A friend just emailed me the news that German researchers using a medical procedure showed the bust of Nefertiti has two faces. Computer tomography reveals underneath there is a detailed stone carving that differs from the external stucco face!
Has any one else heard of this news, & has more information to share ? On the evening news they had a short piece on the subject, nothing detailed on the matter. Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
But this isn't the only time you see "polishings" and "cleanings" of ancient artwork.
Also, Nebsen, you should edit your title. The bust, known as the "Berlin Bust" is not the only bust nor her only depiction so you should retitle your thread "Berlin Bust Was Faked."
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
This is BIG news. The berlin Bust has been posted around as the only Bust of Nefertiti. For it to be Fake should be huge in Egyptology.
Is Hawass going to speak about this?
Peace
Posted by Nebsen (Member # 13728) on :
Freehand,
thanks, but no thanks, It is fine just the way it is. I'm very much aware of the information that you shared. This is the first time I've see the "Mainstream Media", 5 o'clock news speak of this FAKE ! They even showed the outline of the face beneath, which had a much broader nose! Even the news casters(white) had a sly smile on their faces while,they shared this news. It was to my mind like they knew the "GAME" was up ! Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
LOL!
This happens when I'm totally fine with the fact that it has been paraded around so much as THE representation for Nefertit and all Kemet, but that sheer habit of "theirs" (various media publications) is the reason I always post the other dozen or so depictions of her i've seen and the reason i always refer to that as the Berlin Bust.
This whole thing is pretty weak though.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
Well, the difference between what they're claiming and what Freehand posted is that they're saying the alterations are ancient and were done by the Egyptians themselves (according the journalists).
What I want to know is how would anyone know she wasn't OLD when Thutmose made the inner cast.
Two photos of a "young looking" depiction in contrast to two of an old looking one, as well as an alleged repro of a Berlin Bust (which happens to resemble the innercast), and, the inner cast of the infamous Berlin Bust.
young looking depiction
same, different piece
"old?"
Left: close-up of an alleged Berlin "repro" of a Nefertiti Bust
Right: close up of an "old" looking statue
Inner cast, which bears a striking resemblance to the *alleged* repro (which may have not been a repro at all but claimed as one so that it could pass undetected into a private collection).
The word (nfr) also meant young in conjunction with beauty, so who knows maybe the real beauty was on the inside , "fresh", young at heart always.
Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
I knew it was fake. Because if it was real then why were there no other pharaohs or queens of Egypt even had a bust that looked like that?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
If this is true,--that what we see of the Berlin Bust is merely an outer facade and there is a more authentic depiction in the inside-- then why haven't I heard of this?!! This should be world headline news!!
Second of all, I admit I'm a little surprised by all this but not shocked at all. After all, even the colleagues of Ludwig Borchardt (the German excavator who 'discovered' the bust) suggested that Borchardt himself had a hand in the painting the bust! If anything, my surprise comes from why it took them this long to find this forgery out!!
quote:Originally posted by KING: This is BIG news. The berlin Bust has been posted around as the only Bust of Nefertiti...
Yes, you mean it was paraded around as the only depiction of Nefertiti but those more well versed in ancient Egyptian art know otherwise
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Yes this is indeed big news.
Now I wonder if she was as ugly as Cleopatra after all!! Remember the coins??
I think all historical/ancient art should be looked at with caution as back then they were done to the liking of the people themselves, their reputations, cultures, what was important to them.
Posted by Mike111 (Member # 9361) on :
An interesting thing about this un-restored bust, is that the nose is completely sheared off, but the cheeks are completely unscratched. Accidents don't happen that way.
The reason the noses were broken off, is self evident with the unfinished bust of Senusret III.
But the BIGGEST hoot (or more accurately) BIGGEST pile of Bullsh1t, comes from the British Museum; Which tells us that the Egyptians THEMSELVES (or more accurately) Rameses II did the terrible deeds. (I wonder who they would have us believe, did it before and after Rameses lived.
From the British Museum
King Amenhotep III (1390-1352 BC) commissioned a large number of statues of himself in Thebes, mostly for his mortuary temple on the west bank of the Nile. This colossal head was found in the Temple of Mut, the consort of the principal god Amun. The temple is just to the south-east of the Temple of Karnak.
Royal statues in Egypt were sometimes usurped (taken over) by later rulers. The normal procedure was simply to re-carve their name over the old one, but in some cases the physical features were also altered. Ramesses II (1279-1213 BC) seems to have altered a number of statues of Amenhotep III in this way, presumably because he wished to represent his ideal image in a certain form. In this statue, Ramesses seems to have concentrated on changing the characteristic thick lips of the older statuary to thinner ones. In other cases he took to reducing the plump stomach areas of Amenhotep's statues to make them closer to his ideal of the physical shape of the king.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: Yes this is indeed big news.
So again, why is this not in the international headlines??!
quote:Now I wonder if she was as ugly as Cleopatra after all!! Remember the coins??
Well judging by the scans of the true image underneath the facade, there wasn't much of a difference in looks...
^ As you can see the only difference is that there appear to be more facial lines or wrinkles. If anything this inner image appears to be a more aged look of the facade.
quote:I think all historical/ancient art should be looked at with caution as back then they were done to the liking of the people themselves, their reputations, cultures, what was important to them.
That may be, but the problem is when people start forging ancient artwork and depictions! That is blatant dishonesty and cultural vandalism!
I gotta say that if the facade we see is the result of Borchadt or others trying to "whiten" the original depiction they still failed. For one thing, the features are still African, particularly east African, and another is that the complexion itself is no more 'white' than Halle Berry.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
Hmm, looks sort of like my wife.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
Strange, it would have looked more authentic without the changes. I don't think the mainstream media has suggested that its a fake.
It is interesting but it doesn't imply forgery does it?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Well, why would a bust consist of an inner image and an outer facade?? Who created the outer facade? Are you saying it was ancient Egyptian artists??
Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
* It's been suggested that the art had an outer mask carved by an ancient artist, Thutmose.
* We don't know what was done when it was found.
What we know.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Freehand: * It's been suggested that the art had an outer mask carved by an ancient artist, Thutmose.
Inaccurate (not your attribution, but theirs).. This is a case of bad reporting that we must discern. Who added the outer face is still a mystery. The source its self states that an artist 'Thutmose' did the INNER face.
"Nefertiti's inner face was not anonymous, but rather delicately sculpted by the royal sculptor Thutmose"
wow good catch
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Is this an April 1st prank?? Nebson posted 31st Mar which may be April 1st German time.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Well, why would a bust consist of an inner image and an outer facade?? Who created the outer facade? Are you saying it was ancient Egyptian artists??
I am not saying that, it is appears that is what the media concluded. No one in the mainstream media has claimed fraud of any kind. What I don't get is how do we know it is Nefertiti anyways? I does't look like the other depictions of her.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The only reason why it is inferred to be Nefertiti is because it was discovered in the Amarna area, and the only female who could wear that regent's headdress in the Amarna period is Nefertiti. As for not looking like the other depictions, if you notice all the depictions differ in one way or another, but there are still similarities including the headdress.
Posted by osirion (Member # 7644) on :
^ Thanks that is good information.
Posted by SEEKING (Member # 10105) on :
How could we tell whether it was Borchadt or Thutmose who made the outer face?
EDIT: Read the article posted in the post above mine, which reports that chemical tests show the paint to be identical to that used by Egyptian artisans.
Still, I'm wary of that paint job, because it's so unusual. I don't recall any other paintings of Egyptian women with that pale orange color; they're usually either yellow (Old to Middle Kingdom) or a darker brown (New Kingdom, including the Amarna).
I'm inclined to think someone, perhaps Borchadt, did a little "cleaning".
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by T. Rex:
EDIT: Read the article posted in the post above mine, which reports that chemical tests show the paint to be identical to that used by Egyptian artisans.
They did not "report" this, they merely rehashed what they said experts have been "arguing" for years. It isn't as if the recent CT Scan revealed new and definitive evidence of this (as one would assume from reading your post)..
Whoever did it isn't as important as the fact that it was indeed retouched and doesn't represent Nefertiti as she would have looked in life. I will not base any conclusion on what some journalist says, I need to read it from the horse's mouth. The article's title is misleading. I posted an abstract to the study (which doesn't make any claims as to the antiquity of the outeer face) but don't have full access to it.
Like you, I can't reconcile her appearance with that of nearly all other depictions of Egyptian women (including others of her) during the Armana period, nor do I understand why an Egyptian sculpter would alter that appearance to conform with an ideal of beauty that doesn't reflect the vast majority of the population.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
copyright 2003 ...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by T. Rex: I'm inclined to think someone, perhaps Borchadt, did a little "cleaning".
I've said it before, and I'm gonna say it again-- I've noticed in older photos of the bust (decades older to be exact) that there were small hints of darker pigment. This is especially seen in bright light photography where the color is akin to dark blush around the cheeks. Similar to the painting of Nefertari, wife of Ramses below.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
A new development:
1 day ago
PARIS (AFP) — The bust of Queen Nefertiti housed in a Berlin museum and believed to be 3,400 years old in fact is a copy dating from 1912 that was made to test pigments used by the ancient Egyptians, according to Swiss art historian Henri Stierlin.
Stierlin, author of a dozen works on Egypt, the Middle East and ancient Islam, says in a just-released book that the bust currently in Berlin's Altes Museum was made at the order of German archaeologist Ludwig Borchardt by an artist named Gerardt Marks.
"It seems increasingly improbable that the bust is an original," Stierlin told AFP.
The historian said the archaeologist had hoped to produce a new portrait of the queen wearing a necklace he knew she had owned, and was also looking to carry out a colour test with ancient pigments found at the digs.
But on December 6, 1912, the copy was admired as an original work by a German prince and the archaeologist "couldn't sum up the courage to ridicule" his guest, Stierlin said.
The historian, who has been working on the subject for 25 years, said he based his findings on several facts. "The bust has no left eye and was never crafted to have one. This is an insult for an ancient Egyptian who believed the statue was the person themself."
He also said the shoulders were cut vertically in the style practised since the 19th century while "Egyptians cut shoulders horizontally" and that the features were accentuated in a manner recalling that of Art Nouveau.
It was impossible to scientifically establish the date of the bust because it was made of stone covered in plaster, he said.
"The pigments, which can be dated, are really ancient," he added.
Stierlin also listed problems he noted during the discovery and shipment to Germany as well as in scientific reports of the time.
French archaeologists present at the site never mentioned the finding and neither did written accounts of the digs. The earliest detailed scientific report appeared in 1923, 11 years after the discovery.
The archaeologist "didn't even bother to supply a description, which is amazing for an exceptional work found intact".
Borchardt "knew it was a fake," Stierlin said. "He left the piece for 10 years in his sponsor's sitting-room. It's as if he'd left Tutankhamen's mask in his own sitting-room."
Egypt has demanded the return of the bust discovered on the banks of the Nile since it went on display in 1923, depicting a stunning woman wearing a unique cone-shaped headdress.
One of Berlin's prime attractions it will move into its own hall at the newly renovated Neues Museum when it reopens to the public in October.
LOL, so the bust is a 20th century copy, no wonder they didn't want to lend it to the new museum of cairo.
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
WOW
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
Great post Tigerlily. Definitely not surprised but I'm sure it's a revelation to most, which is what makes this significant.
Posted by Yonis2 (Member # 11348) on :
I bet these are fake too, they look very unegyptian artistic wise like the moustache on Rahotep, AE's despised facial hair even head hair they prefered wigs and beard, but here Nofrets real hair is shown under the wig, the artist intentionally wanted to reveal that its a wig on Nofret, very unEgyptian. Also those individuals physically don't even look Near-eastern let alone NE African.
Posted by Freehand (Member # 10819) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: LOL, so the bust is a 20th century copy, no wonder they didn't want to lend it to the new museum of cairo.
What's sad is this: wasn't Egypt propositioning 90 mummies to the Berlin Bust?
Off bat I think of at least two funny reasons it wouldn't have been in their best interest.
Posted by Ebony Allen (Member # 12771) on :
Was Nefertari Asiatic? I looked at wall paintings on her online and she's always yellow. Weren't women being painted brown as their natural skin color around this time instead of the symbolic yellow? And some say that all of the Rameses pharaohs were Asiatic.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ebony Allen: Was Nefertari Asiatic? I looked at wall paintings on her online and she's always yellow.
Funny that I've never seen these.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I think Ebony is referring to images like these:
^ But again, notice the dark splotches on her cheeks and nose.
But here are other images where the paint is better preserved:
By the way, this is Nefertari wife of Ramses not to be confused with Ahmose Nefertari.
Posted by qoucela (Member # 13149) on :
Probably the most fake looking things about Nefertiti's Berlin bust was the color she was painted. If the Germans did the repainting, than it's obvious why.
Posted by qoucela (Member # 13149) on :
Repainted Egyptian works can also be seen in the major New York City museums. Sometimes groups of individuals have been painted completely pink.
Posted by qoucela (Member # 13149) on :
"I bet these are fake too, they look very..."
To Yonis2
A whole article in one of Dr. Van Sertima's books I think was done on the subject of those sculptures and the probability of their being forged or fraudulent. I can't remember which Journal it was in. Will look for it.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ But the problem isn't repainting figures with a lighter color so much as it is air-brushing away the original dark paint as part of some efforts to "clean" the artifacts!
Perhaps the greatest example of this would be the famously seen seated scribe below:
Now
Before
^ Notice that if the original dark brown paint had been preserved all over including the face, even with his features which are mislabeled as "caucasian", he would look not much different from the African man in the green shirt below.
Unfortunately, examples of depictions where the color is faded or even airbrushed away is all too common. Posted by ackee (Member # 16371) on :
OH Snap,I just notice that,you know when black people start getting angry and protest,some people retort by calling them angry Afrocentrist or conspiricy theorist, out to steal other peoples history.When It is their history that's being stolen in a bold in your face in broadday light move.They in fact are saying yea did it an there is F..kall you can do about it. Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by qoucela: "I bet these are fake too, they look very..."
To Yonis2
A whole article in one of Dr. Van Sertima's books I think was done on the subject of those sculptures and the probability of their being forged or fraudulent. I can't remember which Journal it was in. Will look for it.
Manu Ampim was supposed to write book about it. You may be talking about him..
This is a major slap in the face for the Egyptological community and media elites who paraded around the Berlin bust as if it were real. People for years questioned it's authenticity because it was so far outside the norm of other Egyptian pieces...especially for the Armarna period. But we all know it was only paraded around due to how caucasian the bust appeared to be.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
The bust being Fake, just makes the racist egyptologist have to tread lightly now since it is clear that there is people who are desperate to cover up the African Ethnicity of Ancient Egyptians.
Truthseekers 1
Egyptologist 0
Peace
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I think the score for truth-seekers is way higher than just 1 point! LOL Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Based on the CT scans above, and obviously if one used the same color paint as the outside facade, the bust of Nefertiti would look like this:
The image above kind of reminds me of the actress who portrayed Nefertiti in the Discovery program 'Nefertiti Resurrected', although I have little doubt that if this authentic portrait were painted, the skin color would be darker. One thing's for sure, and that is this inner authentic portrait bears a much stronger resemblance to the other portraits we have of Nefertiti especially the one below with the missing nose.
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
Good info. Most of the reconstructions appear closer to the darker model above than to say some European type so often shown in the media.
Posted by zarahan (Member # 15718) on :
^
on the other hand some may argue that the model below, named Nefertiti Shepherd may be more of a resemblance...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Actually her name is Neferteri Shepherd, who I'm a big fan of.
Yes, indeed.
But my original point is that the real inner portrait inside the bust bears a much closer resemblance to the other unpainted or damaged busts.
This only supports the theory that royal artwork and portraits are much more consistent previously thought.
Just look at the bust of Tiye beside a damaged statue.
We see the same thing for Tiye's husband Amenhotep III in this thread here.
Consistency is the key here, which is why I was always suspicious of that painted facade of Nefertiti.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I think Ebony is referring to images like these:
^ But again, notice the dark splotches on her cheeks and nose.
But here are other images where the paint is better preserved:
By the way, this is Nefertari wife of Ramses not to be confused with Ahmose Nefertari.
The first image was the result of a "restoration" project done by the Getty institute, which tried to make the Queen look white. In other threads we had the before and after photos of that same portrait showing the before image being dark brown and the after image being light tan and pink. And when they reopened the tomb there was all sorts of propaganda suggesting that these "light pink" colors were so 'lifelike' as if other colors used in ancient Egypt, like brown are not lifelike......
Posted by NeferKemet (Member # 17109) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: I bet these are fake too, they look very unegyptian artistic wise like the moustache on Rahotep, AE's despised facial hair even head hair they prefered wigs and beard, but here Nofrets real hair is shown under the wig, the artist intentionally wanted to reveal that its a wig on Nofret, very unEgyptian. Also those individuals physically don't even look Near-eastern let alone NE African.
quote:Originally posted by Yonis2: I bet these are fake too, they look very unegyptian artistic wise like the moustache on Rahotep, AE's despised facial hair even head hair they prefered wigs and beard, but here Nofrets real hair is shown under the wig, the artist intentionally wanted to reveal that its a wig on Nofret, very unEgyptian. Also those individuals physically don't even look Near-eastern let alone NE African.
And of course, out of the thousands of images from the Old Kingdom why is this statue of rahotep and nofret so important? Obviously, you cannot understand any period of Egyptian art, let alone any understanding of the people and culture behind that art from one or two pieces of art, let alone Rahotep and Nofret.
Rahotep had a massive mastaba tomb in Meidum that contained many hundreds if not thousands of individual portraits and works of art. Much was looted in antiquity and much that survived was taken by Europeans to private collections or museums. Yet this one statue and maybe one stela are the only images you see, as if that is all that survived....
Given that for any particular figure from ancient Egypt many images exist that do not all necessarily look exactly alike for various reasons, it is impossible to take any image and treat it as literal in most cases.
But yes, some of Manu Ampim's arguments do seem convincing, especially when compared to other pieces from Egypt:
This is all goes back to my argument of consistency. It is true that all art is subjective, however when it comes to portraits especially of important people we must remember that either the artwork resembles the person entirely OR an idealized version of that person. I believe that some pieces were idealized while others more realistic. But judging by the many portraits of the 18th dynasty including Nefertiti, there was obviously some practice of realism here.
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Definitely not surprised but I'm sure it's a revelation to most, which is what makes this significant.
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