quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri on 03 December 2004 01:19 PM:
The North Africans known to the AE's were the:
* Tehhenu (west of the delta and in Fayum)
* Temehhu (west of Egypt below 25° north lattitude down to Nubia)
* Rebu (west of the Tehhenu).
More specifically the other AE known Libyans are the
* Meshwesh
* Esbet
* Beken
* Kehek
* Hes
* Imukehek
* Shai
* Seped
* Ekbet
* Keykesh
all tribals.
When, where, and under what circumstances do each of these ethnics enter the historical scene?
THHNW show up as early as the Vth Dynasty on the reliefs of Neuserre and Sahure
who defeated them. In the VIth Dynasty Harkhuf a royal merchant for Pepy II notes
a potential war between the NHHSW of Yam and the TMHHW. Mentuhotep of Dynasty XI
mentions defeating the Rebu/Libu.
By the XVIII Dynasty we hear of the Imukehek and Ekbet in the times of Amenhotep I
and Thutmose I. Then the XIXth and XXth Dynasties.
Ramses II found the THHNW in alliance with the Sherden one the HWA NBW peoples from
outside of Africa. But how did this alliance form and why were North Africans and
north Mediterraneans in relationship?
West of the THHNW the Libu formed a powerful coalition with the Ekwesh, Teresh,
Luka, Sherden, and Shekelesh, who all are peoples from north of the Mediterranean
coast of Africa. This horde forced the THHNW to join them as they stood between
Libu and Egypt the target of their plan of conquest. Why did they choose to march
east on Egypt instead of going west toward the Maghreb if the HWA NBW were only
ejected migrants seeking asylum? This invasion force also sought out the goodwill
of the Hittites. Merneptah proved to be up to the challenge and utterly routed the
entire force.
Then not long afterward the Meshwesh from even further west than the Libu in cahoots
with another set of northerners Thekel, Peleset, Denyen, Weshesh and the older set
of northern allies encroached on Egyptian territories. The North African Seped or
Esbet join in the coalition. Ramses III put them down, branding and enslaving many
to incorporate them into the military or into agricultural service.
It should be noted that the northerners came with their women and children. Outside
of the war effort, how many northern peoples in search of a new home avoided Libu and
Meshwesh intrigues to instead peacefully settle westward of the aggression? Did such
settlement cause southern and eastern movement of the earlier population?
Not having learned their lesson well, more North Africans, the Esbet, Shai or Shaitep,
Beken, Keykesh, and Hes, along with the Meshwesh mount another attack to occupy Egypt
which again fails and leads to their occupying military and agricultural posts after
being branded.
With the Meshwesh we have the first naming apparently linguisticly related to
Tamazight and the Amazigh identity. Amazigh identity seems to begin with these
Meshwesh and not the THHNW.
Is there any ethnic or linguistic significance to all these esh name endings
shared by both the North Africans and north Mediterraneans?
As the Meshwesh piece by piece begin to peacefully settle in the Delta during the
weak XXIst Dynasty they attain to authoritative positions until finally a Meshwesh
assumes pharoahship inaugurating the XXIInd Dynasty. The beginning of the reign of
Shosenq I is the year 1 in the Amazigh calendar commemorated yearly by Imazighen
activists at Yenneyar celebrations everywhere theres an Amazigh community.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally on 04 December 2004 01:29 PM:
According to the ancients, the portion of Africa to the west of Egypt was called Libya but
according to the Moudu ro en Kemet, the region to the west of Kemet would be called
Khasut Amenti ("foreign territories in the west"), and like "Nubia" to the south, it was
only referred to vis-a-vis the tribes or peoples in that region. Here is the chronology of
Kemetian names for what the ancients referred to as "Libya" :
1) predynastic;early dynastic period (2920-2575bc);also in the Book of the Dead, one of the
oldest Kemetian texts.
Tehenu: ("The 'blue' people")
These people were portrayed by the Kemetian as being very similar to themselves, and probably
were closely related.
Tehen: dazzling;sparkling; to dye something blue; faience or a glazed blue earthenware that was
often used for amulets and some vessels.
In my opinion, these were the ancestors of the present day Taureg people, who even today some of
them are referred to as the blue people because some wear fabrics dyed by a process which
involves pounding indigo powder into the cloth with a stone. So, if you were to use the Kemetian
language to describe these Taureg people you would call them Tehenu...
2) 12th Dynasty onwards...
While the Tehenu were still present and also used, we had an addition:
Tamhu: "The Red people"
This was an ethnic term based upon Kemetian ethnographic classifications (IE, *"the mural of the
races") to indicate a white race of people. These were the blue-eyed 'Berbers' and were to become
the favorites of modern Egyptology, as their presence allowed the creation of an erroneous
association with the civilization of Kemet, even though their existence was only acknowledge during
the 12th Kemetian dynasty...
3) 20th Dynasty
M'shawaasha: (?; "meshwesh") This was a Libyan people who appear to be self-named, as there doesn't appear
to be a Kemetian correspondence (at least I couldn't find any). We do have the name of one of their
kings; M'shaken.
4) Indeterminate
Rebu/Lebu:
I couldn't find any direct correspondence with "Reb" or "Leb" but we can perhaps find help
from Diop on this one; Diop informs us that there are a people living in Senegal called the
Lebou and whose name means "fishermen or people who live by the sea." So what do we have in
Kemetian?
"r" or "l" is a preposition meaning for example - to;against;at
"bo" in Kemetian and in Coptic means "canal" or "stream"
"l_bo" means "at the stream"
"l_bou" means "those at the stream"
Thus it is accurate to state that Lebou in the Kemetian language would mean and be consistent
with "people who live by the sea." Would the Lebu then be tribes living along the coast of
northern Africa? I think so...
TBC...
(* it is incorrect to refer to this ethnographic document as a "table of nations" for no other
reason but the simple and obvious fact that there were a lot more than four nations in that day!)
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri on 05 December 2004 04:39 PM:
In another thread Wally gives the alternate meaning of HHN in the name of the THHNW
as brilliant. This is just as valid if not more valid than the meaning olive. As far
as it relates to blue and the Blue Men of more than 2500 years later, that remains a
worthy speculation. Contrary to genetic indicators the Tuareg themselves claim to come
from the far Atlantic Maghreb in an exodus under Queen Tin Hanan.
Wally has shown that some of the mdw ntr names of Eastern Libyan tribes are not from
the Egyptian language and so are probably derived from Tamazight linguistic roots. This
again brings up the question of the coastals relationship to their HWA NBW allies some of
whom also have esh in the endings of their tribal names.
Eastern Libyans with esh names:
* the Meshwesh nation
* the Keykesh tribe
Sea Peoples with esh names:
* Ekwesh
* Teresh
* Shekelesh
* Weshesh
Of particular notice are the Meshwesh nation and Weshesh HWA NBW tribe especially
when we will later note Graeco Roman authors relating origins of some Eastern Libyan
tribes as coming from the Aegean and the northern Middle East.
quote:
Originally posted by Numidicus:
I'm an Amazigh. I send you some useful links (I didn't read all of them):
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/keita_1990_northern_africa_1_.pdf
http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/further_study_keita.pdf
http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlubell/Ency_Maghreb.pdf
http://www.amazighworld.org/
http://www.emazighen.com/article.php3?id_article=68
http://www.csupomona.edu/~mibrahim/hst.329/NA.antiquity.html
http://www.startkabel.nl/k/numidia/
If you have no time to read them, I think this is the conclusion: the origin of the Berbers is unclear, the western Berbers were light skinned, whereas the eastern Berbers tended to be dark skinned.
They have more than one ancestor.
The early Berbers were known as the Libyans to the Egyptians and the Greeks. The Romans tended to call them Numidians and Moors. The Arabs called them "Barbars" (where the word Berber is derived form (the Arabs maybe adapted it from the Romans who called several peoples as barbarians)).
The light Berbers and the dark Berbers seem to be indigenous to North Africa: the light Berbers are registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Libou (where the word Libyan is derived form) + tamahou). They are also found in the central Sahara (depictions on the rocks).
The dark people are also registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Tehenu), and from what I read they are indications that the Garamantes where dark.
The modern Berbers are generally browns. The blondish Berbers are found in several Berber groups especially among the Riffians and Kabyles (there are also many red haired and blondish Berbers among the Berbers of the atlas).
Gnawa and Haratins are not of Berber origin, as far as I’m aware.
quote:
Originally posted by SidiRom:
A post from another forum:
quote:
Originally posted by Numidicus:
I'm an Amazigh.
. . . .
I think this is the conclusion: the origin of the Berbers is unclear, the western Berbers were light skinned, whereas the eastern Berbers tended to be dark skinned.
They have more than one ancestor.
...
The light Berbers and the dark Berbers seem to be indigenous to North Africa: the light Berbers are registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Libou (where the word Libyan is derived form) + tamahou). They are also found in the central Sahara (depictions on the rocks).
The dark people are also registered in the ancient Egyptian inscriptions (Tehenu), and from what I read they are indications that the Garamantes where dark.
The modern Berbers are generally browns. The blondish Berbers are found in several Berber groups especially among the Riffians and Kabyles (there are also many red haired and blondish Berbers among the Berbers of the atlas).
Gnawa and Haratins are not of Berber origin, as far as I’m aware.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa
from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
quote:This was a precision to something the Amazigh activist had earlier wrote on a guarded forum:
The matter of the Harratin has always been subject to
controversy. While they were seen for a long time as
late comers to the area, some of the most recent
findings are suggesting the opposite. The "Blackness"
of the Haratin has never been in contention. Even in
early history of Morocco, the fact that a deputy of
the Egyptian General began to enlist them as soldiers
of an all Black Army created a huge debate among the
Moroccans, who did not consider them of the same
"social category" as the Sudanese, and protest arose
because they were "free human beings" and not of the
"slave" category susceptible to be rounded up for this
Corps of Black slave-soldiers. It created a great stir
among "Berbers."
quote:And this is basically true. The Haratine are a social group of freed slaves. Since those slaves
Imazighen (Berbers) ... are related by language to the
Tuaregs of the Sahara and sub-Sahara [.] Even the Black
Harratine people of the northern Sahara have recently
yielded DNA which makes them closer to Berbers of North
Africa than to other neighboouring Black groups. This
parentage is also verifiable through language.
quote:So you see there is a subconscious hesitancy to unequivocally classify Haritin as truly Amazigh
I have asked before what ever happened to the black
population of the area. In the literature, they are
said to have been pushed south, but I maintain that
inter-marriage or inter-breeding did occur. Now if
DNA studies show that the black and white population
in the north are related, I don't see why this is a
problem. ...DNA studies are the most scientific proof
we have, if it was conducted in an objective fashion.
But I would like to see if the Amazigh also showed any
non-Berber Haratine DNA.
quote:What do you know about the Semitic terms ma`arib, mushreq, and mizrahh?
A summit meeting of North African Heads of State, held in Morocco in February 1989, concluded a treaty proclaiming the Union du Maghreb arabe, comprising Algeria, Libya, Mauritania, Morocco and Tunisia.
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa
from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
You have created your own definition for a term. This is NOT the standard definition of the Maghreb.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
If true, certainly less so than making Nigeria a North African country.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
What do you know about the Semitic terms ma`arib, mushreq, and mizrahh?
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
The Maghreb has a much more specific definition that EXCLUDES the Nubian Desert.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
What do you know about the Semitic terms ma`arib, mushreq, and mizrahh?
I know little about these terms. But what relevence do these terms have to the term Maghreb?
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
What relevency? To show you don't have any idea of what maghreb means.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I don't want to see this thread sidetracked, please create a
seperate thread for debate on Nigeria as a North African country,
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
If true, certainly less so than making Nigeria into a North African country.
quote:This is unnecessary nastiness, a personal attack. Please refrain from commenting
Thought Writes:
Are you sick?
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:This is unnecessary nastiness, a personal attack. Please refrain from commenting
Thought Writes:
Are you sick?
on me and comment on the topic, thank you.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
What relevency? To show you don't have any idea of what maghreb means.
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
The POINT is there is NO evidence that the Ancient Egyptians were in contact with the people of coastal NW Africa (the Maghreb). Genetically the people of NE Africa (Chad, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, etc) have very different profiles from the people of the Maghreb (a different region).
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
The Maghreb is a geographic entity not a genetic one.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
The POINT is that KM.t was attacked by a coalition of peoples.....maybe even from as further west as Algeria.
quote:According to Herodotus (2.17, 2.32, 4.168, 4.191, 4.196) Libya began west
What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa
from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
Who are the Maghribis? Which populations have in the past on up to now
have inhabited the Maghreb?
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
According to Herodotus (2.17, 2.32, 4.168, 4.191, 4.196) Libya began west
of the Nile running on to the Atlantic Ocean.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
The Arab authors, who introduced the term Maghreb, starting with alMaqrizi
(640 CE) on up to today -- again see The Union of the Arab Maghreb -- do
the same.
Who should know better than they?
quote:
Originally posted by Thought2:
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
According to Herodotus (2.17, 2.32, 4.168, 4.191, 4.196) Libya began west
of the Nile running on to the Atlantic Ocean.
Two Points:
1) We are discussing the Maghreb, not the ancient Greek referenced region of Libya.
2) Herodotus was seperated from the so-called "Libyan Invasion" by over 1,000 years!!!!
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
I started this thread. You don't dictate the parameters. I have already spelled them out.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
What is the Maghreb? Sub-Mediterranean supra-Saharan northernmost Africa
from the Libyan desert to the Atlantic Ocean.
Who are the Maghribis? Which populations have in the past on up to now
have inhabited the Maghreb?
code:.INDUSTRY MORPHOLOGY PREDOMINANT MARKERS
mtDNA NRY
ATERIAN "Boskopoid"? *U6a* *E3b-M35*
?E3b1-M78?
MOUILLIAN "PaleaMediterranean" U6a E3b-M35
U6b *E3b1-M78*
U6c
*U6a1*
CAPSIAN/ORANIAN "AfricanMediterranean" U6a E3b-M35
"African Alpine" U6b E3b1-M78
U6c ?E3b2-M81?
U6a1
*U6b1*
NEOLITHIC SAHARAN meld of the above as above as above
Saharo-Sudanese *E3b-M81*
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Although all three were similar to east Mediterranean and east
African types of humanity, they had their own physical peculiarites
distinguishing them from north Mediterranean peoples, notably
prognathism and broad nasal apperatures. (How different were
they from the Natufians?)
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
So again, how do we tie these contributors to the N African human population in with the genetic data and linguistic info
we have today?
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Genetic conclusion are drawn from living populations.
quote:Thought Writes:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
E3b-M35 has a coalescence ranging between 46-27kya per average squared
difference. It probably originated in eastern Africa. Highest frequencies are
in the "Khoisan" and Oromo. It could be the male base of the Aterian that was later absorbed and displaced.
quote:Thought Posts:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
E3b1-M78 (33-25kya), derived from E3b-M35, also most likely arose in
eastern Africa and fits the Aterian time frame. By late expansion, it may
also signal the Mouillian which is known to be related to the Halfan
industry in the Nile Valley. It has high frequencies in Ethiopia, Sudan,
and Kenya.
E3b2-M81 (11-6kya), also an E3b-M35 derivative, likewise first appeared
in eastern Africa. It's more in line with the Capsian and Neolithic Saharan.
The first Wider Area of Northern Affinity languages was at this
particularly proto-NiloSaharan. Afrisan had begun splitting so that by the
lower limit proto-Tamazight was born. Certain languages in the Wider
Area of Southern Affinity may have started in the Sahara along with
languages not truly fitting any strict classification system. This
subclade is considered to be the Amazigh marker.
quote:Yes but my reference dealt specifically with ancient Libyans and whatever relation they had with the Berber people as whole, let alone the Maghreb.
Originally posted by Doug M:
In general, the traditions of African warrior queens is indeed quite ancient all over Africa. However, this tradition is lost to us in modern histories, especially those traditions from the more ancient periods, for various reasons. There were female warrior dieties in Egypt. There were the female hunters depicted in the rock art of the Sahara. There were the Warrior Queens of Kush, Kerma and Meroe.
quote:These are some good points and questions. What meaning did the 'esh' have in ancient Berber and in modern Berber?
Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
I remember reading somewhere that "esh" was a ethnonym plural. I think it makes sense since it is found among other people's name always have a grammatical plural marker known in Egyptian.
alTakruri, what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Don't know if they already did or not, but I think that an appropriate way to check it would be to reconstruct the early Berber roots and try to transphonologize them in regard to Egyptian restrictions.
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
quote:From my knowledge of Iberian Muslim history, it is known and reported that Christians were 'deported' to North Africa in various waves, or they voluntarily left to form new communites and as a result, they blended in with the natives (of North Africa) as it were. They were Muslims, who intermarried with various tribal groups in Spain (Celtic, Visigoths, Slavs, etc) so despite being Muslim, they also were forced to leave when different Muslim ideologies confronted them. Many were no different from Spaniards but as they had a Muslim background, they were forced back to the North Africa of their grandparents and so they would naturally gravitate to areas reminiscent of their homeland (the Atlas mountains)!
Originally posted by Djehuti:
I remember this thread, and it was a very good and interesting one.
I read that the scholar Gordon Childe proposed that these north Mediterraneans were probably peoples who adopted the Berber languages. Is this true? From archaeology and anthropology as well as genetics we have evidence that the North African neolithic spilled out into Southwest Europe (Iberia) just as it did into the Levant and Southeast Europe. And heck, we have white Berber speakers in North Africa!
Any comments to this, Takruri or anyone else?
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
There were female warrior dieties in Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
By the way, I don't know how much this helps the issue but the earliest Greek references to Libya (west of Egypt) speak of the 'Gorgon Amazons'. There are 2 main groups of Amazons in Greek legend-- the Gorgon Amazons of Libya and the Themiscyran Amazons of Asia Minor with the former being older by several millenia before the latter appeared.
...
The idea of a nation ruled by a queen corresponds to the matriarchal societies of many Berber groups, and there are rock paintings of females armed with bows and arrows.
Also, I have always wondered about the relationship between North Africans and North Mediterraneans who both had '-esh' to their names.
...
I read that the scholar Gordon Childe proposed that these north Mediterraneans were probably peoples who adopted the Berber languages. Is this true?
...
...heck, we have white Berber speakers in North Africa!
quote:
Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
alTakruri, what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
quote:I've only read Grave's work as it pertains to other Greek myths, but exactly what points did Diop make for his conclusion? Remember, Diop did not consider Berbers to be true indigenous (black) Africans even though linguistics, archaeolocy and anthropology as well as recently genetics have proven otherwise and that only the coastal Berbers of the Maghreb possess maternal European lineages.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Graves' The Greek Myths is an excellent source
for this kind of thing. Diop (can't recall which
work) posits the Amazons as 'non-african' women
-- his bias against Berbers -- who found respect
for females among Africans. He makes good points,
based on cultural analysis, for why Amazons aren't native to Africa.
quote:Is it because of the male bias lineages in the area? Remember that we have the same phenomenon in the northeast Mediterranean including the Levant and Greece. Although we have very minute evidence of maternal lineages such as N1.
Truth to tell, I wonder if the metal age Imazighen were the product of the indigenous North African males taking Sea Peoples' women and gelding or otherwise hampering Sea Peoples' men from leaving progeny?
quote:I know more about northeast Med. culture. All evidence indicates that the Mediterranean cultures during the early Bronze Age and especially during the Neolithic were probably matriarchal or matric in aspect. This is inferred from the archaeological finds, and many myths and stories of the peoples. Although there hasn't been much evidence actual female warriors in the area, it would not be much of surprise that they existed. By the way, what rock-art of these "lightest-skinned" females do you speak of? All the rock-art I've seen depicted dark-skinned aparently black women.
Don't really know enough about north and northeast Med culture but those lightest skinned Imazighen of 3000 years ago, or even in the rock art, don't display anything like what I imagine north/northeast Med culture to have been like at that time.
quote:I've seen this frescoe before and others like it; however I have alse seen frescoes, especially ones from Crete which depict females in the same dark color as the males. But could the lighter convention in females be an influence from Egypt or something? Even in later Classical Greek art, women were given a lighter complexion than men who painted as tanned.
Fig 1. Top of image: North African males in the Aegean w/t kind of females who lightened their complexions?
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Check it in Bates for the root M-Z-GH as it morphs
from Mazices to Mazigh.
I posted something on this and your latter question
but without the search function I have no hope of
finding it.
quote:
Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
alTakruri, what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Who were they?
Were any "imported?"
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
There were female warrior dieties in Egypt.
quote:http://egyptianmyths.net/elephant.htm
Satet is one and she came from the South. Many of the later dieties and triads are copies of those that originated in the South.
the Triad of Elephantine
Elephantine (Abu) was the ancient capital of the first nome of Upper Egypt. It is a small island just north of the First Cataract of the Nile.
Khnemu was a ram-headed creator-god whose cult center was at the city of Elephantine. Khnemu was said to have created all men and their kai from clay and straw. He molded their bodies on a giant potter's wheel. In the Pyramid Texts of the Old Kingdom, the pharaoh was called the "son of Khnemu." Inscriptions at Elephantine detail the visit to the shrine of Khnemu at Elephantine by Pharaoh Djoser. He was there to request the god's help in ending a seven year long famine which had plagued Egypt.
At the Great Temple of Luxor, Khnemu was shown sculpting the body and ka of the pharaoh. The queen had conceived the king following intercourse with Amon and Hathor brought the sculptures to life by giving them the ankh.
Rounding out the triad of Elephantine was Khnemu's consort, Satet and their daughter, Anqet. Satet, as the "Mistress of Elephantine", was associated with the annual flooding of the Nile. Anqet was the divine child of Satet and Khnemu and was seen as the guardian of Egypt's southern frontier and the Nile cataracts.
quote:From: http://www.philae.nu/akhet/FirstGods.html
Nit (Gr: Neith) much later a local goddess of Zau (Gr: Sais), but known as early as the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Period when her influence probably was at its height. Earliest traces are her hieroglyph (crossed arrows on a shield) on a pole in front of the reed shrines and on pottery from Dynasty I in Abydos. Nit is sometimes a goddess of war, sometimes the patroness of weawing, a mortuary goddess and in later times an androgynous Creator.
Although Nit probably originated in Libya, the earliest traces comes from Upper Egypt. Her influence seems to have been at its height in the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Period. She is not documented in writing before the last part of the Predynastic period, but there is evidence of her before that time.
Her hieroglyph; two crossed arrows on a shield, was carved on a pole in front of the primitive reed shrines and on pottery, also on funerary stelae from Early Dynastic tombs at Abedjou and Diaspolis Parva (Hut-Sekhem, 7th Nome), and on an inlaid amulet from a tomb at Naq-el-Deir, and even on the roof of boats. There is also a wooden label from Abedjou which appears to show King Aha (c. 3100 BC) visiting a shrine to Nit. These findings indicate that she was important all over Egypt already at an early stage in history. At Abedjou she was connected to the rites of renewal of the king´s power.
quote:
Originally posted by MyRedCow:
The Ancient Egyptians traded with West Africa. They were in the Tibesti region of Chad as traders!
quote:
Originally posted by Please call me MIDOGBE:
... what are people relying on to claim that Mshwsh is related to M-Z-GH (especially with -sh being a grammatical morpheme)?
Don't know if they already did or not, but I think that an appropriate way to check it would be to reconstruct the early Berber roots and try to transphonologize them in regard to Egyptian restrictions.
Do you know the various dialectal variations of "Mazigh/imazighen"?
quote:Maybe, I have to check into this a little deeper.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are you talking about the trade in amazonite carried on by Garamantes?
quote:I have only read excerpts of Diop's Cultural Unity book. While I agree with some things, I disagree with other things such as relating matriarchy solely with agriculture or patriarchy with pastoralism.
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Please reference Diop's Cultural Unity of Black Africa on Amazonism after which I will try to explain those things I wrote that it looks like I didn't have the right words to express my meaning.
quote:But the problem is the frequency of Eurasian (Western European) lineages is predominant in northwest Africa, where as you cite the Aegean region which borders northeast Africa. Unless I am missing something here.
Again, my take is that:
- the North African aboriginals of the littoral (and perhaps further inland but not as far as the Sahara) had contacts with the Aegean, Sicily, and Iberia.
- infusion of Eurasian mtDNA didn't wait until after the Islamic conquest of the Maghreb, it began in prehistoric times and records such as the frescoe are evidence it continued into protohistoric times.
- low levels of Eurasian NRY and relative lack of European material and social culture suggests Eurasian males (such as the warrior Sea Peoples) had limited opportunity for leaving progeny in North Africa where North African males dominated them.
- the increasing lightening of littoral North African complexions (and the Greco-Latin notices of scattered pallid people -- even in the north of the Sahara just as in some of the rock art --) is due to NA males marrying more with Eurasian mtDNA bearing women and the female offspring of such women by North African men.
quote:The thing is we have no evidence of an early nation in Libya, let alone an 'Amazon' one. All we have are legends and myths. Also "Amazon inclinations" depend on what one means by 'Amazon'. You seem to translate this as "man-hating" while I or most people would just equate the word to mean female warriors. The Greeks usually associated man-hating with the Themiscyran Amazons of Anatolia, while such is not usually mentioned of the Libyan Amazons.
As for Amazons being related to modern "Berbers," I first need solid evidence that there was an Amazon nation or "people" anywhere in North Africa. And yes it's well enough known that the Berber culture has a certain deference to women in honoring them
and tracing lineage through them, all of which is a far cry from any Amazon inclinations of man-hating.
quote:No. I think that's it.
Am I still missing what it is you're trying to get out of me? I somehoe fel that I am. If so, please have patience, bear with me, and try to bring it on home to me.
quote:Well duh. Did you really think whites and Arabs were there first or even indigenous to any region of the continent anyway?
Originally posted by Neith-Athena:
Were all the NATIVE North Africans Black Africans in earliest times?
quote:Best to adhere to specifics as much as possible, as done by the poster you are replying to: West Eurasian lineages are only predominant in coastal northwest Africa from the maternal side, not the paternal side; there is almost rare to none from the paternal side. I believe it is this contrast, that the poster you are replying to is relaying.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:But the problem is the frequency of Eurasian (Western European) lineages is predominant in northwest Africa, where as you cite the Aegean region which borders northeast Africa. Unless I am missing something here.
Again, my take is that:
- the North African aboriginals of the littoral (and perhaps further inland but not as far as the Sahara) had contacts with the Aegean, Sicily, and Iberia.
- infusion of Eurasian mtDNA didn't wait until after the Islamic conquest of the Maghreb, it began in prehistoric times and records such as the frescoe are evidence it continued into protohistoric times.
- low levels of Eurasian NRY and relative lack of European material and social culture suggests Eurasian males (such as the warrior Sea Peoples) had limited opportunity for leaving progeny in North Africa where North African males dominated them.
- the increasing lightening of littoral North African complexions (and the Greco-Latin notices of scattered pallid people -- even in the north of the Sahara just as in some of the rock art --) is due to NA males marrying more with Eurasian mtDNA bearing women and the female offspring of such women by North African men.
quote:Reminds me of our old friend Orionix, who claimed that paleolithic East African were "Cro-Magnon".
Originally posted by Ebony Allen:
quote:Well duh. Did you really think whites and Arabs were there first or even indigenous to any region of the continent anyway?
Originally posted by Neith-Athena:
Were all the NATIVE North Africans Black Africans in earliest times?
quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Best to adhere to specifics as much as possible, as done by the poster you are replying to: West Eurasian lineages are only predominant in coastal northwest Africa from the maternal side, not the paternal side; there is almost rare to none from the paternal side. I believe it is this contrast, that the poster you are replying to is relaying.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:But the problem is the frequency of Eurasian (Western European) lineages is predominant in northwest Africa, where as you cite the Aegean region which borders northeast Africa. Unless I am missing something here.
Again, my take is that:
- the North African aboriginals of the littoral (and perhaps further inland but not as far as the Sahara) had contacts with the Aegean, Sicily, and Iberia.
- infusion of Eurasian mtDNA didn't wait until after the Islamic conquest of the Maghreb, it began in prehistoric times and records such as the frescoe are evidence it continued into protohistoric times.
- low levels of Eurasian NRY and relative lack of European material and social culture suggests Eurasian males (such as the warrior Sea Peoples) had limited opportunity for leaving progeny in North Africa where North African males dominated them.
- the increasing lightening of littoral North African complexions (and the Greco-Latin notices of scattered pallid people -- even in the north of the Sahara just as in some of the rock art --) is due to NA males marrying more with Eurasian mtDNA bearing women and the female offspring of such women by North African men.
quote:Don't know what the paleolithic has to do with the topic.
Originally posted by Djehuti:
You spoke of West Eurasian maternal lineages which predominate in the coastal Magrheb, yet you associate this with Aeagean depictions which border on northeast Africa.
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
By the way, what evidence do we have for Paleolithic human remains in the Maghreb?