EgyptSearch Forums: Should Muslime women wear Hagab in Western world

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Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

If a women cover all her body except hands, and head with non-tight close without HAGAB. Is that in your point of view ok or not.

In ather words she will take off the Habag to avoid harm in western world because there are a lot of harrasment after Spt11

Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :

Whether they do or not?

Whether they feel the relion allows or not?

the real point is that they should be able to if they chose without fear of discrimination. The Western world likes to boast of it's freedoms, the US constitution actually has this as a fundental part. The UK has racial laws that are there to allow people to practice their religion without fear.

As a Brit by origin I stand by any Muslim womans right to do what ever she feels is right for her.

Posted by bob the dog (Member # 4691) on :

As a muslima, I wore hijaab in London, without any problems!! But.... wherever you are , you will always get ignorant people!!!
When I was in Sidney, a government minister was trying to ban women wearing it because they could conceal weapons in it!!???
Well.. HELLO.... Has this guy never heard of bags or pockets??

This was pig-ignorant discrimination to the extreme!!

[This message has been edited by Samia (edited 27 March 2005).]

Posted by Valerie (Member # 6806) on :

I stand by akshar.....but this is what I have noticed....In the uk she will stand out in a crowd ...so to speak. I thought the idea of the Hagab was to not show off the female body. But in wearing it she will have many more people looking at her....in this country....uk this is just an observation.

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

The Quran says in meaning that the purpose of Hagab so that women cound not be identified, to avoid hard.

Now, when a women wear Hagab in the Weast, she invit people to her, therefore put herself and herfamily in hard way. Not only that, this situation will in sometime with some people shakes her confident

Posted by akshar (Member # 1680) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Valerie:
I stand by akshar.....but this is what I have noticed....In the uk she will stand out in a crowd ...so to speak. I thought the idea of the Hagab was to not show off the female body. But in wearing it she will have many more people looking at her....in this country....uk this is just an observation.

Depends what part of the UK, in London for example nobody stands out wearing anything as there are so many differnet nationalities all wearing traditional dress. But I agree in the middle of a country village in Sommerset she would stand out.

Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :

quote:
Originally posted by farooqsaid1:
The Quran says in meaning that the purpose of Hagab so that women cound not be identified, to avoid hard.
Now, when a women wear Hagab in the Weast, she invit people to her, therefore put herself and herfamily in hard way. Not only that, this situation will in sometime with some people shakes her confident

Most Western countries these days are multicultural and claim religious tolerance, it would be more acurate to call this religious indifference because the fact is many do not even begin to undertand each others religions ..... and you have to understand to be able to tolerate.
Why is it that people who choose to settle in a country that is not their own always seem to demand the understanding of their ways and their religion.
Westerners think it is Ok to expect alcohol to be served in a Muslim country, and it is Ok for them to walk around inappropriately dressed showing way too much flesh. Likewise a Muslim will expect to continue with all thier religious practices in a western country and then be surprised they draw attention to themselves. Neither is really doing anything wrong, we all have to live according to our religion and culture...just don't expect if you choose to live in a society that is different to your own that it is that society that should adapt itself to your ways.

You have a choice.

Posted by Gail (Member # 6886) on :

farooqsaid1 - I live in the states and I see women from other countries wearing hagab (spelling?), saris and other cultural attire. Honestly, there are Americans who are accepting of this and those who are quite ignorant... even in this century! It really depends on which part of the states and even in which city you happen to be. But even in the most culturally diverse locations, there are ignorant people... those who won't eat in restaurants or shop in stores owned by Indians or Egyptians. It makes me embarrassed for my country. Ultimately, you have to dress and act in the way in which you feel comfortable and don't conform simply because some people might take issue with it.

Posted by 1mangang (Member # 6403) on :

I am American. My sister converted to Islam and married an Egyptian man and lives in Egypt. When she comes back to visit she always wear her hijab, 100%.

Maybe this will help you, she says this to me:

Why would I worry what these Western people think of me more than what Allah (God) thinks?

She's right, I agree. Good for her. Hope that helps you ladies.

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by 1mangang:
I am American. My sister converted to Islam and married an Egyptian man and lives in Egypt. When she comes back to visit she always wear her hijab, 100%.
Maybe this will help you, she says this to me:
Why would I worry what these Western people think of me more than what Allah (God) thinks?
She's right, I agree. Good for her. Hope that helps you ladies.

1mangang, Your sister is doing the ideal thing. However, my point of view a family who came from middle east and settled in the west will go through very tough time exposing religious signs. At school meeting, in wal-mart, at the street at the sport event
at work place, generating tremendous stress make your life isolated and depressed. That is why I would imagine that you behave write, you dress untight and covered and do not block your self.

One other thing came to my mind, when you have kids growing, you will be putting them under huge pressure from their peers and may push them to the other side in the future

Posted by 1mangang (Member # 6403) on :

i understand you.
but then again it is hard to be good in this life, to do the right thing. If it was easy, everyone would do it, right?

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

For every one contibuted to this topic,

If a family relocated in the western society. The wife was not wearing Hagab in Egypt. She met with some muslim friends in US and somehow convinced her to wear Hagab. Her husband explained that good untight close will be enough. NO need for Hagab because at this time muslim people are targeted and that may cause some hardship for the family. Please consider not wearing Hagab. After she thought about it she said no I will wear it. At that time the husband said I need you NOT to wear it. She said NO I will wear it.

My friends, What is your openion?

[This message has been edited by farooqsaid1 (edited 28 March 2005).]

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Farooqsaid,
My opinion if she wants to wear the "hijab" why not? If you follow the religion by the rules the requirement is the hijab.
You will always have people who will stare, and some who will make ignorant comments, I wouldn't really define it has being targeted right now, to wear it. In my area of the usa you see many women wearing hijabs. People that are Amish wear the hat on their head, some orders of nuns still wear the veil. I was raised among the catholic nuns, from head to toe they were covered with veil and a big white bib around the neck, long black dress to floor. My mother used to work closely with the nuns in the villa for children who were homeless, or abandoned for some reason, every weekend we would take one or two children home, sometimes on a holiday break longer. She always felt the nuns should never have taken the veil off, it was their tradition, she felt they were given more respect from the public(just my mothers opinion). What was funny was some felt lost without it and chose to wear a wig.
Anyways, back to your subject on the hijab, in the local supermarket where there is a pharmacy, I always see the pharmacy tech. in her uniform and wearing a hijab. When my daughter was in high school, many girls walked around in hijabs, so I don't think personally it is that major of a problem for her to wear it.
Actually in this country we do adapt to other cultures wishes, which some believe we don't.
Many cases women want a drivers license and they ask her to remove the hijab, she refuses, that is the law here ,just read another case where they took her into a private room for the picture, and a women took her picture for the license.
In the gulf when I was there, they had women removing the "borga" when driving(covers over the face), but could still wear the hijab and abayas(long black veil), when driving.
What is kind of ironic though, is just the other day ,when I was out Easter shopping with my family, in the mall sometimes, you will see women with a "hijab"on, but then real tight jeans and skimpy shirt, so that kind of is"double standard" in my opinion, they are supposed to dress conservative ,so it kind of looked silly and disrespectful to their religion.
As I have always believed show respect for the country you are in.
But an opinion in regards to Saudi Arabia and the rules of covering, when we worked overseas, many american women had their jeans on,and were forced to wear abayas around them
which I personally do not feel is right. Kuwait and U.A.E. etc. did not force hijab and abayas on foreign women or their own women. I think if you are visiting Saudi, yes you can dress more conservative for respect, but shouldn't be arrested for not covering. Then these same people come here and start demanding rules on the hijab?? When in there country they enforce it. Also one other observation,in talking about westerners looking for alcohol in "moslem" countries we can't just single westerners out.
In JFK Airport I saw many arab men drinking alcohol before boarding, many strict airlines "Kuwait Air" etc. no alcohol allowed, putting alcohol in containers, taking it on the plane, being drunk and obnoxious, like any other culture. Also, "Black Market" in there country and also, going through customs bringing it into the country. Because if you know someone you can get almost anything in overseas.Major hotels we would see alcohol under the tables, the "strict so-called moslem men" in dishdashas(long white robe), gatra and agal(white scarf head, and black coil going around). So we see in all religions people that do not choose to follow the religion to the rules, and are conducting this activity in there own country, not so much the westerners expecting to drink. Most know not to in strict moslem non-alcoholic countries, but in homes they produce homemade beer and wine, and many of us saw them making it, I was surprised at first, but, then thought "they are human" so they also are capable of not following Islam correctly.
Farooqsaid, back to your original question, did you ever consider that it may be you that feels uncomfortable, if she wears the hijab?It might be your own fears and concerns being a little too paranoid. Predjudice will never disappear and ignorant people, but people of so many races and religions all experience different types of predjudices. Life goes on and we all have to "march to the beat of our own drum"". As long as we are not hurting someone else by our own actions, then I say more power to her.

Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :

quote:
Originally posted by farooqsaid1:
For every one contibuted to this topic,
If a family relocated in the western society. The wife was not wearing Hagab in Egypt. She met with some muslim friends in US and somehow convinced her to wear Hagab. Her husband explained that good untight close will be enough. NO need for Hagab because at this time muslim people are targeted and that may cause some hardship for the family. Please consider not wearing Hagab. After she thought about it she said no I will wear it. At that time the husband said I need you NOT to wear it. She said NO I will wear it.
My friends, What is your openion?

I think from your question you are more worried about who this lady is taking her advice from...her friends or her husband.... than whether she wears the hijab or not??

If the lady has tried both ways then she knows in her own mind what feels right for her and she should decide for herself whether she wears it or not. She deserves great respect and support for wanting to stay true to her religion.

In the case of children where they may experience peir pressure and want to 'fit in' you can only teach them about their religion and then let them decide for themselves. If you make the decision to let your children grow up in a western society then you have to accept they will learn the concept of..... 'the right to choose'.... if you can't accept this don't bring them here.
However if your religious beleifs are strong you just need faith in god that they will find the right way in the end.

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Farooqsaid,
I have to disagree with this last post. Arab women can be more outspoken then westerners.
These are the kind of statements that keep arab women feeling like they have "no voice" to be heard or brain to think.
The egyptian feminist movements are fighting to remove just these stereotypes mentioned, and egyptian women themselves. Even children overseas encounter peer pressures, and the times have changed. Were not living in the dark ages, give these women some credit. You don't have to move to a western society to experience"right to choose". If that was true then when you go shopping, why do you now see "thong underwear for women" hanging and displayed?, egyptian religious women "choosing" and wanting to feel sexy and attractive and wanting lingerie also?? Good for them, purchasing, making that "right to choose" be it whatever situation. Also they are now saying "no" to arranged marriages more and more , voicing that "right to choose". Great to hear,the arab women are not backwards in thinking. People have this concept that they are "yes" women and have to stay in their shell and "obey the man". Times are changing .

Posted by 1mangang (Member # 6403) on :

quote:
Originally posted by farooqsaid1:
For every one contibuted to this topic,
If a family relocated in the western society. The wife was not wearing Hagab in Egypt. She met with some muslim friends in US and somehow convinced her to wear Hagab. Her husband explained that good untight close will be enough. NO need for Hagab because at this time muslim people are targeted and that may cause some hardship for the family. Please consider not wearing Hagab. After she thought about it she said no I will wear it. At that time the husband said I need you NOT to wear it. She said NO I will wear it.
My friends, What is your openion?

[This message has been edited by farooqsaid1 (edited 28 March 2005).]

I asked my sister about this and she said:

'the choice is ultimately the woman's, since she will have nobody to defend her on her day of Judgment. The husband should not tell her to wear it and he should not tell her not to wear it, nor should her friends. She knows right from wrong and knows what she should do, nobody defends themselves before Allah except THEMSELVES!'.
Hope that helps!

Posted by Gail (Member # 6886) on :

farooqsaid1 - Don't believe all the media hype about discrimination here in the states. Many - if not most - Americans don't even take notice of what others are wearing. And those who do notice are the same people who still can't handle the fact that African Americans are equals. (This fight should have been over years ago!) They seem to forget that America is a country of immigrants, which is what makes it so interesting to live here. She needs to be true to her own identity and wear what she wants to wear.

[This message has been edited by Gail (edited 29 March 2005).]

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Penny:
[B] I think from your question you are more worried about who this lady is taking her advice from...her friends or her husband.... than whether she wears the hijab or not??

Dear Penny, There is different between what do we like vs what is right and that is applied for both man and women. When an issue crosses "muslim" family they should set down together and discuss it. Every one should put his point of view on the table. After all this discussion and concern it is the head of the family to take the decision for the family. After the decision is made, those who has otherwise openion should adapt and coop with the chosen direction and work their full to make it success.

This is the picture that islam called for. I have full respect for that, do you?

Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :

quote:
Originally posted by farooqsaid1:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Penny:
[B] I think from your question you are more worried about who this lady is taking her advice from...her friends or her husband.... than whether she wears the hijab or not??
If the lady has tried both ways then she knows in her own mind what feels right for her and she should decide for herself whether she wears it or not. She deserves great respect and support for wanting to stay true to her religion.
Dear Penny, There is different between what do we like vs what is right and that is applied for both man and women. When an issue crosses "muslim" family they should set down together and discuss it. Every one should put his point of view on the table. After all this discussion and concern it is the head of the family to take the decision for the family. After the decision is made, those who has otherwise openion should adapt and coop with the chosen direction and work their full to make it success.
This is the picture that islam called for. I have full respect for that, do you?

Dear farooqsaid1

I would certainly agree that any family regardless of religion should sit down and discuss problems together to find a solution that works for everyone.......but no decision is ever set in stone and if this lady has tried to do what she and her husband thought was best for the western society they live in by not wearing the hijab, but then found it to be in conflict with her beleifs as a muslim woman ....nobody not even her husband should come between her and her god.

More importantly a husband who respects Islam and his wife's belief in god should not even create this situation in the first place over a matter which is fundamental to her as a muslim woman.

Yes, many issues should be decided mutually as a family but matters that are fundamental to the very core of a persons beliefs should be left to that person, and that person alone to decide what is right for her/him.

That was why I bought up the issue of children from other cultures growing up in western societies. In our culture children grow up learning about all the different religions and that they have the freedom to choose which one is right for them or even not to follow a religion at all. That is not to say that most will not follow the same religion as their parents but that decison is made by them and not their family. That is what I mean by the right of choice in the west, it is the freedom to choose for yourself what is your way of life, rather that automatically adopting the ways of the family you are born to.

Please understand I have full respect for both ways of life there are pluses and minuses with both. The problems just start when you try to integrate the two ways...it is not easy especially when there are children involved who will probably want to integrate into the new society far more than their parents who already have a set belief system.

farooqsaid1 if this situation is about you personally and your wife then is it not time for another family discussion, and on this issue. Can't you see it is one that your wife should decide for herself so you can show her YOU RESPECT HER as a muslim woman and value that she wants to live according to what gods asks of her.

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
Dear farooqsaid1
I would certainly agree that any family regardless of religion should sit down and discuss problems together to find a solution that works for everyone.......but no decision is ever set in stone and if this lady has tried to do what she and her husband thought was best for the western society they live in by not wearing the hijab, but then found it to be in conflict with her beleifs as a muslim woman ....nobody not even her husband should come between her and her god.
More importantly a husband who respects Islam and his wife's belief in god should not even create this situation in the first place over a matter which is fundamental to her as a muslim woman.
Yes, many issues should be decided mutually as a family but matters that are fundamental to the very core of a persons beliefs should be left to that person, and that person alone to decide what is right for her/him.
That was why I bought up the issue of children from other cultures growing up in western societies. In our culture children grow up learning about all the different religions and that they have the freedom to choose which one is right for them or even not to follow a religion at all. That is not to say that most will not follow the same religion as their parents but that decison is made by them and not their family. That is what I mean by the right of choice in the west, it is the freedom to choose for yourself what is your way of life, rather that automatically adopting the ways of the family you are born to.
Please understand I have full respect for both ways of life there are pluses and minuses with both. The problems just start when you try to integrate the two ways...it is not easy especially when there are children involved who will probably want to integrate into the new society far more than their parents who already have a set belief system.
farooqsaid1 if this situation is about you personally and your wife then is it not time for another family discussion, and on this issue. Can't you see it is one that your wife should decide for herself so you can show her YOU RESPECT HER as a muslim woman and value that she wants to live according to what gods asks of her.

It is not personal, it is a common problem not only in Western world, it is pread all over. It is the poson which is slowely spreading in the muslim families destroying the bond between the member reducing them to weak individuals prey for evil.

Do you work, where, say you are engineer. You came up with solution for a certain project. You took it to you both. He said it is good idea, however, I would recommend to do this way (not your way) You miled and said sure no problem. Penny why did you do and say that?

Pophet Mohamed said meaning, "Muslim nation will be divided to over seveny direction, all will be in hell except one. He was asked, who is the saved one, he said those who follow my footsteps.

I will give you a general calibration to know whether you are right or wrong, usualy what you LIKE is wrong and this the chalenge of life and that is why there is a big reward for that

Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :

Dear farooqsaid1:

And there in your answer lies the problem of a western society not understanding Islamic society and vice versa and probably why we should not live in each others societies.

Yes I work...and have to make very hard decisions sometimes that require a high level of professional skill so am I going to listen to a husband who tells something I know in my heart is fundamentally wrong....you know the answer

But forget the differences between our societies as that is not really the issue here.............. You are more intersted in this issue of being the captain of your ship than letting your wife be true to her faith....and that does not make sense to me.

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
Dear farooqsaid1:
But forget the differences between our societies as that is not really the issue here.............. You are more intersted in this issue of being the captain of your ship than letting your wife be true to her faith....and that does not make sense to me.

Here you go, the poison that the free! world contaminated the women with. No dear Penny, it is not about being a captain, it is about having a sound, stable, respectful, and unshaky environment to the kids to grow in.

Penny I think you got off the point more than once with angry falvor. (correct me if I am wrong"!

Who in this forum can provide me with an example of a wife who "understand and believe" in the fact that sound family textile mandates the wife to bend to her husband openion at the time of crises or conflict.

Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :

I promise you there is no anger on my part

Western family life is just different to yours . Each partner has an equal role. Both parents may work or have done so at some time giving both a great depth of experience to offer their children. We come at things as a team and make joint decisions. This is not 'a poisonous' way of life it is simply different to your belief system. I can assure you all the children have grown up in my family with great respect for people from all walks of life and respect for men and women as equals.

You can't change western society anymore than we can change yours, you don't even have to go as far as respecting it...but to live here you will have to learn to accept it.

BUT back to your wife..............please can you answer my question why you come between her and her belief in god and the teachings of your prophet.
I understand your family values and agree whatever our sytem is we should work towards a stable family life, but I simply cannot understand your coming between your wife and her god.

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
I promise you there is no anger on my part
Western family life is just different to yours . Each partner has an equal role. Both parents may work or have done so at some time giving both a great depth of experience to offer their children. We come at things as a team and make joint decisions. This is not 'a poisonous' way of life it is simply different to your belief system. I can assure you all the children have grown up in my family with great respect for people from all walks of life and respect for men and women as equals.
You can't change western society anymore than we can change yours, you don't even have to go as far as respecting it...but to live here you will have to learn to accept it.
BUT back to your wife..............please can you answer my question why you come between her and her belief in god and the teachings of your prophet.
I understand your family values and agree whatever our sytem is we should work towards a stable family life, but I simply cannot understand your coming between your wife and her god.

I would rather using the term western or muslim societies without "yours or mine".
You're trying to look at the good part of what "your" society has to offer. However, you disregarded the fact that about 60% of "your" marriage ends in devorce and about 90% cheeting rate is a moderate percentage. May be you are from the lucky 10%, but in here we do not talk about you and I we're talking in general what system is closer from a hight successful percentage. The one designed by GOD or the one design by Mr Sam.

I understand how much the muslim men minipulate their roll as a learder of their families and committed lots of opression and that is why middleeast is 3rd world, but that does not mean the God system is wrong.

Penny every one is entitled to choose whatever way to go by, however, the fact will stay, we all eventualy will report to the same very god, and guss what he has only one standard. Based on that the question of "where you are what lanquage you speak,.." is absolutly irrelevent.

[This message has been edited by farooqsaid1 (edited 30 March 2005).]

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Farooqsaid,
Reading these last posts are unbelievable!
Condradictions on both sides. You really display male chauvinistic behavior. Two people in a marriage become as "one" a union. Communicating together . I can now see why your wife shouts ,and has outbursts, it is frustration she is feeling. You don't give her an opportunity to voice her own opinions. You keep asking for advice on your wife ,then you keep concluding divorce is inevitable.If "you" truly follow Islam, you wouldn't be mentioning divorce. Maybe it is you that wants to stray and "sow your wild oats", meaning have another woman. You are using her as an excuse I feel.Don't put it on her back.
Making a conscious decision in regards to religion, has nothing to do with breaking up family values.We all have to answer and account to "god". You are not "god" or your wife's judge. She will have to decide her own religious beliefs. The Prophet Mohammed , Koran, etc., doesn't say wear your "hijab" don't wear it as your husband instructs you.
Farooqsaid, maybe you do need a more passive wife, she seems perfectly in her right mind to me, after listening to this. You are actually putting more stress on her condition, trying to act like such a dictator to her.
Also, what is utterly ridiculous is this constant referral to "western culture" causes this and that. Why can't people take responsibility for their own actions. Western societies are heavily populated with practicing moslems. "Third World doesn't necessarily apply to "way of thinking", it is underdeveloped in culture, economics,etc.
For instance, Pharmacutical companies for years have been know to ship expired "drugs" to "third world" countries, medical care isn't as advanced, "why do you think all the foreign people usually travel abroad for medical care, and to get educated.
Anyways, the percentages of your divorce rates are not accurate, look at your own country. Egyptian women are divorcing ,(arab women) in general at a fast speed, fighting for their rights.Choosing their own mates.
To answer your last question "Are there any women who would bend to her husband's wishes,I would say "Stand up tall ladies and hold your head up high" you have a brain, god gave it to you "use it"! The "hijab" is not really the issue here.

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Farooqsaid,
Forgot one important point. Why the family conferences? When the decision is ultimately decided by you? That is not "discussing" a family matter. Then you said"the disageeing party should accept the decision". This is from your own mind. Why use religion as your reason to make these decisions? No one is breaking up the family unit in "Islam", actually love and communication, people being assertive make it a stronger bond.

Posted by Penny (Member # 1925) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
BUT back to your wife..............please can you answer my question why you come between her and her belief in god and the teachings of your prophet.
I understand your family values and agree whatever our sytem is we should work towards a stable family life, but I simply cannot understand your coming between your wife and her god.

Please answer the question why do you keep avoiding it?

And what was this:-

I see deep contradition in your testemony, one time you said I have to use professional skills! in the work place " compromise" because you are not willing to give up your work, on the other hand at home you claim we are equal. What I am saying that the equality is a destructive measure in most cases.
-----------------------------------------
Equality should never be viewed as destructive it is the exact opposite...and the right of every man and women on this earth....it was the right given to them by god. Man is the destructive element when he seeks to treat a women as anything other than his equal.

With regard to work of course it is possible for a women to work at a professional level and fulfil her duties to her children and family. It takes planning and organisation but is perfectly possible.

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alana:
To answer your last question "Are there any women who would bend to her husband's wishes,I would say "Stand up tall ladies and hold your head up high" you have a brain, god gave it to you "use it"! The "hijab" is not really the issue here.[/B]

Alana, It is very risky to get exited, caz sometimes you will find to keep the momentum you have to lie, manipulate, and fusge, consequently loosing your point as well as people respect.

You claimed that I have said:
==============================
" Are there any women who would bend to her husband's wishes"

while my sentence was:
======================
"Who in this forum can provide me with an example of a wife who "understand and believe" in the fact that sound family textile mandates the wife to bend to her husband openion at the time of crises or conflict."

I invite all the people in this forum to compare what Alana claimed that I said versus what I truly said!

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
Please answer the question why do you keep avoiding it?
And what was this:-
I see deep contradition in your testemony, one time you said I have to use professional skills! in the work place " compromise" because you are not willing to give up your work, on the other hand at home you claim we are equal. What I am saying that the equality is a destructive measure in most cases.

I sorry that ia I am not clear in my point. My point of view is establish comparison between two similar situations:

Situation #1
==============
A women in the work place working. She has a project. She spent alot of time to provide conceptual solution for a project. She finalized her concept. She met with her manager and explained her concept. The manager said "you have very good idea BUT I think it is better to do otherwise..

What you think typically she will do, I will tell you, she will smile and will say sure sir I will change MY conceprt and start working on the other idea....

Situation #2
===============
Husband told the wife, the dress that you bought for our daughter graduation ceremony has a wide top opening exposing part of her breast. Please either change it with something more conservative or have her to dress something underneath. She was outraged and got angry making the daughter feels that her dad is not a modern guy. Then after the graduation the teacher said now we will go for a dance party. I said we do not dance, we are muslim people. My wife was very angry make my daughter really think that she is unfortunate having a dad like me.

Comparing the two situations from the real life indicating that there is a deep misunderstanding of the muslim wife role in the muslim family.

Penny, the core of the problem is is not a man or a husband openion vesus the women or wife openion, it what god ordered us to do versus what we {a man or a women} like to see.
One think very clear in the muslim religeon, if there is an issue and two openion in a muslim family, the ultimate decision has to be taken by the husband and it is compulsory to the rest of the family to content with the dad decision.

Ladies, please do not think that is nasty. Believe me that is wonderful for all the member of the family.

Posted by JYREETA (Member # 6739) on :

HI FAROOQSAID,I'M SORRY YOU ARE WORRIED ABOUT.I ALSO WORRY ABOUT WHAT I SHOULD WEAR IN EGYPT.WOMEN THERE ARE MORE "COVERED"UP THAN AMERICAN WOMEN.BUT YOU SHOULD FEEL FREE IN THE STATES TO BE WHOEVER YOU WANT,TO DRESS HOW EVER YOU WANT.SURE,SOME PEOPLE MIGHT STARE AT YOU WHEN YOUR HERE.SOMETIMES I GET STARE JUST BECAUSE IM BLACK.BUT NOONE WILL SAY ANYTHING TO YOU,OR HARRASS YOU OR TRY TO HARM YOU,JUST BECAUSE YOUR A MUSLIM WOMAN.THE MEDIA PORTRAYS TO MUCH FANTASY WHEN IT COMES TO MUSLIMS IN OUR COUNTRY BEING DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.LISTEN,IN OUR COUNTRY IF YOUR NOT WHITE YOU ARE CONSIDERED A MINORITY.AND SOMETIMES AS A MINORITY YOU MAY EXPERIENCE PEOPLE BEING RUDE,BUT TRUST ME WHEN I SAY AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN IN THIS COUNTRY,TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN,OR RELIGION,OR WHAT COUNTRY YOU COME FROM IS VERY RARE NOW ADAYS.NO ONE IS THINKING ABOUT SEPTEMBER 11 EXCEPT BUSH.AND EVEN THOUGH HE WAS VOTED FOR,I DONT KNOW ANYONE WHO LIKES BUSH.AND ANOTHER THING ABOUT COULTURE IN AMERICA.THE BIGGER THE CITY YOU LIVE IN,THE MORE COMFORTABLE YOU WILL FEEL.WHERE I LIVE,IN COLUMBUS,OHIO.THERE IS A LARGE ARAB AND AFRICAN COMMUNITY.I SEE MORE ARABS AND AFRICANS HERE THAN AMERICANS.AND THEY WEAR THEIR TRADITIONAL CLOTHES,AND ARE NEVER HARRASSED.PLEASE FEEL FREE TO BE YOURSELF.PART OF BEING AMERICAN IS THAT YOU ARE FREE TO BE WHOEVER YOU WANT TO BE.I HOPE YOU LIKE IT HERE WHEN YOU COME.YOU'LL SEE,IT'S NOT AS BAD AS THE NEWS PORTRAYS

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Farooqsaid,
What is very interesting and ironic here, I printed this page, I wanted my husband to read this, who taught Islamic Studies, and Translation of the Holy Koran in Al-Azher in egypt. You edited your words and actually you are the liar, and manipulator . I have your exact words you posted that day. You did state :Is their any woman who would bend to her husband wishes?"etc. Changed it!!
My husband said he would be very interested in speaking with you , for you are very "uninformed" about Islam and the Koran.
My husband said to ask you"What is the mea.ning of "identified" that you get from the Koran? In regards to Islamic rules for what women have to wear you used the word"identified"
He said explain to the people in this forum "What is the different meanings, for there are many reasons for women to wear "hijab"? Is it for sexual behavior? In same time their is many meanings in the world for the same word.He also said to you: Dear Sir,"you can't attack people in their religions, or cultures, if you want to invite people to Islam.At an Islamic table there is rules for that, because there is no pushing to be "moslem", and "Islam" means peace not war.Your words and ideas show you jump from point to point without any reason. I said that because you think "the devil" is working in Western society. No Sir, because "you said inside the moslem world devil working, and they will be divided.It's not America or UK, or Mecca, but all over the world. I want to say their is no nationality for Islamic Religion. You have to be aware , that where you begin is "with yourself", because Islam says start with yourself first, then you can advise others with Islamic rules. What this means is "you have to have the knowledge and qualifications, before you discuss any religious subjects about Islam,and comparing Islam to other religions and cultures. It is not easy like you portray. Ask this to any professional theologists in "AL-AZHER Mosque"

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alana:
[B]Farooqsaid,
What is very interesting and ironic here, I printed this page, I wanted my husband to read this, who taught Islamic Studies, and Translation of the Holy Koran in Al-Azher in egypt. You edited your words and actually you are the liar, and manipulator . I have your exact words you posted that day. You did state :Is their any woman who would bend to her husband wishes?"etc. Changed it!!

Alana, this is the trouble that a lier always face, once he or she lies once, it has to be followed by series of lies. If I would have changed it, you got to see a massage saying this massage modified by.. in time...

Good By

Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by farooqsaid1:
...
Penny, the core of the problem is is not a man or a husband openion vesus the women or wife openion, it what god ordered us to do versus what we {a man or a women} like to see.
One think very clear in the muslim religeon, if there is an issue and two openion in a muslim family, the ultimate decision has to be taken by the husband and it is compulsory to the rest of the family to content with the dad decision.
Ladies, please do not think that is nasty. Believe me that is wonderful for all the member of the family.

Farooq, I have a question, Does Islam allow Muslim woman to disobey God when her Husband ask her to?
May sound l ike a naive question but from what I read here you seem to applying the rule about God or people's opinion when it's in your favor but how about when your wife choose God's ruling about wearing Hijab over your request about taking it of?

I wouldn't have respect for woman who obey her husband over God, would you?

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Troubles101:

Farooq, I have a question, Does Islam allow Muslim woman to disobey God when her Husband ask her to?
May sound l ike a naive question but from what I read here you seem to applying the rule about God or people's opinion when it's in your favor but how about when your wife choose God's ruling about wearing Hijab over your request about taking it of?
I wouldn't have respect for woman who obey her husband over God, would you?

Dear Troubles101, The direct general answer is no God's command before anyone else wish including parents, kids or wifes.

Hawever, the point here is not this way at all, it is about the lack of harmony to acheive cetain goal, the goal of raising a strong new generation. Lots of obsacles will come across the family with mutiple choises with different openions.

Now the issue is, what is the system of discussing the availabe options between the family members and final dicision will be taken. The hagab thing was just an example but there are hunderds others, for example
- Which school the daughter should go to
- Should we pay money in this house or that
- Should we recieve this extended family member this summer or not
-
- Etc

Thousand of situations, Now if there is conflict of point of view, eventually the final decision should be the husband call based on the islamic system.

Posted by Khentiamentiu333 (Member # 6109) on :

Well, this seems like randomness after all the discussion above, but I go to a large university here in the United States and I do see a few muslim classmates wearing the "hijab." It seems like most don't, but this might not be accurate since I of course don't have class with every muslim lady that goes to my university nor do I see all of them when walking.
Just an observation...

Posted by Automatic For The People (Member # 7160) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Penny:
Equality should never be viewed as destructive it is the exact opposite...and the right of every man and women on this earth....it was the right given to them by god.

How and where? How do you know it given to them by God? How did God relate this fact to us?

[This message has been edited by Automatic For The People (edited 20 April 2005).]

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Farooqsaid,
You really have no common sense, I printed the page immediately after you wrote that ridiculous paragragh. You did not edit anything at that point, because, you were waiting for responses back. When you realized how silly you sounded, you retracted your words,after receiving many responses back not agreeing with you. Give me your e-mail, I would be happy to forward your original words to you. I just returned from vacation, and it shows after 10 days, you couldn't respond back, to the initial post. Because you make no sense, and you really do not know what you are talking about.Educate yourself before passing judgement on others.

Posted by egyptianchick (Member # 7316) on :

well i live in western america and i wear the higab ilhamd lellah.
I do get bad looks sometimes but it doesn't really bother me any more.
If you don't fell different most people won't treat u like your different!

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alana:
Farooqsaid,
You really have no common sense, I printed the page immediately after you wrote that ridiculous paragragh. You did not edit anything at that point, because, you were waiting for responses back. When you realized how silly you sounded, you retracted your words,after receiving many responses back not agreeing with you. Give me your e-mail, I would be happy to forward your original words to you. I just returned from vacation, and it shows after 10 days, you couldn't respond back, to the initial post. Because you make no sense, and you really do not know what you are talking about.Educate yourself before passing judgement on others.

Alana, you could've her if you have it, Alana, there are people like you, sky is the limits of their agressivness, I would like to avoid those people because no good comes out of them. Please go away

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

farooqsaid,
Finally you said something that made sense, when you could not prove your point. You are the "Dictator" and aggressor, "God Bless Your Wife". When you post a topic you unfortunately can't snap your fingers like "Bewitched", people will respond, don't post a topic then. This is a public forum.
How did you ever guess "the sky is the limit"?
How boring life would be if people were all "yes" people? Variety is the spice of life.May your wife find that different variety. Your flavor is going to poison and kill her. You are really a piece of work! LOL

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alana:
farooqsaid,
Finally you said something that made sense, when you could not prove your point. You are the "Dictator" and aggressor, "God Bless Your Wife". When you post a topic you unfortunately can't snap your fingers like "Bewitched", people will respond, don't post a topic then. This is a public forum.
How did you ever guess "the sky is the limit"?
How boring life would be if people were all "yes" people? Variety is the spice of life.May your wife find that different variety. Your flavor is going to poison and kill her. You are really a piece of work! LOL

Please go away

Posted by 1mangang (Member # 6403) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alana:
farooqsaid,
Finally you said something that made sense, when you could not prove your point. You are the "Dictator" and aggressor, "God Bless Your Wife". When you post a topic you unfortunately can't snap your fingers like "Bewitched", people will respond, don't post a topic then. This is a public forum.
How did you ever guess "the sky is the limit"?
How boring life would be if people were all "yes" people? Variety is the spice of life.May your wife find that different variety. Your flavor is going to poison and kill her. You are really a piece of work! LOL

alana shut the f**k up.
you have delusions that you are smart.

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

1mangang,
This is a public forum ,and I will respond if I choose to.If you don't like it, don't read my response. I am not going to "lower myself to your level" with your nasty language.That just shows what type of person "you" really are.Well as they say"If you can't take the heat ,get out of the kitchen". I never put myself above others, but thankyou for the compliment for being smart. Are you forming a "male chauvanist club", you would make a great president.??
Your name suits you well and says it all

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alana:
Are you forming a "male chauvanist club", you would make a great president.??
Your name suits you well and says it all [/B]

Alana, Although I have had no plan to talk to you but in your response I found what appear to be the real issue.

Male Chauvanist appear to be a psycholgical complexity issue in you mind may be you need to reevaluate. God help all of us

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

farooqsaid,
You did make me laugh, I have to admit.
After two responses ordering me "GO Away"
You responded to me. Hmmmmm.......and I have the psychological problems. Why are you talking? If you are such a true "moslem", are you accepting that nasty language from 1mangangs mouth?? You are looking for women only to sympathize with you, and agree with you.I have to give you credit , when you first came on here everyone was feeling so sorry for you, when in fact it was your "poor wife" who has endured so much pain from you. Penny was right when she said "you want to be the captain of the ship". If a woman has an opinion, we are all mentally ill like you had us believe your wife was. You are the "sick man" with issues, who wants to dictate and control.Poor Hind you tried to flirt and pick her up on here, like a dating game. Wow, Mr. faithful Married Moslem Man!! Following Islam,( Incorrectly). Go study at Al-Azher, maybe you will be blessed.

Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alana:
farooqsaid,
You did make me laugh, I have to admit.
After two responses ordering me "GO Away"
You responded to me. Hmmmmm.......and I have the psychological problems. Why are you talking? If you are such a true "moslem", are you accepting that nasty language from 1mangangs mouth?? You are looking for women only to sympathize with you, and agree with you.I have to give you credit , when you first came on here everyone was feeling so sorry for you, when in fact it was your "poor wife" who has endured so much pain from you. Penny was right when she said "you want to be the captain of the ship". If a woman has an opinion, we are all mentally ill like you had us believe your wife was. You are the "sick man" with issues, who wants to dictate and control.Poor Hind you tried to flirt and pick her up on here, like a dating game. Wow, Mr. faithful Married Moslem Man!! Following Islam,( Incorrectly). Go study at Al-Azher, maybe you will be blessed.

Alana, you are one of those women, men shouldn't mess with

Posted by Troubles101 (Member # 4543) on :

quote:
Originally posted by farooqsaid1:
Dear Troubles101, The direct general answer is no God's command before anyone else wish including parents, kids or wifes.
Hawever, the point here is not this way at all, it is about the lack of harmony to acheive cetain goal, the goal of raising a strong new generation. Lots of obsacles will come across the family with mutiple choises with different openions.
Now the issue is, what is the system of discussing the availabe options between the family members and final dicision will be taken. The hagab thing was just an example but there are hunderds others, for example
- Which school the daughter should go to
- Should we pay money in this house or that
- Should we recieve this extended family member this summer or not
-
- Etc
Thousand of situations, Now if there is conflict of point of view, eventually the final decision should be the husband call based on the islamic system.

Hi ya Farooq, im sorry for the delay as it wasn't my choice.

im not sure whether you still give a damn about the discussion here after your clash with alana, hence i will sum my opinion by saying that harmony is the right word when we speak about which school or where to spend summer vacation but tolerance is the right word when we speak about religious stuff like hijab, Wife can't obey husband by disobeying God and this is an islamic rule and if you think that hijab is not required by God in certain circumstances that is still you personal ijtihad.

anyway i hope the best for u and ur family

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Troubles,
I'll take that as a compliment

At least you spoke the truth in regards to following the religion and god,even if it means "disobeying" her husband( how primitive) sigh!
Anyways you seem to display intelligence and correct info on Islam. Maybe you could pass that on in the religion section. I was showing some Moslem friends today, the extreme predjudices, against catholics in that forum, they were so embarrassed by that. They said "that is not the way of Islam to behave." Put down another religion, make sarcastic remarks to " convert" Pope" to Islam, they said these are not true followers of the religion, or behaving in a respectful manner towards others.
Troubles I am a very peaceful person , being a man or woman posting to me , is no difference, it is how one shows respect, they will receive respect back.

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Troubles101:

Hi ya Farooq, im sorry for the delay as it wasn't my choice.
im not sure whether you still give a damn about the discussion here after your clash with alana, hence i will sum my opinion by saying that harmony is the right word when we speak about which school or where to spend summer vacation but tolerance is the right word when we speak about religious stuff like hijab, Wife can't obey husband by disobeying God and this is an islamic rule and if you think that hijab is not required by God in certain circumstances that is still you personal ijtihad.
anyway i hope the best for u and ur family

Troubles, i went back up and re-read your previous comments and i felt very happy that there are people who know haw to express a different point of view.

My dear Troubles, I felt such a warm feeling just reading your words. I immagined someone in front of me expressing his or her openion nicely and kindly. Such person i would do lots of things to make him or her happy.

I just remember that " Aldeen Almoamla"

Posted by Shadya (Member # 7341) on :

I work as a Director for the Harris County Hospital District, which is the fourth largest Medical City in the United States. I wear hijab to work daily.

I wont say it was always easy, because I lost work for my beliefs. But I will say that American-born women wearing hijab are treated differently from foreign women who wear hijab (and who live in the US). American culture will respect my choice in faith because I am a fellow American. It is unfortunate that women with ethnic dress or attributes are not treated equally.

I have no problem wearing hijab anywhere, but I have friends who are afraid to be seen in public with hijab. I also make certain friends uncomfortable when I wear hijab publically (for instance, when we go to Walmart). It bothers them more than me that people stare.

I guess the best choice is to do what pleases yourself. I really wore hijab since I was a child, and I often find that wearing one brings people to me with questions about Islam. I welcome their questions.

Sometimes funny things happen as a direct result of me wearing hijab. I had a 5 year old girl ask me in Frye's if I was the Virgin Mary...I was fueling my car with petrol in Alabama and after I paid when I returned to my car, I realized someone left me a whole box of Jehovah's Witness reading materials on the top of my car. In the past I had Fundamental Baptists stop me in the hallway at the hospital, in the hope of converting me on the spot. I remain polite but firm in my convictions.

My husband's family asked him, why does Shadya never show her hair (they really wondered if I had any). He told them the plain truth. He said: Shadya has friends who knew her for years and they never saw her hair. He understands that my hair and how it looks, is for his pleasure only. Modesty is a wonderful attribute on women.

Posted by salama (Member # 5941) on :

Salam Shadya,
This was a wonderful post I have read for months.
Thanks

Posted by farooqsaid1 (Member # 7004) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Shadya:
I work as a Director for the Harris County Hospital District, which is the fourth largest Medical City in the United States. I wear hijab to work daily.
I wont say it was always easy, because I lost work for my beliefs. But I will say that American-born women wearing hijab are treated differently from foreign women who wear hijab (and who live in the US). American culture will respect my choice in faith because I am a fellow American. It is unfortunate that women with ethnic dress or attributes are not treated equally.
I have no problem wearing hijab anywhere, but I have friends who are afraid to be seen in public with hijab. I also make certain friends uncomfortable when I wear hijab publically (for instance, when we go to Walmart). It bothers them more than me that people stare.
I guess the best choice is to do what pleases yourself. I really wore hijab since I was a child, and I often find that wearing one brings people to me with questions about Islam. I welcome their questions.
Sometimes funny things happen as a direct result of me wearing hijab. I had a 5 year old girl ask me in Frye's if I was the Virgin Mary...I was fueling my car with petrol in Alabama and after I paid when I returned to my car, I realized someone left me a whole box of Jehovah's Witness reading materials on the top of my car. In the past I had Fundamental Baptists stop me in the hallway at the hospital, in the hope of converting me on the spot. I remain polite but firm in my convictions.
My husband's family asked him, why does Shadya never show her hair (they really wondered if I had any). He told them the plain truth. He said: Shadya has friends who knew her for years and they never saw her hair. He understands that my hair and how it looks, is for his pleasure only. Modesty is a wonderful attribute on women.

Shadya, I could not agree with you more and my full repect to you. As I has wriiten in the previous post that the main issue is actually not the issue itself! as much as the WAY that one approch it, express it.

Posted by Shadya (Member # 7341) on :

You know? I found a woman living in the UK who makes my hijabs for me. She does beautiful work. She is also Egyptian and her business is named Sensational Scarves. She will ship internationally, and she is reliable. I probably bought 20 or more from her if anyone is interested...She makes one type of hijab with a cap that also has an opening in the back for women who pull their long hair back, and a separate long rectangular piece of cloth. She also makes the type of hijab where the cap and the long piece of cloth are attached. The ends of the long cloth are sewn together so that a woman can place the material over the cap and just pin it there. So easy and they look beautiful.

When I picked up my husband from the airport last week, I had 3 or 4 people (muslimahs who work at the airport) comment on the hijab I was wearing.

Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :

quote:
Originally posted by salama:
Salam Shadya,
This was a wonderful post I have read for months.
Thanks

So why don't you were hijjap urself
you hypocrite so so slezyyyyyyyyy an fake

Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :

quote:
Originally posted by 1mangang:

alana shut the f**k up.
you have delusions that you are smart.

Yes plzzzzzzzzzzz **** of u drunking old man'

Posted by Morgan (Member # 6662) on :

quote:
Originally posted by 1mangang:

I asked my sister about this and she said:
'the choice is ultimately the woman's, since she will have nobody to defend her on her day of Judgment. The husband should not tell her to wear it and he should not tell her not to wear it, nor should her friends. She knows right from wrong and knows what she should do, nobody defends themselves before Allah except THEMSELVES!'.
Hope that helps!

Oh hear the drunk talk abaut allah LOL
SHUT UP AN GO TO BED

Posted by Alana (Member # 6453) on :

Morgan,
You really made me laugh!
I liked that "shut up and go to bed." lol
I don't think he can get off of the couch from being "stoned" as he puts it. Tripping on his hallucinations are #1 priority.
Take Care