quote:The first advanced Bronze Age civilization of Europe was established by the Minoans about 5,000 years before present. Since Sir Arthur Evans exposed the Minoan civic centre of Knossos, archaeologists have speculated on the origin of the founders of the civilization. Evans proposed a North African origin; Cycladic, Balkan, Anatolian and Middle Eastern origins have also been proposed. Here we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by analysing mitochondrial DNA from Minoan osseous remains from a cave ossuary in the Lassithi plateau of Crete dated 4,400–3,700 years before present. Shared haplotypes, principal component and pairwise distance analyses refute the Evans North African hypothesis. Minoans show the strongest relationships with Neolithic and modern European populations and with the modern inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau. Our data are compatible with the hypothesis of an autochthonous development of the Minoan civilization by the descendants of the Neolithic settlers of the island.
These results might not go over very well with some posters here, especially since African populations like the Egyptians were found to have the most distant genetic relationship from the Minoans.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Don't know to what extent Keith was generalizing his observations of a Northern African origin to the Cretan population in general (my understanding has always been that he didn't), but it seems unreasonable to test skeletal remains other than the ones Keith has studied and come to the conclusion that he has been refuted. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised at all if aDNA from certain Natufian skeletal remains would show little relationship with Northeast Africans. This however, would not necessarily refute Brace's and Keith's observations about the African affinity of certain Natufian skeletal remains.
Oh, great find and thanks for posting.
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
That's a good point you bring up about the Minoan population possibly having greater diversity than this study would imply by sampling only one portion of that population, but I forgot who Keith was.
Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
I dont think many people here believe the Minoans to be anything but a Southern European civilization with ties to Egypt via trade and possibly some Egyptian and Kushite immigrants, at least the serious posters.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
on it
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
When reading articles such as this one the first thing I check out is who are the authors/researchers. Who is the lead ie big dog. This paper is written by a bunch of “nobodies” and no acclaimed geneticist has put his/her name on it. BUT!!! ……Unlike Euros I do not focus on the personalities but I look at the data. So let’s look at the data.
In short …there is no new disclosure here. What I have noticed is there is a pattern in the use of the word “affinity’ etc. Many here and on the race forums hear ……or see “affinity” and their knee jerk reaction is “origin’. The issue is really “origin” and not “affinity” of peoples during Neolithic times to the colonial times. Isn’t it? Good, we got that out of the way. Case in point is the Henn thread. Some read affinity and hear North Africans are migrants from Arabia. That is NOT what Henn reported. Similarly that study on Etruscan DNA by Macualay et al.concluding the Etruscans were from Anatolia. 1 year later Babujani/Bramanti et al reassessed the same data and showed a mis-interpretation and that ancient Anatolians AND the Etruscans had the similar ancestral population, ie peoples further SOUTH!!!, they are not sure where(wink wink). That is where the use of HAPMAP will come in useful. I got to get on it. Anyways , Anatolians are NOT the ancestral population of the Etruscans.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Where I am going with this? Play on words, affinity, are not uncommon. Another one we recently discussed was bronze age Sardinians. Sage and Lioness will remember this one. The author remarked on the close affinity between bronze age Sardinians and Modern Europeans. However, later added Sardinians originated from Iberia. Again from the south. And glossed over North Africa is south and that the ancient Sardinians and North Africans share 3 unique haplotypes NOT found in modern Europeans. (One) of these unique haplotype were found in ancient Iberians also. They also included North Africans as Euroepans to skew that chart towards Europe. The logical conclusion is …. North Africa is the source population of BOTH these indigenous Sardinians and Iberians population and not mainland Europe. Mainland Europe is the recipient of African genes and that explains some affinity seen.
Now on to the article.
I have to look at the supplementals but the main article has the same old theme. Affinity to modern Euroepans…yes…but is mainland Europe the source?…no!!. They clearly state that!!!. Most probable source is Sardinia followed by Iberia. Here we go again. He! He!. They just won’t give up!!
North Africa is in play but they did not state what the similar haplotypes shared between the North Africans and ancient Cretians. That will answer the question of origin..
What do you think Lioness? Evans got it right Cretians are from the south ie North Africa.
There is one thing that has me confused. It is creeping into many of the recent articles. It seems like the trend has shifted the Neolithic origin in Europe from the Levant to speculating it originated in Iberia. This article states that Iberia was the source of these Neolithic peoples that migrated to Crete. That recent thread that Mike started on Europeans also speculated on the something similar. They speculated that Modern Europeans (female) originated from Iberia and spread throughout Europe at about 2000BC replacing older European populations. I am happy to see they are giving up on the old refugia theory from last ice age. Also changing their origin from the Levant or Middle East. But humans did not magically appear in Iberia.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am waiting on one of these renowned geneticist to develop the guts and report on the resolution of MtDNA hg-H between Iberia and North Africa. I believe Wells(Spencer) and his crew already showed the age of hg-H is about the same, with North Africa having a slight edge(posted already here or ESR). Proper resolution will show which is older. Many don’t want to touch that one else the walls may come crumbling down.
Hell! May be they will eventually. After all they are now in Iberia. Next stop North Africa. One step at a time. That takes care of the females. Now where did the European male come from?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
There is one thing that has me confused. It is creeping into many of the recent articles. It seems like the trend has shifted the Neolithic origin in Europe from the Levant to speculating it originated in Iberia. This article states that Iberia was the source of these Neolithic peoples that migrated to Crete. That recent thread that Mike started on Europeans also speculated on the something similar. They speculated that Modern Europeans (female) originated from Iberia and spread throughout Europe at about 2000BC replacing older European populations. I am happy to see they are giving up on the old refugia theory from last ice age. Also changing their origin from the Levant or Middle East. But humans did not magically appear in Iberia.
In fact it greatly supports the refugia theory.
the Franco-Cantabrian region (in northern Iberia) is one of the Refgia
quote:Originally posted by Mikey111: NEWSSTORY:
Ancient Europeans mysteriously vanished 4,500 years ago Published April 23, 2013 - LiveScience
The genetic lineage of Europe mysteriously transformed about 4,500 years ago, new research suggests.
The new study also confirms that people sweeping out from Turkey colonized Europe, likely as a part of the agricultural revolution, reaching Germany about 7,500 years ago.
the earliest farmers in Germany were closely related to Near Eastern and Anatolian people
purple refugia area on the map. people of Black Sea Turkish/Italy region etc then go into Central Europe 7,500 years ago. Where were they from before that? The Near East aka Levant (the group you hate) -and they repalced earlier Paleolithic hunter gatherers prior to the time periods discussed in these articles
quote:Originally posted by Mikey111: NEWSSTORY:
Ancient Europeans mysteriously vanished 4,500 years ago Published April 23, 2013 - LiveScience
then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago,
Instead, about 5,000 to 4,000 years ago, the genetic profile changes radically, suggesting that some mysterious event led to a huge turnover in the population that made up Europe. The Bell Beaker culture, which emerged from the Iberian Peninsula around 2800 B.C., may have played a role in this genetic turnover. The culture, which may have been responsible for erecting some of the megaliths at Stonehenge, is named for its distinctive bell-shaped ceramics and its rich grave goods. The culture also played a role in the expansion of Celtic languages along the coast.
"We have established that the genetic foundations for modern Europe were only established in the Mid-Neolithic, after this major genetic transition around 4,000 years ago,"
the Iberian people from the red area refugia on the map ^^^^
So the migrants who came from Anatolia refugia who originally came from the Levant went into Central Europe 7500 years ago
were replaced 3500 year laters by Iberian refugia-ins and these according to you, very black peoples, were the ancestors of modern Europeans
yes it dovetails perfectly with your concepts
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^It makes us wonder what actually happend?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
See my movie discussing the African heritage of Socretes,Homer and the heroes of Homer's work.
Clyde when did the first whites arrive in Greece and where did they come from?
when I say "white" I'm including these types:
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^ your picture spam will not do it, more is needed.
Whe need the microscope!!!
Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction.
Phylogeny of Y-chromosome haplogroups and their frequencies (%) in the examined populations. Nomenclature and haplogroup labelling according to the Y Chromosome Consortium (http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/) updated according to Karafet et al. 32 *Paragroups: Y chromosomes not defined by any phylogenetic downstream-reported and -examined mutation. aIntrapopulation haplogroup diversity. The terminal markers of haplogroups E-V12 and E-V13 (V32 and V27, respectively) were typed but did not show any variation.
Frequency (left) and variance (right) distributions of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, observed in this survey. Frequency data are reported in Figure 2, variance data are relative to the examined microsatellite reported in the Supplementary Table S2. We acknowledge that interpolated spatial frequency surfaces should be viewed with caution because of sample size.41 Data from this study. Frequency and variance values were assigned to sample-collection places (dots). Population samples (geographically close) with less than five observations were pooled and the corresponding variance assigned to a middle position of the pooled sample locations. +Data from the literature.13, 23, 27, 28, 36, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde when did the first whites arrive in Greece and where did they come from?
when I say "white" I'm including these types:
BJMG 11/2 (2008) 25-30 10.2478/v10034-008-0030-0
Litvinov S* et al.
Although it was not possible to determine a contribution of Neolithic farmers to the Caucasian gene pool, the principal component analysis showed clear differences between these populations and those of Europe, Siberia and Asia. No evidence of correlation between genetic and linguistic data in our populations was disclosed.
While an Alu insertion marker does not have enough power of resolution to assess the contribution of the influence of Neolithic farmers on the Caucasian gene pool, it clearly separates both South and North Caucasus populations (except Karanogays) from Siberian and Asian populations.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde when did the first whites arrive in Greece and where did they come from?
when I say "white" I'm including these types:
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Just read some of the supplementals? Are these people for real. Ha! Ha! Ha! Aha! Aha! Aha! Are they kidding me?! Clyde is correct...
Lioness?? Here are more that I like. He! He!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
It is the same result as the Sardinia bronze age study. GTFOH!!!
Unique haplotypes found only among ancient Crete and North Africans. Not found in mainland Europe. Same as Bronze age Sardinians.
HAAAAA! HAAAA!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Quote:
From Supplemental Figure S2
Α, haplotype 1 shared with 63 populations Ε, haplotype 16 shared with 6 populations; F, haplotype 17 shared with 4 populations; G, haplotype 18 shared with 13 populations: [b]Η, haplotype 20 shared with 1 population[b/]
To those who don’t get it. This is really fascinating. This is exactly the same pattern we see when DNA analysis was performed on Bronze Age Sardinians. Sardinia, like, Crete is off the coast of North Africa which is currently claimed by Europe. They think since they colonized African land they can claim the history and achievements. How pathetic and delusional.
Modern politics and geographical boundaries do not apply to pre-historical or historical times.
The ancient genetic data being released is showing that bronze age Sardinians, Ancient Crete and the Etruscans are peoples from the African continent just as Evans, Smith and Sergi suggested analyzing cranial, archeological and cultural data.
On a side note – anyone notice the high haplogroup variability in the samples? It is as if all modern haplogroups currently found in Europe is present. That is highly unusual for aDNA. Especially that far south. There is even a R0, HV and T3 in there and only one 2 Us. Huh?? Stay tuned. Babujani and his crew may reassess the data. Don’t be surprised if you here about falsified data one year from now. After all this was study was done by Greeks!!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Lioness…what do you think?…my IQ at work.
8 -0 !!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
A few weeks ago I was asking about “porotic hyperostosis”….. . While I was researching ancient peoples of Crete and Sardinia I came to find out there was racism even in deseases
eg quote:
From: Thalassaemia Major in the Sudan(1965)
This case drew attention to the existence of thalassaemia in Sudanese people. This paper deals with a case of thalassaemia major in a Sudanese family that is in no way related to people of Mediterranean stock. ……..suggesting that thalassaemia major occurs more often in the Sudan than has been previously supposed.
From the threads opening Article citation #30.
30. Hughey, J. R., Du, M., Li, Q., Michalodimitrakis, M. & Stamatoyannopoulos, G. A search for b thalassemia mutations in 4000 year old ancient DNAs of Minoan Cretans. Blood Cell Mol. Dis. 48, 7–10 (2012).
========
Where am I goimng with this? As usual Europeans are way ahead of us. I thought I was onto something but as you can see they are on it already ..searching for that link.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I know I said I was going to ignore the personalities but…I couldn’t resist. Are these these the same guys that wrote that article? They are desperately try to obtain data in support of their delusion that THEY are the original Greeks. Ho! Ho!
=====================
From:
30. Hughey, J. R., Du, M., Li, Q., Michalodimitrakis, M. & Stamatoyannopoulos, G.
A search for b thalassemia mutations in 4000 year old ancient DNAs of Minoan Cretans. Blood Cell Mol. Dis. 48, 7–10 (2012)
Ancient DNA methodologies can be applied in the investigation of the genetics of extinct populations. A search for beta thalassemia mutations was performed on 49 Minoan individuals from the Bronze Age who were living in the island of Crete approximately 4,000 Years Before Present (YBP). Standard precautionary measures were employed in the laboratory to ensure authenticity of the DNA extracted from the ancient bones, resulting in the successful analysis of DNA of 24 Minoans. DNA sequencing focused on the Intervening Sequence 1 (IVS-1) of the beta globin gene and its splicing junctions. 63% of the thalassemia mutations observed among modern Cretans reside in beta IVS -1. None of the Minoan individuals carried one of the IVS-1 mutations known to cause beta thalassemia; however, only one was expected to be observed if the average frequency of beta thalassemia heterozygotes in the Minoan population was the same with that of modern day Cretans (7.6 %). One individual contained a C to G substitution in position 91 of the IVS-1, located 40 bp 5′ to the intron 1/exon 2 junction. Functional studies indicated that the mutation did not affect mRNA splicing or stability, and most likely represented an innocent single nucleotide polymorphism.
========================
I was researching to b thalassemia mutations to corroborate North African ancestry of Crete, but this crew is already on it. And the result is……no!!!. Extant populations of Crete do not share the same mutation of b thalassemia mutations compared to populations 4000ya. Not a surprise. Ha! Ha! This crew failed through b thalassemia, now they tried through haplotypes and failed there also. What is next?
Now the question is …is it the Sudanese type?. We may never know……….
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Just read some of the supplementals? Are these people for real. Ha! Ha! Ha! Aha! Aha! Aha! Are they kidding me?! Clyde is correct...
Your modus operandi is always the same. The first thing you try to impress people with is that you looked at the suppliments as if that is a conspiratorial hiding place. Then you chop out and circle anything African, disregarding the context and this you use to assume African origin of any topic being discussed. (the C & C method, Chop and Circle)
the supplimental data has charts A - H You cut out A - D and circle E - H thinking it's in Africa not realizing in these hard to read maps that you actually circled the Levant, lol
quote: It is likely, says Stamatoyannopoulos, that the Minoans descended from Neolithic populations that migrated to Europe from the Middle East and Turkey.
quote: The Minoan mtDNA haplotypes resembled those of the European populations (Figs 2b, 3a and 4; Supplementary Figs S1–S3). The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. The greatest percentage of shared Minoan haplotypes was observed with European populations, particularly with individuals from Northern and Western Europe (26.98% and 29.28%, respectively) (Figs 2, 3, 4; Supplementary Table S7). Notably, in Fig. 4, a gradient can be observed, with the lowest affinity for Minoans found with Northern African populations and the percentage of haplotype sharing increasing as we move through the Middle East, Caucasus and the Mediterranean islands, southern Europe and mainland Europe (Fig. 4a). Of notice also is the high percentage of haplotype sharing with Bronze Age (Fig. 4c) and Neolithic (Fig. 4d) European populations.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Sensation al claims?…..more feel good headliners to give Europeans that warm and fuzzy feeling that Europe belongs to them and they are somehow part of those great ancient civilization. Talk about the need to be pampered and psychosis. That is what a deficiency of melanin does.
========
By George Stamatoyannopoulos et al, the Greek crew.
Introduction Since its inception in 1984 the use of ancient DNA in addressing biological questions has led to the genetic characterization of species and populations from all major biological lineages [1,2]. The discipline, molecular archaeology, did not however immediately flourish without debate. Its inauguration was led by a series of sensational claims, many of which were invalidated [3]. Despite its dubious beginning, the discipline now operates under strict
Conclusion: Our results do not allow us to draw any definite conclusions about the frequency of β thalassemias in the Minoans. ( Because we did not find any.)
On the average, 64% of the β thalassemias in the Greek population are due to mutations at IVS-1 [20].
In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21].
Presumably high frequencies of IVS-1 mutations were characteristic of the ancient Mediterranean and Anatolian populations.
The average frequency of heterozygous β thalassemia in the modern Cretan population is 7.6% [29]
If that were also the frequency among the Minoans, we would expect to find one IVS-1 mutation among the 24 Minoans we sequenced, and we found none. (SAD FACE).
@TP. (rhetorical) Can you use HAPMAP to isolate this..” In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21]”?
It seems like the modern Creteans are dis-similar to mainland Greeks. They are more admixed. Modern Greeks carry the IVS-1 but Creteans carry also IVS-6, IVS-110 and IVS-116.
I really need to focus in learning to use HAPMAP.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote: Originally posted by lioness: circle E - H thinking it's in Africa not realizing in these hard to read maps that you actually circled the Levant, lol
#facts
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
more acturately it's merely a circle xyyman drew around Crete, I don't see what relevance it has, explain it to me
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sensation al claims?…..more feel good headliners to give Europeans that warm and fuzzy feeling that Europe belongs to them and they are somehow part of those great ancient civilization. Talk about the need to be pampered and psychosis. That is what a deficiency of melanin does.
========
By George Stamatoyannopoulos et al, the Greek crew.
Introduction Since its inception in 1984 the use of ancient DNA in addressing biological questions has led to the genetic characterization of species and populations from all major biological lineages [1,2]. The discipline, molecular archaeology, did not however immediately flourish without debate. Its inauguration was led by a series of sensational claims, many of which were invalidated [3]. Despite its dubious beginning, the discipline now operates under strict
Conclusion: Our results do not allow us to draw any definite conclusions about the frequency of β thalassemias in the Minoans. ( Because we did not find any.)
On the average, 64% of the β thalassemias in the Greek population are due to mutations at IVS-1 [20].
In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21].
Presumably high frequencies of IVS-1 mutations were characteristic of the ancient Mediterranean and Anatolian populations.
The average frequency of heterozygous β thalassemia in the modern Cretan population is 7.6% [29]
If that were also the frequency among the Minoans, we would expect to find one IVS-1 mutation among the 24 Minoans we sequenced, and we found none. (SAD FACE).
@TP. (rhetorical) Can you use HAPMAP to isolate this..” In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21]”?
It seems like the modern Creteans are dis-similar to mainland Greeks. They are more admixed. Modern Greeks carry the IVS-1 but Creteans carry also IVS-6, IVS-110 and IVS-116.
I really need to focus in learning to use HAPMAP.
HapMap's search system isn't very "flexible".
I don't think it's possible in HapMap, but try some others. They do make use of the HapMap data.,
I know you are mathematically challenged. But also geographically challenged? The maps are NOT hard to read. I circled Libya, Egypt and Crete. Ahem. They are NOT in the Levant. I know you believe Egypt is in the Levant. Wake up call...both Egypt and Libya is in Africa.
9-0 Lioness...At this rate..you may fall in the idiot category.
You are missing the point buddy...Evans got it right. Crete is of North African origin. See the "exclusive" haplotype shared between ancient Crete and modern North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: more acturately it's merely a circle xyyman drew around Crete, I don't see what relevance it has, explain it to me
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@TP. Thanks. I need to spend some time on this. I notice Africa has no Mediterranean coastline. (sic). God damn! these people make it really difficult.
Now I have to read to get at..what countries are "Africa" and what are "Mediterranean"
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
In all haste I hadn't even noticed that Lioness said 'Levant' instead of 'Crete'.
No one has any valuable perspectives to add..?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
The entertainment is in the other thread started by Vwwvv
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
Let me try: how come they're doing mtDNA for this? Why not aDNA?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I know you are mathematically challenged. But also geographically challenged? The maps are NOT hard to read. I circled Libya, Egypt and Crete. Ahem. They are NOT in the Levant. I know you believe Egypt is in the Levant. Wake up call...both Egypt and Libya is in Africa.
9-0 Lioness...At this rate..you may fall in the idiot category.
You are missing the point buddy...Evans got it right. Crete is of North African origin. See the "exclusive" haplotype shared between ancient Crete and modern North Africans.
From Supplemental Figure S2
Α, haplotype 1 shared with 63 populations Ε, haplotype 16 shared with 6 populations; F, haplotype 17 shared with 4 populations; G, haplotype 18 shared with 13 populations: Η, haplotype 20 shared with 1 population
The fact is this article says ancient Minoans were genetically similar to present day people of Crete, it is something you will have to get over. Similarly Otzi man is most similar to contemporary Sardinians rather than North Africans
the shared lineages are projections eminating from the island of Crete. That is what these charts are showing, the center point of the Minoan linegaes Minoa, Crete. The darkest blue indicates this. As expected neighboring areas share affinity in diminishing frequency as you get further away from the center
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As for the fisherman, his skin color may be similar, but the concave facial profile of that fisherman is typically European, and has nothing to do with how Egyptians depicted themselves, whatsoever.
I already made my views known regarding the Ancient Med convention of using excessively dark colors in the absence of assimilation of black skinned groups. Either the man was painted using the Egyptian convention, or they tried to depict the idea of a suntanned person when they painted the figure, or they used the color because he was imagined to have had African ancestry.
Either way, his facial features are typical of Europeans, not Africans,
_________________Minoan fresco, fisherman
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
who was the most well known proponent of a Minoans were African theory?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Ignoring the other non-starter above...
I hope you are not serious T-Rex. You have been on this forum how long and you ask a question like this.
They did both!! They tested aDNA on the MtDNA region of the genome.
aDNA only means ancient DNA. So they tested DNA on ancient remains. The region on the genome is the MtDNA. That is what hg-H, T etc means.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: Let me try: how come they're doing mtDNA for this? Why not aDNA?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As for the fisherman, his skin color may be similar, but the concave facial profile of that fisherman is typically European, and has nothing to do with how Egyptians depicted themselves, whatsoever.
I already made my views known regarding the Ancient Med convention of using excessively dark colors in the absence of assimilation of black skinned groups. Either the man was painted using the Egyptian convention, or they tried to depict the idea of a suntanned person when they painted the figure, or they used the color because he was imagined to have had African ancestry.
Either way, his facial features are typical of Europeans, not Africans,
_________________Minoan fresco, fisherman
I can play your game,
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Here is one. Maybe some of the more astute posters can weigh in on this one. When I first read this, I misunderstood what I read. If Lioness had caught on I would have been 9-1, but since he did not. I am still 9-0.
Are Caucasoid from Sub-Saharan Africa?
=========
From Academia.edu – On the Garamantes of the Fezzan Libya Page 401 to 406
Quote:
of cribra orbitalia in 37.5 percent of the sample, while porotic hyperostosis was only found in the sub-adult portion of the population. Evidence of premortem trauma was observed indirectly as exostoses associated with some traumatic event in 19.44 percent of the sample. It should be mentioned that healed fractures were also traced on two females (mid and old adults, respectively). Two cases of trephination with evidence of healing were also found, one of those in an adult male skull dating to the Classic Garamantian period (Figs 7.2 and 7.5). Among the sub-adults, the only pathologies observed were caries, porotic hyperostosis and cribra orbitalia. However, the sub-adult sample size is too small for any meaningful percentages to be presented.
Finally, special mention should be made of the evidence of trephination found, which, together with the treatment of the major head wound of one of the individuals in the Royal Cemetery, indicates that the Garamantes were aware of and practiced invasive medical procedures
The North African populations used for the assessment of the Garamantian biological affinities were all approximately contemporary to the Garamantes. The only exception is the Sub-Saharan samples, which are Neolithic, thus, predating the Garamantian civilization, although no further specification of their date is available. A list of the populations used
From Figure 7.22, it can be seen that the Garamantes cluster most closely to the SubSaharan Africans and secondarily to the Roman Egyptians from Alexandria and the Nubians from Soleb. Populations from Algeria and Tunisia are somewhat more distant but still rather close to the Garamantes. The most distant groups appear to be the Sudanese Jebel Moya and Kerma, as well as those from Gizeh.
Finally, as far as the biological affinities of the Garamantes are concerned, they appear to cluster most closely to the Sub-Saharan Africans and the Roman Egyptians and secondarily to populations from A)geria and Tunisia. Althougb Nubians from Soleb seemed to be close to the Garamaotes on the cladogram, their statistical di fference as well as the di stance between the Garamantes and the other Sudanese groups was significant. Because of the relatively small size of the sample, more detailed
My takeaway from this article:
The Garamantes looked like pre-historical “Sub-Saharan Africans”. The Romans(Egyptians) also looked like pre-historical “Sub-Saharan Africans” Porotic hyperostosis keeps popping up in Africa, Crete and Greece. Why? Pre-historical Sub-Saharan Africans looking people were practicing brain surgery Charlton Heston, Elizabeth Taylor, Tony Curtis(?) needs o step aside. Wesley Snipes, Omar Epps and Gabrielle Union are a better representation of peoples of those times. “Anthony and Cleopatra, Ben Hur”. Are all those statues we see on TV of Romans fake? Jari? “Fear this”
Get my point SORa. Don’t believe everything you see on TV or even what you read. Many of us cannot read Hieroglyphics, Greek, Arabic, Persian etc. We rely on English translation or interpretation. And Frankly Europeans lie and falsify information to benefit them. How long have they done it? Always start with the actual physical examination of the people. The hard evidence, lastly, THEN go to the books. That said I respect what you and your peers post here based upon what you read.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Don’t believe me? Anyone has the picture of the “Captain of the blacks” from Crete.
The before and after shots?
Also the “Bull rider”
And “the three ladies”.
I am on the road now so I can them dig it out.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Swenet, you messed up. Troll found a Minoan
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Don’t believe me? Anyone has the picture of the “Captain of the blacks” from Crete.
The before and after shots?
Also the “Bull rider”
And “the three ladies”.
I am on the road now so I can them dig it out.
It is ironic, given his modern reputation as an out-and-out racist, that one of the most tendentious restorations of a Minoan fresco, carried out under his direction and partly to his bidding, actually introduced a pair of black African soldiers as major figures. Known by Evans as the "Captain of the Blacks" fresco, it was restored to show a Minoan warrior running ahead of two black comrades or subordinates. In fact the only evidence for the black soldiers is a handful of fragments of black paint, which need not have been from human figures at all. Knossos and the Prophets of Modernism by Cathy Gere, University of Chicago Press
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Those look like Nordic migrants to me. Wink wink.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Funny. Got to admit TP you walked into that one. But I understand your point. Pic wars with Lioness.....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Swenet, you messed up. Troll found a Minoan
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Swenet, you messed up. Troll found a Minoan [/qb]
That's just a person with a prominent chin, not a concave facial profile:
Concave:
quote:Having an outline or surface that curves inward like the interior of a circle or sphere.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Don’t believe me? Anyone has the picture of the “Captain of the blacks” from Crete.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Swenet, you messed up. Troll found a Minoan
Your game is fun,
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
looks like berbers to me. With incoming white migrants
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Read!!! Note. It says "Otherssss....clearly negroid"
Crete is also an extension of North Africa. SSA(dark) and Saharans(red). Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
enough of this...I don't get involved in picture wars..
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Interesting Heidelberg Uni page. I copied it, if you don't mind.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @TP. Thanks. I need to spend some time on this. I notice Africa has no Mediterranean coastline. (sic). God damn! these people make it really difficult.
Now I have to read to get at..what countries are "Africa" and what are "Mediterranean"
Yeah, I know it's hilarious. And mysterious.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
In keeping with C&C...(He! He!)
and in closing... Are Crete Black Saharans?...yes. Spot the fake...
Fake white Ladies
The Black masses....
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
According to Dhoxie...this is not "her people".
According to Jari, he has a fear these people are NOT Black. They are white
I am confused. I see a few white migrants in the pictures. But I guess everyone is white to him. Son of Ra would agree.
As I told the clown. It does matter what you believe it is what you can prove.
Black guy with an afro..no?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: enough of this...I don't get involved in picture wars..
.
____________BLACK MINOA___________
xyyman, you finally got it right, Swenet's in denial
.
.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I have about 2 dozen of these Black Cretans pieces....But I am only imagining these people are as black as AEians
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You know this is most likely a fake? Don't you? I am getting good at this now. Want me to investigate?
This is suppose to be you and a few others forte. If I keep this up you....
I can spot them easily now.
Anyone has the original??
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: enough of this...I don't get involved in picture wars..
.
____________BLACK MINOA___________
xyyman, you finally got it right, Swenet's in denial
.
.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I believe the head is fake. Where is the oiginal?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
To the newbies. Evans and his buddies were accused of fraud and he found peices of art and basically reconstructed the peices to "his likeness"
eg this was found in pieces but was recreated by Evans. See the 10 or so original pieces embedded within the artwork
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
How many fake Roman and Greek statues and coins are in display in museum?. I have to travel to India, Iran and China and compare their Graeco Roman statues and coins to the Euro one.
I learn today that the word Nero mean black in Italian.I learn that from a black printer cartridge with the word black in different languages.Nero was also the name of a Roman Emperor.Maybe he was call Nero because he was very black.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I believe the head is fake. Where is the oiginal?
Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, c. 1650 B.C. Approx. 53" high. National Archeological Museum, Athens.
why do you think the head is fake?
Troll already proved this is African
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
The piece is intact and complete. The artwork I posted clearly shows the original vs the reconstructed sections.
If you don't know this is fake then...
and I have a lot more.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The piece is intact and complete. The artwork I posted clearly shows the original vs the reconstructed sections.
If you don't know this is fake then...
and I have a lot more.
this is a typical tactic.
If the artifact is in good condition but somebody doesn't like it they formulate a ridiculous theory that all authentic artifacts must have been fragmented and damaged. It's nonsense. Then when an intact artifatct is shown that is to their liking all of the sudden they forget all about this phoney balony concept
enough amateurism
Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
For my part, I would interpret the Minoan paintings as mimicry of Egyptian artistic conventions. That still attests to cultural influences from Africa, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Minoans as a people were dark-skinned like the Egyptians.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^Ostrich
Can you(rhetorical) pick out the black people here..Notice the reconstructed sections/people are light brown.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As anyone can see. There are a few white people but obviously the indigenous people are black. Enough of the pic spamming. Let me stop....
As I said. Southern Europe is an extension of Africa.
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
With all this talk about real and fake artefacts, eyeballing artworks for ethnic origins etc, you'd almost forget about the aDNA report cited in the OP. But then again, throwing dust in your eyes might just be what these proponents are going for. Last time I checked, artefacts don't trump aDNA.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: For my part, I would interpret the Minoan paintings as mimicry of Egyptian artistic conventions. That still attests to cultural influences from Africa, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Minoans as a people were dark-skinned like the Egyptians.
Indeed. The dark colors (reddish-brown) in Minoan artwork usually aren't accompanied by African physiognomies and body forms as in the case with most Ancient Egyptian mural depictions. They seem to just depict themselves in the Egyptian color convention, but with their own ethnic features. I think the aDNA results underline that.
They were in contact with New Kingdom Egypt, as evinced by the fact that one of the earliest Minoan style frescoes were excavated not in Crete, but in an Egyptian palace at Tel-el-daba (Avaris) and I believe also in the Levant.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Welcome back aboard...the sanity ship.
I can be wrong but...I don't see it. The aDNA and "pic spam" correlate. Ancient Creteans and North Africa share a unique genetic history.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Ha! Ha! Some of your are really hilarious... The issue is, are indigenous Creteans from the European mainland? Not if the Creteans and AEians have the same shade of blackness.
Now, which is it? I some resemblance to the Swedes.(wink wink).
The Cretes had been migrating from North Africa for thousand of years.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^Ostrich
Can you(rhetorical) pick out the black people here..Notice the reconstructed sections/people are light brown.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I believe the head is fake. Where is the oiginal?
I assume you mean this one?
4-8 Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, Cyclades, ca. 1650 B.C. APPROX. 4' 5" HIGH. NATIONAL ARCHEOLOGICAL MUSEUM, ATHENS.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Thanks TP!
As I told Lioness. His painting was a fake. Irregardsless skin tone is brown. The question is why are fake paintings being displayed in museums all over Europe?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I believe the head is fake. Where is the oiginal?
Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, c. 1650 B.C. Approx. 53" high. National Archeological Museum, Athens.
why do you think the head is fake?
Troll already proved this is African
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
4-8 Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, Cyclades, ca. 1650 B.C. APPROX. 4' 5" HIGH. NATIONAL ARCHEOLOGICAL MUSEUM, ATHENS. [/QB]
.
_____________ BLACK SAHARAN OF MINOA______________
well I'm glad Troll's research finally resolved this.
xyyman wins again
_________________________________________________
however on further inspection I question the above. This version is from this Friends Academy link:
The civilization of ancient Crete By R F. Willetts
Problem solved, TWO AUTHENTIC BLACK MINOANS. xyyman back to drawing board
ADDITIONAL BLACK SAHARAN OF MINOA______________ Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
@ the excuses!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ it's called doing more thorough research, look into it
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
This rendering has him look even more cold adapted than the other one (relatively tall trunk with short limbs). Ties right into the observation I made earlier that the dark colouration of their skin is often not accompanied with African physiognomies and body forms.
When you put this together with the fact that the Egyptian dark skinned Keftiu just don't seem to be Cretans, the whole 'black Minoan' thing just seems to disintegrate even further. I'm still open to the idea of black Cretans if Keith's data still holds up, but the Minoans were an ethnic group, and so, these blacks would have been distinct from the Minoans, who, in all likelihood (judging by their genetic affinities pre-hellenic European farmers) would have been a branch of the Pelasgians.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^what about the robust African?
Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
Robust is independent of tropically or cold adapted. One can be robust and have either one of those bodyplans.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Something I find odd here.
The description seems clearly describing the above two fisherman frescos at the proper location West House, Akrotiri
The description mentions "only a few locks of hair" Ok assuming the stange looking squiggly black things ar locks of hair. But... it goes on to say "has a shaven head". Yet whatever that blue and grey hair shaped area on the the top of the heads of either figure is supposed to be you could not describe these figures as having "shaven heads". Basically the color of their scalp or hair is not mentioned a shaven head would have the same color as the skin tone. Also the caption to the blue haired one says 4 foot 5 inches tall. Although the quote doesn't specify which fisherman it's talking about, the description here is "one meter" that's a few inches over 3 feet, so there are still some questions here
Here's the boxers also from Akrotiri. A lot of it is reconstructed. Another weird looking hair cut, long thick black braids maybe but not on every part of the scalp There is also that bluish color on the scalp
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
OK 10-0-1. The guy above may be a admixed. Crete had a few whites. His body seems cold adapted. He has African typical steatopygous rump and very dark skin. However these...seems Saharan.
10-0-1.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^Ostrich
Can you(rhetorical) pick out the black people here..Notice the reconstructed sections/people are light brown.
The first advanced Bronze Age civilization of Europe was established by the Minoans about 5,000 years before present. Since Sir Arthur Evans exposed the Minoan civic centre of Knossos, archaeologists have speculated on the origin of the founders of the civilization. Evans proposed a North African origin; Cycladic, Balkan, Anatolian and Middle Eastern origins have also been proposed. Here we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by analysing mitochondrial DNA from Minoan osseous remains from a cave ossuary in the Lassithi plateau of Crete dated 4,400–3,700 years before present. Shared haplotypes, principal component and pairwise distance analyses refute the Evans North African hypothesis. Minoans show the strongest relationships with Neolithic and modern European populations and with the modern inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau. Our data are compatible with the hypothesis of an autochthonous development of the Minoan civilization by the descendants of the Neolithic settlers of the island.
These results might not go over very well with some posters here, especially since African populations like the Egyptians were found to have the most distant genetic relationship from the Minoans.
I don't see what the discord is. The dates of the tests given back to Minoan Bronze Age times. Of course Europeans were present on Crete by then. This in no way refutes the findings that Africans were the earliest settlers of the island.
British archaeologist Arthur Evans (1851-1941), who conducted excavations on the island, was convinced of African migrations to ancient Crete. He pointed out that:
"The multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast, and which we undoubtedly have to deal with in the pre dynastic population of the Nile Valley, can in fact be hardly explained on any other hypothesis than that of an actual settlement in Southern Crete."
The research team of C.H. and H.B. Hawes, the latter of whom, like Evans, conducted important archaeological excavations in Crete, [...] noted that: "Anthropologists are inclined to the view that the Neolithic people of Crete were immigrants, and probably came from North Africa."
Historian H.R. Hall, also Oxford trained, shared Evans' position on the early population of Minoan Crete:
"While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plain of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt."
Whether the Minoan culture was more brilliant than that of Egypt is highly questionable at best, but on the other points Hall seems to just about to hit the mark. Evans, again, indeed considered Egypt and Libya as the springboards of Minoan civilization; so much so that he structured his own Minoan chronology on that of dynastic Egypt. He was particularly struck by the similarities in the contents of the of the tombs of the ancient Minoans and Egyptians:
"So numerous, in fact, are the points, of comparison presented by the contents of these early interments with those of pre dynastic Egypt that, far-fetched as the conclusion might appear at first sight, I was already some years since constrained to put forth the suggestion that about the time of the conquest of the lower Nile Valley by the first historic dynasty some part of the older population had actually settled in this southern foreland of Crete."
Gordon Childe also commented on the relations between Crete and pre dynastic Egypt:
"At least on the Mesara, the great plain of southern Crete facing Africa, Minoan Crete's indebtedness to the Nile is disclosed in the most intimate aspects of its culture. Not only do the forms of early Minoan stone vases, the precision of the lapidaries' technique and the aesthetic selection of variegated stones as his materials carry on the the pre dynastic tradition, Nilotic religious customs such as the use of the sistrum, the wearing of amulets in the forms of legs, mummies and monkeys, and statuettes plainly derived from Gerzean `block figures,' and personal habits revealed by depilatory tweezers of the Egyptian shape and stone unguent palettes from the early tombs and, later, details of costumes such as the penis-sheath and loin-cloth betoken something deeper than the external relations of commerce."
African Presence In Early Europe, Edited by Ivan Van Sertima Man, God And Civilization, by John G. Jackson
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC. But men and women are always represented with black hair, and the presence of fair-haired people is not attested in the Aegean until later Greek times. Some very tall men buried in the Mycenaean shaft graves may be descendants of invaders who entered the mainland at the end of the 3rd millennium. A few skeletons from the single graves that appear on the mainland at the very end of the Bronze Age suggest the presence of new people from the north."--- Sinclair Hood, The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
Neolithic Minoan skull Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Don’t believe me? Anyone has the picture of the “Captain of the blacks” from Crete.
The before and after shots?
Also the “Bull rider”
And “the three ladies”.
I am on the road now so I can them dig it out.
It is ironic, given his modern reputation as an out-and-out racist, that one of the most tendentious restorations of a Minoan fresco, carried out under his direction and partly to his bidding, actually introduced a pair of black African soldiers as major figures. Known by Evans as the "Captain of the Blacks" fresco, it was restored to show a Minoan warrior running ahead of two black comrades or subordinates. In fact the only evidence for the black soldiers is a handful of fragments of black paint, which need not have been from human figures at all. Knossos and the Prophets of Modernism by Cathy Gere, University of Chicago Press
So do you think Evans totally 'made up' the likenesses of the black men-- that they were complete fabrications of his mind??
Mind you such likeness are based on other frescoes found in the Knossos palace. These are frescoes not shown elsewhere not even on the internet. As I've stated many times before, the most complete duplication I've seen of the Knossos frescoes are in the waiting halls of the Poseidon Adventure in Disney World. Many years ago when I was a kid and had no idea about African roots of Minoans I was surprised to see black peoples on the Minoan frescoes. The faces used to reconstruct the blacks of the 'Captain of the Blacks' were based on such figures.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I don't know about you DJ but nice lead. I have check out Hall and others you cited. Your timing is peculiar.
Agreed, the black faces may be inaccurate , but the thigh is black.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ]I don't see what the discord is. The dates of the tests given back to Minoan Bronze Age times. Of course Europeans were present on Crete by then. This in no way refutes the findings that Africans were the earliest settlers of the island.
Piece of shyt gutter troll xyyman says they are both African, that the Minoan civilization from start to finish was predominantly Saharan African
_________^NUBIAN________________^MINOAN OF BLACK EGYPTIAN DESCENT Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ it's called doing more thorough research, look into it
Don't worry, I'll do just that, as I always do.
quote: Stamatoyannopoulos and his research team analyzed samples from 37 skeletons found in a cave in Crete’s Lassithi plateau and compared them with mitochondrial DNA sequences from 135 modern and ancient human populations. The Minoan samples revealed 21 distinct mitochondrial DNA variations, of which six were unique to the Minoans and 15 were shared with modern and ancient populations. None of the Minoans carried mitochondrial DNA variations characteristic of African populations.
Further analysis showed that the Minoans were only distantly related to Egyptian, Libyan, and other North African populations. The Minoan shared the greatest percentage of their mitochondrial DNA variation with European populations, especially those in Northern and Western Europe.
When plotted geographically, shared Minoan mitochondrial DNA variation was lowest in North Africa and increased progressively across the Middle East, Caucasus, Mediterranean islands, Southern Europe, and mainland Europe. The highest percentage of shared Minoan mitochondrial DNA variation was found with Neolithic populations from Southern Europe.
quote: Based on similarities between Minoan artifacts and those from Egypt and Libya, Evans proposed that the Minoan civilization founders migrated into the area from North Africa
quote: The first Neolithic humans reached Crete about 9,000 years before present (YBP)1, 2, coinciding with the development and adoption of the agricultural practices in the Near East and the extensive Neolithic population diffusion (8,000–9,500 YBP) that brought farming to Europe3.
--A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete, Jeffery R. Hughey et al.
I believe Hg E-V13 is associated with expanding farmers from the Middle East into the Mediterranean as well, during the same Neolithic time frame.
I wonder what this distance is, don't you?
Looking into the supplements. It basically indirectly confirms that ancient Egyptians weren't related to Europeans and vice versa. Especially with the recent DNA on ancient Egyptian mummies.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
This should be chalked up in the win column for me. This is suppose to be your and others forte, and me being an amateur(amateur hour) at first glance saw that it was a fake or at a minimum a bad reproduction. This gives me the impression you don’t knowhat you are talking about. You cannot tell when something is fake or not. Which brings into question your discipline. …, are you a French teacher, a comic student, or something? How could you have not seen that? TP posted what looks like the original. Nevertheless the Creteans are dark skinned people with a few whites in between. Clearly at that time the vast majority of the population was Beberlike people similar to North African groups. Of course these people have been virtually exterminated just as those in Sardinia. There are traces of the genes still present in the extant population.
However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
Sergi resolved this issue already, over 100ya. Studying skulls of these people proving they are African migrants from the Great Lakes region. Maybe Holliday et al can do something similar on their limb ratio.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Anen (TT 120), MMA graphic expedition 1931 Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: facsimile
.
KEFTIU at Abydos, Ramses Temple
^^^^ all fake Troll Patrol revelaed the authentic black African>
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
^^^^ another win for xyyman and African Minoa
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^LOL at the childish behavior every time when this person above is being cornered. Or can't respond intelligently. Due to lack on the subject.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This should be chalked up in the win column for me. This is suppose to be your and others forte, and me being an amateur(amateur hour) at first glance saw that it was a fake or at a minimum a bad reproduction. This gives me the impression you don’t knowhat you are talking about. You cannot tell when something is fake or not. Which brings into question your discipline. …, are you a French teacher, a comic student, or something? How could you have not seen that? TP posted what looks like the original. Nevertheless the Creteans are dark skinned people with a few whites in between. Clearly at that time the vast majority of the population was Beberlike people similar to North African groups. Of course these people have been virtually exterminated just as those in Sardinia. There are traces of the genes still present in the extant population.
However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
Sergi resolved this issue already, over 100ya. Studying skulls of these people proving they are African migrants from the Great Lakes region. Maybe Holliday et al can do something similar on their limb ratio.
I have no real opinion on this subject, because my knowledge on it is limited.
But from what is written, you could be right on them being mixed. And I think they cranked up the time frame a few notches.LOL
quote: The first Neolithic humans reached Crete about 9,000 years before present (YBP)1, 2, coinciding with the development and adoption of the agricultural practices in the Near East and the extensive Neolithic population diffusion (8,000–9,500 YBP) that brought farming to Europe3.
--A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete, Jeffery R. Hughey et al.
The associated Hg E-V13 is a said the be the neolithic farmers who expanded from the "Near East" into the Mediterranean.
E-V13 mutated from E-M78 about 13Kya.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^LOL at the childish behavior every time when this person above is being cornered. Or can't respond intelligently.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] This should be chalked up in the win column for me. This is suppose to be your and others forte, and me being an amateur(amateur hour) at first glance saw that it was a fake or at a minimum a bad reproduction. This gives me the impression you don’t knowhat you are talking about. You cannot tell when something is fake or not. Which brings into question your discipline. …, are you a French teacher, a comic student, or something? How could you have not seen that? TP posted what looks like the original. Nevertheless the Creteans are dark skinned people with a few whites in between. Clearly at that time the vast majority of the population was Beberlike people similar to North African groups. Of course these people have been virtually exterminated just as those in Sardinia. There are traces of the genes still present in the extant population.
However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
Sergi resolved this issue already, over 100ya. Studying skulls of these people proving they are African migrants from the Great Lakes region. Maybe Holliday et al can do something similar on their limb ratio.
I have no real opinion on this subject, because my knowledge on it is limited.
But from what is written, you could be right on them being mixed. And I think they cranked up the time frame a few notches.
He didn't say they were mixed. can't you read? He's clearly saying the Minonas were black saharan Africans over and over again.
read #5
" 4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact."
^^^ that means the Minoans were Black Africans and if you find one exception it doesn't change that
now read 1,2,3, 5,6, 7 African, African, African
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Piece of shyt gutter troll xyyman says they are both African, that the Minoan civilization from start to finish was predominantly Saharan African
ROTFLMAOH
First off, YOU making ad-hominem attacks on me and calling me a troll is like a septic tank calling a washing machine "dirty". Second of all, what does any of what I cited have to do with what Xyzman says? What does any of what Xyz says even matter to you? Answer it doesn't-- you are just using him as your personal strawman as you always do when you are desperate.
quote: _________^NUBIAN________________^MINOAN OF BLACK EGYPTIAN DESCENT
Again with your silly labels.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Anen (TT 120), MMA graphic expedition 1931 Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: facsimile
Mind you the man above though labeled Keftiu, does not look so not only in physical appearance but dress. The cap he wears as well as his style of robe and even the curled toe shoes are strikingly like those of a Hattian or Hittite. Note that Crete was settled by waves of folks from Anatolia as well as Europe during the Bronze Age.
quote:KEFTIU at Abydos, Ramses Temple
Are you sure about the labeling? His features and fillet are those of an Asiatic from the Levant.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^^ you are a fvcking asshole
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
Ok, so this is why it's reflected like this?
Plus Hg's Y J2 and E-V13.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
no...Black African migrants.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: OK
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^Ostrich
Can you(rhetorical) pick out the black people here..Notice the reconstructed sections/people are light brown.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Notice the reconstructed sections/people are light brown.
Look at how lies are created to "white out" Blacks from history.
.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^^
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
Ok, so this is why it's reflected like this?
Plus Hg's Y J2 and E-V13.
Correct. Nobody (at least nobody with sense) is denying Crete had European people present since the Bronze Age. In fact this is reflected in historical records via Linear B and the expansion of the Mycenaean empire into Crete.
quote:Originally posted by the frustrated lyinass,: ^^^^ you are a fvcking asshole
Says the troll so quick to name call and cuss another poster out. Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^I get the feeling, they may have lied.
Subtyping of Y-chromosomal haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a) by SNP assay and its forensic application S. Caratti, et al.
Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction.
Phylogeny of Y-chromosome haplogroups and their frequencies (%) in the examined populations. Nomenclature and haplogroup labelling according to the Y Chromosome Consortium (http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/) updated according to Karafet et al. 32 *Paragroups: Y chromosomes not defined by any phylogenetic downstream-reported and -examined mutation. aIntrapopulation haplogroup diversity. The terminal markers of haplogroups E-V12 and E-V13 (V32 and V27, respectively) were typed but did not show any variation.
Frequency (left) and variance (right) distributions of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, observed in this survey. Frequency data are reported in Figure 2, variance data are relative to the examined microsatellite reported in the Supplementary Table S2. We acknowledge that interpolated spatial frequency surfaces should be viewed with caution because of sample size.41 Data from this study. Frequency and variance values were assigned to sample-collection places (dots). Population samples (geographically close) with less than five observations were pooled and the corresponding variance assigned to a middle position of the pooled sample locations. +Data from the literature.13, 23, 27, 28, 36, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54
^ What do you mean by "they"? Just to be sure, are you referring to some posters here or the authors of the OP article?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^The OP article is what I am referring at.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
What happened? I thought the thread was all fucgekd up with oversize pics. Did someone fix it?
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
Here we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by analysing mitochondrial DNA from Minoan osseous remains from a cave ossuary in the Lassithi plateau of Crete dated 4,400–3,700 years before present.
Refresh my memory on this Patrol or Truth. YBP uses 1950 as it baseline does it not? If so, 4400-3700 years before 1950 would date their samples to around 2400 BC/BCE. If not I stand corrected, but I am not clear on their dating.
If their sampling is 2400BC, or BCE, this is over 1000 years later than/after the already established Nile Valley civilizations, which of course got more elaborate over its time span leading up to around that period. Their sampling if thus, does not fully address developments in Crete much earlier, which still leaves room for North African influence in the Cretan area, mingled with other influences or migrations for elsewhere. Indeed as assorted writers have noted:
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid.." -- Encyclopedia Britannica 1990 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 20: Greek and Roman Civilizations
The "Aegean area" in these writings, INCLUDES Crete. WIth a "classic" Bronze Age starting around 3300 BCE per some, this leaves a time range overlap for North African influence. And since "Neolithic times" can be reckoned variously from 12,000 BCE to start, this again leaves plenty of time for North African influence, later joined with ther "Eurasian" influences. As other writers have said "Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types.."
These results might not go over very well with some posters here, especially since African populations like the Egyptians were found to have the most distant genetic relationship from the Minoans.
^^Sure- you will find some posters on here who like to speak about vast African influences in Europe, including assorted pasty-faced kings and white bluebloods- King Philip of Spain anyone? But such claims would not be recognizably "Afrocentric" (yes the term is variable). Few credible "Afrocentric" scholars are running around claiming that Minoan origins are all African. Any such claim would be a bogus strawman set up to "refute." Diop for example, never rushed out to claim any such thing. In his "African Origin of Civilization" Diop argued for a measure of Egyptian INFLUENCE that shaped civ on Crete, and even gives an example of artistic influence, (pg 229, 209, etc) but he never went on claim an African origin for Minoan civilization.
So if you run into any who keep talkin 'bout how "Afrocentrists" supposedly "believe" that Minoan civilization originates in Africa this would be clearly bogus. And there is plenty of room in the Neolithic for various strands of influence to mix, including North African. Different strands would be stronger in different eras.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
^^Indeed. And people like Diop recognized this, and make no sweeping claims attributing all of Minoan origin to Egypt. ---------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by xyyman: However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
^^You have a point partially, but I think people should be careful of any extensive claims of an African origin. African elements were in place on Crete but there were other influences. A mixed, variable population probably fits the data best. The exact mix I think would depend on the time period being studied. Saying their technology and culture is African also is tricky as a blanket claim, unless you can come up with detailed specifics. Even Diop limited the scope of his argument- influence and interaction yes, blanket Minoan origin claim no.
Originally posted by Troll patrol: ^I get the feeling, they may have lied.
Summarize your argument Patrol. Do you mean they are downplaying certain things? ?
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
I find it rather peculiar they did not mention E-V13 in that paper. People who carried E-V13 were suppose to be Neolithic Farmers. Ironically Natufians follow a similar path.
And then we have this:
quote: "Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2010)
A fresh paper:
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: I find it rather peculiar they did not mention E-V13 in that paper. People who carried E-V13 were suppose to be Neolithic Farmers. Ironically
And then we have this:
quote: "Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2010)
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
It is intresting that population geneticist use the slave trade to explain african presence outside Africa.
Also interestingly they don't identify which genes are ancient.
The failure to accept a voluntary migration of Africans to Eurpe makes many, if not all of their conclusions suspect.
.
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^ agreed!
Posted by Omo Baba (Member # 18816) on :
Posted by mena7 (Member # 20555) on :
Beautiful coin of black Greek Omo BaBa. Black African created Minoan civilization, Greek civilization, Etruscan civilization, and Roman civilization. We have to honor or ancestor by putting them back in world history.
Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
quote:Originally posted by mena7: Beautiful coin of black Greek Omo BaBa. Black African created Minoan civilization, Greek civilization, Etruscan civilization, and Roman civilization. We have to honor or ancestor by putting them back in world history.
Not because there was an African presence in Europe in Ancient times that they created all the civilizations there. Lets leave that kind of thinking to the euronuts of the past. From what I gathered, the influence of these attested African presence still needs to be determined.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:Originally posted by mena7: Beautiful coin of black Greek Omo BaBa. Black African created Minoan civilization, Greek civilization, Etruscan civilization, and Roman civilization. We have to honor or ancestor by putting them back in world history.
Not because there was an African presence in Europe in Ancient times that they created all the civilizations there. Lets leave that kind of thinking to the euronuts of the past. From what I gathered, the influence of these attested African presence still needs to be determined.
Except for Rome and Greece what civilizations did Europeans create?
Contemporary European civilizations are the result of Black Muslim influence in Europe. In fact the first "universities" in Europe were founded by the Black Moors.
.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Its hard to tell if he is concave or toothless.
I... know.... late reply
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
But more importantly...
quote:A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete
Jeffery R. Hughey, Peristera Paschou, Petros Drineas, Donald Mastropaolo, Dimitra M. Lotakis, Patrick A. Navas, Manolis Michalodimitrakis, John A. Stamatoyannopoulos & George Stamatoyannopoulos https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871 ...In this study, we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by comparing Minoan mtDNA polymorphisms with those of 135 modern and ancient populations. We study skeletal remains from two Minoan populations, one in central Crete, the other in southern Crete. Following the application of a series of strict authentication criteria, we use for our comparisons the DNAs of only 37 Minoans whose remains were well preserved in a cave ossuary located in the Lassithi plateau of east-central Crete. We determine mtDNA polymorphisms using two different methods applied in two different laboratories. Our calculations of genetic distances, haplotype sharing and principal component analysis (PCA) **exclude a North African origin of the Minoans. Instead, we find that the highest genetic affinity of the Minoans is with Neolithic and modern European populations. We conclude that the most likely origin of the Minoans is the Neolithic population that migrated to Europe about 9,000 YBP.** We propose that the Minoan civilization most likely was developed by the autochthonous population of the Bronze Age Crete. Comparisons of Minoans with North African populations A data set containing HVS-1 sequences of 135 modern and ancient populations was used for comparisons with the sequences of the Minoans (Supplementary Table S4). For several statistical analyses, the modern populations were grouped to 71 geographic or ethnic groups (Supplementary Table S4). Twenty-one distinct Minoan mtDNA haplotypes were observed, six were unique to the Minoans and fifteen were shared with modern and ancient populations (Fig. 2). None of the Minoans carried the characteristic African mtDNA haplotypes of the L haplogroup (Supplementary Table S2). Furthermore, calculations of the average pairwise genetic distances (Supplementary Table S5) illustrate the great genetic distance between the Minoans and the Egyptian, the Libyan and the other North African population s (Table 1). Figure 3a shows graphically in the form of geographic density maps the shared mtDNA lineages between the Minoans and 71 extant population groups. Notice that the Minoans displayed the least sharing of haplotypes with North Africans. Figures 2b and 4 present the percentages of sharing between the Minoan mtDNA haplotypes with various population groups; notice again that the least frequencies of sharing are with North African populations. PCA also demonstrates that the Minoans are clearly distanced from the Egyptian, Libyan and North African populations (Fig. 5, Supplementary Table S6). These data strongly argue against the Evans hypothesis of Egyptian or Libyan origin of the founders of the Minoan civilization. The North African influence on the Minoan civilization was most likely accomplished through cultural exchange....
Andromeda was the first to point this out, but the journal 'Nature' published the above findings that Minoans of ancient Crete were NOT related to North Africans like the Egyptians and Libyans but rather to the first farmers of the Levant, yet the more recent paper from 'Nature' on the Egyptian Abusir Mummies say these mummies are also related to the first farmers and not "Africans"! One can see the contradiction here. Why does it seem like nobody is pointing this out??
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
. The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
See my movie discussing the African heritage of Socretes,Homer and the heroes of Homer's work.
Historians have known for years that the original Cretans were replaced by an Indo-European population after 1500 BC, as a result, we have Linear A, written by the original Minoans, and Linear B written by the Indo-Aryan speaking Minoans.
The people in this study were mainly Indo-European speakers. In the Supplement, the authors make it clear that they used dna from Lassithi cave sample. This dna is roughly dated to "1800" BC. The dna is probably much younger and as a result, it would reflect the invading Indo-European population not the Keftiu=Eteo-Cretans/Eteo-Minoans.
This dna study is just an attempt to protray the Cretans as non-Africa. The dna evidence disputes this myth, because most belong to haplogroups H and U5.
The highest concentration of U5 is found among Berbers in NWA . It is also carried by Mande and Fulani Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa (1-4).
The U5 haplogroup carried by the Mande, like other SSWA is characterized by 16189,16192,16270 and 16320. The presence of hg U5 among the Mande speakers supports the linguistic evidence concerning the Keftiu.
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
quote: The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. . . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East. A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%. Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine. The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
References: Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543 Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf
Footnotes
1. Cerný V., Hajek M., Bromova M., Cmejla R., Diallo I. & Brdicka R. 2006. MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations. Hum. Biol., 78: 9-27.
2. Rosa A, Brehem A. 2011. African human mtDNA phylogeography at-a-glance. J. Anthropol. Sci, 89:25-58.
3. Coia V., Destro-Bisol G., Verginelli F., Battaggia C., Boschi I., Cruciani F., Spedini G., Comas D. & Calafell F. 2005. Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 128: 678-681.
4. Ely B., Wilson J.L., Jackson F. & Jackson B.A. 2006. African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC. Biol., 4: 34. .
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Some researchers love to lie and make Black populations into “white” populations. In a recent article researchers claim that the Minoans were white because the majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. As a result, if the majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups mtDNA H (43.2%) they represent a Black population not white population, since this mtDNA is carried by the Tuareg who are Black.
The Y-chromosomes of Cretans also indicate the Cretans were Blacks Laisel Martinez et al , Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau, Eur J Hum Genet. 2007 http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html
provides a detailed discussion of the y-chromosomes in Crete.
The presence of y-chromosomes R1b, T, K and H in Crete indicate that the Cretans were Black.
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. Martinez et al (2007), observed that In the case of the R1 haplogroup, while frequencies of 19.2% and 21.7% are found in the Heraklion Prefecture and Lasithi Prefecture populations, respectively, more than half (56.1%) of the Lasithi Plateau individuals are R1-M306-derived.
In the case of Cretan E3b3-M123 (M34) chromosomes, they most likely signal East African or Middle-Eastern gene flow rather than European, due to the scarcity of this lineage in the latter area.19, 26 Similarly, the presence of E3b-M35* individuals in the Heraklion Prefecture population could probably be attributed to an East-African or North-African contribution.
This is interesting because researchers claim that haplotype H indicates that the Siddis, an African population in India are African because they carry haplotype H. Ramana et al (2001) claims that the discovery of H1 and H2 haplotypes among the Siddis is a “signature” of their African ancestry.
The finding that other Minoans carried haplotype T and K also indicates that the Minoans were Blacks, not whites. There are a number of shared African and Indian Y-chromosome haplotypes. These haplotypes include Y-hg T-M70 and H1. Haplogroup T-M70 is found among several Dravidian speaking tribal groups in South India, including the Yerukul (or Kurru) , Gonds and Kols. Y-haplogroup T-M70 is found in the eastern and southern regions of India (Trivedi et al, 2008). It has a relatively high frequency in Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh (Sharma et al, 2009). Sharma et al (2009) in a study of 674 Dalits found that 89.39 % belonged to Y-hg K*, in relation to Dravidian speakers it was revealed that Y-hg T-M70 was 11.1%. Trevedi et al (2008) report that Y-hg T-M70 is predominately found among Upper Caste Dravidians at a frequency of 31.9. The highest frequency of T-M70 in the World is found among the Fulani (18%) of West Africa. Martinez et al (2007) also found T-M70 and hg K in Crete see the figure above.
Ramana et al (2001) claims that the discovery of H1 and H2 haplotypes among the Siddis is a “signature” of their African ancestry. As a result, the Y-hg H1 subclade frequency among Dravidian speakers can also be considered as an indicator of an African-Cretan-Dravidian connection.
The H1 haplotype is found among many Dravidians. Sengupta et al (2006) noted that the subclades H1 and H2 were found among 26% of the Dravidian speakers in their study, especially in Tamil Nadu. Trivedi et al (2008) found the Y-hg H1 frequency of 22.2 among Dravidian speakers in their study. Sharma et al (2008) reports a frequency rate of 25.2%.
In conclusion, because the majority of Minoans were classified in mtdna haplogroups H (43.2%), the ancient Minoans were Black, not white, since the Tuareg are Blacks. The presence of y-chromosomes R1-306,R1b, T, K and H in Crete indicate that the Cretans were Black.
Ramana, G. V., Su, B., Jin, L., Singh, L., Wang, N., Underhill, P. & Chakraborty, R. (2001) Y-chromosome SNP haplotypes suggest evidence of gene flow among caste, tribe, and the migrant Siddi populations of Andhra Pradesh, South India. Eur J Hum Genet 9, 695 – 700. http://archive.is/UlNyk
Sengupta S, Zhivottovsky LA, King R, Mehdi SQ, Edmonds CA, Chow C-E T, Lin AA, Mitra M, Sil SK, Ramesh A, Rani MVU, Thakur CT, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Majumder PP, Underhill PA. (2006). Polarity and temporality of high-resolution Y-Chromosome distributions in India Identify both indigenous and exogenous expansions and reveal minor genetic influence of Central Asian Pastoralists. Am J of Hum Genet, 78 (2):202-221.
Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AJS, Tiwari PK & Bamezai NK.(2009). The Indian origin of paternal R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. J of Hum Genet, 54: 47-55.
Trivedi R, Sahoo S, Singh A, Bindu GH, Banerjee J, Tandon M, Gaikwad S, Rajkumar R, Sitalaximi T, Ashma R, Chainy GBN, & Kashyap VK. (2008). Genetic imprints of pleistocene origin of Indian populations: A comprehensive Phylogeographic sketch of Indian Y-Chromosomes. Int J Hum Genet, 8(1-2): 97-118
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
This one is a bit confusing.
quote:Using a genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) panel, we observed population structure in a diverse group of Europeans and European Americans. Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group.
quote: Stamatoyannopoulos and his research team analyzed samples from 37 skeletons found in a cave in Crete’s Lassithi plateau and compared them with mitochondrial DNA sequences from 135 modern and ancient human populations. The Minoan samples revealed 21 distinct mitochondrial DNA variations, of which six were unique to the Minoans and 15 were shared with modern and ancient populations. None of the Minoans carried mitochondrial DNA variations characteristic of African populations.
Further analysis showed that the Minoans were only distantly related to Egyptian, Libyan, and other North African populations. The Minoan shared the greatest percentage of their mitochondrial DNA variation with European populations, especially those in Northern and Western Europe.
When plotted geographically, shared Minoan mitochondrial DNA variation was lowest in North Africa and increased progressively across the Middle East, Caucasus, Mediterranean islands, Southern Europe, and mainland Europe. The highest percentage of shared Minoan mitochondrial DNA variation was found with Neolithic populations from Southern Europe.
quote: Based on similarities between Minoan artifacts and those from Egypt and Libya, Evans proposed that the Minoan civilization founders migrated into the area from North Africa
quote: The first Neolithic humans reached Crete about 9,000 years before present (YBP)1, 2, coinciding with the development and adoption of the agricultural practices in the Near East and the extensive Neolithic population diffusion (8,000–9,500 YBP) that brought farming to Europe3.
--A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete, Jeffery R. Hughey et al.
Looking into the supplements. It basically indirectly confirms that ancient Egyptians weren't related to Europeans and vice versa. Especially with the recent DNA on ancient Egyptian mummies.
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@ the excuses!
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