MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE ABOUT THE DIFFERENT ANCIENT EGYPTIANS HAIR STYLES:
Here 3 different representation of the same person: Hery-Ra (Herire, Herira) first known physicians of Ancient Egypt (and thus the world). He bore the title "Chief of Dentists and Physicians" among others. Here's from the 3rd Dynasty.
Here's 3 version of Hery-Ra:
Close up of third version of Hesire:
The first on the left, seems to sport a short wig, the second image of him a long wig and the last image on the right, no wig at all.
Like all African people around the world nowadays, Ancient Kemites used many types of style for their hair from bald to extension, natural, wig, braided, mix of those, etc. One of the reason Egyptians used so much wig and hair extensions was to prevent infections with lice which was widespread in that period. Also to protect against the sun and for ceremonial/traditional reasons.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Funarary statue of a man painted ebony, 11th Dynasty Gulbekian Museum
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Dynasty 12
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Model Funeral Boat, Middle Kingdom
Model Granary, Middle Kingdom
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Maiherpri, 18th Dynasty
Lady Mi
Queen Nodjhet
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Priest during Ramesside Period, Louvre
Priest Head, 18th Dynasty, Neueus Mus
Statuette of a Kneeling Priest, Dyn 20, Cheveland Museum
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Prevention of Lice and parasitic infections
Maybe I should have post this post and link at the start of this thread. Braids and hair extensions is something that was and still is popular across African populations around the world (diaspora and continental). Ancient Egyptians of all social groups used it for many reasons: daily use, be fashionable, ceremonially (tradition), protect from the sun and even, probably mainly, for medical reason:
The removal of the natural hair and subsequent adoption of wigs was also a hygienic measure and greatly reduced the health risks associated with parasitic infestation, particularly head lice (Pediculus humanus capitis).
Indeed, the Greek historian Herodotus stated that “Egyptian priests shave their bodies all over every other day to guard against the presence of lice , or anything else equally unpleasant, while they are about their religious duties.” The hair used in the construction of wigs and hair extensions was human, and was either an individual’s own hair or had been traded for, hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun. Once the required amounts of hair had been collected, it would be sorted into lengths and any tangles removed with fine-toothed combs which also removed any lice eggs, traces of which can still sometimes be found between their teeth. Using an impressive array of hairdressing tools, the wigmakers would then work the prepared lengths of hair into an assortment of braids, plaits or curls depending upon the style required, with each piece coated in a warmed beeswax and resin fixative mixture which would harden when cooled. Since the melting point of beeswax is 140°–145°F, this method of securing the hair would have been effective even in Egypt’s extreme climate.
^ Mind you, the shaving of the body is a common practice in many African cultures especially Nilotic cultures in east Africa. Body hair was disdained for aesthetic purposes as well as perhaps for hygiene purpose (body lice). Though body shaving was done much more frequently by the priesthood for the purpose of ritual purity which is why they shave themselves every other day.
You are absolutely correct about the importance of wigs in African cultures both for aesthetics as well as ritual purposes and symbols of status. This heavy use of wigs especially artificial wigs made from plant fibers is something commonly found in West Africa much more than East Africa which is why I think the tradition was brought into Egypt from ancestors in the western desert.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Nice roundup.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
It's a shame that there are not many studies put out on Egyptian wigs. Practically the only expert we know of on this topic is Dr. Joanne Fletcher who still has some Eurocentric bias. The only scholar I know that goes into the African nature and style of Egyptian wigs is Diop, and it was through his writings that I learned of such wig traditions in West Africa. Does anyone else know of the similarities or correlations between Egyptian wigs and those of other Africans??
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
______ ____________^^^^^ Why did you say Hesire is not wearing a wig here?
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: no wig at all.
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Probably because wigs usually cover the ears whereas a natural afro grows around the ears. Of course the wig could be styled in such a way as to expose the ears.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Probably because wigs usually cover the ears whereas a natural afro grows around the ears. Of course the wig could be styled in such a way as to expose the ears.
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: A Walk Through the Alleys of Ancient Egypt By Abeer El-Shahawy, Farid S. Atiya
^ Okay? And your point?
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Probably because wigs usually cover the ears whereas a natural afro grows around the ears. Of course the wig could be styled in such a way as to expose the ears.
The Egyptian Museum in Cairo: A Walk Through the Alleys of Ancient Egypt By Abeer El-Shahawy, Farid S. Atiya
I guess everything in this world is subjective (or in need of intellectual fairness). I guess somehow I could finger point any artistic depiction of natural hair as being a wig. The third representation due to it's differences with other representations, due to its form, texture and appearance in general looks like natural hair. Ancient Egyptians often make symbolic (traditional) representation of things. So things that look different are different things not a different representation of the same thing. Here we see 3 different Ancient Egyptians hair styles. The third one looks like natural hair.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
You said # 3 was natural hair but you didn't really know. I am not sure myself but the above book says all three were wigs. Some wigs, as we know look just like natural hair.
here is #2 You can't tell by looking if it is a wig or is not a wig because natural hair can be styled like this. Therefore even if it is a wig I wouldn't say "it looks like a wig"
_________________________________________________________ Is this a wig? I don't know. If it was a wig you couldn't wear other wigs because it is too big and puffy for them to rest on it. This is not Hesire though.
The interesting thing with Hesire is that he had three such different looking wigs, but the book says that he as at different ages in each panel.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Amun-Ra The Ultimate, here is a method to reduce photo size so you can post it and it's not too big for readability in the forum. (or you can enlage) You may know it already:
1) select photo
2) IN View: Zoom Out or Zoom in
3) screen capture by
in Mac- Control Shift 4
In PC (Windows 7), snip tool (scissors)
-drag a rectangle
-when finished a picture has been taken and a file icon has appeared on the desktop
4) go to an image host and upload the image from browse desktop, then copy and paste html code into forum (sometimes [IMG] code is already made so you can skip [ Image ] in forum and put the URL code directly into the forum post box
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
AmunRa, leave the lyinass twit alone! Just say yes it's a wig so she'll stop bitching. At the end of the day it doesn't matter because all these wigs still portray AFRICAN hair. Even if the afro is a wig, it's still an Afro!
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
Even if this is a wig, why would the Egyptians wear an afro wig? My first thought is that therefore Hesire who lived in the Third Dynasty might be negro
^^^^ However he doesn't look very Negro here. The lips are small. the mouth opening is not wide, he has no prognathis his nose has a slight outer curve, his forehead doesn't receed much. Either he was not African, part African or an African of a type very unlike most Africans, particulary West Africans. Without question his features are more European/Middel Eastern looking than the vast majority of Africans. That doesn't mean he is European/Middle Eastern but it makes you wonder.
.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: MY FAVORITE EXAMPLE ABOUT THE DIFFERENT ANCIENT EGYPTIANS HAIR STYLES:
Here 3 different representation of the same person: Hery-Ra (Herire, Herira) first known physicians of Ancient Egypt (and thus the world). He bore the title "Chief of Dentists and Physicians" among others. Here's from the 3rd Dynasty.
Here's 3 version of Hery-Ra:
Close up of third version of Hesire:
The first on the left, seems to sport a short wig, the second image of him a long wig and the last image on the right, no wig at all.
Like all African people around the world nowadays, Ancient Kemites used many types of style for their hair from bald to extension, natural, wig, braided, mix of those, etc. One of the reason Egyptians used so much wig and hair extensions was to prevent infections with lice which was widespread in that period. Also to protect against the sun and for ceremonial/traditional reasons.
Nice thread.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Ah when will the madness and stupidity ever end??!
Ignoring the white-wacko nubian-wannabe...
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Even if this is a wig, why would the Egyptians wear an afro wig? My first thought is that therefore Hesire who lived in the Third Dynasty might be negro
LMAO Perhaps it never occurred to you that the Egyptians wore afro wigs because such wigs represented their own natural hair-- Afros--since the Egyptians were Africans! And enough of the "negro" crap!
quote:
^^^^ However he doesn't look very Negro here. The lips are small. the mouth opening is not wide, he has no prognathis his nose has a slight outer curve, his forehead doesn't receed much. Either he was not African, part African or an African of a type very unlike most Africans, particulary West Africans. Without question his features are more European/Middel Eastern looking than the vast majority of Africans. That doesn't mean he is European/Middle Eastern but it makes you wonder.
The only thing we wonder is how DUMB you really are or how stupid you expect us to be?! We debated the whole issue of Hesi-Ra before as well as the whole bankrupt term of "true negro"! There are West Africans who look like him as well as Africans farther south of the Great Lakes. How long are you going to repeat this b.s. lyinass b|tch?? Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Lyinass seems to be 'confused' as to why an ancient Egyptian man would wear an afro wig. Of course white hairy nubian-wannabe is totally ignoring this fact.
Meanwhile it is clear as day to everyone else with intelligence let alone common sense, why Egyptians would wear such wigs.
Below is some video footage taken in the Cairo Museum showing a collection of afro wigs worn by the ancient Egyptian Amun priesthood:
As somebody noted, the afro wigs having braids in the bottom are strikingly similar to the hairstyle worn by Beja and other east African nomads.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Let's do some more comparisons of ancient Egyptian wigs with modern African hairstyles shall we?
Ahmose I
Afar man
Seti I
Afar man Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
A white woman posing as an ancient Egyptian lady complete with thick wooly haired wig! LOL
Reality.
Posted by Vansertimavindicated (Member # 20281) on :
As most of you have already figured out, this entire board consists of ONE sick degenerate that has created ficticious names to talk to itself in. Just a few of these names are CLYDE WINTERS, MIKE111 and THE LIONESS. however ALL of the posters on this site EXCEPT for MYSELF are this one sick degenerate! There is NOONE on this site that can be trusted but me. The only links on this site that can be trusted are the ones that I provide for you! Here is a link that you can use as a resource and can be trusted! http://www.raceandhistory.com/
When you have finished reading this post check out this site to learn the truth about history and ALL civilzations. Do NOT be fooled by the real history link that the filthy monkey created using the race and history link as a guide. This is the ONLY site that can be trusted http://www.raceandhistory.com/
Isnt it funny how this one little link destroys all of the charts, graphs and pics that the filthy monkey lies to us with? You now understand why the filthy monkey continues to spam the board with photos of modern day populations that had absolutely NOTHING to do with ancient Egypt
The next time one of these degenerates tries to tell you a lie just refer the moonkey to the latest DNA analysis on the ancient Egyptians, and then tell the faggot to crawl back in its cave!
The pig just keeps showing us why these crackers should not exist! They have genetically recessive genes and ion 50 years they will be the minority in BRITAIN!! THAT ALONE SHOULD TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY DIE OUT LIKE THE UNATURAL ABOMINATIONS THAT THEY ARE!
Look at the low IQ monkey with its charts and pictures LOL tHE dna analysis does not matter to this monkey, because it lives in a world of fantasy! lol
Folks, the monkey performs at my commend. I am this monkeys master!But then again all one needs to do is take a cursury look at this monkeys youtube page to understand the tenuous grip on reality that this monkey has! LOL http://www.youtube.com/user/phoenician7
When the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians what does a low IQ monkey do???
The low IQ monkey shows pictures and charts and munbles on and on about haplogroups while completely ignoring what the DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians actually says LOL
the DNA analysis irrefutably shows that the modern day populations of South Africa, West Africa anmd central Africa are the ancestors of the ancient Egyptians. Thats what the DNA says, thats what the science says. This monkey in all of its fake names is very pathetic isnt it?
You know you have attracted quite a few that are watching this train wreck and wondering what the end game is here. I have tried to convince more than a few that you have no end game however. That you are simply one of lifes losers that can only feel empowered by causing conflict.
People can see that you must comprehend that DNA analysis of the ancient Egyptians shows them to be bantu people, and it is many of your own kind that you are embarrassing quite frankly. The neanderthal genome project has murdered you and although you are a low IQ incompetant stringy hairted monkey, it is something that even YOU must understand!
So tell the folks what your purposee is monkey! There are many that would like to know, because as of now you are just viewed as a clown
Posted by NabtaPlayaPlaya (Member # 20525) on :
testing...(first...post...ever) see picture?
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by NabtaPlayaPlaya: testing...(first...post...ever) see picture?
Not yet.
Posted by NabtaPlayaPlaya (Member # 20525) on :
"United States OR America"...gotta change that. I'm hypothesizing that from the complexity of posting pics, use of a phone will only accumulate frustration lol. Here goes nothin'...
The diversity of "sub-saharan" Africans is not just in DNA trees, but also in their facial and hair characteristics, as presented by Djehuti's Afar/Egyptian presentation. Ramses II (the blonde guy) died in old age and simply attained gray hair by then, also the reason for the lack of oral prognathism/big ole lips by way of teeth deterioration, although he was depicted in earlier life as black-haired and thick-lipped...I'm pic-post-challenged at the moment, so look up his tomb art and Abu Simbel sculptures.
And Vansertimavindicated, why so angry?...Yes, people do ignore, and sometimes distort, Africa's history, but top scholars have concluded the "Nilo-Saharan" origins of the Badarian/Neqada/A-Group cultural complex and with it, IMMENSE contributions by interior African ethnics. By the way, were all "monkeys" with regional alteration. Posted by NabtaPlayaPlaya (Member # 20525) on :
Djehuti: "A white woman posing as an ancient Egyptian lady complete with thick wooly haired wig! LOL"
White women giving themselves curls, braids, or the, obviously theatrical wooly wig, is no more stranger than Black women acknowledging (generally) caucasioid hair by way of weaves, extensions, chemicals, and wigs (Jerry Springer fights anyone?). We're in America, a melting pot of people and styles. That being said, I'll be DAMNED if that wig don't look just plain sad...I mean, how difficult is it to find an African American to play an African?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The only thing we wonder is how DUMB you really are or how stupid you expect us to be?! We debated the whole issue of Hesi-Ra before as well as the whole bankrupt term of "true negro"! There are West Africans who look like him as well as Africans farther south of the Great Lakes. How long are you going to repeat this b.s. lyinass b|tch?? [/QB]
Straw man. I never used the term "true Negro", you added "true"
I used the word negro the equivalent word is used by the average ameican is "black". When an average American uses this term them mean a person of African descent, not an Indian person, not dark skinned Malaysian, not a dark skinned South American.
if you prefer "an African"
So are there any features that are not African? How could you tell if you are likely looking at an African? Other people in the world also have dark skin so how can you tell you are looking at an African ? How can you tell you are looking at a non-African?
^^^^ Djehuti, look at this. Does it look like an African?
NOW EXPLAIN WHY YOU SAID IT DOES OR IT DOESN'T, winks won't suffice
otherwise don't try to **** with me
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ It's not difficult at all finding a black actress to play the part, the problem is many whites either out of ignorance and/or stubbornness refuse to allow black people to portray Egyptians who they view as some alleged Caucasian ancestors! LOL]
Hence, a google search on ancient Egyptian beauty will yield overwhelmingly pictures of white women.
By the way, ignore VanSertimaConfirmed for he is nothing more than a brainless troll that incessantly spams the forum with the same sh*t.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Is it me, or does the profile of the great sphinx reveal prognathism?
^^^Djehuti I just read this, what a complete hypocrite you are
lioness productions
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Here 3 different representation of the same person: Hery-Ra (Herire, Herira) first known physicians of Ancient Egypt (and thus the world). He bore the title "Chief of Dentists and Physicians" among others. Here's from the 3rd Dynasty.
PREVIOUS BACKGROUND INFO ROUNDUP FOR NEW READERS[/B/ -------------------------------------------------- ------
Ancient Egyptian hair
[b]Across the web assorted "biodiversity" proponents, wage a 'racial war' using hair studies of ancient Egyptians to prove a "Caucasian Egypt". But in fact the hair of Africans is highly variable, debunking their simplistic claims.
The hair of Africans is highly variable, ranging from tight curls of South African Bantu, to the loose curls and straight hair of peoples of East and NE Africa, all indigenously evolved over millennia as part of Africa’s high genetic diversity. This diversity undermines and ultimately dismisses simplistic "racial" claims based on hair.
Inconsistencies of the skewed "true negro" model and definitions of African hair
Dubious assertions, double standards and outmoded racial hair claims: Czech anthropologist Strouhal's 1971 study touched on hair, and advanced the most extreme racial definitions, claiming Nubians to be white Europids overrun by later waves of Negroes, and that few Negroes appeared in Egypt until the New Kingdom. Indeed, Strouhal went so far as to argue that 'Negroes' failed to survive long in Egypt, because they were ill-adapted to its arid climate! Tell that to the Saharans, Sudanese and Nubians! Such dubious claims have been thoroughly debunked by modern scholarship, however they continue in various guises by those who attempt to use "hair" to assign race 'percents' and categories to the ancients. Attempts to define racial categories based on the ancient hair rely heavily on extreme definitions, with "Negroids" typically being defined as narrowly as possible. Everything not meeting the extreme "type" is then classified as something else, such as "Caucasian".
Kieta (1990, Studies of Crania from Northern Africa) notes that while many scholars in the field have used an extreme "true negro" definition for African peoples, few have attempted to apply the same model in reverse and define a "true white." Such racial double standards are typical of much scholarship on the ancient Nile Valley peoples. A consistent approach for example would define the straight hair in Strouhal's hair sample as an exclusive Caucasian marker (10 out of 49 or approximately 20%) and make the rest (wavy and curled) hybrid or negro, at >80%. Assorted writers who support the Aryan race percent model however, are careful to avoid such consistency and typically only run the comparison one way.
QUOTE: "Strouhal (1971) microscopically examined some hair which had been preserved on a Badarian skull. The analysis was interpreted as suggesting a stereotypical tropical African-European hybrid (mulatto). However this hair is grossly no different from that of Fulani, some Kanuri, or Somali and does not require a gene flow explanation any more than curly hair in Greece necessarily does. Extremely "wooly" hair is not the only kind native to tropical Africa.." (S. O. Y. Keita. (1993). "Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships," History in Africa 20 (1993) 129-54)
Disturbing attempts to use hair to prove race theories: Fletcher (2002) in Egyptian Hair and Wigs, gives an example of what she calls "disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender" involving 1800s European researcher F. Petrie, who sometimes sought to use excavation reports to prove his theories of Aegean settlers flowing into Egypt. Such disturbing attempts continue today in the use of hair for race category or percentage claims involving the ancient peoples, such as the "racial" analysis seen on several Internet blogs and websites, some thinly disguised fronts for neo-nazi groups or sympathizers.
Hair studies touted by "heriditarian" race proponents actually applied a stereotyped "true negro" model and used late period samples of Egypt, after the coming of Greeks, Hyskos, etc as "representative" excluding the previous 2500 years of ancient civilization. A study of the hair of Egyptian mummies by Czech anthropologists Titlbachova and Titllbach (1977) (reported in Strouhal 1977) using only late period samples found a wide range of hair in mummies. Of the 14 samples, only 4 were from the south of Egypt, and none of the 14 samples were earlier than the 18th Dynasty. Essentially the previous 2,000 years + of Egyptain civilization and peopling are not represented. Only the narrowest definition is used to identify 'true negro' types'. All other intermediate types were deemed 'non-negroid.' If a similar procedure is used in reverse and designates only straight hair as a marker of a European, then only 4 out of 14 or 29% of the samples can be deemed "Caucasoid." Below is a breakdown of the Czech data:
Sample# 5- 18th-21st dynasties- Deir el medina- curly Sample# 8- 21st-25th dynasties- hair looks straight Sample# 11- Late to Greek Period- hair partly wavy Sample# 18- Late period Egypt- hair fine diameter Sample# 19- Greek period- wavy hair Sample# 29- 18-21st Dynasties- Deir El Medina- hair shape unascertainable - south Sample# 31- 18-21st dynasties- Deir El Median- wavy to curly - south Sample# 33- 21st-25th dynasties- appears straight Sample# 34- 21st-25th dynasties- shape difficult to determine Sample# 35- 21st-25th dynasties- wavy shape Sample# 40- 21-25th Dynasties- hair curly, Sample# 44- 21-25th Dynasties- appears straight Sample# 45- 21-25th Dynasties- appears wavy Sample# 46- Kharga Oasis- 4th-5th centuries AD
Using modern technology, the same Aryan Race models are undercut with the data actually showing that Egyptians group closer to Africans than vaunted white Nordics.
------------ "Nordic hair measurements"
Neo-Nazis and sympathizers tout the work of German researcher Pruner-Bey in the 1800s (yes they actually go back this far), which derived racial indexes of hair including Negroes, Egyptians and Germans. Germanic hair is closer to that of the Egyptians they assert. But is it as they claim?
(Data of Bruner-Bey 1864- 'On human hair as a race character') - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 69.94 - White Germans: 66.33 Neo-Nazi conclusion: White German Nordics are 'closer' to Egyptians
Modern data using electron microscopes- Conti-Fuhrman & Massa (1972). Massa and Masali (1980)
Compare to Pruner Bey's 1864 data: - Negroid index: 57.40 - Egyptian index: 60.02 (modern electron microscope data)
White Germans: 66.33 ___________________________________________________ ___________________________ Conclusion using modern microscope data: Negroes much ‘closer’ to Egyptians than Nordics ___________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
Using hair for race identification as older research does can be shaky, but even when used, it undercuts ‘Aryan” clams as shown above.
Fletcher 2002 decries “"disturbing attempts to use hair to prove assumptions of race and gender..” Other credible scientists note:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
Environmental factors can influence hair color, and the Egyptians routinely placed hair from different sources in mummy wrappings, making claims of "Nordic-haired" or "white" Egyptians dubious.
Mummification practices and dyeing of hair. Hair studies of mummies note that color is often influenced by environmental factors at burial sites. Brothwell and Spearman (1963) point out that reddish-brown ancient color hair is usually the result of partial oxidation of the melanin pigment. Other causes of hair color "blonding" involve bleaching, caused by the alkaline in the mummification process. Color also varies due to the Egyptian practice of dyeing hair with henna. Other samples show individuals lightening the hair using vegetable colorants. Thus variations in hair color among mummies do not necessarily suggest the presence of blond or red-haired Europeans or Near Easterners flitting about Egypt before being mummified, but the influence of environmental factors.
Egyptian practice of putting locks of hair in mummy wrappings. Racial analysis is also made problematic by the Egyptian practice of burying hair, in many "votive or funerary deposits buried separately from the body, a practice found from Predynastic to Roman times despite its frequent omission from excavation reports." (Fletcher 2002) In examining hair samples Fletcher (2004) notes that care is needed to determine what is natural scalp hair, versus hair from a wig, versus hair extensions to natural locks. Tracking the exact source of hair is also critical since the Egyptians were known to have placed locks of hair from different sources among mummy wrappings. (The Search for Nefertiti, By Joann Fletcher, HarperCollins, 2004, p. 93-94, 96)
Egyptians shaved much of their natural hair off and used wigs extensively as covering, obtaining much of the hair for wigs through trade. Discoveries" of "Aryan" or 'Nordic" hair are thus hardly 'proof' of incoming Caucasoids, but may be simply hair purchased from some source and made into a wig. This is much less dramatic than the exciting picture of inflowing 'Aryan' hordes.
The ancient Egyptians shaved off much of their own natural hair as a matter of personal hygiene and custom, and wore wigs in public. According to the Encyclopedia of body adornment (Margo DeMello, 2007, Greenwood Publishing Group, p. 101), "Boys and girls until puberty wore their hair shaved except for a side locl left on the side of their head. Many adults- both men and women- also shaved their hair as a way of coping with heat and lice. However, adults did not go about bald, and instead wore wigs in public and in private.. Wigs were initially worn by the elites, but later worn by women of all classes.."
The widespread use of wigs in ancient Egypt thus complicates and contradicts attempts at 'racial' analysis. Fletcher (2002) shows that many Egyptian wigs have been found with what is defined as straighter 'cynotrichous' hair. This however is hardly a marker of massive European or Near Eastern presence or admixture. Fletcher notes that the Egyptians often eschewed their own personal hair, shaving carefully and using wigs widely. The hair for these wigs was often obtained through trade. Indeed -quote - "hair itself being a valuable commodity ranked alongside gold and incense in account lists from the town of Kahun."
Egyptian trading links with other regions is well known, and a commodity like straighter 'cynotrichous' hair could have been easily obtained via the Sahara, Levant, the Maghreb, Mediterranean contacts, or even the hair of Asiatic war captives or casualties from Egypt's numerous conflicts. There is little need to postulate mass influxes of European admixtures or populations to account for hair types in wigs. The limb proportion studies of the ancient Egyptians showing them to be much more related to tropical types than to Europids, is further demonstration of the fallacy of using hair as 'proof' of a 'Aryan' or predominantly European admixed Egypt.
Nubian wigs and wigs in Egypt
Such exchanges or use of hair appear elsewhere in the Nile valley. Tomb finds show Nubians themselves wearing wigs of straight hair. But one Nubian from the Royal valley, of the 12th century, named Maherpra, was found to be wearing a wig himself, made up of tightly curled 'negroid' hair, on top of his natural covering (Fletcher 2002). The so-called "Nubian wig" also appears in Egyptian art relief's depicting daily life, a stylistic arrangement thought to imitate those found in southern Egypt or Nubia. Such wigs appear to have been popular with both Egyptians and Nubians. Fletcher 2004 notes that the famous queen Nefertiti made frequent use of the Nubian wig: "Nefertiti and her daughter seem to have set a trend for wearing the Nubian wig.. a coiffure first worn by Nubian mercenaries and clearly associated with the military." A detail of a wall scene in Theban tomb TT.55 shows the queen wearing the Nubian wig. Infantrymen from the Nubia. Note both bow and battle-axe carried into combat.
Hair studies of Nubians show built-in African genetic variability
Hair studies of Nubians have also been undertaken. One study at Semna, in Nubia (Daniel Hrdy 1978- Analysis of Hair Samples of Mummies from Semna South, American Journal of Physical Anthropology, (1978) 49: 277-262), found curling patterns intermediate between Northwest European and African samples. The X-group, especially males, showed more African elements than the Meroitic in the curling variables. Crimping and curvature data patterned in a northwest Europe direction. These data plots however do not necessarily indicate race admixture or percentages, or the presence of European migrants or colonists (see Keita 2005 below), but rather a data pattern of variation in how hair curls, and native African diversity which cases substantial overlap with non-African groups. This is a routine occurrence within human groups.
Africa has the highest phenotypic variation, just as it has the highest geentic variation- accommodating a wide range of features for its peoples without the need for any "race mix: Relethford (2001) shows that ".. methods for estimating regional diversity show sub-Saharan Africa to have the highest levels of phenotypic variation, consistent with many genetic studies." (Relethford, John "Global Analysis of Regional Differences in Craniometric Diversity and Population Substructure". Human Biology - Volume 73, Number 5, October 2001, pp. 629-636) Hanihara 2003 notes that [significant] "..intraregional diversity are present in Subsaharan Africans.." While ancient Egypt had gene flow in various eras, hair variations easily fall under this pattern of built-in, indigenous diversity, as well as the above noted cultural practice of using wigs with hair from different places obtained through trade.
Among Europeans for example, some people have curlier hair and some have straighter hair than others. Various peoples of East and West Africa also have narrow noses, which are different from other peoples elsewhere in Africa, nevertheless they still remain Africans. DNA studies also note greater variation within selected populations that without. Since Africa has the highest genetic diversity in the world, such routine variation in characteristics such as hair need not indicate any racial percentage or admixture, but simply part of the built-in genetic diversity of the ancient peoples on the continent. Indeed, the Semna study author notes that blondism, especially in young children, is common in many dark-haired populations (e.g., Australian, Melanesian), and is still found in some Nubian villages. As regards hair color variation, reddish type hair is associated with the presence of pheomelanin, which can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well. See "Rameses" below. Albinism is another source of red hair.
Dubious attempts at 'racial analysis' using Nubian hair and crania. Assorted supporters of the stereotypical Aryan 'race' model attempt to use hair to argue for a predominantly 'white' Nubia. But as noted above, such attempts are dubious given built-in African genetic diversity. Often 'racial' hair claims attempt to link on with cranial studies purporting to match ancient Nubians with Swedes, Frenchmen, etc. But such claims are also dubious. In a detailed analysis of the Fordisc computer program used to put forward such claims, Williams, Armelagos, et al. (2005) found that the program created ludicrous "matches" between the ancient Nubian crania and peoples from Hungary, Japan, Easter Island and a host of others in far-flung regions! Their conclusion was that the diversity of human populations in the databank explained such wide ranging matches. Such objective mainstream analyses debunk obsolete and improbable claims of 'racial' migrations of alleged Frenchman, Hungarians, or other whites into ancient Nubia, or equally improbable racial 'percentages' supposedly quantifying such claims. (Frank l'engle Williams, Robert L. Belcher, and George J . Armelagos, "Forensic Misclassification of Ancient Nubian Crania: Implications for Assumptions about Human Variation," Current Anthropology, volume 46 (2005), pages 340-346)
Alleged massive influx of Europeans and Middle Easterners to give the ancient peoples hair variation did not happen. Such variation was already in place as part of Africa' built in genetic and phenotypic diversity. As regards diameter, the average diameter of the Semna sample was close to both the Northwest European and East African samples. This again suggests a range of built-in African indigenous variability, and calls into questions various migration theories to the Nile Valley. One study for example (Keita 2005) tested the model of C. Loring Brace (1993) as to the notion of incoming European migrants replacing indigenous peoples of the Nile Valley. Brace's work had also suggested a relationship between northwest Europeans such as Scandanavians and African peoples of the Horn. Data analysis failed to support this model, instead clustering samples much closer to African series than to Europeans. Keita concluded that similarities between African data in his survey (skulls, etc) and non-Africans was not due to gene flow, but a subset of built-in African variability.
Ancient Egyptians cluster much closer to other Egyptians and Nubians. A later study by Brace, (Brace 2005- The questionable contribution..) groups ancient Egyptian populations like the Naqada closer to Nubians and Somalis than European, Mediterranean or Middle Eastern populations, and places various Nubians samples closer to Tanzanian, Dahomeian, and Congoid data points than to Europeans and Middle easterners. The limb proportion studies of Zakrzewski (2003) (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.) showing the tropical body plan of the ancient Egyptians also undercuts theories of inflowing European or near Eastern colonists, or the 'native Europid' model of Strouhal (1971).
The yellowish-red-hair of Rameses: proof of a Nordic Egypt?
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Detailed microscopic analysis during the 1980s (Balout 1985) identified some of the hair of Egyptian Pharoah Rameses II as being a yellowish-red. Such a finding should not be surprising given the wide range of physical variability in Africa, the most genetically diverse region on earth, out of which flowed other population groups. Indeed, blondism and various other hair shades are not unknown in East Africa or Nubia, particularly in children, nor are such hair color variants uncommon in dark-haired or dark skinned populations like the Australians. (Hrdy 1978) Given the range of genetic variability in Africa, a red-haired Rameses is hardly unusual. Rameses' reign, in the 19th Dynasty, came over 1,500 years after the Egyptian state had been established, and after the Hyskos interlude. Such latecomers to Egypt, like the Hyskos, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc would add their own genetic strands to the nation’s mix. Whatever the blend of genes that occurred with Rameses, his hair offers little supposed "proof" of a "white" or "Nordic" Egypt. If anything, X-rays of the royal mummies from earlier Dynasties by mainstream scientists show that the Egyptians pharaohs and other royals had varied 'Negroid' leanings. See X-Rays of the Royal mummies here, or here.
Pheomelanin and Rameses- Dark haired populations routinely produce light hair. Pheomelanin is found in light and dark-haired populations: The finding of Rameses “red” hair also deserves further scrutiny. The analysis found evidence of dyeing to make the hair yellowish-red, but some elements were untouched by the dye. These elements of yellowish-red hair in Balout’s study, were established on the basis of the presence of pheomelanin, a red-brown polymeric pigment in the skin and hair of humans. However, pheomelanin can also be found in persons with dark brown or even black hair as well, which gives it a reddish hue. Most natural melanins contain sulfur, which is typically associated with pheomelanin. In scientific tests of melanin, black hair contained as much as 5% sulfur, 3% lower than the 8.8% found in Irish red hair, but exceeding the 2.3% found in Scandinavian blond hair. (Jolles, et al. 1996) Thus the yellowish-red hair discovered on Rameses is well within the range of human variation for dark haired people, whatever the exact gene combination that led to the condition.
Rameses hair was not a typical European red, but yellowish-red, within African variation. It was also not ultra straight, further undermining claims of "Nordic" influence. Somalians and Ethiopians are SUB-SAHARANS and they routinely produce straight-haired people without the need for any "race mix" to explain why. The analysis on Rameses also did not show classic "European" red hair but hair of a light red to yellowish tinge. Black haired or dark-skinned populations are quite capable of producing such yellowish-red color variants on their own, as can be seen in today's east and northeast Africa (see child's photo above). Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
The analysis also found the hair to be cymotrich or wavy, again a characteristic quite within the range of overall African or Nile valley physical and genetic diversity. A "pure" Nordic type of straight hair was thus not established for Rameses. Hence the notion of white Europeans or red-headed Caucasoids from other areas flowing into ancient Egypt to add hair variation, particularly the early centuries of the dynastic state is unlikely. Such flows may have occurred most heavily in the Greek and Roman era but say nothing about the thousands of years preceding. The presence of pheomelanin conditions or other genetic combinations also explains how the different hair used in Egyptian wigs could vary in color, aside from environmental oxidation, bleaching and dyeing.
Red hair is rare worldwide, and history shows little evidence of Northern Europeans or "Nordics" sweeping into Egypt to give the natives a bit of hair coloring or variation. Most red hair is found in northern and western Europe, especially in the British Isles, and even then it appears in minor frequencies in Europe- some 4% of the population. It is unlikely such populations had any major contact or influence in the ancient Nile Valley. As noted above, red hair is comparatively rare in the world’s populations and pheomelanin conditions are found in dark-haired populations, and thus is well within the range of variation from the Sahara, East Africa and the Nile valley. “White Aryan” theories of Egypt are seen in the works of HFK Gunther (1927), Archibald Sayce (1925) and Raymond Dart (1939), and still find traction on a number of 'Aryan', neo-nazi and "race" websites and blogs which purport to show a "white Nordic Egypt" using Rameses' "red" hair as an example. Today's scientific research however, has debunked these dubious views, showing that red hair, while not common world wide, is a well known variant within human populations, even those with dark hair.
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations. As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
As one mainstream researcher notes about the dubious value of "racial" hair analysis:
"The reader must assume, as apparently do the authors, that the "coarseness" or "fineness" of hair can readily distinguish races and that hair is dichotomized into these categories. Problematically, however, virtually all who have studied hair morphology in relation to race since the 1920’s to the present have rejected such a characterization .. Hausman, as early as 1925, stated that it is "not possible to identify individuals from samples of their hair, basing identification upon histological similarities in the structure of scales and medullas, since these may differ in hairs from the same head or in different parts of the same hair". Rook (1975) pointed out nearly 50 years later out that "Negroid and Caucasoid hair" are "chemically indistinguishable". --Tom Mieczkowsk, T. (2000). The Further Mismeasure: The Curious Use of Racial Categorizations in the Interpretation of Hair Analyses. Intl J Drug Testing 2000;vol 2
In numerous studies of mummies, alleged "red" hair turns out to be affected by aging, chemical oxidation, dyeing and other processes having nothing to do with red-headed visitors, migrants, slaves or invaders. Red hair is rare worldwide, occurring mostly in Northern EUrope and even then, only within less that 9% of northern populations
"The current colour of the hair is brown with reddish highlights, a common observation on many mummies, and probably originated through post-mortem alteration (Aufderheide, 2003; Wilson et al., 2001). Sun-exposure, bacterial reaction, and embalming methods are some of the factors that may affect the original hair colour. As a result, hair that was originally black or brown exhibits reddish, orange or even blond colour due to post mortem alterations. All human hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological time-scales (Wilson, 2001). Based on the histological analysis of the unstained hair samples, the limited fungal influence, and the macroscopic view, it can be assumed that the original hair colour was brown. Similar cases of hair preservation have been reported in studies of both mummified and non-mummified human remains (Aufderheide, 2003; Brothwell and Dobney, 1986; Lubec et al., 1987; White, 1993; Wilson et al., 2002, 2007b)."
--C. Papageorgopoulou et al. 2008. Indications of embalming in Roman Greece by physical, chemical and histological analysis. Journal of Archaeological Science
Posted by NabtaPlayaPlaya (Member # 20525) on :
@ zarahan-aka Enrique Cardova
Yup.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The only thing we wonder is how DUMB you really are or how stupid you expect us to be?! We debated the whole issue of Hesi-Ra before as well as the whole bankrupt term of "true negro"! There are West Africans who look like him as well as Africans farther south of the Great Lakes. How long are you going to repeat this b.s. lyinass b|tch??
Straw man. I never used the term "true Negro", you added "true"
Sorry, but I inferred that from your post when you ridiculously pointed out Hesi-Ra's facial features as if they were some how unusual for "negroes".
quote:I used the word negro the equivalent word is used by the average ameican is "black". When an average American uses this term them mean a person of African descent, not an Indian person, not dark skinned Malaysian, not a dark skinned South American.
if you prefer "an African"
Yet no American or any Westerner for that matter uses the word 'negro' anymore not only because of the derrogative connatation but also because of the erroneous baggage that word carries. Of course a black person would know that but since you are not black...
quote:So are there any features that are not African?
Of course there are. Africans despite their enormous diversity don't have a claim to ALL features, especially ones that are cold adapted.
quote:How could you tell if you are likely looking at an African?
The same way anyone else can tell, by looking at the overall physical appearance as well as cultural attributes.
quote:Other people in the world also have dark skin so how can you tell you are looking at an African? How can you tell you are looking at a non-African?
I just answered above.
quote:
^^^^ Djehuti, look at this. Does it look like an African?
No. Because anyone with brains knows that is a European, specifically a Roman.
quote:NOW EXPLAIN WHY YOU SAID IT DOES OR IT DOESN'T, winks won't suffice
I don't need to give elementary explanations for the dumb.
quote:otherwise don't try to **** with me
.
LOL Sorry but I don't f*ck idiots. I only MOCK them!
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
Is it me, or does the profile of the great sphinx reveal prognathism?
^^^Djehuti I just read this, what a complete hypocrite you are
lyinass productions
And exactly what is so hypocritical about this?! Are you saying full prognathism is a trait of your 'Caucasoid' kind?? LOL Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Some photo of modern Ethiopians (cushitic speakers):
Afar(cushitic) warrior Danakil Ethiopia
Afar(cushitic) warrior Danakil Ethiopia
Men during Gada Ceremony in Karrayyu (Cushitic) Tribe
Afar (Cushitic) Boys
Afar warrior with butter hair style after dance by night Danakil Ethiopia
Afar man with butter on his hair Danakil Ethiopia
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Afar from Djibouti
Afar girl Danakil desert Ethiopia
Afar girl with lollipop in Asaita Danakil Ethiopia
Afar warrior dancing Danakil Ethiopia
Veiled Afar woman in Danakil Ethiopia
Afar Headrest
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I notice people in many African cultures use animal fat and butter on their hair like hair gel.
The ancient Egyptians styled their hair using a fat-based 'gel', an analysis of mummies has found. The researchers behind the study say that the Egyptians used the product to ensure that their style stayed in place in both life and death.
Natalie McCreesh, an archaeological scientist from the KNH Centre for Biomedical Egyptology at the University of Manchester, UK, and her colleagues studied hair samples taken from 18 mummies. The oldest is around 3,500 years old, but most were excavated from a cemetery in the Dakhleh Oasis in the Western Desert, and date from Greco-Roman times, around 2,300 years ago.
They include males and females ranging in age from 4 to 58 years old. Some were artificially mummified, whereas others were preserved naturally by the dry sand in which they were buried.
Microscopy using light and electrons revealed that nine of the mummies had hair coated in a mysterious fat-like substance. The researchers used gas chromatography–mass spectrometry to separate out the different molecules in the samples, and found that the coating contained biological long-chain fatty acids including palmitic acid and stearic acid. The results are published in the Journal of Archaeological Science1.
McCreesh thinks that the fatty coating is a styling product that was used to set hair in place. It was found on both natural and artificial mummies, so she believes that it was a beauty product during life as well as a key part of the mummification process.
The resins and embalming materials used to prepare the artificially mummified bodies were not found in the hair samples, suggesting that the hair was protected during embalming and then styled separately.
"Maybe they paid special attention to the hair because they realized that it didn't degrade as much as the rest of the body," says McCreesh. The product was found on both male and female mummies, showing that both sexes cared about their eternal hairdo. High-status hairstyles
John Taylor, head of the Egyptian mummy collection at the British Museum in London, describes the idea as feasible. "Hair was a status symbol," he says — elaborate styles signified high standing.
Egyptian texts and art contain no mention of hair products, he says, although ancient Egyptians are known to have used scented oils and lotions on their bodies.
"The best clue comes from Egyptian wigs," says Taylor. "The hair is often coated with beeswax." Such wigs, which have been found in Egyptian tombs, would have been expensive and probably restricted to the nobility, says McCreesh. "The majority of the mummies I've looked at have their own hair," she says.
The Egyptians might have also used beeswax on their own hair. The wax contains fatty acids such as palmitic acid, although McCreesh says that her results so far don't show any evidence of beeswax. "It was a fat, but we can't tell you what type of fat," she says.
She points out that beeswax would be difficult to wash out of hair, compared to, say, animal fat. She now plans to analyse the samples further, to try to pin down the hair-gel recipe.
The mummies' hairstyles varied, both long and short, with curls particularly popular; metal implements resembling curling tongs have been found in several tombs. Once the hair was styled, the fatty gunge would have held the individuals' curls in place.
"You can almost imagine them when they were alive," says McCreesh, "tending their hair and putting their curls in." Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
...
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I notice people in many African cultures use animal fat and butter on their hair like hair gel.
Which African cultures, beside Kemites and Afar/Ethiopians, use animal fat/butter on their hair like gel?
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Dark skin is one trait amoung many. It is more superficial and less structural than some phenotypic traits. To group people biologically by dark skin is old school racial taxonomy. Anthropologists no longer divide people of the world by skin color, people are now categorized by geographic origin and genetic affinity. Austrailoids are at a further genetic distance from Africans than they are from Europeans. They also have brow ridges closer to Europeans than to Africans. In other words Austrailan aboriginees are no more a part of African diversity than are Europeans or Amerindians. Blond hair is not uncommon in Austrailan aboriginees. However it is extremely uncommon in Africans who are not albino Africans Straight Blond or Straight Red hair does not exist at all in Africans. And in regard to straight hair in Africans in general, the is no peer reviewed study whose topic is that straight hair in humans evolved in Africa.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
How could there be an "original" "Australoid" type that migrated from Africa? They would not be "Australoid" until they reached Australia or nearby. [/QB]
Yes, as per Austrailians, they left Africa over 50 kya and have had ample time to develop their hair type outside of Africa.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Nor is such color variation unusual to Africa. Native dark-skinned populations in Australia, routinely produce people with blond or reddish hair. As noted above, ultra diverse Africa is the original source of such variation.
Adult Aboriginal children may have light blond hair but it darkens and becomes dirty blond hair bt the time they become adults such as with the man above. Austrailian Aborignees are no more biologically related to Africans than are the French.
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Straight or curly hair is also routine among sub-Saharans like Somalians, who are firmly part of the East African populations.
As regards Somalians for example, Somali DNA overwhelmingly links much more heavily with other Africans including Kenyans & Ethiopians (85%), than with Europeans & Middle Easterners. (15%) On Y-chromosome markers (E3b1), Somalis (77%) and other African populations dwarf small European (5.1%) or Middle Eastern (6.3%) frequencies. “The data suggest that the male Somali population is a branch of the East African population..” (Sanchez et al., High frequencies of Y chromosome lineages.. in Somali males (2005)
DNATribes African Population SNP admixture (not STR)
^^^^ SOMALIA
Sub Saharan Africans 45.2%
Middle Eastern 50.5%
case closed
lioness productions
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Here's the real SNP admixture table for Somalian and Ethiopian populations, not the STR table which included a lot of foreigners and admixed people. They didn't bother to find just one "pure" Horn African population in their STR samples contrary to their SNP samples (or lets say, their native Americans STR samples). Which doesn't make sense if you look at photos of those people, among other things or study their history. As people know by reading this forum their Horn African population don't match Ancient Egyptians mummies very well most probably because of that.
In their sampled population, Somalians are 92.1 Horn Africans.
Also those are modern populations not Ancient Egyptians or Ancient populations.
Samples are often taken from urban clinics which tend to be more cosmopolitan thus admixed with foreigners in the relatively near past. A normal phenomena for all the world's populations.
The modern Afar/Karrayyu people posted in this thread are cushitic speakers like the Oromo in the table (wiki call them "Lowland East Cushitic" speakers).
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate: Stop trying to dupe people with your lies.
zarahan had made a general statement about Somalians which I replied to. The topic is hair styles of the ancient Egyptians. He feels Somalians explains something about that, had a long post.
What is a lie about posting DNATribes African Population SNP admixture chart (orange)?
You simply don't undertsand the difference between that chart and the blue local region chart you posted from the same PDF(!).
The blue chart excludes the Middle East because it is showing admixture of varous different African populations is a -within Africa only chart.
Of admixture regions within Africa Somalians are 92.1 Horn Africans. In general as per in relation to the whole world they are Sub Saharan Africans 45.2% and 50.5% non_African from out of their local continental region, Middle Eastern according to DNATribes (remember th same guys who you liked for their report on the Amarna. Of the 45.2% African they are, the specific type of African that comprises that 45.2% is mainly Horn African.
Ethiopian and Somali—populations are located centrally between sub-Saharan African and non-African populations.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
It's true the orange table is not a STR table, I was wrong about that (I didn't re-read the doc before posting it), but the blue table is "the most detailed and representative comparison of your DNA to world population structure" according to the document and is NOT a within Africa comparison like you pretend here. Anybody can see that. Still we got 2 tables that doesn't say the same thing (because mathematically/technically the regions groupings were derived differently). I don't know or care about which table is more right or wrong. According to DNA Tribes the blue table is more accurate, more detailed and more representative.
Looking at the photo of protest crowds, as well as others, it also seems the more detailed blue SNP table is more closer to the truth, but there's no way to know that for sure since they didn't sample the whole population just "a few" chosen people. Which may happens to be people who are more admixed than most of the population, or not.
Still it has no bearing about the identity of Ancient Egyptians. Those are modern population and not the ancient population from 5000 years ago. The DNA analysis of the mummies is clear that they are closer to Southern Africans, Great Lakes Africans, Tropical West Africans and other African groups to a lower degree and in that order. Ancient population not modern, is the main preoccupation of this site.
How many times must we explain to you dumb lyinass that their so-called 'central' location between other Sub-Saharans and non-Africans is because non-Africans are genetically a SUBSET of them [Horn Africans]!!
So enough of your lyinass sh*t productions, and get back to the topic of hairstyle!
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: Red hair itself is within the range of African diversity or that of dark-skinned peoples. Native black Australoids for example routinely produce blonde hair:
Actually it depends on what you mean by 'red' hair. If you mean the "ravishing" red or "ginger" you see among some Europeans, then NO such is not part of the usual African diversity. However, hair that has a reddish tinge does occur occasionally among some Africans. Red color in hair is due to the pigment phaelomelanin. The jet-black color in hair is due to eumelanin which is usually the predominant pigment in hair, but if phaelomelanin is also present a mixing can occur that can produce an off-black coloring that is either brownish black or deep dark brown etc. In rare cases a reddish tinge can even be observed among some individuals. Totally red hair in individuals occurs when phaelomelanin is solely predominant or the only pigment in the hair.
Blonde hair is due to a lack of melanin in general and the phenotype is believed by many experts to originally be a pedomorphic trait since it occurs most often among children in many populations including black-skinned tropically adapted ones. Even among Europeans which blondism is most common, the blonde hair of many individuals darkens with age past childhood. The same is especially true among black aboriginal populations of Australia and the Pacific, where blondism commonly occurs in childhood but then darkens with age. It's only in rare instances that individuals in these groups retain the blondness in adulthood.
Speaking of which, as Ausar has even pointed out many times before, blondism among African children is also not unusual especially among certain groups like Nubians and some other Nilotic folk. You have to be careful Zarahan about what you say in regards to African phenotypic diversity, because a lot of trolls like Anglo-Idiot love to take your claims out of context and distort what you actually mean to make you look like a nut that claims all phenotypes even European ones to be African. I know its idiotic, but some laypeople unfamiliar with such bio-anthropological facts may be gullible enough to fall for it.
quote:Dark skin is one trait among many. It is more superficial and less structural than some phenotypic traits. To group people biologically by dark skin is old school racial taxonomy. Anthropologists no longer divide people of the world by skin color, people are now categorized by geographic origin and genetic affinity. Austrailoids are at a further genetic distance from Africans than they are from Europeans. They also have brow ridges closer to Europeans than to Africans. In other words Austrailan aboriginees are no more a part of African diversity than are Europeans or Amerindians. Blond hair is not uncommon in Austrailan aboriginees. However it is extremely uncommon in Africans who are not albino Africans Straight Blond or Straight Red hair does not exist at all in Africans. And in regard to straight hair in Africans in general, the is no peer reviewed study whose topic is that straight hair in humans evolved in Africa.
LMAO B|tch please! Quit lecturing like you're knowledgeable! You didn't know sh|t about anything in biological anthropology until folks in forum told you all that info! And we told you before, it's unknown how straight hair came about but wavy hair for its part as it exists in tropically adapted (black) populations from Australia to Africa, seem to suggest that its origins may well lie in Africa at least during the time of the first OOA migration.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
It's true the orange table is not a STR table, I was wrong about that (I didn't re-read the doc before posting it), but the blue table is "the most detailed and representative comparison of your DNA to world population structure" according to the document and is NOT a within Africa comparison like you pretend here. Anybody can see that. Still we got 2 tables that doesn't say the same thing (because mathematically/technically the regions groupings were derived differently). I don't know or care about which table is more right or wrong. According to DNA Tribes the blue table is more accurate, more detailed and more representative.
Looking at the photo of protest crowds, as well as others, it also seems the more detailed blue SNP table is more closer to the truth, but there's no way to know that for sure since they didn't sample the whole population just "a few" chosen people. Which may happens to be people who are more admixed than most of the population, or not.
Still it has no bearing about the identity of Ancient Egyptians. Those are modern population and not the ancient population from 5000 years ago. The DNA analysis of the mummies is clear that they are closer to Southern Africans, Great Lakes Africans, Tropical West Africans and other African groups to a lower degree and in that order. Ancient population not modern, is the main preoccupation of this site.
you're right that the blue chart has some out of Africa world populations.
But it's mistaken to say that the blue chart is more accurate or the orange chart is more accurate. They are not necessarily contradicting one another.
The two charts are testing some of the same regions but not all and this can be confusing.
What we notice is in the orange chart they tested for Middle Eastern and came up with 54.5 %
In the blue region chart they only tested for Arabian not the whole of the Middle East and came up with 7.9% Arabian. This means they majority Middle Eastern ancestry on average but it is not mainly Arabian. The Somalis, like the Ethiopian groups, show almost no impact from the Bantu expansion. According to mtDNA studies by Holden (2005) and Richards et al. (2006), a significant proportion of the maternal lineages of Somalis consists of the M1 haplogroup, which is common among Ethiopians and North Africans, particularly Egyptians and Algerians.] M1 is believed to have originated in Asia,[ where its parent M clade represents the majority of mtDNA lineages (particularly in India). This haplogroup is also thought to possibly correlate with the Afro-Asiatic language family: "We analysed mtDNA variation in ~250 persons from Libya, Somalia, and Congo/Zambia, as representatives of the three regions of interest. Our initial results indicate a sharp cline in M1 frequencies that generally does not extend into sub-Saharan Africa. While our North and especially East African samples contained frequencies of M1 over 20%, our sub-Saharan samples consisted almost entirely of the L1 or L2 haplogroups only. In addition, there existed a significant amount of homogeneity within the M1 haplogroup. This sharp cline indicates a history of little admixture between these regions. This could imply a more recent ancestry for M1 in Africa, as older lineages are more diverse and widespread by nature, and may be an indication of a back-migration into Africa from the Middle East."
Mitochondrial lineage M1 traces an early human backflow to Africa
Ana M González,#1 José M Larruga,#1 Khaled K Abu-Amero,2 Yufei Shi,2 José Pestano,3 and Vicente M Cabrera1
Background
The out of Africa hypothesis has gained generalized consensus. However, many specific questions remain unsettled. To know whether the two M and N macrohaplogroups that colonized Eurasia were already present in Africa before the exit is puzzling. It has been proposed that the east African clade M1 supports a single origin of haplogroup M in Africa. To test the validity of that hypothesis, the phylogeographic analysis of 13 complete mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) sequences and 261 partial sequences belonging to haplogroup M1 was carried out.
Results
The coalescence age of the African haplogroup M1 is younger than those for other M Asiatic clades. In contradiction to the hypothesis of an eastern Africa origin for modern human expansions out of Africa, the most ancestral M1 lineages have been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East, instead of in East Africa. The M1 geographic distribution and the relative ages of its different subclades clearly correlate with those of haplogroup U6, for which an Eurasian ancestor has been demonstrated.
Conclusion
This study provides evidence that M1, or its ancestor, had an Asiatic origin. The earliest M1 expansion into Africa occurred in northwestern instead of eastern areas; this early spread reached the Iberian Peninsula even affecting the Basques. The majority of the M1a lineages found outside and inside Africa had a more recent eastern Africa origin. Both western and eastern M1 lineages participated in the Neolithic colonization of the Sahara. The striking parallelism between subclade ages and geographic distribution of M1 and its North African U6 counterpart strongly reinforces this scenario. Finally, a relevant fraction of M1a lineages present today in the European Continent and nearby islands possibly had a Jewish instead of the commonly proposed Arab/Berber maternal ascendance.
_____________________________________________
Only two subclades of haplogroup M, M1 and M23, are found in Africa, whereas numerous subclades are found outside Africa.Haplogroup M1 has a restricted geographic distribution in Africa, being found mainly in North Africans and East Africa at low or moderate frequencies. If M had originated in Africa around before the Out of Africa migration, it would be expected to have a more widespread distribution According to Gonzalez et al. 2007, M1 appears to have expanded relatively recently. In this study M1 had a younger coalescence age than the Asian-exclusive M lineages. The geographic distribution of M1 in Africa is predominantly North African/supra-equatorial and is largely confined to Afro-Asiatic speakers,which is inconsistent with the Sub-Saharan distribution of sub-clades of haplogroups L3 and L2 that have similar time depths. One of the basal lineages of M1 lineages has been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East but is abssent in East Africa. M1 is not restricted to Africa. It is relatively common in the Mediterranean, peaking in Iberia. M1 also enjoys a well-established presence in the Middle East, from the South of the Arabian Peninsula to Anatolia and from the Levant to Iran. In addition, M1 haplotypes have occasionally been observed in the Caucasus and the Trans Caucasus, and without any accompanying L lineages. M1 has also been detected in Central Asia, seemingly reaching as far as Tibet. The fact that the M1 sub-clade of macrohaplogroup M has a coalescence age which overlaps with that of haplogroup U6 (a Eurasian haplogroup whose presence in Africa is due to a back-migration from West Asia) and the distribution of U6 in Africa is also restricted to the same North African and Horn African populations as M1 supports the scenario that M1 and U6 were part of the same population expansion from Asia to Africa.[ The timing of the proposed migration of M1 and U6-carrying peoples from West Asia to Africa (between 40,000 to 45,000 ybp) is also supported by the fact that it coincides with changes in climatic conditions that reduced the desert areas of North Africa, thereby rendering the region more accessible to entry from the Levant. This climatic change also temporally overlaps with the peopling of Europe by populations bearing haplogroup U5, the European sister clade of haplogroup U6.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
you're right that the blue chart has some out of Africa world populations.
But it's mistaken to say that the blue chart is more accurate or the orange chart is more accurate. They are not necessarily contradicting one another.
I'm not the one who said that first. The 21 World Region are said to "provide the most detailed and representative comparison of your DNA to world population structure. The difference lay imo in how those regions were determined.
The orange 7 continents Admixture regions are determined by geography.
The blue 21 regions Admixture regions are derived by DNA Tribes proprietary statistical analysis (of the DNA SNPs value the have in their database).
Maybe the 7 continents admixture regions are also derived with some DNA Tribes proprietary statistical analysis too, but I don't think so.
The 21 regions Admixture regions tend to segregate more between ethnic groups since it's how they were derived (by mathematically subdividing ethnic groups by common SNP value and make a region out of them).
quote: The two charts are testing some of the same regions but not all and this can be confusing.
What we notice is in the orange chart they tested for Middle Eastern and came up with 54.5 %
In the blue region chart they only tested for Arabian not the whole of the Middle East and came up with 7.9% Arabian.
You're mistaken about that, they've tested against all the world population groups (obviously). The only difference is the 21 Region blue table subdivide Middle East into smaller units which at least contain Arabian and North Africa (also boundaries can be changed). I think the preceding Middle East continental zone included some part of the Horn of Africa.
The 21 region blue chart hits Arabian but North Africa value is nil (see "Other" line). It's because the 21 region blue table is more precise and tend to segregate regional ethnic groupings more. The Middle Eastern region in the 7 Continental orange table seems to recoup some region of Horn Africa. At least, that would be a possible explanation for it.
quote: This means they majority Middle Eastern ancestry on average but it is not mainly Arabian.
All the contrary. The Somalian people they sampled seems to be mainly native Somalian ancestry with some Arabian admixture but no North African one (or other middle eastern regions).
Again, it seems they have taken people in their sample which are more admixed as representative of the whole Somalian subgroup.
quote: The Somalis, like the Ethiopian groups, show almost no impact from the Bantu expansion.
It doesn't mean anything. You can always subdivide (or combine) people from the same ethnic family. For example, you can subdivide the common Bantu family into Zulu and Shona. Then say Zulu don't have Shona DNA.
You can subdivide Europeans into Iberian and Northwest Europeans. You can subdivide the African family into Bantu, Horn Africans, Tropical West Africans etc. All those people share common ancestry (aka common SNP values) as well as having some common ancestry of their own (after the separation into sub-groupings and being separated by geographical distance).
Here we can see that all African groups (Central Africans, Horn Africans, Southern Africans, West Africans, African Great Lakes Africans) share common ancestors and are relatively close to each other in term of genetic distance. They all share common SNP values. They are all part of a group called "Sub-Saharan Africans" by DNA Tribes.
As we can see, it's always a "game" of subdividing and regrouping ethnic groups together. All African group share common SNP value distinct from all other people on earth, at the same time some SNP value are more common in certain African sub-regions and can thus be further subdivided into smaller unit like Southern Africans or Tropical West Africans.
Same thing with the Human family in general each meeting point in the above table represent common ancestry (usually). That is common SNP value. Human are one large family with mostly the same SNP values (99%+) but some regions have some SNP value more common in their particular region so we can subdivided them into smaller, and smaller units. Even Tropical West African, I'm sure, could be subdivided into smaller units maybe Yoruba, Igbo, Ewe, etc. with SNP value more common in their region. At the extreme we can isolate you and your family (mother, father, brother, cousins) SNP values from other families.
So it's always a "game" of subdividing and regrouping ethnic groups together. The map above does the 2 things. (Meeting lines -nodes- are common ancestry, branches are subdivisions of those common ancestry).
As a side note, such genetic distance tree are very sensible to extreme values. It's one of the reasons it's really important to NOT choose admixed people in their sample while deriving such tree. To have people who truly form a native ethnic groups. Especially if you're interested in analyzing ancestral/past relationship between people. Because only 1 or 2 individuals very much admixed in modern time (with foreign SNP values) can change the genetic distance in a big way. The degree of admixture (or purity) of the sampled chosen for each population must be kept in mind when analyzing a genetic tree.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
I don't know why you post studies about the M lineages and such? Studies which seems to contradict each others from what I read in your post(especially in their conclusions). I find that interesting but we need at least the percentages distribution (frequency) in the population when talking about haplogroups. It's also important to know which people were used in the sample. To derive ancestral population conclusions from modern DNA samples, which is not evident, it's important to pick people who are not admixed and thus are the "purest" native representative of their people as possible.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Of course. It has been explained to the lyinass countless times that in the case of M1, the highest frequency and diversity lie in Africa NOT in Asia so a Eurasian origin for M1 seems unlikely. This along with the fact that L3 the mother of MN* and M* is African in origin makes the Asian origin of M* itself questionable OR if it truly did originate in Asia its forebearers would still be African diasporans. So what's the point?
Again, this exposes lyinass as a Euronut who has issues with African origins!
This is also the reason why she continuously SHIFTS the subject of this thread which is about ancient Egyptian hair styles!! No doubt because the hair styles are too AFRICAN for her tastes.
I say get this fake ass white girl in virtual black face out of here!! Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
In fact, Somali and Bantu people share a lot of DNA, a lot of SNP values, that's why they are all part of the same group called Sub-saharan Africans in the genetic tree figure I posted above. Obviously, it's only a genetic confirmation of what can be attested visually or even by observing some ancient tradition. Only picking people in their sample that are recently admixed (but self-identify as Somalian anyway) could throw a spanner into such mathematical analysis by introducing extreme values which widen the genetic distance of the whole group.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Headrest can be found all throughout black Africa. From the Northern to Southern Africa. East and West. It was also found in Ancient Egypt and Nubian archeological sites.
Those headrests are often said to be made to protect Africans elaborate hair styles.
Headrest in three parts inscribed for Khet, late 12th Dynasty-early 13th Dynasty, Brooklyn museum
Ancient Nubian Wooden Headrest, Dongola Reach, Sudan, Kerma Classique Period-1500 BC
Headrest Dynasty 12-18, Metropolitan Museum
Tsonga headrest, Metropolitan Museum
Ashanti Headrest
Afar Headrest
Yoruba Headrest
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes the main purpose of such headrests was to protect coiffure. By the way, I notice that the tradition of wearing wigs among Egyptians is not found in East Africa as it is in West Africa especially wigs made out of plant fibers. I have only come across a few pictures of a few West African peoples who wear such wigs since the tradition is largely dying out for more 'Western' style wigs and weaves.
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
@Lioness You never did answer my question on what your qualifications were. Care to enlighten me now?
However he doesn't look very Negro here. The lips are small. the mouth opening is not wide, he has no prognathis his nose has a slight outer curve, his forehead doesn't receed much. Either he was not African, part African or an African of a type very unlike most Africans, particulary West Africans.
You raised some interesting points regarding the wigs, but then over-extended yourself with the nonsense highlighted above.
Rather than pondering the identity of Hesire, you actually make me wonder how someone who has never been to Africa (YOU) could so confidently comment on what Africans are supposed to look like. You're knowingly dealing in stereotypes, and deliberately and provocatively rejecting the images that don't accord with them.
Remember readers, this poster, known as Lioness, was evasive about admitting whether they had been to Africa and then reluctantly admitted they hadn'. Also, take a look at their strangely high number of posts (10865) and then remember their admission that they get paid per post and that they're connected to Egypt Search management.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ let's let Amun Ra answer this. Amun Ra does this man look African to you? be honest
Posted by claus3600 (Member # 19584) on :
@lioness
As someone who has travelled in 20 African countries, I can tell you that the diversity of what is African goes beyond the stereotype that you're pushing here.
That man could easily be African.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^ let's let Amun Ra answer this. Amun Ra does this man look African to you? be honest
I know he's an African because he's an Ancient Egyptian but sure, without prior knowledge than man could definitely be an African. Don't you see that? It's incredible that you don't.
Which doesn't look African/Kemites at all, nor an artistic/symbolic/abstract depictions of one. Probably a fake. It doesn't even look like other Ancient Egyptian art.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by claus3600: @lioness
As someone who has travelled in 20 African countries, I can tell you that the diversity of what is African goes beyond the stereotype that you're pushing here.
That man could easily be African.
The same has been shown and told countless of times.
Next week or so we will see the same or something similair, by this person.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
^^^ let's let Amun Ra answer this. Amun Ra does this man look African to you? be honest
I know he's an African because he's an Ancient Egyptian but sure, without prior knowledge than man could definitely be an African. Don't you see that? It's incredible that you don't.
Unlike this sculpture for example:
Which doesn't look African/Kemites at all, nor an artistic/symbolic/abstract depictions of one. Probably a fake. It doesn't even look like other Ancient Egyptian art.
I thought Amun Ra was going to clear this up but now look we have another problem, the seated scribe form the fourth dynasty
Claus, Troll Patty, you mean to tell me the Egyptians had these foreginers mingling around way back in the 4th dynasty ???
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): i do not think these Reserve Heads can be considered fake being that on many of these portraits touches of paint has been found dating to the period they were created. I do believe foreign elements are responsible for the appearance of these heads.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
also, what's up with these 18th dynasty Tomb of Nahkt hairstyles? People probably wouldn't have been wearing wigs while picking grapes. Berber origin?
.
Harvesting Figs, Tomb of Khnemhotep. period of Amenemes II or Sesostris II, 12th dynasty
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
--
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Note this topic is about Egyptian hairstyles NOT what Africans look like, but lyinass is desperate to avoid the obvious.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
...
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
/QUOTE]
Djehuti I realize you mean well but are you implying here that Queen Tiye is not wearing a wig or headress of some kind?
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
Nice picture Djehuti The black woman is a carbon copy of Queen Tiye .The Ethiopian girl braid look like the mummy braid .Thats the visual proof the Egyptian were black African .
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Is there anything in Ancient Egyptian religion regarding a similar orientation of prayer?
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ What exactly do you mean?
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass:
Djehuti I realize you mean well but are you implying here that Queen Tiye is not wearing a wig or headress of some kind?
Lyinass I realize you mean ill but did you forget that your whole point was addressed before by one of your ilk??
But to answer your question, NO I never implied that the bust depicts her actual hair. It is likely a wig and NOT a "headdress" as there are NO such headdresses that are round in shape. Only wigs which Egyptologists dub 'round wigs' but we who know better call them AFROS. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^^The same was repeated here, and it ended the same as always. A debunk and destruction of nazi babbles! It went up yo a point, the dorky idiot started to you some fraude name to impose as another black woman. lol
^^^ let's let Amun Ra answer this. Amun Ra does this man look African to you? be honest
I know he's an African because he's an Ancient Egyptian but sure, without prior knowledge than man could definitely be an African. Don't you see that? It's incredible that you don't.
Unlike this sculpture for example:
Which doesn't look African/Kemites at all, nor an artistic/symbolic/abstract depictions of one. Probably a fake. It doesn't even look like other Ancient Egyptian art.
I thought Amun Ra was going to clear this up but now look we have another problem, the seated scribe form the fourth dynasty
Claus, Troll Patty, you mean to tell me the Egyptians had these foreginers mingling around way back in the 4th dynasty ???
quote:Originally posted by Sahel (Siptah): i do not think these Reserve Heads can be considered fake being that on many of these portraits touches of paint has been found dating to the period they were created. I do believe foreign elements are responsible for the appearance of these heads.
I HAVE ANSWERED THIS MANY TIMES!!!!!!!!
DORKY IDIOT, YOUR BRAIN IS FRAGMENTED!!!!
"EXPERTS" HAVE NO CLUE ON THESE RESERVE HEADS"
BUT THE DUMB IMPOSTOR BLACK WOMAN LIKE YOU ARE STILL DOESN'T GRAPS IT. BECAUSE YOU LIKE OTHER WHITE RACISTS THINK ALL AFRICANS NEED TO HAVE STEREOTYPE FACIAL FEATURES. WHEN THERE ARE MILLIONS OF AFRICANS, NOT FROM NORTH AFRICA btw, WHO DO HAVE THESE FACIAL FEATURES. All you can do is repeat the same crap over and over again. Next week you will post the same...and so on...Blame it on the trailer park which you've never left. Despite of your numerous screen names, you always will remain the same stupid idiot you are!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
/QUOTE]
Djehuti I realize you mean well but are you implying here that Queen Tiye is not wearing a wig or headress of some kind?
HE SHOWED THIS BECAUSE OF THE FACIAL FEATURES. DORKY DUMBASS, BLACK WOMAN IMPOSTOR. LOL
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Explain, dorky, black woman impostor. What does the picture right below show us? lol
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
also, what's up with these 18th dynasty Tomb of Nahkt hairstyles? People probably wouldn't have been wearing wigs while picking grapes. Berber origin?
.
Harvesting Figs, Tomb of Khnemhotep. period of Amenemes II or Sesostris II, 12th dynasty
And on what do you base this, other then pulling sh!t out off your ass again? All you can do is look for some images of off the internet, then start fantasies about them, creating your own little story.
Btw, Siwa Berbers have resided in the Western part of Egypt for the last 10 Kya, at least.
Activity patterns in the Sahara Desert: an interpretation based on cross-sectional geometric properties.
Nikita E, Siew YY, Stock J, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
University of Cambridge, Leverhulme Center for Human Evolutionary Studies, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, CB2 1QH,
Abstract
quote:
The Garamantian civilization flourished in modern Fezzan, Libya, between 900 BC and 500 AD, during which the aridification of the Sahara was well established. Study of the archaeological remains suggests a population successful at coping with a harsh environment of high and fluctuating temperatures and reduced water and food resources. This study explores the activity patterns of the Garamantes by means of cross-sectional geometric properties. Long bone diaphyseal shape and rigidity are compared between the Garamantes and populations from Egypt and Sudan, namely from the sites of Kerma, el-Badari, and Jebel Moya, to determine whether the Garamantian daily activities were more strenuous than those of other North African populations. Moreover, sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry are assessed at an intra- and inter-population level. The inter-population comparisons showed the Garamantes not to be more robust than the comparative populations, suggesting that the daily Garamantian activities necessary for survival in the Sahara Desert did not generally impose greater loads than those of other North African populations. Sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry in almost all geometric properties of the long limbs were comparatively low among the Garamantes. Only the lower limbs were significantly stronger among males than females, possibly due to higher levels of mobility associated with herding. The lack of systematic bilateral asymmetry in cross-sectional geometric properties may relate to the involvement of the population in bilaterally intensive activities or the lack of regular repetition of unilateral activities.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations. Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract
quote:
The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
quote:
Ancient finds in the Western Desert of Egypt at Gebel Ramlah circa 5,000 BC show culture closely linked with indigenous tropical Africans of both the Saharan and sub-Saharan regions, not Europe or the Middle East. Dental studies put the inhabitants of Gebel Ramlah, closest to indigenous tropical African populations.
"During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts.
Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. There were no indications of social differentiation. The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization."
-- Burial practices of the Final Neolithic pastoralists at Gebel Ramlah, Western Desert of Egypt
Michal Kobusiewicz, Jacek Kabacinski, Romuald Schild, Joel D. Irish and Fred Wendorf
British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan 13 (2009): 147–74
"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"
--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)
Yale Egyptological Institute in Egypt
Early Neolithic to Predynastic/A-Group
quote: "Remains in the immediate eastern foreland of Kurkur, just east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, are sparse. Numerous and widely distributed hearth mounds18 occur in the area. Pottery, though sparse, further demonstrates the association of early Nile Valley and Western Desert cultures. "
^ That's all the black imposter does is spin her lies about whatever evidence is presented to her and offer NO facts at all.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti:
/QUOTE]
Djehuti I realize you mean well but are you implying here that Queen Tiye is not wearing a wig or headress of some kind?
HE SHOWED THIS BECAUSE OF THE FACIAL FEATURES. DORKY DUMBASS, BLACK WOMAN IMPOSTOR. LOL
Actually I posted the pictures to show the comparison of hairstyles being both Afros. Though now that you mention it, I do see somewhat of a resemblance. LOL Quite the coincidence or irony, huh?
The lyinass questions whether it is a wig or a headdress. Again, there are no headdresses that are round like that so it is likely a wig. Even if the bust does not represent her actual hair but a wig, it still speaks to the African nature of Egypt's hairstyles.
What of this man below?
He too is portrayed with "round hair". Whether it is his own or a wig is not the issue.
Posted by the lioness (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patty: HE SHOWED THIS BECAUSE OF THE FACIAL FEATURES. DORKY DUMBASS, BLACK WOMAN IMPOSTOR. LOL [/qb]
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually I posted the pictures to show the comparison of hairstyles being both Afros...
it is likely a wig. Even if the bust does not represent her actual hair but a wig, it still speaks to the African nature of Egypt's hairstyles.
Troll Patty, Djehuti has exposed you as the dumbass. You were wrong, yes Djehuti posted the above to speak about HAIR. I demand an apology and admission that you were wrong.
demerit
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
What of this man below?
He too is portrayed with "round hair". Whether it is his own or a wig is not the issue.
I'm not sure about it. Is it a wig representing an afro? Most Africans don't have big round puffy afros. It might be though My view is that ancient Egypt throughout the dyansties was multi ethnic including Africans and non-Africans in the mix
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: Explain, dorky, black woman impostor. What does the picture right below show us? lol
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
also, what's up with these 18th dynasty Tomb of Nahkt hairstyles? People probably wouldn't have been wearing wigs while picking grapes. Berber origin?
.
Harvesting Figs, Tomb of Khnemhotep. period of Amenemes II or Sesostris II, 12th dynasty
And on what do you base this, other then pulling sh!t out off your ass again? All you can do is look for some images of off the internet, then start fantasies about them, creating your own little story.
Btw, Siwa Berbers have resided in the Western part of Egypt for the last 10 Kya, at least.
Activity patterns in the Sahara Desert: an interpretation based on cross-sectional geometric properties.
Nikita E, Siew YY, Stock J, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
University of Cambridge, Leverhulme Center for Human Evolutionary Studies, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, CB2 1QH,
Abstract
quote:
The Garamantian civilization flourished in modern Fezzan, Libya, between 900 BC and 500 AD, during which the aridification of the Sahara was well established. Study of the archaeological remains suggests a population successful at coping with a harsh environment of high and fluctuating temperatures and reduced water and food resources. This study explores the activity patterns of the Garamantes by means of cross-sectional geometric properties. Long bone diaphyseal shape and rigidity are compared between the Garamantes and populations from Egypt and Sudan, namely from the sites of Kerma, el-Badari, and Jebel Moya, to determine whether the Garamantian daily activities were more strenuous than those of other North African populations. Moreover, sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry are assessed at an intra- and inter-population level. The inter-population comparisons showed the Garamantes not to be more robust than the comparative populations, suggesting that the daily Garamantian activities necessary for survival in the Sahara Desert did not generally impose greater loads than those of other North African populations. Sexual dimorphism and bilateral asymmetry in almost all geometric properties of the long limbs were comparatively low among the Garamantes. Only the lower limbs were significantly stronger among males than females, possibly due to higher levels of mobility associated with herding. The lack of systematic bilateral asymmetry in cross-sectional geometric properties may relate to the involvement of the population in bilaterally intensive activities or the lack of regular repetition of unilateral activities.
Am J Phys Anthropol. 2012 Feb;147(2):280-92. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21645. Epub 2011 Dec 20.
Sahara: Barrier or corridor? Nonmetric cranial traits and biological affinities of North African late Holocene populations. Nikita E, Mattingly D, Lahr MM.
Source
Leverhulme Centre for Human Evolutionary Studies, Department of Biological Anthropology, University of Cambridge, Fitzwilliam Street, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract
quote:
The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.
quote:
Ancient finds in the Western Desert of Egypt at Gebel Ramlah circa 5,000 BC show culture closely linked with indigenous tropical Africans of both the Saharan and sub-Saharan regions, not Europe or the Middle East. Dental studies put the inhabitants of Gebel Ramlah, closest to indigenous tropical African populations.
"During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts.
Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. There were no indications of social differentiation. The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization."
-- Burial practices of the Final Neolithic pastoralists at Gebel Ramlah, Western Desert of Egypt
Michal Kobusiewicz, Jacek Kabacinski, Romuald Schild, Joel D. Irish and Fred Wendorf
British Museum Studies in Ancient Egypt and Sudan 13 (2009): 147–74
"Despite the difference, Gebel Ramlah [the Western Desert- Saharan region] is closest to predynastic and early dynastic samples from Abydos, Hierakonpolis, and Badari.." [the Badarians ]are a "good representative of what the common ancestor to all later predynastic and dynastic Egyptian peoples would be like"
--(Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.)
Yale Egyptological Institute in Egypt
Early Neolithic to Predynastic/A-Group
quote: "Remains in the immediate eastern foreland of Kurkur, just east of the Sinn el-Kiddab escarpment, are sparse. Numerous and widely distributed hearth mounds18 occur in the area. Pottery, though sparse, further demonstrates the association of early Nile Valley and Western Desert cultures. "
Good points.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the toothless lioness:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patty: HE SHOWED THIS BECAUSE OF THE FACIAL FEATURES. DORKY DUMBASS, BLACK WOMAN IMPOSTOR. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Actually I posted the pictures to show the comparison of hairstyles being both Afros...
it is likely a wig. Even if the bust does not represent her actual hair but a wig, it still speaks to the African nature of Egypt's hairstyles.
Troll Patty, Djehuti has exposed you as the dumbass. You were wrong, yes Djehuti posted the above to speak about HAIR. I demand an apology and admission that you were wrong.
demerit
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
What of this man below?
He too is portrayed with "round hair". Whether it is his own or a wig is not the issue.
I'm not sure about it. Is it a wig representing an afro? Most Africans don't have big round puffy afros. It might be though My view is that ancient Egypt throughout the dyansties was multi ethnic including Africans and non-Africans in the mix [/QB]
Your view?loooooool
lol at this slow minded pseudo dumb piece of sh!t!
Nuff said!
this hair texture:
can get like this, easy;
LOL AT Dorky the impostor!
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: Troll Patty, Djehuti has exposed you as the dumbass. You were wrong, yes Djehuti posted the above to speak about HAIR. I demand an apology and admission that you were wrong.
demerit
B|tch, quit projecting! The only one whose dumbness was exposed is your OWN!
quote:
quote:[qb]Originally posted by Djehuti:
What of this man below?
He too is portrayed with "round hair". Whether it is his own or a wig is not the issue.
I'm not sure about it. Is it a wig representing an afro? Most Africans don't have big round puffy afros. It might be though My view is that ancient Egypt throughout the dyansties was multi ethnic including Africans and non-Africans in the mix
Dumb b|tch, who ever said anything about "most" Africans. And as always YOUR twisted view has no support whatsoever from any evidence! I take it you think big puffy afros are the result of non-African admixture??! First you say wavy hair is the result of admixture which at least sounds reasonable now you say puffy afros are! LOL You are a pathetic white girl in black face! Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness: My view is that ancient Egypt throughout the dyansties was multi ethnic including Africans and non-Africans in the mix
I agree that they were some level of multi-ethnicity in Ancient Egypt. I'm not sure how high or low it was. In fact, many of those ethnicities were typical black Africans ones.
Personally, I think each Ancient Egyptians nomes were composed of a different ethnic groups (probably closely related). For example, the first Nome of Ancient Egypt in the 12th Dynasty was Nubia.
More you advance with time, more and more foreigners began to populate Ancient Egypt. We even know that they were Hyksos (literally: foreign) dynasties as early as the 17th Dynasty (and most probably before in the Delta).
Sorry this is from Wiki:
quote: The Hyksos first appeared in Egypt c.1800 BC, during the eleventh dynasty, and began their climb to power in the thirteenth dynasty, coming out of the second intermediate period in control of Avaris and the Delta. By the fifteenth dynasty, they ruled Lower Egypt, and at the end of the seventeenth dynasty, they were expelled (c.1560 BC).
They were expelled and the 18th Dynasty people who didn't seem to like them very much. But there's a high probability that some of those foreigners were still there after their so-called expulsion.
====================
To follow another path about the degree of multi-ethnicity in Egypt. I want people to consider Herodotus quotes about what the Kemite priests told him about what was probably the Kushites (Ethiopians) dynasty:
Herodotus writings are important since he was an historian with a eye witness account of the Ancient Egyptians during the late dynasties. That is during the Persian occupation of Egypt. He went to Ancient Kemet and talked to priests and various people there and visited many places.
Consider this quote from Herodotus which relates Ancient Kemite priests account of Ancient Egypt history.
quote:He was succeeded on the throne, they said, by a blind man, a native of Anysis, whose own name also was Anysis. Under him Egypt was invaded by a vast army of Ethiopians, led by Sabacos, their king. The blind Anysis fled away to the marsh-country, and the Ethiopian was lord of the land for fifty years, during which his mode of rule was the following:- When an Egyptian was guilty of an offence, his plan was not to punish him with death: instead of so doing, he sentenced him, according to the nature of his crime , to raise the ground to a greater or a less extent in the neighbourhood of the city to which he belonged. Thus the cities came to be even more elevated than they were before. As early as the time of Sesostris, they had been raised by those who dug the canals in his reign; this second elevation of the soil under the Ethiopian king gave them a very lofty position. Among the many cities which thus attained to a great elevation, none (I think) was raised so much as the town called Bubastis, where there is a temple of the goddess Bubastis, which well deserves to be described. Other temples may be grander, and may have cost more in the building, but there is none so pleasant to the eye as this of Bubastis. The Bubastis of the Egyptians is the same as the Artemis (Diana) of the Greeks.
quote: He [edit:Anysis, the previous King] had lived in the marsh-region the whole time, having formed for himself an island there by a mixture of earth and ashes. While he remained, the natives had orders to bring him food unbeknown to the Ethiopian, and latterly, at his request, each man had brought him, with the food, a certain quantity of ashes.
quote:The Ethiopian finally quitted Egypt, the priests said, by a hasty flight under the following circumstances. He saw in his sleep a vision:- a man stood by his side, and counselled him to gather together all the priests of Egypt and cut every one of them asunder. On this, according to the account which he himself gave, it came into his mind that the gods intended hereby to lead him to commit an act of sacrilege, which would be sure to draw down upon him some punishment either at the hands of gods or men. So he resolved not to do the deed suggested to him, but rather to retire from Egypt, as the time during which it was fated that he should hold the country had now (he thought) expired. For before he left Ethiopia he had been told by the oracles which are venerated there, that he was to reign fifty years over Egypt. The years were now fled, and the dream had come to trouble him; he therefore of his own accord withdrew from the land.
So according to the Ancient Egyptian priest. Sabacos didn't do any massacres and left on his own accord (not by an Ancient Egyptian revolt or something like that). His presence and departure wholly justified by his own Oracle. Oracles were respected in ancient times among the Ethiopians but also among Kemites and other Africans ethic groups.
During his reign, he wasn't cruel. Instead of killing criminals, he punished them according to the nature of their crimes. And went forward to do some construction works in Ancient Egypt.
The Ethiopians King even agreed eventually to order people to feed the previous King Anasys (instead of killing him or something).
It must be noted that the same Kemite priest was very critical of some early dynasties (just read The Histories section above the quotes here). So those priests were able to be very critical of previous Kemites Dynasties when talking to Herodotus.
I don't know what you guys think, but it looks like some strangely positive rendition of an foreign invasion by people who were invaded. Usually, you prefer to portray foreign invaders as bad people.
This openness of Ancient Egyptian priests toward the Ethiopians occupation of Kemet show that Ancient Egyptians at that time had a positive outlook on another ethnic groups (the Ethiopians) invading them. Thus were probably open to multi-ethnicity to some degree.
Were those priests more open toward them because they were a close African ethnicity. I'm not sure.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes the main purpose of such headrests was to protect coiffure.
I don't think there's any other ethnic groups on earth beside Africans who have such headrests. As you say, probably related to the nature of their hair styles and hair extensions or just cultural (tradition).
If other ethnic groups have such headrests please post it here (I am really curious about it).
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I too know of no other group or ethnicity outside of the African continent that uses headrests.
As for the lyinass claim of "multi-ethnic", I've said before many times that Rome and Greece are never considered "multi-ethnic" even though there were non-European foreigners among them or ancestral to them (in the case of Greece). Furthermore, there is no evidence whatsoever to show that the Egyptian populace by and large was anything other than African! Of course there were non-African minority communities particularly in the Delta yet such minorities had no significant impact on Egyptian culture by and large except maybe the Hyksos in terms of military technology. It's even been shown that throughout dynastic times the majority of the population lived in the valley as opposed to the Delta which was more sparsely populated and even then the earliest Delta communities were established in the western areas by Africans. Quite simply there is no evidence of any mass invasion or immigration from the outside until post-dynastic times and virtually all Egyptologists including Hawass acknowledge that! This is why all the hairstyles are obviously African in nature and non associated with 'Eurasians'. That lyinass idiots have a problem with this is just too bad.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Getting more to the topic of this thread. If Egypt was so multi-racial, then why are ALL the hairstyles African in nature?? How come there are no hairstyles reflective of Asia or Europe?? Can anyone answer this question?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Djeshitty, were Rome and Greece and multi-ethnic?
yes or no please, no magic tricks
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
Ancient Egyptians were physically, genetically, and culturally African.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Most major civilizations were multi-ethnic, in the sense that they generally included other ethnic groups who either enforced themselves on the locals or were welcomed in. That, however, does not mean that the founder population itself, or the descendants of that founder population, were multi-ethnic, in the sense that you have used that term since you reared your head on this forum. Don't try to conflate both contentions in your desperate bid to get him to agree with something you did not initially mean. Of course Rome and Greece were multi-ethnic. You can stop being such a slimy snake and pretend like your notion of a mulatto Egypt is anywhere near similar to your question to Djehuti.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
the most likely candidates for a multi ethnic founder population would include the various neighboring regions rather than blond people named Derk or Sven
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
The notion of several biologically African founder populations in Predynastic Egypt is not inconsistent with the data, but, again, this view is not really co-signed by Lioness productions, so why waste energy and try to trick people into thinking that that's what you believe, when we are on to you like we're USADA and you're Armstrong?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: The notion of several biologically African founder populations in Predynastic Egypt is not inconsistent with the data, but, again, this view is not really co-signed by Lioness productions, so why waste energy and try to trick people into thinking that that's what you believe, when we are on to you like we're USADA and you're Armstrong?
so tell me what I'm co-signed to, I forgot what it was
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Djehuti asked lyinass: If Egypt was so multi-racial, then why are ALL the hairstyles African in nature?? How come there are no hairstyles reflective of Asia or Europe?? Can anyone answer this question?
quote:to which lyinass responded: Djeshitty, were Rome and Greece and multi-ethnic?
yes or no please, no magic tricks
LMAO It seems I hit a nerve. Instead of answering my question, the twit asks me a question. My answer: YES Greece and Rome were multi-ethnic. That does not mean were by and large 'multiracial' or at least in the sense that you wish for Egypt! Both Greece and Rome whatever heterogeneous influences had prevailing singular cultures i.e. Greek and Roman.
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Most major civilizations were multi-ethnic, in the sense that they generally included other ethnic groups who either enforced themselves on the locals or were welcomed in. That, however, does not mean that the founder population itself, or the descendants of that founder population, were multi-ethnic, in the sense that you have used that term since you reared your head on this forum. Don't try to conflate both contentions in your desperate bid to get him to agree with something you did not initially mean. Of course Rome and Greece were multi-ethnic. You can stop being such a slimy snake and pretend like your notion of a mulatto Egypt is anywhere near similar to your question to Djehuti.
Well put. Her slimy ass got caught once again. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
My answer: YES Greece and Rome were multi-ethnic. That does not mean were by and large 'multiracial' or at least in the sense that you wish for Egypt! Both Greece and Rome whatever heterogeneous influences had prevailing singular cultures i.e. Greek and Roman.
And as we have noted on ES before in other threads, depending on how one views "ethnic" categories and uses HLA data, some Greeks show a sub-Saharan component. If there are any "mixed race" claims re Africans, then hypocritical claimants should be consistent and apply the same "mixed race" approach to Europeans with African DNA.
Recap for new readers: ----------------------------------------
1-- Villena's Greek-Macedonian-African study has nothing to do with the Jew-Palestinian controversy. The study was withdrawn for political reasons, and offended sensibilities of various Jewish and other groups. Assorted "biodiversity" types try to use that to advance a bogus claim that the Greek data was "withdrawn." Total BS. It is alive and well and appears specifically in Vilenna's Greek study: HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks Tissue Antigens 2001: 57: 118–127 Jewish - Palestinian controversies have nothing to do with it.
2-- The Palestinian study also notes that Greeks are related to Africans via cystic fibrosis mutations.
3-- It is true that the data being used is highly variable HLA genes. However the presence of Japanese clustering with south Africans is not as far fetched as it seems. HLA genes are useful in analyzing certain arthritis conditions. There is hard medical data in various HLA studies that indeed show Japanese and south African blacks grouping together in relation to arthritis conditions. See the data below.
4-- Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times: quote: "The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania... " -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population. J.L Angel 1971
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
------------------ Scholars also link the Negroid elements to sickle-cell anemia------- QUOTE: "The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
5-- Other elements like Benin Sickle Cell traits are also found among the Greeks and various Africans and some skeletal/cranial studies find African elements in Greece (Angel 1972 for example) QUOTE:
"A late Pleistocene-early Holocene northward migration (from Africa to the Levant and to Anatolia) of these populations has been hypothesized from skeletal data (Angel 1972, 1973; Brace 2005) and from archaeological data, as indicated by the probable Nile Valley origin of the "Mesolithic" (epi-Paleolithic) Mushabi culture found in the Levant (Bar Yosef 1987). This migration finds some support in the presence in Mediterranean populations (Sicily, Greece, southern Turkey, etc.; Patrinos et al.; Schiliro et al. 1990) of the Benin sickle cell haplotype. This haplotype originated in West Africa and is probably associated with the spread of malaria to southern Europe through an eastern Mediterranean route (Salares et al. 2004) following the expansion of both human and mosquito populations brought about by the advent of the Neolithic transition (Hume et al 2003; Joy et al. 2003; Rich et al 1998). This northward migration of northeastern African populations carrying sub-Saharan biological elements is concordant with the morphological homogeneity of the Natufian populations (Bocquentin 2003), which present morphological affinity with sub-Saharan populations (Angel 1972; Brace et al. 2005). In addition, the Neolithic revolution was assumed to arise in the late Pleistocene Natufians and subsequently spread into Anatolia and Europe (Bar-Yosef 2002), and the first Anatolian farmers, Neolithic to Bronze Age Mediterraneans and to some degree other Neolithic-Bronze Age Europeans, show morphological affinities with the Natufians (and indirectly with sub-Saharan populations; Angel 1972; Brace et al 2005), in concordance with a process of demic diffusion accompanying the extension of the Neolithic revolution (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994)."
-- F. X. Ricaut, M. Waelkens. (2008). Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements Human Biology - Volume 80, Number 5, October 2008, pp. 535-564
6-- Other cultural/archaeo data testify to the African presence, africans again having a wde range of features
QUOTES "THE FORERUNNERS During the Early Minoan period the population of southern Crete may have included a Negroid element. The presence of such an element from Libya in the Cretan population has been argued on the basis of an inlay of shell now in the Ashmolean Museum. This inlay may have come from an early circular tomb at Ayios Onouphrios. It depects a bearded face, with thick lips and snub nose. Other objects might lead to the same observaton for later periods. Among the faiences showing house fronts (Middle Minoan II)15 there is one in which are seen the prow of a ship and swarthy, prognathous, clearly Negroid people, some steatopygic... It is uncertain, however, what role to assign to the non-Minoan figures in this scene, which it has been suggested, may represent the represent the siege of a seacoast town. Scholars are in greater agreement with respect to their interpretations of the coal black spearmen who appear in a fragment of a fresco, which Evans called The Captain of the Blacks, belonging to Late Minoan 145 II.18 The fresco depicts a Minoan captain, wearing a yellow kilt and a horned cap of skin, who leads, at the double, a file of black men similarly dressed." -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
"The Theran is a young man whose black wavy hairm rather thick lips, and nose with reduced platyrrniny are clearly shown. Although he acknowledges that these traits suggest a NEgrito or Nubian, Marinatos avoids precise anthropological definition and concludes that the characteristics seem to indicate an "African".
"An intrepretation of NEgroes in Crete and Pylos as soldiers would have some support in the example of Egypt, with its long tradition of Nubian mercenaries. A striking example, belonging somewhat earlier period that that of the Minoan Captain of the Blacks fresco, is provided by the wooden models of forthy black archers in Cairo, found in a tomb of a prince of Assiut." pg 138
L. Bertholon and E. Chantre have analyzed results of black-white crossings in their detailed anthropoligical study of ancient and modern Tripolitiana, Tunisia, and Algeria. They call attention to the degrees of Negro admixture as evidenced by the extent to which Negroid features appear in mixed North African peoples. R. Bartoccini in his study of the somatic characteristics of anciet Libyans, illustrates his observations on racial crossings between Libyans and Negroes from the interior by pointing to the Negroid nose (broad) and hair (curly or wooly) .."
"Some of the physical features of this type are: dark or black color expressed in a variety of ways, tightly curled platyrrhine nose, and thick, often everted lips. '
"In a scene on a red-figured calyx-krater of the peropd from Canicattoni, now in Syracuse, a female dancer, fully draped, stands on tiptoe. The treatment of the nose, the lips and the tightly curled hair indicates that Negroid features were intended.. the realism and anthropological fidelity of those cited above leave no doubt as to the artists' intent.." pg 171 -- The image of the Black in Western art: Volume 4, Part 1 Jean Vercoutter, Ladislas Bugner, Jean Devisse. 1976
-------------------------------
7.. ADDITIONAL DATA: AFRICAN HAPLOGROUP E FOUND IN GREEKS
QUOTE: "Underhill et al. (2001) showed that the frequency of the YAP+ Y haplogroup commonly referred to as haplogroup E or (III) is relatively high (about 25%) in the Middle East and Mediterranean. This haplogroup E is the major haplogroup found in sub-Saharan Africa (over 75% of all Y chromosomes). SPecifically, Europeans contain the E3b subhaplogroup, which was derived from haplogroup E in sub-Saharan Africa and currently is distributed along the North and East of Africa.. It appears that the 171 AIM test subject of this chapter may recognize the haplogroup E character as West African."
--T. Frudakis. 2006. Molecular photofitting: predicting ancestry and phenotype using DNA Well according to genetic analyses the Greeks are close to 1/4th black carrying 23% African paternal lineages.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times
Those quotemines are of two isolated skeletons.
Out of a detailed analyse of 388 crania, Angel (1946) found no Mongoloid or Negroid types:
Angel, J. Lawrence. (1946). "Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth." American Anthropologist. 48(4). pp. 493-533.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova: My answer: YES Greece and Rome were multi-ethnic. That does not mean were by and large 'multiracial' or at least in the sense that you wish for Egypt! Both Greece and Rome whatever heterogeneous influences had prevailing singular cultures i.e. Greek and Roman.
And as we have noted on ES before in other threads, depending on how one views "ethnic" categories and uses HLA data, some Greeks show a sub-Saharan component. If there are any "mixed race" claims re Africans, then hypocritical claimants should be consistent and apply the same "mixed race" approach to Europeans with African DNA.
Recap for new readers:
^^^ see I was right The Egyptians and Greeks were mulattoes
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ LOL I see your back to using bankrupt racial terms. Correction. Greeks were "mulattos" since the Neolithic. Egyptians were not until Medieval times after the Islamic Period. Big difference.
Therefore your claim that pharaonic Egypt was 'mixed-race' is null and void. You've been in this forum long enough to see the mountains of anthropological data on the Egyptians so don't play dumb, twit.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fatheadbonkers:
quote:Anthro/Archaeo data show the presence of African traits (and remember Africans have a wide variety of traits) in the Neolithic data. The full info has already been posted but here is some anthro/archaeo data affirming the presence of "negroid" traits from early times
Those quote mines are of two isolated skeletons.
Out of a detailed analyse of 388 crania, Angel (1946) found no Mongoloid or Negroid types:
Angel, J. Lawrence. (1946). "Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth." American Anthropologist. 48(4). pp. 493-533.
WRONG as usual. It was far more than "two isolated skeletons". Various anthropologists have noted a frequency of so-called "negroid" traits among Neolithic Greeks and other Balkans. Which is why Angel wrote: "one can identify negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and **Macedonian** first farmers"
Also from Angel: "Early Neolithic Macedonia centered on a Dinaric-Mediterranean (type F) average but with an extremely broad nose, more prognathism, and a little more mouth tilt than expected (all, perhaps from negroid development of the incisor region.." -- 'The people of Lerna: analysis of a prehistoric Aegean population'
And then we have other authors..
"The female of forty-plus years of age from Grave 2 was examined by J. L. Angel who noted what he interpreted as a number of 'negroid' .. traits in the face." The skull is fairly complete, but not enough so for discriminant function analysis." There is marked maxillary prognathism and the orbits may be described as rectangular, traits frequently used in forensic diagnosis of Negro crania..." -- 'Skeletons of Lerna Hollow'. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --'The Aegean and the Orient in the Second Millennium': proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..." -- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
So as you can see the evidence is not confined to "two skeletons" only. Which makes sense considering the corresponding genetic evidence.
"The female from Grave 2 is among those with thickened parietals. It should be pointed out that maxillary prognathsm, one of the skeleton's "Negroid" features, is characteristic both of thalassemia and sickle-cell anemia." -- Skeletons of Lerna Hollow. Al B. Wesolowsky. Hesperia, Vol. 42, No. 3. (Jul. - Sep., 1973), pp. 340-351.
Benin HBS (sickle cell) in Greece
'Sub-Saharan' HLA genes in Greeks
Yeah just "two Africans" alone in neolithic Greece. Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
^^lol.... and as the idiot's own favorite racist Carleton Coons notes, "Mediterranean" types also have a "Negroid tendency"....
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Indeed. The fool tried to argue this was due to miscegenation but Coon made it clear such "negroid tendencies" were part and parcel of proto-Mediterraneans. He is kaput.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
^ No he didn't. This is just another Afroloon "cut and run" where you post the "negroid tendency" part but cut off the full quote, where it clarifies this is only found in Natufians.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:A supporter of the southern segregationist cause
Coon was apolitical. There is no evidence he supported segregation or anti-segregation.
quote:along with his cousin Carleton Putnam
Yea the same nonsense by race denialists and liberals that are obsessed to link Coon to politics, when he was apolitical.
Putnam and Coon only discovered they shared an ancestor over 300 years ago.
Putnam was Coon's distant 8th cousin via John Putnam (1579-1662). They only discovered they were related during late in their life.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:WRONG as usual. It was far more than "two isolated skeletons". Various anthropologists have noted a frequency of so-called "negroid" traits among Neolithic Greeks and other Balkans. Which is why Angel wrote: "one can identify negroid traits of nose and prognathism appearing in natufian hunters (McCown, 1939) and in Anatolian and **Macedonian** first farmers"
Find a craniometric or typological study identifying Negroids.
Angel's (1946) detailed study of 388 crania, found zero Negroids or Mongoloids.
No one takes quotemines by Afroloons serious. You never read the full studies, and where you see the word negroid you have a fit (despite claiming you don't believe they exist, lmao) which leads to quotemines and distortions.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fartheadbonkers: ^ No he didn't. This is just another Afroloon "cut and run" where you post the "negroid tendency" part but cut off the full quote, where it clarifies this is only found in Natufians.
LOL Did you not read the full excerpt?! Yes he states this to be a Natufian feature, yet Angel made it very much clear that these Natufians were AFRICAN predecessors of the Tasians and Badarians. Your incessant and idiotic interpretations that these were "Caucasoids with negroid tendencies" is what is hilarious! Even Brace admitted in his study that these same early Natufians tie together craniofacially with West African 'Negroids' than with anyone else, you dummy!
Let's see, these people have 'negroid' affinities and come from Africa. Yet in your twisted mind these are still 'caucasoids'. LOL
They say hell is a place of no reason but I guess it must be the opposite with race-loons like yourself-- reality is a place full of reasoning, which is why reality is your hell! LOL
I would tell you to kill yourself to end your 'suffering' but that would be too mean. Posted by Baron Cope (Member # 22932) on :
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Perhaps it never occurred to you that the Egyptians wore afro wigs because such wigs represented their own natural hair-- Afros--since the Egyptians were Africans! And enough of the "negro" crap!
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