Apparently Mayans believe their script is the same as some glyphs found in Egypt. This European scholar however says the glyphs were not related to ancient dynastic Egyptian.
More importantly though is the theory that it may be a predynastic form of African script.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You're late. The Olmec writing is of Mande origin. Check out these videos.
The first researcher to recognize that the Olmec writing was Mande was Leo Wiener, in Africa and the discovery of America. He recognized that the writing on the Tuxtla statuette was written in Mande characters.
Here we have three examples of Mande writing the first picture is writing from a modern site.
Picture 2 is writing on the Tuxtla statuette from Mexico.
Picture 3 writing during the chariot age.
Note the symbol made up of squares with dots inside.
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Mojarra Stela .
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.
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Tuxtla Statuette
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The archaeological evidence suggest that the Olmec "miraculously appear on American soil".
Some researchers claim that I am wrongly ruling out an “indigenous revolution” for the origin of the Olmec civilization. This is their opinion—the archaeological evidence, not I, suggest that the founders of the Olmec civilization were not “indigenous” people.
In the Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership (1995), (ed.) by Carolyn Tate, on page 65, we find the following statement”Olmec culture as far as we know seems to have no antecedents; no material models remain for its monumental constructions and sculptures and the ritual acts captured in small objects”.
M. Coe, writing in Regional Perspective on the Olmecs (1989), (ed.) by Sharer and Grove, observed that “ on the contrary, the evidence although negative, is that the Olmec style of art, and Olmec engineering ability suddenly appeared full fledged from about 1200 BC”.
Mary E. Pye, writing in Olmec Archaeology in Mesoamerica (2000), (ed.) by J.E. Cark and M.E. Pye,makes it clear after a discussion of the pre-Olmec civilizations of the Mokaya tradition, that these cultures contributed nothing to the rise of the Olmec culture. Pye wrote “The Mokaya appear to have gradually come under Olmec influence during Cherla times and to have adopted Olmec ways. We use the term olmecization to describe the processes whereby independent groups tried to become Olmecs, or to become like the Olmecs” (p.234). Pye makes it clear that it was around 1200 BC that Olmec civilization rose in Mesoamerica. She continues “Much of the current debate about the Olmecs concerns the traditional mother culture view. For us this is still a primary issue. Our data from the Pacific coast show that the mother culture idea is still viable in terms of cultural practices. The early Olmecs created the first civilization in Mesoamerica; they had no peers, only contemporaries” (pp.245-46).
Richard A. Diehl The Olmecs:America’s first civilization (2005), wrote “ The identity of these first Olmecs remains a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among the local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 BC to resolve the issue” (p.25).
Pool (17-18), in Olmec Archaeology and early MesoAmerica (2007), argues that continuity exist between the Olmec and pre-Olmec cultures in Mexico “[even]though Coe now appears to favor an autochthonous origin for Olmec culture (Diehl & Coe 1995:150), he long held that the Olmec traits appeared at San Lorenzo rather suddenly during the Chicharras phase (ca 1450-1408 BC) (Coe 1970a:25,32; Coe and Diehl 1980a:150)”.
Pool admits (p.95), that “this conclusion contrasts markedly with that of the excavators of San Lorenzo, who reported dramatic change in ceramic type and [b] argued on this basis for a foreign incursion of Olmecs into Olman (Coe and Diehl 1980a, p.150).”
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa. They spoke a Mande language. Evidence of this connection comes from the fact:
1) both groups used jade to make their tools.
2) both groups made large stone heads. Here is an African head dating back to the same period.
3) The Mande came to Mexico in boats from the Sahara down the ancient Niger River that formerly emptied in the Sahara or they could have made their way to the Atlantic Ocean down the Senegal River.
4) The Olmec writing points back to a Mande origin in Africa.
.
5) Olmec skeletons that are African.
6) Similar white, and red-and-black pottery.
7) Introduction of the 13 month 20 day calendar.
8) Mayan adoption of the Mande term for writing.
9)Mande religious and culture terms adopted by Mayan people.
. Check out my video on the name for the Olmecs: Xi
The evidence presented by these authors make it clear that the Olmec introduced a unique culture to Mesoamerica that was adopted by the Mesoamericans. As these statements make it clear that was no continuity between pre-Olmec cultures and the Olmec culture.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
After Neil Steede and I deciphered the ‘Salazer Brick’ from Comalcalco made it clear that you can read the Mayan script based on Olmec—while reading the inscriptions in the Mayan language. To test this theory I deciphered some the Ek-Chuah Black Trader god from the Tro-Crotensiana Codex.
It is interesting to note that the boys drilling are depicted as Blacks in the Dresden and Tro-Cotesianus Codexes.
To read the Mayan inscriptions I break down the Olmec syllabic signs which make up the Mayan hierogyphs. Once these signs are given a phonetic value I read them in Yucatec Maya.
Below we will discuss some of these inscriptions.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
To read the Mayan inscriptions I break down the Olmec syllabic signs which make up the Mayan hierogyphs. Once these signs are given a phonetic value I read them in Yucatec Maya.
As you can see when you look at the syllabic nature of many Mayan hieroglyphs the Codexs tell us much more than dates.
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde do you have location, date and source link for this?
Also what is the height and/or weight of this and location, link?
also you said:
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa. They spoke a Mande language. Evidence of this connection comes from the fact:
1) both groups used jade to make their tools.
jade tools in Africa? Do you have documentaion of this? Are you talking about Amazonite? I thought in Africa that is found in the South
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde do you have location, date and source link for this?
Also what is the height and/or weight of this and location, link?
also you said:
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa. They spoke a Mande language. Evidence of this connection comes from the fact:
1) both groups used jade to make their tools.
jade tools in Africa? Do you have documentaion of this? Are you talking about Amazonite? I thought in Africa that is found in the South
The West African head is not as large as the Olmec heads.
Yes Amazonite was used in Saharan Africa
It was found at many sites in the ancient Sahara by archaeologists from the University of Chicago led by Soreno See:
how about the sources of the two photos?
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Dana Marniche
quote:See about from 51:30. Apparently Mayans believe their script is the same as some glyphs found in Egypt. This European scholar however says the glyphs were not related to ancient dynastic Egyptian.
Try as I might I couldn't see the glyph the vid quality was very bad nor could I find it on the net no matter the combination of key words but interesting vid from the POV of a hyper-diffusionist..he is in the same direction of Dr Winters.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: how about the sources of the two photos?
Better yet, how about more valid evidence. No offense to Dana, but I am more than skeptical to claims of Egyptian or other African influence on Native American civilizations of Meso-America. This is not to say there was no contact between Africans and Americans pre-Columbus times as this possibility is still open.
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
I believe it is quite possible that Africans could have reached the Americas. I mean we have documented evidence of a Malian emperor saying he wanted to explore the Atlantic. And not only that but Muslim Africans already knew the world was a sphere. Its unfair to just dismiss the possibilities of Africans discovering the new world before Columbus as 'Afrocentric'. I mean the Vikings were able to reach the New world.
BUT! It is idiotic to say that the Olmecs were African or that Africans influenced ore Columbian American civilization.
If Africans and Native Americans had contact...What would that contact be like?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: I believe it is quite possible that Africans could have reached the Americas. I mean we have documented evidence of a Malian emperor saying he wanted to explore the Atlantic. And not only that but Muslim Africans already knew the world was a sphere. Its unfair to just dismiss the possibilities of Africans discovering the new world before Columbus as 'Afrocentric'. I mean the Vikings were able to reach the New world.
BUT! It is idiotic to say that the Olmecs were African or that Africans influenced ore Columbian American civilization.
If Africans and Native Americans had contact...What would that contact be like?
LOL. Why is it idiotic? There is no evidence that the Olmec existed in Mexico before 1200-1100 BC.
The archaeological evidence suggest that the Olmec "miraculously appear on American soil".
Some researchers claim that I am wrongly ruling out an “indigenous revolution” for the origin of the Olmec civilization. This is their opinion—the archaeological evidence, not I, suggest that the founders of the Olmec civilization were not “indigenous” people.
In the Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership (1995), (ed.) by Carolyn Tate, on page 65, we find the following statement”Olmec culture as far as we know seems to have no antecedents; no material models remain for its monumental constructions and sculptures and the ritual acts captured in small objects”.
M. Coe, writing in Regional Perspective on the Olmecs (1989), (ed.) by Sharer and Grove, observed that “ on the contrary, the evidence although negative, is that the Olmec style of art, and Olmec engineering ability suddenly appeared full fledged from about 1200 BC”.
Mary E. Pye, writing in Olmec Archaeology in Mesoamerica (2000), (ed.) by J.E. Cark and M.E. Pye,makes it clear after a discussion of the pre-Olmec civilizations of the Mokaya tradition, that these cultures contributed nothing to the rise of the Olmec culture. Pye wrote “The Mokaya appear to have gradually come under Olmec influence during Cherla times and to have adopted Olmec ways. We use the term olmecization to describe the processes whereby independent groups tried to become Olmecs, or to become like the Olmecs” (p.234). Pye makes it clear that it was around 1200 BC that Olmec civilization rose in Mesoamerica. She continues “Much of the current debate about the Olmecs concerns the traditional mother culture view. For us this is still a primary issue. Our data from the Pacific coast show that the mother culture idea is still viable in terms of cultural practices. The early Olmecs created the first civilization in Mesoamerica; they had no peers, only contemporaries” (pp.245-46).
Richard A. Diehl The Olmecs:America’s first civilization (2005), wrote “ The identity of these first Olmecs remains a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among the local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 BC to resolve the issue” (p.25).
Pool (17-18), in Olmec Archaeology and early MesoAmerica (2007), argues that continuity exist between the Olmec and pre-Olmec cultures in Mexico “[even]though Coe now appears to favor an autochthonous origin for Olmec culture (Diehl & Coe 1995:150), he long held that the Olmec traits appeared at San Lorenzo rather suddenly during the Chicharras phase (ca 1450-1408 BC) (Coe 1970a:25,32; Coe and Diehl 1980a:150)”.
Pool admits (p.95), that “this conclusion contrasts markedly with that of the excavators of San Lorenzo, who reported dramatic change in ceramic type and [b] argued on this basis for a foreign incursion of Olmecs into Olman (Coe and Diehl 1980a, p.150).”
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa. They spoke a Mande language. Evidence of this connection comes from the fact:
1) both groups used jade to make their tools.
2) both groups made large stone heads. Here is an African head dating back to the same period.
3) The Mande came to Mexico in boats from the Sahara down the ancient Niger River that formerly emptied in the Sahara or they could have made their way to the Atlantic Ocean down the Senegal River.
4) The Olmec writing points back to a Mande origin in Africa.
.
5) Olmec skeletons that are African.
6) Similar white, and red-and-black pottery.
7) Introduction of the 13 month 20 day calendar.
8) Mayan adoption of the Mande term for writing.
9)Mande religious and culture terms adopted by Mayan people.
. Check out my video on the name for the Olmecs: Xi
The evidence presented by these authors make it clear that the Olmec introduced a unique culture to Mesoamerica that was adopted by the Mesoamericans. As these statements make it clear that was no continuity between pre-Olmec cultures and the Olmec culture.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde is keeping the source, particalar location and size of this head secret.
Olmec
Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
@Clyde Winters
Luke Lioness said. Where are the links for most the things you are posting?
I never seen that type of Olmec head before.
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
I am already knowledgeable about your beliefs on the connection of Mayan and African scripts, Dr. Winters.
I was wondering about the proof that the script found in Egypt and shown in this video was Mayan.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: how about the sources of the two photos?
Better yet, how about more valid evidence. No offense to Dana, but I am more than skeptical to claims of Egyptian or other African influence on Native American civilizations of Meso-America. This is not to say there was no contact between Africans and Americans pre-Columbus times as this possibility is still open.
Djehuti - I am not meaning to be offensive either, but how did the internal dimensions of certain monumental structures down there in Central America come out to be to identical to those in Egyptian pyramids and how are identical similar ceremonial rituals acquired. I think you need to read Dr. Van Sertima's book on the subject carefully. I agree there was contact but I also feel that the chances of such things occurring are a million to one. I don't know if it was necessarily Egyptians that impacted the biology and culture of people down there but some Nilotic population apparently did. And there were definitely a percentage of Negroid and some have said both "hamitic" and negroid found among the remains of the earliest Olmecs near the pyramid complexes.
The only other answer would be some UFO connection which I'm not up to accepting at this point.lol! There is nothing wrong with or its not a matter of seeing such people as are found in Central America - some of whom are in fact still the color of Africans - or Polynesians as derived from both Asian and African people. They BOTH contributed to those populations and there was probably some early impact on those civilizations by an African or Nilotic-affiliated group. That doesn't mean there were not also indigenous Asian blacks already in parts of Central or South America, or that such people were not settled in Polynesia already.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: I believe it is quite possible that Africans could have reached the Americas. I mean we have documented evidence of a Malian emperor saying he wanted to explore the Atlantic. And not only that but Muslim Africans already knew the world was a sphere. Its unfair to just dismiss the possibilities of Africans discovering the new world before Columbus as 'Afrocentric'. I mean the Vikings were able to reach the New world.
BUT! It is idiotic to say that the Olmecs were African or that Africans influenced ore Columbian American civilization.
If Africans and Native Americans had contact...What would that contact be like?
Yes people should definitely not being saying the Olmecs were Africans because it is clear the majority of the skeletons there are not African. But unfortunately some people feel one can disregard forensic and physical anthropological evidence nowadays.
Now, were they "influenced" by the negroid peoples whose crania and skeletal evidence does IN FACT and UNQUESTIONABLY show up amidst some of the sites of the earliest Central American pyramids connected with this culture - that or the extent of that influence is still open for consideration and most certainly plausible.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
^^^I don't believe you know what you are writing about. The Olmec were the people living along the Gulf coast at LaVenta, Tres Zapotes and San Lorenzo.
The people called olmecs found at other sites are called colonial Olmecs, since their civilization was influenced by the African Olmecs.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche:
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: I believe it is quite possible that Africans could have reached the Americas. I mean we have documented evidence of a Malian emperor saying he wanted to explore the Atlantic. And not only that but Muslim Africans already knew the world was a sphere. Its unfair to just dismiss the possibilities of Africans discovering the new world before Columbus as 'Afrocentric'. I mean the Vikings were able to reach the New world.
BUT! It is idiotic to say that the Olmecs were African or that Africans influenced ore Columbian American civilization.
If Africans and Native Americans had contact...What would that contact be like?
Yes people should definitely not being saying the Olmecs were Africans because it is clear the majority of the skeletons there are not African. But unfortunately some people feel one can disregard forensic and physical anthropological evidence nowadays.
Now, were they "influenced" by the negroid peoples whose crania and skeletal evidence does IN FACT and UNQUESTIONABLY show up amidst some of the sites of the earliest Central American pyramids connected with this culture - that or the extent of that influence is still open for consideration and most certainly plausible.
There is no question the Olmecs, the people who founded civilization at Tres Zapotes, San Lorenzo and LaVenta were Africans as seen from the art, writing and religion.
Little has been done to analyze Olmec skeletons from these sites. But there is craniometric evidence supporting an African/negro for the vast majority of Olmec skeletons. Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).
Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).
To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind. In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco.
The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.
Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at Tlatilco.
The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.
Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.
First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.
Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.
Secondly, Rossum argues that Wiercinski was wrong about Blacks in ancient America because a comparison of modern native American skeletal material and the ancient Olmec skeletal material indicate no admixture. The study of Vargas and Rossum are flawed. They are flawed because the skeletal reference collection they used in their comparison of Olmec skeletal remains and modern Amerindian propulations because the Mexicans have been mixing with African and European populations since the 1500's. This has left many components of these Old World people within and among Mexican Amerindians.
The iconography of the classic Olmec and Mayan civilization show no correspondence in facial features. But many contemporary Maya and other Amerind groups show African characteristics and DNA. Underhill, et al (1996) found that the Mayan people have an African Y chromosome. This would explain the "puffy" faces of contemporary Amerinds, which are incongruent with the Mayan type associated with classic Mayan sculptures and stelas.
Wiercinski on the otherhand, compared his SRC to an unmixed European and African sample. This comparison avoided the use of skeletal material that is clearly mixed with Africans and Europeans, in much the same way as the Afro-American people he discussed in his essay who have acquired "white" features since mixing with whites due to the slave trade.
A. von Wuthenau (1980), and Wiercinski (1972b) highlight the numerous art pieces depicting the African or Black variety which made up the Olmec people. This re-anlysis of the Olmec skeletal meterial from Tlatilco and Cerro, which correctly identifies Armenoid, Dongolan and Loponoid as euphmisms for "Negro" make it clear that a substantial number of the Olmecs were Blacks support the art evidence and writing which point to an African origin for Olmec civilization.
In conclusion, the Olmec people were called Xi. They did not speak a Mixe-Zoque language they spoke a Mande language, which is the substratum language for many Mexican languages.
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa 3200 years ago.They came in boats which are depicted in the Izapa Stela no.5, in twelve migratory waves. These Proto-Olmecs belonged to seven clans which served as the base for the Olmec people.
Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).
The skeletal material from Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas and evidence that the Olmecs used an African writing to inscribe their monuments and artifacts, make it clear that Africans were a predominant part of the Olmec population. These Olmecs constructed complex pyramids and large sculptured monuments weighing tons. The Maya during the Pre-Classic period built pyramids over the Olmec pyramids to disguise the Olmec origin of these pyramids.
.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: ^^^I don't believe you know what you are writing about. The Olmec were the people living along the Gulf coast at LaVenta, Tres Zapotes and San Lorenzo.
The people called olmecs found at other sites are called colonial Olmecs, since their civilization was influenced by the African Olmecs.
.
Before i say something that might set you off Dr. Winters please answer the following question. Believe I am not trying to be argumentative here. "Little has been done to analyze Olmec skeletons from these sites. But there is craniometric evidence supporting an African/negro for the vast majority of Olmec skeletons. Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975)."
I'm not trying to be smart or funny but i'm having again some problem following your ideas. Is this - the above - what you are using to support your claim that the vast majority of Olmecs were of African origin?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
"As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks."
Lol! I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about when you keep lumping Armenoids who according to all physical anthropologists in any book European large nosed brachycephalic WHITE SKINNED people with equatorial groups then again I have nothing more to say to you. They DO NOT use the term "Armenoid" for black Africans. Anyone can check right now and see that.
Please don't respond with such SILLY nonsense again cause you take away any integrity that you would have had from learning about the black physical types in Asia found BY EUROPEANS.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The photo of the last Aztec couple and evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites described as Armenoid by Wiercinski and Chan, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).
Armenoid refers to negro or African people. The skeletal material from Tlatilco which has been described as Armenoid make it clear that Africans were a predominant part of the Olmec population. These Olmecs constructed complex pyramids and large sculptured monuments weighing tons. The Maya during the Pre-Classic period built pyramids over the Olmec pyramids to disguise the Olmec origin of these pyramids.
.
Tlatilco Dancer
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks."
Lol! I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about when you keep lumping Armenoids who according to all physical anthropologists in any book European large nosed brachycephalic WHITE SKINNED people with equatorial groups then again I have nothing more to say to you. They DO NOT use the term "Armenoid" for black Africans. Anyone can check right now and see that.
Last Aztec
Note the big nose.
Tlatilco Armenoid
Need I say more.
.
Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks."
Lol! I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about when you keep lumping Armenoids who according to all physical anthropologists in any book European large nosed brachycephalic WHITE SKINNED people with equatorial groups then again I have nothing more to say to you. They DO NOT use the term "Armenoid" for black Africans. Anyone can check right now and see that.
Please don't respond with such SILLY nonsense again cause you take away any integrity that you would have had from learning about the black physical types in Asia found BY EUROPEANS.
Indeed Dana. SO called "Armenoids" have long been viewed as "Caucasian" - quote:
”... distinguished three “short-headed (brachycephalic) southern Europeoids”: the Adriatic (or Dinaric) race, the Armenoid race, and the Pamiro-Ferganian race. These categories, which went back to Deniker and Ripleu at the turn of the twentieth century, place Caucasian peoples in the "Armenoid race." --Bruce David Baum The rise and fall of the Caucasian race 2006 Page 228
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Actually the Wiercinski chart says
"Armenoid-Bushman"
The Armenoid-Bushman is a combination of
The Armenian
"note the bignose" - Dr. Winters
.
*************AND**************
.
The Bushman
the result:
The Armenoid-Bushman
^^^ and because of dominant genes the Bushman half dominates the Armenian and makes him all African in type
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
quote:Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatoria
quote:Armenoid refers to negro or African people.
Agh. Clyde.
Yes, he's so dumb he can't even read typological craniometric data.
Clyde writes:
"Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black."
Truth: NONE of the racial types Wiercinski identified are analogous to the "West African type black". Go check Wierckinsi's study for yourself.
Clyde writes:
"Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975)"
Truth: The 13.5% and 4.5% figure is a reference to the racial component, not racial type. For example of the 13.5%, 0%, yes zilch, manifested metrically as an actual "Black" racial type. Yes, you read that right. Wiercinski did not find a single "Black" skull among the Olmecs. Clyde cannot read Wiercinski's data properly, he's a clown.
Clyde writes:
"Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs"
Truth: Wierciski's typology is diametrically opposed to ethnic origins. Quote: "the concept of individual races (individual typology) which utilises the notion of the racial type to denote a group of human individuals irrespective their populational descent" (Wiercinski, 1975). Get that? "irrespective their populational descent"...
I could go on, but it would be a waste of my own time. Clyde is an academic fraud, a liar, and as shown here, cannot read scientific data.
-- If you are an "Afrocentric" yourself, you should be worried. Clyde is clearly some plant in your movement.
Btw, Wiercinski HIMSELF in the study Clyde quotes describes the Armenoid as "White [variety]".
Further Wiercinski did not find a single "Black" skull in any Olmec series of crania.
Clyde cannot read typological data.
Posted by Faheemdunkers (Member # 20844) on :
Let me point out: I own all of Wiercinski's papers and have been translating/posting them online since 2010 [including his anthropometric studies on Egypt]. Clyde has read none of them properly, doesn't understand them, and also distorts them.
Clyde's other errors/gaffes:
(a) "because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school)"
Erm no. It falls under "Yellow" [Mongoloid], nothing to do with "Blacks". Further he can't even spell it right, its Lapponoid not "Loponoid".
(b) "The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco."
What an epic fail. lol. The only racial type Clyde attributes to leukoderms, under Wiercinski is in fact a White-Yellow transitional, not white. Most 20th century Polish typologists did not consider Alpines to be "White", but a mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid [hence explaining the wider nasal index etc].
Can Clyde get anything right?
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The photo of the last Aztec couple and evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites described as Armenoid by Wiercinski and Chan, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).
Armenoid refers to negro or African people. The skeletal material from Tlatilco which has been described as Armenoid make it clear that Africans were a predominant part of the Olmec population. These Olmecs constructed complex pyramids and large sculptured monuments weighing tons. The Maya during the Pre-Classic period built pyramids over the Olmec pyramids to disguise the Olmec origin of these pyramids.
.
Tlatilco Dancer
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quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks."
Lol! I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about when you keep lumping Armenoids who according to all physical anthropologists in any book European large nosed brachycephalic WHITE SKINNED people with equatorial groups then again I have nothing more to say to you. They DO NOT use the term "Armenoid" for black Africans. Anyone can check right now and see that.
Last Aztec
Note the big nose.
Tlatilco Armenoid
Need I say more.
.
4 Icon 1 posted 06-06-2013 04:50 AM Profile for Clyde Winters Author's Homepage Send New Private Message Edit/Delete Post Reply With Quote Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The photo of the last Aztec couple and evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites described as Armenoid by Wiercinski and Chan, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).
"Armenoid refers to negro or African people."
I give up! OK you win! "Armenoid" people named by anthropologists for inhabitants of Armenia refers to negro or African people. Western Turkey is part of Mesopotamia and Tres Zapotes is not in Central Americ, Mande were pygmy kushites! What's more is the Berbers spoke a Germanic language. Whatever you say! After all you are doctor!
I'm just sure as h_ _ _ not going to be driven crazy by arguing over it. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Let me point out: I own all of Wiercinski's papers and have been translating/posting them online since 2010 [including his anthropometric studies on Egypt]. Clyde has read none of them properly, doesn't understand them, and also distorts them.
Clyde's other errors/gaffes:
(a) "because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school)"
Erm no. It falls under "Yellow" [Mongoloid], nothing to do with "Blacks". Further he can't even spell it right, its Lapponoid not "Loponoid".
(b) "The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco."
What an epic fail. lol. The only racial type Clyde attributes to leukoderms, under Wiercinski is in fact a White-Yellow transitional, not white. Most 20th century Polish typologists did not consider Alpines to be "White", but a mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid [hence explaining the wider nasal index etc].
Can Clyde get anything right?
Only half of what you say is right and if you think these people found in Tlatilco that looked like this were not whta are normally called "black" and "negroids" than you are as crazy as the doctor you are cricizing. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Faheemdunkers: Let me point out: I own all of Wiercinski's papers and have been translating/posting them online since 2010 [including his anthropometric studies on Egypt]. Clyde has read none of them properly, doesn't understand them, and also distorts them.
Clyde's other errors/gaffes:
(a) "because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school)"
Erm no. It falls under "Yellow" [Mongoloid], nothing to do with "Blacks". Further he can't even spell it right, its Lapponoid not "Loponoid".
(b) "The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco."
What an epic fail. lol. The only racial type Clyde attributes to leukoderms, under Wiercinski is in fact a White-Yellow transitional, not white. Most 20th century Polish typologists did not consider Alpines to be "White", but a mixed Caucasoid-Mongoloid [hence explaining the wider nasal index etc].
Can Clyde get anything right?
Only half of what you say is right and if you think Wiercinski didn't find some of the crania of these people found in Tlatilco or what are normally called "black" and "negroids" than you are as crazy as the doctor you are criticizing.
BTW - the reason a few physical anthropologists sometimes confused "Laponoids", Armenoids Bushmen etc was because they were aware of the distinct mixture of cranial types found in ancient America and in the Scandinavian area. PERIOD! Many of the anthropologists believed these Neolithic peoples were "BUSHMEN", PERIOD! Which is why Diop called them out on this. Small gracile African "NEGROIDS" DID contribute to early neolithic European populations whether you like it or not many indistinguishable from neolithic Saharans and east Africans, which Brace reaffirmed in his findings. And most importantly because of the differences between the cranial evidence of ancient Mesopotamia which showed this type (the "Bushman" the dolichocephalic Mediterranean type" as opposed to the "monumental" remains or statuary/statuettes uncovered by archaelogists rperesenting the Diyala Plains "Armenoid" brachycephals there in Mesopotamia. These statuettes may in fact date to later times as suggested by Winters, and certainly don't represent the predominant dolichocephalic types of ancient Mesopotamia during Akkadian Sumerian or Subarian periods. THEY WERE LATE COMERS TO THE FERTILE CRESCENT.
The term "Armenoids" - i.e. Diyala Plains "Iranic" people - for the vast majority of anthropologists originally referred to those whom geneticist now refer to as J1 haplotype people - NOT NEGROES!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Tlatilco Dancer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] "As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks."
The AZTEC couple you posted if anything is a good example of the MIXTURE that went on in the Americas both in ancient times that's all - if they both have Armenoid and Negroid i.e Bushmanoid traits that DOES NOT mean Armenoids and Bushman ARE THE SAME PEOPLE!!!
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks."
Lol! I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about when you keep lumping Armenoids who according to all physical anthropologists in any book European large nosed brachycephalic WHITE SKINNED people with equatorial groups then again I have nothing more to say to you. They DO NOT use the term "Armenoid" for black Africans. Anyone can check right now and see that.
Please don't respond with such SILLY nonsense again cause you take away any integrity that you would have had from learning about the black physical types in Asia found BY EUROPEANS.
Indeed Dana. SO called "Armenoids" have long been viewed as "Caucasian" - quote:
”... distinguished three “short-headed (brachycephalic) southern Europeoids”: the Adriatic (or Dinaric) race, the Armenoid race, and the Pamiro-Ferganian race. These categories, which went back to Deniker and Ripleu at the turn of the twentieth century, place Caucasian peoples in the "Armenoid race." --Bruce David Baum The rise and fall of the Caucasian race 2006 Page 228
Yes, Zarahan - the vast majority of anthropologists simply thought of them as the early large nosed people stretching from Armenia to Iran. And it's ridiculous for anyone to suggest otherwise.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
_______________________________________________________ "It appeared that some of the skulls from Tlatilco, Cerro de las Mesas and Monte Alban (all pre-Classic sites in Mexico) show, to a different degree, a clear prevalence of the total Negroid pattern that has been evidenced by the use of two methods: a) multivariate distance analysis of average characteristics of individual fractions distinguished cranioscopically: b) analysis of frequency distributions of Mean Index of the position between combinations of racial varieties."
"The present author (A. Wiecinski 1972-1972b) has assessed positively the presence of Negroid pattern of traits on the basis of detailed multivariate analysis of a larger set of diagnostic, cranioscopic traits which differentiate between between Black, Yellow and White racial varieties."
- Dr. Andrzej Wiecinski address to the XLI International Congress of Americanist in Mexico (September 1974) ___________________________________________
Wiecinski- "it is no-where written by the present author that the Colossal Heads represent classic Negroid type but only it's strong influence in combination with components of the White or Yellow varieties"
"Transatlantic Hypothesis on the Peopling of Americas: Caucasoid and Negroids, Journal of Human Evolution 2, 1973 pp 75-92 Comas/ Wiecinski ______________________________________________
.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Vanishing population: Ethiopian Armenians
There is a small community of Armenians in Ethiopia, primarily in the Ethiopian capital Addis Ababa. Armenians had traded with Ethiopia from the first century AD.
The Armenian presence in Ethiopia is historic. On a religious basis, the Ethiopian Church and the Armenian Apostolic Church are both members of the Oriental Orthodox communion of churches alongside Coptic Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Eritrean Orthodox and Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (India) churches.
Armenians had traded with Ethiopia from as early as the first century AD.
Besides the obvious religious affiliation, there is also the story of the Arba Lijoch children coming to Ethiopia after the Armenian Genocide. "Arba Lijoch" were a group of 40 Armenian orphans who had escaped from the atrocities in Turkey, and were afterwards adopted by Haile Selassie I of Ethiopia, then Crown Prince Ras Tafari. He had met them while visiting the Armenian monastery in Jerusalem. They impressed him so much that he obtained permission from the Armenian Patriarchate of Jerusalem to adopt and bring them to Ethiopia, where he then arranged for them to receive musical instruction.
The Arba Lijoch arrived in Addis Ababa in 1924, and along with their bandleader Kevork Nalbandian became the first official orchestra of the nation. Nalbandian also composed the music for Marsh Teferi (words by Yoftehé Negusé), which was the Imperial National Anthem from 1930 to 1974.
Armenians have a much older presence in Ethiopia. Indeed one of the first recorded diplomatic missions to Europe from Ethiopia was led by Matthew the Armenian who traveled to Portugal and Rome at the request of the Dowager Empress Eleni of Ethiopia to appeal for aid against Islamic incursions into Ethiopia in the 16th Century.
The Armenian community was formed in the 7th century when many Armenians escaped the Arabian persecutions from Syria, Palestine and Egypt, immigrated to Ethiopia and settled in modern-day Desie city and built the St. Stepanos Monastery. Throughout time, many Armenians centralized and even formed their own weapons. In the Habesh chronicles, it is known as “Armenian Island”, which saw a downfall in the 16th century and the Armenians were forced to leave for other residential areas in Habeshstan to avoid forceful change of religion.
Armenians have played a huge role in the preservation of the Ethiopian Church’s cultural traditions, literature and economic development. In the 16th century, Armenian clergymen established schools and monasteries in the country, as well as translated the life of Saint Gregory the Illuminator, orations and other works. In 1539, by the order of King Libna Dingel, Ethiopia made the transition to the Armenian calendar. Armenian traders imported metals, lead, silk, cotton, glass, paints, cars to Ethiopia and exported wax, ivory, skin, coffee and more. Since the 19th century, the Armenians have supplied the army with artillery and other arms. An Armenian businessman is currently the owner of a large and most well-known rug store.
Armenians have received high awards by the Ethiopian government, including religious diplomat Mateos (the first Ethiopian ambassador to leave for Europe), Murad of Aleppo (the Ethiopian king’s ambassador and trade representative in India), diplomats Murad Junior and Yeghia Yenovk, the emperor’s advisers Kapro Vorgen and Miratch Vorgen.
In 1923, there was a 400-member Armenian community in Addis Ababa and the St. Mary Church. In 1928, Armenians had 12-14 homes in Dire Dava and the St. Minas Church.
In 1956, there were nearly 940 Armenians living in Ethiopia and most of them had a considerable impact on the country’s commerce and industry. However, after the 1973 revolution, Ethiopia entered a process of nationalization and many Armenians left the country.
There are spiritual pastors of the Armenian Holy Apostolic Church in Ethiopia and they are a part of Egypt’s diocese (the center is St. Gevorg Church in Addis Ababa).
The Gevorgov Armenian Seminary operates there and has a kindergarten.
According to recent data, there are nearly 80 Armenians living in Addis Ababa.
Posted by sero (Member # 19290) on :
There is something odd about this couple , it is as they have some sort of medical condition. Especially the body build of the man gives me the impression that he suffers from a mild form of Microcephaly. If it were so, I would presume that the Photographer was pursueing some sort of racist joke or hoax.
quote:Originally posted by sero: There is something odd about this couple , it is as they have some sort of medical condition. Especially the body build of the man gives me the impression that he suffers from a mild form of Microcephaly. If it were so, I would presume that the Photographer was pursueing some sort of racist joke or hoax.
They look exactly like many depictions of the ancient Mayans to me, - including or especially the heads and profiles - except Mayans were a bit darker obviously.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The first researcher to recognize that the Olmec writing was Mande was Leo Wiener, in Africa and the discovery of America. He recognized that the writing on the Tuxtla statuette was written in Mande characters.
Here we have three examples of Mande writing the first picture is writing from a modern site.
Picture 2 is writing on the Tuxtla statuette from Mexico.
Picture 3 writing during the chariot age.
Note the symbol made up of squares with dots inside.
.
.
Tuxtla Statuette
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You call the Tuareg script in this art "Mande" while the Tuareg call their script "Tifinagh. Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Are these the stones they are saying are no more than three feet high. In any case that thread is very interesting. I probably need to start going to that site instead of this one.
I'm wondernig what happened to the great stone heads found in West Africa that were posted in Van Sertima's journal were they proven to be fake or something? I haven't heard about them.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You have not read enough literature to understand how Black groups have been characterized.
Europeans have tried to make all the builders of great civilizations "white". These is why many groups who live in areas today formerly occupied by Blacks are designated as representation of the original Africoid groups they replaced. Any way, as originally noted Armenoid related to African and Black people, eventhough it is used today to relate to Turkomen and other groups living in modern Armenia, etc..
quote:Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: "As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks."
Lol! I am the one who doesn't know what I am talking about when you keep lumping Armenoids who according to all physical anthropologists in any book European large nosed brachycephalic WHITE SKINNED people with equatorial groups then again I have nothing more to say to you. They DO NOT use the term "Armenoid" for black Africans. Anyone can check right now and see that.
Please don't respond with such SILLY nonsense again cause you take away any integrity that you would have had from learning about the black physical types in Asia found BY EUROPEANS.
Indeed Dana. SO called "Armenoids" have long been viewed as "Caucasian" - quote:
”... distinguished three “short-headed (brachycephalic) southern Europeoids”: the Adriatic (or Dinaric) race, the Armenoid race, and the Pamiro-Ferganian race. These categories, which went back to Deniker and Ripleu at the turn of the twentieth century, place Caucasian peoples in the "Armenoid race." --Bruce David Baum The rise and fall of the Caucasian race 2006 Page 228
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Varous Central American people
Nahua (Aztec) man and woman, married couple, next to measuring stick, Zapotiltic, 1896
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You have not read enough literature to understand how Black groups have been characterized.
Europeans have tried to make all the builders of great civilizations "white"....
Indeed Dana. SO called "Armenoids" have long been viewed as "Caucasian" - quote:
”... distinguished three “short-headed (brachycephalic) southern Europeoids”: the Adriatic (or Dinaric) race, the Armenoid race, and the Pamiro-Ferganian race. These categories, which went back to Deniker and Ripleu at the turn of the twentieth century, place Caucasian peoples in the "Armenoid race." --Bruce David Baum The rise and fall of the Caucasian race 2006 Page 228 [/qb][/QUOTE][/qb][/QUOTE]"Europeans have tried to make all the builders of great civilizations 'white'."?
On the contrary I'm the one that academically specialized in researching the history of their theoretical nonsense and wrote about it. The fact that you quote so much from Wiercinski about the "Armenoid" type shows you are not interested in admitting the facts about what the majority of anthropologists thought about "Armenoids". It is you who are NOT familiar with the literature in anthropology. Wiercinski is not the one that labeled or created the "Armenoid" type and that Armenoid-Bushmen category is something he chose to make up. So why not instead of saving face and projecting your lack of familiarity with the issue onto me have the integrity to admit that you base a lot of your argument about who populated the ancient world on this idea that Armenoids were Armenoid-Bushmen and the latter were short black people were the same thing for anthropologists - thereby confusing the ancestors of modern Europeans with those of sub-Saharan AFRICANS.
Otherwise what you are perpetuating is A HOAX and it is no wonder people do not think much of what you write has any value. In fact I have seen a lot of discoveries and interesting points you have made that scholars could follow up on but probably wouldn't because of the illogical conceptual frameworks you create to form conclusions.
As far I am concerned you are a main reason why most people think the word "Afrocentrist" means "Afronut". Any other credentialed black or even non-black scholar interested in such subject matter is now at risk of being thought of as an Afronut even more so than previously due to your fraudulent and dishonest approach to interpreting source material.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Clyde is merely re-doing Van Sertima
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
Dr. Winters was probably doing this before Van Sertima but Dr. Van Sertima didn't agree with Winters linguistic methods - for obvious reasons.
BTW - stop trolling.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Wiercinski
Clyde, how would classify this person as per Wiercinski's categories?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Much of Clyde's argument remains intact even if you disregard "Armenian"
Wiercinski lists Dongolan (N. Sudan) as a higher percentage
Clyde there's a category "Subainuid" What is that?
____________________________________
OTHOMI AND OLMECS: INFLUENCE OF MANDE LANGUAGE GROUP ON ANCIENT MEXICAN CULTURE 1. 1. Journal of African Civilizations, Volume 1 Ivan Van Sertima Douglass College, Rutgers University, 1979 -
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde do you have location, date and source link for this?
Also what is the height and/or weight of this and location, link?
also you said:
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa. They spoke a Mande language. Evidence of this connection comes from the fact:
1) both groups used jade to make their tools.
jade tools in Africa? Do you have documentaion of this? Are you talking about Amazonite? I thought in Africa that is found in the South
Unfortunately people mistake i.e. MISIDENTIFY Jade for Amazonite, and Olmecs it appears didn't make much use of the latter. Just as Africans don't appear to have mined much Jade. So-called "African Jade" is really garnet.
I'm sure everyone can agree "some people just can't be trusted." Basing one's proofs on patently false information is not the way to prove Olmecs came to America. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
Wiercinski summarizes his research by offering the following "ethnogenetical hypotheses":
The indigenous rootstock of Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas consists of "Ainoid, Arctic, and Pacific racial elements". "A next migratory wave" brought in additional Pacific as well as "Laponoid" elements. "Some Chinese influence of Shang Period could penetrate Mesoamerica" "A strange transatlantic, more or less sporadic migration" brought Armenoid, Equatorial, and Bushmenoid elements.
Wiercinski, A. (1972a) "An anthropological study on the origin of 'Olmecs'",
________________________________________________
Clyde Wiercinski says the rootstock of Olmecs are a) Ainoid, Arctic, and Pacific
the next wave was
b) Pacific as well as "Laponoid" elements. element. Lapnoid" (Table 1, Wiercinski spelled Lap..etc )
(Definition of Lapanoid) Report of the Board of Regents of the Smmmithsonian Institution- 1913
the next wave was
c) Chinese influence of Shang Period
d) the last wave came across the Atlantic on ships: Armenoid, Equatorial, and Bushmenoid elements.
^^^Clyde Bushmenoid and Equatorial are at the bottom of the list in the last wave behind the Armenoid, none of them the original rootstock. Wiercinski thinks they are primarily of the Asiatic people thought to have crossed the bering strait
It also seems odd that both Amenians and Bushmen would know about the Olemcs and then sail over to Mexico.
Basically he says the Olmec were Asiatic Eastern European African Bushmen
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
There is no question the Olmecs, the people who founded civilization at Tres Zapotes, San Lorenzo and LaVenta were Africans as seen from the art, writing and religion.
Little has been done to analyze Olmec skeletons from these sites. But there is craniometric evidence supporting an African/negro for the vast majority of Olmec skeletons.
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).
Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).
To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnostic traits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind. In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco.
The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.
Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at Tlatilco.
The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.
Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people. First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.
Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.
Secondly, Rossum argues that Wiercinski was wrong about Blacks in ancient America because a comparison of modern native American skeletal material and the ancient Olmec skeletal material indicate no admixture. The study of Vargas and Rossum are flawed. They are flawed because the skeletal reference collection they used in their comparison of Olmec skeletal remains and modern Amerindian propulations because the Mexicans have been mixing with African and European populations since the 1500's. This has left many components of these Old World people within and among Mexican Amerindians.
The iconography of the classic Olmec and Mayan civilization show no correspondence in facial features. But many contemporary Maya and other Amerind groups show African characteristics and DNA. Underhill, et al (1996) found that the Mayan people have an African Y chromosome. This would explain the "puffy" faces of contemporary Amerinds, which are incongruent with the Mayan type associated with classic Mayan sculptures and stelas.
Wiercinski on the otherhand, compared his SRC to an unmixed European and African sample. This comparison avoided the use of skeletal material that is clearly mixed with Africans and Europeans, in much the same way as the Afro-American people he discussed in his essay who have acquired "white" features since mixing with whites due to the slave trade.
A. von Wuthenau (1980), and Wiercinski (1972b) highlight the numerous art pieces depicting the African or Black variety which made up the Olmec people. This re-anlysis of the Olmec skeletal meterial from Tlatilco and Cerro, which correctly identifies Armenoid, Dongolan and Loponoid as euphmisms for "Negro" make it clear that a substantial number of the Olmecs were Blacks support the art evidence and writing which point to an African origin for Olmec civilization.
In conclusion, the Olmec people were called Xi. They did not speak a Mixe-Zoque language they spoke a Mande language, which is the substratum language for many Mexican languages.
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa 3200 years ago.They came in boats which are depicted in the Izapa Stela no.5, in twelve migratory waves. These Proto-Olmecs belonged to seven clans which served as the base for the Olmec people.
Physical anthropologist use many terms to refer to the African type represented by Olmec skeletal remains including Armenoid, Dongolan, Loponoid and Equatorial. The evidence of African skeletons found at many Olmec sites, and their trading partners from the Old World found by Dr. Andrzej Wiercinski prove the cosmopolitan nature of Olmec society. This skeletal evidence explains the discovery of many African tribes in Mexico and Central America when Columbus discovered the Americas (de Quatrefages, 1836).
The skeletal material from Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas and evidence that the Olmecs used an African writing to inscribe their monuments and artifacts, make it clear that Africans were a predominant part of the Olmec population. These Olmecs constructed complex pyramids and large sculptured monuments weighing tons. The Maya during the Pre-Classic period built pyramids over the Olmec pyramids to disguise the Olmec origin of these pyramids.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
First big nosed European
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: .
Wiercinski summarizes his research by offering the following "ethnogenetical hypotheses":
The indigenous rootstock of Tlatilco and Cerro de las Mesas consists of "Ainoid, Arctic, and Pacific racial elements". "A next migratory wave" brought in additional Pacific as well as "Laponoid" elements. "Some Chinese influence of Shang Period could penetrate Mesoamerica" "A strange transatlantic, more or less sporadic migration" brought Armenoid, Equatorial, and Bushmenoid elements.
Wiercinski, A. (1972a) "An anthropological study on the origin of 'Olmecs'",
________________________________________________
Clyde Wiercinski says the rootstock of Olmecs are a) Ainoid, Arctic, and Pacific
the next wave was
b) Pacific as well as "Laponoid" elements. element. Lapnoid" (Table 1, Wiercinski spelled Lap..etc )
(Definition of Lapanoid) Report of the Board of Regents of the Smmmithsonian Institution- 1913
the next wave was
c) Chinese influence of Shang Period
d) the last wave came across the Atlantic on ships: Armenoid, Equatorial, and Bushmenoid elements.
^^^Clyde Bushmenoid and Equatorial are at the bottom of the list in the last wave behind the Armenoid, none of them the original rootstock. Wiercinski thinks they are primarily of the Asiatic people thought to have crossed the bering strait
It also seems odd that both Amenians and Bushmen would know about the Olemcs and then sail over to Mexico.
Basically he says the Olmec were Asiatic Eastern European African Bushmen
Bushmen were the original settlers of the Americas 30kya.
They sailed to the Americas long before the Olmec arrived in Mexico.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Unfortunately people mistake i.e. MISIDENTIFY Jade for Amazonite, and Olmecs it appears didn't make much use of the latter. Just as Africans don't appear to have mined much Jade. So-called "African Jade" is really garnet.
I'm sure everyone can agree "some people just can't be trusted." Basing one's proofs on patently false information is not the way to prove Olmecs came to America.
garnet and amazonite are different stones.
You love to make a fool of yourself. Africans in the Sahara exploited Amazonite, and jade in Mexico. They are both greenstones.
Amazonite was used in Saharan Africa
It was found at many sites in the ancient Sahara by archaeologists from the University of Chicago led by Sereno See:
They made adzes and pendants to name a few items in amazonite.
Why do you make stupid comments when I cite a source discussing the exploitation of greenstones by Africans?
You are really ignorant of African archaeology.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde is merely re-doing Van Sertima
False. My book discusses all the African civlizations that settled Pre-Columbian America.
Ivan only wrote about the Olmecs and Malians.
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Little has been done to analyze Olmec skeletons from these sites.
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons
^^^^ note second to last category "Lapanoid-Equatorial"
this is a skeletal type Wiercinski categorizes as a combination of Lapp people of Scandinavia and equatorial Africans Notice an Armenian type is also listed as well as a mixted type: "Armenoid-Bushman"
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study.
Report of the Board of Regents of the Smithsonian Institution- 1913
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Grenelle skeletons are simply Grimaldi negroes. These Blacks were also present in Switzerland.
Above is a picture of Cro-Magnon man, the first anatomically modern European. The first Europeans were the Bushman or Khoisan people.
This is a bushman or San.
Hottentot
As I mentioned earlier the Bushman created much of the early civilization of Eurasia. They left us numerous figurines showing their type.
Venus Figurines
The Bushman continue to carry this ancient form.
The Aurignacian civilization was founded by the Cro-Magnon people who originated in Africa. They took this culture to Western Europe across the Straits of Gibraltar. The Cro-Magnon people were probably Bushman/Khoi.
There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type"(p.289).
.
, They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element.
Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
The Boule and Vallois research makes it clear that the Bushman expanded across Africa on into Europe via Spain as the Grimaldi people. This makes it clear that the Bushman/Khoisan people were not isolated in South Africa. The Khoisan people carry the haplogroup N. The Hadza are Bushman they carry haplogroup N.
Cro-Magnon people carried haplogroup N:
quote:
Specific mtDNA sites outside HVRI were also analyzed (by amplification, cloning, and sequencing of the surrounding region) to classify more precisely the ancient sequences within the phylogenetic network of present-time mtDNAs (35, 36). Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: +7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the macrohaplogroupN,containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35). It is difficult to say whether the apparent evolutionary relationship between Paglicci-25 and Paglicci-12 and those populations is more than a coincidence. Indeed, the haplogroups to which the Cro-Magnon type sequences appear to belong are rare among modern samples, and therefore their frequencies are poorly estimated. However, genetic affinities between the first anatomically modern Europeans and current populations of the Near East make sense in the light of the likely routes of Upper Paleolithic human expansions in Europe, as documented in the archaeological record (37).
This suggest that haplogroup N was taken to Western Eurasia by the San people=Cro-Magnon.
This makes it clear, to me, that hg N in Africa is not the result of a back migration.
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Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: Unfortunately people mistake i.e. MISIDENTIFY Jade for Amazonite, and Olmecs it appears didn't make much use of the latter. Just as Africans don't appear to have mined much Jade. So-called "African Jade" is really garnet.
I'm sure everyone can agree "some people just can't be trusted." Basing one's proofs on patently false information is not the way to prove Olmecs came to America.
garnet and amazonite are different stones.
You love to make a fool of yourself. Africans in the Sahara exploited Amazonite, and jade in Mexico. They are both greenstones.
Amazonite was used in Saharan Africa
It was found at many sites in the ancient Sahara by archaeologists from the University of Chicago led by Sereno See:
They made adzes and pendants to name a few items in amazonite.
Why do you make stupid comments when I cite a source discussing the exploitation of greenstones by Africans?
You are really ignorant of African archaeology.
.
"lol! "They are both greenstones"?!Lol! Please stop projecting your pathology onto others, like you Afronuts like to do - when you feel denigrated. Greenstones which include many types of stones were mined all over the by different people, including the white ARMENOIDS.
LIKE I SAID THAT ISN'T THE WAY TO SHOW PROOF OLMECS WERE AFRICANS OR "ARMENOID_BUSHMAN".
I notice you had to repeat after me- garnet and amazonite are two different stones. Now you can repeat after me.
"I Clyde 'the Doctor' Winters am not an inappropriately sociopathic, unprofessional who doesn't know how to think logically and writes and speaks without thinking, reacts EMOTIONALLY and VINDICATIVELY, to make myself and my work look good."
I think that will help you stop insulting others' common sense with your "research" interpretations.
"You are really ignorant of African archaeology."
Not sure what that means since you are ignorant of what logic is. Is that the same as "'Mande' Kushites in ancient Egypt were 'pygmies'"?
or just you being your unceasingly unpleasant and ignorant self.
Whether I am ignorant of anything archaeologically, anthropologically-speaking you still need to write and prove your case with some semblance of reason - otherwise you become AN OBSTACLE to it. GOT IT!?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type"(p.289).
.
, They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element.
Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids. In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).
Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.
The Boule and Vallois research makes it clear that the Bushman expanded across Africa on into Europe via Spain as the Grimaldi people. This makes it clear that the Bushman/Khoisan people were not isolated in South Africa. The Khoisan people carry the haplogroup N. The Hadza are Bushman they carry haplogroup N.
^^^ This is a quote from Adolphe Bloch not Boule and Vallois.
Your quote is from Boule and Vallois talking about two particular skeletons different from others
in particular in the dolichocephalic character of their skull, in possessing a prognathism that was sometimes extreme, and a large grooved nose. This is a matter of partial atavism which in certain cases, as in the Neolithic Breton skull from Conguel, may attain to complete atavism. Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs.
However Boule and Vallois, Rene Bailly and Wiercinski never describe these people as "Laponoid"
I challenege you to find and mention of Laponoid being associated with "Negroid"
The arctic adapted Saami people are the Laponoids. They have the shortest limb ratios in the world. Africans are known to have the longest limb ratios. "Laponoid" in this sense is opposite of "Negroid" morphology
Furthermore the time periods are way off Grimaldi man is 25,000 years old Pre Olmec culture is less than 5,000 years old
And nowhere are Grimaldi described as Laponoid. They are opposite of Laponoid.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
_________________________________________________________________ LAPONOID Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
^Ironic how such a wide variety of ethnic people can be at such small place. But in Africa everybody has to conform the Eurocentric stereotype. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^Ironic how such a wide variety of ethnic people can be at such small place. But in Africa everybody has to conform the Eurocentric stereotype.
You are correct, Africa has a wide variety of ethnicities
In fact current anthropology argues that early Mesoamerican civilization was not comprised of the wide variety of etnicities listed by Wiercinski or Van Sertima. The first theory of an African connection was made much earlier by a Mexican explorer named José Maria Melgar y Serrano in 1869 who found the first colossal head in modern times.
^^^^ this picture shows mainly indigenous rural people of Mexico. people who have the least admixture and who resemble the Olmecs
They are least mixted with Spainiards and least mixed with former African slave ancestors (if any admixture)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Afro-Mexicans
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^^ this picture shows mainly indigenous rural people of Mexico. people who have the least admixture and who resemble the Olmecs
They are least mixted with Spainiards and least mixed with former African slave ancestors (if any admixture)
LOL. These people rural people are mixed with the rural African slaves and Black Mexicans who dominated Mexico before the coming of the Europeans.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
.
.
Some researchers claim that as many as seventy-five percent of the Mexicans have an African heritage (Green et al, 2000). Although this may be the case Cuevas (2004) says these Africans have been erased from history.
The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec. Due to the fact that 75% of the contemporary Mexicans have African genes you find that many of them look similar to the Olmecs whereas the ancient Maya did not.
In a discussion of the Mexican and African admixture in Mexico Lisker et al (1996) noted that the East Coast of Mexico had extensive admixture. The following percentages of African ancestry were found among East coast populations: Paraiso - 21.7%; El Carmen - 28.4% ;Veracruz - 25.6%; Saladero - 30.2%; and Tamiahua - 40.5%. Among Indian groups, Lisker et al (1996) found among the Chontal have 5% and the Cora .8% African admixture. The Chontal speak a Mayan language. According to Crawford et al. (1974), the mestizo population of Saltillo has 15.8% African ancestry, while Tlaxcala has 8% and Cuanalan 18.1%. The Olmecs built their civilization in the region of the current states of Veracruz and Tabasco. Now here again are the percentages of African ancestry according to Lisker et al (1996): Paraiso - 21.7% ; El Carmen - 28.4% ; Veracruz - 25.6% ; Saladero - 30.2% ; Tamiahua - 40.5%. Paraiso is in Tabasco and Veracruz is, of course, in the state of Veracruz. Tamiahua is in northern Veracruz. These areas were the first places in Mexico settled by the Olmecs. I'm not sure about Saladero and El Carmen.
Given the frequency of African admixture with the Mexicans a comparison of Olmec mask, statuettes and other artifacts show many resemblances to contemporary Mexican groups. As illustrated by the photo below.
Given the high admixture levels between Mexicans and negroes it is easy to find Mexicans who have African features as a result of the African heritage.
References:
Marco P. Hernadez Cuevas.(2004). African Mexicans and the discourse on Modern Mexico.Oxford: University Press.
R. Lisker et al.(1996). Genetic structure of autochthonous populations of Meso-america:Mexico. Am. J. Hum Biol 68:395-404.
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Mixed Amerindian .................................................. African Olmec Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Some researchers claim that as many as seventy-five percent of the Mexicans have an African heritage (Green et al, 2000). Although this may be the case Cuevas (2004) says these Africans have been erased from history.
The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec. Due to the fact that 75% of the contemporary Mexicans have African genes you find that many of them look similar to the Olmecs whereas the ancient Maya did not.
Clyde you have no idea what non-mixed indigenous Mexicans look like. All human beings have a certain amount of African ancestry Europeans included but it's the amount that differs.
As per Latin American nations such as Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Mexico, and Puerto Rico, Mexico was found to have the smallest amount of African admixture. Mexico has the second largest amount of Amerindian ancestry, topped by Ecuador.
it is estimated Mexicans are 50.1% Amerindian origin; 44.3%, European; and 5.6%, African.
Genome-wide patterns of population structure and admixture among Hispanic/Latino populations
Katarzyna Bryca,1, Christopher Velezb,1, Tatiana Karafetc, Andres Moreno-Estradaa,d, Andy Reynoldsa, Adam Autona,2, Michael Hammer, Carlos D. Bustamantea,d,3,4, and Harry Ostrerb,3,4 2010
However, significant population differences exist, with the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans showing the highest levels of African ancestry (41.8% and 23.6% African, SDs 16% and 12%), whereas Mexicans and Ecuadorians show the lowest levels of African ancestry (5.6% and 7.3% African, SDs 2% and 5%) and the highest Native American ancestries (50.1% and 38.8% Native American, SDs 13% and 10%). We also found extensive variation in European, Native American and African ancestry among individuals
Clyde, Mexico is only 5.6% African
_______________________________________________
^^^^bottom line
^^^^ If you added or subtracted 5,6% African ancestry to this person you could not tell the differrence
Guerrero has the largest degree of African admixture .
The Olmec heartland where the colossal heads were found (includes part of Veracruz region)
Veracruz Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^Ironic how such a wide variety of ethnic people can be at such small place. But in Africa everybody has to conform the Eurocentric stereotype.
You are correct, Africa has a wide variety of ethnicities
In fact current anthropology argues that early Mesoamerican civilization was not comprised of the wide variety of etnicities listed by Wiercinski or Van Sertima. The first theory of an African connection was made much earlier by a Mexican explorer named José Maria Melgar y Serrano in 1869 who found the first colossal head in modern times.
If I am correct, then how come you're always fetching on this fact.
When it's a known fact that Africa has the oldest population of mankind and Africa itself is "x times larger than Mexico". With a variety of climatic zones.
See, this is where your racist behavior shines best. By posting your Eurocentric racist African stereotypes.
And of course you haven't explained; how come such small place has such large variety of ethnicgroups. Looking completely different from one-another. Not even remotely close.
The irony however is that these Olmec head do comprise with your Eurocentric stereotype Africans.
You have literally tried anything for years and years to make non-stereotype looking Africans into a mixed people. Go figure!
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Some researchers claim that as many as seventy-five percent of the Mexicans have an African heritage (Green et al, 2000). Although this may be the case Cuevas (2004) says these Africans have been erased from history.
The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec. Due to the fact that 75% of the contemporary Mexicans have African genes you find that many of them look similar to the Olmecs whereas the ancient Maya did not.
Clyde you have no idea what non-mixed indigenous Mexicans look like. All human beings have a certain amount of African ancestry Europeans included but it's the amount that differs.
As per Latin American nations such as Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Mexico, and Puerto Rico, Mexico was found to have the smallest amount of African admixture. Mexico has the second largest amount of Amerindian ancestry, topped by Ecuador.
it is estimated Mexicans are 50.1% Amerindian origin; 44.3%, European; and 5.6%, African.
Genome-wide patterns of population structure and admixture among Hispanic/Latino populations
Katarzyna Bryca,1, Christopher Velezb,1, Tatiana Karafetc, Andres Moreno-Estradaa,d, Andy Reynoldsa, Adam Autona,2, Michael Hammer, Carlos D. Bustamantea,d,3,4, and Harry Ostrerb,3,4 2010
However, significant population differences exist, with the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans showing the highest levels of African ancestry (41.8% and 23.6% African, SDs 16% and 12%), whereas Mexicans and Ecuadorians show the lowest levels of African ancestry (5.6% and 7.3% African, SDs 2% and 5%) and the highest Native American ancestries (50.1% and 38.8% Native American, SDs 13% and 10%). We also found extensive variation in European, Native American and African ancestry among individuals
Clyde, Mexico is only 5.6% African
_______________________________________________
^^^^bottom line
^^^^ If you added or subtracted 5,6% African ancestry to this person you could not tell the differrence
Guerrero has the largest degree of African admixture .
The Olmec heartland where the colossal heads were found (includes part of Veracruz region)
Veracruz
I've heard that the African population in Mexico was very small and was absorbed by the main population. The European sexbased input has more of a founder effect. Since European men used to rape Amerindian females,"a lot"! And how can you be so sure, the people you picture spam don't have any African admixture?
Besides that Latin America and the Caribbean had the largest input of Trans Atlantic slaves. Up to 90%!
Black in Latin America E03, Mexico and Peru: The Black Grandma in the Closet
When I am in Ethiopia I'm going to document this myself.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Granted, all people my have some African ancestry but they don't have African features. You can not just "white out" evidence that most Mexicans have African ancestry. Moreover, you can't just take away 75% heritage and make it 5.6 without explaining what happened to the other 69%. Some researchers claim that as many as seventy-five percent of the Mexicans have an African heritage (Green et al, 2000). Although this may be the case Cuevas (2004) says these Africans have been erased from history.
The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec. Due to the fact that 75% of the contemporary Mexicans have African genes you find that many of them look similar to the Olmecs whereas the ancient Maya did not.
In a discussion of the Mexican and African admixture in Mexico Lisker et al (1996) noted that the East Coast of Mexico had extensive admixture. The following percentages of African ancestry were found among East coast populations: Paraiso - 21.7%; El Carmen - 28.4% ;Veracruz - 25.6%; Saladero - 30.2%; and Tamiahua - 40.5%. Among Indian groups, Lisker et al (1996) found among the Chontal have 5% and the Cora .8% African admixture. The Chontal speak a Mayan language. According to Crawford et al. (1974), the mestizo population of Saltillo has 15.8% African ancestry, while Tlaxcala has 8% and Cuanalan 18.1%. The Olmecs built their civilization in the region of the current states of Veracruz and Tabasco. Now here again are the percentages of African ancestry according to Lisker et al (1996): Paraiso - 21.7% ; El Carmen - 28.4% ; Veracruz - 25.6% ; Saladero - 30.2% ; Tamiahua - 40.5%. Paraiso is in Tabasco and Veracruz is, of course, in the state of Veracruz. Tamiahua is in northern Veracruz. These areas were the first places in Mexico settled by the Olmecs. I'm not sure about Saladero and El Carmen.
Given the frequency of African admixture with the Mexicans a comparison of Olmec mask, statuettes and other artifacts show many resemblances to contemporary Mexican groups. As illustrated by the photo below.
Given the high admixture levels between Mexicans and negroes it is easy to find Mexicans who have African features as a result of the African heritage.
References:
Marco P. Hernadez Cuevas.(2004). African Mexicans and the discourse on Modern Mexico.Oxford: University Press.
R. Lisker et al.(1996). Genetic structure of autochthonous populations of Meso-america:Mexico. Am. J. Hum Biol 68:395-404.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Clyde you have no idea what non-mixed indigenous Mexicans look like. All human beings have a certain amount of African ancestry Europeans included but it's the amount that differs.
As per Latin American nations such as Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Mexico, and Puerto Rico, Mexico was found to have the smallest amount of African admixture. Mexico has the second largest amount of Amerindian ancestry, topped by Ecuador.
it is estimated Mexicans are 50.1% Amerindian origin; 44.3%, European; and 5.6%, African.
Genome-wide patterns of population structure and admixture among Hispanic/Latino populations
Katarzyna Bryca,1, Christopher Velezb,1, Tatiana Karafetc, Andres Moreno-Estradaa,d, Andy Reynoldsa, Adam Autona,2, Michael Hammer, Carlos D. Bustamantea,d,3,4, and Harry Ostrerb,3,4 2010
However, significant population differences exist, with the Dominicans and Puerto Ricans showing the highest levels of African ancestry (41.8% and 23.6% African, SDs 16% and 12%), whereas Mexicans and Ecuadorians show the lowest levels of African ancestry (5.6% and 7.3% African, SDs 2% and 5%) and the highest Native American ancestries (50.1% and 38.8% Native American, SDs 13% and 10%). We also found extensive variation in European, Native American and African ancestry among individuals
Clyde, Mexico is only 5.6% African
_______________________________________________
^^^^bottom line
^^^^ If you added or subtracted 5,6% African ancestry to this person you could not tell the differrence
Guerrero has the largest degree of African admixture .
The Olmec heartland where the colossal heads were found (includes part of Veracruz region)
Veracruz
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
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There is no coincidence that most Blacks in Mexico are spread from Guerrero into Belize and Guatamala. They live here because it was in these areas where the pre-Olmec, Blacks lived before the so-called Amerindians entered Mexico.
The Olmecs were not the first Africans to create a civilization in Mexico. These Africans came from the ancient Sahara and West Africa.
Africans founded many of the earliest civilizations in the New World. We do not know when these Blacks arrived in the Americas. Scientists theorize that over 5000 years ago a group of African settlers sailing along the West African coast, in their papyrus trading vessels were caught in a storm and drifted aimlessly out to sea. In the Atlantic ocean they were captured by the South Equatorial current and carried across the Atlantic towards the Americas.
We can assume that due to the ability of these explorers to navigate by the stars they were probably able to make a return trip to West Africa. Much of West Africa 5000 years ago was unoccupied. This means that the populations that later moved into West Africa were living in Middle Africa,and the Sahara. These people due to a different climate in the Sahara at this time traveled from community to community by sea. It seems logical to assume that one of these Paleo-African groups travelled down the long extinct rivers of Middle Africa and sailed out into the Atlantic Ocean and was carried to the Americas by the powerful currents found in the Atlantic Ocean.
Mexico and Central America were centers of African civilization 5000 years ago. In Belize , around 2500 B.C., we see evidence of agriculture. The iconography of this period depicts Africoids. And at Izapa in 1358 B.C., astronomer-priests invented the first American calendar. In addition numerous sculptures of blacks dating to the 2nd millennium B.C, have been found at La Venta, Chiapas, Teotihuacan and Tlatilco.
Chiapas Blacks
The African voyagers to the New World came here in papyrus boats. A stone stela from Izapa, Chiapas in southern Mexico show the boats these Africans came in when they sailed to the Americas. These boats were carried across the Atlantic ocean to Mexico and Brazil, by the North Equatorial current which meets the Canaries Current off the Senegambian coast. It is interesting to note that papyrus boats are still being built in West Africa today.
The earliest culture founded by Blacks in Mexico was the Mokaya tradition. The Mokaya tradition was situated on the Pacific coast of Mexico in the Soconusco region. Sedentary village life began as early as 2000BC. By 1700-1500 BC we see many African communities in the Mazatan region. This is called the Barra phase or Ocos complex.
During the Barra phase these Blacks built villages amd made beautiful ceramic vessels often with three legs. They also made a large number of effigy vessels.
The figurines of the Ocos are the most significant evidence for Blacks living in the area during this period. The female figurine from Aquiles Serdan is clearly that of an African woman. Ocos Female
The Blacks of the Mokaya traditions were not Olmec. The civilization of the Mokaya traditions began 700 years before the Olmec arrived in Mexico.
In the Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership (1995), (ed.) by Carolyn Tate, on page 65, we find the following statement“Olmec culture as far as we know seems to have no antecedents; no material models remain for its monumental constructions and sculptures and the ritual acts captured in small objects”./b]M.
Coe (1989), observed that[b] “on the contrary, the evidence although negative, is that the Olmec style of art, and Olmec engineering ability suddenly appeared full fledged from about 1200 BC”.
Mary E. Pye, writing in Olmec Archaeology in Mesoamerica (2000), (ed.) by J.E. Cark and M.E. Pye,makes it clear after a discussion of the pre-Olmec civilizations of the Mokaya tradition, that these cultures contributed nothing to the rise of the Olmec culture. Pye wrote “The Mokaya appear to have gradually come under Olmec influence during Cherla times and to have adopted Olmec ways. We use the term olmecization to describe the processes whereby independent groups tried to become Olmecs, or to become like the Olmecs” (p.234). Pye makes it clear that it was around 1200 BC that Olmec civilization rose in Mesoamerica. She continues “Much of the current debate about the Olmecs concerns the traditional mother culture view. For us this is still a primary issue. Our data from the Pacific coast show that the mother culture idea is still viable in terms of cultural practices. The early Olmecs created the first civilization in Mesoamerica; they had no peers, only contemporaries” (pp.245-46).
Cherla There continues to be no evidence that Olmec civilization originated in Mexico. R.A. Diehl, in The Olmecs (Thames & Hudson, 2004) wrote that “The identity of these first Olmecs remain a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 B.C. to resolve the issue” (p.25).
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The God Ekchuah
Note how the Mayan chief painted himself Black to welcome Ekchuah. Also look at how the leading personage before the Black travler kneels.
Vase from Chama Guatemala
Given the discovery of numerous Olmec artifacts depicting Blacks begs a number of questions: “Were there Black or African people in ancient America? Do the African heads of the Olmec confirm an African presence in Mexico or do they show present-day Mayan people? What is the relation between contemporary Black Costa Chicas (negrocostachicanos) and Blacks depicted in Olmec artifacts? The idea of mestizaje was developed by Jose Vascoucelos. Mr. Vascouselos became Minister of Education in 1921. During his tenure Black heroes of Mexican history were whitened as Vascoucelos pursued a policy of homogenization of Mexicans (Cuevas, 2004). In 1946, Black Mexicans were rediscovered by Aguirre Beltran (1972) when he found the Blacks in Costa Chica. This was a rediscovery because the idea of mestizaje stressed the idea that there were only Mexicans, and not Amerindians, Whites or Blacks. The only problem with this idea was that Black Mexicans became associated with poverty and ignorance. These Blacks also experience much discrimination throughout Mexico, and much hostility in Costa Chica (Vaugh, 2005a, 2005b).
The Negrocostachicanos claim that they have never been slaves and are indigenous to Guererro and Oaxaca on the Pacific coast of Mexico. The 1990 Mexican census recorded 66,000 Negrocostachicanos. These Mexicans live in African style huts and practice rituals which may be of African origin (Vaugh,2005a). Most researchers believe that the Negrocostachicanos are decendants of marrons or runaway slaves (Aguirre Beltran, 1972; Vaugh,2005a). But none of the Blacks of Costa Chica have songs about slavery and its hardships (Baja.com.2005).The Negrocostachicanos say “they are not they insist, the descendants of African slaves. There was never slavery here, even in ancient times” (Baja.com,2005). Bobby Vaugh (2005b) noted that he found “no consciousness of slavery among people in Costa Chica” (p.5). Another researcher, noted that “Housewives in San Jose Estancia Grande and Santiago Tapextla [in Costa Chica] say their ancestors did not come from Africa, that their families have always lived right here” (Baja.com, 2005, p.6). The fact that the Negrocostachicanos claim that they were never slaves has troubled some researchers who believe that the only Blacks in Mexico came to the New World with the Spanish. Although this is the popular view concerning the origin of Blacks in Mexico, this view may be Eurocentric because the archaeological and historical evidence indicate that Blacks were already in Mexico when the Spanish made there way to Mexico.
Leo Wiener in the African Discovery of America (1922), provides a detailed account of the Black gods of Mexico in the third volume in this series of books. Wiener outlined that the Blacks were traveling merchants in Mexico selling cocao, feathers and other products. The major Black gods of the Mexicans was Quetzalcoalt, and the Mayan gods L and M, Xaman and Ekchuah these gods are depicted in the Codex Troano(Wiener, 1921, [vol.3] p.258). Sahagun tells us that Ekchuah was also the god of the Amanteca. The Nahuatl term Amanteca, was probably the name of the Mandinka or Mandinga people who were the foundation of the Olmec people (Winters, 2005).
Ekchuah and the Mayan God M, was the god of merchants and warriors. He is also depicted in the Codex Cortesianus and 17 times in the Madrid Codex.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Gulf coast was settled by the Mande speaking Olmecs. Although the Olmecs probably (re)introduced the art of building pyramids to Mexico, it was in areas dominated by pre-Olmec Blacks, like Guatemala and Belize where pyramids in Mexico, were first built, and are the oldest.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the Olmec played a prominent role in the rise of Mayan civilization. In Guatemala, we find jaguar stucco masks on the pyramids of EI Mirador Structure 34, Cerros Structure 5C-2nd, E-VII Sub at Takalik Uxaxatun, and Structure 5D 22-2nd at Tikal. These jaguar masks are identical to Olmec jaguar masks: Stela C Tres Zapotes, the La Venta Sarcophagus, and Monument 15 La Venta. In this presentation, we test the hypothesis that there is a correlation between the pre-Classic Guatemalan writing and the (Epi)Olmec writing of Mexico. The purpose of this project is to compare these symbols to fully decipher the inscriptions of Guatemala, and to learn more about the religious and political system of the pre-Classic Guatemalans.
Most researchers have assumed that this pyramid was built by the Maya. Although this is the popular view, this pyramid was probably built by the Olmec. And the Maya probably built a new pyramid over the original Olmec pyramid.
Under many pyramids found in Guatemala and Belize we find stucco-modeled jaguar pyramids. These pyramids with jaguar mask and large earrings predate all the Mayan pyramids. They are found at Uaxactun, Tikal and Cerros.
Most researchers have assumed that this pyramid was built by the Maya. Although this is the popular view, this pyramid was probably built by the Olmec. And the Maya probably built a new pyramid over the original Olmec pyramid.
Under many pyramids found in Guatemala and Belize we find stucco-modeled jaguar pyramids. These pyramids with jaguar mask and large earrings predate all the Mayan pyramids. They are found at Uaxactun, Tikal and Cerros.
We see new Black civilizations rise along the Pacific coast after 500 BC. Between 500-200 BC Guatemala was a center of Black civilizations. Some of these civilization include San Bartolo, Izapa and Kaminaljuyu. The founders of these civilizations were probably the ancestors of the Black Costa Chicas the negrocostachicanos.
The Negrocostachicanos are responsible for the pre-Classic pyramids the Maya built their pyramids upon. They left us numerous inscriptions on artifacts from Izapa, San Bartolo and Kuinaljuyu they may provide us with keen insight into their history and civilization.
Stone head From San Bartolo
The San Bartolo, Guatemala murals are very beautiful they were discovered by William Saturno of the University of New Hampshire. These murals were found in an unexcavated pyramid. Entering a looter’s trench Dr. Saturno dug into the pyramid and discovered the murals. Much of the mural was destroyed when the Maya built another pyramid over the original structure.
King Kali
The San Bartolo pyramid has two murals. One of the murals is of a procession of people on a boat . The other mural is of King Tali, sitting on his pyramid.
On the boat there are a number of figures. Moving from right to left we see four standing figures nearest the end of the boat. These figures are carrying bundles raised above their heads.
In front of these figures we see several symbols. These symbols provide context to the procession.
There are a number of female figures on the boat. The woman near the Corn God has writing symbols on their faces. The kneeling figure holding the vase on the far left side toward the end has the words gyo ti “righteous cult specialist” on her cheek.
The standing female figure in front of the last three symbols placed in front of the person carrying gifts has the words ti i “she is righteous” written on her cheek.
Another Black chiefdoms was situated at Kaminaljuyu. Mike provides an interesting monument from this site.
It is clear that Blacks along the Pacific coast the Negrocostachicanos are descendants of the original Africans who lived in Mexico, Belize and Guatemala for thousands of years. The Blacks along the Gulf are mainly of Olmec and African Slave origin.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
An African religious / political tradition transferred from Africa to Mexico
The Jaguar
In Africa the leaders wore the leapard cloak, while in the Americas it was the jaguar.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Using the Olmec and Mayan languages you can read many Mayan inscriptions.
After Neil Steede and I deciphered the ‘Salazer Brick’ from Comalcalco made it clear that you can read the Mayan script based on Olmec—while reading the inscriptions in the Mayan language. To test this theory I deciphered some the Ek-Chuah Black Trader god from the Tro-Crotensiana Codex.
It is interesting to note that the boys drilling are depicted as Blacks in the Dresden and Tro-Cotesianus Codexes.
To read the Mayan inscriptions I break down the Olmec syllabic signs which make up the Mayan hierogyphs. Once these signs are given a phonetic value I read them in Yucatec Maya.
Below we will discuss some of these inscriptions.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Big nose or Armenoid features of the Black Mexicans probably go back to the Cherlas and Ocos.
Cherla
Aztec
Ocos
. Ocos Female Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Olmec and Mayan writing systems originated in Africa.
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To read the Mayan inscriptions I break down the Olmec syllabic signs which make up the Mayan hierogyphs. Once these signs are given a phonetic value I read them in Yucatec Maya.
The San Bartolo pyramid has two murals. One of the murals is of a procession of people on a boat . The other mural is of King Tali, sitting on his pyramid.
Posted by dana marniche (Member # 13149) on :
There is much evidence provided in this post by Dr. Winters as their had been previously provided by Dr. Van Sertima a partly indigenous American and others that the people who inspired the Olmec culture in Mexico and perhaps earlier American ones and certain later ones were of African origin. That includes material evidence that many (not including myself) would consider the most crucial - the genetic testimony.
If there is more evidence uncovered such as the below than it will become nearly impossible for individuals to deny the obvious.
"The variation of Indian ancestry among the studied Indians shows in general a higher proportion in the more isolated groups, except for the Cora, who are as isolated as the Huichol and have not only a lower frequency but also a certain degree of black admixture. The black admixture is difficult to explain because the Cora resides in a mountainous region away from the west coast." R. Lisker et al.(1996). Genetic structure of autochthonous populations of Meso-america:Mexico. Am. J. Hum Biol 68:395-404
Genetic evidence has also led me to wonder again if there not some ancient connection of Africans to early ancestors of North American Great Plains natives particularly the still very dark-skinned lesser mixed natives in the northern states like Montana and Wisconsin, etc. This was of course suggested by Wiercinski and others many years ago.
The Great Plains people like the Sioux or Oglala and Blackfeet etc. appear to be the same people that were found to have some connection with the Amarna rulers in the dnatribes study. In person many of these people are still as dark as Africans.
I have a Time Life book at home and it shows that before the 19th century many Indian tribes from the east the the West coast looked the same way and had the same nearly African or blackish complexion.
I am sure when people start making the connection with Africans with regard to these people they will find the root of many of the seeming far-flung rumours or alternative theories out there saying Hebrews and Phoenicians came to America.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
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The Negrocostachicanos claim that they have never been slaves and are indigenous to Guererro and Oaxaca on the Pacific coast of Mexico. The 1990 Mexican census recorded 66,000 Negrocostachicanos. These Mexicans live in African style huts and practice rituals which may be of African origin (Vaugh,2005a). Most researchers believe that the Negrocostachicanos are decendants of marrons or runaway slaves (Aguirre Beltran, 1972; Vaugh,2005a). But none of the Blacks of Costa Chica have songs about slavery and its hardships (Baja.com.2005).The Negrocostachicanos say “they are not they insist, the descendants of African slaves. There was never slavery here, even in ancient times” (Baja.com,2005). Bobby Vaugh (2005b) noted that he found “no consciousness of slavery among people in Costa Chica” (p.5). Another researcher, noted that “Housewives in San Jose Estancia Grande and Santiago Tapextla [in Costa Chica] say their ancestors did not come from Africa, that their families have always lived right here” (Baja.com, 2005, p.6). The fact that the Negrocostachicanos claim that they were never slaves has troubled some researchers who believe that the only Blacks in Mexico came to the New World with the Spanish. Although this is the popular view concerning the origin of Blacks in Mexico, this view may be Eurocentric because the archaeological and historical evidence indicate that Blacks were already in Mexico when the Spanish made there way to Mexico.
Clyde when you say "Mixed blood" or "Mixed Amerindian" here I thought you meant mixed with Africans brought over by the Spanish but you seem to mean Amerindian mixed with Olmec. You're saying the above people are part Olmec right?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Negrocostachicanos say “they are not they insist, the descendants of African slaves. There was never slavery here, even in ancient times”
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec.
Clyde I'm not understanding you here when you say the admixture of Africans and Mexicans makes it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec don't you mean the admixture of African Olmecs and Amerindians makes it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec??
Posted by Troll Patrol (Member # 18264) on :
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2005 Nov 1;102(44):15942-7. Epub 2005 Oct 21.
Support from the relationship of genetic and geographic distance in human populations for a serial founder effect originating in Africa.
Source Department of Biological Sciences, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA. sohini@stanford.edu
Abstract Equilibrium models of isolation by distance predict an increase in genetic differentiation with geographic distance. Here we find a linear relationship between genetic and geographic distance in a worldwide sample of human populations, with major deviations from the fitted line explicable by admixture or extreme isolation. A close relationship is shown to exist between the correlation of geographic distance and genetic differentiation (as measured by F(ST)) and the geographic pattern of heterozygosity across populations. Considering a worldwide set of geographic locations as possible sources of the human expansion, we find that heterozygosities in the globally distributed populations of the data set are best explained by an expansion originating in Africa and that no geographic origin outside of Africa accounts as well for the observed patterns of genetic diversity. Although the relationship between F(ST) and geographic distance has been interpreted in the past as the result of an equilibrium model of drift and dispersal, simulation shows that the geographic pattern of heterozygosities in this data set is consistent with a model of a serial founder effect starting at a single origin. Given this serial-founder scenario, the relationship between genetic and geographic distance allows us to derive bounds for the effects of drift and natural selection on human genetic variation.
The Negrocostachicanos claim that they have never been slaves and are indigenous to Guererro and Oaxaca on the Pacific coast of Mexico. The 1990 Mexican census recorded 66,000 Negrocostachicanos. These Mexicans live in African style huts and practice rituals which may be of African origin (Vaugh,2005a). Most researchers believe that the Negrocostachicanos are decendants of marrons or runaway slaves (Aguirre Beltran, 1972; Vaugh,2005a). But none of the Blacks of Costa Chica have songs about slavery and its hardships (Baja.com.2005).The Negrocostachicanos say “they are not they insist, the descendants of African slaves. There was never slavery here, even in ancient times” (Baja.com,2005). Bobby Vaugh (2005b) noted that he found “no consciousness of slavery among people in Costa Chica” (p.5). Another researcher, noted that “Housewives in San Jose Estancia Grande and Santiago Tapextla [in Costa Chica] say their ancestors did not come from Africa, that their families have always lived right here” (Baja.com, 2005, p.6). The fact that the Negrocostachicanos claim that they were never slaves has troubled some researchers who believe that the only Blacks in Mexico came to the New World with the Spanish. Although this is the popular view concerning the origin of Blacks in Mexico, this view may be Eurocentric because the archaeological and historical evidence indicate that Blacks were already in Mexico when the Spanish made there way to Mexico.
Clyde when you say "Mixed blood" or "Mixed Amerindian" here I thought you meant mixed with Africans brought over by the Spanish but you seem to mean Amerindian mixed with Olmec. You're saying the above people are part Olmec right?
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Negrocostachicanos say “they are not they insist, the descendants of African slaves. There was never slavery here, even in ancient times”
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: The admixture of Africans and Mexicans make it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec.
Clyde I'm not understanding you here when you say the admixture of Africans and Mexicans makes it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec don't you mean the admixture of African Olmecs and Amerindians makes it impossible to compare pictures of contemporary Mexicans and the Olmec??
LOL. You pretend to be stupid, and not understand what I am saying.
I mean exactly what I said. Contemporary Mexicans have ancestors who mixed with native Black Mexicans and African slaves.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by dana marniche: There is much evidence provided in this post by Dr. Winters as their had been previously provided by Dr. Van Sertima a partly indigenous American and others that the people who inspired the Olmec culture in Mexico and perhaps earlier American ones and certain later ones were of African origin. That includes material evidence that many (not including myself) would consider the most crucial - the genetic testimony.
If there is more evidence uncovered such as the below than it will become nearly impossible for individuals to deny the obvious.
"The variation of Indian ancestry among the studied Indians shows in general a higher proportion in the more isolated groups, except for the Cora, who are as isolated as the Huichol and have not only a lower frequency but also a certain degree of black admixture. The black admixture is difficult to explain because the Cora resides in a mountainous region away from the west coast." R. Lisker et al.(1996). Genetic structure of autochthonous populations of Meso-america:Mexico. Am. J. Hum Biol 68:395-404
Genetic evidence has also led me to wonder again if there not some ancient connection of Africans to early ancestors of North American Great Plains natives particularly the still very dark-skinned lesser mixed natives in the northern states like Montana and Wisconsin, etc. This was of course suggested by Wiercinski and others many years ago.
The Great Plains people like the Sioux or Oglala and Blackfeet etc. appear to be the same people that were found to have some connection with the Amarna rulers in the dnatribes study. In person many of these people are still as dark as Africans.
I have a Time Life book at home and it shows that before the 19th century many Indian tribes from the east the the West coast looked the same way and had the same nearly African or blackish complexion.
I am sure when people start making the connection with Africans with regard to these people they will find the root of many of the seeming far-flung rumours or alternative theories out there saying Hebrews and Phoenicians came to America.
If you are interested in the genetic relationship between Africans and Plains Indians check out the following article.
Is Native American R Y-Chromosome of African Origin?
Controversey surrounds the phylogeography and origin of the R haplotype among Native Americans. Some researchers have suggested that Europeans spread this haplotype among Native Americans. The purpose of this study was to determine the origin of the R-M173 y-chromosome among Native Americans . It is the third most frequent y-chromosome possessed by Native Americans. Native Americans with the highest frequency of R-M173 haplotypes like the Ojibwa and Seminoles mated frequently with African males. Our findings indicate that the African male, Native American female pattern of mating in the United States probably led to the introduction and spread of R-M173 among Native Americans during slavery.
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: LOL. You pretend to be stupid, and not understand what I am saying.
I mean exactly what I said. Contemporary Mexicans have ancestors who mixed with native Black Mexicans and African slaves.
. [/QB]
You never made clear what your personal opinion was.
You posted the opinion of other people:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Negrocostachicanos claim that they have never been slaves and are indigenous to Guererro and Oaxaca on the Pacific coast of Mexico. The 1990 Mexican census recorded 66,000 Negrocostachicanos. These Mexicans live in African style huts and practice rituals which may be of African origin (Vaugh,2005a). Most researchers believe that the Negrocostachicanos are decendants of marrons or runaway slaves (Aguirre Beltran, 1972; Vaugh,2005a). But none of the Blacks of Costa Chica have songs about slavery and its hardships (Baja.com.2005).The Negrocostachicanos say “they are not they insist, the descendants of African slaves. There was never slavery here, even in ancient times” (Baja.com,2005). Bobby Vaugh (2005b) noted that he found “no consciousness of slavery among people in Costa Chica” (p.5). Another researcher, noted that “Housewives in San Jose Estancia Grande and Santiago Tapextla [in Costa Chica] say their ancestors did not come from Africa, that their families have always lived right here” (Baja.com, 2005, p.6). The fact that the Negrocostachicanos claim that they were never slaves has troubled some researchers who believe that the only Blacks in Mexico came to the New World with the Spanish. Although this is the popular view concerning the origin of Blacks in Mexico, this view may be Eurocentric because the archaeological and historical evidence indicate that Blacks were already in Mexico when the Spanish made there way to Mexico.
When you first posted that multi-picture entitled "Olmecs and Mixted Blood Mexicans" in the past I originally thought you meant to say the opposite, that moderns Mexicans who looked liked Olmecs was a coincidence because of African slaves brought by the Europeans and they were not really related to the the Africans had come by ship some people believe happened in ancient times
Then on reading this text one could easily think you meant the opposite, their African ancestry was ancient Olmec African, not slave African and that you as an Afrocentric might believe the Negrocostachicanos claim that they were never slaves and to do so would be Eurocentric.
But apparently you think they have both admixture with ancient Olmecs from Africa and later African slaves.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
It is easy to be confused about the situation in ancient Mexico because of the myths taught by Eurocentrics. Anyone looking at the Pre-Classic Mexican cultures and the Ocos and Cherla, the orginal Mexicans were negroid.
Moreover, the art testifies to the late introduction of Amerindians into Mexico.
The earliest culture founded by Blacks in Mexico was the Mokaya tradition. The Mokaya tradition was situated on the Pacific coast of Mexico in the Soconusco region. Sedentary village life began as early as 2000BC. By 1700-1500 BC we see many African communities in the Mazatan region. This is called the Barra phase or Ocos complex.
During the Barra phase these Blacks built villages amd made beautiful ceramic vessels often with three legs. They also made a large number of effigy vessels.
The figurines of the Ocos are the most significant evidence for Blacks living in the area during this period. The female figurine from Aquiles Serdan is clearly that of an African woman. Ocos Female
The Blacks of the Mokaya traditions were not Olmec. The civilization of the Mokaya traditions began 700 years before the Olmec arrived in Mexico.
Cherla
As a result, we find that the Cherlas, Ocos and Olmec did not resemble the Maya in Classic Mayan time.
The Olmec people and other members of ancient Mexico did not look like modern day Mexican Indians. The Olmec were Blacks from Africa. They spoke the Mande language.
The Chama vase provides iconographic—eyewitness-evidence that the Classic Maya, did not resemble the Black Mexicans.
The clear differentiation of the Mayan and Black Mexicans as evidenced by the Chama Vase, makes it clear that the main period when Amerindians began to acquire African ancestry was during the period of slavery.
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It was the destruction of the Mayan civilization and slave trade that make it appear that many contemporary Mexicans look like the Olmecs, while the classic Maya looked nothing like the Olmec.
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^^ for father's day
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
_________^^^^ notice the color of the feet and hands
chin and color around the eye reveals the actual skin tone
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Yea look at the face. They are different.
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The feet of the Mayan and Black man are different colors. you can clearly see above that the feet of the Negro is much darker.
Look at the photo below
You can see that the chin of the Mayan figure is the same color as his feet. The chin of the Negro is black. .
In the picture above you can see the feet of the Mayan and Negro are totally different. Since the differences in color are evident I have to assume you are trying to decieve the readers of the forum. LOL. Lioness you are such a great deciever.
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
You can look at the vase and the top two glyphs next to the spear held by Black man is the Jaguar and Ahau glyphs. They would read Balam Ahau 'Jaguar Lord'.
The inscriptions in front of the Black man holding the spear read: Balam Ahau. Yu ta te ma se. Ta po be i. The translation reads: " Jaguar Lord. The vital spirit arives today. Pure and sacre (is here). Thou [Balam Ahau] exist as a sacre object".
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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
1.Balam [Jaguar] Lord was painted black as was the Mayan tradition in representing elites in ceremonies, while the feet were represented in the natural dark color of Jaguar Lord.
2.It is clear that the figure painted black on the Chama vase, holding the spear was a dignitary—not a god--, since the hieroglyphic text in front of the figure, says he was named Balam Ahau. The dark color of Balam Ahau feet and hands show that he was negro.
3.The beard on Balam Ahau was a style favored by this elite. LOL. There is no such as an African type of beard.
4. The spotted feline is associated with African religious / political tradition it was transferred from Africa to Mexico . In Africa the spotted feline is the leopard, in the Americas it is the jaguar.
The Jaguar,
The Leopard
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Balam [Jaguar] Lord was painted black as was the Mayan tradition in representing elites in ceremonies, while the feet were represented in the natural dark color of Jaguar Lord.
2.It is clear that the figure painted black on the Chama vase, holding the spear was a dignitary—not a god--, since the hieroglyphic text in front of the figure, says he was named Balam Ahau. The dark color of Balam Ahau feet and hands show that he was negro.
The elongated head of Balam Ahaun was formerly popular in Africa.
Check out my videos on the Blacks of Costachicaos and their role in Mexican history
Cylde why does this black colored figure have a chin and around his eyes a different color? What is your explanation?
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Cylde why does this black colored figure have a chin and around his eyes a different color? What is your explanation?
He is a Mayan Amerindian following the traditions of the Blacks whose civilization they adopted.
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Cylde why does this black colored figure have a chin and around his eyes a different color? What is your explanation?
He is a Mayan Amerindian following the traditions of the Blacks whose civilization they adopted.
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why is his chin and around his eyes not black in color?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by IronLion (Member # 16412) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Cylde why does this black colored figure have a chin and around his eyes a different color? What is your explanation?
He is a Mayan Amerindian following the traditions of the Blacks whose civilization they adopted.
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why is his chin and around his eyes not black in color?
Haney
Because he is a Mayan Ameri-Indian. Why are you being a nag today?
You need to relax??
Hehehe...
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
This person is not a god.
You can look at the vase and the top two glyphs next to the spear held by Black man is the Jaguar and Ahau glyphs. They would read Balam Ahau 'Jaguar Lord'.
Below Olmec and Nubian
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You can look at the vase and the top two glyphs next to the spear held by Black man is the Jaguar and Ahau glyphs. They would read Balam Ahau 'Jaguar Lord'.
The inscriptions in front of the Black man holding the spear read: Balam Ahau. Yu ta te ma se. Ta po be i. The translation reads: " Jaguar Lord. The vital spirit arives today. Pure and sacre (is here). Thou [Balam Ahau] exist as a sacre object".
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Handbook To Life In The Ancient Maya World - Google Books Result Lynn Vasco Foster - 2005 - 402 pages This deity, who may have been named Ek Chuah, sometimes carries a spear. ... distinctive attributes are a beaklike nosepiece, the lunar crescent, and a rabbit.
His nose does protrude in a beak like manner. He is depicted black as Ek Chuah There are some researchers who believe this is the God Ek Chuah but it is uncertain.
The Mayan word Ahua means God or High-King or as you said "lord" . Balam, jaguar
Your translation " Jaguar Lord. The vital spirit arives today. Pure and sacre (is here). Thou [Balam Ahau] exist as a sacre object"
^^^ Clyde this contributes to the intepretation that the black figures are dieties or Gods, > Lord, spirit etc.
"Maya gods with jaguar attributes or garments are underworld gods" (Benson 1998:64). One such god is Xbalanque,Another is God L, who is "the primary lord of the underworld" and often is shown with a jaguar ear or jaguar attire, and atop a jaguar throne
If your traslation is correct " The vital spirit arives today" and "lord" imply a supernatural being
Nobody is really sure who it is. Ek Chuah aka (God M) not sure -or God L also painted black
There are as many as 250 dieties in the Maya pantheon
God L of the Schellhas-Zimmermann-Taube classification of codical gods is one of the major pre-Spanish Maya deities, specifically associated with trade. Characterized by high age, he is one of the Mam ('Grandfather') deities. More specifically, he evinces jaguar traits (particularly the ear), a broad feathery hat topped by an owl, and a jaguar mantle or a cape with a pattern somewhat resembling an armadillo shell. God M (Ek Chuah) is also identified with the Moan Owl
The Chama vase may in fact be showing two closely associated Gods, none to be sometimes portrayed as black God L and God M ( Ek Chuah)
-or shaman/priest dressed to personify these dieties analogous to the way kings are sometimes rendered jet black in Egypt to personify Osiris
Clyde, there are four glyphs showing along with that black bearded figure. What is the individual glyph next to the jaguar? It appears to be an animal or bird (?)
^^^ notice perhaps this is the below figure, the description "except for a red area around the chin"
^^^^ what is he holding? Is it a spear or a symbolic spear? Is it a scepter? It somewhat resembles a fish.
I don't see how you could say with confidence none of these figures represent Gods or priests personifying Gods. How ould you know that for certain?
A regular person called "jaguar lord" ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
dupl
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: You can look at the vase and the top two glyphs next to the spear held by Black man is the Jaguar and Ahau glyphs. They would read Balam Ahau 'Jaguar Lord'.
The inscriptions in front of the Black man holding the spear read: Balam Ahau. Yu ta te ma se. Ta po be i. The translation reads: " Jaguar Lord. The vital spirit arives today. Pure and sacre (is here). Thou [Balam Ahau] exist as a sacre object".
.
I don't see how you could say with confidence none of these figures represent Gods or priests personifying Gods. How ould you know that for certain?
A regular person called "jaguar lord" ?
I know he was not a god by reading the inscriptions
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
?
If he's not a God researchers believe it might be a shaman painted black in association with a god, "God M" (Ek Chuah) His beard is quite choppy and straight whiskered. The Mayan and Olmec art and architecture do not resemble West African art and architecture- big problem right there. The bearded figure here is more similar to certain Chinese art figures relatively speaking, not that there's any connection. People the world over have been known attractive animal skins if they are available in the region
Th glyphs don't fully explain the scene, not at all
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This is the guide to the Peabody Museum where the vase is kept:
Guide to the Mesoamerican Gallery at the University of Pennsylvania Museum ... By University of Pennsylvania. Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, Elin C. Danien
certainly doesn't resemble the very broad Olmec heads Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
Balam looks exactly like the figures on the LaVenta celt.
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
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these long heads...
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are totally different from these wide heads
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The tip of this spear point was probably not copper, even though copper was frequently used by Pre-Columbian Blacks to make tools and other artifacts.
The spear point was probably quanin.. Blacks usually sold this metal to Amerindians.
The Spanish mention Blacks coming to Espanola with spear points made of quanin. According to Las Casas quanin was made up of 18 parts gold, 6 parts of silver and 8 parts of copper. LOL. The Chama vase proves that Blacks did indeed possess quanin spearpoints .
Bernardo, Nobody cares what you say or think. You were not in America back in the 16th Century. Las Casas was. This is what he wrote:
“[Columbus] thought to investigate the report of the Indians of this Españla who said that there had come to Española from the south and southeast, a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal they call quanin of which he had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper.”[1]
What do we learn from this passage. First we learn that the Indians traded with ‘black people’. These Black people had spears made of gold, copper and silver. And finally these people called this metal quanin. .
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Now what do we see in the picture above. First we find a Black man depicted as the trader god of the Maya at the court of a Mayan dignitary. This Black man has a reddish/orange-yellowish spear point [which would have been the color of a spear point made from copper and gold]. This vase supports the Indian tradition that Blacks introduced, and manufactured the spear point of the Black man on this vase.
This vase proves that Blacks carried reddish/orange-yellowish spear points on the tip of their spears which would have resembled the spear point depicted on this vase. This is further proof of the Pre-Columbian presence of Blacks in the Americas.
this item may not be a spear. The tip is much too large and there is a tassel hanging down from it and what material it would be made out of is impossible to tell
Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
Looks to me like a ceremonial spear
The color is different because he is dressed the skin of a Panther?? Lioness
quote:why does this black colored figure have a chin and around his eyes a different color? What is your explanation?
And where ever the heck he is ultimately from you gotta admit his hair line is very unusual for what often is considered usual for native Americans.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
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This is an illustration of all the colossal Olmec heads. Each is wearing a cap that forms a straight line across the forehead
what is the size, source, date and location of the following?
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: And where ever the heck he is ultimately from you gotta admit his hair line is very unusual for what often is considered usual for native Americans.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Looks to me like a ceremonial spear
The color is different because he is dressed the skin of a Panther?? Lioness
quote:why does this black colored figure have a chin and around his eyes a different color? What is your explanation?
And where ever the heck he is ultimately from you gotta admit his hair line is very unusual for what often is considered usual for native Americans.
It has now been almost 100 years since the work of Wiener and DuBois on the African heritage of the ancient Mexicans. As a result, we can no longer look at this historical event from a token perspective.
Most Afro americans who have not studied the knowledge base continue to believe that this event has not been settled, in reality it has. There is no reason to continue to believe that it is unsettled until European academe accepts an ancient African presence in Mexico as true.
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THEY WERE LATE COMERS TO THE FERTILE CRESCENT. 
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