Upper Egyptians; inarguably the purest descendants of Pharaonic Civilization.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Good post wally. Let me put some more Upper Egyptians in this thread:
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
More Pics of Upper Egyptians:
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.
Posted by Neferet (Member # 17109) on :
When you find some photos of the "Ancient" lower Egyptians, please post them.
I believe these are "Modern" photos of the upper Egyptians (meaning, the closest descendants to the "Ancient" Egyptians).
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Neferet: When you find some photos of the "Ancient" lower egyptians, please post them. I believe these are "Modern" photos of the upper Egyptians.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.
Yes the thread title and initial posts would refer to modern Egyptians. It is unclear whether or not Wally would say the same thing about the ancient Egyptians. I will assume for the moment that Wally believes that Lower Egyptians were no less "pure"(unpleasant term) descendants of the Pharaohs than Upper Egyptians in dynastic times.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Posted by Hammer (Member # 17003) on :
More wallyisms...geez. for the 2000th time wally. You can't post modern pictures to make a point about the ancient past. Look at the statue of Rahotep, that is an ancient egyptian or the mummy of out red headed beauty, Queen tiye. North Africans were not negroes, black africa is south of the Sahara. Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Hammer
Bahaahhahhahah
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
All I will say is this Hammer, We Have Tiye's Bust. Nothing "red" about her.
Peace
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
More Upper Egyptians:
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Fellaheen
Nile River boat boys
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Got to make up you mind brother. Is it the Beja or the "Nubians". The Beja are a better representation of the ancient ones. These so called Upper Egytians seem to better represent the old lower egytians.
One thing that stands out is that the ancient ones were very dark as displayed on the numerous wall murals and the few pics I have seen of the Beja shows that they are very dark.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Got to make up you mind brother. Is it the Beja or the "Nubians". The Beja are a better representation of the ancient ones. These so called Upper Egytians seem to better represent the old lower egytians...
a) Ethnic Upper Egyptians are direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians, their ancestors have been in the country since before the pyramids - they are the purest (not in "racially pure" but rather in the historical sense) descendants of the Ancient Egyptians...
b) The Beja are the closest relatives of the Ancient Egyptians...
--IE, you are a direct descendant from your parents; your cousins are your relatives...
c) You also seem to buy into the fallacy that there was an ethnic distinction between Upper and Lower Egypt; there was none...
Again, here are my examples of the Ancient Egyptians' purest descendants...
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Kulu Kara fe Kara wallahi why do u guys keep repeating the same old thing over and over again.
Damn can u Americans and Europeans keep your mouth shut about color im sure u both can agree that the Ancient egyptians are real Africans and not Europeans or Whites is that easy enough.
Im sure that those in bahri as well as fellahin and biladi egytians they know who is who and who has been in and around egypt for many long years.
Ever notice that those who live in egypt are not of one nationality or tribe. Trust me next time any of go to egypt ask the different people what is there origins and there Qiyama not everyone is egyptian no matter what color they are.
A good example of a Federation of nations states is Modern Day Ethiopia and Sudan probably no other country that resembles the ancient federation of nation states of ancient KMT-Kush Meroe-Nubia than modern day Sudan, and Ethiopia.
Egyptians are from many different tribes Beja,Sa3eedi,Mahas,Kanuz,Bedu,Turki,BerberSiwa,etc u cant attribute modern upper egyptians to ancient egyptians its like modern day native indians to ancient ones a slight difference.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by AswaniAswad:
...out of all your subjective ranting, you did make an accurate observation, of which I have seriously entertained the idea of illustrating on this forum...
quote:A good example of a Federation of nations states is Modern Day Ethiopia and Sudan probably no other country that resembles the ancient federation of nation states of ancient KMT-Kush Meroe-Nubia than modern day Sudan, and Ethiopia.
but with specifics; Like the Anu ethnic group which founded/unified the multi-ethnic nation of Kemet; it was the Amhara ethnic group which founded/unified the multi-ethnic modern state of Ethiopia, even overthrowing the Oromo ethnic majority...
quote:Egyptians are from many different tribes (tribes?!?) Beja,Sa3eedi,Mahas,Kanuz,Bedu,Turki,BerberSiwa,etc u cant attribute modern upper egyptians to ancient egyptians its like modern day native indians to ancient ones a slight difference.
...yes, and South Africans are from many different nationalities (tribes?!?) , Zulu, Xhosa, Khoisan, Afrikaner, Anglo, Sotho...(Do you remember Apartheid?)
And these are some of the descendants of colonial Egyptians - The Arab Republic of Egypt
1) Omar Sharif: Lebanese Syrian descent
2) Zahi Hawass: Asiatic Arab descent
3) Egyptian billionaire
4) President Hosni Mubarak
These prominent Egyptians bear no resemblance to the Ancient Egyptians, nor to the modern Upper Egyptians... Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
the title of this thread:
Upper Egyptians; inarguably the purest descendants of Pharaonic Civilization.
and some photos in this thread:
If you look at a lot of the pictures in this thread many people have kinky hair but some have straight hair. My question is how did these particular people get straight hair? Is it from the Levant, Arabia or Anatolia or did it get like that strictly in North Africa? Honestly I don't know the answer and this same unknown applies to ancient Egypt but even more.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...some East African relatives of Upper Egyptians: Oromo, Amhara, Afar, Somali, Sidamo....
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
I call this thread Wally's Google Images Scrapbook
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...Why I'm partial to this photograph.
They say that everyone has a twin look-a-like somewhere; in any event, this little Upper Egyptian girl is a "clone" of a close blood relative of mine! ...swear to God
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
More Upper Egyptians
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Upper Egyptians as well as Northern Sudan all the way to Somali they look very similar almost the same family wow never new that
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyingass: somebody please explain to me, according to the thread title, why the ancient Lower Egyptians (northern Egyptians) are are less "pure" descendants of the Pharaohs than the Upper Egyptians of the South.
Because anyone with the most basic and elementary understanding of history knows that Lower Egypt i.e. the Delta was the entry point of all the foreign invasions of Egypt not only from Asia but also Europe. That you missed this is not surprising.
quote:Originally posted by Hammered-brains: More wallyisms...geez. for the 2000th time wally. You can't post modern pictures to make a point about the ancient past. Look at the statue of Rahotep, that is an ancient egyptian or the mummy of out red headed beauty, Queen tiye. North Africans were not negroes, black africa is south of the Sahara.
More Hammered-brained nonsense. For the 2millionth time already. You can't keep repeating the crap over and over again and expect us to take this as evidence.
We've seen the statue of Rahotep.
^ Looks like a black man to me, although the paint is obviously faded as can be seen from the dark traces around the neck and chin and even the black paint of the hair is faded.
As for the Elder Lady, it was explained about a thousand times that you can't expect the hair of a mummified corpse to look the same after the effects of embalming fluid and thousands of years of dehydration, or should I post pics of the "blonde" and "red-head" mummies of Peru again?
Besides this was how the Elder Lady was described by doctors who examined the skull:
"First identified as Queen Tiye The occipital bun is reminiscent of Mesolithic Nubians (see below). Sagittal plateau, rounded forehead with moderately projecting glabella; globular cranium with high vault. Protrusion of incisors, receding chin and steep mandible. Very vertical zygomatic arches and pronounced maxillary prognathism."-- Dr. James Harris and Dr. Edward Wente (1980)
Tiye's bust
Lastly, blacks are native to *ALL* of Africa not just "sub-Sahara" as we have explained to you all too many times that the Sahara did not always exist and neither was it ever a barrier to populations as (black) populations still live in and north of the desert not just the Egyptians.
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
Very nice thread!
There are some more Upper Egyptians, the true descendants of pharaos:
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira: Very nice thread! There are some more Upper Egyptians, the true descendants of pharaos:...
...sorry, but your display of Upper Egyptians won't fly on this forum; you have falsely tried to equate these images of Turkish-Egyptians, Circassian-Egyptians, Syrian-Egyptians as "purest descendants of the Pharaohs"; it will be viewed here as bogus and misleading...
The beautiful Charlize Theron is a South African but she is not a descendant of the Zulu, the Matabele, the Xhosa...she is of French/German descent, still she is South African...
We here know that you are not, or should not be unaware of history, colonialism and its processes; but you are of course free to pretend that we here on this forum are not aware of history, colonialism, politics...
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Caipira
While I am not as Blunt as Wally when it comes to calling out someone, you must understand that the pics you have shown of Upper Egyptians show the Heritage of mixing between Egypt and Asia.
I also KNOW that light skinned Egyptians also have Majority African genes so I will never say they are outsiders BUT I will say you should show the Upper Egptians with the least amount of mixture.
Peace
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ...sorry, but your display of Upper Egyptians won't fly on this forum; you have falsely tried to equate these images of Turkish-Egyptians, Circassian-Egyptians, Syrian-Egyptians as "purest descendants of the Pharaohs"; it will be viewed here as bogus and misleading...
I am not sure what you mean. The people in the photos are almost exclusively Upper Egyptian villagers from the region between Beni Suef and Sohag, both Muslims and Christians. The Turks, Circassians and Syrians mixed mostly with people in the urban areas of the Delta. I purposely put emphasis on group photos, since they represent better the diversity existing in the region.
I am also not sure how you can label the photos I posted as misleading if the photos posted by you are hardly a good illustration of the anthropological character of the Upper Egyptian population. You clearly selected just the darkest possible types you could find and judging by the attire some of those people are actually rather Sudanese.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Wally can tell people's ancestry just by looking. He has magical powers
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: Caipira
While I am not as Blunt as Wally when it comes to calling out someone, you must understand that the pics you have shown of Upper Egyptians show the Heritage of mixing between Egypt and Asia.
I also KNOW that light skinned Egyptians also have Majority African genes so I will never say they are outsiders BUT I will say you should show the Upper Egptians with the least amount of mixture.
Peace
Hi,
"with the least amount of mixture" is supposed to mean the darkest ones? Well, there are some pretty dark types in those photos, don't you see them? However, having said that I don't quite understand how you can be so sure that all the lighter or more "Middle Eastern" types are less "pure". Are you sure that there was no racial diversity in those areas in the ancient times? Actually, imagine those people without beards and mustaches and in ancient Egyptian costumes and they will look very much like the "Kemetian" people on ancient paintings (although given the stylized nature of the Ancient Egyptian art, it is rather problematic to use it as a decisive argument for any theory about their exact appearance).
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: Wally can tell people's ancestry just by looking. He has magical powers
One doesn't have to have "magical" powers in order to perceive a person's ethnicity, you simply have to have unclouded vision - for example:
a) I can usually, without them speaking, distinguish a Korean from a Japanese person - and the both of them from a Chinese person...
b) I can distinguish a Mexican of Spanish descent from a Mexican of Indian descent from a Mestizo...
Again, none of this is "magical", you simply have to like people and to enjoy interacting with people of all ethnicities (a miracle, I suppose, of growing up in the San Francisco bay area.)
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: b) I can distinguish a Mexican of Spanish descent from a Mexican of Indian descent from a Mestizo...
The problem is that we know very well how the pure indigenous Mexicans and pure Spaniards look like, since there are still many representatives of these groups in the world and we know very well when and under what circumstances they mixed.
However, I am really curious how you can tell an Egyptian fellah's ancestry just by looking. How do you know the exact appearance of the people who lived in the area of el Minya or Assiut in 2000 BC?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira:
quote:Originally posted by Wally: b) I can distinguish a Mexican of Spanish descent from a Mexican of Indian descent from a Mestizo...
The problem is that we know very well how the pure indigenous Mexicans and pure Spaniards look like, since there are still many representatives of these groups in the world and we know very well when and under what circumstances they mixed.
However, I am really curious how you can tell an Egyptian fellah's ancestry just by looking. How do you know the exact appearance of the people who lived in the area of el Minya or Assiut in 2000 BC?
These ARE Upper Egyptians: Aswanis...
These are NOT Upper Egyptians you posted, but Egyptians from beni suef, which is about 75 miles south of Cairo
Beni Suef
... Posted by anthropos (Member # 9410) on :
Ridiculous thread. The topic starter believes that Upper Egyptian aka the pure descendants of the paraohs are unmixed and have some kind of frozen DNA in their cells. All cultures are mixed at some point.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by anthropos: Ridiculous thread. The topic starter believes that Upper Egyptian aka the pure descendants of the paraohs are unmixed and have some kind of frozen DNA in their cells. All cultures are mixed at some point.
On 28 September, 2010 05:23 PM I posted within this topic:
quote: Ethnic Upper Egyptians are direct descendants of the Ancient Egyptians, their ancestors have been in the country since before the pyramids - they are the purest (not in "racially pure" but rather in the historical sense) descendants of the Ancient Egyptians...
This was my clarification of my usage of the word "pure", which is:
Pure = arrant; without qualification
I could have easily named this topic: "Upper Egyptians: Without qualification, the direct descendants of the Pharaohs "; but I learned early in life that brevity was the key to good writing, thus "Upper Egyptians: Purest descendants of the Pharaohs"...
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: These are NOT Upper Egyptians you posted, but Egyptians from beni suef, which is about 75 miles south of Cairo
Well, the precise boundaries of Upper Egypt are disputable. According to the Ancient Egyptian definition (which should be the most authoritative for you), basically the whole area between Memphis and Aswan (and therefore including Beni Suef) was "Upper Egypt" and known as Ta Shemau in opposition to "Lower Egypt" - Ta Mehu. Also according to the modern Egyptian definition the Nile Valley part of Egypt is considered to be one region called el Sa'id (الصعيد) alias Upper Egypt.
However, you have only dodged answering my question, which is how can you know that the people in the photos I posted are "Turkish" or "Syrian" Egyptians as opposed to your allegedly more "authentic" ones (some of them being most probably Sudanese). Do you know their genealogies? Do you know exactly how the people in those regions looked like 4000 years ago?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira: ...you have only dodged answering my question, which is how can you know that the people in the photos I posted are "Turkish" or "Syrian" Egyptians as opposed to your allegedly more "authentic" ones (some of them being most probably Sudanese). Do you know their genealogies? Do you know exactly how the people in those regions looked like 4000 years ago?
"Elementary my dear Watson, elementary"
Ancient Mayan Civilization
and their descendants
Colonial Spanish ruling class of Mesoamerica ( Calderon and Fox of Mexico)
The Ancient Egyptians, who because Ancient Egypt is a 'dead' civilization...
the 'tomb robbers' would then like for you to believe that their descendants
are also dead in order to convince you that these Aamu colonialists created this civilization... Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siptah: Hemiunu profile and some relatives:
Authentic Hemiunu relief:
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally:
The Ancient Egyptians, who because Ancient Egypt is a 'dead' civilization...
the 'tomb robbers' would then like for you to believe that their descendants
are also dead in order to convince you that these Aamu colonialists created this civilization...
Well, again you proved to be unable to answer my questions. The Ancient Egyptian art was stylized. If we should take it as a 100% realistic depiction of the Ancient Egyptian's appearance, then we would have to come to the conclusion that Egyptian women were mostly yellowish.
In any case the male population is depicted as being mostly light or dark brown with black hair and varying, albeit usually "moderate" features. Which is how could be very well described many people in the photos of Upper Egyptians which I posted.
And please, stop pretending that those 2 guys in the 5th and 6th photo are Egyptians, they are almost certainly Sudanese (at least the second one). Where did you find them?
Posted by NonProphet (Member # 17745) on :
Upper Egypt covers most of the Nile Valley in Egypt. In the Old Kingdom, UE was from Memphis in the North to near Edfu or Aswan. Upper refers to up river and a higher elevation and NOT to South. The Nile flows from South to North in the Delta - Lower(elevation)Egypt. The AE didn't know the true source of the Nile and thought it arose from underground caverns near the southern border.
On January 27, 28 and 29, 2003, Egyptian police conducted raids of Sudanese, Liberian and sub-Saharan African residences in the Maadi area. Detainees, including those with refugee cards, reported ill treatment, beatings and abuse. One detainee reported-
I was taken into a police wagon on the street. They drove around to collect other black people. They would ask Egyptians on the street, "Where are the buildings where blacks live?" It was about one hour driving around like this. By the end there were ten or twelve Africans in the car." HRW
Other detainees alleged that police referred to the raids as "Black Day" and that police intake sheets were labeled, "Operation Track Down Blacks."
There are tens of thousands of Sudanese refugees in Egypt, most of them seeking refuge from ongoing military conflicts in their home country of Sudan. Their official status as refugees is highly disputed, and they have been subject to racial discrimination and police violence. They live among a much larger population of Sudanese migrants in Egypt, more than two million people of Sudanese nationality (by most estimates; a full range is 750,000 to 4 million (FMRS 2006:5) who live in Egypt. The U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants believes many more of these migrants are in fact refugees, but see little benefit in seeking recognition.
Egypt employs a "shoot to stop" policy against refugees attempting to continue to Israel. According to Human Rights Watch, over 50 refugees, including women and children, have been shot by Egyptian border guards since 2007.[1][2]
The violent destabilization and economic collapse caused by the immense amount of death and destruction in Sudan has forced millions of civilians to flee their homes and cities.[3] Many refugees currently residing in Egypt escaped from the Second Sudanese Civil War, where war "pitted black African separatists" and "Christians" against a "Sudanese government run by Muslim, Arabic-speaking northerners who had tried to impose Islamic law on the country." 1 in 5 Sudanese were killed in the war, and over 4 million civilians in the South have been given Internally Displaced Persons status. [4] The majority of these IDPs are attempting to resettle outside of the country, but efforts have produced minimal results.
In January of 2004, Egyptian politicians wrote legislation for a “Four Freedoms Agreement,” which would grant both Sudanese and Egyptians the freedom of movement, residence, ownership and work in either country. It would allow Sudanese nationals to live indefinitely in Egypt while no longer having to seek refugee status to remain in the country. The agreement would not enable Sudanese refugees to benefit from educational, medical, or social benefits entitled to native citizens. However, as of 2009, the agreement has yet to be ratified by the Egyptian government. [5]
Refugees in Egypt experience discrimination by both the government and civilian services. A series of laws passed by parliament has effectively stalled legal and financial gains for refugees of all nationalities, and the response by the international community has been limited.
Legal employment in Egypt is "virtually" impossible for Sudanese refugees. The 2003 Labor Law and its implementing Ministerial Decree and the 2004 Decree of the Ministry of Manpower and Emigration force all foreigners including refugees to have a permit to work in "gainful" employment. The requirements are reportedly very "stringent," and include assessments of legal status, employer sponsorship, and non-competition with nationals. In 2006, employers have since been required to submit a certificate verifying Sudanese nationals are not carrying AIDS. As a result of these requirements, only a fraction of Sudanese have obtained working permits.
* Forced Migration and Refugee Studies program (FMRS) of the American University in Cairo, A TRAGEDY OF FAILURES AND FALSE EXPECTATIONS: Report on the Events Surrounding the Three-month Sit-in and Forced Removal of Sudanese Refugees in Cairo, September–December 2005, June 2006. * Gamal Nkrumah, "The noose tightens," Al-Ahram Weekly, 5-11 January 2006. * U.S. Committee for Refugees and Immigrants (USCRI), World Refugee Survey 2005.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
again you proved to be unable to answer my questions. The Ancient Egyptian art was stylized. If we should take it as a 100% realistic depiction of the Ancient Egyptian's appearance, then we would have to come to the conclusion that Egyptian women were mostly yellowish.
While we can't rely 100% on art to say it was all stylized is an overexaggeration. Please see here..
To me the Egyptian art is pretty much an indicator on how they saw themselves.
In any case the male population is depicted as being mostly light or dark brown with black hair and varying, albeit usually "moderate" features. Which is how could be very well described many people in the photos of Upper Egyptians which I posted.
Both types were present in Ancient Egypt.
And please, stop pretending that those 2 guys in the 5th and 6th photo are Egyptians, they are almost certainly Sudanese (at least the second one). Where did you find them?
Im not sure but I think you are talking about..
^^^^ The Man is not a "Sudanese" but a Fallahin of Upper Egypt..
BTW, I don't speak for Wally I don't know what his prob. is...?? but I hope I helped.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Upper Egyptians (Uplanders) - Direct descendants of the Pharaohs
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Posted by anthropos (Member # 9410) on :
OK Wally I see your point. You have an ancient Egyptian relief or papyrus picture that resembles a group of Egyptians of today. BUT How can you prove that Egypt in the old days wasn't as versatile genatically as it is today?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by anthropos: OK Wally I see your point. You have an ancient Egyptian relief or papyrus picture that resembles a group of Egyptians of today. BUT How can you prove that Egypt in the old days wasn't as versatile genatically as it is today?
...a must read
<><><>
"Zakrzewski (2007) provided a comprehensive summary of previous Egyptian craniometric studies and examined Egyptian crania from six time periods. She found that the earlier samples were relatively more homogeneous in comparison to the later groups. However, overall results indicated genetic continuity over the Egyptian Predynastic and Early Dynastic periods, albeit with a high level of genetic diversity within the population, suggesting an indigenous process of state formation." Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Im not sure but I think you are talking about..
^^^^ The Man is not a "Sudanese" but a Fallahin of Upper Egypt..
No, I meant the previous two photos, particularly the second one with the guy wearing a hat, which is certainly not Egyptian. I find it humorous that Wally uses photos of Sudanese as an example of the appearance of Upper Egyptians and at the same time claims them those which I posted are "Syrian Egyptians". Really funny.
As for that black & white photo I read the text and the guy was actually from a small Delta village called Oshkar, so he was NOT an Upper Egyptian. I suppose that he is identical with the black peasant Said mentioned in the last paragraphs of the text. Anyway, this guy doesn't even look Upper Egyptian, let alone Lower Egyptian, he looks like Southern Sudanese, so he is probably descendant of slaves brought into the area (where the overwhelming majority of people look TOTALLY different), after all there are also some black people in the nearby Palestine.
By the way, he was not a "Fallahin", but a fallah (فلاح), since fallaheen (فلاحين) is the plural of the word.
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
(Excerpt) A 1902 Study of Female Egyptian Mummy and Women by Dr. Colette M. Dowell
quote:NOTE: The original comparative studies on anatomical features are credited to Dr. C. Stratz, a German physician and physical anthropologist, between a female Egyptian mummy to live (living) women from Egypt over a century ago. Robert grouped them together to make this picture composite from Stratz's images and sent me it online with a note about the ladies
- see note below.
Robert Schoch: The woman...from Upper Egypt, to the south, (is) so more “African,” than the woman on the far right who appears to be a true Arab so to speak. I am not sure if the woman in clothing is the same woman who is unclothed next to her.
NEXT - I started looking at the ladies and their features and I thought of the Sphinx!
Colette Dowell: Notice the facial features on the Upper Egyptian woman; they are very similar in structure to the facial characteristics of the Egyptian mummy. The “Arabian” woman’s face is square and rectangular in comparison to that of the Upper Egyptian woman.
Modern day Egyptians are a blend of races; it is rare to come across an Egyptian with pure “African” Egyptian genes. The Egyptian faces you see in modern times are not the same as those only a century ago. There are however sects of Egyptians that are still somewhat “pure” in their blood line; usually stemming from Upper Egypt not that of Lower Egypt.
Wally, your link to the article by this Colette Dowell person shows the below picture not the one you posted. What are you trying to pull?
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Practically everyone here understands that you are an idiot...
a) I did not publish the graphics because I decided to recognize the copyright notice, which is why I posted the link for the visual reference...
b) the "<><><>" indicates something that is seperate from the quoted text
c) I'm sure that most here could follow this
quote:Originally posted by Wally: (Excerpt) A 1902 Study of Female Egyptian Mummy and Women by Dr. Colette M. Dowell
quote:NOTE: The original comparative studies on anatomical features are credited to Dr. C. Stratz, a German physician and physical anthropologist, between a female Egyptian mummy to live (living) women from Egypt over a century ago. Robert grouped them together to make this picture composite from Stratz's images and sent me it online with a note about the ladies
- see note below.
Robert Schoch: The woman...from Upper Egypt, to the south, (is) so more “African,” than the woman on the far right who appears to be a true Arab so to speak. I am not sure if the woman in clothing is the same woman who is unclothed next to her.
NEXT - I started looking at the ladies and their features and I thought of the Sphinx!
Colette Dowell: Notice the facial features on the Upper Egyptian woman; they are very similar in structure to the facial characteristics of the Egyptian mummy. The “Arabian” woman’s face is square and rectangular in comparison to that of the Upper Egyptian woman.
Modern day Egyptians are a blend of races; it is rare to come across an Egyptian with pure “African” Egyptian genes. The Egyptian faces you see in modern times are not the same as those only a century ago. There are however sects of Egyptians that are still somewhat “pure” in their blood line; usually stemming from Upper Egypt not that of Lower Egypt.
are you really claiming that these girls are from Upper Egypt? If you do, then I am afraid that it is utterly meaningless to take you seriously anymore. What they wear has absolutely nothing to do with the traditional attire of Upper Egyptian women. They are either Nubians or more probably they belong to some Sudanese or even Ethiopian ethnic group.
Are you really that ingenuous? What exactly are you trying to prove with such misleading photos?
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Im not sure but I think you are talking about..
^^^^ The Man is not a "Sudanese" but a Fallahin of Upper Egypt..
No, I meant the previous two photos, particularly the second one with the guy wearing a hat, which is certainly not Egyptian. I find it humorous that Wally uses photos of Sudanese as an example of the appearance of Upper Egyptians and at the same time claims them those which I posted are "Syrian Egyptians". Really funny.
As for that black & white photo I read the text and the guy was actually from a small Delta village called Oshkar, so he was NOT an Upper Egyptian. I suppose that he is identical with the black peasant Said mentioned in the last paragraphs of the text. Anyway, this guy doesn't even look Upper Egyptian, let alone Lower Egyptian, he looks like Southern Sudanese, so he is probably descendant of slaves brought into the area (where the overwhelming majority of people look TOTALLY different), after all there are also some black people in the nearby Palestine.
By the way, he was not a "Fallahin", but a fallah (فلاح), since fallaheen (فلاحين) is the plural of the word.
First off the website does not identify the man as Said, the black Peasant. The Photo is located at the begining of the site when its talking about and introducing the Egyptian Fallaheen. So using comprehension the man is a Fallaheen.
Second, if he is Said, thae article makes it clear his is a Fellahin or descended from Nomands not slaves.
I got a sense of the relative feelings of the fellahin for Nasser and Sadat from Said, an illiterate peasant employed by my journalist friend to tend the orchards on his property at the edge of the village. Said is tall and black, one of the few black men to be seen in the area, perhaps a descendant of African nomads. He lives in a small mud brick house, typical of the village, with a central courtyard shared by his wife, their four children, a. donkey, several chickens, and a large round oven to bake bread in. On the roof are pigeon coops and bales of hay.
I find it funny how you accuse Wally of Eyeball research and ask him how does he know your Egyptians were not present in Pharonic periods but then turn around and call Blacker Egyptians "Sudanese"...as if these people called themselves Sudanese and Egyptian prior to Arab Invaders.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: First off the website does not identify the man as Said, the black Peasant. The Photo is located at the begining of the site when its talking about and introducing the Egyptian Fallaheen. So using comprehension the man is a Fallaheen.
Second, if he is Said, thae article makes it clear his is a Fellahin or descended from Nomands not slaves.
There is no doubt that the guy was a fellah (not "Fellahin", I already told you that it's the plural form of the word), but he was a Lower Egyptian and not Upper Egyptian as you have been claiming. The article talks about a village in the Delta, not about Upper Egypt. Are you going to acknowledge your mistake?
Then, since there is no description of the photo it would be reasonable to presume that the black guy is identical with Said, who was explicitly mentioned as being black. As for his origin, I really don't know what the author meant by those "African nomads", since as far as I know no South Sudanese looking tribesmen have been living in the region of the Eastern Delta.
quote:I find it funny how you accuse Wally of Eyeball research and ask him how does he know your Egyptians were not present in Pharonic periods but then turn around and call Blacker Egyptians "Sudanese"...as if these people called themselves Sudanese and Egyptian prior to Arab Invaders.
No, I don't call "blacker Egyptians" Sudanese. I merely suspect that those two guys on the photos which I indicated are probably Sudanese, since their clothes don't look Egyptian, that's all. And as for your comment about Sudanese and Egyptians not calling themselves that way before the Arab invasion I really don't know what are trying to say by that. That it's OK to post photos of Sudanese and pretend that they are Egyptians and vice versa?
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Some more Upper Egyptians
Nice photos, but all of them seem to be taken just in the area between Luxor and Aswan. Why you don't post some photos from other parts of Upper Egypt as Sohag, Tahta or Assiut, preferably group photos of fellaheen and not just some selected individuals? It could be also very interesting or not? Why this "Luxor-Aswan centrism"? Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Are you going to acknowledge your mistake?
O.K so he is lower Egyptian, but are you gonna admit your mistake of assuming he was descended from Southern Sudanese Slaves rather than being a Lower Egyptian Fallahin?
No, I don't call "blacker Egyptians" Sudanese. I merely suspect that those two guys on the photos which I indicated are probably Sudanese, since their clothes don't look Egyptian, that's all. And as for your comment about Sudanese and Egyptians not calling themselves that way before the Arab invasion I really don't know what are trying to say by that. That it's OK to post photos of Sudanese and pretend that they are Egyptians and vice versa?
I understand what you are saying but to me the so called Sudanese and Upper Egyptians have similar looks and variety just the N. Sudanese are Darker the Upper Egyptians are Lighter but they have the same variety. I know that the current cultures of Sudanese and Egyptians are different but duiring Pharonic times this was not the case. Upper Egypt was ruled by Nubians alot during Pharonic times.
Sudanese is a term brought by Invaders like Indians label is here in America.
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Some more Upper Egyptians
Nice photos, but all of them seem to be taken just in the area between Luxor and Aswan. Why you don't post some photos from other parts of Upper Egypt as Sohag, Tahta or Assiut, preferably group photos of fellaheen and not just some selected individuals? It could be also very interesting or not? Why this "Luxor-Aswan centrism"?
LMAO, lets make it clear Im not here to judge who is More Egyptian. To me they all are Egyptians and their phenotype was present in the Pharonic period. With that said I did not "select" my photos I put "Upper Egypt" in the Flickr Search Engine and posted.
But you are right its mainly from Luxor-Aswan, probably because the photographers are attracted to the Sites and Monuments in Luxor the former capital of Egypt.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
Caipira I will try to look for people from the cities you suggested in the meantime I will use your Photos of Egyptians in My Thread on the Culture of Egypt. Honestly Im sick of the Race Debate already. Lets just put it this way Egypt and Nubia was built by Africans Dark Skinned Tropical people who had nothing to do with Pale Skinned Europeans. They were Culturally Sister Cultures.
some Americans pretending they ever set foot In Egypt
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: O.K so he is lower Egyptian, but are you gonna admit your mistake of assuming he was descended from Southern Sudanese Slaves rather than being a Lower Egyptian Fallahin?
I don't see any mistake from my side here. He might have been a Lower Egyptian fellah of Sudanese (possibly slave origin). The word fellah means just "farmer" by itself, nothing more. It doesn't say anything about race or origin of the person.
quote:I understand what you are saying but to me the so called Sudanese and Upper Egyptians have similar looks and variety just the N. Sudanese are Darker the Upper Egyptians are Lighter but they have the same variety. I know that the current cultures of Sudanese and Egyptians are different but duiring Pharonic times this was not the case. Upper Egypt was ruled by Nubians alot during Pharonic times.
Sudanese is a term brought by Invaders like Indians label is here in America.
Southern Upper Egyptians (I purposely wrote Southern since as far southwards as in Sohag there might be some very light skinned Lower Egyptian looking types) are not that different from Northern Sudanese, but that's logical because they live close to each other. There is a gradual change of phenotype in the Nile Valley with rather light skinned types, not much different from Palestinians or Lebanese in the Egyptian Delta and pitch black types in Southern Sudan.
As for the name "Sudanese" being of "non-indigenous" origin, I don't see any why it should be a reason for not using it. There is an internationally recognized country called Sudan with its citizens being called Sudanese and calling themselves that way. If we were to reject it on the ground of it not being of "indigenous origin", we could just as well reject the word French, because it was brought into the region by barbarian Frankish invaders. It just doesn't make any sense.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira:
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: O.K so he is lower Egyptian, but are you gonna admit your mistake of assuming he was descended from Southern Sudanese Slaves rather than being a Lower Egyptian Fallahin?
I don't see any mistake from my side here. He might have been a Lower Egyptian fellah of Sudanese (possibly slave origin). The word fellah means just "farmer" by itself, nothing more. It doesn't say anything about race or origin of the person.
quote:I understand what you are saying but to me the so called Sudanese and Upper Egyptians have similar looks and variety just the N. Sudanese are Darker the Upper Egyptians are Lighter but they have the same variety. I know that the current cultures of Sudanese and Egyptians are different but duiring Pharonic times this was not the case. Upper Egypt was ruled by Nubians alot during Pharonic times.
Sudanese is a term brought by Invaders like Indians label is here in America.
Southern Upper Egyptians (I purposely wrote Southern since as far southwards as in Sohag there might be some very light skinned Lower Egyptian looking types) are not that different from Northern Sudanese, but that's logical because they live close to each other. There is a gradual change of phenotype in the Nile Valley with rather light skinned types, not much different from Palestinians or Lebanese in the Egyptian Delta and pitch black types in Southern Sudan.
As for the name "Sudanese" being of "non-indigenous" origin, I don't see any why it should be a reason for not using it. There is an internationally recognized country called Sudan with its citizens being called Sudanese and calling themselves that way. If we were to reject it on the ground of it not being of "indigenous origin", we could just as well reject the word French, because it was brought into the region by barbarian Frankish invaders. It just doesn't make any sense.
Caipira I agree with you but as far as Sudanese goes, the only problem I have is like you said the N. Sudanese and Upper Egyptians resembele each other and that makes sense, but for some reason when people Say Sudanese they think Black and Egyptian they think Arab or Non Black.
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: LMAO, lets make it clear Im not here to judge who is More Egyptian. To me they all are Egyptians and their phenotype was present in the Pharonic period. With that said I did not "select" my photos I put "Upper Egypt" in the Flickr Search Engine and posted.
But you are right its mainly from Luxor-Aswan, probably because the photographers are attracted to the Sites and Monuments in Luxor the former capital of Egypt.
I completely agree with you. For me all those people are Egyptians (except maybe a few, whose exact provenience is unsure) and descendants of the great Ancient people. However, I think that if the title of this thread is "Upper Egyptians..." and not "the blackest Southern Egyptians" it should not be any problem if I or anybody else post photos of lighter types present in the whole given region.
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
Each of these videos was made by young Egyptians and taken in one Upper Egyptian Governorate. They show very well the diversity of Upper Egyptian phenotypes and also the traditional life in this fascinating region:
You silly, pathetic racists with your ridiculous agenda, camouflaged with "look at the clothes they're wearing, they can't be Upper Egyptians, they must be (anything else); well, idiots (and you know who you are), explain why all of these 'diverse' groups appear as one people; ignore the scenery and the clothing , can you see any difference between an Upper Egyptian, a Northern Sudanese, or an African American...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: [QB] You silly, pathetic racists with your ridiculous agenda, camouflaged with "look at the clothes they're wearing, they can't be Upper Egyptians, they must be (anything else); well, idiots (and you know who you are), explain why all of these 'diverse' groups appear as one people; ignore the scenery and the clothing , can you see any difference between an Upper Egyptian, a Northern Sudanese, or an African American...
ha ha...as if you have no agenda
Wally, they never heard of you in Egypt
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Beja lad - Upper Egypt
Upper Egyptian villagers
girls strolling - village in Upper Egypt
woman and child - village in Upper Egypt
young Upper Egyptian girls
baksheesh?? Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: You silly, pathetic racists with your ridiculous agenda, camouflaged with "look at the clothes they're wearing, they can't be Upper Egyptians, they must be (anything else); well, idiots (and you know who you are), explain why all of these 'diverse' groups appear as one people; ignore the scenery and the clothing , can you see any difference between an Upper Egyptian, a Northern Sudanese, or an African American...
It's pretty interesting that when you don't know how to rebut something, instead of logical arguments and eventual admitting of your mistake you resort to name calling. It says a lot about your personality. Anyway, why are you emphasizing that some Upper Egyptians and African Americans look similar? Do you feel better? Nobody here is saying that those "black" looking Upper Egyptians are descendants of foreigners or that their ancestors were not Ancient Egyptians, but the problem is that not all Upper Egyptians look so and it doesn't mean that those who don't are necessarily of foreign descent as you claim. The people living in that region have always been phenotypically diverse and until now you haven't explained to us how do you know what the people in the area of Beni Suef or el Minya looked like in 3000 or 2000 BC.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Say Caipira, check this out:
quote:...Egypt had always been recognized as a Negro country...This opinion did not change until the day it was recognized that Egypt was the Mother of all civilization. The eyesight suddenly improved and it was possible to distinguish, on the frescoes where everyone had previously recognized Negroes, evidences of a "white race with red skin," a "white race with dark red skin," a "white race with black skin." But they never distinguished as Egyptians, a white race with white skin.
-C.A. Diop
Can you therefore provide us with frescoes from Ancient Egyptian art from any period of Pharaonic civilization which depict Ancient Egyptians that resemble the images which you posted as "their descendants."
and...
quote:But, a more accurate explanation (for racism) would be that Egypt has for thousands of years been ruled by foreign, and lighter-skinned, invaders -- Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, the French and British. A large section of the pre-revolutionary Egyptian elite could trace their ancestry to Balkan, Caucasian and Turkish roots. Moreover, Napoleon Bonaparte's French expedition was notorious for sowing its seeds in places like the Delta city of Mansoura whose women are reputedly "exceptionally beautiful"; in Egyptian common parlance that means fair-skinned, with light-coloured eyes and hair.
A question of colour 14-08-2002 8 - 14 August 2002 Issue No. 598
Cairo, AL-AHRAM
Can you therefore provide us with frescoes from Ancient Egyptian art from any period of Pharaonic civilization which depict Ancient Egyptians that resemble the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks, French, British...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
authentic upper Egyptians
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Say Caipira, check this out: ...Egypt had always been recognized as a Negro country...This opinion did not change until the day it was recognized that Egypt was the Mother of all civilization. The eyesight suddenly improved and it was possible to distinguish, on the frescoes where everyone had previously recognized Negroes, evidences of a "white race with red skin," a "white race with dark red skin," a "white race with black skin." But they never distinguished as Egyptians, a white race with white skin.
-C.A. Diop
Well, I am sorry, but this quote doesn't really prove anything, since it's based just on a flawed logic and unsubstantiated claims. By whom had been Egypt "always recognized as a black country"? Did the Romans, who ruled Egypt for over 650 years, refer to its people as "black"? Did the Arabs find a black population in Egypt when they conquered it in 642 A.D.? So whom does the author mean? Medieval or early modern Europeans? If this is the case and if they really did consider the Ancient Egyptians to be black then the logical question is: how did they know what the Ancient Egyptians looked like? From the Bible?
I also don't see any justification for the implied assertion that the opposition against the "black Egypt theory" is actually a result of a hidden racist agenda. The fact that there were theories trying to "de-africanize" the history of the Ancient Egyptian civilization and its place in the African cultural context and ascribe it to some presumably "racially superior" population doesn't mean that the opposite theories claiming that the Ancient Egyptians were a "pure black" folk are necessarily correct.
quote:Can you therefore provide us with frescoes from Ancient Egyptian art from any period of Pharaonic civilization which depict Ancient Egyptians that resemble the images which you posted as "their descendants."
First, it's necessary to bear in mind that the Egyptian art was not meant to be a photographically precise depiction of the reality. It was highly stylized and if it wasn't how would you explain the fact that on Ancient Egyptian artworks men are in most cases uniformly depicted as brown and women as light skinned/yellowish? Of course, there are some exceptions to this rule, but how do you explain that mostly it's just like that if the Ancient Egyptian art was so realistic, accurate and unambiguously interpretable as you seem to think?
Second, I am not sure why you have such a big problem with those photos which I posted earlier. On their artworks the Ancient Egyptians depicted themselves as black haired people with dark eyes, varying, albeit mostly "moderate", features (some with long aquiline noses, some with short ones etc.) with men being usually brown and women light skinned. Which is how could be very well described most people on those images.
In what way are the people on the following images so different from the living ones on the photos which I posted?
Or maybe they are all forgeries? Or are they also "Aamu colonialists" and not "true black Kemetians"? Or are you finally going to admit that the people of Ancient Egypt were also quite diverse?
There is also one big problem in your argumentation, consisting in the idea that if the phenotype of the people living in a certain area somehow changed during a long period of time, the current population must be necessarily of foreign descent. However, this presumed difference might be just a result of a foreign admixture and not a replacement. So even if the modern population of Egypt looks different from their Ancient predecessors, they still largely descend from them and therefore can rightly claim their civilization as their heritage, unlike some American person like you. Or are you an Egyptian-American?
And of course, you still haven't answered my question, which is:
how do you know what the people in the area of Beni Suef or el Minya looked like in 3000 or 2000 BC. ? Posted by NonProphet (Member # 17745) on :
^ Caipira,
You're wasting your time with the most Senior ES troll. Wally aka Billy Gambela is not open to reason or evidence. The dumb and deluded doesn't know the difference between ancestors and cousins.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira:
quote:Originally posted by Wally: Say Caipira, check this out: ...Egypt had always been recognized as a Negro country...This opinion did not change until the day it was recognized that Egypt was the Mother of all civilization. The eyesight suddenly improved and it was possible to distinguish, on the frescoes where everyone had previously recognized Negroes, evidences of a "white race with red skin," a "white race with dark red skin," a "white race with black skin." But they never distinguished as Egyptians, a white race with white skin.
-C.A. Diop
Well, I am sorry, but this quote doesn't really prove anything, since it's based just on a flawed logic and unsubstantiated claims. By whom had been Egypt "always recognized as a black country"? Did the Romans, who ruled Egypt for over 650 years, refer to its people as "black"?...
First off, this idiot doesn't know what a fresco is - it's a mural dummy; then he proceeds to display statuary, the first three clearly fakes/altered; of the few they have which they always display...
but let us cut to the chase...
All those who recognized Ancient Egypt as a Negro country:
The Ancient Egyptians
The Ancient Greeks: Herodotus Aristotle Lucian Apollodorus Aeschylus
The Ancient Romans: Strabo Diodorus of Sicily Diogenes Laertius Ammanius Marcellinus
The Christian Bible
The Kebra Nagast (Ethiopian bible)
The Tanakh (Torah)
The Koran
France : Count Constatine de Volney Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes"
England: EW Budge (finally, reluctantly) - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities, British Museum"
<><><>
All those who say that the Ancient Egyptians were not Black folks:
( Ta Ha/Surah 20 ( Allah greets Moses ("Prince of Egypt") in the valley of Tuwa and shows ( Moses two tokens (i.e., signs):
(1) Turning Moses' staff into a serpent (2) Turning Moses' hand white
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by NonProphet: ^ Caipira,
You're wasting your time with the most Senior ES troll. Wally aka Billy Gambela is not open to reason or evidence. The dumb and deluded doesn't know the difference between ancestors and cousins.
Well, I am also under the impression that to argue with "Wally" doesn't really make much sense. He seems to have a set of preconceived notions about Ancient Egypt, which he doesn't really wish to discuss in a normal, civilized and constructive way. But after all, I think that anybody, who reads this forum and doesn't have an acute need to lift his ego by claiming an ancient civilization from the other side of the world as his people's heritage, can judge the strength of each side's arguments and come to his own conclusion. The words speak for themselves Posted by NonProphet (Member # 17745) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira: Each of these videos was made by young Egyptians and taken in one Upper Egyptian Governorate. They show very well the diversity of Upper Egyptian phenotypes and also the traditional life in this fascinating region:
Any intelligent person can see the difference between modern Egyptians and AA minus the European DNA -
Self Hatred is a serious AfroNazi disease. Wally's ancestors worshiped their Yoruban and Bantu ancestors not by hijacking AE.
Posted by Caipira (Member # 18222) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: First off, this idiot doesn't know what a fresco is - it's a mural dummy; then he proceeds to display statuary, the first three clearly fakes/altered; of the few they have which they always display...
but let us cut to the chase...
All those who recognized Ancient Egypt as a Negro country:
The Ancient Egyptians
The Ancient Greeks: Herodotus Aristotle Lucian Apollodorus Aeschylus
The Ancient Romans: Strabo Diodorus of Sicily Diogenes Laertius Ammanius Marcellinus
The Christian Bible
The Kebra Nagast (Ethiopian bible)
The Tanakh (Torah)
The Koran
France : Count Constatine de Volney Marius Fontanes - "Les Egyptes"
England: EW Budge (finally, reluctantly) - "Keeper of the Egyptian and Assyrian Antiquities, British Museum"
( Ta Ha/Surah 20 ( Allah greets Moses ("Prince of Egypt") in the valley of Tuwa and shows ( Moses two tokens (i.e., signs):
(1) Turning Moses' staff into a serpent (2) Turning Moses' hand white
I think that at this point you have already pretty much discredited yourself Wally. You haven't answered any of my questions and childish name calling is not going to help you win this "debate" (in this case a real euphemism, unfortunately...).
Anyway, I checked the available information about the statues and Nefertiti's bust and there is no "clear" or convincing proof for your thesis that they are fakes or "altered". Is a paranoid rejecting of an evidence against your claims the best you can do? And why you - apparently - consider frescos to be more credible than other types of artworks such as statues and busts, where individual features can be depicted with much greater deal of plasticity and accuracy? In any case, you have been clearly unable to refute the fact that to find ancient Egyptian artworks portraying individuals similar to your so-called "Syrian Egyptians" is no big problem.
As for your list of works allegedly describing Ancient Egyptians as Diop's "Negroes", in fact, they do not. The Ancient Greeks and Romans always distinguished between the Egyptians and black Sub-Saharan populations which they called collectively "Aithiopoi" or "Aethiopi". There is no ancient source describing Egyptians and Nubians, for example, as looking identical (on the other there are some which describe the Egyptians as being similar to Northern Indians) and if you consider the reference of Herodotus about the Egyptians being melanchroiês as a proof of their blackness, then you also have to come to the conclusion that the ancestors of Georgians (Colchis), also described as being melanchroiês, were black or that the famous Odysseus was also a "Negroe".
For further study I recommend you to read the texts about this topic found on the following websites:
As for the Tanakh and the Christian Bible, there is no need to cite them as two separate books, since the Tanakh is actually included in the Christian Bible and as far as I know there is no mention of the Egyptians being black in it.
The Qur'an also doesn't say anything about this matter and the information about the of Moses (who was not an Egyptian, but your "Aamu colonialist" to begin with) turning white as a miracle of God doesn't mean that it was black before that. And as a work composed by a person who had never been to Egypt in his life the Qur'an has hardly any relevance as a reliable source of information about the Ancient Egyptians and their appearance.
As for Kebra Nagas, you didn't post any quotes so it's hard to tell what exactly you mean, but in any case the book is a late medieval work so again it is no reliable source of information about the given topic.
Count Constatine de Volney and Marius Fontanes are modern age authors and the Egyptian population they described (no matter how) was already identical with the contemporary one, so just these two accounts hardly constitute any proof for Diop's claim that until certain point Egypt "had always been recognized as a Negro country" or that it really was in any point of time.
And of course, there is still your Nemesis:
how do you know what the people in the area of Beni Suef or el Minya looked like in 3000 or 2000 BC. ?
However, just to make things clear, I am really not going to waste my time with you anymore if you are unable to debate in a civilized way and not to dodge the questions you have been asked.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
quote:Originally posted by Caipira: However, just to make things clear, I am really not going to waste my time with you anymore if you are unable to debate in a civilized way and not to dodge the questions you have been asked.
You're not going to stop responding here since it is your purpose to insinuate your Stormfront/Matilda distortions of reality into this forum. Since you will not search this forum which deals with all of the issues you raised; here's our 'Egyptsearch digest':
The KJV Bible And the sons of Ham; Cush (Sudan), and Mizraim (Egypt), and Phut (East Africa), and Canaan (Palestine). And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD. And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Genesis 10:6-10
And they (the sons of Judah upon entering Canaan) found fat pasture and good, and the land was wide, and quiet, and peaceable; for they of Ham had dwelt there of old. (Perhaps why the biblical curse on Canaan was invoked, for the Asiatics had long coveted this land.) I Chronicles 4:40
Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham...They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt; wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red Sea. Psalms 105:23...106:21-22
And the lord said, like as my servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot three years for a sign and wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia. For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. Isaiah 20:3...43:3
And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down. Ezekial 30:4
(Pharaoh's daughter) I am black, (and) comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon. Song of Solomon 1
Ethiopia and Egypt were her strength and it was infinite. Nahum 3:9
Kebra Nagast (Ethiopian bible - "The Glory of Kings") Solomon has taken a wife not of his color, who is moreover black, for he has married the daughter of Pharaoh.
The Greek Chronicles
Herodotus Origins of the Oracle of Dodona
At Dodona, however, the priestesses who deliver the oracles have a different version of the story: two black doves (δύο πελειάδας μελαίνας ), they say, flew away from Thebes in Egypt, and one of them alighted at Dodona, the other in Libya (Africa)...The story which the people of Dodona tell about the doves came, I should say, from the fact that the women were foreigners, whose language sounded to them like the twittering of birds...As to the bird being black, they merely signify by this that the woman was Egyptian. -book II
Colchians are of Egyptian Descent
But it is undoubtedly a fact that the Colchians are of Egyptian descent...My own idea on the subject was based on the fact that they have black skins and wooly hair...and secondly, and more especially, on the fact that the Colchians, the Egyptians, and the Ethiopians are the only races which from ancient times have practiced circumcision. -book II
<><><>
Note: In 522-443, a Greek poet named Pindar described the Colchians, whom Jason and the Argonauts fought, as being "dark skinned". Then around 350 to 400 AD, Church father St. Jerome and Sophronius refered to Colchis as the "second Ethiopia" because of its black population.
[ This information taken from: Patrick T. English, Cushites, Colchians, and Khazars, Journal of Near Eastern Studies, vol 18, Jaunuary - October 1959, p. 53. ]
Moreover, a black Colchian writer, historian, and ethnographer, Dmitri Gulia (1874-1960) asserted that his peoples heritage stemed from Sesostris. He published a book called, History of Abkhazia, which shows that the black Colchian people of Southern Russia were really an Abyssinian people of Egypt. he proves this by putting together a vast array of Abkhazian words that matched that of ancient Egypts. He also chronicles "family names, names of rivers and mountains, anems of pre-Christian deities, )and much more." (Poe, 58)
Aristotle Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as can be seen from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two -Physiognomy, 6
Diodorus
Origins of the Egyptians
The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians are one of their colonies, which was led into Egypt by Osiris. They claim that at the beginning of the world Egypt was simply a sea but that the Nile, carrying down vast quantities of loam from Ethiopia in its flood waters, finally filled it in and made it part of the continent...They add that the Egyptians have received from them, as from authors and their ancestors, the greater part of their laws. -Universal History, book III
Colossi of Memnon These are two colossal seated statues of Pharaoh Amenhotep III in western Thebes. At dawn, the northern statue emitted a whistling sound. Ancient Greeks who visited the statue called it the 'vocal Memnon', thinking the figure represented the Homeric character Memnon, singing to his mother Eos, the goddess of the dawn.
Memnon was an Ethiopian king who went to troy to help Priam, his uncle, and was killed by Achilles.
To the Ancient Greeks; Egyptian - Ethiopian = same thing. ...
Posted by Neferet (Member # 17109) on :
I do have a Hebrew copy of the bible that states the Egyptians were black (dark-skinned), and ugly. I will try to scan/copy it to show this.
Posted by Neferet (Member # 17109) on :
Here is my old copy of The Soncino Chumash - Pentateuch - Torah (The Five Books of Moses) with the statement about the Egyptians. I know it doesn't prove much but, it surprised me when I read it a very long time ago. Read at 11. Egypt.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
^ That the Hebrews considered the Egyptians to be darker-skinned is especially significant because the Hebrews themselves, as Palestinians, would have been quite dark by European standards. I'd love to see Caipera explain that.
Posted by Neferet (Member # 17109) on :
You are absolutely correct!
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ That the Hebrews considered the Egyptians to be darker-skinned is especially significant because the Hebrews themselves, as Palestinians, would have been quite dark by European standards. I'd love to see Caipera explain that.
Posted by Just call me Jari (Member # 14451) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ That the Hebrews considered the Egyptians to be darker-skinned is especially significant because the Hebrews themselves, as Palestinians, would have been quite dark by European standards. I'd love to see Caipera explain that.
Caipera is not saying the Egyptians were not Dark he is saying that Wally is selecting Images of Egyptians from Luxor-Aswan and not including other Egyptians from the cities he posted and Wally seems to be doing a Reverse Brown Paper Bag test...If you are too light then you are not a "Pure" Egyptian by his standards which is excatly what Euronuts.
I doubt Caipera's Egyptians are seen as white or lightskinned.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
I have been analyzing Wally's posts. Earlier I had not noticed some that I thought were Wally's were actually KING's.
I have discovered what I think is a difference between Wally's Upper Egyptians: Purest descendants of the Pharaohs and KING's Upper Egyptians: Purest descendants of the Pharaohs
______________________________________
KING:
The Upper Egyptians, the purest descendants of the Pharaohs include people with kinky and straight hair
______________________________________
WALLY:
The Upper Egyptians, the purest descendants of the Pharaohs include NO people with straight hair
________________________________________
Wally correct me if I am wrong but that is what investigation uncovered
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
To hell with all of the "dancing around Harry's barn" and evading the central, most explicit and significant truth...
Deal with this, if you can...
How the Ancient Egyptians described themselves Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
If Kammau referred to skin color and not the soil of the Nile, the Egyptians would have also called the Kushites Kammau or some 'khom'(kam.m) related word.
But they did not.
This is a little off topic thought. The topic of this thread photos that are supposed to be of Upper Egyptians: Purest descendants of the Pharaohs.
How would you determine that? By looking. Looking at what you have selected you seem to be of the opinion that no ancient Egyptians had straight hair. Perhaps you can go into the mdr ntr and find out what Budge, I mean the Kammau said about this.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
the lioness,
You try desperately to twist truth and logic in order to make them conform to your own
ideology...
quote:
you wrote
If Kammau referred to skin color and not the soil of the Nile, the Kememous would
have also called the Kushites Kammau or some 'khom'(kam.m) related word.
But they did not.
This bogus and illogical argument atempts to ignore the human historical reality of
ethnic exclusivity.
a) The Ancient Kememou also referred to themselves as 'Rome.t' which means 'the Men'/
'the People' - they were aware that there were other nations of men/people on earth...
b) The 'Eskimo' consist of Inuit, Inupiat, Yupik, and Alutiit, each of which is a regional variant
meaning "the people" or "the real people."
c) The Oromo of Ethiopia; Oromo is derived from 'orma' - person to 'oromo' - people; hence
'the People'
d) "Britain" from a Celtic word, Pritani, "painted people/men"; and of course, the Brits weren't the
only ones in the world who used body paint and tattoos...
e) In Swazi we have this expression "Iliso Lesizwe Esimnyama" or "Eye of the Black Nation";
Swaziland "-the Black Nation", floating in a sea of Black nations--
and the Ancient Kememou and the Swazis weren't the only cultures to refer to themselves as 'the
Black Nation'
quote:
you also wrote
How would you determine that? By looking. Looking at what you have selected you seem to be
of the opinion that no ancient Kememous had straight hair. Perhaps you can go into the mdr ntr
and find out what Budge, I mean the Kammau said about this.
a) Straight hair of the European or Asian type was not a charecteristic of the Kememou;
which isn't to say that there were no foreign elements living in Kemet; this ancient Metropole
attracted many foreigners from the northern countries; who were generally confined to
restricted settlements in the delta (ghettos).
b) In the Mdu Ntr, we have words such as "napy" and "Nebt" to describe the kinky/wooly
hair of the Kememou; they also had the "afro" comb, the "hot" comb, the "African Shea Butter
melt" process - where you place a large quantity of butter on your head, which the sun then
melts...
Kememou artwork invariably depicts shiny black hair. No other color is depicted except in
association with a foreigner. (Asiatic men, in particular, are usually depicted with full facial hair
and unruly brownish hair on their heads, presumably to show how little they conform to
c) Among many Kememou, there was little need for this...
like this young Somali...
...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: [QB] the lioness,
You try desperately to twist truth and logic in order to make them conform to your own
ideology...
[QUOTE]
you wrote
If Kammau referred to skin color and not the soil of the Nile, the Kememous would
have also called the Kushites Kammau or some 'khom'(kam.m) related word.
But they did not.
This bogus and illogical argument atempts to ignore the human historical reality of
ethnic exclusivity.
a) The Ancient Kememou also referred to themselves as 'Rome.t' which means 'the Men'/
'the People' - they were aware that there were other nations of men/people on earth...
Swaziland "-the Black Nation", floating in a sea of Black nations--
and the Ancient Kememou and the Swazis weren't the only cultures to refer to themselves as 'the
Black Nation' [/b]
quote:
The Kemeou had an exclusive sense of nationalism and association with extensive farming the black soil of the Nile. You can't prove what you are saying about the Kememou and ethnicity and it is a theory that has no consistency in terms of classifying Egyptians classifying people by color which they did not. At term like "the black nation" can be applied exclusively as a phrase containing two words, don't get it twisted, that does not mean that the word for "black" could not be applied to a person of another nation. Also color categorization makes no logical sense unless you are neighboring other people who are not "black". Even if you had an exclusive word for black when used for your own nation, if it was the practice of a given culture to categorize people by color there would be a second word for black that would be used to describe people of a dark color who wer not of that nation, for example the Kushites who were in fact "blacker" than the Egyptians. Your only source is a dictionary and in that dictionary it is unclear what the association of the color black is to the Kememou. Of course you fail to mention that in that dictionary of your namesake Wally Budge he lists a word for negro: "nuhes". But you would never post that page. The Kem derivative is not exclusive to the Kememou. As you have frequently listed, it is used in a lot of words. Your logic is off in a number of ways. The Egyptians did not classify people according to skin colors. This is where you are fundamentally wrong and your logic off. They classified people by nationality.
That's different from America for example, where people have, in additional to being classified by nationality have a tradition of classifying people by color. In America calling people black or white is standard practice. But the Egyptians did not associate people with the words they used for colors.
Not so many years ago in America as well as calling people "black" or "white" many Americans called Asians "yellow", Native Indians "red" and Hispanics "brown"
The Egyptians had words for color. But they did not apply them to each of the different regional groups people (any actually) groups such as we often see looking different in numerous wall paintings, Table of Nations and so on (which you corrupted by substituting the word for "race" a concept unknown to the AEs). You can't escape that Wally your logic has been proven to be in flagrant error.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
the lioness,
...you are stubbornly ignorant and in total denial...
Here's another hieroglyph for you to rationalize into some other 'meaning'
note that the word 'kem' or 'black' is also a femine plural 'ut' and it is the determinative which tells us 'black' what? :
now if we change the determinative to
then and ONLY then do we get 'black irrigated land/soil', and so on and so on... . . .
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
...like this determinatve here
means that "Kem - niut is a word which means "Black villages/towns/communities (ie., Nation)"
note the highlighted hieroglyph (and the one directly on the right) which reads "Kemu.t" which is plural and confirms "Black villages/towns/communities (ie., Nation)"... Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
ausar , Moderator; posted 16 June, 2006
quote: There are similarities between ancient Egypt and modern Egypt in the folk customs of the rural Egyptians in both Lower and Upper Egypt. Actually, Hawass in a interview said the following about connections between ancient and modern Egyptians:
NOVA: Do most Egyptians today feel an ancestral link to the ancient Egyptians?
Hawass: Of course, because we are the descendants of the pharaohs. If you look at the faces of the people of Upper Egypt, the relationship between modern and ancient Egypt is very clear. Habits in the villages, our celebrations when we finish a project, are similar to what they had in ancient Egypt. After someone dies, we make a celebration after 40 days, just like the ancient Egyptians did during the mummification process. Everything in our lives is like ancient Egypt.
Not that I endorce everything Hawass does or says but he sometimes gets things right. **He is definitely wrong when he said that ancient Egypt did not have an African origin or was distinct from Africa.
In terms of phenotype I agree that most modern Egyptians are quite different than the ancient Egyptians. Modern Egyptians are comprised of many mixtures of people that came in and out of ancient Kmt. Most people tend to focus primiarly on the Arab elements being the most common but the truth is modern Egyptians probably have more Mameluke, Turkish, Greek, Berber and Armenian ancestry than Arabic. Remember Hawass is just giving his opinions on the matters and his job is simply to safeguard the pyramids and the antiquities of ancient Egypt.
The following article mentions that Omar Sharif is an ethnic Egyptian when in reality he is an ethnic transplant from Lebanon. His family is of Lebanese origin not Egyptian.
---
**(my comment) - because his family is allegedly of Lebanese origin?
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
The photos of those in Benu Suef are of upper egyptians Wally u cant pick and choose which ones u consider upper egyptians and which ones are not according to your skin color game.
Sorry to tell u but most of all those pictures that Caipari posted are all upper egyptian natives from different tribes.
I can see that none of u even understand arabic let alone have any of u understood what Muhammed Arabi the Native egyptian said not all those Saeedi or Fellahin are native true egyptians not even all of those in upper egypt.
Posted by Wally (Member # 2936) on :
Your moniker;
AswaniAswad = Black man (from) Aswan (Upper Egypt)
contradicts your muddled statements; hell man, there are Upper Egyptians who are Italian! --would you go to Zimbabwe, take pictures of White Zimbabweans, and then proclaim them to be the descendants of the Great Zimbabwean culture??
Egypt has been colonized, settled by many more foreigners (ie, non-Black folks) than has Zimbabwe, yet you want to pretend that this never happened...Jeez
Posted by AswaniAswad (Member # 16742) on :
Im not disagreeing with anything u are saying wally.
I beleive the true egyptians were true africans in th sense of african today Aswad period.
Thank u Wally i just wanted u to say that not all upper egyptians are native some are not even egyptian thank u
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