This is topic Ancient African Chiefs of the Nile in their own image: Nubian, Libyan and Kemetian in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
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Tomb of the Libyan Osorkon "chief of the Meshwesh" 22nd dynasty


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Chief Khnum-hoteb II local governor of the Khemetiu 12th dynasty


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Libyo-Nubian Chief 26th Dynasty

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Chief Senuwosret I 12th dynasty

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Libyan Chief Siamun son of Osorkon I

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Tanuat-Amun "Nubian chief" 25th dynasty


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Chief Horemakhet "Nubian" son of Shabakah 25th

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Great Chief and conqueror Senwusret II (Sesostris II) 12th dynasty
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Why are you using the title of "chief" when these men clearly were of status higher than tribal chief.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Why are you using the title of "chief" when these men clearly were of status higher than tribal chief.

I never said anything about a tribe as I'm just using it in the sense of Paramount Chief or Chief of a polity. For example Kamehameha and the head of the Cherokee Confederacy may be considered Great or Paramount chiefs.

BTW - I hope you know most rulers of Egypt weren't called Pharaohs.

In any case, no insult intended. [Smile]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
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The "Libyan" Shoshenk I Libyan rulers styled themselves "Great Chief of the Meshwesh" 22nd dynasty


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Sheshonq II 22nd Libyan dynasty son of Sheshonk and "Chief of th Meshwesh"

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Input II Libyan "Berber" King 23rd dynasty

Piankhi called the 23rd dynasty Libyans Input II and Shoshenk's descendants "all the feather-wearing chiefs of Lower Egypt" p. 394 The Rise and Fall of Ancient Egypt


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Shabaqah 25th dynasty "Nubian" one of the line of rulers of Napatan origin

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Founding Chief Manu Narmar and Uniter of the Two lands of the Khemetiu


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Ramses "the Great" 19th dynasty looking much like Barack Obama. [Wink] Grandson of Ramses I

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Tahutmuse father of "Amenophis II" an Amarna period ruler looking much like his co-regent and stepmother Hatshepsowet. Of course the Amarna rulers proved to be related to southern Africans genetically and Africans of the Great Lakes region
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
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Strange appearing and disrespectful descendants of the dreaded Eurasiatics gaze open mouthed over the skeleton of an African boy - once king of the two lands of the Khemitiu- who died tragically of Sickle Cell disease common to his Nilotic people. Tut-Ankh-Amun, an Amarna period ruler of Nile valley peoples, 18th dynasty.

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
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Montuhoteb II great African chief and conqueror of the 11th Khemetiu dynasty wears the Red Crown of Lower Egypt.

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The powerful Nilotic King Djoser of the 2nd dynasty and great master mason introduced a magnificent form of architecture called the step pyramid of Saqqara.


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Many pyramids had names. The 5th dynasty great African King Sahu-ra or SahuRe (above) built a pyramid which he would come to name "The Ba of Sahure gleams" or "the Soul of Sahure shines".

Like the African Himyarites further East, the African chiefs of the Nile were quite literally "Such Men of Whom Myths were Made".
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
All these are darkskinned Caucasiods from Eurasia, the Caucasus mountians. It's clear.
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Taharqa 25th Dynasty (Nubian/Kushite Dynasty)


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King Amenhotep III, 18th Dynasty, Neues Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Menkaure, 4th Dynasty, Brussels Museum


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King Djedefre, 4th Dynasty, Louvre Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Amenhotep III, 18th Dynasty, Emory University Museum


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King Tutankhamun, 18th Dynasty, Mougins Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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Tomb of King Tanwetamani, 25th Dynasty, Kushite(Nubian) Dynasty


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King Amenhemhat I, 12th Dynasty, Cairo Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Tanwetamani, 25th Dynasty, Kushite Dynasty, Brooklyn Museum


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King Tuthmosis II, 18th Dynasty, Aswan Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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Head of Ramesses I, 19th Dynasty, Boston MFA Museum


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Queen Hatshepsut or Tuthmose III, 18th Dynasty, Louvre Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Ahmose I, 18th Dynasty, Metropolitan Museum


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King Thutmose III, Dynasty 18
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Niuserre, 5th Dynasty, Brooklyn Museum


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King Shabataka, 25th Dynasty, Kushite-Nubian Dynasty
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Ay, 18th Dynasty

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King Nectanebo I, 30th Dynasty
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Senwosret I (Sesostris in Greek), 12th Dynasty


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Prince Nefer-Maat, son of King Snofru, Dynasty 4
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Taharqa, 25th Dynasty, Kushite-Nubian Dynasty


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King Taharqa, 25th Dynasty, Kushite-Nubian Dynasty, Shrine of Taharqa, Oxford Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Senwosret II, 12th Dynasty, Glyptotek Museum


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King Tutankhamum and his wife, 18th Dynasty
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Psamtik I, 26th Dynasty, Metropolitan Museum


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King Aspelta, 25th Dynasty, Nuri Pyramid Nubia
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Piankhi (Piye), 25th Dynasty, Kushite-Nubian Dynasty


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King Senwosret III, 12th Dynasty, Fitzwilliam Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Amenemhat I, 12th Dynasty


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King Amenemhat III, 12th Dynasty, Altemps Museum
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Mentuhotep II, 11th Dynasty, British Museum


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King Amenemhat I, Dynasty 12, Metropolitan Museum
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
You all are unfair and dishounest, these are clearly whites and dark skinned from Eurasia, from the caucasus mountain region where they lived with dogs in caves. Then magically became supreme founders of civilization.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL No need to mock the trolls. This thread causes them enough anguish.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

I never said anything about a tribe as I'm just using it in the sense of Paramount Chief or Chief of a polity. For example Kamehameha and the head of the Cherokee Confederacy may be considered Great or Paramount chiefs.

BTW - I hope you know most rulers of Egypt weren't called Pharaohs.

In any case, no insult intended. [Smile]

I get what you're saying. I guess it turns the whole Eurocentric label of African chief on it's head.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL No need to mock the trolls. This thread causes them enough anguish.
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

I never said anything about a tribe as I'm just using it in the sense of Paramount Chief or Chief of a polity. For example Kamehameha and the head of the Cherokee Confederacy may be considered Great or Paramount chiefs.

BTW - I hope you know most rulers of Egypt weren't called Pharaohs.

In any case, no insult intended. [Smile]

I get what you're saying. I guess it turns the whole Eurocentric label of African chief on it's head.
 -

 -
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ Neanderthals in Europe, between about 40,000 and 30,000 years ago
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes YOUR hairy ancestors, twit! So quit with the black girl act! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
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King Senwosret II, 12th Dynasty, Glyptotek Museum


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King Tutankhamum and his wife, 18th Dynasty

Now I hope people see why I had thought there was something southern African or "Bantuish" about these people. Funny how never see this kind of picture posted of TutAnkhAmun around the internet.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes YOUR hairy ancestors, twit! So quit with the black girl act! [Big Grin]

Ditto.lol!
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ dana, you have got to be kidding these sculptures are severely damaged, nose and mouth missing etc.

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Tutankhamun, Luxor Museum

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seating statue of Pharaoh Senusret (Sesostris I) also (Senwosret I))One of the ten which were found in almost perfect condition at El-Lisht, this limestone statue is of Sesostris I. Photographed at the Cairo Museum in October of 1965. Located in: Egyptian Museum, Cairo.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
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The "Libyan" Shoshenk I "Great Chief of the Meshwesh" 22nd dynasty NON-NEGROID NUMBER 1 of the Euronut

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King Senwosret II, 12th Dynasty, Glyptotek Museum
NON-NEGROID NUMBER 2 - Zahi's non-black-African ancestor (according to Zahi)?

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NON-NEGROID 60 % Caucasoid (according to the EUronut) NUMBER 3

And obviously no true Negroes here. [Cool]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^^ dana, you have got to be kidding these sculptures are severely damaged, nose and mouth missing etc.

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Tutankhamun, Luxor Museum

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seating statue of Pharaoh Senusret (Sesostris I) also (Senwosret I))One of the ten which were found in almost perfect condition at El-Lisht, this limestone statue is of Sesostris I. Photographed at the Cairo Museum in October of 1965. Located in: Egyptian Museum, Cairo.

White woman - don't worry we all know these are your Neandernut ancestors. Rest at ease.

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I mean the resemblance is obvious. [Cool]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Funny how all the dynasties looked alike from the first to the last native Egyptian and even the Libyan and Nubian ones in between.

And now I think you should all know it has been discovered by Euronut NUMBER 1 of the hamitic league where these Non-Negroids get their Nordic features.

Direct from the pseudoEuronutic forum comes this superb analysis:

“The only race with all these traits is the Nordic. The bulk of the population was of the brown Mediterranean race, which differs from the Nordic in being orthocephalic (of moderate skull height) instead of high-headed, medium-headed instead of long-headed, and pentagonoid (shaped a bit like a pentagon when seen from above) instead of ellipsoidal.
Dart traces four major Nordic invasions of Egypt, the first being the Badarian of pre-dynastic times. Gradually, the Nordics arrived less frequently, until a new invasion replenished them.
Dart tells us that the Nordic race is “the Egyptian Pharaonic type.” He describes the head of Rameses II, which he calls “pelagic ellipsoidal or Nordic” and says, “It is found in earlier times in Pepi I and other kings of Egypt.” He doesn’t mention it, but the mummy of Rameses II has yellow hair too.[57] Under a microscope his hair form is Nordic too.”

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/07/22/the-faces-of-ancient-egypt/

From the Nordic Badarians. Why didn't we Afronuts think of it. Are actually that deluded that we couldn't see from the blond and auburn and OBVIOUSLY straight Nordic hair on the mummies that Badarians were more like Scandinavians than like southern Africans.

Shame on us or I should say you deluded Afronuts for not noticing the Nordic character of these people!

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ABOVE: Badarian NORDIC of Caucasoid Hamitic union origin.

I can almost see the Atlanto-Mediterranean in this woman. Can't you? [Confused] [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
You all are unfair and dishounest, these are clearly whites and dark skinned from Eurasia, from the caucasus mountain region where they lived with dogs in caves. Then magically became supreme founders of civilization.

Clearly we are.

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Tomb of the Libyan Osorkon "chief of the Meshwesh" 22nd dynasty

You words truly resonate with me Patrol. And it is clear the great Libyan chiefs of the Meshwesh must have also come down after the Egyptians - great Nordic Aryans warriors from the Carpathian mountains and turned near black from the great heat of the sun.

Either that or they just loved to depict themselves looking like skinny Fulani and Ethiopians. [Big Grin]

Looks like that sun also thinned their bones out as well, except for those that traveled to the mountains of the Maghreb and turned blond, blue eyed and big-boned. [Wink]
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
We can also look at the great Caucasian Kushites and see that they must have bore some relationship to the Nordic.

Ancient Armies of the Middle East, 1981. Terence Wise Angus McBride

"Further south, above the Third cataract, were the vile Kush or Kesh who were not Negroes but Caucasians, ancestors of the Ethiopians. Both Herodotus and Egyptian monuments segregate the Kush into two main types a straight haired race and a woolly haired race dwelling to the east and west of the Nile respectively." p. 21

So as we can see, Euronuts can be scholars too. They actually do know what they are talking about for as we can remember the vast majority of Kushites have straight hair east of the Nile.

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Straight-haired Oromo women (yes it looks a little frizzly here but a bit of cattle grease usually sleaks it down nice and Nordic-like to show off that 60% Caucasoid)

 - A Karrayu KUSHITE

Despite the apparent woolliness of 80 - 90 % of the hair of the modern Kushitic populations, as one can see from the auburn blond hairs in this man's head, his relatively narrow nose, comfortably thin lips and famously long triangular faces common to ancient Libyan and Nubian pottery, most preserve the ancient Nordic Badarian type hair structure coiled from the sun. Again a little grease/butter can dramatically bring out the Nordic beauty in these "darkened by the sun" hamitic Caucasians.

They would probably not qualify for the hamitic union board though. [Wink]


All joking aside though it should be noted that many European academics still promote hamitic Caucasoid theory that has been become for the most part obsolete in America.

"it is strange to note that the modern Hamite Ethiopian series (Tigre) and even Somali-Galla remain virtually exempt of any black contribution. The Ethiopian plateaus must therefore have remained far from the currents of black immigration which took the natural route of the Nile, whether during the dynastic period or later and more intensively, from the beginning of our era on..."


Population changes in Egypt and Nubia; G. Billy

Faculté des Sciences, 123 Rue Albert Thomas, 87060 - Limoges Cedex, France 19 September 2006.

Yes this is what they are still teaching in some places. BELIEVE IT!

So if you want to know why Euronuts are harassing the board and calling you the crazy ones, - all you have to do is look at what academics are still teaching in some institutions of higher learning (I guess) in Europe.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Funny how all the dynasties looked alike from the first to the last native Egyptian and even the Libyan and Nubian ones in between..

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/exclusives-nfrm/051217_egypt1.htm

Study Traces Egyptians’ Stone-Age Roots
Dec. 17, 2005
Special to World Science

Some 64 centuries ago, a prehistoric people of obscure origins farmed an area along Egypt’s Nile River.
Barely out of the Stone Age, they produced simple but well-made pottery, jewelry and stone tools, and carefully buried their dead with ritual objects in apparent preparation for an afterlife. These items often included doll-like female figurines with exaggerated sexual features, thought to possibly symbolize rebirth.
Despite the simplicity of their possessions, a new study suggests these people, the Badarians, may have ultimately given rise to one of the world’s first major civilizations some 14 centuries later: the glittering culture of Egypt.
Indeed, the Egyptians seem to have been basically the same people from the end of the Stone Age through late Roman times, the research found.



"These [Badarian Egyptian ancestors]... were long-headed--dolicocephalic is the learned term--and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock, a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time."
Sir Alan Gardiner, Egypt of the Pharaohs (1966)

Apparently not all academic studies, even the old ones, are inaccurate.

quote:
Shame on us or I should say you deluded Afronuts for not noticing the Nordic character of these people!

 -
ABOVE: Badarian NORDIC of Caucasoid Hamitic union origin.

I can almost see the Atlanto-Mediterranean in this woman. Can't you? [Confused] [Roll Eyes]

LOL The comedy never ends.
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
 -
The "Libyan" Shoshenk I "Great Chief of the Meshwesh" 22nd dynasty NON-NEGROID NUMBER 1 of the Euronut

Here's a better photo of "Shoshenk I"
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Head of a king "Shoshenk I"(probably) Dyn 21 or 22, Cleveland Museum
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

Funny how all the dynasties looked alike from the first to the last native Egyptian and even the Libyan and Nubian ones in between..

http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/exclusives-nfrm/051217_egypt1.htm

Study Traces Egyptians’ Stone-Age Roots
Dec. 17, 2005
Special to World Science

Some 64 centuries ago, a prehistoric people of obscure origins farmed an area along Egypt’s Nile River.
Barely out of the Stone Age, they produced simple but well-made pottery, jewelry and stone tools, and carefully buried their dead with ritual objects in apparent preparation for an afterlife. These items often included doll-like female figurines with exaggerated sexual features, thought to possibly symbolize rebirth.
Despite the simplicity of their possessions, a new study suggests these people, the Badarians, may have ultimately given rise to one of the world’s first major civilizations some 14 centuries later: the glittering culture of Egypt.
Indeed, the Egyptians seem to have been basically the same people from the end of the Stone Age through late Roman times, the research found.



"These [Badarian Egyptian ancestors]... were long-headed--dolicocephalic is the learned term--and below even medium stature, but Negroid features are often to be observed. Whatever may be said of the northerners, it is safe to describe the dwellers in Upper Egypt as of essentially African stock, a character always retained despite alien influences brought to bear on them from time to time."
Sir Alan Gardiner, Egypt of the Pharaohs (1966)

Apparently not all academic studies, even the old ones, are inaccurate.



 -
ABOVE: Badarian NORDIC of Caucasoid Hamitic union origin.

I can almost see the Atlanto-Mediterranean in this woman. Can't you? [Confused] [Roll Eyes]

LOL The comedy never ends. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Yes like father Alan Gardiner like grandson Martin Bernal. Now we know why Bernal can't go along with the more scholarly Euronuts.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^ Neanderthals in Europe, between about 40,000 and 30,000 years ago

Which is total BULLSHS*T and nonsense. They rather represent Neolithics.

So out of all the posts you had to respond to this, to defend your Khazarian history. LOOOOOL
 
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
 
Nice images.
 
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^^ dana, you have got to be kidding these sculptures are severely damaged, nose and mouth missing etc.

 -
Tutankhamun, Luxor Museum

 -
seating statue of Pharaoh Senusret (Sesostris I) also (Senwosret I))One of the ten which were found in almost perfect condition at El-Lisht, this limestone statue is of Sesostris I. Photographed at the Cairo Museum in October of 1965. Located in: Egyptian Museum, Cairo.

You try so goddawm hard to take ancient Egyptians out of the African context it's ridiculous and and this point HILARIOUS!!!!! And besides all that, morphologically the still look "AFRICAN".

Luxor Museum, Egypt.

This statue represents Tutankhamun as Amun and it was discovered in the Karnak temple Cachette in 1904. The statue is 155cm high and is carved from Limestone.

In this statue he is wearing the twin plumes of Amun. His hands hold the Isis knot and he is standing with his left foot advanced.

Tutankhamun, in the popular theory, restored the cult of Amun after the death of Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV), and he changed his name from Tutankhaten (living image of Aten) to (living image of Amun). This was very probably politically expedient, and even necessary for his continued reign. Theories about his parentage, life and death are abound.



Been there, done that!


 -


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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Considering the recent fuss about African hair going on in other threads, I think I should point this out..
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

We can also look at the great Caucasian Kushites and see that they must have bore some relationship to the Nordic.

Ancient Armies of the Middle East, 1981. Terence Wise Angus McBride

"Further south, above the Third cataract, were the vile Kush or Kesh who were not Negroes but Caucasians, ancestors of the Ethiopians. Both Herodotus and Egyptian monuments segregate the Kush into two main types, a straight haired race and a woolly haired race, dwelling to the east and west of the Nile respectively." p. 21

So as we can see, Euronuts can be scholars too. They actually do know what they are talking about for as we can remember the vast majority of Kushites have straight hair east of the Nile...

Dana, is this not proof enough that such straight hair is as much native to Africa as wooly hair?? [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^ Neanderthals in Europe, between about 40,000 and 30,000 years ago

Which is total BULLSHS*T and nonsense. They rather represent Neolithics.

So out of all the posts you had to respond to this, to defend your Khazarian history. LOOOOOL

http://www.indiatalkies.com/2011/05/neanderthals-died-10000-yrs-earlier-previously-thought.html

 -


 -
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
 -
King Senwosret II, 12th Dynasty, Glyptotek Museum


 -
King Tutankhamum and his wife, 18th Dynasty

Now I hope people see why I had thought there was something southern African or "Bantuish" about these people. Funny how never see this kind of picture posted of TutAnkhAmun around the internet.
According to the DNA Tribes study of their autosomal STR they are genetically Bantu (who are close themselves to Tropical West Africans and to other Africans such as Sahelian Africans and Horn Africans to a lower degree):

 -
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes, by STRs the Egyptians do cluster with Bantus though I'd be careful about calling such genetic affinities themselves 'Bantu' since they predate any Bantu languages and perhaps Niger-Congo.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
I had alwasy thought the physical build of the ancient Egyptians looked curiously like many modern Bantu speakers of southern Africa but I definitely didn't expect that the Amarna period people would have come out so southern African. In fact they look the least Bantuish of all the dynastic groups in my opinion.

On the other hand considering who Tut's mother was and the appearance of both Tiye and Akenaton i guess I shouldn't have been so surprised.
I would have thought they would have had more connection to the Beja or even Tigrai but in any case, we will have to look at future studies since some people are saying there haven't been enough STR's being analysed.

In the end, I think the fact that the least African-appearing of all the Intermediate dynasties (in my opinion) comes out so southern African means future studies will surely shock the h--l out of racists in the coming decades.

I am wondering if they can't get more specific taking samples from such people as the Haratin, Teda or Tibu groups.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Let's not make the mistake of confusing bio-genesis for ethno-genesis as Keita likes to warn. Bantu is a linguistic-cultural group. STRs are one type of genetic information. Genes for facial form are another set of genetic information. Neither pieces of evidence have an exact correlation with either. The genes are obviously far older than the language or culture.
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes, by STRs the Egyptians do cluster with Bantus though I'd be careful about calling such genetic affinities themselves 'Bantu' since they predate any Bantu languages and perhaps Niger-Congo.

There's no need to be careful, twist, deny, temper, modify the DNA tribe results or the analysis of it. We're not talking about languages here but people (the genetic analysis of people). Whatever languages (or form of) they were speaking at the time, Bantu **people** are the closest modern day descendants of the Ancient Egyptians (according to the results).

According to the DNA Tribes results, the Ancient Egyptian mummies are genetically most similar to modern day Bantu (and Africans in general).

That's why (among other things) we do ethnic analysis of Ancient Egyptian mummies DNA. To know their closest genetic modern relatives. Modern day Italians may be the descendants of Ancient Romans, but we give different names to their language since they are not mutually intelligible. Ancient Romans weren't speaking Italian (per se). I think no people on earth have their current language mutually intelligible with the language spoken by their ancestors 5000 years ago.
 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Considering the recent fuss about African hair going on in other threads, I think I should point this out..
quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:

We can also look at the great Caucasian Kushites and see that they must have bore some relationship to the Nordic.

Ancient Armies of the Middle East, 1981. Terence Wise Angus McBride

"Further south, above the Third cataract, were the vile Kush or Kesh who were not Negroes but Caucasians, ancestors of the Ethiopians. Both Herodotus and Egyptian monuments segregate the Kush into two main types, a straight haired race and a woolly haired race, dwelling to the east and west of the Nile respectively." p. 21

So as we can see, Euronuts can be scholars too. They actually do know what they are talking about for as we can remember the vast majority of Kushites have straight hair east of the Nile...

Dana, is this not proof enough that such straight hair is as much native to Africa as wooly hair?? [Embarrassed]
Djehuti - I hope you were joking about this. Of course the straight haired pastoral race accustomed to wearing horse heads or skins that Herodotus and Arrian spoke of was according to him south of "the Indi" along the Indus in Bauluchistan/Makran to Saurashtra probably in the exact region of the early black people then known as Jats or Zotti. They, like the pastoral "Ethiopians" of Herodotus were of incredible stature, and many still are and identical in customs to the Ethiopians of similar appearance and height. The same description was applied to the Solymi with their horse heads who the Greeks said spoke a dialect of the Phoenician type. The Ethiopian Solymi (Sulaymi?) who were likely of Arabian/Hebraic descent - like other very tall very black Arabians of the Azd/Mazin group- probably formed a link between Ethiopians of the West and East.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
??? how old is the bantu language group?

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes, by STRs the Egyptians do cluster with Bantus though I'd be careful about calling such genetic affinities themselves 'Bantu' since they predate any Bantu languages and perhaps Niger-Congo.


 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
??? how old is the bantu language group?

Asking how old doesn't mean anything since language are always in evolution. For example, old english form is very hard to comprehend for modern english speakers. Same thing for Bantu. Bantu past language form is not not mutually intelligible in general with modern Bantu languages. It doesn't mean it's not the same language, spoken by our ancestors, which evolved through time like english or any language of the world.

In linguistic we usually give a different name to past language form which are not mutually intelligible with the current form of the language.
 
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Sometimes I wonder where our heads are...

several mis-conception in your statement

1. The STRs are enough. Plug the JAMA STRs into ANY freely available pop-affinity software on the web and they all come up black/negro/african for the Amarnas. Depending on the label they use. This software is available in German websites, Canadian, San Diego police websites etc. Many prefer at least 9 STRs. But even when you plug in "caucasoid" STRs for the unknown STRs. The affinity returned is still BLACK.

2. Bantuish?? "Caucasoids" features are found in some West Africans bantus that live in Philadelphia.


3. Remember 1 in 500 Nigerians have red hair, freckels and lighter skin.

People...please keep up.


quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
.... In fact they look the least Bantuish of all the dynastic groups in my opinion.

..... there haven't been enough STR's being analysed.

. . . . the least African-appearing of ....
.


 
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by xyyman:
Sometimes I wonder where our heads are...

several mis-conception in your statement

1. The STRs are enough. Plug the JAMA STRs into ANY freely available pop-affinity software on the web and they all come up black/negro/african for the Amarnas. Depending on the label they use. This software is available in German websites, Canadian, San Diego police websites etc. Many prefer at least 9 STRs. But even when you plug in "caucasoid" STRs for the unknown STRs. The affinity returned is still BLACK.

2. Bantuish?? "Caucasoids" features are found in some West Africans bantus that live in Philadelphia.


3. Remember 1 in 500 Nigerians have red hair, freckels and lighter skin.

People...please keep up.


quote:
Originally posted by dana marniche:
.... In fact they look the least Bantuish of all the dynastic groups in my opinion.

..... there haven't been enough STR's being analysed.

. . . . the least African-appearing of ....
.


"there haven't been enough STR's being analysed" Umm - I'm pretty sure I mentioned that was another argument on another forum not mine. That's like me assuming this is your argument from the Dienekes site?

"They seem to indicate that there is something definitely "African" about this collection of mummies. I have previously used PopAffiliator and STRUCTURE with CODIS markers. The results of that analysis suggest that even this small number of markers is sufficient to place a sample in a continental group with high accuracy, but insufficient to estimate levels of admixture. There is a new version of PopAffiliator, which, unfortunately, does not allow for incomplete data entry, and hence cannot be used to verify the results of the DNA Tribes analysis.

The DNA Tribes results are interesting, but may hinge upon a few marker values that are more prevalent in Africa than in Eurasia. Also, it is not clear which population(s) make up the "North African" group. It would be interesting to extract full genome sequences from Egyptian mummies in order to properly place them in the global genetic landscape."


"Bantuish" is being used by me for the stereotype created by Europeans, Somali and other east Africans. I could have put it in quotes, nevertheless, its fine to ask people to "keep up" as long as we are trying to understand things we are reading in context.

BTW - It works both ways. If certain features that are found on BANTU people in Philadelphia or southern Africa are characteristic of Bantu-speakers than they are not "Caucasoid" features are they.

Yeah -I wonder too a lot where our heads are.

Lastly as far as I am concerned 1 in less than 500 African Americans have freckles and 1 in less than 500 Sicilians and East European Jews have woolly hair every probably for the same reasons Nigerians have freckles and red hair. [Wink]

So if the phrase "African-appearing" offended anyone, that is another argument.
 
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Good work on these pics Dana and Amun Ra.
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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Queen Tiye (Tiya), 18th dynasty


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Queen Tiye, 18th Dynasty


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Queen Ahmose-Nefertari, founder of 18th Dynasty
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

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Queen Tiye, 18th Dynasty

Actually this 18th dynasty alabaster bust depicts Kiya, a minor wife of Akhenaten. Unless you have info that suggests otherwise(?)
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

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Queen Tiye, 18th Dynasty

Actually this 18th dynasty alabaster bust depicts Kiya, a minor wife of Akhenaten. Unless you have info that suggests otherwise(?)
I would also be curious where you got your info from? This bust has been attributed to Tiye and Kiya and others but it is said "the face more closely resembles later representations of Tiye" according to the Metropolitan Museum.

Here's other representations of Queen Tiye:

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Queen Tiye

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Queen Tiye


Here's pictures of her daughter Sitamun


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Queen Sitamun, daughter of Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III


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Queen Sitamun, daughter of Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

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I would also be curious where you got your info from? This bust has been attributed to Tiye and Kiya and others but it is said "the face more closely resembles later representations of Tiye" according to the Metropolitan Museum.

That's curious, because the bust's identity as Kiya is stated in every book I've read and even the museum here in Atlanta that featured the bust called it Kiya. The face of the bust differs slightly from depictions of Tiye whose face has been mostly consistent.

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The alabaster bust has more prominent cheekbones and a wider nose and less prominent chin than most of Tiye's portraits, also they were found in association with the Amarna period which was during Akhenaten's reign.

By the way, judging by the features of the busts, Tiye in her youth would look just like the woman below except darker in complexion.

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
African arts in general like in Ancient Kemet are not meant to be very realistic (they present a level of abstraction), but we could say this representation:

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Could represent any of those women:

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Personally I think the first one seems to be the closest. But they could all be great matches.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

African arts in general like in Ancient Kemet are not meant to be very realistic (they present a level of abstraction)...

This is true to a certain extent, however there are cases in African artwork where there is realism meant to convey exact likeness especially in the case of royals.

Take the Benin bronzes for example.

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In terms of style and realism, the Benin bronzes bear a striking resemblance to the Giza heads of Egypt. What's interesting is that like Nigerians, the Egyptians also have a tradition of creating busts of their ancestors and deceased relatives which they use to honor their spirits. Ausar once pointed out the fact that ancient Egyptian households had busts of deceased ancestors the same way Nigerian households do.
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
[qb]
African arts in general like in Ancient Kemet are not meant to be very realistic (they present a level of abstraction)...

This is true to a certain extent, however there are cases in African artwork where there is realism meant to convey exact likeness especially in the case of royals.

Take the Benin bronzes for example.

That's true. I was really thinking about those examples when I said "in general". There's a different degrees of realism and abstraction in African and Ancient Kemet arts. Sometimes it can be as simple as being made younger, looked like the current king (that is even when the king is not the subject of the representation), or more abstract like being made in the image (through the lenses) of a Deity or animal. Obviously it is often even more abstract that this (playing with forms like triangular eyes, a simple line for a nose, etc, etc).
 
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
AmenRa the ultimate I hope you repost your threads every one or two weeks because your unique threads have pictures of beautiful Egyptian statues.

Those Benin bronze from Nigeria are very beautiful and realistic.Ibo, Yoruba, Haussa and Fulani scholars claimed their peoples were one of the tribes of Panafrican Egypt.
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
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King Amenemhat V, 13th Dynasty


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King Khufu (Kheops in Ancient Greek), 4th Dynasty
 
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
It is very strange there is only two surviving statues of the famous Pharaoh Khufu builder of the first great pyramid of Giza. One is a very small statue were he is aseat on a throne, the other is that damage head posted by Amunra the ultimate.
 
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by mena7:
It is very strange there is only two surviving statues of the famous Pharaoh Khufu builder of the first great pyramid of Giza. One is a very small statue were he is aseat on a throne, the other is that damage head posted by Amunra the ultimate.

Considering he is from the 4th Dynasty, so very very long ago, we are lucky to have just one. Conquering dynasties (including decentralized intermediate period, foreign occupiers (Assyrians, etc), native dynasties) tended to destroy/vandalize past vestiges. That's why most Ancient Egyptians vestiges are either destroyed or vandalized or lost.
 
Posted by Bonampak420 (Member # 20156) on :
 
Nakht With his Family Hunting the Nile Marshes

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Check this out.
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Another one in Another area of painting
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Posted by KingMichael777 (Member # 20401) on :
 
Does anyone has more pictures of early Libyans being depicted as ingenious Africans?

Thanks in advance.
 


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