quote:Yes, as indicated I wrote it back in 2006 and
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:The idea is that proto-Berber goes back to around this time, or even later (2-2.5ky), according to some estimates (Louali and Philippson 2004), but this is based on comparing the diversity within extant Berber languages, to other languages (I’m not sure if North Africa's demographic dynamics are similar enough to Europe’s to just carelessly extrapolate like this). There is also talks of Berber names in Egyptian records from the Old Kingdom, but this in and of itself doesn’t necessarily imply that proto-Berber needs to pushed back to this date. I however, do push back Proto-Berber to this period and earlier, but I don't necessarily limit proto-Berber to whatever linguistic clade modern Berbers belong to (which is fixed in time), so I'm not limited by those coalescence dates.
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I didn't know the Berber branch only goes back to
2000 BCE. What did all the north coastal people
Sirte and further west speak? Did all those
populations undergo language shift since the
Maghreb proper mtDNA evinces trans-Holocene
continuity?
Anyway, Guanche Berbers could have narrowed down the age of Proto-Berber, but there is too little data available to conclusively say whether they spoke Berber proper or some upstream pre-Proto-Berber off-shoot. So, to answer your question, suggestions have been that before this, Berbers people spoke a Berber language that joins up with the ancestors of Proto-Berber (an example of this could be Numidian) and before that, further back in time, with proto-Chadic, ’’Semitic and ’’Egyptian, if we’re to go with Ehret.
As for those uniparental lineages, you can tell that post was written some time ago by the nomenclature. If you want to get the most recent dates and info for those lineages, just google their SNP clade names one by one and see what the most recent papers are saying.
code:.INDUSTRY MORPHOLOGY PREDOMINANT MARKERS
mtDNA NRY
ATERIAN "Boskopoid"? *U6a* *E3b-M35*
?E3b1-M78?
MOUILLIAN "PaleaMediterranean" U6a E3b-M35
U6b *E3b1-M78*
U6c
*U6a1*
CAPSIAN/ORANIAN "AfricanMediterranean" U6a E3b-M35
"African Alpine" U6b E3b1-M78
U6c ?E3b2-M81?
U6a1
*U6b1*
NEOLITHIC SAHARAN meld of the above as above as above
Saharo-Sudanese *E3b-M81*
quote:
Originally posted by beyoku:
I think they should have broken down the subclades of A and B. It would be quite easy to see A3b2 and B2a1a associated with Nilo-Saharans.
Failure of Resolution on their part.
The E2 lineages on the other hand are E2a which definitely has a Great Lakes Nilo-Saharan Affiliation.
quote:Supplementing Tukuler's above post with these anthropological findings.
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Originally posted November, 2006 by alTakruri:
Genetic conclusion are drawn from living populations.
High frequency African specific lineage relevant DNA
in TaMazgha is mtDNA U6 and NRY E3b-M35.
U6a has a coalescence ranging between 41-14kya per HVSI sequences.
It has a west to east expansion making it a strong candidate for an
Aterian female base.
U6a1 (19-7.5kya) with an east to west expansion is at the tail end
of the Aterian, all throughout the Mouillian, and most likely signals
the Capsian which arose first in East Africa though named after Gafsa,
the site in North Africa where archaeologist first dug up relics of the
industry. This is a time period of proto-Afrisan and proto-NiloSaharan.
A language ancestral to both (namely proto-Wider Area Of Northern
Affinity) may have been carried from east to north Africa.
The other U6 subgroups (U6b, U6c, and U6b1) occur almost exclusively in
western populations and by HVSI coalescence dating would appear during
all the pleistocene industries. The exception being U6b1 which is strictly
holocene while U6c's coalescence covers both the late pleistocene and
early holocene. On their return to the U6a birthplace, U6a1 would encounter
the already in place older U6b and U6c indigenous to that region.
E3b-M35 has a coalescence ranging between 46-27kya per average squared
difference. It probably originated in eastern Africa. Highest frequencies are
in the "Khoisan" and Oromo. It could be the male base of the Aterian that
was later absorbed and displaced.
E3b1-M78 (33-25kya), derived from E3b-M35, also most likely arose in
eastern Africa and fits the Aterian time frame. By late expansion, it may
also signal the Mouillian which is known to be related to the Halfan
industry in the Nile Valley. It has high frequencies in Ethiopia, Sudan,
and Kenya.
E3b2-M81 (11-6kya), also an E3b-M35 derivative, likewise first appeared
in eastern Africa. It's more in line with the Capsian and Neolithic Saharan.
The first Wider Area of Northern Affinity languages was at this
particularly proto-NiloSaharan. Afrisan had begun splitting so that by the
lower limit proto-Tamazight was born. Certain languages in the Wider
Area of Southern Affinity may have started in the Sahara along with
languages not truly fitting any strict classification system. This
subclade is considered to be the Amazigh marker.code:.INDUSTRY MORPHOLOGY PREDOMINANT MARKERS
mtDNA NRY
ATERIAN "Boskopoid"? *U6a* *E3b-M35*
?E3b1-M78?
MOUILLIAN "PaleaMediterranean" U6a E3b-M35
U6b *E3b1-M78*
U6c
*U6a1*
CAPSIAN/ORANIAN "AfricanMediterranean" U6a E3b-M35
"African Alpine" U6b E3b1-M78
U6c ?E3b2-M81?
U6a1
*U6b1*
NEOLITHIC SAHARAN meld of the above as above as above
Saharo-Sudanese *E3b-M81*
The Aterian was highly concentrated in the Atlas but had an outreach that
included the Sahara and Libya. Its practioners may've resembled "Khoisan".
Archaeological finds show the Mouillian "PaleaMediterraneans" occupied the
littoral from Libya to Morocco. Oranian finds are also scattered over this
same whole area. Capsian "AfricanMediterranean" relics are all inland away
from the coast. The Neolithic Sahara industry of the Saharo-Sudanese replaced
the earlier industry but not the morphologies. Apparently only a few pioneer
Saharo-Sudanese ventured toward the coast introducing technologies similar
to the so-called Khartoum "Mesolithic". The neolithic transfer was moreso
cultural than demic. All of these Maghrebi industries and NRY haplogroups
show links with the Nile Valley. The mtDNA haplogroups mostly suggest
local Maghreb al Aqsa continuities.
quote:Yes. The OP basically says it all. These correlations would have been even stronger when filtering out admixture events. For example, the Khoisan have recent admixture that isn't native to them. This can be attributed mostly to East African pastoralists going down south very recently. I don't any of that Khoisan *E-M35 is E-M35 proper. Its probably mostly E-M293, which was discovered after this 2005 paper was published. The Berber clades in between E-M81 and E-M35 could also have many implications for our understanding of ancient Berbers, and the extend to which modern Berbers populations (who are mainly E-M81) are representative of all of them.
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Yes, as indicated I wrote it back in 2006 and
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:The idea is that proto-Berber goes back to around this time, or even later (2-2.5ky), according to some estimates (Louali and Philippson 2004), but this is based on comparing the diversity within extant Berber languages, to other languages (I’m not sure if North Africa's demographic dynamics are similar enough to Europe’s to just carelessly extrapolate like this). There is also talks of Berber names in Egyptian records from the Old Kingdom, but this in and of itself doesn’t necessarily imply that proto-Berber needs to pushed back to this date. I however, do push back Proto-Berber to this period and earlier, but I don't necessarily limit proto-Berber to whatever linguistic clade modern Berbers belong to (which is fixed in time), so I'm not limited by those coalescence dates.
Originally posted by Tukuler:
I didn't know the Berber branch only goes back to
2000 BCE. What did all the north coastal people
Sirte and further west speak? Did all those
populations undergo language shift since the
Maghreb proper mtDNA evinces trans-Holocene
continuity?
Anyway, Guanche Berbers could have narrowed down the age of Proto-Berber, but there is too little data available to conclusively say whether they spoke Berber proper or some upstream pre-Proto-Berber off-shoot. So, to answer your question, suggestions have been that before this, Berbers people spoke a Berber language that joins up with the ancestors of Proto-Berber (an example of this could be Numidian) and before that, further back in time, with proto-Chadic, ’’Semitic and ’’Egyptian, if we’re to go with Ehret.
As for those uniparental lineages, you can tell that post was written some time ago by the nomenclature. If you want to get the most recent dates and info for those lineages, just google their SNP clade names one by one and see what the most recent papers are saying.
reposting it for all to critique and help bring
it up to date (or even totally discredit). Even
back then I found it essential to give mutations
since phylogenies constantly change with new data.
quote:
Originally posted by Swenet:
quote:You're only contradicting yourself with this admission, which you state in a matter of fact type of way, even though there is no evidence in existence which points to the claim that E1b1a is linked to Sorghum/Millet cultivators.
Originally posted by rainingburntice:
I said I wasn't surprised to find that he was Hg E. As for Hg E1b1a it's presence in ancient Egypt agrees with archaeology. It is connected with the sorghum/millet/pottery complex.
There is no need to view E1b1a as any more recent in the Nile Valley than E-M35. There is 10ky of Nile Valley history that neither E-M78 nor E-M35 can account for, but that E1b1a CAN account for, along with B-M60 and A-M13.
quote:Another bizarre claim. We don't know when E1b1a carrying Africans migrated to the region of this Mali pottery find, and prior to this E1b1a migration, West African populations wouldn't have been high E1b1a, but A and E-M33, among other Y chromosomes. Notice that the prehistoric pottery site where pre-E1b1a West Africans resided, is Dogon territory. Point? Dogon are high in this prehistoric West African clade (E-M33).
Originally posted by rainingburntice:
The highest frequency of E1b1a is in West Africa and the oldest pottery is found in Mali 9400 BC. From there this Nilo-Saharan culture moved east and is found at Nabta Playa 7000 BC.
Your link of E1b1a and Nilo-Saharans is totally pulled out of thin air. Even certain Levantines and certain Arabs have more E1b1a than the average Nilo-Saharan. Might as well pull out your Euronut hat and say that Ramses III got his E1b1a from Palestinians and/or Arabs.
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
de Felippo's Tanzania data includes four major
language families (Click Nilotic Bantu Afrisian).
It could be a good test of language group genetic
signatures considering Tanzania's regional history.
Majority haplogroups with frequencies in speakers
~37% A ____________ Click
~55% E1b1b1 _______ Nilotic
~55% E1b1a*'7a'8 ___ Bantu
~45% E1b1b1 _______ Afrisian
Assessing de Filippo:
* A is Click's likely signature
* E-M2 (derivatives) for Niger-Kordofanian
* E-M35 for Nilo-Saharan and Afrisian like Tishkoff's
genome data implicates genetic unity by sharing the
same likely signature.
__________
Higher Y resolution could decide between Afrisian
and Nilo-Saharan for M78 M81 M123 M281 V6 P72
at signature significance in Africa.
E-M81 is well known as the Afrisian Berber signature.
E-M123, hi-freq Dead Sea, is a likely Afrisian signature.
As far as African markers go Click speakers' genesis
is separate from NiloSaharan NigerKordofanian and
Afrisian which all three root in E-P2.
quote:Thanks for the heads up. Its news to me though its old as 2008.
Originally posted by Swenet:
I don't any of that Khoisan *E-M35 is E-M35 proper. Its probably mostly E-M293, which was discovered after this 2005 paper was published.
quote:Here is my take on it, which is mostly overlapping with yours:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Thanks for the heads up. Its news to me though its old as 2008.
Originally posted by Swenet:
I don't any of that Khoisan *E-M35 is E-M35 proper. Its probably mostly E-M293, which was discovered after this 2005 paper was published.
quote:.
Originally posted by Akachi:
Tukler.. he has been here for over a decade, and is unwilling to disclose his opinion on the origins of Niger-Congo speakers and their context throughout the African story. What is wrong with that man?!