Just a correction, but the base of ancient Egyptian language is Afrasian in general and NOT Cushitic. Cushitic is merely a branch of Afrasian just like Egyptian. The Beja language To-Bedawi was once classified as Cushitic, but linguists now acknowledge it is separate and closely closer related to Egyptian than Cushitic languages however some features do bear similarities to northern Cushitic languages like Agaw.
Another main point to get across is that the ancient Egyptians were not one single people but various groups that inhabited the Nile Delta, Nile Valley, Western deserts and Eastern deserts. These four regions show variances. That a Beja-like people is responsible for predynastic culture is nothing new or surprising.
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the base of ancient Egyptian language is Afrasian
What Asian language formed the "base" of AE?
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
The Beja probably do have a very close ethnic connection to the ancient Egyptians, but Djehuti is right, the people who would become the Egyptians came from many different African peoples. In fact Sundjata thinks that the predynastic Badarians were Nilo-Saharans rather than Afrasians.
BTW, while "Afrasian" is a step above "Afroasiatic", I still think it should be renamed. I propose "Ethiosudanic" (since the phylum is believed to have originated on the Sudanese to Ethiopian coastline).
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Personally I like the name Afro-Erythrean or Erythrean better. By the way, how can we even know what language phylum the Badarians or any other predynastic group spoke? Both Nilo-Saharan and Afrasian speakers cohabited the same areas during that time.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: By the way, how can we even know what language phylum the Badarians or any other predynastic group spoke?
Ask Sundjata, but I guess he bases this on the semi-nomadic cattle pastoral lifestyle the Badarians apparently had.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
While I don't recall finalizing that as my official opinion, I do remember considering that to be a distinct possibility based on several factors, namely the fact that Ehret's (2010) loan word table for Nilo-saharan items borrowed into Egyptian, seem to all center on the Neolithic industries that the Badarians pioneered, namely animal husbandry. I also considered the dates he gave for when these loan words were introduced and the geographic distribution of Nilo-saharan speakers west of the Nile. What Truthcentric mentions is also a consideration. I'd more cautiously say that either the Badarians were Nilo-Saharan-speakers or they were among the first to incorporate Nilo-Saharan agricultural terms into their (presumably Afrasan) lexicon.
I also think Ancient Egyptian was probably a lingua franca based on Ehret's notes concerning evidence of intense bilingualism around this time in the lower Nile valley (among other considerations like the tale of Sinuhe and Clyde's observation of the use of different "cursive" scripts).. the only thing that we can be sure about is that the Naqadans were definitely Egyptian-speakers and if the Qustul incense burner truly depicts proto-hieroglyphs, we can be sure that at least a segment of the A-group were Egyptian-speakers as well.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: I also think Ancient Egyptian was probably a lingua franca based on Ehret's notes concerning evidence of intense bilingualism around this time in the lower Nile valley (among other considerations like the tale of Sinuhe and Clyde's observation of the use of different "cursive" scripts)
I myself was wondering whether ancient Egyptian was only the official language (a lingua franca as you describe) instead of a vernacular language spoken universally by the Egyptian population. For all we know, some Egyptians well into the dynastic period may have been native Nilo-Saharan-speakers who only wrote in Afrasian but didn't necessarily speak it in private.
Come to think of it, the Egyptians' own name for their written language translates to "Language of the Gods", which implies a belief that the gods spoke a different language from ordinary Egyptian mortals.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
No one is taking into account the fact that the Egyptian overal bodybuld alligns them equadistantly to Sudanese groups as to Pygmies?
Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
quote:Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: the base of ancient Egyptian language is Afrasian
What Asian language formed the "base" of AE?
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
What is the "Beja type". Can you lay this out scientifically?
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for. And the location of Pwnt is far from being certain.
BTW, where do the AE claim to have come from Pwnt?
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Personally I like the name Afro-Erythrean or Erythrean better. By the way, how can we even know what language phylum the Badarians or any other predynastic group spoke? Both Nilo-Saharan and Afrasian speakers cohabited the same areas during that time.
I Actually think the term "Nilo Saharan" fits best. When I first learned these languages were related years ago I assumed this was the term given to them before I learned this was not the linguistic term for the phylum. It also removes "Asia" from the picture.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
The Explorer
This website says a little about AE coming from Punt:
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: No one is taking into account the fact that the Egyptian overal bodybuld alligns them equadistantly to Sudanese groups as to Pygmies?
I guess its too much of a mind-phuk to ponder on what could be the implications for this.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Uh.. not really!
What exactly do you mean by "body build" do you mean stature or body proportions?? Explain.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Going of the top, stature wasn't a factor in the construction of the plot. Its based on measurements taken from all four limb segments, as well as the trunk. Trenton is the author and the name of the study is,
Post cranial evidence of cold adaptation in Neanderthals. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: While I don't recall finalizing that as my official opinion, I do remember considering that to be a distinct possibility based on several factors, namely the fact that Ehret's (2010) loan word table for Nilo-saharan items borrowed into Egyptian, seem to all center on the Neolithic industries that the Badarians pioneered, namely animal husbandry. I also considered the dates he gave for when these loan words were introduced and the geographic distribution of Nilo-saharan speakers west of the Nile. What Truthcentric mentions is also a consideration. I'd more cautiously say that either the Badarians were Nilo-Saharan-speakers or they were among the first to incorporate Nilo-Saharan agricultural terms into their (presumably Afrasan) lexicon.
Interesting. I myself have entertained this idea myself. The modern distribution and frequency of Nilo-Saharan languages point to the southern parts of the Western desert, whereas Afrasian (Berber speakers) are associated with the northern areas of the Western desert. Certainly the ranges for both groups were far more extensive during the green Sahara times. I agree the Badarians were either Nilo-Saharans who assimilated into an Afrasian majority OR Afrasians who adopted Nilotic words and customs. What of the custom of mummification associated with the Badarians? I don't know of any studies linking this practice with Nilo-Saharans (not to discount the possibility of this) but most associate the practice with early perhaps proto-Berbers per Libya and Uan Muhuggiag. And what of the Chadic loan words discovered in the Egyptian language as well?
quote:I also think Ancient Egyptian was probably a lingua franca based on Ehret's notes concerning evidence of intense bilingualism around this time in the lower Nile valley (among other considerations like the tale of Sinuhe and Clyde's observation of the use of different "cursive" scripts).. the only thing that we can be sure about is that the Naqadans were definitely Egyptian-speakers and if the Qustul incense burner truly depicts proto-hieroglyphs, we can be sure that at least a segment of the A-group were Egyptian-speakers as well.
I believe the Mdu-Neter (Ancient Egyptian) language itself as we understand it to be a kind of langua-franca. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again. Ancient Egyptian is classified as being of its own sub-phylum within Afrisian, but that doesn't mean there were no other languages comprising this group, OR that such a language did not consist of any variation or dialects. When you look at Indo-European for example, Greek is considered its own sub-branch even though ancient records show 4 closely intelligible dialects. Even the Albanian language is considered to be descended from that of the ancient Illyrians is classified a its own subcategory within I-E. Scholars think there were more dialects even languages for these groups but these were lost. Afrasian is much older than I-E, and I think even greater diversity did not survive either. Per the 'Tales of Sinhue' either the Upper Egyptians and Delta Egyptians were speaking unintelligible dialects of the same language OR different languages of the same group altogether. This is no different today with say Luzon Filipinos in the north not being able to understand Mindinao Filipinos in the south and vice-versa or northern Mexicans having difficulty understanding the Spanish dialects of southern Mexicans, or northern and southern Chinese having unintelligible comprehension. The standard hieroglyphs like Chinese writing may express the same ideas and words, but the words themselves may be expressed or pronounced differently. This may also explain the differences in cursive scripts.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Going of the top, stature wasn't a factor in the construction of the plot. Its based on measurements taken from all four limb segments, as well as the trunk. Trenton is the author and the name of the study is,
Post cranial evidence of cold adaptation in Neanderthals.
Okay so the study appears to be about cold adaptation in Neanderthals, and??...
By the way, that study was discussed several times before.
Just for humor, can you explain what this diagram is suppose to represent??
^^ What do the x and y axes represent? I take it 'Egy' means Egyptian and 'Pyg' means Pygmy. They appear to share the same x coordinates but differing y coordinates with Egyptians being higher up. But then Egyptians seem to be in the middle of a -y/x slope between 'Sud' and 'Nub'. What do these latter two abbreviations represent??
In trying to answer my questions above, can you explain this related chart from stringer on the same topic of neanderthal cold adaptation vs. later human tropical adaptation??
^ Notice Egyptians here clearly cluster close to Pygmies first and then 'American Blacks'. What do you think this means?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for...
Of course. What KoKaKoLa hasn't realized is that 'Cushitic' is a language group and therefore should NOT be used to describe a physical 'type'.
By the way KoKaKoLa, as I said the native Beja language To-Bedawi now recognized as being separate from the Cushitic group. It may show some similarities in vocabulary with northern Cushitic languages like Agaw but grammatically it is much closer to Berber and Egyptian. Even the vocabulary is closer to Egyptian than Cushitic.
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING:
The Explorer
This website says a little about AE coming from Punt:
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Well, actually I had a primary Kemetic/Egyptic text in mind, which supposedly professes that the AE came from Pwnt. I know about AE reverential attitudes towards "Ta-Neter" ~ the "land of God" [some have read this as the "Divine Land"], and word about this being reference to territory "south of Kemet". However beyond that, and short of speculations in some quarters, I haven't seen any concrete demonstration of the precise location of the ancestral land as it was understood by the AE themselves.
I will give you props though, for having some gut to give some form of an answer, which is much more than I can say for the topic opener.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for...
Of course. What KoKaKoLa hasn't realized is that 'Cushitic' is a language group and therefore should NOT be used to describe a physical 'type'.
By the way KoKaKoLa, as I said the native Beja language To-Bedawi now recognized as being separate from the Cushitic group. It may show some similarities in vocabulary with northern Cushitic languages like Agaw but grammatically it is much closer to Berber and Egyptian. Even the vocabulary is closer to Egyptian than Cushitic.
The Egyptian/Beja connection is definitely there. Toby Wilkinson and others are on to something in finding the roots to Egyptian civilization in the Eastern desert (Beja territory). No surprise Kendall and the people at the Oriental Institute think Qustul comes from the same tradition.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
KoKaKoLa
Just to throw a Wrench into some peoples arguements, Were There Pygmies in The Horn region of East Africa?
I'm thinking you think that the Horn was where the Egyptians pointed to as saying they came from.
One thing we can safely say, is that Punt was not from Arabia, Punt was probably in the Area closest to either Sudan, Chad, Kenya, Uganda since this is where we hear Pygmies were Living in Africa back in those days. To make statements that Punt was found in the Somali regions, can also be probable, but we really never hear of Pygmies coming from that part of East Africa.
Don't take this as disrespect Kola, I just want to pick your brain and see if you have any substance to your ideas.
Peace
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Going of the top, stature wasn't a factor in the construction of the plot. Its based on measurements taken from all four limb segments, as well as the trunk. Trenton is the author and the name of the study is, Post cranial evidence of cold adaptation in Neanderthals.
Okay so the study appears to be about cold adaptation in Neanderthals, and??... By the way, that study was discussed several times before.
It would help if you'd verbalize, what exactly you're debating, and what issue you have with what was said. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that they had characteristics in common with Pygmies?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Just for humor, can you explain what this diagram is suppose to represent?? ^^ What do the x and y axes represent? I take it 'Egy' means Egyptian and 'Pyg' means Pygmy. They appear to share the same x coordinates but differing y coordinates with Egyptians being higher up. But then Egyptians seem to be in the middle of a -y/x slope between 'Sud' and 'Nub'. What do these latter two abbreviations represent??
Not exactly sure what would be funny about that, but PC II is related to overall size. As is implied by my initial post, re: Equidistantly to Sudanese groups, the two flanking dots represent ''Nubians'' and ''Sudanese'', meaning Kushites.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Notice Egyptians here clearly cluster close to Pygmies first and then 'American Blacks'. What do you think this means?
I’m not sure whether Egyptians are closer to Pygmies than to American blacks on that chart. The chart obviously depicts crural index, what’s with it?
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
KoKaKoLa
Let me start off by saying that No one should kill themselves.
Moving on, What we know about AE(Ancient Egypt) is that there culture derived from East African AND the Sahara regions. We have the Black Mummy that showed the mummification process that Egypt is Known for. Unless you have proof that East Africans were mummifying, this shows that AE was linked to regions that are in the west African region of Africa.
We also have Pyramids from West Africa, Are there any in East Africa outside of Egypt and Sudan?
does not this statue from Yorubas remind you of the Bes images from Egypt?
^Bes
What can be safely said about AE is that they were a coming together of Saharan and Nilotic Africans.
Peace
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
KoKaKoLa
There are Pygmies in Ethiopia?
Can you show us some pics of these Pygmies.
Can you also show us some studies that corroborate what you say, as in PROOF.
Your opinion does not mean much on these forums.
Peace
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by argyle104 (Member # 14634) on :
Swenet wrote to Djehuti aka "Ping Pong Pepe":
quote: Are you uncomfortable with the fact that they had characteristics in common with Pygmies?
Yes this Djehuti creature who is obsessed with people he calls "black Africans" is very uncomfortable with the idea that pygmies and the Ancient Egyptians have commonalities. It disturbs his mythical intraAfrican racial hierarchy.
Djehuti is one of the leading closet racists on this site. His postings revolve around his sick fantasy of a racial hierarchy within Africa where people whom he has often called bantu, pygmies, subsaharans are at the bottom.
He has become quite upset with other posters when they have said that the Ancient Egyptians share commonnalities with each other outside of being Africans.
He has stated often that Africans of the northeast of the continent share little with the people he calls "subsaharans".
He has also become passionately enraged whenever other posters have said that slavery affected other Africans other than the people whom he calls "west" Africans.
No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for. And the location of Pwnt is far from being certain.
BTW, where do the AE claim to have come from Pwnt?
Didnt they call it Ta Netjer? Doesnt Ta Netjer means land of the Gods/Ancestors?
First of, how do you figure that "God" is interchangeable with "ancestors"?
Secondly, it should be read as "God", not "Gods"; the plural form of Neter is "Neteru"/"Neterou".
Thirdly, I have seen no evidence wherein the AE claim that they originated from Pwnt.
Fourthly, I haven't come across any AE text yet, that pointedly refers Pwnt as "Ta-Neter".
quote:
They imported Myhrr,Frankinscence, ivory and pigmies from there. Pnt was depicted with wild animals common to Africa.
Do pygmies live among the Beja?
quote: The puntites looked like the Ancient Egyptians. just like the Beja look like the Somalis and the Oromo..
Do you have any wall murals showing the "Beja" side by side with the AE? That would be the best way to tell if the AE saw it like you do.
quote: there was 2 ways to go there : road or boat (via the Red Sea)
this is obvious.
The Red Sea length spans Sudan all the way to Djibouti. It is the only other avenue to get to territories beyond Kush. This info doesn't make the precise location or extent of Pwnt "obvious".
So, do you think you are now up to the task of scientifically establishing your "Cushitic Speakers types"?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Ancient Egyptians WERE not related to Pigmies nor West Africans.
The REDDISH BROWNSKIN they have is common to CUSHITIC SPEAKERS. The Braids & AFROS they have is again common to Cushitic speakers.
i dont know what is going with you, but from their apparence, their culture & their language , they were clearly of cushitic speakers type.
I believe that Ancient Egyptian is a mixed language of the language of the Lower Egyptian who i suppose descent from the Natufians + Cushitic.
Pan africanists can kill themselves
You’re wrong. Egypt was a Pan-African civilization that included West Africans. In fact many of the sothern Nomes were probably made up of West African populations.
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Mentuhotep
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
The Humongus levels of Haplogroup B (M-60) in Siwa, Northern and Southern Egyptian samples, as well as E-M2 and E1b1b1b (E-M81), none of which are particularly linked with Beja groups (or Somalis for that matter), shoot his case right out the sky.
The paternal markers that Egyptians share with Beja peoples, is mostly E-M78, which is shared with Somali's and Ethiopians as well, but guess what, it cannot show the link you set out to establish, because other groups, who don't particularly look like Beja peoples (eg, Masalit), carry it in high percentages as well.
The ethnocentric East Africans, who like to claim the Egyptians for themselves, just keep rearing their heads, but everytime they come, they get their butts spanked and find no academic support. Sorry kid, the ancestors of the Beja peoples were just another sister population of the Ancient Egyptians, nothing more, nothing less. Its nothing special about them neither.
Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people. C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.
There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)
The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.
Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991) For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".
Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991) claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop. Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone. In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).
Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that: "An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".
As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).
In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY
This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.
There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.
COMPARATIVE METHOD
Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that "The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."
The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words. Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:
(1) vowels and consonants
(2) specific Paleo-African words
(3) common grammatical elements; and
(4) common syntactic elements.
The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.
HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.
African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)
The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels. This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:
I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).
Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:
Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT
Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.
Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.
In Parènte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.
PALEO-AFRICAN
African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language.
Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.
BLACKS IN WEST ASIA
In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).
Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.
This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:
Proximate Distant Finite
Dravidian i a u
Manding i a u
Sumerian bi a
Wolof i a u
The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items: Chief city,village black,burnt
Dravidian cira, ca uru kam
Elamite Salu
Sumerian Sar ur
Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'
Nubia sirgi mar
Egyptian Sr mer kemit
Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam
OBENGA
Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.
Language
Agaw asau, aso 'masculine
Sidama asu 'man'
Oromo asa id.
Caffino aso id.
Yoruba so 'produce'
Meroitic s' man
Fonge sunu id.
Bini eso 'someone'
Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'
Swahili (m)zee 'old person'
Egyptian sa 'man'
Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'
Azer se 'individual, person'
Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':
Language
Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye
Mbosi yaa Bisa gye
Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu
Caffino wa Peul yah, yade
There is t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and g =/= k.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
Galla senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'
In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.
Here we have shown the methods Anta Diop has used to rediscover the long and great history of Africans in Africa and the world. This methods allow us to reconstruct the Paleo-African culture formerly practiced by Africans in Africa, Asia and the Americas.
It also shows that West Africans and Cushitic speakers share common terms for the principal items of culture because they were all part of the Pan-African Egytian civilization.
Posted by The Old Doctore (Member # 18546) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by KING:
The Explorer
This website says a little about AE coming from Punt:
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Well, actually I had a primary Kemetic/Egyptic text in mind, which supposedly professes that the AE came from Pwnt. I know about AE reverential attitudes towards "Ta-Neter" ~ the "land of God" [some have read this as the "Divine Land"], and word about this being reference to territory "south of Kemet". However beyond that, and short of speculations in some quarters, I haven't seen any concrete demonstration of the precise location of the ancestral land as it was understood by the AE themselves.
I will give you props though, for having some gut to give some form of an answer, which is much more than I can say for the topic opener.
Most of the evidence that I've been able to look over points to an Eastern Sudanese, Eritrean, Northern Ethiopian location, for the Land of Punt.
Disputes over Punt's location have gone on for decades. Punt (pronounced Poont), archaeologists have said, was in Mozambique, or Somalia; or on the Sinai Peninsula or in Yemen, or somewhere in Western Asia where Israel, Lebanon and Syria now lie.
Narrowing the search at a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
The Land of Punt, the scientist said, must have existed in eastern North Africa - either in the region where Ethiopia and Eritrea confront each other, or east of the Upper Nile in a lowland area of eastern Sudan.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The God Amma West Africa and Asia
The God Amman/Amma links many African groups and the Dravidian people of India who originated in Africa. This god was probably worshipped by Saharan people who probably created a great civilization in Middle Africa probably long before the rise of ancient Egypt.
The Dravidian god Amma(n) is associated with the ram god: Amun/Amon. In addition to Amman, being associated with goddesses, in DED 183 we find that Amman also means ‘uncle, wife’s father’ and etc.. This makes it clear that the term Amman was associated with both goddesses and honored—high respected men.
The earliest representation of the ram god appeared in the Sahara, the homeland of the Dravidians, Elamites, Sumerians, the Egyptians and other Black African groups. It was in the Sahara that we see the first example of the ram holding a disc or sphere which came to symbolize the Egyptian god Amon. These ancient people were called Kushites are associated with the Proto-Saharan cultures and the C-Group. Due to the association of Amon with the Kushites, the Priestess of Amon, had to be a Kushite.
Diop has made it clear that Amon was the god of Black Africa. Among the Dravidians Amon was called Amman. Mrs. T. Aravanan, made it clear that the Pandyan people of Kumarinadu worshipped the goddess Kumari Amman. Kumarinadu, according to tradition was ruled by the Pandians/ Pandyans. She says that Kumarinadu was situated south of present-day South India.
The Dravidian literary evidence indicate that Dravidians, probably speaking Tamil, invanded South India from Kumarinadu. In Kalittokai 104, we read “In order to compensate the area lost to the great waves of the sea, King Paandia without tiresome moved to the other countries and won them. Removing the emblems of tiger [Cholas] and bow [Cheras] he, in their places inscribed his reputed emblem fish [Pandias] and valiantly made his enemies bow to him”.
The mention of the “fish emblem” in the Kalittokai provides textual support to the African origin of the Dravidians. Many peoples in the Western Sahara claim that they are descendants of the Ma [Fish] Confederation or Mande clan. Thus we have the Mande people of West Africa, and the Dogon who claim descent from Mande. It is interesting to note that among the Kannanda, Telugu and Tulu the term : Mande or Mandi, denotes persons or people.
The leading tribes of that claim descent from Ma include the Dogon and Mande. Before the introduction of Islam, the Mande worshipped Athene or Neith and Amon. They called Neith, Nia and Amon was called N’ama.
The Dogon called Amon, Amma. Accoridng to the Dogon Amma descends from the sky and is a symbol of humidity and rain. The Dogon Amma, is analogous to KumariAmman of the Tamil.
Pandia association with the fish, associates these Tamils with other ancient Blacks descending from the Ma Clan. Fish tails, were a common feature of the Egyptians, Elamites, Sumerians and Proto-Dravidians. The common god of the Fish Clan was the manfish (of Eridu) in Mesopotamia and Syria and the ithyphallic forms of Min, proto-type of Amon in Egypt, the goddess Minaksi of Madura, the goddess of the fish eyes, the Malabar fish bearer of Mana and the sacred fishes of the Mapilla of the West coast of the Dekkan.The Dogon,claim they came from the great Nommo, who was represented by fish signs. The Kings of people descending from the Ma Confederation were called MNS, e,g., Menes or King Aha of Egypt, Mannan among the Dravidians and Mansa, among the Mande speaking people of West Africa.
The Greeks claim that the father of the goddess Neith, who was worshipped by many Black African groups was Poseidon or potidan ‘ he who gives to drink the wooded mountain’ [boat]. Since Neith or Athene is said to have been born in the Proto-Sahara beside Lake Tritonis, we can assume that the worship of Poseidon was common among the people of the Ma Confederation. The symbol of Poseidon was the trident.
Poseidon seems to relate to an aspect of the Dravidian god Siva. The god Siva is sometimes referred to as the “Great Fish’ and represented by Fish signs. Throughout Tamilnadu tridents are found in association to temples, and the god Siva.
Just as the Kalittokai mentioned that the totem of the Pandia was the fish, we find that Africans along the Indian Ocean, which would have been part of Kumarinadu, worshipped Poseidon.
The Greeks reported that the people from the eastern coast of Africa worshipped Poseidon. According to Strabo, Eudoxus of Cyzicus reported the people Ethiopia to Somalia and Nubia were Icthiyophage who worshipped Poseidon. They often referred to Ethiopia and Somalia as Poseidonia.
In conclusion, the ancient Dravidians belonged to the Ma Confederation, and the Dravidian term Amman can refer to goddesses and male figures. The leaders of this Confederation founded many ancient civilizations which had the Fish as their standard. The worship of Amman originated in the Sahara where the early worship of Poseidon probably also originated given the fact his daughter was Neith/Athene. The Pandia/Pandyans called their god KumariAmma(n), like other followers of the Ma Confederation.
Due to the relationship between Amma, and fishes and the sea, we find that at Kodikarai, there is a Dravidian custom that the ship crews worship Mariammon before they go out to sea.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: The chronicling of the political unification of the various African ethnic groups and clans of the ancient Nile valley into a unified nation is clearly delineated in the Text/Tablet of Narmer:
The Front Side:
A) The first word is at the very top, inside the ideograph of the palace, and contains the name Narmer:
Nar(catfish) mer (chisel). And NO, it does not mean that he was a chiseling catfish! You can get Jan Assman's interpretation of the name in his book...
B) The figure to the right of the conquering king-wearing the white crown of Upper Egypt-, the one where Horus is astride and doing exactly what Diop suggests, as Assman points out, represents the conquest of the Delta or Lower Egypt.
C) The king's servant is identified as "Sashat-the goddess of writing, and I presume, the one who is chronicling all of this. (No, the sandal-bearer wasn't a servant god but merely a scribe.)
The people being subdued (compelled to unite) as well as the ones shown fleeing the land have Black African hairstyles, and many Egyptologists suggest that they represent the original Black African Anu ethnic rulers of the Two Lands.
D) the two figures below the "border" of Egypt represent the determinative "Kher" which means "fall, defeat, slaughter" and is preceded by another glyph which means "Uhan" or "overthrown, throw-down" (Coptic: Ouwdjn/Ouwgan)(also Sdjen).
The Back Side:
A) The first important word on this side is the word Tht;or Tjt; or Tet which means "to assemble" and is obviously referring to the assembled group of four figures bearing Black African totems, as Diop points out.
B) Above the slain enemies- I imagine those who opposed political unification - are the images of
1) a boat with its sails down, which means a journey down river
and
2) of Horus in front of an emblem which Assman interprets as meaning 'gate' - These conquerors would later be identified as the "Shemsu Hor" or the followers of Horus, the Mesnitu ('blacksmiths') and who later claimed that they were from the land of Punt (evidence of the existence of at least two ruling African ethnic groups; Anu and later, the Mesnitu)...
C) The next word, a very large version at that, of two creatures with the twisting long necks is "Kaes" or "Kasu" which means 'to bind or fetter,' Qes/Kes - restrain, bind
which I think indicates the obvious, that the union of the two lands was carried out through armed struggle.
(It has been suggested that the 'formal' union was firmly established by another warrior king, Aha. )
D) the last image is the one that confirms Diops assessment...
1) The bull breaking down the walled city's fortified wall and stomping the Asiatic represents the king. The word inside the wall "Abominable" (IE, "city of the abominables") is a term the Kememu used to describe the Asian or White peoples, especially.
It seems obvious that the Kememu did not regard these peoples as a legitimate part of their ethnic population. It's Kememu ideology...
ref: --The Mind of Egypt: History and Meaning in the Time of the Pharaohs by Jan Assmann, Andrew Jenkins (Translator) --The African Origin of Civilization by C.A. Diop --The Mdu Ntr (Budge, Gardiner, etc...)
▬ ▬ ▬
Fiopy (aka Pepi II) 6th Egyptian family dynasty king...
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wally: A fractal is a pattern that repeats itself at different scales. It is ideal for modeling nature: a tree is a branch of a branch of a branch; mountains are peaks within peaks; clouds are puffs of puffs, and so on. But modern computer scientists aren't the only ones to use fractals: Africans have been using them for centuries to design textiles, sculptures, architecture, hairstyles and more.
Pyramids in Sudan - Egypt
Sudan - Gonder (Ethiopia) - Great Zimbabwe
Kerma city (Sudan) - Lunda houses (Congo) - Tigray (Ethiopia)
... [b]In the ancient Western Sudan (aka West Africa)- Songhai, Ghana...
West Africans lived in ancient Egypt. Egypt was a Pan-African civilization.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Old Doctore:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by KING:
The Explorer
This website says a little about AE coming from Punt:
Also many people claim that The Name of Punt, lends to people thinking that Egyptians came from there meaning "Land of ancestors", or as Aboubacry Moussa LAM's translated it, translated "Original earth/home"
Peace
Well, actually I had a primary Kemetic/Egyptic text in mind, which supposedly professes that the AE came from Pwnt. I know about AE reverential attitudes towards "Ta-Neter" ~ the "land of God" [some have read this as the "Divine Land"], and word about this being reference to territory "south of Kemet". However beyond that, and short of speculations in some quarters, I haven't seen any concrete demonstration of the precise location of the ancestral land as it was understood by the AE themselves.
I will give you props though, for having some gut to give some form of an answer, which is much more than I can say for the topic opener.
Most of the evidence that I've been able to look over points to an Eastern Sudanese, Eritrean, Northern Ethiopian location, for the Land of Punt.
Disputes over Punt's location have gone on for decades. Punt (pronounced Poont), archaeologists have said, was in Mozambique, or Somalia; or on the Sinai Peninsula or in Yemen, or somewhere in Western Asia where Israel, Lebanon and Syria now lie.
Narrowing the search at a recent meeting in Oakland of the American Research Center in Egypt three scientists announced with confidence they had ruled out all of those five locations, and there was no disagreement from the 300 archaeologists there.
The Land of Punt, the scientist said, must have existed in eastern North Africa - either in the region where Ethiopia and Eritrea confront each other, or east of the Upper Nile in a lowland area of eastern Sudan.
Check out my recent thread on the location of Pwnt.
^It can clearly be identified with particular polities in the Eritrean lowlands and southeastern Sudan. Yemen has NOT been ruled out either, yet Yemen in that sense wouldn't be mutually exclusive (culturally and demographically) from Eritrea since the latter is undeniably connected to Punt.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
Going after easy targets, are you, KoKaKoLa? Why is it still taking you ages to deliver on simple material that I requested of you.
You are wrong about the Nagadans. They could not have been pastoralists; Dynastic Egypt was a sedentary agricultural society, not a "pastoralist" sedentary society.
Your constricted understanding of 'west Africans' tells me that you have never met 'west Africans' before. Why are you obsessed with 'west Africans' anyhow? They certainly more closely related to the Beja et al. than those Dravidians you are so excited about.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The Humongus levels of Haplogroup B (M-60) in Siwa, Northern and Southern Egyptian samples, as well as E-M2 and E1b1b1b (E-M81), none of which are particularly linked with Beja groups (or Somalis for that matter), shoot his case right out the sky.
The paternal markers that Egyptians share with Beja peoples, is mostly E-M78, which is shared with Somali's and Ethiopians as well, but guess what, it cannot show the link you set out to establish, because other groups, who don't particularly look like Beja peoples (eg, Masalit), carry it in high percentages as well.
The ethnocentric East Africans, who like to claim the Egyptians for themselves, just keep rearing their heads, but everytime they come, they get their butts spanked and find no academic support. Sorry kid, the ancestors of the Beja peoples were just another sister population of the Ancient Egyptians, nothing more, nothing less. Its nothing special about them neither.
Beja live in Egypt. Beja were in Egypt BEFORE Ancient Egypt and they are still there After Ancient Egypt. West Africans WERE NOT in Egypt. and NEVER settled. Modern Nubians and Egyptians DO NOT cluster with West Africans. West africans genes are almost inexistant among those populations.
West africans are mostly agriculturists. Agricultutrists tend to have a low migration rate. Naqadan were pastoralists. Pastoralism is common into East Africa NOT west africa
Question: what west african tribe wears Afros and Braids. and have a Reddish brown skintone of Dravidian type?
Yeah yeah, come back when you can bring something other to the table than your anecdotal examples about skin color, hairstyles and Pastoralism. Perhaps you don't understand the significance of what I've just said to you. Do you realize that haplogroup B is virtually negligible above the Sahara? Haplogroup B is particularly associated with Pygmies and Nilo-Saharan speakers, and numerous Modern Egyptian samples show it in substantial frequencies.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Haplogroup B is particularly associated with Pygmies and Nilo-Saharan speakers, and numerous Modern Egyptian samples show it in high frequencies.
Do you have a source for this? Because if you do it's a very intriguing finding.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Truth take a look here, and for kokakola, M-60 in the first slide is Haplogroup B:
quote:Originally posted by astenb: All the charts are correct, the samples come from different studies in different areas DUMBASSS. Egyptians from Aswan will have different Y-DNA frequencies and phenotype from those for PORT SAID in the Sinai where that second sample was taken from.
White Nord - Note the high presence of Nilotic maker B-M60 (B2a1a) in Egypt. Now go to the Wikipedia article on Egyptian DNA or Haplgroup B and ask why it only shows 2% Haplogroup B in Egypt?
B2a1a @ 28% found in Northern Egyptians here too.
Why are dishonest Euroclown White nord people like you vandalizing articles to remove pertinent details on a populations connection to their southern neighbors? If you cant defeat it you deleted it.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Obviously its because Egyptians are mixed with Nubians.
hassan (2008)
Sure
You're just lying your ass off. Hassan said the COMPLETE opposite. Additionally, the Egyptians Hassan spoke of are Copts who migrated to Sudan. The slides I posted did not even involve those Egyptian immigrants.
Since you brought them up, this is what Hassan had to say about them:
quote:"The relatively high-effective population size of the Copts is unlikely to have been influenced by their recent history in the Sudan. The current communities are known to be largely the product of recent migrations from Egypt over the past two centuries"
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Thanks for the charts, Swenet.
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Obviously its because Egyptians are mixed with Nubians.
And they probably have been for thousands of years. Nubia is just upriver of Egypt, so intermingling between the two populations (which weren't that different from each other to begin with) would have been inevitable.
Who's to say the Beja aren't also mixed with Haplogroup B-carrying Nilotes anyway?
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
These people are the Anu or pygmies who first ruled Egypt.
The 83% of the pygmies carry haplogroup B. They have left their imprint on the people of Egypt and Nubia
Wikipedia
quote:
DistributionHaplogroup B is localized to sub-Saharan Africa, especially to tropical forests of West-Central Africa. After Y-haplogroup A, it is the second oldest and one of the most diverse human Y-haplogroups. It was the ancestral haplogroup of not only modern Pygmies like the Baka and Mbuti, but also Hadzabe from Tanzania, who often have been considered, in large part because of some typological features of their language, to be a remnant of Khoisan people in East Africa.
According to one study of the Y-DNA of populations in Sudan, haplogroup B is found in approximately 30% (16/53) of Southern Sudanese, 16% (5/32) of local Hausa people, 14% (4/28) of the Nuba of central Sudan, 3.7% (8/216) of Northern Sudanese (but only among Copts and Nubians), and 2.2% (2/90) of Western Sudanese.[5] According to another study, haplogroup B is found in approximately 15% of Sudanese males, including 12.5% (5/40) B2a1a-M109/M152 and 2.5% (1/40) B-M60(xB1a-M146, B2a-M150, B2b-M112).[7]
In Madagascar, haplogroup B has been found in approximately 9% of Malagasy males, including 6% (2/35) B-M60(xB2b-50f2(P)) and 3% (1/35) B2b-50f2(P).[10]
The evidence supports the spread of people from Egpyto-Nubia to West Africa.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
West Africans resemble ancient Egyptians.
This supports the view that the Egyptians and Black Africans are genetically related. This hypothesis led to the corrolary hypothesis that, the Black Africans and Egyptians spoke similar languages.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Linguistic Methods of Chiekh Anta Diop
By
Clyde Winters
Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people. C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.
There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)
The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.
Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991) For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".
Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991) claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop. Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone. In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).
Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that: "An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".
As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).
In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY
This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.
There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.
COMPARATIVE METHOD
Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that "The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."
The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words. Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:
(1) vowels and consonants
(2) specific Paleo-African words
(3) common grammatical elements; and
(4) common syntactic elements.
The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.
HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.
African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)
The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels. This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:
I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).
Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:
Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT
Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.
Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.
In Parènte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.
PALEO-AFRICAN
African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language.
Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.
BLACKS IN WEST ASIA
In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).
Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.
This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:
Proximate Distant Finite
Dravidian i a u
Manding i a u
Sumerian bi a
Wolof i a u
The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items: Chief city,village black,burnt
Dravidian cira, ca uru kam
Elamite Salu
Sumerian Sar ur
Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'
Nubia sirgi mar
Egyptian Sr mer kemit
Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam
OBENGA
Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.
Language
Agaw asau, aso 'masculine
Sidama asu 'man'
Oromo asa id.
Caffino aso id.
Yoruba so 'produce'
Meroitic s' man
Fonge sunu id.
Bini eso 'someone'
Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'
Swahili (m)zee 'old person'
Egyptian sa 'man'
Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'
Azer se 'individual, person'
Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':
Language
Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye
Mbosi yaa Bisa gye
Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu
Caffino wa Peul yah, yade
There is t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and g =/= k.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
Galla senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'
In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.
Here we have shown the methods Anta Diop has used to rediscover the long and great history of Africans in Africa and the world. This methods allow us to reconstruct the Paleo-African culture formerly practiced by Africans in Africa, Asia and the Americas.
It also shows that West Africans and Cushitic speakers share common terms for the principal items of culture because they were all part of the Pan-African Egyptian civilization.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Egypt was a Pan-African civilization that included West Africans. In fact many of the sothern Nomes were probably made up of West African populations.
Inyotef 1
Wm. E. Welmers identified the Niger Congo home land. Welmers in "Niger-Congo Mande", Current trends in Linguistics 7 (1971), pp.113-140,explained that the Niger-Congo homeland was in the vicinity of the upper Nile valley (p.119). He believes that the Westward migration began 5000 years ago.
In support of this theory he discusses the dogs of the Niger-Congo speakers. This is the unique barkless Basenji dogs which live in the Sudan and Uganda today, but were formerly recorded on Egyptian monuments (Wlemers,p.119). According to Welmers the Basanji, is related to the Liberian Basenji breed of the Kpelle and Loma people of Liberia. Welmers believes that the Mande took these dogs with them on their migration westward. The Kpelle and Loma speak Mande languages.
He believes that the region was unoccupied when the Mande migrated westward. In support of this theory Welmers' notes that the Liberian Banji dogs ,show no cross-breeding with dogs kept by other African groups in West Africa, and point to the early introduction of this cannine population after the separation of the Mande from the other Niger-Congo speakers in the original upper Nile homeland for this population. As a result, he claims that the Mande migration occured before these groups entered the region.
Homburger made it clear that the Fula language was related to the Egyptians of the 12th Dynasty. This is interesting because we find that at this time new rulers came to power in Egypt from the South. This period is often called the Middle Kingdom.
Many of these “southerners” probably included many people who later settled West Africa. As noted earlier the marker for the spread of the Niger-Congo speakers is the basanji dog. The hieroglyphic for "dog," in fact, as evidenced on a stele from the Middle Kingdom of Egypt, derives from the basenji. In just a few strokes, the engraver captures the key characteristics: pricked ears, curled tail and graceful carriage. It is probably no coincidence that the Basanji was see as the principal dog it probably represents the coming of power of the Niger-Congo speakers in ancient Egypt.
We know that in African societies great ancestors are made into “gods”. This is interesting because Wally has discovered a number of African ethnonyms among the gods of Egyptian nomes.
quote:
Originally posted by Wally:
Ethnic names in the Mdu Ntr
Tutsi Tutsi "the assembled gods"; "all of them (gods)"
Akan Akan - the name of a god Akaniu - a class of gods like Osiris
Fante Fante - "he of the nose" - a name of Thoth - one of the 42 judges in the Hall of Osiris ("Shante" in modern Egyptian)
Hausa Hosa - a singing god
Yoruba Ourbaiu - great of souls, a title of gods or kings Ouruba - Great God of soul
The permutations of names of such folks as the Wolof or the Fulani are so many, that it requires the effort of those who speak the language, to properly interpret the names -ie, Djoloff, Oulof, etc. and then look for their meanings in Budge's dictionary...
It would be quite interesting if these nomes were formerly prominent southern nomes who gained prominence once the Inyotefs came to power.
Between 2258 2052 BC civil war broke out among the nobles of Egypt. During this period of disunity there was much suffering in the land and many of the fine cultural developments of the Old Kingdoms were discarded or rarely practiced. This period of chaos is called the "First Intermediate Period". A person who lived during this hard time named Iperwer, wrote Great and humble say: "I wish I might die". Little children cry out: "I never should have been born". Also during this time Lower Egypt was invaded by Asian people who ruled there for a long time.
During this period of decline it was the Southerners who made it possible for the raise of Egypt back into a world power. These Southerners were called "Inyotefs", they lived around a city in Upper Egypt called "Thebes". Inyotef I founded the 11th Dynasty and made Thebes his capital.Inyotef declared himself king c 2125-2112 BC.
Inyotef I opposed Ankhtify of Heracleopolitan who he defeated. It was Inyotef who consolidated power in the south. Inyotef II (Wahankh) also fought the Heracleopolitans. He loved dogs especially the basenji.
Egyptian Basenji Dog Hieroglyph
I believe that some of the southern nomes led by the Inyotefs were composed of people who later migrated to West Africa after the Romans came to power. The Thebians were closely united with the Nubians.
Inyotef I was the father Mentuhotep I. Several of the wives of Mentuhotep II were Nubians. Under Mentuhotep, the delta chiefs were defeated and Egypt was united again into one country.
Mentuhotep
Under the Amenemhet I, of the Xllth dynasty the capital was moved form Thebes to Lisht near Memphis. This dynasty and those thereafter are called the Middle Kingdom.
MIDDLE KINGDOM
It took strong leadership for the Egyptians to re establish the greatness of Egypt and the establishment of safe and secure borders.
The rulers during the Middle Kingdom were mostly men from the military. They frequently made raids into foreign lands in search of booty. And for the first time in Egyptian history a permanent army was founded to protect Egypt and keep it strong.
Amon became the major God of the Egyptians during the Middle Period. Amon was recognized at this time as the God of all Gods. This Amon was also called Amma by the Proto Saharans.
It is interesting to note that the Mande and other West African people like the Dogon and Dravidians worshipped the god Amma.
The fact that Mande, Wolof and Fula are related to Egyptian is probably due to the fact that when the Inyotefs took over Egypt the ancestors of these groups live in southern Egypt/Upper Kush. This would explain 1) the relationship between the Fula and Egyptian language of the 12th Dynasty 2) the introduction of the worship of Aman to the Egyptians a god worshipped by many Niger-Congo speakers, 3) the presence of Egyptian gods for selected nomes bearing West African ethnonyms and 4)the love of the basenji dog by the 12th Dynasty Egyptians.
Egypt was indeed a Pan-African civilization
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Clyde, could you please stop reitorating your 5 page long posts? You've already posted that on the previous page of this thread, and it makes navigating through the thread a pain.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Clyde, could you please stop reitorating your 5 page long posts? You've already posted that on the previous page of this thread, and it makes navigating through the thread a pain.
No. Some people may only read this page so it is good policy to repost major points of the discussion so new readers will become aware of the major issues of the present debate.
Posters who already read this material will skip it.
.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
yoruba girls
Do you even check your sources? Those women are from South Africa.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: the phenotype of the ancient egyptians is the complete opposite of the west africans anyway its supported by the facts that modern egyptians and sudanese dont cluster with western africans, genetically speaking
Clearly the ancient Egyptians were more closely to Beja-speakers than to contemporary West Africans. What is false is that they had "Eurasian features" as they grouped with other Africans before they did "Eurasians", and differed markedly from Eurasians in post-cranial characteristics. "Genetically-speaking", West Africans and East Africans are definitely related. I have no idea where you got the idea that they weren't.
Posted by KING (Member # 9422) on :
Sundjata
Thanks for your Eye Opening post that shows that Egyptians, East Africans and West Africans are related genetically etc.
Kola is an Joker, he tries to claim the phenotype of Egyptians being the opposite of West Africans, when we have the Fulani, Mossi, Tuareg, Igbo Etc who have phenotypes no different from some Egyptians and Nubians. Then he post a pic of South African, and tries to pass it off as Yorubas...What an Joker. Also Kola has not shown ONE study that agrees with him and he has yet to post the Pygmies in Ethiopia.
I really have no clue why it is so hard for Africans to get along like Brothers, We see divison among them and hate filled posts directed at West East etc. This Kola guy is an East Africancentrist who thinks West Africans have no Claim to Egypt but he does because he thinks that Punt was in the Horn.
We also Know that Majority of Ancient West Africans, lived closer in the sahara at the time of AE and they have traits that link them to what is Found in Egypt and Sudan.
Last thing is that Kola has yet to show us Pyramids in East Africa, like there is in West Africa. Hopefully he will start showing us these things if he wants to be taken serious.
Peace
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^None of the picture/photo eyeball anthropology means anything. What counts is the scientific data of tropical limb proportions which are deeply embedded genetically. On this basis the ancient Egyptians cluster much more closely with fellow tropical Africans than Europeans or "Middle easterners." Nothing will change this fact.
The so-called "Beja type" is not only vague but dubious. Can anyone scientifically identify what is a "Beja type"?
But if they wanna do pictures, there are plenty of pictures showing Egyptians resemble tropical Africans..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: The Egyptian/Beja connection is definitely there. Toby Wilkinson and others are on to something in finding the roots to Egyptian civilization in the Eastern desert (Beja territory). No surprise Kendall and the people at the Oriental Institute think Qustul comes from the same tradition.
This is true if the Beja or their direct ancestors inhabited the region or are somehow the same as or close relatives of the ancient Medjay. I have noticed the Eastern Desert connection also considering that the early centers of Naqada seemed to be associated with the ithyphallic god Min who is known as 'The Lord of the Eastern Desert'.
As for the Qustul culture being derived from the area. Well area of the Eastern Desert that Wilkinson uncovered lay in the south and thus the southeast of Egypt which is close to Nubian Qustul. However, he did not uncover any proto-hieroglyphs in the area like those found in the Qustul region, and even pharaonic motifs in the rock carvings in the area such as the Nile boat and ka symbol with upraised arms appear earlier in Lower Nubia with the earliest evidence of the former (the boat) being found farther south in the Khartoum Mesolithic. Indeed Wilkinson attributes the pastoral culture of these eastern desert people with Nilotic people in Sudan and other areas which is why I don't get his contradictory claims of 'black' Nubians etc. In fact it is such cultural commonalities as well as the dating of the eastern desert art to the earliest time period of Naqada I that leads me to believe Naqada along with Qustul are branches of the Sudanese neolithic and that the Qustul culture is older since it displays evidence of royal cult including complex burials before Naqada did.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Didnt they call it Ta Netjer? Doesnt Ta Netjer means land of the Gods/Ancestors?
They imported Myhrr,Frankinscence, ivory and pigmies from there. Pnt was depicted with wild animals common to Africa. Myrrh is only common to East Africa & the arabian peninsula East Africans always exported those kind of produts (ivory, frankinscence)...
The puntites looked like the Ancient Egyptians. just like the Beja look like the Somalis and the Oromo..
there was 2 ways to go there : road or boat (via the Red Sea)
this is obvious.
Even if the Egyptians did have ancestry farther south, that did not mean they were same as modern Cushitic speakers or their ancestors. Related yes but not the same.
quote:Cushitic refers to a language group. yes.
but all the cushitic speakers LOOK the same and they have all the same CULTURE. The appearance of the Ancient Egyptians is the same with the Cushitic Speakers.
This is a broad generalization. There is and likely was no one conformed look for Cushitic speakers which ancient Egyptians were not even! Even the Egyptians varied in looks from region to region!
quote:Ancient Egyptians WERE not related to Pigmies nor West Africans.
Of course they were. They share a number of lineages in common as well as traditions which can only be explained via the Sahara when it was once green and fertile.
quote:The REDDISH BROWNSKIN they have is common to CUSHITIC SPEAKERS. The Braids & AFROS they have is again common to Cushitic speakers.
More nonsensical stereotyping. There are reddish-brown skinned people in West Africa with afros and braids as well.
quote:i dont know what is going with you, but from their apparence, their culture & their language , they were clearly of cushitic speakers type.
I believe that Ancient Egyptian is a mixed language of the language of the Lower Egyptian who i suppose descent from the Natufians + Cushitic.
Pan africanists can kill themselves
Nothing is going on with me but I could ask the same of YOU since what you believe is irrelevant to the facts!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:Originally posted by KING: KoKaKoLa
Just to throw a Wrench into some peoples arguements, Were There Pygmies in The Horn region of East Africa?
I'm thinking you think that the Horn was where the Egyptians pointed to as saying they came from.
One thing we can safely say, is that Punt was not from Arabia, Punt was probably in the Area closest to either Sudan, Chad, Kenya, Uganda since this is where we hear Pygmies were Living in Africa back in those days. To make statements that Punt was found in the Somali regions, can also be probable, but we really never hear of Pygmies coming from that part of East Africa.
Don't take this as disrespect Kola, I just want to pick your brain and see if you have any substance to your ideas.
Peace
Indeed, let see if you have any substance.
Are Chad and Uganda bordered by the Red Sea or Any sea? Last time i checked, there are Pigmies in Ethiopa..
There are Pygmies in Ethiopia? Not that I doubt the claim but I just haven't heard of Pygmies present in that country. There are Pygmies who are native to Uganda called Twa and Uganda is awfully close to Ethiopia. In fact there is evidence of Twa presence especially in the past in southern Sudan right next to Ethiopia so the possibility exists.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: It would help if you'd verbalize, what exactly you're debating, and what issue you have with what was said. Are you uncomfortable with the fact that they had characteristics in common with Pygmies?
Not at all. Actually, I was going to ask you the same-- to verbalize exactly what YOU mean. Are you acknowledging the clustering together with Pygmies as a pathetic attempt of refuting the data that Egyptians were Africans or are you trying to make some valid point about the skeletal builds??
quote:Not exactly sure what would be funny about that, but PC II is related to overall size. As is implied by my initial post, re: Equidistantly to Sudanese groups, the two flanking dots represent ''Nubians'' and ''Sudanese'', meaning Kushites.
I see. You are being serious, then nevermind. I still don't like how the author (Holliday?) labels a 'Sudanese' group and a 'Kushite' group. Last time I checked Kushites WERE Sudanese which makes me wonder what he considers 'Sudanese'. I guess southern Sudanese, even though such groups ranged farther north in the ancient past.
Can you explain to me the chart or at least cite the paper it comes from??
quote:I’m not sure whether Egyptians are closer to Pygmies than to American blacks on that chart. The chart obviously depicts crural index, what’s with it?
The chart shows a correlation between mean annual temperature and limb proportions in general. I'm not sure which measurements the chart is based since I merely copied the chart from another thread, but it looks similar to a chart based on Trinkhaus's findings also on limb-length proportions and climate adaptation with striking differences between Neanderthals and early modern humans.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by KING: KoKaKoLa
Let me start off by saying that No one should kill themselves.
Moving on, What we know about AE(Ancient Egypt) is that there culture derived from East African AND the Sahara regions. We have the Black Mummy that showed the mummification process that Egypt is Known for. Unless you have proof that East Africans were mummifying, this shows that AE was linked to regions that are in the west African region of Africa.
We also have Pyramids from West Africa, Are there any in East Africa outside of Egypt and Sudan?
does not this statue from Yorubas remind you of the Bes images from Egypt?
^Bes
What can be safely said about AE is that they were a coming together of Saharan and Nilotic Africans.
Peace
Ancient Egyptians share many genetic lineages as well as cultural traditions with West Africans. Genetic lineages such as paternal E1b1a, maternal L3i, and autosomes like Benin HBS all point to West African influence. The Egyptians also had many traditions found and practiced in West Africans that is not found in East Africa 'Cushitic speaking' or not! Traditions such as wearing wigs including wigs made from plant fiber that give a 'straight haired' appearance, animal masks worn in certain cermonies, grass aprons or skirts also worn during certain ceremonies, fertility paddle dolls for girls, having statues specifically busts of dead ancestors in the home, the belief in a person having 5 or more spirit parts etc. etc.
The only explanation for this would be a shared heritage in the Sahara when it was once green and fertile. In fact archaeology shows that West Africa was sparsely inhabited during the Holocene Wet phase with the ancestors of most West Africans living in the Sahara at that time when it was green and fertile.
The problem with Coo-Coo-cola is that he is stuck on this East African Cushitic pride (perhaps supremacy) scheme! Ancient Egypt may not be 'Pan African' NO African culture is, but it is STILL very much African and more culturally diverse than Coo-Coo believes!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Koo-Koo-KoLa: West africans do not ressemble Ancient Egyptians
They had eurasian features..
Now I know the kook has lost it!
West Africans with so-called "Eurasian" features:
quote:(light-skinned) Beja girls
(light-skinned) Mauritanian girls
quote:queen tiye
beja girl
Actually a better comparison to Queen Tiye would be this Beja woman here.
All your comparisons to 'Yoruba' are strawman arguments! Besides as Sundjata pointed out one of your pictures of alleged 'Yoruba' are actually South Africans!
quote: completely ridiculous
The phenotype of the ancient egyptians is the complete opposite of the west africans anyway its supported by the facts that modern egyptians and sudanese dont cluster with western africans, genetically speaking
The only thing completely ridiculous are your claims above which are founded on nothing more narrow-minded stereotypes about western Africans as well as an ignorance of ancient history that connects western Africans to eastern Africans as well as northern Africans to Sub-Sahara!
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Are you acknowledging the clustering together with Pygmies as a pathetic attempt of refuting the data that Egyptians were Africans
Scratching my head. How exactly does comparing Egyptians to Pygmies make Egyptians NOT African, when their stature, among other things, is obviously associated with tropical rainforests.
quote:I still don't like how the author (Holliday?) labels a 'Sudanese' group and a 'Kushite' group. Last time I checked Kushites WERE Sudanese which makes me wonder what he considers 'Sudanese'. I guess southern Sudanese, even though such groups ranged farther north in the ancient past.
He doesn’t have a Sudanese and a Kushite group. He has a Nubian and a Sudanese group, the latter being remains from Kerma (Kushites). Most likely, his naming has something to do with Modern Egypt’s borders moving down a notch, making the Northern polity (Nubia) part of modern Egypt, not (or to a lesser extent) Sudan. Hence, Nubians and Sudanese.
quote:Can you explain to me the chart or at least cite the paper it comes from??
Already did. Cited the title, and you said ‘’so what, we’ve discussed it many times’’. You look for it in my previous post. Like I said, the 2nd component is related to overall size, the first, is related to linearity, and it (1st component) constitutes a spectrum from more ‘’tropical’’ builds to more ‘’cold adapted’’ builds.
BTW, you do know that I'm Kalonji, right?
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
The better question to ask, is whether you are serious, in masquerading those ladies as proto-type Eastern Desert Africans. So where is are your ancient light brown ''dravidian like'' Beja? lol.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:The Genetics proved that Egyptians dont cluster with west africans
Lucotte's 27%, E-M2 carrying Modern Egyptian subsample, doesn't cluster Haplotypically with E-M2 carrying West Africans? What about that 40% B-M60 carrying upper Egyptian subsample. They don't cluster haplotypically with M-60 carrying West and Central Africans?
The only thing you've proved, is that you're uninformed.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
KoKaKoLa please post some Egyptian sculpture
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Scratching my head. How exactly does comparing Egyptians to Pygmies make Egyptians NOT African, when their stature, among other things, is obviously associated with tropical rainforests.
I thought you were trying to say such a comparison means the study is flawed.
quote:He doesn’t have a Sudanese and a Kushite group. He has a Nubian and a Sudanese group, the latter being remains from Kerma (Kushites). Most likely, his naming has something to do with Modern Egypt’s borders moving down a notch, making the Northern polity (Nubia) part of modern Egypt, not (or to a lesser extent) Sudan. Hence, Nubians and Sudanese.
Sorry. I meant NUBIAN not 'Kushite' since the 'Nub' obviously meant Nubian. As for 'polity' Nubia itself is not a polity but a region that is in Sudan as it is in southern Egypt. Kush would be a polity.
quote: Cited the title, and you said ‘’so what, we’ve discussed it many times’’. You look for it in my previous post. Like I said, the 2nd component is related to overall size, the first, is related to linearity, and it (1st component) constitutes a spectrum from more ‘’tropical’’ builds to more ‘’cold adapted’’ builds.
BTW, you do know that I'm Kalonji, right?
Yes, I realize this now-- that you're Kalonji! LOL
I've been on vacation and haven't had much time to post here and haven't been keeping up.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I've been on vacation and haven't had much time to post here and haven't been keeping up.
No problem bro, sh!t happens. Any ideas on how to interpret that post cranial data?
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Have you seen the studies of Arredi & Wood about E-M2?
E-M2 map of Rosa
What was the Y chromosone profile of the sampled Egyptians in that study?
I've said it many times and I'll say it again. (Ancestors of) Pan grave Nubians (Medjay) were not a major factor in the peopling of Predynastic Egypt. I don't care what others say. Their teeth were large, unlike that of the Ancient Egyptians.
It is in the Western Desert, and on the Upper Egyptian border where we see for the first time evidence of the presence of the factors that reduce tooth size. Those advanced Western desert Africans later moved in on the already present, and less advanced Egyptian Nile Valley Africans.
The Western Desert emptied out during the Predynastic, and we see increases in population size along the Nile Valley around the exact same time, indicating that those Africans indeed settled along the Nile. The same can't be said about the Eastern Desert, which has always been inhabited from Pred, dyn and to present times. Dream on KokaKola, the facts speak for themselves.
Even one of the West African variants of sickle cell Anemia, which was detected in predynastic Ancient Egyptians mummies, and potentially in King Tut, is the most prevalent west of the Nile Valley, in Western Sudan. Indeed, in the very region I just mentioned, that went on to donate the substantial numbers of people.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Medjay ....Blemmyes.. Yeah i know. the Beja were part of Ancient Egypt themselves.
The Ancient Egyptians and the Medjay were sister populations, seperated for millenia, which is evinced by their teeth. It pains you, doesn't it?
quote:Benin sickle cell haplotype is also found in Southeastern europe where west africans genes are almost inexistant. it doesnt imply a west african origin.
The argument was used to silence the whole argument that Beja and Somali people were major factors in populating Egypt. Clearly it worked, because that argument you initially advocated is nowhere to be seen. I WOULD ask you what you mean with ''it'' doesn't imply a West African origin, but like how the other trolls operate, that request would likely go unanswered, and substituted with another round of picture spams, wherein West Africans are pitted against East Africans.
quote:Tut was definetely NOT a west african.
Strawman. Who do you think you're talking to, that you think you have to tell me that Tut was an Egyptian?
quote:Some beja can trace their lineage back to the pharaohs of the "New Kingdom" (who looked Beja by the way) and i dont think they are related to west africans.
Nobody cares what you think. Not if you profess to think that E-M78 carrying Beja's can ever be ''not related'', haplotypically, to E carrying West Africans, whatever their specific downstream mutation is. How can two Africans, who are united by the Pn2 transition, not be related, haplotypically? Do you have any idea how absurd that sounds?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QB]
quote:Medjay ....Blemmyes.. Yeah i know. the Beja were part of Ancient Egypt themselves.
The Ancient Egyptians and the Medjay were sister populations, seperated for millenia, which is evinced by their teeth. It pains you, doesn't it?
Hmm.. Not trying to rain on your parade, but I'm genuinely curious as to what studies were carried out on the pan-grave skeletons that would imply this? I ask because it's hard to imagine geographically contiguous populations (AE and ancestral Beja) being "separated for millenia".
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Hmm.. Not trying to rain on your parade, but I'm genuinely curious as to what studies were carried out on the pan-grave skeletons that would imply this? I ask because it's hard to imagine geographically contiguous populations (AE and ancestral Beja) being "separated for millenia".
What I'm basing it on:
quote:No domestic architectural features are known from the Pan Grave Culture. Camps only display open-air features. The physical population type is very specific, showing long isolation and archaic African features such as long jaws with large teeth, the third molars being the biggest. They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features. This made them very suitable for the warrior profession. Often weapons of Egyptian typology such as daggers and battle axes, as well as bowstrings and arrow tips are found in their graves. This documents the employment of those people as warriors of the 13th and early 17th Dynasties. Records of the 13th Dynasty show different Medjay delegations being received at court.
They were taller than the Egyptians and had strong muscular features.
^This contrasts sharply with (predynastic) Egyptians, especially Badarians, who are noted for their frail builds.
Clearly, seperate evolutionary paths implicated in these differences. Wouldn't you say so, KokaKola?
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^Yea, I ran across that website as well and still find the statement to be curious. Of course they were nomadic pastoralists, which can obviously explain their superior height and musculature (they drank more milk and lead a more mobile/rugged existence) and larger teeth (as their diet did not differ as much from their ancestral diet, we shouldn't expect as much mass reduction of the teeth), so I don't find the explanation that they must have underwent a period of "long isolation" (at least to the extent that they went on a separate "evolutionary path") particularly convincing. Kokakola, while generally misguided also makes a good point because even that very website mentions how pan-grave culture extended into Egypt proper. These people seem to have just been a segment of a larger population who preserved the semi-nomadic life-style of their forbears.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
I don't see how you can agree with the idea that food processing hadn't impacted on Medjay teeth much, yet at the same time, maintain that its not convincing that there were no differing evolutionary paths for the populations who went on to form the backbone of Ancient Egypt, and the ancestors of the Medjay.
Grain consumption, and the use of sickles are recorded at VERY early dates (Qadan culture). There are tons of things that I can mention, that would impact those Africans differently, evolutionarily speaking, than Eastern Desert Medjay, who, as you've just agreed upon, generally remained nomadic pastoralists.
The same for stature. Of course those things have their evolutionary explanations, but those differences wouldn't be as pronounced if repeated back and forth gene flow was sustained between, lets say, Badarians and pre-pan grave Egypto-Sudanese.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^The problem is that those aren't evolutionary processes that require so much time to manifest what are clearly physiological changes associated with life-style ("micro-evolution driven by dietary change" as opposed to a "separate evolutionary path"). Grain consumption wouldn't have been the driver as indeed the earliest Afrasans were collectors of wild grains yet Carlson and van Gerven's dental reduction hypothesis hinges on the shift to sedentary agriculture where an ARRAY of different agricultural food sources, requiring less energy to chew and process, facilitated the reduction rather rapidly (which is why Irish and Turner thought there was a complete population replacement in the Egyptian and lower "Nubian" Nile valley).
More importantly, the claim was made that the ancestral Beja were not influential in peopling Egypt and were "separated for millenia", yet pan-grave cemeteries are found in Egypt. Indeed, it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that they belonged to a community that had always inhabited the eastern side of the lower Nile valley. In fact, it is surmised by Ehret that the eastern side of the Nile valley would have been the migration path of the earliest Afrasan-speakers leaving the Horn, so yes, ancestral Beja-speakers diverged and isloated themselves but they would have been a part of the Egyptian empire, just as they were a part of Kerma and Meroe. The assimilation process would also see to it that those who did people Egypt in its earliest phases, lost the "archaic" features that distinguished them along with the rest of the larger population as they shifted life-style.
BTW, if you don't mean what I think you mean by "separate evolutionary path" (i.e. "genetic divergence"), then feel free to clarify.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Also.. Tuaregs (descendants of the Lybians) shows affinities with the Beja..via mtDNA.. funny no?
Ignoring your West Africa bashing, this seems to be an astute observation, actually. Tishkoff's data on autosomal gene frequencies also associate the Kel Tamasheq with the Beja. Using them as a proxy to estimate ancient Egyptian variation (especially in the south, as they would have been sandwiched in between these two ancestral populations), therefore seems quite intuitive. Difficulty will rest however, on establishing what the baseline variation was and how much the two populations differ from their ancestors (that the modern and ancient variation in Egypt is similar, but qualitatively different, is a given).
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:^The problem is that those aren't evolutionary processes that require so much time to manifest what are clearly physiological changes associated with life-style ("micro-evolution driven by dietary change" as opposed to "separate evolutionary path").
Again, I’m not being difficult here, but I fail to see what is the difference between those two things I’ve highlighted in your post, aside from your fancy anthropological terminology. The end result is the same; one party partakes in/is exposed to certain factors and the other party isn’t (or to a lesser degree). How does that not translate into two evolutionary paths?
quote:Grain consumption wouldn't have been the driver as indeed the earliest Afrasans were collectors of wild grains yet Carlson and van Gerven's dental reduction hypothesis hinges on the shift to sedentary agriculture where an ARRAY of different agricultural food sources,
Can you lay out to me, how what you said applies to what I’ve said, in that post you just responded to? I know you agree with the idea that a population whose ancestors have been consuming grain for a long time, are impacted differently than population who remain pastoralists, I mean, this is common sense. I don’t see how what you wrote, follows from what I’ve said.
quote:More importantly, the claim was made that the ancestral Beja were not influential in peopling Egypt and were "separated for millenia", yet pan-grave cemeteries are found in Egypt.
Indeed, they were separated for millennia, populationally speaking. I don’t see how Medjay burials in Egypt negate that fact, especially since those burials took place after the two populations differentiated. Notice that I am talking about them as populations, migration of individuals does not refute anything I’ve said, since I did not say, ‘’every single individual in both populations is, and remains separated for millennia’’. I’m talking about both populations as two abstract concepts
quote:yes, ancestral Beja-speakers diverged and isloated themselves but they would have been a part of the Egyptian empire,
^Come on Sundiata, you know you don’t disagree with anything I’ve said.
quote:The assimilation process would also see to it that those who did people Egypt in its earliest phases, lost the "archaic" features that distinguished them along with the rest of the larger population as they shifted life-style.
…..But then again, those assimilating Eastern Desert Africans, can’t really be called Eastern Desert Africans anymore, can they? The very word ‘’assimilation’’ denotes that you’d simply call them ‘’Egyptians’’. I presume you agree with this, but even if you don’t, what those migrants do, won’t affect the population they originated in. In other words, those migrants assimilate, but the environmental factors that impact both populations remain the same, and so, the ‘’evolutionary paths’’ are maintained.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Also.. Tuaregs (descendants of the Lybians) shows affinities with the Beja..via mtDNA.. funny no?
Ignoring your West Africa bashing, this seems to be an astute observation, actually. Tishkoff's data on autosomal gene frequencies also associate the Kel Tamasheq with the Beja. Using them as a proxy to estimate ancient Egyptian variation (especially in the south, as they would have been sandwiched in between these two ancestral populations), therefore seems quite intuitive. Difficulty will rest however, on establishing what the baseline variation was and how much the two populations differ from their ancestors (that the modern and ancient variation in Egypt is similar, but qualitatively different, is a given).
Of course this is simply reciting ''common knowledge''. The troll is mistaking posters on the forum for being idiots, and I think its a shame you don't see through that.
This observation has been discussed many times on ES, even way before I even was a member. Researchers other than Tishkoff have noted this relationship as well. I find it funny that this KokaKola character wants to inform ES posters of the fact that King Tut wasn't a West African, and that it is ''funny'' or ''remarkable'' that Tuareg and Beja are closely related.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^I actually have no negative aversion to most of what Kokakola has typed here. The kid is obviously misguided (as I'd clearly mentioned already) but I'm simply commenting on what I took to be a good observation on his/her part (keeping in mind that he/she isn't a long-standing member of ES). He also made a good argument against you about the sustained ancestral Beja presence in Egypt so the kid isn't exactly dumb. Either way, you shouldn't feel threatened, in the grand scheme of things I find that both of you hold extreme views in this case (the ancient Egyptians were of Beja "type" vs. the ancient Egyptians were separated from Beja-speakers for millenia and underwent a separate "evolutionary path").
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Again, I’m not being difficult here, but I fail to see what is the difference between those two things I’ve highlighted in your post, aside from your fancy anthropological terminology. The end result is the same; one party partakes in/is exposed to certain factors and the other party isn’t (or to a lesser degree). How does that not translate into two evolutionary paths?
This isn't "my own" fancy terminology, they are Keita's words. As stated, one denotes a complete genetic divergence, the other simply involves the acquisition of new traits via some discriminating process. For instance, you also emphasized that the Medjay were taller and more muscular. Well the Khoi Khoi historically have been described as taller and more muscular than the San, yet the only essential difference between them is that the former is heavily involved in pastoral subsistence. By contrast, Biaka Pygmies are shorter than the historical Khoi Khoi because they went on a separate "evolutionary path".
See the difference? That's why I edited my statement (don't know if you caught it) in an attempt at receiving some clarification on what you meant because clearly they aren't the same thing.
quote:Can you lay out to me, how what you said applies to what I’ve said, in that post you just responded to? I know you agree with the idea that a population whose ancestors have been consuming grain for a long time, are impacted differently than population who remain pastoralists, I mean, this is common sense. I don’t see how what you wrote, follows from what I’ve said.
Their life-style and diet was still more similar to their pre-agricultural forbears. As rehearsed, the post-Pleistocene dental reduction hypothesis has little to do with wild grain consumption. In fact, the epipaleolithic grain-eating communities along the Nile still possessed the underived dental patterns that authors observed to be most similar to West Africans.
quote:I don’t see how Medjay burials in Egypt negate that fact, especially since those burials took place after the two populations differentiated. Notice that I am talking about them as populations, migration of individuals does not refute anything I’ve said, since I did not say, ‘’every single individual in both populations is, and remains separated for millennia’’. I’m talking about both populations as two abstract concepts
I wasn't negating anything, I was questioning your attempt at negation. You claimed teeth negated the possibility that ancestral Beja-speakers were influential in the earlier peopling of Egypt based on dental patterns. You used as your evidence, supposed skeletal data retrieved from pan-grave cemeteries. Yet if pan-grave cemeteries/culture extended into Egypt proper, then I fail to see how data from the pan-grave burials can be used to argue against the notion that practitioners of said culture descend from populations that were always there. It would have to be shown that they weren't, which would be difficult since common knowledge dictates that Beja-speakers have always occupied the Eastern deserts of the lower Nile (which extended into Egypt).
It is also possible that by and large, the sample/s used is/are not representative of ancient Beja-speakers (no way to tell as the source isn't peer-reviewed).
quote:^Come on Sundiata, you know you don’t disagree with anything I’ve said.
It's just not a huge disagreement. I simply requested clarity on your idea that ancestral-Beja speakers wouldn't have been influential in the peopling of ancient Egypt based on the tooth size of the pan-grave inhabitants. I obviously disagree because I believe they were present since the pre-dynastic and have written so above. Indeed, we've been in indirect disagreement the entire time which is why I asked for you to lay out your case. You can easily persuade me with the right evidence.
quote:…..But then again, those assimilating Eastern Desert Africans, can’t really be called Eastern Desert Africans anymore, can they? The very word ‘’assimilation’’ denotes that you’d simply call them ‘’Egyptians’’. I presume you agree with this, but even if you don’t, what those migrants do, won’t affect the population they originated in. In other words, those migrants assimilate, but the environmental factors that impact both populations remain the same, and so, the ‘’evolutionary paths’’ are maintained.
Of course they'd have been "Egyptian" and I'm happy that you acknowledge that being one isn't predicated upon tooth size. The point is that they'd have formed a segment of a population that was ancestral to modern Beja-speakers, hence, dental patterns cannot be used to rule out who was influential in populating the early state. Their very presence in Egypt contradicts the claim that they'd have been separated from Egyptians for "millenia". That just seems extreme, which compelled my inquiry.
Posted by Sundjata (Member # 13096) on :
^BTW, I don't want to turn this into a back and fourth display. Initially I was (and still am to some extent) truly just confused by that statement. The above tit for tac would suggest a more hostile disagreement than it implies, which is why I think I'll refrain from responding with segmented quotation blocs as it becomes easier to lose track of the larger point by focusing on inane semantic details. At the same time, we can also just agree to disagree because if you're only going by the dental patterns of the pan-grave skeletons, then I don't think I'll ever be convinced by that argument (was just making sure as I didn't realize that this was all that you were basing that statement on).
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
This koKakoLa chick? is a crackpot and not worthy of being taken seriously on any level. She has absolutely no regard for backing up her highly opinionated posts.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^BTW, I don't want to turn this into a back and fourth display. Initially I was (and still am to some extent) truly just confused by that statement.
I'm going to leave it at this:
I recall a study you recently posted making a similar argument for why they felt theír Gebel Ramlah sample wasn't a big factor in populating Egypt, based on dental features, so obviously, I'm not doing anything new here.
Note that the Gebel Ramlah population presumably didn't have as large teeth, as the Medjay population we're discussing, since the former population was obviously engaged in farming, and they were not THAT far removed from the Egyptian samples.
What does that say about the Medjay, who obviously, would have had larger, more complex teeth than that Gebel Ramlah sample?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^I actually have no negative aversion to most of what Kokakola has typed here. The kid is obviously misguided (as I'd clearly mentioned already) but I'm simply commenting on what I took to be a good observation on his/her part (keeping in mind that he/she isn't a long-standing member of ES). He also made a good argument against you about the sustained ancestral Beja presence in Egypt so the kid isn't exactly dumb. Either way, you shouldn't feel threatened, in the grand scheme of things I find that both of you hold extreme views in this case (the ancient Egyptians were of Beja "type" vs. the ancient Egyptians were separated from Beja-speakers for millenia and underwent a separate "evolutionary path").
My position isn't extreme at all. I clearly wrote, that they were sister populations, and in that context, they were on separate evolutionary paths.
If two people meet eachother at a vork in a road, and both go their separate ways, it can't be discerned how far they are, if you only have the fact at your disposal, that they are on two seperate paths. Yet this what you're constantly doing with my sentence; you misreading my statement to mean genetically entirely different. This is obviously ruled out, by my acknowledgement that they were ''sister populations''.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by astenb (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata:
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Also.. Tuaregs (descendants of the Lybians) shows affinities with the Beja..via mtDNA.. funny no?
Ignoring your West Africa bashing, this seems to be an astute observation, actually. Tishkoff's data on autosomal gene frequencies also associate the Kel Tamasheq with the Beja. Using them as a proxy to estimate ancient Egyptian variation (especially in the south, as they would have been sandwiched in between these two ancestral populations), therefore seems quite intuitive. Difficulty will rest however, on establishing what the baseline variation was and how much the two populations differ from their ancestors (that the modern and ancient variation in Egypt is similar, but qualitatively different, is a given).
Of course this is simply reciting ''common knowledge''. The troll is mistaking posters on the forum for being idiots, and I think its a shame you don't see through that.
This observation has been discussed many times on ES, even way before I even was a member. Researchers other than Tishkoff have noted this relationship as well. I find it funny that this KokaKola character wants to inform ES posters of the fact that King Tut wasn't a West African, and that it is ''funny'' or ''remarkable'' that Tuareg and Beja are closely related.
Excuse me ? You are the one trying to stick an entire population with a group of people they are not related. scientifical evidences clearly show that the Ancient Egyptians were CLEARLY NOT of west african origin since that _Modern Egyptians dont cluster with West Africans _There is no migration between Africa and Northesatern africa (minus the Sahelian populations like the Fulani, Baggara, Hausa..)
Also, the phenotype of the AE is common in West Africa
Finally, the culture of the Ancient Egyptian is related to the culture of the Cushitic speakers in East Africa.
Your entire argument is somewhat nonsense. On one hand argue that migration from West Africa to Egypt or vis-versa had to happen during Dynastic times for it to "count".
quote: And the PN2 clade is from the Paleolithic , unless the Ancient Egyptian civilization was built in this period
Then you talk about the connection of Beja and Egypt but at a time that Egyptian civilization did not exist and during a time probably prior to the existence of Beja as an identity, Beja language, or possible even the entire Cushitic phylum. That is called a double standard. You are saying migration from Egypt to West and Africa somehow does not count but migration from Egypt to Beja type people does count even though BOTH migrations occurred long prior to Egyptian civilization.
Furthermore you continue with the Euro strawman arguing that Egyptians didn't come from West Africa.
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer: This koKakoLa chick? is a crackpot and not worthy of being taken seriously on any level. She has absolutely no regard for backing up her highly opinionated posts.
i noticed that pan africanists HATE science! Science clearly debunks those wishful fantasies. Ancient egyptians were not west africans and not related to them.
Of course the Ancient Egyptians weren't West Africans, albeit they are related.
What exactly is your ultimate objective in raising such an argument, how does it benefit you to make West Africans some sort of separate entity within the continent that you ideologically go as far as to state they are unrelated to the other peoples of Africa?
Posted by Sahel (Siptah) (Member # 17601) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE] [qb]
West Africans with so-called "Eurasian" features:
What is so-called Eurasian about the features of the West African girls? Please elaborate.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
KoKaKoLa, despite what you seem to display as insanity and racist obsession with attacking Black Africans in West Africa, everything you have posted is wrong, irrelivant and/or inadmissble. But you should know that many vital things have inevitably been solidified, that:
1) Ancient Kemetians were 100% Black Africans (both so-called pre-dynastic and dynastic); 2) genetic tests results from human remains of royalty in Ancient Kemetians genetic matches Black Africans in West Africa 3) the Bantu and Ancient Kemet are genetically and lingustically linked 4) anthropological lingustic evidence, a world over, has further solidified the existence of Black Africans in West Africa in Ancient Kemet
5) West Africa contributed as a 'Nubian' source of origin peopling/populating Ancient Kemet. Likewise, Ancient Kemetians recognized this equator region as their ancestral origin and 'Land of the gods'. 6) Black Africans in West Africa represent and extremely high concentration some of unmixed, direct biological descendents of Ancient Kemetians
7) those in North Africa today are highly mixed people including many Ethiopeans (actually Abyssinians), Beja, Somalis, Eritreans, Morocco, Egypt as a result of foreign conqures, conquest and colonialism.
Your selective use of images used in representing the Yoruba and Igbo ethnic nationalities is not only childish, but also show you poorly and highly uneducated. Perhaps, maybe this is kind of abnormal behavior should be expected from Arabized-mixture people in so-called North Africa who have been brainwashed into thinking that have some Arab blood somehow makes them better than other Black Africans. Clearly, such nonsense is far from the truth.
As far as I know of, mixed ethnic groups like the Beja have yet to produce scientists, specialists and scholars at level of many Black African hailing from so-called Sub-Sahara Africa (ex: Theophile Obenga, Cheikh Anta Diop, Catherine Acholonu...etc) who can scholastically, with skill, expresses and expand on any hypothesis of interest, in particular, Ancient Kemetic connections. Since you clearly lack any civil and properly skills in presenting your hypothesis without weak attempts trying to discredit other Black Africans with selective, insignificant images you view as objects of self gratification, I thought maybe if I posted some information here, the likes of you may learn something, and if not, that's ok; it will be your loss, but others may learn something.
Firstly, though it may take a few more years before Eurocentrists admit it, Ancient Kemet was a 100% Negro-Bantu civilization. Secondly, Caucasians did not exist during the time of Ancient Kemet anywhere in Africa and giving that Ancient Kemet itself is well over ~22,000 years old, the implications are quite evident. According to White scientists, the gene(s) responsible for whiteness in Europeans is said to have mutated 5,000-6,000 years with some arguing maybe even 12,000 years ago (~12,000 years ago the entire Europe was under ice). Clearly, White people have absolutely nothing to do with Ancient Kemet and neither do Arabs. This means Caucasians are simply a result of very recent events in human history and hence why Eurocentrics feel to need of dating ancient civilizations within the limits of ~6,000 as to suggest Whites may have had something to do with it ( http://news.discovery.com/human/genetics-neanderthal-110718.html | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people ). In fact, it has been suggested, with scientific backing, that Europeans are hybrid-beings partly consisting of the genes of the long extinct non-human Neanderthal ( http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/183012/20110719/neanderthal-human-genetics-non-african.htm | http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Genetic+research+confirms+partly+Neanderthal/5122576/story.html | http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100506/full/news.2010.225.html ). Studies suggest that only in people of non-African heritage carry the non-human Neanderthal genes. So White people have now embarked on a massive propaganda campaign of big lies attempting to paint the now extinct non-human Neanderthal (missing anterio lobe of brain) as some human equivalent species capable of producing art, lanuguage and ability to produce complex systems. All this is non-sense and limited to fabrication on TV, movies so-called documentaries.
In our reality, Ancient Kemetians were 100% Black Africans and full blooked human beings whose civilization lasted for over ~17,000 years. Ancient Kemet, like Black African nations today, Ancient Kemet was made up many ethnic nationalities unified by an overall sameness and lingua-franc. In focus here are two ethnic nationalities you've naively and ignorantly chose to make fun of; that being the Igbo and the Yoruba. What is even more ammusing is your cluelessness that Black Africans in West Africa have built many majestic and advanced civilization in their present locations which, and under careful study, reveals their genetic connection to Ancient Kemet. For instance, genetic test on human remains from Ancient Kemet reveal these subjects (as with King Tutu-ankoma) carried SCD(Sickle Cell Disease) and upon searching its origin, it was discovered that the specific type of Sickle Cell was the Benin Haplotype (sometimes knownas Bantu Haplotype). Here are some references to the scientific study:
Sickle cell genetic tests were performed by: Marin A, Cerutti N, Massa ER. (Dipartimento di Biologia Animale e dell'Uomo, Universita degli Studi di Torino.)
On a side note, in Chapter 50 of the book titled "Blood: principles and practice of hematology, Volume 1", it clearly noted in detailed that the Benin/Bantu Haplotype are the most dominant type found in Egypt, Algeria, Greece, Turkey, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and so on. Other haplotypes types found is CAR (Central African Republic).
Here is another reference of Benin HbS Haplotype Found at 52.1% in Oman
What all implies, as proof, is that West Africa and Black Africans in West Africa played a major role surving as both a source(origin) of many Ancient Kemetian ethnicities as well as a destination point of resetlement for many ancient Black Africans migrating out of Ancient Kemet (Bantu Migration probably being the largest). Perhaps, to put this in a better light, we must look at some very important and vital facts for if we ignore these fact intentionally or unknowngly the natural accuracy model of Black African history, particularly, the region of West Africa will be thrown off. The fact is, there are two Ethiopia(s). I will donate names to these two Ethiopias as 'Ethiopia-Old' and 'Ethiopia-New'. Firstly Ethiopia-New is present day Ethiopia and only had it's name changed recently in history by colonial imperilists; changing it from 'Abbysinia' to 'Ethiopia'. Ethiopia-Old, as revealed by the maps of that era below was called "ÆTHIOPIA" is this old Ethiopia was clearly West Africa and undoubtably the Ethiopia-of-old ancient scholars compared the race of Ancient Egyptians(Kemetians) with. The 1640 Jodocus Hondius map of Africa clearly shows that at least in 1640 the ocean off the coast of what is now known as West Africa was called "Oceanus Aethiopicus" (#1). This remained so in the 1660 Willem Janszoon Blaeu map of Africa (#2). At least by 1743 was known to traverlers as "ÆTHIOPIA" and the body of water off it's coast commonly known as "Oceanvs ÆTHIOPICVS". Clearly West Africa was known as ÆTHIOPIA/Ethiopia for a long time.
1. 2. 3.
---continued in next post
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
The anthropological linguistic work revealing the genetic relationship between the Igbo and Yoruba lanuages are not simply conincedences. For example:
EGYPTIAN (KEMETIAN) -to- IGBO LANGUAGE 1. Akhu-t (fire or light, name of Pyramid) Oku(fire, light) 2. Eshedah (implies slope, base of slope') Osheda (slopes/pulls down) 3. Yam (body of water) Iyi Oma (good water/mother goddess) 4. Hai(let it be) Ha ya (let it be) 5. Khef (gather them/tie them together) Kee fa (tie them togetner) 6. Ashah (multiply) Ghashah (multiply) 7. Ets Daatu (tree which makes known) Otusi Daatu (the Bamboo tree give knowledge) 8. Hamar (command) Hamara (command on to) 9. Pree-t (descendants - fruit of Tree of Knowledge) Mkpuru otu (descendants - fruit of the vagina) 10. Khasu/IKwushi ('Sea people', 'Nubians') - Akwu Nshi(Nest of immortals/God-men) 11. Apis/Aphi (Bull) Efi (Bull) 12. Tchau-a (place of the rising Sun) Chi awaa (dawn breaks/Sun-god emerges) 13. Wawa-t (Dawn of Sun People) Nwa Awaa ('Son of the Dawn') 14. NTR/Neter (gods, guardian or watcher) O-Netara (one who guards and watches over 15. Ptah(he who fashions things by carving and opening up) Okpu-atu (he who moulds/fashions things by carving and opening up) 16. Hu-ku-Pta (place of the Soul of Ptah) Ihu-chi-Ptah- (Shrine of Ptah) 17. Ra (Sun, Daylight) oRa(Sun, Daylight (Igbo Afa)) 18. Asar (god associated with number 7) Asar (seven, god of number seven) 19. Heru(face of the sun) Iru (face) 20. KAKA(God) | Ka (greater, superior) 21. Em (smell) | Emi (nose, associated with smell) 22. Bi (to become) | Bu (to become) 23. Feh (to go away) | Feh (to fly away) 24. Budo (dwelling place) | uBudo (country, dwelling place) 25. Un (living person) | Una/Unu (living area, house) 26. Beka (pray/confess) | Beko (to plead, please) 27. Aru (mouth) | Aku/Ahu (to speak) & Unu (mouth) 28. Dor (settlement) | Dor-Nor (sit down, settle) 29. Ra -Shu (light after darkness) | La -Shu (sleep) 30. Ma (to know) | Ma, Ma-li (to know)
EGYPTIAN (KEMETIAN) -to- YORUBA LANGUAGE
1. Iset (a water god) Ise (a water god) 2. Shabu (watcher) Ashonbo (watcher) 3. Semati (door keeper) Sema (lock/shut the door) 4. Khenti amenti (big words of Osiris Yenti – yenti (big, very big) 5. Ma (to know) Ma (to know) 6. Bebi, a son of osiris) Ube, a god 8. Tchatcha chief (they examined the death to see if they tricked tsatsa (a game of tricks, gambling ) 9. Ren( animal foot) Ren (to walk) 10. Ka (rest) Ka (rest/tired) 11. Mu (water) Mu (drink water) 12. Abi (against) Ubi (against / impediment) 13. Reti (to beseech) Retin (to listen) 14. Hir (praise) Yiri (praise) 15. Ta(spread out) Ta (spread out) 16. Kamwr (black) Kuru (extremely black 17. Omitjener (deep water) Omijen (deep water) 18. Nen, the primeval water mother) Nene (mother 19. Ta (land) Ita (land junction) 20. Horiwo (head) Oriwo (head) 21. Ro (talk) Ro (to think) 22. Kurubu (round) Kurubu (deep and round) 23. Penka (divide) Kpen (divide) 24. Ma-su (to mould) Ma or su (to mould) 25. Osa (time) Osa (time) 26. Osa (tide) Osa ( tide) 27. Fare (wrap) Fari (wrap) 28. Kom (complete) Kon (complete) 29. Edjo (cobra) Edjo (cobra) 30. Didi (red fruit) Diden (red
Furthmore, it is already known that Ancient Kemet was a Bantu civilization with diverse facial features a world over. Facial analysis comparsion Black Africans in West Africa to Ancient Kemetians clearly reveal these patterns of similarities. It also shows that the old Ethiopia refered to by scholars was physically West Africa and not Abyssinia (new, today's Ethiopia):
As you can see, in the end, in your attempt to make fun of and/or billitle other Black African people, all you posted were pictures of some highly mixed North African inhabitants who look nothing like the original mold of Ancient Kemet. As I've clearly show, Black Africans in West Africa completely match the original mold of Ancient Kemet. Below, to your selective use of outdated images of some rural Black Africans, I've selectively chosen images which acurately shows what Black Africans in West Africa also look like today:
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Beja live in Egypt. Beja were in Egypt BEFORE Ancient Egypt and they are still there After Ancient Egypt. West Africans WERE NOT in Egypt. and NEVER settled. Modern Nubians and Egyptians DO NOT cluster with West Africans. West africans genes are almost inexistant among those populations.
West africans are mostly agriculturists. Agricultutrists tend to have a low migration rate. Naqadan were pastoralists. Pastoralism is common into East Africa NOT west africa
My last post here, as I'm not going to deal with people getting into a tug of war about whether Egyptians were Bantu/West Africans or Northeastern AFricans (Its only playing into the creative ability of Kokakola to erect strawmen).
This supports the view that the Egyptians and Black Africans are genetically related. This hypothesis led to the corrolary hypothesis that, the Black Africans and Egyptians spoke similar languages.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Chiekh Anta Diop has contributed much to the Afrocentric social sciences. Here we discuss many of Diop's views on using the linguistic sciences to rediscover the ancient history of Blacks.
Chiekh Anta Diop has made important contributions to linguistic theory in relation to African historiography. Diop's work illustrates that it is important for scholars to maintain a focus on the historical and linguistic factors which define the "personnalitè culturelle africaine" (Diop 1991, 227).
Language is the sanctum sanctorum of Diop's Afrocentric historical method. The Diopian view of historiography combines the research of linguistics, history and psychology to interpret the cultural unity of African people. C. Anta Diop is the founder of modern Afrocentricism . Diop (1974,1991) laid the foundations for the Afrocentric idea in education. He laid these foundations using both the historical and anthropological/linguistic methods of research to explain the role of the Blacks in World History.
There are three components in the genetic model: 1) common Physical type, 2) common cultural patterns and 3) genetically related languages. (Winters 1989a) Diop over the years has brought to bear all three of these components in his illumination of Kemetic civilization. (Diop 1974,1977,1978,1991)
The opposition of many Eurocentric scholars to Afrocentric -ism results from white hostility to Diop's idea of a Black Egypt, and the view that Egyptians spoke an African ,rather than Afro-Asiatic language.
Recently, Eurocentric American scholars have alleged to write reviews of Diop's recent book (Diop 1991). Although these reviewers mention the work of Diop in their articles, they never review his work properly, because they lack the ability to understand the many disciplines that Diop has mastered.(Lefkowitz 1992; Baines 1991) For example Lefkowitz (1992) in The New Republic, summarizes Diop (1974) but never presents any evidence to dispute the findings of Diop. The most popular "review" of Diop (1991) was done by Baines (1991) review in the New York Times Book Review. In this "review" Baines (1991) claims that "...the evidence and reasoning used to support the arguments are often unsound".
Instead of addressing the evidence Diop (1991) presents of the African role in the rise of civilization that he alleges is "unsound", he is asking the reader to reject Diop's thesis without refutation of specific evidence presented by Diop of the African contributions to Science and Philosophy. Baines (l991) claims that Diop's Civilization or Barbarism, is not a work of originality, he fails to dispute any factual evidence presented by Diop. Baines (1991) wants the public to accept his general negative comments about Civilization or Barbarism ,based on the fact that he is an Egyptologist. This is not enough, in academia to refute a thesis one must present counter evidence that proves the falseness of a thesis not unsubstantiated rhetoric. We can not accept the negative views of Baines on faith alone. In the recovery of information concerning the African past, Diop promotes semantic anthropology, comparative linguistics and the study of Onomastics. The main thesis of Diop is that typonymy and ethnonymy of Africa point to a common cradle for Paleo-Africans in the Nile Valley (Diop 1978, 67).
Onomastics is the science of names. Diop has studied legends, placenames and religious cult terms to discover the unity of African civilization. Diop (1981, 86) observed that: "An undisputed linguistic relationship between two geographically remote groups of languages can be relevant for the study of migrations. A grammatical (or genetic) relationship if clear enough is never an accident".
As a result, Diop has used toponyms (place-names), anthroponyms (personal names) and ehthnonyms (names of ethnic groups/tribes) to explain the evidence of analogous ethnic (clan) names in West Africa and the Upper Nile (Diop 1991).
In Precolonial Black Africa, Diop used ethnonyms to chart the migrations of African people in West Africa. And in The African Origin of Civilization, Diop used analyses acculturaliste or typological analysis to study the origin and spread of African cultural features from the Nile Valley to West Africa through his examination of toponyms (Diop 1974, 182-183). In the Cultural Unity of Black Africa, Diop discussed the common totems and religious terms many African ethnic groups share (Diop 1978, 124).
LINGUISTIC TAXONOMY
This linguistic research has been based on linguistic classification or taxonomy. Linguistic taxonomy is the foundation upon which comparative and historical linguistic methods are based (Ruhlen 1994). Linguistic taxonomy is necessary for the identification of language families. The determination of language families give us the material to reconstruct the proto-language of a people and discover regular sound correspondences.
There are three major kinds of language classifications: genealogical, typological, and areal. A genealogical classifica-tion groups languages together into language families based on the shared features retained by languages since divergence from the common ancestor or proto-language. An areal classification groups languages into linguistic areas based on shared features acquired by a process of convergence arising from spatial proximity. A typological classification groups languages together into language types by the similarity in the appearance of the structure of languages without consideration of their historical origin and present, or past geographical distribution.
COMPARATIVE METHOD
Diop has used comparative and historical linguistics to illuminate the Unity of African civilization. Diop (1977, xxv) has noted that "The process for the evolution of African languages is clearly apparent; from a far we (have) the idea that Wolof is descendant by direct filiation to ancient Egyptian, but the Wolof, Egyptian and other African languages (are) derived from a common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common mother language that one can call Paleo-African, the common African or the Negro- African of L. Homburger or of Th. Obenga."
The comparative method is used by linguists to determine the relatedness of languages, and to reconstruct earlier language states. The comparative linguist has two major goals (1) trace the history of language families and reconstruct the mother language of each family, and (2) determine the forces which affect language. In general, comparative linguists are interested in determining phonetic laws, analogy/ correspondence and loan words. Diop is a strong supporter of the comparative method in the rediscovery of Paleo-African. The reconstruction of Paleo-African involves both reconstruction and recognition of regular sound correspondence. The goal of reconstruction is the discovery of the proto-language of African people is the recovery of Paleo-African:
(1) vowels and consonants
(2) specific Paleo-African words
(3) common grammatical elements; and
(4) common syntactic elements.
The comparative method is useful in the reconstruction of Proto-languages or Diop's Paleo-African. To reconstruct a proto-language the linguist must look for patterns of correspondences. Patterns of correspondence is the examination of terms which show uniformity. This uniformity leads to the inference that languages are related since uniformity of terms leads to the inference that languages are related since conformity of terms in two or more languages indicate they came from a common ancestor.
HISTORICAL LINGUISTICS
A person's language provides us with evidence of the elements of a group's culture. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about a group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language. Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologist make precise inferences about a groups culture elements.
Linguistic resemblances denote a historical relationship. This suggest that resemblances in fundamental vocabulary and culture terms can help one reconstruct the culture of the speakers of genetically related languages.
LINGUISTIC CONSTANCY
The rate at which languages change is variable. It appears that linguistic change is culture specific. Consequently, the social organization and political culture of a particular speech community can influence the speed at which languages change.
Based on the history of language change in Europe most linguists believe that the rate of change for all languages is both rapid and constant.(Diagne, 1981,p.238) The idea that all languages change rapidly is not valid for all the World's languages.
African languages change much slower than European languages. (Armstrong, 1962) For example, African vocabulary items collected by Arab explorers over a thousand years ago are analogous to contemporary lexical items.(Diagne,1981, p.239) In addition there are striking resemblances between the ancient Egyptian language and Coptic, and Pharonic Egyptian and African languages.(Diagne, 1981; Diop, 1977; Obenga, 1993)
The political stability of African political institutions has caused languages to change very slowly in Africa. Pawley and Ross (1993) argue that a sedentary life style may account for the conservative nature of a language.
African oral traditions and the eye witness accounts of travelers to Africa, make it clear that African empires although made up of diverse nationalities illustrated continuity. To accomodate the plural nature of African empires Africans developed a Federal system of government. (Niane , 1984) In fact we can not really describe ancient African state systems as empires, since this implies absolute rule or authority in a single individual. This political state of affairs rarely existed in ancient Africa, because in each African speech community local leadership was elected by the people within the community. (Diop, 1987) For example the Egyptians often appointed administrators over the conquered territories from among the conquered people. (Diop ,1991)
The continuity of many African languages may result from the steady state nature of African political systems, and long standing cultural stability since neolithic times. (Diop, 1991 ; Winters 1985) This cultural stability has affected the speed at which African languages change.
In Africa due to the relative stability of socio-political structures and settled life, there has not been enough pressure exerted on African societies as a whole and African speech communities in particular, to cause radical internal linguistic changes within most African languages. Permanent settlements led to a clearly defined system of inheritance and royal succession. These traits led to stability on both the social and political levels. This leads to the hypothesis that linguistic continuity exist in Africa due to the stability of African socio-political structures and cultural systems. This relative cultural stability has led African languages to change more slowly then European and Asian languages. Diop (1974) observed that:
First the evolution of languages, instead of moving everywhere at the same rate of speed seems linked to other factors; such as , the stability of social organizations or the opposite, social upheavals. Understandably in relatively stable societies man's language has changed less with the passage of time.(pp.153-154)
There is considerable evidence which supports the African continuity concept. Dr. Armstrong (1962) noted the linguistic continuity of African languages when he used glottochronology to test the rate of change in Yoruba. Comparing modern Yoruba words with a list of identical terms collected 130 years ago by Koelle , Dr. Armstrong found little if any internal or external changes in the terms. He concluded that:
I would have said that on this evidence African languages are changing with glacial slowness, but it seems to me that in a century a glacier would have changed a lot more than that. Perhaps it would be more in order to say that these languages are changing with geological slowness. (Armstrong, 1962, p.285).
Diop's theory of linguistic constancy recognizes the social role language plays in African language change. Language being a variable phenomena has as much to do with a speaker's society as with the language itself. Thus social organization can influence the rate of change within languages. Meillet (1926, 17) wrote that:
Since language is a social institution it follows that linguistics is a social science, and the only variable element to which one may appeal in order to account for a linguistic change is social change, of which language variations are but the consequences.
THE BLACK AFRICAN ORIGIN OF EGYPT
Diop has contributed much to African linguistics. He was a major proponent of the Dravidian-African relationship (Diop 1974, 116), and the African substratum in Indo-European languages in relationship to cacuminal sounds and terms for social organiza-tion and culture (1974, 115). Diop (1978, 113) also recognized that in relation to Arabic words, after the suppression of the first consonant, there is often an African root.
Diop's major linguistic effort has been the classification of Black African and Egyptian languages . Up until 1977 Diop'smajor area of interest were morphological and phonological similarities between Egyptian and Black African languages. Diop (1977, 77-84) explains many of his sound laws for the Egyptian-Black African connection.
In Parènte Génétique de l'Egyptien pharraonique et des Langues Négro Africaines (PGEPLNA), Diop explains in some detail his linguistic views in the introduction of this book. In PGEPLNA , Diop demonstrates the genetic relationship between ancient Egyptian and the languages of Black Africa. Diop provides thousands of cognate Wolof and Egyptian terms in support of his Black African-Egyptian linguistic relationship.
PALEO-AFRICAN
African languages are divided into Supersets (i.e., a family of genetically related languages, e.g., Niger-Congo) sets, and subsets. In the sets of African languages there are many parallels between phonological terms, eventhough there may be an arbitrary use of consonants which may have a similar sound. The reason for these changes is that when the speakers of Paleo-African languages separated, the various sets of languages underwent separate developments. As a result a /b/ sound in one language may be /p/ or /f/ in a sister language. For example, in African languages the word for father may be baba , pa or fa, while in the Dravidian languages we have appan to denote father. Diop has noted that reconstruction of Paleo-African terms can help us make inferences about an ethnic group's culture going backwards in time to an impenetrable past undocumented by written records. This is semantic anthropology, a linguistic approach which seeks to discover aspects of man's culture from his language.
Thusly, linguistic resemblances can help the anthropologists make precise inferences about a linguistic group's cultural elements.
BLACKS IN WEST ASIA
In PGEPLNA Diop makes clear his views on the role of African languages in the rise of other languages. Using archaeological evidence Diop makes it clear that the original West Asians: Elamites and Sumerians were of Black origin (1974, 1977, xxix-xxxvii).
Diop (1974, 1991) advocates the unity of Black Africans and Blacks in West Asia. Winters (1985,1989,1994) has elaborated on the linguistic affinity of African and West Asian languages.
This view is supported by linguistic evidence. For example these languages share demonstrative bases:
Proximate Distant Finite
Dravidian i a u
Manding i a u
Sumerian bi a
Wolof i a u
The speakers of West Asian and Black African languages also share basic culture items: Chief city,village black,burnt
Dravidian cira, ca uru kam
Elamite Salu
Sumerian Sar ur
Manding Sa furu kami,"charcoal'
Nubia sirgi mar
Egyptian Sr mer kemit
Paleo-African *sar *uru *kam
OBENGA
Obenga (1978) gives a phonetic analysis of Black African and Egyptian. He illustrates the genetic affinity of consonants within the Black African (BA) and Egyptian languages especially the occlusive bilateral sonorous, the occlusive nasal apico-dental /n/ and /m/ , the apico-alveolar /r/ and the radical proto-form sa: 'man, female, posterity' in Black Africa.
Language
Agaw asau, aso 'masculine
Sidama asu 'man'
Oromo asa id.
Caffino aso id.
Yoruba so 'produce'
Meroitic s' man
Fonge sunu id.
Bini eso 'someone'
Kikongo sa,se,si 'father'
Swahili (m)zee 'old person'
Egyptian sa 'man'
Manding si,se 'descendant,posterity,family'
Azer se 'individual, person'
Obenga (1978) also illustrated the unity between the verbs 'to come, to be, to arrive':
Language
Egyptian ii, ey Samo, Loma dye
Mbosi yaa Bisa gye
Sidama/Omo wa Wolof nyeu
Caffino wa Peul yah, yade
There is t =/= d, highlight the alternation patterns of many Paleo-African consonants including b =/= p, l =/= r ,and g =/= k.
The Egyptian term for grain is 0 sa #. This corresponds to many African terms for seed,grain:
Galla senyi
Malinke se , si
Sumerian se
Egyptian sen 'granary'
Kannanda cigur
Bozo sii
Bambara sii
Daba sisin
Somali sinni
Loma sii
Susu sansi
Oromo sanyi
Dime siimu
Egyptian ssr 'corn'
id. ssn 'lotus plant'
id. sm 'herb, plant'
id. isw 'weeds'
In conclusion, Diop has done much to encourage the African recovery of their history. His theories on linguistics has inspired many African scholars to explain and elaborate the African role in the history of Africa and the world. This has made his work important to our understanding of the role of Black people in History.
Here we have shown the methods Anta Diop has used to rediscover the long and great history of Africans in Africa and the world. This methods allow us to reconstruct the Paleo-African culture formerly practiced by Africans in Africa, Asia and the Americas.
It also shows that West Africans and Cushitic speakers share common terms for the principal items of culture because they were all part of the Pan-African Egyptian civilization.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Ottoman Empire controlled Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia for 400 years. Can this explain the presence of Eurasian genes among populations in this area instead of a back migration?
Article European Journal of Human Genetics (2005) 13, 856–866. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201390 Published online 9 March 2005
High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages characterized by E3b1, DYS19-11, DYS392-12 in Somali males
Juan J Sanchez1, Charlotte Hallenberg1, Claus Børsting1, Alexis Hernandez2 and Niels Morling1
Y chromosome haplogroup variation We identified a total of 23 Y chromosome haplogroups in 389 males from Somalia, sub-Saharan West Africa, Turkey and Iraq. Figure 1 shows the genealogical relationship of the haplogroups and their frequencies.
In Somali males, 14 haplogroups were identified. The frequency of the clade E3b was 81.1%, including 77.6% of the haplogroup E3b1 defined by the M78 mutation. The Eurasian haplogroup K2 was found in 10.4%, and 3.0% of the Somali Y chromosomes belonged to the major clade J. Only 3.0% of the Somalis had the sub-Saharan African haplogroups A3, B and E3a*(xE3a4). Less than 2.0% of the Somalis belonged to the Northwest African E3b2 lineage. In the present study, no individual belonging to E3b* chromosomes carried the V6 mutation, which identifies a subset of chromosomes assigned to E3b* (E-M35*).10
Among the sub-Saharan Western Africans, only four haplogroups were identified. The West African clade E3a was found in 89.2%. Only one individual carried the major clade E3b (1.5%), and the haplogroup E3b1 was not observed.
In Turks, 12 haplogroups were found. The four haplogroups J2*(xJ2f2) (27.1%), R1b3*(xR1b3d, R1b3f) (20.3%), E3b3 and R1a1*(xR1a1b) (both 11.9%) were the most frequent ones.
In Iraqis, 12 haplogroups were identified. The haplogroup J2*(xJ2f2) was the most frequent
The distribution of the haplogroups J2*(xJ2f2) (0.5%) and J*(xJ2) (2.5%) in Somalis support the recent gene flow hypothesis. Haplogroup J*(xJ2) was probably spread by the Arab people.40 The ratio between the haplogroups J2/J*(xJ2) may be an indicator of the genetic components from populations like (1) Balkans, Turks, Georgians and Muslim Kurds and (2) Bedouin and Palestinian Arabs, respectively.40, 52 The ratio was 0.26 in the Oman population.9 The J2/J*(xJ2) ratio of 0.2 in the present Somali sample suggest a predominant gene flow of Arab Y chromosomes.
In conclusion, the data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population – closely related to the Oromos in Ethiopia and North Kenya (Boranas) – with predominant E3b1 cluster DYS392-12 lineages that probably were introduced into the Somali population 4000–5000 years ago, approximately 15% Y chromosomes from Eurasia and approximately 5% from sub-Saharan Africa. Work is in progress in order to study closely related populations with new informative markers to obtain a better understanding of the E3b1 lineages .
The Ottoman Turks ruled Sudan, Egypt, Somali amd Eritrea from the 1500's to early 1900's.
A study by Krings et al. from 1999 on mitochondrial DNA clines along the Nile Valley found that a Eurasian cline runs from Northern Egypt to Southern Sudan, and a Sub-Saharan cline extends from Southern Sudan to Northern Egypt. Another study based on maternal lineages links modern Egyptians with people from modern Eritrea/Ethiopia such as the Afro-Asiatic-speaking Tigre. Similarly, an mtDNA study of modern Egyptians from the Gurna region near Thebes in Southern Egypt revealed that Eurasian haplogroups represented 61% of the population, with the remainder 39% being of Sub-Saharan origin. The oral tradition of the Gurna people indicates that they descend from the ancient Egyptians. http://www.biblediscovered.com/genetic-ethnicity-of-nations/archaeogenetics-of-the-near-east/ Haplogroups J2*(xJ2f2) (0.5%) and J*(xJ2) (2.5%) in Somalis support the recent gene flow hypothesis.
Frequencies are high in Turkey, approximately 24% of Turkish men are J2 according to a recent study, with regional frequencies ranging between 13% and 40%. Combined with J1, up to half of the Turkish population belongs to Haplogroup J.
Many people in this are have probably been heavily influenced by Turks. This is why you guys share genes with Eurasians. They are due to recent contact.
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Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by adrianne (Member # 10761) on :
tell us what your really trying to say?
are you saying west africans are a different specie of african then the east african?
if europeans are related to each other , tell us why east and west africans are not?
you cant apply a african type apartheid unless you have evidence?
would it be right in saying you have european genes or eurasian genes in you?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by adrianne: [QB] tell us what your really trying to say?
are you saying west africans are a different specie of african then the east african?
if europeans are related to each other , tell us why east and west africans are not?
Africans are more diverse
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
KoKaKoLa, you are very wrong! In fact, everything you have posted so far is clearly pointless. Though reversible, I don't see how you can better your position in the current state. What is clear, is that you seem to gratify and enjoy silliness. Also, you seem to have found personal comfort in pointless disagrements without any logical reason other than having a form of social xenophobia complex you seem to have developed toward other Black Africans. Such abnormal behaviors are clearly conditioned teachings. In layman's terms, what this means is that you embody a form socio-psychological disorder known as Arab/North-African racism towards Black Africans. It is the same sort of socio-psychological disorder which lead Black Africans in Southern Sudan towards a successful creation of their own nation after decades of fighting against Arab racism. Unfortunately, the state you seem to find yourself in is clearly an invalid state as a basis for engaging in any civil and logical debate. In such a state, you clearly do not meet even the most minimum and sensible requirement to engage in academic matters, especially in a subject as large and far reaching as Black African/Bantu genetic relationship to Anceint Kemet. As an example, out of what seem to be a very serious naviety and bluntly, ignorance, you wrote:
"Genetics & Anthropology > Lingusitics anyday"
You wrote this without even realzing that linguistic study part anthropology. Clearly you don't know anything about linguistic study and why it is such a trusted and vital part of anthropology. It is because people move and locations don't, therefore linguistic anthropology can be exceptionally reliable and accurate in tracking people movement over time. This is why linguistic study is a highly regarded part of anthropology. The fact that you did not even know that linguistic study is part of anthropology solidifies what I said earlier, that you do not meet the requirements to engage in an academic debate. Furthermore, the motive behind your disagreement is clearly based on a socio-psychological disorder of North African-Arab conditioned racism towards Black Africans.
I would strongly suggest you study the Black African ethnic nationalities in West Africa, as well as West Africa's numerous majestic ancient and highly advanced civilizations. The significance of West Africa's contribution in to the world is far too massive to ignore. West Africa's genetic relationship to Ancient Kemet is permanently solidified.
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: ... 1) yes 2) let me see those tests then? Last time i checked Anthropology and Genetics clearly states that west africans population were inexistant in Egypt and that modern Egyptian, who descent from the Ancients, do not cluster with West africans. The remains cluster more with Egyptians & Northern Sudanese. And the bones structure of most of the mummies is not...related to west africans.
3 & 4)HmmM Not really , genetically speaking. Linguistically speaking, languages travel. The AE IMPORTED from PUNT, dancing pigmies
A whole population cant be only based on Languages Igbo and Yoruba languages are not related to Ancient Egyptian. the closest language , once again, is bedawiyet.
Genetics & Anthropology > Lingusitics anyday.
5)..hum.. Ancient Egyptians didnt migrated anywhere... No historical evidence. WHich event? when? No Anthropological evidence. No genetical evidence.
6 &7) You said the Igbos & yorubas were the ancient egyptians. Whats wrong if i compare them with the ancient egyptians? They dont look like the ancient egyptians, anyway.
The basis of the Egyptian population = East Africa.
ps: Why did you show pics of mixed americans? LMAO i thought the Ancient Egyptians were Igbos? Yoruba? show yoruba, igbos then..
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
No surprise that this thread has degenerated also.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I've been on vacation and haven't had much time to post here and haven't been keeping up.
No problem bro, sh!t happens. Any ideas on how to interpret that post cranial data?
Can you give me more info on the data. I didn't even know that it was cranial. I thought it was skeletal. Can you send me the paper it comes from?
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: i dont know if all the Beja have large teeth and i dont know about the teeth of the ancient egyptian. i've just seen articles saying that the pharaohs of the XVIII dynasty and their wives had "buck teeth".
like this one?
The buck teeth is alveolar prognathism and is not the same as large teeth which refers to tooth size. Such features are common with more so-called "negro" i.e. 'Bantu' features. I know you don't feel comfortable with that, but oh well.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: Benin sickle cell haplotype is also found in Southeastern europe where west africans genes are almost inexistant. it doesnt imply a west african origin.
Of course it does, silly! Benin sickle cell IS a West African gene!! Why do you think it is named 'Benin' in the first place??
^ As you can see it is labeled 'Benin' because that sickle-cell trait originated in the Benin area, but spread to other areas including Egypt in northeast Africa as well as southern Europe-- both Greece as well as Italy.
quote:Greeks have 25% of E1B1B1A which originates from northeastern africa. But almost no west african admixtures. the first E1B1B1A carriers (the Natufians ?) who entered in southeastern europe in the late mesolithic probably already had the benin sickle cell trait.
Yes, the predominant African lineage among Greeks is E1b1b but how do you explain the Benin sickle cell? Also while most of the African HLA genes are east African (affinities with Sudanese and Ethiopian) there are some that are West African in origin (affinities with Burkina Faso and Fulani).
And No, there is no evidence of Benin or any sickle cell amongst Natufians.
quote: Once again Egyptians and west africans dont share similar genetic markers
Yes they do. Both Benin HBS as well as mitochondrial L3, U6, and Y-chromosomal E1b1a, specifically haplotype IV.
Upper Egypt (n=66); V=24.2%, XI=28.8%, and IV=27.3%.
Lower Nubia (n=46); V=17.4%, XI=30.4%, and IV=39.1%
Lucotte & Mercier's et al. 2003
From Cruciani et al.
^ Notice even Arab Egyptians have small traces of E3a (E1b1a) although E3b is predominant.
The answer: West Africans and East Africans were never separated. Peoples moved back and forth the Sahel and especially the Saharan region before it became desert.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
One important group of people Egyptologists have long acknowledged as significant founders of Egyptians civilization would be the mysterious Anu people. Clyde Winters was going in the right direction with this but messed up when he called them "pygmies" which they weren't, nor do they have any known connection with actual Pygmies further south.
More info about them can be read here.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
^indeed, it just doesn't add up to be talking about Medjay, as major founders. That spot is already taken up by other groups such as the one you've just mentioned.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
i noticed that pan africanists HATE science! Science clearly debunks those wishful fantasies. Ancient egyptians were not west africans and not related to them.
Yet, it is I who insists on literally dragging you to USE SCIENCE to corroborate your opinionated suppositions, but that doesn't deter you from avoiding and hiding from your obligations to hold yourself accountable accordingly.
You've strangely convinced yourself that running away from calls to validate yourself will shelter you from exposing your credibility deficit, which of course, is preposterous. Not so? Then how have you managed to not be able to define your own terms as requested days and days ago?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed, this gal is obviously as delusional as the Euronnuts. He accuses everyone here of being "pan-Africanists". That may be true for a few but certainly not all of us let alone those of us veterans who are actually objective enough to rely on actual science and not some sort of African political idealism pan or Horner/Cushitic or what have you!
quote:Originally posted by KooKooKoLa: Buck teeth is not synonymous with alveolar prognathism. There is no reference of them having alveolar prognathism anyway. the skull of akhenaten talks by itself.
The pigmy mask...and Tut...dont match
Do you even know what alveolar prognathism is?? It is the projection of the dental part of the skull, specifically the front teeth, so YES that does mean 'buck-teeth'! And YES there are plenty of references to Egyptians having that as their most common form of prognathism among them (although there are Egyptians who have maxillary as well as full-frontal prognathisms also)!!
Harris and Wente note the prevalence of dental prognathism among Nubians. Often this is combined with malocclusion. Similar incidence can be found in other African peoples. For example, one study found that a sample taken from the Kenya showed 61.3% of Maasai had diastema; 84% of Kikuyu had overbite and 99% had overjet; and 24% of Kalenjin had anterior open bite. (J. Hassanali, GP Pokhariyal, "Anterior tooth relations in Kenyan Africans, Archives of Oral Biology 38 [Apr 1993] 337-42). Although these dental traits can often be acquired through habits like thumb-sucking, as noted by Harris and Wente, the high frequency in the royal mummies indicates a genetic origin as found in Africans.
LOL You obviously don't know what you're talking about.
By the way, what do Pygmies have anything to do with what I said? It was Clyde who claimed the proto-Egyptians to be Pygmies, not I!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by KooKooKoLa: where are the west african markers in south east Europe?LMAO
I just showed you, moron! LMAO There are 4 main types of variations of sickle cell; one in Eurasia is the Arab-Indian types, while 3 are African-- Senegal, Benin, and Bantu. The type found in southern Europe in general is Benin. Plus there are some HLA genes in Greeks that are West African. As far as Y-chromosome lineages, E1b1a is mainly found in Southwest Europe although there are only traces of it in southeast Europe. What does that have to do with the topic of Egypt where West African markers are more prevalent especially in the southern areas like hapotype IV?!
quote: Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology , Oct 2008 by Ricaut, F X, Waelkens, M
A late Pleistocene–early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace et al. 2005) and from archeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile valley origin of the “Mesolithic” (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al. 2001; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al. 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al. 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic–Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).
Now its explained it must be the same for Egypt like i said earlier, it must had entered Southern europe in the late Paleolithic/Mesolithic by the E1B1B1A carriers
LOL That source you cited was cited here years ago, so it is not new to me nor to the rest of the veterans in this forum. It's obviously new to YOU. And apparently you missed the part where it said that it originated in WEST Africa, so I highlighted it for you. So basically what they're saying is that if Benin HBS was carried by the Epipaleolithic forebears into the Levant by the Natufians then they must have inherited from West African ancestors, dummy. As again it talks about peoples migrating and moving around. If people moved from northeast Africa into the Levant and then into southern Europe, why is it so hard to believe that West Africans migrated across the Saharan region when it was green and fertile and then into the Nile Valley??
quote:Mtdna L3 is common to East africa and is the supposed parent of the eurasian M and N.
Yes but L3a derived lineages are also found in other areas of African including West and Central Africa. Your point?
quote:Mtdna U6 which is originally Eurasian, is common to Berbers
Actually that is a Eurocentric theory that has yet to be proven since U6 is found in both its highest frequency and diversity in North Africa, specifically Northwest Africa NOT Eurasia where only downstream forms are found in very low frequency.
quote:Y'all always clinged to the same old graphics, dont you?
Not my graphics and not my problem. YOUR problem of course is a failure at comprehension even of your own sources! Even the map above shows the presence of E1b1a (M2) and E1b1a (M58) in Egypt! LMAO Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by KooKooKoLa:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: One important group of people Egyptologists have long acknowledged as significant founders of Egyptians civilization would be the mysterious Anu people. Clyde Winters was going in the right direction with this but messed up when he called them "pygmies" which they weren't, nor do they have any known connection with actual Pygmies further south.
Hey, dummy! Where in my quote above did I say he was a Pygmy?!! It was Clyde who called him a Pygmy NOT I! In fact, I said Clyde is wrong as there is no evidence that these people were "Pygmies". The early inhabitants of Egypt were indeed short in stature but not that short! This makes me wonder, are you able to read what's in front of you or just what you imagine??
quote:This afro wearing man who bare-chested and holding a pastoral stick look like any Beja man.
Actually Lord Tera Neter doesn't appear to have an Afro as his hair is short.
This picture below looks more like it.
quote: [Useless Picture Spam]
come on y'all. let me see where are those afro & braids wearing redddish brownskinned west african tribes y'all love to talk about!
Of course you probably won't be satisfied and think the above are unusual for West Africa.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Manu (Member # 18974) on :
The Ancient Egyptians probably looked like a mixture between Afro-Asiatic speaking East Africans and Southwest Asians.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QUOTE]Originally posted by KooKooKoLa: where are the west african markers in south east Europe?LMAO
I just showed you, moron! LMAO There are 4 main types of variations of sickle cell; one in Eurasia is the Arab-Indian types, while 3 are African-- Senegal, Benin, and Bantu. The type found in southern Europe in general is Bantu. Plus there are some HLA genes in Greeks that are West African. As far as Y-chromosome lineages, E1b1a is mainly found in Southwest Europe although there are only traces of it in southeast Europe. What does that have to do with the topic of Egypt where West African markers are more prevalent especially in the southern areas like hapotype IV?!
quote: Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology , Oct 2008 by Ricaut, F X, Waelkens, M
A late Pleistocene–early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace et al. 2005) and from archeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile valley origin of the “Mesolithic” (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al. 2001; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al. 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al. 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic–Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994).
Indeed, and as they mention Greece, the historic era sees some African DNA markers showing up in Greeks as well, as noted years ago on ES.
Posted by Young African & Cultured (Member # 19426) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
quote:Originally posted by The Explorer:
No, "Cushitic speakers type" doesn't sound any better, because it is not the "scientific" response that I pressed for. And the location of Pwnt is far from being certain.
BTW, where do the AE claim to have come from Pwnt?
Didnt they call it Ta Netjer? Doesnt Ta Netjer means land of the Gods/Ancestors?
First of, how do you figure that "God" is interchangeable with "ancestors"?
Secondly, it should be read as "God", not "Gods"; the plural form of Neter is "Neteru"/"Neterou".
Thirdly, I have seen no evidence wherein the AE claim that they originated from Pwnt.
Fourthly, I haven't come across any AE text yet, that pointedly refers Pwnt as "Ta-Neter".
quote:
They imported Myhrr,Frankinscence, ivory and pigmies from there. Pnt was depicted with wild animals common to Africa.
Do pygmies live among the Beja?
quote: The puntites looked like the Ancient Egyptians. just like the Beja look like the Somalis and the Oromo..
Do you have any wall murals showing the "Beja" side by side with the AE? That would be the best way to tell if the AE saw it like you do.
quote: there was 2 ways to go there : road or boat (via the Red Sea)
this is obvious.
The Red Sea length spans Sudan all the way to Djibouti. It is the only other avenue to get to territories beyond Kush. This info doesn't make the precise location or extent of Pwnt "obvious".
So, do you think you are now up to the task of scientifically establishing your "Cushitic Speakers types"?
Also, do not forget that the reference of Punt as the "Land of the God" could have been the calque for Ancient Greek legends claiming that the Ancient Ethiopian land close to the ocean would be the favourite place of the Gods because of the festive mood it was providing. In this case, it would have nothing to do with geographical origin.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] The Ottoman Empire controlled Sudan, Eritrea and Somalia for 400 years. Can this explain the presence of Eurasian genes among populations in this area instead of a back migration?
Alwa Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.Alodia was the furthest of the Nubian states from the influences of Egypt and thus the last of the Nubian states to be converted to Islam. The conventional date for the final destruction of Alodia is the Funj conquest of the region in the early sixteenth century. Archaeological evidence seems to show that the kingdom was in decline as early as the thirteenth century. Near the end of this century al-Harrani reports that the capital had been moved to Wayula. Later Mamluk emissaries reported that the region was divided among nine rulers.
Alodia seems to have preserved its identity after the Funj conquest and its incorporation into the Kingdom of Sennar. The Alodians, who became known as the Abdallab, revolted under Ajib the Great and formed the semi-autonomous Kingdom of Dongola that persisted for several centuries.
The Funj Sultanate of Sennar (sometimes spelled Sinnar), known in Sudanese traditions as the Blue Sultanate (Arabic: السلطنة الزرقاء; As-Saltana az-Zarqa),[9] was a sultanate in the north of Sudan, named Funj after the ethnic group of its dynasty or Sinnar (or Sennar) after its capital, which ruled a substantial area of northeast Africa between 1504 and 1821.
The turks only controlled the northern sudan,remember they lost in the last half of the SUDAN 1800's and they seem to not have controlled Eritrea or Somalia .
I did not read most of what was said in this thread but i just had to correct this.
Posted by kenndo (Member # 4846) on :
Oh,and the turks by the way only ruled parts of northern sudan,not all of it, if you look at the maps. Bye folks.
Board: Cleopatra (2013)
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa:
Yoruba
LOL ...
^There's no way in the world that those people are Youruba. They don't even fit the body type.
Posted by Bettyboo (Member # 12987) on :
quote:Originally posted by KoKaKoLa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by KemsonReloaded: [qb] ps: Why did you show pics of mixed americans? LMAO i thought the Ancient Egyptians were Igbos? Yoruba? show yoruba, igbos then..
^You idiot. Those pics he showed are of Igbos and Yorubas and they aren't mixed or African American. One thing I agree with you about is that Yorubas and Igbos weren't part of AE. Yorubas may have come from the saharan north.
Posted by KoKaKoLa (Member # 19312) on :
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Either way, you shouldn't feel threatened, in the grand scheme of things I find that both of you hold extreme views in this case (the ancient Egyptians were of Beja "type" vs. the ancient Egyptians were separated from Beja-speakers for millenia and underwent a separate "evolutionary path"). ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Do you even know what alveolar prognathism is?? It is the projection of the dental part of the skull, specifically the front teeth, so YES that does mean 'buck-teeth'! And YES there are plenty of references to Egyptians having that as their most common form of prognathism among them (although there are Egyptians who have maxillary as well as full-frontal prognathisms also)!!![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
