I just witnessed(TV) the recent World Track and Field athletic event, Osaka, Japan.
I noted that sports bloggers on international sites express puzzlement as to why any country in Africa with its "vaunted poverty" can do better than supposedly healty and resource-stromg European nations.
Kenya and Ethiopia with a combined population of 110 million have outdone some 6 billion people in distance races from 800 metres to the marathon.
Also noteworthy is that the shorter distances from 100 to 400 metres were dominated by West Africa origined individuals living in the Americas.
Question: modern athletics is obviously greatly influenced by the Greek athletic traditions: marathon, discuss, javelin, etc., the question is was the Greek tradition in athletics indigneous?
Question: Apart from wrestling what athletics did the Ancient Egyptians engage in?
Question: why do countries in the vicinity of East Africa such as Egypt, Iraq, Saudi Arabia have almost zero success in modern athletics?
Question: why do Nigerians, Ghanians, Senegalese and their E3a kin in the Americans show such dominance in shorter distances while East Africans(E3b)(Kenya, Ethiopia, Uganda, Tanzania, etc.) show an equal dominance in the longer distances.
Note that in old days that the conventional European thesis was that "negroes" had limited lung capacity so they couldn't run long distances. It w as also claimed that 'negroes' lacked sufficient discipline and planning skills to run long distances successfully. It was also claimed that suucess in running long distances required "caucasoid" genes and phenotypical traits.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
Africans dominate in running events because of their genetic makeup. High percentages of fast twitch muscle tissue for the sprints ( West Africans )and high percentages of low twitch and some kinda of superior oxygen exchange system ( East/North Africans ) for the distances.
Interesting how the "Caucasoid" North Africans have the same running capabilities that the East Africans have and yet no other "Caucasoids" outside of the continent can run like the East Africans.
Supports the evidence of East African migration to the North wouldnt u say?
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
maybe (East African elongated body types)
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
But the champion runners of East Africa are generally quite dimunitive on the average--males and females.
But again why hasn't Egypt(85 million) produced no athletes of note while Morocco and Algeria are noted--like the Kenyans and Ethiopians--for their distance running skills?
Posted by Celt (Member # 13774) on :
If a large group of Chinese were placed in the middle of Africa, after a while only the fastest of that group would still be alive. They would in turn have children that would probably be faster than the previous group. A few generations of this and there would be some fast chinese running around the continent trying to keep away from the tigers. No mystery as to why Africans are faster.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
But again why hasn't Egypt(85 million) produced no athletes of note while Morocco and Algeria are noted--like the Kenyans and Ethiopians--for their distance running skills?
This may have more to do with the culture of sport in that country and nothing to do with the ability of Egyptians to run. Why are Jamaicans running so well and yet we see no other dominant carribbean athletes.....it's the emphasis placed on the event in that nation.
If a large group of Chinese were placed in the middle of Africa, after a while only the fastest of that group would still be alive.
Why would only the fast survive?
A few generations of this and there would be some fast chinese running around the continent trying to keep away from the tigers.
There are no Tigers in Africa.
East Asians lack the genentic diversity to produce a population of fast athletes comparable to West Africans.....I dont see any other population producing that without Genetic engineering......just my informed opinion based on what Tishkoff said about where the non-african world population descend from....East Africans.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin:
Question: Apart from wrestling what athletics did the Ancient Egyptians engage in?
Various sports activities as spectator events wasn't born or limited to ancient Greece.
As for the question of good long-distance runners from Morocco, Algeria, Kenya and Ethiopia, this has to do with preparations and planning done in respective countries in the said athletic areas. Some of these same list of countries, on the other hand, save for Morocco, have rarely shown up in soccer World Cup events repetitively...for intance. I highly doubt that it has anything to do with having "superior" sports genes in one type of sports or the other. **If** African states invested sufficiently in sports in general, as they should do so in other sectors of the society, Africans would *generally* be a force to be reckened with in any sporting event, rather than just be known for certain "niche" in sports.
Posted by Celt (Member # 13774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: There are no Tigers in Africa. [/QB]
Lions will do. Posted by Celt (Member # 13774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: East Asians lack the genentic diversity to produce a population of fast athletes comparable to West Africans.....I dont see any other population producing that without Genetic engineering......just my informed opinion based on what Tishkoff said about where the non-african world population descend from....East Africans. [/QB]
I don't believe genetic engineering is really necessary to produce faster atheletes. Horse racing is a good example of how selective breeding can produce superior horses.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
And may I offer a cooling down period gentlemen? That would be really hip. Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
You guys are trash talkin on here as if you couldn't PM this( send eachother private messages).
More show than substance maybe?
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Also noteworthy is that the shorter distances from 100 to 400 metres were dominated by West Africa origined individuals from in the Americas.
I think there may be a couple more things in play here than just genetic diversity.
Lifestyles and culture come to my mind.
And could this have to do with some sort of evolution similar to convergent evolution? Kind of like what Celt suggested?
I know a theory was put out there and is recieving skepticism because of the time that would have to have passed for such a change to take place.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: East Asians lack the genentic diversity to produce a population of fast athletes comparable to West Africans.....I dont see any other population producing that without Genetic engineering......just my informed opinion based on what Tishkoff said about where the non-african world population descend from....East Africans.
So non-Africans don't have the genetic diversity to produce such athletes ... makes sense, but then again what doesn't make sense is the fact that East africans (with greater genetic diversity than West africans) wouldn't do as well as those in the West in sports that take physical strength, or running short distances.
I've also heard somewhere that Europeans were on average the best suited for heavy lifting because of their (stalkier? )bone structure.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Obenga,
But on a pure per capita basis Cuba has produced excellent world class runners(all of African phenotype), Bahamas(on a strict per capita basis, quite impressive) and Dominican Republic(world champion in 400 metres hurdling).
The British and French running teams are all made up predominantly of West Africa-origined athletes--despite their relatively small national population percentages.
In terms of present world rankings re shorter distances: 1)USA, 2)Jamaica, 3)Nigeria(Europe's top sprinter is Nigerian but now runs for Portugal), 4)Britain, 5) Ghana, and 6)Brazil. Haiti, I believe, also produced some top-rate sprinters but under Canadian flag.
The last European of note in this regard was Valerie Borzov of ex-USSR--but after the defaulting of some U.S. sprinters.
In any case, check the archives and note the huge fuss made about this "flash in the pan".
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
^Re Lamin on athlete makeup in various countries: All the more reason to understand that, if African athletic programs were sufficiently funded, they'll produce a noticeablely impressive presence in althletics *in general*.
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: East Asians lack the genentic diversity to produce a population of fast athletes comparable to West Africans.....I dont see any other population producing that without Genetic engineering......just my informed opinion based on what Tishkoff said about where the non-african world population descend from....East Africans.
So non-Africans don't have the genetic diversity to produce such athletes ... makes sense, but then again what doesn't make sense is the fact that East africans (with greater genetic diversity than West africans) wouldn't do as well as those in the West in sports that take physical strength, or running short distances.
What specific genes are we told about, which have unequivocal influence in certain athletic capabilities?
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Mystery Solver:
What specific genes are we told about, which have unequivocal influence in certain athletic capabilities?
^I don't know ... I'm confused !
Posted by Henu (Member # 13490) on :
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted (which would have made Grumman f6f's post and that of Willing Thinker {What Box} make sense).
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted.
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
What is the warning for? I am guessing that you can clearly read in print who flamed the ethnic war here...but then, perhaps not. Alas, what was I thinking; of course, Celt can make such claims here and not get called out on it.
Posted by Celt (Member # 13774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted.
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
What is the warning for? I am guessing that you can clearly read in print who flamed the ethnic war here...but then, perhaps not. Alas, what was I thinking; of course, Celt can make such claims here and not get called out on it.
My commenting on this thread is to show why no one is superior, nothing more.Put any group of people in the right conditions and they will adapt over generations.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
^Celt,
You should know darn well the racist remark was not about the fast Asians thing, but the running from tigers in Africa( though tigers live in Asia).
What's funny is Cheetahs which also live in Africa are many times faster than humans( what like almost 3X so ). Speed is not what being human is about.
Which is probably why Obenga asked: "Why would only the fast survive?"
quote:Mystery / Supercar:
Celt be prepared to check your pm, for details on the specifics of this meeting. I'll be happy to make this meeting a reality.
LOL
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted.
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
What is the warning for? I am guessing that you can clearly read in print who flamed the ethnic war here...but then, perhaps not. Alas, what was I thinking; of course, Celt can make such claims here and not get called out on it.
Well ... I would say that maybe your initial response to Celt's "running around from the tigers in Africa" remark should not have been deleted, since it just called his remark racist. Unless Celt's initial remark (post #5 RE.#6) was to be deleted, which I by the way didnot initially even realize was racist. Really, it was just ignorant, but I know where you're coming from..
Anyway, any answers to my questions??!
No?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
LOL
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted.
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
What is the warning for? I am guessing that you can clearly read in print who flamed the ethnic war here...but then, perhaps not. Alas, what was I thinking; of course, Celt can make such claims here and not get called out on it.
Well ... I would say that maybe your initial response to Celt's "running around from the tigers in Africa" remark should not have been deleted, since it just called his remark racist. Unless Celt's initial remark (post #5 RE.#6) was to be deleted, which I by the way didnot initially even realize was racist. Really, it was just ignorant, but I know where you're coming from..
Anyway, any answers to my questions??!
No?
The fact of the matter is, I was only replying to Celt, and as for the threats, anyone who can read elementary English, would also realize that I was simplying replying to his call [for which, btw, he could feel free to see the pm I just sent him]. In any case, as far as biased Henu's bent to getting rid off me is concerned, point is well taken.
Posted by Celt (Member # 13774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}: LOL
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted.
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
What is the warning for? I am guessing that you can clearly read in print who flamed the ethnic war here...but then, perhaps not. Alas, what was I thinking; of course, Celt can make such claims here and not get called out on it.
Well ... I would say that maybe your initial response to Celt's "running around from the tigers in Africa" remark should not have been deleted, since it just called his remark racist. Unless Celt's initial remark (post #5 RE.#6) was to be deleted, which I by the way didnot initially even realize was racist. Really, it was just ignorant, but I know where you're coming from..
Anyway, any answers to my questions??!
No?
I'm sorry you didn't get the point I was trying to make. Ignorance has redefined itself apparently. Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
^^
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
^Celt,
You should know damn well that the objection to the remark was not directed towards the fast Asians thing, but the running from tigers in Africa( though tigers live in Asia).
^^
Posted by Celt (Member # 13774) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}: ^^
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
^Celt,
You should know damn well that the objection to the remark was not directed towards the fast Asians thing, but the running from tigers in Africa( though tigers live in Asia).
^^
Gotcha ...I'm well aware of my mistake. Just didn't think I would be crucified for it. Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
It was no mistake. You intentionally made a racialist remark. Man up and stand by your anti-African hatred.
It's well known that Masai for instance one of the few Africans in lion country once had to single handedly huntdown and slay a lion before being admitted to manhood.
You were more than obviously insinuating that all Africa is a wild land where natives must flee lions. You patently are thus promoting the Tarzan image of Africa and Africans in an attempt to belittle Africa and Africans plain and simple.
But then many black Americans and certain horn/east Africans hold this same sentiment about inner Africa and inner Africans, that of uncivilized nature boy wildmen of a savage land ruled by animals instead of environment taming sentient human beings.
Hence your protection by such ones of similar bent and anti-African self-hating mindset.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] It was no mistake. You intentionally made a racialist remark. Man up and stand by your anti-African hatred.
It's well known that Masai for instance one of the few Africans in lion country once had to single handedly huntdown and slay a lion before being admitted to manhood.
You were more than obviously insinuating that all Africa is a wild land where natives must flee lions. You patently are thus promoting the Tarzan image of Africa and Africans in an attempt to belittle Africa and Africans plain and simple.
I specified that the Chinese would also flee tigers(Lions intended). I could have said white people, but the me being a racist comments would have came sooner.Where is it that I have implied that other races would have stood and fought lions while the Africans would have ran? My point was that no race is superior only advantaged by enviromental conditioning and you took it the wrong way. Am I stepping on egg shells here simply because of my race? Do I need to kiss everyones ass on here and tell them what they want to hear instead of what I think is the truth? Did I strike a chord of truth by my comments and send the whole thread into a tailspin? What's the problem here?
Posted by Henu (Member # 13490) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted.
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
What is the warning for? I am guessing that you can clearly read in print who flamed the ethnic war here...but then, perhaps not. Alas, what was I thinking; of course, Celt can make such claims here and not get called out on it.
Who flamed the war is not everything. You also attacked him and made threats. I have nothing against you, but insults and threats are not allowed. I didn't mean to delete the first response (there were a lot of posts to be deleted), but it was against the rules anyway, further instigating the flame war that was to come:
quote:^Just another of the usual racist and intellectually empty comment from the clueless white boy [aka - former alias: Horemheb], who has never set foot in Africa.
Now that's the end of that discussion. You may proceed to discuss the topic at hand; if it degenerates again, the thread will be closed and appropriate consequences carried out.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Delete the entire series of comments starting with the one that sparked it all that is unless your design is to tittilate lurkers and new comers by leaving racialist flame bating intact for posterity.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
Celt
The racialist accusations did not come because of you choosing Chinese over white europeans - I think you need to reread alTakruris post.
Honestly, I think I am one of the most pro black african people on the forum, but that didn't phase me enough to elaborate like ma man alTukr or "crucify" you by calling you racist.
Posted by Celt (Member # 13774) on :
Everyone carry on with the original topic and I'll stay out of it. I really don't want to get into anything else that is going to get me or anyone else banned.
Posted by Henu (Member # 13490) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Delete the entire series of comments starting with the one that sparked it all that is unless your design is to tittilate lurkers and new comers by leaving racialist flame bating intact for posterity.
Posting racialist (not racist) comments is fine, so long as it's not instigating; the original comment (about tigers, etc.) was obviously completely wrong, but not flaming.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
quote:Originally posted by Celt:
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: There are no Tigers in Africa.
Lions will do. [/QB]
U dont get it.....there are Tigers in China....it didnt help produce a population of fast chinese in China and yet u think Tigers in Africa will produce fast Chinese in Africa after a while.
China actively search out all the athletic talent they can find, they place great emphasis on finding athletes from a young age and training them. We know how big their population and is and yet no sprinters of note.
Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
Insult exchanges and threats made by Mystery Solver and Celt deleted.
Celt, this is your first warning.
Mysetery Solver, this is your second warning. Reform your behavior. You only have one warning left.
What is the warning for? I am guessing that you can clearly read in print who flamed the ethnic war here...but then, perhaps not. Alas, what was I thinking; of course, Celt can make such claims here and not get called out on it.
Who flamed the war is not everything.
Of course, it is everything, because the people or person(s) attacked will not simply stand there like statues and take it, while you sit there do nothing until those attacked defend themselves.
quote:Henu:
You also attacked him and made threats.
Repost where I've attacked the guy. I simply called him out, and named him clueless, rightfully for making such an overt racist comment. But let me guess, you are going to whine about how you've already deleted the posts that everyone else who participated in this thread earlier on, will have witnessed. Celt is the one who 'dared' me to face him, and I replied him on his "keyboard" bluff. So, if the toothless keyboard threat of violence has occurred here, you had to look no further than the person offering the threat. Tell me, how that is an attack, as opposed to a reply to a call made before me? If someone asked you to face them, and you replied that you are willing to take the offer, tell me Henu, how that reflects on you [as the replier] as the attacker? I know, this will be followed by self-pitied and self-aggrandized false sense of accomplishment on your part, telling me how you've already deleted the posts and cannot regain them, and how "unbiased" of a moderator you supposedly are. I tell you, right now trolls got to be looking at you, and know that they can count on you for ridding the forum off of its top contributors, who have helped shape Egyptsearch into the forum it has come to be, i.e. one where nobody can come in unabated, spreading propaganda and subjective reactionary motivated ideology, that necessitates the gross distortion of the Nile Valley heritages. I know for sure that if I were a troll, I'd be extremely happy to have you as a moderator.
quote:Henu:
I have nothing against you, but insults and threats are not allowed.
Of course you do. It was clear for eveyone else to see herein, but YOU, that Celt has made a blatant racist comment, and was addressed accordingly. Likewise, it was clear to everyone else but YOU, that it was Celt who instigated the threat of face-to-face violence, and I merely replied him on his cheap "keyboard talk" bluff. If you didn't have something against me, you would have warned him alone, for he is the trouble maker here, and make it known to him, that he alone will be held accountable for starting trouble. Trolls don't care if they have to drag in contributing posters along with them; heck, that is their goal, to get obedient gullible moderators to cleanse the forum of its challenging and knowledgeable posters...or intimidate them into silence as garbage takes hold on the forum. That is the danger that this forum faces; mark my words.
The same thing you did when Tyranno spat out gratuitous profanity at me, for which you excused yourself, by saying that you weren't a moderator. Knowing how biased you are, Tyranno knew he could count on you once again, while he offered his "apology" repeating the profanity along with it. Others who closely examined the trend, also knew they can take their chance like Tyranno and Celt, and start flaming. A good example of this would be Africa, who casually started flaming in a thread about the questionable use of "black African" in daily African studies discourse. With impunity, he went so far as to drag me into another discourse, where Mansa Musa basically insisted on having people divulge their personal info, which has nothing to do with either the subject of the board or is of anyone's business; sure enough, his goal was accomplished, because right after you warned him, you also warned me with your first "official warning"...again, for responding to attacks leveled at me. So yes, you do have something against me, and now, I too have one against you...your skewed and biased moderation!
quote:Henu:
I didn't mean to delete the first response (there were a lot of posts to be deleted), but it was against the rules anyway, further instigating the flame war that was to come
You should have let the posts in, because they would have vindicated me, and exposed you for who you are.
quote:Henu:
quote:^Just another of the usual racist and intellectually empty comment from the clueless white boy [aka - former alias: Horemheb], who has never set foot in Africa.
Now that's the end of that discussion. You may proceed to discuss the topic at hand; if it degenerates again, the thread will be closed and appropriate consequences carried out.
I'm done with this thread...pending any additional reply to you; Celt has done his job; he knew you wouldn't disappoint him, and he was right!
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
Delete the entire series of comments starting with the one that sparked it all that is unless your design is to tittilate lurkers and new comers by leaving racialist flame bating intact for posterity.
Posting racialist (not racist) comments is fine, so long as it's not instigating; the original comment (about tigers, etc.) was obviously completely wrong, but not flaming.
You may sit there and fool yourself into thinking that someone saying that Africans became good at running, by being chased by tigers, is not a racist comment, especially from a poster notorious for his racist stand on Africans...and that placing a bunch of Chinese in the same situation, they'll come out as fast runners. Oh yeah, it is a comment that has to be taken as "informational" at best, and taken at face value, for if Africans can run that fast, they'd be actually faster than even tigers...duh. At worst, it should be taken as "ignorant" or what you dubbed "racialist", not "racist".
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri:
It was no mistake. You intentionally made a racialist remark. Man up and stand by your anti-African hatred.
It's well known that Masai for instance one of the few Africans in lion country once had to single handedly huntdown and slay a lion before being admitted to manhood.
You were more than obviously insinuating that all Africa is a wild land where natives must flee lions. You patently are thus promoting the Tarzan image of Africa and Africans in an attempt to belittle Africa and Africans plain and simple.
But then many black Americans and certain horn/east Africans hold this same sentiment about inner Africa and inner Africans, that of uncivilized nature boy wildmen of a savage land ruled by animals instead of environment taming sentient human beings.
Hence your protection by such ones of similar bent and anti-African self-hating mindset.
quote:Originally posted by Celt: Gotcha ...I'm well aware of my "mistake" Just didn't think I would be crucified for it.
Of course, as highlighted, that is just it. Anyone who couldn't read into those implications, would have to be profoundly stupid to have missed it. I will differ with you, and say that his comment was outright racist. In fact, his comments would have obviously applied to those same horn/east Africans that you mentioned, as they were amongst the subjects mentioned as being known to have good long-distance runners. If we were so gullible, we would have to look at Celts comments with blank faces, when he basically suggests that these said peoples don't actually do the necessary preparations and planning for the athletic events, but basically live in the bushes, where they "unintentionally" become fast-runners, because if they were to survive being chased by wild animals, namely the tiger, they'd have to outrun the said wild animals. So I guess, "clueless" people of those countries are just randomly picked up from the wild, and are told to run against other athletes from around the world, without having a clue as to the goal of the event or any associated incentive that came along with it.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Obenga,
You are wrong about Europeans dominating swimming and power-lifting because of genetics. The only way one can prove your claim is for swimming facilities and lower-lifting facilities be available equally to all populations and all encouraged to participate.
On the other hand, all the sports and training conditions that Africans excel at are easily available to European populations. For example, any individual of European background, were he/she interested in distance running, could very easily find excellent training conditions either in Europe, North America or Australia.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Henu:
Who flamed the war is not everything.
quote:
[quote]Super Solver:
Of course, it is everything, because the people or person(s) attacked will not simply stand there like statues and take it
1, this is the internet.
2, we have P.M.s, or private messages.
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Obenga,
You are wrong about Europeans dominating swimming and power-lifting because of genetics. The only way one can prove your claim is for swimming facilities and lower-lifting facilities be available equally to all populations and all encouraged to participate.
That still wouldn't prove anything.
Other factors come into play are motivation and incentive, trust me, I love in a diverse area, these are crucial.
I notice that on the predominantly black South side, and in Youngstown in general, kids are outside playing all day, or we dance, or we're doing something social.
In the more "white" areas, such as the one I live in, we're into more laid back activities. We do social activities almost as much as them (visiting, video games), but there's much more to do than physical activities.
Youngstown teams are better than those in my town-ship until I got to my (diverse) highschool( technically in Y-town).
However, as far as high school football's concerned, we've played some sorry black teams, white teams, and gotten beaten by some white and black teams.
Point being, that when they try, they are just as good as us on average (until we approach the highest skill level (pro level).
quote:On the other hand, all the sports and training conditions that Africans excel at are easily available to European populations. For example, any individual of European background, were he/she interested in distance running, could very easily find excellent training conditions either in Europe, North America or Australia.
Also lamin, black Americans have more access to study resources, yet are outdone by their African counterparts. You should clearly see what I'm getting at.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
To Willing Thinker:
Note that I used the word "encourage" to qualify what I wrote about access to sporting activities. Encouragement usually comes from private and government intitiatives and as a result there would always be individuals who on account of just persoan interest or fascination will engage in a sport or activity the general culture shows little inclination for.
You mention educational resources for African Americans and Africans. As an egalitarian your observation is erroneous.
Here's why: African Americans are some 4% of the world's total black population. Africans in Africa constitute some 90% of t he world's blacks so on a strictly per capita basis your point doesn't hold.
I don't deny that cultural(that is learned behaviour that is passed on generationally)factors play an important role and that's why when there's intervention[encouragement along with opportunities] into a specific culture by outside forces such as the government--cultural traits often change.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
One reason crying racism has lost the power to make people cringe at the label is because of its inappropriate use for lesser evils. If one does not effect another's physical financial educational etc being due to race then that one is not a racist.
Someone who expresses race based ideas is just a racialist not a racist. Those of us who actually took part in any struggle against racism know this.
Racism is a term designating behaviour. Racialism is a term reserved for doctrines.
Racism is physical enforcement. Racialism is theoretical and ideological.
This ideology originated in Western Europe in the mid eighteenth-century and extended to about the mid-twentieth.
Tzvetan Todorov Race and Racism in Bill Ashcroft, Gareth Griffths & Helen Tiffin (eds.) The Postcolonial Studies Reader, 2nd ed. Oxford: Routledge, 2006 pp. 213-215
Apparently having never undergone assualt, overt or subtle, Henu doesn't know a racialist insult when (s)he reads one.
This attitude is epitomized by the anecdote where the American black man is handed a watermelon by his white "colleagues" and thanks them for it but later becomes quite irate toward his black "colleagues" upon discovering they smashed the watermelon.
Pity the fool who lacks the understanding to even recognize (s)he's been insulted.
quote:Originally posted by Henu:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Delete the entire series of comments starting with the one that sparked it all that is unless your design is to tittilate lurkers and new comers by leaving racialist flame bating intact for posterity.
Posting racialist (not racist) comments is fine, so long as it's not instigating; the original comment (about tigers, etc.) was obviously completely wrong, but not flaming.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Obenga,
You are wrong about Europeans dominating swimming and power-lifting because of genetics. The only way one can prove your claim is for swimming facilities and lower-lifting facilities be available equally to all populations and all encouraged to participate.
Those facilities are available to Blacks living in western society.....America and Europe dont bar Black athletes from using them.
Blacks have less subcutaneous fat and denser bones....a bad combo if u wanna be a good swimmer because it makes one less buoyant.
Now I am generalizing a bit we could get technical and speak of specific groups/populations and such because it's not really as simple as saying black people or even africans. Different populations in Africa have different traits.
Anyone who wants to think we may see 8 native americans make the 100m dash olympic final if they train the same as the elite west african descended guys can go ahead and think that.....they should pack a lunch while they are waiting to see that because they are going to be waiting a while for that to happen.
I realize it's not PC but the physical differences are a matter of record at this point...it is what it is. Maybe some other populations can challenge Northen europeans in the power strength events....like some of these pacific island guys for example but are u really trying to say any population of humans can physically do what any other can?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Just to let you guys know (especially Celt), that it is just as racist to assume superior traits of physicality for a group or 'race' of people as it is to assume inferior traits of mentality.
The point is any individual can attain such physical skills through good training and especially a good genotype, although such genotype has nothing to do with skin-color and other features.
I'm sure ancient Greek men would give all modern world Olympic contestants a good run for their money (pun intended). Forensic analysis of Classical Greek remains show that Greek runners during that time were in many ways superior to their modern counterparts and many suggest this to be due to intensive training.
Even the modern Africans runners like those from Kenya didn't get to where they were without training such as running for tens of miles straight.
By the way, Mystery brought up an interesting topic.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}:
quote:Henu:
Who flamed the war is not everything.
quote:Super Solver:
Of course, it is everything, because the people or person(s) attacked will not simply stand there like statues and take it
1, this is the internet.
And?
quote:Willing Thinker:
2, we have P.M.s, or private messages.
1) Yes, we have PMs. My response to Celt had something to do with what he said in relation to the ongoing discussion, and so, I'm not going to PM him that.
2) If he attacks me publically, I'll deal with him publically.
3) I had made it a general rule to close my PM, which I didn't initially mind leaving open, hoping to leave it open for constructive discussants who are well-meaning and want to learn about something, but it soon became exposed to abusers, and so was closed, until I was forced to confront Celt and adviced to PM him for further inappropriate exchange.
4)You could do the same, i.e. using PM, with the many back and forth bickerings you've done with various posters. Practice what you preach.
Ps - for those advocating genetic superiority for sports. Again, please locate the genes that we are told are responsible, and how. Thanks.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
"Speed Demons The Domination of Sport by Blacks By Jose Antonio, PhD and Chris Street, MS
WARNING: If you're a white bigot, don't read the following article. It might cause your red neck to get even redder. The premise of this article is, quite simply, that blacks are better athletes than whites. Authors Antonio and Street back it up mostly with cold, hard, seemingly irrefutable facts. Why has it been published in Testosterone? Well, it's about sports, it's about muscle, and it's something other publishers are loathe to touch. It's too?controversial. I guess that's what attracted us to the article in the first place. But why is it controversial? Anyone who watches sports must have noticed that there are a disproportionate number of black professional athletes out there. It must be that Billy Bob doesn't want to hear that blacks are faster than whites. In fact, Billy Bob doesn't want to hear that blacks are superior to whites in any way, shape, manner, or form.
Read the article. Tell us what you think. If it pisses you off, we're not located at 10 North Meade in Colorado Springs; we're in the building next door; or maybe the one across the street; anywhere but 10 North Meade.
"Well, I always say that the best athletes in the world play in the NBA. I say this because the hand-eye coordination is there, the speed, the jumping ability. They are the best conditioned athletes in the world, in my opinion.... It is a fact, you look at it and it goes from somebody as small as Mugsy Bogues that plays in that league to someone as big as Shaquille O'Neil. Hakeem Olajuwon is probably 7 foot with the agility of someone that is about 6 foot. Its just a fact that blacks are better. I don't know why, it's maybe some genetic makeup or something, but it's there."
?Excerpt from an interview with Andre Ware NFL Quarterback and Heisman Trophy Winner
The Myth of Black and White Athletic Equality
It is apparent to most of us that there are profound differences between individuals when it comes to academic, professional, or athletic performance. In fact, it's so obvious that we expect someone to be the tallest, shortest, smartest, fastest, or dumbest within any group of people. Your experience in grade school through college made it apparent that not all of us could make the dean's list much less play on a Division I football team. Some people just don't have the tools.
Why then do people assume that all groups of people (i.e. races, ethnicities, etc.) have the same talents and capacities? Certainly, this country was founded on the belief that all men (and presumably women) were created equally? Was it not? The Declaration of Independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." President Jefferson was a brilliant man, but with regard to all men created equal, certainly in a biological sense, nothing could be further from the truth.
There is a huge difference between male black and white athletes when it comes to speed, i.e. sprint performance, particularly the 100-meter (100m) dash. The top twenty fastest times in the men's 100m dash in 1994 were all held by blacks (from different countries such as US, Canada, Nigeria, and Great Britain). An examination of the Olympic 100m dash in the past 20-30 years shows an utter dominance by black athletes. Within the US, it is obvious that black Americans dominate the 100m dash at the high school and college level. The "speed" positions in professional American football (i.e. tailback, wide receiver, cornerback) are almost exclusively held by blacks. In fact, there was just a single white athlete starting at any of those three positions in professional football in 1997.
Such a huge discrepancy, yet the most common (public) explanation for this phenomenon is that blacks are socialized to excel at these events. Really? You mean to say that out of a country of approximately 260 million, where blacks make up only 12% of the population, in which there are 5-6 times more whites than blacks, that there are no white guys who excel at these activities? Furthermore, you never see an Asian (American or otherwise) competing in the higher echelon of these sports. Nor do you see any Hispanics or Latinos in these events. Granted, socialization may explain, in part, the apparent dominance of blacks in football or basketball, but this explanation is sorely inadequate when it comes to running.
Everyone can run, and it doesn't matter whether you are in China, Russia, or the US You don't need any special equipment and it doesn't require any specialized skills. Because of the ubiquity of running, one would expect somewhat proportional representation among all races or groups of people in world class competition (e.g., Olympics). That, of course, is based on the premise that all races have equal capacities for running fast. Yet, the reality is that one group, blacks, win nearly every sprint race. Whites will on occasion win (Valeri Borzov of the former Soviet Union won the 100m and 200m dash at the 1972 Olympics). However, Asians will, in our humble opinion, never be competitive with black Americans in world class sprinting. The idea that blacks are socialized to excel in sprints is disputable in that many of these black athletes come from countries other than the United States. Are blacks from the United Kingdom, the Caribbean, and West Africa also "socialized" to run fast?
Besides, in a country with over 20% of the world's population, why can't China field a 100m sprinter to compete with black Americans who represent a paltry 0.6% of the world's population. Is there a white or Asian equivalent of Carl Lewis or Michael Johnson out there?
It certainly stands to reason that if races differ in facial shape, height, weight, skin color, or hair texture, why should a characteristic such as running fast be identical between different groups? It would seem extremely naive to believe that we all have the same capacities and abilities.
Motor Geniuses
Scientific evidence suggests that black infants are more advanced than white children in motor development during the first two years of life. Several studies which have compared black and white American infants suggest a strong race difference in motor development. Fourth, fifth, and sixth grade black boys and girls run the 35 yard dash faster than their white peers. Also, black boys in high school have a greater vertical jump than white boys. In a review by Robert Malina in The Canadian Journal of Sport Sciences (1988), the author compiled several studies of motor performance between black and white males between 1938 and 1976. Even over this extended period of time, the results are remarkably consistent. That is, blacks did better in tests of motor ability at all time points. Blacks performed better in the dash (sprint). How much of a difference in motor performance can be attributed to environmental vs. genetic causes? The fact that black children demonstrate better motor abilities than whites does not support the idea that blacks are pushed into sports which require speed. Certainly, these children have not had ample time nor the instruction or coaching to train for speed.
Real World Speed
In an intriguing study done in 1988 at Ohio State University by David W. Hunter (now at Hampton University), he compared laboratory and "real-world" measurements of anaerobic power or performance. He examined 74 black and 62 white males (avg age = 16.5 yr). There were no differences in age, height, weight, lean body weight, and body mass index (body weight in kilograms divided by the square of body height in meters). However, black subjects had significantly less percentage of body fat. There were no differences in anaerobic power measured using the Wingate test and the Margaria power test (two common laboratory tests used to measure anaerobic performance). However, black subjects performed significantly better at the vertical jump and 40-yard dash (4.8 vs. 5.0 seconds) than the white subjects. A difference of 4.8 and 5.0 seconds in the 40-yard dash may seem insignificant. But on the playing field, this numerically small difference could translate into a huge performance difference. All things being equal, the faster athlete is usually the better athlete.
Interestingly, Dr. Hunter performed a statistical manipulation called Analysis of Covariance, or ANCOVA for short. ANCOVA for the 40-yard dash with the percent fat as the covariate, according to Dr. Hunter, "washed out" the statistical difference in the 40-yard dash between the groups. What this means in English is that when you equate blacks and whites for percent fat, then there is no difference in sprint performance. Furthermore, when height, weight, percent fat, lean body mass, and body mass index were used as covariates, there was no longer any differences between blacks and whites. But what's so intriguing about the Hunter data is that even while equalizing percent fat for the black and white subjects, the black subjects still had a faster dash time! (4.851 sec vs. 4.947 sec). The fact of the matter is, blacks have on average, much less body fat than whites. And if this variable provides black males with an advantage in sprinting, then so be it. Massaging the data with various statistical tests only clouds the obvious facts. Blacks and whites are not the same. Blacks (of all ages) do run faster than whites on average. Yes, there are fast white guys, but not many.
Fast Versus Slow Muscle
Muscle is the key to athletics, period! There is nothing more obvious in comparing the physiques of different athletes than the way their muscles are shaped for a specific task or purpose. Keep in mind that sprint (and endurance) athletes at the world-class level tend to exhibit extreme differences in fiber-type percentages. Sprint athletes may have 75% or more fast-twitch fibers while distance runners may have 75% or more of slow-twitch fibers. For the most part, fiber type composition is a product of heredity; however, training may alter it slightly, but not enough to result in the high percentage of fast-twitch fibers needed in elite sprinters.
Canadian scientists, Drs. J. Simoneau and C. Bouchard, have estimated that 40% of the phenotypic variance of fiber type is due to environmental influences (i.e. exercise) while 45% is associated with genetic factors. (The remaining 15% is due to sampling error). So in actuality, all athletes are born with a given potential. Training will maximize that potential. But if you're not born with the potential, you will never become a world-class sprinter or distance runner.
Does the predominance of blacks in sprints suggest that blacks, as a group, tend to be better endowed with fast-twitch muscle fibers? There is only one scientific report which measured skeletal muscle characteristics in a black and white population. Ama, et al. examined 23 black male African students from Cameroon, Senegal, Zaire, Ivory Coast, and Burundi and 23 male Caucasian students from Laval University in Canada. These were untrained sedentary individuals. They were matched for age, body weight, and body mass index (weight measured in kilos divided by the square of height in meters). Muscle biopsies from the vastus lateralis muscle of the thigh revealed that the white subjects had 8% more Type I muscle fibers and 7% less Type IIa fibers than black subjects. Enzymes involved in the phosphagenic and glycolytic metabolic pathways were 30-40% higher in black subjects. These metabolic pathways are the ones used during quick burst activities (i.e. sprint). These results are compatible with the idea that blacks, as a group, seem to be better endowed to perform well in sprint events. We are aware, however, that other factors besides muscle fiber type can contribute to excellence in the sprint. In a similar study, scientists compared the performance of 15 black men from Cameroon, Ivory Coast, Rwanda, Tchad, and Zaire and 17 white Canadians of French descent. They were matched for weight, height, body mass index, fat-free mass, and thigh volume. They did maximal isometric contractions of the knee extensors for 10, 30, and 90 seconds and found no statistically significant difference in maximal force or total work performed. However, there was a trend for blacks to exceed whites in peak power output (9% higher) although it was not statistically significant.
Keep in mind, however, that very small differences in physical performance may translate into a very meaningful difference in the "real" world of athletic competition. Just check out any major track meet and examine the differences in time between first and last place. The difference in time between first and second place is often much less than 1 percent. The difference between first and last place is a mere 2-3 percent. When the difference between the gold and silver medal is determined by 100ths of seconds, it is obvious that just because a statistical difference is not demonstrable, it does not necessarily mean that real performance differences do not exist! So in reference to the aforementioned Canadian study, it is true that statistically significant differences were not found between blacks and whites in peak power output (albeit blacks had a 9% higher average value); nevertheless, it is obvious that differences much smaller than that result in very profound effects on who the winners and losers are in a race.
More Muscle, Less Fat
Anthropometry (the science of measuring the human body) and body fat distribution was ascertained in over 100 Anglo-, black-, and Mexican-American men and women. Black-American men had significantly less total fat than either Anglo- or Mexican-American men. Black men also had less arm fat than both groups and less truncal fat than Mexican-Americans. Black-American women tended to carry less body fat than Mexican-American women; however, they did not significantly differ from Anglo-American women.
There is ample data to show that blacks of all ages do possess less absolute and relative body fat than whites. In addition, blacks possess greater appendicular muscle mass than whites or Asians. This racial difference certainly confers an advantage in which extreme leanness is a prerequisite.
Longer Legs, But a Shorter Trunk
"We are built a little differently, built for speed?skinny calves, long legs, high asses are all characteristics of blacks. That's why blacks wear long socks. We have skinny calves, and short socks won't stay up. I'll argue with any doctor that physically we're geared to speed, and most sports have something to do with speed."
?OJ Simpson Time Magazine, 1977
Now we're not so sure about the socks, but as far as the rest of the statement, we actually agree with the Greatest Running Back (and double murderer) ever to grace the football field. The length of the upper and lower extremities between blacks, whites, and Asians is obviously different to anyone with 20/20 vision. Asians (East Asians: Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese) tend to be smaller with relatively short extremities and long torsos. Blacks tend to have relatively long extremities with short torsos and whites are somewhere in between.
As early as 1939, it has been reported that as a group, blacks tend to have longer arms and legs (as a percentage of height), narrower hips, and more slender calves than whites. According to noted scientist Robert Malina, "black youth have absolutely and relatively longer lower extremities than Mexican-American and white youth."
No Bones About It
The greater body density of blacks is likely due to a higher bone density. In a study by Bell et al., they compared bone density in 59 normal white men and 40 normal black men (ages 20-50). They found that the bone mineral density was higher in blacks than in whites measured at the lumbar spine, trochanter, and femoral neck. In a similar study which matched black and white men in mean weight, height, and body mass index, black men again had higher bone mineral densities at every site measured (5% for the radius, 10% for the lumbar spine, and 20% for the femoral neck).
Scientists believe that blacks have heavier bones at all stages of life, including infancy. Skeletons of blacks exceed white skeletons and male skeletons exceed female skeletons in mean weight and density.
That notion that bone density among American (and many African) blacks exceeds that of white and Asians is beyond dispute. Blacks maintain such a difference despite lower calcium intake than whites and a higher prevalence of lactose intolerance which prevents them from consuming dairy products.
Testosterone
It is known that testosterone is anabolic with regard to skeletal muscle and catabolic with regard to fat. Could this explain the increased muscularity and decreased fat mass of blacks vs. whites and other races or ethnicities? In the few studies that are available, blacks have a modest but significantly higher level of plasma testosterone (3-19%). Could this affect athletic performance? We strongly believe so. It would make it easier to accrue skeletal muscle mass. Further, it may aid one's training by increasing training intensity and recovery ability, translating of course, into better performance.
Summary
Based on the available evidence, it is plausible that there are physical differences between the races which cannot be accounted for by environmental influences. Some differences may or may not predispose blacks to excellence in speed events. Mere observation of both male and female sprinters reveals that the overwhelming majority of them have short torsos and relatively long upper and lower extremities. Furthermore, extreme leanness is a hallmark characteristic of elite sprinters. And it is a well known fact, that blacks on average do carry less body fat than whites. Thus, it would make sense that at least with regard to this characteristic, blacks have an advantage.
The difference in fiber type between blacks and whites needs to be repeated and confirmed. However, empirical evidence (i.e. the domination of sprints by blacks) would suggest that blacks may have a predominance of fast-twitch muscle fibers. We would speculate that a certain percentage of fast-twitch fibers is needed (>70% ?) to sprint at the elite level. This could easily be confirmed.
The higher bone density of blacks has intriguing implications. Bone density is directly related to muscle mass. Blacks do on average carry greater appendicular skeletal muscle mass. Certainly by having more skeletal muscle mass, this would confer an athletic advantage in a general sense, in that your force output should be greater (than someone with less skeletal muscle).
Hormonal factors play a role. Higher levels of testosterone and growth hormone would, in our speculation, lead to a higher fat-free mass (especially skeletal muscle and bone) and a lower fat mass.
So is it nature vs. nurture? Well, it really is both. In essence, all athletes are born and made. Modern athletic performance is a function of better training, coaching, nutrition, ergogenic aids (licit or illicit), and heredity.
It's just too bad that the public stance of many is governed more by political correctness and a fear of being labeled a bigot or racist. The notion that all groups of people are created "equally" is naive and unsupported empirically and scientifically; and only when we can admit that, can we have a truly honest discussion concerning race and athletic performance.
NOTE: The preceding article was excerpted from the book, "Speed Demons" which is currently a work-in-progress.
About the Authors
Dr. Jose Antonio earned his Ph.D. at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center. He currently teaches skeletal muscle physiology at the University of Texas, Arlington, serves as a consultant for fitness/nutrition companies, and writes both scientific and popular press articles on exercise, fitness, and nutrition. He can be reached by clicking the hotlink Dr. Antonio.
Chris Street has a Master's degree in exercise physiology and is certified by the National Strength and Conditioning Association. A former competitive powerlifter, Chris combines his knowledge of exercise science with real world experience. He currently writes on various topics including nutrition, exercise training, and drug use in sports."
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
So how then do we explain the success of the distance runners from East Africa and North Africa(just Algeria and Morocco)but not Tunisia, Libya and Egypt.
The thing about blacks and swimming is pure myth. Cuba has produced good black swimmers and there was once an oustanding black swimmer from Suriname.
But blacks in the U.S. have easily beaten the white competion when they are trained to do so. Success in swimming comes from having large feet, poweful shoulders and long legs and arms. What does bone density have to do with it. After all, swimming is not just floating. It's powering your way through water using large feet and long arms.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
In my vim and vigor days I could never bench press more than 300 pounds at one time. I had been doing the weight thing for nearly a year and just couldn't do it. Of course I'm sure if I had lingered just a bit longer I probably could've bypassed that figure and tackled 350. No sweat guys. The will is there. I can do it. All the best training in the USA will see to that.
What's amazing is some here will probably look at the evidence above and say bs. Sad. Even if the above information was nowhere to be found it couldn't/wouldn't change anything.
Question: how long will it take for those seven feet dudes in Africa, with the proper training and nutrition of course, to clean and jerk 300 pounds? That's picking that weight off the floor, bringing it up to your chest then lifting it over your head.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Djehuti said: ''I'm sure ancient Greek men would give all modern world Olympic contestants a good run for their money (pun intended).
If the Black athlete finishes the 100 yard dash in 9 seconds, or hundreths more, and the Greek runner finishes two seconds behind him, how you would you classify this race... close? No. This is an ass whuppin' in track and field.
Since you bring up something over two thousand years (?) ago and attempt to use it in a modern interpretation what evidence is available to support the below contention.
''Forensic analysis of Classical Greek remains show that Greek runners during that time were in many ways superior to their modern counterparts and many suggest this to be due to intensive training.''
By the way, if you're referring to Hermes then it's no wonder this clown had wings on his feet being God of business. He probably had something to do with Ken Lay.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
Gotcha, Super Solver.
quote:Originally posted by Super Solver:
Ps - for those advocating genetic superiority for sports. Again, please locate the genes that we are told are responsible, and how. Thanks.
Thankyou, Supercar.^
quote:Originally posted by lamin: You mention educational resources for African Americans and Africans. As an egalitarian your observation is erroneous.
Here's why: African Americans are some 4% of the world's total black population. Africans in Africa constitute some 90% of t he world's blacks so on a strictly per capita basis your point doesn't hold.
Well I don't like labels if you're labeling me, but point taken.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The point is any individual can attain such physical skills through good training and especially a good genotype, although such genotype has nothing to do with skin-color and other features.
THANK YOU, Djehuti, not enough people realize this simple fact.
quote:I'm sure ancient Greek men would give all modern world Olympic contestants a good run for their money (pun intended). Forensic analysis of Classical Greek remains show that Greek runners during that time were in many ways superior to their modern counterparts and many suggest this to be due to intensive training.
Even the modern Africans runners like those from Kenya didn't get to where they were without training such as running for tens of miles straight.
By the way, Mystery brought up an interesting topic.
Also, alot of people don't realize that throughout the range of human physical ability, the 'races' likely overlap, making 'race' pointless to talk about.
So lamin, come on, where are them genes?
Thanks. Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
I am not talking about genes--since gene analysis when it comes to human behaviour is a very complex thing because the environment necessarily plays an important role. Take the case of those Kenyan distance runners. I read that most come from a specific region in Kenya.
But I want to suspect that it all boils down to having the right body type for the athletic task at hand. It so happens that successful Africa-derived athletes(West and East) are endowed with the most efficient body types for the athletic tasks at hand.
Posted by bettadon_eq_8 (Member # 14106) on :
My 2cents is this thread should be closed.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Most people of all races assume that blacks are superior athletes and that this superiority is due to physical superiority as opposed to mental or psychological superiority. However, there is a complete lack of scientific evidence supporting the physical differences theory of black athletic superiority. Blacks can and must use the rapid ascent of blacks in sports as a springboard to achievement in other areas.
When I ask my white friends for evidence that blacks are superior athletes, they point immediately to the National Basketball Association (NBA) as indisputable evidence. However, I have heard these same whites state that Tiger Woods is not really a black golfer, since he is only part black and also part asian. However, they totally overlook NBA players like Mike Bibby or Jason Kidd who are also obviously part black (and lighter in complexion than Tiger Woods) but who still out-perform their blacker counterparts in the NBA.
What would surprise these whites, and many blacks is the fact that there is no scientific evidence that blacks possess physical characteristics that make them athletically superior. This does not mean that blacks may not possess these characteristics, it is just that there are no scientific, repeatable studies that prove that these differences exist.
This is significant because whites have implicitly and explicitly assumed that black physical superiority came with a trade-off; black mental inferiority. Whites have implied that while blacks might be physically superior, they lacked the mental toughness or mental stamina of whites. The rise of Tiger Woods in golf and the Williams sisters in tennis are only the most recent setbacks to this theory. However, in the past, whites applied this same assumption of mental inferiority to blacks who played football and even basketball.
In football, blacks where assumed to not be able to play quarterback, safety or middle linebacker, because these positions required too much "thinking" for the black athlete. In basketball, it was believed that blacks did not have the mental "strength" to handle the pressure of a close game. Actual athletic performance on the playing field has destroyed these beliefs.
In today's world, it is hard to understand the mental toughness required by black athletes in the 1950's and 1960's. For example, today's black athletes are routinely cheered by white spectators. Black stars are provided, or allegedly provided, star treatment by referees, coaches, the media, etc. However, the situation was the total opposite in 1950. Blacks were often booed by fans, abused and demeaned by their coaches and treated poorly by referees.
However, these athletes excelled because of their mental toughness. They performed well in spite of all of the obstacles they faced which required superior mental toughness, discipline and focus. Most importantly, these athletes had to believe in themselves for long periods of time, even when no one else did. This belief often came with a price. People in power do not liked to proven wrong, and many of these black athletes incurred the enmity of white society, which was played out in the media.
That this enmity still exists is shown by the treatment of the Williams sisters. They became the top women tennis players, but went against the recommendation of the tennis experts at almost every step of the way. Their father did not let them play in many junior tournaments before they became professionals. He did not bring in a professional coach and he predicted that they would become the top two women's tennis players, which the experts saw as arrogant bravado. However, the experts were proven wrong and but the Williams sisters have paid a price in the media.
The media picked up and re-circulated rumors that the matches between the two sisters were fixed, even though there is no hard evidence to support these rumors. Based on these rumors, a tennis crowd booed Serena Williams at a tennis tournament throughout her match. This behavior is highly unusual for tennis audiences.
However, Serena maintained her mental composure and won the match. Moreover, in the year 2002 she became the top rated player by winning the French Open on Clay and Wimbledon on grass. Grass and clay are considered more strategic surfaces and less well suited to the power game of the Williams sisters. Obviously, their mental tennis must have improved for them to become the top-rated women in the world. Not surprisingly, there are now new rumors hinting at potential steroid use.
What is more important for black people is the possibility of mental prowess as a key to success. Blacks often buy into what they are told by whites. We have bought into the belief in black physical superiority almost without question. However, what if blacks succeeded in athletics due to the very mental toughness that whites say that we lack? It seems clear that blacks for the last 50 years and beyond have consistently displayed superior mental toughness over and over again in the face of overwhelming odds.
Mental toughness is important for success no matter your profession. It is important for blacks to realize that mental toughness is also transferable. If you have it in sports, you can transfer it to business and economics. I can provide two immediate examples.
A manager at a top recruiting firm in Los Angeles is black and is the only black manager for this mid-west owned company. He is also a former college basketball player. This manager has been successful for 18 years in spite of changing economic conditions. He has achieved this success without benefit of government contracts or minority placements. He has placed predominately white candidates with white-owned companies and succeeded in supporting a family that includes four children and a stay-at-home wife. More amazingly, he has no salary, but is 100% on commission. Also, he has been a manager of the Los Angeles office for 12 years while still maintaining his commission only status.
Downstairs, in the same building is a black sales representative with the largest computer training company in the United States. This gentleman is a former college football player. He has not only survived but has excelled over ten years in spite of rapid changes in computer technology.
I know both of these gentleman personally, and what I find interesting is not their success, but their mental toughness. The black recruiting manager single-handedly saved the Los Angeles office from closure during the beginning of 2002 through his own placements. The black sales training representative has survived four layoffs in five years and likens the pressure of his job to the "two-minute drill". Both have transferred the same toughness that they learned in basketball and football to the business world. They prove that it can be done and probably scare the hell out of those whites who believe that black physical superiority implies black mental inferiority.
As a people, blacks must use our sports successes as a source of inspiration. In only 50 years, we have gone from minor participants to domination of most of the major sports and some of the minor sports. This is an unprecedented turn-around. We need to study this success and find ways to apply it to business so that in 50 years whites will be saying that we have special powers that make it impossible to compete with blacks in business.
Genetically based, anatomical differences help explain why athletes of primarily West African ancestry hold 97 percent of top sprint times, including 494 of the top 500 100-meter times, yet are not very good at endurance sports, which requires a much different physiology.
I dont think any said black athletes are superior......the thread spoke of one action....running. Certainly thats what I responded too as I pointed out weak areas for black athletes also so thats obviously not superiority.
No non west african descended male has ever run a 100 meter dash under ten seconds..... dozens of men of west african descent men have done it living in Africa, Europe, Americas....no matter what country they live in or who has trained them only men of west african descent have done it.
This has been the case over a period of decades at this point.
Training and coaching does not explain it because the same training has not allowed others to do it. The same training that a much larger group of non west african descended men have made use of and so far been unable to do it. While these men of west african descent have been doing it for decades now.
Dont get me wrong, I believe it will happen as training and nutrition continue to improve whites and asians etc will break the barrier. However with yesteryear and todays techniques still only black men can do this every year in the sport of sprinting.
It demands a useful explanation if the genetic makeup of men from this population is supposed to be excluded as valid a explanation for the phenomena.
There have been 100 meter world and olympic finals where regardless of what nation they are representing all 8 men are of west african descent.
Sprints To better understand the complex story behind this dramatic map, let's deconstruct the record book. Remember the last time a non-black set the men's world record in the 100-meter sprint? One has to go back to 1960, when German Armin Hary won the Olympic gold medal in 10.2 seconds. Today, the 100 meter distance is totally monopolized by blacks with West African roots. They are quicker out of the starting blocks and demonstrate blazing speed over short distances. Former "world's fastest human" Donovan Bailey clocked a mind-bending 27 miles per hour at the mid-point of his record-breaking race at the Atlanta Olympics.
There are no sprinters of note from Asia, even with more than 50 percent of the world's population, a Confucian and Tao tradition of discipline, and an authoritarian sports system in place in the most populous country, China. No white sprinter can be found on the list of 100-meter sprinters; the best time by a white, 10 seconds, ranks more than 200th on the all-time list. Dozens of blacks, every one with a West African ancestry, have cracked the 10-second barrier, but no sprinter of any other race. For top black sprinters, it's an every-meet occurrence.
All of the 32 finalists in the last four Olympic men's 100-meter races are of West African descent. The likelihood of that happening based on population numbers alone-blacks from that region, now living around the globe, represent approximately 8 percent of the world's population-is 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001 percent.
This is talk about a group having an advantage in one very small area....this is not generalized athletic superiority across the board.
What have scientists documented? 'Evolution has shaped body types and in part athletic possibilities,' says Joseph Graves Jr, an evolutionary biologist and author of The Emperor's New Clothes: Theories of Race at the Millennium.
"Don't expect an Eskimo to show up on an NBA court or a Watusi to win the world weightlifting championship. Genes play a major role," adds Graves, himself an African American Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.
I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.
Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: There have been 100 meter world and olympic finals where regardless of what nation they are representing all 8 men are of west african descent.
Could it be more social than genetic? Growing up as a kid we mostly play running games football, basketball, freeze, you're it and more.
Later when I had white friends the games were socially different. Board games, rockets, model planes and cars and more.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
quote:Originally posted by blackman:
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: There have been 100 meter world and olympic finals where regardless of what nation they are representing all 8 men are of west african descent.
Could it be more social than genetic? Growing up as a kid we mostly play running games football, basketball, freeze, you're it and more.
Later when I had white friends the games were socially different. Board games, rockets, model planes and cars and more.
That cant account for every running record being held by an athlete of african ancestry...which is the case.
That also cant account for blacks of west african ancestry being the only link among these guys of various cultural/national backgrounds with various different training techniques and dietary schemes.....the link for the sprinters is one single thing......west african ancestry.
the most common (public) explanation for this phenomenon is that blacks are socialized to excel at these events. Really? You mean to say that out of a country of approximately 260 million, where blacks make up only 12% of the population, in which there are 5-6 times more whites than blacks, that there are no white guys who excel at these activities? Furthermore, you never see an Asian (American or otherwise) competing in the higher echelon of these sports. Nor do you see any Hispanics or Latinos in these events. Granted, socialization may explain, in part, the apparent dominance of blacks in football or basketball, but this explanation is sorely inadequate when it comes to running.
Everyone can run, and it doesn't matter whether you are in China, Russia, or the US You don't need any special equipment and it doesn't require any specialized skills. Because of the ubiquity of running, one would expect somewhat proportional representation among all races or groups of people in world class competition (e.g., Olympics). That, of course, is based on the premise that all races have equal capacities for running fast. Yet, the reality is that one group, blacks, win nearly every sprint race. Whites will on occasion win (Valeri Borzov of the former Soviet Union won the 100m and 200m dash at the 1972 Olympics). However, Asians will, in our humble opinion, never be competitive with black Americans in world class sprinting. The idea that blacks are socialized to excel in sprints is disputable in that many of these black athletes come from countries other than the United States. Are blacks from the United Kingdom, the Caribbean, and West Africa also "socialized" to run fast?
In other sports we can talk of access, finances and socialization. Running is something universal and simple across the world. There are far, far more white sprinters in the USA than black ones in HS track.....the black ones of west african ancestry rise to the top of american sprinting invariably and have all the sprint records despite blacks being only 12-13% of the population.
39 years ago jim hines broke the 10 second barrier.......someone explain how in all those yaers later ONLY BLACK MALES OF WEST AFRICAN ANCESTRY have been able to duplicate that feat. Even with all kinds of drugs being used in the sport still only those males of west african ancestry have done it.
For 20 years East Germany failed to produce a single sub-10-sec. runner despite handpicking its most athletic children, nurturing them with the best coaching and pumping them with steroids.
I'm open to useful suggestions outside of the genetic one.....I just have not seen one yet.....males of west african ancestry arent the only guys with good coaching who work intensely hard to run fast.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Obenga, I noticed you pointed out the West African athletes but what about those from East Africa like the Kenyan runners?
Posted by blackman (Member # 1807) on :
Djehuti, Are the East Africans better because of higher elevation? Higher elevation has less air and the heart and lungs must work more effeciently. I've heard that before
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Obenga, I noticed you pointed out the West African athletes but what about those from East Africa like the Kenyan runners?
I made the point of point out population because it's important....as i said in an earlier post in the thread, the sprint phenomena is a specific trait we see with the west african population so it's obviously not a "black" thing, it's a west african thing.
Science certainly does not support the popular notion that Kenyans prevail in distance running because they train harder or run huge distances as kids - myths frequently peddled by the media.
For every Kenyan athlete who runs 100 miles a week, there are others who get along on 30, and did not regularly run extraordinary distances as children. 'I lived right next door to school,' laughs Kenyan-born Wilson Kipketer, world 800m record holder. 'I walked, nice and slow.'
Though individual success is indeed largely about opportunity and 'fire in the belly', when it comes to the patterns that we see in sports, genetic traits proscribe possibility. While a driven Kenyan could potentially transform himself into a decent sprinter in spite of having the ideal genetically endowed body type of a distance runner, thousands of years of evolution have left a distinct footprint.
'Kenyans and other East Africans are born with a high number of slow-twitch fibers,' notes Saltin, who outlined his widely-embraced findings in a cover story, 'Muscles and Genes', in Scientific American last year2. The bio-cultural epicenter for world-class distance running - where evolutionary factors and social conditions come together in a feedback loop - is the Great Rift Valley adjacent to Lake Victoria.
This is home to the Kalenjin, a loosely named population of 1.5 million people, who win almost 40% of major international distance events. One tiny district, the Nandi, with only 500,000 people - one-twelve-thousandth of the planet's population - sweeps an unfeasible 20% of such races.
While Kenyans and other East Africans hold more than 60% of the worlds top endurance times, athletes of West African ancestry, including most North American, British and Caribbean blacks, are among the world's worst distance runners. The ectomorphic body type so common among East Africans is not very common in whites and is almost non-existent in those with roots in West Africa.
Then what about Andes and Himalaya folk? Are there track records for them that would bear out elevation and thin air as the factors? Or is the plataeu not the mountain that does it?
quote:Originally posted by blackman: Djehuti, Are the East Africans better because of higher elevation? Higher elevation has less air and the heart and lungs must work more effeciently. I've heard that before
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
There was a news article I read a while back that talked about how some people from the Ethiopian highlands have physiologically adapted to high altitudes.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by blackman:
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.
I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.
Yes.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.''
Yes.
And surely genes are the constructing agent in this short stature.
The last time I checked genes hang out in the DNA. Since genes run the show (at least scientists say they do) from the ground floor up then how can it be they are excluded as if they are the bad guys in this equation. No, they aren't the bad guys, sociological mismanagement of understanding is.
Posted by Yom (Member # 11256) on :
I think that Ethiopian highlanders may actually have an advantage genetically, as well as from extra "training" from having lived their whole lives at high-altitude, low-oxygen environments, plus the value placed on running as a sport.
(Djehuti, I think I know the study you are thinking of, and I was going to cite it here anyway)
Andeans have higher % of oxygen saturation in hemoglobin and hemoglobin concentration (higher percent of hemoglobin molecules saturated w/Oxygen and more molecules), which should help, but I guess there isn't the tradition for the sport there (although you'd think the tradition of Incan mail runners would carry over), which has a significant effect. Tibetans have slightly higher hemoglobin concentrations when living above 4000m, but not below this level, although they do have inheritable (unlike Andeans) higher-oxygen saturation levels. Their main adaptation is taking more involuntary breaths per minute, which I don't think would help as much in running when you're going to need more oxygen than involuntary breathing provides.
Note that this higher rate of absorption is depressed at native altitudes, so that saturation levels are actually much lower among Tibetans and Andeans than native sea-level inhabitants. Ethiopian highlanders are different in that they still have sea-level levels of saturation at high altitudes (3530m). What allows this hasn't been found yet, but chances are it's genetic, although it could just be conditioned.
But there are millions of ectomorphic types in West Africa--especially those groups that live in the Savana and Sahel regions--as in Northern Nigeria, Cameroon, Mali, Chad, Niger, Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, etc. Maybe if the training conditions are right there could be succesful distance runners coming from those areas. Sudan and Senegal, by the way, have produced a few noted runners at the 400-800 metre distance.
I think distance running has to do with relative lightness of weight and relatively long extremities--as in thighs and legs.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
quote:Originally posted by lamin: Obenga,
But there are millions of ectomorphic types in West Africa--especially those groups that live in the Savana and Sahel regions--as in Northern Nigeria, Cameroon, Mali, Chad, Niger, Senegal, Gambia, Guinea, etc. Maybe if the training conditions are right there could be succesful distance runners coming from those areas. Sudan and Senegal, by the way, have produced a few noted runners at the 400-800 metre distance.
I think distance running has to do with relative lightness of weight and relatively long extremities--as in thighs and legs.
It's not that west africans dont run distance....they do. They simply are no good at it. The 400-800 is not really a distance race....lets see a west african show up in the 3000m steeple chase or the 5000 thousand metres.
Not gonna happen.....they can run it but not at an elite level, not even good enough to make a international championship final.
It's not from lack of opportunity.....they have the same opportunity with distance races as they do with the sprints.....they simply are not configured to do well in a 10,000 metre race.
Maybe there are some groups in remote/rural western africa who can become great disatnce runners, we know africa is so very genetically diverse, however we aint seen 'em yet.
Have there been any west african descended blacks at all anywhere who have been great at real distance running.....I mean can you produce one solid west african descended runner at 3000 metre distances and upward of that....One!
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f:
quote:Willing Thinker:
quote:Black man:
''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.''
Yes.
And surely genes are the constructing agent in this short stature.
Well yes, that and diet.
quote:Grumnam:
The last time I checked genes hang out in the DNA.
What does this have to do with anything?
quote: Since genes run the show (at least scientists say they do) from the ground floor up then how can it be they are excluded as if they are the bad guys in this equation.
I get what you're saying.
In response to European genetics being allegedly behind their success in swimming and power lifting, blackman said it has more to do with the height, which confused you.
quote: No, they aren't the bad guys, sociological mismanagement of understanding is.
Yes, that (racism) is the bad guy.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
'Box'' says,
''I get what you're saying.
''In response to European genetics being allegedly behind their success in swimming and power lifting, blackman said it has more to do with the height, which confused you.''
The confusion is yours, not mine. Blackman said ''short in height'' as if there is no explanation for the short in height which is none other than genetics. I said genetics produces it. It does. It may be painful to accept but I have no control over that.
By the way, the genetic information has already been encoded. I'm no geneticist but I have yet to see information that says diet will produce a seven footer from two short-statured people. If this happens there undoubtedly is some precursor genetic information in the background to offer it without the input of diet.
Posted by AFRICA I (Member # 13222) on :
quote:From an American in Texas:A few generations of this and there would be some fast chinese running around the continent trying to keep away from the tigers. No mystery as to why Africans are faster.
I had a good laugh...
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f:
quote:Willing Thinker sed:
'Box'' says,
''I get what you're saying.
''In response to European genetics being allegedly behind their success in swimming and power lifting, blackman said it has more to do with the height, which confused you.''
The confusion is yours, not mine.
...to the contrary...
quote: Blackman said
Yes, blackman said. Not I.
You should ask Blackman what he meant.
So you think he meant to imply...
quote: ''short in height'' as if there is no explanation for the short in height which is none other than genetics.
Ofcourse genetics is involved. But you quoted me, as if I had implied such. As if I implied that it isn't involved. I didn't, that's where you got confused.
I just agreed it had to do with height, implying it does not have to do with a black vs. white vs. "chinese" 'race' (which we know don't exist biologically because of the massive overlap in human-gene variation).
About genes:
The vast majority of genetic variation is within the races, not in between them, therefore making "race" irrelevant.
So yes, obviously, it has more to do with height.
Are all 'blacks'/africans and 'whites'/europeans taller than asians? Hmmm... say I don't know. Why not ask Yao Ming, that big dude from Rush Hour 3, or the Pygmies?
If that's what Blackman was saying.
Like I said, ask him.
quote:diet
...about diet, again, yes genetics do dictate what you get to my knowledge, but diet affects height as well. - That's all I was saying if there was a mis-understanding.
Ps: What do you mean by all the talk of hurt feelings?
I'm cool with my 5'10" stature.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Originally posted by Obenga:
''Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.''
Black man added:
''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.
Willing Thinker said in response: ''Yes.''
I see my error was in seeing your single word reply as an endorsement of the entire paragraph.
When Blackman said ''...more to do with height and strength'', this seemingly denies genetics particularly when Obenga's comment said more to do with genetics.
''I just agreed it had to do with height, implying it does not have to do with a black vs. white vs. "chinese" 'race' (which we know don't exist biologically because of the massive overlap in human-gene variation).''
Yet it does have something to do with those groups you just mentioned. How can they be separated from the context of athletics. You will recall there are no Chinese power lifters in the olympics; you will also recall the context of the other groups when athletics was mentioned. It has nothing to do with ''massive overlap.'' This overlap you refer to is human gene variation.
''So yes, obviously, it has more to do with height.'', which is already determined genetically.
When you ask me about the ''hurt feelings'' this is a reference to those who deny genetics are involved in all aspects of humanity that I can see from the literature. So some who will deny athletic superiority in some groups will deny the genetic basis because they feel it is a short jump for the racists to say something to the effect ''we told you so'' in other areas of endeavor. So yes, it is painful to some when they hear genetics in any use.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: Originally posted by Obenga:
''Genetics is probably the reason Europeans dominate in power lifting and swimming.....there are probably all kinds of athletic events that will give some populations an advantage over others.''
Black man added:
''I think it has more to due with height and strength. Work=(Force)x(Distance) All power lifters are short in height. They have to perform less work. We will probably never see a tall power lifter unless he/she is a freak of nature.
Willing Thinker said in response: ''Yes.''
Oh yeah, gotcha. I forgot about Obenga's initial post and did not bother to go back to it.
quote:Yet it does have something to do with those groups you just mentioned.
Not really, I notice boxers/fighters coming from certain areas do better than others, compared to whole "races". Same thing, certain areas in the U.S. are tougher than others.
Not Asian Black or White.
quote:You will recall there are no Chinese power lifters
Like there were no Asian or female trombone players in the past? I recall a story about bias against one girl, but I can't remember who.
When you ask me about the ''hurt feelings'' this is a reference to those who deny genetics are involved
Genes are what make us. Who would deny that?
quote:"hurt feelings", this is a reference to those who deny genetics are involved in all aspects of humanity
Well, genetics are "involved in all aspects of humanity" as much as atoms are "involved in all aspects of humanity". Atoms are what we're made of, are they not? However, many seemingly random outside influences affect us? Culture affects us.
Culture and stereotypes play a large part in in what we do and think, and how we do it.
Like the identity studies, that showed that when females and minorities didn't have to classify themselves as such before academic testing, they did better. One less reminder of who they were before a test.
Here are some supposedly black fields of finess:
beat-boxin & freestyling
Yet two of the most awsome beat boxers I know of are a Jewish boy
Oh really? Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
The Asian boys (Korean?) with the basketballs was interesting. However, I fail to see the relevance here. Most people worldwide can make a decent stab at learning a musical instrument, mimicking, etc. It isn't the same as some groups handling hundreds of pounds or running many, many miles or sprinting short distances with blazing speed.
When I was in Japan in the early 60s in the miltary I had the occasion to visit a nightclub and had my very first experience with Japanese women singing a 'spitting image' of some early R&B girl group tunes. At my young age it never occured to me they couldn't do it but I was amazed at the nearly same sound. The only thing I saw ''out of place'' was the sumo wrestlers. Now, giving a little ground on the diet thing it seems to me these guys eat three cakes instead of two so in this sense you may be right on diet but only in the sense of gorging. I'm thinking these guys were taller than the average Japanese at that time but the competitive spirit drove them to the limit on the eating routine. However, they aren't built for speed or lifting heavy weights so the differences remain as noted.
By the way, thus far on the links, I haven't seen an Asian Spud Webb NBA-type dunking the basketball. Spud Webb, from 20 years ago, at 5'6'' could do just that. Not only that he won a particular year's dunking competition.
I'll check out the other links later.
By the way, have you really discarded your box as you note on your avatar? I had one a longggg time ago but realized it was of no use on page two. It stifles free thinking.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
^
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: The Asian boys (Korean?) with the basketballs was interesting. However, I fail to see the relevance here.
No point to that basketball thing.
quote: Most people worldwide can make a decent stab at learning a musical instrument, mimicking, etc. It isn't the same as some groups handling hundreds of pounds or running many, many miles or sprinting short distances with blazing speed.
Is it really not? That " Most people worldwide can make a decent stab at" it?
quote:When I was in Japan in the early 60s in the miltary I had the occasion to visit a nightclub and had my very first experience with Japanese women singing a 'spitting image' of some early R&B girl group tunes. At my young age it never occured to me they couldn't do it but I was amazed at the nearly same sound. The only thing I saw ''out of place'' was the sumo wrestlers. Now, giving a little ground on the diet thing it seems to me these guys eat three cakes instead of two so in this sense you may be right on diet but only in the sense of gorging. I'm thinking these guys were taller than the average Japanese at that time but the competitive spirit drove them to the limit on the eating routine. However, they aren't built for speed or lifting heavy weights so the differences remain as noted.
Sure.
quote:I'll check out the other links later.
cool.
quote:By the way, have you really discarded your box as you note on your avatar?
Si, senior.
Whatever gave you any doubt?
In regards to my stance, I don't really have one. Can't be categorized.
What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.
I'm just here to learn, and make obvservations, and not assume any thing to be true.
I admitted how I came up with the answer of genetic variation being responsable after a long while of holding the view that it is just hard work.
Although NOW recently, I have come to question the genetic variation view on the grounds that I don't see the same ahievement in SouthEast / East African areas though they have the greatest genetic variation of all groups.
So now I'm sayin again I don't know about the racial superiority thing - no, actually more - I do know about the racial superiority thing. It's bull, malarky, because certain groups seem to be productive over others, within the same "race".
For instance, Mysterycar may be out of shape and have a gut, while I on the other hand am running miles and lifting the irons. (I can't stop being silly at the end of my posts ... I need help)
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Willing Thinker {What Box} wrote:
''What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.''
Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts? Do you deny empiricism? It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis. I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.
On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet. Why is that. Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer. It has nothing to do with ''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.'' Don't forget, every person on this planet is mysteriously, neurally different. This is a fact.
And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family (peripherally related information). I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of. It is of no consequence to me whatever that some knucklehead makes inane comments about one group or another. There is no racist on this planet that can make me feel unsure of myself simply by making stereotypical comments. I don't lend myself to weak-minded foolishness. Then again that's just me. Others are not as strong.
Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting. I'm happy to inform you you can use someone else to prop up your ''... most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations ...'' Having said that this still doesn't address why some groups excel in some sports and others don't. Of course the short and easy answer is Michael Jordan says ''Eat your Wheaties.''
''I'm just here to learn, and make obvservations, and not assume anything to be true.''
Yes, that's my operating premise. Just as I say all the time, ''Things ain't what they seem.''
And I think I'm jealous of 5'10'', I'm only 5'9'' at 205 pounds. Can't play tennis anymore, my hip says no way. Posted by Tyrann0saurus (Member # 3735) on :
I thought the reason black people were better at running was their relatively longer limbs (remember those limb ratio studies?)...
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: I thought the reason black people were better at running was their relatively longer limbs (remember those limb ratio studies?)...
This was mentioned early in the thread......there is no one cause....several truths come together to equal an overall advantage in running fast.
If fear of finding some groups are superior to others in some areas bothers people they need to find a way to stop the clock because we are gonna find out some things like this and it's not just gonna be limited to running, swimming and power lifting.
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences that will result in one group being superior to another in some areas and inferior in other areas.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Yeah. Like Leucoderms superior to survive in temperate/cold climates.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
quote:Originally posted by Tyrann0saurus: I thought the reason black people were better at running was their relatively longer limbs (remember those limb ratio studies?)...
This was mentioned early in the thread......there is no one cause....several truths come together to equal an overall advantage in running fast.
If fear of finding some groups are superior to others in some areas bothers people they need to find a way to stop the clock because we are gonna find out some things like this and it's not just gonna be limited to running, swimming and power lifting.
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences that will result in one group being superior to another in some areas and inferior in other areas.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Cut to the chase. Who are the superior intelligence groups? Who are the inferior intelligence groups? Why, and how did they come to be so?
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
If fear of finding some groups are superior to others in some areas bothers people they need to find a way to stop the clock because we are gonna find out some things like this and it's not just gonna be limited to running, swimming and power lifting.
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences that will result in one group being superior to another in some areas and inferior in other areas.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
Cut to the chase. Who are the superior intelligence groups? Who are the inferior intelligence groups? Why, and how did they come to be so?
Are we sure intelligence has been defined yet?
Once we are done with that we need to define how many types of intelligences there are.
Then we would need space aliens to come down with non-bias tests for each intelligence and see what, if any, group comes up rated a little higher than other groups in most categories of intelligence.
IMO if all that did happen we wouldnt come up with anything that is divded by social concepts of race......but something more like the Ashkenazi Jews scenario which is probably a de facto selective breeding program over 1200 years long and running.....selecting for certain mental traits.
But they are not a race, they are a specific culture. I certainly think we could find more of that for certain intellectual traits among groups of people......as we can with other inherited traits besides intelligence.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: Willing Thinker
quote:{What Box} wrote:
''What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.''
Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?
If by “facts” you mean stats,
Who’s denying sporting stats? Do you support the notion of race? Are you arguing sporting facts do?
Did you know stats can be misleading and lie, without the full story?
Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?
Djehuti get outta there YOU’RE BRAIN IS FRYIN! Please.
How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters. That’s why I find such a conclusion based on such flat evidence (though in real life there are variables) to be to little to simply
believe. So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.
quote: It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis.
It doesn’t take much to turn on the TV and see records being shattered, or to have seen golf as an exclusively European sport before the likes of Tiger Woods (Blasian).
quote: I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.
And? Who’s being idealistic?
quote:On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so
(… and come from the same ancestors…)
quote:no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet.
Point?
quote:Why is that.
Because.
Actually, it was likely the reverse in the case of the modern notion of “race” – propaganda terminology for the moral psyche and / or economic gain. Like slavery, for instance.
They had to rationalize a reason to exploit others in such a way. They also had to justify reasons for the mistreatment of other peoples around the world.
quote:Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.
Surely this has nothing to do with anything.
Some people just don’t see it you’re way.
Racialists even declared Japeth, Ham, and Shem to be “different races”, though brothers, contradicting the vary idea.
quote:''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.''
…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.
quote:Don't forget, every person on this planet is mysteriously, neutrally different. This is a fact.
Yes, we all have different spirits, that is a must.
So what’s the point here?
Is “People are different” ‘sposed ta equal black and white race are different because if so, you’re mistaken.
“People are different” means individuals are different. Though different groups of people do share certain similarities. (Europeans with Europeans, Africans with Africans)
quote:And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family
Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
LOL!
You goin off on a rant again?
quote: I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of.
And? We’re on another topic, here.
quote: It is of no consequence to me whatever that some knucklehead makes inane comments about one group or another.
Speaking of inane, <chuckle>, there used to be a poster here (who can remain nameless ) who constantly posted the most inane material of all posters, ever to come here( which shuold make it clear as to who I am refering to ). He was so good at getting attention.
Anyway, I did not know it at the time, but there are many fools out there like that. Fools all over the net, in AmericanRennisance, here, Dodona, Stormfront, etc.
Anyway, I stopped caring for them. The only thing I then cared about was the psychological state of many non white people(mainly black people). Many of whom are worse off than white racists, themselves.
But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.
I feel it weak. As if you have let them beat you into not caring about them.
Now I’m for racial unity.
I consider THAT the realest position.
quote:There is no racist on this planet that can make me feel unsure of myself simply by making stereotypical comments. I don't lend myself to weak-minded foolishness.
Good, that’s possibly one less brotha I have to worry about. Others aren’t so informed.
quote:Then again that's just me. Others are not so strong…
Which is why I’m here.
quote:Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting.
Depends on what you mean by “obvious differences”. If you’re referring to those stats, scroll up and reread my post.
quote:''... most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations ...'' Having said that this still doesn't address why some groups excel in some sports and others don't.
Yes, it was just my response to (yet another one of) your distraction of asking me if I had really stepped out of “the box”. I simply told you that given my observations my beliefs seem to be quite A normal…
quote:Obenga:
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences
…or to assume that we as a “race” haven’t possessed the mental tools to survive the whole time, and still in this modern day have not fully exploited the human mind to its full potential.
To me it ain't about believing, it's a matter of evidence.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Obenga: Are we sure intelligence has been defined yet?
; Always on top of things aren't we...
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: Willing Thinker
quote:{What Box} wrote:
''What's funny is my stance is the rarist - most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations - like you - and don't even think to challege the idea of race - as can be seen on many Yahoo_Answers! posts.''
Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?
If by “facts” you mean stats,
Who’s denying sporting stats? Do you support the notion of race? Are you arguing sporting facts do?
Did you know stats can be misleading and lie, without the full story?
Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?
Djehuti get outta there YOU’RE BRAIN IS FRYIN! Please.
How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters. That’s why I find such a conclusion based on such flat evidence (though in real life there are variables) to be to little to simply
believe. So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.
quote: It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis.
It doesn’t take much to turn on the TV and see records being shattered, or to have seen golf as an exclusively European sport before the likes of Tiger Woods (Blasian).
quote: I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.
And? Who’s being idealistic?
quote:On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so
(… and come from the same ancestors…)
quote:no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet.
Point?
quote:Why is that.
Because.
Actually, it was likely the reverse in the case of the modern notion of “race” – propaganda terminology for the moral psyche and / or economic gain. Like slavery, for instance.
They had to rationalize a reason to exploit others in such a way. They also had to justify reasons for the mistreatment of other peoples around the world.
quote:Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.
Surely this has nothing to do with anything.
Some people just don’t see it you’re way.
Racialists even declared Japeth, Ham, and Shem to be “different races”, though brothers, contradicting the vary idea.
quote:''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.''
…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.
quote:Don't forget, every person on this planet is mysteriously, neutrally different. This is a fact.
Yes, we all have different spirits, that is a must.
So what’s the point here?
Is “People are different” ‘sposed ta equal black and white race are different because if so, you’re mistaken.
“People are different” means individuals are different. Though different groups of people do share certain similarities. (Europeans with Europeans, Africans with Africans)
quote:And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family
Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
LOL!
You goin off on a rant again?
quote: I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of.
And? We’re on another topic, here.
quote: It is of no consequence to me whatever that some knucklehead makes inane comments about one group or another.
Speaking of inane, <chuckle>, there used to be a poster here (who can remain nameless ) who constantly posted the most inane material of all posters, ever to come here( which shuold make it clear as to who I am refering to ). He was so good at getting attention.
Anyway, I did not know it at the time, but there are many fools out there like that. Fools all over the net, in AmericanRennisance, here, Dodona, Stormfront, etc.
Anyway, I stopped caring for them. The only thing I then cared about was the psychological state of many non white people(mainly black people). Many of whom are worse off than white racists, themselves.
But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.
I feel it weak. As if you have let them beat you into not caring about them.
Now I’m for racial unity.
I consider THAT the realest position.
quote:There is no racist on this planet that can make me feel unsure of myself simply by making stereotypical comments. I don't lend myself to weak-minded foolishness.
Good, that’s possibly one less brotha I have to worry about. Others aren’t so informed.
quote:Then again that's just me. Others are not so strong…
Which is why I’m here.
quote:Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting.
Depends on what you mean by “obvious differences”. If you’re referring to those stats, scroll up and reread my post.
quote:''... most people who don't assume egalitarian or racist views to be correct jump to the conclusion of inequalities between "races" and populations ...'' Having said that this still doesn't address why some groups excel in some sports and others don't.
Yes, it was just my response to (yet another one of) your distraction of asking me if I had really stepped out of “the box”. I simply told you that given my observations my beliefs seem to be quite A normal…
quote:Obenga:
It's not intelligent to believe groups adapted to different enviroments to survive around the world and yet those adaptations gave us no differences
…or to assume that we as a “race” haven’t possessed the mental tools to survive the whole time, and still in this modern day have not fully exploited the human mind to its full potential.
To me it ain't about believing, it's a matter of evidence.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Right out of the gate I think what is important is when quoting to bolster one's argument that person should keep paragraph context/continuity in mind.
When I said this:
''Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?''
Willing Thinker then said: ''If by “facts” you mean stats.''
Then in the same breath you say: Who’s denying sporting stats?''
If your intent is to argue statistics then do so in context, not in this argument. You set yourself up to win an argument without my participation.
More from Willing Thinker: ''Do you support the notion of race?''
A more appropriate question will be why are you asking me to repeat myself when you already have access to my view on it above on this very thread?
Thinker: ''Are you arguing sporting facts do?''
Why of course some groups perform far better than others in sports. I said this already. You're in a state of denial.
''Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?''
Continuity is... where? By the way, why are you asking me to provide something you don't have a clue on?
''How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters.''
Why are you asking me to reassign myself to a known fact?
Thinker again: ''So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.''
No. Facts. Do me a favor Thinker, start at the beginning of my post... again, because you read it the first time then cut and pasted so you had access twice. So why are you missing what I said throughout?
I said: ''It doesn't take much to turn on the television the past 40 years and see who wins and have won some olympic events on a routine basis.''
Thinker knows the truth of discernment? ''It doesn’t take much to turn on the TV and see records being shattered, or to have seen golf as an exclusively European sport before the likes of Tiger Woods (Blasian).''
Question for you: Do you think power lifters and sprinters can be taught the game of golf? I know they can. Do you think you can turn a Phil Mickelson or a Tiger Woods into a world class sprinter (or powerlifter)?
I said: ''I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.''
Thinker replied with: ''And? Who’s being idealistic?''
Well you sure aren't being realistic.
From me: ''On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so ... ''
Thinker interjected with:
(… ''and come from the same ancestors''…)
Careful, you may irritate some tacking on that ''s'' at the end of the word.
''...no, in this sense there certainly are no races. Doesn't take that much to figure out this one. What does take some figuring however is the power of phenotypical expression can induce some members of some societies to grapple with the existence of it. This isn't some imaginary extrapolation; phenotype does this to some people on this planet.''
Thinker wrote: ''Point?''
If you are agreeing with the above then I can see why you said ''point?'' If not, then read it again to see how realism is played out.
From me: ''Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.''
Willing Thinker: ''Surely this has nothing to do with anything.''
Oh but it does. It's easy for you to say that because you're an idealist so as a result of this idealism you're blinded by it.
Thinker offered: Some people just don’t see it you’re way.''
No kidding!
This isn't my quote but it works.
''if people only knew how closely we are related as a species.''
This is assuming that one major group accepts it in its entirety. That's whay I said this above''... phenotypical expression ...''
Thinker: ''…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.''
Easily see? Really?
When I said ''neurally'' Thinker said in response:
''Yes, we all have different spirits, that is a must.
''So what’s the point here?''
Then you're admitting to my realism, not your idealism. However your ''that is a must'' means... what? Is this one in a religious or scientific sense?
I posted: ''And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family.''
...and Thinker said: ''Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
''LOL!
''You goin off on a rant again?''
Sorry you can't keep (peripheral) context in just a couple of posts.
Me again: ''I can't take away the useless views one of them may be caught in the grips of.''
Thinker again: ''And? We’re on another topic, here.''
No we aren't. On the other hand if you don't know how to admit to context, then...
Thinker again: But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.''
Can I get an amen up in here. Did you did intend to say race?
Thinker again: ''Now I’m for racial unity.
I consider THAT the realest position.''
I think I get your play on ''realest.'' However, if that wasn't your intent then you are an idealist.
Almost to the end; my stuff: Which brings me back to this from you. You seem to think just because I see obvious differences on a sporting platform, brought about by observation on a years long basis, that this somehow equates to inserting racial superiority in a classroom setting.''
...then Thinker posted: ''Depends on what you mean by “obvious differences”. If you’re referring to those stats, scroll up and reread my post.''
My ''obvious differences'' have already been explained and it still has nothing to do with statistics.
I tried to delete (for you) that ''statistic'' portion of your post but I knew it couldn't be done (all along).
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Nice weasling!
No selective breeding by Ashkenazi Jews just cross generational Talmud study which involves several varieties of memorization and logic. But Russians in general rank the same in intelligence (and we damn well know what that is, we use it on this forum every day, at least many of us try to) whether they be Jewish or not.
Likewise Nigerians have proven themselves of high intelligence (don't know which if any specific ethnies other than southerners in general) by being the cream of Britains higher educational crop outranking the supposedly superior sizewise and convolution far east Asian brain -- not to mention ol' Emeagwali (sp) the computer brain in tandem himself.
Sorry, no space aliens or other space oddities need be sarcastically invoked in this matter.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga: Cut to the chase. Who are the superior intelligence groups? Who are the inferior intelligence groups? Why, and how did they come to be so?
Are we sure intelligence has been defined yet?
Once we are done with that we need to define how many types of intelligences there are.
Then we would need space aliens to come down with non-bias tests for each intelligence and see what, if any, group comes up rated a little higher than other groups in most categories of intelligence.
IMO if all that did happen we wouldnt come up with anything that is divded by social concepts of race......but something more like the Ashkenazi Jews scenario which is probably a de facto selective breeding program over 1200 years long and running.....selecting for certain mental traits.
But they are not a race, they are a specific culture. I certainly think we could find more of that for certain intellectual traits among groups of people......as we can with other inherited traits besides intelligence.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
I don't know where this thread has gone. I won't even bother to keep up. But what do you guys make of racist claims as to why blacks haven't mastered golf (before Tiger Woods) or why blacks are not good swimmers??
And yes, even I have heard of the nonsense myself. Blacks haven't mastered golf because of poor short coordination muscles or some rubbish or other and that blacks aren't good swimmers because of some crap about density or they can't float(?) LOL
Sports and racial psuedo-science. Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
nice weasling!
No selective breeding by Ashkenazi Jews just cross generational Talmud study which involves several varieties of memorization and logic.
"Another theory suggests that there was selective breeding for Talmudic scholarship. The are two fatal problems with this hypothesis: first, it was wealth that caused increased fertility, not scholarship. Second, there weren't very many rabbis, certainly less than one percent of the population.. A selective force that only affects a fraction of a percent of the population can never be strong, can never cause significant change in tens of generations. One that that affects the top 10 or 20% of the population can."
Likewise Nigerians have proven themselves of high intelligence (don't know which if any specific ethnies other than southerners in general) by being the cream of Britains higher educational crop outranking the supposedly superior sizewise and convolution far east Asian brain -- not to mention ol' Emeagwali (sp) the computer brain in tandem himself.
Sorry, no space aliens or other space oddities need be sarcastically invoked in this matter.
Not sure how any of this is related to what I said ....I'm not weasling if u have a theory of intelligence I'd be pleased to read it. I believe in the multiple intelligence theory and cant tell you what you asked in the form u asked or probably in anyway....I just gave u my opinion call it what u will.....but wheres yours?
I dont believe in any superiority as you posed the question and I said that....now in a particualr area I wouldnt be surprised to find out some group had an edge over another as a result of thousands of years of selection for it.....again whats your take on it?
The stuff about the Nigerians sounds excellent, be even more pleased if you post that info..Thanx.
As usual Chinese youngsters, though relatively few in number (2,226), had the highest attainment - 79.3% getting five good GCSEs.
The figure for Indian pupils was 71.4%.
I am happy to find out you have an update on these figures from 2006 showing Nigerians in britain top these two groups out.....sweet, pass the info along, the Nigerian parents of my pupils will enjoy this news as much as I will. October is black history month here so I'll squeeze that into the lesson plan.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
This could become a Strom thread but. .. . moderators beware make sure it is kept clean. . .. This may go up to 10 pages.
West Africans and their decendents making better sprinters because of genes. Read someplace that Africans have denser bones therefore they are heavier even if they look comparatively the same size and that can be an advantage in certain activities. Read also NASA study finds blacks may do better in space because of bone structure. Europeans and Asians are lighter so they do better in certain activities. Swimming, Xgames type sports come to mind. So “hitting” sports will favor a “denser” person. Also agree with the muscle/fat ratio study. Look around. . . . the AVERAGE black youth(male/female) has more muscle definition than their counter parts. Of course there are exceptions. Maybe that’s why some of the bros favour a “supple” female .
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I don't know where this thread has gone. I won't even bother to keep up. But what do you guys make of racist claims as to why blacks haven't mastered golf (before Tiger Woods) or why blacks are not good swimmers??
And yes, even I have heard of the nonsense myself. Blacks haven't mastered golf because of poor short coordination muscles or some rubbish or other and that blacks aren't good swimmers because of some crap about density or they can't float(?) LOL
Sports and racial psuedo-science.
^Tell me about it. But as to the golf part, there is also DJ Singh .
quote:Originally posted by xxyman:
West Africans and their decendents making better sprinters because of genes. Read someplace that Africans have denser bones therefore they are heavier even if they look comparatively the same size and that can be an advantage in certain activities.
Yes, it was posted in this thread. Many people also seemingly fail to grasp the meaning of "on average".
quote:xxy man:
luecoderms [white people] are better suited for colder weather
Actually, the purpose of their white skin is not for temperature. There is no prupose.
There is a reason, however, they lack melinan. They lack this because a greater lack of sun-light and vitamins, which cause melanin to be more of a setback than an asset.
So luecoderms hold an Advantage in darker climates, not colder ones.
There's a reason polar bears are black under their reflective /white fur. [Props go to Takruri for this little tid bit of knowledge.]
How humans have adapted to heat and the lack their of is in their bone-morphology.
So yes, different people have different advantages in different settings, some times, if that was the point of you're posting this.
Yes, what I accept is evidence.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Obenga,
Re Ashkenazis. Your theory might work only if the Ashkenazis practised polygamy and their choice of spouse was based males seeking out or arranged to be married with females of evident intellectual gifts.
1) First, the Ashkenazis did not practise polygamy and 2)males everywhere tend to choose their spouses based on "looks" and/or based on whether they would make compliant dutiful wives.
Ashkenazis have been dominat intellectually in the West and Russia mainly because they place high value on learning. So their intellectual status derives mainly from sociology.
And by the way--for whatever it's worth[I don't go for IQ tests as a means of testing innate intelligence, given the great vagaries of sociological culture--the IQ of Israel has been tested at 95.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
^ great point above, lamin
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: When I said this:
''Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?''
Willing Thinker then said: ''If by “facts” you mean stats.''
Then in the same breath you say: Who’s denying sporting stats?''
What's not to get?
You asked how you can dispute "sporting facts".
I said if by "facts" you mean stats, I'm not denying any. In other words, I basically said, nice distraction.
quote:You set yourself up to win an argument without my participation.
This is a funnier comment than I think you know .
quote:Grumman6f6:
More from Willing Thinker: ''Do you support the notion of race?''
you already have access to my view on it above on this very thread?
Just making sure, because your answer leaves more to be desired.
Grumman said:
quote: "On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so no, in this sense there certainly are no races."
So you said, in the sense that we have intermingled, their are no races.
What about those who haven't?
What I'm getting at is do you believe in human sub-species?
quote: Grumman sez I sed:
''Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?''
Continuity is... where? By the way, why are you asking me to provide something you don't have a clue on?
quote:Willing Thinker actually posted:
Did you know stats can be misleading and lie, without the full story?
Did you know that for some reason or other, kids who move down South to attend college do worse than kids further North?
Ignoring the fact that I didn't ask you to provide but simply made a varifyable statement via stats and the fact that someone seems to think they possess mind readin powers to tell if I have a clue on something or other (without contradicting my statement):
What caught my eye is you said:
"Continuity is ...where?"
The irony... pretty hypocritical of you, mam or sir...right after telling me I should take things in context.
Before that I said "did you know stats can lie?" THAT's the bleepin context.
It is you who keeps loosing context... you seem to accuse others of what you do just like a certain former dude here...(the nameless one)
Follow closely:
quote: Looky here at what Grumman wrote here :
Thinker [wrote]: ''Are you arguing sporting facts do?''
Why of course some groups perform far better than others in sports. I said this already. You're in a state of denial.
ROFL!^ Talk about LOST!
Watch closely...
I, Willing W.B. Thinker said...:
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker:
If by “facts” you mean stats,
who’s denying sporting stats?
For those to slow I'm saying who is denying or challenging the validity of stats?
next,
quote:Do you support the notion of race? Are you arguing sporting stats do?
This translates to:
What is your arguement if you weren't saying I denied "stats"?
Are you somehow arguing that these sporting stats prove race exists?
And you then answer with a question completely way off!:
quote: * Examine closely * at what Grumman wrote here in response:
Why of course some groups perform far better than others in sports. I said this already. You're in a state of denial.
Broke it down to baby bits, we shuold have no problem here.
You know, this is getting so low-level, don't be surprised if I don't reply to ranting and raving (exposed as such above) in the future.
quote:"How about the fact most/all sprinters are black doesn’t mean all blacks are sprinters.''
Why are you asking me to reassign myself to a known fact?
Unlike you I don't think I have the psychic powers to know you comprehended that some black groups do better than at some sports. That's all.
quote:Thinker again: ''So for you, and other racial inequality advocates that’s what it comes down to: belief.''
Question for you: Do you think power lifters and sprinters can be taught the game of golf? I know they can. Do you think you can turn a Phil Mickelson or a Tiger Woods into a world class sprinter (or powerlifter)?
Interesting question (for once). I'll get back to you later on that.
quote:I said: ''I don't believe idealism is a valid position to hold in the present situation as we see it on this planet.''
Thinker replied with: ''And? Who’s being idealistic?''
Well you sure aren't being realistic.
Feel free to provide evidence by citation. Thanks.
quote:From me: ''On the ''race'' thing it seems to me that a majority of humans walking this planet are intermingled on a genetic basis so ... ''
Thinker interjected with:
(… ''and come from the same ancestors''…)
Careful, you may irritate some tacking on that ''s'' at the end of the word.
What do you mean.. to my knowledge our projenators were closely related, but not exactly an Adam and Eve type deal...
more like an Adam and Eves type deal, and later on at one point and Adams and Eve type deal.
quote:If you are agreeing with the above then I can see why you said ''point?'' If not, then read it again to see how realism is played out.
Whatever about the realism, what's the point of saying some people see races?
As I said, race is real, in the political sense anyway...
quote:Grumman sez he said:
''Surely the knowledge of the sameness internally isn't the answer.''
Willing Thinker: ''Surely this has nothing to do with anything.''
Yeah, lol.
quote:You're an idealist
So what. Label me if you will. It doesn't change anything for me. I honor an "idealist with my ideals more than one with yours.
quote:Grumman posted:
Thinker: ''…then they would more easily see just how silly this modern notion of ‘race is.''
Easily see? Really?
When I said ''neurally'' Thinker said in response:
''Yes, [...] ''So what’s the point here?'' Then you're admitting to my realism,
You are saying individuals are different, more so than races, which threatens not my point.
Cool
quote:However your ''that is a must'' means... what? Is this one in a religious or scientific sense?
Both, to me. Now that, is a belief of mine. Like your beliefs about races.
quote: Grum sed he posted: ''And no, I don't challenge a racist unless the racist stands in the way of me supporting my family.''
...and Thinker said: ''Hate to cut you off again, but what does this have to do with anything?
''LOL!
''You goin off on a rant again?''
Sorry you can't keep (peripheral) context in just a couple of posts.
My point is why talk about challeging a racist?
What, are you saying you'er a racist and I should disregard you?
quote: Gremlin sed:
Thinker again: But any who, I don’t consider it noble to not give a [hoot] about someone of another race.''
Can I get an amen up in here. Did you did intend to say race?
Yeah, and I've said it before. I usually put quotes on the word to signify it's erroneous traditional use.
Politically, there is such a thing.
quote:Grum:
Thinker again said: ''Now I’m for racial unity.
I consider THAT the realest position.''
^Damn right.
Ps: Sorry about your hip.
(That's why you should stay busy!)
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
One of the points I was making is that higher fat quantities favor a cold climate. That couple with a lighter skin is perfect adaptation. The drawback is these phenotypes don't do well in HOT climates and the "side effect" of their adaption is less muscle consequently less speed.
This may sound crazy ... but have anyone seen the blending in with nature of white skin, blonde hair, red-head during the winter months. Comparred to the bro and sista who don't "blend in" well. These bros will also have to do some serious running to get away from the snow/mountain lions. Either way(Afica/Europe/anerica) they need to run. Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by lamin: Obenga,
Re Ashkenazis. Your theory might work only if the Ashkenazis practised polygamy and their choice of spouse was based males seeking out or arranged to be married with females of evident intellectual gifts.
Why would they need to be polygamous?
Maybe selective pressure allows those with the selected trait to do well and have more children and those who arent as wealthy to have less children.......over time what do u get.
Lets forget this trait and look at tay Sachs...They practiced endogamy and whoever had the problem spread it within the group, a group that does not marry outside it's group a thousand years later they get this genetic disease in a much higher percentage than other groups.
Flip to today and now ashkenazi jews get screened to see if they have the trait, if they do they are told a match for them is undersireable.....is this not another kind of selective breeding?
Lets say NBA players only marry WNBA players....this goes on for 1200 years ...I think we would have a population of people who are above average with regard to height, reflexes and vertical leap.
I dont think it's outside the realm of possiblity that a group has lived under a set of conditions for hundreds/thousands of years and developed a trait ( not just physical traits )useful for survival there that groups not living under the set of conditions have not developed to such a degree.
Why is it so acceptable that black skin is an advantage in equitorial areas and light skin is not, yet mentally everywere humans have lived for thousands of years, no difference can be accepted in a certain small area of mental ability or performance.
Is this really a logical point of view?
From the start of this thread I've made it clear that I believe NO group will come up generally superior to another across the board....that doesnt mean in a specific area or activity some groups may do a little better than others. We see this all throughout the natural world, is it our arrogance that keeps us from thinking "well we are human and we are not subject to natures laws like all other living things on the planet!"
Make sense to me.....sure it's a slippery slope, but that doesnt mean you deny the truth of a thing because of the fear of where it may lead.....or in this case lead back too.
History tells us that no group is consistantly superior over all others over time......If there was one superior group of humans out there thousands of years of history would of revealed who these guys are.....I dont see 'em, does anyone else see 'em?
History has spoken already, there is nothing to worry about.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
I said: ''Do you think you can turn a Phil Mickelson or a Tiger Woods into a world class sprinter (or powerlifter)?''
To which Thinker replied with: ''Interesting question (for once). I'll get back to you later on that.''
Thank you Willing Thinker for participating in context. Your out of context ''stats'' morphed the dialog.
No need to lay on the floor laughing brother; the oxygen isn't where it's supposed to be.
And you're right, it needs to be ended.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Obenga,
I wrote that the Ashkenazi did not practise polygamy because on your thesis it would be those males with the required adaptive traits who would monopolise in terms of assorted mating--given their resource sets. That would be the most efficient way to spread a particular trait within a society.
And it's pure speculation that you assume that the Ashkenazi with the adaptive traits you assume had more offspring.
Your point about Tay Sachs is useful but Tay Sachs is not adaptive; it probably resulted from some mutation that affects less that 1% percentage of the Ashkenazi population in disease terms.
Your point about human intellect being variously distributed won't wash because the human cognitive apparatus(brain operations) is such that the same ability that it took for humans to create language and do cave paintings is the same ability that would produce the writer, the mathematician and the scientist.
Take the case of Einstein: none of his ancestors did anything of note and if you check his family tree you will see that the vast majority were non-literate nomads trekking all over Europe until the European Renaissance.
In the case of other traits(passive and active) there is a direct interaction with the environment but that's not the case with brain power, it was already there some 150,000 years ago--and more than enough to boot.
So if you take the offspring of 1000 Masai herders and acculturate them into Ashkenazi culture--you will get the same intellectual disposition.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Obenga,
As proof of my point consider the long-standing aristocratic families in Europe all the result of systematic assorted mating over the centuries. The adaptive traits for the males would be chivalry and brains while for the females "beauty" would be selected for.
But just check out the British Royal Family today plus their landed gentry kin. What do you see? Lazy, dull and intellectually challenged people who are not "beautiful" in the least--by any standard.
Posted by Obenga (Member # 1790) on :
I wrote that the Ashkenazi did not practise polygamy because on your thesis it would be those males with the required adaptive traits who would monopolise in terms of assorted mating
Lamin,
It's not my thesis... t's out there and debateable and any can read it...thats all I did...I read it and there is some logic behind it...u disgaree, hey thats OK.
what is your point of view or anyone elses for that matter.......are all groups of humans simply equal on any measure of physical or mental ability?
I'm interested to hear who has AN opinion one way or another.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
I by into intelligence being more of a cultural transmition.
I mean, that's just my perogative, living in an extremely diverse area with diverse ethnicities at diverse incomes.
When one changes another one's mind, and changes the way one thinks, and one does stuff,
one does things differently.
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: I said: ''Do you think you can turn a Phil Mickelson or a Tiger Woods into a world class sprinter (or powerlifter)?''
To which Thinker replied with: ''Interesting question (for once). I'll get back to you later on that.''
Thank you Willing Thinker for participating in context.
Sure thing.
quote:Your out of context ''stats'' morphed the dialog.
Whatever, I know I wasn’t the furthest out of context .
Anyway, hold on for my reply.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Obenga.
Well it all boils down in general to the individual but then there is the thing about averages. The "average" West African runs the shorter distances faster than the average West European--all things being equal.
The reasons for this may be the result of what one could call "contingent adaptation"--that is the chance combination of a number of adaptive traits in a particular environment.
So in terms of passive(pigmentation, hair form, etc. usually affects ~ 90-100% of the populations) and active(running and jumping abilities, e.g. affects a much smmaler precentage) there are human differentials but when it comes to cognitive capacities, all human groups have equal cognitive skills naturally because once the human brain evolved to the extent of creating human languages and acquiring the human ability to think abstractly there was no need for any further evolution--because the human ability to do cave paintings and make intricate jewelry could also be used to build pyramids and invent mathematics and do writing
To answer your question: all human groups are unequal when it comes to physical abilities and those who derive from Africa's environments would be on the average superior in this regard. The range of African body plans and structures makes this possible--all the adaptive equilibrium results from evolving in the environments of Africa.
But when it comes to mental ability all human groups are equal--on account of the nature of the human brain and its unique capacity for abstraction.
One Proof: All humans can easily learn to speak and write any human language[a trait unique to humans]--which is reflective of the neural structure of the human brain. Think of the equal human capacities for vision and hearing--all things being equal.
But again, as I said, it all boils down to the individual's unique stock of environmental adaptations and individual genetic(psychological and dispositional) make-up.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Willing Thinker said:
''I by into intelligence being more of a cultural transmition.'
It depends on precisely what you mean by intelligence. If you mean the human capacity in its simplest form is nothing more than an understanding and ability to translate every-day information between societies then yes, it is culturally transmitted. Conversely, if neural activity isn't at the high technology conceptualization stage then no.
Lamin says: ''... all human groups have equal cognitive skills naturally because once the human brain evolved to the extent of creating human languages and acquiring the human ability to think abstractly there was no need for any further evolution ...''
Progression of cognition isn't manifest the world over if evolution displays brain equalness as its goal from Lamin's point of view. If evolution produces a natural (linear) progression then abstraction and conceptualization shouldn't be an issue within any group.Yet it is an issue with some groups, but not some individuals within some groups, simply because some people don't have the capacity.
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Grumman,
Whatever differences that human groups demonstrate in terms of abstraction and conceptualization is easily explained by education--i.e. the transmission of intellectual skills.
Example: Europeans have been in Europe for at least 35,000 years yet they were taught reading and writing only in the last 2,000 years-- and only a very tiny minority as in the cases of Greece and Rome. But in the last 400 years their dominant classes have taken intellectual skills very seriously and have nurtured such more than any other groups. The result is that Europe and its settlements in the other continents are today responsible for some 80% of the world's intellectual output--in all areas.
My point is that according to your thesis "abstraction and conceptualization" would have been an issue for Europeans compared to the Ancient Egyptians and Kushites some 3,000 years ago but my point is that--that is not the case today--on account of a set of historically contingent reasons.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
The info I posted here a couple of years ago was on higher education acheivement not on form school children but fully mature adults.
Also the figures were across the board not ingroup. But even using ingroup form school children your source still shows something you neglected to share or else hastily overlooked:
quote: The girls from black African backgrounds did better than white boys: 56.1% getting five good GCSEs compared with 52.6%.
quote:Originally posted by Obenga:
Likewise Nigerians have proven themselves of high intelligence (don't know which if any specific ethnies other than southerners in general) by being the cream of Britains higher educational crop outranking the supposedly superior sizewise and convolution far east Asian brain -- not to mention ol' Emeagwali (sp) the computer brain in tandem himself.
The stuff about the Nigerians sounds excellent, be even more pleased if you post that info..Thanx.
As usual Chinese youngsters, though relatively few in number (2,226), had the highest attainment - 79.3% getting five good GCSEs.
The figure for Indian pupils was 71.4%.
I am happy to find out you have an update on these figures from 2006 showing Nigerians in britain top these two groups out.....sweet, pass the info along, the Nigerian parents of my pupils will enjoy this news as much as I will.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Lamin says: ''Whatever differences that human groups demonstrate in terms of abstraction and conceptualization is easily explained by education--i.e. the transmission of intellectual skills.''
Education as the driving force behind intellectual skills isn't the complete answer in my opinion. Certainly the education aspect plays a vital role as it stimulates further intellectual pursuits, but if the cognitive skills aren't there to begin with then education isn't the answer for some groups but individuals within who possess the intellectual skills beforehand. So education as a stand alone entity can't be the answer; it's just a motivator.
I agree with (most of) the below. Lamin: ''Example: Europeans have been in Europe for at least 35,000 years yet they were taught reading and writing only in the last 2,000 years-- and only a very tiny minority as in the cases of Greece and Rome. But in the last 400 years their dominant classes have taken intellectual skills very seriously and have nurtured such more than any other groups. The result is that Europe and its settlements in the other continents are today responsible for some 80% of the world's intellectual output--in all areas.''
You say the Europeans were 'taught' reading and writing. By whom? I'm simply curious. There is no sarcasm on my part. If they were taught all this in such short order where did the teachers go? Where did they come from? All I'm asking on this one is if something is to be learned then someone has to be the teacher; that's why I say intellectualism precedes education. How far back the predecessor is I don't have a clue.
Your ''that is not the case today'' should be perplexing to large groups of people considering the extremely short duration of the European appearance.
I believe I alluded to this fact on another thread a couple of weeks ago but only in a passing comment.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Grumman, with so many other interesting topics here, especially those concerned with the subject of ancient Egypt, why do you only write the couple of threads dealing specifically with "race"??
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Good point on the race question. It's like a magnet I guess.
That said, some members need to look in the mirror while discussing Egypt with all the bickering with what constitutes black.
My issue never has been whether Egypt was black at one time in its past. Mine is simply how all world-wide phenotypic expression evolved from a single group of humans in Africa to produce the tremendous variation we see today. My position, contrary to what some here may want to believe, has nothing, nothing to do with eurocentrism as I am a black American.
From what I understand codominance in allele expression is just what it says, no expression dominates the other. So how is it recessive phenotype alleles can be anywhere near this equation? In other words in order for recessive types to come about there has to be a mixing of the gene pool. Genetic drift, variation and mutation have nothing to do with it my view. Of course a PhD in genetics will say that's how it happened yet offering no compelling truth to how this business came into play, all the while using a number of qualifiers, e.g., ''it may be that'', or, ''it could have happened'', or ''it probably did happen'', maintaining political correctness for everyone and solving nothing. At the same time other PhDs as a rebuttle, in the same discipline will say ''it is very unlikely'' or ''the chance is astronomical'. And on and on it goes.
Where does this leave me. It seems plausible to me that there may have been other groups scattered throughout the earth, with origins independent of Africa even though the fossil record says no (I think). Otherwise it looks like this site is stuck with a creationist-type model of all humankind.
Finally, how many times doe one have to prove Ancient Egypt was Black?
Posted by lamin (Member # 5777) on :
Grumman,
The source of literacy in Europe is not indigenous. Recall that writing, reading, reflective thought began with the civilisations of Ancient Egypt-Kush and Mesopotamia. The Greeks acquired literacy and reflective thinking from the Ancient Egyptians and others like the Babylonians.
If we assume that the Greeks were Europeans--some see them though as a predominantly Eurasian(I have even read books that referred to the Greeks as "Orientals"--then it follows that the Greeks learned(hence there must have been tachers) their reading and writing skills from Africans and West Asians.
But even today in Europe and other places of European settlement very few people read books(I include the Christian Bible) so the business of keeping the flame alive is left to the intellectual classes--found mainly at universities aand reserach centres.
Proof: the vast majority of English people would rather prefer to buy a simple book with lots of pictures on a silly, intellectually low-wattage airhead like "Lady" Diana than a serious book on the life of Shakespeare or Isaac Newton.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Lamin wrote: ''Proof: the vast majority of English people would rather prefer to buy a simple book with lots of pictures on a silly, intellectually low-wattage airhead like "Lady" Diana than a serious book on the life of Shakespeare or Isaac Newton.'
It sure looks that way.
I see the absence of wonder all the time on television, e.g., ''What is Paris Hilton up to today and what kind of car does she drive.'' I can see this Paris thing if it was on Inside Edition or some other type show, but the local and national news? No wonder looks of bewilderment cross the average person's face when you ask them something historical.
You can't blame the stations I guess, they're afraid of losing their viewership. They take their lessons quite well from Stringer and Povich.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: ...Finally, how many times doe one have to prove Ancient Egypt was Black?
A very good question. Apparently the answer lies on the person or persons one is trying to prove it to. For those who are too caught up or rather submerged in Eurocentrism and white supremacy of course, there can be never enough times.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
What I mean by cultural transmition is NOT that intelligence is transmitted from a people to a people,
but it's like lamin said alot earlier, one's culture dtermines their intelligence.
I thought I had made an in-depth replay earlier, but I guess it's not here.
By the way, I subscribe to there being multiple intelligences that one can be good at.
Posted by Grumman f6f (Member # 14051) on :
Willing Thinker said, and I agree: ''By the way, I subscribe to there being multiple intelligences that one can be good at.''
That's what I'm talkin' 'bout. Can I get an amen on this one.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}: but it's like lamin said alot earlier, one's culture dtermines their intelligence.
I hate to bring this thread up again, but as to the premise above, would there not be a circular reason?-- that intelligence also determines one's culture. (?) Then again, environment is also a major factor.
Human beings like all animals have spent a great deal of their existence using their intelligence mainly for survival.
Posted by Willing Thinker {What Box} (Member # 10819) on :
Yeah, intelligence would, and maybe moreso the way you think, but other factors would as well, such as environment as you noted, and whether one is one who takes initiative( unlike me), or is conformist, nonconformist, or just plain original (like me).
What I'm said was, if the collective culture one is a part of is somehow more intelligent or sophisticated,
I think the individual in question will more likely possess intelligent traits.
Oh! I'll post my site later, about what I mean by multiple intelligences.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Willing Thinker {What Box}: but it's like lamin said alot earlier, one's culture dtermines their intelligence.
I hate to bring this thread up again, but as to the premise above, would there not be a circular reason?-- that intelligence also determines one's culture. (?) Then again, environment is also a major factor.
Human beings like all animals have spent a great deal of their existence using their intelligence mainly for survival.
I doubt intelligence determines culture.
quote:Originally posted by Grumman f6f: Right out of the gate I think what is important is when quoting to bolster one's argument that person should keep paragraph context/continuity in mind.
When I said this:
''Well how is it I can challenge sporting facts?''
Willing Thinker then said: ''If by “facts” you mean stats.''
Then in the same breath you say: Who’s denying sporting stats?''
If your intent is to argue statistics then do so in context, not in this argument. You set yourself up to win an argument without my participation.
Actually, when you said "sporting facts", that was your intention.
The purpose of most discourse here, and debate elsewhere, is to prove one's point regardless of who participates. Unless one just wants to converse on and on...
Just curious, aside from sporting statistics, did your 'facts' comprise of any thing else, like something that may actually be in contention to my stance?
Something I might be interested in? Perhaps a study showing that in any population the correlation between atheletic success is overwelmingly with genes, moreso than anything else?
My stance, for those unsure:
Significant stance point no. 1:
*Different populations have differing percentages of certain genes affecting their bodies, physical build, mobility, and of course, anything else possibly concerning the atheletic.
Lamin has noted on other pages that pacific asian black populations seem to perform similarly in sports in Africans. To me, perhaps this is because of common genes that have been lost or shrunk in terms of number in a population with those genes.
S.S.P. no# 2
Cultural, environment, and social aspects of life sure can contribute a good output of any ethnicity into the athletic field.
Didn't Jews used to be better at whites in basketball (and still are at my old school), but are now somehow stereotyped as being richer, and having weakier slower, but just as financially inclined offspring?
[RANT warning]**************8
Why do you think I made the comments I made on tha other page/s? What do you think one would think, when they went to a school they watched go from white/jew some arabs, blacks to black white mixed,
observed the differences in lifestyle of the said school (pre, middle, and high)
contrasted with the lifestyles of his friends and people in "tha hood"?
Seriously, were talkin going from an social/academic based place, with many other well balanced aspects including success in sports (two of which I played - yes, many black children were a part of it, but there were three super-exceptional white kids in terms of stereotypes, one of which, specifically an italian german american friend of mine who would have made you reconsider your genetic argument)
to a place [tha ghetto] based in the black social aspects of life, and pretty much FOCUSED exclusively on becomming skilled as an entertainer (either, sports, dancing (by the way I gotta show you a sweet video), singing, or otherwise) for social, or profession purposes.
Those things are cool in all, but we are looking at my brethren all fighting to find a couple needles in a hay stack, a hay stack they have to find barried in a desert similar to the sahara in size
only for the ones that do make it to stardome see a ignorant post on their youtube video about "we [whites] are [some how] supporting ignorant ungrateful black americans with their athletic abilities by watching them [oh, really, and your fanatical arses aren't just getting your selves some ent'ainment, huh massas?
[end /RANT WARNING]
Also, don't call me an egalitarian, when many of those who agree with this view (laymen) assert their reason for such is the fact that
'everybody has to have somethin their good at, for some, it's some things, for others, there are other things'
whites are smart, blacks are strong, asians are good copiers etc (and other unstabely based balogna).
I have not asserted every 'white' to be equal to every 'black' in all things; so don't get to twistin.
PS: I posted my multiple intelligences info. in another thread.
One thing that is obvious from all this is:
the bankrupt notion of a 'biological 'race'' dichotomy of the human species sure has confused the mess out of a host of people, and the funny thing is: it didn't even confuse it's old propagators from back in tha day, who didn't even believe in it (seemed to know of it's biological invalidity).
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...I'm well aware of my "mistake". Just didn't think I would be crucified for it. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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