This is topic Nine bows, Throne painting Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye at Tomb of Anen in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

https://arce.org/project/conservation-tomb-anen-tt120/


https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/548566



Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen
ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Anen (TT 120), MMA graphic expedition 1931 Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: facsimile

^^^ here's an interesting facsimile illustration. mostly obliterated

detail of Nine Bows prisoners at bottom of thrones:

______________________________________________
.


.
Below,
Similar throned Amenhotep II scene at Tomb of Kheruef TT 192







[thread title Edited 12/12/2022 to include "Nine Bows" + Tomb of Kheruef added 1/1/2023]
 

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Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
Beautiful wall relief of Pharaoh Amenhotep III and her queen the beautiful Tiye, also pictures of prisoners of different race or ethnicity.Among the prisoners black Kushites and Semite Syrian, Libyan ,Amorite, Hittite.No white and Asian people among the prisoners.It look like the ancient and classical world was ruled by black people and their Metis children.White people are late comer to history.

Pelizaeus wood statue of Pharaoh Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye look like a real portrait.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
mena why do you bring up white people in every thread?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ LOL Perhaps the same psychological reason why you subliminally try to make sneaky implications in many of your posts about non-black or 'mixed' Eurasian peoples as ancestral to Egyptians but I digress.

What is the purpose of your post anyway?

By the way, the prisoners beneath the feet of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye represent the 'Nine Bows' or nine great enemies of Egypt. Each prisoner represents a distinct ethnic group, yet funny how your lyinass grouped all the obviously black ones under the label of 'Kushite' when they each have their own ethnic label.

The only other point I want to make is that the Libyan and perhaps Amorite prisoners were originally darker than they appear now. I base this not only on the traces of paint that show but also on the fact that there are other contemporary murals which depict them as darker about the same complexion as the Egyptians themselves. The bald-headed Amorite men for example are portrayed as having the same complexion as Tut in one scene, and we've gone over the traces of dark paint found among Tamahu Libyans.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

detail of prisoners from bottom:


_______Syrian_________Kushite__________Libyan______Kushite


___Hittite (?)_________Kushite_______Amorite________Kushite_______Syrian (?)

---

Actually these are not prisoners but the Nine Bows
(symbolic traditional enemies of Egypt) of that era.

If you could read Egyptian hieroglyphic you'd
know your ethnic assignments are mostly incorrect.



______Kefti _________Irem__________Naharin___________Kush_______Sen-gar



_______Shasu_____Mentu-nu-setet_______Tjehenu______Iuntiu-seti
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Actually these are not prisoners but the Nine Bows
(symbolic traditional enemies of Egypt) of that era.

If you could read Egyptian hieroglyphic you'd
know your ethnic assignments are mostly incorrect.



___Kefti _________Irem_______Naharin________Kush_______Sen-gar



_______Shasu_________Mentu-nu-setet______Tjehenu______Iuntiu-seti

---

The fact that the nine bows are the enemies of Egypt does not mean they are not also depicted as prisoners, bound captives as we see their arms are tied.
I might accept some of your corrections. However one musn't assume that more obscure names for certian ethnic groups are separate groups from the more familiar names for such groups. It would be helpful if you to discuss some of these groups and the others names some go by.
I would expect even veteran ES members not to recognize every term you are using without looking some up.

The Nine Bows vary from text to text. You have identified the glyphs here apparently here or simply looked up one of the nine bow lists


The more familiar names for such names as

Naharin = Mittani

Sengar = Babylonian

Mentu-nu-setet,
Iuntiu-seti,
and Irem

= could all be probably described as tribes of Kushites,
indeed they all have the same garb
Nobody uses any of these as regular terms in Egyptology, please stop being purposefully arcane, high-brow and over-complicating. I would have respected your comment if you had had more explantion of alternate names not just listing names as if another name used is entirely wrong. Having said this I did make some mistakes also but I also put question marks on some to begin with

Tehenu are Libyans

Sengar = Babylonian

Kefti = Cretan

I will now redo this according to more known terms my best guesses with terms peple are more familiar with using some of your info



__Cretan________Kushite _______Mittani ________Kushite___ Babylonian
________________(Irem)______(Mesopotamian)



______Shasu________Kushite_______Libyan______Kushite
__________________( Mentu-nu-setet)____________( Iuntiu-seti)
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass fool:

The fact that the nine bows are the enemies of Egypt does not mean they are not also depicted as prisoners, bound captives as we see their arms are tied.

---

quote:

---

I might accept some of your corrections. However one mustn't assume that more obscure names for certain ethnic groups are separate groups from the more familiar names for such groups. It would be helpful if you to discuss some of these groups and the others names some go by.
I would expect even veteran ES members not to recognize every term you are using without looking some up.

---

NO, what YOU assume is that the Egyptians applied the same terminology that is popular among laymen and even many Egyptologists.

quote:

---

The Nine Bows vary from text to text. You have identified the glyphs here apparently here or simply looked up one of the nine bow lists.

---

quote:

---

The more familiar names for such names as

Naharin = Mittani

Sengar = Babylonian

Mentu-nu-setet,
Iuntiu-seti,
and Irem

= could all be probably described as tribes of Kushites,
indeed they all have the same garb
Nobody uses any of these as regular terms in Egyptology, please stop being purposefully arcane, high-brow and over-complicating...

---

NO. Because again, 'Kushite' proper is the name of ONE ethnic group. The other three groups you incorrectly say are 'Kushite tribes' are entirely different ethnic groups. These other groups may be allies of, or even under the suzerainty of the Kushites, and they may be closely related to the Kushites but they were NOT Kushites. Your hypocrisy is exposed when you don't bother to lump the Naharin, Shasu, and Sen-gar under a single moniker, say 'Asiatic', even though these people are also dressed similarly and share a territory!

quote:

---

I would have respected your comment if you had had more explanation of alternate names not just listing names as if another name used is entirely wrong. Having said this I did make some mistakes also but I also put question marks on some to begin with.

Tehenu are Libyans

Sengar = Babylonian

Kefti = Cretan

I will now redo this according to more known terms my best guesses with terms people are more familiar with using some of your info.

---

Nah, twit. You're just mad cuz your lying hypocritical-ass got busted. You group all the overtly black groups into a 'Kushite' group not the Asiatics. Lyinass productions is once again flushed down the toilet.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ asshole, they are all depicted with the exact same clothing, obviously more related to each other and by geography than the various Asiatics. And asshole, I included specific names in parenthesis

stop cheerleading and pretending to be a black militant

This is a conversation between A and B

C your way out of it


______________________________________________________

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory/message/6863


Other Nine Bow break down from another forum:

[1] the Shat,
[2] the Sekhet-lam,
[3] the Pedtiu-Shu,
[4] the Tehennu,
[5] the Iuntiu-Seti,
[6] the Mentiu-nu-Setet,
[7] the Hau-Nebut,
[8] the Ta Shema
[9] the Ta Mehu

" The Sed-Festival pavilion of Amenhotep III portrayed each of the Bows
as a captive figure with his arms tied behind his back. Next to each
is an oval medallion upon which the name of that people which each
represents is given. The faces vary in their portrayal according to
their locality. The list is considerably different from previous
examples. There is no mention of either half of Egypt

Without attempting to be too specific as to the location and identity
of each, they are placed in geographical orientation to Egypt proper
by Uphill as follows:

[1] The Shat were apparently among the southern-most of the bows,
lying in the vicinity of the Third Cataract [south of Kush],
according to evidence from Thutmose III and a series of alabaster
statuettes.

[2] The Sekhet-Iam seem to have occupied the oasis land to the west
of central Egypt, though how far north or south they were located we
do not know. On their immediate eastern border lived ...

[3] the Pedtiu-Shu, possibly on into the Sinai Peninsula,
though this is not for certain. They are certainly a Bedouin people,
and would have inhabited the Red Sea hill country. [This would mean
the people straddled the Nile.]

[4] There is no question about the Tehennu, who were the Libyans on
the west and north of Egypt, and they occupied the land between the
Pedtiu-Shu and the Mediterranean Sea on the west border
of Egypt.

[5] The Iuntiu-Seti are a southern people, often depicted as Blacks,
and they occupied Nubia. [John, would these be our Medjay?]

[6] The Mentiu nu-Setet originally were placed in southwestern
Canaan, [<<<THIS IS IMPORTANT, I THINK] ... though at times their
territory was expanded to include the coast up to Ugarit and Alalakh.
Sometimes, too, it was reduced again, as for example during the time
of Ahmose son of Ebana who identified the Asiatics slain by his
master at Avaris and Sharuhen as Hyksos.

[7] The Hau-nebut are the most difficult of all the bows to place.
Uphill concludes after a lengthy examination that they were to be
found on the coast of Lebanon at first. Later, their territory was
expanded around the northeast Mediterranean coast ultimately to
include the Aegean Islands.

[8] and [9] not discussed.

[Beyond 9] During the later Middle Kingdom, the Meshwesh people were
added to the western enemies.

John, the reason I put up this particular post is I'm wondering
if you can make heads or tails of your "TWO TRIBES" of the
MEDJAY, and the names mentioned for the NINE BOWS?

John, I don't want to impose... but you did *start it* by listing
those two really obscure tribal names. And it's been nothing
but trouble since !!!

George


FINAL NOTE FROM THE URL:
Under the rule of other kings of the New Kingdom, such as Amenhotep
II, the Nine Bows included Assyria, Babylon, and other distant
peoples, over whom they never in fact were able to exercise
sovereignty. By the late Dynastic Period the names of the Nine Bows
had lost completely their specific geographical locations and were
used during Ptolemaic times for distant lands of which the Egyptians
had heard, but with whom they probably had had few dealings.


.
 

---

Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
[5]

quote:

---

The Iuntiu-Seti are a southern people, often depicted as Blacks, and they occupied Nubia

---

This is the same Anu being talked about here.

quote:

---

"The Aunu People. Besides these types, belonging to the north and east, There is the aboriginal race of the Anu, or Aunu, people (written with three pillars), who became a part of the historic inhabitants. The subject ramifies too doubtfully if we include all single-pillar names, but looking for the Aunu, written with the three pillars, we find that they occupied Southern Egypt and Nubia, and the name is also applied in Sinai and Libya. As to the Southern Egyptians, we have the most essential document, a portrait of a chief, Tera-neter, roughly modeled in relief in green glazed faience, found in the early temple at Abydos. Preceding his name, his address is given on this earliest of visiting cards, "Palace of the Aunu in Hermen city, Tera-neter." Hemen was the name of the god of Tuphium (Lanz., Dict, 544), 13 miles south of Luqsor. Erment, opposite to it, was the place of Aunu of the south, Aunu Menti. The next place in the south is Aunti (Gebeleyn), and beyond that Aunyt-seni (Esneh).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass fool:

The fact that the nine bows are the enemies of Egypt does not mean they are not also depicted as prisoners, bound captives as we see their arms are tied.

---

If you notice, the captives are all have their necks bounded by Nile lotus stems. It's apparent to anyone familiar with Egyptian art and spiritual beliefs that the image of the subdued 9 bows is an execration image meant to magically keep the 9 bows at bay and is NOT an actual depiction of live prisoners.

quote:

---

I might accept some of your corrections. However one mustn't assume that more obscure names for certain ethnic groups are separate groups from the more familiar names for such groups. It would be helpful if you to discuss some of these groups and the others names some go by.
I would expect even veteran ES members not to recognize every term you are using without looking some up.

---

NO, what YOU assume is that the Egyptians applied the same terminology that is popular among laymen and even many Egyptologists.

quote:

---

The Nine Bows vary from text to text. You have identified the glyphs here apparently here or simply looked up one of the nine bow lists.

---

You are correct. The Nine Bows are a dynamic group that changes from one time period to the next and whatever political relationship Kmt had with its foreign neighbors.

quote:

---

The more familiar names for such names as

Naharin = Mittani

Sengar = Babylonian

Mentu-nu-setet,
Iuntiu-seti,
and Irem

= could all be probably described as tribes of Kushites,
indeed they all have the same garb
Nobody uses any of these as regular terms in Egyptology, please stop being purposefully arcane, high-brow and over-complicating...

---

NO. Because again, 'Kushite' proper is the name of ONE ethnic group. The other three groups you incorrectly say are 'Kushite tribes' are entirely different ethnic groups. These other groups may be allies of, or even under the suzerainty of the Kushites, and they may be closely related to the Kushites but they were NOT Kushites. Your hypocrisy is exposed when you don't bother to lump the Naharin, Shasu, and Sen-gar under a single moniker, say 'Asiatic', even though these people are also dressed similarly and share a territory!

quote:

---

I would have respected your comment if you had had more explanation of alternate names not just listing names as if another name used is entirely wrong. Having said this I did make some mistakes also but I also put question marks on some to begin with.

Tehenu are Libyans

Sengar = Babylonian

Kefti = Cretan

I will now redo this according to more known terms my best guesses with terms people are more familiar with using some of your info.

---

Nah, twit. You're just mad cuz your lying hypocritical-ass got busted. You group all the overtly black groups into a 'Kushite' group not the Asiatics. Lyinass productions is once again flushed down the toilet.

---

Exactly! You were on to her ''I will now redo this (...)'' red herring. The troll was butt hurt from the corrections and tried to sweep her exposed phuckups under the rug and phucked up even more with her atrocious labelling (e.g., continuing to name everything that walks and looks black ''Kushites'').

Notice that the lioness always makes thread with other peoples' information. There are no fresh departures from pre-existing research, no original hypotheses, no nothing, other than plagiarizing, a never ending stream of hot phuckups and relentless trolling!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
There are no fresh departures from pre-existing research, no original hypotheses, no nothing, other than plagiarizing, a never ending stream of hot phuckups and relentless trolling! [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
There are no fresh departures from pre-existing research, no original hypotheses, no nothing, other than plagiarizing, a never ending stream of hot phuckups and relentless trolling! [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
List one original hypotheses you have one fresh departure from pre-existing research. And put a dumb animatefd smiley face at the end

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
[5]

quote:

---

The Iuntiu-Seti are a southern people, often depicted as Blacks, and they occupied Nubia

---

This is the same Anu being talked about here.

quote:

---

"The Aunu People. Besides these types, belonging to the north and east, There is the aboriginal race of the Anu, or Aunu, people (written with three pillars), who became a part of the historic inhabitants. The subject ramifies too doubtfully if we include all single-pillar names, but looking for the Aunu, written with the three pillars, we find that they occupied Southern Egypt and Nubia, and the name is also applied in Sinai and Libya. As to the Southern Egyptians, we have the most essential document, a portrait of a chief, Tera-neter, roughly modeled in relief in green glazed faience, found in the early temple at Abydos. Preceding his name, his address is given on this earliest of visiting cards, "Palace of the Aunu in Hermen city, Tera-neter." Hemen was the name of the god of Tuphium (Lanz., Dict, 544), 13 miles south of Luqsor. Erment, opposite to it, was the place of Aunu of the south, Aunu Menti. The next place in the south is Aunti (Gebeleyn), and beyond that Aunyt-seni (Esneh).

---

One of the players in the formation of early Kemet itself now depicted as one of the nine bows in a later era,and I have always said we should use the proper names of those people whenever possible for when we forever go on to lump and dump them it causes confusion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

This is the same Anu being talked about here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

I might accept some of your corrections. However one musn't assume that more obscure names for certian ethnic groups are separate groups from the more familiar names for such groups.

I would expect even veteran ES members not to recognize every term you are using without looking some up.


Nobody uses any of these as regular terms in Egyptology, please stop being purposefully arcane, high-brow and over-complicating.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:



Exactly! You were on to her ''I will now redo this (...)'' red herring. The troll was butt hurt from the corrections and tried to sweep her exposed phuckups under the rug and phucked up even more with her atrocious labelling (e.g., continuing to name everything that walks and looks black ''Kushites'').

Notice that the lioness always makes thread with other peoples' information. There are no fresh departures from pre-existing research, no original hypotheses, no nothing, other than plagiarizing, a never ending stream of hot phuckups and relentless trolling!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] I couldn't care less what you accept or expect.

I post for intelligent people wanting accuracy in
THEIR information. The days of dumbing down for
Black people are over.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

I don't see any but you complaining and even you
benefitted from my pinpoint accuracy of the names
written in Egyptian hieroglyphics. You're welcome.


Anyway thanks for the thread it's been a long while plus the images disappeared.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000017
Kmt Art 4 -- Kmtyw draw paint and sculpt themselves

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

asshole, they are all depicted with the exact same clothing, obviously more related to each other and by geography than the various Asiatics. And asshole, I included specific names in parenthesis.

---

quote:

---

stop cheerleading and pretending to be a black militant

---

B|tch who is pretending to black other than YOU?! And exactly what is so "militant" about what I said in calling out your pigsh|t?? LOL

As for "cheerleading", I didn't cheer Tukuler but made my own observations on the crap you posted.

quote:

---

This is a conversation between A and B

C your way out of it.

---

quote:

---

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory/message/6863

Other Nine Bow break down from another forum:

[1] the Shat,
[2] the Sekhet-lam,
[3] the Pedtiu-Shu,
[4] the Tehennu,
[5] the Iuntiu-Seti,
[6] the Mentiu-nu-Setet,
[7] the Hau-Nebut,
[8] the Ta Shema
[9] the Ta Mehu

" The Sed-Festival pavilion of Amenhotep III portrayed each of the Bows
as a captive figure with his arms tied behind his back. Next to each
is an oval medallion upon which the name of that people which each
represents is given. The faces vary in their portrayal according to
their locality. The list is considerably different from previous
examples. There is no mention of either half of Egypt

Without attempting to be too specific as to the location and identity
of each, they are placed in geographical orientation to Egypt proper
by Uphill as follows:

[1] The Shat were apparently among the southern-most of the bows,
lying in the vicinity of the Third Cataract [south of Kush],
according to evidence from Thutmose III and a series of alabaster
statuettes.

[2] The Sekhet-Iam seem to have occupied the oasis land to the west
of central Egypt, though how far north or south they were located we
do not know. On their immediate eastern border lived ...

[3] the Pedtiu-Shu, possibly on into the Sinai Peninsula,
though this is not for certain. They are certainly a Bedouin people,
and would have inhabited the Red Sea hill country. [This would mean
the people straddled the Nile.]

[4] There is no question about the Tehennu, who were the Libyans on
the west and north of Egypt, and they occupied the land between the
Pedtiu-Shu and the Mediterranean Sea on the west border
of Egypt.

[5] The Iuntiu-Seti are a southern people, often depicted as Blacks,
and they occupied Nubia. [John, would these be our Medjay?]

[6] The Mentiu nu-Setet originally were placed in southwestern
Canaan, [<<<THIS IS IMPORTANT, I THINK] ... though at times their
territory was expanded to include the coast up to Ugarit and Alalakh.
Sometimes, too, it was reduced again, as for example during the time
of Ahmose son of Ebana who identified the Asiatics slain by his
master at Avaris and Sharuhen as Hyksos.

[7] The Hau-nebut are the most difficult of all the bows to place.
Uphill concludes after a lengthy examination that they were to be
found on the coast of Lebanon at first. Later, their territory was
expanded around the northeast Mediterranean coast ultimately to
include the Aegean Islands.

[8] and [9] not discussed.

[Beyond 9] During the later Middle Kingdom, the Meshwesh people were
added to the western enemies.

John, the reason I put up this particular post is I'm wondering
if you can make heads or tails of your "TWO TRIBES" of the
MEDJAY, and the names mentioned for the NINE BOWS?

John, I don't want to impose... but you did *start it* by listing
those two really obscure tribal names. And it's been nothing
but trouble since !!!

George

FINAL NOTE FROM THE URL:
Under the rule of other kings of the New Kingdom, such as Amenhotep
II, the Nine Bows included Assyria, Babylon, and other distant
peoples, over whom they never in fact were able to exercise
sovereignty. By the late Dynastic Period the names of the Nine Bows
had lost completely their specific geographical locations and were
used during Ptolemaic times for distant lands of which the Egyptians
had heard, but with whom they probably had had few dealings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:



Exactly! You were on to her ''I will now redo this (...)'' red herring. The troll was butt hurt from the corrections and tried to sweep her exposed phuckups under the rug and phucked up even more with her atrocious labelling (e.g., continuing to name everything that walks and looks black ''Kushites'').

Notice that the lioness always makes thread with other peoples' information. There are no fresh departures from pre-existing research, no original hypotheses, no nothing, other than plagiarizing, a never ending stream of hot phuckups and relentless trolling!

---

Exactly. Note her typical strawman accusation that I am "cheering" for Tukuler. Tukuler merely corrected her labeling but I am the one called out her racist hypocrisy of group all the blacks together under 'Kushites' but not all the Asiatics together.

---

total hypocrisy from cheerleader Djefruity and Sweentet the latter who has a thread called:

" Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians? "

^^^^ Not saying I don't use it but these term "nubian" is most sweeping of all, well beyond "Kushite". Some posters even complain racism when the word is used.


moe and curly over here
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Wrong again, dumb trick! That's because when Swenet and I use the label 'Nubian' we mean it in its original context which is for peoples who live in the region south of Egypt. It's actually NOT racist unless someone uses the term for 'black' people as if the Egyptians were not black. Nubia is not a polity nor is it an ethnicity; it is a region pure and simple. And it is the best modern term we have for the Egyptian Nhsy since both words are used the same even though the etymology of 'Nubia' is still unclear as it is an exonym coined by the Romans though it may be based on the Egyptian word for gold 'nubt'.

Therefore, your pathetic lyinass attempt to project your guilt of hypocrisy on to us is another flushed product.
 

---

Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Thanks Tukuler

quote:

---

When looking at the Iuntiu-seti hieroglyphic you can see its a symbol associated with the Intyw (alternate spelling) of the hills east of the Egyptian Nile.

---

And Lioness like the above Iuntiu-seti= Aunyt-seni= Esneh, Imn = Amen = Amun sometimes I&A became interchangeable I guess,the below is from a site of a critique of Petrie this is what I found

quote:

---

The above translation from the web page is wrong on all counts, although the name of the individual in the figure standing at left comes close. His name (shaded in red) is transliterated as tri-nTr. It can be rendered as Terinetjer (as one example) and can be translated as “One who worships the gods.” This is his name, not a title. The translation of the glyphs I’ve shaded green are still the subject of dispute but the current transliteration is nxn.w (MacArthur 2010: 136), which can be rendered as Nekhenw. It is believed that this is the name of an estate of which Terinetjer may have been in charge (ibid); more on that presently.

The translation from the web page breaks the next set of glyphs into two lines: “of the god Seth / Net Annu-u: ‘of the Cities of the Annu People’s.’” This is incorrect. In my own image this is the area I’ve color-coded blue, and it’s simply a cadrat or square of glyphs all of which belong together when read. The correct translation is Menhet (transliterated mnH[.t]), and is the name of a town. It’s location is not known today but it was probably the nearest settlement of size to the estate called nxn.w (Nekhenw).

The word “Anu” or “Aunu” or other variations does not appear anywhere on this plaque. The web page to which I’ve been referring (see link in opening paragraph) quotes Petrie from his The Making of Egypt:

---

quote:

---

the Lioness wrote:

AlTak and dana know a lot but the thing they do I don't like is they sometimes use more obscure terms and don't explain them.
That's a way of intentionally excluding laymen from learning on this site.
Dana for example will often use an old spelling for certain African tribes that you hardly ever see. When other people try to research it they sometimes can't find the information because ther is more information written about it with one letter different. Djefruity for example often doesn't do his own research and parrots dana or AlTak with the obscure spellings.

The better way to do things is instead of trying to be the go to authority and throw people off by using lesser known spellings from 19th century books or obscure sub clans is to leave those names in but in parenthesis put in alternate names.
That's what encyclopedias do.
They do that to help people understand rather than trying to be the leader of an exclusive club of I know more than you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:




Amenhotep III and and Queen Tiye. PELIZAEUS-MUSEUM Hildeheim 53 a-b made of wood, provenance unknown


Relief head of Queen Tiye, wife of Amenhotep III, 18th dynasty, 1386-1340 BC.

^^^^ no Amenhotep III here but a relief we rarely see
another here:



Relief Fragment representing Queen Tiye
Tiye (c. 1398 BC – 1338 BC. She became the Great Royal Wife of the Egyptian pharaoh Amenhotep III and matriarch of the Amarna family. Also under her son Akhenaten, she played a political role, the extent is not clear.

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I have a few more for your collection.

Akenaton and his mother, Queen Tiye.



http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/akenatonkarnak.html








Fragment of a relief representing queen Tiye

From Western Thebes, from the mortuary temple of Amenhotep III.

New Kingdom, 18th dynasty, 1375 BC. Quartz.
Neues Museum, Berlin AM23270



 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Face from a Composite Statue, probably Queen Tiye











Description


This quartzite head once belonged to a composite statue made of several different materials. Based on the color of the stone (red being the conventional color for men), the owner was originally identified as Akhenaten. However, the subject seems to have worn the standard tripartite wig, which frames the face with two thick hanks of hair while a third section hangs down the back. This wig and the very close similarity of the face to known images of Akhenaten's mother, Queen Tiye, make it virtually certain that she is represented here.
The sensitive modeling of the face is typical of the workshop of the sculptor Thutmose at site of Amarna. The existence of gypsum plaster casts excavated in Thutmose's studio suggests that this may have been part of a group statue depicting Akhenaten with his parents, Tiye, and Amenhotep III.


http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/search-the-collections/100001016
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
It's as if some artifacts can't stand alone.
Certain other artifacts always have to be brought in to "correct" the first ones. Doing that suggests there is something that the first artifacts are lacking in some way.
We can only deal with certain artifacts.
Other artifcacts need back up artifacts and photos of people in case you might get the wrong idea
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Thanks Tukuler

quote:

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When looking at the Iuntiu-seti hieroglyphic you can see its a symbol associated with the Intyw (alternate spelling) of the hills east of the Egyptian Nile.

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And Lioness like the above Iuntiu-seti= Aunyt-seni= Esneh, Imn = Amen = Amun sometimes I&A became interchangeable I guess,the below is from a site of a critique of Petrie this is what I found

quote:

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The above translation from the web page is wrong on all counts, although the name of the individual in the figure standing at left comes close. His name (shaded in red) is transliterated as tri-nTr. It can be rendered as Terinetjer (as one example) and can be translated as “One who worships the gods.” This is his name, not a title. The translation of the glyphs I’ve shaded green are still the subject of dispute but the current transliteration is nxn.w (MacArthur 2010: 136), which can be rendered as Nekhenw. It is believed that this is the name of an estate of which Terinetjer may have been in charge (ibid); more on that presently.

The translation from the web page breaks the next set of glyphs into two lines: “of the god Seth / Net Annu-u: ‘of the Cities of the Annu People’s.’” This is incorrect. In my own image this is the area I’ve color-coded blue, and it’s simply a cadrat or square of glyphs all of which belong together when read. The correct translation is Menhet (transliterated mnH[.t]), and is the name of a town. It’s location is not known today but it was probably the nearest settlement of size to the estate called nxn.w (Nekhenw).

The word “Anu” or “Aunu” or other variations does not appear anywhere on this plaque. The web page to which I’ve been referring (see link in opening paragraph) quotes Petrie from his The Making of Egypt:

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http://ancientneareast.org/tag/flinders-petrie/

The main point of the above quote from the link is to make Kemet's early populous kinda fuzzy and and less Afrocentric,but he would still have to deal with Amélineau below even "if" the above is correct and Petrie messed-up Tera Nater which I am not sure he did.


From Amélineau:
Anu the city of Heliopolis (Coptic; On)
Anu Meh Anu of the north (Heliopolis)
Anu Shemo Anu of the south (Hermonthis/Ermant)
Anu Monti Anu of Hermonthis
Anu Tem the Anu of Tem (Hermonthis)
Anu Re the Anu of Re
Afdu Ikhu the Four Ancestors (of the Anu)
Ugrit Goddess of the Duat of Anu
Djandjané Anu the Anu Court of Judges: Tem; Shu; Tefnut; Osiris; Thoth
Anu n Ptoh the Anu of Ptah (Denderah)
Anu n Nut the Anu of Nut (Denderah)

http://thenile.phpbb-host.com/sutra389.php

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Émile Amélineau (1850 – 12 January 1915 at Châteaudun) was a French Coptologist, archaeologist and Egyptologist. His scholarly reputation was established as an editor of previously unpublished Coptic texts. But his reputation was destroyed by his work as a digger at Abydos, after Flinders Petrie re-excavated the site and showed how much destruction Amélineau had wrought.

But his work as an excavator has attracted strong criticism, not least from Flinders Petrie, the founder of modern scientific Egyptology. Amélineau dug at Abydos from 1894 to 1898. Petrie was awarded the concession to dig there by Gaston Maspero, head of the Antiquities Service, after Amélineau had declared that there was nothing more to be found there. Petrie was appalled at what had been done, and did not mince his words. He wrote:

"During four years there had been the scandal of Amelineau's work at the Royal Tombs of Abydos. He had been given a concession to work there for five years; no plans were kept (a few incorrect ones were made later), there was no record of where things were found, no useful publication. He boasted that he had reduced to chips the pieces of stone vases which he did not care to remove, and burnt up the remains of the woodwork of the 1st dynasty in his kitchen.

Jane A. Hill has said that "Amelineau was not an archaeologist and basically plundered the cemetery in search of goods he could sell to antiquities collectors."

________________________________________________

Amelineau's theories of the Anu are not supported by current Egyptology. Current books on ancient usually don't even mention it. It's out of Amelineau imagination.
_______________________


same word, different references:

Neferkamin Anu may have been the second king of the eighth dynasty of ancient Egypt during the First Intermediate Period. As such he would have reigned over the Memphite region. His name is attested on the Abydos King List, and also in the Turin Canon of Kings where he is attributed a reign of 2 years, 1 month and 1 day. Any detail about Neferkamin's reign is lost in a lacuna of the Turin Canon.


_______________________________________

In Sumerian mythology, Anu
(also An; (from Sumerian *An = sky, heaven) was a sky-god, the god of heaven, lord of constellations, king of gods, spirits and demons, and dwelt in the highest heavenly regions. It was believed that he had the power to judge those who had committed crimes, and that he had created the stars as soldiers to destroy the wicked. His attribute was the royal tiara. His attendant and minister of state was the god Ilabrat.

He was one of the oldest gods in the Sumerian pantheon and part of a triad including Enlil (god of the air) and Enki (god of water). He was called Anu by the later Akkadians in Babylonian culture. By virtue of being the first figure in a triad consisting of Anu, Enlil, and Enki (also known as Ea), Anu came to be regarded as the father and at first, king of the gods.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness keeping the Sumerian Anu out of this for a second,are you saying that the Iuntiu/Anu did not exist nor the old kingdom names for their cities?
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Actually the Sumerian term is An period. Anu is the Akkadian name for the deity. Neither of which has anything to do with the Egyptian Anu as far as I'm aware of.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Djehuti

quote:

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Actually the Sumerian term is An period. Anu is the Akkadian name for the deity. Neither of which has anything to do with the Egyptian Anu as far as I'm aware of.

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quote:

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The name Heliopolis is of ancient Greek origin meaning city of the sun as it was the principal seat of worship of the sun god Ra and the closely related deity Atum. Originally, this ancient city was known by the Egyptians as Iunu, from the transliteration ỉwnw,[5] probably pronounced *Āwanu, and means "(Place of) Pillars". In biblical Hebrew Heliopolis was referred to as, Ôn or Āwen .

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Contribution by Wally^
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006973

Modern scholars rarely use the original names of Kemitic cities in publication they substitute Greek and Arabic names for such ex the ancient city of Waset became Luxor Nowe or Wo'se became Thebes and so on,now we know what the Iuntiu-seti/Anu looked liked and that they were still very much around by New Kingdom times, correction made by Tukuler fleshed out by you,in this Lioness must be credited for the link.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ I don't know about these words.

The fact that An is used on place names does not
Émile Amélineau's theories of an early Egyptian people called "Anu" have any credibility. You Might ask Tukuler if he thinks the theory has any credibility. I don't see a basis for it and Amélineau had a bad rep for incompetance. As I had quoted before:

Neferkamin Anu may have been the second king of the eighth dynasty of ancient Egypt during the First Intermediate Period.

^^^ The word Anu there but part of a name but unrelated to Amélineau's concept.


Look a at a book like this:


The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt
By Ian Shaw

http://books.google.com/books?id=-h4gJAlx8o0C&pg=PA67&dq=%22Émile+Amélineau%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kLB3UdioBKm_0gGBwIDgDQ&ved=0CD

^^^^ Amélineau is mentioned but "Anu" is not mentioned.

Appealing theories are not always true. Van Sertima revived this forgotten theory and it's been recylced over and over again since
but not really checked out too much
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Lioness your link when it does mentioned cities it's in Greek form not Kemitic when culture groups are mentioned is done in lettering such as A group in case you missed it.

quote:

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quote: The name Heliopolis is of ancient Greek origin meaning city of the sun as it was the principal seat of worship of the sun god Ra and the closely related deity Atum. Originally, this ancient city was known by the Egyptians as Iunu, from the transliteration ỉwnw,[5] probably pronounced *Āwanu, and means "(Place of) Pillars". In biblical Hebrew Heliopolis was referred to as, Ôn or Āwen .

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Not from Van Sertima,Petrie or Amelineau as matter of fact you reignite my interest in them by posting this which Tukuler expanded on so the Iuntiu/Ani or Anu and their cities exist btw Petrie dating system is still in use regardless of his short comings.

_______Shasu_____Mentu-nu-setet_______Tjehenu______Iuntiu-seti
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
you reignite my interest in them by posting this which Tukuler expanded on so the Iuntiu/Ani or Anu and their cities exist btw Petrie dating system is still in use regardless of his short comings.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
You are not looking at what was said earlier that I&A are sometimes interchangeable as with Imn=Amen=Amun
Imnhotep= Amenhotep

Heliopolis
ancient city was known by the Egyptians as Iunu, from the transliteration ỉwnw,[5] probably pronounced *Āwanu, and means "(Place of) Pillars". In biblical Hebrew Heliopolis was referred to as, Ôn or Āwen .
Iunu is Anu

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
You are not looking at what was said earlier that I&A are sometimes interchangeable as with Imn=Amen=Amun
Imnhotep= Amenhotep

Heliopolis
ancient city was known by the Egyptians as Iunu, from the transliteration ỉwnw,[5] probably pronounced *Āwanu, and means "(Place of) Pillars". In biblical Hebrew Heliopolis was referred to as, Ôn or Āwen .
Iunu is Anu

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It makes sense, if it truly means "come in peace".


http://tinyurl.com/awtlfzz
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Hope to expand on this later (no promisses).
Feel free to add or correct as appropriate.
Please careful if quoting so as not to make
the thread any wider. Sorry but detail ya know!









 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Troll Patrol

quote:

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It makes sense, if it truly means "come in peace".

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ỉỉ-m-ḥtp *jā-im-ḥātap meaning "the one who comes in peace,

That is perhaps where we get our prayer ending from as in Amen
sorry my translator didn't work couldn't read your link..

Lioness was there an ethnic group in Kemet and the lands south of Kemet called Iunu,and are there place names in Kemet bearing the name regardless of Van-Sertima whom I did not reference or Amélineau and Petrie whom I did.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/heliopolis.htm
for answers^ look here
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Iuntiu and Iunu may share the same root word 'iun' but they are still different words and both seem to be unrelated to 'an' or 'Anu'.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Djehuti

quote:

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Iuntiu and Iunu may share the same root word 'iun' but they are still different words and both seem to be unrelated to 'an' or 'Anu'.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Troll Patrol

quote:

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It makes sense, if it truly means "come in peace".

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ỉỉ-m-ḥtp *jā-im-ḥātap meaning "the one who comes in peace,

That is perhaps where we get our prayer ending from as in Amen
sorry my translator didn't work couldn't read your link..

Lioness was there an ethnic group in Kemet and the lands south of Kemet called Iunu,and are there place names in Kemet bearing the name regardless of Van-Sertima whom I did not reference or Amélineau and Petrie whom I did.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/heliopolis.htm
for answers^ look here

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The book is Eternal Egypt: Ancient Rituals for the Modern World

By Richard J. Reidy

Pg. 65

Look for it at google books.


Snippets:







Btw, Van-Sertima was a great scholar, who did excellent work. A great legacy.
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Iuntiu and Iunu may share the same root word 'iun' but they are still different words and both seem to be unrelated to 'an' or 'Anu'.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
[QB] Hope to expand on this later (no promisses).
Feel free to add or correct as appropriate.
Please careful if quoting so as not to make
the thread any wider. Sorry but detail ya know!

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quote:

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Originally posted by mena7:
Tukuler great big post of the 9 bows with translation of their ethnic names and their countries/regions of origin.The Semitic race is very old they are either native African or mixe race.There are no white people in the area.

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mena as an African how often do you see white people in a given week?
Do you have any interactions with them?

I've only seen them on TV
 

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Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
 
Im living in the USA in a mixed neighborhood in majority white.Im working with white, black and hispanic people.Im a peaceful and humanist person I love everybody.I mind my own business and white people mind their own businees.No problem, thats fine.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
------------------------



------------------------
Some old stuff reposted on the Intyw and Irem. Sorry for any redundancy.

From a Medja thread
In our context the "Troglodytes" were people who mostly mined in the
Eastern Desert. They (the YNTYW) enter Nile Valley records under seige.

On the "Palermo" Stone one early ruler whose name is lost has one
year of his reign noted as the "Year of Smiting the Troglodytes."

Khufu has it recorded on a Sinai inscription that he's "Khnum-Khufu,
Great God, Smiter of the Troglodytes."

The YNTYW habitation was called the highlands. Henu, minister of
Mentuhotpe IV, employed them as bodyguards during his Hammamat
expedition "the hunters and the children of the highlands were
posted as the protection of my limbs."

Mentuhotpe IV himself tells us the YNTYW adored Min, "... Min of
Koptos, lord of the highlands, head of the Troglodytes, ..."


Senwosret III named a fort that he had built in Wawat at a site south
of Semnah "Repulse-of-the-Troglodyte's." There was even a "Repulse-of
-the-Troglodyte's" feast on the 21st of Pharmuthi that was celebrated up
to the time of Thutmose III.

That these particular YNTYW were Nehhesyw is further made clear by
Sebekkhu Zaa who says he had to proceed "southward to overthrow the
Troglodytes of Nubia."

The jwntiw-sty in that ANE post were either Troglodytes
from TaSeti or else they were Troglodyte trained as archers. Maybe
even both. Rest assured they were quite African.


Hotep2u wrote:
E.A Budge Egyptian Dictionary Vol.1 page 59b uses the words An-tiu which breaks down as "Eastern Desert Dwellers" from An-tt "Eastern Desert".

Troglodytes are extra mental leaps being added in that interpretation of An-tiu.


al~Takruri:
Antiu is a non-specific ethnonym applicable to people in the
highlands or hill country east of the Nile Valley whether in
the Sinai, the Eastern Desert, or the Nubian Desert. Medjay
were Antiu but were all Antiu Medjay?

Medjay were employed by TaShemau in the wars against the Hyksos
whereas other records make Antiu Seti out as enemies of TaShemaw.

Aahmes, a naval officer, served Ahmose I, Amenophis I, and Tuthmosis I,
all the first kings of the 18th dynasty. Under Ahmose captain Aahmes

quote:

---

sailed up the river to Khenthennefer to crush the Antiu of Sti,

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quote:

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sailed up the river to Kash to extend towards the south the frontiers
of Egypt. His Majesty captured that accursed Anti of Nubia in the
midst of his accursed bowmen;

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quote:

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sailed up the river to Khent-hen-nefer, to put down the rebellion in
Khet land, and to put an end to the incursions of the people of Asemt.

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quote:

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His Majesty sailed down the river having all the mountains and deserts
in his hand. And that accursed Anti of Nubia was hung up head downwards,
at the prow of the boat of His Majesty,

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Unlike those Medjay Antiu in the TaShemau army these "Sti" Antiu
were the ones Kamose complained about when contemplating the three
way power split Kmty government between himelf, Kesh, and the Hyksos.


. . . .


If the miners in the Eastern Desert (Antiu) built their homes directly into
the hills around them instead of erecting their housing then they were troglodytes.

Breasted's use of Troglodyte for the people between the Nile and the Red Sea is
not pejorative. He's following the Greek usage. The Greek texts use Trōglodutai
for them and Plutarch notes Cleopatra's knowledge of Troglodyte language.

Anyway as I wrote before, and it seems to have been missed so I repeat it here,
I agree with Hotep2u's suggested use of Antiu instead of troglodytes for Eastern
Desert/Nubian Desert folk because that's the word in the R3n Mdw and using it
overturns mental colonization.

. . . .

Just yesterday I was reading
a piece by an Italian Egyptologist who mentioned
Yntyw first being applied to south Levantines
before Eastern Desert populations.

Haven't looked into it since then but seem to recall
miners in the Sinai as the oldest reference for Yntyw

[Royal Annals Stone record of Den's x+2 year]

and assumed they were Medjay because Medjay lived
in the Eastern Desert which is adjacent to the Sinai.


. . . .
. . . .

Not much archived about Irem but from ESR


Just judging from the products they bring:
* register 1 is Punt and surrounding Nehesi (Irem, Nem`i)
* register 2 is Crete or some Kefti (islanders more so than Levantine
* register 3 is Kush or Nehesi of their kingdom.

...............

I remember more about the Irem & Nem`i but can find it now.
I will say in my opinion they were west of Punt or were a
western province or confederate of Pwanit. Looking at the
painting and noticing parts south of Kassala were forrested
they have the most forrestlike profile of the Nehesiu in the
mural.


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^^ what is the title of the book these color plates are from thanks.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Iuntiu and Iunu may share the same root word 'iun' but they are still different words and both seem to be unrelated to 'an' or 'Anu'.

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In that light "AnuBis" seems logic as well.

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quote:

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One of the three major cities of ancient Egypt, after Thebes and Memphis, Heliopolis, "city of the sun" in Greek, was situated in the area of Tell Hisn on the northwestern outskirts of modern Cairo. The ancient Egyptian name was Iunu, or iwnw, meaning pillar. The word meaning "pillar" points even more so to the type of object, a part of architecture, that couldn't be confused with a people

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Really good stuff Tukuler I am even more convinced that my post to Lioness is correct Intiu refers to the aboriginal inhabitants of the Nile valley during the pre-Dynastic period, was one of reverence, and translates as 'pillar people'... apparently
Innu then named after its pillars, pylons..translating as 'place of pillars, notice the pillars in glyph for the Intiu

Lioness

quote:

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One of the three major cities of ancient Egypt, after Thebes and Memphis, Heliopolis, "city of the sun" in Greek, was situated in the area of Tell Hisn on the northwestern outskirts of modern Cairo. The ancient Egyptian name was Iunu, or iwnw, meaning pillar. The word meaning "pillar" points even more so to the type of object, a part of architecture, that couldn't be confused with a people

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^^^^ "The Pillar People"

are you out of your mind?

A generic designation of the desert nomads of Nubia was the term Iuntiu or Iuntiu-setiu ,
"Nubian tribesmen (lit. 'bowmen')."
The names which the Egyptians
used to refer to the various parts of Nubia and its different peoples usually changed depending upon the era and the particular tribal group in a given area.



Iuntiu Seti

^^^^ this is how they depict your forefathers, bound enemies?
And they are depicted inthe exact same garb as the Kushites, no doubt closely related unless the Egyptians were stereotyping

and no pillar

________________________________________________
.
no relation to:



what we have here is a man's name and the city and town he came from

tri-nTr.
The man's name .
It can be rendered as Terinetjer (as one example) translated as “One who worships the gods.”

nxn.w
which can be rendered as Nekhenw. It is believed that this is the name of an estate of which Terinetjer may have been in charge.

mnH[.t]
rendered Menhet ), and is the name of a town.

no Anu either

_______________________________________________________


Now you could attempt to look up the glyphs in Faulkner, Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian and a copy of Gardiner's sign list

but you won't do that because that might expose the fanatasy

 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

See the label with the Bow and three pillars??that's what I am talking about. the same rule would go for another ethnic group Ta-Seti



Ta-Seti the Bow people or people of the Bow so nothing is strange here,and if their presence were being felt as far north in the Sinai then there is nothing strange that they would be setting up shop in Upper kemet during pre-dynastic times,their cousins the Ta-Setians did.

quote:

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this is how they depict your forefathers, bound enemies? And they are depicted inthe exact same garb as the Kushites, no doubt closely related unless the Egyptians were stereotyping and no pillar

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The Kamites and all Nile valley and non Nile Valley people in Africa are all my relatives,sometimes families duke it out take for instance England and her former Colony America.
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
The bound Nehesi don't seem to be depicted with the Terra Neter-like mandible Petrie saw as real and characteristic for this ethnic group after seeing this mandible type occur in the skeletal remains of certain proto-dynastic burials.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Well we are looking at art separated by space and time one was done in pre dynastic era the other in the new kingdom,perhaps by the time of the new kingdom they were being absorb by the Kush in culture ie (dress) and features much like the Kush and Kemties started to mix their fashion below

 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^True.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:



Ta-Seti the Bow people or people of the Bow so nothing is strange here,and if their presence were being felt as far north in the Sinai then there is nothing strange that they would be setting up shop in Upper kemet during pre-dynastic times,their cousins the Ta-Setians did.

quote:

---

this is how they depict your forefathers, bound enemies? And they are depicted inthe exact same garb as the Kushites, no doubt closely related unless the Egyptians were stereotyping and no pillar

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The Kamites and all Nile valley and non Nile Valley people in Africa are all my relatives,sometimes families duke it out take for instance England and her former Colony America.

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Kushites and Intiu Seti were aboriginal to the Nile valley we already knew that.
Your relatives are from Sudan?



the glyph to the right of the bow, ^^^ to the best of my knowledge is not the glyph for pillar or several glyphs relating to pillar. Djed and others


 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
test
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

Kushites and Intiu Seti were aboriginal to the Nile valley we already knew that...

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Yeah and so to were the Egyptians. What is your point?

By the way, there is a difference between the Setjau (people of the kingdom of Ta-Seti) and the Intiu and Kushites.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

quote:

---

The glyph to the right of the bow, ^^^ to the best of my knowledge is not the glyph for pillar or several glyphs relating to pillar. Djed and others

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OWNED!!
I don't know why I am having problems posting just now but the best of your knowledge sucs. the Djed Pillar is the Djed Pillar actually I am kinda insulted you would try and pull an obvious fast one on me like that..come on Lioness
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

To Tukuler: Very interesting posts or re-posts. So Antyw is a generic name as well and that the second name attached makes a distinction. I especially find it interesting how these names in early times were applied to people in the Sinai area as well. Is it possible these early Sinai folks are in some way related to folks in the eastern desert? From what I understand, the earliest known label given to Sinai people is 'Monitu', which recalls the Mentu nu-Setet people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

The fact that An is used on place names does not
Émile Amélineau's theories of an early Egyptian people called "Anu" have any credibility. You Might ask Tukuler if he thinks the theory has any credibility. I don't see a basis for it ...

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Wasn't too long ago I asked for expansion
on the Anu theme and which scholars have
followed up on Amelineau's theory so I
don't know much of anything at all about
the Anu except what I read in Diop and ES.

Right now all I can do is trace Brada and
DJ's footsteps into the dictionary and the
etymologies.

Brada posted

and DJ cautioned "Iuntiu and Iunu may share the same root word 'iun' but
they are still different words and both seem to be unrelated to 'an' or 'Anu'."

to which I'll add these three caveats

1 - 2 -

3 - Looking over Aames' text his Antiu of Sti foemen were at Khent-Hen-Nefer which connotes both frontier and founders.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:


Intiu Seti

quote:

---

The glyph to the right of the bow, ^^^ to the best of my knowledge is not the glyph for pillar or several glyphs relating to pillar. Djed and others

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OWNED!!
I don't know why I am having problems posting just now but the best of your knowledge sucs. the Djed Pillar is the Djed Pillar actually I am kinda insulted you would try and pull an obvious fast one on me like that..come on Lioness

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Silly, that is not the same glyph
Only one part of it may be matching but in a multiple of three




^^^ Iunu is indicated by three separate different symbols. Last three at bottom

The Intiu Seti glyph has shoulder-like humps on it. It may or may not be pillar or it may be a variation.
Two symbols are missing if it was Heliopolis and the vertical glyphs are in a set of three unlike the pillar for Heliopolis which only has one.
Therefore you can't assume Helipolis is being referred to, not at all. You have to islolate each glyph

And we are dealing with Intiu not Iunu

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Iuntiu and Iunu may share the same root word 'iun' but they are still different words and both seem to be unrelated to 'an' or 'Anu'.

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^^^^ this is where you fail Brada, your horse hasn't even left the gate



^^^^ you see where Helipolis is? It's way up where the delta begins to branch out, You theory does not make sense.
Helipolis distance to Nubia in modern terms is about the distance from Cairo to Aswan, 424 miles


He's Sudanese, to use modern terms


a place of pillars in Nubia?
maybe
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
wait, going back over Tukulers last post (credit due)




______________________^^^^
______________________this one , and you got your "An" too
______________________Intiu Seti = An-ti Seti

.

____________________________________AND HERE



Problem solved case closed,
nice try

lioness productions
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

He's Sudanese, to use modern terms


a place of pillars in Nubia?
maybe

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Didn't feel like writing a new composition.
Remember, I wrote that stuff six years ago
and posted it with no revisionss or update.
Like you say its wiser to omit the Medja.

To understand the Antyw we need reference
a map of Africa/Arabian peninsula oriented
so northwest to southeast is horizontal with
the Red Sea at the top. All the hilly area to
the left and bottom of the Red Sea is the
Intyw range from Sinai to the Nubian Desert.
Antt is the name of this region, its people
Antiu.

This is not to say they were all one ethny.
There were two great geographic divisions
demarked by bow vs hide determinatives --
i.e., Nubian Desert vs Sinai Palestine.

And yes something very similar is going on
for the Mentiu as written in a post on page
one. I may expand on that later.

---

Yes, yes, I am very much interested in the relationship between the folks of the Eastern Desert and those of the Sinai and Arabian folks on the other side of the Red Sea. This goes back to what Dana Marniche and David Goldenberg said about 'Ethiopia' including Arabia and ancient 'Arabia' including the eastern side of Egypt and Sudan up to the Nile.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

You said

quote:

---

Intiu Seti ^^^^ this is how they depict your forefathers, bound enemies? And they are depicted inthe exact same garb as the Kushites, no doubt closely related unless the Egyptians were stereotyping and no pillar

---

After doing a bad job cropping the photo leaving out the symbol for pillar you went straight for the Djed pillar.



This is a symbol of a city:
Me quoting Me.

quote:

---

I am even more convinced that my post to Lioness is correct Intiu refers to the aboriginal inhabitants of the Nile valley during the pre-Dynastic period, was one of reverence, and translates as 'pillar people'... apparently Innu then named after its pillars, pylons..translating as 'place of pillars, notice the pillars in glyph for the Intiu

---

 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

quote:

---

______________________^^^^
______________________this one , and you got your "An" too
______________________Intiu Seti = An-ti Seti

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Okay I see you get it now..
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Amenhotep III's refusal to allow one of his daughters to be married to the Babylonian monarch may indeed be connected with Egyptian traditional royal practices that could provide a claim upon the throne through marriage to a royal princess, or, it be viewed as a shrewd attempt on his part to enhance Egypt's prestige over those of her neighbours in the international world.

The pharaoh's reign was relatively peaceful and uneventful. The only recorded military activity by the king is commemorated by three rock-carved stelas from his fifth year found near Aswan and Sai Island in Nubia. The official account of Amenhotep III's military victory emphasizes his martial prowess with the typical hyperbole used by all pharaohs.

Regnal Year 5, third month of Inundation, day 2. Appearance under the Majesty of Horus: Strong bull, appearing in truth; Two Ladies: Who establishes laws and pacifies the Two Lands;...King of Upper and Lower Egypt: Nebmaatra, heir of Ra; Son of Ra: [Amenhotep, ruler of Thebes], beloved of [Amon]-Ra, King of the Gods, and Khnum, lord of the cataract, given life. One came to tell His Majesty, "The fallen one of vile Kush has plotted rebellion in his heart." His Majesty led on to victory; he completed it in his first campaign of victory. His Majesty reached them like the wing stroke of a falcon, like Menthu (war god of Thebes) in his transformation...Ikheny, the boaster in the midst of the army, did not know the lion that was before him. Nebmaatra was the fierce-eyed lion whose claws seized vile Kush, who trampled down all its chiefs in their valleys, they being cast down in their blood, one on top of the other

Amemhotep III
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
DJ

quote:

---

To Tukuler: Very interesting posts or re-posts. So Antyw is a generic name as well and that the second name attached makes a distinction. I especially find it interesting how these names in early times were applied to people in the Sinai area as well. Is it possible these early Sinai folks are in some way related to folks in the eastern desert? From what I understand, the earliest known label given to Sinai people is 'Monitu', which recalls the Mentu nu-Setet people

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Did someone said the Mentu hollowed out their homes in caves if so wasn't that a distinctive feature in 11th dyn architecture which kinda fit neatly with the names of three Pharaohs of that era?

sA Hw.t-Hr nb(.t) iwn.t, mnTw-Htp The son of Hathor, the lady of Dendara, Mentuhotep.

Temple of Mentuhotep Nebhepetr
Almost forgot he Mentuhotep called himself son of the first born Nahasi

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=007406
Excellent^^ thread by Tukuler germane to this one
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

A generic designation of the desert nomads of Nubia was the term Iuntiu or Iuntiu-setiu ,
"Nubian tribesmen (lit. 'bowmen')."
The names which the Egyptians
used to refer to the various parts of Nubia and its different peoples usually changed depending upon the era and the particular tribal group in a given area.

---

quote:

---

Iuntiu Seti

^^^^ this is how they depict your forefathers, bound enemies?
And they are depicted inthe exact same garb as the Kushites, no doubt closely related unless the Egyptians were stereotyping.

---

Again, obviously the Egyptians were not stereotypig if unlike YOU they did not group all the Nehesi toghether but distinguished them by their actual ethnicities. You say they wear the same garb, but again the same is true for the Asiatics who are also bound.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djeshiteater:
You say they wear the same garb, but again the same is true for the Asiatics who are also bound.

---

that doesn't make sense. Each Asiatic has numerous details in their garb that are distinctly different. The Nubians are each shown nearly exactly the same clothing.
And most of the the Asiatics are at much greater geographic separations from each other
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^^ LOL

YOU make no sense!






^ Note the Asiatics wear the exact same garb with same details the ONLY difference is the color patterns. The overall colors of the Asiatic garb is the same with certain articles like belts, sashes, and shoulder drapes alternating in color depending on the ethnicity. As for the Asiatics having "much greater geographic separations" look again, twit!



^ Which geographic area is larger? The Fertile Crescent i.e. the home of the Asiatics or Nubia including the Eastern Desert? Which is also more sparsely settled, again the Fertile crescent which has more fertile land and hence the name, or the other region??
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Are the Libyans Asiatic? In a sense no in a sense yes. The Libyan lives in Africa. Yet looking at him he resembles the Asiatics in these inner Tomb paintings Libyans look more like Asiatics than they do Egyptians. Why is this? Probably Phoenician ancestry. And below in the Book of gates Tomb of Rameses III as in original photos the Libyan is portrayed in some cases (not all) as even lighter skinned than the Syrian. Why this is I don't know but I have noticed it sometimes. In other cases they look darker. There are different types of Libyans also. Some are portrayed as yellowish others reddish brown and with sometimes sharp noses
The garb is similar I should have said hairstyle and beards if the Libyan is to be excluded.

>>>> the point is that each of the Asiatics are easily distingishable from each other and the Libyan.
Stop nitpicking

There is no distinguishing feature between the Nubians.
Why I don't know




A compilation of the glass and faience inlays depicting the traditional enemies of Ancient Egypt, found at/by the royal palace adjacent to the temple of Medinet Habu, from the reign of Ramesses III (1182-1151 B.C.) Representations are (in order) a pair of Nubians, a Philistine, an Amorite, a Syrian and a Hittite. On display at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.

^^^ as here without glyphs you cannot tell if the two Nubians at left are specific ethnic groups

The last four all look different from each other
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Before we diverge into the inevitable picture spam,can we consider the Mentu named kings of the 11th dyn as part of the Mentu nu-Setet people?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=BMhAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA277-IA56&lpg=PA277-

Graphic Work of the Egyptian Expedition
By Norman de Garis Davies
THE GRAPHIC WORK OF THE EXPEDITION
1911

Last season was spent mainly in the necropolis of Thebes, though five weeks were passed in the Great Oasis since the drawings for the publication of the temple of Hibis needed to be checked and the work in the field brought to a conclusion. The greater part of the remaining time was spent by me in revising and completing the illustration of the tomb of Nefer-hotep (no. 49), work which the darkness and the defaced condition of the walls has rendered unexpectedly long and difficult. Both Wilkinson and I were also employed in making the last copies in the tomb of Rekh-mi-Re". The time which my wife could give to us was unavoidably cut short this year and was mainly devoted to the same two tombs. Perhaps the last fortnight of my stay proved the most productive, however, since a tomb which had seemed little more than a hopeless ruin yielded up a jewel and, by the two fragments which it still contained, has decided the twofold subject of this report.
i. Royalty And The Cat Tomb 12o lies open on the hillside. Its rock roof has fallen in and the masses of stone have half buried the two chambers. The tipper parts of the walls of the outer room have been stripped as well by the malice of man and, so far as can be seen, only two presentable fragments survive. As the king plays a part in both of these surviving fragments, the inference is that the mutilation of the rest was at his instance. When paying a somewhat casual visit to the tomb one day, I recalled that I had once had reason to hope for better things below the debris at a certain point and the lifting of a few stones confirmed this. The picture widened and bettered with every basketful removed, and it was soon plain that it was going to be almost a replica of the lower part of the great throne scene in Tomb 226, a copy of the reassembled fragments of
which has long been in the Museum. Eventually the bottom was reached, but, as the tomb could not be thoroughly cleared this year, a tracing and the painting of a detail had to suffice.
The decoration of the inner room is curiously different from the outer. First thoughts might suggest the reign of Hatshepsut; second ones, the Ramesside era. The subject is funerary; the ground color is a purplish drab; and no merit is obvious in the work. But this conclusion may be hasty, for every design has been carefully and independently cut out, as if the perpetrator wished to enjoy the full taste of his malice. Fortunately one scrap of text is less illegible than the rest and identifies the owner with "the second priest of Amun, 'O-nen."1 This is important, for in this man we have the brotherof Queen Tiv_The pertinacity viiili Wllllll Ainenhotpe IV (Akh-en-Aten) pursued his Atenist hobby in the necropolis is here vividly presented to us, since he is wrecking the tomb of his maternal uncle, blotting out his figure, and allowing only those of his own father and mother to survive. One can almost see his arm itching to descend upon these also. However, they were spared to adorn the Bulletin, and, what is more, the great fragment seems to have been painted with a care of which no other surviving traces give any signs.
The royal pair (figs, i and 2) were seated in a pavilion within a pavilion, the canopy of the inner one being supported on lotus columns; that of the outer, on columns with a capital of open papyrus (as in Tombs 48 and 226). This erection is set on a stepped dais, which, as it lies beneath the feet of the king, is adorned with figures of the peoples assumed to be subject to Egypt, at once united and throttled by the plants of South
1 Davis, Tomb of louiya, p. 18. Liehlein, Dictionnaire des noms hieroglyphiques, 6o6.


and North Egypt, like slaves strung on a common rope. Queen Tiy sits in an armchair, dressed in a flowing white robe which is gathered in by a red sash wound round and round the waist. She carries the ceremonial whisk and 'ankb-emb\em; the latter, in this case, is made up of little beads and adorned with lotus flowers, or else is entirely floral. She wears the vulture crown with the heads of the snake-goddess of the North and the vulture-goddess of the South attached to it, and the high feathers set on a base ornamented with uraei. The back of her chair seems to have been adorned with the figures of two winged snakes, which, by extending one wing along each arm, completely embrace the occupant. An additional row of uraei is probably in open woodwork and bright with paint and gilding. The frame and the legs of the chair are carried out in ebony inlaid with lines of ivory, with gilded castors and minor parts. The queen's feet rest on a cushioned footstool.
Her husband, Amen-hotpe III, is supposed to be seated at her left side. He quite outshines her in the intricacy and color of his dress; for, though his long gown is a simple white, it is overlaid with so much finery that only the lower part of it is seen. On the breast it is bound round by a red sash. The stiffer overskirt which projects above the knees is light red, fringed with blue and red. and over this the broad end of the richly decorated sash hangs down. Whether this was in embroidery or woven stuff, the row of uraei on the lower hem seems to be inlaid in gold. A tight-fitting white undergarment ends at the ankles in a deep fringe. An extremely artificial and uninteresting bouquet is planted in the platform in front of his feet, bending over as if to extend its scented tip to the royal nostril of its own impulse. The sides of the footstool are painted with figures of the Syrian and the negro, crushed beneath the king's feet. The design on the arm of his chair (fig. 3) is carried out in carved and painted woodwork. We were familiar with it already in finest relief from other tombs of this reign (48 and 57); here we have it in beautiful line. The legs are those of a lion, but the head and mane attached directly to
them are so small that the connection is merely hinted at. However, it has not become absurd as in the case of the couches of Tut-'ankh-Amun. These legs are connected by gilt openwork, symbolic of the union of North and South.
The "nine peoples of the bow" on the dais do not include any thoroughly Egyptian localities, but they do include the everrebellious peoples of the upper Nile and of Libya who are not reckoned among the loyal. If the truth of the ethnic portraiture here is more than questionable, at least the preservation is perfect — so that we have no doubt as to how the artist pictured them to himself—and their decorative value is beyond cavil. The peoples of the North and the South alternate for artistic reasons. The list of the former seems to move round the land of Egypt in a direction contrary to that of a clock. On the right we have the land of Babylonia (Sen-^ar), of Mitanni (Naharin), of the Cretans (Keftiu), of Libya (Tehenu), of the Bedu (Shasu). The peoples of the South are those of Kush. Irem, luntiu-seti, and Mentu-nu-setet. These four negro figures are given no individuality beyond that of varying grades of ugliness.





The three representatives of the northeast all wear much the same long robe with fringed cape, swathed skirt, and broad belt. and have the same fair (but not very fair) complexion. Only their hair differs, being long and curled in the far east, shaved (except the beard) on the upper Euphrates, bushy in the deserts of the southeast. This uniformity is very unsatisfactory. The Libyan is typical (fig, 4), but is he typical of the race or of the picture that passed as typical? With the figure labeled "Keftiu" and surely from Crete or from a region which included Crete, we are brought to a halt, wishing very much that the preceding figures had given us confidence in the reliability of the artist. For this (fig. 5) is something quite new in the presentation of a Keftian; new, for there is nothing at all that resembles the customary type except the three locks falling to the waist behind.*
• The lock falling in front over the breast corresponds to a Cretan lady's coiffure but is rarely seen on men (Kvans, Palace of Minos, vol. II, pp. 755 and 79i)' It has some resemblance to




for the long Syrian sleeves and the division of the hair behind, the man might be worth study if he had been presented as a Hittite. And as the latter nation is not included in the list—as it should have been on account of its political importance, greater than that of Crete at the time—one ventures to ask
Hittite sculpture (Schaefer-Andrae. Kunst des alten Orients, pp. 56o and 564; Miiller, Asien und Europa, p. 352), but most resembles the Libyan lock (fig. 4).
3The long robe, I think, is only once documented, and that very doubtfully, for a Cretan youth (Evans, Palace of Minos, vol. II, p. 721). For the cap on a Syrian girl, see Miiller, Asien und Europa, p. 3oo.
existjavascript:%20x()ed which would more or less justify this presentation. But we need not try to save the face of our artist; there is more ground for crediting the majority of the artists — and, no doubt, the Egyptian nation generally—with surpassing ignorance of their far empire. In fact, it had become so markedly a political fiction that it is well shown here in a fictitious illustration.
Had these figures been true to fact, they might have been the most valuable feature of my discovery. As it is, the palm must be given to a side show, if it may be termed so. The main scene evidently depicted a very



[IMG]much that empire on the northwest which was getting beside itself at the sight of this harvest reaped so lightly under the very nose of its rivals. This obvious reflection might have been made by any observant man in a Theban street, and equally by any keen-witted visitor to this tomb, who looked, not at the self-satisfied figures on the throne or before it, but—under the queen's chair. I do not credit the artist with the intention of uttering a most timely parable; but high humor when close to nature may be pregnant with subconscious truth, like other forms of art. At any rate what is seen under the chair is a gem of comedy and a superlative piece of color work (fig. 6; from a painting). A more than usually satisfying cat, royal in a well-kept coat of
few artists could have better rendered the slim, lean-loined, nimble animal, ever on the leap and never failing in its hold or its aim, or have contrasted it better with the creature that, gifted with all agility at need, is happiest in long repose. The bright green of the monkey, the rich stripes of the cat, and the delicate feathering of the bird are shown up by the glaring black and white lines of the chair and the dull green mat which frame in the episode, and are modified by the golden ground against which the whole scene within the pavilion is backed. The artist, if acquitted of political allusions, is at least aware of the comedy of human life, which can be matched in all its essential phases by life on lower planes and often reduced to its true terms by the comparison.



aint of polytheism, see in the cat an image of Bastet or Sakhmet? Or did the reactionary smell out, somewhat as I have done, a political symbolism and see in Tiy's favorite an emblem of her mistress's design to stifle the sacred goose of Amun? More likely, the poor man who laid a friend to rest in a coffin buried in the debris just below the picture did not like to leave the cat at large so close to the dead, but did not recognize, or else did not fear, the unfamiliar monkey. In any case, the head is gone—and its loss is very regrettable.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Brada if you haven't already done it, for posterity's sake please copy the above text , all Tukuler's plates, the first picture of the thread my post


And this:




to Reloaded

this thread could get deleted at some point

 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

quote:

---

The peoples of the South are those of Kush. Irem, luntiu-seti, and Mentu-nu-setet. These four negro figures are given no individuality beyond that of varying grades of ugliness.

---

Seems like subjective bull shiiit to me

Nothing ugly ^^about this guy that they are similar in dress yes, they may even be some how related if not ethnically then perhaps politically to emergent Kush yes..then again I am asking can we not look into the possible connection between the Mentuhoteps and the Mentu-nu-setet given what we now know about their cousins the luntiu-seti.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Will archive everything I think it's an important Thread,may do so when the thread ran it's course.

Lioness

quote:

---

Brada if you haven't already done it, for posterity's sake please copy the above text , all Tukuler's plates, the first picture of the thread my post

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
[QUOTE] The peoples of the South are those of Kush. Irem, luntiu-seti, and Mentu-nu-setet. These four negro figures are given no individuality beyond that of varying grades of ugliness.
Nothing ugly ^^about this guy that they are similar in dress yes, they may even be some how related if not ethnically then perhaps politically to emergent Kush yes..then again I am asking can we not look into the possible connection between the Mentuhoteps and the Mentu-nu-setet given what we now know about their cousins the luntiu-seti.

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That remark is racist, however there is much other detail to be learned from in this 1911 text. It may be the most detailed discussion of this artifact written and menstions other things about the costuming of all the figures.

For example this term " Mentu-nu-setet" is used here. I am not sure who first used it in a modern text.
I don't see it mentioned anywhere else at all

I also recommend reading more from the same book
Bulletin of The metropolitan Museum of Art
Graphic Work of the Egyptian Expedition
By Norman de Garis Davies


http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA277-IA56&lpg=PA277-IA56&dq=%22Mentu+nu-Setet%22&id=BMhAAAAAYAAJ&ots=sO8SjBA_A9#v=onepage&q=hair&f=false

what is your proceedure in archiving? How do you do it exactly?
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
It is time consuming but I take the posts not filled with off topic banter and simply re-post them as is with folks names minus the avatar pics.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
feather headed Somali nomad




 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

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quote:

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Tomb reveals Ancient Egypt’s humiliating secret
Our correspondent reports on how details of crushing defeat by another Nile superpower were kept hidden

By Dalya Alberge
ANCIENT Egyptians “airbrushed” out of history one of their most humiliating defeats in battle, academics believe. In what the British Museum described as the discovery of a lifetime, a 3,500-year-old inscription shows that the Sudanese kingdom of Kush came close to destroying its northern neighbour.
The revelation is contained in 22 lines of sophisticated hieroglyphics deciphered by Egyptologists from the British Museum and Egypt after their discovery in February in a richly decorated tomb at El Kab, near Thebes, in Upper Egypt.

Vivian Davies, Keeper of the museum’s Department of Ancient Egypt and Sudan, said: “In many ways this is the discovery of a lifetime, one that changes the textbooks. We’re absolutely staggered by it.”

The inscription details previously unknown important battles unprecedented “since the time of the god” — the beginning of time. Experts now believe that the humiliation of defeat was one that the Ancient Egyptians preferred to omit from their historical accounts.

Contemporary Egyptian descriptions had led historians to assume that the kingdom of Kush was a weak and barbaric neighbouring state for hundreds of years, although it boasted a complex society with vast resources of gold dominating the principal trade routes into the heart of Africa. It did eventually conquer Egypt, in the 8th century BC.

Mr Davies, who headed the joint British Museum and Egyptian archaeological team, said: “Now it is clear that Kush was a superpower which had the capacity to invade Egypt. It was a huge invasion, one that stirred up the entire region, a momentous event that is previously undocumented.

“They swept over the mountains, over the Nile, without limit. This is the first time we’ve got evidence. Far from Egypt being the supreme power of the Nile Valley, clearly Kush was at that time.

“Had they stayed to occupy Egypt, the Kushites might have eliminated it. That’s how close Egypt came to extinction. But the Egyptians were resilient enough to survive, and shortly afterwards inaugurated the great imperial age known as the New Kingdom. The Kushites weren’t interested in occupation. They went raiding for precious objects, a symbol of domination. They did a lot of damage.”

The inscription was found between two internal chambers in a rock-cut tomb that was covered in soot and dirt. It appeared gradually as the grime was removed.

Mr Davies said: “I thought it would be a religious text, but it turned out to be historical. Gradually, a real narrative emerged, a brand new text inscribed in red paint, reading from right to left.”

The tomb belonged to Sobeknakht, a Governor of El Kab, an important provincial capital during the latter part of the 17th Dynasty (about 1575-1550BC).

The inscription describes a ferocious invasion of Egypt by armies from Kush and its allies from the south, including the land of Punt, on the southern coast of the Red Sea. It says that vast territories were affected and describes Sobeknakht’s heroic role in organising a counter-attack.

The text takes the form of an address to the living by Sobeknakht: “Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw. . .” It describes the decisive role played by “the might of the great one, Nekhbet”, the vulture-goddess of El Kab, as “strong of heart against the Nubians, who were burnt through fire”, while the “chief of the nomads fell through the blast of her flame”.

The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Kushite tombs: they were war trophies.

Mr Davies said: “That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It’s the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings’ power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures.”

The alabaster vessel is contemporary with the latter part of the 17th Dynasty. It bears a funerary text “for the spirit of the Governor, Hereditary Prince of Nekheb, Sobek- nakht”. Now it is clear that it was looted from Sobeknakht’s tomb, or an associated workshop, by the Kushite forces and taken back to Kerma, where it was buried in the precincts of the tomb of the Kushite king who had led or inspired the invasion.

The El Kab tomb was looted long ago, probably in antiquity. There is more to investigate at the enormous site and the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt is now making such work a priority.

Rich pickings from ebony and ivory

Kush was a vast territory spanning modern-day northern Sudan. Ruled by kings who were buried with large quantities of luxury goods, including jewellery and inlaid furniture, it had complex political and religious institutions.

The economy was based on trading in ivory, ebony and incense, as well as slaves. Its skilled craftsmen left behind some of the finest ceramics produced in the ancient world.

The independent kingdom of Kush arose during the 8th century BC. The native kings laid claim to the Egyptian throne, declaring themselves the true heirs of Thutmose III and other great pharaonic ancestors. Under the leadership of King Piye (c747-716BC), they conquered Egypt, ruling as its 25th Dynasty.

The reign of King Taharqo (690-664BC) was a high point of the Kushite empire. He erected imposing temples, shrines and statues throughout the Nile Valley. His pyramid, the largest of the Kushite examples, soared to more than 48m (160ft).

Over 4,000 years interaction between the empires was inevitable. While they had different funerary practices at the time of the El Kab inscription — the Egyptians had tombs and pyramids while the Kushites preferred tumuli (grave mounds) — the Kushites went on to build pyramids and mummify their dead.

In return, the Egyptians were particularly influenced by Kushite jewellery design.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article851852.ece

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quote:

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During the 19th century boom in Egyptian archaeology the tomb of Elkab's 17th-dynasty governor Sobeknakht was discovered. Though its whereabouts were published it was subsequently neglected. Until recently it continued to sit undisturbed upon the cliffs overlooking the Nile south of Luxor, accrued grime and soot obscuring many of its internal inscriptions. Only this year have the tomb's soiled walls been cleaned to reveal an inscription relating a hitherto unknown Kushite raid upon Egypt that has been abuzz with superlatives and speculation among Egyptologists.

Earlier this year a number of British and Egyptian conservators under the aegis of the British Museum began work at the tomb in response to concerns about its deteriorating condition. In the process of cleaning the walls between the tomb's inner and outer chambers they stumbled upon an inscription believed to be the first evidence of a huge attack from the south on Elkab and Egypt by the Kingdom of Kush and its allies from the land of Punt, during the 17th dynasty (1575-1525 BC). The newly discovered inscription is a biographical text painted in 22 horizontal red hieroglyphic lines that narrate the Kushite attack on Egypt and Sobeknakht's successful counter- attack that expelled the invaders. "It is a very important military and religious inscription that was previously unknown," Culture Minister Farouk Hosni told Al Ahram Weekly and asserted that it is the most significant piece to emerge about the 17th dynasty since the famous Kamose stella, now on display at the Luxor museum.

Though Egyptologists had known that tension existed between the Kingdom of Kush, which lay along the Nile in present-day southern Sudan, and Egypt during the period in question, they had no evidence of the kind of clash reported by the inscription.

"This is completely unparalleled," affirmed Vivian Davies, who headed the mission, in an interview from London with the Weekly. Davies initially assumed that the inscription was a religious text because it was near the burial shaft where the spirit of the dead rose to begin its spiritual life. However, as conservators continued to clean the inscription it was clear that it was not a routine funerary text but a biographical text chronicling events from the life of the tomb's owner Sobeknakht.

The text recounts his role in the crisis, from his command to strengthen the defences of Elkab to his mustering of a force to combat the Nubians to his successful counter-attack southwards which destroyed an enemy force through the aid of Elkab's vulture-goddess Nekhbet. The inscription ends with an account of celebration in the presence of the Egyptian king, who is not identified by name, and of the temple of Nekhbet's endowment with a sacred boat.

Evidence corroborating the general scheme of these events have also recently been found in Sudan, where archchaeologists discovered a vessel that was once in Sobeknakht's tomb. Davies stated that this vessel proves that during the invasion Sobeknakht's tomb was already prepared for the old governor's death. Relatedly, early studies on the inscription revealed that it was a late addition to the tomb, as it was painted in red on the outer chamber, which, according to the Ancient Egyptian taboo, made it untouchable. Davies added that as the tomb's decorations were completely finished by the time of the Kushite attack the corridor between the two chambers was the only space left to record such an event.

Davies is not alone in his feeling that the inscription forces a reconsideration of Egyptian history. Zahi Hawass, secretary general of the supreme council of antiquities (SCA), stated that it sheds new light on the extent of Egypt's vulnerability during that period, when the native Upper-Egyptian 17th dynasty centred in Thebes was engaged in a war of independence against the Lower-Egyptian Hyksos who were based in Avaris in the Nile Delta.

"It was a pincer movements on Egypt," Hawass told the Weekly. He said that success by either Kush or Hyksos would have changed the face of Egypt, even up to the present day. Mamdouh El-Damadi, the director general of the Egyptian Museum in Cairo, also emphasised how important the inscription is for understanding Kushite ambitions in Egypt. Davies chimed in on this point in stating, "We always thought that the Hyksos were the greatest of Egypt's enemy but Kush was as well." The defeat of the Kush-led invasion represented in Sobeknakht's tomb may come to be interpreted a critical event in Egypt's subsequent defeat of the Hyksos and expansion of its nascent empire into Palestine and Sudan.

The dramatic nature of this discovery begs the question of what revived interest in a site that was catalogued over a century ago and then essentially ignored.

Two years ago, as part of the Egypt and Sudan Department of the British Museum's substantial archaeological programme covering Nile Valley sites and monuments threatened by modern development or in dire need of conservation, Sobeknakht's tomb was finally put on a scientific agenda. Its inclusion in this programme is due to its distressing material condition and its status as the only surviving tomb datable to this crucial transitional period in Egypt's history.

"For us the tomb was like a patient in dire need of urgent care," said Lameya El-Hadidi, one of two Egyptian conservators on the British Museum team. After difficulties finding a solution that would clean the walls without damaging the inscriptions, the team finally settled on small pieces of cotton dampened with distilled water as the best option. However, El-Hadidi explained that the tomb was suffering from not only the accumulation of grime and soot but also from bat waste and bee hives. Among the other obstacles to the tomb's conservation were poor lighting and ventilation, with the effect of the latter being that the conservators were forced to breathe foul air peppered with dust and bat excrement. However, the fruits harvested of this labour went beyond the discovery of the inscription discussed above.

El-Hadidi confirmed that, "what made us put behind our fatigue was the beautiful illustrations that appeared piece by piece while cleaning."

Scenes featuring Sobeknakht with his children and wife were among the iconic ornamentation found. A number of monkeys, some in symbolically erotic poses, are also engraved on the tomb's walls.

A particularly striking scene shows monkeys sitting on the offering table eating the deceased's food.

"It is a cheeky scene," Davies told the Weekly, suggesting that the tomb's artist had a unique sense of humour.

Images from Sobeknakht's Tomb

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quote:

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Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

From Amélineau:
Anu, the city of Heliopolis (Coptic; On)
Anu Meh, Anu of the north (Heliopolis)

Anu Shemo, Anu of the south (Hermonthis/Ermant)
Anu Monti, Anu of Hermonthis
Anu Tem, the Anu of Tem (Hermonthis)

Anu n Ptoh, the Anu of Ptah (Denderah)
Anu n Nut, the Anu of Nut (Denderah)

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quote:

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AswaniAswad posted 18 July, 2009 03:20 PM

there was a Intyw in greaco-latin the Troglodyte which they speak of all the way to eritrea coast of Massawa. East of the River Nile is attested to be the lands of Medjay but how far down threw the coast of Sudan Like Suwakin,Port Sudan.

Beja Heritage claim that they have always occupied lands next to Nubians and Saeedi and speak of a people who dwelled next to them called Antaya maybe there speaking of the Nara of eritrea who are socalled nubians.

In Greaco-Roman literature Troglodyte were all threw out the Eastern part of the River nile all the way to Eritrea. There are so much similarities Between the People of Southern Egypt all the way threw Sudan into NOrthern Eritrea

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
Damn I could murder you for chopping out
the hieroglyphics ruining an otherwise
good thing. Shrink 'em all down and try
and get Kush in there too will ya, please!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

"The Nubians"? I got mixed emotions. Today
there is a Nubia and all pictured but the
Irem were in that region. Thing is there
was no Nubian people back then. Maybe
better call 'em North Sudanese rather
than Nubians because these are 4 distinct
ethnies however indistinct they look here.
Nehesi is the only accurate term for them.

Could be as you say the other 3 were
tributory to Kush in some way. Then,
like the Egyptians the Nehhesyw (Nehesi)
were conservative in their dress. They
both preferred simple fine white linen
and leather. Nehesi were also more into
the chest sash, belt, and breech clout.
Egyptians wore 'em too sometimes. OK,
Egyptians were one nation and we got 4
Nehhesyw nationalities here. Still that's
that Nile Valley stylin' in all 5 of them.

Look at the Peninsulars. They all have the
same haberdash. A torso length garment, a
waist wrap, and a shaw. They're each just
different in so outrageously gaudy colors.

The Kefti and the Tjehhenu (Tehenu). Even
they're dressed somewhat similarly. "Knee
pants," maxi length upper garment sleeved
with breastbone knot for the Kefti, under
one shoulder knotted at the other shoulder
cloak for the Tehenu.


A Kush led confederacy raided Egypt 200 years earlier

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
total hypocrisy from cheerleader Djefruity and Sweentet the latter who has a thread called:

" Is Kmtian wavy and straight hair the only trait not shared with Ancient Nubians? "

^^^^ Not saying I don't use it but these term "nubian" is most sweeping of all, well beyond "Kushite". Some posters even complain racism when the word is used.


moe and curly over here [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ Wrong again, dumb trick! That's because when Swenet and I use the label 'Nubian' we mean it in its original context which is for peoples who live in the region south of Egypt. It's actually NOT racist unless someone uses the term for 'black' people as if the Egyptians were not black. Nubia is not a polity nor is it an ethnicity; it is a region pure and simple. And it is the best modern term we have for the Egyptian Nhsy since both words are used the same even though the etymology of 'Nubia' is still unclear as it is an exonym coined by the Romans though it may be based on the Egyptian word for gold 'nubt'.

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Why are you mentioning me as a justification for your acceptable naming regimen? I callem Nubians, just like I call Egyptians 'Egyptians' instead of using terms like 'kememou' or 'Kemitians' every time. One of the applications of the term 'Nubians' is as an umbrella term for the pharaonically acculturated blacks immediately South of Egypt, known to the Egyptians. 'Kush' isn't, which is why I called you out earlier for calling all black figures 'Kushite'.

Note that this naming practice of using exonyms rather than endonyms applies to almost all ancient cultures (in fact, I can't think of an exception); Nubians are no special snowflake in this sense, and so I don't take undue offense to this academic practice. And you don't have to either. Be your own (wo)man, stand your own ground, and know when you're justified in doing something without using other peoples' posts as a benchmark.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


^^^save this it's a custom piece
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

pharaonically acculturated

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dejhutie
LOL

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

pharaonically acculturated

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Dejhutie
LOL

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
dumb trick!

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
LOL Note the lyinass totally ignored my response in that the region of Nubia alone never mind including the Egyptian Eastern desert region is much more vast than that of the Fertile Crescent where all the Asiatic groups of the list live in. Not to mention that the Nubian region is far more ethnically diverse with both Nilo-Saharan speakers as well as Afrasian speakers and who knows what other unknown language phyla once existed in the area. Whereas the region of the Asiatic groups is predominantly Semitic with closer related ethnic groups. One could classify the Naharin as probable Urartian speaking but that's it. The lyinass conjecture that the Nubian groups are somehow less diverse and more or less "the same" is a fallacy often touted by Euronuts. That the Nehesi peoples are shown wearing similar garb maybe due to the fact that they are under the suzerainty of the Kushite Empire, but living under imperial rule of one group does NOT make the various peoples ethnically that one group.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

Are the Libyans Asiatic? In a sense no in a sense yes...

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quote:

---

The Libyan lives in Africa. Yet looking at him he resembles the Asiatics in these inner Tomb paintings Libyans look more like Asiatics than they do Egyptians. Why is this? Probably Phoenician ancestry. And below in the Book of gates Tomb of Rameses III as in original photos the Libyan is portrayed in some cases (not all) as even lighter skinned than the Syrian. Why this is I don't know but I have noticed it sometimes. In other cases they look darker. There are different types of Libyans also. Some are portrayed as yellowish others reddish brown and with sometimes sharp noses
The garb is similar I should have said hairstyle and beards if the Libyan is to be excluded.

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quote:

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>>>> the point is that each of the Asiatics are easily distinguishable from each other and the Libyan.
Stop nitpicking

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quote:

---

There is no distinguishing feature between the Nubians.
Why I don't know

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quote:

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A compilation of the glass and faience inlays depicting the traditional enemies of Ancient Egypt, found at/by the royal palace adjacent to the temple of Medinet Habu, from the reign of Ramesses III (1182-1151 B.C.) Representations are (in order) a pair of Nubians, a Philistine, an Amorite, a Syrian and a Hittite. On display at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston.

^^^ as here without glyphs you cannot tell if the two Nubians at left are specific ethnic groups

The last four all look different from each other

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:

quote:

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The peoples of the South are those of Kush. Irem, luntiu-seti, and Mentu-nu-setet. These four negro figures are given no individuality beyond that of varying grades of ugliness.

---

Seems like subjective bull shiiit to me

Nothing ugly ^^about this guy that they are similar in dress yes, they may even be some how related if not ethnically then perhaps politically to emergent Kush yes..then again I am asking can we not look into the possible connection between the Mentuhoteps and the Mentu-nu-setet given what we now know about their cousins the luntiu-seti.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

Damn I could murder you [lyinass] for chopping out
the hieroglyphics ruining an otherwise
good thing. Shrink 'em all down and try
and get Kush in there too will ya, please!

---

Distortion is the name of the name of the game when it comes to Euronut trolls like lyinass.

quote:

---

"The Nubians"? I got mixed emotions. Today
there is a Nubia and all pictured but the
Irem were in that region. Thing is there
was no Nubian people back then. Maybe
better call 'em North Sudanese rather
than Nubians because these are 4 distinct
ethnies however indistinct they look here.
Nehesi is the only accurate term for them.

---

quote:

---

Could be as you say the other 3 were
tributory to Kush in some way. Then,
like the Egyptians the Nehhesyw (Nehesi)
were conservative in their dress. They
both preferred simple fine white linen
and leather. Nehesi were also more into
the chest sash, belt, and breech clout.
Egyptians wore 'em too sometimes. OK,
Egyptians were one nation and we got 4
Nehhesyw nationalities here. Still that's
that Nile Valley stylin' in all 5 of them.

---

quote:

---

Look at the Peninsulars. They all have the
same haberdash. A torso length garment, a
waist wrap, and a shaw. They're each just
different in so outrageously gaudy colors.

---

quote:

---

The Kefti and the Tjehhenu (Tehenu). Even
they're dressed somewhat similarly. "Knee
pants," maxi length upper garment sleeved
with breastbone knot for the Kefti, under
one shoulder knotted at the other shoulder
cloak for the Tehenu.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:
feather headed Somali nomad

---

Silly lyinass. Somalis are not the only modren African people who adorn themselves with ostrich feathers.

Hamar of Ethiopia


Woodabe Fulani of Niger


And of course the ancient Egyptians and Libyans also wore feathers on their hair though the former (Egyptians) only did so on special occasions, particularly holy days.

One should also ask why the great god Amun of the Egyptians wore a shuty headdress with two tall erect ostrich feathers...



^ the same headdress worn by Kushite kings!!
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 



_________________________________________________^^^^^
Tukuler,
Djehootie is of the opinion that this Tjehenu as shown here is of a type completely indigenous to Africa. Do you agree with that?
There is evidence that Libyans may have been mingling with Sea People. Sometimes they look that way in the art.
Sometimes their skin in faince appears yellowish and in Book of Gates scenes. Djehootie insists they they were all more reddish brown like Egyptians. I say they are comprised of more than one type some as the Egyptians but here for instance in this Amenhotep III item they have a skin tone nearly the same as that of Asiatics.
Below from Rameses noticebly lighter than the Syrio-Palestinian


 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 


Like I thought the Mentu named Kings are connected to the Mentu Nu Setet for Min is the same as Mentu or Montu their ethnic name,in others words the Mentu-Setet were ruling Kemet in the 11th dynasty.

Mentuhotep: Montu is satisfied.
The Temple of Montu at Medamud was probably begun during the Old Kingdom era. During the New Kingdom, large and impressive temples to Montu were constructed in Armant. In fact, the Greek name of the city of Armant was Hermonthis, meaning the land of Montu. Earlier temples to Montu include one located adjacent to the Middle Kingdom fortress of Uronarti below the Second Cataract of the Nile, dating to the nineteenth century BCE. Montu had several consorts, including the goddess Tjenenyet, the goddess Iunit, and a female form of Ra, Raettawy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montu

What this is telling us or reinforcing for us because others have made the claim especially Wally that it was the Multi ethnic peoples of South sometimes with their own ethnic Gods/Goddess who made Kemet from the pre-dynastic era on wards,and they looked like the above bounded captive later separated by national border,some of these ethnic groups would eventually be absorbed under national flags/banner of either Kush or kemet often times both.. see Tukuler's post above about a Kush led invasion of Kemet,for the Kush were no trivial people.
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The deity Montu or Mentu is different from the deity Men/Min. Min is a god of the Eastern Desert whose original cult center was in Akhmim in central Egypt. Montu or Mentu was a hawk deity whose cult center was located in Erment which is located in Upper Egypt about a dozen miles south of Waset (Thebes). The name 'Mentu' literally means nomad or wanderer. Funny that you bolded the name of one of his consorts Iunit as if there is a connection to the Iunty. If anything the only connection is the etymology of their name. Khnemu, the patron god of Abutu (Elephantine) has his consort Satet and his daughter Anuket. Though they may share the same etymology for the names of some Nehesi, it is a stretch to say there is a direct connection or correlation.

To the lyinass, your pleas to Tukuler are useless. My statements on the Libyans are quite clear-- not only are the Tjehenu indigenous but they are actually DARKER in color than what is commonly seen. Even the painting of the Tjehenu bounded shows traces of darker paint. Dana has already pointed this out to you before and so have I in other threads on Libyans. If you want to repeat your lies, I suggest you repeat it in those threads.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Mn-ṯw-ḥtp
(Mentuhotep) II



mntw
(Mont, Monthu, Montju, or Menthu)

falcon-god of war.
 

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Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 
Djehuti

quote:

---

The deity Montu or Mentu is different from the deity Men/Min. Min is a god of the Eastern Desert whose original cult center was in Akhmim in central Egypt. Montu or Mentu was a hawk deity whose cult center was located in Erment which is located in Upper Egypt about a dozen miles south of Waset (Thebes). The name 'Mentu' literally means nomad or wanderer. Funny that you bolded the name of one of his consorts Iunit as if there is a connection to the Iunty. If anything the only connection is the etymology of their name. Khnemu, the patron god of Abutu (Elephantine) has his consort Satet and his daughter Anuket. Though they may share the same etymology for the names of some Nehesi, it is a stretch to say there is a direct connection or correlation.

---

quote:

---

In Ancient Egyptian religion, Montu was a falcon-god of war. Monthu's name, shown in Egyptian hieroglyphs to the right, is technically transcribed as mntw. Because of the difficulty in transcribing Egyptian, it is often realized as Mont, Monthu, Montju, or Menthu. Montu was an ancient god, his name meaning nomad, originally a manifestation of the scorching effect of the sun, Ra, and as such often appeared under the epithet Montu-Ra. The destructiveness of this characteristic led to him gaining characteristics of a warrior, and eventually becoming a war-god. Because of the association of raging bulls with strength and war, Montu was also said to manifest himself in a white bull with a black face, which was referred to as the Bakha. Egypt's greatest general-kings called themselves Mighty Bulls, the sons of Montu

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:




^ the same headdress worn by Kushite kings!! [/QB]

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look at the profile on this guy, just sayin
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brada-Anansi:
Djehuti

quote:

---

The deity Montu or Mentu is different from the deity Men/Min. Min is a god of the Eastern Desert whose original cult center was in Akhmim in central Egypt. Montu or Mentu was a hawk deity whose cult center was located in Erment which is located in Upper Egypt about a dozen miles south of Waset (Thebes). The name 'Mentu' literally means nomad or wanderer. Funny that you bolded the name of one of his consorts Iunit as if there is a connection to the Iunty. If anything the only connection is the etymology of their name. Khnemu, the patron god of Abutu (Elephantine) has his consort Satet and his daughter Anuket. Though they may share the same etymology for the names of some Nehesi, it is a stretch to say there is a direct connection or correlation.

---

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montu
Excuse the wiki source but I think you should examine the below I am seeing a pattern here the name Montu does mean Nomad but it also connects to the God directly so what better fit than a some times nomadic people warrior like

quote:

---

In Ancient Egyptian religion, Montu was a falcon-god of war. Monthu's name, shown in Egyptian hieroglyphs to the right, is technically transcribed as mntw. Because of the difficulty in transcribing Egyptian, it is often realized as Mont, Monthu, Montju, or Menthu. Montu was an ancient god, his name meaning nomad, originally a manifestation of the scorching effect of the sun, Ra, and as such often appeared under the epithet Montu-Ra. The destructiveness of this characteristic led to him gaining characteristics of a warrior, and eventually becoming a war-god. Because of the association of raging bulls with strength and war, Montu was also said to manifest himself in a white bull with a black face, which was referred to as the Bakha. Egypt's greatest general-kings called themselves Mighty Bulls, the sons of Montu

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:




^ the same headdress worn by Kushite kings!!

---

look at the profile on this guy, just sayin

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quote:

---

This head of the great state god of the New Kingdom, Amun (or Amun-Re), recognizable by his tall cap and double plumes, has a cool, somewhat uncompromising mien. The break at the right side indicates that the head belonged to a group statue, which may have included the king, most likely Tutankhamun.

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Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
 
Head of the god Amun, New Kingdom, post-Amarna period, Dynasty 18, reign of Tutankhamun, ca. 1336–1327 B.C.
Egypt
Granodiorite
H. 17 5/16 in. (44 cm), W. 15 1/16 in. (38.2 cm), D. 16 5/16 in. (41.5 cm)
Rogers Fund, 1907 (07.228.34)


The braided beard and the flat cap with remnants of double plumes identify this god as Amun. His small eyes are separated by a curved depression from the rounded brow ridge; his broad face shows full lips with sharp contours, and, from the side, a slightly drooping chin. These features closely parallel those of King Tutankhamun and mark the piece as his commission. The statue was certainly created for Karnak, Amun's great temple at Thebes, as part of Tutankhamun's restoration of the god's monuments that had been defaced or destroyed during the reign of Akhenaten. A number of sculptures depict Amun touching the crown of Tutankhamun, who stands or kneels before him. This head seems very large for such a composition, however; thus it is likely that the head originally belonged to a large freestanding or seated figure of the god.

The similarities between this piece and late Amarna art suggest that sculptors from Amarna were active in Thebes during Tutankhamun's reign. The combination of the lush physicality of the mouth with the distant, veiled gaze of the small eyes beneath shadowing brows creates a tension. These features—as in late Amarna art, and like similar tensions in the faces of late Middle Kingdom sculptures—were probably meant to convey a kind of interiority or reflectiveness.


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_07.228.34.jpg


http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_07.228.34_av1.jpg

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/hb/hb_07.228.34_av2.jpg
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ The headdress of Amun is called the shuti and most folks don't know it, but that is the exact type of 'crown' worn by Kushite kings.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:




^ the same headdress worn by Kushite kings!!

---

look at the profile on this guy, just sayin

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quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Damn I could murder you for chopping out
the hieroglyphics ruining an otherwise
good thing. Shrink 'em all down and try
and get Kush in there too will ya, please!

---

Sorry the glyphs are at an inconvenient location for cropping
________________________________________

---

Oho, so I come back to find you did it anyway
and in better format than what I did meanwhile.


 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:



look at the profile on this guy, just sayin

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I see the profile of the god Amun. Exactly WHAT are you saying??!
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


How useful can this be?

This assumes these various Nubians or people of the Southern lands, Sudan, Ethiopia, Lower Nubia, The Red Sea region,
all dressed exactly the same. Was this one big empire?
Or did the artist not know and make everybody a Kushite?
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
How useful are you?

Rehashing an issue already covered.

Go back and reread the thread.

Um, didn't we go through this already?
Isn't the real reason you made your post is
because of your current tirade against me?
U r so transparent and poisonous to any
Afrikan who thinks with their own mind.

Anything from an idependent thinking Afrikan mind
is useless to you, meanwhile thoughtful others not
on a mission to destroy ES are thankful for the
clarifications and advance in the knowledge.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
You are in a state of paranoia now
I wasn't thinking of you in my last post.
I was looking back on my old post, the work I did putting together a nice graphic and carefully not cropping out the glyphs.
The looking over it just now I realized that whatever Egyptian artist who did the original painting seemed to make no distinction at all in the appearance of each of these ethnic groups.
The names and places are useful but the illustrations not, they seem to have all of these groups a steerotyped as looking like Kushites. Unless the all did have the exact same garb
I've got a life to live I'm not thinking about you.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You're funny.

You steal my work and call it

"the work I did putting together a nice graphic"
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Describe precisely the work you did and why it's yours
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Do it yourself.

I don't have to defend myself against you.

You lack credibility.

Anyone reviewing the thread can see
where you got the images, how you
fought against the precise hieroglyphic
terms even chopping mdw ntjr in your
original pastiche telling me they are
unimportant, and where you learned
which moderns or modern locations
relate to the AEL terms.

You must think people have no memory or
you're just having one on the newbies who
wouldn't know you've never authored any
originality.

I thanked you for whatever tweaking you
did to make it look prettier but if it's
anyone's then it's my intellectual property.

For those not in the know, or new to the
forum, this thread's not the only one to
go into the issue of this particular rendition
of the Nine Bows from which I reduced the
four Nehesi reps under question.


Go on, keep trying to re-invent yourself.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
it's my intellectual property.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


Do you even take yourself seriously?

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