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Nothing is wrong with it. Some peoples from ancient Arabia settled in Africa and mixed with Africans

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It is wrong however to say that populations like the Mande as a whole came from Arabia.

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Most Africans however are people who have absorbed such people.

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Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in

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On another note, just because some people claim they came from the east doesn't mean they are arabs

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Some peoples from ancient Arabia settled in Africa and mixed with Africans.

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.

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Page 40 quote from Yaqut 13th century


The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled

page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century


In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan

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Drusilla Houston.... refererred to Alexander the Great’s views on the unparalleled stature of ancient Oman, which she says was “inferior to no country” and “a harbor of the ancient commerce.” While she did not question south western Arabia as the production point of the coveted incenses, she did amass some evidence to argue that this area was under Black African control and culture, something which fits well with the fact that African lands were responsible for much of the wealth in this trade."

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Portuguese in the royal court of Benin



"Ambassadors, Explorers, and Allies: A Study of African-European Diplomatic Relationships, 1400-1600" Andrea Felber Seligman

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=curej

Page 11 Africans came to Europe:

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Some came as esteemed courtiers and visitors, others as enslaved laborers.1 Most of these Africans, along with captured Muslims, lived lives similar to other European subordinates, with some legal limitations. A number of cases illuminated the existing possibilities of some social mobility.2 Early European views of Africans were without the taint of the racism that developed in later centuries. Wealth, the appearance of nobility, and good manners appeared to be the main criteria in determining social ranking, along with religion. Hostility was most pronounced toward those considered to be Muslim, not towards those of darker skin coloration.

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When the conquest of the West (by the Arabs) was completed, and merchants began to penetrate into the interior, they saw no nation of the Blacks so mighty as Ghanah, the dominions of which extended westward as far as the Ocean. The King's court was kept in the city of Ghanah, which, according to the author of the Book of Roger (El Idrisi), and the author of the Book of Roads and Realms (El Bekri), is divided into two parts, standing on both banks of the Nile, and ranks among the largest and most populous cities of the world.

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The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army

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We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution

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For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
[qoute]Though Fulani have mixed in recent times with Islamic Arabians

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
u have to forgive the book of tariq. it is kinda a estranged subject and sounds like another blacks are not blacks book but his research is really thorough. i see him on too many arabic websites and he uses his material and he murders people because the book does not do justice to what he has in arabic. u have to be arab or learn arabic to really get the juice of his point. he has people copying his material in the arab world. i have met plenty sub saharan arabs from cameroon one fulani and one haddadi who were asfar men(yellow=dark skin)and they agreed to everything tariq mentioned. there is a great ignorance about what an arab is. this is a vey specific knowledge in which is held in arab books of history and dictionaries and poetry and etc. the english book does ont give his justice. tariq is tough in the arabic language and pulls info that is incredible in the fact that he found such info. i think that the issue is that the info he presents is not like the greeks talking about egyptians in when any person can make the text ambiguous even though it is obvious. he brings text of arabs describing themselves with their students who r arabs explaining even more about the meanings of their statements with multitudes of evidences. i used a drop of hjis info before i even heared of him with plenty of known arabs and they were like a robber who got caught in the act. teh evidence is to clear and unambiguous but this will be unheared of to non arabs.
another major point he was trying to make was that the vast makority of the groups that make up the origins of the aa s claimed an easten origin.

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For more info on this subject you can see my posts on this site. I am glad to here that Tariq's work is making it around the Arab world. You were on Mike's site about who the real Arab was and thus you should go back and read what I said. On those posts about the real Arabs and in my own pages on the forum I show how all of the tribal groups i the peninsula of Arabia were at one time described as black, while today the population is composed of Arabs who've mixed with Turks, Syrians and Iranians and Europeans.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
There are bizarre legends that all the monarchs of Europe have some kind of heritage going back to Jesus. Some day this will be used to say that all the great nations of Europe were founded by a ruling class of Hebrews

"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"

Amazon.com

page 1 Al-Ya'qubi (9th century) wrote that Zaghawa are "Sudan" and descendants of Ham who traveled westward. Many translations in that book and that chapter are wrong though but the Zaghawa were not Yemenites. I think you have confused legends of Arab folk heroes with mass "race mixing"

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.

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The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.

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Originally posted by markellion:
There are bizarre legends that all the monarchs of Europe have some kind of heritage going back to Jesus. Some day this will be used to say that all the great nations of Europe were founded by a ruling class of Hebrews

"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"

Amazon.com

page 1 Al-Ya'qubi (9th century) wrote that Zaghawa are "Sudan" and descendants of Ham who traveled westward. Many translations in that book and that chapter are wrong though but the Zaghawa were not Yemenites. I think you have confused legends of Arab folk heroes with mass "race mixing"

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.

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The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
[qoute]Though Fulani have mixed in recent times with Islamic Arabians

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have not seen any such claim. uthman dan fodio said thay descend from different groups to generally become the fellata

quote:

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Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in

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so does the mande. the fact that the zaghawa or duguwa were spread all the way to the atlantic coast as mentioned by ibn khaldun in which they removed a settlement of jews. most of the saharan groups are black. in morocco that is the detemining factor of being sahrawi or desert person = black.

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Originally posted by argyle104:
dana marniche,


What do you mean by mixed? How many people from another group does it take to make a population mixed? Give us the numbers.

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.

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Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.[109]

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In terms of language, Manuel de Faria e Sousa noted that Arabic, for example, was not widely spoken between Kirimba and Sofala: the language of those people cannot be harsh, being mostly compounded of the soft letters 1 and m (Theal, 1898(1):22). The Portuguese generally described Arabic dialects as harsh, while Swahili, or the language of the coast of Melinde, was described as soft. M. de Figueroa described Swahili as clearer than Arabic (Figueroa, 1967:62). By the seventeenth century, Portuguese accounts made strong distinctions between mouros da costa (Swahili) and 'mouros da Arabia (Omanis or Yemenis)

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Mr. L. M. Butcher tells the story of Christianity in the Soudan. Missionaries from Egypt came about the end of the fourth century, and the entire land was soon won for the Christian 'faith. Moslems first invaded the Soudan in 640. Their wars on the Christian kingdom of Nubia extorted an annual tribute of three hundred and sixty slaves for the Kaliph, and so in 653 the Arab slave trade began. But the Nubian kingdom was powerful enough to defeat Moslem Egypt in 740 and win better terms for the Egyptian Christians, Frequent difficulties arose from the slave trade which followed the slave-tribute. About 1000 A.D. Khartoum, the capital of the southern Christian kingdom, was described by a Moslem envoy as a town full of magnificent buildings, spacious mansions, churches enriched with gold. The last Christian King of Nubia began to reign about the beginning of the fifteenth century. In 1501, a negro and Moslem dynasty established itself in the Soudan, and Listed till the beginning of the present century :—

Yet it must not be supposed that Christianity ever died entirely out of the Soudan. At the beginning of the seventeenth century there were still one hundred and fifty churches in the kingdom of Alouah, and they made a fruitless appeal to the King of Abyssinia to send them the priests whom they could not get from Egypt. In Nubia the number is not likely to have been less. In 1833 the Egyptian Patriarch succeeded in getting a bishop through to Khartoum and maintaining the succession there once more. The final blow has been given, we are told, by ourselves. Before Khartoum fell in 1886 the Bishop of Khartoum brought away his nuns in safely to Cairo. He told me that he had still seven churches in his diocese, now probably all destroyed.

But after Omdurman " the rights of the Christian inhabitants were as absolutely ignored as if they did not exist." The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered : " No word was said of the Bishop's Court, which even in the worst times of the Moslem tyranny was legally empowered to decide all matters of marriage and inheritance for the native Christians." Mr. Butcher concludes :—

Shall it be said that a Christian Church which has endured through centuries of Moslem persecution fell before the Christian English to whom they looked for deliverance?

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Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.

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This quote just screams 19th century racial theories. I have proof that Arabization comes from European colonialism

"The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered"

"Shall it be said that a Christian Church which has endured through centuries of Moslem persecution fell before the Christian English to whom they looked for deliverance?"

"EASTERN AFRICA AND THE INDIAN OCEAN TO 1800: REVIEWING RELATIONS IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE" by Pouwels, Randall L:

quote:

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Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.[109]

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"Portuguese Conceptual Categories and the "Other" Encounter on the Swahili Coast." by Prestholdt, Jeremy

Note 10

quote:

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In terms of language, Manuel de Faria e Sousa noted that Arabic, for example, was not widely spoken between Kirimba and Sofala: the language of those people cannot be harsh, being mostly compounded of the soft letters 1 and m (Theal, 1898(1):22). The Portuguese generally described Arabic dialects as harsh, while Swahili, or the language of the coast of Melinde, was described as soft. M. de Figueroa described Swahili as clearer than Arabic (Figueroa, 1967:62). By the seventeenth century, Portuguese accounts made strong distinctions between mouros da costa (Swahili) and 'mouros da Arabia (Omanis or Yemenis)

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"CHRISTIAN CONTINUITY IN THE SOUDAN."

http://books.google.com/books?id=5WkAAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA574&dq=#v=onepage&q=&f=false

quote:

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Mr. L. M. Butcher tells the story of Christianity in the Soudan. Missionaries from Egypt came about the end of the fourth century, and the entire land was soon won for the Christian 'faith. Moslems first invaded the Soudan in 640. Their wars on the Christian kingdom of Nubia extorted an annual tribute of three hundred and sixty slaves for the Kaliph, and so in 653 the Arab slave trade began. But the Nubian kingdom was powerful enough to defeat Moslem Egypt in 740 and win better terms for the Egyptian Christians, Frequent difficulties arose from the slave trade which followed the slave-tribute. About 1000 A.D. Khartoum, the capital of the southern Christian kingdom, was described by a Moslem envoy as a town full of magnificent buildings, spacious mansions, churches enriched with gold. The last Christian King of Nubia began to reign about the beginning of the fifteenth century. In 1501, a negro and Moslem dynasty established itself in the Soudan, and Listed till the beginning of the present century :—

Yet it must not be supposed that Christianity ever died entirely out of the Soudan. At the beginning of the seventeenth century there were still one hundred and fifty churches in the kingdom of Alouah, and they made a fruitless appeal to the King of Abyssinia to send them the priests whom they could not get from Egypt. In Nubia the number is not likely to have been less. In 1833 the Egyptian Patriarch succeeded in getting a bishop through to Khartoum and maintaining the succession there once more. The final blow has been given, we are told, by ourselves. Before Khartoum fell in 1886 the Bishop of Khartoum brought away his nuns in safely to Cairo. He told me that he had still seven churches in his diocese, now probably all destroyed.

But after Omdurman " the rights of the Christian inhabitants were as absolutely ignored as if they did not exist." The English conquerors announced that the law of the Koran was to be administered : " No word was said of the Bishop's Court, which even in the worst times of the Moslem tyranny was legally empowered to decide all matters of marriage and inheritance for the native Christians." Mr. Butcher concludes :—

Shall it be said that a Christian Church which has endured through centuries of Moslem persecution fell before the Christian English to whom they looked for deliverance?

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
The book is full of ****.

Why u associate everything with color is what amazez me BlackEgyptian, BlackIndian, BlackAsian, BlackSyrians, Black this black that.

Black is used to describe an object but its seems u all associate black with african-american african

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"Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam."

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“The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)”

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Drusilla Houston.... refererred to Alexander the Great’s views on the unparalleled stature of ancient Oman, which she says was “inferior to no country” and “a harbor of the ancient commerce.” While she did not question south western Arabia as the production point of the coveted incenses, she did amass some evidence to argue that this area was under Black African control and culture, something which fits well with the fact that African lands were responsible for much of the wealth in this trade."

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In a discussion of race and colonial discourse, Homi Bhabha has described the stereotype as "a form of knowledge and identification that facilitates between what is always 'in place', already known, and something that must be anxiously repeated As if the essential duplicity of the Asiatic or the bestial sexual license of the African that needs no proof, can never, in discourse, be proved." In dual character as that which is already known and yet dependent on being anxiously repeated suggests an important aspect of the racial stereotype that is revealed in its use and function in many colonial sources......

page 14

"....We always already know that blacks are licentious, Asiatics duplicitous The stereotype becomes an element of unproven prior knowledge that needs no proof of its veracity for its employment as explanation for racialized difference.

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Originally posted by markellion:
Dana, the reason I am so concerned about this is because you make Africans look weak and inferior. Only an inferior race could allow people to walk in and become their ruling class.

Consider this on stereotypes but with the stereotype of Africans being docile:

"Unnatural and ever prejudicial Constructions of Race and Colonial Hierarchies by British observers" in 19th century Zanzibar Electronic pages 13

http://cua.wrlc.org/bitstream/1961/5523/1/etd_jwd35.pdf

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In a discussion of race and colonial discourse, Homi Bhabha has described the stereotype as "a form of knowledge and identification that facilitates between what is always 'in place', already known, and something that must be anxiously repeated As if the essential duplicity of the Asiatic or the bestial sexual license of the African that needs no proof, can never, in discourse, be proved." In dual character as that which is already known and yet dependent on being anxiously repeated suggests an important aspect of the racial stereotype that is revealed in its use and function in many colonial sources......

page 14

"....We always already know that blacks are licentious, Asiatics duplicitous The stereotype becomes an element of unproven prior knowledge that needs no proof of its veracity for its employment as explanation for racialized difference.

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In any case I still feel you are confusing ancient migrations with more recent. I know it might sound like "hamitic theory" that sought to make some mythical black Caucasians into those that brought civilization into Africa. No such people ever existed.

The people I am talking about are black and of African origin that once lived in Arabia. I am not saying they brought indigenous culture to Africans. I am also not saying they are different than Africans, but an extension of the Arabs. The Arabs you are talking about or thinking about are hardly even Arabs let alone ancient Arabs.

The fact is the ruling classes that I am talking about claim descent from Arabia. Most of the groups are actually the result of mixing with early Hausa originated peoples like the Gobir, Kwararafa, Jukon, Kwona, Zaghwe and other originally Cushitic people. They are the people we call Africans, Abyssinians or Beishat, and people who were basically an extension of neolithic and Bronze Age east Africans into the Arabian peninsula. Furthermore they were Africans when they left Arabia, and their remnants in Arabia still claim an African origin.

This is also not a reference to modern Sudanese Arabs who came much later after the time of Muhammed when their ancestors the Sulaym, Ghatafan, Abs groups were already mixing with their Byzantine and Syrian concubines.

Peoples of the Sudan have always been mixing amongst themselves so I am not sure what you are arguing about.


Mahra of Arabia

The Mahra people belong to Kudh'a of Himyar and Saba and people like them up until a few hundred years ago occupied the entirety of Arabia for several thousand years. Among their descendants were the people of Central Arabia and Hejaz extending to Syria where they were referred to by Greeks as "the black Syrians", Phoenicians, Canaanites, Solymi or Israelites, etc. Though they claim an African origin they have no doubt lived in Arabia for thousands of years before Christ and are responsible for early "semitic' civilization.

Arabia long known as "eastern Ethiopia", (and part of Bilad as Sudan) including Yemen, has long since been settled by Iranians or Ebna, Turks and Syrians, and people of slaves descent coming from the Byzantines and subject peoples of the Arabs.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
I posted about more recent relations including relations with the Portuguese to show that People coming in and becoming the ruling class seems far fetched.

People from Africa were traveling to Arabia why don't we hear about this?

The Arabs were completely fine with this for example Al-Masudi admitting all the Arabs learned archery from the Nubians. See the quote I gave about the king of Zafun and his influence
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
I am interested in getting this book by Tariq Berry "The Unknown Arabs..". If anyone can assist me finding a copy or assist in contacting Tariq it would be appreciated.

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3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)

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“The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)”

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Originally posted by markellion:
As I said Africans normally traveled to Arabia which is support by Al-Masudi who said they learned archery from Nubians. The quote I posted earlier from M.A. Shaban showed how thousands traveled to Arabia and enlisted as soldiers.

“The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon

Pages 17-20 and page 22 cover the Nubian Dam

http://books.google.com/books?id=LcsJosc239YC&lpg=PA22&pg=PA20#v=onepage&q=&f=false

On page 20 the author wrote

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3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)

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page 19

http://books.google.com/books?id=LcsJosc239YC&lpg=PA19&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q=&f=false

he quotes Al-Masudi

quote:

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“The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)”

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Of course early Arabians learned archery from their ancestors.

A 4th century Roman writer on early Arabians - Ammanius Marcellinus - said this

Book XIV.4: At this time also the Saracens, a race whom it is never desirable to have either for friends or enemies, ranging up and down the country, if ever they found anything, plundered it in a moment, like rapacious hawks who, if from on high they behold any prey, carry it off with a rapid swoop, or, if they fail in their attempt, do not tarry. And although, in recounting the career of the Prince Marcus, and once or twice subsequently, I remember having discussed the manners of this people, nevertheless I will now briefly enumerate a few more particulars concerning them.

Among these tribes, WHOSE PRIMARY ORIGIN IS DERIVED FROM THE CATARACTS OF THE NILE AND TEH BORDERS OF THE BLEMMYAE, all the men are warriors of equal rank; half naked, clad in colored cloaks down to the waist, overrunning different countries, with the aid of swift and active horses and speedy camels... Ammianus Marcellinus.


Yafa'i tribe of the Banu Ru'ayn (also probably the Haiyafa of Assyrian texts)
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
[qb] Wesley Williams book, Black Arabia, also mentions that that Ibn Mudjawir said the region of the Tihama as "Kush".


The people of the Tihama still use their ancient east African style beehive huts.

Arabia was an extension of east Africa in ancient times.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
My problem was that people always talk about Arabs going into Africa and not the other way around. The relationships are always portrayed as one sided

Hausa became was a world language "a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa."

"It is the Latin of Central Sudan."

Perry Noble

http://books.google.com/books?id=vdxBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA164#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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In the Chad group the Hausa has spread farthest and acquired most usefulness. The vernacular of a numerous people, it offers a valuable medium of communication through vast districts on both sides of the Binwe and the Niger. In extent of use it surpasses all other languages in inner Africa, serving not only as the mother=tongue of millions but as a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa. Hausa is remarkable for simplicity, elegance and wealth of vocabulary. It stands among the world's imperial languages, magnificent, rich and sonorous, beautiful and facile in grammatical structure, enjoying a harmony in the forms of its words and a symphonic symmetry that few tongues can equal, and assured of prolonged existence and vast expansion. It is the Latin of Central Sudan.

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quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
It is everyones problem look at the media. Africans are always portrayed as passive

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Actually Africans are portrayed as lacking civilization, passive, overly agressive, worthless, lacking culture and innovation. But we all know that's far from the truth.


Some scientists believe this African sculpture dates back to over 10,000 years ago.



Woman of the Hyksos


Olmecs heads found near pyramids in Central America. The internal dimensions were found to be similar to ancient nilotic ones.



First "pharaoh"
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
My point was that during the Islamic era there seemed to have been less Yemenite migration across the great desert than the amount you claimed migrated in Pre-Islamic times

While on the other hand there continued to be large numbers of Africans traveling northward across the desert, south to north migrations

Add to the mix that colonialists tampered with local histories and were biased toward the idea of North to South migrations

"EASTERN AFRICA AND THE INDIAN OCEAN TO 1800: REVIEWING RELATIONS IN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE" by Pouwels, Randall L:

quote:

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Until the nineteenth century, notions of the civilized person (mungwana) centered on the ideal of the free, cultured, indigenous townsperson who was thoroughly schooled in local language, tradition, and forms of Islam. There is little in the evidence to suggest there existed any specific association between local notions about what this meant and being or living "like an Arab" (ustaarabu), an idea that characterized nineteenth-century life.

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quote:

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The Battles of the Prophet" by Ibn Kathir, in it on page 97 it reads, " Quraish came and encamped where the torrent beds of Ruma meet between Al-Jurut and Zughabah with ten thousand of their black mercenaries and their followers from the tribe of Kinanah and the people of Tuhamah (Tihamah)

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the translation is wrong. it is done by people like markellion. they translate ahabeesh as black slave soldiers. this is probably done because they were unfamiliar with arab custom before islaam. jawad ali an iraqi that in his opinion the ahabeesh who settled the tihama regions were there were arab tribes under their control and anybody in that area was called ahabeesh. he says that they probably intermarried and allied with arab tribes and became of arab lineage because they are mentioned more than once in battles. allying with tribes was famous in arabia. the saudi family are a result. he says his is from them being their for so long so all tribes in that area became known as ahabeesh. do not forget this area was ruled by habasha.

tihama arabs

 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
The black Arabs were supposed to have spread all over Bilad al-Sudan in Pre-Islamic times but they didn't do this after Islam.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
Jahiz interviews some Zanj:

Al-Jahiz (776-869): "Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites"

quote:

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and if the Prophet – may Allah be pleased with him – knew that the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians were not ruddy or light-skinned, rather dark-skinned, and that Allah Most High sent him to the dark-skinned and the ruddy, then surely he made us and the Arabs equals. Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us.....

...Qahtan is far from Adman. We (Zanj) are closer kin to the Abyssinians and our mothers are closer kin then those of Adnan are to Qahtan.

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The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication.

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Dana I have a few questions for you. I see you reference to a book called "Black Arabia" by Wesley Williams. Is this same author called Wesley Muhammad who has a book called "Black Arabia & the African Origin of Islam"? Also are you a Arab speaker. I'm just curious because you seem to have some knowledge regarding Arabian history. Also in your opinion is Tariq Berry sound in his analysis. I have been doing research about Arabian history and culture for a few years and not being a proficient Arab speaker really hinders the research, but Tariq seems to know his stuff from what I've read on another website. Anyways, keep up the good work. Also to let you know there's a book called "The Battles of the Prophet" by Ibn Kathir, in it on page 97 it reads, " Quraish came and encamped where the torrent beds of Ruma meet between Al-Jurut and Zughabah with ten thousand of their black mercenaries and their followers from the tribe of Kinanah and the people of Tuhamah (Tihamah)."
I put this quote in relation to the picture you posted of the brother from Tihamah above. I always wanted some clarity to the passage I posted about the people of Tihamah, so the picture you provided was right on time. Thanks again.

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Abdul Karem thanks for the pictures. Based off of this recent info I went to find which companions of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah's peace and Blessings be upon him)came from Tihama. I found At- Tufayl Bin Amr Bin Dawsi, and the well known sahaba Abu Hurayrah Ad- Dawsi Al Yamani were from Tihama, (May Allah be pleased with them both). This tells me most likely, they were dark skinned also since they all came from this region. Here's a link with their bio's if you or anyone else is interested. This is a big find for me with the research I'm doing all thanks be to Allah, anyways thanks for the pics. As-salaamu Alaikum.

#1- http://www.rasoulallah.net/subject_en.asp?hit=1&parent_id=11&sub_id=5728

#2- http://www.articlesbase.com/spirituality-articles/attufayl-ibn-amr-addawsi-stories-of-the-sahaba-1536173.html

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Its important to remember that Central Arabia and northern Arabia were equally described as black by numerous writers except for their Byzantine (Rum) concubines brought into Hejaz and Harrah regions. The Sulaym and "all of the other tribes of the Harrah" in northwest Arabia were "black". As were the dozens of Qays, Rebia and Wa'il who extended from the Yemen through Central Arabia to the Euphrates.

Most fair-skinned tribes now living in Central Arabia and especially in the Gulf are Arab tribes who are people who settled from the Yemen in Syria and Iraq and began moving back into the penisula after the 16th century. While Yemenites have long been mixed with the Ebna (Iranians) and more recently with the Turks.


Dawasir of Yemama in the Nejd (Central Arabia)
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

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Originally posted by markellion:
Dana do you have any evidence to back up the ruling class mixed thing?

Edit: I'm only questioning the ruling class thing not saying there were any barriers between people

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Abdul Karem thanks for the pictures. Based off of this recent info I went to find which companions of the Prophet Muhammad (May Allah's peace and Blessings be upon him)came from Tihama. I found At- Tufayl Bin Amr Bin Dawsi, and the well known sahaba Abu Hurayrah Ad- Dawsi Al Yamani were from Tihama, (May Allah be pleased with them both). This tells me most likely, they were dark skinned also since they all came from this region. Here's a link with their bio's if you or anyone else is interested. This is a big find for me with the research I'm doing all thanks be to Allah, anyways thanks for the pics. As-salaamu Alaikum.

#1- http://www.rasoulallah.net/subject_en.asp?hit=1&parent_id=11&sub_id=5728

#2- http://www.articlesbase.com/spirituality-articles/attufayl-ibn-amr-addawsi-stories-of-the-sahaba-1536173.html

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.

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Standing Conti Rossini on his Head

The result of such convergent investigations by scholars working in different fields was that Jacqueline Pirenne, basing herself on the areas material culture, as well as on linguistic and paleographic data, stood Conti Rossinis thesis on its head. She argued that migration was not from Yemen to Ethiopia, but rather in the opposite direction: from Ethiopia to Yemen.

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Meroe was the centre of the great caravan trade between Ethiopia, Egypt, Arabia, Northern Africa and India. Several colonies went from Meroe, and the first civilized state in Egypt, that of Thebes, which, as a resort for the caravans, always remained intimately connected with Meroe, and was governed by priests, must have originated thence......Ammonium (see Amman, and Oasis) also was a small priestly state, with a king, founded by Egyptians and by Ethiopians from Meroe. Meroe and Axum (in Abyssinia) which appears to have been also a colony from Meroe, remained the centre of the southern commerce till the time of the Arabians.

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They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony

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Originally posted by markellion:
Jahiz interviews some Zanj:

Al-Jahiz (776-869): "Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites"

quote:

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and if the Prophet – may Allah be pleased with him – knew that the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians were not ruddy or light-skinned, rather dark-skinned, and that Allah Most High sent him to the dark-skinned and the ruddy, then surely he made us and the Arabs equals. Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us.....

...Qahtan is far from Adman. We (Zanj) are closer kin to the Abyssinians and our mothers are closer kin then those of Adnan are to Qahtan.

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You, you never dominated our country.

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2. Now the Ethiopians, as historians relate, were the first of all men and the proofs of this statement, they say, are manifest. For that they did not come into their land as immigrants from abroad but were natives of it and so justly bear the name of "autochthones"

.....and Heracles and Dionysus, although they visited all the inhabited earth, failed to subdue the Ethiopians alone who dwell above Egypt, both because of the piety of these men and because of the insurmountable difficulties involved in the attempt.....

....These, then, are the customs which prevail among the Ethiopians who dwell in their capital (Napata) and those who inhabit both the island of Meroe and the land adjoining Egypt.

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
My problem was Wesley Muhammad sayin Islam's origins being linked with Africa. The whole concept of Islam being attributed with Africa is false. If Wesley wants to say black people were the earliest members of the Muslim faith that's one thing, but to call them African is wrong. To say these people were black so they're African is wrong also.

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During the first or Meccan period (610=622) of his prophetship Muhammad and his followers looked upon the Abyssinian Christians as their religious kinsmen. "Yonder," he said to some of his persecuted converts without protectors, and, as he spake, pointing westward: "Yonder lieth a land where none is wronged. Go thither, and remain till the Lord open a way". Dean Stanley noted this connection between the Abyssinian Christians and the first Muslims. He wrote: "Springing out of the same oriental soil and climate, if not from the bosom of the oriental church itself, in part under its influence, in part by reaction, Muhammadanism must be regarded as an eccentric, heretical form of eastern Christianity. This was the ancient mode of regarding Muhammad. He was considered not the founder of a new religion but, rather, one of the chief heresiarchs of the church"

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It is an interesting fact that among the few words of Christian origin in the Quran some, including Shaitan or Satan, came from Abyssinia.

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regards Islam as in many respects a counterpart of medieval Christianity" and that "professor Duncan Macdonald even calls "Islam simply Calvinism!

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Original_womb/man. If your post was directed towards me, I am not doubting the middle east being the true origin of black man or woman.

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“The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)”

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The Arabs of the 7th century used letters as numbers. This alphabetical numbering system is called "Abjad." The merchants of those days had to know the letters of the alphabet to record their accounts! If Muhammad was a successful international merchant, as is universally accepted, then he most probably knew this numbering system. The Arabs stopped using the "Abjad" system in the 9th century when they took "Arabic numbers" from India.

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"Adjoining the Berber are the Abyssinians, the most numerous and powerful of the Blacks. From their country Yemen once had its kings. The king of the Abyssinians was entitled Al-Negashi, and the capital of his kingdom was the city of Kaber. The Abyssinians are Christians, but it is said that one of their kings embraced the true faith when Mohammed visited their country in the Hijra. They believe that they are destined to become masters of Yemen and all Arabia.

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
Actually I've had a theory for a while that all these religions were manipulated by Africans to their own advantage and this going back to ancient Greece.

See alTakruri's thread "Catholic Europe biggest Afronuts for Black Jesus and Mary"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002408;p=1


 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
The "Ethiopians" According to Diodorus Siculus

http://wysinger.homestead.com/diodorus.html

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and it is generally held that the sacrifices practised among the Ethiopians are those which are the most pleasing to heaven. As witness to this they call upon the poet who is perhaps the oldest and certainly the most venerated among the Greeks; for in the Iliad he represents both Zeus and the rest of the gods with him as absent on a visit to Ethiopia to share in the sacrifices and the banquet which were given annually by the Ethiopians for all the gods together:

For Zeus had yesterday to Ocean's bounds

Set forth to feast with Ethiop's faultless men,

And he was followed there by all the gods.

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Originally posted by markellion:
Do you know if Ibn Khaldun said that Mohamed traveled to Mecca? Is the bellow a mistranslation? I don't know what to think about it I'd appreciate anyone explaining the bellow to me. However I'm certain the Abyssinian king converting was pure propaganda

"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained"

http://books.google.com/books?id=380NAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA117#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Ibn Khaldun

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"Adjoining the Berber are the Abyssinians, the most numerous and powerful of the Blacks. From their country Yemen once had its kings. The king of the Abyssinians was entitled Al-Negashi, and the capital of his kingdom was the city of Kaber. The Abyssinians are Christians, but it is said that one of their kings embraced the true faith when Mohammed visited their country in the Hijra. They believe that they are destined to become masters of Yemen and all Arabia.

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Dana I really appreciate this info you've provided for me. These findings are huge for me as a African American learning that many of the early Muslim predecessors were people of color too. Islam isn't about black or white either, but being raised in a racist society where your people were devalued and in many cases dehumanized, for me to learn what I'm learning is so fulfilling. I checked Amazon for Tariq's book also but it's still unavailable, so if you dont mind I really would appreciate if you could have him contact me, he and I have alot to rap about. Have you written any books on the subject yourself and are you Muslim? What are other sources you woud advise for me that have good sound info about this subject? Anyways, I'm gonna check out At Tabari's book and see what I can dig up, and many thanks again to you Dana, peace.

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Original_womb/man. If your post was directed towards me, I am not doubting the middle east being the true origin of black man or woman. My problem was Wesley Muhammad sayin Islam's origins being linked with Africa. The whole concept of Islam being attributed with Africa is false. If Wesley wants to say black people were the earliest members of the Muslim faith that's one thing, but to call them African is wrong. To say these people were black so they're African is wrong also. There are black people all over the world, Phillipines, India, Malaysia, Pakistan, Australia. These people cannot be called African just because they're black when they speak no African dialect, have no African culture and lived in no African lands. If you tell a black Indian he's African he'll most likely disagree and say he's whatever his people call themselves. This is the point I'm trying to make. So if Wesley Muhammad wants to call the early Muslims black skinned or dark skinned,that's one thing, but don't say African because that's not the case.

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Originally posted by markellion:
The black Arabs were supposed to have spread all over Bilad al-Sudan in Pre-Islamic times but they didn't do this after Islam.

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3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)

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at periods the Nubians gained the upper hand, as in 737 when Cyriacus, their then king, marched into Egypt with a large army to redress the grievances of the Copts. There is a record of an embassy sent by a king Zacharias in the 9th century to Bagdad concerning the tribute, .....

....Nevertheless, the Nubians were strong enough to invade upper Egypt during the reign of Nawaya Krcstos (1342-1372), because the governor of Cairo had thrown the patriarch of Alexandria into prison.

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The Negroes can also be proud of the fact that the single dead person over whom the Prophet ever prayed was their ruler, the Emperor of Ethiopia. He prayed for the Negus, while the Prophet was in Medina, and the tomb of the
Negus in Abyssinia

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They were Christians, it should be remembered, for many centuries, and although the flourishing Christian Empire of Nubia, with its seventeen bishoprics and its thirteen viceroyalties, all governed by priests, was not founded, as is commonly supposed, by the renowned Silco, " King of the Noubads and of all the Ethiopians," it was strong enough frequently to invade Egypt in defence of their oppressed Greek and Koptic fellow-Christians. So early as 640 a combined army of Nubas and Bejas, said to have numbered 50,000 men with 1500 elephants, penetrated as far north as Oxyrhynchus (the Arab Bahnosa) where such a surprising store of Greek and other documents was discovered in 1897. Cultured peoples with such glorious records, and traditions going back even to pre-Christian times (Silco and Queen Candace, contemporary of Augustus

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Originally posted by markellion:


These are the two things I'm looking for

1. Specific quotes about these ruling classes being "mixed"

2. Why the Arabians had little success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan after Islam

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Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
 
Again don't you think it is odd that it seems most of these migrations occurred before Islam?

yeah that is real odd that inhabitants not from the continent of africa migrated there before islaam. that strikes a big doubt about west africans (who by the way carry historical custodians called jeli). it is very impossible for some of their ancestors(zaghawa) to have came from the arabian peninsula and mixed with some of their other garamante-koromante-Ikaradan Teda-Krit, Ikaradan, Haratin, Koroma, Wakore, Gor'an, Wangara ancestors. i mean just because groups like the beja and zaghawa and tuareg and tibbu and some nubian groups have a bedouin lifestyle the real one(desert) does not mean that they traveled in the arabat. u know that place that the arabs got their name from. onmy if people just re-read the boast of the sudan over the bidhaan. aljahiz says in the addressment that he withheld the info of the sudaan(black nations) FROM A LETTER HE HAD WROTE CONCERNING THE BOAST OF THE PURE ARABS OVER THE MIXED ARABS FOR A REASON he addresses this near the end of his treatise of teh boast of the sudaan in which he says that the arabs stand with the sudaan(black nations)by virtue of the hadeeth of the arabian illiterate prophet alhi slm "i was sent to every black and red" he goes on to say that the blacks would be the first recievers of the message over the reds. unquote this can be seen in the fact that the arabs were dark skinned and the two places of hijrah were habesha and medina in which both inhabitants will be dark and that the only non quraishi dialect speaking king to embrace islam was from a dark skinned nation habesha.
he says that the boast is for the blacks and the arabs regardless if they like it or not. he says that the prophet of god looked at the world as such black or red and that nobody escapes this discription and that no one would agree that uthe arabs are red like the khorosaan, perians, turks, greeks, romans, spaniards, saqalibah, and franj. he says that hajar the mother of the arabs was from the qibt and they are from the sudaan(of the black nations).

1. Specific quotes about these ruling classes being "mixed"
marki mark most of the ruling classes in the sudaan(black nations are mixed with other nations)this is how they become huge in number. go ask any knowledgable african about his ethnic group. i was speaking with a ghanian and he was telling me how da-gambe are related to hausa. he himself said that it is odd how an african can go places far in the continent and find words and culture similiar to their own. this is because people have been moving for better lifestyle for a grip and mixed or created different styles. jahiz speaks of this when he says the zanj are closer to the habesh than the adnan to the qahtan. he says there is no argument just because teh sudaan speaks different language they are all one and that adnan labguage has nothing to do with qahtan. another thing that makes the subject matter difficult for students is constant time line jump of pre islaam to islaamic conquest. jawad ali says this in his book history of the arabs before islaam when the arabs conqured rome and perisan territory they intermarried with the locals of course and stopped dealing with the other black nations and naturally picked up the habits of the conqured nations in which dislike for black skin was normal until this day. this is a normal habit for red nations. this is easily seen in blacks from red nations and those from black nations. the mentality is not the same.
in morocco i hear nigger remarks all the time. blacky, sahrawi, azzi, aswad. the same thing because most of the inhabitants are red and that is how they roll. all the way to iraaq. they are mostly red but the more u go south near the black nations this does not exist because most of the people are of black complexion of course. the arabic is also purer and is not corrpted with foriegn words. teh sudaanic nations also use really old arabic words that are only found in the ancient arabic dictionaries. only black nations use black red yellow and green color schemes while this is very rare in teh red nations. teh culture is generally the same in the south from teh maghreb to teh mashriq. this is why assyrians, egyptians,jews,greeks,and romans called all the people south or in the peninsula kush or ethiopian or indians or arabs. they all had teh same connotation even well into the euro conquest of the carib islands when christo called the natives what?
indians
yemenis
fulani woman
we know they were not the same but to other nations they did not distinguish these people like no non british isler distinguishs between an irishman from a scotsman from a welsh or englishman. to outsiders it will be hard to distinguish. northern egyptians and n.lybians and n.tunisians and n.maghrebis are really reds and have a culture very similiar to southern euros. their accent is teh same just like a darfurian has an accent very similiar to a senegelese and not his more eastern countrymen like the beja or rashaida. the khadhraa(people of the north)as i call them have spanish, berber, french, german italian words. u will have to be on the ground to actually see these things.

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Why the Arabians had little success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan after Islam

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:

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Why the Arabians had little success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan after Islam

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there is specific instructions from a statement of the prophet (nisaa'e) he says "leave the habesha alone as long as they leave u alone"
this is why places like russia and west africa were not conqured

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The absolutely unambiguous evidence and unanimous agree of the early Muslim sources is that the Arabs abrupt stop was caused solely and exclusively by the superb military resistance of the Christian Nubians. That is what I call the Nubian Dam. The array of those early sources includes the two most important chronicles of early Islam, al-Tabari (d. 926) and al-Yaqubi (d. 905); the two best extant books on the Muslim conquests, al-Baladhuri (d. 892( and Ibn al-A tham al-Kufi (d. 926); the most central encyclopedic work of al-Masudi (d.956); and the two best early sources dedicated specifically to Egypt, Ibn Abd al-Hakim (d. 871) and al-Kindi (961).

On page 19 he quotes Al-Masudi The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)

Bellow on page 20:

This act carries a lot of weight for one cannot see any reason for the Arabs to praise the Nubians so highly, along with their admission of their own failure in the field of battle. At the same time it is a great tribute to the objectivity in the case of the Muslim sources, and it also enhances considerably the chances of the reliability of their accounts, at least about the Muslim expansion in other fronts, and perhaps much more beyond that. .

3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, Umar b Abd al- Aziz (Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives)

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2. Why the Arabians had little success spreading through Bilad al-Sudan after Islam

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In 1811 Mohammed Ali, a high ranking Albanian army officer serving the Ottoman Empire ousted the Governor of Egypt and appointed himself ruler. He remained nominally under Ottoman authority and was carefully observed by the British, who were determined to strengthen their position in North Africa. To begin with, Mohammed Ali pursued an independent domestic and foreign policy.

"Egypt may now almost be said to form part of Europe. It is on the high road to the Far East. It can never cease to be an object of interest to all the powers of Europe, and especially to England…"....

In 1820, with the encouragement of Britain, Mohammed Ali invaded Sudan in search of slaves and to keep his army occupied. The Funj sultanate was deposed. Southern Sudan was devastated and the Dinka still refer to the invasion as 'The time when the earth was spoilt'. Sudan was now under Egyptian rule.

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never was a man so falsely represented or so little understood as this petty Prince. In England we hear of his munificence, his power whereas he is merely upheld in the shadow of authority by the countenance of the English.

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
it is very impossible for some of their ancestors(zaghawa) to have came from the arabian

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(author notes on Ibn Sa'id)

He confirmed that during periods of strength Kanim expanded northward into the Sahara, rather than southward

page 44

From Ibn Sa'id 13th century

This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan. God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him...

page 98 by Ibn Khaldun talks about Takedda and the rest of the lands of the "veiled people"

In the year 1353, in the days of sultan Abul 'Inan [of Morocco], I went to Biskara on royal business and there encountered the ambassador of the ruler of Takedda at the residence of Yusof al-Muzani, emir of Biskara. He told me about the prosperous state of this city and the continual passage of wayfares and said: "This year there passed through out city on the way to Mali a caravan of merchants from the east containing 12,000 camels." Another [informant] has told me that this is a yearly even. his country is subject to the sultan of Mali of the Sudan as is the case at present with the rest of the desert regions known as [the land of] the veiled people

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Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek

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The Zulu tongue, as that of a conquering and superior race

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:



Fulani woman

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
if people just re-read the boast of the sudan over the bidhaan. aljahiz says in the addressment that he withheld the info of the sudaan(black nations) FROM A LETTER HE HAD WROTE CONCERNING THE BOAST OF THE PURE ARABS OVER THE MIXED ARABS FOR A REASON he addresses this near the end of his treatise of teh boast of the sudaan in which he says that the arabs stand with the sudaan(black nations)by virtue of the hadeeth of the arabian illiterate prophet alhi slm "i was sent to every black and red" he goes on to say that the blacks would be the first recievers of the message over the reds.

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Originally posted by Original_Womb/man:
why would anyone doubt that what we know as the Middle East could not have been the true origins of the Blackman/woman?

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that you read my treatise (kitab) on the refutation of the pure Arabs to those of mixed parentage,....But I did not mention in it anything about the boasts of the Sudan. So know, -
may Allah preserve you – that I postponed that intentionally. And you mentioned that you
would like me to write to you the boasts of the Sudan....

....Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to
us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us. .....

....And this is all that came to my mind about what the blacks could be proud about

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Abdul karem - you said - "1. Specific quotes about these ruling classes being "mixed"
marki mark most of the ruling classes in the sudaan(black nations are mixed with other nations)this is how they become huge in number. go ask any knowledgable african about his ethnic group. i was speaking with a ghanian and he was telling me how da-gambe are related to hausa. he himself said that it is odd how an african can go places far in the continent and find words and culture similiar to their own. this is because people have been moving for better lifestyle for a grip and mixed or created different styles. jahiz speaks of this when he says the zanj are closer to the habesh than the adnan to the qahtan. he says there is no argument just because teh sudaan speaks different language they are all one and that adnan labguage has nothing to do with qahtan. another thing that makes the subject matter difficult for students is constant time line jump of pre islaam to islaamic conquest. jawad ali says this in his book history of the arabs before islaam when the arabs conqured rome and perisan territory they intermarried with the locals of course and stopped dealing with the other black nations and naturally picked up the habits of the conqured nations in which dislike for black skin was normal until this day. this is a normal habit for red nations. this is easily seen in blacks from red nations and those from black nations. the mentality is not the same.
in morocco i hear nigger remarks all the time. blacky, sahrawi, azzi, aswad...."

which is exactly what I was trying to say so why were you arguing with me in the first place.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

By the way abdulkarem - This woman u posted is an Afar/Danakil - not a Fulani . They live mainly in Eritrea, Ethiopia, Djibouti, Sudan etc.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
which is exactly what I was trying to say so why were you arguing with me in the first place.

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One would assume that things would have become more north to south after Islam. This makes the idea of ruling classes mixed with Arabs throughout Africa seem all the more improbable

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y? the islamic movement is exactly what it is. ISLAMIC. for islam about islam and nothing but islam. y r u trying to interpret moves that was already accomplished. the point is to spread islam by practicing it's tenets. marriage bonds between ruling classes are exactly what they are and have nothiing to do with islam spreading unless it helps islaam. oduduwa who yoruba say is from the jazirat married into the indiginees to form the yoruba and its sub-branches then that does not have anything to do with anything except the yoruba nation. it does not make them exempt from hearing the message. if the quraishi arabs fought their own blood relatives to spread islaam how is someone with less blood ties going to help.
the issue i have with orientilist like you is the fact that if the arabs who are the most skeptical when it comes to arab bloodlines since time immoral never denied these peoples their claim and yes they have denied many claims to people who claimed to have come from a certain line then y would a dude who is straight from going to relate info from the speakers perspective. what does not sound right to you is not because it is not right but because you are not raised nor experienced in such culture to make it make sense. being an outsider raises eyebrows because regardless how objective u r being u still have a background in something other than the target group. u have to get in the field and live with teh people and talk their language and be bersed in their ways and practice their religion. other than that u will allways be an 3JAM and that is for real.
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
You think I'm talking about irrelevant things because bringing up the Islamic era when you are talking about earlier time periods. Yet I have not even heard an attempted explanation as to why they didn't simply continue spreading out like this after Islam. So I'd like to know why they didn't continue spreading like this

Edit: I wrote something else here but I didn't read thoroughly what you said. You did say it was because of military strength

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:

i dont see how thisis down playing anybody. the first generations were given orders and following them was expected. they were pushed back because the christian army was to strong.

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The absolutely unambiguous evidence and unanimous agree of the early Muslim sources is that the Arabs abrupt stop was caused solely and exclusively by the superb military resistance of the Christian Nubians. That is what I call the Nubian Dam. The array of those early sources includes the two most important chronicles of early Islam, al-Tabari (d. 926) and al-Yaqubi (d. 905); the two best extant books on the Muslim conquests, al-Baladhuri (d. 892( and Ibn al-A tham al-Kufi (d. 926); the most central encyclopedic work of al-Masudi (d.956); and the two best early sources dedicated specifically to Egypt, Ibn Abd al-Hakim (d. 871) and al-Kindi (961).

On page 19 he quotes Al-Masudi The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)

Bellow on page 20:

This act carries a lot of weight for one cannot see any reason for the Arabs to praise the Nubians so highly, along with their admission of their own failure in the field of battle. At the same time it is a great tribute to the objectivity in the case of the Muslim sources, and it also enhances considerably the chances of the reliability of their accounts, at least about the Muslim expansion in other fronts, and perhaps much more beyond that. .

3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, Umar b Abd al- Aziz (Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives)

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:

this is why places like russia and west africa were not conqured by war except by good islamic manners and intermarriage and business and good citizenship and truthfulness.

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As we see the northern lobe of Africa from the Bight of Benin to Abyssinia, with Muslim fringes in Equatoria, Somalia and Zanguebar, looped to Mecca by the girdle of Islam, it seems at first as if Reclus must be right.* But second sight shows its unity and vastness to appeal not to reason but to imagination. To assert, as did the author of Shall Islam Rule Africa? that this "half of Africa is as Islamic as Persia", is unwittingly to betray a client; it can almost be maintained that Persia's eight million Islamites do not include one real Muslim. They are Shiites or sectarians, the heterodox and schismatic rivals of Sunnite or orthodox Musulmans. In Africa this other shape of Islam, "if shape it may be called that shape has none, or substance may be called that shadow seems", recalls Milton's picture of death: "What seemed his head the likeness of a kingly crown had on". The supremacy of Sudanese Islam over Negro society is less a reality than a semblance. If material limitations permitted, nearly a hundred tribes could be cited that have accepted Islam only in name when they have not rejected it utterly*. This fact means that the southern line is broken at scores of points. It also means that the strategic centers behind the inner in- trenchments are rotten and sapped. Earth found the Hausa, a Saharo=Sudanese folk on the divide between the Chad and Sokotu basins, animated by little zeal. Lenz informs us that the Futa highlander and the Mandingo have adopted Islam in form or not at all. Brun= Renaud states that the Bambara and the Yolof themselves are mostly pagans. Bagirmi has merely been inoculated, multitudes of its tribes remaining pagans. Muhammad the Tunisian compared his fellow=religion- aries among Sudanese pagans to a ring in Saharan sands. In the Nile basin, from Khartum to Wadelai, Felkin and Wilson discovered the populations of Muslim Kordo to have scarcely any religious ideas; the Shilluk and their neighbors are only partly Muhammadan; and other Negroes — the Bari, Bongo, Dinka, Madi and Shuli — remain sheer heathen. If these source=regions of the Nile be under Muslim dominance, it is through Africanized Arabs extending their political power.

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*In Persia Islam has never really conquered the convictions of the people. One observer, Gobineau, giving the opinion of a sufi [Muhammadan mystic] has ventured to doubt whether the whole of Persia contains a single true Musulman.

Islam, if ever a living power in Persia, is such no longer. The derision with which the raising of the green banner for the holy war was received sufficiently shows this. A Muslim "crescentade" could not count on Persian help. The Sunni looks upon the Shiite Persian as a dog. an infidel. (Haines, Islam, pp. 202=203.) Professor D. B. Macdonald adds that Persia is sufi through and through. The Persian sufi calls himself a Muslim, but has no part in the Faith. (Am. Journ. of Sem. Languages, v. 12, no. 1, p. log note.)

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Originally posted by dana marniche:



In the book Fulani for example are called "Arabs". Though Fulani have mixed in recent times with Islamic Arabians they are probably ancestral to early Arabian peoples judging from rock art thought to be neolithic in both the Sahara and Arabian desert.

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Originally posted by markellion:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
which is exactly what I was trying to say so why were you arguing with me in the first place.

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abdulkarem3 was talking to me. Again my argument has been that there seems to be a historical movement northward even after Islam rather than the other way around as seen in "The Nubian Dam"

One would assume that things would have become more north to south after Islam. This makes the idea of ruling classes mixed with Arabs throughout Africa seem all the more improbable

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I explain the reason some Fulani consider themselves Arab.

regardless of what point others have made.

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Afro-Turks are often called “Arabs” in Turkey. They also refer to themselves as Arabs, at times. This has led to a situation in which “Arab” means “black.” Ege University Professor Ahmet Yürür explains. “For the Turks, Africa was only the northern part of the continent: from Egypt to Morocco. This part was of course under Arab influence. Turks were never really interested in the south of the continent. This is why this community has come to be called ‘Arab,’” he says.

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World Power and Military

Contemporaries recognized Borno as a world power. They had vast trading networks, a powerful military and a rich intellectual culture. Around 1512 Borno sent diplomats to the N. African-occupied Spain, they had an embassy in the Ottomans Empire, where the two countries had a treaty of, "friendship and commerce," and Borno also had close relations with Egypt.6 (496, v)

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In the Chad group the Hausa has spread farthest and acquired most usefulness. The vernacular of a numerous people, it offers a valuable medium of communication through vast districts on both sides of the Binwe and the Niger. In extent of use it surpasses all other languages in inner Africa, serving not only as the mother=tongue of millions but as a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa. Hausa is remarkable for simplicity, elegance and wealth of vocabulary. It stands among the world's imperial languages, magnificent, rich and sonorous, beautiful and facile in grammatical structure, enjoying a harmony in the forms of its words and a symphonic symmetry that few tongues can equal, and assured of prolonged existence and vast expansion. It is the Latin of Central Sudan.

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Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
 
[quote]Arabization" is linked to European colonialism so this has distorted local histories[quote/]yes and no. tariq makes agreat point in which the same time pan africanism came out arabization came out so those called africans and arabs, who are not versed in certain text, are no different than americans as yourself. they lack all the info found in the text. you consistantly use these translations and dont use the most important books such as the quraan or the ahadith or the oldest dictionaries or excerpts from the best of the poets and the explanations of the arab forefathers.

[]abdulkarem - you said "does anybody no what the turkish word is for 'nigger' is?"

I would be interested in knowing the answer[/]
it is arapi or what u would say in english arab. this explanation marki mark gave justu touched the surface. marki search in the youtube where a somalian descent host is traveling around italy and is addressed by a custodian of the place as a saracen. he told him that people would consider him a saracen or a arab. these words in the ligher skinned nations were common in allmost all times. kushi,moor, saracen,arab. these people know what they see and mean what they say. i constantly tell moroccans that i am pure aerican but because i am black and speak arabic they do not believe me and try to force me to say that i am arab and that i am from either NIGER,CHAD,MAURITANIA,THE GULF STATES, OR SUDAN. now these are modern day arabs with teh same syndrome. they beleive i am from the desert as all dark skinned arabs are automatically called sahrawi but he and his lineage could be from the city since allways. when u look at these people and talk with them and tell them that they dont look any different from a sub saharan they dont deny this. this stuff is pure culture so if you are a black dude who speaks english and wears westernb clothes and act western they automatically know u r european or american. i have problems making people beleieve that i am a pure american. sometimes i get in arguments, but this led to do more research and see exactly what this arab thing is and i found that its just a character and thats all. u can put other additives on ot butr it all boils down to the character. so many of the moroccans who have tried to battle me in the language for it(the language)is their weakness and they were defeated to find that a foriegner is more versed in their toung than they hence as one cab driver told "you have to be a pure arab, your features and your tounge." i am just a regular looking black dude. i have turkish friends and grew up with turks and know a few albanians and they do not deny the fact that blacks and(or) what they call the tawny moors are arabs. dont worry about thinking the black pop. of turkey or palestine or sudan or albania are actually from arab origin. the truth is a big yes. alot of people awnsered the call of jihad or went to hajj and stayed in these lands . the same is of the blacks who r not gnawa. they came as soldiers. call it propaganda or arabization or masturbation it wont mean anything here because if you speak the language and have darkskin and profess islam the people will beleive you are arab. i have heared light skin moroccans say this all the time because a big population are of spanish origin. this is known in the arab world. ive been to spain and they took me as moroccan. these things still linger in the lands in which these identities where founded so trying to bring something else just wont work
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
The name Arapi I know in Turk means Arab but what makes you thing is like another word for "Nigger", are you saying it has negative overtones. That would be interesting if it were true.

Second of all most black Americans have to tell Moroccans that they consider themselves black and not Arab or a Moroccan that was tryig to pass for something else. The same thing happened to me when i lived in France. That is only because people who are not literally black in North AFrica are not considered black there. That doesn't mean Arabs are considered "blacks".

On the other hand the early Arabians that went to Turkey were very dark and looked like Africans . They were called Kara Arapi or black Arabs so I guess that is where they have come to think most blacks are Arabs.
 

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Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
 
[quote]The name Arapi I know in Turk means Arab but what makes you thing is like another word for "Nigger", are you saying it has negative overtones. That would be interesting if it were true[quote]

peep this. arapi is a word for a dark skinned person. arapi from turks. kushi from jews, indian from cristo, melas from greeks is very common among light skin nations. the problem lie in modern peoples and their forefathers. does negro have the same meaning as it did in 16 century colonial british america.
u have experienced first hand what moroccans thought of you and u know very well what u are however the actual people who LOOKED JUST LIKE YOU came to these lands to conquer and trade and settle came under WHAT TITLE. henceforth u look like that. these r just names arab black ethiop kush whatever floats your boat buut they all point to the same people in the monds of the people themselves and FOREIEGNERS. was the song of roland pic portayer on crack
no they were not all like that but this image is stained in their history and no it is not a european conspiracy marki. if you are black and speak arabic game is over there is nothing u can tell these people because it is in their books and their oral histories. if u bring them knowledge from their own books u will win too much respect from their hoodlums to their professors. i have achieved more respect in the arab world in 5 min than i have in any western part of the world in my life. this hate black stuff is actually anti muslim in it's origin and nature. when the countdown goes off and aa's got to choose they will see how the light skin world view them regardless of any religious affliation or facial feature. thats how things are.
 

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Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
 
marki if u are talking about the first 3 generations of muhammad s nation then i told u. it it was an order not to engage militarily certain areas of the world unless it was absolutely neccesary. their headquarters wasto be the most influential parts of the world which happened to be in the possession of the roman and perisan empires at the time. y did the brits pull out of america when they could have easily assembled all their troops in the world to sqaush those farmers. they squashed spain and france but they couldnt handle a bunch of pinelanders and vagrants. this stuff is to preserve national interest. do u not see islam in west africa and please leave this their islam is not our islam and the culture is not their culture. go read maiser tarekh takrur and go see teh list of citizens of ghana mali and songhay and guess what they still there. they are wolof fulani wangara mande arabs tuareg hausa yoruba . these people spread into west africa capiche as wally would say
 

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
For anyone saying I have an isolationist view of history this is not true because I've already talked about influence of African Christianity over the Islamic world and the evidence seems to favor the view that the African Christians were the most powerful in the first few centuries. For one thing soldiers from different places in Africa were of the highest importance even before Islam and there is every reason to believe that they would be able to exert a good deal of influence. For proof of this see how the Christian Makurians were able to intimidate the Muslims so much

I should respect the Islam amongst various African and non-African peoples' but Islam is different from one group of Muslims to another. Islam was often spread amongst African by Africans themselves not always because of contacts with Arabs. However you grossly exaggerate the importance of the Koran or hadiths or whatever. In fact the Koran should be seen as being of no importance when it comes to these relations. You don't take into consideration how these conquests were financed and supported by various African nations.

See my previous post on "The Nubian Dam" I'll repeat these two bellow as reminders. While all these are flawed they do give important information. The key with these sources is to separate fact from bias

"Man, past and present" By Augustus Henry Keane 1900

http://books.google.com/books?id=DDwLAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA75&dq=#v=onepage&q=&f=false

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They were Christians, it should be remembered, for many centuries, and although the flourishing Christian Empire of Nubia, with its seventeen bishoprics and its thirteen viceroyalties, all governed by priests, was not founded, as is commonly supposed, by the renowned Silco, " King of the Noubads and of all the Ethiopians," it was strong enough frequently to invade Egypt in defence of their oppressed Greek and Koptic fellow-Christians. So early as 640 a combined army of Nubas and Bejas, said to have numbered 50,000 men with 1500 elephants, penetrated as far north as Oxyrhynchus (the Arab Bahnosa) where such a surprising store of Greek and other documents was discovered in 1897. Cultured peoples with such glorious records, and traditions going back even to pre-Christian times (Silco and Queen Candace, contemporary of Augustus

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at periods the Nubians gained the upper hand, as in 737 when Cyriacus, their then king, marched into Egypt with a large army to redress the grievances of the Copts. There is a record of an embassy sent by a king Zacharias in the 9th century to Bagdad concerning the tribute, .....

....Nevertheless, the Nubians were strong enough to invade upper Egypt during the reign of Nawaya Krcstos (1342-1372), because the governor of Cairo had thrown the patriarch of Alexandria into prison.

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
it does not make them exempt from hearing the message. if the quraishi arabs fought their own blood relatives to spread islaam how is someone with less blood ties going to help.

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In the early 13th century, the governor of Sijilmasa, which was the most important terminus of the trans-Saharan caravan routes in southern Morocco, sent a following letter to the king of Ghana who was by then the most powerful ruler in Western Africa:

We are neighbours in benevolence even if we differ in religion; we agree on right conduct and are one in leniency towards our subjects. It goes without saying that justice is an essential quality of kings in conducting sound policy; tyranny is the preoccupation of ignorant and evil minds. We have heard about the imprisonment of poor traders and their being prevented from going freely about their business. The coming to and fro of merchants to a country is of benefit to its inhabitants and a help to keeping it populous. If we wished we would imprison the people of that region who happen to be in our territory but we do not think it right to do that. We ought not to "forbid immorality while practising it ourselves". Peace be upon you.

Considering the contents of this letter, there is no doubt who had the actual control over the trade in the south.

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Page 40 quote from Yaqut 13th century


The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled

page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century


In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
[quote]The name Arapi I know in Turk means Arab but what makes you thing is like another word for "Nigger", are you saying it has negative overtones. That would be interesting if it were true[quote]

peep this. arapi is a word for a dark skinned person. arapi from turks. kushi from jews, indian from cristo, melas from greeks is very common among light skin nations. the problem lie in modern peoples and their forefathers. does negro have the same meaning as it did in 16 century colonial british america....

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The Oba of Benin only presented that Oduduwa, whom the Yoruba people claimed descended from the sky on chains, was actually a Benin fugitive prince, Ekalederan. Sans doubt, the presentation of the Oba of Benin apropos the origin of Oduduwa is too compelling to be ignored. Those arguing against it are only doing so for the sake of pride and for the preservation of the long held belief.

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Until Oba Akenzua II, no Oba of Benin attended any conference or meeting of Yoruba Obas. Such kind of pan Yoruba Obas meeting never existed in history as a pan Yoruba consciousness and state never existed. These meetings were not started until the late 1930s.Attempts by some Yoruba Obas in present day Ondo and Ekiti states to pay customary tributes to Omo n'Oba ,Uku Akpolokpolo,Oba Eweka II after restoration in 1914 were stopped by the British and prohibited. This shows that the British were not interested in such interactions. But in the late 1930's certain administrative changes were implemented by the British which divided Southern Nigeria into Western and Eastern provinces.

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The history of the great Benin Empire as a nation is the record of a state that was established 2300yrs before any contact was made with European inferior nation. The great Benin Empire made remarkable achievements in those pre-European years, in art, science, administration, technology, political organization, architectures, astronomy, town-planning e.t.c.

When the great Benin empire reached the zeniths of its power, it extended its boundaries and exercised power over all the west African lands bordering the entire stretch of the bight of Benin, from the mouth of the river Volta in the west and eastward to the present day Congo and to the delta of river Niger in the east e.g. Ghana, Republic of Benin, both across the borders of modern Nigeria. Onitsha on the Niger and many other cities such as Asaba, Agbor, Isele-Uku, Warri, Idah e.t.c. Many of these states and other cities owe their corporate existence to the ancient Benin Empire. The influence of the great Benin Empire was said to have even extended to the present day Sierra Leone in the west.

The legendary fame of the Great Benin empire was such that the name Benin had many meanings, e.g. there was Benin-city and Benin empire, Benin river close to the new Benin (Warri) and there is the bight of Benin and the Benin district comprising of Sapele and Warri. Beyond the Gulf of Benin, the great Benin Empire's legendary fame was indeed wide spread. Several European states heard about the empires might and civilized attitudes, many sought for it.

That a vast stretch of the West African coastline bears the name " BIGHT OF BENIN" is no accident of history. Even until these day, it quite evident and amazing how the cultural influence of the ancient Benin empire remains strong till today. An independent republic of former Dahomey in 1975 decided to change its name to the republic of Benin as a way of reconnecting its roots to Africa's once glorious kingdom. The republic of Togo on the other hand named some of her prestigious institutions after the great Benin empire e.g. Universite du Benin, Togo hotel du Benin e.t.c. President Gnassingbe Eyadema during his 1974 visit to Benin City openly stated that the Togolese people originated from the ancient Benin Empire. His open declaration was cardinal in the sense that it ended the historical dilemma that clouded the ancient Benin and present day Benin speakingYoruba influence on many West African nations. Today, the people of Onitsha across the Niger, the Isekiris, Urobos, Isian and Ijaws just to mention but a few all proudly trace their venerated royal lineages to the ancient Benin empire.

Lourenco Pinto, who captained a Portuguese ship that brought the so-called missionaries to Warri the ancient port of Benin in 1619, sent the below deposition to the Sacra Congregazione the instance of father Montelcone. " All the city of this African Empire are organized, large and harmonious. The streets run straight and as far as the eyes can see. The houses are large; especially those of the king, which is richly decorated and has, fine columns. The city is wealthy and industrious."

Before that period, the great Benin Empire had built a unique defensive wall around its principal cities. The magnitude and complexity of this great wall has qualified it to be entered in the Guinness Book of Records as the greatest earth moving work ever constructed by man. With an estimated total length in excess of 20.000km, the great Benin wall is the longest running military defensive network ever built by man.

Isn't it ironic that the people that once made up this ancient prestigious kingdom are now grouped along minority lines in the modern day Nigeria. No thanks to the British dubious invasion and subsequent amalgamation of over 200 ethnic nationalities that now make up one Nigeria.

Isn't it sad that the name of this over 3000yrs old empire does not even appear on Nigeria map these days, instead towns like Ogbomosho and Lagos originally named Eko which was founded by Benin military leaders now represent the glory of Nigeria's ancient cities.

The marginalization and the dubious miss-interpretation of the great Benin Empire's history have to end. It is time for African scholars and historians to engage in the challenging and vital task of re-constructing Africa's unifying history. During this process, every element of all ancient African empires should be given due respect and honor, without exhibiting the contemporary tribalist and colonial mentality/education that is tearing African apart.

Fellow Africans, let us not forget that Africa is the past, the present and certainly the future.

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
And the Queen of Sheba being black or green has nothing to do with this

BBC site

“World: Africa Searching for the Queen of Sheba”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/353462.stm

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Hidden in the Nigerian rainforest, the earthworks at Eredo are just a few hour's drive from Lagos.

The team from Bournemouth University, working with archaeologist Dr Patrick Darling, have completed a preliminary survey of the wall and ditch measuring 70ft high in places and around 100 miles long.....

...Love story
But more intriguing still is the suggested link to the Queen of Sheba, one of the world's oldest love stories

According to the Old Testament, the Queen, ruler of Saba, sent a camel train of gold and ivory to King Solomon.

Solomon wooed and married the queen after she became overwhelmed by the splendour of his palace and their son began a dynasty of rulers in Ethiopia.

The Bible dates the queen's reign to the tenth century BC and modern scholars have speculated that a link between Judea and an ancient African queen led to the emergence of Judaism in Ethiopia.

In a tale closely linked to that in the Bible, the Koran describes the Queen as a sun worshipper based in the Arabian peninsula who was converted to Islam.

Arabian legend names the queen "Bilqis" and links her to the incense trade which was then a source of great regional power. …

…The region's long history of gold and ivory trade and the cultural importance of eunuchs linked to royal households further support the Sheba link.

"I don't want to overplay the Sheba theory, but it cannot be discounted," said Dr Darling.

"The local people believe it and that's what is important.

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William Smith found, in 1726, that “the greatest kingdom in Guinea is that of Benin”....Equinano, an Ibo, reported that the Benin kingdom was the “most considerable” in all of Guinea, “both as to extent and wealth”

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Read page 161 to read more about grammar:

This alliteration, this repetition of the inflecting prefix of the noun, is the interlocking switch of Bantu. It prevents the very children from using bad grammar. Such intricacy of structure finds no parallel in any other linguistic family, except Gor and Mande in West Africa. The principle of alliterative concordance offers one of the most astonishing phenomena in human culture


The beauty, plastic power and richness of Bantu languages delight and amaze all. They possess almost limitless flexibility, pliancy and softness. Their grammatical principles are founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis. Their vocabularies are susceptible of infinite expansion. They can express even delicate shades of thought and feeling. Perhaps no other languages are capable of greater definiteness and precision. Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek. Livingstone characterized as witnesses to the poverty of their own attainments men who complain of the poverty of Bantu languages. Bentley, after referring to the flexibility, fulness, subtlety of idea and nicety of expression in Kongoan, accredits this wealth of forms and ideas to the Bantu family in bulk. The wide sway of these qualities points out their immense practical importance to civilization. Three languages may be taken as the English tongue of their respective spheres. Zulu stretches from Natal to Nyasa, Swahili from Zanzibar well=nigh across equatorial Africa, and Mbundu (Ngolan) from Portuguese West Africa far eastward. In French Kongo the Fan (Mpangwe) and in Belgian Kongo below Livingstone Falls the Kongoan are strong developing factors. But Zulu, Swahili and Mbundu form representative and standard languages for the south, the east, the west. The unity in variety of Bantu speech, its flexibleness, power of growth and molding give ground for the belief that the best elements of the best languages may be embodied in a language classic, complete and one

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The Bantu languages, in fact, are rather more closely related one to the other—even in their extremest forms—than are the Aryan languages. This is so much the case that a native of Zanzibar can very soon make himself understood on the Congo, while a man of the Cameroons would not be long before he grasped the vocabulary of the Zulu. This interesting fact must play a certain part in the political development of Africa south of the fifth degree of north latitude. The rapidity with which the Kiswahili tongue of Zanzibar—a very convenient, simple, and expressive form of Bantu speech— has spread far and wide over East Central Africa, and has even gained a footing on the Congo, hints at the possibility of the Bantu Negroes at some future time adopting a universal Bantu language for inter-communication.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

Most of the Arabian migrations mentioned by Africans refer to long before Islam and Christianity and took place before the time of the Biblical Joshua over 1200 years B.C..

This is how the legends related to Gobir (Geber), Odudawa (Dedan) and Lamrudu (Nimrud) and Yarob (Yarob or Yarab) came to Bornu and why the Hausa and Yoruba have them.

---

However, as I've said many times, I am very weary of African peoples (or any peoples outside Southwest Asia) who claim Southwest Asian origin or heritage especially when it is convenient for their 'Abrahamic' faith.
 

---

Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
 
Tarig Berry, now here is a real genius. You google this clown and nothing comes up save this one half literate book. Just more of the same old song and dance. Ignorant people spouting afrocentric garbage to other mindless people.
 

---

Posted by awlaadberry (Member # 17426) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Tarig Berry, now here is a real genius. You google this clown and nothing comes up save this one half literate book. Just more of the same old song and dance. Ignorant people spouting afrocentric garbage to other mindless people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Do you have a personal problem with certain tribes in the area you call "Africa" being of Arab origin? For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Tarig Berry, now here is a real genius. You google this clown and nothing comes up save this one half literate book. Just more of the same old song and dance. Ignorant people spouting afrocentric garbage to other mindless people.

---

Hammer,

I'm Tariq Berry. You sound quite bitter and angry. Did I harm you in any way or say something that you don't like? What is your problem exactly? You said that I'm ignorant. Do you know me to know whether I am ignorant or a genius? Have you ever seen me or spoken to me? Who are you and why do you feel that you can decide who is ignorant or a genius? Do you have a personal problem with certain tribes in the area you call "Africa" being of Arab origin? For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS). Do you have a problem with that? Do you choose to call him a liar? If so, why? Do you feel that you know more about who he is descended from than he does? What makes you think this? Perhaps you don't believe him because you have a misconception about what the Arabs of the past looked like. You won't know anything about what the Arabs of the past looked like and how they described themselves unless what the Arabs of the past said about their appearance is translated for you. You are at the mercy of those who can translate for you, therefore you should show a little respect toward them (those who can translate for you).

---

quote:

---

Am I right? We Arabs have a saying which runs:

There are 4 types of people.

1. He who knows and knows that he knows. That is
a learned person, so ask him.

2. He who knows and doesn't know that he knows.
That is a forgetful person, so remind him.

3. He who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't
know. That is an ignorant person, so teach
him.

4. He who doesn't know and doesn't know that he
doesn't know. That is a fool, so keep him
away from you.

---

^ Definitely #4 is the category Hammeredbrains fits into.
 

---

Posted by awlaadberry (Member # 17426) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Tarig Berry, now here is a real genius. You google this clown and nothing comes up save this one half literate book. Just more of the same old song and dance. Ignorant people spouting afrocentric garbage to other mindless people.

---

Hammer,

I'm Tariq Berry. You sound quite bitter and angry. Did I harm you in any way or say something that you don't like? What is your problem exactly? You said that I'm ignorant. Do you know me to know whether I am ignorant or a genius? Have you ever seen me or spoken to me? Who are you and why do you feel that you can decide who is ignorant or a genius? Do you have a personal problem with certain tribes in the area you call "Africa" being of Arab origin? For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS). Do you have a problem with that? Do you choose to call him a liar? If so, why? Do you feel that you know more about who he is descended from than he does? What makes you think this? Perhaps you don't believe him because you have a misconception about what the Arabs of the past looked like. You won't know anything about what the Arabs of the past looked like and how they described themselves unless what the Arabs of the past said about their appearance is translated for you. You are at the mercy of those who can translate for you, therefore you should show a little respect toward them (those who can translate for you).

---

Mr. Berry Don't mind Hammered. He is just a foolish redneck who knows nothing about world history outside of Europe and the only thing he knows about Africa are antiquated Euro-imperliast colonial lies. This guy denies that the ancient Egyptians (who were obviously Africans) were black and instead spouts this nonsense of African Cacasians! This despite the mountains of evidence both historical and scientific that we have cited here in this forum everyday for the past half decade or so that he has lingered in this forum! LOL

quote:

---

Am I right? We Arabs have a saying which runs:

There are 4 types of people.

1. He who knows and knows that he knows. That is
a learned person, so ask him.

2. He who knows and doesn't know that he knows.
That is a forgetful person, so remind him.

3. He who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't
know. That is an ignorant person, so teach
him.

4. He who doesn't know and doesn't know that he
doesn't know. That is a fool, so keep him
away from you.

---

^ Definitely #4 is the category Hammeredbrains fits into.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Do you have a personal problem with certain tribes in the area you call "Africa" being of Arab origin? For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS).

---

Ethnic groups being of Arabian origin is entirely different from a few Arabs marrying into royal families.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Tarig Berry, now here is a real genius. You google this clown and nothing comes up save this one half literate book. Just more of the same old song and dance. Ignorant people spouting afrocentric garbage to other mindless people.

---

Hammer,

I'm Tariq Berry. You sound quite bitter and angry. Did I harm you in any way or say something that you don't like? What is your problem exactly? You said that I'm ignorant. Do you know me to know whether I am ignorant or a genius? Have you ever seen me or spoken to me? Who are you and why do you feel that you can decide who is ignorant or a genius? Do you have a personal problem with certain tribes in the area you call "Africa" being of Arab origin? For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS). Do you have a problem with that? Do you choose to call him a liar? If so, why? Do you feel that you know more about who he is descended from than he does? What makes you think this? Perhaps you don't believe him because you have a misconception about what the Arabs of the past looked like. You won't know anything about what the Arabs of the past looked like and how they described themselves unless what the Arabs of the past said about their appearance is translated for you. You are at the mercy of those who can translate for you, therefore you should show a little respect toward them (those who can translate for you). Am I right? We Arabs have a saying which runs:

There are 4 types of people.

1. He who knows and knows that he knows. That is
a learned person, so ask him.

2. He who knows and doesn't know that he knows.
That is a forgetful person, so remind him.

3. He who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't
know. That is an ignorant person, so teach
him.

4. He who doesn't know and doesn't know that he
doesn't know. That is a fool, so keep him
away from you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by King_Scorpion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hammer:
Tarig Berry, now here is a real genius. You google this clown and nothing comes up save this one half literate book. Just more of the same old song and dance. Ignorant people spouting afrocentric garbage to other mindless people.

---

Hammer,

I'm Tariq Berry. You sound quite bitter and angry. Did I harm you in any way or say something that you don't like? What is your problem exactly? You said that I'm ignorant. Do you know me to know whether I am ignorant or a genius? Have you ever seen me or spoken to me? Who are you and why do you feel that you can decide who is ignorant or a genius? Do you have a personal problem with certain tribes in the area you call "Africa" being of Arab origin? For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS). Do you have a problem with that? Do you choose to call him a liar? If so, why? Do you feel that you know more about who he is descended from than he does? What makes you think this? Perhaps you don't believe him because you have a misconception about what the Arabs of the past looked like. You won't know anything about what the Arabs of the past looked like and how they described themselves unless what the Arabs of the past said about their appearance is translated for you. You are at the mercy of those who can translate for you, therefore you should show a little respect toward them (those who can translate for you). Am I right? We Arabs have a saying which runs:

There are 4 types of people.

1. He who knows and knows that he knows. That is
a learned person, so ask him.

2. He who knows and doesn't know that he knows.
That is a forgetful person, so remind him.

3. He who doesn't know and knows that he doesn't
know. That is an ignorant person, so teach
him.

4. He who doesn't know and doesn't know that he
doesn't know. That is a fool, so keep him
away from you.

---

Welcome. I hope you can add much to our discussions. I'm wondering about your opinion on something though. Is it not true that many Muslims during the Medieval period claimed descendency that maybe wasn't really theirs? Don't overlook the conversion phase that had to have taken place in West Africa during the rise of Islam. It's more powerful for a ruler to say he is the descendent of the prophet or of his family when trying to convert the masses than to just come off as a believer. Which Mansa Musa really was...a devout muslim. He wasn't a muslim in name only for economic and foreign policy purposes.

My point is, something like this should be looked at more critically than literally. Is it possible he could have had that ancestry? Sure. Is it also possible it was a very clever medieval public relations (PR) attempt to make conversion run smoother?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Abu Isa:
[QB] Awlaadberry, Assalaamu alaikum. My name is Abu Isa, I am glad you posted a reply to "Hammer" because I have been trying to find a contact point for you for a few weeks now, so alhamdulillah I'm glad I finally get to contact you. I have ordered your book from Amazon 2 weeks ago today and I still haven't gotten any word if they're going to get the book soon or not. I've called the customer service about 5 times now for my book but they give me the same answers. Anyways, how are you? I find the information in your book fascinating. I only saw a few excerpts from some blogs of Dana Marniche and I've been searching for your book ever since. I'd like to dialogue with you and maybe even see if I can purchase the book from you first hand so that maybe insha'Allah I can get it sooner. I have alot of questions to ask you, if you don't mind I'd like to send you my email address so we can dialogue or maybe I can send you the message through this site. Let me know if it's o.k and then I'll send my questions and other things I'd like to discuss with you. Assalaamu alaikum. [/


QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
Could you give the source of the story?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
This story. It would be typical of colonial propaganda to distort a story like this. You yourself mentioned that we are at the mercy of translations.

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
For example Mansa Musa said that he is a descendant of Ali ibn Abi Talib, the cousin of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS).

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families. Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around? Especially before the Islamic period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families. Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around? Especially before the Islamic period.

---

What about entire armies of Arabs entering what you call Africa? I'm sure you are aware of the fact that this happened. What about the tribes of Banu Sulaym and Banu Hilal entering the area?
When you say "Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around", do you mean like the Habash (Abyssinians) who entered Arabia? But those Habash (Abysinnians) themselves were originally from Arabia. And why do yu feel that that way makes more sense? Wouldn't you agree that the general movement in the area was from east to west. You know that none of the tribes in the area originated across the Atlantic Ocean. Right? BTW, what do you mean by "Africans"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

Thank you King_Scorpian. Concerning your question, we have no reason to disbelieve or doubt these peoples' tradition of Arab origin and accuse them of lying about their origin for some reason. If we disbelieve everyone's tradition of origin, how can we ever know anything about the origin of any people. We didn't live in the past, so we have to believe what someone related to us. So why not believe what the people say about themselves? Why the disbelief and doubt? Is it strange for these people to come from Arabia? Is Arabia some remote place from the area you call Africa? Take a look at a map and observe how close Arabia is to the area. Isn't it strange to believe that no groups crossed over from Arabia? Do people who doubt these traditions believe that the area you call Africa was off limits to those in Arabia??? Why the doubt and why don't they doubt the traditions of Arab origin of people in places like Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, or Algeria for example? Or people in Syria or Iraq for example. It's all political. You have to understand that there are some historians and anthropologists who simply don't want those people to be of Arab origin and they will do anything to dispel their traditions of Arab origin. This is why you find them accusing them of lying about their Arab origins for religious reasons or whatever. Bear in mind that there are also non-Muslim tribes that have traditions of Arab origin. What must be understood is that there are historians and anthropologists who for political and other reasons do not want those people to be of Arab origin and do not want it to be true that the original Arabs were a dark-skinned people with kinky hair like those people with traditions of Arab origin in the area called Africa.

---

Again, I do not doubt any Arab migrations into Africa. I do doubt the claims made by some African elites which I think is done for ashraf-like reasons either to make themselves closer to Muhammad if they are Muslim, or to make themselves closer to Jews if they are Jewish or Christian (closer to Jesus).
 

---

Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
I can't find the story about Mansa Musa being related to Ali ibn Abi Talib and even if Mansa Musa did claim he had him as an ancestor European colonists probably later distorted the story. I think it is disturbing that people don't think this is more closely related to European colonialism.

There is a ton of information that Africans had allot of movement and probably traveled to Arabia more than the other way around

Where in this book can I find the story about Ali ibn Abi Talib maybe I just looked over it



Edit: I don't remember it being in this article either but mabye I just overlooked something

"HISTORY, ORAL TRANSMISSION AND
STRUCTURE IN IBN KHALDUN'S CHRONOLOGY OF
MALI RULERS"

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/1887/2778/1/1241586_032.pdf
 

---

Posted by awlaadberry (Member # 17426) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
I can't find the story about Mansa Musa being related to Ali ibn Abi Talib and even if Mansa Musa did claim he had him as an ancestor European colonists probably later distorted the story. I think it is disturbing that people don't think this is more closely related to European colonialism.

There is a ton of information that Africans had allot of movement and probably traveled to Arabia more than the other way around

Where in this book can I find the story about Ali ibn Abi Talib maybe I just looked over it



Edit: I don't remember it being in this article either but mabye I just overlooked something

"HISTORY, ORAL TRANSMISSION AND
STRUCTURE IN IBN KHALDUN'S CHRONOLOGY OF
MALI RULERS"

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/1887/2778/1/1241586_032.pdf

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
No this is a different book. I do not have your book "The Unknown Arabs"

Do you see mention of your claim in the article about Ibn Khaldun's Chronology of Mali Rulers?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
[QB] I can't find the story about Mansa Musa being related to Ali ibn Abi Talib and even if Mansa Musa did claim he had him as an ancestor European colonists probably later distorted the story. I thinkit is disturbing that people don't think this is more closely related to European colonialism.

There is a ton of information that Africans had allot of movement and probably traveled to Arabia


more than the other way around

Where in this book can I find the story about Ali ibn Abi Talib maybe I just looked over it [I

MG]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71NZZYNEY1L._SL500_AA240_.gif[/IMG]
Edit: I don't remember it being in this article either but mabye I just overlooked something

"HISTORY, ORAL TRANSMISSION AND
STRUCTURE IN IBN KHALDUN'S CHRONOLOGY OF
MALI RULERS"

https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/1887/2778/1/1241586_032.pdf [

/QB]

---

quote:

---

Despite the increasing interest in translation in the last two decades, there has been no investigation of the translation of historiography and its transformation from one language to another. This article takes as a case study the translation into French of Ibn Khaldûn, the fourteenth-century North African historian. It considers specifically the translation done by William de Slane in the context of the colonization of Algeria. The Histoire des Berbères, the French narrative of Ibn Khaldûn that relates to the history of Arabs and Berbers in the Maghreb, has become since then the source of French knowledge of North Africa. It is upon that French narrative that colonial and post-colonial historians have constructed their knowledge of North Africa, of Arabs, and of Berbers. The article shows how a portion of the writing of Ibn Khaldûn was translated and transformed in the process in such a way as to become a French narrative with colonial categories specific to the nineteenth century. Using a semiotic approach and analyzing both the French text and its original, the article shows how colonialism introduced what Castoriadis calls an "imaginary" by transforming local knowledge and converting it into colonial knowledge. In showing this the essay reveals that not only is translation not the transmission of a message from one language to another, it is indeed the production of a new text. For translation is itself the product of an imaginary, a creation-in Ricoeur's words, a "restructuring of semantic fields."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
Did this man simply marry into an already existing royal family? What exactly is the story behind this? Your not saying that he started the ruling class or whatever are you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
[QB] On this thread you already mentioned that we are at the mercy of translators. European colonialists could easily distort this story and make it seem like more than it really is

The translator can change the meaning of a few words and create a whole new story to fit what the translator wishes

"Translation and the Colonial Imaginary: Ibn Khaldun Orientalist", by Abdelmajid Hannoum © 2003 Wesleyan University.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3590803

quote:

---

Despite the increasing interest in translation in the last two decades, there has been no investigation of the translation of historiography and its transformation from one language to another. This article takes as a case study the translation into French of Ibn Khaldûn, the fourteenth-century North African historian. It considers specifically the translation done by William de Slane in the context of the colonization of Algeria. The Histoire des Berbères, the French narrative of Ibn Khaldûn that relates to the history of Arabs and Berbers in the Maghreb, has become since then the source of French knowledge of North Africa. It is upon that French narrative that colonial and post-colonial historians have constructed their knowledge of North Africa, of Arabs, and of Berbers. The article shows how a portion of the writing of Ibn Khaldûn was translated and transformed in the process in such a way as to become a French narrative with colonial categories specific to the nineteenth century. Using a semiotic approach and analyzing both the French text and its original, the article shows how colonialism introduced what Castoriadis calls an "imaginary" by transforming local knowledge and converting it into colonial knowledge. In showing this the essay reveals that not only is translation not the transmission of a message from one language to another, it is indeed the production of a new text. For translation is itself the product of an imaginary, a creation-in Ricoeur's words, a "restructuring of semantic fields."

---

[/

QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
Did this man simply marry into an already existing royal family? What exactly is the story behind this? Your not saying that he started the ruling class or whatever are you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Tariq - thank God or Allah I found you. At last. LOL. People have been looking for you and your book?

Can we still get it somewhere. Also, there have been some rumors going around about ur origins. I know that u are an Arab and consider urself black but where were ur parents born. Because I had read that u were from the Persian Gulf somewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
I have to be skeptical about this Ali ibn Abi Talib thing because for one thing colonialism was biased in favor of Arab lineage especially when it comes to ruling classes. Just because this happens to go along with colonial bias doesn't mean its wrong but there are several books that don't mention this. Why would these books not mention this? Can you show the quote from the books you are talking about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
Did this man simply marry into an already existing royal family? What exactly is the story behind this? Your not saying that he started the ruling class or whatever are you?

---

Have you ever heard of the Idrissis in Morocco?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
Did this man simply marry into an already existing royal family? What exactly is the story behind this? Your not saying that he started the ruling class or whatever are you?

---

Have you ever heard of the Idrissis in Morocco?

---

The reason that I asked if you have ever heard of the Idrissis in Morocco is because what Idriss did in Morocco is the same as what his brother - the ancestor of Mansa Musa - did in Mali. They both started kingdoms. Do you believe that the Idrissis in Morocco are descended from Ali ibn Abi Talib? The ancestor of the Idrissis in Morocco is Idris the son of Abdella the son of El Hasan the son of El Hasan the son of Ali the son of Abi Talib. The ancestor of Mansa Musa is Salih the son of Abdella the son of Musa the Black the son of Abdella the son of El Hasan the son of El Hasan the son of Ali the son of Abi Talib. As you can see Mansa Musa's ancestor Musa the Black was the brother of Idris. Musa the Black was nicknamed the Black because of the intensity of his blackness and his brother Mohamed - the ancestor of the other Sharifs (noble descendants of the Prophet Mohamed (SAWS)) was nicknamed The Charcoal because of the intensity of his blackness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Awlaadberry Never heard of you before this thread.. great insight and new information with you Abdulkarem3 and Dana marniche, would make a devastating team in matters concerning African/ Arab historiography..I think you should get on your publishers about a reprint.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
And why do yu feel that that way makes more sense? Wouldn't you agree that the general movement in the area was from east to west. You know that none of the tribes in the area originated across the Atlantic Ocean. Right? BTW, what do you mean by "Africans"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Awlaadberry Never heard of you before this thread.. great insight and new information with you Abdulkarem3 and Dana marniche, would make a devastating team in matters concerning African/ Arab historiography..I think you should get on your publishers about a reprint.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
And why do yu feel that that way makes more sense? Wouldn't you agree that the general movement in the area was from east to west. You know that none of the tribes in the area originated across the Atlantic Ocean. Right? BTW, what do you mean by "Africans"?

---

With the power and influence of these African empires I would think they would be traveling more to Arabia than the other way around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
And why do yu feel that that way makes more sense? Wouldn't you agree that the general movement in the area was from east to west. You know that none of the tribes in the area originated across the Atlantic Ocean. Right? BTW, what do you mean by "Africans"?

---

With the power and influence of these African empires I would think they would be traveling more to Arabia than the other way around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans...

...Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in Abyssinia in pre-Islamic times from southern Arabia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by awlaadberry:
Markellion,

What's the relation between what El Idrissi (12th century) said about Mansa Musa's ancestors saying that they are descended from Ali ibn Abi Talib and the European colonists? You said that there are several books that don't mention this. This is what I meant when mentioned to Hammer being at the mercy of those who can translate. Why some people chose not to translate it is a good question. As I said before, many historians and anthropologists don't want these people to be of Arab origin.

I don't have the time to copy all of the quotes from the books, but here is one from El Idrissi's The Description of Maghrib, Sudan, Egypt, and Andalusia. Describing Mali, he says: "Its people are Muslims and its king is described as being a descendant of Salih the son of Abdella the son of Hasan the son of Ali the son of Abi Talib".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Read Dierke Lange's work on the link I gave you.

---

quote:

---

- Ibn Munabbet (738) 'counts the Zaghawa as belonging to the Sudanese peoples';

- Idrisi (12th century) 'depicts them as negro camel riders who occupied the area between Fezzan and Chari, Xaouar and Darfour'.

- Ibn Khaldoun (14th century) 'includes the Zaghawa as part of the black kingdoms of the Sudan.'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by markellion:
Ivan Van Sertima "Golden Age of the Moor".

He talks about the Zaghawa pages 130-132. I don't see any connection between them and Yemen in this book

http://books.google.com/books?id=gAC81Tsh2bwC&lpg=PP131&pg=PA131#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Something else on Zaghawa:

"The question of the Iron Age in Africa"

http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/phpbb/ftopic2396.php


[QUOTE]

- Ibn Munabbet (738) 'counts the Zaghawa as belonging to the Sudanese peoples';

- Idrisi (12th century) 'depicts them as negro camel riders who occupied the area between Fezzan and Chari, Xaouar and Darfour'.

- Ibn Khaldoun (14th century) 'includes the Zaghawa as part of the black kingdoms of the Sudan.'

---

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:
Most African tribes of the Sahel and Sudan claim an eastward origin- Markellion. Ur thinking is frankly anti-historical besides being anti- African.

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Markellion, to quote a "orientalist" in his views of Islams origins is like asking a klansmen to tell me the life story of Shaka Zulu. Yes the Prophet (peace be upon him)was aware of the righteous Christian king in Abyssinia, and yes some early Muslims had to take refuge in there country due to the persecution they received for saying there is nothing worthy of worship except Allah,the Lord of the worlds, but to say that because of these factors,the Abyssinians had to have played a factor in any aspects of the views or beliefs of the religion of Islam is way off the mark.

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Originally posted by Abu Isa:
Now, I know Muhammad peace be upon him had dialogue (through letters the Prophet ordered written)with the Negus or king of Abyssinia. Muhammad called him a fair, just religious man and recommended the oppressed companions to migrate to Abyssina because the Muslims would have justice and religious freedom there under the laws of the fair king. When this king died Muhammad (peace be upon him) prayed for this man. Some say this king actually converted to Islam which is why Muhammad prayed for him when the Negus died, as he (Muhammad peace be upon him)didn't pray for non Muslims who died after he was commanded to refrain from doing this after his beloved uncle died.

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Do you see what I mean about too many Tarzan movies Markellion!

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Originally posted by markellion:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Do you see what I mean about too many Tarzan movies Markellion!

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Why did you say this it makes no sense to me

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

Should I have said too much Shaka Zulu?!

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The beauty, plastic power and richness of Bantu languages delight and amaze all. They possess almost limitless flexibility, pliancy and softness. Their grammatical principles are founded on the most philosophical and systematic basis. Their vocabularies are susceptible of infinite expansion. They can express even delicate shades of thought and feeling. Perhaps no other languages are capable of greater definiteness and precision. Grout doubts whether Zulu — the purest type of a Bantu dialect, the lordly language of the south, the speech of a conquering and superior race — is surpassed in forming derivatives by German or Greek. Livingstone characterized as witnesses to the poverty of their own attainments men who complain of the poverty of Bantu languages. Bentley, after referring to the flexibility, fulness, subtlety of idea and nicety of expression in Kongoan, accredits this wealth of forms and ideas to the Bantu family in bulk. The wide sway of these qualities points out their immense practical importance to civilization. Three languages may be taken as the English tongue of their respective spheres. Zulu stretches from Natal to Nyasa, Swahili from Zanzibar welNnigh across equatorial Africa, and Mbundu (Ngolan) from Portuguese West Africa far eastward. In French Kongo the Fan (Mpangwe) and in Belgian Kongo below Livingstone Falls the Kongoan are strong developing factors. But Zulu, Swahili and Mbundu form representative and standard languages for the south, the east, the west

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Originally posted by markellion:
Dana, could you give your opinion on this:

"African Christianity influence on Islam"

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002561

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
I am a arabic speaker i cant understand Magribi arabic that well they have there own slang just as Iraqeen have there slang but Magribi is the worst to understand from all other arabic speakers.

Mr. Berry u dont even know me to now what i dont know and what i do it seems u are the unknown arab trying to be known so please show me the names and tribal names of these unknown arab u speak about every shaab has a Qayama

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Mr. Berry i will read your book my friend i am not against anything u are saying.

I think u misunderstood me about Magribi first let me give u an example Nubians Mahas and Kanuz of southern egypt speak arabic but they are not true arabic speakers never ever have been. Beja whether Bishari or Ababda have become arabized meaning they were never arab speakers just like pakistani are not arab speakers but many pakistani claim Quiershi decent u tell me.

My family does the same thing we claim prophet muhammed decent threw Abu Amr Ibn Saidi ibn Abu Talib but we dont acknowledge our other heritage and lineage the same for Magribi,Sudanese and other north africans.

Im tired of fake lineages claiming decent as if arabs or jews have royal blood.

Magribi arabic is the hardest to understand ask any arab speaker from the arab world this does not mean that magribi are less arab i never said anything like that i just said many arabic speakers and islamic followers are really not original speakers of arabic just like the Mahra even egyptians of modern day egypt in yemen jamal in masri gamal why u think this is in alot of socalled arabs and arabic speakers who are not originally arab speakers.

U ask me Mr. Berry Do you know anything about the Arab tribes of Morocco.

Mr. Berry Do u Know anything about the Non-Arab Tribes of Morrocco.

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
My family does the same thing we claim prophet muhammed decent threw Abu Amr Ibn Saidi ibn Abu Talib but we dont acknowledge our other heritage and lineage the same for Magribi,Sudanese and other north africans.

Im tired of fake lineages claiming decent as if arabs or jews have royal blood.

Magribi arabic is the hardest to understand ask any arab speaker from the arab world this does not mean that magribi are less arab i never said anything like that i just said many arabic speakers and islamic followers are really not original speakers of arabic just like the Mahra even egyptians of modern day egypt in yemen jamal in masri gamal why u think this is in alot of socalled arabs and arabic speakers who are not originally arab speakers.

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
What i mean by that is socalled Nubians have there own language just like Beja are muslim and speak arabic now but they are originally Te-Bedawi speakers have nothing to do with arabic.

Abu Amr is related to Musa al-Quadim who is related to Abdullah bin Muhammed al-Bakir 5th in decent to the prophet Muhammed. maybe this can clear up for u.

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Mr. Berry u are the scholar so explain to me so i can understand who are the pure arabs if there are any.

To me arabs are consider those of Adnani and Qahtani meaning just a hand fool of tribes who could not of became the arabs of today without concubines from non arabs.

Actually to me the Children of Abu Jahl are the Arabs and Muslims of Today

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
So Mr. Berry are Somali,Eritreans,Ethiopians,Djboutins,and Sudanese similar in appearance to those ancient arabs u speak about and could these tribes be related to Horn of Africans as well as North Africans

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
i will read the book inshallah

allah bedafek

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
nice i see how magribi accent differs from egyptian and sudanese of course we all understand eachother when we speak Quranic arabic i have seen it between two pakistani imams who dont even speak arabic but they communicate with me threw quranic arabic thank you ya habub

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Okay, Mr. Berry, Dana or anyone else just make this clear for me..

From what I understand, the Adnani (al Arab al Mustaribah) are the northern Arabs who were foreigners who became 'Arab' by mixing in with the original populations and that the Qahtani (al Arab al Aribah) were those original Arab populations, correct?

So then who are the 'perished Arabs'? I understand they were ancient Arabians also, but are largely no more. Are these peoples older than even the Qahtani and are therefore aboriginal??

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Originally posted by alTakruri:
These designations even get confused in the Arabian
authors own works.

Today the majority of Arabs are al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah,
i.e., people settled in Arabia who have Arab language and
Arab culture but no verifiable Arab clan lineage whether
from Ishmael (mixed al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah) or the pure
al-'Arab ul-'Aribah South Arabian "Kushites" of the oldest
civilization and blood line Qahtaan Arabs who did in fact
disappear long ago leaving very few progeny that haven't
been infused with either Adnan and/or Ishmael Arabs.

But then some say the "Perished Arabs" were even earlier
than those of the Qahtaani claiming al-'Arab ul-'Aribah status.

Then what of Ad, Tamud, Himyar, etc. Do they make
Qahtaan (Yaq*tan in the Torah?) out to be no more than
Mustaribes who eventually became Mutaaribes?

Dare we mention Habashat?

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

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Originally posted by markellion:
But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families. Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around? Especially before the Islamic period.

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What about entire armies of Arabs entering what you call Africa? I'm sure you are aware of the fact that this happened. What about the tribes of Banu Sulaym and Banu Hilal entering the area?
When you say "Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around", do you mean like the Habash (Abyssinians) who entered Arabia? But those Habash (Abysinnians) themselves were originally from Arabia. And why do yu feel that that way makes more sense? Wouldn't you agree that the general movement in the area was from east to west. You know that none of the tribes in the area originated across the Atlantic Ocean. Right? BTW, what do you mean by "Africans"?

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Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families. Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around? Especially before the Islamic period.

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What about entire armies of Arabs entering what you call Africa? I'm sure you are aware of the fact that this happened. What about the tribes of Banu Sulaym and Banu Hilal entering the area?
When you say "Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around", do you mean like the Habash (Abyssinians) who entered Arabia? But those Habash (Abysinnians) themselves were originally from Arabia. And why do yu feel that that way makes more sense? Wouldn't you agree that the general movement in the area was from east to west. You know that none of the tribes in the area originated across the Atlantic Ocean. Right? BTW, what do you mean by "Africans"?

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See this thread:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=002617

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:

But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families.

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The Tarikh al-Sudan says: "As for the first king Zai El-Aiman (the founding father of the Songhai tribe), the origin of the expression (Zai El-Aiman) is 'He has come from Yemen.' It is said that he and his brother left the Yemen and traveled about Allah's earth until destiny brought them to the ancient land of Songhai.This happened during the time of the Pharoahs."

The Journal of Negro History says:


.... "Now Kokia was a town of the Songhoi people situated on the banks
of a river, and was very ancient. It existed in the time of the
Pharaohs, and it is said that one of them, during his dispute
with Moses, sent thither for the magician whom he opposed to the
Prophet.

"The two brothers reached the town in such a terrible state of
distress that their appearance was scarcely human; their skins
were cracked by the heat and dust of the desert, and they were
almost naked. The inhabitants questioned them concerning the
country of their origin, and their names have been forgotten in
the surname with which their reply provided them, 'Dia min al
Jemen'--'Come from Yemen,' And Dialliaman the elder settled in
Kokia..."

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Originally posted by markellion:
Concerning the Songhay the story is that a person from Yemen came and killed a god-fish and thus became a ruler of an already established people. The person came to the country dirty and hungry but he becomes a king, it is a rags to riches story

The author of "Timbuktu the Mysterious" wrote about this and admitted there was allot of confusion.

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Originally posted by markellion:

But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families.

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Originally posted by markellion:

But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families.[/qb]

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The tranquillity of Egypt (which had lasted since the Roman conquest) was rudely disturbed in the seventh century by the lieutenants of the first Khalifs; and the country received a shock that would fully justify such an exodus. The conquerors were dazzled by the richness of these territories, as the letter sent by Amru to the Khalif Omar amply proves. It was a magnificent quarry to the starveling Arab, and the distress of the vanquished must have been in proportion to the enthusiasm of the conquerors. The Lower, Upper, and Middle Egypts were all overrun towards the year 640. Possibly the Songhois suffered more than others from this invasion. Perhaps they refused to receive Islamism. My learned friends, the marabuts, being the official representatives of Mohammedanism, would naturally not have admitted this reason, and the historical manuscripts are dumb upon the subject. Their compilers of three centuries ago were likewise marabuts, and the silence of both is very likely to have been actuated by the same motive. In any case, the habitual methods of the conquering Arabs, their brutality and cupidity, would in themselves sufficiently account for the flight of a people as peaceful and industrious as the Songhois have remained to this day.

...Was Dialliaman the promoter and leader of this emigration ? The character would harmonise with the picture the Tarik has drawn of the adventurer who raised himself to the throne of a country he had entered naked and hungry. His native land was Yemen, the recent birthplace and centre of the Mohammedan religion. He may have quarrelled with the early disciples of the Prophet, or he may have quitted Arabia in order to escape the violence of their propaganda. Finding himself once more face to face with the fanatics in the country of his adoption, he would naturally resolve upon a new exile to more remote countries, and would depart, accompanied not merely by his brother, but leading a whole people with him....

page 95:

...Finally, in the country of Bourrousu, near the city of Gao,1 local tradition preserves the arrival in these parts of an Egyptian Pharaoh, who is probably none other than Dialliaman, or the leader of the Songhoi emigration.

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Originally posted by markellion:
Other things I've read say that the Songhay claim themselves to be ancient on the Niger river and there is allot of material I need to digest. Maybe the culture has Egyptian/Nile origins as suggested by "Timbuktu the Mysterious" but I don't remember reading anything about Yemeni origins. The very material that you presented showed a handful a few brothers who came from Yemen to an already ancient and established culture

What if someone from the Democratic Republic of the Congo came to my town and became mayor?

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Originally posted by markellion:
The very material that you presented refutes the idea that Songhay were founded by people from Yemen

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Originally posted by markellion:
Because these people were ancient and already established when the Yemeni guy arrived and killed the fish god

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Originally posted by markellion:
The problem is paraphrasing of these stories so you make something new that wasn't intended by the author of the text. You've already said that we are at the mercy of translations

The author of "Timbuktu the Mysterious" was the person that came up with the exodus idea but there is nothing to indicate that there is anything to this except guessing, and he admitted that this was not part of the official story.

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You won't find these things translated into English by others. You won't even find them taught in Arabic.

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Originally posted by markellion:
This is absurd you act like this is such concrete fact but there are several books that don't even mention this. This in itself is not the problem because it could still be very true, but it took you awhile to give a specific reference/quote as if you don't need to support your claims but you need to support your claims

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:
You won't find these things translated into English by others. You won't even find them taught in Arabic.

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Originally posted by alTakruri:

These designations even get confused in the Arabian authors own works.

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Today the majority of Arabs are al-'Arab ul-Musta'ribah, i.e., people settled in Arabia who have Arab language and Arab culture but no verifiable Arab clan lineage whether from Ishmael (mixed al-'Arab ul-Muta'aribah) or the pure al-'Arab ul-'Aribah South Arabian "Kushites" of the oldest civilization and blood line Qahtaan Arabs who did in fact disappear long ago leaving very few progeny that haven't been infused with either Adnan and/or Ishmael Arabs.

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But then some say the "Perished Arabs" were even earlier than those of the Qahtaani claiming al-'Arab ul-'Aribah status.

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Then what of Ad, Tamud, Himyar, etc. Do they make Qahtaan (Yaq*tan in the Torah?) out to be no more than Mustaribes who eventually became Mutaaribes?

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Dare we mention Habashat?

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

Hi Djehuti. We shouldn't characterize the Northern Arabs as "foreignors". They were no less Arab than the Southern Arabs. They are simply a different type of Arab that formed later than the Southern Arabs.

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Concerning the "Extinct Arabs", they are the old Arabs who no longer exist as tribes like Aad and Thamud. Yes, they (the extinct Arabs) are older than the other types of Arabs. And all types of Arabs are desended from Sam the son of Noah (AS).

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by markellion:
[QB] Whats interesting here is the emphasis on the Songhay being ancient.

[QUOTE]

Why do you find that interesting?

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by awlaadberry:
[qb]
Hi Djehuti. We shouldn't characterize the Northern Arabs as "foreignors". They were no less Arab than the Southern Arabs. They are simply a different type of Arab that formed later than the Southern Arabs.

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Originally posted by argyle104:
dana marniche,


What do you mean by mixed? How many people from another group does it take to make a population mixed? Give us the numbers.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

Hi Djehuti. We shouldn't characterize the Northern Arabs as "foreignors". They were no less Arab than the Southern Arabs. They are simply a different type of Arab that formed later than the Southern Arabs.

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They were different in what way?

quote:

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Concerning the "Extinct Arabs", they are the old Arabs who no longer exist as tribes like Aad and Thamud. Yes, they (the extinct Arabs) are older than the other types of Arabs. And all types of Arabs are desended from Sam the son of Noah (AS).

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If the "Extinct Arabs" are even older than the Qahtani, then exactly how are they descended from Sam (Shem)? Were there any Arabians who traced descent from any other son of Noah, particularly Kam (Ham)?

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

"Now Kokia was a town of the Songhoi people situated on the banks
of a river, and was very ancient. It existed in the time of the
Pharaohs, and it is said that one of them, during his dispute
with Moses, sent thither for the magician whom he opposed to the
Prophet.

"The two brothers reached the town in such a terrible state of
distress that their appearance was scarcely human; their skins
were cracked by the heat and dust of the desert, and they were
almost naked. The inhabitants questioned them concerning the
country of their origin, and their names have been forgotten in
the surname with which their reply provided them, 'Dia min al
Jemen'--'Come from Yemen,' And Dialliaman the elder settled in
Kokia..."

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Originally posted by markellion:
awlaadberry What do you mean by Songhay being of Yemenis origins? By this do you mean some people from Yemen came and intermarried with the Songhay?

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

This is what was said about the Songhai in the book Taarikh Al-Fattash, which is the source for the history of the Songhai. So any ancient people that you are calling Songhai are from this origin.

Concerning the rulers of the Songhai Empire, this is what the Taarikh As-Sudan says about their origin

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:
The Tarikh Al-Fattash says:

The second of them was called Sughai the son of Baras and his wife was named Sara the daughter of Wahab. He was the grandfather of the tribe called Sughu (Songhai).

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:


"Now Kokia was a town of the Songhoi people situated on the banks
of a river, and was very ancient. It (it refers to the town of Kokia, right?) existed in the time of the
Pharaohs, and it is said that one of them, during his dispute
with Moses, sent thither for the magician whom he opposed to the
Prophet.

"The two brothers reached the town in such a terrible state of
distress that their appearance was scarcely human; their skins
were cracked by the heat and dust of the desert, and they were
almost naked. The inhabitants questioned them concerning the
country of their origin, and their names have been forgotten in
the surname with which their reply provided them, 'Dia min al
Jemen'--'Come from Yemen,' And Dialliaman the elder settled in
Kokia..."

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Originally posted by markellion:
The traveler you mentioned was probably the author of "Timbuktu the Mysterious" and other traditions exist concerning Songhay origins in oral histories ect.

What you showed of the books "Tarikh Al-Fattash" and the book "Taarikh As-Sudan" seem to contradict each other because they make different claims about kings neither seem to speak of more than just a few brothers coming to these people. It would have made more sense to me if there was a whole migration of people instead of individuals. As far as I know the first person that came up with the idea of more than a few individuals traveling to these people was the author of "Timbuktu the Mysterious" who admitted that this was guessing and that this did not exist in the original story.

As far as the "Taarikh As-Sudan" is concerned it speaks of a rags to riches story and the two brothers came to these people appearing "scarcely human" as they are so dirty and destitute from their journey Their is something fishy going on

quote:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

This is what was said about the Songhai in the book Taarikh Al-Fattash, which is the source for the history of the Songhai. So any ancient people that you are calling Songhai are from this origin.

Concerning the rulers of the Songhai Empire, this is what the Taarikh As-Sudan says about their origin

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Your claim is that the Songhay "tribe" came from a Yemeni named Sughai, and that later another person from Yemen came and founded the Songhay empire? And we no longer know the surname of this founder of the Songhay empire? And in between this tribal and imperial stage a very ancient city called Kokia was already founded

quote:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:
The Tarikh Al-Fattash says:

The second of them was called Sughai the son of Baras and his wife was named Sara the daughter of Wahab. He was the grandfather of the tribe called Sughu (Songhai).

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quote:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:


"Now Kokia was a town of the Songhoi people situated on the banks
of a river, and was very ancient. It (it refers to the town of Kokia, right?) existed in the time of the
Pharaohs, and it is said that one of them, during his dispute
with Moses, sent thither for the magician whom he opposed to the
Prophet.

"The two brothers reached the town in such a terrible state of
distress that their appearance was scarcely human; their skins
were cracked by the heat and dust of the desert, and they were
almost naked. The inhabitants questioned them concerning the
country of their origin, and their names have been forgotten in
the surname with which their reply provided them, 'Dia min al
Jemen'--'Come from Yemen,' And Dialliaman the elder settled in
Kokia..."

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quote:

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His emphatic rejection of any form of the "conquest hypothesis" carries parciular weight since he was writing relatively early, more or less on the spot geographically, and - a little curiously, we confess - he cited precisely the Almoravid/Ghana confrontation passage from Ibn Khaldun to prove his own anti-conquest opinion. More than two centuries later, as we shall soon see, this notorious passage would lead European scholars to draw a quite opposite conclusion concerning the same manner

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quote:

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A modern English translation of the relevant passage, for instance, is this:

Later the authority of the people of Ghana waned and their prestige declined as that of the veiled people, their neighbors on the north next to the land of Berbers, grew (as we have related). These extended their domination over the Sudan, and pillaged, imposed tribute (itawat) and poll-tax (jizya), and converted many of them to Islam. Then the authority of Ghana dwindled away and they were overcome by the Susu, a neighboring people of the Sudan, who subjugated and absorbed them.

Cooley’s own rendering of the same passage keeps the attention of the veiled people fixed more specifically on Ghana:

The people of Ghana declined in course of time, being overwhelmed or absorbed by the Molaththemun (or muffled people-that is, the Morabites), who, adjoining them on the north towards the Berber country, attacked them, and, taking possession of their territory, compelled them to embrace the Mohammedan religion. The people of Ghana, being invaded at a later period by the Susu, a nation of the Blacks in their neighbourhood, were exterminated, or mixed with other Black nations.

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
The problem is paraphrasing of these stories so you make something new that wasn't intended by the author of the text. You've already said that we are at the mercy of translations

The author of "Timbuktu the Mysterious" was the person that came up with the exodus idea but there is nothing to indicate that there is anything to this except guessing, and he admitted that this was not part of the official story.

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Markellion, I have no idea of what you are saying.

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quote:

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Markellion, I have no idea of what you are saying.

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In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery

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This approval of slavery was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex bull of 1455. These papal bulls came to serve as a justification for the subsequent era of slave trade and European colonialism

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The followers of the church of England and Protestants did not use the papal bulls as a justification for their involvement in slavery

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Virginia Slave Code (1705)

Web version: http://www.law.du.edu/russell/lh/alh/docs/virginiaslaverystatutes.html


October 1705 - 4th Anne. CHAP. KLIX. 3.447.

An act concerning Servants and Slaves...


IV. And also be it enacted, by the authority aforesiad, and it is hereby enacted, That all servants imported and brought into this country, by sea or land, who were not christians in their native country, (except Turks and Moors in amity with her majesty, and others that can make due proof of their being free in England, or any other christian country, before they were shipped, in order to transporation hither) shall be accounted and be slaves, and as such be here bought and sold notwithtanding a conversion to christianity afterwards…


XI. And for a further christian care and usage of all christian servants, Be it also enacted, by the authority aforesaid, and it is hereby enacted, That no negros, mulattos, or Indians, although christians, or Jews, Moors, Mahometans, or other infidels, shall, at any time, purchase any christian servant, nor any other, except of their own complexion, or such as are declared slaves by this act: And if any negro, mulatto, or Indian, Jew, Moor, Mahometan, or other infidel, or such as are declared slaves by this act, shall, notwithstanding, purchase any christian white servant, the said servant shall, ipso facto, become free and acquit from any service then due, and shall be so held, deemed, and taken: And if any person, having such christian servant, shall intermarry with any such negro, mulatto, or Indian, Jew, Moor, Mahometan, or other infidel, every christian white servant of every such person so intermarrying, shall, ipso facto, become free and acquit from any service then due to such master or mistress so intermarrying, as aforesaid…

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Originally posted by markellion:

quote:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

quote:

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Originally posted by markellion:
The problem is paraphrasing of these stories so you make something new that wasn't intended by the author of the text. You've already said that we are at the mercy of translations

The author of "Timbuktu the Mysterious" was the person that came up with the exodus idea but there is nothing to indicate that there is anything to this except guessing, and he admitted that this was not part of the official story.

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Markellion, I have no idea of what you are saying.

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The translation of "Taarikh As-Sudan" you showed said a random Yemeni came and founded an already existing ethnic group and at the same time said the Songhay had a very ancient city. Even if you disagree with me it should already be obvious what I'm saying

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
this missionary is impossible

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Markellion, I have no idea of what you are saying.

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i thought i was the only one. he keeps referring to euro-translations when ibn berry is translating for him. the crusader/missionary is going against known critics of genealogies such as the likes of suyuti and ibn khaldun. no genealogy scholar criticized the lineages of teh hausa and oyo kings and wolof and fulani and sughay and wankara and wakore. also the crusader does not understand arab family structure and how it works. this western creed sometimes find it hard to understand the trekks of banu maa'a. he is obviously the oswald of teh crusader euro strategy. divide conquer colonize. the crusaders amd their friends hate 3'rooba and the crusade edict of the pope shows

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In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery

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This approval of slavery was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex bull of 1455. These papal bulls came to serve as a justification for the subsequent era of slave trade and European colonialism

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what is teh romanus pontifix?

Romanus Pontifex[1] is a papal bull written January 8, 1455 by Pope Nicholas V to King Afonso V of Portugal. As a follow-up to the Dum Diversas, it confirmed to the Crown of Portugal dominion over all lands discovered or conquered during the Age of Discovery. Along with encouraging the seizure of the lands of "Saracens, pagans ... and other enemies of Christ", it repeated the earlier bull's permission for the enslavement of such peoples.

it is ironic that it is said

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The followers of the church of England and Protestants did not use the papal bulls as a justification for their involvement in slavery

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what does the english and their descendants have to say about these peoples brought to the americas

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Virginia Slave Code (1705)

Web version: http://www.law.du.edu/russell/lh/alh/docs/virginiaslaverystatutes.html


October 1705 - 4th Anne. CHAP. KLIX. 3.447.

An act concerning Servants and Slaves...


IV. And also be it enacted, by the authority aforesiad, and it is hereby enacted, That all servants imported and brought into this country, by sea or land, who were not christians in their native country, (except Turks and Moors in amity with her majesty, and others that can make due proof of their being free in England, or any other christian country, before they were shipped, in order to transporation hither) shall be accounted and be slaves, and as such be here bought and sold notwithtanding a conversion to christianity afterwards…


XI. And for a further christian care and usage of all christian servants, Be it also enacted, by the authority aforesaid, and it is hereby enacted, That no negros, mulattos, or Indians, although christians, or Jews, Moors, Mahometans, or other infidels, shall, at any time, purchase any christian servant, nor any other, except of their own complexion, or such as are declared slaves by this act: And if any negro, mulatto, or Indian, Jew, Moor, Mahometan, or other infidel, or such as are declared slaves by this act, shall, notwithstanding, purchase any christian white servant, the said servant shall, ipso facto, become free and acquit from any service then due, and shall be so held, deemed, and taken: And if any person, having such christian servant, shall intermarry with any such negro, mulatto, or Indian, Jew, Moor, Mahometan, or other infidel, every christian white servant of every such person so intermarrying, shall, ipso facto, become free and acquit from any service then due to such master or mistress so intermarrying, as aforesaid…

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sounds like the same language to me i just dont recall the names negro and moor and indian being of english origins. maybe they are just another european conspiracy as the crudsader says.

i will admit that the internet and book info is redundant and small compared to what is amongst actual carriers of teh histories of the nations that make up the ancestry of aa's. in reality this is another attempt to fight the spread of islam and any device will be used because they are crusaders. they have their groups and allies and we are arabs and we have our group and allies. thats is real talk.

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The translation of "Taarikh As-Sudan" you showed said a random Yemeni came and founded an already existing ethnic group and at the same time said the Songhay had a very ancient city. Even if you disagree with me it should already be obvious what I'm saying

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
if you just have people who live in an area and are not organized as a nation then they can not be classified as a nation-state. the arabian peninsula dwellers were not organized as such until the prophet muhammed(saw) was sent to them, not as a king in which lineages are traced to him as is the case of all nation-state people on the continent.

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Respecting the Masufah, who were generally called el Takshif, that is, the scouts or couriers, and who appear to have occupied the whole road from Teghaza to Tomboktu, there is a passage in Ibn Khaldun (fol. 89) which, with a little abridgment, is worth transcribing.—" After the fall of the Morabite dynasty, the tribes of the Molaththemun returned to the desert, and now occupy the countries which they originally possessed in the vicinity of Negroland. But as we have already observed, the emigration of the Zenagah tribes was but partial: a few only of the Masfifah and Lumtunah obeyed the impulse, while the majority of the tribes remained behind, and keep in our days their old settlements in the Sahra, paying tribute to the Kings of Negroland, on whom they depend, and in whose armies they serve. The Goddalah are directly opposite to the DhawiHassan, a branch of the Moakel Arabs, settled in Siis el Aksa ; the Lumtunah are opposite to the Dhawi-Mansiir and Dhawi 'Obeidu-llah, branches of the same great tribe living in Maghrebu-l-Aksa. The Masufoh face the Zaghabah, an Arab tribe in Maghrebu-l-Ausat ; and the Lamtah adjoin the Benu Riyyah, who occupy Ez-Zab."—Thus it appears that the Masufah inhabiting the tract of desert between Sijilmesah and Tomboktu were in their old settlements, and, therefore, in the tract between Sijilmesah and Ghanah. (See page 17.) Leo (pt. I. c. 17-19) points out the situation of the various families of the Machil (Moakel) tribe of Arabs.

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Page 40 quote from Yaqut referring to the mid-12th century perhaps


The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government. One year the king, on his way to the pilgrimage, came to the Maghreb to pay a visit to the commander of the Muslims, the veiled king of the Maghreb, of the tribe of Lamtuna. The Commander of the Muslims met him on foot, wheras the king of Zafun did not dismount for him. He was tall, of deep black complexion and veiled

page 45 From Ibn Sa'id 13th century


In the same latitude is Zafun, which belongs to pagan Sudan and whose ruler enjoys a good reputation among (other) kings of the Sudan

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in that place i was engaged in the king's service at which time i performed ny duty faithfully. you inquired from me some time back my name i have given me on the coast of africa and i told you it was anna musa which in the english is moses, the name i have furthermore given me as a warrior was gorah condran. my father was one of the lords of the carsoe nation MY NATION, AND THE ARABIC, ARE ALL ONEthe king of the carsoe nation was demba saga-his daughter was married to arabic. i sincerly hope the good promises you have made to me speedily be accomplished, and , with god's blessings. i remained honored sir, yours repectfully benjamin cochran.
(words from the jamaican magistrate)-i have given this letter at length to show the description of persons that were taken in african warfare and sold into slavery

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the negroes from senegal are a handsome race of people in features resembling whites and with bodies tall and well limbed. MANY OF THEM CONVERSE IN THE ARABIC LANGUAGEand some of them are sufficiently instructed even to write it. they are excellent for teh care of cattle and horses and for domestic services though little qualified for the ruder labour of the field to which they never ought to be applied.

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And this is why in the Islamic era Arabs were restricted to the northern part of Africa and south of that they the faced certain restrictions while people could travel north and freely move as they please

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For West Africans, who had already had contacts with other peoples for centuries, the coming of Europeans was no cultural shock. Although the merchants and merchandizes were different, the fundamental pattern of economic and cultural exchange was the same in the Atlantic trade as it had been in the caravan trade. Similarly, it was another channel for West Africans to the outside world: in 1594 a Portuguese navigator reported that he had in Senegal met many blacks who were not only capable of speaking French but have even visited France.

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:

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And this is why in the Islamic era Arabs were restricted to the northern part of Africa and south of that they the faced certain restrictions while people could travel north and freely move as they please

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oh that is what i was missing wow this is very relevant to what the nations say themselves.

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I am the green one. Who knows me?

My skin is green. I am from the family of the Arabs

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Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
 
Your the one not getting the full picture how the hell do unorganized people from Arabia travel to Africa and establish organized states? What sense does this make? More logically organized people traveled from Bilad Al Sudan to Arabia

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
the arabian peninsula dwellers were not organized as such until the prophet muhammed(saw) was sent to them, not as a king in which lineages are traced to him as is the case of all nation-state people on the continent.

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
the ethiopian king was speaking to the quraishi refugee without a translator because like now u will find ethiopians who can converse and arabian peninsulars who speak non- quraishi form.

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Originally posted by abdulkarem3:
how the hell does unorganized people make a state is what you said. i ask how do unorganized dirt farmers beat the most military advanced army of their time in the american revolution? however you see it was pulled off.

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Maybe because it was the massive expense of maintaining the colonies?

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According to your stories some dirty distraught Yemeni comes and creates a great empire and he did so because and not despite him coming from an unorganized society (according to you)

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The king of Zafun is stronger than the veiled people of the Maghreb and more versed in the art of kingship. The veiled people acknowledge his superiority over them, obey him and resort to him in all important matters of government

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Saudi arabia is not a good place to claim who is arab and who is not because it is populated by non arabs then arabs.

Arabs became a large population by intermarring with non arabs this is a fact and known by everyone.

For instance alot of southern saudi arabia is occupied by different peoples and for a long time many africans would try to get to Mecca in old times ended up living there and not returning.

For instance if u go to saudi arabia to the city of adha u would think u are in the horn of africa mostly all horn of afrians somalians,eritreans,ethiopians,sudanese

awlaad i understand your point and i know that when a bedouin is ask what color he is he would never ever say white just as the same as in arabic culture al ayn al-azraq is associated with Rumi and europeans not amongst arabs.

I would have to agree with Markellion on the Songhay there is no way u can say they are of yemeni origin there king was maybe of yemen origin but they kingdom was still indigenous natives non arabs

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Songhai, Wangara, Wakore are not even names associated with yemen or even arabic. Awlaad if the songhai are from Yemen then Beja,Tigre,Amhara,Tigrinian are from yemen

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Songhai, Wangara, Wakore are not even names associated with yemen or even arabic. Awlaad if the songhai are from Yemen then Beja,Tigre,Amhara,Tigrinian are from yemen

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Aswaani I'm sure that there are plenty of pre-Islamic Himyarite and Arabic names in general that might sound non-Arabic to you. And yes, the Amhara, Tigre, etc ARE Yemeni tribes. They are from the Yemeni tribe of Habshet that entered the area in pre-Islamic times.

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Songhai, Wangara, Wakore are not even names associated with yemen or even arabic. Awlaad if the songhai are from Yemen then Beja,Tigre,Amhara,Tigrinian are from yemen

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Aswaani I'm sure that there are plenty of pre-Islamic Himyarite and Arabic names in general that might sound non-Arabic to you. And yes, the Amhara, Tigre, etc ARE Yemeni tribes. They are from the Yemeni tribe of Habshet that entered the area in pre-Islamic times.

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n his book Tarikh Al-Fattash, Mahmud Ka'ati says that the Songhai, Wangara, and Wakore are from the Yemen. Has someone come up with something which disproves this? Simply not believing it doesn't disprove it.

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Awlaadberry

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n his book Tarikh Al-Fattash, Mahmud Ka'ati says that the Songhai, Wangara, and Wakore are from the Yemen. Has someone come up with something which disproves this? Simply not believing it doesn't disprove it.

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Well the question of language has to be looked into if a case is being made for a whole-sale migration of the above mentioned people and not just a few displaced royals intermarrying with the locals..even if they are/were blacks.

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Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
Songhai, Wangara, Wakore are not even names associated with yemen or even arabic. Awlaad if the songhai are from Yemen then Beja,Tigre,Amhara,Tigrinian are from yemen

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We're talking about individuals forming tribes. And what must be understood is that tribes are formed by individuals. All members of a given tribe have a common ancestor, who is one individual. Do you understand what I'm saying?

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Yes I understand and I have no problem if it's an individual or even a small circle my point was if there was mass migration then something of language and cultural practice must be taken in to account.
 

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Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
 
Jari Ankamun What do u know about Moors.

There is no such thing as Moors no one in North africa ever called themselves that bullshit u have this fantasy of some magical moors who are nothing but foot soldiers for the Islamic Empire so dont talk about MOors its just the same as saying Niger,NIgeria,Nigga,Black,African etc

Moors is what they called blacks in those days mostly islamic footsoldiers from north africa and arabia even ethiopians from modern day ethiopia were called moors
 

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Posted by Recovering Afro-holic (Member # 17311) on :
 
Oh my goodness! We're now Arabs?! When does the madness stop?! One minute we're ancient Egyptians. Then we're ancient Greeks, then ancient Jews, then original Mexcians, original Chinese, original Japanese, then the real Native Indians, then original east Indians, the moors, and now Arabs?!

Gosh! What the hell is wrong w/you people?!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ There is nothing wrong with US! It is YOU who is mentally deficient! Egypt is IN Africa, thus they ARE Africans. Arabia is right next to Africa..

How about you get a clue already, or perhaps you are too stupid to get one.

Definitely you cannot refute what the author Tariq Awlaadberry (an actual Arab) has said can you??

So why don't you take your dumbass back to the Ancient Egypt section where trolls like you belong and leave the intelligent threads such as this alone.
 

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Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
 

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Oh my goodness! We're now Arabs?!

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who are we? u r definitely a negro. this forum is mixed.

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

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Originally posted by markellion:
But what I've been talking about is ethnic groups coming from Yemen as opposed to individuals marrying into royal families. Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around? Especially before the Islamic period.

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What about entire armies of Arabs entering what you call Africa? I'm sure you are aware of the fact that this happened. What about the tribes of Banu Sulaym and Banu Hilal entering the area?
When you say "Doesn't it make more sense that Africans traveled to Arabia more than the other way around", do you mean like the Habash (Abyssinians) who entered Arabia? But those Habash (Abysinnians) themselves were originally from Arabia. And why do yu feel that that way makes more sense? Wouldn't you agree that the general movement in the area was from east to west. You know that none of the tribes in the area originated across the Atlantic Ocean. Right? BTW, what do you mean by "Africans"?

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I believe that when talking about history and peoples, we should not use the words "Africa" or "African" because they really have no meaning.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Originally posted by awlaadberry:

Thank you King_Scorpian. Concerning your question, we have no reason to disbelieve or doubt these peoples' tradition of Arab origin and accuse them of lying about their origin for some reason. If we disbelieve everyone's tradition of origin, how can we ever know anything about the origin of any people. We didn't live in the past, so we have to believe what someone related to us. So why not believe what the people say about themselves? Why the disbelief and doubt? Is it strange for these people to come from Arabia? Is Arabia some remote place from the area you call Africa? Take a look at a map and observe how close Arabia is to the area. Isn't it strange to believe that no groups crossed over from Arabia? Do people who doubt these traditions believe that the area you call Africa was off limits to those in Arabia??? Why the doubt and why don't they doubt the traditions of Arab origin of people in places like Libya, Mauritania, Morocco, or Algeria for example? Or people in Syria or Iraq for example. It's all political. You have to understand that there are some historians and anthropologists who simply don't want those people to be of Arab origin and they will do anything to dispel their traditions of Arab origin. This is why you find them accusing them of lying about their Arab origins for religious reasons or whatever. Bear in mind that there are also non-Muslim tribes that have traditions of Arab origin. What must be understood is that there are historians and anthropologists who for political and other reasons do not want those people to be of Arab origin and do not want it to be true that the original Arabs were a dark-skinned people with kinky hair like those people with traditions of Arab origin in the area called Africa.

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Again, I do not doubt any Arab migrations into Africa. I do doubt the claims made by some African elites which I think is done for ashraf-like reasons either to make themselves closer to Muhammad if they are Muslim, or to make themselves closer to Jews if they are Jewish or Christian (closer to Jesus).

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Originally posted by Recovering Afro-holic:
Oh my goodness! We're now Arabs?! When does the madness stop?! One minute we're ancient Egyptians. Then we're ancient Greeks, then ancient Jews, then original Mexcians, original Chinese, original Japanese, then the real Native Indians, then original east Indians, the moors, and now Arabs?!

Gosh! What the hell is wrong w/you people?!

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Africa is a continent and Arabia is a peninsula. It doen's mean everyone in Arabia is of ancient Arabian descent just like there are plenty of people of Turkish, Bosnian, European adn Middle Esatern desert in North Afric. People have been moving and settling back and forth between Arabia and Africa for many thousands of years. Long before the entrance of people north of these latitudes.
People really need to start looking at the archeological evidence of human populations and settlement over the last the last several thousands years in Africa and elsewhere rather than just making assertions derived from nationalisms and Tarzan movies or what

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