WHEN ARABIA WAS “EASTERN ETHIOPIA” Part I By Dana Marniche
The Indigenous Populations of Arabia
In reality most dialects classified as Semitic are found in Ethiopia and these have been found to not deviate enough from the so called Cushitic language group to qualify as a separate linguistic group thus the terms Semitic and Hamitic have fallen into disfavour among modern linguists and other academics and the name AfroAsiatic has come to be used to comprise both language groups. In fact, the original culture of Abraham and early “Semitic” populations are widespread in Africa and even unmodified in some cases. Similarly deities that were venerated by Semitic speaking people of Asia, such as “the Aramaeans” and “the Akkadians” are still found among Ethiopians and other Africans.
The following quotes are from 19th and early 20th century Western historians, whom unlike today’s historians, understood the strong connection of the original Arabians with the Ethiopic peoples of Africa.
1869 “The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, are known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.” — The New Larned History for Ready Reference Reading and Research, 1922 citing F. Lenormant, Manual of Ancient History, bk. 7, ch. 2. published 1869.
1869 - “To the Cushite race belongs the oldest and purest Arabian blood, and also that great and very ancient civilization whose ruins abound in almost every district of the country….The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia. “ John Baldwin from Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity; Harpers 1869.
1881 “ A third body of the Cushites went to the north of the Egypt and founded, on the east of the Delta, the kingdom of the so-called Hyksos , whom tradition designated sometimes as Phoenicians sometimes as Arabians, and in both cases rightly…Lepsius has proved by excellent reasons the Cushite origins of the Hyksos statues from San (Tanis) now in the museum of Boulaq and has made more than merely probable the immigration of the Cushites into the region of the Delta…” p. 402 Heinrich Karl Brugsh in A History of Egypt Under the Pharaohs Derived Entirely from the Monuments, published by John Murray 1881, Vol 2, 2nd edition.
1872 - “Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.” Traditions, Superstitions and Folklore, Charles Hardwick , Manchester A. Ireland and Company, 1872
1891 - …the Cushite Arabians and the Chaldeans, the founders of the first historic civilization in Babylonia being certainly Hamitic, though early mixed with Semitic tribes, long before Assyrian rule. Charles William Hutson , The Beginnings of Civilization, The Columbian Publishing Co., New York. 1891.
1902 - “Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full, rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.” by Henry Field Anthropology, Memoirs Field Museum Press Anthropology, Memoirs Arabs of Central Iraq; Their History, Ethnology and Physical C haracters, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4,
1923 “There is a considerable mass of evidence to show that there was a very close resemblance between the proto-Egyptians and the Arabs before either became intermingled with Armenoid racial elements.” Elliot Smith p. 54 The Ancient Egyptians and the Origins of Civilization, p.61 2007, earliest publication 1923.
1948 - “In Arabia the first inhabitants were probably a dark-skinned, shortish population intermediate, between the African Hamites and the Dravidians of India and forming a single African Asiatic belt with these. From the Handbook of the Territories which form the Theatre of Operations of the Iraq Petroleum Company Limited and its Associated Companies, First Edition, Compiled in the Companies Head office at 214 Oxford Street London 1948.
By the middle of the 20th century, whether due to the corresponding withdrawal of European colonialists from many lands or the establishment of modern Europeans in Syria/Palestine and consequent flourishing of "Biblical archeology", many Western historians became less acquainted or familiar with the early documented history and genealogical traditions of the Arabian peoples. Meanwhile, the notion of a race of “black Caucasoids” had already been established in the late 19th century and the idea of different colored children of Noah that developed in the 1st centuries after Christ in Muslim and Judaeo-Christian tradition had come to permeate the interpretation of Afro-Asiatic or Arabian genealogy.
WHEN ARABIA WAS “EASTERN ETHIOPIA” Part 2
HOW THE AFRO-ASIATIC HERITAGE WAS NEARLY LOST
Most in the west are mainly familiar with images of high class and wealthy “Arabs”. African-looking Arabians that are indigenous are often isolated from the metropolises of Arabia where populations are descended from diverse intermixtures of the many peoples that have come to occupy the peninsula and the same latitudes of northern Africa. Both locations were well known regions of a flourishing slave trade where both “whites” and “blacks” came in large numbers as merchants, mercenaries or slave-soldiers, and slave-concubines from as far away as Bosnia and Central Asia in the North and Central East Africa in the South.
After the birth of Christ Iranian mercenaries (called the Ebna in texts) were entering the Yemen or southern Arabia by the thousands in the pre-Islamic era and in control of many of its major capitals. So began the modification of the appearance of the aboriginal peoples of a land once referred to as Kush, Canaan or Ethiopia and considered part of the Sudan well into the Midieval era (according to Richmond Palmer's, Bornu Sahara and Sudan). So also began the transference of falsification of the Afro-Arabian heritage to which we owe the racist deformation of the historical allegory of Ham, Shem and Japhet.
Astrocosmological Origins of the Noah Myth: Before the Curse of Ham
The idea that Ham, a son of Noah, was originally a white man who turned black because of a curse is an idea that came about from ancient non-Semitic people interpreting ancient Semitic allegory in their own way and ignoring its metaphysical basis. Bernard Lewis quotes a Christian Saint named Ephrem of Nisibis, Turkey, saying that Noah said, “Accursed be Canaan and may God make his face black,… whereupon the face of Canaan and Ham became black…” He also mentions Ibn Qutayba of Iraq who between 828 – 89AD asserted, “Wah ibn Munabbih said the sons of Ham were changed into blacks’ some of his children went to the West…Fut settled in India and Sind, Kush and Kan’an’s descendants are the various races of blacks: Nubians, Zanj, Qaran, Zaghawa, Ethiopians, Copts, and Berbers. (Kitab al-Ma’arif, ed. Tharwat Ukasha, 2nd ed. (Cairo, 1969) p. 26)’ ” found on page 124 in Race and Slavery in the Middle East. an Historical Enquiry, Oxford University Press, 1992.
The word Ham, Kham, Hammon, Ammon or Amun was the name of the hidden Sun from which sprang Ra or the light of the Sun. It is related to the name for the astronomical black hole known as he Bootes Void. The unknown void was called Mammon or Maimun and was also related to the name of the semi-mythical Memnon “king of Ethiopia”. Darkness or lack of illumination was associated with Mammon the deity of material desires. The word is possibly etymologically related to the term haram meaning sacred or forbidden in Arabian tradition, but is in any case definitely the “charma” in India which was sometimes represented by the black skin of a deer or oryx sacred to the “Indi” and probably to “Kama” the lord of physical or carnal desire. In Egypt Amun or Hammon which was named Kham was represented by a ram which symbolizes the heat of fleshly desire and virility. It is the instinctual will as opposed to higher will and illumination or Shem. Thus, Kham also has the connotation of heat or hotness.
Among the most ancient deities among Afro-Asiatics were Amm, Amun or Hammon, Sama, and Yacchus, Yahu or Jah and Yam. Yet, the tradition of Cham or Ham and Shem or Sam and Dyaus Pita or Jyapeti (which correspond to the totems of the Ram or oryx, the Lion, and the Horse in the Zodiac) are also part of ancient Hindu writings which say Charma, Sharma and Jyapeti or Dyaus Pita were children of MaNu (Nuah, who is also named Satyavarata). Charma got drunk with rice-wine and laughed at his father.
The caste and ethnic name of Charma or Chamar in India refers to leather-workers or tanners working with hides or skin of animals. Those who work with skin or hides, the Chamar are - not surprisingly - a subject or servile caste. In certain Indian ritual the yogis did sit on a sacred black deer skin sacred to Siva and Kama symbolizing the yogi’s submission or subjugation of the flesh or carnal aspects in their nature.
Closely related to the myth of Ham and Charma are the mytholgy in the Indic Iranian tradition related to Hauma, Haumavara and the land of Haumavaran – the latter being recognized as Himyar. Hauma (Sanskrit “Soma”) is the fermented drink just as Hamran referred to wine. Ham in the Arabic tradition was said to be “altered” “black mud”. Thus Ham, Hauma, Haumavar, Hamran, Humayr or Himyar thus would seem to have an etymological connection with things fermented.
The land of “Haumavar” or “Hamavaran” is associated with imprisonment as well as the maternal origins of many Indic-Iranian heroes and is the place where the ruler Kai Ka’us, Kavus or Kavi Usa of the Avesta son of Kai Kavata (or Kubad) and father of Siavus (or Sevaksh) set sail from the region of Makran to marry Sudabeh (in Arabian Sa’uda or Sudana daughter of Akk or according to al -Talibi daughter of of the Himyarite ruler Dhu’l Adh’ar) and was thrown there into prison by its king. (Sa'uda or Sudah is also called by al Masudi the daughter of Shammar king of Hamavar.)
Kavus' son Siavash signified by “the black horse” of the Sun and thus a representation of the Sun- God is possibly the Zaphon or Baal Zafan (or Typhon) of “semitic” or Hyksos-Canaanite tradition. He came to be associated with the donkey or ass cult in Egypt. There is also some apparent connection to the story of Joseph and his donkey or Zafnath of the Bible as well as to a Seva or Seba of Genesis. In the Book of Genesis (Bereshit) 10:7 Seva or Seba is the oldest son of Kush and his name is interestingly said to mean “imbibers of wine”. The Armenian patriarch John even claimed that Sievartik tribe (or Sevardik) had received their name from Seva son of Kush and reputedly claimed it meant “the black sons”.
King Kush, Ka’ush or Kavus known from ancient times also in Mesopotamia was possibly Kush Melekh. He and his Kavyan predecessors in Persia are connected with Kephus or Kepheus “ruler of Ethiopia” of later Greek mythology and ancestor to the early Persians whom were known as Kephenians. The name is said to represent Kaf or Kaph or Kawa divine mountain abode of the Gods representing the pole star. Kaveh or Kawa the deity of the mountain is called the smith among modern Kurds while Kavi Usana is the deity who makes the iron bolts of Indra in the Hindu texts.
The traditions of separate origins of man from Ham or Cham, Shem and Japhet emerged because the real meaning and significance behind the story or allegory of Ham and Sham and Japhet had been misunderstood by peoples who adopted early Afro-Arabian religious traditions. Just as skin covers the body of man the soil covers the body of the earth. The word Ham “the black altered earth” is etymologically related to Hamr or Hamran which in Arabia refers to the agriculturalists or those who care for and cultivate the earth as opposed to the wandering bedouin who are called Simran and are the caretakers or husbandman of the often subjugated Hamran. Hamran, which in the Bible is sometimes translated as Hamdan also signifies a vineyard. Africans spoke in proverbs and saw the natural world metaphorically in relationship to spirituality. In one of the gospels it is said “I am a true vine and my father is a husbandman.”
The symbolic aspects of the myth of Noah and curse of Ham refer to man’s subjugation, enslavement to the lower or carnal mind and nature, its illusory character and necessary subjugation in order to truly liberate oneself. Genesis 10 20-23 – “And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent…” The fact that all of the Israelites from Shem in the Bible are made to marry concubines of Canaan and Ham is also symbolic and reflection of the historical reality that Canaanites and Israelites were the same people. Canaan signified the lower aspect of the soul and Israel another name for Saturn signifying the striving for its perfection.
It is not a coincidence that Siavus in the Persian or Central Asian story is tempted or seduced by Sudabeh in the same manner as Joseph or Yusef also called Asaf in Arabian tradition was tempted many times by the wife of Potiphar. They were both falsely accused of trying to seduce powerful women. Genesis 39:7-8 “And it came to pass after these things, that his master’s wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said , lie with me , but he refused… and while Joseph (also called Zafnath - Genesis xli. 45) son of Jacob or Yacov, Siavus (Sevakush) is son of Kav’us or Kab’us. At the same time the ass or donkey is associated with the story of Joseph.
There is also evident connection with the myth and ritual surrounding Baal Zaphon or Typhon who is associated with the donkey or ass cult in Egypt – a legacy of the Hyksos invasion. Ba’al the ancient deity of the original Afro-semitic peoples is still a name for Lord among people like like the Mahra. The word Bali still means my Lord. Others have found a connection between the name of Ziph and Cepheus, in which case Cassiopeia would appear to be the Arabian queen Assiyeh whom is the Biblical Asenath married to Zafnath (Josef).
The mythos surrounding Joseph known as Asaf in Arabian tradition is related to the story of the Amalekite “shepherd kings” and their reign in Misra as Pharaohs. In the time of the Amalekite kings Qabus and Raian the ruler Asaf was placed in charge on the throne of Misra or Mizraim (a place which has been interpreted as the African Egypt but which possibly refers to the Misra or Masirah in Yemen). Many have indicated that the name Raian is very possibly the Hyksos name Ian Re while there is also a Yacob-Hor or mentioned on Egyptian scarabs.
Thus, the Hebraic allegory of Noah and his drunkenness is wrapped up in the early history of the Himyarites i.e. Sabaeans and their astronomical knowledge who came to be called “Kushites”, Cephenians, Keftiu in the later world. Their connection to heroes in Iran and Turan is related to the early rule of the “Hyksos” or Amalekites who ruled Saba came to rule and settle in Syria, Armenia and other parts of the Near East in the middle of the 2nd millenium B.C..
Most of the names of Ham’s children and descendants such as Mizraim, Hagar, Kedar, and Sud or Sudan who was sometimes called a son of Canaan (see below) have association with the earth or earthbound elements. Mizrah or Mizraim, (the Ethiopic and Hebrew Mitzraim Metzir or Medir or Mudir) is the early Eritrean or Ethiopian earth deity who is also called Mitra(male) and Mithra (female) in Indic- Iranian traditions - the mediator between heaven and earth. Hagar or Agar means the ploughable or arable earth or soil. Sawad or Sudan who is sometimes called a son of Kana’an means the cultivable or black earth. Kedar or Khadar was the name of a dark green iron and thus came to signify blackness or something that was strong “like iron”. Cana’an came to mean lowland, but also was symbolized by the dog or Cana’an lowly and servant of man.
According to Kamal Salibi and Arabian tradition Canaan was apparently “the lowland” of the Kenaniyya tribe in Arabia corresponding to the Yemenite area and southern Hejaz or Asir region an area running from south of Taif and Mecca. Circa 1000 A.D. an account of Kan’an b. Ham is found in Akbar al Zaman: “He was the eldest of Ham’s sons, and the first to corrupt the religion of Noah, peace be upon him….Among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan’an, are many nations, among them the Ishban, the Zanj, and many peoples that multiplied in the Maghrib, about 70 of them…..” from the French translation of the Akbar al Zaman : L’Abrege des Merveilles published 1898. Ishban in the Genesis of the Bible is a son of Dishon, brother of Dayshan, brother of Hamdan (or Hamran), Ethran and Cheran descendants of Zibeon, the Hivite or Canaanite. These correspond to well known Himyarite and Sabean clans Banu Jayshan, Hamdan, and Qaran, Zubyan (also Dhuban or Dhubyan) mentioned as late as early Islamic times in the Yemen. (see Yemen in Early Islam, p. 91 Abdal Muhsin Mad’aj, 1988). The name of the Hawt or Huthi may also be the Hevite. The Himyarites or Humayr and Canaanites are thus the same people.
Unfortunately, northern or Western and Near Eastern peoples who have tried to write themselves into ancient Semitic or Afro-Arab and Judaean history and genealogy took out much of the metaphysical and spiritual meaning of the allegory such as found in Genesis. The result was a void of meaningless nonsense about three different colored races that spread across the world. Even the name of Nuah’s ancestor Adam is said to mean “the resounding mud”, “black mud” or earth which links his name to the word Dum of India - an early name for gypsies meaning man and sound, and to Atum, of the ancient Nile and Tumal of East Africa and India and Tama of Central and West Africa who is the God of the smiths that mold the earth. Tumal was Tubal-C’ain, meaning the drummer smith. Tubal was regarded by gypsies as an ancestor. And it is surprising that in African myth, the smith or metallurgist was called “the first drummer.”
Today most people calling themselves Arabs living both within and outside the Arabian peninsula, both fair and dark-skinned, claim descent from either the tribes of Qahtan of southern Arabia or the descendants of Kedar and Ishmael whose mother was Hagar. The term Arab today includes peoples of Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and many places in Africa who speak Arabic. In Arabia and the Near East, as in Africa, these populations now include individuals ranging from black in color to a white with red hair. Between the 7th and 12th centuries many of the indigenous tribes from the Yemen are documented as settling in Syria/Lebanon Iran and Iraq. In Iraq, the “Azd tribe, for instance, with all of its clans in the Fertile Crescent traces its genealogy back to its settlement ancestry in Yaman.” These same groups also moved into and settled in Egypt and North Africa and were ancestral to many north African, Egyptian and Sudanese bedouin.
Both the early Qahtan (thought to be Joktan of the Bible) and the Ishmaelite groups were reputedly or referred to as “black” until the Midieval period of Europe. It is not generally known in the West that Arabia was (as the historian Cheikh Anta Diop suggested) essentially an Ethiopic colony until as late as several hundred years ago. Most of the purer or Afro-Arabian populations today though isolated and unfamiliar to Westerners exist within the peninsula under the same names they were known under in, in Biblical records and in texts written by Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Mesopotamian inscriptions and ancient mythology.
Archeology and the Afro-Arabian Cultural Landscape in Context
One important group of artistic depictions comes from the area of Jubba in northern Saudi Arabia. The numerous rock carvings there have given the name Jubba style to the type of artistic depiction. “A strong interregional interaction if not proper movement of people from Arabia to Ethiopia in the 3rd - 2nd millenium B.C. is supported by the occurrence of rock pictures in a typical style in both regions.” In the Horn of Africa where it is found sometimes called the Ethiopian Arabian style or Karora Style and by the 1st millenium B.C. is found in the African Sahara. Alessandra Avanzini, Profumi d’Arabia: Atti del Convegno, 1997 p. 281. It dates back according to some to at least 5,500 B.C. in northern Saudi Arabia. The style is characterized by long and short-horned bovids with body markings with bodies often represented with body in profile. Similarly, human figures are large and elongated in profile except for the waist up. The style of rock art is found all over northern Saudi Arabia also extends to the Wadi Dawasir region in the southern Nejd.
This rock art may have had something to do with the Obeid or Ubaid culture of Arabia which was well known in eastern Arabia and moved into Mesopotamia to form the first Mesopotamian cultures at Eridu. There are also links of this art to certain sites in early neolithic Turkey. As at Jubba goat or dog-headed people “ are quite common” there. So, an iconographical link seems to exist between the goat-headed hunters of Jubba, the T-lad M-headed anthropomorphs of the Latmos area and the "Ziegen-Dämon" of Obeid Culture. Von der Osten-Sacken argues that this anthropomorphic figure is the first deity of Mesopotamian Pantheon.” Gobekli Tepe and the Rock Art of the Near East. Klaus Schmidt, 2000 TÜBA-AR 3 (2000) 1–14* The pottery using Ubaid people of Arabia and Mesopotamia and the Levant form a link between the mesolithic and Neolithic near east. Ubaid culture is characterized by large village settlements, “characterized by multi-roomed rectangular mud-brick houses” and the appearance of the first temples of public architecture in Mesopotamia. They founded the early cities of Adab, Eridu, Kish, Kullab, Lagash, Larsa, Nippur and extend down the coast of eastern Arabia including Bahrein or early Dilmun. They made lizard headed anthropomorphic figurines and worshipped the mother Goddess. Unlike the earliest “Mediterranean” inhabitants and later brachycephalic Eurasiatic peoples in southern Mesopotamia, the Ubaid skeletons are large bodied, large headed, dolicocephalic with long wide noses and accompanying prognathism. For that reason A. Sayce had described them as Negroid. Skeletal markings were similar to those of ancient Natufians who have also been found to have sub-Saharan Central African affinities. (see The Questionable Contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European Craniofacial Form, L. Brace, K., Manolis, Pan Qifeng et. al. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 2006. PNAS 103;242-247. Cambridge Ancient History Vol. 1, Part I reads, “Keith's interesting conclusions—that the skulls of the ancient Sumerians were relatively narrow, that they were dolichocephalic, a large-headed, large-brained people, approaching or exceeding in these respects the longer-headed races of Europe, and that the men's noses were long and wide—is applicable to some of the 'Ubaid dead of the latter half of the third and the beginning of the second millennium B.C. The Cambridge Ancient History, Iorwerth Eiddon Stephen Edwards, 1970, p. 358. The editors earlier say, “ Another impression that arose on the first examination was that the Eridu skulls showed a marked prognathism…” p. 348. But, the Ubaid culture ends abruptly in Arabia in the early 4th millenium B.C. More notable are the connections between the culture called “Sabir” in south Arabia which showed strong links to the pre-Axumite culture of Abyssinia, Eritrea and Sudan. Its origins date back to the 2nd millenium B.C. and have connections with the 3rd millenium megalithic culture in the same region which also had evident African connections. According to, Ancient South Arabia: From the Queen of Sheba to the Advent of Islam, by Klaus Shippmann, (1998, 2001) the research specialist L. Constantini “has maintained that Yemen was part of the Abyssinian Sudanese center” p. 74.
According to M. Petraglia, in 2009 , “Sites from Sihi to Subr along the west and southern coasts of Arabia …for example exhibit pottery that is seen to have parallels with older C-group and Kerma cultures of the Middle Nile (Phillips, 1998, Kitchen, 2006). The Sabir culture itself, which began in the early 2nd millenium B.C. was clearly a sea-oriented coastal culture (Ray, 2003) The recently discovered Bronze Age megalithic site of Midamman in Yemen which seems to span the late third to early first millenium B.C. has also been argued to have parallels not only in the Sabir culture but also with material on the African side (Gumlia Mair et. al. , 2002; Keall, 2004).” Quoted from, The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia: Paleoenvironmental Prehistory by Michael D. Petraglia, 2009, p. 264.
Avanzini found that these sites which are located both sides of the Red Sea in the Tihama region of Yemen and in Sudan, Eritrea and parts of Aden represent a single cultural complex. She writes “the lithic tools from the Saudi Tihama sites are comparable to those of the Gash group in Kassala. Representative sites of the coastal complex have been reported at Sihi in the southern Tihama plain, Adulis, near the Gulf of Zeila, in Eritrea; Wadi Urq near Hodeidah in the Yemeni Tihama Plain; Sabir (Subr) near Aden. These sites share enough ceramic features to be regarded as regional variants of one cultural tradition.”
By the late 3rd to middle second millenia B.C. there was also “a quite regular interchange circuit between Egypt and the southern Red Sea countries.” (Avanzini, 1997, p. 285)
The stone implements or lithics (the Doian culture of Somalia and the horn of Africa and the Kharga Neolithic and neolithic of the Sahara and western deserts of northern Egypt) and the art in many places such as the Rub al Khali of Central Arabia, Oman, Hadramaut, Hejaz and Yemen was stylistically similar and in some cases identical to that used among populations of Africa in the same periods. The rock art of Central Arabia as in the Rub –al Khali in fact depicted tall or elongated pastoralists whom art specialist Emmanuel Anati, (author of Rock Art in Central Arabia, 1968) referred to as “oval headed Negroids”. In the same region or in Central Arabia today (in Yemamah or southern Nejd of Saudi Arabia ) are people who are described as the tallest and blackest Arabians on the peninsula still trading in the feathers of the ostriches so significant in the ancient art.
This rock art depicting “elegant”, “elongated” “oval heads” resembling pastoralist peoples of East Africa extended into areas certain regions of the Syrian desert as well and dates to the 3rd and second millienum B.C. Stylistic resemblances in art with the art of earlier neolithic Saharans have been commented on. After the late stone age these ancient Arabian people were accustomed to portraying themselves wearing headdresses, carrying copper instruments including swords and in mock ritual battle aside from doing and using many other things common to ancient and modern pastoral nomads of east Africa. “The use of copper and bronze is confirmed by tomb finds in the Nejd and Tihama (cf. above, al Midaman). Males are shown wearing headdresses, and cache-sex chokers and necklaces and sometimes holding scepters.” Petraglia, The Evolution of Human Populations
Archeologists also decades ago identified artwork given the name “realistic dynamic” art style also belonging to the 3rd and second millenium appears in various sites in Arabia with apparent similarities to the early pre-dynastic Egyptian art of “Amratians” and other predynastic populations who had spread from Nubia to the eastern desert and Red Sea hills and down the Nile in to Lower Egypt. The people that brought this culture to Arabia were evidently similar to the mall, gracile Negroid people that occupied the Lower Nile and the Sahara, and are probably the ancestors of similar people presently occupying the coasts of Arabia.
* This art may go back to the pre-pottery Neolithic (PPN) of the Levant. “A spectacular but widely unknown province of Saudi Arabian rock art is Jubba. Hunters, often with a head like a goat or ibex and bovidés, equides or caprovides, are depicted in the rocks around a playa, a former lake in the desert. The bovidés of Jubba and of several rock art sites in the Hijaz in Saudi Arabia follow similar iconogrraphical lines - and they can be closely com pared with the bovids of Jawa's "Animal's Farm". So, the hunter style of Anati is filled with new evidence. It seems to be connected with the PPN-Period and is including Kilwa and the Negev-I- Style, Dhuweila, Jawa and Jubba.” . Schmidt, Göbekli Tepe and the rock art of the Near East, TÜBA-AR 3 (2000) 1-14
Indigenous people of the Tihama region of southwest Arabia still live in beehive huts common to Ethiopia
Ibn Mudjawir (11th c.) refers to Tihama as "Kush"
This Shammar man was typical of bedouin once numerous in North and Central Arabia. Those further north in Syria and Iraq mixed with the populations there.
Somali man
Somali or Bin Sam'al in Africa of the Rahan'ayn, Mahra and other African tribes claim descent from tribes of the same name in Arabia
Man of Nakh'l in Oman
Tall "Ethiopian" or Sabean clans of the Madhij (from Kahlan son of Saba) called Nakha or An'Nakha, Nakhawil, Danakil lined the coasts of the Eritrean Sea (Sea of Harith) in ancient times and came to be known as the "Anakim", Ph'Anakes or Phoenikes
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A bedouin of Jordan in Western wear
Some bedouin of Sinai
Some Saudi bedouins
Posted by Abu Isa (Member # 17368) on :
Well Dana, I have to give you props again for the research you've presented. I actually purchased a book by one of the men you quoted named John D. Baldwin. His book is entitled "Pre-Historic Nations". I got the book as I was trying to order Tariq's book (which still doesn't show as being shipped)because the book discusses how the Ethiopians were the original inhabitants of Arabia, and that Ethiopia itself was actually seated in Arabia as opposed to being solely in the African continent. However in the book Baldwin quotes a claim made by certain "students of antiquity" where he writes ' The people of Ethiopia seem to have been of the caucasian race," Baldwin immediately explains that statement by writing, " meaning white men". He then quotes the praised students by writing about the Greeks calling Ethiopians Ethiops meaning burnt skin or black skin was "perhaps really a foreign word corrupted". Baldwin finally exlains "The appellation (saying Ethiops)had religious significance, but no reference whatever to complexion." Now, I got this book because I saw how Baldwin calling the original Arabs Cushites and saying the Cushites formed the nations in Chaldea, and India, Arabia, Egypt and so on seemed sound and was the info I was looking for. I did a little research about Baldwin and saw that he was also against slavery, and even wrote and spoke against it. Because of that and with these views about the Cushites made me think the book (even though written by a white man) wouldn't have the bogus lying views in it. For the most part the book is good too, but calling the Ethiopian Cushites white men, just had me shaking my head. Because what he's saying is, since the Cushites from Ethiopia are white, and these were the ones who formed Egypt, Arabia, the Chaldeans and so on, that these were all created by white people! I just disregard that paragraph where he quoted that nonsense and understand that every instance where he's discussing the Ethiopian/Cushites, that these were indeed blacks, and I think deep down Baldwin knows it too. With that being said, have you ever heard the claim that Ethiopians were originally white? Have you heard of Baldwin? And also, Baldwin seemed to harp on his belief that Muslim historians lie regarding the background of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Baldwin claims the Original Cushite Arabs were responsible for Arabia's glorious past and that Muhammad was from the Semitic half of the Arabs. He also claims Arabia was made up pf the two main races, the Cushites and Semites. Now, first Muhammad peace be upon him was from Quraish who descend from yemen, this is known. We also know his family members were black, but what is it with this Semite thing? Yes Muhammad was descendant of Prophet Ibrahim and Ismail who weren't Arab, and Baldwin even called Ismail's mother a Cushite from Egypt, peace be upon all of them. But what is the race of a Semite and how are they different from Cushites. I know at least some Semites were black, but for Baldwin to make this statement (about the racial make up of the Arabs being Cushite and Semite) is puzzling to me unless he's referring to the Jews who migrated into Arabia but were later expelled. What do you think of this though? Anyways, excuse me for such a long reply, and I look forward to reading your reply.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Well Dana, I have to give you props again for the research you've presented. I actually purchased a book by one of the men you quoted named John D. Baldwin. His book is entitled "Pre-Historic Nations". I got the book as I was trying to order Tariq's book (which still doesn't show as being shipped)because the book discusses how the Ethiopians were the original inhabitants of Arabia, and that Ethiopia itself was actually seated in Arabia as opposed to being solely in the African continent. However in the book Baldwin quotes a claim made by certain "students of antiquity" where he writes ' The people of Ethiopia seem to have been of the caucasian race," Baldwin immediately explains that statement by writing, " meaning white men". He then quotes the praised students by writing about the Greeks calling Ethiopians Ethiops meaning burnt skin or black skin was "perhaps really a foreign word corrupted". Baldwin finally exlains "The appellation (saying Ethiops)had religious significance, but no reference whatever to complexion." Now, I got this book because I saw how Baldwin calling the original Arabs Cushites and saying the Cushites formed the nations in Chaldea, and India, Arabia, Egypt and so on seemed sound and was the info I was looking for. I did a little research about Baldwin and saw that he was also against slavery, and even wrote and spoke against it. Because of that and with these views about the Cushites made me think the book (even though written by a white man) wouldn't have the bogus lying views in it. For the most part the book is good too, but calling the Ethiopian Cushites white men, just had me shaking my head. Because what he's saying is, since the Cushites from Ethiopia are white, and these were the ones who formed Egypt, Arabia, the Chaldeans and so on, that these were all created by white people! I just disregard that paragraph where he quoted that nonsense and understand that every instance where he's discussing the Ethiopian/Cushites, that these were indeed blacks, and I think deep down Baldwin knows it too. With that being said, have you ever heard the claim that Ethiopians were originally white? Have you heard of Baldwin? And also, Baldwin seemed to harp on his belief that Muslim historians lie regarding the background of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Baldwin claims the Original Cushite Arabs were responsible for Arabia's glorious past and that Muhammad was from the Semitic half of the Arabs. He also claims Arabia was made up pf the two main races, the Cushites and Semites. Now, first Muhammad peace be upon him was from Quraish who descend from yemen, this is known. We also know his family members were black, but what is it with this Semite thing? Yes Muhammad was descendant of Prophet Ibrahim and Ismail who weren't Arab, and Baldwin even called Ismail's mother a Cushite from Egypt, peace be upon all of them. But what is the race of a Semite and how are they different from Cushites. I know at least some Semites were black, but for Baldwin to make this statement (about the racial make up of the Arabs being Cushite and Semite) is puzzling to me unless he's referring to the Jews who migrated into Arabia but were later expelled. What do you think of this though? Anyways, excuse me for such a long reply, and I look forward to reading your reply.
I know this was directed towards Dana, but to answer your question...no the Ethiopians were not originally a caucasian race. There was an attempt by the historical community very early on to whitewash Ethiopians. This is because Ethiopia's story hasn't fully been told or even realized. Ethiopia rivals Egypt in terms of its importance. This is why old school historians wanted to "lighten them up" I theorize. They are highly regarded in virtually every historical text. Ethiopians have spawned the Sabeans, they may represent the original source of the ancient Egyptians. They founded Abyssinia, an early Christian empire, stood against the Romans (and I think there may be more to this story). They were considered "Hamitic" and totally part of psuedo-Arabic stock. Now, to be clear...yes a certain part of Ethiopian society/culture is ethnically-influenced by Arabs. But as Dana shows and as I did in the African/Arabic Connection thread, and evidence, groups of Black Africans also migrated to Arabia and Yemen...it wasn't a one-way flow of genes. Which is why a British man found Swahili being spoken by groups in Saudi Arabia. But you must also understand that there are also many Ethiopians that are either not as mixed or not mixed at all and look as Black as any other African lol.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Great learning post Dana please continue to post because it seems like you have a lot of truths to tell us.
Peace
Posted by Abu Isa (Member # 17368) on :
I know this was directed towards Dana, but to answer your question...no the Ethiopians were not originally a caucasian race. There was an attempt by the historical community very early on to whitewash Ethiopians. This is because Ethiopia's story hasn't fully been told or even realized. Ethiopia rivals Egypt in terms of its importance. This is why old school historians wanted to "lighten them up" I theorize. They are highly regarded in virtually every historical text. Ethiopians have spawned the Sabeans, they may represent the original source of the ancient Egyptians. They founded Abyssinia, an early Christian empire, stood against the Romans (and I think there may be more to this story). They were considered "Hamitic" and totally part of psuedo-Arabic stock. Now, to be clear...yes a certain part of Ethiopian society/culture is ethnically-influenced by Arabs. But as Dana shows and as I did in the African/Arabic Connection thread, and evidence, groups of Black Africans also migrated to Arabia and Yemen...it wasn't a one-way flow of genes. Which is why a British man found Swahili being spoken by groups in Saudi Arabia. But you must also understand that there are also many Ethiopians that are either not as mixed or not mixed at all and look as Black as any other African lol. [/QB][/QUOTE]
King Scorpion, thanks for the reply. I'm sure that the Ethiopians weren't white, and as soon as I read that nonsense in the book I figured that it was just another attempt to steal black history. John D. Baldwin (whom I reference with the book "Pre-Historic Nations") was claiming the Cushites being the founders of civilization, and religion, and so on, so to say the Cushite Ethiopians to be white is a clear attempt to claim white people are the originators of these great historic civilizations from Egypt, Chaldea, Arabia,and so on. It's ridiculous! I will say however, this is further proof of the fact that European historians (not all mind you) have been falsifying history for a long time. Baldwin comes off very hypocritical, not just in this book where he criticises the Greeks for their ego and lack of true historical knowledge, but also in his personal life where he championed the freedom and equal rights for oppressed slaves of America even writing anti slavery journals and being actively involved in movements for this cause. Then to see him clearly try to steal Black history, when he has to know the opinion he quoted (about the Original Cushite Ethiopians being white) and appears to support has to be way off. So I agree with you, I think these historians realise how great the Ethiopian influence was and now instead of trying to claim Egypt for themselves, they want to take it even farther and say the Ethiopians were white too! I wish I had the chance to dialogue with some of these liars so I can serve em' up something proper. It may seem like something irrelevent but stealing one's history, lying and denying these truths is another form of racism, mental slavery, and oppression IMO.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Well Dana, I have to give you props again for the research you've presented. I actually purchased a book by one of the men you quoted named John D. Baldwin. His book is entitled "Pre-Historic Nations". I got the book as I was trying to order Tariq's book (which still doesn't show as being shipped)because the book discusses how the Ethiopians were the original inhabitants of Arabia, and that Ethiopia itself was actually seated in Arabia as opposed to being solely in the African continent. However in the book Baldwin quotes a claim made by certain "students of antiquity" where he writes ' The people of Ethiopia seem to have been of the caucasian race," Baldwin immediately explains that statement by writing, " meaning white men". He then quotes the praised students by writing about the Greeks calling Ethiopians Ethiops meaning burnt skin or black skin was "perhaps really a foreign word corrupted". Baldwin finally exlains "The appellation (saying Ethiops)had religious significance, but no reference whatever to complexion." Now, I got this book because I saw how Baldwin calling the original Arabs Cushites and saying the Cushites formed the nations in Chaldea, and India, Arabia, Egypt and so on seemed sound and was the info I was looking for...
Hi - Abu - well i hope u can get the book that u ordered. I hope u ordered it from some place where it didn't say out of stock. U can always email Amazon to see what happened.
As to ur query, Scorpion is right, and u need to understand that up until the 1990s there was perhaps only a few books that would talk about the inhabitants of present Ethiopia and Eritrea as black "Negroids" due to racist anthropological thought. That is just generally what Europeans called them - "black Caucasoids" or "hamites". That is not just Baldwin that is almost any orientalist or historian. Believe it or not there are still certain historians that write this.
It is the reason there is so much controversy over what the ancient Egyptians and Moors for example were, - because European academia had already mixed up Africans of a certain variety with Europeans. Any black African with a narrow nose and little prognathous aspect was basically considered a "Caucasoid" and even said to resemble Nordics. Thus many of the skeletons of the ancient Middle East and Europe that were essentially of black Caucasoid type are referred to as Mediterraneans, Kurgan people etc. and made to look white by forensic reconstruction.
To this day most people don't realize that many of the peoples of ancient Europe classified as "Caucasoid" were actually nothing more than some east African type "Negroes" with narrow noses. Sometimes this is called the "hamitic hypothesis.
This is why the recent studies of Brace and others that were on genetically determined cranial traits are so important.
The only people that seemed to appreciate that most narrow-nosed black people originally had nothing to do with being modern Europeans were some of the early U.S. "anthropologists", pre-civil rights era like William Ripley and the anatomist G. Elliot Smith who studied hundreds of ancient Egyptian skeletons and classified them all as the "brown race". Smith however also considered them not "blacks".
Unfortunately, modern genetics is also largely based on this confusion over what the original people of Europe and Asia were, and is in the processing of recreating the fallacious affiliations promoted by the myth of the "Hamite" or "black Caucasoid".
Samburu moran (warrior) - typical "black Caucasoid" of early anthropologists (created by the overactive European orientalist imagination)
For more information on the development of the "Mediterranean race" concept see Dr. Van Sertima's Egypt Child of Africa. I have an article in their called "Myth of the Mediterranean Race". Also see the other books by him. I would lastly suggest u get the most important book by Chiekh Anta Diop, African Origins of Civilization, which discusses this "racial" categorization which hid the truth about the bringers of purveyors of the earliest civilizations in Asia and Europe.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Great learning post Dana please continue to post because it seems like you have a lot of truths to tell us.
Peace
Thanks King - I've been trying but I think some are a little afraid of the facts at this point. I'm reposting Part 3 and 4 soon so stay tuned. Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: I know this was directed towards Dana, but to answer your question...no the Ethiopians were not originally a caucasian race. There was an attempt by the historical community very early on to whitewash Ethiopians. This is because Ethiopia's story hasn't fully been told or even realized. Ethiopia rivals Egypt in terms of its importance. This is why old school historians wanted to "lighten them up" I theorize. They are highly regarded in virtually every historical text. Ethiopians have spawned the Sabeans, they may represent the original source of the ancient Egyptians. They founded Abyssinia, an early Christian empire, stood against the Romans (and I think there may be more to this story). They were considered "Hamitic" and totally part of psuedo-Arabic stock. Now, to be clear...yes a certain part of Ethiopian society/culture is ethnically-influenced by Arabs. But as Dana shows and as I did in the African/Arabic Connection thread, and evidence, groups of Black Africans also migrated to Arabia and Yemen...it wasn't a one-way flow of genes. Which is why a British man found Swahili being spoken by groups in Saudi Arabia. But you must also understand that there are also many Ethiopians that are either not as mixed or not mixed at all and look as Black as any other African lol.
King Scorpion, thanks for the reply. I'm sure that the Ethiopians weren't white, and as soon as I read that nonsense in the book I figured that it was just another attempt to steal black history. John D. Baldwin (whom I reference with the book "Pre-Historic Nations") was claiming the Cushites being the founders of civilization, and religion, and so on, so to say the Cushite Ethiopians to be white is a clear attempt to claim white people are the originators of these great historic civilizations from Egypt, Chaldea, Arabia,and so on. It's ridiculous! I will say however, this is further proof of the fact that European historians (not all mind you) have been falsifying history for a long time. Baldwin comes off very hypocritical, not just in this book where he criticises the Greeks for their ego and lack of true historical knowledge, but also in his personal life where he championed the freedom and equal rights for oppressed slaves of America even writing anti slavery journals and being actively involved in movements for this cause. Then to see him clearly try to steal Black history, when he has to know the opinion he quoted (about the Original Cushite Ethiopians being white) and appears to support has to be way off. So I agree with you, I think these historians realise how great the Ethiopian influence was and now instead of trying to claim Egypt for themselves, they want to take it even farther and say the Ethiopians were white too! I wish I had the chance to dialogue with some of these liars so I can serve em' up something proper. It may seem like something irrelevent but stealing one's history, lying and denying these truths is another form of racism, mental slavery, and oppression IMO. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Well luckily, Western historiography hasn't been as successful in whitewashing Ethiopia as they have Egypt. Ethiopia has maintained their true ethnic heritage unlike Egypt which has been taken over completely by Arabs, Turks, Ottomans...have all influenced Egyptian looks. Even some of the "light-skinned" Ethiopians are considerably dark. It becomes hard to maintain the illusion...which is why Ethiopia has fallen off the radar a little I theorize. Most people believe Ethiopians are Black or at least mostly. Ethiopia is more recently synonymous with Nubia...which is definitely seen as Black.
Ethiopian history needs to be looked at more.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Abu Isa: Well Dana, I have to give you props again for the research you've presented. I actually purchased a book by one of the men you quoted named John D. Baldwin. His book is entitled "Pre-Historic Nations". I got the book as I was trying to order Tariq's book (which still doesn't show as being shipped)because the book discusses how the Ethiopians were the original inhabitants of Arabia, and that Ethiopia itself was actually seated in Arabia as opposed to being solely in the African continent. However in the book Baldwin quotes a claim made by certain "students of antiquity" where he writes ' The people of Ethiopia seem to have been of the caucasian race," Baldwin immediately explains that statement by writing, " meaning white men". He then quotes the praised students by writing about the Greeks calling Ethiopians Ethiops meaning burnt skin or black skin was "perhaps really a foreign word corrupted". Baldwin finally exlains "The appellation (saying Ethiops)had religious significance, but no reference whatever to complexion." Now, I got this book because I saw how Baldwin calling the original Arabs Cushites and saying the Cushites formed the nations in Chaldea, and India, Arabia, Egypt and so on seemed sound and was the info I was looking for...
Hi - Abu - well i hope u can get the book that u ordered. I hope u ordered it from some place where it didn't say out of stock. U can always email Amazon to see what happened.
As to ur query, Scorpion is right, and u need to understand that up until the 1990s there was perhaps only a few books that would talk about the inhabitants of present Ethiopia and Eritrea as black "Negroids" due to racist anthropological thought. That is just generally what Europeans called them - "black Caucasoids" or "hamites". That is not just Baldwin that is almost any orientalist or historian. Believe it or not there are still certain historians that write this.
It is the reason there is so much controversy over what the ancient Egyptians and Moors for example were, - because European academia had already mixed up Africans of a certain variety with Europeans. Any black African with a narrow nose and little prognathous aspect was basically considered a "Caucasoid" and even said to resemble Nordics. Thus many of the skeletons of the ancient Middle East and Europe that were essentially of black Caucasoid type are referred to as Mediterraneans, Kurgan people etc. and made to look white by forensic reconstruction.
To this day most people don't realize that many of the peoples of ancient Europe classified as "Caucasoid" were actually nothing more than some east African type "Negroes" with narrow noses. Sometimes this is called the "hamitic hypothesis.
This is why the recent studies of Brace and others that were on genetically determined cranial traits are so important.
The only people that seemed to appreciate that most narrow-nosed black people originally had nothing to do with being modern Europeans were some of the early U.S. "anthropologists", pre-civil rights era like William Ripley and the anatomist G. Elliot Smith who studied hundreds of ancient Egyptian skeletons and classified them all as the "brown race". Smith however also considered them not "blacks".
Unfortunately, modern genetics is also largely based on this confusion over what the original people of Europe and Asia were, and is in the processing of recreating the fallacious affiliations promoted by the myth of the "Hamite" or "black Caucasoid".
Samburu moran (warrior) - typical "black Caucasoid" of early anthropologists (created by the overactive European orientalist imagination)
For more information on the development of the "Mediterranean race" concept see Dr. Van Sertima's Egypt Child of Africa. I have an article in their called "Myth of the Mediterranean Race". Also see the other books by him. I would lastly suggest u get the most important book by Chiekh Anta Diop, African Origins of Civilization, which discusses this "racial" categorization which hid the truth about the bringers of purveyors of the earliest civilizations in Asia and Europe.
Exactly. The "Mediterrean Race" has been tackled on this forum before. But the thread is years old now and I don't know how to access it. A lot of the old threads got deleted. It was written by Doug M if I'm not mistaken. The Miditerrean Myth is still very much support, even though it's lacking in strong evidence. It's basically a buffer group I think to separate dark-skinned Africans from Europeans. They don't like the idea of accepting that Black Africans walked the shores of North Africa...so close to Europe. It's like they picture this fake Jim Crow style history where Europeans (White) existed in the far north. "Sub-Saharan" Africans were below the Saharan desert in the south (Blacks). And a group that combined the two were in the center (Berbers, North Africa, Middle East). I don't think it's coincidental that J.R.R. Tolkien's Middle Earth is modeled after this "style" and countless other European-inspired fantasy tales.
Problem is, history doesn't work that rigidly. There is strong evidence that ancient and medieval societies moved all over the place. It's diffusionist, and it helps not to get carried away with it and over-attribute influences and generalize though (which is the easy thing to do). The Historical community doesn't like to emphasize this (which is why the community is still behind when it comes to Trans-Atlantic Contact) because it would mean accepting as historical fact...some things they don't want to.
Posted by abdulkarem3 (Member # 12885) on :
awsome pics dana but dont show these to marki because he may dismiss these as a european scandal and tht maybe they are recent lol.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by abdulkarem3: awsome pics dana but dont show these to marki because he may dismiss these as a european scandal and tht maybe they are recent lol.
LOL! Yeah - I'm sure its only a matter of time. Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: Ethiopia has maintained their true ethnic heritage unlike Egypt which has been taken over completely by Arabs, Turks, Ottomans...
Egypt continued to have relations with the rest of Africa they were never cut off. (Until European colonialism)
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: the Sabeans, they may represent the original source of the ancient Egyptians. They founded Abyssinia, an early Christian empire
quote:But now we come to some remarkable statements, which show and prove that the Ethiopians were of the same race and stock as the Abyssinians. The New International Encyclopaedia says: "The Abyssinian monasteries are known to possess large numbers of (Ethiopian) manuscripts."
The Americana Encyclopaedia says, "During the middle ages the Christians and clergy of Abyssinia were designated as the Ethiopian Church. Manuscripts written in the Ethiopian language are in the possession of Abyssinian monks and in libraries in Europe."
quote:“The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)”
On page 20 the author wrote
quote: 3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)
quote:During the first or Meccan period (610=622) of his prophetship Muhammad and his followers looked upon the Abyssinian Christians as their religious kinsmen. "Yonder," he said to some of his persecuted converts without protectors, and, as he spake, pointing westward: "Yonder lieth a land where none is wronged. Go thither, and remain till the Lord open a way". Dean Stanley noted this connection between the Abyssinian Christians and the first Muslims. He wrote: "Springing out of the same oriental soil and climate, if not from the bosom of the oriental church itself, in part under its influence, in part by reaction, Muhammadanism must be regarded as an eccentric, heretical form of eastern Christianity. This was the ancient mode of regarding Muhammad. He was considered not the founder of a new religion but, rather, one of the chief heresiarchs of the church"
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Of course these old books are highly prejudiced and most of the information in them is flawed but you can get some good information out of them
"Man, past and present" By Augustus Henry Keane 1900
quote:They were Christians, it should be remembered, for many centuries, and although the flourishing Christian Empire of Nubia, with its seventeen bishoprics and its thirteen viceroyalties, all governed by priests, was not founded, as is commonly supposed, by the renowned Silco, " King of the Noubads and of all the Ethiopians," it was strong enough frequently to invade Egypt in defence of their oppressed Greek and Koptic fellow-Christians. So early as 640 a combined army of Nubas and Bejas, said to have numbered 50,000 men with 1500 elephants, penetrated as far north as Oxyrhynchus (the Arab Bahnosa) where such a surprising store of Greek and other documents was discovered in 1897. Cultured peoples with such glorious records, and traditions going back even to pre-Christian times (Silco and Queen Candace, contemporary of Augustus
quote:at periods the Nubians gained the upper hand, as in 737 when Cyriacus, their then king, marched into Egypt with a large army to redress the grievances of the Copts. There is a record of an embassy sent by a king Zacharias in the 9th century to Bagdad concerning the tribute,....
...... Nevertheless, the Nubians were strong enough to invade upper Egypt during the reign of Nawaya Krcstos (1342-1372), because the governor of Cairo had thrown the patriarch of Alexandria into prison.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Hausa became was a world language "a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa." They and others would definitely have a great deal of contact with Egypt even in the 19th century
Contemporaries recognized Borno as a world power. They had vast trading networks, a powerful military and a rich intellectual culture. Around 1512 Borno sent diplomats to the N. African-occupied Spain, they had an embassy in the Ottomans Empire, where the two countries had a treaty of, "friendship and commerce," and Borno also had close relations with Egypt.6 (496, v)
quote: In the Chad group the Hausa has spread farthest and acquired most usefulness. The vernacular of a numerous people, it offers a valuable medium of communication through vast districts on both sides of the Binwe and the Niger. In extent of use it surpasses all other languages in inner Africa, serving not only as the mother=tongue of millions but as a world=speech between tribes of different languages and between Mediterranean and Sudanese Africa. Hausa is remarkable for simplicity, elegance and wealth of vocabulary. It stands among the world's imperial languages, magnificent, rich and sonorous, beautiful and facile in grammatical structure, enjoying a harmony in the forms of its words and a symphonic symmetry that few tongues can equal, and assured of prolonged existence and vast expansion. It is the Latin of Central Sudan.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
A final nail in the coffin of Dana's 19th century racial theories. Concerning the three excerpts bellow
1. This makes Scorpian's Arab pseudo stock theory seem more unlikely
2. Same thing
3. Abyssinians are more closely related to Zanj than Arabs are related to other Arabs! I was just guessing that we meant Zanj I added the (Zanj?) into the text
The Blacks continue: coming from Abyssinia, we were Masters of the country of Arabia up to Mecca, and on all the country our law reigned. We put to rout Du Nuwas, killed by the 'Aqyal Himyarites. You, you never dominated our country.....
and if the Prophet – may Allah be pleased with him – knew that the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians were not ruddy or light-skinned, rather dark-skinned, and that Allah Most High sent him to the dark-skinned and the ruddy, then surely he made us and the Arabs equals. Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us.....
...Qahtan is far from Adman. We (Zanj?) are closer kin to the Abyssinians and our mothers are closer kin then those of Adnan are to Qahtan.
.. The Axumite kingdom is an excellent case in point. Being such an important example of African cultural development, a European myth of external (South Arabian) origins for this culture solidified in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries and has taken on the quality of truth for most scholars even today. In fact, there is little evidence for this other than the powerful pull of ideology, which states that Africa cannot produce culture, civilizations, or history
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: You people and your 19th century racial theories Arabia was a colony of Ethiopia not the other way around
“The Spread of Islam and the Nubian Dam” by David Ayalon
quote:“The people of Hijaz and Yemen and the rest of the Arabs learned archery from them (The Nubians)”
On page 20 the author wrote
quote: 3. The awe and respect that the Muslims had for their Nubian adversaries are reflected in the fact that even a rather late Umayyad caliph, ‘Umar b ‘Abd al- ‘Aziz (‘Umar II 717-720), is said to have ratified the Nubian-Muslim treaty out of fear for the safety of the Muslims (“he ratified the peace treaty out of consideration for the Muslims and out of [a desire] to spare their lives”)
quote:During the first or Meccan period (610=622) of his prophetship Muhammad and his followers looked upon the Abyssinian Christians as their religious kinsmen. "Yonder," he said to some of his persecuted converts without protectors, and, as he spake, pointing westward: "Yonder lieth a land where none is wronged. Go thither, and remain till the Lord open a way". Dean Stanley noted this connection between the Abyssinian Christians and the first Muslims. He wrote: "Springing out of the same oriental soil and climate, if not from the bosom of the oriental church itself, in part under its influence, in part by reaction, Muhammadanism must be regarded as an eccentric, heretical form of eastern Christianity. This was the ancient mode of regarding Muhammad. He was considered not the founder of a new religion but, rather, one of the chief heresiarchs of the church"
Oh my GOd! Were u ever right, abdulkarem - it is time to come back to earth Mark! Where in this post did I say Arabia was not colonized by Africans. LOL.
Between you and Mike I'm really getting exhausted here responding to something I"M NOT TALKING ABOUT.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ISLAMIC ERA OR CHRISTIANITY.... CAN YOU READ ME?! Testing testing 1,2,3...... EARTH TO MARK! EARTH TO MARK!
Wow! I think I'd rather be listening to Hammer. Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
And why did the migrations turn northward after Islam if it wasn't like that before Islam too?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: And why did the migrations turn northward after Islam if it wasn't like that before Islam too?
I'm guessing ur not talking to me. Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
Posted by King_Scorpion (Member # 4818) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: A final nail in the coffin of Dana's 19th century racial theories. Concerning the three excerpts bellow
1. This makes Scorpian's Arab pseudo stock theory seem more unlikely
2. Same thing
3. Abyssinians are more closely related to Zanj than Arabs are related to other Arabs! I was just guessing that we meant Zanj I added the (Zanj?) into the text
The Blacks continue: coming from Abyssinia, we were Masters of the country of Arabia up to Mecca, and on all the country our law reigned. We put to rout Du Nuwas, killed by the 'Aqyal Himyarites. You, you never dominated our country.....
and if the Prophet – may Allah be pleased with him – knew that the Zanj, Ethiopians and Nubians were not ruddy or light-skinned, rather dark-skinned, and that Allah Most High sent him to the dark-skinned and the ruddy, then surely he made us and the Arabs equals. Hence, we are the only dark-skinned people. If the appellation dark-skinned applies to us, then we are the pure Sudan, and the Arabs only resemble us.....
...Qahtan is far from Adman. We (Zanj?) are closer kin to the Abyssinians and our mothers are closer kin then those of Adnan are to Qahtan.
.. The Axumite kingdom is an excellent case in point. Being such an important example of African cultural development, a European myth of external (South Arabian) origins for this culture solidified in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries and has taken on the quality of truth for most scholars even today. In fact, there is little evidence for this other than the powerful pull of ideology, which states that Africa cannot produce culture, civilizations, or history
LOL! I have to agree with Dana on this Mark. WTF are you blabbering about? When did I say Abyssinians WEREN'T more closely related to their African bretheren? I was pointing out though that that whole region called Abyssinia, Nubia, Ethiopia, Saba (and in the old days Cush) likely comprised of some of the same "tribes" in East Africa. These were BLACK AFRICANS! I agree with you on that Mark and NEVER disagreed. But pointing out a clear link with those Black Arabs (and later light-skinned Arabs) in Arabia and Yemen is not placing an ARABIC origin on East African civilization! But you can't ignore the creation of the Swahili language done by Africans with trade links across the Red Sea. Swahili at one point in time may have been the langua franca of Red Sea trading! And you can't ignore the evidence given in my thread about poor Arabs immigrating to Abyssinia to make a living and send money home. Intermarrying with local women while there.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
oops, sorry. Anyway Shaban talks a bit on Swahili influence
M. A. Shaban on the Zanj revolt shows this south to north influence:
quote:All the talk about slaves rising against the wretched conditions of work in the salt marshes of Basra is a figment of the imagination and has no support in the sources.....The vast majority of the rebels were Arabs of the Persian Gulf supported by free East Africans who had made their homes in the region.....
(continued page 102)...If more proof is needed that it was not a slave revolt, it is to be found in the fact that it had a highly organized army and navy which vigorously resisted the whole weight of the central government for almost fifteen years. Moreover, it must have had huge resources that allowed it to build no less than six impregnable towns in which there were arsenals for the manufacture of weapons and battleships. These towns also had in their mammoth markets prodigious wealth which was more than the salt marshes could conceivably produce. Even all the booty from Basra and the whole region could not account for such enormous wealth. Significantly the revolt had the backing of a certain group of merchants who preserved with their support until the very end. Tabari makes it very clear that the strength of the rebels was dependent on the support of these merchants.
quote:With remarkable efficiency and expedition the rebels swiftly established their control over most of the Persian Gulf coast, and extended it inland to secure their food supplies. Special vehemence was reserved for the port of Basra, which they practically destroyed. Their choice of sites for their own new towns and their meticulous knowledge of the intricate waterways of the region in addition to their great skill in naval warfare were all utilized to strangle the Basran economy and drive all the in-coming trade through their own channels. Wasit, the major bottle-neck on the way north to Baghdad, was completely cut off from any road or waterway leading south to the Gulf coast. Furthermore, the rebels occupied Kufa in order to secure the alternative inland route to the north. They expelled government forces from all these areas and easily withstood the onslaught of the successive expeditions that Muwaffaq sent against them. Realizing the grave dangers of this situation, he decided to mobilize all the financial and military forces against this audacious enemy…...
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
oops, I misunderstood something sorry. I read it too fast
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
Markellion, Your Royal Denseness!
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
From thread
"Has Anyone Read The Unknown Arabs by Tariq Berry?"
Ok there are in fact many accounts of Arabs marrying into royal families and there were migrations to the “western Sudan” probably since very early times but did you post a specific quote about Zaghawa because I think I might have missed it. I thought Zaghawa were supposed to be amongst the oldest people to have kingdoms. This is what was bothering me because I didn’t see specific information on it although maybe they did come from Arabia. I was frustrated because I felt like you weren't giving me any information
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: It is wrong however to say that populations like the Mande as a whole came from Arabia. On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in Abyssinia in pre-Islamic times from southern Arabia.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
The result of such convergent investigations by scholars working in different fields was that Jacqueline Pirenne, basing herself on the areas material culture, as well as on linguistic and paleographic data, stood Conti Rossinis thesis on its head. She argued that migration was not from Yemen to Ethiopia, but rather in the opposite direction: from Ethiopia to Yemen.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: From thread
"Has Anyone Read The Unknown Arabs by Tariq Berry?"
Ok there are in fact many accounts of Arabs marrying into royal families and there were migrations to the “western Sudan” probably since very early times but did you post a specific quote about Zaghawa because I think I might have missed it. I thought Zaghawa were supposed to be amongst the oldest people to have kingdoms. This is what was bothering me because I didn’t see specific information on it although maybe they did come from Arabia. I was frustrated because I felt like you weren't giving me any information
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: It is wrong however to say that populations like the Mande as a whole came from Arabia. On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in Abyssinia in pre-Islamic times from southern Arabia.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
The result of such convergent investigations by scholars working in different fields was that Jacqueline Pirenne, basing herself on the areas material culture, as well as on linguistic and paleographic data, stood Conti Rossinis thesis on its head. She argued that migration was not from Yemen to Ethiopia, but rather in the opposite direction: from Ethiopia to Yemen.
Markellion, it would have been better to respond to ur post on the other posting that deals with the other subject of Tariq's book. Ur responses have little to do with my article on ancient "Ethiopia" - one of the former names of "Arabia".
I guess it would have sounded better if I had said the "ruling classes" were composed of indigenous Africans who had mixed with ancient Arabians. This response as u might remember was a response to why some members and Tarik's book pointed out certain Africans proclaimed an ancient Arabian descent.
Before I answer ur questions I will have to tell u that Zaghawa (likely the same people as the Zaghwe dynasty or Agaw of Ethiopia) were called "Beriberi" due to East African affiliation. They settled the Nilo-Saharan region of the Kamnuri or Bornu ( who are also today called "Beriberi"), and were affiliated with the Jukon, Kwona, Kwararafa groups among the Hausa, Yoruba and other West Africans.
The presence of the Beli-Zaghawa or Erigat (Beja) may also have something to do with the apparently Sabaean tradition of Yarub or Yarab and Hadad (Odudawa) etc. amongst early west African peoples.
It is a fact that the Baliyya or Kudh'a (Kuth) and Hud and other tribes of Himyar(Sabaeans) passed over into Africa and prehistoric times and settled along the Nile at Meroe Blue Nile (the Astaborus) although they could not have differed much from people that were already in the region either biologically or culturally. One early inscription dated several centuries B.C. in Abyssinia mentioned the Adthat (Adah), Beshmat (Beshemoth) and Waran "of the tribe of Ark (Arghu)".
As I have already mentioned previously on several sites whole tribes of Cushites still occupy modern Arabia including peoples named Afar or Afari, Makhir, Hubir, Wubar, Yubir, Haram, Mahra or Mahara and Kara to name just a few. This has been the case for at least 3000 years if not longer.
At some point in time, and according to tradition several points in time, these "Ethiopians" moved from the Tihama (also known as Kush), Yemen and parts of the Asir region fled into Africa as well as India northward to Syria. This occured at various times previous to 1,000 B.C. Such movements as I mentioned above have been pretty much documented through archeology. The problem previously was that European scholars assumed they were different from the population they settled among. However, the region extending to the Indian Ocean had been occupied by Africans and involved trading amongst themselves for thousands of years or since the neolithic as also now acknowledged by archeologists.
Some of these people coming back into Africa were Jewish or Yehudi and gave were ancestral to tribes like the Hudin, Falasha and Sambara who moved southward and westward over centuries giving birth to such peoples Lemba, and other Jewish groups amongst West Africans where they were also "mixed" with indigenous African populations.
Other groups were "Hebraic" but not necessarily Jewish. This is the cause of Josephus' reference to the descendants of Keturah becoming the occupants of the trogodyte regions of Africa.
"From Antiquites of the Jews - Chapter 15
Entitled - "HOW THE NATION OF THE TROGLODYTES WERE DERIVED FROM ABRAHAM BY KETURAH.
ABRAHAM after this married Keturah, by whom six sons were born to him, men of courage, and of sagacious minds: Zambran, and Jazar, and Madan, and Madian, and Josabak, and Sous. Now the sons of Sous were Sabathan and Dadan. The sons of Dadan were Latusim, and Assur, and Luom. The sons of Madiau were Ephas, and Ophren, and Anoch, and Ebidas, and Eldas. Now, for all these sons and grandsons, Abraham contrived to settle them in colonies; and they took possession of Troglodytis, and the country of Arabia the Happy, as far as it reaches to the Red Sea. It is related of this Ophren, that he made war against Libya, and took it, and that his grandchildren, when they inhabited it, called it (from his name) Africa. And indeed Alexander Polyhistor gives his attestation to what I here say; who speaks thus: "Cleodemus the prophet, who was also called Malchus, who wrote a History of the Jews, in agreement with the History of Moses, their legislator, relates, that there were many sons born to Abraham by Keturah: nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two (Apher and Japbran) the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra's daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that Sophon was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated."
For this reason I do not believe ur theory that the myths related to Arabian origins are mostly influenced by recent European or even Islamic Arabian conquests.
I also do not believe groups that claim ancestry in Arabia - as Hebrews from the land of Canaan (originally ancient Asir/Yemen region) - such as the Watutsi, Maghira and Iforas (Tuareg) and other groups were influenced by European colonizlists in claiming ancient "Hebraic" (Arabian) heritage.
Neither do I believe that the Jewish groups in Africa were just making things up. I believe the Hebraic people like the peoople of Qahtan were one and remnants of the African-affiliated culture that arose over 5000 years ago in Arabia. In later times of course the name Punt, Kush Iram seems to refer to kingdoms and or peoples on both sides of the Red Sea. And Ethiopian peoples of Meroe (Sabeans)and the Blue Nile are referred to as Arabians by people like Strabo and other early historians.
It is not impossible that such names of the Madhij or Medjayu (Madiau of Josephus or Madian), Sasu or Shasu (Sous), Afar (Afren son of Madiau or Midian), Anakha Danakil (Anoch or Henoch), Mahra, Begawi or Beja (Begawi - Ezra 8), Baliy (Bela - Genesis 36:32), etc. have been in both areas for at least 3000 years. Nevertheless these names are said to stem from ancient "Sabean" or "Adite" kings. They are also names of peoples or families mentioned in the Hebrew Bible (as shown above). Whether these early chiefs or kings ruled on the Arabian or African side of the Erithraean Sea or both is perhaps the only pertinent question.
Jews of southern Arabia (probably a bit lighter in color than their "Canaanite" ancestors)
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
How is everything in the 19th century Dana?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: How is everything in the 19th century Dana?
Oh - that reminds me. I have to get back there. Thanks, Hammer.
There were people from Arabia who settled in western Sudan and other places but concerning the Zaghawa there are many accounts that say they had the first kingdom of "western Sudan" and they were often pagans. The accounts contradict each other so it wouldn't be a good idea to be overly hasty to say they were Arabs that came in and mixed with indigenous folk:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE]The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Concerning Odudawa people seem to be ignoring the influence of the empire of Benin
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: There were people from Arabia who settled in western Sudan and other places but concerning the Zaghawa there are many accounts that say they had the first kingdom of "western Sudan" and they were often pagans. The accounts contradict each other so it wouldn't be a good idea to be overly hasty to say they were Arabs that came in and mixed with indigenous folk:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: [QUOTE]The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Concerning Odudawa people seem to be ignoring the influence of the empire of Benin
I think it is u that should not be hasty as obviously Garamantians, Benin, etc. and other societies were in "Western Sudan" centuries before the Zaghawa or "Beriberi". And for the last time please stop confusing "Arabs" with ancient Arabians who called themselves Yarab son of Qahtan. U obviously have some unsavory idea of "Arabs" that has nothing to do with Afro-semitic (Canaanite) peoples of thousands of years ago whom Africans claim as their ancestors.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I've read accounts about people of the Jewish faith coming to western Sudan and sometimes becoming "pagans" or taking up pagan customs
However Zaghawa according to many accounts had the first kingdom in "western Sudan".
Edit: Of course maybe some of these writers were wrong or the translator missed something up
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I've read accounts about people of the Jewish faith coming to western Sudan and sometimes becoming "pagans" or taking up pagan customs
However Zaghawa according to many accounts had the first kingdom in "western Sudan".
Edit: Of course maybe some of these writers were wrong or the translator missed something up
Saying something again and again obviouslyl doen't make it so. I can do that, too.
Obviously Garamantians, Benin, etc. and other societies were in "Western Sudan" centuries before the Zaghawa or "Beriberi". And for the last time please stop confusing "Arabs" with ancient Arabians who called themselves Yarab son of Qahtan. U obviously have some unsavory idea of "Arabs" that has nothing to do with Afro-semitic (Canaanite) peoples of thousands of years ago whom Africans claim as their ancestors. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: I know this was directed towards Dana, but to answer your question...no the Ethiopians were not originally a caucasian race. There was an attempt by the historical community very early on to whitewash Ethiopians. This is because Ethiopia's story hasn't fully been told or even realized. Ethiopia rivals Egypt in terms of its importance. This is why old school historians wanted to "lighten them up" I theorize. They are highly regarded in virtually every historical text. Ethiopians have spawned the Sabeans, they may represent the original source of the ancient Egyptians. They founded Abyssinia, an early Christian empire, stood against the Romans (and I think there may be more to this story). They were considered "Hamitic" and totally part of psuedo-Arabic stock. Now, to be clear...yes a certain part of Ethiopian society/culture is ethnically-influenced by Arabs. But as Dana shows and as I did in the African/Arabic Connection thread, and evidence, groups of Black Africans also migrated to Arabia and Yemen...it wasn't a one-way flow of genes. Which is why a British man found Swahili being spoken by groups in Saudi Arabia. But you must also understand that there are also many Ethiopians that are either not as mixed or not mixed at all and look as Black as any other African lol.
The attempt to white wash Ethiopia is actually an old one based on two reasons: 1. Ethiopia has one of the oldest civilizations in Africa with some of it still continuing this day and 2. Ethiopia is a site for earliest remains of modern humans. Thus the need to claim these populations from prehistoric to early historical as "Cacasoid".
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammered: How is everything in the 19th century Dana?
I can't speak for Dana but everything seems great apparently, since even 21st century studies of today supports her claims!
How is everything in your trailer park? And I take it your beer and liquor is fine. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Getting back to the topic...
Dana, I suggest you take a look at these several old threads here:
djehuti, no studies support her claims or yours. You are the master of spin and distortion. Nobody in the academic community ever mentions the views you present. Anyone who wants to hear them has to come here and if they do they leave scratching their heads. What we have with you and dana is two frustrated negroes who want to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
If you want to see good examples of Old other Arabian types, check some of the British photo collections from the late 1800s to early 1900s.
^ Nice pics as usual Doug. I was wondering when you'll chime in with your pic parade.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
However Zaghawa according to many accounts had the first kingdom in "western Sudan".
Saying something again and again obviouslyl doen't make it so. I can do that, too. [/QB]
What are you disagreeing with all I said was that many accounts of Zaghawa say that they had the first kingdom of "Western Sudan". Anyway this is on topic because you say they passed through East Africa. Yes people did immigrate to these places from Arabia ect. I'm talking specifically about the Zaghawa. For anyone reading this do not think that I am saying there were no migrations to these places or that I have any prejudices from people from Arabia or wherever I am talking about specific cases like with Odudawa and Zaghawa. Odudawa is likely to have been from the Benin empire
Again I never said these migrations never occurred
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I think it is u that should not be hasty as obviously Garamantians, Benin, etc. and other societies were in "Western Sudan" centuries before the Zaghawa or "Beriberi".
This is very annoying because what I was saying was Odudawa was likely to have come from the Benin empire. The ancientness of Benin only supports this point more
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
page 1 Al-Ya'qubi (9th century) wrote that Zaghawa are "Sudan" and descendants of Ham who traveled westward. Page 2 Zaghawa (according to Ya'qubi) the first to have a kingdom in western Sudan
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammered: djehuti, no studies support her claims or yours. You are the master of spin and distortion. Nobody in the academic community ever mentions the views you present. Anyone who wants to hear them has to come here and if they do they leave scratching their heads. What we have with you and dana is two frustrated negroes who want to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
Yes 'professor', keep repeating your delusions if it makes you feel better. Meanwhile Dana, I, and others will continue to cite mainstream historical and scientific evidence that proves our point. By the way, since you've forgotten I'm Asian American, Dana is Italian, posters like Arwa and a few others have actually lived in Arabia, while YOU are just an intellectually frustrated red-neck from Texas who, every time his racist delusions are shattered, apparently feels the need to medicate on booze or at least that's how you seem judging by your posts. Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
There are many other accounts (see previous post) that claim Zaghawa had the first kingdom of "western Sudan". Whither that is true I don't know but there are sources that make that claim, therefor we shouldn't be overly hasty to accept that they came from Arabia or wherever. The two specific cases I've brought up so far were Odudawa and Zaghawa but I'm not saying people did not migrate to "western Sudan" from Arabia or other places
This shows why Zaghawa are so significant. According to Shaban they were important as soldiers:
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army
quote:We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution
quote:For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
Djehuti, Interesting that nobody teaches the crap you and dana preach and it's the public library must be hiding it all from us.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Markellion, you have to put the arabic writers in context. Western Sudan is a concept that is not precise in any sense. It is a relative term that changed depending on context. Therefore, someone in Egypt could rightly call Chad "western Sudan" as it was South West of Egypt. But that is not the necessarily the same as Western Africa. Case in point, the arabic writers of Morocco and Islamic Spain called West Africa simply Sudan, not western Sudan. Therefore, Western Sudan from the context of the writer and the time frame is literally to the west of the country we now know as Sudan. It does not mean all of West Africa. Likewise, "first" in this context is likewise relative and depends on context. Since this document you are referring to is an arabic source, most likely it means first ARABIC civilization or first civilization that has some affiliation with Arabic in some way in the Chad basin. It does not mean first civilization in an absolute sense.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
This is what the book says page 2
Edit: Your right the meaning of certain things could be distorted in the book
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
quote:The Sudan who went to the west traversed several countries and created several kingdoms. The first of their kingdoms is that of Zaghawa who lived in the place called Kanim....
Then there is the kingdom of Kawkaw, which is the greatest of the realms of the Sudan, the most important and powerful...
Then there is the kingdom of Ghana, whose king is also very powerful. In his country are the gold mines, and under his authority are a number of kings.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Markellion Kanim is the kingdom of Kanem Bornou which existed in Chad and extended into Western Sudan (the modern country). That is not West Africa and has nothing to do with the first civilizations in West Africa. In the sense that Kanem was once connected to the Islamic kingdoms of Sudan calling Kanem "Western Sudan" is not a reference to West Africa.
The term Sudan in Islamic literature is a generic term and had many contexts and could refer to any place from East to West Africa. It is not a precise term. It is similar to the way the word Ethiopia was used to refer to Africa in general. In this sense, Western Sudan literally to the west of the modern country of Sudan.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Of course by "Western Sudan" he means the western half. These scholars decided that Zaghawa belonged to the western half at least according to this book
However there could be interactions since pre-Islamic times the bellow talks about these long distance contacts
"The Negroland of the Arabs examined and explained" 1841
quote: In speaking of Kulwa (Kilwa, or Quiloa), on the eastern coast of Africa, he uses these words:—"A merchant there told me, that the town of Sofalah is half a month's journey from Kulwa, and one month from Yufi in the country of the Limiyin, and that gold is brought from Yufi to Sofalah."" The boldness here evinced in bringing together and joining in commerce countries far asunder, is constantly exhibited in the geographical speculations of an early or ill-informed age. Distances are then enlarged as expediency requires; hypothesis leaps over the vacant spaces, and forcibly stretches the known portions in the opposite sides of a continent till they meet in the centre. Illustrations of this truth may be found in all ages. During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, Abyssinia, Congo, and Monomotapa were all supposed to meet together. One of the Jesuits resident in Abyssinia asserts, that salt was carried from that country to Tomboktu.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Markellion, quoting these ancient books without putting them into context is meaningless. Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa. What you are posting is does not support your argument and you are simply focusing on the same handful of passages from ONE BOOK and spamming almost all threads with the same LITTLE BIT of information and trying to make it seem like it is somehow more than it is: a small piece of a larger puzzle and not the whole picture.
Research does not constitute quoting a few passages out of one book. You have to cross reference and go to the source where possible and look at the larger context and find supporting quotes and passages from other works.
The fact is that the oldest cultures and civilization of West Africa are Ancient Ghana, the Nok, the Dar Tichitt among others. They have nothing to do with the culture of Kanem Bornou which arose in the 9th century. The quote you keep referring to is likely claiming that Kanem Bornou was the first Islamic or Arabic civilization in that region west of modern Sudan. It certainly does not amount to any serious history of West Africa.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Of course your right and just because someone in the 9th century thought that Zaghawa were the first people in all of the western half of "Sudan" to have a kingdom doesn't make it true.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I wasn't actually trying to argue that Zaghawa had the first kingdom or that they were "west Africans" I was trying to show how many accounts differ from Dana's account on Zaghawa. The irony is that these scholars seemed to believe Zaghawa were very ancient. If it said Zaghawa were from the moon it would have shown that not everyone agrees Zaghawa are connected to Yemen
quote:Originally posted by markellion: There are many other accounts (see previous post) that claim Zaghawa had the first kingdom of "western Sudan". Whither that is true I don't know but there are sources that make that claim, therefor we shouldn't be overly hasty to accept that they came from Arabia or wherever.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa.
The thing on long distance trade was to show that different communities were interacting with each other over long distances and probably long before Islam too. Although those accounts were greatly exaggerated
quote: The quote you keep referring to is likely claiming that Kanem Bornou was the first Islamic or Arabic civilization in that region west of modern Sudan. It certainly does not amount to any serious history of West Africa.
It was referring to a Pre-Islamic culture that was in the same region
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I don't think Dana is saying that the first Zaghawa are descended from Arabians. What Dana is saying is that later Islamic Kingdoms such as Kanem and Funj had intermarried with black Southern Arabians. Likewise, the aboriginal nomadic types of Sudan, Ethiopia and Upper Egypt are all related to the Aboriginal type of Arabia. I think you are misunderstanding what she is saying. Therefore the nomadic black populations that populated the Sahara and Sahel into west Africa are distant relatives of the nomadic African types that settled Arabia a long time ago. And indeed their probably has been some travel back and forth.
I have never once said there were not migrations going back and forth. I am talking about her idea associating Zaghawa with Yemen and she is talking about pre-Islamic times.
Again I have never said migrations did not take place
I've posted this before but I'm going to post it again about large scale migrations. Also it talks about trade connections with Ghana which is significant because it links these places together:
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army
quote:We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution
quote:For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Thanks for the link you gave. You can edit your post and shorten it up like this by deleting part of it:
One problem is associating desert life style to Arabia like when the author bellow says "Negro rule" and "law of guinea" as opposed to laws that desert people are supposed to have. And the author also ignores that Walata was under Malian rule. Many of these empires were extending and conquering northward but the colonial way of stressing that this city was no longer a part of Ghanah makes it seem like the "blacks" were losing territory. He doesn't ignore Malian rule for no reason it is all a part of the colonial propaganda
“Negroland of the Arabs Examined and Explained” 1841
quote: Of the laws and usages of Ghanah, such as were capable of enduring after subjection to a foreign power and conversion to the Mohammedan faith, but scanty notices have been transmitted to us. It deserves to be remarked, nevertheless, that the law of inheritance in Ghanah gave the preference to the sister's son, and that the same law remained in force in the fourteenth century in Walata, as well as in the Mandingo kingdom of Mali, where, however, its existence need not create surprise. But in Walata, on the border of the desert, with a population chiefly of Berber origin, the existence of a law so singular, so characteristic of Guinea, and so exactly coinciding with the law of Ghanah, strongly argues the influence of Negro rule, and favours the presumption arising out of what precedes, that Walata was comprised within the limits of Ghanah.
One of the customs of Ghanah, transiently mentioned by El Bekri, calls for some remark. In the presence of the king, the people prostrated themselves, and sprinkled their naked bodies with dust. This agrees exactly with what Ibn Batutah witnessed and justly reprobated at the court of Mali.Such slavish manners could never have originated on the border of the desert, nor where local circumstances give the least encouragement to the love of independence. They are the manners of Western Guinea, and cannot be supposed to have ever existed in Houssa, a hilly country, divided into petty states, each cherishing a rude spirit of liberty.....
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I wasn't actually trying to argue that Zaghawa had the first kingdom or that they were "west Africans" I was trying to show how many accounts differ from Dana's account on Zaghawa. The irony is that these scholars seemed to believe Zaghawa were very ancient. If it said Zaghawa were from the moon it would have shown that not everyone agrees Zaghawa are connected to Yemen
quote:Originally posted by markellion: There are many other accounts (see previous post) that claim Zaghawa had the first kingdom of "western Sudan". Whither that is true I don't know but there are sources that make that claim, therefor we shouldn't be overly hasty to accept that they came from Arabia or wherever.
Most peoples in the "Western Sudan" migrated from the Saharan area and from more eastern regions. That is also what Africans believe.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I have never once said there were not migrations going back and forth. I am talking about her idea associating Zaghawa with Yemen and she is talking about pre-Islamic times.
Again I have never said migrations did not take place
I've posted this before but I'm going to post it again about large scale migrations. Also it talks about trade connections with Ghana which is significant because it links these places together:
quote:The sudden and conspicuous appearance of the Sudan amongst the armies of Ibn Tulun in Egypt calls for an explanation. Some sources like us to believe that he bought as many as 40,000 Negro slaves and made soldieries out of them to build up an empire of his own. Buying such a number of slaves, let alone training them to be an effective fighting force in a completely unfamiliar territory, would certainly have required more time than the few years that preceded their appearance in Egypt and subsequently in Syria and on the Byzantine borders in the early years of Ibn Tuluns rule 868/884. Other sources more accurately inform us that he enlisted these Sudan in his army
quote:We are here concerned with the Zaghawa, the name of a tribe and its territory which bordered the south of the Sahara and extended west from what is now the western Sudan across Chad, Niger and Northern Nigeria to Upper Vota. Through these regions passed an important trade route that started from Ghana and continued all the way to the Egyptian Oasis and then either to the Nile Valley or to Tripolitania.. The good relations with the king of Nubia, who had had his Nubia House in Fustat since the days of Mutasim, provided the solution
quote:For the Zaghawa the Nubian route was a much safer one that would save them from the hazards of the desert. Once this was established, their increasing presence in Egypt was almost a logical consequence and a clear indication of their interest is widening the scope of their trade. Ibn Tulun would have no objection to such an expansion which could only enhance the wealth of his domains. This common interest created the opportunity for military as well as economic co-operation which explains the enlistment of the Sudan in the army of Egypt
It is not "my idea" to associate the Zaghawa or Zaghwe or any other group of Africans with the Yemen or Arabia. It is the African sources that do that. But, most importantly that is not what this blog is about.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I don't think Dana is saying that the first Zaghawa are descended from Arabians. What Dana is saying is that later Islamic Kingdoms such as Kanem and Funj had intermarried with black Southern Arabians. Likewise, the aboriginal nomadic types of Sudan, Ethiopia and Upper Egypt are all related to the Aboriginal type of Arabia. I think you are misunderstanding what she is saying. Therefore the nomadic black populations that populated the Sahara and Sahel into west Africa are distant relatives of the nomadic African types that settled Arabia a long time ago. And indeed their probably has been some travel back and forth.
Thanks for the explanation Doug. It's just what I'm trying to say. I guess I am not being all that "confusing" after all as you show some are able to understand what I have written.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: It is not "my idea" to associate the Zaghawa or Zaghwe or any other group of Africans with the Yemen or Arabia. It is the African sources that do that. But, most importantly that is not what this blog is about.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Could you show me these sources? Same thing with Oduduwa. Were you saying these people passed through Ethiopia because that would make it relevant
Again I'm not saying migrations from Yemen didn't happen I'm talking about cases like Oduduwa (who likely is associated with Benin) and Zaghawa. Plus I've given a great amount of information concerning long distance travel and interactions
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
You said this in the other thread you've also said things here that indicate that Zaghawa were late comers in the region. This is why I pointed out the irony of what other scholars wrote. Maybe what you say is true but I'd like some specific information on it
"Has Anyone Read The Unknown Arabs by Tariq Berry?"
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The original Zaghawa are the same people as the Zaghwe Jews of Abyssinia and there is no reason to think that they didn't have some pre-Islamic roots in the area of Yemen as their own traditions say.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Many people might misunderstand why I post all these sources my point is to show that migrations did occur. From these sources we might make these three conclusions
1. There were migrations occurring throughout Africa and also traveling over long distances and trade connections and other types of interactions
2. Zaghawa are ancient people and already had a kingdom since very early times
3. The Zaghawa were traveling in large numbers to enlist as soldiers in Muslim armies in the 9th century
Perhaps one of these points isn't true but if these are true, we could conclude that there might have been movements of Zaghawa into Yemen since pre-Islamic times because maybe this kind of movement was going on since before the 9th century.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
From my experience just about everything written has been mistranslated in one way or another so everything should be seen with skepticism because the translator can change the meaning of things just a little bit and it can give a distorted view of the original writings. However from what I can find the Zaghawa were very influential so mabye they had some influence in "West Africa" (places to the far west of them) in pre-Islamic times. There is a mention in this book about an Arab being part of the royal line of Kanim rulers but I don't have the book with me
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
He confirmed that during periods of strength Kanim expanded northward into the Sahara, rather than southward
page 44
From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan. God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him...
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammered: Djehuti, Interesting that nobody teaches the crap you and dana preach and it's the public library must be hiding it all from us.
Apparently not, since I mentioned that books I've read from the library years ago that are decades old including encyclopedic works state that the populations of Arabia have African ancestry.
How about you cite a book or any source that states otherwise. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
To Markellion and Dana, I believe there is some confusion as to what is meant by "Western Sudan". One definition entails a region of the modern nation of Sudan while another entails a Western region of the African continent.
As Doug has pointed out, before 'Sudan' became the name of a country it was used to designate an entire tract of Africa from the Red Sea coast of Eritrea to the Atlantic coast of Senegal.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I was never claiming they were western Africa or whatever I was showing that many sources don't associate them with having come from Yemen. These sources just happened to mention them as "western Sudan" but I was showing these sources to show they didn't associate them with Yemen.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Zaghawa are not from Yemen
The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Dana the Above is totally wrong Mande and Sonink are not mixed with Yemeni were do u get this information from
and Zaghawa has nothing to do with the Zagwa dynasty of ethiopian jewish kings who were not tigrean but of Qemant and Agaw that is were u get Zagwa or Zagaw people or Agaw people who were jews
The Zaghawa of Sudan are in Darfur amongst the Fur and Masalait tribes. The problem in Darfur is the Fur people vs Zaghawa and Masalait tribe over water and grazing land
Arabs have a history of claiming that Habashi meaning modern day Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia as being Arabs. If u ever read Tariq Al Habashi which is a Islamic arabic book mainly used in Al Azhar and Saudi Arabia and most of the Islamic instuitutions
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Zaghawa are not from Yemen
The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
Dana the Above is totally wrong Mande and Sonink are not mixed with Yemeni were do u get this information from
and Zaghawa has nothing to do with the Zagwa dynasty of ethiopian jewish kings who were not tigrean but of Qemant and Agaw that is were u get Zagwa or Zagaw people or Agaw people who were jews
The Zaghawa of Sudan are in Darfur amongst the Fur and Masalait tribes. The problem in Darfur is the Fur people vs Zaghawa and Masalait tribe over water and grazing land
Arabs have a history of claiming that Habashi meaning modern day Eritrea, Northern Ethiopia as being Arabs. If u ever read Tariq Al Habashi which is a Islamic arabic book mainly used in Al Azhar and Saudi Arabia and most of the Islamic instuitutions
Like I said before I am trying to explain why zaghawa and certain Mande speakers have traditions of Yemenite origin. I never said the Zaghawa are from Yemen.
I have tried to explain why these traditions exist among African themselves. If you are not aware of the African traditions that say such then you should say so instead of suggesting that I made these claims.
The name Zaghwe means the Agaw (Cushitic speakers) whom LIKE ALL CUSHITIC SPEAKERS have traditions of coming from Arabia. I don't know for certain if the Zaghawa were directly related to Zagwe. That is something that was brought up by certain European colonial historians like Richmond Palmer and mainly due to the fact that the Zaghawa were called "Beriberi" like the Cushitic peoples further East THEY CLAIMED TO HAVE COME FROM.
I think you also need like Markellion to stop confusing the idea of modern Arabians coming into North Africa with the fact proven by archeologists and held in traditions of Cushitic and Tuareg people that came from Yemenites (Canaan).
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Markellion and Dana, I believe there is some confusion as to what is meant by "Western Sudan". One definition entails a region of the modern nation of Sudan while another entails a Western region of the African continent.
As Doug has pointed out, before 'Sudan' became the name of a country it was used to designate an entire tract of Africa from the Red Sea coast of Eritrea to the Atlantic coast of Senegal.
The phrase 'the Sudan', is in fact still used for that entire tract. If Markellion is not aware of this it is another reason why I should not corresponding with him on these matters.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I am very much aware of this but if you gave any specific information about Zaghawa I would appreciate it if you point it out again because I must have missed it
In fact except for you nothing I've read has ever mentioned Zaghawa being related to Yemen
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Wow!!! Hats off to you Dana. A refreshing change to the air-heads that frequent this forum(not the vets). Really informative and new to me and many lurkers. Keep it up.
Sage . . I think you got some competition.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] WHEN ARABIA WAS “EASTERN ETHIOPIA” Part I By Dana Marniche
The Indigenous Populations of Arabia
In reality most dialects classified as Semitic are found in Ethiopia and these have been found to not deviate enough from the so called Cushitic language group to qualify as a separate linguistic group thus the terms Semitic and Hamitic have fallen into disfavour among modern linguists and other academics and the name AfroAsiatic has come to be used to comprise both language groups. In fact, the original culture of Abraham and early “Semitic” populations are widespread in Africa and even unmodified in some cases. Similarly deities that were venerated by Semitic speaking people of Asia, such as “the Aramaeans” and “the Akkadians” are still found among Ethiopians and other Africans.
The following quotes are from 19th and early 20th century Western historians, whom unlike today’s historians, understood the strong connection of the original Arabians with the Ethiopic peoples of Africa.
1869 “The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, are known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.” — The New Larned History for Ready Reference Reading and Research, 1922 citing F. Lenormant, Manual of Ancient History, bk. 7, ch. 2. published 1869.
1869 - “To the Cushite race belongs the oldest and purest Arabian blood, and also that great and very ancient civilization whose ruins abound in almost every district of the country….The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia. “ John Baldwin from Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity; Harpers 1869.
1881 “ A third body of the Cushites went to the north of the Egypt and founded, on the east of the Delta, the kingdom of the so-called Hyksos , whom tradition designated sometimes as Phoenicians sometimes as Arabians, and in both cases rightly…Lepsius has proved by excellent reasons the Cushite origins of the Hyksos statues from San (Tanis) now in the museum of Boulaq and has made more than merely probable the immigration of the Cushites into the region of the Delta…” p. 402 Heinrich Karl Brugsh in A History of Egypt Under the Pharaohs Derived Entirely from the Monuments, published by John Murray 1881, Vol 2, 2nd edition.
1872 - “Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.” Traditions, Superstitions and Folklore, Charles Hardwick , Manchester A. Ireland and Company, 1872
1891 - …the Cushite Arabians and the Chaldeans, the founders of the first historic civilization in Babylonia being certainly Hamitic, though early mixed with Semitic tribes, long before Assyrian rule. Charles William Hutson , The Beginnings of Civilization, The Columbian Publishing Co., New York. 1891.
1902 - “Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full, rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.” by Henry Field Anthropology, Memoirs Field Museum Press Anthropology, Memoirs Arabs of Central Iraq; Their History, Ethnology and Physical C haracters, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4,. . . . . [qb][quote] Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
I've admired Dana for near two decades so I'd say a most welcome colleague, though not quite the same focus. Company beats competition any day when persuing a broad based multilevel view of Africana which is much prefered over myopic egoistic dogma.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sage . . I think you got some competition.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Hope the young guys are taking notes.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I am very much aware of this but if you gave any specific information about Zaghawa I would appreciate it if you point it out again because I must have missed it
In fact except for you nothing I've read has ever mentioned Zaghawa being related to Yemen
Markellion - I just answered this question on the posting about Tariq Berry's book where u asked it.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Wow!!! Hats off to you Dana. A refreshing change to the air-heads that frequent this forum(not the vets). Really informative and new to me and many lurkers. Keep it up.
Sage . . I think you got some competition.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [QB] WHEN ARABIA WAS “EASTERN ETHIOPIA” Part I By Dana Marniche
The Indigenous Populations of Arabia
In reality most dialects classified as Semitic are found in Ethiopia and these have been found to not deviate enough from the so called Cushitic language group to qualify as a separate linguistic group thus the terms Semitic and Hamitic have fallen into disfavour among modern linguists and other academics and the name AfroAsiatic has come to be used to comprise both language groups. In fact, the original culture of Abraham and early “Semitic” populations are widespread in Africa and even unmodified in some cases. Similarly deities that were venerated by Semitic speaking people of Asia, such as “the Aramaeans” and “the Akkadians” are still found among Ethiopians and other Africans.
The following quotes are from 19th and early 20th century Western historians, whom unlike today’s historians, understood the strong connection of the original Arabians with the Ethiopic peoples of Africa.
1869 “The Cushites. the first inhabitants of Arabia, are known in the national traditions by the name of Adites, from their progenitor, who is called Ad, the grandson of Ham.” — The New Larned History for Ready Reference Reading and Research, 1922 citing F. Lenormant, Manual of Ancient History, bk. 7, ch. 2. published 1869.
1869 - “To the Cushite race belongs the oldest and purest Arabian blood, and also that great and very ancient civilization whose ruins abound in almost every district of the country….The south Arabs represent a residue of hamitic populations which at one time occupied the whole of Arabia. “ John Baldwin from Pre-historic nations or inquiries Concerning Some of the Great peoples and Civilizations of Antiquity; Harpers 1869.
1881 “ A third body of the Cushites went to the north of the Egypt and founded, on the east of the Delta, the kingdom of the so-called Hyksos , whom tradition designated sometimes as Phoenicians sometimes as Arabians, and in both cases rightly…Lepsius has proved by excellent reasons the Cushite origins of the Hyksos statues from San (Tanis) now in the museum of Boulaq and has made more than merely probable the immigration of the Cushites into the region of the Delta…” p. 402 Heinrich Karl Brugsh in A History of Egypt Under the Pharaohs Derived Entirely from the Monuments, published by John Murray 1881, Vol 2, 2nd edition.
1872 - “Mr. Baldwin draws a marked distinction between the modern Mahomedan Semitic population of Arabia and their great Cushite, Hamite, or Ethiopian predecessors. The former, he says, ‘are comparatively modern in Arabia,’ they have ‘appropriated the reputation of the old race,’ and have unduly occupied the chief attention of modern scholars.” Traditions, Superstitions and Folklore, Charles Hardwick , Manchester A. Ireland and Company, 1872
1891 - …the Cushite Arabians and the Chaldeans, the founders of the first historic civilization in Babylonia being certainly Hamitic, though early mixed with Semitic tribes, long before Assyrian rule. Charles William Hutson , The Beginnings of Civilization, The Columbian Publishing Co., New York. 1891.
1902 - “Among ‘these Negroid features which may be counted normal in Arabs are the full, rather everted lips, shortness and width of nose, certain blanks in the bearded areas of the face between the lower lip and chin and on the cheeks; large, luscious,gazelle-like eyes, a dark brown complexion, and a tendency for the hair to grow in ringlets. Often the features of the more Negroid Arabs are derivatives of Dravidian India rather than inheritances of Hamitic Africa. Although the Arab of today is sharply differentiated from the Negro of Africa, yet there must have been a time when both were represented by a single ancestral stock; in no other way can the prevalence of certain Negroid features be accounted for in the natives of Arabia.” by Henry Field Anthropology, Memoirs Field Museum Press Anthropology, Memoirs Arabs of Central Iraq; Their History, Ethnology and Physical C haracters, Anthropology Memoirs Volume 4,. . . . . [qb][quote]
Well -I definitely am not trying to compete with anyone but I appreciate ur response. If u like this please see the other postings on this site Yemenites in Spain and the Rasta site Fear of Blackness. As well as part 3 and 4 of When Arabia was Ethiopia. I had intended to make this part of a book I've been researching for the last 30 years but decided its better to get some of this information out as I write in case anything happened, and before the latest genetics theories distort the history of black populations as the "Mediterranean race" theory once did. I've lost information several times through computer malfunctions over decades.
The problem it turns out is that thru my research I have become convinced that most civilizations for thousands of years were "Ethiopic" before they were anything else. So the book will be several volumes long.
In other words, much more to come. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
I forgot to mention this. I thought i had named it Yemenites in Spain so its a bit hard to find.
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: djehuti, no studies support her claims or yours. You are the master of spin and distortion. Nobody in the academic community ever mentions the views you present. Anyone who wants to hear them has to come here and if they do they leave scratching their heads. What we have with you and dana is two frustrated negroes who want to make a silk purse out of a pigs ear.
You must be bald by now Hammer.
By the way I know u think ur the philosopher king but I don't think most people on here will appreciate ur Texan proverb. What - you don't think Negroes can sew.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Getting back to the topic...
Dana, I suggest you take a look at these several old threads here:
Hi djehuti - just noticed these postings. I had past this before as well as Hammered's smartalicky commentary.
Actually I saw ur post below this one and have to say first I'm NOT Italian, nor do i look Italian. LOL. I'm a black American. Although people who come from other countries may not automatically know this I don't want to get any unnecessary rumors started. My surname may have thrown you off. Its Kabyle - from my ex.
Second, i did see the three links you posted which were very interesting. It appears people on this site were already aware of a lot of this stuff some years ago. What happened to Hikuptah I wonder. He or she and some of the others were making some good points. So did vidavida.
Also hope you have changed ur mind about Yonis since then. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If you want to see good examples of Old other Arabian types, check some of the British photo collections from the late 1800s to early 1900s.
I donb't know how I missed so many posts on the first page. I agree with Djehuti, Doug. These are great photos. I have seen other photos u have posted on other egyptsearch forum posts that are very inspiring as well.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
What is the distribution of these black Arabs? Are they found all over the Arabian region, or do they tend to be concentrated in a certain part of that region?
Also, is there any chance that the Prophet Muhammad was one of these black Arabs?
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Al~Jahiz stopped short in reporting Muhammed among the blacks. He only wrote as much as Muhammed's grand father sired sons as black as the night leaving the rest to inference.
There is some kind of law or something in Islam that prescribes death for asserting Muhammed to be black. If it was in effect in al~Jahiz's time it would have gave him pause in outright declaring Muhammed black.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What is the distribution of these black Arabs? Are they found all over the Arabian region, or do they tend to be concentrated in a certain part of that region?
Also, is there any chance that the Prophet Muhammad was one of these black Arabs?
Posted by Leo Minor (Member # 17443) on :
Hi, I really don’t understand this obsession with Turks. Ancient Arabia is today what it was back then in the antiquity, a nation of mixed people. Take a look at some youtubes videos showing Pre-Islamic artifacts, they show all kind of faces.
There is some kind of law or something in Islam that prescribes death for asserting Muhammed to be black. If it was in effect in al~Jahiz's time it would have gave him pause in outright declaring Muhammed black.
Are you sure about that? All I know is that allot of the hadiths were mistranslated into English
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Do the research. I don't have time for your the-all-powerful-Euro-colonialist altered all Arabic texts displaying colour prejudice and Arabs couldn't have enslaved Africans without the-all-powerful-Euro-colonialist historical revisionism.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
A few months months ago someone here talked about hadiths and different translations. I would not have made that comment if it didn't sound as exotic as a death penalty for saying Mohamed was black.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: What is the distribution of these black Arabs? Are they found all over the Arabian region, or do they tend to be concentrated in a certain part of that region?
Also, is there any chance that the Prophet Muhammad was one of these black Arabs?
Yes - in fact they are. They are in they remote towns of Central Arabia and still in the Persian Gulf as well as along the coasts extending up to Sinai. They are basically the remnants of the Arabs that didn't mix with non-Arabs.
They range from dark brown to black in color. In the time of Muhammed due to their fights against the Iranians, Arabians developed what can be called a form of nationalism in which blackness was the ideal.
Thus, even close relatives of Muhammed are documented as boasting of their blackness. One is said to have wondered whether red (white) people should be exterminated. Muahhamed had to calm down the color problem that was going on.
The tribes Muhammed was descended from include the Quraysh, Sulaym, Kinda, Khazraj all described as "black" or "jet black" in one early Arabic text or another. Muhammed in one source is said to have been called Green which is the Arab word Akhdar used to describe someone near black in color.
Although I don't really consider the color of the Muslim prophet that important, one interesting statement by Al Rumi on the prophet's family was brought up either by Tariq Berry or Wesley Muhammed recently.
"'You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color.' "
Thus the question becomes what is the possibility that he had fair skin when the evidence in fact points to "very little".
It was generally recognized that the Arabians who were the real Arabs were black and near it in color "dark brown" in color, such people that were found in Iraq, Iran, and Syria and fiar-skinned were in reality a mixture of subject people with the original Arabs. Among such people of course blackness came to be looked down upon due to the entrance of the Zanj as slaves.
But Syrians, Iraqis and other non-Arab people, like the 9th century al-Mubarrad of Basra said that "Arabs took pride in their blackness" and looked down on people with fair skin.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
There is a Yemeni story about Bab al Mandeb the gate of tears it is called that because of the separation of the the two familys or the Ethiopians on both sides of the Mareb. It is well known in Arabian History that Habashi have been rulers of Arabia for 1000 years ending during the birth of the prophet Muhammed.
Yemen and Modern Day Eritrea,Tigray use to be one country.
I would like to know more information about Christian Nubia, and Christian Axum Who became Christian first my coptic friend claims that ethiopians and egyptian coptics are the same and are the oldest of the world.
Ancient Axum had many Nubians as well as Beja within there kingdoms as well as Baza. Because if u look at Bible scriptures when they speak of the Bronze ethiopians they cant be talking about Nubians but more about modern day ethiopia.
One thing that is universal among all arab scholars and islamic imams and scholars is that islamic revelation claims that the Habashi will destroy Mecca one day as they are destined to rule All of Arabia.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Older than Egypt is Ethiopia From distant past to the dawn of Islam, Gamal Nkrumah looks at the history of this African nation
Ethiopia is old, even older than Egypt, but its antiquity is somewhat different. While Egypt was the world's first indisputable nation-state, unique in its complex politico-religious system augmented by magnificent material remains and a corpus of epic literature, in Ethiopia, the very cradle of mankind, the material evidence of its ancient civilisation alone attests to its former glory.
The Ancient Egyptians, from the earliest times, kept records of their kings and this chronology is central to the chronological structure of the early Aegean, Levantine and Mesopotamian civilisations. It is, however, of no import to Ancient Ethiopia. If the Ethiopians did keep records, these have either been lost for ever or not yet discovered. The attempts by unnamed writers to compile an Ethiopian king-list -- the Kebra Negast or Book of the Glory of Kings -- from the Queen of Sheba to the rise of the Zagwe dynasty, is believed to be a 13th-century creation; its aim seems to have been to establish the political credentials of the so-called Solomonic dynasty, an Ethiopian king-list that traces the rulers of Ancient Axum to Menelik I (originally Bin Ha Malik, The King's Son), the son of the "Israelite" King Solomon and the "Ethiopian" Queen Makeda, the Queen of Sheba.
Confusingly, the Queen of Sheba features prominently in the oral and written traditions of Ethiopia, Yemen and ancient Israel. The Yemenis saw her as a South Arabian queen, the Ethiopians as Axumite. In Arabic her name is Bilquis, in Ethiopia Makeda and in the biblical language of the Israelites she is known as the Queen of Sheba. To add to the confusion, historians suggest that King Solomon must have reigned around the 10th century BC. It is difficult to decipher fact from fiction, but archaeological evidence is indisputable and it reveals that Axum was founded a millennium later.
Click to view caption Ethiopia in pictures --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LUCY-DINKENESH: Ethiopia easily claims the longest archaeological record of any country in the world. It is in Ethiopia that the story of the evolution of mankind began. The remains of the earliest ancestral humans or hominids have been found there. But while sophisticated civilisations historically developed on the Ethiopian highlands, in many parts of the mountains and rugged country, many of its peoples retained a material existence not much different from the hunter-gathering lifestyles of our ancestral hominids.
Two Ethiopian regions stand out as preeminent sites favoured for habitation by the early hominids -- the Omo Valley in the southwestern part of the country, and the Afar or Danakil Depression. To this day, these remote and inhospitable regions remain largely cut off from the outside world. They form different parts of Africa's Great Rift Valley, which runs from central Africa, through the eastern part of the continent, dissecting the Horn of Africa, dividing Arabia from Africa, marking out the outlines of the Sinai Peninsula, and ending somewhat unobtrusively with the Gulf of Aqaba and the River Jordan Valley.
The Omo Valley and the Danakil Depression are markedly different in landscape and terrain. The latter is a desolate and dreary desert, 100 metres below sea level and one of the hottest places on earth, while the Omo Valley is a veritable Garden of Eden with a rich and luxuriant tropical flora and teaming with exotic fauna.
Remains of Australopithecus Afarensis, an early hominid dating as far back as four million years, have been found in an almost complete state in the Danakil Depression, which was not always the arid desert it is today. When the early hominids roamed the Afar region, it was a well-watered and wooded savanna country. In 1974 archaeologists excavating sites in the Awash River Valley discovered the skeletal remains of a female hominid whom they promptly named "Lucy" (apparently because they were listening to the song Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds by the Beetles). The diminutive three-and-half-feet tall Lucy -- known as Dinkenesh or "Thou art beautiful" in Amharic, Ethiopia's official language -- lived some 3.5 million years ago. Her skeletal remains are now deposited at the National Museum of Addis Ababa, which is also home to a host of other prehistoric remains.
THE ANTECEDENTS OF AXUM: The history of Ethiopia goes back a long way. The profusion of Stone Age tools and cave paintings hint at the industriousness and vibrancy of the lifestyles of the earliest Ethiopians and attests to the country's antiquity. During the Chalcolithic Age (6200-3000 BC) the inhabitants began cultivating grains and crops that are still much in use in Ethiopia today. Indigenous grasses and grains, such as teff, from which the national Ethiopian sour pancake-like moist bread is made, began to be extensively cultivated as a staple food. The ensete, a root crop known as the false banana because the plant resembles the banana tree but bears no edible fruit, was also grown in the southern and central parts of the Ethiopian Highlands. Sorghum, barley and buckwheat were also cultivated.
From late prehistoric times patterns of livelihood were established that were to become characteristic of Ethiopia down through the ages and right up to contemporary times. The Early Bronze Age (3000 BC) witnessed the domestication of cattle, a process which had started much earlier in neighbouring Sudan. At this stage of development, regular interaction between the indigenous peoples of Ethiopia and their neighbours first began.
The close proximity of the Ethiopian highlands to the Red Sea has always provided the main line of external communication. This stretch of water has, since time immemorial, provided a means of transport and the Ancient Egyptians recorded voyages to the Land of Punt -- God's Land. To them, Punt was the most ancient country, a sacred territory.
Queen Hatshepsut in the 18th dynasty (1540-1304 BC) dispatched a diplomatic and trading mission to Punt, beautifully depicted on her funerary temple at Deir Al-Bahri. Punt was also the source of a host of exotic goods such as gold, ivory, ostrich feathers, animal skins and hides.
Egyptian legends sometimes referred to Punt as a land ruled by serpent-kings. Interestingly enough, material and literary evidence suggest some form of serpent-worship before the advent of Christianity in Ethiopia. Could then, Ethiopia be the Punt of the Egyptians? To carry the argument further, the sturdy tankwas, or papyrus canoes, that ply Lake Tana -- the source of the Blue Nile -- are curiously reminiscent of the Ancient Egyptian reed boats.
The Hebrews, too, seem to have maintained links with Ancient Ethiopia. The marital union of the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon was not the first biblical reference to a Hebrew-Ethiopian marriage. According to the Bible Moses had an Ethiopian wife. "And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman," we read in the Book of Numbers.
Ethiopia appears in the King James Version 45 times. Most references to Ethiopia are cited in the Old Testament, not always in the most favourable light. Still, there appears to have been some familiarity with Ethiopian geography in the Levant with frequent biblical references to the rivers of Ethiopia, such as Gihon.
The centrality of the Solomonic link to the Ethiopian heritage is challenged by concrete archaeological evidence. "The Queen of Sheba is clearly recalled as a contemporary of King Solomon, whose reign must be placed around the 10th century BC. There is no archaeological evidence that the site of Axum was settled until one thousand years after this date," argues David W Phillipson in Ancient Ethiopia, published by British Museum Press, 1998.
AXUM: This most celebrated state of Ancient Ethiopia could, in its heyday, be compared in grandeur with the empires of Rome, Persia and Ancient China. Among the most imposing features of its material culture are monumental stelae that mark the burial catacombs of Axumite kings. Some 120 survive today -- many in a dilapidated state of disrepair. The largest is over 30 metres long, albeit no longer standing upright. It was the largest single stone ever quarried in the ancient world. The stelae of Axum are grave markers with which catacombs are invariably associated. Shafts, underground passages and chambers are always found nearby. Alas, most of the burial chambers were looted in antiquity, and only a few broken grave-goods were left by robbers
Byzantine Greek and Roman references to Axum -- a prosperous state which at its zenith stretched from Nubia to Yemen and Hejaz, and encompassed much of the Horn of Africa -- abound. The kingdom, in conjunction with the Nabateans and southern Arabians, apparently held a monopoly over the spice and incense trade.
Relations between Axum and some of its other neighbours remain unclear. We know that Axum's fabled King Ezana (who reigned from 325 to 360 AD) controlled Mero‘ (the once thriving Nubian kingdom) and Yemen as well as the Red Sea coast up to Suakin in Sudan. We know also that Ezana's armies overran Mero‘ when it was in its last throes. A trilingual inscription, vaguely reminiscent of the Rosetta Stone, was erected by Ezana recording his victories over the Nubians in three languages -- Sabaean, Ge'ez and Greek.
The Axumite empire's heartland was the highlands of northern Ethiopia and southern Eritrea. The most impressive ruins are to be found in the northern Ethiopian region of Tigray, and to a lesser extent in Eritrea. The capital, Axum, in northern Tigray still stands today -- a mere shadow of its former glory.
Axum's rulers assumed the title of Negust Nagast, King of Kings, and started minting coins that provide an interesting chronology of the rulers of Axum. No other kingdom in Africa south of the Sahara did this, and the study of the Axumite coinage system reveals much about the development of the political structure, religion and culture of the ancient empire. For example, the earliest Axumite coins bore the crescent and sun-disc, or crescent and star -- designs characteristic of the pagan religion where moon and sun worship was prevalent. Later, when Christianity was officially adopted as a state religion, the cross replaced the crescent and sun-disc as state emblems engraved on official Axumite coins. Many of the earliest coins also had Greek inscriptions but, as Axum grew in importance, the Greek inscriptions were replaced by Ge'ez inscriptions (see box).
Christianity was adopted as a state religion in Ethiopia in the fourth century AD. According to tradition, two Christian youths from Tyre, Aedesius and Frumentius, were shipwrecked on the Red Sea coast of what is today Eritrea. They were taken to Axum, became tutors of the future king, and later Frumentius left Ethiopia for Alexandria and asked the Coptic Patriarch of Egypt to send a bishop to head the nascent Ethiopian Church. Frumentius was consecrated. He assumed the name Abuna Salama, initiating a tradition, whereby the Archbishops of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church were consecrated by the Coptic Pope, which lasted until the early 1970s.
ETHIOPIA AND YEMEN: The history of Ancient Ethiopia cannot be separated from that of Ancient Yemen, whose recorded history stretches back over 3,000 years. Archaeological evidence shows that settled agricultural communities were established in the Yemeni highlands by the third millennium BC. Urban centres soon developed supported by the surrounding farming countryside. Masonry flourished and monumental sculptures and massive stone architecture were erected. Sophisticated irrigation works were also constructed which attest to a high degree of material sophistication. States like Hadhramaut, Saba, with it capital Ma'rib, and later Himyar thrived as industrious mercantile nations that monopolised the spice and incense trade of the ancient world.
Successive civilisations of Mineans, Sabaeans and Himyarites interacted closely with their counterparts in Ethiopia. The precise nature of the relationship between the people who inhabited Ancient Yemen and their contemporaries across the Red Sea in Ethiopia is unknown. What is clear, however, is that due to geographical proximity, strong cultural and trading links developed between the most celebrated of Ancient Yemeni civilisations, Saba, and the peoples of Ethiopia. Archaeological research based on the results of excavations and the study of extant monuments and artefacts by Western and Ethiopian scholars reveal growing cultural and trade contacts between them.
It is difficult to acertain how far Axum, the most glorious of Ethiopia's earliest civilisations, can be viewed as a direct heir to Saba. The mystification is deepened by the confusion between Sheba, a variation of Saba, and Ethiopia in the Bible and other mediaeval documents. Sheba, or the Kingdom of the South, could equally refer to either Yemen or Axum.
That controversy apart, there is no doubt that the cultures and histories of Saba and Ethiopia were inextricably intertwined. The Sabaeans were highly skilled masons and water engineers and, not many centuries after they constructed the Ma'rib Dam, walled cities and other architectural wonders, similar structures began to be erected in Ethiopia.
Scholars claim that some 2,500 years ago, successive waves of Semitic people from southern Arabia crossed the Red Sea into what is now Ethiopia, they brought with them their Semitic language and script. Around the fifth century BC, there is archaeological evidence to show that the Semitic influences intensified. Sabaean merchants and perhaps armies moved across the Red Sea into Ethiopia, as attested by the many Sabean inscriptions dating to that period. In time they produced a pre-Axumite culture which ripened into a proto-Axumite culture.
We know next to nothing of the pagan religion of the Axumites. In sharp contrast, much is known today about the Ancient Egyptian religious beliefs and practices. We know the names and attributes of Ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses, but little is known about the nature of worship in Ancient Ethiopia -- save perhaps that serpents were sacred creatures and maybe the sun, moon and stars were worshipped, as in Ancient Arabia. Archaeological evidence suggests that South Arabian gods and goddesses were worshipped in Ethiopia before the advent of Christianity. Nothing, though, is conclusive. Archaeological evidence points to the influx of settlers and cultural influences from Yemen, across the Red Sea, into Ethiopia at least about 800 BC, in all probability much earlier. The Red Sea proved no impediment to trade and cultural exchange. Yemen at the time was at the centre of a trading network that linked Egypt and the eastern Mediterranean world -- what is today Greece, Turkey and the Levant -- with Yemen and onwards to Oman, the Arabian Gulf, present day Iraq, Iran and India, perhaps even beyond. In Yemen, the Minaean Civilisation was absorbed or superseded by the celebrated Sabaean Civilisation about 1000 BC. Trade relations were revolutionised when the inhabitants of Arabia domesticated the dromedary, or one- humped camel, in the 11th century BC.
The domestication of the dromedary made it easier to transport goods over more desolate regions. The spice trade was the mainstay of the economy. The Sabaeans were great builders and the imposing dam they constructed near Ma'rib, their capital, stands testimony to their accomplished architectural skills. They lived in multistoried apartment blocks in walled cities with monumental gates. From the windows and door designs on the Axumite stelae, it appears that these particular Sabaean colonists probably settled in Ethiopia in much the same way as Europeans settled in America. Indeed, interaction between Yemen and Ethiopia in ancient times is sometimes compared with the historical relationship between Europe and America, with the Red Sea as substitute for the Atlantic Ocean.
The Sabaeans united southern Arabia into a single political entity by the third century BC. By the time of the birth of Jesus Christ, they had expanded their empire to include Ethiopian lands across the Red Sea. With Sabaean power waning in the fifth and sixth centuries AD, their empire was conquered by the Ethiopians in 525. The Sabaean civilisation endured for 14 centuries lasting from around 800 BC to 600 AD. And as Saba declined, Axum arose. The tables were soon turned and Ethiopia had the upper hand. For many centuries afterwards, Yemen remained under Axumite suzerainty.
Trade and cultural exchanges between Sabaean Yemen and Ancient pre-Axumite Ethiopia were strengthened. Artefacts and stone slabs bearing the Sabaean script of southern Arabia became more common in Ethiopia. Soon the monumental stone structures similar to those in Ancient Yemen began to appear in Eritrea and northern Ethiopia. The Temple of the Moon in Yeha is the largest surviving structure in East Africa.
With the rise of Islam in the seventh century AD, Axum lost Yemen and Hejaz, and the once flourishing empire shrunk back to its original core region of the northern Ethiopian highlands.
Ge'ez the sacred tongue LINGUISTIC affinities between Ethiopia and the Arab world are as strong today as they were in bygone days. Ge'ez, Amharic and Tigrinya are related to Arabic. There are some 80 different languages spoken in Ethiopia, but the country's official language is Amharinya, better known outside Ethiopia as Amharic. It is the language of higher education, most modern literature and government. Historical linguists generally hold that the languages spoken by a majority of the inhabitants of Ethiopia today, namely the Afro-Asian languages, have their roots in northeastern Africa. The area covered by speakers of the Afro- Asian linguistic group spans a huge swathe of territory from northwestern Africa, the Sahara, eastern and northeastern Africa, Arabia and southwestern Asia. The Afro-Asian group of languages is divided into Semitic, Cushitic and Omotic -- and speakers of all three groups are found in Ethiopia. Indeed, Ethiopia is the only country where all the three linguistic groups are currently in use.
Scholars also suggest that first Omotic and then Cushitic speaking peoples moved into the Ethiopian highlands about 7,000 BC. The Semitic-speaking peoples entered Ethiopia at a later date. Speakers of the Nilotic languages spanning a vast territory in Sudan and other East African countries such as Kenya and Tanzania inhabit in the southwestern extremities of Ethiopia, and it is not known if they previously inhabited other areas of the country. Of the Cushitic languages spoken in Ethiopia, the most widespread is Oromo followed by Somali and Sidamo. But the recorded history of Ethiopia has traditionally been the domain of the country's Semitic speakers.
The foremost of the Semitic languages of Ethiopia is Ge'ez, widely regarded as an offshoot of Sabaean, held in special esteem.
Ethiopia has one of the longest continuous literate traditions in Africa. It is a literary tradition where Ge'ez plays a central, all-important role. Ge'ez is to Ethiopia what Latin is to Europe. Ge'ez, the liturgical language of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and the official court language of the Axumites, borrowed 24 symbols from the Sabaean writing system.
Amharic, the official language of contemporary Ethiopia, is derived from Ge'ez. Two other languages are closely related to it -- Tigre, spoken in Eritrea; and Tigrinya spoken in Tigray, northern Ethiopia, as well as in Eritrea. Both Amharic and Tigrinya use a modified version of the Ge'ez script.
The Axumites left behind a body of written records in Greek and Ge'ez. The Bible was translated into Ge'ez from Greek, and the Ge'ez alphabet bears an uncanny resemblance to both the Coptic and Greek scripts. Ge'ez , which ceased to be a spoken language in the 10th century, is still widely studied by academic scholars who specialise in Ancient Ethiopia.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: Older than Egypt is Ethiopia From distant past to the dawn of Islam, Gamal Nkrumah looks at the history of this African nation
You can always make your own thread to post on rather than disrupting this one to which your post was not related.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: There is a Yemeni story about Bab al Mandeb the gate of tears it is called that because of the separation of the the two familys or the Ethiopians on both sides of the Mareb. It is well known in Arabian History that Habashi have been rulers of Arabia for 1000 years ending during the birth of the prophet Muhammed.
Yemen and Modern Day Eritrea,Tigray use to be one country.
I would like to know more information about Christian Nubia, and Christian Axum Who became Christian first my coptic friend claims that ethiopians and egyptian coptics are the same and are the oldest of the world.
Ancient Axum had many Nubians as well as Beja within there kingdoms as well as Baza. Because if u look at Bible scriptures when they speak of the Bronze ethiopians they cant be talking about Nubians but more about modern day ethiopia.
One thing that is universal among all arab scholars and islamic imams and scholars is that islamic revelation claims that the Habashi will destroy Mecca one day as they are destined to rule All of Arabia.
You are right in saying that the Tigrai Province and Yemen used to be one people. That connection began over 5,000 years ago and was one reason Arabia was called "Ethiopia".
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: There is a Yemeni story about Bab al Mandeb the gate of tears it is called that because of the separation of the the two familys or the Ethiopians on both sides of the Mareb. It is well known in Arabian History that Habashi have been rulers of Arabia for 1000 years ending during the birth of the prophet Muhammed.
Yemen and Modern Day Eritrea,Tigray use to be one country.
I would like to know more information about Christian Nubia, and Christian Axum Who became Christian first my coptic friend claims that ethiopians and egyptian coptics are the same and are the oldest of the world.
Ancient Axum had many Nubians as well as Beja within there kingdoms as well as Baza. Because if u look at Bible scriptures when they speak of the Bronze ethiopians they cant be talking about Nubians but more about modern day ethiopia.
One thing that is universal among all arab scholars and islamic imams and scholars is that islamic revelation claims that the Habashi will destroy Mecca one day as they are destined to rule All of Arabia.
You are right in saying that the Tigrai Province and Yemen used to be one people. That connection began over 5,000 years ago and was one reason Arabia was called "Ethiopia".
The oldest Christians according to ancient Jewish texts were the Meunim or Ma'in fishermen of the Tihama Asir. They influenced the early kinsmen Azdites, the Ghassan and Lakhmids or Bait Lahm who founded (Bethlehem)in Syria and lived in Hira. These people in Arabia were called Azdites many of whom were Jewish before they became Christian.
The related Baliyy or El Beliun of the Banu Kuda'a (Kuth) moved into Egypt's eastern deserts and Nubia and were the "Jacobite Christian" section of the Beja who otherwise were known as Magians.
They were called Balau or Balawi in Eritrea. The Beja then moved into the Tigrean province and Christianity spead through them to other Amhara related people.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Yes - in fact they are. They are in they remote towns of Central Arabia and still in the Persian Gulf as well as along the coasts extending up to Sinai. They are basically the remnants of the Arabs that didn't mix with non-Arabs.
They range from dark brown to black in color. In the time of Muhammed due to their fights against the Iranians, Arabians developed what can be called a form of nationalism in which blackness was the ideal.
Thus, even close relatives of Muhammed are documented as boasting of their blackness. One is said to have wondered whether red (white) people should be exterminated. Muahhamed had to calm down the color problem that was going on.
The tribes Muhammed was descended from include the Quraysh, Sulaym, Kinda, Khazraj all described as "black" or "jet black" in one early Arabic text or another. Muhammed in one source is said to have been called Green which is the Arab word Akhdar used to describe someone near black in color.
Although I don't really consider the color of the Muslim prophet that important, one interesting statement by Al Rumi on the prophet's family was brought up either by Tariq Berry or Wesley Muhammed recently.
"'You insulted them (the family of the Prophet Mohamed) because of their blackness while there are still pure-blooded black-skinned Arabs. However, you are blue (eyed) - the Romans have embellished your faces with their color.' "
Thus the question becomes what is the possibility that he had fair skin when the evidence in fact points to "very little".
It was generally recognized that the Arabians who were the real Arabs were black and near it in color "dark brown" in color, such people that were found in Iraq, Iran, and Syria and fiar-skinned were in reality a mixture of subject people with the original Arabs. Among such people of course blackness came to be looked down upon due to the entrance of the Zanj as slaves.
But Syrians, Iraqis and other non-Arab people, like the 9th century al-Mubarrad of Basra said that "Arabs took pride in their blackness" and looked down on people with fair skin.
Not that I doubt the above, but how do you explain certain passages in the Quran or Hadith that making disparaging remarks about blacks??
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Not that I doubt the above, but how do you explain certain passages in the Quran or Hadith that making disparaging remarks about blacks??
I think it is because of mistranslations someone a few months ago talked about mistranslated hadiths and what the hadiths really meant. I hope people give some information to shine light on the matter:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
Well I had mentioned this previously. Many of the hadith were written by non-Arabs, especially Iranian Arabs or Arabs of Iranian descent who had settled in Yemen like Munabbih. Many of them appear to have been unfamiliar of Arabian culture and physical appearance writing about things like how they ate with their hands or that Muhammed said something about being respectful to a man "even if he had hair" was like raisins.
When even fair- skinned people today from modern southern Palestine to Jordan have kinky and even woolly hair it becomes obvious that the "even if he had hair on his head like raisins" descriptive addendum of some lank haired person in some non-Arab place like Iran or Syria.
This bedouin of Jordan reflects the appearance of many Jordanian and Hejaz clans. His appearance was probably typical of the most Arabians of Muhammed's time and much later if we are to believe Dhahabi 14th century Syrian.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche:
Well I had mentioned this previously. Many of the hadith were written by non-Arabs, especially Iranian Arabs or Arabs of Iranian descent who had settled in Yemen like Munabbih. Many of them appear to have been unfamiliar of Arabian culture and physical appearance writing about things like how they ate with their hands or that Muhammed said something about being respectful to a man "even if he had hair" was like raisins.
When even fair- skinned people today from modern southern Palestine to Jordan have kinky and even woolly hair it becomes obvious that the "even if he had hair on his head like raisins" descriptive addendum of some lank haired person in some non-Arab place like Iran or Syria.
This bedouin of Jordan reflects the appearance of many Jordanian and Hejaz clans. His appearance was probably typical of the most Arabians of Muhammed's time and much later if we are to believe Dhahabi 14th century Syrian.
I have a hard time believing people that looked like this which was probably considered white by Arabs were saying derogatory things about kinky haired people. Tabari, Isfehan, and many other Islamic commentarists were living in Iran where the myth of black and cursed Ham (Chamar), Daasa or Daae and Zanj had been centuries in full bloom.
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
The oldest Christians according to ancient Jewish texts were the Meunim or Ma'in fishermen of the Tihama Asir. They influenced the early kinsmen Azdites, the Ghassan and Lakhmids or Bait Lahm who founded (Bethlehem)in Syria and lived in Hira. These people in Arabia were called Azdites many of whom were Jewish before they became Christian.
quote:
dana The related Baliyy or El Beliun of the Banu Kuda'a (Kuth) moved into Egypt's eastern deserts and Nubia and were the "Jacobite Christian" section of the Beja who otherwise were known as Magians.
They were called Balau or Balawi in Eritrea. The Beja then moved into the Tigrean province and Christianity spead through them to other Amhara related people
Dana where do u get this information from the BAnu Kuda who are related to the bani kindy they moved into the eastern desert of egypt but they did not bring christianity to the Beja u are right about the jacobite syrians but it came from abu Halawi i am of Beja origin and we have different traditions of how we entered middle egypt as well as places like ismaeliya and our connections with nubians as well as eritrea and axum.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
However racism (like in biological race) was never a big deal in these lands and all these scholars wrote positive things about African nations. On top of that there is also prejudice and down right hatred that isn't connected to color and there is also prejudice against fair skinned folk
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Many Muslims say that there is nothing racist about the "raisin head" hadith
Edit: moved the rest to the other thread
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: Many Muslims say that there is nothing racist about the "raisin head" hadith
Edit: moved the rest to the other thread
There is certainly nothing racist about it but it just shows how little the Arabs had to do with writing certain hadiths.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad: The oldest Christians according to ancient Jewish texts were the Meunim or Ma'in fishermen of the Tihama Asir. They influenced the early kinsmen Azdites, the Ghassan and Lakhmids or Bait Lahm who founded (Bethlehem)in Syria and lived in Hira. These people in Arabia were called Azdites many of whom were Jewish before they became Christian.
quote:
dana The related Baliyy or El Beliun of the Banu Kuda'a (Kuth) moved into Egypt's eastern deserts and Nubia and were the "Jacobite Christian" section of the Beja who otherwise were known as Magians.
They were called Balau or Balawi in Eritrea. The Beja then moved into the Tigrean province and Christianity spead through them to other Amhara related people
Dana where do u get this information from the BAnu Kuda who are related to the bani kindy they moved into the eastern desert of egypt but they did not bring christianity to the Beja u are right about the jacobite syrians but it came from abu Halawi i am of Beja origin and we have different traditions of how we entered middle egypt as well as places like ismaeliya and our connections with nubians as well as eritrea and axum.
Actually, the Balau or Bellawi are thought to be of t1he Banu Kuda'a (Himyarites) and are the same people as the Hadareb Beja who came in the 6th century supposedly and were not the Jacobites. My mistake. The Jacob Christians came earlier and were the related to the Blemmyes thought to be a different Beja group. I do not know of any tradition saying they were Syrian unless you are talking about the Farasan Christians of the Banu Taghlib who were the "black Christians" forced from Syria and settling along the African coasts across from the Farasan Islands next to the Axumites.
The information I have on the black Syrians or Farasan Christians comes from the book Axum by Yuri Korbischanov and on the Blemmyes from Richmond Palmer's, 'Bornu Sahara and Sudan.
I never heard of an Abu Halawi. Is he a Copt and which Beja people are you from?.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa.
You are correct in saying that the Kanem-Bornou complex had nothing to do with development of "civilization" in Western or Central Africa, but when you implicate that Kanem-Bornou were not Western Africans, is that an accurate assessment? Where was Bornou centered?
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
The ancient Zaghawa, wherever they came from, would have had a great deal of far reaching influence. I don't know how much of this is true but Ivan Van Sertima wrote about them having influence to the west.
pages 130-132 "Golden age of the Moor" By Ivan Van Sertima
All Beja are related 5 major tribes BeniAmir/Khasa, Bisharin named after Bishar ibn-Marwan ibn-Ishaq ibn-Rabi'a, Amarar, Ababda with many subgroups my mother is of Bishari decent my father is egyptian Kom Ombo.
ARe we talking about the same Zaghawa who are in Chad and Sudan i heard from islamic sources that Islam reached them first before northern sudan. Zaghawa from my understanding do not claim a Yemeni origin because they are not originally arab speakers.
Markellion i think the Zaghawa are the same as the Fur and Masalat tribes of western Sudan they look no different from the Fur. I think the Zaghawa are orgininally from Chad
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
I cant see a arab or yemeni origin for Hedareb/Hadendewa they are the purest speakers of Ta-Bedawiye and holders of most of BEja tradition and poetry.
What sources do we have for the First and oldest tribe in Yemen i was told it was the Mahra of Suqutri but i also want to know when did Yemen and abyssinia become connected
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa.
You are correct in saying that the Kanem-Bornou complex had nothing to do with development of "civilization" in Western or Central Africa, but when you implicate that Kanem-Bornou were not Western Africans, is that an accurate assessment? Where was Bornou centered?
I would say Northern central Africa. But yes parts of the empire stretched into West Africa.
The point however, is that the movement of the Zaghawa into Chad as the basis of the development of the Kanem empire is not a reflection on the development of civilization of West Africa even if later parts of the empire touched on West Africa. The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: If you want to see good examples of Old other Arabian types, check some of the British photo collections from the late 1800s to early 1900s.
I donb't know how I missed so many posts on the first page. I agree with Djehuti, Doug. These are great photos. I have seen other photos u have posted on other egyptsearch forum posts that are very inspiring as well.
Thanks for the compliment. I also have to compliment your skills in providing thorough descriptions of the various ethnic groups and identities involved in these ancient lands.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
There is actually no such thing as "West Africans". Its all a part of the person's perspective. The Zaghawa are known to have far reaching influence and so would have affected and interacted with the people to the far west of them. Even if this kind of influence was exaggerated by "Arab" writers there was still interaction going on
pages 130-132 "Golden age of the Moor" By Ivan Van Sertima
You are correct in saying that the Kanem-Bornou complex had nothing to do with development of "civilization" in Western or Central Africa, but when you implicate that Kanem-Bornou were not Western Africans, is that an accurate assessment? Where was Bornou centered?
I would say Northern central Africa. But yes parts of the empire stretched into West Africa.
Actually, my question was framed with Bornu in mind. Burnu was its own complex that was later merged with the Kanem counterpart; but where was the seat of Burnu rule; was it in western Africa or central Africa?
Also, given that the complex, as you mentioned strung from central Africa to western Africa or vice versa, should it not be the sum total of the complex that identified the complex; that is the rulers and their subjects?
quote:The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
Do you have any lineage information on these rulers, to determine if they do or do not have links to Western Africa?
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Please take into consideration the evidence of long distance trade and spread of ideas and everything instead of seeing things as being "west Africans" and "central Africans"
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Have I said anything that makes you assume that I don't "take into consideration the evidence of long distance trade and spread of ideas and everything". And anyway, how do you take these matters into consideration without the assistance of geographic designators?
Ps: Just so we are on the same page, my question relates to getting a handle of the actual complexity about Kanem-Bornu, not otherwise.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Actually I was referring to Doug M and about the ancient culture of this region. If we can believe M.A. Shaban the Zaghawa were coming in large numbers to enlist in Muslim armies and there is much to believe they had far reaching influence since before Islam
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are correct in saying that the Kanem-Bornou complex had nothing to do with development of "civilization" in Western or Central Africa, but when you implicate that Kanem-Bornou were not Western Africans, is that an accurate assessment? Where was Bornou centered?
I would say Northern central Africa. But yes parts of the empire stretched into West Africa.
Actually, my question was framed with Bornu in mind. Burnu was its own complex that was later merged with the Kanem counterpart; but where was the seat of Burnu rule; was it in western Africa or central Africa?
Also, given that the complex, as you mentioned strung from central Africa to western Africa or vice versa, should it not be the sum total of the complex that identified the complex; that is the rulers and their subjects?
quote:The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
Do you have any lineage information on these rulers, to determine if they do or do not have links to Western Africa?
According to the discussion here I am referring to the Zaghawa.
I have always said that the links between the Nile Valley and West Africa through Chad are quite ancient.
However, in the context I am speaking I am talking of the Zaghawa who they are and where they came from and how valid it is to extrapolate from one single bit of information from one source. If they are the founders of Kanem, then does that make them founders of other west African cultures and civilizations? How does that one snippet support such an observation?
I have always said on this board they influenced West Africa with some of their traditions and cultural traits, which became part of the African Islamic tradition and can be found from Nigeria to Sudan. But this was not intended to be an exhaustive recollection of all the facts about Kanem, Bornu, Sudan, the Nile, the Sahara, Trade routes, marriage, mummification, technology, writing, art, culture, Nigeria, Hausa, NiloSaharan, horsemanship, warfare and all the other things that are related to the subject. If we were to really take on all those subjects and really understand the relationships the pattern of interaction from East to West would be ancient and clear.
However, for this instance only, I am referring to the one little snippet of text that Markellion keeps referring to as the basis of ALL his knowledge of ALL Africa and seems to use it over and over as his sole source of wisdom on the subject.
Yes there are traditions in West Africa of Africans from Nile and Eastern Africa bringing traditions that influenced their own, but again, those traditions should be researched and used in conjunction with other evidence to produce a well rounded discussion on the topic, not simply one note from one book.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
There is no "west Africa" people have influenced each other over long distances
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
The point however, is that the movement of the Zaghawa into Chad as the basis of the development of the Kanem empire is not a reflection on the development of civilization of West Africa even if later parts of the empire touched on West Africa. The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
This statement makes no sense because what makes the difference between "west Africa" and not "west Africa"?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
The point however, is that the movement of the Zaghawa into Chad as the basis of the development of the Kanem empire is not a reflection on the development of civilization of West Africa even if later parts of the empire touched on West Africa. The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
This statement makes no sense because what makes the difference between "west Africa" and not "west Africa"?
LOL!
Lets stop here.
Either remember what we are talking about, namely that one quote from the book you keep referring to as the basis of claiming that Western Sudan in reference to the Zaghawa is a reference to West Africa.
I am not into incoherent rambling.
The difference between West Africa and not West Africa is thousands of miles. Therefore you should be careful when suggesting that Western Sudan means West Africa, especially based on one little quote from one book. That was my only point.
Surely you can find more than one quote or a couple quotes to support your claim is my point. You are literally skipping over thousands of miles geographically, hundreds if not thousands of years or history and many cultural traditions by relying on one single quote.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I've never said Zaghawa home of Kanim was west Africa and I did not show that quote for the purpose of claiming they were "west African". I gave that quote as a response to the idea they came from Yemen
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
How do you explain the long distance contacts after the Islamic era? Does Islam have superpowers that allows people to have long distance contacts that wouldn't otherwise exist?
Anyway these are statements by myself regarding what I was talking about
quote:
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I wasn't actually trying to argue that Zaghawa had the first kingdom or that they were "west Africans" I was trying to show how many accounts differ from Dana's account on Zaghawa. The irony is that these scholars seemed to believe Zaghawa were very ancient. If it said Zaghawa were from the moon it would have shown that not everyone agrees Zaghawa are connected to Yemen
quote:Originally posted by markellion: There are many other accounts (see previous post) that claim Zaghawa had the first kingdom of "western Sudan". Whither that is true I don't know but there are sources that make that claim, therefor we shouldn't be overly hasty to accept that they came from Arabia or wherever.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are correct in saying that the Kanem-Bornou complex had nothing to do with development of "civilization" in Western or Central Africa, but when you implicate that Kanem-Bornou were not Western Africans, is that an accurate assessment? Where was Bornou centered?
I would say Northern central Africa. But yes parts of the empire stretched into West Africa.
Actually, my question was framed with Bornu in mind. Burnu was its own complex that was later merged with the Kanem counterpart; but where was the seat of Burnu rule; was it in western Africa or central Africa?
Also, given that the complex, as you mentioned strung from central Africa to western Africa or vice versa, should it not be the sum total of the complex that identified the complex; that is the rulers and their subjects?
quote:The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
Do you have any lineage information on these rulers, to determine if they do or do not have links to Western Africa? [/qb]
According to the discussion here I am referring to the Zaghawa.
I have always said that the links between the Nile Valley and West Africa through Chad are quite ancient.
However, in the context I am speaking I am talking of the Zaghawa who they are and where they came from and how valid it is to extrapolate from one single bit of information from one source. If they are the founders of Kanem, then does that make them founders of other west African cultures and civilizations? How does that one snippet support such an observation?
I have always said on this board they influenced West Africa with some of their traditions and cultural traits, which became part of the African Islamic tradition and can be found from Nigeria to Sudan. But this was not intended to be an exhaustive recollection of all the facts about Kanem, Bornu, Sudan, the Nile, the Sahara, Trade routes, marriage, mummification, technology, writing, art, culture, Nigeria, Hausa, NiloSaharan, horsemanship, warfare and all the other things that are related to the subject. If we were to really take on all those subjects and really understand the relationships the pattern of interaction from East to West would be ancient and clear.
However, for this instance only, I am referring to the one little snippet of text that Markellion keeps referring to as the basis of ALL his knowledge of ALL Africa and seems to use it over and over as his sole source of wisdom on the subject.
Yes there are traditions in West Africa of Africans from Nile and Eastern Africa bringing traditions that influenced their own, but again, those traditions should be researched and used in conjunction with other evidence to produce a well rounded discussion on the topic, not simply one note from one book.
I am not sure how this answers what I was asking you above.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
You are correct in saying that the Kanem-Bornou complex had nothing to do with development of "civilization" in Western or Central Africa, but when you implicate that Kanem-Bornou were not Western Africans, is that an accurate assessment? Where was Bornou centered?
I would say Northern central Africa. But yes parts of the empire stretched into West Africa.
Actually, my question was framed with Bornu in mind. Burnu was its own complex that was later merged with the Kanem counterpart; but where was the seat of Burnu rule; was it in western Africa or central Africa?
Also, given that the complex, as you mentioned strung from central Africa to western Africa or vice versa, should it not be the sum total of the complex that identified the complex; that is the rulers and their subjects?
quote:The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
Do you have any lineage information on these rulers, to determine if they do or do not have links to Western Africa?
According to the discussion here I am referring to the Zaghawa.
I have always said that the links between the Nile Valley and West Africa through Chad are quite ancient.
However, in the context I am speaking I am talking of the Zaghawa who they are and where they came from and how valid it is to extrapolate from one single bit of information from one source. If they are the founders of Kanem, then does that make them founders of other west African cultures and civilizations? How does that one snippet support such an observation?
I have always said on this board they influenced West Africa with some of their traditions and cultural traits, which became part of the African Islamic tradition and can be found from Nigeria to Sudan. But this was not intended to be an exhaustive recollection of all the facts about Kanem, Bornu, Sudan, the Nile, the Sahara, Trade routes, marriage, mummification, technology, writing, art, culture, Nigeria, Hausa, NiloSaharan, horsemanship, warfare and all the other things that are related to the subject. If we were to really take on all those subjects and really understand the relationships the pattern of interaction from East to West would be ancient and clear.
However, for this instance only, I am referring to the one little snippet of text that Markellion keeps referring to as the basis of ALL his knowledge of ALL Africa and seems to use it over and over as his sole source of wisdom on the subject.
Yes there are traditions in West Africa of Africans from Nile and Eastern Africa bringing traditions that influenced their own, but again, those traditions should be researched and used in conjunction with other evidence to produce a well rounded discussion on the topic, not simply one note from one book.
I am not sure how this answers what I was asking you above. [/QB]
I don't have any specific lineage information about individual Zaghawa rulers in Kanem.
However, whenever I read anything on the subject the issue of origins seems conflicting as to who was where when. That is why I am saying we shouldn't rely on one quote from one source when trying to understand such a complex topic.
For example:
quote: The Kanem Empire originated in the ninth century A.D. to the northeast of Lake Chad. It was formed from a confederation of nomadic peoples who spoke languages of the Teda- Daza (Toubou) group. One theory, based on early Arabic sources, suggests that the dominance of the Zaghawa people bound the confederation together. But local oral traditions omit the Zaghawa and refer instead to a legendary Arab, Sayf ibn Dhi Yazan--believed by some to have been a Yemeni-- who assumed leadership of the Magoumi clan and began the Sayfawa dynastic lineage. Historians agree that the leaders of the new state were ancestors of the Kanembu people. The leaders adopted the title mai, or king, and their subjects regarded them as divine.
One factor that influenced the formation of states in Chad was the penetration of Islam during the tenth century. Arabs migrating from the north and east brought the new religion. Toward the end of the eleventh century, the Sayfawa king, Mai Humai, converted to Islam. (Some historians believe that it was Humai rather than Sayf ibn Dhi Yazan who established the Sayfawa lineage as the ruling dynasty of Kanem.) Islam offered the Sayfawa rulers the advantages of new ideas from Arabia and the Mediterranean world, as well as literacy in administration. But many people resisted the new religion in favor of traditional beliefs and practices. When Humai converted, for example, it is believed that the Zaghawa broke from the empire and moved east. This pattern of conflict and compromise with Islam occurs repeatedly in Chadian history.
Prior to the twelfth century, the nomadic Sayfawa confederation expanded southward into Kanem (the word for "south" in the Teda language). By the thirteenth century, Kanem's rule expanded. At the same time, the Kanembu people became more sedentary and established a capital at Njimi, northeast of Lake Chad. Even though the Kanembu were becoming more sedentary, Kanem's rulers continued to travel frequently throughout the kingdom to remind the herders and farmers of the government's power and to allow them to demonstrate their allegiance by paying tribute.
Kanem's expansion peaked during the long and energetic reign of Mai Dunama Dabbalemi (ca. 1221-59). Dabbalemi initiated diplomatic exchanges with sultans in North Africa and apparently arranged for the establishment of a special hostel in Cairo to facilitate pilgrimages to Mecca. During Dabbalemi's reign, the Fezzan region (in present-day Libya) fell under Kanem's authority, and the empire's influence extended westward to Kano, eastward to Wadai, and southward to the Adamawa grasslands (in present-day Cameroon). Portraying these boundaries on maps can be misleading, however, because the degree of control extended in ever-weakening gradations from the core of the empire around Njimi to remote peripheries, from which allegiance and tribute were usually only symbolic. Moreover, cartographic lines are static and misrepresent the mobility inherent in nomadism and migration, which were common. The loyalty of peoples and their leaders was more important in governance than the physical control of territory.
Another slant from the Cambridge history of Africa:
quote: Zaghawa is the earliest ethnic name from the Sahara and Sudan to be recorded in the Arabic sources. Wahb b. Munabbih, who died in AD 728 or 732, counted the Zaghawa among the races of the Sudan together with the Nuba, Zanj, Habasha, Copts and Berbers. The Zaghawa who now live in Wadai and Darfur, are part of the Teda-Tubu group, black nomads of the eastern Sahara. Indeed, it appears that Wahb b. Munabbih used Zaghawa as a generic name for the whole Teda-Tubu group.
More than a century later, writing between 836 and 847, the geographer al-Khwarizmi mentioned the Zaghawa together with the two oldest states of the Sudan, Ghana and Gao. That Zaghawa was considered also as a kingdom was confirmed by al-Yaqubi in 872. He describes 'the kingdom of the Zaghawa who live in a place called Kanim'. Kanem, which is mentioned here for the first time, consisted of several vassal kingdoms, as also did Ghana and Gao according to the same account of al-Yaqubi. In the tenth century the kingdom was still known to the authhor of Akhbar al-Zaman and to al-Muhallabi as 'the kingdom of the Zaghawa'. Manan, one of the two towns of the Zaghawa mentioned by al-Muhallabi, was described by the thirteenth century geographer Ibn said as the capital of the kings of Kanem before their conversion to Islam. from the time of al-Bakri in the eleventh century, the kingdom became known as Kanem. Before that it is evident from al-Yaqubi, Kanem was simply a geographical term. Indeed it is generally accepted that the name Kanem is derived from the word for 'south' (anem) in the Teda and Kanuri languages.
The dessication of the Sahara caused a southward movement of population into the more humid lands of the Chad basin. Such a north-to-south migration is reflected in the oral traditions of peoples in the region, and is supported by the linguistic evidence. Kanembu, the language spoken north-east of Lake Chad, is derived from the group of Teda-Daza languages, to which the Zaghawa language also belongs......
Note that the Berbers were counted as the Sudan.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Berber might mean Somali. The empire in this region goes long before Islam the later empires were a continuation of the older one. The influence of the Zaghawa was wide spread even if the Arab accounts that Ivan Van Sertima speaks of were exaggerated
quote:Originally posted by markellion: The ancient Zaghawa, wherever they came from, would have had a great deal of far reaching influence. I don't know how much of this is true but Ivan Van Sertima wrote about them having influence to the west.
pages 130-132 "Golden age of the Moor" By Ivan Van Sertima
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Likewise, "first" in this context is likewise relative and depends on context. Since this document you are referring to is an arabic source, most likely it means first ARABIC civilization or first civilization that has some affiliation with Arabic in some way in the Chad basin. It does not mean first civilization in an absolute sense.
The empire was not simply affected by Islam Kanem Bornou was part of the shaping of the Islamic world. By "first kingdom" maybe they were saying that in terms of it being far East listing kingdoms from the eastern most to western most I really don't know for sure. They did not think in terms of first "Muslim" or Arabic" kingdom
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
According to Ibn Sa'id, the authority of the sultan of Kanim extended over Kawar and Fazzan, and the Berbers were slaves of the king of Kanim. He confirmed that during periods of strength Kanim expanded northward into the Sahara, rather than southward.
page 44
From Ibn Sa'id 13th century
This sultan has authority there over kingdoms such as those of the Tajuwa, Kawar, and Fazzan. God has assisted him and he has many descendants and armies. His clothes are brought to him from the capital of Tunish. He has scholars around him...
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I don't have any specific lineage information about individual Zaghawa rulers in Kanem.
Okay, but that is just partly the picture here; like your own wiki sourcing says, the seat of Bornu power as its own complex was in what is now part of Nigeria, which is a western African nation. Aside from the question of the ultimate genealogical heritage of Zaghawa rulers, when the Bornu complex merged with the Kanem counterpart, a new layer of population emerged from genetic exchanges between former Kanem elites and locals. How does these developments square with the idea that Kanem-Bornu were not western Africans? See, where this is going. From what I can tell, it is not a simple matter of Kanem-Bornu being central African or western; it is both. Is that not possible?
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
Berber might mean Somali. The empire in this region goes long before Islam the later empires were a continuation of the older one. The influence of the Zaghawa was wide spread even if the Arab accounts that Ivan Van Sertima speaks of were exaggerated
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
The ancient Zaghawa, wherever they came from, would have had a great deal of far reaching influence. I don't know how much of this is true but Ivan Van Sertima wrote about them having influence to the west.
pages 130-132 "Golden age of the Moor" By Ivan Van Sertima
What are going by, by saying that Somalis might have been called "Berbers"? Just because a place might have been called "Berbery", doesn't mean that the folks were called such as well. The name stuck with the Maghreb on the other hand, because the Arabs alternatively called the region Bilad al-Barbar.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
This is what an Arabic speaker told me but I could be misinformed
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: Berber might mean Somali. The empire in this region goes long before Islam the later empires were a continuation of the older one. The influence of the Zaghawa was wide spread even if the Arab accounts that Ivan Van Sertima speaks of were exaggerated
quote:Originally posted by markellion: The ancient Zaghawa, wherever they came from, would have had a great deal of far reaching influence. I don't know how much of this is true but Ivan Van Sertima wrote about them having influence to the west.
pages 130-132 "Golden age of the Moor" By Ivan Van Sertima
Berber refers to the Maghreb in the Arabian corpus of traditions.Circa 1000 A.D. an account of Kan’an b. Ham is found in Akbar al Zaman:
“He was the eldest of Ham’s sons, and the first to corrupt the religion of Noah, peace be upon him….Among the descendants of Sudan, son of Kan’an, are many nations, among them the Ishban, the Zanj, and many peoples that multiplied in the Maghrib, about 70 of them…..” from the French translation of the Akbar al Zaman : L’Abrege des Merveilles published 1898.
Sudan called here and in other texts "a son of Canaan" and his descendants include the Berbers of the Maghreb. Ishban is the brother or Botr (Bathran) and Beran ibn Berr ancestors of the Berbers in many writings.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: This is what an Arabic speaker told me but I could be misinformed
Yes and also the Periplus of the Eritrean Sea by a Greek author calls the people of what is now called Somalia - "Berbers" and do later African sources.
It may be a reference to the Afar (Danakil) tribes who also occupy the Yemen and who were evidently ancestral to the Ifren or Ifuras Tuareg(Zenata).
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I don't have any specific lineage information about individual Zaghawa rulers in Kanem.
Okay, but that is just partly the picture here; like your own wiki sourcing says, the seat of Bornu power as its own complex was in what is now part of Nigeria, which is a western African nation. Aside from the question of the ultimate genealogical heritage of Zaghawa rulers, when the Bornu complex merged with the Kanem counterpart, a new layer of population emerged from genetic exchanges between former Kanem elites and locals. How does these developments square with the idea that Kanem-Bornu were not western Africans? See, where this is going. From what I can tell, it is not a simple matter of Kanem-Bornu being central African or western; it is both. Is that not possible?
I said the Zaghawa as a specific ethnic group native to Western Sudan and Chad were not west Africans.
Whether or not specific rulers may have had West African ancestry is a different discussion.
I don't disagree that this entire complex did not have West Africans in it, but again the Zaghawa are no more West Africans than the Hausa are East Africans even though both may have been part of the Kanem Bornu complex at one time.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I said the Zaghawa as a specific ethnic group native to Western Sudan and Chad were not west Africans.
I take it then, that this was a typo on your part?
Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa. - Doug M.
As for the Zaghawa, since it has not yet been established here that they don't ultimately have a western African heritage, then saying that they were not western Africans amounts to a superficial claim, which is predicated on the seat of Kanem rule being in what is now part of Chad.
quote: I don't disagree that this entire complex did not have West Africans in it, but again the Zaghawa are no more West Africans than the Hausa are East Africans even though both may have been part of the Kanem Bornu complex at one time.
My point is that one cannot deem Kanem-Bornu to not be "west African"; because the seat of Bornu rule, regardless of where some of its rulers came from, was in western Africa before it merged with the Kanem complex, to form Kanem-Bornu. Therefore, Kanem-Bornu can be a western and central African complex at the same time; it doesn't have to be either/or.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I said the Zaghawa as a specific ethnic group native to Western Sudan and Chad were not west Africans.
I take it then, that this was a typo on your part?
Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa. - Doug M.
As for the Zaghawa, since it has not yet been established here that they don't ultimately have a western African heritage, then saying that they were not western Africans amounts to a superficial claim, which is predicated on the seat of Kanem rule being in what is now part of Chad.
quote: I don't disagree that this entire complex did not have West Africans in it, but again the Zaghawa are no more West Africans than the Hausa are East Africans even though both may have been part of the Kanem Bornu complex at one time.
My point is that one cannot deem Kanem-Bornu to not be "west African"; because the seat of Bornu rule, regardless of where some of its rulers came from, was in western Africa before it merged with the Kanem complex, to form Kanem-Bornu. Therefore, Kanem-Bornu can be a western and central African complex at the same time; it doesn't have to be either/or.
Again, I am talking about the Zaghawa (or at least I was) and that is solely the purpose of what my response was to Markellion.
I really was not under any intention of getting into all the facts and details of the expanse of the KanemBornu empire and each and every detail about it.
Suffice to say, the Zaghawa are not considered to be West African by any of the sources I have seen and hence the reason why I said that the Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
I am not going to go digging up more information on it. If you think you have some specific data that can clarify the issue as to exactly how much "west African" blood was in the lineages of the Zaghawa that would be great.
I certainly don't dismiss the ties to west Africa but unless actual evidence is presented otherwise I don't think that the statement "The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans" is an inaccurate general statement. It may not be accurate for specific rulers with West African ancestry but again I am talking of rulers with primarily Zaghawa ancestry to begin with.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I said the Zaghawa as a specific ethnic group native to Western Sudan and Chad were not west Africans.
I take it then, that this was a typo on your part?
Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa. - Doug M.
As for the Zaghawa, since it has not yet been established here that they don't ultimately have a western African heritage, then saying that they were not western Africans amounts to a superficial claim, which is predicated on the seat of Kanem rule being in what is now part of Chad.
quote: I don't disagree that this entire complex did not have West Africans in it, but again the Zaghawa are no more West Africans than the Hausa are East Africans even though both may have been part of the Kanem Bornu complex at one time.
My point is that one cannot deem Kanem-Bornu to not be "west African"; because the seat of Bornu rule, regardless of where some of its rulers came from, was in western Africa before it merged with the Kanem complex, to form Kanem-Bornu. Therefore, Kanem-Bornu can be a western and central African complex at the same time; it doesn't have to be either/or.
Again, I am talking about the Zaghawa (or at least I was) and that is solely the purpose of what my response was to Markellion.
Again, I'm talking about your *original* comment, as recited above; is it therefore a typo or not?
If you need reminding, your original statement says *both* "Kanem-Bornu and the Zaghawa were not west Africans".
quote: I really was not under any intention of getting into all the facts and details of the expanse of the KanemBornu empire and each and every detail about it.
Yet your intended goal was to presumably set the record straight for Markellion?
quote: Suffice to say, the Zaghawa are not considered to be West African by any of the sources I have seen and hence the reason why I said that the Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
That's perhaps because those sources never actually consider the ultimate genealogical origins of the Zaghawa, but rather, as I noted above, they were simply taking into account that the seat of Kanem power was then located at what is now part of Chad, in contrast to that of Bornu. At any rate, this source suggests something more complex about the rulers of Kanem complex:
quote: I am not going to go digging up more information on it. If you think you have some specific data that can clarify the issue as to exactly how much "west African" blood was in the lineages of the Zaghawa that would be great.
Well, it is up to you if you think credibility in what you say is a non-factor.
quote: I certainly don't dismiss the ties to west Africa but unless actual evidence is presented otherwise I don't think that the statement "The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans" is an inaccurate general statement. It may not be accurate for specific rulers with West African ancestry but again I am talking of rulers with primarily Zaghawa ancestry to begin with.
You are getting off the rail here. To reiterate, yet again: The issue was with your claim that *both* "Kanem-Bornu and the Zaghawa were not west Africans".
On a side note: As for Zaghawa, to repeat that again, the idea that "they were not west Africans", is mainly predicated on the seat of power of Kanem and their current territories of resident, not genealogical specificities. They were reportedly derived from Tebu-speaking nomads -- a group whose territory stretches from eastern Africa in Sudan to western Africa in Niger. Kanem as an actual regional power comes about under the Sayfawa [not the Zaghawa], whose actual origin remains shrouded in mystery; some sources suggest a westward origin under Humai ibn Salamna and others speak of Sayf ibn Dhi Yazan, presumably from Yemen.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I said the Zaghawa as a specific ethnic group native to Western Sudan and Chad were not west Africans.
I take it then, that this was a typo on your part?
Obviously Kanem Bornou and the Zaghawa were not West Africans and had nothing to do with the development of civilization in West or Central Africa. - Doug M.
As for the Zaghawa, since it has not yet been established here that they don't ultimately have a western African heritage, then saying that they were not western Africans amounts to a superficial claim, which is predicated on the seat of Kanem rule being in what is now part of Chad.
quote: I don't disagree that this entire complex did not have West Africans in it, but again the Zaghawa are no more West Africans than the Hausa are East Africans even though both may have been part of the Kanem Bornu complex at one time.
My point is that one cannot deem Kanem-Bornu to not be "west African"; because the seat of Bornu rule, regardless of where some of its rulers came from, was in western Africa before it merged with the Kanem complex, to form Kanem-Bornu. Therefore, Kanem-Bornu can be a western and central African complex at the same time; it doesn't have to be either/or.
Again, I am talking about the Zaghawa (or at least I was) and that is solely the purpose of what my response was to Markellion.
Again, I'm talking about your *original* comment, as recited above; is it therefore a typo or not?
If you need reminding, your original statement says *both* "Kanem-Bornu and the Zaghawa were not west Africans".
quote: I really was not under any intention of getting into all the facts and details of the expanse of the KanemBornu empire and each and every detail about it.
Yet your intended goal was to presumably set the record straight for Markellion?
quote: Suffice to say, the Zaghawa are not considered to be West African by any of the sources I have seen and hence the reason why I said that the Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans.
That's perhaps because those sources never actually consider the ultimate genealogical origins of the Zaghawa, but rather, as I noted above, they were simply taking into account that the seat of Kanem power was then located at what is now part of Chad, in contrast to that of Bornu. At any rate, this source suggests something more complex about the rulers of Kanem complex:
quote: I am not going to go digging up more information on it. If you think you have some specific data that can clarify the issue as to exactly how much "west African" blood was in the lineages of the Zaghawa that would be great.
Well, it is up to you if you think credibility in what you say is a non-factor.
quote: I certainly don't dismiss the ties to west Africa but unless actual evidence is presented otherwise I don't think that the statement "The Zaghawa rulers of Kanem were not West Africans" is an inaccurate general statement. It may not be accurate for specific rulers with West African ancestry but again I am talking of rulers with primarily Zaghawa ancestry to begin with.
You are getting off the rail here. To reiterate, yet again: The issue was with your claim that *both* "Kanem-Bornu and the Zaghawa were not west Africans".
On a side note: As for Zaghawa, to repeat that again, the idea that "they were not west Africans", is mainly predicated on the seat of power of Kanem and their current territories of resident, not genealogical specificities. They were reportedly derived from Tebu-speaking nomads -- a group whose territory stretches from eastern Africa in Sudan to western Africa in Niger. Kanem as an actual regional power comes about under the Sayfawa [not the Zaghawa], whose actual origin remains shrouded in mystery; some sources suggest a westward origin under Humai ibn Salamna and others speak of Sayf ibn Dhi Yazan, presumably from Yemen.
I understand the need for correct understanding.
But I am not doing any footwork to clarify the issue. I have nothing more to say other than yes, the Kanem Bornu were obviously partly in West Africa.
I look at Kanem as geographically Central African, but obviously touching on Eastern and Western African regions as well.
That is partly what I was getting at by the original comment. And I agree that it is not totally accurate. However, to counter that someone would have to prove that most people in Kanem Bornu had West African ancestry.
I feel totally credible with saying that Kanem Bornu was more Central African, Nilotic and Saharan than West African, geographically and culturally. And there are sources to support that. My point is that those who feel strongly OTHERWISE should provide the information to back it up. I don't feel obligated to do that research even though I feel it would be worthwhile for anyone who wants to know.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I understand the need for correct understanding.
Indeed, because it seems to me, the issue at hand is that you are not understanding what I'm telling you.
quote: But I am not doing any footwork to clarify the issue.
This is puzzling, because again, your post directed at Markellion, was supposedly to set him straight with facts. If you are now saying that you don't need to clarify something that you wrote, which is found to be questionable, then where do you come off correcting anyone else?
quote: I have nothing more to say other than yes, the Kanem Bornu were obviously partly in West Africa.
This would put to question your position that Kanem-Bornu were NOT west Africans, now wouldn't it? Simply put. You are ignoring the fact that Kanem-Bornu territory was partly western African, and an important part, might I add.
quote: I look at Kanem as geographically Central African, but obviously touching on Eastern and Western African regions as well.
Here is what I think you are critically not understanding:
a)Kanem complex is NOT one and same as the Kanem-Bornu complex.
b)Bornu was a complex in its own right *before* the capital at Kanem was phased out, and that complex was brought under and merged with that of Bornu.
C) the seat of Kanem complex power was in central Africa (Chad).
d) however, the seat of Bornu complex power was in western Africa (Nigeria).
e) Kanem-Bornu is the fusion of the Kanem and Bornu complexes.
f) Kanem-Bornu's power was seated in western Africa (Nigeria) as opposed to central Africa (Chad).
Does any of the above now clarify things for you? Keep in mind, I'm using your own source to make the above assessments: wiki...along with other sources.
quote:That is partly what I was getting at by the original comment. And I agree that it is not totally accurate. However, to counter that someone would have to prove that most people in Kanem Bornu had West African ancestry.
This is of course a red herring, since no claim was made about "most" people in Kanem-Bornu having west African ancestry.
Still, being that the seat of Kanem-Bornu power was in western Africa, do you actually have data that quantifies what ancestry is what in the Kanem-Bornu complex?
Lest you forget again, the issue was and remains that your claim that "Kanem-Bornu were not west Africans" is inaccurate. I've already laid down the details above, as to why.
quote: I feel totally credible with saying that Kanem Bornu was more Central African, Nilotic and Saharan than West African, geographically and culturally.
Credible by what? I fail to see your credibility, in light of what was just explained.
quote: And there are sources to support that.
Let's find out...yet again.
- Was the seat of Bornu complex power in western Africa or central Africa?
- Was the seat of Kanem complex power in western Africa or central Africa?
- Was the seat of power of Kanem-Bornu complex in western Africa or central Africa?
If any of your answers here is not central Africa, then your claim is NOT supported materially.
quote: My point is that those who feel strongly OTHERWISE should provide the information to back it up.
Done. Look up.
quote: I don't feel obligated to do that research even though I feel it would be worthwhile for anyone who wants to know.
Yet you feel obliged to correct someone else, when you don't see the need to be acquainted with the truth in its entirety?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I understand the need for correct understanding.
Indeed, because it seems to me, the issue at hand is that you are not understanding what I'm telling you.
quote: But I am not doing any footwork to clarify the issue.
This is puzzling, because again, your post directed at Markellion, was supposedly to set him straight with facts. If you are now saying that you don't need to clarify something that you wrote, which is found to be questionable, then where do you come off correcting anyone else?
quote: I have nothing more to say other than yes, the Kanem Bornu were obviously partly in West Africa.
This would put to question your position that Kanem-Bornu were NOT west Africans, now wouldn't it? Simply put. You are ignoring the fact that Kanem-Bornu territory was partly western African, and an important part, might I add.
quote: I look at Kanem as geographically Central African, but obviously touching on Eastern and Western African regions as well.
Here is what I think you are critically not understanding:
a)Kanem complex is NOT one and same as the Kanem-Bornu complex.
b)Bornu was a complex in its own right *before* the capital at Kanem was phased out, and that complex was brought under and merged with that of Bornu.
C) the seat of Kanem complex power was in central Africa (Chad).
d) however, the seat of Bornu complex power was in western Africa (Nigeria).
e) Kanem-Bornu is the fusion of the Kanem and Bornu complexes.
f) Kanem-Bornu's power was seated in western Africa (Nigeria) as opposed to central Africa (Chad).
Does any of the above now clarify things for you? Keep in mind, I'm using your own source to make the above assessments: wiki...along with other sources.
quote:That is partly what I was getting at by the original comment. And I agree that it is not totally accurate. However, to counter that someone would have to prove that most people in Kanem Bornu had West African ancestry.
This is of course a red herring, since no claim was made about "most" people in Kanem-Bornu having west African ancestry.
Still, being that the seat of Kanem-Bornu power was in western Africa, do you actually have data that quantifies what ancestry is what in the Kanem-Bornu complex?
Lest you forget again, the issue was and remains that your claim that "Kanem-Bornu were not west Africans" is inaccurate. I've already laid down the details above, as to why.
quote: I feel totally credible with saying that Kanem Bornu was more Central African, Nilotic and Saharan than West African, geographically and culturally.
Credible by what? I fail to see your credibility, in light of what was just explained.
quote: And there are sources to support that.
Let's find out...yet again.
- Was the seat of Bornu complex power in western Africa or central Africa?
- Was the seat of Kanem complex power in western Africa or central Africa?
- Was the seat of power of Kanem-Bornu complex in western Africa or central Africa?
If any of your answers here is not central Africa, then your claim is NOT supported materially.
quote: My point is that those who feel strongly OTHERWISE should provide the information to back it up.
Done. Look up.
quote: I don't feel obligated to do that research even though I feel it would be worthwhile for anyone who wants to know.
Yet you feel obliged to correct someone else, when you don't see the need to be acquainted with the truth in its entirety?
Just to keep from going in circles.
The point I was making is this:
The Zaghawa started the Kanem empire in Chad. Those founders and rulers and the empire they ruled in were not West Africans and not instrumental in developing THE FIRST civilizations in West Africa. They would have influence but they did not provide the basis of the development of civilization in West Africa. Those people from the Zaghawa and Kanem were not West Africans.
Again I am referring to the original documents where markellion was referring to Western Sudan and the time period in which those documents were written. In that context, the Western Sudan did not mean West Africans and the Kanim empire and Zaghawa were not West Africans.
Now of course there was a later empire that eventually did stretch to West Africa but really I should have been more clear as to what I was referring to.
So here is the post I was referring to show that was the intent and the context I was speaking. Like I said I was not intending to go over every detail of the entire span of history of the Kanem and Kanem Bornu Empire which is over 1000 years. I was mainly referring to the Zaghawa rulers referenced in the 9th century work of Al Yaqubi.
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
However Zaghawa according to many accounts had the first kingdom in "western Sudan".
Saying something again and again obviouslyl doen't make it so. I can do that, too.
What are you disagreeing with all I said was that many accounts of Zaghawa say that they had the first kingdom of "Western Sudan". Anyway this is on topic because you say they passed through East Africa. Yes people did immigrate to these places from Arabia ect. I'm talking specifically about the Zaghawa. For anyone reading this do not think that I am saying there were no migrations to these places or that I have any prejudices from people from Arabia or wherever I am talking about specific cases like with Odudawa and Zaghawa. Odudawa is likely to have been from the Benin empire
Again I never said these migrations never occurred
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I think it is u that should not be hasty as obviously Garamantians, Benin, etc. and other societies were in "Western Sudan" centuries before the Zaghawa or "Beriberi".
This is very annoying because what I was saying was Odudawa was likely to have come from the Benin empire. The ancientness of Benin only supports this point more
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
page 1 Al-Ya'qubi (9th century) wrote that Zaghawa are "Sudan" and descendants of Ham who traveled westward. Page 2 Zaghawa (according to Ya'qubi) the first to have a kingdom in western Sudan [/QB]
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
And no one actually said that the Zaghawa were "West Africans" nor is there any reason to think I was trying to say Zaghawa were "West Africans" when looking at the context.
quote: [QUOTE]Originally posted by markellion: I wasn't actually trying to argue that Zaghawa had the first kingdom or that they were "west Africans" I was trying to show how many accounts differ from Dana's account on Zaghawa. The irony is that these scholars seemed to believe Zaghawa were very ancient. If it said Zaghawa were from the moon it would have shown that not everyone agrees Zaghawa are connected to Yemen
[QUOTE]Originally posted by markellion: [qb] There are many other accounts (see previous post) that claim Zaghawa had the first kingdom of "western Sudan". Whither that is true I don't know but there are sources that make that claim, therefor we shouldn't be overly hasty to accept that they came from Arabia or wherever.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I made a thread so we can explore this subject: "Zaghawa and Kanem-Bornu"
The Zaghawa started the Kanem empire in Chad. Those founders and rulers and the empire they ruled in were not West Africans and not instrumental in developing THE FIRST civilizations in West Africa. They would have influence but they did not provide the basis of the development of civilization in West Africa. Those people from the Zaghawa and Kanem were not West Africans.
This is irrelevant to what I was pointing out about your post, which speaks of Kanem-Bornu. We've gone through the issue of Zaghawa multiple times now; so, you are the one going on in circle here, and you do this, by not answering questions, but just reciting them as spam-fillers, to make it artificially seem you are engaging my points when you obviously aren't.
quote: Again I am referring to the original documents where markellion was referring to Western Sudan and the time period in which those documents were written. In that context, the Western Sudan did not mean West Africans and the Kanim empire and Zaghawa were not West Africans.
Let me put it yet another way, amongst the multiple ways I already have, leaving you still puzzled with the questions:
Do you make a distinction between Kanem empire and Kanem-Bornu empire?
I have to be somewhere, but I'll address the remainder of your post later.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I
quote:Originally posted by markellion:
However Zaghawa according to many accounts had the first kingdom in "western Sudan".
Saying something again and again obviouslyl doen't make it so. I can do that, too.
Doug you answered "What are you disagreeing with all I said was that many accounts of Zaghawa say that they had the first kingdom of "Western Sudan"... Odudawa and Zaghawa. Odudawa is likely to have been from the Benin empire."
Unfortunately - you might have addressed the wrong respondent here.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: I think it is u that should not be hasty as obviously Garamantians, Benin, etc. and other societies were in "Western Sudan" centuries before the Zaghawa or "Beriberi".
Doug - you said "This is very annoying because what I was saying was Odudawa was likely to have come from the Benin empire. The ancientness of Benin only supports this point more
"Medieval West Africa: Views From Arab Scholars and Merchants"
[page 1 Al-Ya'qubi (9th century) wrote that Zaghawa are "Sudan" and descendants of Ham who traveled westward. Page 2 Zaghawa (according to Ya'qubi) the first to have a kingdom in western Sudan [/qb]
[/QB]
Again are you talking to me or Markellion. If it is me who you are addressing I have to say you are putting my quotes in with reference to statements Markellion made to me over and over again and aabout something said about me being "hasty" in my comments. Sorry - but you have confused these statements probably because of Markellion's answer which had your sentence on Odudawa in it. I'd be annoyed too if my comments were directed at something you said - in these cases, however, the addressed person was Markellion who had addressed me.
I agree also with you, by the way, with regard to what you have said about Ya'abubi and Zaghawa. I wrote about this and the Zaghawa two decades ago. Of course the Arab "Ham" for the most part, like Sudan and Canaan refers to a Ham in Arabia and not in Africa. It is a common place name there even today.
It is also the Oyo of Benin particular who claim Arabian origins and from whom were apparently derived the Odudawa legend originally.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: I made a thread so we can explore this subject: "Zaghawa and Kanem-Bornu"
Good idea, Markellion.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Now of course there was a later empire that eventually did stretch to West Africa but really I should have been more clear as to what I was referring to.
This is why I asked you if your claim that "Kanem-Bornuand he Zaghawa were not west Africans" was a typo or not; all you could have said then and there, is that it was, if it indeed was.
And to point out again; Kanem as a power in the Sahara-Sahel came about only after power was seized by the Sayfawa, not the Zaghawa. This was before the creation of the merged complex of Kanem-Bornu. This is based on the same source you cited to me: wikipedia.
quote: So here is the post I was referring to show that was the intent and the context I was speaking. Like I said I was not intending to go over every detail of the entire span of history of the Kanem and Kanem Bornu Empire which is over 1000 years. I was mainly referring to the Zaghawa rulers referenced in the 9th century work of Al Yaqubi.
I've already noted that I don't disagree with your point about the Kanem complex or Zaghawa being responsible for the development of "civilization' in western Africa or central Africa; so I get your point on that. I was however curious about your claim that Kanem-Bornu [not Kanem complex], on the other hand, were not western Africans. Curious, because according to your source, wiki, and the other source I cited, the seat of Kanem-Bornu complex was in western Africa [northeast Nigeria] rather than in central Africa [Chad]. So, from what I'm reading in different sources, it would be more accurate to see Kanem-Bornu as a western-central-African complex. It is no an either/or situation here. It stretched from western Africa to central Africa, but the seat of power was in what is now part of Nigeria.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Zaghawa were already a great power before Islam and before they were superseded. It might be a good idea to start fresh on the other thread in exploring this history
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Now of course there was a later empire that eventually did stretch to West Africa but really I should have been more clear as to what I was referring to.
This is why I asked you if your claim that "Kanem-Bornuand he Zaghawa were not west Africans" was a typo or not; all you could have said then and there, is that it was, if it indeed was.
And to point out again; Kanem as a power in the Sahara-Sahel came about only after power was seized by the Sayfawa, not the Zaghawa. This was before the creation of the merged complex of Kanem-Bornu. This is based on the same source you cited to me: wikipedia.
quote: So here is the post I was referring to show that was the intent and the context I was speaking. Like I said I was not intending to go over every detail of the entire span of history of the Kanem and Kanem Bornu Empire which is over 1000 years. I was mainly referring to the Zaghawa rulers referenced in the 9th century work of Al Yaqubi.
I've already noted that I don't disagree with your point about the Kanem complex or Zaghawa being responsible for the development of "civilization' in western Africa or central Africa; so I get your point on that. I was however curious about your claim that Kanem-Bornu [not Kanem complex], on the other hand, were not western Africans. Curious, because according to your source, wiki, and the other source I cited, the seat of Kanem-Bornu complex was in western Africa [northeast Nigeria] rather than in central Africa [Chad]. So, from what I'm reading in different sources, it would be more accurate to see Kanem-Bornu as a western-central-African complex. It is no an either/or situation here. It stretched from western Africa to central Africa, but the seat of power was in what is now part of Nigeria.
I got you. I wasn't talking about the later West African Bornu Empire. I was solely talking about the 9th century writing of Al Yaqub who spoke of the Zaghawa in Kanem and Western Sudan.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Seriously who the hell cares about that "western Sudan" thing? Lets examine the history see the other thread
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
^I do, and here is why: It prevents the sort of confusion seen in this thread. Kanem under the Zaghawa is a different entity from Kanem under the Sayfawa. It is Kanem under the Sayfawa, NOT the Zaghawa, does a polity in that territory become a regional power. These are the same group, i.e. the Sayfawa but a faction of them, who start another kingdom in Bornu (Nigeria -- hence, western Africa]. For a time, there was parallel Sayfawa-affiliated capitals in Bornu and Kanem, but then, Bornu became a stronger polity, eventually incorporating Kanem; henceforth, we get Kanem-Bornu, with power being concentrated in Bornu [Nigeria -- hence, western Africa]. Without these geographical and temporal contexts, one is bound to confuse what Kanem-Bornu is. Merely copying & pasting material does not serve as proof of someone's understanding of the history involve, and I've already asked you to explain how one can talk about these complexes, without understanding their geographical extent, and where the power was centered. You were mute on the question.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Will this is why I was asking questions about it
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: ^I do, and here is why: It prevents the sort of confusion seen in this thread. Kanem under the Zaghawa is a different entity from Kanem under the Sayfawa. It is Kanem under the Sayfawa, NOT the Zaghawa, does a polity in that territory become a regional power.
No one is disagreeing on anything here Zaghawa had an empire in a territory called Kanim and later an empire became called Kanim
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
From what I've read the Zaghawa were very powerful before Islam but I don't know much about them.
It might be a good idea to start over on a new thread
And come on man yes I'm concerned about the geographical extent the thing about "Western Sudan" is that the term is not of any use to us
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
It is of no use to you, and I now see why the point of my post above flew right over your head.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
Yes the geographical extent and context is important
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by markellion: From what I've read the Zaghawa were very powerful before Islam but I don't know much about them.
It might be a good idea to start over on a new thread
Markellion - if you do not know much about the Zaghawa there was not much point to the arguments you have been making with others, nor to your questioning what African texts have said about their own history.
Posted by markellion (Member # 14131) on :
I do know something about them I don't pretend to know the extent of their empire. I'm not questioning them because I have not seen their text about their own origins most everything I've read contradicts your idea of Yemeni origins
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Hammer: Djehuti, Interesting that nobody teaches the crap you and dana preach and it's the public library must be hiding it all from us.
Ok there are in fact many accounts of Arabs marrying into royal families and there were migrations to the “western Sudan” probably since very early times but did you post a specific quote about Zaghawa because I think I might have missed it. I thought Zaghawa were supposed to be amongst the oldest people to have kingdoms. This is what was bothering me because I didn’t see specific information on it although maybe they did come from Arabia. I was frustrated because I felt like you weren't giving me any information
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: It is wrong however to say that populations like the Mande as a whole came from Arabia. On the other hand it is obvious their original ruling classes (Maghira, Zaghwe, Aswanek or Soninke, etc) were peoples of Arabian or Yemenite descent who have mixed with indigenous Africans.
Some Fulani also mixed with the Hudin or (Zaghwe or Zaghawa groups) who settled in Abyssinia in pre-Islamic times from southern Arabia.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: The Mande and Soninke or Aswanek are the result of mixing with people who came from the north ancient Yemenites because people of Zaghawa and Tuareg origin settled amongst them.
The result of such convergent investigations by scholars working in different fields was that Jacqueline Pirenne, basing herself on the areas material culture, as well as on linguistic and paleographic data, stood Conti Rossinis thesis on its head. She argued that migration was not from Yemen to Ethiopia, but rather in the opposite direction: from Ethiopia to Yemen.
Markellion, it would have been better to respond to ur post on the other posting that deals with the other subject of Tariq's book. Ur responses have little to do with my article on ancient "Ethiopia" - one of the former names of "Arabia".
I guess it would have sounded better if I had said the "ruling classes" were composed of indigenous Africans who had mixed with ancient Arabians. This response as u might remember was a response to why some members and Tarik's book pointed out certain Africans proclaimed an ancient Arabian descent.
Before I answer ur questions I will have to tell u that Zaghawa (likely the same people as the Zaghwe dynasty or Agaw of Ethiopia) were called "Beriberi" due to East African affiliation. They settled the Nilo-Saharan region of the Kamnuri or Bornu ( who are also today called "Beriberi"), and were affiliated with the Jukon, Kwona, Kwararafa groups among the Hausa, Yoruba and other West Africans.
The presence of the Beli-Zaghawa or Erigat (Beja) may also have something to do with the apparently Sabaean tradition of Yarub or Yarab and Hadad (Odudawa) etc. amongst early west African peoples.
It is a fact that the Baliyya or Kudh'a (Kuth) and Hud and other tribes of Himyar(Sabaeans) passed over into Africa and prehistoric times and settled along the Nile at Meroe Blue Nile (the Astaborus) although they could not have differed much from people that were already in the region either biologically or culturally. One early inscription dated several centuries B.C. in Abyssinia mentioned the Adthat (Adah), Beshmat (Beshemoth) and Waran "of the tribe of Ark (Arghu)".
As I have already mentioned previously on several sites whole tribes of Cushites still occupy modern Arabia including peoples named Afar or Afari, Makhir, Hubir, Wubar, Yubir, Haram, Mahra or Mahara and Kara to name just a few. This has been the case for at least 3000 years if not longer.
At some point in time, and according to tradition several points in time, these "Ethiopians" moved from the Tihama (also known as Kush), Yemen and parts of the Asir region fled into Africa as well as India northward to Syria. This occured at various times previous to 1,000 B.C. Such movements as I mentioned above have been pretty much documented through archeology. The problem previously was that European scholars assumed they were different from the population they settled among. However, the region extending to the Indian Ocean had been occupied by Africans and involved trading amongst themselves for thousands of years or since the neolithic as also now acknowledged by archeologists.
Some of these people coming back into Africa were Jewish or Yehudi and gave were ancestral to tribes like the Hudin, Falasha and Sambara who moved southward and westward over centuries giving birth to such peoples Lemba, and other Jewish groups amongst West Africans where they were also "mixed" with indigenous African populations.
Other groups were "Hebraic" but not necessarily Jewish. This is the cause of Josephus' reference to the descendants of Keturah becoming the occupants of the trogodyte regions of Africa.
"From Antiquites of the Jews - Chapter 15
Entitled - "HOW THE NATION OF THE TROGLODYTES WERE DERIVED FROM ABRAHAM BY KETURAH.
ABRAHAM after this married Keturah, by whom six sons were born to him, men of courage, and of sagacious minds: Zambran, and Jazar, and Madan, and Madian, and Josabak, and Sous. Now the sons of Sous were Sabathan and Dadan. The sons of Dadan were Latusim, and Assur, and Luom. The sons of Madiau were Ephas, and Ophren, and Anoch, and Ebidas, and Eldas. Now, for all these sons and grandsons, Abraham contrived to settle them in colonies; and they took possession of Troglodytis, and the country of Arabia the Happy, as far as it reaches to the Red Sea. It is related of this Ophren, that he made war against Libya, and took it, and that his grandchildren, when they inhabited it, called it (from his name) Africa. And indeed Alexander Polyhistor gives his attestation to what I here say; who speaks thus: "Cleodemus the prophet, who was also called Malchus, who wrote a History of the Jews, in agreement with the History of Moses, their legislator, relates, that there were many sons born to Abraham by Keturah: nay, he names three of them, Apher, and Surim, and Japhran. That from Surim was the land of Assyria denominated; and that from the other two (Apher and Japbran) the country of Africa took its name, because these men were auxiliaries to Hercules, when he fought against Libya and Antaeus; and that Hercules married Aphra's daughter, and of her he begat a son, Diodorus; and that Sophon was his son, from whom that barbarous people called Sophacians were denominated."
For this reason I do not believe ur theory that the myths related to Arabian origins are mostly influenced by recent European or even Islamic Arabian conquests.
I also do not believe groups that claim ancestry in Arabia - as Hebrews from the land of Canaan (originally ancient Asir/Yemen region) - such as the Watutsi, Maghira and Iforas (Tuareg) and other groups were influenced by European colonizlists in claiming ancient "Hebraic" (Arabian) heritage.
Neither do I believe that the Jewish groups in Africa were just making things up. I believe the Hebraic people like the peoople of Qahtan were one and remnants of the African-affiliated culture that arose over 5000 years ago in Arabia. In later times of course the name Punt, Kush Iram seems to refer to kingdoms and or peoples on both sides of the Red Sea. And Ethiopian peoples of Meroe (Sabeans)and the Blue Nile are referred to as Arabians by people like Strabo and other early historians.
It is not impossible that such names of the Madhij or Medjayu (Madiau of Josephus or Madian), Sasu or Shasu (Sous), Afar (Afren son of Madiau or Midian), Anakha Danakil (Anoch or Henoch), Mahra, Begawi or Beja (Begawi - Ezra 8), Baliy (Bela - Genesis 36:32), etc. have been in both areas for at least 3000 years. Nevertheless these names are said to stem from ancient "Sabean" or "Adite" kings. They are also names of peoples or families mentioned in the Hebrew Bible (as shown above). Whether these early chiefs or kings ruled on the Arabian or African side of the Erithraean Sea or both is perhaps the only pertinent question.
Jews of southern Arabia (probably a bit lighter in color than their "Canaanite" ancestors)
Nice information here.
Thanks.
Posted by 9th Element (Member # 17629) on :
Old Testament Art at the Time of the Assyrian Conquest of Israel
By Bonnie Oswald, BFA, MA
Israel, living in wickedness and idolatry, was warned by prophets Elijah, Elisha, and Hosea, to repent or face conquest. Prophets and Kings from Judah offered help, and invited them to return to the temple in Jerusalem. These offers they scorned, becoming ripe for destruction.
The Assyrians viciously brought that destruction.
Reconstruction of Nineveh
As we read in the Old Testament of the Assyrians conquering Israel and much of Judah, it is easy to visualize these people as they were pictured at the time in the palaces of the Assyrians. Nineveh is a rich trove of art showing the Assyrian kings and captives majestically portrayed in magnificent bas reliefs. Assyrian art is instantly recognizable because of the pictures of raw strength. Everyone is shown heavily muscled, even the animals.
King Assurbanipal decked out for the hunts. British Museum.
Assyrian God from Nineveh wall relief. Note the muscular legs in this figure, typical of Assyrian Art. Boston Museum of Fine Arts.
Captives were treated particularly harshly. The Geneva Convention was not in the thought process of the Assyrians, who believed in spreading fear among the surrounding enemies. By about 900 BC, Assyria was becoming a fierce war machine, dominating the Near East for 300 years until they were conquered by the Babylonians. Centuries of warfare — as the predominant aspect of their culture — hardened them into a brutal people.
In the temples and palaces, rich with militaristic art, there are no happy scenes of banquets, dancing, feasting, or happy family scenes. All Assyrian art is centered on power.
Tilgath Pileser (also known in the Old Testament as Pul) reigned from 745-727 BC. He warred against Syria and advanced along the Mediterranean, subjugating Phoenicia and Gaza. He conquered Israel in 721 BC, removing the Israelites, and advanced on Judah. Palace art shows captives and vassals paying tribute to the kings.
Tilgath Pileser (Pul), shown in court in his palace, from an artist's reconstruction from a bas relief. 8th C. BC, Louvre
Kings’ sport was shooting lions while riding in chariots. Dying lions and lion hunts figure prominently in palace art. While people were depicted with little emotion, animals were shown with great sensitivity, as we see in this excellent relief of a dying lioness.
Dying Lioness, limestone, 650 BC, British Museum
Someday, when we get the scriptures from the Ten Tribes, it will be interesting to hear the stories associated with the hardships they suffered under the Assyrians.
Israelite prisoners being marched out of Israel by Assyrian soldiers. Note dead Israelites at left. From Bas Relief at Nineveh.
After the defeat of Israel, the Assyrians advanced on Judah, moving south, and conquering as they went. Watch fires were set that could be seen from one city to another, so the next city in line could see what was the state of the battle.
One of the most poignant archaeological finds related to this period is an ostracon from Lachish. Ostracon were broken pieces of fired clay or pottery. Relatively indestructible, they were used as message pads.
The Lachish Ostracon #4, found in the ruins of Lachish, ends a long message with the sad words, "and let my Lord know that we are watching for the signal fires of Lachish... for we cannot see Azekiah." Azekiah had been defeated, Lachish was next, and the giant Assyrian siege ramp is still visible. The message was never sent.
Ostracon #4 from Lachish.
After defeating Lachish, the Assyrians moved on Jerusalem in 701 BC, and laid siege to the city. They were smitten by a plague (probably bubonic) and woke up all "dead corpses." (2 Kings 18, 19.) The king, Sennacherib, returned to Assyrian, abandoning Jerusalem, where he was assassinated by two of his sons while worshiping in the Assyrian temple.
Assyrians transplanted conquered peoples to other areas in their large kingdom, rendering them relatively helpless and disoriented. Their leadership was destroyed, and they were in unfamiliar areas, under guard. Other captive peoples were moved into their vacated lands. Some original Israelites were undoubtedly still in the area of Israel, having evaded capture. Mixed with the newly transplanted people brought by the Assyrians, they intermarried and mixed religious beliefs, absorbing elements of both.
When Judah was allowed to return under the Persians they scorned these people with their false religious practices, as they were despised at the time of Christ. They became known as the Samaritans.
Source: Meridian Magazine
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
What I find interesting is that the children pictured have their heads shaved except for patches which they grew long and braided, much like children in Africa do.
By the way Dana, what do you think of this thread here?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [ What I find interesting is that the children pictured have their heads shaved except for patches which they grew long and braided, much like children in Africa do.
By the way Dana, what do you think of this thread here?
Hi Djehuti - well I've read it previously and found it for the most part funny - especially the second comment - but for the most part the whole question is irrelevant. I subscribe to Kamal Salibi's and other early alternative theories about Old Testament origins and the allegory of Noah.
I believe as I posted before that most of the people mentioned in Genesis were derived from the area south of Mecca in Arabia and originating in Africa.
I don't subscribe to polygenetic theory or the fundamentalist idea that just because black people were mentioned in Genesis everyone had to be listed there, (the people mentioned are the ancestors of different tribes of yellow, white, black etc).
This is because Salibi had already identified a majority of the place names in this region. I myself have identified the people names. Furthermore Cana'ani and Israelites if you read the Genesis portion carefully are the same people.
I agree a lot of what with what al Takruri was saying although probably for different reasons. Salibi claimed the Elam mentioned in the Bible is not the southern Iranian "Elam" but one of the Alam villages that are still located in the Hejaz Asir where he also finds Lachish (now named Lakathah) where similar small Negroid people to the ones shown in Assyrian reliefs are still living.
I don't know if you ever saw what I posted on the 16th century Jews of Khaibar in the northern Hejaz.
"They and the Qenite group who included Banu Nazir or Nadir and Qurayza lived in Khaibar and Yathrib are described as smiths, black and small in stature.
Thus we have a 16th century AD writing of Ludovico Bartema on the Jews of Arabia remaining in Khaibar the last capital of Judaism in North Arabia: The Jews of Kaibar were said to be the remnant of the Banu Nadzir, Nazir or Nazirenes belonging to the Hadal (Hudayl or Hudha’il) of ancient Arabia. Bartema stated “in the space of eyght days we came to a mountayne which conteyneth in circuite ten ot twelve myles. This is inhabited with jewes, to the number of 5 thousande or thereabout.. They are very little stature, as of the height of five or sixe spannes, and some much lesse. They have small voices like women, and (are) of blacke colour, yet some blacker than others. They feed of none other meate than goat fleshes. They are circumcised and deny not themselves to be Jewes. If by chaunce, any Mahumetan come into their handes, they flay him alyve.” Cited by Richard Burton in Pilgrimage to Al-Medinah and Mecca published."
In the middle ages a famous Jew came from Khaibar in Arabia claiming to be from the tribe of Reuben. He is described as swarte and a dwarf. I think his name was David but I can't remember now.
I need to revise the below and post it on Egyptsearch.
Especiallly the sections of the article (in several parts) dealing with the ancient Israelites under their modern names.
This was posted a while back on africa resource and I was related the names of Arabian tribes many of whom are still near black to the names of Judaean tribes mentioned in the book of Ezra, Nehemiah etc. in the Bible.
"ORIGINS: Biblical References to Soleym ibn Mansur, who was Manasseh son of Joseph whose brother was Levi.
“And unto Joseph in the land of Misraim were born Manasseh and Ephraim, which Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On bare unto him.” Genesis 46:20 of the Bible
“From Banu Sulaim ibn Mansoor were descended Ra’l, Zakwan, ‘Asiyyah ibn Khuyfaf ibn Imri’ Al- Qais ibn Buhthah ibn Sulaim and Za’b ibn Malik ibn Khufaf ibn Imri’ Al- Qais ibn Buhthah ibn Sulaim …” from Mukhta?ar S?rat Al-Ras?l ( Biography of the Prophet ) attributed to Abdul Wahab born 1703.
The above passage mentions Rachel, Za’avan, Asenath (Asiyyeh – “the Israelite woman” of Al-Tabari’s writings), Hobab (or Khufaf) and Potiphera (or Bodhi).
As mentioned in a previous Part in this blog the genealogy of the famous Banu Sulaym is the same as that of the Mazin and Hawazin sons of Mansour. Mansur, we have said was the name of a tribe and is today pronounced Manase’ir or Manasir in Sudan and eastern Arabia. Sulaym tribes came of Manas’ir (Manasseh) son of Ikrima (Kirama, Ezra or Esdras 2:26) son of Khasafa (Chasupha Ezra 2:43) son of Kais ibn Ailan (Elah son of Jephunneh) which was the tribe known as El Nas (the Nasi of Codex Vaticanus and Nasi, King James Version or Neziah – Ezra 2:54, Neh 7:56), who was brother of El Yas (Elias). Both El Yas and El Nas are in Arabian tradition the sons of Mudar or Muzar (Mitzraim or Mizrah, which came to name Egypt) son of Nizar (Nasirah) son of Ma’ad or Mo’ad (Ma’adei Nehemiah 12), almost all of them Levites. Mizra or Misraim is called the child of Kush, son of Ham by the Armenian writer St Moses of Chorene (5th c. A.D.).
Hazim or Hawazim bin Mansur (Hashum – Ezra 10:33 ) Ezra 10:33 Of the sons of Hashum: Mattenai, Mattattah, Zabad, Eliphelet, Jeremai, Manasseh, Shimei.
Nehemiah 8:4 – Ezra the scribe stood on a pulpit of wood…and beside him stood Mattithiah, and Shema, and Anaiah, and Uriah, and Hilkiah, and Maaseiah, on his right hand; and on his left hand, … and Hashum, and Hashbaddanah, Zechariah, and Meshullam. Nehemiah 10:18 – Hodiah, Hashum, Bezai.
The Hawazin bin Mansur of northwest Arabia or Hejaz (spoken described in the previous Chapters of this blog) – a sister tribe of the Sulaym divides into the Muzayna and Zahiri or Zawahir . Hawazin is plural for Hazim. The Ateibah (see modern description below) a major section of the Hawazin are divided into Huteim, Ruqal or Rukhalah, Abud or Abdah, Quraysh, Barqah. The Barqah include the Dawasir, Khawatir, Nuweirah and Khanafir (formerly called Hanifah) .
Banu Hamida (or Mehida Ezra 2:52) Ezra 2:52 the children of Bazluth, the children of Mehida, the children of Harsha,
Circa 1879 – Describing some of the Hamida as a large clan of the Banu Salim of Hejaz, Sir Richard Francis Burton says they were, “small chocolate colored beings, stunted and thin… mops of bushy hair… straggling beards , vicious eyes, frowning brows … armed with scabbards slung over the shoulder and Janbiyyah daggers…” a people “of the great Hejazi tribe that has kept his blood pure for the last 13 centuries…” Burton in Personal Narrative of a Pilgrimage to el Medina and Mecca .p. 173 3rd edition William Mullen and Son.
The name Hamida is related by Kamal Salibi to Mehida mentioned in Ezra 2:52. They were a family of the Nethinim ( a term first applied to the Levites) along with the other descendants of Sulaym and Mansour. Of the tribe of Hadar it is found to be the name of several kings of Edom as well as the eighth son of Ismail and often written Hadad.
Ezra 2:42 mentions the Banu Salim tribes of Salimi, Utur or Watar, Huwaytat, Uqba and Sobh living in 20th century Transjordan together as the people from whom Nebudchadnezzar had taken “the children of Israel”. They are called the sons of Shallum, the sons of Ater, the sons of Akkub, the sons of Hatita, the sons of Shobai.” Meshellam was the same as Shallum or Shelamiah a Korahite Levite (called Meshelemiah in I Chr 26:1) who was a gatekeeper at the East Gate of the Temple in the time of King David. His son was in charge of the North Gate. Musalimah (Biblical Meshellam and Shellamiah ) the name of the Uqub or Akab tribe now occupying the Transjordanian area of Hejaz. Salibi found many of the gates far to the South in the region of Asir (southern Hejaz).
Banu Uqba (or Akkub – Ezra 2:42) Ezra 2:42 The children of the porters: the children of Shallum, the children of Ater, the children of Talmon, the children of Akkub, the children of Hatita. 1 Chronicles 9:17 And the door-keepers: Shallum and Akkub and Talmon and Ahiman and their brothers: Shallum was the chief.
On the Ukbah it was said by Burton, “They preserve the memory of their ancestor ‘Ukbah, and declare that they come from the south…. they are borne out by the written genealogies, who derive them from “Ukbah, the son of Maghrabah, son of Heram,” of the Kahtániyyah (Joctanite) Arabs, some of the noblest of Bedawi blood. At first called ‘El-Musalimah, ‘ they were lords of all the broad lands extending southward between Shamah (Syria) and the Wady Damah below the port of Ziba. From Chapter 5 of Land of Midian. (see the Haram bin Sammal below or Harim)
Banu Ateibe or Ateybah (Tabba’oth Ezra 2:42) Ezra 2:43 – The Nethinim: the children of Ziha, the children of Hasupha, the children of Tabbaoth.
Kamal Salibi connects the name of the Ateibe or Ateiyyib with the Biblical Tabba’oth. The Ateibah or Otaiba (see modern description below) a major section of the Hawazim are divided into Huteim, Ruqal or Rukhalah, Abud or Abdah, Quraysh, Barqah. The Barqah include the Dawasir, Khawatir, Nuweirah and Khanafir (formerly called Hanifah) . Of the Otaiba also written (Ateyba, Utaiba, Ateibe, etc.) a century ago by James Hamilton, “they wore their hair in long curly plaits” and their skin was “a dark brown”. See pp. 129-130, Wanderings Around the Birthplace of Mohammed, published by R. Bentley, 1857.
Banu Haram (Harim – Ezra 10:21)..."
Most people however don't really want to know that these people still exist. They want the Ben Hur movie with white Japhetites and darkened Canaanites and Israelites with Russian faces.
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Yes, you're referring to the famous Dawiydh haRe`ubeni (David Reubeni) who gave hope especially to the Iberian Sepharadiym who were at their nadir due to the Expulsion and the Inquisition.
They were enheartened to hear of an independent Israel "kingdom" with an army and by Reubeni's receptions by various heads of state.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: In the middle ages a famous Jew came from Khaibar in Arabia claiming to be from the tribe of Reuben. He is described as swarte and a dwarf. I think his name was David but I can't remember now.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Yes, you're referring to the famous Dawiydh haRe`ubeni (David Reubeni) who gave hope especially to the Iberian Sepharadiym who were at their nadir due to the Expulsion and the Inquisition.
They were enheartened to hear of an independent Israel "kingdom" with an army and by Reubeni's receptions by various heads of state.
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: In the middle ages a famous Jew came from Khaibar in Arabia claiming to be from the tribe of Reuben. He is described as swarte and a dwarf. I think his name was David but I can't remember now.
If I'm remembering correctly he identified Khaibar as the land of the Biblical Chabur or Habor which is in line with Kamal Salibi's theory. Most early Biblical historians claim Habor was further north in Assyria or Central Asia somewhere.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
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