. Isn't that a bit contradictory?
Besides, if she matters so little to him that he will forget all about their relationship after a short while, then she will most definitely be better off without him.
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: coz im sure some of them will cry and accept that situation if it happened to them.
Why can't you just state your opinion without belittling, patronizing and insulting anyone who thinks differently?
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: people on here dont have any clue about what u r going to pass through after u get the divorce.
Some of the people who commented here know very well what it's like to go through a divorce. Do you?
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by *Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: he is most probably forgetting in afew months.
In one of your first posts you said he probably "loves her so much", now you are saying he will probably have forgotten all about her in a few months. Isn't that a bit contradictory?
Besides, if she matters so little to him that he will forget all about their relationship after a short while, then she will most definitely be better off without him.
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: coz im sure some of them will cry and accept that situation if it happened to them.
Why can't you just state your opinion without belittling, patronizing and insulting anyone who thinks differently?
I think that of all who answered here only myself and young at heart are actually married to Egyptians (I may be wrong)and i can promise you I would not accept this and this was discussed BEFORE we married.
quote:
quote:Originally posted by pablo_7777: people on here dont have any clue about what u r going to pass through after u get the divorce.
Some of the people who commented here know very well what it's like to go through a divorce. Do you?
I think Pablo should explain what he means by this, what does he think she will pass through? I have been divorced before, best thing I ever did, wish I had done it 20 years earlier.
Posted by Exiiled (Member # 17278) on :
@Ayisha I'm guessing you meant married to Egyptian males, because I'm a respondent and married to an Egyptian woman.
@Sarah The last thing that I would want is for someone to interfere with my relationship with my wife. I am writing this here as a disclaimer. It's is a HUGE sin in Islam to cause a “fitnah” between man and wife. You however invited advice, and a lot of it made sense, so all jokes aside, I hope you listened to everyone else and ignored my 2 cents. Don't need that to huant me day of judgement. Dead serious.
I regret using one word and that is “unethical” to describe you husband, because I do not know him, and contrary to what many people state here, polygamy is a part of Islam. However, no Egyptian woman who is worth anything in her eyes, and the eyes of her husband and the eyes of her family would accept polygamy. It can be destructive and cause imbalance and I think my personal opinion is that you are so much better off without such a marriage.
peace.
Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
quote:Originally posted by Exiiled: @Ayisha I'm guessing you meant married to Egyptian males, because I'm a respondent and married to an Egyptian woman.
yes sorry I meant that and it was in reference to
"coz im sure some of them will cry and accept that situation if it happened to them. "
Like the men we have are something so special we would accept sharing them with another woman. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Marital polygamy is more common I have found when folk follow homogamy and endogamy.
Opposites may attract but I think during my lifetime I believe that birds of a feather tend to flock together more securely.
Sure, there can be superficial differences such as age and looks but generally opposites tend to begin to repel after a time.
This opinion I have arrived at after 20 years of travelling and living overseas. As folk know, I live in Cairo and I am more attracted to people who are more similiar to me in my way of lifestyle, culture and thinking.... and speaka da English is a must.
On a positive note, I know of many successful mixed cultural relationships that have longevity... but in most cases there is trust, understanding, compromise and respect.
Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
quote:Originally posted by young at heart: I'm sure that when she got married she was not for one minute thinking he would take on a second wife! He has lied to her regarding this other woman. If she can't trust him then were does it go from there? I don't seriously believe someone is going to end their marriage based on a bunch of strangers on the internet. People did say, myself included that it had to be HER decision! Why is she the one that is going to pay for the decision? Her life has been turned upside down by this man but she has the chance to move on and meet a man who loves and wants to be with her and only her! Also I'm sure I am not the only person here who DOES know what it is like to go through a divorce, yes it hurts but when time passes you realise it was the best thing.
I have to agree with young at heart.
Posted by *Dalia* (Member # 13012) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I think Pablo should explain what he means by this, what does he think she will pass through?
Oh, come on, Ayisha, we all know that the shadow of a man is better than the shadow of a wall. Better to have half a man, even if he's a lousy bastard, than – God forbid – being divorced! Posted by adelly (Member # 14574) on :
I responded to this post, and i am married to an egyptian.
Posted by stayingput (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by adelly: I responded to this post, and i am married to an egyptian.
Me, too.
Posted by Chef Mick (Member # 11209) on :
quote:Originally posted by adelly: I responded to this post, and i am married to an egyptian.
me 3 Posted by Ayisha (Member # 4713) on :
I did say I may be wrong! Didn't have time to check through the thread. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Not me Posted by marydot (Member # 15932) on :
I had a lucky escape Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Most of the Egyptian/western couples I know seem to be western men married to gorgeous Egyptian girls [and pretty happy too] but seeing them together,I can't help thinking of a clip from a UK TV show in which the glamorous wife of a hideously ugly old tv magician was interviewed, and she was asked 'So what exactly was it that first attracted you to the multimillionaire Paul Daniels?' Re couples in which the western half is female, hmmm about 50/50 some pretty happy, and the rest bitterly trying to find a lawyer they can trust. Vive le difference! Saddens me when foreigners here judge how nice an Egyptian friend is by how 'Western' they appear to be. We westerners aren't the the default setting for great are we? I know some lovely Egyptian people whose attitudes are a zillion miles away from mine, they just see their lives from a different angle.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Vival la difference....
As a westerner in Egypt you must know what it is like to be judged based on your appearance. Egyptians aren't the default setting either.
Every coin has 2 sides Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
I wasn't really talking about how people look, although you sure do have a point. I was thinking more about attitudes, 'modern thinking' and so on. And in terms of the subject of this thread, I'm still inclined to give credence to Pablo's point. He stated right at the start that he was speaking as an Egyptian man, and most Egyptian men I know would think the same, [even if they did have a ton of hip hop on their USB's.]
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Sure attitudes differ, that is why I prefer my homogamy and endogamy way of thinking. Easier and much more enjoyable for me.
Attitudes do differ. And as I state a lot on here difference can be good when it is beneficial but when you have to compromise personal beliefs then the difference is a bain.
Hip hop and Mariah Carey... followed by shakira and Brian Adams with the occasional Elton John song... kill me now.
My post was based on how I would react and nothing else. Be he Egyptian, Welsh or Martian... I would just never accept being lied to and patronised and I certainly could never condone a partner dipping his wick in another and using his mum as the excuse Posted by metinoot (Member # 17031) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mo Ning Min E: I wasn't really talking about how people look, although you sure do have a point. I was thinking more about attitudes, 'modern thinking' and so on. And in terms of the subject of this thread, I'm still inclined to give credence to Pablo's point. He stated right at the start that he was speaking as an Egyptian man, and most Egyptian men I know would think the same, [even if they did have a ton of hip hop on their USB's.]
Yet so many lasses go on and on about "My Mohamed is Different".
Pablo works in tourism; Pablos views being expressed by himself don't match his views expressed by his western wife.
I wonder when it hits lasses that their love interests who work in tourism aren't exactly how they view them.
Posted by bryndavell (Member # 18494) on :
I so feel for you, I did ask this question to a scholar at al Azhar in cairo before I became muslim and he told me that you have to agree to another wife for this request before he can marry again. Unless that is not true?
Posted by stayingput (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by bryndavell: I so feel for you, I did ask this question to a scholar at al Azhar in cairo before I became muslim and he told me that you have to agree to another wife for this request before he can marry again. Unless that is not true?
Maybe that's his interpretation, although I don't know where it comes from.
Posted by Dilemma (Member # 16672) on :
An imam in Egypt told me that a Muslim man dosen't need permission to take a second wife.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Yes. Although less than 3% of Egyptian men have multiple wives, a law passed in 1985 allows a man to have four wives.
In 2000, a new law was passed that permits a man and woman to agree via a signed contract that the husband may not have more than one wife.
I must copy and past this 11 year old law once a month!
Posted by stayingput (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Yes. Although less than 3% of Egyptian men have multiple wives, a law passed in 1985 allows a man to have four wives.
In 2000, a new law was passed that permits a man and woman to agree via a signed contract that the husband may not have more than one wife.
Correct. And she has a year after the marriage to file for a divorce if she doesn't agree with his decision to take another wife.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Is it true that the marriage contract can act pretty much the same as a prenup where the lass can stipulate her rules etc?
Posted by stayingput (Member # 14989) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: Is it true that the marriage contract can act pretty much the same as a prenup where the lass can stipulate her rules etc?
That's the purpose of the contract - to hash out all of the details, put it in writing, sign it, and live up to it.
Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
So if this is true and this info is available at the end of a Google Search then why do so many women contiually get screwed over?
Damn sure if I was travelling to Timbuktu to marry I would do a little investigative work first.
Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
same as a prenup where the lass can stipulate her rules etc?
Oh God, don't you start using 'lass'. It really creeps me out when Metinoot does it, [thought she lived in Brigadoon! Thankyou. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
Sorry Mo, from now on 'lass' will be replaced with 'bird' Posted by Mo Ning Min E (Member # 681) on :
Thanks so much.
Posted by AmbiBambi (Member # 18389) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cheekyferret: So if this is true and this info is available at the end of a Google Search then why do so many women contiually get screwed over?
Damn sure if I was travelling to Timbuktu to marry I would do a little investigative work first.
Nicola, Either they are too blind in love or the ones who do write it down might as well not bother cause the govt won't inforce it anyway. Like stipulating he can't have more then one wife. Yes she can divorce him but se will still have to forefit any money she had coming to her in the contract because "tech" it's his right from god to have more then one wife..in Islam that is. and if you try to get him to ask for the divorce, if he doesn't wanna pay up he could run off disappear and marry again and then she would be even more stuck...the list goes on So it unfortunately is more left to wither the dude is a douche or not..so the prenup is pretty worthless.
Posted by Dilemma (Member # 16672) on :
I can relate Ambi. My coworker had the clause that "he could not have but one wife" in their marriage contract and he married a co-wife, and nothing was done to him for marrying another, but she is in the process of a divorce. I believe he was aware that by putting the clause in the contract would satisfy her but the clause didn't mean anything actually.
Posted by snow white (Member # 15647) on :
S68, believe me you will never accept this even if you think you can. Posted by Cheekyferret (Member # 15263) on :
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It is not MY or YOUR job to give her any choice, we are not involved in this at all. She came for advice and is getting it. You are doing the Egy man side and I and others are doing the Brit woman side. There are after all 2 sides to this whatever country they are in. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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