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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 












 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Yeah. I know. 180deg within year by DNATribes. At least they seem honest by correcting their mistake of Feb2012.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Tbl3 and concl stuff is absurd keeping in mind this company's FAQ:

quote:

---

Each of these regions retains unique characteristics that
cannot be described by a basic division of the world into
3-5 regions. For instance, North African Berbers are not a
mixture of Europeans and West Africans, but are unique
peoples with distinctive genetic characteristics.

---

So which is it unique peoples or
A little bit of Monica in my life
A little bit of Erica by my side
A little bit of Rita is all I need
A little bit of Tina is what I see
A little bit of Sandra in the sun
A little bit of Mary all night long
A little bit of Jessica here I am


What they say about Maurusian is silly but it
goes to show the importance of a name. As long
as IberoMaurusian remains in use continued bs
nonsense about Maurusian ties to Iberia will
circulate despite all the opposing facts.


@XYYman
This is quasi-science. Expect another orientation next year.

Quasimodo manipulative guesswork.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Tbl3 and concl stuff is absurd keeping in mind this company's FAQ:

quote:

---

Each of these regions retains unique characteristics that
cannot be described by a basic division of the world into
3-5 regions. For instance, North African Berbers are not a
mixture of Europeans and West Africans, but are unique
peoples with distinctive genetic characteristics.

---

So which is it unique peoples or
A little bit of Monica in my life
A little bit of Erica by my side
A little bit of Rita is all I need
A little bit of Tina is what I see
A little bit of Sandra in the sun
A little bit of Mary all night long
A little bit of Jessica here I am


What they say about Maurusian is silly but it
goes to show the importance of a name. As long
as IberoMaurusian remains in use continued bs
nonsense about Maurusian ties to Iberia will
circulate despite all the opposing facts.


@XYYman
This is quasi-science. Expect another orientation next year.

Quasimodo manipulative guesswork.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Genomic Ancestry of North Africans Supports Back-to-Africa Migrations
Brenna M. Henn

Abstract

North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data [730,000 sites] from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago [ya], prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago [approximately 1,200 ya]; a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago [approximately 750 ya]. Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa.

Conclusion

Our genome-wide dense genotyping data from seven North African populations allow us to address outstanding questions regarding the origin and migration history of North Africa. We propose that present-day ancestry in North Africa is the result of at least three distinct episodes: ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene, more recent gene flow from the Near East resulting in a longitudinal gradient, and limited but very recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa. Population structure in North Africa is particularly complex, and future disease or phenotypic studies should carefully account for local demographic history. However, the rich history of gene flow can also help empower genome-wide association mapping via admixture mapping techniques . For example, the variable but relatively long haplotypes of sub-Saharan ancestry are amenable to admixture mapping approaches developed for African-American samples. In conclusion, North African populations retain a unique signature of early “Maghrebi” ancestry, but North African populations are not a homogenous group and most display varying combinations of five distinct ancestries

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North Africans are a unique mix, that is the answer

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Although care should be taken in interpreting these values, they
indicate that the ancestral segments of Mozabite are significantly
diverged from extant Bantu-African and European related populations.
... the Mozabite are not perfectly modeled as a linear combination
of European and African ancestry.

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--Price et al 2009

^Essentially the same as Henn et al 2012's solid reasoning for why the predominant Maghrebi component detected in Berber populations doesn't postdate the Holocene (they have alleles that are unique to them and bespeak divergence times from Eurasians that are >10kya):

A scenario where North African Maghrebi ancestry is the result of in situ population absorbing Near Eastern migrants would likely need the following premises to explain the results here and elsewhere: a) an Out-of-Africa migration [concurrent with bottleneck] occurs 50–60 Kya, geographically dividing North African and Near Eastern populations; b) North Africans experience a separate bottleneck; c) gene flow maintains similarity between the two geographically distinct populations; d) the gene flow then ceases or slows roughly between 12–40 Kya in order to allow sufficiently distinct allele frequency distributions to form.
--Henn et al 2012

^Berber populations have Eurasian ancestry that is clearly unaccounted for by the confused ''historic female slave trade'' fairytale pushers, who are motivated only by their hidden agenda to not have to admit that the Eurasian genetic component in Berbers--which is embodied by what's left over when historic Arab and historic European and slightly older West African ancestry is subtracted--can be traced back to Ibero-maurusians.

The afronut bogus ''female Eurasian slaves'' excuse, when applied to what's CLEARLY prehistoric, non-recent ancestry in Berbers, needs to be called out for the crackpot emotion-driven quackery that it is. As pointed out by Price et al 2009, Henn et al 2012, Achilli et al 2005, Kefi et al 2005, Frigi et al 2011, and many others, Berbers are NOT a blend of a Sub-Saharan component and a recent (common era), Eurasian component.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
the lioness you should be ashamed of posting those old results again in this thread and in other similar threads this week. They have already been debunked in the other threads you posted those a year or so ago.

I won't explain it all over again but people must remember that those results only show *EXTERNAL* contribution to the genome under study (of North African in this case) and exclude local contribution to the genome.

For example, **external** contribution of 50% from Levantine could represent only 5% of the SNPs of North Africa if the ***local** contribution is, lets say, 90%.

It would mean that 50% of the 10% comes from the Levantine group.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
the lioness you should be ashamed of posting those old results again in this thread and in other similar threads this week. They have already been debunked in the other threads you posted those a year or so ago.

I won't explain it all over again but people must remember that those results only show *EXTERNAL* contribution to the genome under study (of North African in this case) and exclude local contribution to the genome.

For example, **external** contribution of 50% from Levantine could represent only 5% of the SNPs of North Africa if the ***local** contribution is, lets say, 90%.

It would mean that 50% of the 10% comes from the Levantine group.

---

What you are saying could be used to invalidate any of the DNA Tribes reports such as the
Sahelian and Iberain

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^^

they listed

Algerians
Libyan
Mozabite
North Morocco
South Morocco
Sahrawi
Tunsia


^^^^ take any one of these groups

and please give me an example of a specific North African lineage, name an ethnic group of North Africans
-that contribute a significant amount of DNA to that group
something not covered by that pie chart

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


For example
Tunisia:

Local contribution called North African= 89.5% (thus the foreign contribution is "only" 100-89.5=10.5%)
External contribution of Arabia= 1.9%
External contribution of Horn of Africa=0.9%
Other External contribution...

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this is a circular semantic argument but you don't know it.

"local contribution called North African" is meaningless unless you can associate that with ethnic groups that have names, otherwise it's just an abstraction, purely rhetorical.

Let's see you break down 89.5% to ethnic groups that have names
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
excludng North African admixture



Algerians
Libyan
Mozabite
North Morocco
South Morocco
Sahrawi
Tunsia

^^^^ the excluded admixture, is the admixture between thee groups from one to the other.

Libyans with Moroccan DNA
Tunisians with Algerian DNA etc

and these groups are heavily admixted to begin with
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
We know that many of these people are "mixed" but when did that mixture take place? As has been pointed out many times before most of that Mixture is historic (last 1500 years). So while it is true that there are populations in North Africa that are mixed it is not true that these are also the ORIGINAL populations of North Africa from before 3,000 years ago. Not by a long shot.

And all populations in North Africa are not mixed and as you all noticed the DNA tribes definition of "NOrth Africa" is flawed to begin with. North Africa also includes Mali, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and Chad along with Egypt. But of course these clowns always try and limit North Africa to those regions North of the Sahara, which not coincidentally is the area of the MOST admixture and then try and extrapolate that to all the rest of the region they did not include as North Africa.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
First up, I gave up doobie before college.

2nd- you are really confused. You started the Henn thread. Henn clearly stated that North Africans are NOT modern day Arabs. The illiterate ie those who can't comprehend what Henn and many researchers are saying will continue to believe North Africans are modern day Arab. I WAS one of those people.

Most modern geneticist now agree that the so-called Arab invasion(7th century) was cultural.

But that happens when you rely on eyeballing anthropolgy.

But again you really missing the foundamental revelation from this new DNATribes study.
The seperation of West Asian(Turks) and Arabs. I not sure many here get it. But the study essentially supports Mike's and Dana point of view. "Arabs Tribes men" are essentially African. Turks arrival was during the Ottoman Empire.

The admixture level of Turks in Berbers is virtually absent. Essential Turks/Syrians/Iraqi etc are a different ethnic group cf to NAians even if they may look similar.


Quote by Lioness:
But even the common layman knows North Africa is largely Arab at present.
Only xyyman is tripping. When he passes the doobie don't inhale, it's laced.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
We know that many of these people are "mixed" but when did that mixture take place?

As has been pointed out many times before most of that Mixture is historic (last 1500 years). So while it is true that there are populations in North Africa that are mixed it is not true that these are also the ORIGINAL populations of North Africa from before 3,000 years ago. Not by a long shot.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

And all populations in North Africa are not mixed and as you all noticed the DNA tribes definition of "NOrth Africa" is flawed to begin with. North Africa also includes Mali, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and Chad along with Egypt. But of course these clowns always try and limit North Africa to those regions North of the Sahara, which not coincidentally is the area of the MOST admixture and then try and extrapolate that to all the rest of the region they did not include as North Africa. [/QB]

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It's not flawed.

You are just talking semantics. Those other regions are defined as Sahelian.

Anytime a region is defined soembody can take issue with it and say the ensuing analysis is flawed.
The same question could be asked, why are West Africans separted from Horners. Why are Great Lakes Africans separated from Horners?
Why make any category?

The reason why is that the North Africans of today are primarily comprised of people with ancestry from outside of Africa.
-That cannot be said of the Sahelains:




^^^^ Unlike the modern primarily populations of the Mahgreb the Sahelians are primarily Tropical West African. In fact the North African contribution is lower than that of South African, Great Lakes, possibly even Indians

This is why Mali, Niger, Mauritania, Sudan and Chad are not grouped with largely admixted populations of the North.
This is reflected strongly in the genetics.

It makes sense.

The problem is not the regions. The problem is in the naming.

In my opinion as far as genetic analysis "North Africa" should not even be used. It leads to too much confusion.
The Sahel overlaps genetically more with West Africa than it does the Maghreb. The thing that distracts from this biology is the cultural religious continuity by Islam between the Sahel and the Maghreb.

Instead "The Maghreb Region" solves the problem.

If you take the Sahel, primarily indigenous Africans and lump them with Maghrebians and call it "North Africa" is that necessarily "pro-Africa" politcially ?
I would not be so sure of that, think about it.

The problem is where Egypt fits in (or doesn't fit in)

And Egypt should be a category unto itself and distinguished by to categories "Ancient Egypt" and "Modern Egypt"

I believe as far as genetic regions go there should be no "North Africa" That is too broad and people can't agree to it's dimensions

Maybe a better way to organize the macro genetic regions of Africa:

Maghreb (dry period)

Maghreb (green period)

Modern Egypt

Ancient Egypt/Sudan

Sahel

West Africa

Great Lakes

Horn

South Africa Bantu

South Africa Khoisan

_______________________

lioness productions
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

2nd- you are really confused. You started the Henn thread. Henn clearly stated that North Africans are NOT modern day Arabs. The illiterate ie those who can't comprehend what Henn and many researchers are saying will continue to believe North Africans are modern day Arab. I WAS one of those people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] First up, I gave up doobie before college.

2nd- you are really confused. You started the Henn thread. Henn clearly stated that North Africans are NOT modern day Arabs. The illiterate ie those who can't comprehend what Henn and many researchers are saying will continue to believe North Africans are modern day Arab. I WAS one of those people.

Most modern geneticist now agree that the so-called Arab invasion(7th century) was cultural.

But that happens when you rely on eyeballing anthropolgy.

But again you really missing the foundamental revelation from this new DNATribes study.
The seperation of West Asian(Turks) and Arabs. I not sure many here get it. But the study essentially supports Mike's and Dana point of view. "Arabs Tribes men" are essentially African. Turks arrival was during the Ottoman Empire.

The admixture level of Turks in Berbers is virtually absent. Essential Turks/Syrians/Iraqi etc are a different ethnic group cf to NAians even if they may look similar.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by The Explorer:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
“This uniqueness comes from the accumulation of new mutations (which is how researchers come to the conclusion that large portions of their genome bespeaks prehistoric admixture events). This, however, does not mean that those new mutations cannot be assigned affinity to pre-existing DNA from surrounding parent populations.”

---

The “accumulation of new mutations” is not sufficient to tell a person whether a haplotype is “prehistoric admixture” or not.

---

But you know the other requirements (that you speak of) are there as well, so why comment on what you presume I know, rather than acknowledging that the requirements are there, and commenting on how you're going to reconcile the fact that there is an inconsistency between what they indicate, and your beliefs regarding the ages of the admixture dates under discussion..?
 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Anyone who claims the Sahel is distinct from North Africa cant be taken seriously. North Africa includes the Sahel which is another way of saying the Sahara. North Africa is not simply the coastal portions of the African continent. They should call it Coastal North Africa if they want to subdivide it up like that, because that is NOT all of North Africa.

That is why I reject most of these European attempts to equate North Africa as non African. North Africa is African, with more admixture as you get closer to the coasts because of the fact that the Mediterranean has been a conduit for Non Africans to mix with populations closer to the coast. Not only that, but the Sahara desert causes most of North Africa to have very low population density, which means it is relatively easy for Non Africans to have a bigger genetic and physical impact than other places in the world.



https://dhs.stanford.edu/spatial-humanities/comparing-population-density-and-wikipedia-density-on-gis-day/
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] Anyone who claims the Sahel is distinct from North Africa cant be taken seriously. North Africa includes the Sahel which is another way of saying the Sahara. North Africa is not simply the coastal portions of the African continent. They should call it Coastal North Africa if they want to subdivide it up like that, because that is NOT all of North Africa.

That is why I reject most of these European attempts to equate North Africa as non African. North Africa is African, with more admixture as you get closer to the coasts because of the fact that the Mediterranean has been a conduit for Non Africans to mix with populations closer to the coast. Not only that, but the Sahara desert causes most of North Africa to have very low population density, which means it is relatively easy for Non Africans to have a bigger genetic and physical impact than other places in the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] Anyone who claims the Sahel is distinct from North Africa cant be taken seriously. North Africa includes the Sahel which is another way of saying the Sahara. North Africa is not simply the coastal portions of the African continent. They should call it Coastal North Africa if they want to subdivide it up like that, because that is NOT all of North Africa.

That is why I reject most of these European attempts to equate North Africa as non African. North Africa is African, with more admixture as you get closer to the coasts because of the fact that the Mediterranean has been a conduit for Non Africans to mix with populations closer to the coast. Not only that, but the Sahara desert causes most of North Africa to have very low population density, which means it is relatively easy for Non Africans to have a bigger genetic and physical impact than other places in the world.

---

__________________________________

Sahel:

Northern Senegal, southern Mauritania, central Mali, southern Algeria and Niger, central Chad, southern Sudan, northern South Sudan and Eritrea.

______________________________________

The question is

1) should the Sahel have it's own gentetic regional category?

2) If the Sahel should not have it's own genetic regional category
should the the Sahel be considered part of North Africa or part of Sub Saharan Africa?


___________________________________________________


My answer:

The Sahel is 85% sub Saharan African,
therefore IF it should not have it's own genetic regional category
then it should be part of Sub Saharan Africa and already overlaps

The Mahgreb is less than 20% Sub Saharan African

Therfore as per genetics if "North African" includes the Sahel then it is too broad and "North African" should not be used at all in genetic discussions of Africa.
Instead:

Maghreb

Sahel

should be used, problem solved.


___________________________________

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] Anyone who claims the Sahel is distinct from North Africa cant be taken seriously. North Africa includes the Sahel which is another way of saying the Sahara. North Africa is not simply the coastal portions of the African continent. They should call it Coastal North Africa if they want to subdivide it up like that, because that is NOT all of North Africa.

That is why I reject most of these European attempts to equate North Africa as non African. North Africa is African, with more admixture as you get closer to the coasts because of the fact that the Mediterranean has been a conduit for Non Africans to mix with populations closer to the coast. Not only that, but the Sahara desert causes most of North Africa to have very low population density, which means it is relatively easy for Non Africans to have a bigger genetic and physical impact than other places in the world.

---

__________________________________

Sahel:

Northern Senegal, southern Mauritania, central Mali, southern Algeria and Niger, central Chad, southern Sudan, northern South Sudan and Eritrea.

______________________________________

The question is

1) should the Sahel have it's own gentetic regional category?

2) If the Sahel should not have it's own genetic regional category
should the the Sahel be considered part of North Africa or part of Sub Saharan Africa?


___________________________________________________


My answer:

The Sahel is 85% sub Saharan African,
therefore IF it should not have it's own genetic regional category
then it should be part of Sub Saharan Africa and already overlaps

The Mahgreb is less than 20% Sub Saharan African

Therfore as per genetics if "North African" includes the Sahel then it is too broad and "North African" should not be used at all in genetic discussions of Africa.
Instead:

Maghreb

Sahel

should be used, problem solved.


___________________________________

---

You're completely beside the most important point. African people living in the North African countries (usually in the south) are not included in the DNA Tribes database and most DNA research/study database for that matter. Their samples were just not taken. They were ignored. For example, the Nubian people‎ living in Egypt, the Tibu and Dawada people living in Libya and the Gnawa people living in Morocco and Algeria (among other ethnic groups). Those people possibly lived *relatively* isolated from other African groups since at least the mid-late Holocene, so they may present some distinctive SNP values different from other black African groups (while sharing distinctive SNP with other African people of course).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] Anyone who claims the Sahel is distinct from North Africa cant be taken seriously. North Africa includes the Sahel which is another way of saying the Sahara. North Africa is not simply the coastal portions of the African continent. They should call it Coastal North Africa if they want to subdivide it up like that, because that is NOT all of North Africa.

That is why I reject most of these European attempts to equate North Africa as non African. North Africa is African, with more admixture as you get closer to the coasts because of the fact that the Mediterranean has been a conduit for Non Africans to mix with populations closer to the coast. Not only that, but the Sahara desert causes most of North Africa to have very low population density, which means it is relatively easy for Non Africans to have a bigger genetic and physical impact than other places in the world.

---

__________________________________

Sahel:

Northern Senegal, southern Mauritania, central Mali, southern Algeria and Niger, central Chad, southern Sudan, northern South Sudan and Eritrea.

______________________________________

The question is

1) should the Sahel have it's own gentetic regional category?

2) If the Sahel should not have it's own genetic regional category
should the the Sahel be considered part of North Africa or part of Sub Saharan Africa?


___________________________________________________


My answer:

The Sahel is 85% sub Saharan African,
therefore IF it should not have it's own genetic regional category
then it should be part of Sub Saharan Africa and already overlaps

The Mahgreb is less than 20% Sub Saharan African

Therfore as per genetics if "North African" includes the Sahel then it is too broad and "North African" should not be used at all in genetic discussions of Africa.
Instead:

Maghreb

Sahel

should be used, problem solved.


___________________________________

---

You're completely beside the most important point. African people living in the North African countries (usually in the south) are not included in the DNA Tribes database and other DNA research/study databases for that matter. Their samples were just not taken. They were ignored. For example, the Nubian people‎ living in Egypt, the Tibu and Dawada people living in Libya and the Gnawa people living in Morocco and Algeria (among other ethnic groups). Those people possibly lived *relatively* isolated from other African groups since at least the mid-late Holocene, so they may present some distinctive SNP values different from other black African groups (while sharing distinctive SNP with other African people of course).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

African people living in the North African countries (usually in the south) are not included in the DNA Tribes database and other DNA research/study databases for that matter. Their samples were just not taken. They were ignored. For example, the Nubian people‎ living in Egypt, the Tibu and Dawada people living in Libya and the Gnawa people living in Morocco and Algeria (among other ethnic groups). Those people possibly lived *relatively* isolated from other African groups since at least the mid-late Holocene, so they may present some distinctive SNP values different from other black African groups (while sharing distinctive SNP with other African people of course).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

African people living in the North African countries (usually in the south) are not included in the DNA Tribes database and other DNA research/study databases for that matter. Their samples were just not taken. They were ignored. For example, the Nubian people‎ living in Egypt, the Tibu and Dawada people living in Libya and the Gnawa people living in Morocco and Algeria (among other ethnic groups). Those people possibly lived *relatively* isolated from other African groups since at least the mid-late Holocene, so they may present some distinctive SNP values different from other black African groups (while sharing distinctive SNP with other African people of course).

---

Above. Is Gnawa a typo for Haratin here ?

Just a note that Maghrebi Gnawa are descendants
of West Africans who came from south of the Sahel
and north of the heavily forrested areas since the
last few hundred years. Gnawa denotes a non-Berber
speaking West African like the Bambara for instance.

---

Gnawa is not a typo and they are indigenous to the region. Probably migrate there before any back migration from Western Asia. DNA analysis (and anthropological studies) could help further this more.

Haratins are another African ethnic groups indigenous to the Morocco region.

It must be noted that both Gnawa and Haratine are names given to them by foreign people.

Don't be fooled by people who label any black African presence in North Africa as "sub-Saharan" or even West Africans or Sudanic when in fact it is indigenous to the region. Those are cheap muslim and eurocentric propaganda. Their links with other "sub-saharan Africans" (a misnomer obviously as Africans still live in and above the Sahara). Let me try it again. Their links with other black Africans (including the Haratins) probably date back from *at least* the late Pleistocene and early Holocene when Africans start occupying (again) the Sahara and North Africa during the green Sahara period. Some ancient African DNA presence (labeled 'sub-saharan' DNA presence) has been noted in Spain in addition with more modern "sub-saharan" African DNA.

As stated in the other thread, black Africans used to occupy Morocco (and Algeria obviously) a long time ago and left hundreds of rock art discovered by Susan Searight. That is much before Muhammad (the creator of the Muslim religion) was even born.

From the Atlas Mountain (Morocco):


Don't let the lack of information or information by muslim and 18th century eurocentrist sources fools you. Disinformation which trickle down to modern history books without anybody re-questioning it even in light of new archaeological and genetic evidences like the African rock art of the Moroccan Atlas Mountain.

Here's an interesting study:

quote:

---

Ancient local evolution of African mtDNA haplogroups in Tunisian Berber populations


Abstract

Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago . Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

African people living in the North African countries (usually in the south) are not included in the DNA Tribes database and other DNA research/study databases for that matter. Their samples were just not taken. They were ignored. For example, the Nubian people‎ living in Egypt, the Tibu and Dawada people living in Libya and the Gnawa people living in Morocco and Algeria (among other ethnic groups). Those people possibly lived *relatively* isolated from other African groups since at least the mid-late Holocene, so they may present some distinctive SNP values different from other black African groups (while sharing distinctive SNP with other African people of course).

---

Above. Is Gnawa a typo for Haratin here ?

Just a note that Maghrebi Gnawa are descendants
of West Africans who came from south of the Sahel
and north of the heavily forrested areas since the
last few hundred years. Gnawa denotes a non-Berber
speaking West African like the Bambara for instance.

---

Gnawa is not a typo and they are indigenous to the region. Probably migrate there before any back migration from Western Asia. DNA analysis (and anthropological studies) could help further this more.

Haratins are another African ethnic groups indigenous to the Morocco region.

It must be noted that both Gnawa and Haratine are names given to them by foreign people.

Don't be fooled by people who label any black African presence in North Africa as "sub-Saharan" or even West Africans or Sudanic when in fact it is indigenous to the region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

African people living in the North African countries (usually in the south) are not included in the DNA Tribes database and other DNA research/study databases for that matter. Their samples were just not taken. They were ignored. For example, the Nubian people‎ living in Egypt, the Tibu and Dawada people living in Libya and the Gnawa people living in Morocco and Algeria (among other ethnic groups). Those people possibly lived *relatively* isolated from other African groups since at least the mid-late Holocene, so they may present some distinctive SNP values different from other black African groups (while sharing distinctive SNP with other African people of course).

---

Above. Is Gnawa a typo for Haratin here ?

Just a note that Maghrebi Gnawa are descendants
of West Africans who came from south of the Sahel
and north of the heavily forrested areas since the
last few hundred years. Gnawa denotes a non-Berber
speaking West African like the Bambara for instance.

---

Gnawa is not a typo and they are indigenous to the region. Probably migrate there before any back migration from Western Asia. DNA analysis (and anthropological studies) could help further this more.

Haratins are another African ethnic groups indigenous to the Morocco region.

It must be noted that both Gnawa and Haratine are names given to them by foreign people.

Don't be fooled by people who label any black African presence in North Africa as "sub-Saharan" or even West Africans or Sudanic when in fact it is indigenous to the region.

---

I didn't start studying this stuff yesterday to
be fooled by Eurocentrics nor Afrocentrics and
I keep racially biased polemics out of assessment.
They cheapen the worth of writers who use them and
are only good for those who preach to the choir,
unable to stand academic stringency.

Haratin aren't limited to Moroccan. Haratin are
at base indigenous Saharans once reduced to
sharecroppers by incoming Maghrebi Africans.

Gnawa is a Berber word denoting "mute" and its
connotation is a foreign non-Berber speaker.
Gnawa have songs extolling their forced migration
into servitude northward across the Sahara desert.

Gnawa and Haratin are non-interchangeable terms.
While the one is "foreign" the other is native.


I know the differences and have written about the
indigenous coastal, pre-Sahara, and Saharan blacks (link)
who were definitely not Gnawa but contributers to
modern Berber speakers (Haratin and non-Haratin),
Songhai speaking, and Soninke speaking populations
of the Sahara and northward today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
Falasha is foreign and offensive and should never be used but Gnawa is... "foreign". lol

---

We heard you the first time. If you would know the story of Africa (and the rest of the world). You would know that many African ethnic group names are actually names given to them by foreigners (often other African ethnic groups). Even Berber can be viewed as pejorative. A name given to them by Romans, I think, meaning Barbarians. Some ethnic group names start as pejorative but lose their pejorative connotation with time. It's a bit surprising but many African ethnic groups didn't actually have names to define themselves. They defined themselves (not tribally but as human beings) with names meaning something like "humans", "people", in their language.
 

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Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
Quoting swenet:

"But you know the other requirements (that you speak of) are there as well, so why comment on what you presume I know, rather than acknowledging that the requirements are there, and commenting on how you're going to reconcile the fact that there is an inconsistency between what they indicate, and your beliefs regarding the ages of the admixture dates under discussion..?"

Don't have the foggiest idea of what this remark is trying to convey, save for the vague idea that I "presumed" something here. Reality quite simply, however, is that I merely set the record straight around your rather simple-minded and uninformed comment. Discussion of anything further, is simply more pointless nagging on your part.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
If setting the record straight means amnesia induced corrections that serve to self-comfort the narcissistic, then yeah, you've set the record straight al right.

In the real world, though, its squarely the result of your own failing mental faculties that you can't remember previous conversations a month ago, where my knowledge of these requirements have already been established.
 

---

Posted by The Explorer (Member # 14778) on :
 
cumbucket head, the difference between you and me is as clear as day and night: I corrected something that you actually posted, here and now, in this very thread. You come back at me with emotional outburst of some crackpot neuro-diagnosis laced with silly unsophisticated insults.

If you wish to now address me on some past discussion I suggest you post your reaction in said topic, and if I happen to notice it, I'll chime in as I see fit. Understand?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
The people in Morocco who some call gnawa aka Haratin refers to people with Sahelian ancestry.

What DNATribes defines as "North Africa" is more properly defined as the Maghreb.

The people in Morocco who some call gnawa aka Haratin are descendants of the Songhai Empire which was conquered by Moorish berber, Moroccan sultan Ahmed el-Mansour in 1591

Songhai Empire


Saadi dynasty of Morocco ( Ahmed el-Mansour)


___________________________________________________

Why are most Magrebians lighter skinned than most Sahelians?

there are two explantions it could be either or both

1) with a few small exceptions people who live further from the equator are darker skinned than people who live closer to the equator, hense as an example Khoisans are lighter than most Zairians.

2) Morocco like other countries of the Maghreb is located at the Norther border of Africa and has had a history of foreign occupations
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The people in Morocco who some call gnawa aka Haratin refers to people with Sahelian ancestry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beyoku

TO get past this issue Berbers must understand and accept their mixed African status. Genetics is pretty damn clear on where "Berber" people ultimately "Come From". From what I have seen they are unwilling to accept this. Capsian in Kenya is older than that in North Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alTakruri:

I wonder if it's possible to understand anything
about Capsian cultural origins without placing it
in some kind of referential context.

You have placed it in North Africa and after the
misnomered "Ibero-Maurusian" culture and so far
so good about that.

But do readers know the traits that define this
culture, or its geographic boundaries, how long it
endured from its rough beginning to ending dates,
what cultures were in its proximity and what if any
interaction happened between them?

Then, in consideration of the above, was there
a "Capsian people" sharing a general phenotype
differentiating them from surrounding peoples?

For me it's impossible to speak of Capsian origins
whether or not they are North African without really
knowing the above and also what is considered North
Africa (i.e., the whole S. Med coast, the Maghreb only,
the littoral to the pre-Sahara or on into the Sahara,
everywher north of say the equator, etc.).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The people in Morocco who some call gnawa aka Haratin refers to people with Sahelian ancestry.

---

Gnawa are not Haratine even I agree with Tukuler on that point. They both part of different black Africans ethnic groups indigenous to North Africa and Morocco. Tukuler sees the Gnawa as more recent. The precise relationship between all those people can be further clarified with proper DNA study and further anthropological research.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The people in Morocco who some call gnawa aka Haratin refers to people with Sahelian ancestry.

---

Gnawa are not Haratine even I agree with Tukuler on that point. They both part of different black Africans ethnic groups indigenous to North Africa and Morocco. Tukuler sees the Gnawa as more recent. The precise relationship between all those people can be further clarified with proper DNA study and further anthropological research.

---

either way they both originate from the Sahel rather than the Maghreb

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The people in Morocco who some call gnawa aka Haratin refers to people with Sahelian ancestry.

---

Gnawa are not Haratine even I agree with Tukuler on that point. They both part of different black Africans ethnic groups indigenous to North Africa and Morocco. Tukuler sees the Gnawa as more recent. The precise relationship between all those people can be further clarified with proper DNA study and further anthropological research.

---

either way they both originate from the Sahel rather than the Maghreb

---

According to you maybe. IMO, those people are indigenous to North Africa and Morocco the same way Europeans are indigenous to Europe and Natives Americans are indigenous to America. They were part of the first people along with other black African ethnic groups to inhabit North Africa and Morocco.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Native Americans are technically migrants from Asia before the Americas were populated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Native Americans are technically migrants from Asia before the Americas were populated.

---

Technically the whole world (beside where modern human originate) including the Sahel receive migrants from elsewhere. What you're saying doesn't mean anything. Usually we attribute the label of natives and indigenous to the first people who populated a region.

The Songhai empire is relatively very recent and don't have anything to do with any of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
Lioness doesn't think your analogy with North American Indians is applicable because to him there's no such thing as ancient black Africans in North Africa, the place was a melting pot from the start. He thinks this of AE too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
Lioness doesn't think your analogy with North American Indians is applicable because to him there's no such thing as ancient black Africans in North Africa, the place was a melting pot from the start. He thinks this of AE too.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by

For the obvious reason that people are what you might call "naive realists". They go mainly on what they see. I was recently at the airport at Casa Blanca, Morocco spending a good 10 hours there. I was able to observe the Moroccan population thusly--including cleaners working at the airport. For those who live in the Americas, Moroccans are like the people of Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic. They are easily distinguishable from European tourists and generally from the darker African populations from further South--even though they might share DNA haplogroup affinities.

---

quote:

---

Isaiah 20:4 So shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptians prisoners, and the Ethiopians captives, young and old, naked and barefoot, even with their buttocks uncovered, to the shame of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

The Mahgreb has significant Arabian contribution

---

The so-called Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural. And those Arabs from Arabia (light and dark-skinned) who did come into North Africa would be even more "foreign" to Morocco and North Africa than Sahelians.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Yo. I am NOT putting faith in DNATribes. I am saying their current(2013) classification makes more sense. And they have moved away from their old classification and labels. The term Sahara-Arab is about right. Why? Because of this.


Saharan and SSA migrants into South Arabia.

Where some of us is getting confused, the migration was into Arabia and not the otherway around. As I pointed out in another thread if the migration was into the Sahara region. The West Asian(Turkish) SNP would have migrated along with Sahara-Arabia SNPs. But what we see is a clear pattern of ALL African(Saharan/SSA/NEast) into Arabia into Persia.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I think Xyman puts too much faith in DNATribes for them to say they are "coming around". Such organizations are still plagued with the usual bias.

As for the Sahel, it's funny how even among the most "negroid" populations of the Sahel region don't usually get lumped in with North Africans or Eurasians even though DNA studies show they do. I am automatically reminded of Tishkoff study of the Dogon.

---

 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
Africans migrating into Arabia? Impossible! Mary, Mindless/Sweetie whats the meaning of this?
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Note. This pattern existed in the 1500's. According to 23andme, SSA lineage, E1b1a, existed in the Arabia, Qatar AND PERSIA. This again corraborates DNATribes current disclosure.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Sub-Saharans in Arabia and Persia.


Saharans in Arabia and Persia.


So yes, There were arabs and black Persians circa >1500ya

See the pattern. DNATribes is on point.

Any questions???
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
[QB]

quote:

---

The Mahgreb has significant Arabian contribution

---

The so-called Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural.

---

that's bullshyt,

stop being a parrot, Do your own research than parroting other posters


J Distrubution

The Maghreb had signifcant waves of Arabian migration, this is the region DNATribes is talking about and it is demonstarted by DNA


" Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural"

^^^^ this applies to the Sahel not the Maghreb


.
 

---

Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I think Xyman puts too much faith in DNATribes for them to say they are "coming around". Such organizations are still plagued with the usual bias.

As for the Sahel, it's funny how even among the most "negroid" populations of the Sahel region don't usually get lumped in with North Africans or Eurasians even though DNA studies show they do. I am automatically reminded of Tishkoff study of the Dogon.

---

^^And reputed "North African" sampling is too often
a very limited coastal slice, excluding numerous areas
credible geographers consider to be North African,
some pieces of which are located below the Sahara.




 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 





 

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
^ But Troll posts oversize charts and articles trying to make you think he is smart and you are supposed to guess what his point of view is. In actuality he is uncertain and is hiding behind articles and maps, it's a bluff game

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
[QB]

quote:

---

The Mahgreb has significant Arabian contribution

---

The so-called Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural.

---

that's bullshyt,

stop being a parrot, Do your own research than parroting other posters


J Distrubution

The Maghreb had signifcant waves of Arabian migration, this is the region DNATribes is talking about and it is demonstarted by DNA


" Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural"

^^^^ this applies to the Sahel not the Maghreb


.

---

LOL Jackass I'm not disagreeing with you. Initially the so-called Arab conquest was largely cultural, North African groups for the most part like the Berbers were Arabised. Today they are still basically an Arabised African group. Same for "Arabs" in places like Sudan or Zanzibar. Of course the significant "waves" came later. Not denying that. Try to develop your comprehension skills.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@Lioness

So…You are getting better at this.


OK, good come back. That is the problem with these genetic studies and who are the authors. They conflict or contradict each other. That is why I said WHOEVER author these papers should be noted. Remember Malmstrom, Barbujani etc are in the camp of “modern Europeans are NOT indigenous to Europe”. While Achilli, Toronni etc are in the camp of “modern Europeans ARE indigenous to Europe”. Perireira and Antonini etc flip-flop. Plus there are new researchers emerging on the scene from many different countries. Everyone has the tools now except for Africa, I don’t considered South Africa black owned. When you read enough of these you begin to know who is who and what spin they bring to the discussion.

But based upon CURRENT(2013) and real time data collected and the most up-to-date sampling done by DNATribes this table holds true, Africans Part 4. STR analysis supports this view also. South Arabians are a blend of Saharans/SSA/NEAfricans …….and Turks(WAsians) while North Africans are essentially pure Africans.

Maybe you can start a thread on nrY Haplogroup J. From what I read on male-hg-J it can be either be African or South Arabian.. Which means that deep red-spot west of the Red Sea is the point of origin and NOT the one in south Arabia. Which would make SOUTH ARABIANS TRANSPLANTED AFRICANS ADMIXED WITH TURKS. But again what is the point. These people look very similar. South Arabia and the Sahara have the same environmental conditions thus they SHOULD look very similar. ie Dark Brown/Black people with high nose, similar to South Asian Indians.. But only the Dark Brown/Black Saharans are indigenous Africa.

Similarly Melanesians, Dravidians and Andaman Islanders etc all look the same. Why….they inhabit similar environment.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Correction to : ” These people look very similar”. Since I have never seen them, delete that remark. But “same environmental conditions thus they SHOULD look very similar” still stands.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:

quote:

---

The Mahgreb has significant Arabian contribution

---

The so-called Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural. And those Arabs from Arabia (light and dark-skinned) who did come into North Africa would be even more "foreign" to Morocco and North Africa than Sahelians.

---

Much of the so-called "Arab" contribution to the Maghreb and Al-Andalus was comprised of Arabized Syrians (from the Levant). The "Arabian" contribution of "the Arabs" consisted of dark-skinned peoples as dark as the Moors, and darker according to dnatribes and other analyses.

According to the book, Ibn Garcia's Shuubiyya Letter, a relatively recent scholarly work - “In order to put an end to the chaotic situation in al-Andalus, the Umayyad Caliph sent a large body of Arab troops, often referred to as Syrians, to the Maghreb under the command of Balj b. Bishr, al Qushayri. A conglomeration of Berber tribes in 123/741 defeated this army. In the words of the Latin Chronicle of 754, the course of this battle was also influenced by the FRIGHTENING appearance of the Berbers. It reads:

'They [i.e. the Syrian Arabs] decided on their own initiative to hasten to the sea, crossing the territory of the Moors to attack Tangiers with the Swords. But the army of the Moors, realizing this immediately burst forth from the mountains to the battle naked girded only with loin-cloths covering their shameful parts. When they joined with each other in battle at the Nava river, the Egyptian horses immediately recoiled in flight, as the Moors on their beautiful horses revealed their repulsive colour and gnashed their white teeth. Despairing, they launched another attack, the Arab cavalry again instantly recoiled due to the colour of the Moors’ skin.'” (Goran Larsson, 2003, p. 71)


The "Arab" people mentioned in this 8th century Mozarabic chronicle were actually Syrians. Syrians and Arabs were undoubtedly still considered two different people in that era. The Arabian element came in great numbers only during the Sulaym/Hilal or Hawazin invasions of the 10th to 11th century. The latter who were truly Arabs, and not just Arabized, were black, like the Berbers of that era, and like many modern Sudanese.

That we know from the Syrian and Kurdish documenters themselves.


The modern day Maghrebis have been both Berberized and Arabized (Syrianized). Most importantly however modern Arabia in the same latitudes as northern Africa has been genetically Syrianized much like Egypt - particularly within the last 5 centuries. That is why they have much in common genetically with the people of the Levant.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
North Africans are essentially pure Africans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by

---

The current population of the Mahgreb on average is not essentially pure African.

dana do you agree with this statement?

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

DNA tribes assessment looks right on target to me. It is a reflection of what has occurred historically in terms of population replacement.

The fact that they even picked up a lot of the East Asian (Turkish/Mongol) component in modern Egyptians is particularly impressive.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
[qb] [QUOTE]The Mahgreb has significant Arabian contribution

---

The so-called Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural. And those Arabs from Arabia (light and dark-skinned) who did come into North Africa would be even more "foreign" to Morocco and North Africa than Sahelians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Btw: You do realize we are squabbling over a few miles. One mile down the road the label is “Eurasian/Arab” and one mile up one it is “African.”—in this case “one mile “is across the water.- if I was a betting man I would bet they look the same….at least in those days. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


Btw: You do realize we are squabbling over a few miles. One mile down the road the label is “Eurasian/Arab” and one mile up one it is “African.”—in this case “one mile “is across the water.- if I was a betting man I would bet they look the same….at least in those days.

---

this is what happens when you don't know or ignore the history.
Many of the migrations came from the Levant into the Maghreb rather than from Spain even though Spain is closer to Morocco Tunisia and Algeria [/QB]

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] What are you talking about? I am saying that most of the migration was FROM Africa TO Europe and Arabia. That is why I agree with DNATribes data.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
[qb] [QUOTE]The Mahgreb has significant Arabian contribution

---

The so-called Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural. And those Arabs from Arabia (light and dark-skinned) who did come into North Africa would be even more "foreign" to Morocco and North Africa than Sahelians.

---

I said, "Much of the so-called "Arab" contribution to the Maghreb and Al-Andalus was comprised of Arabized Syrians (from the Levant). The "Arabian" contribution of "the Arabs" consisted of dark-skinned peoples as dark as the Moors, and darker according to dnatribes and other analyses." That was off the mark.

I meant to say "Much of the so-called "Arab" contribution to the Maghreb and Al-Andalus was comprised of Arabized Syrians (from the Levant) according to dnatribes and other analyses."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeingadickswallower:

Africans migrating into Arabia? Impossible! Mary, Mindless/Sweetie whats the meaning of this?

---

Nobody denies Africans migrating into Arabia since it is right next door to Africa. Although some still doubt historical realities like the Holocaust. LOL

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Sub-Saharans in Arabia and Persia.


Saharans in Arabia and Persia.


So yes, There were arabs and black Persians circa >1500ya

See the pattern. DNATribes is on point.

Any questions???

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass:
that's bullshyt,

stop being a parrot, Do your own research than parroting other posters


J Distrubution

The Maghreb had signifcant waves of Arabian migration, this is the region DNATribes is talking about and it is demonstarted by DNA


" Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural"

^^^^ this applies to the Sahel not the Maghreb

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] You tell me…this is your expertise… along with Sage/Jari etc …seems like Lioness know a thing or two about the history also. But the authors are saying the Shammar are Africans or at least carry SSA lineage. You are saying they are from Syria and areas further north and they are NOT true Shammars. If both are true there is only one conclusion.

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Shammar

The tribe of Shammar (Arabic: شمّر "Šammar") is one of the largest tribes of Nejd, Saudi Arabia, with an estimated 3 million members in Iraq, over 1.5 million in Saudi Arabia (concentrated in Ha'il), a Kuwaiti population (centered in Al Jahra) of around 100,000, a Syrian population is thought to exceed 0.5 million along with unknown number in Jordan.In its "golden age", around 1850, the tribe ruled much of central and northern Arabia from Riyadh to the frontiers of Syria and the vast area known as Al Jazira in northern Iraq.

The Shammar are an Arabian Bedouin tribe. the tribe once ruled most of Arabia, and they had a state known as Jebal Shammar in Northern Arabia under quasi-independence however there loyalty to the Ottoman Empire was unquestioned. Unlike other Arabians tribes the Shammar did not partake in the Arab revolt, but wanted to crush it. The Sauds and the British would force the Shammar to be expelled from their ancient homeland into what is now Iraq. Today 40% of the Shammar tribe lives in Iraq, and made Tikrit and Mosul to be their homeland. Always distinguished by their noses, eyes and small built and often to this day keep the nomadic lifestyle of their ancestors. The Toga clan of the Shammar who settled in the Southern parts of Iraq adopted Shia Islam. Today there are still blood links and relationships between these two groups. During the Baathist times the Shammar faced increasing marginalization despite they were mostly Sunnis and of Arab origins, this was because their nomadic culture was seen to be a hindrance to modernization.

genetic study of kuwait bedouin tribes the shammar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)

The Shammar are a tribal confederation made up of three main branches: the Abdah, the Aslam, and the Zoba. The modern Qabila of Shammar are descendants of the Tayy tribe of Yemen. The earliest non-Arab sources refer to Arabs as Taits, thought of as referring to the Tayy, as Ayas ibn Quasiba, a ruler of pre-Islamic Iraq, had contact with Persian culture. Other historians locate Shammar's origin in Ghasinides and Manatherides] of Hira (near Kufa), and then immigrating from the Fertile Crescent to northern Saudi Arabia. This may be true, due to the genetic similarities between the residents of Saudi Arabia and the Shammar.
Today, most members of the Shammar live in Saudi Arabia and Iraq, and some sections settled in Syria and Jordan



Hadjr Abu Wuded (middle), Sheikh of the Feddaga Shammar, 1911 (Oppenheim)




Picture was taken in 1925 of man from the Shammar Bedouin tribe in the southwest portion of iraq, with an Asiatic Cheetah and a cub (Fahd Sayyad or Fahd Alrabi) . (Al Rashid)Shammar tribe ruled almost all arabia and part of iraq-- bedouins used the Asiatic Cheetah for hunt and in History the Most Famous who used Asiatic Cheetah to hunt was the Abbasid Caliph

The Shammar

The Shammar, the second largest bedouin group of Arabia, are Southern Arabs (Tai) with roots in Yemen. They were first mentioned in the 14th century. Their home was the Djebel Shammar in Northern Saudi Arabia. Like the Aneze a large part of the Shammar migrated towards the North in the 17th century under the leadership of al-Jerba, but first only as far as today´s Southern Iraq. They were forced to cross the Euphrates in 1800 by the Wahhabite attacks and could later be found as far north as Mosul. The Northern Shammar ruled the Jezireh, the land between Euphrates and Tigris and were divided between the East-Shammar around Ferhan and the West-Shammar around Fares (see below). Today the Northern Shammar in Iraq are also called Shammar al Jerba and are Sunni. The southern branch of the Iraqi Shammar are called Shammar Toga and belong to the Shiits.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djeshit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness:
that's bullshyt,

stop being a parrot, Do your own research than parroting other posters


J Distrubution

The Maghreb had signifcant waves of Arabian migration, this is the region DNATribes is talking about and it is demonstarted by DNA


" Arab conquest at that time was largely cultural"

^^^^ this applies to the Sahel not the Maghreb

---

Now, now, there's no need for profanity. I should remind you that the map above shows the presence of lineages of hg J clade in general. There are three main types-- underived J*, J1 and J2 associated with Africa. J* is the oldest and though its highest frequency is in Socotra Island it is also present in the Horn along with J1 whose highest frequency in Africa is in Sudan. Both PREDATE the 'Arab' language and ethnicity let alone Arab-Islamic invasion. It is J2 that is associated with the Arab-Islamic invasion of Africa and it is largely found in North Africa proper from Egypt to the Maghreb. Mind you, there are also forms of J2 found to the east of Arabia in Iran, Central Asia, and India that also predate 'Arabs' and is associated with Neolithic dispersions.

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Haplogroup J2 is defined by the M172 marker. Spread of Y-DNA Haplogroup J2: J2 Distribution


__________________________________________________

_______________________JP 209 ___________________


________________________J1 M267_____________________

Haplogroup J1 is defined by the M267 marker. Spread of Y-DNA Haplogroup J1




 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869035/

(excerpt to follow)



Genetic structure of nomadic Bedouin from Kuwait

Introduction
Kuwait lies in the Arabian Peninsula at the head of the Persian Gulf. Although it is located near a possible migration route out of Africa that may have been used over 50 000 years ago (Jobling et al., 2004), such early events appear to have had little impact on the current populations of Kuwait and the first known settlement dates only to the 3rd Century BCE when the Ancient Greeks colonized the island of Failaka under Alexander the Great. Historians believe the current settlement was established between the late 16th and 18th Centuries CE (Dickson, 1956). The population of Kuwait is divided into two main groups: townspeople and Bedouin tribal groups (ﻗﺒﺎﺋﻞ Qaba’il) with affiliations to their “cousins” (وﻟﺪ ﻋﻢ wild ’am) who inhabit other parts of the Arabian Peninsula. The Bedouin are not geographically isolated from each other and are traditionally nomadic, moving from one region to another seeking pasture for their herds to graze and water for survival (Dickson, 1967). The Bedouin conventionally claim descent from two main lineages: from Adnan son of Ishmael—the Adnani lineage—or from Qahtan (or Joktan)—the Qahtani (or Joktani) lineage.

We wished to investigate the genetic structure of the Kuwaiti Bedouin and consider how they compare with neighboring populations, what the genetic consequences of their traditional lifestyle might be, and whether the social lineages that identify their descent groups are also reflected in their genetic lineages.

The non-recombining part of the Y chromosome was chosen for analysis. Its high levels of population differentiation—a consequence of its low effective population size and, sometimes, of patrilocality—make it generally highly informative regarding genetic structure and differentiation (Jobling and Tyler-Smith, 2003). In addition, its strict paternal inheritance allows comparisons to be made between traditional male-line descent groups and observed male-line genetic structures. It is a single locus, however, and conclusions based on it may not be representative of the rest of the genome. We therefore complemented the Y-chromosome analysis with that of a widely-used panel of autosomal STRs (Collins et al., 2004).

Samples for DNA analysis were collected from volunteers from the Adnani tribes of Al-Aniza, Mutran and Awazim (a Suluba tribe), and the Qahtani tribes of Ajman, Shimar and Murrah. This selection is representative of the most prominent tribes of Adnani and Qahtani lineages of Arabia. Results from the sample were compared with data from other populations derived from the literature.

Discussion
Although previous studies have investigated classical genetic (Singh Sawhney et al., 1984; Al-Hilli, 1985; Al-Bustan et al., 2002) and molecular (Al-Nassar et al., 1981; al-Nassar et al., 1995; al-Nassar et al., 1996; Sebetan and Hajar, 1998) markers, including Y-chromosomal markers (Nebel et al., 2001) in Bedouin populations, and one Bedouin sample from Israel is present in the HGDP panel (Cann et al., 2002), the Kuwaiti Bedouin have thus far been little-studied. They share some Y-chromosomal features with the Negev Bedouins (Nebel et al., 2001): a high frequency of haplogroup J1 and low STR diversity within it, but none of the Kuwaiti individuals sampled carries the Bedouin Modal Hapolotype and thus their recent genetic history is distinct. Four main conclusions now emerge from our work:

First, the Kuwaiti Bedouin populations resemble their geographical neighbors. The autosomal markers used in this study were chosen for their ability to discriminate between individuals within any population, and this property, together with their small number, lead to high levels of noise when they are used to compare populations. Nevertheless, they reveal the genetic relationships between the Bedouin and other populations from the Arabian Peninsula (Figure 1), as expected from our understanding of the history of the region. The same conclusion is obtained with Y-chromosomal markers (Figure 1).

Second, the Bedouin exhibit evidence of small effective population sizes and substantial genetic drift. This is reflected in the low within-population diversity values for Y-chromosomal loci, and the low estimates of effective population size with BATWING; note that the latter values are estimates of the size when growth began—i.e. ~3-9000 years ago— and so are exceptionally low. Genetic drift leads to large distances between populations and these are seen both in the autosomal analyses—most marked for the Aniza (Figure 1a)—and the Y-chromosomal analyses (Figure 1). Again, these are exactly the genetic consequences expected from their lifestyle as small groups of desert-dwellers.

Third, no subdivision was seen according to the traditional Adnani and Qahtani lineages. This is illustrated by the lack of STRUCTURE grouping into more than one cluster (Table 1), interspersion of populations belonging to the traditional lineages in the autosomal and Y-chromosomal MDS plots ( Figure 1), and lack of distinction between the lineages in the AMOVA analyses (Table 4). This finding is contrary to historical and socio-cultural expectations, and could be explained in a number of ways. For example, a common genetic pattern could have been established in an ancestral population and retained by the two groups; alternatively, there could have been sufficient gene flow between the tribes to prevent genetic differences building up; or each individual population could have diverged to such an extent that ancient relationships have been obscured. This finding is also supported by the haplotype sharing between many of the populations visualised in the network (Figure 2).

Fourth, despite not supporting the traditional binary subdivision of the Bedouin populations, the genetic data nevertheless provide considerable insights into their genetic history. The Ajman stood out in the Y-chromosomal analyses as outliers in the MDS plots (Figure 1), from their zero haplogroup and low haplotype diversity (Table 3), and from the population-specificty of their haplotypes in the network (Figure 2). A potential explanation for these findings could be the high status of the Ajman in the Bedouin social hierarchy and lack of mixing with other populations (Dickson, 1967). To this day, the Ajman tribe is known for its zealous view of consanguineous marriage and tribal relations.

The Ajman contrast with the Aniza, who show the highest diversity among the Bedouin, with six haplogroups detected (Table 3). This observation fits several aspects of their history. Their traditional territory spanned a very wide geographical area. Their first mention in history was before the initiation of Islam where they were found in the Najd region of modern Saudi Arabia. From the start of Islam and through to the Ottoman era this tribe, via conquest and raiding, extended over all of Saudi Arabia, Syria, and North towards Iraqi Kurdistan and Jordan (Dickson, 1956). Slavery among the chieftains was a sign of power and wealth. Aniza tribes like those of Banu-Hilal and Banu Sulaym are believed to have participated in the conquest of North Africa in the 11th century CE (Abun-Nasr, 1987), possibly leading to the introduction of E-M78 chromosomes. Between the Umayyad and the Abbasid Empires, many slaves were brought from Iberia, especially Cordoba and Andalusia (Bassaam, 1977). Furthermore, envoys of the British Empire to the Persian Gulf and the Middle East between the early 19th and early 20th centuries CE, mention in their memoirs the enslaving of Georgians, Armenians and Circassians (Philby, 1923). These slaves were naturalized and given tribal affiliations under slavery abolishment treaties signed between the tribal chieftains—or emirs—and the envoys of the British Empire. This could be a reason for the presence of R1b1 and G2* Y chromosomes.

The Awazim stand out because of their high frequency of haplogroup E-M123 (24.3 %), the highest yet reported in any population. The highest frequency reported previously (23.5 %) was in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al., 2004). The Awazim also showed the presence of haplogroup R2 (R-M124), characteristic of South Asia (Sengupta et al., 2006). There may be a possible link to the Roma (‘Gypsy’) migrations. It has also been proposed that the Awazim may have originated from the Caucasus—also consistent with the theory of “Suluba” (Bell and Richmond, 1937). The presence of markers M123 and M124 may also suggest that slaves brought before the initiation of Islam and after the passing of the four Caliph eras (Lewis, 1990) have been naturalized within these tribes—perhaps when slavery was abolished.

The Shimar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3 %) and R1a1 (at 42.8 %)— with a small percentage of G2 (4.76 %). A historical explanation could be that the Shimar trace their origins to two regions: Iraq (Philby, 1923) and Saudi Arabia. The Shimar resided in northern Najd—currently in Saudi Arabia—after their migration during pre-Islamic times from Taye’ in Yemen. Their migration to the North into Iraq ended during the 17th Century CE (Subahai, 1996; Khuraysi, 1998; Williamson and Basri, 1999). As they settled in Iraq, the Shimar gave up nomadism and became urbanized in towns and cities—most notably in Mosul (Khuraysi, 1998). It is said that the Shimar are now of two main antecedents—Iraqi Shimar and Saudi Shimar—and each refers to itself as “the Noble Tribe” (personal communication, Shimar of Kuwait). The haplogroup R1a1-M17 is found at substantial frequency in Iraq, so limited gene flow or subsequent drift (or both) could account for its presence in the Shimar— although later migrations, slavery and trade provide alternative explanations.

In all, except for the lack of subdivision into Adnani and Qahtani lineages, the genetic data fit remarkably well with the expectations for small nomadic groups in the Arabian Peninsula, and provide independent support for many aspects of the traditional histories of these populations.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Instead of spamming the board with study, bold the section of interest.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I try to hold my tongue with you but you are really testing my patience. You have a knack for talking without thinking...or in this case reading. The sections are bolded. It is up to you now to read more...quote from previous post


prehistoric means....pre-historic....>3000bc?

======we do not found the strong sexual bias proposed by other authors for Arabian populations and attributed to the peculiarities of the recent slave-trade [12,36]. Without dismissing the role mediated by slavery, the geographical distribution of these sub-Saharan African lineages in the Arabian Peninsula seems to indicate a prehistoric entrance of a noticeable portion of these lineages=====

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]But isn't the presence of E1b1a in Arabia and Persia tied to Medieval slave trade??! If you are referring to much more ancient and voluntary migrations of Africans into Arabia, I thought the lineages are largely E1b1b as well as even older E2?? As for 'Black Persians', they were supposedly the indigenous Elamites.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
Instead of spamming the board with study, bold the section of interest.

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Because trolls "post oversize charts and articles trying to make you think he is smart and you are supposed to guess what his point of view is. In actuality he is uncertain and is hiding behind articles and maps, it's a bluff game" - Lioness
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Since I have never been to Egypt..although my brother(sibing) has ...I can make a scientific guess. BTW - he says the people in Cairo are lighter complexioned than the people further South. But he is an unashamed AfroCentric.

I am a little more objective. Which means i piss him off sometimes. Based upon the DNATribes data Africa Part 4. The modern Egyptians and Moroccan Jews are the only Ethnic group whose SNP seems out of place in North Africa.

Based upon the ecological niche. They are suppose to be dark/black/skin Near Tropical limbed/curly or kinky or straight hair. Black eyes. black hair(no blondes). everted lips(based upon statues and MOST pics). Long headed. Like most modern Nubians and North Sudanese.


on't know these people

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
this question is for xyyman please let him answer it first.


xyyman, is the current population of Egypt on average essentially pure African?


.

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
Lioness doesnt answer questions but insists on others answering his. lol
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
[ Based upon the DNATribes data Africa Part 4. The modern Egyptians and Moroccan Jews are the only Ethnic group whose SNP seems out of place in North Africa.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lamin:
For the obvious reason that people are what you might call "naive realists". They go mainly on what they see. I was recently at the airport at Casa Blanca, Morocco spending a good 10 hours there. I was able to observe the Moroccan population thusly--including cleaners working at the airport. For those who live in the Americas, Moroccans are like the people of Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic. They are easily distinguishable from European tourists and generally from the darker African populations from further South--even though they might share DNA haplogroup affinities.

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The Moroccans of today and much of the "Arab world" of today is the precursor for the mixed ethnic populations of Hispanic America. They represent the same sort of blend of European and African populations as seen in North Africa and Spain. The Spanish introduced Moorish culture to the Americas and it is most strongly felt in South and Central America but also in North America, most particularly in California, with its Spanish Moorish style architecture. Unfortunately most of the discussion of Moorish populations in the United States centers around African American groups and not the Spanish cultures of America, which has strong elements of African and Islamic Moorish culture.
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
For one, I don't work with any study or map that doesn't involve local contributions. Doing otherwise is ridiculous as there's no way to assess the size of the external contribution if we don't know the size of the local contribution.

Here's the 2 tables in the lastest study that does include local contributions as well as foreign contribution.




Taken from:
http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-snp-admixture-2013-02-11.pdf

9 Continental Zone admixture

For one, the nomenclature of the 9 Continental Zone admixture is horrible and very insulting for the people who actually live in the Sahara which are mainly black African people. People who share most ancestry with people they would label "sub-Saharan". North African people of "Arabian" origin mostly live along the coast just above the Sahara. So the Saharan-Arabia category is a GROSS misnomer. But if we rename it the "North African-Arabia" category instead (hoping they eventually take samples of indigenous African people actually IN the Sahara in North African country and work on their map representation) it seems to show what we already know, that coastal North Africans mainly share genetic affinity with people from Arabia. They also share genetic affinity with people labelled 'sub-sahara'. Western coastal North Africans with Morocco and South Morocco in particular share more ancestry with the labelled 'Sub-Saharan' population than the Coastal Egyptian included in the samples. As usual, it's hard to gage if it's because people are admixed or if the population is more cosmopolitan.

21 World Regions Admixture

The nomenclature for the 21 Region map is ok as North African are actually labelled North African but still separate category should be created for indigenous black African people living in North African country. That is their samples should be taken and a category should be named after them (jointly or separately depending on the DNA clustering results). Here, 'North African' form their own cluster separate from 'Arabian' which is more preponderant in the western part of North Africa (may be just a sample bias effect). Instead of 'North African' it could easily be label 'Maghrebi' instead. For example, Egyptian (Egypt 1, Egypt 2) have a lower level of this "North African/Maghrebi" ancestry and a larger 'Arabian', 'Horn of Africa' and 'Eastern Mediterranean' component in their population compared to lets say people from Morocco. It's hard to gage if it's because people are admixed on an individual level or if the population is more cosmopolitan.

General assessment

While, as said above, it's hard to know if it's because people are admixed or if the population is more cosmopolitan. Maybe somebody else have more information about those studies. We know for sure there's many ethnic groups living in North Africa some of Sub-Saharan ancestry. So a 10% "Sub-Saharan" ancestry can be reflective of that (that is 10% of people are of Sub-Saharan ancestry) or reflective of a 10% "Sub-Sahran" admixture in the individuals in the sample set. Since on this forum we are mostly interested into ancient population substructure and not modern population substructure (which include such things as diaspora, admixture, foreign migrants, etc), it's an important question for us.

Coastal North African people seem to share a lot of ancestry with people from the Near East (Arabian, Mesopotamian, East Mediterranean). As well as some ancestry with Sub-Saharan and Horn Africans.

DNA Tribes don't help to reduce the confusion by not dividing their North African samples into ethnic groups (as they do for America or the rest of Africa).

Let's take Egypt for example. They have Egypt 1 and Egypt 2. That doesn't mean anything as Egyptian people are composed of people from many different ethnic origin with a different sets of alleles. In North America, they have taken good care of separating samples from European people and Native descent. Usually, in Africa in general they seem to take samples from many different ethnic groups as well (while many many are ignored). They don't just take a sample call Nigeria and be done with it. As Nigeria is composed of many different ethnic groups of different origin and ancestry.

For example, Egypt is composed of Beja, Bedouin, Berber, Nubian, Siwi, Arabian, Greeks, Italians.

If you put all those people of different origin (different SNP) into a blender and label those Egypt 1 and Egypt 2, analyzing their alleles frequency, you bound to get something confusing in relation to ancestry and ancestral population substructure.

So strangely, DNA tribes seem to consider the North African population to be mostly homogeneous when in reality it is heterogeneous. This is a serious bias on their part. Maybe it's due to the restricted samples set they have access to. Mostly taken in northern cities in North Africa.

In the rest of Africa, it seems ok, for example, they don't have Nigeria 1, Nigeria 2. They have Igbo Nigeria, Yoruba Nigeria, etc etc. Any population structure geneticist just need to insure that those people are really Igbo and Yoruba and not the product of a recent admixture of people self-describing as local. Ideally, samples from every ethnic groups are taken to assess their level of relatedness or not. That's what doing population structure study is all about.
 

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Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
Taking samples from every ethnic group in North Africa may be problematic for those with a specific political agenda.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:


For example, Egypt is composed of Beja, Bedouin, Berber, Nubian, Siwi, Arabian, Greeks, Italians.

If you put all those people of different origin (different SNP) into a blender and label those Egypt 1 and Egypt 2, analyzing their alleles frequency, you bound to get something confusing in relation to ancestry and ancestral population substructure.

So strangely, DNA tribes seem to consider the North African population to be mostly homogeneous when in reality it is heterogeneous. This is a serious bias on their part. Maybe it's due to the restricted samples set they have access to. Mostly taken in northern cities in North Africa.

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why would it be heterogeneous when you just described the following heterogeneous mix of ethnicities:

"For example, Egypt is composed of Beja, Bedouin, Berber, Nubian, Siwi, Arabian, Greeks, Italians."

and you left out Copts

and you left out Chinese, there are 60-100,000 in Egypt

and you left out Indians there are 3,600 of them

Turks 100,000

(Siwa Oasis 23,000)
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ Lioness Crew:

I ran out of ideas on how to say the same thing different ways. You are on your own after this. . One last attempt!!! I respect Dana’s and a few others opinion on this board. That said. I don’t whole-hearted agree with all their opinions. Eg Sage and I have different opinions on Cleopatra but we agree on other issues. I rely on published data, timeline, charts etc. to form my opinion. Some of the more seasoned veterans who’s forte is History, archeology etc rely on Historical publication etc, to each his own. I am skeptical on who writes what.

So back to the charts, Africans Part 4, also, middle East Part 2. Combined, they tell a story. Setting aside our perception of what a contemporary Arab is or look like. The charts tell us….

1. North Africans are the “purest/least admixed “ of the two ie South Arabians and North Africans. Note: Arabian is only a “label” for people living in south Arabia which includes Yemen.
2. Both groups are admixed the most with populations that live close to them. Eg Arabs are admixed with Turks while Berbers are heavily admixed with SSA. Geographically that is how it should be.

In case you missed it – according to DNATribes Arabs are a different ethnic group from Turks. Many perceived them to be one and the same.

So to conclude I am saying, based upon the data, dis-regarding differing historical opinions, south Arabians are African Saharans and other Africans that migrated to Arabia prior to historical times. I think that is very clear. It is very simple logic. If the Arabs were the migrants they would have brought along their WAian/Turkish genes INTO North Africa. And that clearly is not the case. Turkish/Levant SNPs are non-existent in North Africa. Now if the North Africans were the migrants into south Arabia then SSA genes would show up in Arabia. Guess what?….that is exactly what we see!!! There you go.


Besides – DNATribes FAQ clearly states North Africans are un-admixed. That was my last attempt. It is really simple logic..really

BTW: the history books may need to be re-written.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] @ Lioness Crew:

Turkish/Levant SNPs are non-existent in North Africa.

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that's not true

but anyway Arabian SNPs are

and there are overlaps between Arabian and Levantine SNPs, you are playin a semantic game
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Correction: should be Chart Middle East Part1 not Middle East Part 2
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
“Hands up in the air!!!!” I am not the one that came up with the labels. DNATribes did. I am calling it as they call it(2013). West Asians/Turks are a different ethnic group compared to Arabs. Arabs of old are now Saharan-Arabs (South) and West Asians/Turks to the North. In reality the south is a blend of different African ethnic groups and Turks

Someone needs their prescription checked



% of Turk SNP in Berbers

Algeria = 0.0%
Libya = 1.4%
MZab =0.0%
North Morocco = 0.0%
South Morocco =0.0%
Saharawi=0.0%
Tunisia = 0.0%


% of Sub-Saharan SNPs in Berber

Algeria = 8.0%
Libya = 3.9%
MZab =10.4%
North Morocco = 2.9%
South Morocco =26.1%
Saharawi=10.7%
Tunisia = 2.8%

I am not making this shyte up!!!. Look at the data!!!!!

I can do the same for Saharans in south Arabia. Where there is an increase in SSA SNPs in Arabia there is a corresponding increase North East Africans SNPs. That is why Peter Underhill concluded the presence was NOT from slavery but migration in pre-historic times.

Anyone above a high education or above can see that…no statistic analysis needed….right Sweet?


The lesson in all of this is …you cannot and should not make assumptions based upon how a person look. Goes back to what DNATribes called the unscientific classification called race.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

% of Turk SNP in Berbers

Algeria = 0.0%
Libya = 1.4%
MZab =0.0%
North Morocco = 0.0%
South Morocco =0.0%
Saharawi=0.0%
Tunisia = 0.0%


% of Sub-Saharan SNPs in Berber

Algeria = 8.0%
Libya = 3.9%
MZab =10.4%
North Morocco = 2.9%
South Morocco =26.1%
Saharawi=10.7%
Tunisia = 2.8%

---

% of Saharan-Arabian SNPs

Algeria = 83.4%
Libya = 89.4%
MZab =87.1%
North Morocco = 89.2%
South Morocco =69.8%
Saharawi=88.9%
Tunisia = 86.6%


this is getting tiresome, the use of the owrd "Arabian" here indicates OOA ancestry at a significantly greater percentage than local
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Ok! Let's rephrase...

% of LEVANT/West Asian SNP in Berbers

Algeria = 0.0%
Libya = 1.4%
MZab =0.0%
North Morocco = 0.0%
South Morocco =0.0%
Saharawi=0.0%
Tunisia = 0.0%


% of Sub-Saharan SNPs in Berber

Algeria = 8.0%
Libya = 3.9%
MZab =10.4%
North Morocco = 2.9%
South Morocco =26.1%
Saharawi=10.7%
Tunisia = 2.8%


===

That's right refuse to address the lack of Levant SNP in Berbers. Proving the direction of migration.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
This thread is going downhill, and its going downhill fast. DNA Tribes (and all other genome wide SNP studies) have trouble distinguishing between Eurasian and North African specific SNPs and these clowns think that this somehow supports their views, or that its somehow different from the conclusions reached by Henn et al 2012. Yet, the same buffoons have beef with Henn et al 2012's findings.


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Ok! Let's rephrase...

% of LEVANT/West Asian SNP in Berbers

Algeria = 0.0%
Libya = 1.4%
MZab =0.0%
North Morocco = 0.0%
South Morocco =0.0%
Saharawi=0.0%
Tunisia = 0.0%


% of Sub-Saharan SNPs in Berber

Algeria = 8.0%
Libya = 3.9%
MZab =10.4%
North Morocco = 2.9%
South Morocco =26.1%
Saharawi=10.7%
Tunisia = 2.8%


That's right refuse to address the lack of Levant SNP in Berbers. Proving the direction of migration.

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It's odd asking somebody to address a lack. I acknowledge the above info

The primary question is are modern people of the Maghreb primarily or African ancestry or not

I put up this:

% of Saharan-Arabian SNPs

Algeria = 83.4%
Libya = 89.4%
MZab =87.1%
North Morocco = 89.2%
South Morocco =69.8%
Saharawi=88.9%
Tunisia = 86.6%

^^^^ it's from the same chart your figures are from.

yet numerous times in this thread you pretend it's not there
why do you keep doing this over and over again?



^^^^ when this chart says "Arabian" it is not refrerring to culture it is referring to DNA.

Hense if the contribution on this section of the chart was indigneous they would have called it "Saharan African"
not "Saharan Arabian"
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB]

The tribe of Shammar (Arabic: شمّر "Šammar") is one of the largest tribes of Nejd, Saudi Arabia, with an estimated 3 million members in Iraq, over 1.5 million in Saudi Arabia (concentrated in Ha'il), a Kuwaiti population (centered in Al Jahra) of around 100,000, a Syrian population is thought to exceed 0.5 million along with unknown number in Jordan.In its "golden age", around 1850, the tribe ruled much of central and northern Arabia from Riyadh to the frontiers of Syria and the vast area known as Al Jazira in northern Iraq.

The Shammar are an Arabian Bedouin tribe. the tribe once ruled most of Arabia, and they had a state known as Jebal Shammar in Northern Arabia under quasi-independence however there loyalty to the Ottoman Empire was unquestioned. Unlike other Arabians tribes the Shammar did not partake in the Arab revolt, but wanted to crush it. The Sauds and the British would force the Shammar to be expelled from their ancient homeland into what is now Iraq. Today 40% of the Shammar tribe lives in Iraq, and made Tikrit and Mosul to be their homeland. Always distinguished by their noses, eyes and small built and often to this day keep the nomadic lifestyle of their ancestors. The Toga clan of the Shammar who settled in the Southern parts of Iraq adopted Shia Islam. Today there are still blood links and relationships between these two groups. During the Baathist times the Shammar faced increasing marginalization despite they were mostly Sunnis and of Arab origins, this was because their nomadic culture was seen to be a hindrance to modernization.

genetic study of kuwait bedouin tribes the shammar sample carried two main haplogroups—J1 (at 52.3%) and R1a1 (at 42.8%)

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The Syrian Shammar in the Nafud or Syrianized Arabs from Syria and Iraq - as I mentioned above and you tried to ignore - are people who moved southward from Iraq within the last 4 centuries. The Arabian Shammar and Tayyi groups who never left Arabia and the Yemen and Saudi Arabia are still more like their original Arab and east African brethren, and not as the Arabs used to say "fair-skinned like a slave".




SOMALI MAN

You also quoted "Other historians locate Shammar's origin in Ghasinides and Manatherides] of Hira (near Kufa), and then immigrating from the Fertile Crescent to northern Saudi Arabia."

This may or may not be true but in any case it is worth noting that the Ghassan a people from the Azd of Yemen are called akhdar (black) by the Arab grammarian Ibn Manzour 14th century Tunisian. They a part of the reason he wrote in Lisaan al- Arab most Arabs are dark brown or black with kinky hair.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Ok! Let's rephrase...

---

It's odd asking somebody to address a lack. I acknowledge the above info

The primary question is are modern people of the Maghreb primarily or African ancestry or not

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
You tell me…this is your expertise… along with Sage/Jari etc …seems like Lioness know a thing or two about the history also.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Yes Sweetness, graciously admit defeat. BTW : I have an IQ of 144, you lost before you even began. Many of these geneticists are below that. Fortunately, for them, I am in a different field.

---

Who are you talking to xyyman? I'm assuming its not to me as anyone with just plain old common sense knows LYIN_ SS isn't in any field.

BTW - there are no "geneticists" on this forum except for maybe one. People learning about genetics are called "people learning about genetics" not "geneticists". lol! And the one probable geneticist that sometimes posts on this forum is definitely not posted on this post yet.

Happy for your IQ results though.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
@ Lioness Crew:

Simply. Yes, they are primarily African. What is labeled “Sahara-Arabian” is in fact Saharan-African”. So yes, I agree with your numbers ie the one published by DNATribes.

Also attested by ;

=========
Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman
Alicia M Cadenas1, Peter A Underhill


Distribution of E3b1-M35 derivatives
The presence of signature sub-Saharan African mtDNA lineages in the south Arabian populations has been attributed to various waves of gene flow to the region, including that associated with the East African slave trade. This is apparent from the exact mtDNA haplotype matches between lineages in Yemen and East Africa, including those associated with the Bantu expansion.20 The presence of the E3a-M2 lineage in Oman (7.4%),4 Yemen (3.2%), UAE (5.5%) and Qatar (2.8%) could lead to the oversimplified conclusion that these chromosomes are also a contribution from the East African slave trade.


The E3b1-M35 sub-haplogroups, M123 and M78, are believed to have spread from East Africa to North Africa and later expanded eastward through the Levantine corridor and westward to northwestern Africa. E3b1c-M123 disseminated primarily to the east.4 The distribution of the E3b1-M35 derivatives in Yemen, Qatar and UAE agrees with their arrival by expansion via the Levantine corridor rather than through the Horn of Africa


Based on the distribution and high STR differentiation of cluster d, its dispersal may have occurred early, the first to spread the E3b1a-M78 chromosomes to North Africa and THEN the Near East


=====

Debate with someone else. Like a picture spammer. Your are out matched with me..
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Not you Dana. That individual knows. ....

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Yes Sweetness, graciously admit defeat. BTW : I have an IQ of 144, you lost before you even began. Many of these geneticists are below that. Fortunately, for them, I am in a different field.

---

Who are you talking to xyyman? I'm assuming its not to me as anyone with just plain old common sense knows LYIN_ SS isn't in any field.

BTW - there are no "geneticists" on this forum except for maybe one. People learning about genetics are called "people learning about genetics" not "geneticists". lol! And the one probable geneticist that sometimes posts on this forum is definitely not posted on this post yet.

Happy for your IQ results though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by anguishofbeing:
You mean Sweetie/Mindless and Mary aren't geneticists? LOL!

---

Hahahahahahahahahhahahaha. Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. That's like, sooooo funny!


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
% of Saharan-Arabian SNPs

Algeria = 83.4%
Libya = 89.4%
MZab =87.1%
North Morocco = 89.2%
South Morocco =69.8%
Saharawi=88.9%
Tunisia = 86.6%

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


they are primarily African

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


However the data don't lie. It is simple logic.

1. Berbers are indigenous to North Africa.
2. Berbers are not admixed with Turks/West Asian and very little European.
3. The one group that is out of place are Moroccan Jews...also modern Egyptians.
4. Berbers have more SSA genes compared European or Turks.
5. Obviously the south Arabs are African/Berber migrants. They carry similar SSA SNPs as Berbers.
6. Any idiot will deduce if the migration was from Arabia to North Africa. The Turkish SNP will be prevalent in North Africa. And this is NOT the case.

So yes, Lioness. Berbers are "Negros", the SNPs prove it

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
BTW – you do realize this is exactly what G. Sergi proposed by study the shape of skulls. The “Mediterranean Race” originated in East Africa, spread to North Africa, into Europe, then the Levant into Arabia and Persia. Does not matter what label is put on them. They were black Africans when they started out as PN2 during pre-Neolithic and Neolithic times.

He proposed that all North Africans, Iberians, Cretes, Etruscan, Sardinians, Phoenicians, Persians, early Turks, British megalithics …originated in Africa. Now DNA is proving him right.

Also – If I was a betting man I would bet these SSA peoples of Arabia look like modern day Arabs proving just as with Rameses III,,,there is no race.

=====
Quote:
The E3b1-M35 sub-haplogroups, M123 and M78, are believed to have spread from East Africa to North Africa and later expanded eastward through the Levantine corridor and westward to northwestern Africa. E3b1c-M123 disseminated primarily to the east.4 The distribution of the E3b1-M35 derivatives in Yemen, Qatar and UAE agrees with their arrival by expansion via the Levantine corridor rather than through the Horn of Africa

---

Sub-Saharans in Arabia and Persia.


Saharans in Arabia and Persia.

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
% of Saharan-Arabian SNPs

Algeria = 83.4%
Libya = 89.4%
MZab =87.1%
North Morocco = 89.2%
South Morocco =69.8%
Saharawi=88.9%
Tunisia = 86.6%

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


they are primarily African

---

dana I thought you disagreed with this

do you want to retract what you said earlier?

it's o.k. I won't judge

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


However the data don't lie. It is simple logic.

1. Berbers are indigenous to North Africa.
2. Berbers are not admixed with Turks/West Asian and very little European.
3. The one group that is out of place are Moroccan Jews...also modern Egyptians.
4. Berbers have more SSA genes compared European or Turks.
5. Obviously the south Arabs are African/Berber migrants. They carry similar SSA SNPs as Berbers.
6. Any idiot will deduce if the migration was from Arabia to North Africa. The Turkish SNP will be prevalent in North Africa. And this is NOT the case.

So yes, Lioness. Berbers are "Negros", the SNPs prove it

---

xwhyman: danacentric aka your "sweetness" is not a DNA girl she's a hisstory chick. She's has the opposite tunnel vision you have
Lioness productions, however, combines history with genetics, giving a more complete picture

Interesting your comment reveals even the Kabyles, the largest berber population (5+ million) and the Mozabites are Negroes. I'll have to look into that

I noticed something here. Your remarks here are derived form the DNATribes anaylsis which applies to the Maghreb:

Algeria
Libya
MZab
North Morocco
South Morocco
Saharawi
Tunisia

The way you are speaking seems to interpret that the entire population of each one of these countries as "berber".

The term "berber" can be ambiguos. I think although these countries have a lot of bebers but I think as a whole these countries should be called Maghrebians. That is less ambiguous.
Most of the people that get called "berber" don't even call themselves that. Are they the vast majority of all these countires berber? It depends on how you define berber.
I think it is better not to get caught up in what the term means on a precise basis, DNATribes did not call it "Berber African Region"

---

Leave me out of it LYINGEST One of all. Your trolling is not cute and not worth responding to, besides being a waste of your time.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
o.k, I'll just let it go
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
stupid ass troll. lol
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ jealous troll trying to get attention on a lioness thread, and a usual zero contribution of information, unlike any poster on this thread
 

---

Posted by anguishofbeing (Member # 16736) on :
 
shouldn't you be busy with your second job right now selling fake passports and what not?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ jealous troll trying to get attention on a lioness thread, and a usual zero contribution of information, unlike any poster on this thread

---

 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
Actually the lioness, doesn't say anything special in this thread (in general) beside what everybody already knows and now confirmed through genetics.

That is that most coastal North Africans are of West Asian extract, either recently through the muslim conquest (7th century) or through more ancient migration. In very Ancient times (Aterian culture, Pleistocene, Holocene,etc) North Africa was also occupied mainly by black African people but those days are long gone. Obviously at that time and even for a long time afterward, the humans population was relatively very small all over the world.

Contrary to some people on this site and some Afro-centrists I don't seek to make each and every past civilizations on earth black to increase our own profile. I try to look at African history through it's own greatness and limitation. As is the history of all the people on earth. Even Europe was considered barbarians by Romans or I'm sure even by Kemites and Kushites at one point. Look at England(usa), Scandinavian countries and Germany now. All while greeks and romans are not as great as they used to be (they are still ok though).

I just happen to consider, and all evidences point toward it, that Ancient Egypt was truly fundamentally a black African civilization. That is ethnically, culturally, religiously, etc. The latest genetic test on 18th Dynasty, 20th Dynasty mummies just happens to confirms it. Ancient Egyptians were not some hamitic race or some Caucasoid looking black people but true Africans through and through. Especially true when you look back in time in the formative years of Ancient Egypt and the first dynasties. Then eventually Ancient Egypt got invaded by Hyksos, Assyrians, and other people of foreign extract. Leaving Ancient Egypt at only a fraction of it's past greatness. Dynasty 1-4, Dyn 6, Dyn 11 and 12, Dyn 18, 19 and 25 were the most African ones.



Chapel of the Tomb of Akhethotep, 5th Dynasty
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Quote:
"not Caucasoid looking black people but true Africans through and through...."?????

You know what ...forget it.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Quote:
"not Caucasoid looking black people but true Africans through and through...."?????

You know what ...forget it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyzman:

I try to hold my tongue with you but you are really testing my patience. You have a knack for talking without thinking...or in this case reading. The sections are bolded. It is up to you now to read more...quote from previous post


prehistoric means....pre-historic....>3000bc?

======we do not found the strong sexual bias proposed by other authors for Arabian populations and attributed to the peculiarities of the recent slave-trade [12,36]. Without dismissing the role mediated by slavery, the geographical distribution of these sub-Saharan African lineages in the Arabian Peninsula seems to indicate a prehistoric entrance of a noticeable portion of these lineages=====

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QUOTE]But isn't the presence of E1b1a in Arabia and Persia tied to Medieval slave trade??! If you are referring to much more ancient and voluntary migrations of Africans into Arabia, I thought the lineages are largely E1b1b as well as even older E2?? As for 'Black Persians', they were supposedly the indigenous Elamites.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

This thread is going downhill, and its going downhill fast. DNA Tribes (and all other genome wide SNP studies) have trouble distinguishing between Eurasian and North African specific SNPs and these clowns think that this somehow supports their views, or that its somehow different from the conclusions reached by Henn et al 2012. Yet, the same buffoons have beef with Henn et al 2012's findings.

---

I'm getting the same feeling. That Xyz among others is caught up in a hype frenzy that they misconstrue these studies to fit their own perceptions.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Yes Sweetness, graciously admit defeat. BTW : I have an IQ of 144, you lost before you even began. Many of these geneticists are below that. Fortunately, for them, I am in a different field.

---

Not to dismiss your claimed IQ scores, but I guess IQ scores aren't everything then, if you fail to comprehend the very sources you cite. Don't feel too bad, because there are many brilliant minds who don't think well when caught up in their emotions.
 

---

Posted by HERU (Member # 6085) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
either way they both originate from the Sahel rather than the Maghreb [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERU:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
either way they both originate from the Sahel rather than the Maghreb

---

That would be incorrect.

"For more than three centuries, scholars have held that the 'Abid were Sudanese captives or refugees, most likely Bambara from Timbuktu [...] little of the available evidence supports this contention; instead, it indicates that nearly all 'Abid, both slaves and Haratin, were Moroccan born." - Allan R. Meyers, Origins of Moroccan 'Abid, pg 428 [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERU:
How about you find it yourself like I did.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERU:
Wait...what are your sources?

---

Porch, D (1983) The Conquest of Morocco - The Bizarre History of France's Last Great Colonial Adventure, the Long Struggle to Subdue a Medieval Kingdom By Intrigue and Force of Arms 1903–1914, Knopf
Porch, D, 2nd Ed (2005) The Conquest of the Sahara, Ferrar, Straus & Giroux
Rogerson, B & Lavington, S Edited by (2004) Marrakech, The Red City: The City through Writers' Eyes, Sickle Moon Books
Bernasek, L & Burger, H. S. (2008) Imazighen!: Beauty and Artisanship in Berber Life, Peabody Museum Press
Courtney-Clarke, M & Brooks, G. (1996) Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women, Thames & Hudson Ltd, London, UK
El-Ghissassi, H. (2006) Regard sur Le Laroc de Mohamed VI, Michel Lafon
Ennaji, M (2005) Multilingualism, Cultural Identity and Education in Morocco, Springer, New York, USA
Harris, W. (2003) Morocco that Was, Eland Books, London, UK
Hart, D.M. (2000) Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco, Frank Cass Publishers
Howe, M (2005) Morocco: The Islamist Awakening and Other Challenges, University of Oxford Press, New York, USA
Hoffman, K.E. (2008) We Share Walls: Language, Land, and Gender in Berber Morocco, Wiley-Blackwell
Maxwell, G (2000) Lords of the Atlas, Weidenfeld Nicholson Illustrated
Maxwell, G (2002) Lords of the Atlas: The Rise and Fall of the House of Glaoua 1893–1956, The Lyons Press
McKissack, F. & McKissack, P. (1995) The Royal Kingdoms of Ghana, Mali, and Songhay: Life in Medieval Africa, Henry Holt and Co. LLC
Pennell, C.R. (2003) Morocco: From Empire to Independence, OneWorld Publications
Pennel, C.R. (2001) Morocco since 1830: A History, NYU Press, USA


____________________________________________________


That the Gnawa originate in the Sahel/West Africa is the mainstream point of view.
Your author is claiming an alternative point of view
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.

The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.



Though it probably disturbs YOU.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
So it seems the Wikipedia author LYIN _SS used has things for the most part right. The Djanawa or Ignaouen(Ghanaians) formed from early Mande were from North and western Africa just as the Haratin/ Ikaradan (Teda Krit) were also from North Africa stretching to the Nile.

Both of these in part made up the Zaghawa/Azawagh Berbers to which is also related the term Zaggaren/Zagran and Azgar used for the Haratin.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I'll say this about the Gnawa, it's amazing if a
group of native Maghebis have songs forgiving
Maghrebis for enslaving them after a forced
march across the Sahara, songs that have
"archaic" Bambara words no longer
used in contemporary Bambara.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.

The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.

---

• Leukaethiopes
• Melanogaetuli
• Nigritae
• Western Ethiopians (Hesperii)
• Pharusii
• Icthyophagi Aethiopes
• etc.,

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.

The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.

---

and how are you going to link Haratin currentky living in Morocco with those ancient people of the green Sahara and distinguish them from a Moroccan who might have roots in Ghana from several hundred years ago?

And we know Ghana was conquered by the Almorvids and the before the Almoravids the Umayyads had directed the conquest of Iberia before the Almorvids even expanded further South to the Senegal River and converted and conferdated the Sanhaja

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

And we know Ghana was conquered by the Almorvids and the before the Almoravids the Umayyads had directed the conquest of Iberia before the Almorvids even expanded further South to the Senegal River and converted and conferdated the Sanhaja

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
The Almoravids were basically the Tuareg/Songhai/Zahay people

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
The Almoravids were basically the Tuareg/Songhai/Zahay people

---

The Almorvids were Moroccans who expanded the Muslim empire from where it had had been, the North African coast and Iberia which had been conquered by the Umayyad,
and they extended the empire South into the Sahel and West Africa you mentioned, under Moroccan leadership, religious fanatics conquering and converting people including the people of Ghana

---

Wrong again, LYIN_SS! The black Almoravids who existed nearly 1000 years ago founded and NAMED Marrakush i.e. the early region named Morocco. They originated between the Niger, Draa and Senegal rivers. THAT'S where they began - as even Wiki knows. Not in your IMAGINED abid-owning Morocco.

Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

(Keep dreaming though - and keep hope alive. )
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
you would liken Leukaethiopes to Haratin rather then Beydane?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
The Almoravids were basically the Tuareg/Songhai/Zahay people

---

The Almorvids were Moroccans who expanded the Muslim empire from where it had had been, the North African coast and Iberia which had been conquered by the Umayyad,
and they extended the empire South into the Sahel and West Africa you mentioned, under Moroccan leadership, religious fanatics conquering and converting people including the people of Ghana

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Spread Of Islam into North West Africa

PART I The Ummayad Empire





PART II The Almoravid Empire



Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty.
Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Spread Of Islam into North West Africa

PART I The Ummayad Empire

---

And where did the Umayyad's come from before they converted the Syrians and Turks to Islam- LYIN _ SS?


"The expedition against Algiers was followed, in 1637, by another, under the command of Captain Rainsborough, against Sallee, in Morocco. At his approach, the Moors sold a_thousand of their captives, British subjects, to Tunis and Algiers." From the e-book, White Slavery in the Barbary States, lecture by Charles Sumner, 1847. (Project Gutenberg).

Give it up LYIN _SS.lol! We all know where your going with this.


(Keep hope alive though.)
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty.
Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.

---

Description of the 12th century Sufi Saint and Shaykh "Shaykh of the Shaykhs" of the Jazula/Gazula Berbers of the Middle Atlas from the clan of Haskura -

“One of the companions of Abu Yaaza got married. His wife asked him for a female slave, but he did not have one. So Abu Yaaza said to him, ‘I will substitute myself for the female slave,’ for he was black and had no hair on his face.” Realm of the Saint: Power and Authority in Moroccan Sufism, (1998) p. 69 by vincent cornell.

I just said Morocco was originally founded by the black Almoravids. Did you not read it?!

Just as the name of the Almoravid came into existence only after the people called Guezula and Lamtuna (Aulamidden) came to be called "the Almoravids"!

One has to come before the other, now doesn't it.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty.
Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.

---

Description of the 12th century Sufi Saint and Shaykh of the Jazula/Gazula Berbers of the Middle Atlas from the clan of Haskura -

“One of the companions of Abu Yaaza got married. His wife asked him for a female slave, but he did not have one. So Abu Yaaza said to him, ‘I will substitute myself for the female slave,’ for he was black and had no hair on his face.” Realm of the Saint: Power and Authority in Moroccan Sufism, p. 69 vincent cornell 1998.

I just said Morocco was originally founded by the black Almoravids. Did you not read it?!

Just as the Almoravid name only came after the people called Guezula or Lamtuna (Aulamidden) came to be known as the Almoravid.

One has to come before the other now doesn't it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Abdallah Ibn Yasin was a theologian and founder of the Almoravid movement and dynasty.
Abdallah ibn Yasin was from the tribe of the Jazulah (pronounced Guezula), a Sanhaja sub-tribe from the Sous, southern Morocco.

---

Description of the 12th century Sufi Saint and Shaykh of the Jazula/Gazula Berbers of the Middle Atlas from the clan of Haskura -

“One of the companions of Abu Yaaza got married. His wife asked him for a female slave, but he did not have one. So Abu Yaaza said to him, ‘I will substitute myself for the female slave,’ for he was black and had no hair on his face.” Realm of the Saint: Power and Authority in Moroccan Sufism, p. 69 vincent cornell 1998.

I just said Morocco was originally founded by the black Almoravids. Did you not read it?!

Just as the Almoravid name only came after the people called Guezula or Lamtuna (Aulamidden) came to be known as the Almoravid.

One has to come before the other now doesn't it.

---

Arab Conquest of Morocco

The first invasion of North Africa, ordered by the caliph, was launched in 647. Marching from Medina, Arabia, 20,000 Arabs were joined in Memphis, Egypt, by another 20,000 and led into the Byzantine Exarchate of Africa by Abdallah ibn al-Sa’ad. Tripolitania in what is modern Libya was taken.

Meccan Arab Uqba bin Nafi governor of Ifriqiya on behalf of the Umayyad Caliphate armies of the third and fifth campaigns and founder of the city of Kairouan in Tunisia in 669, was head of the offensive on Morocco. He crossed North Africa and seriously shook the power of Byzantium whose presence in Africa was destroyed in 693.

It took Uqba over twenty years and three campaingns to finally annex Morocco to the Islamic Empire because of the violent opposition of the Berber tribes in North Africa.

Indeed, it was only during the eighth campaign (698-715), led by Moussa bin Nouçaïr that Morocco and Spain were finally conquered. In Morocco, two expeditions were enough for Islam to be introduced and accepted and that this country is incorporated into the Umayyad Empire in 708. Certainly, there was local resistance but at no time there was a general uprising of such as in Algeria or Tunisia where large Berber uprisings broke out, the most violent were those headed by Kosayla and Kahina (Berber warriors). Moroccan Berbers converted to Islam en masse and many of the highest responsibilities were entrusted to some of them.

Morocco’s highly individualized world, divided into many tribes were proud of their independence and with Islam there was a new religious cohesion. The new faith was never challenged by the Berbers. However the Arab presence and its abuses (mainly oppressive taxation) was often attacked. The Berber uprising, in 740, against the power of the caliphs of the East and its Arab representatives living in Morocco, caused a rupture between Morocco and the East and in the name of Islam. This Kharijite revolt was directed against the caliph. Indeed, for the Kharijites, the caliphate was a return to the best of the Muslims faith and origins.

This doctrine, from the East, was the subject of fervent adherence by the Berbers in Morocco. It advocated equality in social and political democracy and its followers were hunted down by the Umayyad caliphate. For them this heresy threatened the very essence of its power and was unacceptable.

Born in Morocco, the revolt spread to the whole of North Africa and was narrowly defeated in the east through a narrow two military victories by the Caliphate army near Kairouan. The reconquest of the western zone of the Islamic empire by the Umayyads did not take place because, in 750, the Abbasids came to power in the East. The Abbasid caliphs tried unsuccessfully to reconquer North Africa but failed to regain Kairouan and Ifriqiya, leaving everywhere else to small Kharijite kingdoms. This situation lasted until 801 when Harun al-Rashid recognized the de facto independence of the region.

By cutting itself off from allegiance with Baghdad in the ninth century, Morocco, after more than two centuries of dependence of Damascus under the Umayyads and in Baghdad under the Abbasids, ended the influence Eastern policy. From that moment, the caliphate was replaced in Morocco by the Sultanate, thus founding Morocco's autonomy as a nation.

_____________________________________________________


>>>>>

The Almoravids ( of course alTak can't use that he has to use al~Murabitun) don't come in until 1042

When the Almoravids began to emerge as the true power of the desert, the Idrissides long gone except in the region of Tangier where some asserted their authority which extended over a small area under the effective control of Andalusians. Morocco was politically divided into large tribes or Berber confederations, true to the changing contours and principalities which were more or less independent. The most powerful principalities were the Zenetes.

The history of the Almoravids is related to the Islamization of the Sanhaja, a coalition of major Berber tribes of Western Sahara (the Lemtouna, and the Messouffa Goddala-or-Guezzala) who controlled the trade routes between North Africa and Sub-Saharan regions.

The Almoravids in trying first to "recover" Islam succeeded in unifying the Muslim community as well as being conquerors and they quickly gained a justified reputation for invincibility. Indeed, it took fourteen years for the Morabitoun (from 1042 to 1056) to conquer the Western Sahara and southern Morocco. The first account is of of the Almoravids in southern Morocco in 1053,supporting the Sanhaja of Sijilmassa in their conflict with the Zénètes of Maghraoua.

---

This black history lesson 102 (except for the Abbasid part)brought to you by LYIN _SS Productions!?

Black Words to know -

Umayyads (the original ones)
Messoufa
Goddala/Guezala/Guetzala
Almoravid/Murabitoun
Maghraoua
Zenetes/Zanata
Kahina
Kosayla
Ibn Yasin
Uqba ibn Nafi
Kharijites
"Berber warriors"
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


No al~Murabitun conquest of Wagadu

No al~Murabitun conversion and confederation of Sanhaja.

Sanhaja founded al~Murabitun.

Goddala were the only Sanhaja confederacy members forced into al~Muabitun movement. [/QB]

---

 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[/QUOTE]Arab Conquest of Morocco

The first invasion of North Africa, ordered by the caliph, was launched in 647. Marching from Medina, Arabia, 20,000 Arabs were joined in Memphis, Egypt, by another 20,000 and led into the Byzantine Exarchate of Africa by Abdallah ibn al-Sa’ad. Tripolitania in what is modern Libya was taken.

Meccan Arab Uqba bin Nafi governor of Ifriqiya on behalf of the Umayyad Caliphate armies of the third and fifth campaigns and founder of the city of Kairouan in Tunisia in 669, was head of the offensive on Morocco. He crossed North Africa and seriously shook the power of Byzantium whose presence in Africa was destroyed in 693.

It took Uqba over twenty years and three campaingns to finally annex Morocco to the Islamic Empire because of the violent opposition of the Berber tribes in North Africa.

Indeed, it was only during the eighth campaign (698-715), led by Moussa bin Nouçaïr that Morocco and Spain were finally conquered. In Morocco, two expeditions were enough for Islam to be introduced and accepted and that this country is incorporated into the Umayyad Empire in 708.


[/QUOTE]“ While the caliphs of the Umayyad dynasty had prided themselves on the purity of their Arab lineage through marriage with noble Arab women, by the second century of Islamic history many of the caliphs of the Abbasid dynasty were the sons of slave concubines.” The Imperial Harem, Leslie Pearce, 1993 p. 38.


Uqba ibn Nafi was from the clan of Quraysh belonging to the Kinaniyyah an early and contemporary clan of modern Hijaz and Jericho in Israel/Palestine - case closed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqiTd35mA2A

“It is said that the Quraish explained their short stature and dark skin by the fact that they always carefully adhered to endogamy.” Robert F. Spencer, The Arabian Matriarchate: An Old Controversy, Southwestern Journal of Anthropology. 8 (Winter 1952) 488.

I'm sorry but you keep bringing up the Umayyades so you might as well talk about how they are originally described "...les Haśhimites, famille où dominait le sang nègre” (“the Hashimites, the family where Black blood dominated" - as with all early Arabians) from Henry Lammens, Études sur le siècle des Omayyades (Beirut: Imprimerie Calholique, 1930) 44
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
dana you might want to visit a jari thread called:

Muhammad's shameless murders of the non-Muhammdan(Kuffar) Arab Poets

in AE section
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Don't think so. I'm not really into Muhammad, LYIN _SS. Didn't mean to give that impression.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Don't think so. I'm not really into Muhammad, LYIN _SS. Didn't mean to give that impression.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

"The expedition against Algiers was followed, in 1637, by another, under the command of Captain Rainsborough, against Sallee, in Morocco. At his approach, the Moors sold a_thousand of their captives, British subjects, to Tunis and Algiers." From the e-book, White Slavery in the Barbary States, lecture by Charles Sumner, 1847.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Even if that is so, the Gnawa cannot be used as a strawman for all the other black groups living in North Africa. The Haratin for example were once thought to have recent origins in Sub-Saharan Africa, yet their oral traditions as well as DNA analysis shows this is not the case. The Haratin appear to be one of the few groups aboriginal to the Maghreb area and yet they are black.

The rock paintings from Morocco should be proof enough how the prehistoric inhabitants looked.

---

and how are you going to link Haratin currently living in Morocco with those ancient people of the green Sahara and distinguish them from a Moroccan who might have roots in Ghana from several hundred years ago?

---

quote:

---

And we know Ghana was conquered by the Almorvids and the before the Almoravids the Umayyads had directed the conquest of Iberia before the Almorvids even expanded further South to the Senegal River and converted and conferdated the Sanhaja

---

I believe Dana and Takruri have corrected your claims already. It's amazing how you and other laymen are quick to become armchair 'experts' using google without the proper time and research on the subject.
 

---

Posted by HERU (Member # 6085) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HERU:
Wait...what are your sources?

---

Porch, D (1983) The Conquest of Morocco - The Bizarre History of France's Last Great Colonial Adventure, the Long Struggle to Subdue a Medieval Kingdom By Intrigue and Force of Arms 1903–1914, Knopf
Porch, D, 2nd Ed (2005) The Conquest of the Sahara, Ferrar, Straus & Giroux
Rogerson, B & Lavington, S Edited by (2004) Marrakech, The Red City: The City through Writers' Eyes, Sickle Moon Books
Bernasek, L & Burger, H. S. (2008) Imazighen!: Beauty and Artisanship in Berber Life, Peabody Museum Press
Courtney-Clarke, M & Brooks, G. (1996) Imazighen: The Vanishing Traditions of Berber Women, Thames & Hudson Ltd, London, UK
El-Ghissassi, H. (2006) Regard sur Le Laroc de Mohamed VI, Michel Lafon
Ennaji, M (2005) Multilingualism, Cultural Identity and Education in Morocco, Springer, New York, USA
Harris, W. (2003) Morocco that Was, Eland Books, London, UK
Hart, D.M. (2000) Tribe and Society in Rural Morocco, Frank Cass Publishers
Howe, M (2005) Morocco: The Islamist Awakening and Other Challenges, University of Oxford Press, New York, USA
Hoffman, K.E. (2008) We Share Walls: Language, Land, and Gender in Berber Morocco, Wiley-Blackwell
Maxwell, G (2000) Lords of the Atlas, Weidenfeld Nicholson Illustrated
Maxwell, G (2002) Lords of the Atlas: The Rise and Fall of the House of Glaoua 1893–1956, The Lyons Press
McKissack, F. & McKissack, P. (1995) The Royal Kingdoms of Ghana, Mali, and Songhay: Life in Medieval Africa, Henry Holt and Co. LLC
Pennell, C.R. (2003) Morocco: From Empire to Independence, OneWorld Publications
Pennel, C.R. (2001) Morocco since 1830: A History, NYU Press, USA


____________________________________________________


That the Gnawa originate in the Sahel/West Africa is the mainstream point of view.
Your author is claiming an alternative point of view

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


No al~Murabitun conquest of Wagadu

No al~Murabitun conversion and confederation of Sanhaja.

Sanhaja founded al~Murabitun.

Goddala were the only Sanhaja confederacy members forced into al~Muabitun movement.

---

[/QB]

---

Sorry, the al-Murabitun conquest of Wagadu is a myth. See Masonen and Fisher, 1996: http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3171941?uid=3739776&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101780903291
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ The idea (now in a new thread of AlTakruri's) is that the Almoravid aka Al Murabitin did not invade Ghana > is an alternative theory. Most scholars do not believe that
The above article I posted if form Molefi Asante's History of Africa.

Your link, like your other link is to only page 1 intoduction of an article on JUSTOR
 

---

Posted by HERU (Member # 6085) on :
 
^^^ Translation: 'your link is actual scholarship I was completely unaware of; now allow me to continue parroting myths and half-truths as fact.'

Recap: you make a series of disputed claims (like that about the Haratin) and dismiss anything to the contrary as "alternative." You claim to know what "most scholars" believe but seemingly weren't aware of one of the more important expositions of African historiography of the past 20 years.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
To those who still don’t get it. It doesn’t matter what a Tunisian look like. There is a thing called science and based upon CONTEMPORARY(2009/2013) scientific research here are the facts. At the risk of wrath from my Afrocentric brethren.

1. Indigenous North Africans are NOT genetically related to people from the Levant. Regardless of populist belief and eyeballing anthropology. This is based upon CODIS STR, SNPs and Haplogroup lineage. Again I am not sure who they sampled for these studies and what these people looked like. I am going by the data ONLY. Posting pics doesn’t help. I a red-headed Irishman and I will post my pic soon.
2. Their closest genetic relationship is South Saharans. Up to 40% SSA in south Tunisian groups. This is based upon SNP/STR/Haplogroups. Each corroborates the other.
3. South Arabians are an admixture of all Africans types and people from the Levant and further North. That is why South Arabians are related to BOTH Turks and Africans nut Saharans are NOT related to Turks./West Asians
4. Tunisians are supposed to be light complexioned due to the ecological niche they occupy. They should be about the same complexion as the Turks and Syrians although they are NOT Turks and Syrians.
5. The Levant was predominantly African and the population was replaced by Turks/Syrians. The many studies I cited confirm this. There are still remnants of the African presence in the Levant as attested to by Bedouins tribesmen in the Negev desert of Israel. And recent study confirming majority African lineage in indigenous people of the Dead Sea area in Jordan. High frequency of Cameroonian R-V88 and E1b1 in these tribes.
6. There is growing evidence that European woman are migrant Berbers(H1, H3) that migrated to Iberia/Tunisia to the southern shores of Europe >12,000ya.. Which means modern Europeans(especially those to the south) are an admixture of Saharans/Asians and Peoples from the Levant. Again this is confirmed genetically.


As I said. What are written in history books is my LAST source of information. Authors lie or mis-translate!!!! Sometimes deliberately. Science do NOT. But it can be manipulated.


Based upon recent research I am starting to doubt several things written in history books. Eg that Al H /Abu painting showed Yemeni’s were black like SSA purchasing Turks. The Arabic translation confirms that. That is why we should dig deeper and not eyeball. . Peter Underhill et al very much doubt the magnitude and impact on the SSA slaves to Yemeni gene pool.. Also, L Pereira and Cherni study cast doubt on the historical documented size of the Moors expulsion from Spain.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Interesting statemnet in wikipedia:

Haratin, Morocco


In most of Morocco, the word has a somewhat different meaning. "Haratin" tends to be applied to the dark-skinned agriculturalists of the southern oases. In some Moroccan oral history traditions, the Haratin of the south eastern oases near the Algerian frontier were the former slaves; in addition, the term is applied to a somewhat distinct cultural and religious movement composed of sufi ṭuruq ("orders/brotherhoods") and music groups that has begun to include different ethnicities. As Moroccan society has modernised and urbanised, the categories have broken down with intermarriage and rural to urban migration.

Haratin (Hartani or Aherdan (which means black in Tashelhit), speak Tashelhit or Central Atlas Tamazight, they traditionally worked in agriculture in the desert oases. They should not be confused with other black-skinned Moroccans living in other areas (such the Gnawas for example). With the country's modernization they increasingly became active in other jobs and many of them immigrated to modern metropolitan areas of Morocco.

_________________________________________________

also keep in mind a slave may or may not be indigenous
 

---

Posted by HERU (Member # 6085) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] Interesting statemnet in wikipedia:

They should not be confused with other black-skinned Moroccans living in other areas (such the Gnawas for example).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] LOL Whether Prehistoric or historic. The issue is indigenous ancestry

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Don't think so. I'm not really into Muhammad, LYIN _SS. Didn't mean to give that impression.

---

he don't have to, they are also making some general remarks about Arabs there

Maybe that thread is a hot potato for you, but let me ask you, are you of the opinion Muhammad was Black ?

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

"The expedition against Algiers was followed, in 1637, by another, under the command of Captain Rainsborough, against Sallee, in Morocco. At his approach, the Moors sold a_thousand of their captives, British subjects, to Tunis and Algiers." From the e-book, White Slavery in the Barbary States, lecture by Charles Sumner, 1847.

---

I had read many of these captives eventually escaped and returned to their countries.
I believe their were far more men captured.
The kidnapped European captives of the Barbary Moor/Turk pirates were also often transported to other parts of the Ottoman Empire.
Given that some captives were poor and without familes to pay their ransoms and some women raped or winding up in Turkish harems guarded by castrated black men (horrible) to what extent do you think these barbary captives changed the population of North Africa? Berbers for instance I have read that occasionally they acquired some European slaves but on the whole they avoided Ottomans and retreated to the mountains

---

First off -you are not saying you have documented evidence that the majority of the more than a million and a half Europeans in North Africa all returned to their country of origin are you? If so I'd like you to post it.


I don't care much for opinions either, LYIN _SS, when it comes to history? A better question is what were the documented statements made about his immediate family and clans.

You read English and you have already READ what the documented statements were about Muhammed (PBUH) and his family here on egyptsearch. How many times are you going to ask the same leading "NEGROPHOBIC" questions .

So since this "PROPHET" and his close kinsmen and his clan and his tribe in his region were ALL mentioned as blacks (akhdar)and near black (samar) by olive-toned NON-ARAB peoples and since the people of Arabia in the north were considered by 14th century Ibn Khaldun part of al-Sudan, since the Syrian Dhahabi, the Arab linguist Ibn Mandour and Jahiz considered that fair-skinned (ahmar) Arabs as found in many parts of MODERN Arabia were the result of PURE Arabs mixing with or being from fair-skinned SLAVES, and since the word "abyad" - we are told - didn't mean "white" in the modern western sense, but was used for both HABESHI along with Arab people of clear or shining black or near black complexion, just as it is now still in use by dark brown NEAR BLACK bedouin of ARABIA FOR THEMSELVES...

Since the individuals of the Banu Hashem were documented TAR BLACK, as many of the Quraysh STILL ARE , and the tribe from which the Quraish were derived - KINANA bin Khuzaima bin Mudrika - is the root of the tradition that the ancient "Canaanites" were blacks, and since the population occupying the larger region between Mecca, Medina and Jiddah as late as the 15th century were near black, tar black or of "very dark purple color" AS MANY STILL ARE or near blacks per the Chinese manuscripts - and since the Hudhail/Hothail bin Mudrika from the brother of Khuzaimah (Kedemah - Genesis 25: 15 ) bin Mudrikah are still possessed of "shining black" skins - per Charles Dougherty - in Travels in Arabia Deserta...
since black Africans are still denoted "Arabs" in Turkish, Yiddish and Greek , since the Northern Arabs "Nabati" were descendants of Qidar who was father of Nabit both of whom are described as BLACK in medieval Syrian and CENTRAL ASIAN texts - AS MANY STILL ARE...
Since every ARABIAN tribe at one time like every major BERBER tribe has been described by an early writer or eyewitness AS BLACK I hope you don't mind that I assume that the PROPHET of the MUSLIMS looked like the rest of HIS FAMILY AND PEOPLE, - and not like A SLAVE.


BTW - as to your second silly statement, Lyin _SS - what have men throughout history done with women slaves? I think you should know better than myself.

THAT WAS YOUR CLASS IN "GETTING OVER NEGROPHOBIA 101" rebvised for your consumption

Enjoyable wasn't it - NEXT TIME, I WISH TO BE PAID!
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] LOL Whether Prehistoric or historic. The issue is indigenous ancestry

---

"Historic" means going back a few thousand years, basically being contemporary with written record.
If that is indigenous

---

You have to start qualifying your statements LYIN _SS - a prehistoric Morocco never existed. If you are talking about who lived on both sides of the Mediterranean in prehistoric times in the area of the modern nation of Morocco that is one thing. And it is obvious from the rock art in this country, as well as the physical anthropological evidence, who was once predominant there. However, I am not going to start picture spamming AGAIN to prove once again the OBVIOUS.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
What I'm saying is who was in the region first regardless of written records and then ...which troubles you greatly.

---

LYIN _SS's frustation and DESPERATION is quite entertaining.lol! Keeps me coming back for more.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 





who's blacker?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LMAO Typical sign that the lyinass is stumped-- post a meaningless picture spam with related idiotic question.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 


Pictures of modern off-white Maghrebis. I fail to see the point, especially when the point was dismissed in how many other threads. Dana, do you recall the thread about the Moroccan royal family and how different they look from their ancestors? I'm unable to find the thread, probably because it was deleted. But I'm sure the lyinass was busted up big time in there. LOL

Having primarily African ancestry is not the same as having solely African ancestry.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lyin' _SS

---

Are they both Basques, or both African Americans, LYIN _SS. I'm confused on what your point is. Do people of Basque descent and "African Americans" or light-skinned Kola Boof look-a-likes all look alike - Your LYIN' _SS?

I should think not.

Where is that yawning graemlin when you need it?


"Feel FREE To Contact LYIN' _SS Productions for your course in Frustration/Desperation 101. Your psychosis awaits you! "
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[

Pictures of modern off-white Maghrebis. I fail to see the point, especially when the point was dismissed in how many other threads. Dana, do you recall the thread about the Moroccan royal family and how different they look from their ancestors? I'm unable to find the thread, probably because it was deleted. But I'm sure the lyinass was busted up big time in there. LOL

Having primarily African ancestry is not the same as having solely African ancestry. [/qb]

---

Hey - I will look for it. However, now that you mentioned it I had planned to post a new blog post about European slaves in North Africa. if such info is being deleted then that is another reason to post some of the same info about the slavery of the black Idrissids and Alawites and their slaves for some of our favorite Negrophobic friends on there.

It will include a special treat in particular for our anti-reparations Negrophobes - such as descriptions of the Moors Mulai Ismail, Mulay Muhamed etc. the barbarous sons of the "Negro" slave women and their "Negro" troops who were said to have "harassed" their not so dark-skinned captives and enslaved them, etc.


Example: With regard to Mulay Ismail, Alawi Emperor of Morocco and his followers, the documents of eyewitnesses are clear (according to modern scholarship) : "Brooks reported that the English 'Christians were grievously hurried and punished by those Hellish Negroes' who "regularly demanded that they 'turn Moors' or Muslims." American Christians and Islam p. 4 Thomas Kidd , 2009


The present Alawite rulers of course descend from the earlier stock.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Morocco#Alaouite_dynasty

My, my - how things change.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
Mulay Ismail was said to have had 888 children.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:




. Do people of Basque descent and "African Americans" or light-skinned Kola Boof look-a-likes all look alike - Your LYIN' _SS?

I should think not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?

---

First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.

I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region of early Mozabites came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?

"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?

---

First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.

I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?

"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?

---

First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.

I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?

"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"

---

I would put Phoenicians at the top of the list.
also some Greeks, thanks dane

---

“ we are disposed to take account also of the Germanic or Vandal element introduced at a later period, traces of which though not recognized by most authors, remain to the present time since we not unfrequently meet Kabyles with blond or reddish hair, and eyes blue or of a grayish green tinge.” Carthage and Tunis Past and present by Amos Perry, p. 272 1869.

"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"


Fashionable Kabyle woman models traditional Lombard attire



I like the Phoenician purple the Tuareg still wear better - don't you.


Yeah - Canaanites did settle on the East and North African coast supposedly.
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:




. Do people of Basque descent and "African Americans" or light-skinned Kola Boof look-a-likes all look alike - Your LYIN' _SS?

I should think not.

---

the guy's Tunisian

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:




. Do people of Basque descent and "African Americans" or light-skinned Kola Boof look-a-likes all look alike - Your LYIN' _SS?

I should think not.

---

the guy's Tunisian

---

White Tunisian - Basque - Scythian - with some Turkish thrown in - same difference, - no?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic green Sahara culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily.

After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon go back maybe to 2000 BC an made trading expeditions to Africa but the beginnings of their permanent settlements is estimated to be 800-900 BC.

For arguments sake let's round it off to 1000 BC.
Now what evidence is there of settlemtn in North Africa bewteen 6000 and 1000 BC?

Look at Europe for example. The first people came in around 30-40kya from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Euorpe.

But 15-20 years ago Europe became depopulated by ice age temperatures. It became repopualted after then.

So when the climate change a region can become depopulated or largely reduced in population.

What was happening 6000 and 1000 BC?
Not much is known about it

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon ...

---

Says who? Phoenician7?

Lebanese historian Albert Hourani once said, "Kamal Salibi is the foremost living historian of Lebanon". Salibi, a Christian and author of, A House of Many Mansions - The History of Lebanon Reconsidered, using an old gazeteer of Arabia provided hard to refute evidence of where hundreds of the earliest names of the towns and villages of Phoenicia, Mizraim, the Israelites and Philistines - were located and where they remain in his book, The Bible Came from Arabia.

Salibi was a die-hard practical realist. According to a news spokesman he once uttered - "'After life is nothing,'... It is the end. We are dust.'"

Although I can't agree with his assessment on life and death, until someone can explain why 85 percent of the place and town names found in the Hebrew Bible and Amarna records are found no place else IN THE WORLD in their logistically correspondent, geographically proper places but in southern Arabia and Hijaz, I will have to go with his conclusions on these historical topics.

When regarded in the light of a Syrian locale of Canaan and other Biblical places the historicity of the Bible becomes rather incoherent, inexplicable and unpersuasive. however the Arabian geographical situation fits rather nicely.

Sorry that I am not a nationalist in outlook, and I thank you for your consideration of this matter.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
I don't rely on picture spam to form my opinion... How a person looks MAY tell the ancestry of an individual but testing what is under the skin(DNA) gives us a more accurate picture and closer to the truth.

History books can be helpful but they can be falsified as is becoming more apparently lately.

Almost every recent genetic research study performed on North Africans confirms they are NOT admixed with Europeans neither with people of the Levant. Eyeballing is not science.

Now what or who Lioness spam as Tunisians may not be the same people these researchers sampled. I have no idea if these people are black, white or green. Never seen them in my life. Never traveled to the region. But based strictly on their published genetic makeup they are 100% African. Part of which are South Saharans.

I just came across another classic today proving once again indigenous North Africans may be as high as 51% South Saharans
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Here is a sample. I will post and critique on ESR


===========

Population Relationships in the Mediterranean Revealed by Autosomal Genetic Data (Alu and Alu/STR Compound System

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 141:430–439 (2010)

Emili Gonza´ lez-Pe´ rez,1 Esther Esteban


Gene flow analysis confirms the permeability of the Sahara to human passage along with the existence of trans-Mediterranean interchanges

Levels of genetic admixture have been estimated by means of the maximum likelihood method implemented in the LEADMIX program (Wang, 2003).

Gene flow in Mediterraneans (North and South shores) was analyzed with LEADMIX simulations checking for different parental groups. The only consistent results had been summarized in Table 3 (admixture based on STRs are almost identical than those obtained from Alu/ STR haplotypes and, hence, they are not included in Table 3). In the case of Southern Mediterraneans, the overall sub-Saharan contribution ranges from 13% for the Alu markers to 46 and 40% for the STRs and Alu/STR data, respectively.

Admixture values based on Alu/STR combinations indicate that sub-Saharan flow in North Africa ranged from 16% (North East Moroccan Berbers) to 35% (remaining samples) with the exception of Siwa Berbers who showed the highest admixture value (51%).
=========


As I said Berbers are "Negroes" under the skin regardless to what they look like even what they believe. They are NOT Europeans or Levantines.
Science have proven that.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Contd...

===

Concerning Northern Mediterraneans, the gene flow from sub-Saharan Africa was inappreciable for Alu markers and swung from 6 to 15% for the Alu/STR haplotypes data calculations.

When gene flow in Northern Mediterraneans was tested, taking Central Europe and Southern Mediterraneans as parental populations, the results were statistically inconsistent, indicating the limited power of our markers to discriminate gene flow within Caucasoid populations, (Europeans are NOT the parental population of Berbers).

In summary, the population information from autosomal data concurs with studies based on uniparental markers (see for example, Plaza et al., 2003; Achilli et al., 2004; Olivieri et al., 2006; Cruciani et al., 2007).

The fact that these traces(Sub-Saharan) have been detected in the entirety of the northern shore as well, from Spain (10%) to Turkey (9.4%), reinforces the hypothesis that gene flow in this region is probably linked to the first ancient trans-Mediterranean navigations and that has been maintained and homogenized
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
BTW: This also applies to South Arabia. ie Saharans and South Saharans migrating as Africans civilizing Europe and Near Asia.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
In Words...
====


The fact that these traces(Sub-Saharan) have been detected in the entirety of the northern shore as well, from Spain (10%) to Turkey (9.4%), reinforces the hypothesis that gene flow in this region is probably linked to the first ancient trans-Mediterranean navigations and that has been maintained and homogenized

=====
in pictures:

===

EUROPEANS STEALING AFRICAN LAND AND HISTORY!!!


 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Caucasoid is the word used to steal African history. Any study or person that uses that word has one objective. Steal African history and interject themselves in it. Call them what they are ...Europeans....or maybe Asians...since southern Europe belongs to Africa.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic green Sahara culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily.

After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon go back maybe to 2000 BC an made trading expeditions to Africa but the beginnings of their permanent settlements is estimated to be 800-900 BC.

For arguments sake let's round it off to 1000 BC.
Now what evidence is there of settlemtn in North Africa bewteen 6000 and 1000 BC?

Look at Europe for example. The first people came in around 30-40kya from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Euorpe.

But 15-20 years ago Europe became depopulated by ice age temperatures. It became repopualted after then.

So when the climate change a region can become depopulated or largely reduced in population.

What was happening 6000 and 1000 BC?
Not much is known about it

---

No - actually the Phoenicians i.e. Amalekites settled in Lebanon and other parts of Syria, the the Mediterranean and Aegean and came from the lowland of the Canaanites (still called Wadi Kanawnah) "maybe 2000 BC" located next to the Eritraean Sea across from Sudan near where was also the town of Fanikha, and not far away the lands of Eden (Aden) in Thelassar (Adul Azar)with its 4 rivers and the region of their ancestors the Philistines and Arabian Kush.

Herodotus
(Vii – 89) "These Phoenicians dwelt in old time,
as they say, by the Red Sea , Passing over from thence, they now inhabit
the sea coast of Syria."


John D. Baldwin had it right - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples 1874

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Capsian culture was a Mesolithic green Sahara culture of the Maghreb, which lasted from about 10,000 to 6,000 BCE. It was concentrated mainly in modern Tunisia, and Algeria, with some sites attested in southern Spain to Sicily.

After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon go back maybe to 2000 BC an made trading expeditions to Africa but the beginnings of their permanent settlements is estimated to be 800-900 BC.

For arguments sake let's round it off to 1000 BC.
Now what evidence is there of settlemtn in North Africa bewteen 6000 and 1000 BC?

Look at Europe for example. The first people came in around 30-40kya from Central Asia across Southern Russia and into Northern Euorpe.

But 15-20 years ago Europe became depopulated by ice age temperatures. It became repopualted after then.

So when the climate change a region can become depopulated or largely reduced in population.

What was happening 6000 and 1000 BC?
Not much is known about it

---

No - actually the Phoenicians i.e. Amalekites settled in Lebanon and other parts of Syria, the the Mediterranean and Aegean and came from the lowland of the Canaanites (still called Wadi Kanawnah) "maybe 2000 BC" located next to the Eritraean Sea across from Sudan near where was also the town of Fanikha, and not far away the lands of Eden (Aden) in Thelassar (Adul Azar)with its 4 rivers and the region of their ancestors the Philistines and Arabian Kush.

Herodotus
(Vii – 89) "These Phoenicians dwelt in old time,
as they say, by the Red Sea , Passing over from thence, they now inhabit
the sea coast of Syria."


John D. Baldwin had it right - “We have seen, in another place, that the whole Asiatic region on the Mediterranean was anciently a part of Ethiopia or the Land of Cush and that Joppa (Iopia), one of the most ancient Phoenician cities, was the royal city of ‘Kepheus the Ethiopian.’ Among the notes to Hamilton and Falconer’s version of Strabo are the following: ‘We have before remarked that the Ethiopia visited by Menelaus was not the country above Egypt, but an Ethiopia lying aroung Jaffa, the ancient ‘Joppa’ Again: The name of Ethiopians, given by Ephorus to fugitive Canaanites, confirms what we have before stated, that the environs of Jaffa, and possibly the entire of Palestine, anciently bore the name of Ethiopia… The most ancient Greeks in their writings and traditions knew nothing of that name Phoenicians, but they did know and use such names as Ethiopians, Sidonians, and Aradians. Ethiopia was the term most commonly applied to the country afterwards called Phoenicia; and this term as an appellation to describe some of the communities and districts that were under Phoenician control, did not pass out of use until after the beginning of the Christian Era.” p. 133-134 Pre-Historic Nations or Inquiries Concerning Some of the Great Peoples 1874

---

What was happening in the Mahgreb after the Capsian culture of the green sahara and before the Punics/Greeks?
There were no civlizations in the Mahreb at this time.
Settlements, what are they? let's get busy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

After the drying of the Sahara the Phoenicians whose history beginning in what is now Lebanon ...

---

Says who? Phoenician7?

Lebanese historian Albert Hourani once said, "Kamal Salibi is the foremost living historian of Lebanon". Salibi, a Christian and author of, A House of Many Mansions - The History of Lebanon Reconsidered, using an old gazeteer of Arabia provided hard to refute evidence of where hundreds of the earliest names of the towns and villages of Phoenicia, Mizraim, the Israelites and Philistines - were located and where they remain in his book, The Bible Came from Arabia.

Salibi was a die-hard practical realist. According to a news spokesman he once uttered - "'After life is nothing,'... It is the end. We are dust.'"

Although I can't agree with his assessment on life and death, until someone can explain why 85 percent of the place and town names found in the Hebrew Bible and Amarna records are found no place else IN THE WORLD in their logistically correspondent, geographically proper places but in southern Arabia and Hijaz, I will have to go with his conclusions on these historical topics.

When regarded in the light of a Syrian locale of Canaan and other Biblical places the historicity of the Bible becomes rather incoherent, inexplicable and unpersuasive. however the Arabian geographical situation fits rather nicely.

Sorry that I am not a nationalist in outlook, and I thank you for your consideration of this matter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
In Words...
====


The fact that these traces(Sub-Saharan) have been detected in the entirety of the northern shore as well, from Spain (10%) to Turkey (9.4%), reinforces the hypothesis that gene flow in this region is probably linked to the first ancient trans-Mediterranean navigations and that has been maintained and homogenized

=====
in pictures:

===

EUROPEANS STEALING AFRICAN LAND AND HISTORY!!!

---

If there are lies being told what is your basic true statement?
You are giving us all this a-ha but what are you claiming precisely?

In regard to this cirlced area can you give us a concise statement or couple of about the truth of history in that area?

I assume you are talking about "history" rather than prehistory, hostory being basically the period of the first witten record/civilization in the Maghreb

You are showing the Nuragic civilization was a civilization of Sardinia, not even on the continent of Africa

In the Stone Age the island was inhabited by people who had arrived there in the Palaeolithic and Neolithic ages from several parts of Europe and the Mediterranean area. The most ancient settlements have been discovered both in Gallura and central Sardinia; later several cultures developed in the island, such as the Ozieri culture.



The Bonnanaro Culture develops in its more ancient phase (1800 - 1500 B. C.) in the Bronze Age, which is characterized by a ceramic in greater part unadorned and with very particular handles. In this period the megalithic burials evolve into a kind of grave with a lengthened room, preamble to the typical nuraghic burial: the "giants' grave."

The real beginning of the Nuraghic Civilization goes back to the final phase of the Bonnanaro's Culture, which will developing uninterruptedly up to the VI century B.C., enduring in some areas, till the Roman conquest.

In addition to the nuraghic, the "corridors" (or protonuraghis) and "tholos" (simple or complex nature), the nuraghic civilization produced a remarkable architectural development: civil (villages), religious (sacred wells, sacred sources, small temples "in antis") and funereal (giants' graves).

The productions of the "bronze statuettes" dates to the Iron Age, they are "ex-voto" and represent animals, nacelles and other objects of the various nuraghic world. The mines' exploitation was of course the principal resource of this period: close to the figured bronzes, there is a production of weapons, utensils and various objects in bronze, having few equals in the rest of the Mediterranean.The metal of the Island was also the incentive pushing Cretan, Mycenean, Cypriot merchants and, subsequently, Phoenician to attend Sardinia, establishing at the beginning seasonal and later stable ports. Through the Phoenician commercial ports had origin cities as Karalis, Sulci, Nora and Bithia from which (under the control of Carthage) will start the punic conquest of the island, in the VI century B.C.. In the 238 B.C., after the I punic war, Sardinia will pass under the Roman dominion, but the conquest of the island, after various native revolts, can be considered only concluded in the I century B. C.. Sardinia became Roman province in the Imperial Epoch and saw a notable development of urban centers and road system.
The Bonnanaro culture is a protohistoric culture that flourished in Sardinia during the 2nd millennium BC (1800-1600 BC), considered as the first stadium of the Nuragic civilization. The

Bonnanaro culture had been described by scholars as the Sardinian regionalization of the pan-European Bell Beaker culture with some influences from the Polada culture of northern Italy.
The Bonnanaro culture is the last evolution of the Beaker culture in Sardinia (c. 1800 BC), and shows several similarities with the Bronze-Age Polada culture of northern Italy.



The Bell-Beaker culture (sometimes shortened to Beaker culture, Beaker people, or Beaker folk; German: Glockenbecherkultur), ca. 2800 – 1800 BC, is the term for a widely scattered cultural phenomenon of prehistoric western Europe starting in the late Neolithic or Chalcolithic running into the early Bronze Age. The term was coined by John Abercromby, based on their distinctive pottery drinking vessels.

The earliest form of Bell Beaker called the Maritime Bell Beaker probably originated in the vibrant copper-using communities of the Tagus estuary in Portugal around 2800 - 2700 BC and spread from there to many parts of western Europe.
a review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe, which showed that the earliest dates for Bell Beaker were 2900 BC in Iberia.


xyymman, look at this:

DNATribes Iberian Penninsula

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008391
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/salibi.html

Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. )
Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101


THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/salibi.html

Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. )
Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101


THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/salibi.html

Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. )
Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101


THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!

---

They stiil havn't paid me for us for that piece

dana you rep historical revisionists. alternative theorists, Kamal Salibi and Wesley Muhammad Williams who thinks Allah is was a man.
come on daughter

---

And then you woke up RIGHT?!


On second thought, considering the dim-witted nature of this mostly rhetorical response - maybe u did throw it together.lol!

"Then what about people like the Moabites who we have clear evidence for in things like the Moabite stone, found right where we would expect? Again, easily explained (too easily): Actually the Moabites used to live down in Arabia too, but the Israelites defeated them badly, so they moved to Palestine to get away from them and then carved the Moabite Stone. "


But na-a-ah, I'll have to go with my first thought and say once a plagiar _SS ,always a plagiara_ _.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
dana, do you have evidence that berber such as the Kayble or Mozabite bereberized significant numbers of European slaves and integrated them into their popualations?

---

First off which Kabyle and Mozabite or you talking about the ones that speak Berber and mixed with them or the ones that still look like Berbers and who have had their heritage misappropriated by the likes of you.

I never said the 80,000 Vandals, Rhoxalan Scythians and earlier Romans who lived and settled in Kabylia, or the 7th century Persians who settled in the Ilam Berber region came there as slaves - now did I, Your Lyin'_SS?

"Yodel-leh-hee yodel-lee-eee-oooh!"

---

I would put Phoenicians at the top of the list.
also some Greeks, thanks dane

---

quote:

---

The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


Founder mutations in Tunisia: implications for diagnosis in North Africa and Middle East

Lilia Romdhane et al.

quote:

---

The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.

---

[/QB]

---

yes but that who were they? there seems to be no evidence in the Mahgreb of a settlement after the Capsian which ended 6000 BC and before the Punics. I'm guessing there were small groups of nomads in the region, groups which Herodotus mentions.

Perhaps analgous to the American Indians, indigenous people were soon displaced by much larger migrations of
Phoenicians, cities beginning with Uttica
far prior to the islamic conquest of the Maghreb

Phoenician cities:

Algeria

Tipaza

Libya

Oia
Sabratha
Leptis Magna - major city on the Libyan coastline

Morocco

Lixus
Mogador
Tangier


Tunisia


Utica
Carthage
Hadrumetum
Leptis Parva
Thapsus
Kerkouane
Zama Regia


Ruins of Uttica, Tunisia
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:




. Do people of Basque descent and "African Americans" or light-skinned Kola Boof look-a-likes all look alike - Your LYIN' _SS?

I should think not.

---

the guy's Tunisian

---

This girl is Tunisian also.



So where does that leave you?
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/salibi.html

Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. )
Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101


THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!

---

They stiil havn't paid me for us for that piece

dana you rep historical revisionists. alternative theorists, Kamal Salibi and Wesley Muhammad Williams who thinks Allah is was a man.
come on daughter

---

If you believe that about Wesley the next course I will recommend to you is Reading for Context 101. I'd suggest that as an introductory college course as it will enable you to read the legal docs you will get in your law class introducing the ramifications of PLAGIARISM.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


Founder mutations in Tunisia: implications for diagnosis in North Africa and Middle East

Lilia Romdhane et al.

quote:

---

The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.

---

---

yes but that who were they? there seems to be no evidence in the Mahgreb of a settlement after the Capsian which ended 6000 BC and before the Punics. I'm guessing there were small groups of nomads in the region, groups which Herodotus mentions.

Perhaps analgous to the American Indians, indigenous people were soon displaced by much larger migrations of
Phoenicians, cities beginning with Uttica
far prior to the islamic conquest of the Maghreb

Phoenician cities:

Algeria

Tipaza

Libya

Oia
Sabratha
Leptis Magna - major city on the Libyan coastline

Morocco

Lixus
Mogador
Tangier


Tunisia


Utica
Carthage
Hadrumetum
Leptis Parva
Thapsus
Kerkouane
Zama Regia


Ruins of Uttica, Tunisia [/QB]

---

Modern locals, as before.









PLoS One. 2010; 5(2): e9177.

Skeletal Remains from Punic Carthage Do Not Support Systematic Sacrifice of Infants

Jeffrey H. Schwartz et al.

quote:

---

Some biblical scholars maintain that the Carthaginians frequently and systematically practiced infant sacrifice perhaps as early as Queen Dido's founding of the Phoenician colony on the northern coast of Africa in the 9th or 8th century BCE until 146 BCE, when the Romans won the third and last Punic War [1]–[5].

---

Phoenician Blood Endures 3,000 Years, DNA Study Shows

quote:

---

Ancient maritime traders (shown above in an illustration) may have left behind a large genetic footprint around the Mediterranean, with 1 in 17 men in the region still harboring Phoenician DNA, according to a new study.


The findings could fill a missing gap in the history of the Phoenician civilization, and help geneticists understand the genetic impact of other human migrations, experts said in October 2008.

---

quote:

---

No more than 20 percent of the Tunisian men sampled were found to be carrying Y-chromosomes that could have originated in ancient Phoenicia. Actually, most men were found to be carrying “the aboriginal North African [gene], M96."

---

http://www.ulcm.org/in-the-news---culture-literature-and-books/2012/09/29/rediscovering-ancient-phoenicia-the-truth-behind-phoenician-identity-in-the-mediterranean


As posted before.


 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
LYIN_SS or should we say Plagiar _SS - did you write that on tektonics or are you going to insist on pretending you have something new or scholarly to add to this forum.

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/salibi.html

Please cease and desist from posting others researched information or statements (no matter how uninformed or thought-out) without quotes. (Looks like you learned a lot from Hammered Down. )
Course prerequisite for you - International Law 101/ English Composition 101


THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION OF THIS MATTER!

---

They stiil havn't paid me for us for that piece

dana you rep historical revisionists. alternative theorists, Kamal Salibi and Wesley Muhammad Williams who thinks Allah is was a man.
come on daughter

---

If you believe that about Wesley the next course I will recommend to you is Reading for Context 101. I'd suggest that as an introductory college course as it will enable you to read the legal docs you will get in your law class introducing the ramifications of PLAGIARISM.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ I grasp it and it's a clearly explained wrong interpretation of Islam to say Allah was a man

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^^ I grasp it and it's a clearly explained wrong interpretation of Islam to say Allah was a man

---

So, now you have become the expert in Islamic history and scholarship.

Before Allah became as we know it now, Allah was a deity amongst many. So, where does that leave you now? LOL
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
How did the conversation shift to Islam?? LOL

Anyway here are some recent photos of Tunisians.

Tunisian women and girl:



A Tunisian woman and grandchildren:



Two politicians. Guess which one is Tunisian!:


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Norwegians, the music group Queendom
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Norwegians, the music group Queendom

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:


Founder mutations in Tunisia: implications for diagnosis in North Africa and Middle East

Lilia Romdhane et al.

quote:

---

The Punic era initiated with the arrival of Phoenician traders from the eastern Mediterranean Sea and was marked by the founding of the City of Carthage on 814 BC (present Tunis). For many centuries, the Punic civilization either displaced the native Berbers to the city periphery or integrated them.

---

---

yes but that who were they? there seems to be no evidence in the Mahgreb of a settlement after the Capsian which ended 6000 BC and before the Punics. I'm guessing there were small groups of nomads in the region, groups which Herodotus mentions.

Perhaps analgous to the American Indians, indigenous people were soon displaced by much larger migrations of
Phoenicians, cities beginning with Uttica
far prior to the islamic conquest of the Maghreb

---

quote:

---

The Garamantes flourished in southwestern Libya, in the core of the Sahara Desert ~3,000 years ago and largely controlled trans-Saharan trade. Their biological affinities to other North African populations, including the Egyptian, Algerian, Tunisian and Sudanese, roughly contemporary to them, are examined by means of cranial nonmetric traits using the Mean Measure of Divergence and Mahalanobis D(2) distance. The aim is to shed light on the extent to which the Sahara Desert inhibited extensive population movements and gene flow. Our results show that the Garamantes possess distant affinities to their neighbors. This relationship may be due to the Central Sahara forming a barrier among groups, despite the archaeological evidence for extended networks of contact. The role of the Sahara as a barrier is further corroborated by the significant correlation between the Mahalanobis D(2) distance and geographic distance between the Garamantes and the other populations under study. In contrast, no clear pattern was observed when all North African populations were examined, indicating that there was no uniform gene flow in the region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Read this carefully:

__________________________________________________


Since most of the languages spoken in North Africa and in nearby parts of Asia belong to the Afro-Asiatic family (Ruhlen 1991), this expansion could have involved people speaking a proto–Afro-Asiatic language.

These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.

Under the hypothesis of a Neolithic demic expansion from the Middle East, the likely origin of E3b in East Africa could indicate either a local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition (Barker 2003) or an earlier migration into the Fertile Crescent, preceding the expansion back into Africa.

In conclusion, we propose that the Y-chromosomal genetic structure observed in North Africa is mainly the result of an expansion of early food-producing societies.


A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

Barbara Arredi,1 2004

_________________________________________________

M81 is a mutation that arose after other migration previous to it

E-M81 is restricted to northern Africa. The haplogroup is not found in sub-Saharan Africa.

E-M81 is rare (1.9%), and the southernmost finding of E-M81 chromosomes on the continent is that here reported in the Tuareg from Niger (9.1%), yet 90-100% in certain Tunisian populations.
Basques; 12.2% in southern Portuguese; and 41.1% in the Pasiegos from Cantabria.

we estimated for haplogroup E-M81 and the lack of differentiation between European and African haplotypes in the network of E-M81 (fig. 2C) support the hypothesis of recent gene flow between northwestern Africa and Iberia. In this context, our data refine the conclusions of Bosch et al. (2001) in two ways. First, not all of the E3b chromosomes in Iberia can be regarded as a signature of African gene flow into the peninsula

Phylogeographic Analysis of Haplogroup E3b (E-M215) Y Chromosomes Reveals Multiple Migratory Events Within and Out Of Africa
Fulvio Cruciani,


^^^ you readin this xyyman?

---

quote:

---

E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).

---

And I already elaborated on Afrasan, with a study done recently, as of 2008. Other recent studies also confirm an East African root for the Afrasan phylum, certainly proto-Afrasan. As posted before.







 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms, 2011.

Beniamino Trombetta et al.

The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1*(E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics.

Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257 [...] However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.




Haplogroup E1b1 which is characterized by a high degree of internal diversity is the most represented Y chromosome haplogroup in Africa. Here we report on the characterization of 12 mutations within this haplogroup, eleven of which were discovered in the course of a resequencing and genotyping project performed in our laboratory. There are several changes compared to the most recently published Y chromosome tree [2]. Haplogroup E1b1 now contains two basal branches, E-V38 (E1b1a) and E-M215 (E1b1b), with V38/V100 joining the two previously separated lineages E-M2 (former E1b1a) and E-M329 (former E1b1c). Each of these two lineages has a peculiar geographic distribution. E-M2 is the most common haplogroup in sub-Saharan Africa, with frequency peaks in western (about 80%) and central Africa (about 60%).
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Tissue Antigens. 2010 Nov;76(5):416-20. doi: 10.1111/j.1399-0039.2010.01534.x.
Polymorphism of HLA class II genes in Berbers from Southern

Tunisia.
Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Buhler S, Dridi A, Benammar El Gaaied A, Sanchez-Mazas A.

Source
Laboratory of Genetics, Immunology and Human Pathologies Faculty of Science of Tunis, University Tunis El Manar, Tunisia.

Abstract

quote:

---

In this study, the HLA-DRB1 and -DQB1 molecular diversity of two Berber-speaking populations of Southern Tunisia was analysed. Genetic comparisons indicate that both populations exhibit peculiar profiles for HLA-DRB1, as they diverge significantly from most other North Africans, while being highly diversified. At the opposite, they are much less differentiated from neighbouring populations according to the HLA-DQB1 polymorphism. Overall, the HLA class II genetic structure of Arab and Berber-speaking populations from Tunisia, and of North Africa as a whole, is complex and cannot be simply explained by geographic or linguistic differentiations. The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of genetically heterogeneous populations during the history of settlement of North Africa.

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Slow down TP. The Lioness only understand pictographs. Abstracts confuses him. You have any pictures? btw. Great citations. Anyone can see NAians have been continuosly migrating into southern Europe.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
How did the conversation shift to Islam?? LOL

Anyway here are some recent photos of Tunisians.

Tunisian women and girl:



A Tunisian woman and grandchildren:



Two politicians. Guess which one is Tunisian!:

---

Very interesting photos Djehuti.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Presidents of of Tunisia

Moncef Marzouki

Ben Ali



Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Presidents of of Tunisia

Moncef Marzouki

Ben Ali



Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective

---

Wow Lyin _SS - why were you so offended that there was a dark brown political importance shaking hands with Mrs. Clinton.

BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it.

---

I think the dark skinned people Djehutie put up are beautiful but you need to follow the aguments being made in this thread.

You say : everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa.

You are of the opinion that the Magheb is primarily Arab.
The charcteristic haplogoup of Arabs is J.
That aside, xyyman and Troll do no think the Maghreb is primarily Arab. They cite some articles saying things like some Tunisians are 100% "Maghrebian" genetically, the "berber gene"
They think it is primarily African and that Maghrebians like Tunisians, Libyans Algerians etc. on average are more related to Sahelans than they are to Arabs/Levantines/Turks/Portugese.
All the pie charts from DNATribes that you said you agreed with earlier, they disagree with.
I disagree and think they are misinterpreting these articles [/QB]

---

I didn't say anything about the Maghrebians being Arab, LYin _ss. In any case, that is a nationality today in my view. If you are talking about their Levant origins that is a different thing, and is obviously not the equivalent of "Arab". I do believe a considerable portion of the genes of the millions of people that entered North Africa and Spain from the Levant show up in the modern inhabitants of the Northern Maghreb.

Considering the numbers of people that have settled in North Africa, the maghreb is obviously not purely anything. And, I do think the pie charts reflect the diverse origins of the peoples of modern North Africa including Berber-speakers -objectively, though maybe not perfectly - especially in its northern region.

I'm sure the southern parts of the Maghreb including Berber-speaking Maghreb are occupied by the peoples of more-or-less Sahelian affiliation, i.e. remnants of the original or less modified Berbers.

Is that OK with you?

BTW - maybe you'd better sign up for that read for context class right away.

Didn't Troll Patrol just post this -
"The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of GENETICALLY HETEROGENEOUS populations during the history of settlement of North Africa."
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ There is a contradiction in his posts and going on in various articles that goes back to my old thread

'Mozabite Berbers are 80% African, doc says'



_________________________________________________^

for example, xyyman and Troll look at the figure for E1b1b1b

The is the MB1 mutation

they are using these figures all over 70% (except Siwa)

and they are saying that these populations are indigenous Africa to those 70 + degrees. Taking that at face value, these particalar figures for that haplogroup, example, Mozabites is even high than Doc's 80, it's 86.6
I ask you are modern Mozabites 80+ indigenous African?
How about Middle Atlas Morocco? On average are they 77.6 indigenous African?
But yet Siwa 1.1 ?

This interpreation doesn't make sense.
M81 E1b1b1b is simply a mutation that occured after earlier migrations that have been noted by Henn and others

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]What was happening in the Mahgreb after the Capsian culture of the green sahara and before the Punics/Greeks?
There were no civlizations in the Mahreb at this time.
Settlements, what are they?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Glad we finally agree something. Always a third time. Can't be any settlements where there aren't any people, can there.

---

^^^^ the term here "Saharan Arabian" has a magical effect on xyyman as if the word "Arabian" disappears when it is placed behind the word " Saharan"
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.



 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 

quote:

---

These people could have carried, among others, the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation arose within North Africa and expanded along with the Neolithic population into an environment containing few humans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Of course E-M81 is a mutation caused by genetic drift. The parent clade is E-M78, E-M78 is the child clade of E-M35. E-M78 and E-M3 are rooted where?LOL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
I didn't say anything about the Maghrebians being Arab, LYin _ss. In any case, that is a nationality today in my view. If you are talking about their Levant origins that is a different thing, and is obviously not the equivalent of "Arab". I do believe a considerable portion of the genes of the millions of people that entered North Africa and Spain from the Levant show up in the modern inhabitants of the Northern Maghreb.

Considering the numbers of people that have settled in North Africa, the maghreb is obviously not purely anything. And, I do think the pie charts reflect the diverse origins of the peoples of modern North Africa including Berber-speakers -objectively, though maybe not perfectly - especially in its northern region.

I'm sure the southern parts of the Maghreb including Berber-speaking Maghreb are occupied by the peoples of more-or-less Sahelian affiliation, i.e. remnants of the original or less modified Berbers.

Is that OK with you?

BTW - maybe you'd better sign up for that read for context class right away.

Didn't Troll Patrol just post this -
"The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of GENETICALLY HETEROGENEOUS populations during the history of settlement of North Africa."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Of course E-M81 is a mutation caused by genetic drift. The parent clade is E-M78, E-M78 is the child clade of E-M35. E-M78 and E-M3 are rooted where?LOL

---

To be precise. E-M78 is not the the parent clade of E-M81. Both E-M81 and E-M78 haplogroup are children of the E-M35 parent haplogroup.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The vast majority of genetic reserach within the last 3 years have confirmed exactly what I am proposing.

The citation(Trombetta) above by TP led me to a 1/2 dozen more today.

North Africans migrated to southern Europe. The kicker is..they navigated to these lands long before Europeans knew how to sail. They were the frist to colonize the Canaries, thousand of years before Europeans.

The Africans populated Arabia, South Europe and the Levant. They were ventually pushed out or exterminated or assimilated. I can cite close to 50 papers that cite the same premise. Even read one today by Cruciani, yes the bigot Cruciani, that admitted to such. ie African migrants occupied Sardinia and Anatolia pre-neolithic. He basicaly admit that the agricultural revolution could possibly also come from North Africa to Sardinia then onto Europe and not necessarily through the Anatolia.

Genetic evidence essentialy confirms migration was one way up until the bronze age.

---

look at the legend carefully.

The first people in Europe:
come in from the North
M173 30kya

the first in Anatolia much later
by way of Egypt not Gibralter
M172 10 kya

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness I know you want traffic. But Look at the land mass designated West Asia according to DNATribes. It IS the Levant, Turkey etc. NOT Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I know you are mathematically challenged but I thought you had a better handle on geography.

BTW - DNA Tribes references SNPs, not STR and HG.

J2 maybe Levantine but J1 is not. Point of origin for J1 is contradictory either Yemen or Ethiopia. Either way J1 is Black owned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness I know you want traffic. But Look at the land mass designated West Asia according to DNATribes. It IS the Levant, Turkey etc. NOT Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I know you are mathematically challenged but I thought you had a better handle on geography.

BTW - DNA Tribes references SNPs, not STR and HG.

J2 maybe Levantine but J1 is not. Point of origin for J1 is contradictory either Yemen or Ethiopia. Either way J1 is Black owned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:



Norwegians, the music group Queendom

---

LMAO

Lyinass translation: my example of modern black Norwegians above are obviously not indigenous Norwegians, therefore Djehuti's post of modern black Tunisians must not be indigenous Tunisians.

Yet Tunisia is in Africa NOT Europe. Therefore who else but blacks are indigenous to Tunisia??

Here are ancient Roman mosaic depictions of Tunisian natives.




I guess the Romans were mistaken on who the natives were as well. LOL
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass twit,:

Presidents of of Tunisia


Moncef Marzouki

Ben Ali

Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective

---

LMAOH @ this lyinass idiot. B|tch, which Tunisians I posted look 'Sahelian' or 'West African'??! Practically all the black Tunisians I posted look NORTH African and nothing like stereotypical peoples of the Sahel of Guinea region! You accuse me of cherry picking when I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia when YOU post pictures of presidents!! How many times must we tell your lyingass that presidents and other political elite nowadays look NOTHING like the indigenes. This is true in North Africa as it is in Latin America! Moncef Marzouki maybe an exception though he is still somewhat in the lighter side. Get your lyinass outta here!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Of course E-M81 is a mutation caused by genetic drift. The parent clade is E-M78, E-M78 is the child clade of E-M35. E-M78 and E-M3 are rooted where?LOL

Hence:

quote:

---

E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).

---

And I already elaborated on Afrasan, with a study done recently, as of 2008. Other recent studies also confirm an East African root for the Afrasan phylum, certainly proto-Afrasan. As posted before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

Tissue Antigens. 2010 Nov;76(5):416-20. doi: 10.1111/j.1399-0039.2010.01534.x.
Polymorphism of HLA class II genes in Berbers from Southern

Tunisia.
Fadhlaoui-Zid K, Buhler S, Dridi A, Benammar El Gaaied A, Sanchez-Mazas A.

Source
Laboratory of Genetics, Immunology and Human Pathologies Faculty of Science of Tunis, University Tunis El Manar, Tunisia.

Abstract

quote:

---

In this study, the HLA-DRB1 and -DQB1 molecular diversity of two Berber-speaking populations of Southern Tunisia was analysed. Genetic comparisons indicate that both populations exhibit peculiar profiles for HLA-DRB1, as they diverge significantly from most other North Africans, while being highly diversified. At the opposite, they are much less differentiated from neighbouring populations according to the HLA-DQB1 polymorphism. Overall, the HLA class II genetic structure of Arab and Berber-speaking populations from Tunisia, and of North Africa as a whole, is complex and cannot be simply explained by geographic or linguistic differentiations. The present North African genetic pool has probably been shaped by both genetic drift and the contribution of genetically heterogeneous populations during the history of settlement of North Africa.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:



How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see

---

That's because the genetic history of the Maghreb and that of northeast Africa are different. We told your dumb ass this many times before but you never listen. Siwa may be Berbers but they are NOT Maghrebis; they are northeast Africans, specifically Egyptians!!

Your simple mind keeps identifying Berber with Maghreb when the two are not inclusive! This explains why you try to postulate Maghrebi genetic origins with those of ancient and predynastic Temehu even though Temehu are Egyptian also and not Maghrebi.


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


Yet Tunisia is in Africa NOT Europe. Therefore who else but blacks are indigenous to Tunisia??

---

Who is indigenous is not at issue on this particular point.
There are some blacks in Norway if you were to do a pie chart of DNA for average Norwegians blacks would occupy a small sliver
of that chart. Likewise if we are to look at another population indigenous Americans take up a small sliver of a modern American chart.
Now maybe the native Americans should get their land back. However that politics has no bearing on the genetic percentage contribution to the modern poulation as a whole.
DNATribes has such a charts. For the Sahel they are indicated primarily African, tropical West, Great lakes and Horn and with some contributions from outside of Africa.
But the North African region which they analzed the Maghebian portion of it on the whole, considering the entrie popualtion is not primarily indigenous to the extent of Paleolithic.
Since different waves of migrations came in as noted by Henn and others a unique mutation M81 has occured and is set aprt now from both European and SSA affinities. this is attributed to isolation and drift.
It should be obvious that when you look at Tunsian berbers, some of whom have the highest percenatges of this so called berber marker they are not as African looking as some other berbers. If that hap was indigenous the South Moroccans would have the highest percenatges of it. In fact they and the Siwa even more, relative to other berbers have the lowest percentages it - that should tell you something,
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ And how many times must we tell you that phenotype does NOT necessarily correlate with genotype or genetic marker. About a quarter of Greeks carry African lineages as well yet those that do don't look African either! In the mean time there are many African Americans who carry European paternal lineages from slavery times yet look no different from blacks in West Africa! Look what kind of lineage this Scottish man has.

As another example...



^ Note the frequency of African lineages among 'Arab' Egyptians of Cairo. How many of these Arabs actually look African?? Apparently not many according to their discrimination against blacks and their disdain for dark skin.

Do you not understand the implications of phenotype not correlating to genetic lineage?! I thought this was made clear to you years ago when your lyinass first showed up in this forum!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia

---

that's why you're an idiot, the masses are in cities and these analysis are based on the population as a whole.

The looks of some rural the people is not the same as Sahelins, they're halfway between them an th average Tunisians, you dope relatively more SSA
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The same holds true for Egypt! Yet who resembles ancient Egyptians more? Rural folks like Baladi from Giza or urban folks like uptown Cairene Arabs. BOTH may share the same African lineages yet they differ radically in looks. What does that say about YOUR claims, you dummy?!
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

















One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
Interesting post.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see

---

quote:

---

E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it.

---

I think the dark skinned people Djehutie put up are beautiful but you need to follow the aguments being made in this thread.

You say : everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa.

You are of the opinion that the Magheb is primarily Arab.
The charcteristic haplogoup of Arabs is J.
That aside, xyyman and Troll do no think the Maghreb is primarily Arab. They cite some articles saying things like some Tunisians are 100% "Maghrebian" genetically, the "berber gene"
They think it is primarily African and that Maghrebians like Tunisians, Libyans Algerians etc. on average are more related to Sahelans than they are to Arabs/Levantines/Turks/Portugese.
All the pie charts from DNATribes that you said you agreed with earlier, they disagree with.
I disagree and think they are misinterpreting these articles [/QB]

---

The Magreb is a complex region, there are many ethnic groups. The people as posted by Djehuti are mostly at the South. Of the Magreb, while the people you're showing are mostly at the North at coastal regions. These Northern regions had invasions, which explains the admixture.

And Djehuti is correct, the people you post up could be of Arab or Turkish descent, or even Spanish or Portuguese, since there have been colonies by them as well.


Turkish Nationals Leaving Libya as Turmoil Escalates

quote:

---

With the crisis continuing to deepen in Libya, Turkey's prime minister has announced mass evacuation measures to remove thousands of Turks from the country. Hundreds of Turks have already fled the country.

Every day brings plane loads of Turks escaping the turmoil in Libya. Arriving at Istanbul's main airport, many of them have grim stories to tell, like this man: "At night it was very violent," he said. "We could hear the gunshots. We could see the clouds of smoke, All the Turks are worried."

A woman had a similar story. "We live in the center of the city and suddenly there is no police or people in regular uniforms," she said. "There were just people who were shooting with machine guns at everything. I believe many people died."

According to the Turkish government there are nearly 25,000 Turks living in Libya, most of whom are working there.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in his weekly address to parliamentary deputies, said that 800 people had been already been evacuated and a further 2,800 want to leave.

The prime minister said seven planes were ready to leave and two ferryboats escorted by a Turkish frigate, were about to arrive in Libya.

Mr. Erdogan also gave a warning. "I would like to remind both officials and government opponents in Libya to be extremely careful to ensure the security of foreigners in their country," he said. "Taking cruel steps against people voicing their democratic demands will only exacerbate the spiral of violence and threaten the country’s unity."

Unconfirmed Turkish news reports claim Libyan security forces have detained several Turkish nationals, accusing them of being involved in the unrest. Other reports say the nationals are accused of working for Israel. Such reports only add to the anxiety faced by those in Turkey awaiting news from their relatives.

One woman whose family is stranded in Libya said, "They are stuck in the middle of the desert. They are in a dire situation and because they are in the desert nobody knows about their situation."

The Turkish prime minister has until now largely avoided speaking about events in Libya. That is in contrast to his call on the then Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak to step down. But observers say with Turkey having such a large number of nationals living in Libya and having close multi billion dollar trade deals with the country, the prime minister has to tread carefully.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia

---

that's why you're an idiot, the masses are in cities and these analysis are based on the population as a whole.

The looks of some rural the people is not the same as Sahelins, they're halfway between them an th average Tunisians, you dope relatively more SSA

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

---

that they are highly unusual looking for average Maghrebians dumb ass.
They might have been very nice people but in a general analysis of the modern Maghreab would occupy a very small percentage.

You are predictable, you look for any opportunity, same photos from another thread, trying to impress people, hey look at these interesting "black" people I found,
Now relate that to the DNATribes NA region analysis, was the goal to document every obscure ethnicity in the region? Oh so that must mena I hate these people, I'm "dismissing these poor people, get out of here, look at the pie chart, you want like 50 pieces now so we can make every body feel good, go to tishkoff and tell her she left out 2000 tribes from her charts
stop patronizing people and trying to get points
and got mosaic people, posted a million times up don't even look more African than Near Eastern/Med, seen it before. Post something new for once

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Presidents of of Tunisia

Moncef Marzouki

Ben Ali



Habib Bourguiba


If you are looking at who are the vast majority of Tunisians today are,
who is the average Tunisian is, because one can pick out the more West African looking or Sahelian looking Tunisians and because we like West Africans assume most Tunisians look like that and start clapping at the cute kids. That does not mean we are being objective

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ There is a contradiction in his posts and going on in various articles that goes back to my old thread

'Mozabite Berbers are 80% African, doc says'



_________________________________________________^

for example, xyyman and Troll look at the figure for E1b1b1b

The is the MB1 mutation

they are using these figures all over 70% (except Siwa)

and they are saying that these populations are indigenous Africa to those 70 + degrees. Taking that at face value, these particalar figures for that haplogroup, example, Mozabites is even high than Doc's 80, it's 86.6
I ask you are modern Mozabites 80+ indigenous African?
How about Middle Atlas Morocco? On average are they 77.6 indigenous African?
But yet Siwa 1.1 ?

This interpreation doesn't make sense.
M81 E1b1b1b is simply a mutation that occured after earlier migrations that have been noted by Henn and others

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]What was happening in the Mahgreb after the Capsian culture of the green sahara and before the Punics/Greeks?
There were no civlizations in the Mahreb at this time.
Settlements, what are they?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:
Glad we finally agree something. Always a third time. Can't be any settlements where there aren't any people, can there.

---

^^^^ the term here "Saharan Arabian" has a magical effect on xyyman as if the word "Arabian" disappears when it is placed behind the word " Saharan"

---

quote:

---

Originally poested by Troll Patrol:
The Tunisians on average look like Moncef Marzouki, the President of Tunisia.

---

I don't think anybody here is that qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I find that Moncef Marzouki somewhat odd looking.

I put this up earlier:


this is my guess as to what average Tunisians, the majority of people look like, within this range we see.
I think people would have to agree with me the fact that some of have the highest M81 yet the Tunisians berbers are not the most African looking of berbers. It's a very small country in terms of land mass. If you compare it to Libya or Algeria the whole country could be described as "coastal" on a relative basis.
yet their population is 10.6 mil and Libya which looks about ten times larger only has 6.4 mil.
And this follows the pattern of the drying of the sahara
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ reasonable but if you are looking at a pie chart and a section of the chart relates to a genetic affinity the chart is not intended to indicate where in the country such people are. And there are also recent sub saharan migrants.

quote:

---

Originally poested by Troll Patrol:
The Tunisians on average look like Moncef Marzouki, the President of Tunisia.

---

I don't think anybody here is that qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I find that Moncef Marzouki somewhat odd looking.

I put this up earlier:


this is my guess as to what average Tunisians, the majority of people look like, within this range we see.
I think people would have to agree with me the fact that some of have the highest M81 yet the Tunisians berbers are not the most African looking of berbers. It's a very small country in terms of land mass. If you compare it to Libya or Algeria the whole country could be described as "coastal" on a relative basis.
yet their population is 10.6 mil and Libya which looks about ten times larger only has 6.4 mil.
And this follows the pattern of the drying of the sahara

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

















One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL

---

quote:

---

Description: Publication year: 2012 Source:Quaternary International Eleanor M.L. Scerri The Aterian is a frequently cited manifestation of the Middle Stone Age (MSA) of North Africa, yet its character and meaning have remained largely opaque, as attention has focused almost exclusively on the typology of ‘tanged’, or ‘pedunculated’, lithics. Observations of technological similarities between the Aterian and other regional technocomplexes suggest that the Aterian should be considered within the wider context of the North African MSA and not as an isolated phenomenon. This paper critically reviews the meaning and history of research of the Aterian. This highlights a number of serious issues with definitions and interpretations of this technocomplex, ranging from a lack of definitional consensus to problems with the common view of the Aterian as a ‘desert adaptation’. Following this review, the paper presents the results of a quantitative study of six North African MSA assemblages (Aterian, Nubian Complex and ‘MSA’). Correspondence and Principal Components Analyses are applied, which suggest that the patterns of similarity and difference demonstrated do not simplistically correlate with traditional divisions between named industries. These similarity patterns are instead structured geographically and it is suggested that they reflect a population differentiation that cannot be explained by isolation and distance alone. Particular results include the apparent uniqueness of Haua Fteah compared to all the other assemblages and the observation that the Aterian in northeast Africa is more similar to the Nubian in that region than to the Aterian in the Maghreb. The study demonstrates the existence of population structure in the North African MSA, which has important implications for t he evolutionary dynamics of modern human dispersals.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Great post of picture. This is what I visualize the Berbers look like..Never been there but most likely these are the people researchers test as indigenous North Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

















One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.

---

I agree that the South of Arabia is an extension of Africa. Dana has posted an amount of this, from a historic perspective. And we now have the Nubian complex.


Does DNA-tribe mean E-M81 by " Saharan-Arabian", because this would seem most logic compared to the info I've posted, when looking at the values and percentages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Lioness I know you want traffic. But Look at the land mass designated West Asia according to DNATribes. It IS the Levant, Turkey etc. NOT Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I know you are mathematically challenged but I thought you had a better handle on geography.

BTW - DNA Tribes references SNPs, not STR and HG.

J2 maybe Levantine but J1 is not. Point of origin for J1 is contradictory either Yemen or Ethiopia. Either way J1 is Black owned.

---

J1 developed in the Southern Levant and is likely "Semitic" in origin. It has remained situated primarily in Middle Eastern populations and in Northern African Arab populations. Rare in Europeans, with the exception of Jewish Europeans, who have it at a frequency of 14-18%.

Haplogroup J-P209 is believed to have arisen roughly 31,700 years ago in Southwest Asia (31,700±12,800 years ago according to Semino 2004).


Origin, diffusion, and differentiation of Y-chromosome haplogroups E and J: inferences on the neolithization of Europe and later migratory events in the Mediterranean area.

Semino O, Magri C, Benuzzi G, Lin AA, Al-Zahery N, Battaglia V, Maccioni L, Triantaphyllidis C, Shen P, Oefner PJ, Zhivotovsky LA, King R, Torroni A, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS.
Source
Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universita di Pavia, 27100 Pavia, Italy. semino@ipvgen.unipv.it

Abstract
The phylogeography of Y-chromosome haplogroups E (Hg E) and J (Hg J) was investigated in >2400 subjects from 29 populations, mainly from Europe and the Mediterranean area but also from Africa and Asia. The observed 501 Hg E and 445 Hg J samples were subtyped using 36 binary markers and eight microsatellite loci. Spatial patterns reveal that (1). the two sister clades, J-M267 and J-M172, are distributed differentially within the Near East, North Africa, and Europe; (2). J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people; (3). E-M81 is typical of Berbers, and its presence in Iberia and Sicily is due to recent gene flow from North Africa; (4). J-M172(xM12) distribution is consistent with a Levantine/Anatolian dispersal route to southeastern Europe and may reflect the spread of Anatolian farmers; and (5). E-M78 (for which microsatellite data suggest an eastern African origin) and, to a lesser extent, J-M12(M102) lineages would trace the subsequent diffusion of people from the southern Balkans to the west. A 7%-22% contribution of Y chromosomes from Greece to southern Italy was estimated by admixture analysis.

M81 reveals recent gene flow from North Africa. Distinct histories of J-M267* lineages are suggested: an expansion from the Middle East toward East Africa and Europe and a more-recent diffusion (marked by the YCAIIa-22/YCAIIb-22 motif) of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa

---

quote:

---

However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Here is the complete table(2013).
This is what I am going by.
Essentially, insignificant, close to zero %, Levantine/West Asian SNP in indigenous North Africa.

And Yes, South Arabia, is an extension of the Sahara. That is the only land mass where there is an introgression of North Anatolians.

The Levantine and South Europe were also an extension of Africa. Think metropolitan Africa.

---

I agree that the South of Arabia is an extension of Africa. Dana has posted an amount of this, from a historic perspective. And we now have the Nubian complex.


Does DNA-tribe mean E-M81 by " Saharan-Arabian", because this would seem most logic compared to the info I've posted, when looking at the values and percentages.

---

It's disappointing to see this error continuing. The chart is not describing a spread from each of these regions.
What is listed as "Saharan Arabian" does not mean the intent behind these charts is to show a flow from the Sahahra to Arabia. One look at the history one of the incoming migrations was a major contribution coming in from Arabia with the Islamic conquests of the Maghreb.
it is an admixture chart. That means contributions coming in from without not spreading from.
This chart is not an OOA chart it is a descritpion of the make upo of the modern day Maghreb and an influx of variety of Arabs and Arabized ethnicities incl Syrians etc. moving across the region beginnng with Egypt. As well Portugese in the region and a Phoenician cities centuries before

If you want to go that route just eleminate the Levant and Arabia and call it North East Africa. You know more about genetics than dana does and as for history she has recently been advocating an author who belives that the bible took place in Arabia, the Phoenicians were really form Arabia, there were two Jesus', they both came from Arabia and the guy running the show was a human being named Allah.

That's why I'm needed. I can sniff out that stuff like catnip

---

quote:

---

"Particularly, Yemen has the largest contribution of L lineages (30). So, most probably, this area was the entrance gate of a portion of these lineages in prehistoric times, which participated in the building of the primitive Arabian population."

---

quote:

---

The first hint of the Nubian Complex extending into southern Arabia was documented by Inizan and Ortlieb [31], who illustrate three cores from Wadi Muqqah in western Hadramaut, Yemen, with Nubian Type 1 and Type 2 technological features. More recently, Crassard [32] presents a handful of Levallois point cores exhibiting Nubian Type 1 preparation from Wadi Wa'shah, central Hadramaut, Yemen.

---

quote:

---

Two pathways are commonly considered: the northern dispersal route postulates population movement from northeast Africa across the Sinai Peninsula into the Levant through the ‘Levantine Corridor.’ Alternatively (or concurrently), the southern dispersal route describes a demographic expansion through the ‘Arabian Corridor’, from the Horn of Africa across the southern Red Sea into Yemen.

---

quote:

---

Subsequent population bottlenecks from MIS 4 to MIS 2 are likely to have culled most of the founding populations in Arabia, which might be consistent with the rare presence of undifferentiated L3* lineages in Yemen [100]. Moreover, traces of the primarily East African haplogroup L4 have been reported in southern Arabia, with coalescence age estimates around 95 ka [98]. Unfortunately, little is known of this clade at present; too few L4 haplotypes have been observed to draw any conclusive phylogeographic inferences.

---

-The Nubian Complex of Dhofar, Oman: An African Middle Stone Age Industry in Southern Arabia, 2012.


Jeffrey I. Rose et al.




Now, stop wasting our time. We are trying to be progressive, not repetitive.

The more you post, the more you show that you are not what you've claimed to be.

Thanks for your time.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
I just made a long post in reply that just got deleted. I will try it again.

quote:

---

It's disappointing to see this error continuing. The chart is not describing a spread from each of these regions.
What is listed as "Saharan Arabian" does not mean the intent behind these charts is to show a flow from the Sahahra to Arabia. One look at the history one of the incoming migrations was a major contribution coming in from Arabia with the Islamic conquests of the Maghreb.
it is an admixture chart. That means contributions coming in from without not spreading from.
This chart is not an OOA chart it is a descritpion of the make upo of the modern day Maghreb and an influx of variety of Arabs and Arabized ethnicities incl Syrians etc. moving across the region beginnng with Egypt. As well Portugese in the region and a Phoenician cities centuries before
[/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
I think these "researcher"/ "geneticist" don't even accumulate them as indigenous/ berbers. From a Eurocentric point if view Berbers are supposed to be different looking in the first place. Hence, Lion'S et al..


Here is a documentary on Tunis and her spring revolution.
By a Dutch journalist/ former politician. And some point some of the Tunisians plan on harming him and his team, 11th minute. I hope you can see it, and that it's not blocked to region. Let me know about it.

http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1251858


The Aterian and its place in the North African Middle Stone Age (2012)

quote:

---

Description: Publication year: 2012 Source:Quaternary International Eleanor M.L. Scerri The Aterian is a frequently cited manifestation of the Middle Stone Age (MSA) of North Africa, yet its character and meaning have remained largely opaque, as attention has focused almost exclusively on the typology of ‘tanged’, or ‘pedunculated’, lithics. Observations of technological similarities between the Aterian and other regional technocomplexes suggest that the Aterian should be considered within the wider context of the North African MSA and not as an isolated phenomenon. This paper critically reviews the meaning and history of research of the Aterian. This highlights a number of serious issues with definitions and interpretations of this technocomplex, ranging from a lack of definitional consensus to problems with the common view of the Aterian as a ‘desert adaptation’. Following this review, the paper presents the results of a quantitative study of six North African MSA assemblages (Aterian, Nubian Complex and ‘MSA’). Correspondence and Principal Components Analyses are applied, which suggest that the patterns of similarity and difference demonstrated do not simplistically correlate with traditional divisions between named industries. These similarity patterns are instead structured geographically and it is suggested that they reflect a population differentiation that cannot be explained by isolation and distance alone. Particular results include the apparent uniqueness of Haua Fteah compared to all the other assemblages and the observation that the Aterian in northeast Africa is more similar to the Nubian in that region than to the Aterian in the Maghreb. The study demonstrates the existence of population structure in the North African MSA, which has important implications for t he evolutionary dynamics of modern human dispersals.

---

http://waesearch.kobv.de/uid.do;jsessionid=E81786F9CAFC76A81FC261E6C578626C?query=rss_feeds_1818205&pageid=1347942796202-9619325052468898

Nubia Complex strategies in the Egyptian high desert

http://www.academia.edu/1590718/Nubian_Complex_strategies_in_the_Egyptian_high_desert

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Great post of picture. This is what I visualize the Berbers look like..Never been there but most likely these are the people researchers test as indigenous North Africans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

















One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL

---

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


How come the E1b1b1b (M81)
for Moroccan and Algerian berbers is no less than 71.
but Egyptian Siwa is only 1.1 ?

-see

---

I see, Djehuti responded before, but I will respond to it as well.


It was addressed before, suggested was a bottleneck effect, causing genetic drift.

Siwans carry E-M183 which is the parent clade of E-M81, as was explained before. E-M78 is more local to Northeast Africa, while E-M81 is more local to and basically only found in Northwest Africa. Therefore using the definition "North Africans" or "North Africa" is an erroneous one in my opinion. Even thou they in cosmetic appearance look somewhat alike, there are still ethnic differences.

May I remind you that Tuaregs carry older stems and relate to the Beja. Siwans look somewhat like Bejas in appearance, but reside in a different location.

While the Berber sub-clade of E-M81 is relatively young. Likely this mutation of E-M81 deals with migration levels by these early pastoralists into different terrains. Map it and you'll see it correlates with the climatic changes.


See again:

quote:

---

E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).

---

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:


BTW - everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa, Arabia and even parts of the Levant several centuries ago. The jealousy of you Euronutzies doesn't end - does it.

---

I think the dark skinned people Djehutie put up are beautiful but you need to follow the aguments being made in this thread.

You say : everyone knows "Turkish" Ottoman sultans and their followers took over North Africa.

You are of the opinion that the Magheb is primarily Arab.
The charcteristic haplogoup of Arabs is J.
That aside, xyyman and Troll do no think the Maghreb is primarily Arab. They cite some articles saying things like some Tunisians are 100% "Maghrebian" genetically, the "berber gene"
They think it is primarily African and that Maghrebians like Tunisians, Libyans Algerians etc. on average are more related to Sahelans than they are to Arabs/Levantines/Turks/Portugese.
All the pie charts from DNATribes that you said you agreed with earlier, they disagree with.
I disagree and think they are misinterpreting these articles

---

The Magreb is a complex region, there are many ethnic groups. The people as posted by Djehuti are mostly at the South. Of the Magreb, while the people you're showing are mostly at the North at coastal regions. These Northern regions had invasions, which explains the admixture.

And Djehuti is correct, the people you post up could be of Arab or Turkish descent, or even Spanish or Portuguese, since there have been colonies by them as well.


Turkish Nationals Leaving Libya as Turmoil Escalates

quote:

---

With the crisis continuing to deepen in Libya, Turkey's prime minister has announced mass evacuation measures to remove thousands of Turks from the country. Hundreds of Turks have already fled the country.

Every day brings plane loads of Turks escaping the turmoil in Libya. Arriving at Istanbul's main airport, many of them have grim stories to tell, like this man: "At night it was very violent," he said. "We could hear the gunshots. We could see the clouds of smoke, All the Turks are worried."

A woman had a similar story. "We live in the center of the city and suddenly there is no police or people in regular uniforms," she said. "There were just people who were shooting with machine guns at everything. I believe many people died."

According to the Turkish government there are nearly 25,000 Turks living in Libya, most of whom are working there.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in his weekly address to parliamentary deputies, said that 800 people had been already been evacuated and a further 2,800 want to leave.

The prime minister said seven planes were ready to leave and two ferryboats escorted by a Turkish frigate, were about to arrive in Libya.

Mr. Erdogan also gave a warning. "I would like to remind both officials and government opponents in Libya to be extremely careful to ensure the security of foreigners in their country," he said. "Taking cruel steps against people voicing their democratic demands will only exacerbate the spiral of violence and threaten the country’s unity."

Unconfirmed Turkish news reports claim Libyan security forces have detained several Turkish nationals, accusing them of being involved in the unrest. Other reports say the nationals are accused of working for Israel. Such reports only add to the anxiety faced by those in Turkey awaiting news from their relatives.

One woman whose family is stranded in Libya said, "They are stuck in the middle of the desert. They are in a dire situation and because they are in the desert nobody knows about their situation."

The Turkish prime minister has until now largely avoided speaking about events in Libya. That is in contrast to his call on the then Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak to step down. But observers say with Turkey having such a large number of nationals living in Libya and having close multi billion dollar trade deals with the country, the prime minister has to tread carefully.

---

http://www.voanews.com/content/turkish-nationals-leaving-libya-as-turmoil-escalates-116684804/160209.html [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I posted pictures of folks from rural Tunisia

---

that's why you're an idiot, the masses are in cities and these analysis are based on the population as a whole.

The looks of some rural the people is not the same as Sahelins, they're halfway between them an th average Tunisians, you dope relatively more SSA

---

The thing is that in rural locations the population mostly stays stable, while cities have lot of immigrants. A city is more dynamic in change.

---

DUH! LOL Who else would best represent the indigenes? Urban areas who experienced more immigration or rural areas that are relatively isolated?? Even an elementary school child would know that!

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] And what are we to make of the following Maghrebi people?

---

that they are highly unusual looking for average Maghrebians dumb ass.
They might have been very nice people but in a general analysis of the modern Maghreab would occupy a very small percentage.

You are predictable, you look for any opportunity, same photos from another thread, trying to impress people, hey look at these interesting "black" people I found,
Now relate that to the DNATribes NA region analysis, was the goal to document every obscure ethnicity in the region? Oh so that must mena I hate these people, I'm "dismissing these poor people, get out of here, look at the pie chart, you want like 50 pieces now so we can make every body feel good, go to tishkoff and tell her she left out 2000 tribes from her charts
stop patronizing people and trying to get points
and got mosaic people, posted a million times up don't even look more African than Near Eastern/Med, seen it before. Post something new for once

---

The people posted by Djehuti aren't obscure, they are the main dominant at the Middle and Southern part of the Magreb. Their remains and remnants go back to the Holocene, as has been shown by the actual site scenes. We have followed paternal the genetic trace, showing its mostly African. So, where does DNA-tribes accumulated this?

---

Right again, TP! In fact this was all discussed in my thread here: Modern Day North Africans who Exhibit 'Archaic' Features Even many Western anthropologists acknowledged that such types are obviously aboriginal and share affinities in the oldest modern human remains in the region! Yet the lyinass prefers using coastal immigrant communities as 'typical' Maghrebi.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^^ reasonable but if you are looking at a pie chart and a section of the chart relates to a genetic affinity the chart is not intended to indicate where in the country such people are. And there are also recent sub saharan migrants.

quote:

---

Originally poested by Troll Patrol:
The Tunisians on average look like Moncef Marzouki, the President of Tunisia.

---

I don't think anybody here is that qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I find that Moncef Marzouki somewhat odd looking.

I put this up earlier:


this is my guess as to what average Tunisians, the majority of people look like, within this range we see.
I think people would have to agree with me the fact that some of have the highest M81 yet the Tunisians berbers are not the most African looking of berbers. It's a very small country in terms of land mass. If you compare it to Libya or Algeria the whole country could be described as "coastal" on a relative basis.
yet their population is 10.6 mil and Libya which looks about ten times larger only has 6.4 mil.
And this follows the pattern of the drying of the sahara

---

You are right, you're not qualified to say what the average Tunsia looks like. I however am.

May I remind you that at the at the root level is sub-clade Y E-M96, in over more than 80%. If you look at the morphology in these maven, on that picture, you can trace typical African features.


Sidekick, my dad has been to Tunis several times, they took him for a local, while the white people he was with weren't mistaken for locals ( speaking sticking out). My dad looks somewhat like the darker man with the Fes, in the corner of the picture. The guy in the middle with the black T-shirt looks somewhat like a cousin of mine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:







One may try to dismiss them, especially the black ones of being of recent Sub-Saharan descent but their features especially their wavy or curly hair and heavy brow ridges contrasts them from say a "Cameroonian". LOL

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ this is funny, dana has to ask Djeutie where they're from

---

Why is it funny to ask where this photo was taken, LYING _SS. Do you know if it is the Draa, Sous, Upper Atlas or elsewhere? If so, I'd be mighty glad to hear from you. Take your best shot.

Personally I just think you are mad AS USUAL at the fact I mentioned AGAIN the Berber people who were DOCUMENTED in COASTAL Morocco up until several hundred years ago (according to modern scholarship), and the FACT that they were described as BLACK-skinned SEVERAL TIMES by eyewitness observers that were Syrians, Kurds and Persians or other "swarthy whites" that you like to pretend were the same complexion as the Berbers.

I know - it hurts. But that's too bad.

BTW - Think now carefully before you open and respond from that LYIN _SS of a mouth of yours. And for God's sake get rid of your FEAR OF BLACKNESS.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
Me I just personally look at North Africans as one big diverse group with many looks. But I hate when Eurocentrics try to claim the black looking ones are a result of slavery when that isn't even the case...
 

---

Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Me I just personally look at North Africans as one big diverse group with many looks. But I hate when Eurocentrics try to claim the black looking ones are a result of slavery when that isn't even the case...

---

Lyin _SS being the most perfectly delusional example of this in my humble opinion.
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Me I just personally look at North Africans as one big diverse group with many looks. But I hate when Eurocentrics try to claim the black looking ones are a result of slavery when that isn't even the case...

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Lyin _SS being the most perfectly delusional example of this in my humble opinion.

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LOL...




^^^Some people would be quick to claim those Siwa Berbers are 'mixed' or have 'slave ancestry'. But what those people don't know is that Siwa Berbers have been ISOLATED and remained UNCHANGED. I even hear that they don't marry out.
 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb][/qb]

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From the article - Neanderthals Doomed by Vision-Centered Brains

" Neanderthals' keen vision may explain why they couldn't cope with environmental change and died out, despite having the same sized brains as modern humans, new research suggests.

The findings, published today (March 12) in the journal Proceedings of the Royal Society B, suggest that Neanderthals developed massive visual regions in their brains to compensate for Europe's low light levels. That, however, reduced the brain space available for social cognition.
"...Neanderthals didn't ornament themselves or make art".

http://news.yahoo.com/neanderthals-doomed-vision-centered-brains-002516901.html

Is this why you have such a penchant for picture spamming (allowing you better mental focus?) and have a serious problem with color differentiation among North Africans?

Because if it is I am thinking we should all be more lenient with you.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Djehuti - do you know where this photo is from. They remind me of the descriptions of the predomonant coastal Moroccan Berbers of the 8th to 12th century which were in fact the "Masmuda" and were described as "stocky" unlike the other Berbers (Zanata, Sanhaja, Zaghawa, Wangara, Djawara), etc. and of course "black-skinned" by Nasir Khusroes, Abu Shama and Ibn Butlan others. The description of "stocky" has puzzled me for some time.

I have a theory about a link of Masmuda Berbers to the ancient Sao that I haven't confirmed yet.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Son of Ra:
But what those people don't know is that Siwa Berbers have been ISOLATED and remained UNCHANGED. I even hear that they don't marry out. [/QB]

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Genetics don't seem to agree with those stories.


 

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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

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Originally posted by dana marniche:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:

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Djehuti - do you know where this photo is from. They remind me of the descriptions of the predomonant coastal Moroccan Berbers of the 8th to 12th century which were in fact the "Masmuda" and were described as "stocky" unlike the other Berbers (Zanata, Sanhaja, Zaghawa, Wangara, Djawara), etc. and of course "black-skinned" by Nasir Khusroes, Abu Shama and Ibn Butlan others. The description of "stocky" has puzzled me for some time.

I have a theory about a link of Masmuda Berbers to the ancient Sao that I haven't confirmed yet.

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The photo was taken in Algeria and that is the only thing I know about it. The photo was first posted here years ago in debates about Berbers probably by Doug. I don't know which ethnic group or tribe in Algeria the women belong to, however their hairstyles and head wraps bear a striking resemblance to some Ouled Berbers although most Ouled, especially the women are quite fair in complexion and those especially in northern areas could be called 'white' except many still have the same facial features as the women in the photo I posted.

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