• English ……Hattic …..Egyptian…….. Malinke (Mande language)
  
  powerful ……ur………. wr'great,big' ………fara
  
  protect…….. $uh……… swh …………………solo-
  
  head …………tup ………tp ……………tu 'strike the head'
  
  up,upper….. tufa ………..tp……………… dya, tu 'raising ground'
  
  to stretch put… pd ………pe,……………….. bamba
  
  o prosper …….falfat …..-- …………………..find'ya
  
  pour ……………duq …….---………………….. du 'to dispense'
  
  child …………..pin………,pinu………………… den
  
  Mother ………..na-a ………--…………………….. na
  
  lord …………….sa ………..--………………………. sa
  
  place ………….-ka………… -ka

The languages have similar syntax Hattic le fil 'his house'; Mande a falu 'his father's house'. This suggest that the first Anatolians were Kushites, a view supported by the Hattic name for themselves: Kashka.


.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The Tehenu and the Meshwesh


Meshwesh


Tehenu Second Personage from the Left


The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).

The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.

Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people
(who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).

The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.

The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".

The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).

The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).


The coalition of the Meshweshy had each unit of the army organized into "family or tribal ' units under the leadership of a "great one". As result to understand why the fAsian and Tehenu figures on the Table of Nations are identified differently you have use both the pictorical and textual material from the reign of Ramses III to understand the representations. As a result, Palestianian -Syrian personage or figure D, is labled Tehenu because he was probably a member of one Meshwesh units, thus he was labled Tehenu. The personage that is second from the Egyptians which is labled an Asian, eventhough he is clearly a Tehenu, was probably a member of a Syrian Palestinian unit when he was captured by the Egyptians thusly he was labled Asian. You can find out more about this reality if you check out: David O'Connor, "The nature of Tjemhu (Libyan) society in later New Kingdom; in Libya and Egypt c1300-750 BC, (Ed.) by Athony Leahy (pp.29-113), SOAS Centre of Near and Middle Eastern Studies and the Society for Libyan Studies, 1990.

In the Table of Nation figure B we see the traditional depiction of a Tehenu, the sidelock, shoulder cape and clean face. The Temehu, called Meshwesh are different from the Tehenu and the original Tamehu recorded by the Egyptians prior to the New Kingdom. Below is a Meshwesh


The Meshwesh wore Tehenu traditional costumes but they are not believed to be real Tehenu. The Tehenu and the Temehu usually wore different costumes. In the New Kingdom depictions of the Temehu, the Meshwesh have "long chin beards", like the Syrian-Palestinians and Peoples of the Sea. They wear kilts, sheaths and capes open at the front tied at one shoulder. Like the earlier Tehenu they wore feathers as a sign of High Status.

David O'Connor makes it clear that there was "marked hetergeneity of the Tjemhu" (p.41). The first attack by Libyans on Egypt were led by the Libu during the 5th year of Ramses III's reign. Diop has provided convincing evidence that the Libu, later migrated into Senegal, where they presenly live near Cape Verde

The difference in dress among the Meshwesh and their hostility toward the Tehenu, have led many researchers to see the Temehu of the New Kingdom as a different group from the original Temehu of Egyptian traditions. O'Connor (p.74) in the work cited above makes it clear that the Temehu in Ramses III day--"[have] hairstyles, dress and apparently ethnic type [that] are markedly different from the Tjehnyu/tjemhu of the Old Kingdom (Osing, 1980,1018-19). Various explanations have been offered: Wainwright, for example, concluded that 'Meshwesh was a mixed tribe of Libu like tribesmen with their native chiefs who become subject to a family of Tjehnu origin'(1962,p.92), while Osing suggested that the New Kingdowm Tjemhu had displaced or absorbed the earlier Tjehnyu but had selectively taken over or retained some Tjehnyu traits, in the case of the rulers for Meshwesh (1980,1019-1020). Dr. O'Connor is of the opinion "that some rulers of the later New Kingdom Tjemhu deliberately adopted traits they discovered from the Egyptians to be charcteristic of ancient Tjehnyu/Tjemhu, so as to increase there prestige, or in some way had these traits imposed upon them by the Egyptians" (p.74).

It is my opinion that given the organiztion of the Libyans into mhwt "family or tribal groups', sometime prior to 1230 BC over an extended period of time Indo-European speaking people later to be known as Peoples of the Sea entered Western Asia and Libya and were adopted by Tehenu families. This adoption of the new immigrants by Tehenu/Tamehu probably led to the Meshwesh and Soped adopting Tehenu customs but maintaining their traditional beards,. The original Temehu, like the Libu probably saw the integration of Sea Peoples into Temehu society as a way to increase their number and possibily conquer Egypt. It is interesting to note that the Meshwesh were very sure they might be able to conquor the Egyptians because they brought their cattle and other animals with them when they invaded the country. Moreover whereas the Meshwesh, were semi-nomadic, the Sea Peoples: Akawashu, Lukki, Tursha., Sheklesh, and Sherden remained nomadic. and used the spear and round shield.

The Nehasyu were ancient members of the Tehenu/Temehu. This would explain the reason why the Meshwesh and Nehasyu were mainly bowman.

In conclusion, the names for the personages in the Table of Nations from Ramses III tomb were labled correctly. These personages were recorded in the the Tables based on the military and family units were attached too, not the country identifiable by their dress.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The document is spiritual in nature and has nothing
at all to do with family units of military envoys.

All the depicted are dead in the Tuat/Dwat and have
just been resurrected and are about to have their
time in the next world allotted to them.

The artists had a standard guide book for their samples.
No models stood and posed before them.

The attire of the men labeled Tjemehu is the national
garb of Syria.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
The mdw ntr associated with the first cartoon image labels him Tjemehu not Meshwesh.
Nor does the word Tehenu appear anywhere in the second image. The word is, again, Tjemehu

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Tehenu and the Meshwesh


Meshwesh


Tehenu Second Personage from the Left

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
The mdw ntr associated with the first cartoon image labels him Tjemehu not Meshwesh.
Nor does the word Tehenu appear anywhere in the second image. The word is, again, Tjemehu

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Tehenu and the Meshwesh


Meshwesh


Tehenu Second Personage from the Left

---

---

Agreed. The term is Tjemehu , which replaced the term for Tehenu as I discussed above. It is the braid which makes it clear this personage was a Tehenu. It is the feathers that identify the first personage as a Meshwesh.


The use of different names to describe the Tehenu and Asian in the Ramses III Table of Nations is understood in relation to the political and ethnic conditions in Egypt and Western Asia during this period. The research appears to indicate that the physiognomy of the Libyans had changed by this time . This resulted , for the most part from the invasion of Egypt by Sea Peoples in association with the Libu (Libyans).

The figures on Ramses III Table of nations are associated with the nations Ramses was dealing with iduring his reign. The Libyans attacked Egypt during the 5th and 11th years of Ramses III's reign. Beginning around 1230 Sea People began to attack Egypt. In 1180 Ramses III had his decisive battle with the Libyans. Among the warriors fighting with the Libu were Sea People.

Ramses III made multiple versions of his campaigns against the Libyans. To understand the naming method for Ramses III Table of Nations you have to understand that the term Tehenu was a generic term applied to the Libyans, who by this time were mixed with Palestinian-Syrian people (who were descendants of the Gutians), and People of the Sea (Indo-Europeans).

The attack against Egypt in 1188 was a coalition of tribal groups led by the Meshwesh, who are believed to be a Tamehu nationality. As a result, we find that the Meshwesh were referred to as Tehenu\Tamehu. This may not be correct because the Meshwesh are not mention in Egyptian text until the 14th Century BC.

The members of the coalition were led by Meshesher the wr 'ruler' of the coalition.Each group was led by a "great one" or a magnate. The Meshwesh were semi-nomads that lived both in villages and dmi'w 'towns'.The Tehenu lived in the Delta between the Temehu and the Egyptians. The Egyptians referred to all of the people in this area most often by the generic tern "Tehenu".

The TjemhuTemehu which included the Meshwesh controled an area from Cyrenaica to Syria. As a result, in textual material from the reign of Ramses II, there is mention of Temehu towns in Syria. David O'Connor makes it clear that Ramses III referred to these Temehu by the term Tehenu/Tjehnyu (p.64).

The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it claim that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).


.


.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Given that by this time and for the purpose of the
vignette all the major ethnies could be represented
by any one of their subgroups.

Also it's true we know the war along the littoral
progressed west to east with each easternmost
group succumbing to the march of the Meshwesh.
However, the plume is not particularly "Meshweshy"
Tjemehu adjacent to Nehesi polities had it before
the wars.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^Indeed, the Tehenu and Kushites were two entirely different ethnicities and there is no evidence to suggest either settled Anatolia or link the Hatti languages with them as there is no accurate linguistics to suggest a relationship with any of these languages with "Mande" let alone the Hatti language.

More Winters psuedo nonsense.
 

---

Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
It's important to note that unlike ours, AE usage of the word Tehenu was always toponymic, not ethnonymic TMK, while Tmhhw was the other way around. Tehenu's inhabitants were called Hh3tyw "princes". I'm curious about this appellation though... Why princes? Could this be attributed to a social stratification dating from a common life with Egyptians?

Also alTakruri, if you have already seen it more clearly before, could you describe the hairdress on the head of the first character from the left?


 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^Indeed, the Tehenu and Kushites were two entirely different ethnicities and there is no evidence to suggest either settled Anatolia or link the Hatti languages with them as there is no accurate linguistics to suggest a relationship with any of these languages with "Mande" let alone the Hatti language.

More Winters psuedo nonsense.

---

Happy to see you're here troll. Its good to have a personal flunky. Thanks for your assistance Troll.


.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Assistance in what? Pointing out your obviously ridiculous assertions as usual? Sure, no problem
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Assistance in what? Pointing out your obviously ridiculous assertions as usual? Sure, no problem

---

Being my personal fool of course. Thank you for making me laugh.
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Damnit quit this kiddie hop and try to for once
keep a thread on some kind of quasi pseudo
scholarly academic level without all this ad
hominem shish.

Disagree? Sure. Just do it without mockery.

Disagreement happens all the time in all fields
but the professionals try to be a little
non-personal about it all.

Raise this forum, why can't we?
 

---

Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Looks like a ureaus(sp?) of some sort.
There are others here much more familiar
with headgear than I am. Hopefully they'll
fill you in with more precise specifics.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:


Also alTakruri, if you have already seen it more clearly before, could you describe the hairdress on the head of the first character from the left?

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
[/QB][/QUOTE]

^It seems a blow up or zoom in of the picture is in order for us to see the finer details.

From left to right, the first figure does look like he is wearing the uraeus, while the second and fifth figures wear fillet headbands.
 

---

Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri~:
What do you think about the Eastern Libyans (of the Egyptian records) and
the Maghrebi Imazighen being related by language but more loosely related
as far as geneaology?

---

Is there actually substantial evidence supporting the claim of a linguistic relationship between the two? Are these conclusions only based on sound similarities of ethnonyms and anthroponyms? If yes do they share a meaning? Perhaps could they only be explained by phonological distribution and are not any more relevant than BAIYE(?)'s Yoruba & Japanese toponyms.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Ghadames Libyan dancers:

http://www.galenfrysinger.com/ghadames_dancers.htm



The Tuaregs and other tribal groups of Ghadames and elsewhere are an example of the descendants of the ancient pastoralist nomads of Southern Libya:

http://www.khadijateri.com/ghadames.html

And... best of all, you can GO THERE and experience it for yourself! These people would be HAPPY to share their history and culture with you!

http://www.timbesttravel.com/festival-calendar.asp

http://www.fesfestival.com/

As opposed to staring at a computer screen and crawling forums all day....

Another thing that is interesting to note is the dress. While many call it Middle Eastern or Muslim, a lot of it can also be found in Egypt. There are many fancier examples of clothing found in Egypt from art or actual textiles that are not often mentioned in modern history books. The thing to remember is that white was a ceremonial and sacred color for the dead, akin to the pure white of Christian and Muslim apocrypha. But everyday wear was much more varied than that. Also, note the shoes from the Maghreb, the precursors of todays modern leather sneaker and such....
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Ghadames Libyan dancers:

http://www.galenfrysinger.com/ghadames_dancers.htm



The Tuaregs and other tribal groups of Ghadames and elsewhere are an example of the descendants of the ancient pastoralist nomads of Southern Libya:

http://www.khadijateri.com/ghadames.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri~:
What do you think about the Eastern Libyans (of the Egyptian records) and
the Maghrebi Imazighen being related by language but more loosely related
as far as geneaology?

---

Is there actually substantial evidence supporting the claim of a linguistic relationship between the two? Are these conclusions only based on sound similarities of ethnonyms and anthroponyms? If yes do they share a meaning? Perhaps could they only be explained by phonological distribution and are not any more relevant than BAIYE(?)'s Yoruba & Japanese toponyms.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

^It seems a blow up or zoom in of the picture is in order for us to see the finer details.

From left to right, the first figure does look like he is wearing the uraeus, while the second and fifth figures wear fillet headbands.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
My god man, Yorubaland and Japan are separated by 1000's of miles.
Of course any similarities by that example is
just wishful thinking.

In North Africa we have this continuity in the
M-Z-GH root in writings extending from Herodotus
right up to now.

In North Africa we have obvious related peoples whereas
that far fetched comparison is between two peoples
not remotely related in the least.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri~:
What do you think about the Eastern Libyans (of the Egyptian records) and
the Maghrebi Imazighen being related by language but more loosely related
as far as geneaology?

---

Is there actually substantial evidence supporting the claim of a linguistic relationship between the two? Are these conclusions only based on sound similarities of ethnonyms and anthroponyms? If yes do they share a meaning? Perhaps could they only be explained by phonological distribution and are not any more relevant than BAIYE(?)'s Yoruba & Japanese toponyms.

---

---

quote:

---

... it is only reasonable to suppose that the
xanthochroids of the Egyptian monuments and
classical notices were invaders in a country
primarily peopled with "autochthonous" blacks
and bruns. One may, as did de Quatrefages, say
truly that the origin of the African blonds is
as ye unknown, but it is, [] safe to say they
were immigrants.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
You're talking about something completely different
than what I commented on.

---

quote:

---

In taMazgha, year
one is the initial year of Shoshenq's reign.

---

quote:

---

I don't need to co-sign on your selection of THHNW
images since Bates indeed identified them as such,
even if I may or may not have personal reasons that
vary from his learned opinion.

---

quote:

---

But I do have requests for more scans if you please.

Fig 89

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
...I was actually wondering if the plumes & locks were actually worn by Tehenu (because the ornaments of those I posted look very different from those of the Tehenu from Sahure's tomb) or if it was a NK Tmhhw/Lbw/Mshwsh (i.e. a pale skinned, and maybe Euro) innovation. Maybe it would show that those Egyptian paintings of NK Libyans weren't depicting the Ancient Times' Wiggers some people are making them out to be.

---

quote:

---

89. Revamped Head (changed from Syrian to Libyan).
Beyt el-Waly. After a tracing of the original made by
G. Roeder

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^
Hmm...Sorry if it is a stupid question, but as my library's book is a 1914, not a 1912 edition, could you please tell me what does your fig.89 depict?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Bates (1912) isn't in color. He only paints
a verbal picture of black and "brun" Tehhenu.

... it is only reasonable to suppose that the
xanthochroids of the Egyptian monuments and
classical notices were invaders in a country
primarily peopled with "autochthonous" blacks
and bruns. One may, as did de Quatrefages, say
truly that the origin of the African blonds is
as ye unknown, but it is, [] safe to say they
were immigrants.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I can but opine that time (and fashion) didn't
stop with Sahure. I can't see plumes & locks
as aEuro innovation because I don't which
Euros went around like that and immigrated
to Africa. Besides the evidence that the
Eurasians who moved to Africa acculturated
to "Libyan" norms. NHHSW in the vicinity of
the TMHHW wore plumes (clickable link) and
the "Libyans" in that Aegean mural I posted
have their hair in matted locks.

---

Interesting because there is an attested Egyptian phrasal construction "T3y Mhhw" applied to Nhhsiw in HANNIG that means "who wear the feathers".

What is your opinion on the origin and the application of this ethnonym? Do you think it was a reference to only one people?

My original opinion about it was that of SALL, i.e. that the term had a cultural value and was used to describe different people (those close to Yam, those from the MK's and the others from NK's painting) having a nomad way of life and living in desertic regions.

Robert DREWS (2000) pointed out that there exist NK scenes depicting Asiatic warriors wearing helmet feathers as well and Babacar SALL reported that late Predynastic "Invaders from the East" were depicted with feathers, so I remain suspicious about the feathers of NK's EL being a cultural African trait.

Also:


As you can see, the open robe is found among Hittites as well as NK Libyans. Maybe it is an Eurasian import?

quote:

---

It's your choice but I don't see the need for
using wigger in our discussion. For me the
Mediterranean littoral Africans en masse are
not white/European. They are indigenous dark
Africans who established links with the folk
across the sea and heavily "marrying" those
folks' women (thus lightening up or further
lightening their complexion).

North Mediterranean, the truly white peoples,
though noting occasional blonds amongst Libyans
constantly classify them with the other dark
peoples known to them. This assessment remains
true clear up to Islamic times when al~Jahiz
likewise classes Berbers as a black people.

I think even before the Sea Peoples some whites
trickled into North Africa and they explain any
mentions of minority people of pallour in the
Maghreb and the Sahara adjoining it.

At least this is what I gather from reviewing
remarks of contemporaneous Greco-Latin writers
(clickable link).

---

This may be an assessment due to the later than NK Berbers interbreeding of with some Eurasians", right?
WILSON's chart below seems to be consistent with the theory of Mshwsh being the first recorded Berbers and Libu being usually not mixed with Africans. Perhaps it could be supported by the absence of penis sheath (African trait)among the latter.

 

---

Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Coon made up a bunch of -oid suffixed races like
Congoid
Capoid
etc
which his successor, Baker, continued to use and
backward folk still loosely sling around, as I
believe, as a way to be pejorative without blatantly
appearing to be so.

---

I often wonder if Coon wasn't motivated partly by some sort of overcompensation against his own name?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^LMFO I have often wondered about that also, Rasol.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
I can but opine that time (and fashion) didn't
stop with Sahure. I can't see plumes & locks
as aEuro innovation because I don't which
Euros went around like that and immigrated
to Africa. Besides the evidence that the
Eurasians who moved to Africa acculturated
to "Libyan" norms. NHHSW in the vicinity of
the TMHHW wore plumes (clickable link) and
the "Libyans" in that Aegean mural I posted
have their hair in matted locks.

---

Interesting because there is an attested Egyptian phrasal construction "T3y Mhhw" applied to Nhhsiw in HANNIG that means "who wear the feathers".

What is your opinion on the origin and the application of this ethnonym? Do you think it was a reference to only one people?

My original opinion about it was that of SALL, i.e. that the term had a cultural value and was used to describe different people (those close to Yam, those from the MK's and the others from NK's painting) having a nomad way of life and living in desertic regions.

Robert DREWS (2000) pointed out that there exist NK scenes depicting Asiatic warriors wearing helmet feathers as well and Babacar SALL reported that late Predynastic "Invaders from the East" were depicted with feathers, so I remain suspicious about the feathers of NK's EL being a cultural African trait.

---

quote:

---

Also:


As you can see, the open robe is found among Hittites as well as NK Libyans. Maybe it is an Eurasian import?

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

It's your choice but I don't see the need for
using wigger in our discussion. For me the
Mediterranean littoral Africans en masse are
not white/European. They are indigenous dark
Africans who established links with the folk
across the sea and heavily "marrying" those
folks' women (thus lightening up or further
lightening their complexion).

North Mediterranean, the truly white peoples,
though noting occasional blonds amongst Libyans
constantly classify them with the other dark
peoples known to them. This assessment remains
true clear up to Islamic times when al~Jahiz
likewise classes Berbers as a black people.

I think even before the Sea Peoples some whites
trickled into North Africa and they explain any
mentions of minority people of pallour in the
Maghreb and the Sahara adjoining it.

At least this is what I gather from reviewing
remarks of contemporaneous Greco-Latin writers
(clickable link).

---

This may be an assessment due to the later than NK Berbers interbreeding of with some Eurasians", right?
WILSON's chart below seems to be consistent with the theory of Mshwsh being the first recorded Berbers and Libu being usually not mixed with Africans. Perhaps it could be supported by the absence of penis sheath (African trait)among the latter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
At one time the far right figure was labeled "Libyan"
but is now, more often than not, labeled Hittite.
And true I've seen siege scenes where Hittites do
wear woven garments similar to the leather garments
of Libyans.

Yet, that rightmost figure is strikingly recollective
of Meshmesh (except missing beard).

Does anyone why the rightmost figure is definitively Hittite?

---

quote:

---

The nomenclature of Strabo is neither so extensive, nor does it contain more precise or correct information. He mentions the celebrated oasis of Ammonium and the nation of the Nasamones. Farther west, behind Carthage and the Numidians, he also notices the Getulians, and after them the Garamantes, a people who appear to have colonized both the oasis of Ghadames and the oases of Fezzan. Ptolemy makes the whole of the Mauritania, including Algeria and Morocco, to be bounded on the south by tribes, called Gaetuliae and Melanogaeluti, on the south the latter evidently having contracted alliance of blood with the negroes.

According to Sallust, who supports himself upon the authority of Heimpsal, the Carthaginian historian, “North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics,” says Sallust, “of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain.” 48

The Persians, mixing themselves with the former inhabitants of the coast, formed the tribes called Numides, or Numidians (which embrace the provinces of Tunis and Constantina), whilst the Medes and the Armenians, allying themselves with the Libyans, nearer to Spain, it is pretended, gave existence to a race of Moors, the term Medes being changed into that of Moors. 49

As to the Getulians confined in the valleys of the Atlas, they resisted all alliance with the new immigrants, and formed the principal nucleus of those tribes who have ever remained in North Africa, rebels to a foreign civilization, or rather determined champions of national freedom, and whom, imitating the Romans and Arabs, we are pleased to call Barbarians or Berbers (Barbari Br�ber 50), and whence is derived the name of the Barbary States. But the Romans likewise called the aboriginal tribes of North Africa, Moors, or Mauri, and some contend that Moors and Berbers are but two different names for the aboriginal tribes, the former being of Greek and the latter of African origin. The Romans might, however, confound the African term berber with barbari, which latter they applied, like the Greeks, to all strangers and foreigners. The revolutions of Africa cast a new tribe of emigrants upon the North African coast, who, if we are to believe the Byzantine historian, Procopius, of the sixth century, were no other than Canaanites, expelled from Palestine by the victorious arms of Joshua, when he established the Israelites in that country. Procopius affirms that, in his time, there was a column standing at Tigisis, on which was this inscription: — “We are those who fled from the robber Joshua, son of Nun.” 51 Now whether Tigisis was in Algeria, or was modern Tangier, as some suppose, it is certain there are several traditions among the Berber tribes of Morocco, which relate that their ancestors were driven out of Palestine. Also, the Berber historian, Ebn–Khal-Doun, who flourished in the fourteenth century, makes all the Berbers descend from one Bar, the son of Mayigh, son of Canaan. However, what may be the truths of these traditions of Sallust or Procopius, there is no difficulty in believing that North Africa was peopled by fugitive and roving tribes, and that the first settlers should be exposed to be plundered by succeeding hordes; for such has been the history of the migrations of all the tribes of the human race.

But the most ancient historical fact on which we can depend is, the invasion, or more properly, the successive invasions of North Africa by the Phoenicians. Their definite establishment on these shores took place towards the foundation of Carthage, about 820 years before our era. Yet we know little of their intercourse or relations with the aboriginal tribes. When the Romans, a century and a half before Christ, received, or wrested, the rule of Africa from the Phoenicians, or Carthaginians, they found before them an indigenous people, whom they indifferently called Moors, Berbers, or Barbarians. A part of these people were called also Nudides, which is perhaps considered the same term as nomades.

Some ages later, the Romans, too weak to resist a vigorous invasion of other conquerors, were subjugated by the Vandals, who, during a century, held possession of North Africa; but, after this time, the Romans again raised their heads, and completely expelled or extirpated the Vandals, so that, as before, there were found only two people or races in Africa: the Romans and the Moors, or aborigines.

Towards the middle of the seventh century after Christ, and a few years after the death of Mahomet, the Romans, in the decline of their power, had to meet the shock of the victorious arms of the Arabians, who poured in upon them triumphant from the East; but, too weak to resist this new tide of invasion, they opposed to them the aborigines, which latter were soon obliged to continue alone the struggle.

The Arabian historians, who recount these wars, speak of Roumi or Romans (of the Byzantine empire) and the Br�ber — evidently the aboriginal tribes — who promptly submitted to the Arabs to rid themselves of the yoke of the Romans; but, after the retreat of their ancient masters, they revolted and remained a long time in arms against their new conquerors — a rule of action which all subjugated nations have been wont to follow. Were we English now to attempt to expel the French from Algeria, we, undoubtedly, should be joined by the Arabs; but who would, most probably, soon also revolt against us, were we to attempt to consolidate our dominion over them.

In the first years of the eighth century, and at the end of the first century of the Hegira, the conquering Arabs passed over to Spain, and, inasmuch as they came from Mauritania, the people of Spain gave them the name of Moors (that of the aborigines of North Africa), although they had, perhaps, nothing in common with them, if we except their Asiatic origin. Another and most singular name was also given to these Arab warriors in France and other parts of Europe — that of Saracens — whose etymology is extremely obscure. 52 From this time the Spaniards have always given the names of Moors (los Moros), not only to the Arabs of Spain, but to all the Arabs; and, confounding farther these two denominations, they have bestowed the name of Moros upon the Arabs of Morocco and those in the environs of Senegal.

The Arabs who invaded Northern Africa about 650, were all natives of Asia, belonging to various provinces of Arabia, and were divided into Ismaelites, Amalekites, Koushites, &c. They were all warriors; and it is considered a title of nobility to have belonged to their first irruption of the enthusiastic sons of the Prophet.

A second invasion took place towards the end of the ninth century — an epoch full of wars — during which, the Caliph Ka�m transported the seat of his government from Kairwan to Cairo, ending in the complete submission of Morocco to the power of Yousef Ben Tashfin. One cannnot now distinguish which tribe of Arabs belong to the first or the second invasion, but all who can shew the slightest proof, claim to belong to the first, as ranking among a band of noble and triumphant warriors.

After eight centuries of rule, the Arabs being expelled from Spain, took refuge in Barbary, but instead of finding the hospitality and protection of their brethren, the greater part of them were pillaged or massacred. The remnant of these wretched fugitives settled along the coast; and it is to their industry and intelligence that we owe the increase, or the foundation of many of the maritime cities. Here, considered as strangers and enemies by the natives, whom they detested, the new colonists sought for, and formed relations with Turks and renegades of all nations, whilst they kept themselves separate from the Arabs and Berbers. This, then, is the bon�-fide origin of the people whom we now generally call Moors. History furnishes us with a striking example of how the expelled Arabs of Spain united with various adventurers against the Berber and North African Arabs. In the year 1500, a thousand Andalusian cavaliers, who had emigrated to Algiers, formed an alliance with the Barbarossas and their fleet of pirates; and, after expelling the native prince, built the modern city of Algiers. And such was the origin of the Algerine Corsairs.

The general result of these observations would, therefore, lead us to consider the Moors of the Romans, as the Berbers or aborigines of North Africa, and the Moors of the Spaniards, as pure Arabians; and if, indeed, these Arabian cavaliers marshalled with them Berbers, as auxiliaries, for the conquest of Spain, this fact does not militate against the broad assumption.

The so-called Moors of Senegal and the Sahara, as well as those of Morocco, are chiefly a mixture of Berbers, Arabs and Negroes; but the present Moors located in the northern coast of Africa, are rather the descendants from the various conquering nations, and especially from renegades and Christian slaves.

The term Moors is not known to the natives themselves. The people speak definitely enough of Arabs and of various Berber tribes. The population of the towns and cities are called generally after the names of these towns and cities, whilst Tuniseen and Tripoline is applied to all the inhabitants of the great towns of Tunis and Tripoli. Europeans resident in Barbary, as a general rule, call all the inhabitants of towns — Moors, and the peasants or people residents in tents — Arabs. But, in Tripoli, I found whole villages inhabited by Arabs, and these I thought might be distinguished as town Arabs. Then the mountains of Tripoli are covered with Arab villages, and some few considerable towns are inhabited by people who are bon�-fide Arabs. Finally, the capitals of North Africa are filled with every class of people found in the country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

But I do have requests for more scans if you please.

Fig 89

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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
^^Thanks Djehuti, I just figured out I didn't know what the word "helmet" meant.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL No problem. By the way, where does that sketch come from anyway?
 

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Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
From a German language site:


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Can you provide me a link to this site? Also, what actual Egyptian depictions are the sketches based on?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Midogbe

Thanks for scanning and posting Bate's fig 89.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Almost every Meshwesh depicted in Bates wears a 'kippah'

What's most unusual, to me, is the lack of any kind
of beard. That may've been one consideration prompting
Bates to label the figure as a female Libyan (though
otherwise I see nothing particularly feminine about it).

===================
truth is prism refracted fact
i'm just another point of view
===================

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Good question. Perhaps because of the different designs of his garment, or better yet, the fact that he is missing tattoos and the type of hat he wears.

---

 

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Posted by MyRedCow (Member # 10893) on :
 
Djehuti,

This is a site on Amazigh/AE martial arts. There are even more pics:

http://www.tamzalla.de/tamzalla_ryu.php

http://www.tamzalla.de/tamzalla_ryu_fr.php
French! that's readable.

and check out the map on the German page!



The French page:





And this page:

http://www.tamzalla.de/tammazla.php

Check out the Black Moroccan archer.


Thanks Djehuti, I would have missed the French and would have been able to read the German.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Red Cow, there ancient martial combat techniques of Saharan and Northern Africans among the current descendants of those populations in Africa is not is not strictly an "Amazigh" issue, as these traits can be seen from Sudan to Morocco going back 5,000 years or more. Archery as a means of protection, combat and hunting probably goes back prior to that in Africa and is PURELY African and also has a WIDE pattern of dispersal among many ancient African populations across Africa that are older than ancient Egypt. The rock art of the Sahara is an example of ancient archery in Africa. Trying to tie this to "Amazighs" as a unique trait of a LANGUAGE group is ridiculous. Such techniques of self defense, combat and hunting are as old as man himself and goes back many tens of thousands of years. This is why Hercules was often depicted as a black African, symbolizing the ancient stone age Super Hunter of the Savanna of Africa. Such skills were essential to the survival of human beings in the crowded environment of Africa since the development of the human species and has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with any language speakers that can be called "Amazigh".

quote:

---

Although many ancient African cultures, such as the Egyptians, Nubians, and Ethiopians, were prominent for their mastery of archery on the battlefield, projectile weapons such as spears and throwing knives tended to predominate as weapons of war in more recent periods. Still, the folklore and histories of many African peoples describe archery-related feats both in the hunt and in battle, and the development of archery skills remains an important aspect of a boy’s education in many African cultures. The bow and arrow are still commonly used in rural areas for hunting game and in some urban areas as an inexpensive but effective means of protection.

The most widespread traditional bow form in Africa is a simple wood stave that is round in cross section and tapers toward the tips. Bows of flattened or grooved staves also occur frequently. African bows tend to be of moderate length, typically ranging from 100 cm to 170 cm, and are distinguished by a number of characteristic string-attachment techniques, including knotted, eyeleted, and indirect forms. Bowstrings usually are of twisted sinew in eastern and southern Africa and of animal hide or plant material in the central and western regions. Bows are fairly plain; ornamentation usually is limited to animal-skin wrappings that provide decoration as well as support.

---

From: http://anthromuseum.missouri.edu/grayson/africaarchery/africaarchery.shtml

Also note the following:


is quite similar to


The biggest similarity being the crossed bandolier being found all over Africa from Saharan rock art to tomb art of Egyptian archers to various tuareg groups. BTW, the image of the dark brown archer is from the tombs of the Dahkla oasis in Egypt. There are tombs in ALL of the oasis of Egypt from Dakhla, to Bhahariya and Kharga going back to the old kingdom. However, these tombs are very rarely showcased to the public and therefore the photos from them are not often found on the web.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
BTW, I forgot to post this, whenever we often come back to this issue of the ethnic identity of those western populations called Tehenu and Tejenu on this forum. But there are a great many tombs in the Western Oases of Egypt that CLEARLY show the populations of these areas being NOT much different than those of Egypt and Sudan. These tomb images, as I said earlier, are not as prominent or well known as those from Egypt, but there are a great many of them to say the least. From these images it becomes plainly clear that Africans were indeed always in these areas and puts to doubt any idea of FOREIGNERS being the sole ethnic group to the west of Egypt in ancient times. I have some photos that I found on a French site that I will try and find and post if I can....

Found the site and here is an example of an image from Dakhla oasis:


http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/dakhla_balat_ain_asil/dakhla_balat_ain_asil_qila_el_dabba.html
(Across the top of the page you will see the links to other oasis sites.)

Old kingom example from Kharga (Khentka, governor of Kharga under Pepi):


There were more that I remember, but this site has plenty of photos from all over, including those not seen on other sites.

Compare the above with those from an Egyptian administrator named Pennout from the South of Egypt under Ramses VI:





From: http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/pennout/lac_nasser_tombe_pennout.html

The point here being that the historical ethnic make up of the populations to the West of Egypt in ancient times was related to the populations along the Nile itself. They werent that much different, even after the arrival of the "sea peoples" and other invaders in the New Kingdom. It was only relatively recently (last 2000 years) that foreign types began to predominate in these areas.

Heres more from Bahariya (26th dynasty):




From: http://alain.guilleux.free.fr/bahariyah_bawiti/bahariyah_bawiti_qasr_selim_tombes_bannentiu_djedamuniufankh.html
 

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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
Reproduction of MK foreigners painting from Beni Hasan:



I wonder if those people are Libyans as BATES claimed. Maybe it's just me but I don't see any Libyan cultural feature among them. Thoughts?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Great pics Doug. The only pictures I've seen from the an Oasis tomb was that on recent excavation of the golden mummies from Kharga Oasis by Hawass. In it were several pictures of dark-brown (black) natives. Other than that, I seen non whatsoever.

I wish more pictures were available to the public. I don't know why, considering such paintings are not much different from the usual dark-brown peoples painted on other Egyptian tombs in the Nile Valley including the Valley of the Kings.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Since, in this case, Bates gives his source, we need
but examine it to see what the accompanying Rn Mdw
text says.

And thanks again for another scan from Bates.

You too RedBull for the map from Bates showing Rebu
(alternate spelling for Libu -- whence Libue and Libya)
at Cyrenaica, Libya.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
Reproduction of MK foreigners painting from Beni Hasan:

[image is above]

I wonder if those people are Libyans as BATES claimed. Maybe it's just me but I don't see any Libyan cultural feature among them. Thoughts?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by sefardi3point2:
Anyone else think it strange that the 'fairer' Tamhou (whether they looked like 'blond-europeans' or simply 'olive-skinned Meds' or ancient 'Sicilians') were located further south than the more Egyptian and African looking Tehennu?

---

Where is it that you find that the Egyptians put the fairer Tamhou further south than the African looking Tehennu? In fact, the images and classifications above indicate the opposite, that the Tehenu were considered more coastal variants and the Tamhou were considered closer, physically and geographically to the Nile Valley itself. So I dont understand where you are getting this Southern blonde haired type next to Southern blacks from..



Likewise I have shown tomb images from various dynasties in the Oasis corresponding to the areas labelled as Tamhou on the map above and none of them strike me as being anything but indigenous African.

Do you mind me asking for some references to these people being "southerners". I dont disagree with the blonde haired Libyan, but I do disagree with them being labelled as "southerners".
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Some photos:

Algerian woman, from late 1800s:
http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_4_gif/fig_195_50.gif

Other interesting photos from Egypt and elsewhere in North Africa:
Gustave Le Bon, La civilisation des Arabes (1884).

Like these:
(Egyptians)
http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_4_gif/fig_167_50.gif

http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_4_gif/fig_180_50.gif

(Algerians)
http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_4_gif/fig_196_50.gif
http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_4_gif/fig_164_50.gif

http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_3_gif/fig_114_50.gif

(Berber?)
Woman making couscous:
http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_3_gif/fig_115_50.gif

Moroccan:
http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/le_bon_gustave/civilisation_des_arabes/gravures/gravures_livre_4_gif/fig_197_50.gif
 

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Posted by sefardi3point2 (Member # 11090) on :
 
DougM, to be honest, I got that notion of 'southern' Tamehou from this discussion site - the egyptsearch forums. I've been reading these boards for about a year now, and that - the whole 'north/south' thing, specifically the Tamhou being further away from the sea than the Tehennu - was the impression that I got.

I apologize for presenting it as 'fact', but it was nonetheless an impression I got from reading these boards. I make no claim to have researched it otherwise.
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sefardi3point2:
DougM, to be honest, I got that notion of 'southern' Tamehou from this discussion site - the egyptsearch forums. I've been reading these boards for about a year now, and that - the whole 'north/south' thing, specifically the Tamhou being further away from the sea than the Tehennu - was the impression that I got.

I apologize for presenting it as 'fact', but it was nonetheless an impression I got from reading these boards. I make no claim to have researched it otherwise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sefardi3point2:
DougM, to be honest, I got that notion of 'southern' Tamehou from this discussion site - the egyptsearch forums. I've been reading these boards for about a year now, and that - the whole 'north/south' thing, specifically the Tamhou being further away from the sea than the Tehennu - was the impression that I got.

I apologize for presenting it as 'fact', but it was nonetheless an impression I got from reading these boards. I make no claim to have researched it otherwise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Midogbe

Again, and hate to put you through such paces, but
if you have the time and it doesn't impose on you,
please, could you scan and post the map relating to Berber in

Joseph O. Vogel (ed)
Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa
London AltaMira 1997
the article by
Kay Williamson
Western African Languages in Historical Perspective

It should go in the TAMAZIGHT - a branch of the Afrisan family of African languages thread

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:
Just look at the vignette and
look at the map you reposted.

---

To be honest, the map shows the Tehemu almost on top of the Nile valley and probably is not that accurate given that it was done in modern times. My point being that how do we get a geographic reference solely from ancient Egypt? Just because the modern map shows the tehemu in those places doesnt mean that the vignette from SetiI was referring to the same people in the same places. Note that the saite or libyan period Egyptian mummies and artwork are just as African as those of any other period, if not moreso. Not to mention the other stuff from the western desert I mentioned before. This does not reflect a large scale blonde presence, which is why I am picking so hard at this point. Either they came and briefly forayed south before being overwhelmed by indigenous Africans or we are misinterpereting Seti's tomb evidence.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Not only does the map show the TMHHW further south
than the THHNW, the arrow following the name points
even further south.

Have you noticed I suggested matching the accoutrements
of the depicted to what we know of the various Ament.x3st
folk to see whether labeling them TMHHW was generic or
specific.

As for blonds, I have yet to see an AE painting of
any blond Libyans whatsoever. Notices of blonds among
Libyans are written in Greco-Latin accounts and date
a thousand years later than the folk under discussion.
 

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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
^^
Don't know if WILSON was referring to the same haircut as that used to depict NK nHsiw, but from what I get the blonde hair reference comes from the same kind of hairstyle worn by nHsiw (wavy lines over a red base)as well as blue eyes (no pic of it sorry):


 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
NHHSW are often painted blond and red headed. I think
it was gold dust sprinkled in their hair or maybe the
effects of sun bleaching, not to rule out naturally
red headed folk.

Most here are of the opinion that the yellow&red is
from applying ochre as some Sudani ethnies still continue
doing to not just their hair but entire body eg. at
wrestling/mating festivals.


What's the citation for that page from the journal?

My comment remains that while I have READ much
about blond TMHHW to date I have yet to actually
SEE any such AE painting.

As Sergi noted a century ago, these so-called blonds
have nothing lighter than chestnut colored hair which
in Europe would class them as no more than brunette
at best.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
^^
Don't know if WILSON was referring to the same haircut as that used to depict NK nHsiw, but from what I get the blonde hair reference comes from the same kind of hairstyle worn by nHsiw (wavy lines over a red base)as well as blue eyes (no pic of it sorry):

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Posted by Please call me MIDOGBE (Member # 9216) on :
 
^^
The Libyans and the End of the Egyptian Empire
John A. Wilson
The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures > Vol. 51, No. 2 (Jan., 1935), pp. 73-82

Sorry I'm definitely not knowledgeable about color alteration so I don't know which color of this character's hair preceded the other, but here is a pic of NK Libyan with a part of his hair nowadays being red (scan not mine, no idea about the source):

 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Do any of you guys think the white Tamahou share ancestry with the Sea Peoples they were so closely aligned with?
 

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Posted by Tyrannosaurus (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ When were Hittites ever 'mongoloid'??! What constitutes a 'mongoloid' affinity in the first place, and exactly how is this featured among Hittites??

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually most Eastern Europeans aren't blonde but are brunette (brown to light brown hair) blonde hair is much more common in the northern areas of Eastern Europe as it is with the rest of Europe. But regardless, you are referring to original or proto-Indo-European speakers. Most speakers of daughter Indo-European languages are dark-haired, from Italians and Greeks to Iranians and Indians.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Actually most Eastern Europeans aren't blonde but are brunette (brown to light brown hair) blonde hair is much more common in the northern areas of Eastern Europe as it is with the rest of Europe. But regardless, you are referring to original or proto-Indo-European speakers. Most speakers of daughter Indo-European languages are dark-haired, from Italians and Greeks to Iranians and Indians.

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Incidentally, what do you think the original Indo-Europeans looked like? And why did Indo-European languages come to be spoken by people as diverse as black Indians, Nordics, and tanned Mediterraneans/West Asians (Greeks, Turks, Italians, etc.)?

BTW, do you think there is a possibility that the Egyptians or nearby ancient civilizations ever encountered white or "Mongoloid" people?

---

Indo-European languages are spoken among Indians and Europeans because of Alexander Great. You see, the connection between these languages is Greek and Sanskrit.

These languages are related because when Panini wrote a grammar of Sanskrit , which was a lingua franca, Greeks were living India and spoken in the region Panini lived. Panini even mentions Greeks. Because of the numerous Pakrits spoken in India at this time along with Persian and Greek elements and shared vocabulary were included in Panini's grammar that allow us to see a connection between Sanskrit and the other Indo-European languages.

.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Nice infos on non-African white folks and Indo-European
languages.

Is info on the subject header, "The Tehenu," exausted?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Great find DougM! I hail your image search skills. And following
hard upon Rasol's comment, with their facial features and locks of
hair, these guys almost look like they could've walked right off the
wall of the TMHHW section of Seti I's tomb vignette 30 of BG 4:5.



Makes me wonder more and more if the pale colouring may've been
symbolically expressive of their dwelling in Ament.x3st a.k.a. the
Duat (Twat) -- land of the dead, and death's symbolic color was ...
... well, er, um ... you know ... white.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
Unfortunately, with the modern distribution of these languages along coastal North Africa, many assume that these are the people being referred to in ancient texts. That is not the case.

Along these lines I have noticed that many of the old photos of Africans in Mauretania look very much like the Fuzzy wuzzies of the Sudan and Egypt, the Bedja. Again, this shows the fact that many of these Berbers who were assumed to be Northern "coastal" groups were actually Saharan and Sahelian groups from across a WIDE SWATH of Africa.

Like these Mauretanians:

http://www.postcardman.net/158494.jpg

http://www.postcardman.net/158477.jpg

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quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
^ Good post, those photos offer possibly a realistic appearance similarity with the original proto-Berber.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:

Incidentally, what do you think the original Indo-Europeans looked like? And why did Indo-European languages come to be spoken by people as diverse as black Indians, Nordics, and tanned Mediterraneans/West Asians (Greeks, Turks, Italians, etc.)?

---

quote:

---

BTW, do you think there is a possibility that the Egyptians or nearby ancient civilizations ever encountered white or "Mongoloid" people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Indo-European languages are spoken among Indians and Europeans because of Alexander Great. You see, the connection between these languages is Greek and Sanskrit.

These languages are related because when Panini wrote a grammar of Sanskrit , which was a lingua franca, Greeks were living India and spoken in the region Panini lived. Panini even mentions Greeks. Because of the numerous Pakrits spoken in India at this time along with Persian and Greek elements and shared vocabulary were included in Panini's grammar that allow us to see a connection between Sanskrit and the other Indo-European languages.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tyrannosaurus:

Incidentally, what do you think the original Indo-Europeans looked like? And why did Indo-European languages come to be spoken by people as diverse as black Indians, Nordics, and tanned Mediterraneans/West Asians (Greeks, Turks, Italians, etc.)?

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Well since linguistics suggests that the homeland of proto-Indo-European lies somewhere in the Russian steppes, then its speakers likely looked Eastern European or 'Russian'(?)

As for how Indo-European languages expanded and took over so large an expanse of Eurasia, well that is still a matter of debate to this day but when considering the spread of other widely spoken language families such as Afrasian or Niger-Congo (Bantu especially) one would say it had something to do with either food production, technology, or both.

quote:

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BTW, do you think there is a possibility that the Egyptians or nearby ancient civilizations ever encountered white or "Mongoloid" people?

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'White' people certainly, considering Europe's proximity, but I don't know about East Asians.

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Indo-European languages are spoken among Indians and Europeans because of Alexander Great. You see, the connection between these languages is Greek and Sanskrit.

These languages are related because when Panini wrote a grammar of Sanskrit , which was a lingua franca, Greeks were living India and spoken in the region Panini lived. Panini even mentions Greeks. Because of the numerous Pakrits spoken in India at this time along with Persian and Greek elements and shared vocabulary were included in Panini's grammar that allow us to see a connection between Sanskrit and the other Indo-European languages.

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This is absolutely absurd. Indo-European languages spoken in India has nothing to do Alexander the Great no more than Afrasian languages spoken in southwest Asia had to do with Thutmose conquering the Levant!

The Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-European was spoken in Central Asia for at least 5,000 years, and it's entry to Indian subcontinent was 2,000 to 3,000 years.

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If you know so much answer these questions.

1a. Explain why Alexander the Greats introduction of the Greek language to India can not account for the relationship between Sanskrit and Greek.

1.Please explain to the people what Indian languages are related to the European languages ?

2. What is the relationship between the Iranian and Indo-European languages?

3.Are Iranian and Indo-European languages related? If so how are they related?

4. Are Iranian languages, Indo-European languages?

5. Where was this 5000 year old site where Indo-Iranian was spoken?

.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ For someone who claims to be a linguist, you ask such elementary questions, but considering your denial of Berber as an African language and your claim of Dravidian as one.. nevermind

Moving back to the topic of this thread...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB]
Great find DougM! I hail your image search skills. And following
hard upon Rasol's comment, with their facial features and locks of
hair, these guys almost look like they could've walked right off the
wall of the TMHHW section of Seti I's tomb vignette 30 of BG 4:5.



Makes me wonder more and more if the pale colouring may've been
symbolically expressive of their dwelling in Ament.x3st a.k.a. the
Duat (Twat) -- land of the dead, and death's symbolic color was ...
... well, er, um ... you know ... white.

Interesting pictorial find. Although I seriously do not think the 'white' Tamahou portrayed on tomb paintings was symbolic. Considering that symbolic depictions usually have figures painted in stark or blank white, whereas the Tamhou are all portrayed as having a pale moreso European 'white' appearance, with brownish hair and blue eyes.

I seriously think the Tamhou were a peoples of European extraction who totally adopted the culture and styles of the indigenous black inhabitants.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
OK, I'll ask this yet again since no one to date
has presented it. Where, oh where, is a painting
of blue eyed blond TMHHW in the entire catalog of
AE art?

I hear alot of talk, first made by Champollion who
so desperately had to find primitive Europeans in
association anyway possible with earliest civilization,
but never see a single instance.

I repeat, outside of late Graeco-Latin writings, there
are no blond haired less lone blue eyed ancient Libyans.
(Yes, I'm aware you wrote 'brownish hair.')

Northern Mediterraneans are not and were not Nordic
such that by mating with their women the indigenee
North Africans could in under a millenium produce an
entire ethny of a phenotype unknown in Africa and
sparsely if at all represented in the Aegean, Ionian,
or Tyrrhenian seas populations.

Mind you, red eyes have also been reportedly found
in AE portraiture. There are no people on earth with
red eyes. Still, I'm highly interested in a compilation
of blue (nearly black blue steel or pastel-like sky blue,
which one?) eyes and which ethnies the associated texts
assigns any such alleged individuals.

But no doubt the Libyan population in general, and
apparently especially so way westward among proto-aMazigh
Meshwesh, accrued a steady trickle of Euro infusion that
considerably altered their complexions. Since it was
the mommies who were whites and near whites we don't
have European expatriates wholescale adapting a foreign
culture, but rather what we have is the offspring of
the Euro-mommies quite naturally practicing what they
saw going on around them as they grew up among their
African fathers, uncles, aunts, and cousins.

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
... whereas the Tamhou are all portrayed as having a pale moreso European 'white' appearance, with brownish hair and blue eyes.

I seriously think the Tamhou were a peoples of European extraction who totally adopted the culture and styles of the indigenous black inhabitants.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ For someone who claims to be a linguist, you ask such elementary questions, but considering your denial of Berber as an African language and your claim of Dravidian as one.. nevermind

Moving back to the topic of this thread...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri:
[QB]
Great find DougM! I hail your image search skills. And following
hard upon Rasol's comment, with their facial features and locks of
hair, these guys almost look like they could've walked right off the
wall of the TMHHW section of Seti I's tomb vignette 30 of BG 4:5.



Makes me wonder more and more if the pale colouring may've been
symbolically expressive of their dwelling in Ament.x3st a.k.a. the
Duat (Twat) -- land of the dead, and death's symbolic color was ...
... well, er, um ... you know ... white.

Interesting pictorial find. Although I seriously do not think the 'white' Tamahou portrayed on tomb paintings was symbolic. Considering that symbolic depictions usually have figures painted in stark or blank white, whereas the Tamhou are all portrayed as having a pale moreso European 'white' appearance, with brownish hair and blue eyes.

I seriously think the Tamhou were a peoples of European extraction who totally adopted the culture and styles of the indigenous black inhabitants.

---

Do you mean tehenu or temehu? One is supposedly the aboriginal population of "Libyans", the other is supposedly a foreign derived group who came later.

These are Mauretanians. These mauretanians have features similar to those found amongst the Beja and other Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans. This seems to confirm what has been posted already, namely migrations from East Africa being the basis of the original populations speaking Berber languages. Mauretania was ORIGINALLY a Berber speaking region, before there was even a country called Mauretania. The people there were semi nomadic, with those of the South being more sedentary, with villages having been found in Tichitt going back to at least 2,000 BC.

Beja:




Whether these ancient Nilotic, Sudanic and Ethipic populations could be identified as the Temehu or Tehenu is a whole different question.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Doug M

quote:

---

These are Mauretanians. These mauretanians have features similar to those found amongst the Beja and other Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans. This seems to confirm what has been posted already, namely migrations from East Africa being the basis of the original populations speaking Berber languages. Mauretania was ORIGINALLY a Berber speaking region, before there was even a country called Mauretania. The people there were semi nomadic, with those of the South being more sedentary, with villages having been found in Tichitt going back to at least 2,000 BC.

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quote:

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I used to believe too that the original inhabitants of Mauretania and much of the Sahara were proto-Berber speakers. But, I do not now think that the Ancient Saharans were all proto-Berber.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
Doug M,

I used to believe too that the original inhabitants of Mauretania and much of the Sahara were proto-Berber speakers. But, I do not now think that the Ancient Saharans were all proto-Berber.

The original inhabitants of Mauretania were the Bafur. Dr. Winters says they were Mande speakers. Others say the same as Dr. Winters, that they were proto-Soninke who were Mande speakers.

I just found out that there is Rock Art in Sierra Leone. I can imagine there is Rock art in the countires north of Sierra Leone to Mauretania where I know Rock Art exists.

There is a French language article about a recent Rock Art find in Southern Morocco that shows Black people dancing around just like in Tassili-n- Ajjer and Ennedi, etc. Those Blacks in the newest Moroccan Rock Art paintings were described as Bantu or Hottentot.

The West Atlantic Language Family is proto-Bantu and many of the names of the people groups along the western coast of Africa have names beginning with Ba like

Bassari
Balanta
Banta
Bak
Banyun
Baga
and more...

Beafada is in Senegal and sounds pretty close to
Bafur the original Mauretanians. Look closely at the Rock Art and try to determine are those people displayed really proto-Berber types.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Takruri, I don't know how you could ask such a thing when TMHHW appear to have the same features as those modern day people and that both groups are associated with the western part of North Africa, not to mention that the modern day Rif and Kabyle speak African (Berber) languages.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
Doug M,

I used to believe too that the original inhabitants of Mauretania and much of the Sahara were proto-Berber speakers. But, I do not now think that the Ancient Saharans were all proto-Berber.

The original inhabitants of Mauretania were the Bafur. Dr. Winters says they were Mande speakers. Others say the same as Dr. Winters, that they were proto-Soninke who were Mande speakers.

I just found out that there is Rock Art in Sierra Leone. I can imagine there is Rock art in the countires north of Sierra Leone to Mauretania where I know Rock Art exists.

There is a French language article about a recent Rock Art find in Southern Morocco that shows Black people dancing around just like in Tassili-n- Ajjer and Ennedi, etc. Those Blacks in the newest Moroccan Rock Art paintings were described as Bantu or Hottentot.

The West Atlantic Language Family is proto-Bantu and many of the names of the people groups along the western coast of Africa have names beginning with Ba like

Bassari
Balanta
Banta
Bak
Banyun
Baga
and more...

Beafada is in Senegal and sounds pretty close to
Bafur the original Mauretanians. Look closely at the Rock Art and try to determine are those people displayed really proto-Berber types.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

Great find DougM! I hail your image search skills. And following
hard upon Rasol's comment, with their facial features and locks of
hair, these guys almost look like they could've walked right off the
wall of the TMHHW section of Seti I's tomb vignette 30 of BG 4:5.



Makes me wonder more and more if the pale colouring may've been
symbolically expressive of their dwelling in Ament.x3st a.k.a. the
Duat (Twat) -- land of the dead, and death's symbolic color was ...
... well, er, um ... you know ... white.

---

Do you mean tehenu or temehu? One is supposedly the aboriginal population of "Libyans", the other is supposedly a foreign derived group who came later.

These are Mauretanians. These mauretanians have features similar to those found amongst the Beja and other Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans.

...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
^^So?

How does that change the fact that a large part of the Mauretanian population used to speak Zenaga, a berber language as well? Those are the Berber speaking populations I am referring to. It is from them that the name Senegal derives, which is in the South of Mauretania and is derived from Zenaga which is another term for Sanhaja.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[

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quote:

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Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[

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These Mauretanians at Tichitt and other settlements are believed to have been Mande speakers, not Berber speakers.


. Could you give me a quote for this with a reference? Augustin Holl . 1985. "Subsistence Patterns of the Dhar Tichitt Neolithic, Mauritania," [italics] The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 3:151-162 and --- 2002. "Time, Space, and Image Making:Rock Art from the Dhar Tichitt (Mauritania)," [italics]The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 19(2): 75-118. does not name any group as the settlers of Dhar Tichitt. He says that the Berbers came after these settlements were abandoned.
Thanks

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
^^What I was posting is the fact that Black African populations are the basis of Berber culture and language who spread across the Sahara from East Africa. These populations share traits with SOME Sudanic, Ethiopic and Nilotic populations, particularly those like the Beja. Whatever the Tehenu looked like, creamy, tan or polka dot, they are NOT the basis of the populations from the Eastern Africa who originally migrated across the Sahara and eventually entered Mauretania.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
... Whatever the Tehenu looked like, creamy, tan or polka dot, ... the Tehenu, creamy complexioned or otherwise ... As for the facial features, profiles, hair styles and other attributes of the Tehenu,

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
... it is not necessarily true that this entrance into Mauretania was responsible for the destruction of Tichitt Walata because it probably occurred in a period long before the introduction of Islam and the eventual destruction of Walatta. It was after the Arabization/Islamization of Berber speaking groups that they began to be against animist African groups. To be clear, the entrance of Berber speakers into Mauretania was long before the introduction of Islam and therefore cannot be equated with the nature of the interactions between these groups AFTER the Islamization of these groups.

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

I meant precisely what I wrote.

Please take the time to compare and contrast the
pictured Zenaga with the Seti I tomb TMHHW for:
* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

There's a vast plethora of phenotypes between and
among "Sudanic, Nilotic and Ethiopic Africans."
Don't be overly simplistic in lumping so many
peoples into a category only a handfull actually
fit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Red,White, and Blue + Christian:
Dr. Winters,

This article has been copied to several websites and I was going to translate it. But, changed my mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

since we have modern day white Berber speakers like the Kabyle and Riff, do you not think it possible a connection?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

* Facial profile - straight (orthognous)
* Chin - tufted goatee beard
* Hair - thick locks
* Nose - thin nostrils, well defined bridge
* Face - gaunt (narrow)
* Body - slim wiry build

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... such features held in common was what was called 'caucasoid' ...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
... they were depicted as white! Of course NO African population truly and wholly indigenous to the continent is of that color.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
... Kabyle and Riff don't wear such style of hair ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

but what of a couple of millennia ago??

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
Again you have your places times and peoples all jumbled up.

And isn't it obvious that African populations are
are the basis of particular linqual-ethnies of Africa?

Neither is any one sole ethny "the basis of the populations from the Eastern Africa who originally migrated across the Sahara and eventually entered Mauretania."

So what's your point?

My point is those Zenaga images match the TMHHW
images by the characteristics I outlined. None
of the other pics you posted of eastern Africans
does so nowhere nearly identically as the Zenaga do.

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
^^What I was posting is the fact that Black African populations are the basis of Berber culture and language who spread across the Sahara from East Africa. These populations share traits with SOME Sudanic, Ethiopic and Nilotic populations, particularly those like the Beja. Whatever the Tehenu looked like, creamy, tan or polka dot, they are NOT the basis of the populations from the Eastern Africa who originally migrated across the Sahara and eventually entered Mauretania.

---

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quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

No I don't.

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quote:

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And why are you proliferating the inaccurate outmoded caucasoid concept? Do we have to dig up Manansala's Anthropology Primer again for those who still cling onto the fallacy?

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What makes you think I am somehow "promoting" that absurd Eurocentric racial (racist) concept?? Notice that I put quotations around the term. And for that reason, NO we don't have to bring up any anthropological assessment on the term or about the diversity of human cranio-facial features, let alone those displayed among indigenous Africans!

Why bring up Manansala as a recommendation to me? Because I share an common ethnic background as a Filipino?? I would prefer to go straight to the source that is Keita even though he is a black African.

quote:

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Let the record hereby show that YOU, not I, call these features caucasoid even though the two populations I'm comparing are both African not from the Caucasus or anywhere near there, Acacus notwithstanding.

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quote:

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A population is indigenous or not indigenous. There's no sliding scale of degrees 0% to 100%. Herodotus, a full 700 years after the creamy coloured TMHHW of the Seti I tomb painting, recognized two indigenous Libyan (African) populations; Libyan (Mediterranean littoral Africans) and Aithiopian (inner Africans). By then the Libyans had totally absorbed all the Sea Peoples or Trojan War refugees who settled west of ancient Egypt. He even noted such descent among certain Libyan ethnies yet he doesn't qualify them as partially indigenous and neither do I.

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quote:

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It's not so much the style as the inherent quality.

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quote:

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Sorry, I won't indulge this kind of "what if" speculation because it isn't based on anything.

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It's based on simple observation, as all conjectures or hypotheses are. That is all that I am making.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Djehuti

There was no need to mention that the set of features
I listed were caucasoid. By unwarrantedly bringing up
the word you keep it in memory and in that sense you promote it.

This is a lesson in dialectic. That's all. Not painting
you to be retentive.

Why Manansala? Because he wrote PMK's Anthropology
Primer (or whatever it's called) wherein he gives
the perfect foil debunking the caucasoid myth.

I could care less that you're Filipino as far as
this forum goes. However I don't believe a non
African like Paul should be 'lord' over an African
list.

And I meant the quality of the hair. The Zenaga,
from as much as I can tell from the photo, seem
to have the exact same hair quality as Seti I
TMHHW. Varying and at once wavy thick and nappy.

Sorry to git you barkin' but you know you my dawg.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Whoa. Hold it right there. Don't put words in my mouth.

Did I do something I'm unaware of?

Where did I explain one by way of the other?
What did I actually write about the two groups?

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
but when you get to Mauretania and the basis of such traditions there, you would be missing the point to immediately jump at the Tamehu to explain such common traits,

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
... the populations that entered Mauretania more likely came from the Sahara and Eastern Africa than the extreme north of the continent.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
[

---

These Mauretanians at Tichitt and other settlements are believed to have been Mande speakers, not Berber speakers.


. Could you give me a quote for this with a reference? Augustin Holl . 1985. "Subsistence Patterns of the Dhar Tichitt Neolithic, Mauritania," [italics] The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 3:151-162 and --- 2002. "Time, Space, and Image Making:Rock Art from the Dhar Tichitt (Mauritania)," [italics]The African Archaeological Review[/italics] 19(2): 75-118. does not name any group as the settlers of Dhar Tichitt. He says that the Berbers came after these settlements were abandoned.
Thanks

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You can go and read some of the research of P.J. Munson, one of the original excavators at Tichitt. Munson (1980) based his conclusion that the Soninke founded Tichitt on the dwellings, storehouses and pottery he excavated at Tichitt which resembled Diawara or Soninke material (see: pp.462-463).

Archaeology and the Prehistoric Origins of the Ghana Empire, by Patrick J. Munson
The Journal of African History, Vol. 21, No. 4 (1980), pp. 457-466

You can obtain the article at JSTOR.

.
.

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Thanks for the reference. I did get it from JSTOR and read it. I e-mailed Augustin Holl to see if Munson was still accepted since Holl did not cite him. I got a reply today. he is in the field and apologized for not being able to provide a fuller answer but he wrote that:
"I wish I could give you a simple and straighforward answer to your query but there is none; P. Munson assessment is based on the 'accepted" wisdom that make the Dhar Tichitt the craddle of the Soninke but there are really no serious evidence to back that suggestion." and "The claim of proto-Soninke homeland is not too farfetched but the reasoning is literally circular. I am very very sorry for the shallowness of what I can say about that important question but it is better to be cautious in this case."
 

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Posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT (Member # 14023) on :
 
I don't remember where exactly were posted pictures of Tehenu before, but here is another from Malika Hachid's book "Les Premiers Berbères" (2000):


Closer look, see:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/328/tehenuhachid1ia6.jpg

I remember someone pointing out the resemblance of the symbol on the tHnw headdress with the Egyptian uraeus. Well, it seems that it was worn by tHnw noblewomen as well, but not by children.


Hachid claims the same crossed symbol found among modern Berbers (mostly among warriors) as a symbol of manhood and Ancient "Libyans" is a continuation of it, also pointing out that it was also worn until recently by some Tuareg & "Moroccan" women.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Can you give us a close up of those Tehenu?

And why is it that all the images you give us as well as other tomb scenes are all outlined illustrations? Where are the actual tomb paintings??
 

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Posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT (Member # 14023) on :
 


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Thanks Cotonou, but from what tomb is that scene from? And are there any actual photos of that tomb or other tombs depicting Tehenu? In all my years spent in this forum I still haven't seen any actual color renditions or even actual photos of tomb paintings depicting Tehenu.
 

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Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
 
Another repro, supposedly of that found in the temple of King Sahure:



Attire is consistent with that just posted above by Cotonou.
 

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Posted by Neith-Athena (Member # 10040) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

---

According to Sallust, who supports himself upon the authority of Heimpsal, the Carthaginian historian, “North Africa was first occupied by Libyans and Getulians, who were a barbarous people, a heterogeneous mass, or agglomeration of people of different races, without any form of religion or government, nourishing themselves on herbs, or devouring the raw flesh of animals killed in the chase; for first amongst these were found Blacks, probably some from the interior of Africa, and belonging to the great negro family; then whites, issue of the Semitic stock, who apparently constituted, even at that early period, the dominant race or caste. Later, but at an epoch absolutely unknown, a new horde of Asiatics,” says Sallust, “of Medes, Persians, and Armenians, invaded the countries of the Atlas, and, led on by Hercules, pushed their conquests as far as Spain.” 48

---

From: http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/r/richardson/james/morocco/chapter10.html

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Do you know where in Sallust this quote is from? I doubt that he used such terminology as "Negro" or "Semite," and that these terms have probably been added by biased modern translators.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL Neith-Athena, do you have to ask?

By the way, Cotonou can you answer my questions?
 

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Posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT (Member # 14023) on :
 
Djehuti:
The repros are from Sahure's tomb.

Never came across any painted pics of Tehenu, but here a actual pic of a Tehenu depiction:



Also, does anyone know how widespread is the use of crossed bandouliers in Africa? I'm still a bit skeptical about Hachid's claims of continuity between Tehenu and Tuareg regarding such similarities.
 

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Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
 
^Got a better closeup of the photo on that book?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Is there any continuity at all between any Berber group and the Tehenu??
 

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Posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT (Member # 14023) on :
 
Mystery Solver:
Huh...Actually Sall 1999 cites this picture as depicting "Tekhenou (Egyptian Western neighbours)" after Zyghlarz 1958 but I'm wondering if this wasn't depicting the Tekenu character which was ritually sacrificed by AE.
Anyway the quality of the picture in that book wasn't good at all.

I remember a pic from Sahure's tomb from Bates 1914, but it was not in color.

Does anyone actually have seen exact references of colored pics of Tehenu or scholarly descriptions of Tehenu being depicted in colors?

Thanks in advance.

Djehuti:
One of the most striking similarity Hachid claim as a proof of cultural continuity between Berbers and THnw is the crossed bandouliers war symbol mostly worn by Tuareg. What do you think about it?
 

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Posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT (Member # 14023) on :
 
^^Don't seem that specific to me as show most precolonial Fon (modern Benin) wall hangings depicting war scenes:






 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

Mystery Solver:
Huh...Actually Sall 1999 cites this picture as depicting "Tekhenou (Egyptian Western neighbours)" after Zyghlarz 1958 but I'm wondering if this wasn't depicting the Tekenu character which was ritually sacrificed by AE.
Anyway the quality of the picture in that book wasn't good at all.

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quote:

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I remember a pic from Sahure's tomb from Bates 1914, but it was not in color.

Does anyone actually have seen exact references of colored pics of Tehenu or scholarly descriptions of Tehenu being depicted in colors?

Thanks in advance.

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quote:

---

Djehuti:
One of the most striking similarity Hachid claim as a proof of cultural continuity between Berbers and THnw is the crossed bandouliers war symbol mostly worn by Tuareg. What do you think about it?

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Do be honest I don't know. It could be evidence of shared if not direct ancestry from Tehenu. I just don't know much about Berber culture to make any conclusions.

Here are pictutres of a Mauritanian man (I assume to be Berber) that Doug found which bears a striking reslemblance not only to Tehenu but even 'white' Tamahou in hairstyle.


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
By the way, can anyone tell me who the prisoners below are identified as, if they were not all Libyans?


 

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Posted by Whatbox (Member # 10819) on :
 
What about the Siwa Berbers?

dazzling, sparkling, to dye something blue .. wouldn't have possibly referred to their ancestors?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I don't know. The It's only pure speculation that the reference is to 'Tuareg' or proto-tuareg people.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
"WoW" that's uncanny looks like a scene out of the nile valley,The quilt/patchwork Fon battle scene.
 

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Posted by The Gaul (Member # 16198) on :
 
UP.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by COTONOU_BY_NIGHT:

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^ The crossbandaliers worn by the Tehenu remind me of descriptions by early Greeks of the Gorgon Amazons of Libya who were said to be the first Amazons. They were described as black women who wore short leather skirts and bands of large snake skin that criss-crossed their breasts.
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Doesn't the inscription above the center figure read PWn.y:nwt(+w+t)?
 

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Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
 
Oops, my bad. That's WN(+n).y.
 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
^I don't see a glyph for "P" in the script in question. From what I can see, it reads something along the lines of WsA(a)wn(n)i.n(wt)+tfs [the "( )" bracket enclosures here denote signs which were seemingly put in place as complementary phonograms to assist in determining the phonological nature or pronounciation of the "fore-word" or else determinative].

Btw, "nwt" is a determinative represented by the circle-looking sign, which would have otherwise faded beyond immediate recognition, had it not been for the supporting roles of the glyphs that follow it. The hieroglyphic signs for "wt" seem to be filling in the role of providing the reader with a clue about the phonological character of that circle-looking determinative that it succeeds.
 

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Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
http://www.temehu.com/Temehu.htm

The Temehu Tribes of Ancient Libya


Scene from the tomb of Seti I, Dynasty XIX.

Author: Nesmenser
Publisher: http://www.temehu.com

The following notes, prepared by www.temehu.com, may serve as a short introduction to the Libyan Berber Temehu tribes. For further information about the ancient Libyan Temehu (Temeh'w) and Tehenu people the reader can refer to the rare work of Oric Bates (The Eastern Libyans, London, 1914). The Ancient Egyptians called the land and the people west of the Nile Valley the Tehenu, whom appear to have been a numerous group, as attested by Egyptian references, such as "the countries of the Tehenu" and "the chiefs of the Tehenu". But since the Temehu were also referred to as "the Westerners", those who inhabited the area immediately west of the Nile, it becomes difficult to separate between the two Berber groups. Hence, according to Oric Bates, the ancient Egyptians often did not always discriminate between the Temehu (Tmh') and the Tehenu (Th'n).

Those writers who claimed that the Temehu tribes were comprised of two groups: the Tehenu in the north and the Nehesu in the south, were often confused and definitely misinformed, since according to the Egyptians themselves the Nehesu are a distinctive group, and in all probability what they meant to say was that the Libyans comprised two groups: the Tehenu in the north and the Temehu tribes in the south, and thus the Tehenu were rightly identified with Lower Egypt, and the Temehu with Middle-Nubia. This makes sound sense when one refers to the ancient Egyptian's classification of humankind:

The Egyptians divided the human race into four classes, namely the Egyptians, the A’mu (Semites), the Neh’esu (Nubians) and the Temeh’u (Temehu) in the country Tmh’ (Libyans). The Neh'esu refers to all Africans bordering Egypt from the south, like the Ethiopians; the Temehu covers all Africans bordering Egypt from the west; and the A'mu are obviously the Semites bordering Egypt from the east (of the Middle East), like the Akkadians and the Phoenicians, whom originally were also Saharan groups, split from the Afro-Asiatic family around the 5th millennium BC. Of course, modern genetic, anthropological and linguistic evidence conclusively relates both the Egyptians and the Libyans (and all the ancient Mediterranean peoples) to the Sahara and therefore this kind of genealogy is politically motivated and serves no purpose to our present enquiry, except in that it clearly shows the Nehesu as a separate group from the Temehu, and that the Temehu designates the whole of the Libyan peoples west of the Nile - that is all the Berbers or Imazighen including the Tehenu, the Ribu, the Nasamons, the Garamantes, etc, all of whom the Egyptians were aware of as Berber groups and collectively mentioned as Temehu. This is also apparent from the extent of the Temehu's territories, which, according to Bates, appears to have been comprised of various communities and tribes, occupying much of the Sudan and possibly all the way to Fezzan; and hence several scholars, starting from Oric Bates, have openly discussed the possibility of the Temehu being the distant ancestors of the present day Tuareg tribes of the great Sahara Desert (The Speakers of Tamaheqt), which now became Temezeght via *Temehaght > Temejeght > Temesheght > Temezeght > Tamazight (the language of the entire Berber population of North Africa currently spanning across 10 countries, from the Red Sea to the Atlantic Ocean and from the Mediterranean Sea to Lake Chad).

Few years after the publication of Bates' unique book, The Times (20 March 1928) published a study drawing similarities between the Temehu and the images of prehistoric drawings found in the Air Mountain in the southern Sahara desert. This begs a simple question no one dared to ask, let alone answer: if the Temehu were recent sea-people invaders of Egypt (or of Libya, as it was known then), then how come the ancient Egyptians considered them the natives of both Egypt and Libya and why did they include them in their genealogy of humankind long before the arrival of the sea-people?

Surely the Egyptians knew enough about their neighbours not to confuse natives with foreign pirates as to include the latter in their classification of the human race! Like I have said, the Egyptian classification of the human race, and in that respect its later Biblical copy, serves no scientific purpose other than show the Temehu as a massive group inhabiting the whole of Libya (that is the whole of Africa west of Egypt), and thus this by itself is more than enough to put all other theories concerning the Temehu tribes out of their miseries. In speaking of the Biblical genealogy, the Biblical HAM (the African divinely-cursed son of Noah - see Genesis for more on this), appears to be no more than a metatheses of the older TMH. The point I am trying to illustrate here is that both the Egyptians and their later students must have based their written traditions on earlier and much older oral lore and as such the original classification myth must have been much older than the written version of the later pharaohs. This also means that " Internet chat experts " , who confuse the recent sea-people with the Libyan Tehenu and Temehu and subsequently made the Temehu a foreign blond group, are not only inaccurate crackpots but also committing a grave mistake, simply because we have plenty of evidence, most of which is prehistoric, to the fact that these Berber groups were natives to the area since pre-dynastic times. And to ignore this monumental evidence, or, like others had pointed out, to make it intentionally obscure, serves no purpose other than illustrate Amen-like motives!




The land of the Temehu tribe in ancient Libya extends all the way to the Nile. According to Herodotus Libya began west of the Nile.




The Delta was called Tameh'et, one interpretation of which is 'the lotus land', just as pictured by its hieroglyph of three lotus flowers rising from a circle (the sign for 'city'). In connection with Meh', a mention must be made of the Seven Wise Ones of the goddess Meh'-urt , who came from water at the feet of Nu or Nun, and who, in very early times, resided over the “weighing of words” in the Hall of Meh'-urt and thus rightly identified with Libyan Maat and Neith. This simple fact was known to many scholars and Egyptologists, like Sir Alan Gardiner who has noted that the name of the Libyan tribe Temeh'w means “Lower Egypt” as well as the “Delta”, whence mh's “the crown of Lower Egypt”. The ancient Egyptian Timhy (Tymhy) Stone of Wawat, found in one of the Egyptian lists of royal gifts, may indicate that the stones were of a particular type purveyed to the Egyptian by the Temehu. G. W. Murray (The Road to Chephren's Quarries) relates that the Temehu Libyans were employed in the labour gangs at the quarries; while other sources affirmed that the Temehu were famous for being skilled stone workers and that the monuments built of polygonal masonry in Cyrenaica were the work of the Temehu people whom often referred to as “the Westerners” ('those who dwell west of the Nile'). The name was also mentioned as Henet-Temehu , the princess daughter of Thenet-Hep , the wife of Ahmose I, which further illustrates the Libyan element in the Egyptian dynasties.

The Libyan struggle to free the taken land of Neith is pre-dynastic in nature, and their recent pact with the maritime bandits, who came to plunder Egypt as others had done before and after, was no more than another tactic in their long war against the armies of the conquering pharaohs. There was never such a thing as Libyan Invasion (or invasions); they only appear so if they were mentioned in isolation, by the enemy, of course. To be fairer to the truth, from the extant preserved material one can safely ascertain the pharaohs to have been the invaders of the region, who, as told by their own history, forcibly unified Libyan Lower Egypt and Nubian Upper Egypt into what is known as Egypt: the House of Libyan Ptah. This was the subject of several studies including the one presented at The Symposium On "Libya Antiqua" , held in Paris between the 16th and the 18th of January 1984, and titled: "The Tehenu In The Egyptian Records" . The paper, written by A.H.S. El-Mosallamy and prepared at the request of the Unesco, told us nothing we do not already know, but nonetheless it was a recent summary of the basic facts put forward in the last century by Petrie, Breasted, Bates, Galassi, Maspero, Borchardt and many others whom history had practically forgotten, and was largely drawn from the ancient records preserved by Eratosthenes, Manetho, Plutarch, Plato, Herodotus, Diodorus and the ancient Egyptian records, as those of the pyramid papyri of Berber Unas (or Unis: the god who swallowed all the gods).

The pre-dynastic existence of the Temehu and the Tehenu is ascertained from several facts, the most important of which is the Palermo Stone, the oldest document in the world, which preserves a long list of pre-Dynastic Libyan kings & queens of Lower Egypt before its invasion by the pharaohs. The Delta city of Sais was the centre of the worship of the Libyan Goddess Neith and most scholars generally agree that the inhabitants of Sais were mostly of Libyan Berber origin. Other Libyan Delta cults included those of the Libyan Cat-Goddess Bast at Bubastis, and Osiris & Isis at Buziris, who went on to dominate the Egyptian and Roman pantheons, and even survive to the present day in Europe as the secret cults of Isis & Osiris. It is therefore generally concluded that the Berber Tehenu tribes were the natives of the Egyptian Delta long before the menace of Menes, who forcibly unified Egypt and invaded the Tehenu territories in the north and the Temehu's and Nubian's in the south about 3100 BC (or 3400 BC according to other sources).





Then we have the Egyptian pre-dynastic records such as the inscriptions found in Neith's temples, showing the usual Libyan signs and Neith's tattoos as well as the names of queens and princesses, which usually contained the element Net or Nit; Narmer's ivory cylinder commemorating his so called victory over the Libyans; the pre-dynastic Kerki knife bearing similar representations of pre-dynastic Libyans as those of the later Egyptians; and, of course, the name " Tehenu " itself, found on King Scorpion's statue (ca. 3300 BC), from which respected Egyptologists convincingly deduced that the struggle between the ancient Libyans and the Egyptians goes back to pre-dynastic times, as pointed out by both Breasted (1906) and Bates (1914), and also to the beginning of the Northern Kingdom of the Delta when the invading pharaohs were forcibly trying to unify the two kingdoms: the northern Libyan Lower Egypt and the southern Nubian Upper Egypt. This means that if the wars of the Tehenu-Temehu and the Egyptians were pre-dynastic, then the existence of the Tehenu and the Temehu people in Egypt surely goes even farther back in time.

This conclusion is also supported, in addition to the above Egyptian genealogy which classifies all Libyans as Temehu or Temehw (e.g., modern Temaheq or Tuareg), by the fact that several scholars generally agree that the Egyptians always referred to the Tehenu and the Temehu with titles indicating their nativity to the region and not as foreigners; and by the fact that the Egyptians were indeed very careful not adopt any foreign gods and as such their adoption of the Libyan Neith, Amon, Bast, Sekhmet, Set and many others is a strong indicator that they did not consider the Libyans as " foreigners " . The established Libyan royal line of kings and queens in the Delta during and after the invasions of Menes, and the disputed royal lines of the Palermo Stone, are also a good example of this. Of course, there is one thing almost everyone fails to mention, and that is there is hardly any serious studies exploring Libyan history and as such Libyan history remains to be written. If the amount of work and volumes produced in relation to Egypt or Greece were also produced in relation to Libya, a totally new world would emerge from the bottom of the Libyan desert.

Hence Neith's Temple in the Delta (at Sais) bore the name of "House of the king of Lower Egypt", and the Egyptian "uraeus" serpent was deduced, from a scene of four Libyans in Sahure's temple at Abusir, to have been descended from an early Libyan king of the Delta. In addition to the Delta, the Tehenu of Lower Egypt were also the inhabitant of the Fayyum and the other oases of the region. In fact, these Berber oases were not invaded by the pharoahs until the time of the New Empire, and were not totally colonised by the pharaohs until the time of Ramses III, aginst whom the Libyans became known for their attacks on Egypt. Breasted asserts that these oases dwellers, from which the Egyptians of Hatshepsut extracted much tribute, were none other than the Libyan Tehenu of the Delta. The Temehu's territories, however, began immediately south of the Tehenu's and extended all the way down to Middle Nubia - an area where Oric Bates, during his short life, conducted an extensive study of its cemeteries and came to conclude that the Nubians and the Libyans were more related than previously thought, and thus the Temehu Berbers were also known to archaeologists as " the C-Group of Nubia " . Even today, the Arabs of modern Egypt call the Nubians " Barabera " .





From the first dynasty onwards the Libyans continued their attempts to reclaim Lower Egypt. During the start of the dynastic period the name Tehenu was found inscribed on the Narmar (or Narmer) Plate and also reappeared during the second and the third dynasties (2778- 2723 BC), when, according to Manetho, the Libyans continued the struggle against the invading pharaohs and particularly against the pharaoh Nefer-Ka-Re. Then during the fourth dynasty the pharaoh Snefru reportedly took 11,000 Libyans as prisoners of war. All these facts are not a figment of the imagination but an important part of human's early history, which has been largely ignored and even suppressed. In fact the wars were so rife during this early period that they were brought to a temporary lull during the Old Kingdom by king Khufu (Greek Cheops), the second king of the 4th Dynasty (ca. 2613-2494 BC) and the builder of the great pyramid of Giza. Apparently king Khufu married a Libyan princess in order to bring peace to the region so that he could concentrate on his monumental work.

"Bringing peace to the region", "during the building of the great pyramid of Giza", "so that he can concentrate on his work" is not a sign of 'menace', but a powerful indicator of the long conflict between the Libyans and Egyptians right from the start, and long before the recent Shishenq and Tefnakht returned to continue the work of the ancestors!

Khufu's attempts, however, were not fully successful, as we are told that both the kings Sahu-Ra and Ni-User-Ra (of the fifth dynasty) continued to brag about defeating the Libyan armies and about the bounty they brought as offerings to their divine fathers. This means that the wars were almost continuous from pre-dynastic times right down to the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2200-1700 BC), during which the Egyptian pharaohs managed to regain the upper hand and extracted tribute from the Libyans; and as a result a large number of Berbers served in the army of the pharaohs, and some even rose to high positions in the palace; probably, eventually leading the Libyans to regain control over Egypt about (ca. 945 BC), when the Libyan Berber king Shishenq succeeded in establishing the 22nd Dynasty and thereby starting what narrow-minded Egyptologists know as "The Libyan Period" . The ancient Temehu tribes were among the allied tribes of the powerful Berber Meshwash (Meshwesh), the subjects of Shishenq, who ransacked Jerusalem during his reign as king of Egypt. The fact that the allied tribes included several Berber groups, like the Ribu and the Tehenu of eastern Libya, illustrates a common cause to liberate rather than invade one's land. A few dynasties later, Berber Tefnakht , the chieftain of Neith's Sais and the king and founder of the 24th dynasty (722 - 715 BC), attempted to gain control over the whole of Egypt; but after acquiring Memphis and proceeding southward to Heracleopolis, he was met by the Cushite Piankhi and eventually lost in 713–712 BC to Shabaka, the founder of the Nubian 25th dynasty.

And then, there is another interesting point rarely mentioned but by a few respected scholars: the pharaohs were in the habit of chiseling out most of the references they did not wish to survive and thus censorship is not that new. They were also in the habit of inscribing only their victories and rarely had the courage to catalogue their defeats and therefore all the references to the Libyans were closely tied to the word: "defeat". Expectedly, there was no mention of Libyan victory (or victories). For instance we have evidence showing the blunt removal of the name of the Libyan God Amen from several stone engravings after the Akhnaten revolution, during which Amen was replaced by Aten. To refer to this rich period of Berber history as "the Libyan invasion" does not necessarily represent the truth, and it is strongly advised that students of Libya should always refrain from depending on established sources alone. [A good example of this is the Palermo Stone saga!]





As one is often forced by historians to talk of 'colour' and 'race' when the whole of humankind is found to be of one type, genetically sharing 99.8% of its DNA material with chimpanzees and 58% with bananas, one can only say that (some of) the Temehu people were said to be 'fair skinned' and 'blue eyed'. They wore single hair locks on each side of the head and pointed beards, and had a headdress of two ostrich plumes as those of the Libyan Goddess Ament . One feather symbolises 'chieftain status', while two feathers are generally worn by everyone else. The Temehu, like the Tehenu, adored the Goddess Neith in tattoos. The Temehu name, as mentioned above, can also serve as a generic name describing several African groups and tribes and according to some sources is even tantamount to 'Tamazight' as in the form Tamaheqt (the Berber Tuareg word for Tamazight); making the various theories put forward attributing their origin to northern Europe and Asia look like those " Aryan " theories relating the ancient Egyptians to Sumeria or Mars! The long robe, fastened at the shoulders with golden clasps, and bordered with coloured lines, was a mark of dignity and rank, and therefore was more common than the kilt (skirt, kirtle). Over this garment the Temehu occasionally wore a cloak, under which they wore either a tunic, girded at the waist and stretched almost to the knee, or nothing except a belt. The cut of these robes, which sometimes were fringed, was derived from the skin-cloaks worn in classical times. They were regularly open from top to bottom, and sometimes ornamented with coloured designs and decorated with pieces sewn in the corners or at the waist. In late times, the tunic became more popular among the more civilized Libyans.






One of the most important temples illustrating the description of the Tehenu people is the temple of the King Sahu-Ra (of the fifth dynasty). The Tehenu were portrayed as tall people, dark skinned (or bronze-skinned), with long black hair, short pointed beards, slender faces and thick lips; features which closely relates them to their relatives from East Africa, such as the Ethiopians, whose languages both were of the same group and both were of East African origin: the Hamito-Semitic family which is now known as Afro-Asiatic. Unlike the Temehu and other Libyan groups, the Tehenu wore no feathers on their hair. Their dress consisted mainly of two leather strips worn across the chest and held with a belt along the waist, which terminated in a penistache. They also wore animal tails as a sign of royalty. In historic times, only Berber children wore side-locks; with grown-up men, it indicated either royalty, or the exercise of high priestly functions, rightly identified with the rites of the Libyan Goddess Neith. The long, lock-like beard, is very similar to the beard of Osiris, which the pharaohs also adopted as a sign of royalty. The Libyan pointed-beard and the side-lock may shed more light on the origin of the present-day Jewish side-lock, which they could have picked up in Egypt among Other things!

The Temehu kept small live stock, were skilled workers, and highly religious (or mythical) people. The main principal deities of the Temehu people were the Great Goddess Neith, and the Libyan God Amon or Amen. These two deities were later adopted by other cultures, like the Greek’s Zeus (Amon) and Athena (Neith) (see Plutarch, Pluto, Diodorus, Herodotus, etc.) The cemeteries discovered between the First and Second Cataracts (and dated to the Sixth Dynasty) were identified with the Libyan Temehu. The cemeteries show a distinctive Libyan culture, comprising tombs with circular stone walls, burials in contracted positions, and body tattooing, most of which, according to Egyptian inscriptions, is identified with the par excellent Libyan Triple Goddess Neith . www.temehu.com. Author: Nesmenser © 2008. Updated on 15 January 2009 by temehu.com.

Brief History of The Temehu Tribes of Ancient Libya is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Non-Commercial-No Derivative Works 2.0 UK: England & Wales License . (Note: please do not remove this licence if you intend to redistribute this article. Doing so violates the terms of this agreement.)
 

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Posted by Red, White, and Blue + Christian (Member # 10893) on :
 
http://www.temehu.com/wan-muhuggiag.htm

Wan Muhuggiag





The Wan Muhuggiag Mummy, on display at the Assaraya.





Discovery:
The Tashwinat Mummy is a small mummy of a child, discovered in a small cave in Wan Muhuggiag, in the Acacus massif (Tadrart Acacus), Fezzan, Libya, by Professor Fabrizio Mori in 1958. The mummy is currently on display at the Assaraya Alhamra Museum in Tripoli. The name Muhuggiag appears in various forms, including Wan Mughjaj, Uan Mugjaj (probably a typing error of: Muhjaj), and Uan Muhuggiag. The local pronunciation of the name gives: Muhjaij: /mouhjeej/.





The Mummy:
The cave showed signs of being occupied at different periods, and its walls were painted with images of people, animals, cattle, and scratched with graffiti. This was an opportunity probably the kind professor Mori was searching for. As the cave's floor was sandy and soft to dig, the professor could not resist the rare opportunity to be the first to excavate the cave. Not long and not far from the surface he found what appeared to be a strange bundle of some sort. Upon careful investigation it turned out to be of a mummy of a child carefully wrapped in a goatskin, with its entrails replaced by wild herbs, probably to aid preservation.

The child is thought to have been 3 years old at the time of death. Using radiocarbon 14 method, the mummy was thought to be at least 5400 years old, which makes it much older than any of the mummies found in (neighbouring) ancient Egypt. It was believed that the makers of the mummy were cattle herders, and occupied much of North Africa, at a time when the Sahara was a savannah.








The mummy in a display box at the museum.


This is the info displayed beneath the mummy in the museum (see the above photo),
stating the age of the child, the location of the discovery (Wadi Tashwinat),
the age of the mummy, and that it was wrapped in plants.







Wan Muhuggiag Periods:
The archaeological finds at the site indicate that it was occupied by humans at different times. The most recent layer contained stone tools, such as querns, and a horned cattle skull, probably as an emblem of the sun; while the oldest layer contained stone slabs, typically used during that period for proper burial (see Germa Museum for details on this).

5400 years ago
7850 years ago
7600 years ago
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
The child is thought to have been 3 years old at the time of death. Using radiocarbon 14 method, the mummy was thought to be at least 5400 years old, which makes it much older than any of the mummies found in (neighbouring) ancient Egypt. It was believed that the makers of the mummy were cattle herders, and occupied much of North Africa, at a time when the Sahara was a savannah...

And yet didn't much of the ancient Egyptians' ancestry come from these people??! I find it strange why they called Uan's mummy 'black' but not other Egyptian mummies.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

NHHSW are often painted blond and red headed. I think it was gold dust sprinkled in their hair or maybe the effects of sun bleaching, not to rule out naturally red headed folk...

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