I traced it down to a Petrie quote that is currently only availabe on Myra's website..
"Ancestry of Senusert. In the tomb of prince Uah-ka B at Qau, in an inner chamber, is painted a scene of the son of Uah-ka, named Senusert; there is no cartouche. As the Uah-ka family were of about the 4th or 5th dynasty (the name being unknown either in the 11th of the 12th dynasty), this implies that the 12th dynasty Senusert family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. The separate identification of these sphinxes follows further on. The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho. Waka is the god of the Gallas." (Petrie, W.M.F., The Making of Egypt, 1939, p. 126)
Ive Also Tracked down Uha-ka's apperant tomb at qua
anyway my question is in relation to this quote from you...
What to some may seem very ironic is that the name Senwosret comes from the Uahka family. This Theban family can be traced back to the 6th dynasty. At that time they were architects who built temples near Abydos at Qua. That the Uahka were of Nhsyw origins us attested by their burial tombs. The design is unknown in Kmt but common in Kesh. The pharaoh of the famous conquest stele labeling Nhsyw cowards yet fearful of them taking over the land bit by bit was Senwosret III himself of Nhsy ancestry!
1) Were the Uha-ka originally Architects(that would be awesome) any literary sources that can confirm that??
2) Is there any literary or pictorial sources that describe the "Graves attributed to the Uah-Ka" that links them to Ta-Seti.
So far I found info from the "Prophecy of Neferti" and the fact that Amenemhet the Founder of the 12thy Dynasty was from Upper Egyptian/Ta Seti Origin but not Royal Blood.
"He Seems to have risen from humble parents. An Inscription from Karnak records a "God's Father" Senusret a commoner as the father of Amenemhet; his Mother, Nefert come from the Area of Elephantine(Ta-Seti/Nehesi(My Words!!) Amenemhet was thus of Upper Egyptian origin and his religious allegence to the god Amun"-Chronicle of the Pharoahs Peter A. Clayton pg 78
So Im guessing his connection to Uah-ka was through his father Senusret??
But the Petrie quote is confusing me it says that Senusret the Father of Amenemhet was the link to Uha-Ka...
but he(Amenemhet) marries a Heiress of Uha-Ka??
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Due to Jari's continued interest in the Uahka family I am pleased to have found and now to share the following source (Petrie) used by my source (Phaon Goldman: Black Manhood, 1974) going back to my very first week at ES AE&E.
[ . . . . ] Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Kesh was intertwined with Kmt as both shared a joint ethnic origin in prehistory. For the Kmtyw, Amami, the ancestral Godland was to the south and Kesh stood in between. Because of an especially holy site at the 4th cataract a few individual Nhsyw families had a certain claim to rulership over all Ta Akht.
What to some may seem very ironic is that the name Senwosret comes from the Uahka family. This Theban family can be traced back to the 6th dynasty. At that time they were architects who built temples near Abydos at Qau. That the Uahka were of Nhsyw origins is attested by their burial tombs. The design is unknown in Kmt but common in Kesh. The pharaoh of the famous conquest stele labeling Nhsyw cowards yet fearful of them taking over the land bit by bit was Senwosret III, himself of Nhsy ancestry!
But which ethny of Nehesi in particular?
Petrie thought the 12th dynasty was founded by Galla. I don't know if he means the Oromo or if he means the Shangalla.
quote:The Galla Penetration. It has long ago been remarked that the black sphinxes, later appropriated by the Hyksos, approximated to the Galla type of Abyssinia.
. . . .
This starts an enquiry how the Galla connection could thus appear on monuments. In the clearance and planning of the rock tombs at Qau, Antaeopolis, the peculiar plan of those tombs, with great halls and small chambers annexed, was observed to be closely parallel to that of later Nubian temples. In both tomb and temple the chief work is in the solid rock, while the forecourt is of masonry constructed in front of it. Another peculiarity was the hammer-work excavation of one tomb, which had evidently been done with stone balls, as in the Aswan granite working, and this implies a southern connection.
. . . .
Ancestry of Senusert. In the tomb of prince Uah-ka B at Qau, in an inner chamber, is painted a scene of the son of Uah-ka, named Senusert; there is no cartouche. As the Uah-ka family were of about the 4th or 5th dynasty (the name being unknown either in the 11th of the 12th dynasty), this implies that the 12th dynasty Senusert family descended from the Uah-ka family. Here we have, then, a link between the Galla type on the sphinxes and the 12th dynasty. The separate identification of these sphinxes follows further on. The 12th dynasty was undoubtedly descended from Amenemhat, the great vizier of the 11th dynasty. It seems, then, that he married the heiress of the Uah-ka family, as stated in the pseudo-prophecy, "A king shall come from the south whose name is Ameny, son of a Nubian woman." She called her son by the family name Senusert, and he was the founder of the 12th dynasty, according to Manetho. Waka is the god of the Gallas.
The Uahka werent the only family nor the 12th the only dynasty of Nhsw influence from origins in Kesh.
There was an intimate if exploitive sibling relationship between T3Wy and Kesh. Brothers veigh for dominance one over the other yet they remain the same family. Still there are differences between even identical twin brothers. Egypt embraced writing while Kesh eschewed it for the longest time and Egypt did rank Kesh among the Nine Bows clear until late New Kingdom times.
The important thing to remember is that certain Keshite families always, since the foundation of the Dynastic period, had a right to the throne of T3Wy because of their noble status in Gebel Barkal the prime residence of Amun the father of legitimacy to rulership.
Gebel Barkal was way up south at the fourth cataract. Yet it was the seat of Amun and pharoanic legitimacy. Among others too numerous to list
Zanakht of dynatsy 3 was a Nehasi
the 4th dynasty queen Khentkaues was of Ta Seti and she birthed the first two kings of the 5th dynasty
the Uahka family established the 12th dynasty
Senwosret or Sesostris was a common Uahka name
the name Amenhotep or Amememhet shows the Uahka connection to Amun and Gebel Barkal
Amenemhet I was vizier for Mentuhotep IV of the preceding 11th dynasty, his ancestry of and marriage in the Uahka family legitimized his natural right to the throne
the 14th dynasty's second ruler was actually named Nehesi and honored his mother Peret incorporating her name in his cartouche
Piye and the succeeding 25th dynasty are too famous to detail
the 25th dynasty was ultra orthodox reviving tradition throughout T3 Akht
in truth pharaonic Kmt ended with the 25th dynasty from Napata/Gebel Barkal
The kings of Kush were known to have a certain claim on Kmt's throne. Zanakht of the 3rd dynasty has strong Nhsw facial features. His line apparently died out. The 9th and 10th dynasty Uahka family of Thebes were buried in tombs of type unknown in Kmt but of design in Kush. The Uahka family has been traced back to the 6th dynasty builders of the temples at Qau near Abydos. Senusret is a name from the Uahka family, one of whose members took on the name Amenemhet to honor Amen the major deity of Thebes. This family established the 12th dynasty. Comparison of skull measurements reveals an exceedingly close relationship between the Uahka family and the modern Shangalla (non-Abyssinian) type of Ethiopian bordering Sudan.
Amenemhet I warred against Wawat pushing south far enough to establish a center of trade in Kerma at the 3rd catarct. Senusret I mentions the Akherkin, Kas, Khesaa, Shat, and Shemyk among the peoples of Wawat that he subdued. Senwosret III annexed Wawat up to the 2nd cataract as the southern border of Kmt.
Because of their propensities for independence the Senwosrets found it necessary to wage war against Wawat. On their defeat a string of fortresses were built. These were at Buhen, Kor, Dorginarti, Mirgissa, Dabenarti, Askut, Shalfak, Uronarti, Kumma, and Semna.
Nonetheless the kinship between the peoples of the lower and middle Nile Valleys must not be forgotten. Especially of note is the middle Nile Valley dwellers' attitude as to the status of the lower Nile Valley.
quote:... the Egyptian pharaohs of Dynasty 18 had recognized Gebel Barkal as an ancient source of Egyptian kingship and had themselves crowned there to affirm their rule, the new kings of Kush rediscovered this tradition and [] used it to prove their right to rule Egypt. Since the first to recognize the religious significance of Gebel Barkal had been the Pharoah Thutmose III (ca. 1479-1425 BC)[.]
. . . .
If [Keshites] have traditionally been portrayed by historians s "foreigners" in Egypt, they surely did not see themselves as such, despite their different ethnic, cultural and linguistic origin. In their minds Egypt and Kush were northern and southern halves of an ancient original domain of Amun. These two lands, they believed, had been united in mythological times; subsequently they grew apart, to be united again in historical times only by the greatest pharaohs. As "sons" of Amun, the Napatan monarchs saw themselves as heirs of those pharaohs [. . .] believ[ing] they were the god's representatives - from his southern sphere - chosen to unite and protect his ancient empire and to restore ma'at - "truth, order, and propriety" in the Egyptian sense - throughout the land.
It all boils down to cultural spirituality and the "kingship" deity of the matured middle and lower Nile valley in the days of empire that had been perculating since before either kingdom emerged.
I think that Gebel Barka was known to the A Group originators of the royalty concept of dynasty 0 and possibly the first attempts of state unification (judging by the finds of Qustul). I imagine the reason that certain NHHSYW females endowed their husbands or sons with a natural and undisputed right to the throne of T3Wy was because they hailed from the right family from Gebel Barkal of old from before the times of dynastic Egypt, and here's why:
quote: ... long before the Egyptians had set eyes on Gebel Barkal, the Nubians, too, had held it sacred. Although no pre-Egyptian settlement or cultic remains have yet been found there, unstratified Nubian pottery has been recovered, dating from the Neolithic, Pre-Kerma, and Kerma periods. This indicates that the site must have been occupied at least since the fourth millennium BC. The discovery on the summit of Gebel Barkal of thousands of chipped stone wasters, made of types of stones that can only be found on the desert floor, suggests that people brought stones to the summit to work them, a practice that implies a religious motivation. Likewise, the similarity between the sanctuary at Barkal, as it appeared in the Egyptian and Kushite periods, and that of Kerma, as it appeared at the end of the Classic Kerma phase, may suggest that there was a pre- Egyptian cultic connection between Gebel Barkal and the "Western Deffufa" at Kerma. There exists at least the possibility that the latter, a rectangular, brick built, mountain-like platform 19 m high, may have been built at Kerma as a magical substitute or "double" of Gebel Barkal. After all, complexes of temples were built in front of each, and each was conceived as the dwelling place of a powerful god.
There is no doubt that the Egyptians, and probably, too, the earlier Nubians, attached sacred significance to Gebel Barkal because of its bizarre form. Not only was the hill isolated on a flat desert plain and possessed of a spectacular cliff, 90 m high and 200 m long, its southwestern corner was marked by an enormous free-standing pinnacle, nearly 75 m high (fig.5). This monolith had all the appearance of a statue, but without precise form, and it could be imagined in many ways simultaneously. On the one hand, it could be seen as the figure of a standing king or god, wearing the White Crown. It could be seen as an erect phallus. It could also be seen as a rearing cobra (uraeus), wearing the White Crown. Ancient documents, both written and pictorial, reveal that the rock was imagined as all these things at once and was thus venerated as the source of the divine power of all the various things it represented. As a crowned human figure, it would have represented the living king or the ultimate royal ancestor, or the god himself. As a phallus, it would have represented Amun as father and procreator. As uraeus, it would have represented each and every goddess and all female creative power. It was thus father, mother, and royal child combined as one - which was apparently the very meaning of "Kamutef." Gebel Barkal, by means of the phallic-shaped pinnacle, not only confirmed the presence of Amun, it also had precisely the form of the Primeval Hill of Egyptian tradition, on which the Creator was thought to have appeared at the beginning of time and generated the first gods through an act of masturbation.
So as early as dynasty 3 Zanakht sits the throne.
4th dynasty queen Khentkaues births the first kings of the 5th dynasty.
In the 6th dynasty the Uahka family is building NHHSY architected tombs in T3Wy
The 12th dynasty is established by the Uahka family and kings bear the name of Amun in their own names just as Keshite kings will bear Amani names.
To my mind this shows a pre-18th dynasty affiliation of Amun among the NHHSYW most likely associated with Gebel Barkal. Where else would the prominence of Amun stem from that it was not used in T3Wy in kings' names before introduced by a dynasty of NHHSY roots?
Yet, some have still proposed Amun to have travelled in the reverse direction. from ERNEST A. WALLIS BUDGE TUTANKHAMEN AMENISM, ATENISM AND EGYPTIAN MONOTHEISM New York: Dodd, Mead & Co. 1923 Chap 2 TUTANKHAMEN AND THE CULT OF AMEN http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/tut/tut05.htm
quote: THE early history of the god Amen is somewhat obscure, and his origin is unknown. The name Amen means "hidden (one)," a title which might be applied to many gods. A god Amen and his consort Ament or Amenit are mentioned in the Pyramid Texts (UNAS, line 558), where they are grouped with Nau and Nen, and with the two Lion gods Shu and Tefnut. This Amen was regarded as an ancient nature-god by the priests of Heliopolis under the Vth dynasty, and it is possible that many of his attributes were transferred at a very early period to Amen, the great god of Thebes. Though recent excavations have shown that a cult of Amen existed at Thebes under the Ancient Empire, it is doubtful if it possessed any more than a local importance until the XIIth dynasty. When the princes of Thebes conquered their rivals in the north and obtained the sovereignty of Egypt, their god Amen and his priesthood became a great power in the land, and an entirely new temple was built by them, in his honour, at Karnak on the right bank of the Nile. The temple was quite small, and resembled in form and arrangement some of the small Nubian temples; it consisted of a shrine, with a few small chambers grouped about it, and a forecourt, with a colonnade on two sides of it. Amen was not the oldest god worshipped there, and his sanctuary seems to have absorbed the shrine of the ancient goddess Apit. ...
Although the kings of the XIIth dynasty were Thebans it is possible that they and many of their finest warriors had Sudani blood in their veins, and the attributes that they ascribed to Amen were similar to those that the Nubian peoples assigned to their indigenous gods. To them Amen symbolized the hidden but irresistible power that produces conception and growth in human beings and in the animal and vegetable worlds. And in some places in Egypt, and Nubia and the Oases, the symbol of the god Amen was either the umbilicus 1 or the gravid womb. The symbol of Amen that was shown to Alexander the Great, when he visited the temple of Jupiter Ammon in the Oasis of Siwah, was an object closely resembling the umbilicus, and it was inlaid with emeralds (turquoises?) and other precious stones--umbilico maxime similis est habitus, smaragdo et gemmis coagmentatus.
Despite the fact of the relative obscurity of Amen before the Uahka family's 12th dynasty boosting of his importance and the "Nubian" style temple devoted to him, the author of the above states that Egypt carrried Amun into "Nubia."
But that shouldn't be the last word and prime thought left in mind by this post.
While Egyptians did in fact rule over Wawat and even Kush, no Egyptian ever sat astride the throne of Kush. To the contrary Kushites sat on the Amun Seat both in Kush and in Egypt and their empire extended over more Nile and Rift valleys territory than perhaps even did Egypt.
As long as we continue employing the misnomer "Nubian" projected in the current literature a certain of confusion will remain in understanding mdw ntr texts. We must use the specific terms as they are in the primary sources.
If memory serves me correctly the following quote is from one of the original Sesotris:
quote: "The Nubian has but to hear (a sound) and he falls at a voice, it is merely answering him that makes him retreat; if one is agressive against him he turns tail, retreat and he becomes more aggressive. they are certainly not people to be respected: they are craven wretches. My majesty has seen them-it is not a lie."
This pharaoh is talking about his military expeditions against Wawat. Before the unification of the Two Lands, Wawat ruled up to Nag el Hasaya in what would later be the 2nd nome of Upper Egypt (Heru's Throne) immediately north of the 1st nome TaSeti.nwt. So we see there was intense rivalry between TaWy and TaSeti.x3st since predynastic times.
As we progress into the earliest dynastic era a cultural demarcation begins to distinguish the two peoples. KM.t embraced writing while TaSeti and Kesh to the south of it did not.
Getting back to the author of the above quoted inscription Sesostris III wrote it after retaking Buhen fortress. Late in 5th dynasty times Wawat took over Buhen fortress, built in the 4th dynasty by Snefru, and held it until the 12th dynasty when Sesostris took it and pillaged pastoral populations to its south. In the very next dynasty (13th) Kesh took it over holding it until the 18th dynasty.
With all this in mind we can see Sesostris III's boasts are just that, political hype. During the first 14 dynasties of its history that though TaWy built Buhen fortress (exchange place or trade center) Nehesis controlled it for 11 dynasties.
Then too in order to understand Sesostris III implied no "racial" proclivities we need to know his ancestral antecedents. We'll examine that next.
PT 2
Sesostris III (also transliterated as Senusret and Senwosret) was a 12th dynasty ruler. Senusret is a name from the Uahka family, one of whose members took on the name Amenemhet to honor Amen the major deity of Thebes in KM.t and Gebel Barkal deep in Kwsh. The 9th and 10th dynasty Uahka family of Thebes were buried in tombs of type unknown in KM.t but of design in Kush. The Uahka family has been traced back to the 6th dynasty builders of the temples at Qau near Abydos. This family established the 12th dynasty.
Amenemhet I started the 12th dynasty. He was vizier to Mentuhotep IV last pharaoh of dynasty 11. Amenemhet came to rule relying on a certain claim of ancestry and marriage as his right to attain to the rulership. The rulers of Kush were known to have a certain claim on KM.t's throne. This claim grew from the interdependencies between the two nations of KM.t and Kesh having to do with princes and princesses from Kush attending the Kmty court and marrying court members. Amenemhet records a "prophecy" foretelling his upcomance.
quote: provided by Wally (clickable link please go and read it) nswt pw r iyt n rsy imny mAa xrw rn.f sA Hmt pw n tA sty ms pw n Xn nxn iw.f r Ssp HDt iw.f r wTs dSrt iw.f smA sxmty iw.f r sHtp nbwy m mrt.sn pXr iHy m xfa wsr m nwd
There is a king who will come from the south Ameny true of voice is his name. He is the son of a woman of the Land of the Bow, he is a child of the Heartland of Nekhen. He will take up the White Crown, he will raise up the Red Crown, he will unite the Two Mighty Goddesses, he will appease the Two Lord Gods, with what they desire. The field circuit is in his grasp, the oar in the jump.
Amenemhet I warred against Wawat pushing south far enough to establish a center of trade in Kerma at the 3rd cataract. Senusret I mentions the Akherkin, Kas, Khesaa, Shat, and Shemyk among the peoples of Wawat that he subdued. Senwosret III annexed Wawat up to the 2nd cataract as the southern border of KM.t.
Because of their propensities for independence the Senwosrets found it necessary to wage war against Wawat. On their defeat a string of fortresses were built. These were at Buhen, Kor, Dorginarti, Mirgissa, Dabenarti, Askut, Shalfak, Uronarti, Kumma, and Semna. They were to prevent passage of any Nhsw downriver including shipping, caravan, or pastoral transhumants. Clearly these people were a serious force to be reckoned with and not the cowards Senwosret's boasts paint them to be. Even their merchants and cattlemen were feared as capable of successfully confronting Kmtw authority.
It seems that Kush at Kerma and above was the seat of Kmt's fear of adversarial threat from the south. And it was from there indeed that by 16th dynasty times Nhsw politcal intrigue held one third rulership over Egypt. In the words of the ruler at Thebes:
quote:"a chieftain is in Avaris and another in Kush: I sit united with an Aamy and a Nhsy, each man in possession of his slice of this Egypt."
PT 3
The phrase Kush khesyt cited ad nausea has been blown far out of proportion. An obvious play on word sounds it means defeated more so than it connotes concepts of contempt. But talk of wretched or vile Kush is irrelevant in understanding how Kmt viewed her southern neighbors and kinsmen. In war talk what enemies aren't described with deprecations? To the contrary we can see that certain families of Kush had a right to the throne of Kmt that was considered the most legitimate of all harking back to the original western (Greek) notion that Egypt originated when Aithiopians settled downriver.
quote:Originally posted by Yonis:
quote:Originally written by Donald Redford: "Kush is usually said to be 'weak/vile' ...
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Wow, Al all I gotta say is big ups to you man for real. All this info answers my questions on Uha-ka origins, who they were and also gives a good image of the Nehesi style Rock Cut tombs.
Seems they were Princes and Royals and their tombs represent a style foreign in design to typical Egyptian designs.
I have some info saved up that I will present soon...Good stuff.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I concur! It took me a while to read all this but now I can say my understanding of the 9th to 12th dynasties is about complete, especially with the politics of those times. Anymore info would be welcome!
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Ok here is the info I found, Ill add it here for everyone to to take in..
The rock-cut tombs of Qau el-Kebir are the largest private monuments of the Middle Kingdom (about 2025-1700 BC). The tombs are heavily destroyed, but the finds show that the decoration and equipment of the tombs must have been of the highest quality (reliefs, statues, sarcophagi). Through the destruction and through the repetition of names (Wah-ka, Ibu) the succession of the tomb owners is still under discussion, but the larger tombs clearly date to the Twelfth Dynasty. The dating of the latest tomb is of importance for understanding developments at the end of the Twelfth Dynasty in the Egyptian provinces. At other places the rock-cut tombs of the governors disappear under Senusret III. Steckeweh 1936: 8 presented evidence (a stela with the name of Amenemhat III and the name of Wah-ka II) to date Wah-ka II (who owns the biggest tomb of all) under this king.
The Tomb of Wahka I (A): landscape view and its interior
The Tomb of Ibu
I believe the following is the Tomb from the Image provided by Altakruri
On the east bank of the Nile, midway between the towns of Akhmim and Asyut, is the necropolis and town-site of ancient Tjebu, a town, once capital of the 12th Upper Egyptian Nome and known in Graeco-Roman times as Antaeopolis.
A large limestone temple still existed at Antaeopolis in the 18th century and was noted in the ‘Description de l’Egypte’ before being swept away by a series of Nile floods in the early part of the 19th century. Remaining blocks from the temple were subsequently removed for the construction of the Asyut palace of Ibrahim Pasha. The temple, dedicated to the god Anty, was built from limestone blocks by Ptolemy IV Philopator and Arsinoe and enlarged by Ptolemy VI Philometor. A large brick enclosure wall surrounded the temple, which measured 45m by 60m. Surviving structures include a granite naos from the sanctuary, which was fronted by a pronaos containing eighteen palm columns. The temple façade contained a lintel with a Greek dedication by Ptolemy VI and Cleopatra.
Near to Qaw el-Kebir, on the eastern edge of the desert are the ruins of a smaller mudbrick temple dating to the New Kingdom which was built over an older First Intermediate Period structure. The temple contains an altar court and two sanctuary chambers at the rear.
1 Statue fragment from the Tomb of Wahka II, Provincial Governor of Qaw. (Museo Egizio, Turin) 2 Limestone head of a monumental statue of Ibu, an important member of the family of provincial governors. From Qaw el-Kebir. (Museo Egizio, Turin)
The necropolis at Qaw el-Kebir (often called Qaw, or Qau) contains tombs ranging in date from the Prehistoric (Naqada Period) right through to Roman times scattered throughout several cemetery areas. Petrie directed excavations here during 1923 to 1924 and in 1925 J L Starkey found a papyrus containing the earliest known Coptic version of St John’s Gospel wrapped in a cloth and buried in a jar at the site.
The large southern cemetery at Qaw is thought to have been the necropolis of the provincial capital of Tjebu, although the Dynasty XII rulers are buried in rock-cut tombs slightly set apart from the main cemeteries on terraces in the cliffs to the north.[/b The most [b]important and most architecturally interesting of these are the tombs of the provincial governors, Wahka I (hereditary prince and mayor), Ibu, Sobekhotep and Wahka II (Mayor during the reign of Amenemhet III). The tomb structures followed the basic plan of a pyramid temple and consisted of a chapel with associated valley temple, causeway and mortuary temple.
The mortuary temple contains a limestone pylon with a columned court behind. Several porticoed terraces, connected by steep stairs, open onto a series of underground chambers, containing the sarcophagi of the nomarchs and their families. The antechambers of the tomb-chapels were originally decorated with limestone reliefs, now gone, but some of the statue chambers are still painted. Steep ramps rise from the base of the cliffs to the tombs along which the sarcophagi would have been dragged.
Isn't it something how the current up to date material on these tombs make no mention of design influences and differences.
Older material may be "out dated" but can still be incisive.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes, I've noticed that too. It's not only data on tombs but on people too. I've noticed that despite the more prevalent racial bias of older sources, there were still some data that pointed out "southern influence" whether population or cultural. Most Egyptology nowadays seem to follow a policy of silence, perhaps due to the push to acknowledge Egypt itself as African.
Also, I think by "Galla" Petrie meant Oromo. Since during his time, it was a popular trend to speculate Cushitic speakers as having more prominent range further north of their present territory. The Beja language was only recently found to be separate from the Cushitic branch.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Yes, besides the book you posted only Robert Bianchi's book on the Nubians. "Daily life of the Nubians" mentions the Nubian Rock Cut tomb architecture and how the Egyptian Speo style was first used by A Group Nubians and then brought to Egypt during the 12th Dynasty(a Dynasty linked to A Group via Ta Seti).
Even the Sites dealing with Nubia makes no mention of this.
Honestly modern Egyptology is still stuck in the 19th and 20th century. The only thing is instead now they advocate the Egyptians as defined by the Delta Egyptians created Egypt. Any Mention of Southern Influence is made Via Anthropology or Genetics/Biologists.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Isn't it something how the current up to date material on these tombs make no mention of design influences and differences.
Older material may be "out dated" but can still be incisive.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I mean Zahi Hiwass is a perfect example. His remark that the Egyptians were not Africans only proves his Ignorance on the Bio/Anthro origins of Egypt and his knee Jerk remark that they were not black based on their "Lips" and other features is obsurd.
I honestly don't see how anyone should be suprised, Egyptology is nothing but Western Think Tank to propose the Dynastic Race theory under more subtle tactics.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
and lets be clear, Zahi, Bob Brier and the others are not stupid. The same stuff we read they have read. Alot of what I posted on the Southern Origins of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 12th, and 18th plus other Dynasties come from books that most Egyptology studies would read such as "Chronicle of the Pharoahs" and books by Petrie etc. These people have seen the Images from the Tombs of the Nobles and others, these people are not stupid. Zahi knows damn well Egyptian Culture came from the South and he knows how Important the South was viewed and Held in Dynastic times, yet to keep his European and American Tourists satisfied he will claim the Egyptians are not Africans. If anything these people know MORE about Egypt's African Affinity more than we do.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Here is a good example hof how they subtly continue their agenda. On searching for a good site on Egyptian/Nubian Speos I found this..
Gebel Silsila is the name given to a rocky gorge between Kom Ombo and Edfu where the River Nile narrows and high sandstone cliffs come right down to the water’s edge. There was probably a series of rapids here in ancient times, dangerous to navigate, which naturally formed a frontier between the regions of Elephantine (Aswan) and Edfu. In Pharaonic times the river here was known as Khennui, the ‘place of rowing’. On the West bank there is a tall column of rock which has been dubbed ‘The Capstan’ because of a local legend which claims there was once a chain (Silsila in Arabic) which ran from the East to the West Banks. Arthur Weigall in his ‘Antiquities of Egypt’ states that the name Silsileh, is a Roman corruption of the original Egyptian name for the town, Khol-Khol, meaning a barrier or frontier.
It is hardly surprising that by Dynasty XVIII, travellers had developed the custom of carving small shrines into the cliffs here, dedicating them to a variety of Nile gods and to the river itself. Smaller shrines were cut by Tuthmose I, Hatshepsut and Tuthmose III, before Horemheb constructed his rock-cut temple here, then many of the Dynasty XIX or later kings left their mark in some way. Gebel Silsila became an important cult centre and each year at the beginning of the season of inundation offerings and sacrifices were made to the gods associated with the Nile to ensure the country’s wellbeing for the coming year.
On both banks of the Nile the massive quarries produced the sandstone needed for the prolific construction of monuments during Dynasty XVIII, at first in small quantities and as the skills of the workmen grew, the stone was more extensively quarried to build great monuments such as the colonnade of Amenhotep III at Luxor, the Karnak Temple of Amenhotep IV, the Ramesseum and Medinet Habu, to name but a few. By Ptolemaic times most of the Upper Egyptian temples contained monuments built from Gebel Silsila sandstone. Because of the sanctity of the site, the sandstone was considered to have an extra holiness.
I made the subtle passaged bold. Now if you were unfamiliar(as 99% of the people who read the site) with the history of the Speo and familiar with the Range of the A Group/Ta Seti Dynastic Kingdom you would think the Speo is a Pure Egyptian style.
Most Folks dont even realize what Ta Seti is and who and where the Ta Set Neshi lived and their importance to places such as Aswan and Kom Ombos. Instead of giving the truth that Ta Seti A group Nehesi were cutting Rock Cut Shrines, they reduce that important info to "Travellers" cutting Rock Cut Shrines prior to the 18th Dynasty. Further they totally omit the 12th Dynasty's Rock Cut Shrines/Temples at Qau.
Funny part is Majority of the Speos were made in the Vincinity of Ta Seti and further past the Cateracts in so called Nubia AKA Kush. The Most Famous Speo is Abu Simbel Built at a site important to A Group Nubians...Built by Ramses To Impress the Nehesi, with his Wives and Daughters and Sons Donning Nubian Wigs..LOL. Yet Zahi and the Euroclowns will claim Egypt was not African..and their supposed Red Headed Leukoderm built a Neheshi Derived Temple on an Important site to the Neheshi dedicated to the Nehesi Horus Wearing Nehesi style to Impress the Nehesi..LOL..
you better believe JARI and Egyptsearch is gonna get this info out, Im gonna make a video REAL soon, no lie on this. The Info provided by Al is exactly what I was lacking!!
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Herodotus on the pharaohs: "So far, all I have said is the record of my own autopsy and judgment and inquiry. Henceforth I will record Egyptian chronicles, according to what I have heard, adding something of what I myself have seen" . . . . "The priests told me that Min was the first king of Egypt, and that first he separated Memphis from the Nile by a dam" . . . "After him came three hundred and thirty kings, whose names the priests recited from a papyrus roll. In all these many generations there were eighteen Ethiopian kings, and one queen, native to the country; the rest were all Egyptian men" . . . "The name of the queen was the same as that of the Babylonian princess, Nitocris. She, to avenge her brother (he was king of Egypt and was slain by his subjects, who then gave Nitocris the sovereignty) put many of the Egyptians to death by treachery". The Histories, c 430 BCE, Book II, chap. 100
This seems to cover AlTakruri's 10 plus 8 more although a list of names is not given.
Gebel Barkal was way up south at the fourth cataract. Yet it was the seat of Amun and pharoanic legitimacy. Among others too numerous to list Zanakht of dynatsy 3 was a Nehasi the 4th dynasty queen Khentkaues was of Ta Seti and she birthed the first two kings of the 5th dynasty the Uahka family established the 12th dynasty Senwosret or Sesostris was a common Uahka name the name Amenhotep or Amememhet shows the Uahka connection to Amun and Gebel Barkal Amenemhet I was vizier for Mentuhotep IV of the preceding 11th dynasty, his ancestry of and marriage in the Uahka family legitimized his natural right to the throne the 14th dynasty's second ruler was actually named Nehesi and honored his mother Peret incorporating her name in his cartouche Piye and the succeeding 25th dynasty are too famous to detail the 25th dynasty was ultra orthodox reviving tradition throughout T3 Akht in truth pharaonic Kmt ended with the 25th dynasty from Napata/Gebel Barkal
And also the oft repeated mistranslated piece about sitting between an Asiatic and a Negro.
And let no Negro pass beyond this point except for trade or tribute.
Absolute nonsense when one is given the back ground on these very monarchs and the context of their situation.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Yes, besides the book you posted only Robert Bianchi's book on the Nubians. "Daily life of the Nubians" mentions the Nubian Rock Cut tomb architecture and how the Egyptian Speo style was first used by A Group Nubians and then brought to Egypt during the 12th Dynasty(a Dynasty linked to A Group via Ta Seti).
Even the Sites dealing with Nubia makes no mention of this.
Honestly modern Egyptology is still stuck in the 19th and 20th century. The only thing is instead now they advocate the Egyptians as defined by the Delta Egyptians created Egypt. Any Mention of Southern Influence is made Via Anthropology or Genetics/Biologists.
You're right. It seems every data that shows Egypt's southerly origins and connections come from other areas of anthropology particularly bio-anthropology. Predynastic Egyptology does touch on the subject but that's it. When it comes to the study of dynastic times there is hardly any mention of Nubian influence or connections other than that of the all too cliched 25th dynasty. This is in contrast to earlier anthropolgy from the 20th and 19th century which was more open to Sudanese or Nilotic influence. Again, I think due to all the evidence supporting the so-called 'Afrocentric' claims, Egyptology seems to compensate by being silent on this.
quote: I mean Zahi Hiwass is a perfect example. His remark that the Egyptians were not Africans only proves his Ignorance on the Bio/Anthro origins of Egypt and his knee Jerk remark that they were not black based on their "Lips" and other features is obsurd.
I honestly don't see how anyone should be suprised, Egyptology is nothing but Western Think Tank to propose the Dynastic Race theory under more subtle tactics.
CORRECTION! Zahi Hawass acknowledges the Egyptians as African just not as "negro". Remember his comments from that BBC special on Africa. He and his ilk seem to cling to the concept of "North African cockasian" vs. "Sub-Saharan kneegrow" the same way posters like 'Rahotep' do today. In their minds Egypt is unique and is not to be associated with either Asia or Sub-Sahara.
quote: and lets be clear, Zahi, Bob Brier and the others are not stupid. The same stuff we read they have read. Alot of what I posted on the Southern Origins of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 12th, and 18th plus other Dynasties come from books that most Egyptology studies would read such as "Chronicle of the Pharoahs" and books by Petrie etc. These people have seen the Images from the Tombs of the Nobles and others, these people are not stupid. Zahi knows damn well Egyptian Culture came from the South and he knows how Important the South was viewed and Held in Dynastic times, yet to keep his European and American Tourists satisfied he will claim the Egyptians are not Africans. If anything these people know MORE about Egypt's African Affinity more than we do.
LOL I can't help but think the same also. Again despite the racism of the 19th and 20th centuries, all the findings and conclusions all point to southern origins albeit with debunked labels of "Euafrican", "Hamitic", or "dark Mediterranean". Not all Egyptologists are in denial. I mean Egyptologists like Donald Redford, Michael Rice, Ahmed Saleh and several others are not as deceitful. Even Egyptologists like Ian Shaw and Toby Wilkinson do so albeit in a circumlocution manner when they focus on western and eastern deserts.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Even Egyptologists like Ian Shaw and Toby Wilkinson do so albeit in a circumlocution manner when they focus on western and eastern deserts.
I don't think Toby Wilkinson's really on our side. Have you read his recent The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt? In there he calls one Kushite ruler "the Black Crusader", describes the Kushites in general as having "African features" and coming from a "fundamentally different African" culture, and even claims that one particular piece of Egyptian anti-Kushite propaganda as a "cheap racial slur" because it also featured monkeys (as if the Egyptians would have been aware of the modern racist association between black people and monkeys ). Wilkinson may not believe that the Egyptians were Mesopotamian invaders, but he doesn't seem to think Egyptians were what we would call "black" either.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Yes, besides the book you posted only Robert Bianchi's book on the Nubians. "Daily life of the Nubians" mentions the Nubian Rock Cut tomb architecture and how the Egyptian Speo style was first used by A Group Nubians and then brought to Egypt during the 12th Dynasty(a Dynasty linked to A Group via Ta Seti).
Even the Sites dealing with Nubia makes no mention of this.
Honestly modern Egyptology is still stuck in the 19th and 20th century. The only thing is instead now they advocate the Egyptians as defined by the Delta Egyptians created Egypt. Any Mention of Southern Influence is made Via Anthropology or Genetics/Biologists.
You're right. It seems every data that shows Egypt's southerly origins and connections come from other areas of anthropology particularly bio-anthropology. Predynastic Egyptology does touch on the subject but that's it. When it comes to the study of dynastic times there is hardly any mention of Nubian influence or connections other than that of the all too cliched 25th dynasty. This is in contrast to earlier anthropolgy from the 20th and 19th century which was more open to Sudanese or Nilotic influence. Again, I think due to all the evidence supporting the so-called 'Afrocentric' claims, Egyptology seems to compensate by being silent on this.
I don't think you even need to know jack **** about bio-anthropology to become an Egyptologist. From what I've read, Egyptology mostly focuses on archaeology, art, and language instead of the Egyptians' biological affinities. That wouldn't be such a problem if the Egyptians' Africanity was taken for granted, but considering that the whole race debate is probably the most contentious issue surrounding Egypt, I'm surprised most of them simply chicken out of the discussion.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ Black is subjective, I think we are doing more harm by using "Black" than any good. I mean lets face it what we call black is vastly different than what they call black. Black to them is the "Negro" image, Jet black Skin and Blubbery lips and tightly curled hair.
In not defending them at all but its futile to argue over subjective stuff like "Black"...We know The dominant Egyptian phenotype during Dynastic times fits well into African Diversity, and is well represented by the folks from Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan.
These people know what the Egyptians looked like. BTW, the Monkey thing is obsurd. The Egyptians worshipped Babboons and even believed Babbons to be Close to Humans and that Humans came from monkeys. The Egyptians also worshiped a Short God obviously modeled after Central Africans.
@ Jehuti is this "Redford" character not the clown ass that made "From Slave to Phroah" about how black Kushites in Egypt went Slaves to Pharoahs in the 25th dynasty and about the "Black Experience" in Egypt. Seriously you advocate a slithering peice of sh@t like that as helping our cause..??
Say it aint so..
also please stop mentioning Rahotep, please keep this thread free of picture spams of Copts and other B.S...please...Yall have many threads for that..
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Then if like you said
quote:I don't think you even need to know jack **** about bio-anthropology to become an Egyptologist. From what I've read, Egyptology mostly focuses on archaeology, art, and language instead of the Egyptians' biological affinities. That wouldn't be such a problem if the Egyptians' Africanity was taken for granted, but considering that the whole race debate is probably the most contentious issue surrounding Egypt, I'm surprised most of them simply chicken out of the discussion.
Then why the hell they still stay clear of finds further up river and in the desert, because they know what it implies an African read BLACK origin all this talk about Egypt is African but are they really black?? is just a cop-out to mystify the obvious they make no qualms about saying people are Blacks when they are in chains or baring tribute and the 25th dyn, I mean leaving out structures out like this^ is called lying through omission.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I don't think you even need to know jack **** about bio-anthropology to become an Egyptologist. From what I've read, Egyptology mostly focuses on archaeology, art, and language instead of the Egyptians' biological affinities. That wouldn't be such a problem if the Egyptians' Africanity was taken for granted, but considering that the whole race debate is probably the most contentious issue surrounding Egypt, I'm surprised most of them simply chicken out of the discussion. [/QB]
Truthcentric says that "Africanity" can be biologically measured.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Yes it can it's called genetics.. and this thread is about archaeology..
Lioness Truthcentric says that "Africanity" can be biologically measured. Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
about 100 miles north of the Third Cataract of the Nile (and about 470 km. south of Aswan)
Here is the site of a large Neolithic settlement (dating probably from about 5000-4000 B.C.); the evidence for this was revealed in aerial photographs shown at a meeting in Lille, France, in 1994. By now it has probably been partly excavated. This would seem to be the largest, earliest "city" known in Africa (including Egypt). Here, too, is the site of a large Bronze Age town, probably dating as early as 2500 B.C. It may have been the capital of the "Kingdom of Yam" mentioned in Egyptian documents of the Sixth Dynasty. By about 2000 B.C. it seems to have been part of the early kingdom of Kush, centered at Kerma (see below), and it remained probably the chief northern city of that state (ca. 2000-1500 B.C.), until conquered by the Egyptian pharaohs in early Dynasty 18. It was evidently called "Sha'a" (from which the modern name Sai derives); it had its own kings, whose tombs lay on the west side of the townsite and which are surrounded by hundreds of other smaller tombs. After it was conquered by the Egyptians, it became the site of an Egyptian fort and town until the Egyptians withdrew northward from the region about 1150 B.C.
Excavator: Francis Geus, Lille, France e-mail: fgeus@nordnet.fr
From an old thread
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
^ Is that supposed to be a bird or a cow in the image. It looks like the hand carved "cow stone" monolith they dug out of the ground at Nabta Playa.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
I think is Horus in Falcon form then again it's Nabta Platya so it could be bovine.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I believe the bird to be a sparrow-hawk since that was one of the totems of Narmer as shown in the Narmer palette and is also one of the totems associated with Ta-Seti.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: I don't think Toby Wilkinson's really on our side. Have you read his recent The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt? In there he calls one Kushite ruler "the Black Crusader", describes the Kushites in general as having "African features" and coming from a "fundamentally different African" culture, and even claims that one particular piece of Egyptian anti-Kushite propaganda as a "cheap racial slur" because it also featured monkeys (as if the Egyptians would have been aware of the modern racist association between black people and monkeys ). Wilkinson may not believe that the Egyptians were Mesopotamian invaders, but he doesn't seem to think Egyptians were what we would call "black" either.
Wow! Never mind then! I think that book you cite may have been discussed before, but I don't recall.
quote: I don't think you even need to know jack **** about bio-anthropology to become an Egyptologist. From what I've read, Egyptology mostly focuses on archaeology, art, and language instead of the Egyptians' biological affinities. That wouldn't be such a problem if the Egyptians' Africanity was taken for granted, but considering that the whole race debate is probably the most contentious issue surrounding Egypt, I'm surprised most of them simply chicken out of the discussion.
Of course bio-anthropological knowledge is not necessary since Egyptology is strictly speaking is cultural anthropology; however, considering that ALL the cultural evidence screams an African identity for the Egyptians, you would think these so-called scholars would put 2 and 2 together! It's funny how they would chicken out when it comes to the 'race' issue today but back a few decades ago they were pretty much adamant about calling the Egyptians 'Hamites', 'Eurafricans', etc.!
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Black is subjective, I think we are doing more harm by using "Black" than any good. I mean lets face it what we call black is vastly different than what they call black. Black to them is the "Negro" image, Jet black Skin and Blubbery lips and tightly curled hair.
In not defending them at all but its futile to argue over subjective stuff like "Black"...We know The dominant Egyptian phenotype during Dynastic times fits well into African Diversity, and is well represented by the folks from Upper Egypt and Northern Sudan.
These people know what the Egyptians looked like. BTW, the Monkey thing is obsurd. The Egyptians worshipped Babboons and even believed Babbons to be Close to Humans and that Humans came from monkeys. The Egyptians also worshiped a Short God obviously modeled after Central Africans.
@ Jehuti is this "Redford" character not the clown ass that made "From Slave to Phroah" about how black Kushites in Egypt went Slaves to Pharoahs in the 25th dynasty and about the "Black Experience" in Egypt. Seriously you advocate a slithering peice of sh@t like that as helping our cause..??
Say it aint so..
also please stop mentioning Rahotep, please keep this thread free of picture spams of Copts and other B.S...please...Yall have many threads for that..
As for the 'black' is subjective. Again, by their standards there would be many people in Sub-Sahara who would not be considered 'black' when to the public eye they are obviously are considered as such!
As for Donald Redford, I swear he Wilkinson, and other Egyptologists seem to have this schizophrenic view of Egyptians. They say in so many words that the Egyptians are African yet go at pains to say the Nubians immediately to their south are black but the Egyptians are not. I guess they really must be suffering from the same mentality as Hawass. Who is left then? I can only think of Barbara Wilkinson but she retired some years ago.
As for that "monkey" mess. They really lost it, since the Egyptians worked with monkeys, worshiped with them, and even mummified and buried them like people!
^ I've met people who acknowledge the indigenous African identity of the Egyptians but say, "African does not mean black". In their eyes, lighter-skinned Berber types are every bit as African as the people we'd call "black" (never mind all the evidence for Eurasian mtDNA in Berbers). Likely Redford and Wilkinson subscribe to this mentality.
Like ausar has said, Egyptology is in desperate need of a major paradigm shift.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ The fact of the matter is it was not "Lightskinned" Berbers who founded Egypt nor is there any proof that the Berbers have always been Lightskin. There are Black Berbers as well.
It makes no sense to me that people who live and studied Egypt can sit up and write a book titled "From Slave to Phroah. the "Black" experience in Ancient Egypt". That pisses me off, obviously this man is trying to make Egypt into an Early form of America where blacks were regulated to a slave Role and somehow won their Freedom by the Caucasian elite Granting it to them. What is funny is these same people will then turn around and say Egyptians were not obsessed with race.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Brada do you think the 18 Ethiopian Kings were part of the 12th Dynasty?? I always thought the Egyptians saw the 12th Dynasty kings as "Egyptians", I know Sesotris was quite popular hundreds of years after his reign.
I always thought the Ethiopian Kings were from the 25th Dynasty..but only 5 ruled, Pianki 747-716BC, Shabaka 716-702 B.C, Shebitku 702-690 B.C, Taharqa 690-664 B.C, Tanutamun 664-656
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Herodotus on the pharaohs: "So far, all I have said is the record of my own autopsy and judgment and inquiry. Henceforth I will record Egyptian chronicles, according to what I have heard, adding something of what I myself have seen" . . . . "The priests told me that Min was the first king of Egypt, and that first he separated Memphis from the Nile by a dam" . . . "After him came three hundred and thirty kings, whose names the priests recited from a papyrus roll. In all these many generations there were eighteen Ethiopian kings, and one queen, native to the country; the rest were all Egyptian men" . . . "The name of the queen was the same as that of the Babylonian princess, Nitocris. She, to avenge her brother (he was king of Egypt and was slain by his subjects, who then gave Nitocris the sovereignty) put many of the Egyptians to death by treachery". The Histories, c 430 BCE, Book II, chap. 100
This seems to cover AlTakruri's 10 plus 8 more although a list of names is not given.
Gebel Barkal was way up south at the fourth cataract. Yet it was the seat of Amun and pharoanic legitimacy. Among others too numerous to list Zanakht of dynatsy 3 was a Nehasi the 4th dynasty queen Khentkaues was of Ta Seti and she birthed the first two kings of the 5th dynasty the Uahka family established the 12th dynasty Senwosret or Sesostris was a common Uahka name the name Amenhotep or Amememhet shows the Uahka connection to Amun and Gebel Barkal Amenemhet I was vizier for Mentuhotep IV of the preceding 11th dynasty, his ancestry of and marriage in the Uahka family legitimized his natural right to the throne the 14th dynasty's second ruler was actually named Nehesi and honored his mother Peret incorporating her name in his cartouche Piye and the succeeding 25th dynasty are too famous to detail the 25th dynasty was ultra orthodox reviving tradition throughout T3 Akht in truth pharaonic Kmt ended with the 25th dynasty from Napata/Gebel Barkal
And also the oft repeated mistranslated piece about sitting between an Asiatic and a Negro.
And let no Negro pass beyond this point except for trade or tribute.
Absolute nonsense when one is given the back ground on these very monarchs and the context of their situation.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Good question. By 'Ethiopia' do they mean Nubia or do they mean the older use-- Canaan?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Jeri
quote:Brada do you think the 18 Ethiopian Kings were part of the 12th Dynasty?? I always thought the Egyptians saw the 12th Dynasty kings as "Egyptians", I know Sesotris was quite popular hundreds of years after his reign.
Quite possibly because Mentuhotep called himself son of the first born Nahasi, now if Nahasi is translated into Nubian and Nubian translated into Ethiopian then yes it seems that they were.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^ I guess Im confused as to how the "Nehesi" was percieved in A. Egypt. From what I read is that some like the Kushites were not well recieved in Ancient Egypt. The Pharoahs such as Sesotris AKA Senusret, Montuhotep etc. were among the "Who's Who" of Rulers in Km.t. It would not be too farfetched to say that if they were seen as Nubian/Ethiopian by Egyptian priests then the Nehesi produced some of the most successful Dynasties in Egyptian History.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The Kushites or Keshli were just one group of Nehesi. There were many others. I don't think the Uakha clan were Keshli since such people didn't appear in Egyptian records until the Middle Kingdom. According to the reports cited in this thread, the clan is associated with Nehesi groups migrating in the area of southern Egypt. Petrie calls them 'Galla', but who knows.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Well look at it this way the British royals were actually Germans but they conducted two brutal wars with each other, and even had name changed from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha to Windsor.while the Brits themselves ultimately and anciently came from various German tribes.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Actually the Brits themselves were CELTIC. It was the English who descend from Germanic tribes, in particular the Angles. But yes I see your point about England vs. Germany. This is why I find the whole Egypt vs. Nubia with racial divide absurd.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Brada you forget that the population in England known as the Welsh are descendants of the Native Britons. Like Jehuti I agree this whole "Nubian/Egyptian" rivalry is not as big as people try to make it. However I just thought Sesotris, Mentuhotep etc. would be seen as "Egyptian" or Rome...Men of Men.
This throws a wrench further into the whole 25th Dynasty being the "Black" Pharoahs of Egypt. Funny thing is that there is no evidence of Eurasian Pharoahs until the Persians, and none of these Eurasians were well recieved by Egyptians.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Agreed on both you guys position on the the make up of the Brits,but at the time of Windsors there was a sense of a British nation,with exceptions like Ireland,and to some extent Scots-land,
Like the Brit royals being German while politically British, the 12th dynasty kings would have been Kemetian in the political sense and they would have anciently have clout as the area they originated or passed through was Ta-Seti the 1st nome. Remember The Prophecy of Neferti' also posted above by AlTakruri
Then a king will come from the South, Ameny, the justified, my name, Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt, He will take the white crown, he will join the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns) Asiatics will fall to his sword, Libyans will fall to his flame, Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might, As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him, One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler, To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt . . Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Although the big difference was that it took the Germanic invaders centuries of brutal warfare and suppression of the native Brits for them to be "accepted" as rulers and I put quotes around accepted because even this would have been questionable if one were to ask Brits of modern Welsh, Cornish, Scottish, etc.
The 12th dynasty and even previous Egyptian dynasties were different. We have little if any evidence of conflict from Egyptians having their kingship come from the south. In fact we have evidence of southerners ruling over them during the Naqada period at Nekhen!
We have more evidence of Greeks resisting their kingship from the Macedonians of the north than we do of Egyptians resisting theirs from the south.
My only question regards the identity of these so-called "Galla" peoples. Do we have any evidence whatsoever as to who these people were??
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
^^^^ I agree, I have always suspected that the 12th Dynasty came from A group Royalty and Nobility. Of course there is no evidence as far as I know to support my hunch but the A group Kings and Royalty HAD to go somewhere when the 1st dynasty took control of Wa-wat. I suspect they went to Aswan/Elephantine and further North into Qau and eventually Thebes then to finally sit on the Throne of Km.t as legitimate kings themselves.
I mean think about it why would the Prophecy of Neferti mention "Ta-Seti" the former home of A group Nubia if not to legtimize their Rule over their former enemies.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Jeri
quote:I mean think about it why would the Prophecy of Neferti mention "Ta-Seti" the former home of A group Nubia if not to legtimize their Rule over their former enemies.
Exactly,and the ancients text backed them up as well as finding. Diodorus Siculus They say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony. For, speaking generally, what is now Egypt, they maintain, was not land but sea when in the beginning the universe was being formed; afterwards, however, as the Nile during the times of its inundation carried down the mud from Ethiopia, land was gradually built up from the deposit. Also the statement that all the land of the Egyptians is alluvial silt deposited by the river receives the clearest proof, in their opinion, from what takes place at the outlets of the Nile; for as each year new mud is continually gathered together at the mouths of the river, the sea is observed being thrust back by the deposited silt and the land receiving the increase. And the larger part of the customs of the Egyptians are, they hold, Ethiopian, the colonists still preserving their ancient manners. For instance, the belief that their kings are gods, the very special attention which they pay to their burials, and many other matters of a similar nature are Ethiopian practices, while the shapes of their statues and the forms of their letters are Ethiopian; for of the two kinds of writing which the Egyptians have, that which is known as "popular" (demotic) is learned by everyone, while that which is called "sacred" is understood only by the priests of the Egyptians, who learn it from their fathers as one of the things which are not divulged, but among the Ethiopians everyone uses these forms of letters. Furthermore, the orders of the priests, they maintain, have much the same position among both peoples; for all are clean who are engaged in the service of the gods, keeping themselves shaven, like the Ethiopian priests, and having the same dress and form of staff, which is shaped like a plough and is carried by their kings, who wear high felt hats which end in a knob at the top and are circled by the serpents which they call asps; and this symbol appears to carry the thought that it will be the lot of those who shall dare to attack the king to encounter death-carrying stings. Many other things are also told by them concerning their own antiquity and the colony which they sent out that became the Egyptians, but about this there is no special need of our writing anything. http://wysinger.homestead.com/diodorus.html Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
up...
Posted by ausar (Member # 1797) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Which Egyptian pharoahs before the 25th dyn were of Nubian origin?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
bump
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Here's to Beyoku TyrannoHotep Bradda Anansi Djehuti Jari!!
This thread is truly an example of ES members acting as colleagues in a joint effort for a great production unlike found anywhere else.
Restored 10 of 12 missing images, 5 are Petrie text.
There are 2 images Brada can plug back in next time he's in town or gets a heads up.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
this is lovely
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Not to steer to far off the topic but Id like to re-dedicate this thread to the evidence of Nehshi/Nubian Egyptian Rulers and Royals having power in KMT
Towards the end of Kemetic Rule a little known Nubian Egyptian nearly threw off PTolomaic Rule and restored Native Nile-Valley Rule
Hugronaphor (also known as Hurganophor, Haronnophris, Harmachis, Hyrgonaphor, Herwennefer, or Horwennefer) was an Upper Egyptian of apparently Nubian origin[1] who led Upper Egypt in secession from the rule of Ptolemy IV Philopator in 205 BC. No monuments are attested to this king but along with his successor Ankhmakis (also known as Chaonnophris or Ankhwennefer[2]) he held a large part of Egypt until 186 BC. A graffito dating to about 201 BC on a wall of the mortuary Temple of Seti I at Abydos, in which he is called by the Greek name Hyrgonaphor, is an attestation to the extent of his influence.[2] He appears to have died before 197 BC.
The Abydene graffito, one of the few documents remaining from his reign, is written in Egyptian using Greek letters, the oldest testimony of a development which would end in the Coptic script replacing the native Egyptian demotic
His Successsor
Ankhmakis
Ankhmakis (also known as Chaonnophris or Ankhwennefer[1]) was the successor of Hugronaphor, a rebel ruler who controlled much of Upper Egypt during the reigns of Ptolemies IV and V. His rule lasted from approximately 199 to 185 BC.
Ankhmakis succeeded Hugronaphor as king of Upper Egypt in 199, or thereabouts, and managed to win back as much as 80% of the country. He held Lykopolis (modern Asyut) in 197 BC but was later forced to withdraw to Thebes. The war between North and South continued until 185 BC, when Ankhmakis was arrested by the Ptolemaic General Conanus.[2] The Rosetta Stone was carved in a gesture of thanks to the priests for helping to defeat him. Little is known about the details of his reign as most of records thereof were destroyed.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Brotha Al do you have any insider info on this..
Amenemhat Scribe of Hatshepsut in Buhen
The University of Pennsylvania's excavations in Buhen in 1909-10fn1 fn2 explored a site layered with many eras, from a Middle Kingdom fortress through Coptic ruins. They uncovered remains of a temple bearing traces of Thuthmoses I - III and Hatshepsut constructed during the Eighteenth Dynasty. There was the only surviving temple of Hatshepsut, although ruined and incomplete, except for hers at Deir Al Bahri.
Neither in a temple nor tomb, they found a cache of three displaced statues just a few feet into the sand along the northern wall of the city. Two of these represent the scribe Amenemhat (1479-1458 B.C.). By serendipity they found a stela, trimmed for reuse as the base of a column, that also belonged to the scribe Amenemhat in room 55 in one of the houses adjoining Hatshepsut's temple. Between the inscriptions on the three monuments Amenemhat's lineage and position are clear. He was a Nubian born in Tahekht to the chieftan Resu and the lady of the house Rena. Inscriptions on his scribe statue title him, "the watchful foreman of the king's daughter (god's wife), the scribe Amenemhat," that is, a scribe of Hatshepsut before she became king.
Another stela, round topped and complete, now in Khartoum, was recoverd from Amenemhat's undecorated tomb at Debiera West, by the Scandinavian Joint Expedition.fn3 His older brother Djehutyhotep's tomb was painted but Amenemhat's inscribed monuments tell his story instead. He held the chieftian position in turn from his brother, inherited down the line from their father. According to that funerary stela, Amenemhat's wife was named Hatshepsut, and the couple died without heirs. So, he was the last chief of Tehkhet to carry the hereditary position.
Amenemhat might well have trained in Egypt. He went by an Egyptian name while his brother went by an Egyptian and also a Nubian name, Paitsy. Amenemhat held his postion under the Thuthmoses. Since one inscription speaks of the god's wife, we know he also served under Hatshepsut before she declared herself king. And the UPENN stela indicates that Amenemhat served Hatshepsut while she was king fn4 but the scribe statuette depicts his earlier career as a scribe. Since the scribal figure was dedicated to the god Horus of Buhen, it was probably placed in a shrine or temple intending to keep the owner's dedication to the god alive, as well as his own standing among the offerings.
The original 14+" tall scribe statuette got around in the 20th century. After its discovery in the 1909-1910 excavations, it became the property of the UPENN Museum in Philadelphia and toured on loan a couple of times. For the "The American Discovery of Ancient Egypt" exhibition the statuette featured in Los Angeles, Saint Louis, and Indianapolis in 1995-1996.fn5 For an exhibition of the University of Pennsylvania's ancient Egyptian collection it traveled to Dallas and Seattle in 1998-1999.fn6 Then in 2005 it joined artifacts from many museums in the Metropolitan's "Hatshepsut from Queen to Pharaoh" exhibit.fn4
Lake Nasser covers the Buhen site today since the flooding of Nubia in 1964 with the completion of the Aswan Dam. Hatshepsut's temple was moved and preserved in Khartoum. The block stature of Amenemhat is in the Sudan National Museum at Khartoum along with the whole stela; the reshaped stela and the seated scribe with one knee elevated are in the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Philadelpia.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Na lil bruh Jari
I have to catch up to you again.
Using a national egy name and having an ethnic name were common enough.
I recently saw it on an AE court document of 'Asiatic' slaves.
You can see 'Libyans' doing it too.
And the Egyptian of no other claimed ethnicity? They'd have hard egy nicknames.
All I know about Buhen is that little chart I made showing who built and controlled it until Wawat Nubia was annexed by Egypt. It could use an image of the fortified copper refinery.
I recall Hatshepsut and several Nehesy. I don't know who was into them more. Her or Ramses?
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Its all good bro, Im sure we will eventually get some more detailed info, what I find interesting is that Amenahat's lineage is available to Egyptologists Im curious if he descends from the illustrious Uah-Ka family
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I recall Hatshepsut and several Nehesy. I don't know who was into them more. Her or Ramses?
Yes, I remember watching a documentary about her a it being mentioned that Senenmut, her chief architect and rumored lover was of Neheshy descent..
unfortunately Ive never been able to find concrete evidence of that..Interestingly his Mortuary Temples do resemble the Speo style introduced by the Neheshy that the Egyptians adopted and used...
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: Its all good bro, Im sure we will eventually get some more detailed info, what I find interesting is that Amenahat's lineage is available to Egyptologists Im curious if he descends from the illustrious Uah-Ka family
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: I recall Hatshepsut and several Nehesy. I don't know who was into them more. Her or Ramses?
Yes, I remember watching a documentary about her a it being mentioned that Senenmut, her chief architect and rumored lover was of Neheshy descent..
unfortunately Ive never been able to find concrete evidence of that..Interestingly his Mortuary Temples do resemble the Speo style introduced by the Neheshy that the Egyptians adopted and used...
.
He had Negro-mania
They called Diop confused. They called Ampim a liar. And all the while they knew. Hurnung. Yurco. All o dem.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
@ Jari
Noticed the images on pg1 that I restored back in March have gone missing once again. If you didn't save them then I can restore them for you. Otherwise it doesn't seem worth the effort as no one consults the archives these days.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
Hey bro, yeah if you could one last time I cant find where I saved them back in the day....thanks in advance
Also Ive come across some new info that Im trying to piece together and will upload here soon hopefully
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: @ Jari
Noticed the images on pg1 that I restored back in March have gone missing once again. If you didn't save them then I can restore them for you. Otherwise it doesn't seem worth the effort as no one consults the archives these days.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
6 Statues Reveal Round-Faced Ancient Egyptian Family
Six ancient Egyptian statues depicting a man named Neferkhewe and his family have been discovered near the Nile River. Dating back 3,500 years, the statues were found inside two cenotaphs, or "false tombs” at the Gebel el Silsila site. That site is also where many of the sandstone blocks used to build Egypt's temples were quarried.
A statue of a man and his wife sitting side by side graces a cenotaph at the ancient Egyptian site Gebel el Silsila. These statues date back 3,500 years to Egypt's 18th Dynasty and were buried by an earthquake and Nile flooding sometime in the last 2,000 years.
Statues of Neferkhewe, chief of the Medjay and overseer of foreign lands during the reign of Pharaoh Thutmose III and his family. These statues are in a cenotaph, or false tomb, at the Nile site Gebel el Silsila. Cenotaphs are shrines or memorials to the dead, but the bodies are interred elsewhere.
Statues of Neferkhewe and his wife Ruiuresti and two children at Gebel el Silsila. An earthquake sloughed this shrine off the bluff in ancient times, and repeated Silt from Nile flooding covered the site until archaeologists uncovered the statues in December 2015.
A close look at one of the new statues discovered at Gebel el Silsila. These statues are the best-preserved of any in 32 cenotaphs at the site, said excavation co-director John Ward. Large ears and round cheeks hint at the individual characteristics of the person being remembered.
An ancient Egyptian power couple from the 18th Dynasty. Archaeologists aren't sure why certain families chose to build cenotaphs, or shrines, at Gebel el Silsila, which is also the site of an enormous sandstone quarry that provided the rock for Egypt's buildings and temples for centuries
Carvings flank the statues of an ancient Egyptian elite couple. Researchers are working to clean and translate more of the carvings found around the two new cenotaphs.
The discovery was made by the Spanish Archaeological Mission at the necropolis of Qubbet El-Hawa in Aswan, not far from the River Nile in southern Egypt. This site has been the place of discovery for 14 other members of Shemai’s family, as well. It is believed that Sarenput II held the position of governor of Elephantine, a small island in the Nile that is near this excavation site in modern-day Aswan.
In a statement from the Egyptian Ministry of Antiquities, the head of the Ancient Egyptian Antiquities department, Mahmoud Afifi, said that the discovery is “important” because it shows how far wealth and prestige followed anyone associated with the ancient Egyptian elite in the Twelfth Dynasty. It seems even those not actually in power but just associated with it, like Shemai, who was related to prominent figures, were showered in riches and recognition.
Dr Alejandro Jiménez-Serrano, Egyptologist and archeologist at the University of Jaen, said that the mummy was covered in a “beautiful” multi-colored mask and collar. “We have found the mummy body of Shemai, but we left him in his original position, in his coffin. The next year, we will have the opportunity to look [at] his face," he told Live Science.[/QB]
Tomb inscription from Sereneput I (the founder of the "Important Wealthy Family" from the previous post) pays homage to the Gods of Elephantine(Ta Seti)
quote:One of the largest and most beautiful tombs of the Middle Kingdom on the hill of Qubbet el-Hawa is that of Sarenput I, which marks the apogee of funereal architecture in Aswan. The provincial Nomarchs, living far from the Residence in Memphis, enjoyed autonomy and revenues, which allowed them to consider themselves as minor sovereigns. Sarenput lived during the Middle Kingdom (~2055 - 1650 BC) reign of Senuseret (Sesostris) I (~1956-1911 BC).
The “biographical” inscription, which Sarenput left in his tomb, well shows how this powerful character considered himself. "“ I have built my tomb to show my gratitude to the king Kheper-Ka-Ra (Senuseret I). His majesty made me great in the land. I have overturned very ancient rules and, it resulted that I reached the sky in an instant. I have employed artisans to work in my tomb and his Majesty congratulated me highly and often in the presence of courtesans and the Queen.. The tomb was equipped with palace furniture, decorated with all sorts of accessories, filled with decorative parts and provided with offerings. I should not want for any necessary thing, it was at the treasure house that all this was claimed for me. His Majesty saw to it that I could have a good life. I was full of joy at having succeeded in reaching the sky, my head touched the firmament, I grazed the stars. I appeared like a star. I danced like the planets, my town celebrated and my troops were jubilant. For me, the Elephantine gods extended the reign of His Majesty as king they caused His Majesty to be reborn for me in order that he might repeat millions of Sed festivals for me, they granted him eternity as king that he might install himself on the throne of Horus, just as I had wished for him.”"
Sarenput had no hesitation in according himself a stellar destiny and, thanks to the notable’s wishes, the king of Upper and Lower Egypt could regenerate himself eternally in order to permit Sarenput. to profit from the same destiny. We see, nevertheless that, in spite of the bragging, the proud Nomarch doubtless considered himself a royal servant. This shows us that, in the time of Sesostris I (Senwosret), royal authority had been restored throughout the kingdom. Plan
In 2016, a causeway leading to the tomb of Sarenput Iwas uncovered. It is made of blue sandstone, a building material only available in the area of Shat el-Saba Regal, near Kom Ombo, which was also used at the mortuary temple of Mentuhotep II at Deir el-Bahari and the temple for Satet on the Island of Elephantine. The causeway is considered the longest ever found on the western bank of the Nile in Aswan, stretching for 133 metres to connect the tomb to the Nile bank. It is decorated with engravings, the most important of which are found on the eastern part of the ramp's northern wall and depict a group of men pulling a bull and presenting it as an offering to Sarenput(see EES1, see EES2). The decoration of the causeway was already underway in year 10 of the reign of Senwosret I (1910 BC). As the pottery shows, the causeway was in use for almost 600 years as a place of memory and funerary ritual activities.
Access to the tomb is via a monumental staircase, which is an integral part of the funerary complex. Unlike those of Sabni I and Mekhu for example, it is not perpendicular to the face of the cliff but makes an angle of 85 degrees.
From the porch doorway, which gave access to the forecourt, there remain two side jambs of fine limestone (a rare stone in this region, probably imported from far away), each carrying a portrayal of Sarenput with his instruments of power, the Sekhem sceptre and baton of authority.
The forecourt is cut directly into the slope. It comprises a series of six decorated pillars surmounted by architraves and which supported a roof, which has today disappeared. The general effect reminds us of a temple vestibule. The façade of the tomb comprises hieroglyphic inscriptions, above all around the door, which they frame. Laterally, more figurative representations are presnt. Around the door are portrayals of Sarenput in the form of larger-than-life statues as on pylons in a temple. The first room, with 4 pillars, is decorated with frescos and hieroglyphs painted in colour, though much deteriorated.[/QB]
Sarenput I was buried in a large rock-cut tomb at Qubbet el-Hawa (No. 36), which was decorated in sunk reliefs at the outside, and lively painted in the interior. The tomb is composed of three rooms connected by hallways; the first two chambers are provided with colonnades while the innermost has a niche that once housed a statue of the owner. Unfortunately, the whole tomb suffered significant damage over time.
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: ... I believe Diop (I think it was him) pointed out that in the hymn of "the glory of the Sensusret the 3" there's a section where the Egyptians are referred to as "black people."
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
). Wilkinson may not believe that the Egyptians were Mesopotamian invaders, but he doesn't seem to think Egyptians were what we would call "black" either. 
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
