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Historical and literary accounts of spies and acts of espionage appear in some of world's earliest recorded histories. Egyptian hieroglyphs reveal the presence of court spies, as do papyri describing ancient Egypt's extensive military and slave trade operations. Early Egyptian pharos employed agents of espionage to ferret-out disloyal subject and to locate tribes that could be conquered and enslaved. From 1,000 B.C. onwards, Egyptian espionage operations focused on foreign intelligence about the political and military strength of rivals Greece and Rome.

Egyptian spies made significant contributions to espionage tradecraft. As the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece, and Rome employed literate subjects in their civil services, many spies dealt with written communications.

The use of written messages necessitated the development of codes, disguised writing, trick inks, and hidden compartments in clothing to his communications. Egyptian spies were the first to develop the extensive use of poisons, including toxins derived from plants and snakes, to carry-out assassinations or acts of sabotage.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
By the way, the ancient Egyptians did develop a martial art form which is the oldest known in recorded history!! This ancient Egyptian martial art was known as Sebekkha.

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Originally posted by Tee85:

Was that what those chicks were doin in the "The Mummy Returns". I notice they were using the "sai" which, as I recall, is a Japanese Karate weapon that came THOUSNADS of years later in Okinawa Japan.

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Originally posted by Herukhuti:

Does the Sebekkha have anything to do with the deity/god/neter, Sebek?

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Originally posted by ausar:

I am curious if you have a citation for the ancient Egyptians using the term Sebetkha for their particular martial arts.

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Most people have streotyped martial arts to the extent that people only believe that Asians have only developed combat systems. Ancient Egyptians and other Africans have their own martial art systems.

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All the represenatations we have of martial arts of tomb depictions showing either boxing,wrestling,or a form of stick fighting. Mostly likely it resembled the stick fighting of the rural Upper Egyptians and the Nilotic groups further up the Nile.

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Underpants Man, I would be cautious of internet websites without citation of either a first hand hieroglyphic source or a first hand papyri translation. I have read alot of websites making unsubstantiated claims of what exactly the ancient Egyptians had in their culture.

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Ditto to that!
 

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Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
I don't know if you saw the movie Kung Fu Hustle

The first time I saw the movie, I thought some aliens kidnapped me to another planet---there is NO comparison to what we see in the West--totally different universe.

Hollywood's survival hangs by a slim rope and we are only beginning to grasp what we will expect in the future from Middle Kingdom.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAZxrNMSE48
 

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Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
This is one of my favourite scene, Axe Gang Fight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9rIyE9V-BQ&mode=related&search=
 

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Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
This scene is very FUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNYYYYYYYYY!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVSmyqNHe14&mode=related&search=
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^And what has got to do with the topic, let alone subject of Ancient Egypt & Egyptology??...

Nothing!
 

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Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
^^
You sound like a divorced woman who desperately digs out attention.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^LOL And YOU sound like a little girl who desperately seeks attention! I suggest you run along and play.
 

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Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 
^^

Look who is talking,Hyacinth, Mrs Bucket.
 

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Posted by Underpants Man (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^LOL I think you've been watching too much 'Naruto'!

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
^^LOL I think you've been watching too much 'Naruto'!

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You can never watch too much (or read too much if you follow the manga) Naruto.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
By the way, the ancient Egyptians did develop a martial art form which is the oldest known in recorded history!! This ancient Egyptian martial art was known as Sebekkha.

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Djehuti, if you find it can you tell us precisely which encyclopedia of martial arts you found this info on?

I too have been interested in whether or not the Ancient Egyptians had a sophisticated martial arts style akin to the open-handed styles of Eastern Asia such as Karate.





These wall reliefs appear to depict some form of combat. Some of the poses resemble wrestling, kickboxing or even capoeira.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
The ancient Greeks have also developed their own martial art form calld pancratium which means 'all powers'. It was used as a sport as well as for defense and was considered the deadliest sport of the original Olympic games. I've heard the theory that pancratium may have derived from Sebekkha but this hasn't been proven. I do know that pancratium survives today and is making a comeback. (some fighting games feature characters who use pancratium and there are ultimate fighters who utilize it.)

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

You can never watch too much (or read too much if you follow the manga) Naruto.

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Djehuti, if you find it can you tell us precisely which encyclopedia of martial arts you found this info on?

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I too have been interested in whether or not the Ancient Egyptians had a sophisticated martial arts style akin to the open-handed styles of Eastern Asia such as Karate.





These wall reliefs appear to depict some form of combat. Some of the poses resemble wrestling, kickboxing or even capoeira.

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Yes, the Ancient Greeks and Romans developed a system of fighting that emphasized wrestling and and striking technqiues and developed a sport that came to be known as pankration.

The traditional wrestling that you find in high school, college and the Olympics (often called Greco-Roman wrestling) is an example of pankration but without the striking.

Pankration survived in many underground events and developed into catch-wrestling, which was sometimes displayed at circus shows and became its own show blending entertainment with wrestling skills that evolved into what we today call prowrestling (WWF/WWE, WCW, ECW, TNA etc.).

Originally the matches were more realistic but later became staged. A staged match is called a "work" while a real match is called a "shoot".

Shoot fighting became very popular in Japan, it blended catch-wrestling with Judo, Karate and other disciplines into a freestyle type of sport much like the original Ancient Greek Pankration. This sport became known as Pancrase.

Around the time that the original Ultimate Fighting Championship, on of the most notable fighters in Pancrase was Ken Shamrock a shoot fighter known for defeating his opponents via heel hook who is now considered to be a legend in the UFC.

The UFC was based on the Vale Tudo (anything goes) style tournaments popular in Brazil and orchestrated by the Gracie family to show that their martial art, Brazilian Ju-Jitsu was the greatest fighting style in the world by having martial artists of several disciplines compete to be crown UFC champion.

The UFC spawned the sport that is now known as Mixed Martial Arts with the most popular organizations being the UFC and Pride Fighting Championship (a Japanese MMA organization).

Most of the competitors are wreslters, kickboxers and grapplers and they cross train to become well rounded fighters. Pancrase was similar to mixed martial arts but the rules restricted alot of what you can do in the fight.

Example of Pancrase Fight:

Shamrock vs Hume

Examples of Mixed Martial Arts Fights

Cung Le vs. Mike Altman

Vitor Belfort VS Anthony Rea

Kevin Randleman vs. Mirko Filipovic

Chuck Liddell vs. Renato Sobral

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Wow! Your knowledge of martial arts and its history is great, and I dare say even better than mine! I've only heard of Vale Tudo in passing and only knew that it's origins were in Brazil.
 

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Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
So it's YOU I should be addressing! LOL

I have friends who own the whole 1st manga series.

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Guilty.

I've been downloading the manga and Tv series (in japanese subtitled) since before it came to America and post on a Naruto forum. I don't watch it on TV though I've maybe sen like 2 episodes.

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If I can find it again. The encycopedia was from a local public library close to my home, but I'm in school right now.

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LOL Wrestling? definitely. Kickboxing? Maybe. But 'capoeira'?! I think your imagination got a little too carried away.

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Maybe so.

I seem to recall a backflip kick in one of the paintings and wrote that sentence before finding
the images I posted from google.

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Wow! Your knowledge of martial arts and its history is great, and I dare say even better than mine!

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I've only heard of Vale Tudo in passing and only knew that it's origins were in Brazil.

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Yeah, one of the reasons why Brazilians are overrepresented in the major MMA organizations is because they have a rich history in no holds barred competition.

The most dominate fighting style to come out of Vale Tudo competitions is Brazilian Jui-Jitsu, engineered by Helio Gracie (its 90+ year old Grand master ) and his older brother Carlos. It is a grappling and submission based fighting system taught to the Gracie family by a Japanese jui-jitsu instructor their father helped get established when he moved to Brazil. They refined the traditional techniques and modified it for more complex submissions making their own style out of the tradional Jui-Jitsu.

Documentary on BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU

When the UFC was first erected and a representative from the Gracie family (the now legendary Royce Racie) won the tournament their style quickly became established as the best style in the world even the U.S. military recruited them to train the marines in unarmed combat.

Today in Mixed Martial Arts learning BJJ is almost a given and once you know how to defend yourself on the ground along with good striking skills you become a more complete fighter.

Beforehand Gracie competitors like Royce beat anyone who came before them, it didn't matter how big you were, how strong or how fast if Royce got you on the ground you were going to get chocked. It didn't matter what style you used, Karate, Kung Fu, Western Boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling he would make you tap out. You had to see it to believe it, a skinny brazilian guy with almost no muscle tone beating up people twice his size and barely throwing a punch in between.

But that was the old Mixed Martial Arts. What really shocked me however was this Japanese guy, named Kazushi Sakuraba who's fighting style was Professional Wrestling ( ) who actually whipped like 4 Gracies and almost any opponent who faced him. He didn't look any stronger then Royce and yet beat Royce and the elite in MMA with his unorthydox style of fighting (again...based on pro-wrestling which here in the states is viewed as being fake).

His style of pro-wrestling is based on catch-wrestling the traditional one derived from Pankration and he does fake wrestling matches as well as competes in Mixed Martial Arts.

Kazushi Sakuraba HL reel

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Originally posted by Arwa:
That was the most oddest post I read on this forum.

Honestly, how reliable are thse sources?

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LMAO

I assure you everything I said about the development of Pankration and its relevance to martial arts today is factual. Is there anything in particular you'd like a source to? I didn't provide any but I can, the videos were meant to display what I was talking about.
 

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Posted by Mansa Musa (Member # 6800) on :
 

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Originally posted by Tee85:
Cool fake fight scene from "The Mummy Returns"

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Despite its grandiose historical inaccuries (White Egyptians?! ) I did like the money movies and the Scorpion King spin off. I doubt the Egyptians used Sai (although Moustafa Gadalla claims on his page that trade existed with China) but they did use which are similar:


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

Guilty.

I've been downloading the manga and Tv series (in japanese subtitled) since before it came to America and post on a Naruto forum. I don't watch it on TV though I've maybe sen like 2 episodes.

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LOL Dude, you are sick, just like some of my friends!!

I too don't usually watch the butchered anime shown on American TV, unless it's the only version they have available at the moment.

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Sounds good, I find an encyclopedia on martial rts to be an interesting idea.

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Maybe so.

I seem to recall a backflip kick in one of the paintings and wrote that sentence before finding
the images I posted from google.

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Thanks. Did you watch any of the videos? Most of the good stuff has been taken off of youtube because of copyright infringement but I got a few that I think got my point across about the evolution of martial arts and pankration's role in it.

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Yeah, one of the reasons why Brazilians are overrepresented in the major MMA organizations is because they have a rich history in no holds barred competition.

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quote:

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The most dominate fighting style to come out of Vale Tudo competitions is Brazilian Jui-Jitsu, engineered by Helio Gracie (its 90+ year old Grand master ) and his older brother Carlos. It is a grappling and submission based fighting system taught to the Gracie family by a Japanese jui-jitsu instructor their father helped get established when he moved to Brazil. They refined the traditional techniques and modified it for more complex submissions making their own style out of the tradional Jui-Jitsu.

Documentary on BRAZILIAN JIU JITSU

When the UFC was first erected and a representative from the Gracie family (the now legendary Royce Racie) won the tournament their style quickly became established as the best style in the world even the U.S. military recruited them to train the marines in unarmed combat.

Today in Mixed Martial Arts learning BJJ is almost a given and once you know how to defend yourself on the ground along with good striking skills you become a more complete fighter.

Beforehand Gracie competitors like Royce beat anyone who came before them, it didn't matter how big you were, how strong or how fast if Royce got you on the ground you were going to get chocked. It didn't matter what style you used, Karate, Kung Fu, Western Boxing, Greco-Roman wrestling he would make you tap out. You had to see it to believe it, a skinny brazilian guy with almost no muscle tone beating up people twice his size and barely throwing a punch in between.

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Oh yes, I know about the history of Brazilian Jui-jitsu and am very aware of the Gracie family!

Speaking of which, I have relatives who trained in FMA (Filipine martial arts). I have a cousin who's practically a master of it and plan on learning some.. soon hopefully!

quote:

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But that was the old Mixed Martial Arts. What really shocked me however was this Japanese guy, named Kazushi Sakuraba who's fighting style was Professional Wrestling ( ) who actually whipped like 4 Gracies and almost any opponent who faced him. He didn't look any stronger then Royce and yet beat Royce and the elite in MMA with his unorthydox style of fighting (again...based on pro-wrestling which here in the states is viewed as being fake).

His style of pro-wrestling is based on catch-wrestling the traditional one derived from Pankration and he does fake wrestling matches as well as competes in Mixed Martial Arts.

Kazushi Sakuraba HL reel

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LOL Yeah! I've heard about that dude Sakuraba!

quote:

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I assure you everything I said about the development of Pankration and its relevance to martial arts today is factual. Is there anything in particular you'd like a source to? I didn't provide any but I can, the videos were meant to display what I was talking about.

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Originally posted by Arwa:
]That was the most oddest post I read on this forum.

Honestly, how reliable are thse sources?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

Despite its grandiose historical inaccuries (White Egyptians?! ) I did like the money movies and the Scorpion King spin off. I doubt the Egyptians used Sai (although Moustafa Gadalla claims on his page that trade existed with China) but they did use which are similar:

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quote:

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Originally posted by ausar:

I am curious if you have a citation for the ancient Egyptians using the term Sebetkha for their particular martial arts. Most people have streotyped martial arts to the extent that people only believe that Asians have only developed combat systems. Ancient Egyptians and other Africans have their own martial art systems.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tee85:
Cool fake fight scene from "The Mummy Returns"

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Despite its grandiose historical inaccuries (White Egyptians?! ) I did like the money movies and the Scorpion King spin off. I doubt the Egyptians used Sai (although Moustafa Gadalla claims on his page that trade existed with China)

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Originally posted by Underpants Man:
I think sai came from Japan, or perhaps some islands off its coast, not China.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
This weapon reminds me, did the Kemetawy use throwing knives like many other African groups??

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I doubt the Egyptians used Sai (although Moustafa Gadalla claims on his page that trade existed with China) but they did use scimitar which are similar:

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Originally posted by Supercar:

Yeap, these stereotypes must be busted. Africans may have a humble "stereotyped" image on "western" mass media, but an outsider may well be terribly surprised at defensive and offensive fighting mechanisms used by locals across the continent. In this respect, it would be a serious mistake to dismiss these folks as being docile.

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Originally posted by Mansa Musa:

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Originally posted by Arwa:
]That was the most oddest post I read on this forum.

Honestly, how reliable are thse sources?

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Wait were you talking about my post or Underpants Man's link?

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It was your post, Mensa, I was referring to.

I was just surprised to read it
 

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Posted by What Box (Member # 10819) on :
 

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Historical and literary accounts of spies and acts of espionage appear in some of world's earliest recorded histories.

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Not surprising, I'd be surprised if there weren't any in AE. In my opinion it's primal activity. I'm mean it show advanced relationships, but I think it's instict. I remember when I was young we'd play gang wars at our (the kids who lived there) appartment complex! Being sly, changing alliance, being deceitful, or cunning, was not only second nature, but a rush!

I am surprised, however to find that Djehuti and Mansa watch anime, not that there's anything wrong with anime, (I watch some myself). Now knowing this, mansa, you seem like this friend of mine who I have to show realultimatepower to.

I was completely oblivious to these, though:

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Dje:
By the way, the ancient Egyptians did develop a martial art form which is the oldest known in recorded history!! This ancient Egyptian martial art was known as Sebekkha.

Ausarasaurus rex:
Ancient Egyptians and other Africans have their own martial art systems.

SUp:
but an outsider may well be terribly surprised at defensive and offensive fighting mechanisms used by locals across the continent. In this respect, it would be a serious mistake to dismiss these folks as being docile.

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^^ Thanks for the Knowledge.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Are there any specific texts which site Egyptian assassins' use of plants and snakes?
 

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