Originally posted by the lioness,:
One cannot assume which type is earliest in the Maghreb
quote:How can one distinguish North Africans with roots that go back 10,000 + years from people who look more like other Africans due to SSA migrations into NA within 3,000 years ?
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why all these female faces? The 9k old H1 myth
that it means a white caucasian european face.
It's about the overlooked indigenee types who have
had minor admixture from southern European peoples.
To that end no Gnawa or even southern Kels need be posted either.
quote:I don't know what 12,000 years old Eurasian DNA in the Magreb you're talking about.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
prehistoric people 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb had Eurasian DNA and cold adapted limb ratios
quote:This nonsense by you has been debunked so many times, that this remark simply is way too funny.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:How can one distinguish North Africans with roots that go back 10,000 + years from people who look more like other Africans due to SSA migrations into NA within 3,000 years ?
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why all these female faces? The 9k old H1 myth
that it means a white caucasian european face.
It's about the overlooked indigenee types who have
had minor admixture from southern European peoples.
To that end no Gnawa or even southern Kels need be posted either.
quote:Can you also tell the ethnic background and topological origin of each of the people, you've posted? Or did you just simply scrapped images from the Internet not knowing anything about the subject of ethnographics?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
One cannot assume which type is earliest in the Maghreb
quote:Isn't she talking about the Henn study.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I don't know what 12,000 years old Eurasian DNA in the Magreb you're talking about.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
prehistoric people 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb had Eurasian DNA and cold adapted limb ratios
But, they did live in cave activities for thousands of years prior to 12,000 years ago in at Magreb and there was climatic change, did you know that?
quote:no. Kefi, Taforalt Morocco
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Isn't she talking about the Henn study.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I don't know what 12,000 years old Eurasian DNA in the Magreb you're talking about.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
prehistoric people 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb had Eurasian DNA and cold adapted limb ratios
But, they did live in cave activities for thousands of years prior to 12,000 years ago in at Magreb and there was climatic change, did you know that?
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The aboriginal population of North Africa was Black African. This population was at no point in time EVER displaced by European invaders. NOT EVER.
Folks who try and claim that a couple of remains from some odd point on some map have "Eurasian" genes are talking foolishness. Even if those remains do show "Eurasian" admixture that does not mean that all of North Africa from the straights of Gibraltar down to Southern Libya was magically repopulated 10,000 years ago with blonde haired, brown haired, or any other haired kind of white people. It is nonsense and a lie.
At no point in time historically have black people been absent from North Africa. That is bull sh*t and most anthropologists know it.
Now that just covers the 'general' anthropology of North Africa. But more specifically in terms of language and culture, Berber is a purely African phenomenon. Berber is a language and culture and not a gene. It was purely developed in Africa among black African populations. Later migrations have adopted that culture in parts of North Africa but none of those migrations represent an import of Berber language or culture INTO Africa.
quote:this is political dogma
Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] The aboriginal population of North Africa was Black African. This population was at no point in time EVER displaced by European invaders. NOT EVER.
quote:I'm sorry I have to keep reposting stuff I have posted so many time before
Originally posted by xyyman:
Quote:
Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people
Alaska!!??? Really?
Source?
• Article: Climate and anthropometric variations in Europe and the Mediterranean area.
E Crognier
[Show abstract] [Hide abstract]
ABSTRACT: Fourteen anthropometric measurements collected among 85 European, North African and Middle Eastern populations have been studied with respect to eight climatic variables through zero-order correlations and multiple stepwise regressions. The average contribution of climate to the total variance of physical features between populations is 35%. The most important correlations of postcranial body measurements and nasal index are with the extremes of heat and dryness, while the head measurements are more sensitive to extremes of cold and moisture. The overall results indicate that these populations follow the zoological rules of Bergmann and Allen.
quote:Look at the chart above
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Abstract
The Lower Nubian Epipaleolithic site of Jebel Sahaba (Sudan) was discovered in 1962. From 1962–1966, a total of 58 intentionally-buried skeletons were uncovered at the site. Diagnostic microliths indicative of the Qadan industry as well as the site's geology suggest an age of 14–12 ka for these burials. In this study, the body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample are compared to those of a large (max N = 731) sample of recent human skeletons from Europe, Africa, and circumpolar North America, as well as to terminal Pleistocene “Iberomaurusian” skeletons from the Algerian sites of Afalou-Bou-Rhummel and the later Capsian-associated Ain Dokhara specimen, as well as Natufian skeletons from the southern Levantine site of El Wad.Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples. Multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba humans is most similar to that of recent sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Levantine Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples. Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000, 2005) and Franciscus (1995, 2003) who, using dental, oral, and nasal morphology, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their penecontemporaries in other parts of North Africa or the groups that succeed them in Nubia.
quote:I have summed up the corresponding alleles. These alleles were already present in older indigenous African populations, this is why I called it laughable. That person will keep on ranting till the end of days. But will never show objective material nor incoming industries. But we have shown out going industries.
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
quote:Isn't she talking about the Henn study.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I don't know what 12,000 years old Eurasian DNA in the Magreb you're talking about.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
prehistoric people 12,000 years ago in the Maghreb had Eurasian DNA and cold adapted limb ratios
But, they did live in cave activities for thousands of years prior to 12,000 years ago in at Magreb and there was climatic change, did you know that?
quote:You forgot to post about the climatic changes in the Magreb and how the people lived in cave activities. For thousands of years.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:I'm sorry I have to keep reposting stuff I have posted so many time before
Originally posted by xyyman:
Quote:
Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people
Alaska!!??? Really?
Source?
• Article: Climate and anthropometric variations in Europe and the Mediterranean area.
E Crognier
[Show abstract] [Hide abstract]
ABSTRACT: Fourteen anthropometric measurements collected among 85 European, North African and Middle Eastern populations have been studied with respect to eight climatic variables through zero-order correlations and multiple stepwise regressions. The average contribution of climate to the total variance of physical features between populations is 35%. The most important correlations of postcranial body measurements and nasal index are with the extremes of heat and dryness, while the head measurements are more sensitive to extremes of cold and moisture. The overall results indicate that these populations follow the zoological rules of Bergmann and Allen.
Son of Ra and xyyman should know what I'm talking about now
quote:Look at the chart above
Originally posted by Truthcentric:
I have just downloaded this new limb proportion study onto my laptop at UCSD. If anyone's interested in taking a look, PM me your e-mail so I can send it to you.
To give you a preview of the findings, here's a dendrogram showing similarities in limb proportions between the populations measured:
Population Affinities of the Jebel Sahaba Skeletal Sample (Holliday 2013)
Abstract
The Lower Nubian Epipaleolithic site of Jebel Sahaba (Sudan) was discovered in 1962. From 1962–1966, a total of 58 intentionally-buried skeletons were uncovered at the site. Diagnostic microliths indicative of the Qadan industry as well as the site's geology suggest an age of 14–12 ka for these burials. In this study, the body proportions of the Jebel Sahaba sample are compared to those of a large (max N = 731) sample of recent human skeletons from Europe, Africa, and circumpolar North America, as well as to terminal Pleistocene “Iberomaurusian” skeletons from the Algerian sites of Afalou-Bou-Rhummel and the later Capsian-associated Ain Dokhara specimen, as well as Natufian skeletons from the southern Levantine site of El Wad.Bivariate analyses distinguish Jebel Sahaba from European and circumpolar samples, but do not tend to segregate them from recent North or sub-Saharan African samples. Multivariate analyses (PCA, PCO with minimum spanning tree, NJ cluster analyses) indicate that the body shape of the Jebel Sahaba humans is most similar to that of recent sub-Saharan Africans, and different from that of either the Levantine Natufians or the northwest African “Iberomaurusian” samples. Importantly, these results corroborate those of Irish (2000, 2005) and Franciscus (1995, 2003) who, using dental, oral, and nasal morphology, found that Jebel Sahaba was most similar to recent sub-Saharan Africans, and morphologically distinct from their penecontemporaries in other parts of North Africa or the groups that succeed them in Nubia.
Ain Dokhara is a later Capsian sample (North Africa)
El Wad ( Natufian, Israel)
Afalou (Mechta-Afalou) or Mechtoid are an extinct people of North Africa (Ibero-Maurusian culture).
They were replaced by the Capisans
As we can see on the dendogram the Afalou's cold adpated limb ratios are closer to Alaskans (Koniag and Ipiutak) and Europeans. The Afalou are at the extreme opposite from the
Jebel Sahaba a 13K yo cemetary in Sudan who cluster with the more tropical Africans.
The Afalou seem to be in between Alaskan and European limb proportions
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:--Frigi et al., 2010
[...]
Since the end of the extreme Saharan desiccation, lasting from before 25,000 years ago up to about 15,000 years ago, the Sahara has had post- and pre- Holocene cyclical climatic changes (Street and Grove 1976), and corresponding increases and decreases in population are probable. Wetter phases with better habitats perhaps allowed for increased colonization and gene and cultural exchange.
quote:--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
quote:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm
Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote:This I agree but you need to be mixed with Eurasians to have Eurasian DNA like non-L MtDNA or F-descendant Y-DNA. You can't also pick and choose which DNA is Eurasian or not. Same for clustering autosomally closer to Eurasians than to other Africans without admixtures.
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Patrol said:
And usually Southern Magreb people look close to SSA. The Sahara/ Sahel people are like the bridge between North and South.
Indeed, and folks should also keep in mind that "sub-Saharan" people
are the most diverse phenotypicaly and don;t need any "race mix" to
explain say- narrow noses, or looser hair, or even brown skin. All such
features are indigenous to sub-Saharan Africaand dont need any "wandering
Caucasoids" or "Middle Easterners'...
quote:There is no one Berber languages
Originally posted by xyyman:
And round and round we go….so …what is the matrinial line? The male line is older than Bantus in Africa. The language group is purely African even older than the Bantus linguitsic line.
So!....Matrilinial line?
Signed..the racist
quote:As you can see there is not a single Berber language. Tuareg is recognized as a Berber language but it is closely related to Songhay.
The Berber languages (native name: Tamazight) are the indigenous languages of North Africa west of the Nile. The Berber group is a member of the Afroasiatic language family. A relatively sparse population speaking a group of very closely related and similar languages and dialects extends across the Atlas Mountains, the Sahara, and the northern part of the Sahel in Morocco, Algeria, Niger, Mali, Tunisia, Libya, and the Siwa Oasis area of Egypt. There is a movement among speakers of the closely related Northern Berber languages to unite them into a single standard language.
The name Tamazight, which traditionally referred specifically to Central Morocco Tamazight, and is also used by the native speakers of Riff (Tarifit), is being increasingly used for this Standard Berber, or even for Berber as a whole. Its usage is less consistent in some areas like the Kabylia where locals call their language Taqbaylit rather than Tamazight. Due to the rising Berber cultural and political activism and its recent prominence in the North African media, the popularity of the term Tamazight made it known and recognizable by virtually every citizen in North Africa, including non-Berber speakers.
Among the notable varieties of Berber are Central Morocco Tamazight, Riff, Shilha (Tashelhiyt), Kabylian (Taqbaylit), and the Tuareg dialect chain. The Berber languages have had a written tradition, on and off, for over 2,000 years, although the tradition has been frequently disrupted by various invasions. It was first written in the Tifinagh alphabet, still used by the Tuareg; the oldest dated inscription is from about 200 BC. Later, between about 1000 AD and 1500 AD, it was written in the Arabic alphabet; since the 20th century, it has often been written in the Latin alphabet, especially among the Kabylians.
quote:Considering the aDNA results on some small numbers of Ibero-Maurisian remains. It seems indeed Berbers "replaced" in one way or another ancient black Africans called Aterians inhabiting the North African regions a very long time ago (not later than 10000BC). Coming from Iberia. Due to the lack of archeological data, the modality of that replacement is not clear yet. This is a very long time ago.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Black Berbers have been replaced in many parts of Africa by Caucasian Berbers.
quote:.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:How can one distinguish North Africans with roots that go back 10,000 + years from people who look more like other Africans due to SSA migrations into NA within 3,000 years ?
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why all these female faces? The 9k old H1 myth
that it means a white caucasian european face.
It's about the overlooked indigenee types who have
had minor admixture from southern European peoples.
To that end no Gnawa or even southern Kels need be posted either.
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
So what does your method reveal about say
* East Africa vs Tigara
or
* Pygmy vs EuroAmerican ?
By your method is Jebel Sahaba closer to
* East Africa
or
* West Africa?
What is the meaning of branches on the same limb?
What is being measured as the distance between populations?
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The way to determine the distance bewteen two populations on the above dendogram is to
start at the name of the first populaltion.
Then you follow the line path eminating from that name it like a mouse in a maze to the second popualation.
You can move in any direction along the path, up, down, backwards or forwards, whatever is the shortest distance from one population to the next.
Since the scale of this chart is horizontal you only record the distances of the horizontal movements.
When you put these horizontal segments together and measure them in total, that is the distance bewteen two populations
quote:Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
So Winters finally agrees that he original Berbers were African and not from Europe? If so, thats good.
quote:The Temehu were very hostile to the Tehenu/Tjehnya. In fact, the first mention of the Meshwesh in Ramses III inscriptions relating to 1188, was the attack of the Tehenu, by the Meshwqesh, Soped and Sea People . David O'Connor makes it clear that the the records of Ramses III make it clear that the Meshweshy "savagely" attacked the Tehenu and looted their cities during their advance to Egypt (p.35 & 105).
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).
This translation of Egyptian discussed by F.J. Yurco, in his article on the Rameses III relief, in Egypt in Africa, (Ed.) Theorore Celenke (1996).
quote:
Originally posted by Son of Ra:
So Winters finally agrees that he original Berbers were African and not from Europe? If so, thats good.
quote:Stuck on stupid again??!!...
Originally posted by xyyman:
Flip flopping again??!!...
Quote [------
Tired of a lotta "Berber" bullshit and the usual pic spam so here's the iMazighen not usually seen but of much less very recent Euro mommy matriline.
[-------
Short memory- H1 Arabia, H3 North African
quote:
Originally posted by al~Takruri:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
quote:There facial feutuers can't be seen very well, in the images you've posted.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by al~Takruri:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
____________________________________________________LIBYANS^
Clyde I don't get it
The above are Libyans, circa 1200 BC, you say of " European physical type" shown in iconographic evidence from Egypt
That's about 1600 years before the Vandals
So why do you keep talking about Vandals?
quote:--metmuseum
The sidelocks of the people on this relief block identify the men as Libyans. They need not be prisoners but could be members of the Egyptian army or envoys at a festival. As usual with sandstone relief pieces the block was part of a temple decoration at Karnak.
quote:--Nick Brooks et al.
Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
quote:This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by al~Takruri:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
____________________________________________________LIBYANS^
Clyde I don't get it
The above are Libyans, circa 1200 BC, you say of " European physical type" shown in iconographic evidence from Egypt
That's about 1600 years before the Vandals
So why do you keep talking about Vandals?
quote:^^^ this is a post by Tukular in a thread called
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Ait Mgoum from the Moroccan Atlas Valley of Roses
quote:Speaking of Libyans.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by al~Takruri:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Yes the original so-called Berbers were of African origin. But the people in Northwest Africa are not the original Berbers. They were given this name by the Europeans.
The original people called Berbers lived in Libya. Not in the areas presently occupied by the white Berbers. These Berbers were Blacks--not white.
Reading the Egyptians from Left to Right: Rmt (Egyptian), Tjhnw (Libyans),Nhsy (Kushites) and Aamw (Syro-Palestinians).quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
. The iconographic evidence from Egypt, does not show the European physical type until the invasion of Egypt by the People of the Sea after 1200BC
____________________________________________________LIBYANS^
Clyde I don't get it
The above are Libyans, circa 1200 BC, you say of " European physical type" shown in iconographic evidence from Egypt
That's about 1600 years before the Vandals
So why do you keep talking about Vandals?
quote:http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/362/
Long Description
Ghadamès, known as the 'pearl of the desert', stands in an oasis. It is one of the oldest pre-Saharan cities and an outstanding example of a traditional settlement. Its domestic architecture is characterized by a vertical division of functions: the ground floor used to store supplies; then another floor for the family, overhanging covered alleys that create what is almost an underground network of passageways; and, at the top, open-air terraces reserved for the women. It is one of the oldest cities in the pre-Saharan region; it succeeded ancient Cydamae, a fortified city made an ally of Rome by Cornelius Balbus on his victorious expedition against the Garamantes in 19 BC.
Today it is a small oasis city situated next to a palm grove. None of the surviving buildings date from the protohistoric Berber period, or the period of Roman domination, yet a remarkable domestic architectural style distinguishes Ghadamès as a unique site among a series of pre-Saharan cities and settlements stretching along the northern edge of the desert from Libya to Mauritania. Roughly circular in layout, the historic city of Ghadamès comprises a cluster of houses. The reinforced outer walls of the houses on the edge of the city form a fortified wall. However, this rudimentary urban enclosure also incorporates, here and there, doors and bastions.
The basic units of the city are its houses, which have a minimum of two main floors. Access to the ground floor, which may be sunken, is by a single entrance door opens onto a narrow hallway leading to a rectangular-shaped room where provisions are stored, and, at the back, to a staircase. The staircase leads to a much more spacious upper level. Ground-level living space encroaches upon the blind enclosed passageways along the walls on the ground floor which open onto the city, forming arcades rather than actual streets. The first floor generally includes a raised attic and bedrooms, and sometimes a sitting-room; there may also be a second floor with a similar layout. At the level of the terraces (there may be three or four depending on the house) only the projecting portion formed by the raised attic rises above the roof, marked off by low enclosure walls.
The contradicting layout of this unusual city cannot be perceived as a whole. At ground level, the narrow, dark arcades cut off the main parts of the buildings, permitting virtually underground circulation; small, isolated family units are the salient feature of the upper floors. A kind of collective dimension is provided by the terraces, which form an open cityscape. However, they do so by separating the sexes: the terrace is the domain of women, and gives them a great deal of freedom, communicating between terraces; they make friends with neighbours and can even move about the 'roof' of the city. The covered arcades at ground level are generally reserved for men.
Ghadamès has conserved the original materials specific to this surprising urban structure: pisé or clay brick walls, woodwork, masonry and palm-wood casings. Lime-washing of the walls inside and in large outdoor areas brightens the rooms and highlights the spartan decorations, windows and gypsum niches, paintings and objects.
Source: UNESCO/CLT/WHC
quote:But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
quote:I have no idea why you were showing Phoenicians?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:this is political dogma
Originally posted by Doug M:
[QB] The aboriginal population of North Africa was Black African. This population was at no point in time EVER displaced by European invaders. NOT EVER.
The Iberomaurusian culture lasts for about 10,000 years and ended about 10,000 years ago
DNA of Iberomaurusian remains in Morocco 12kya show high frequencies of Eurasian mtDNA, also some samples possibly African
Their Y DNA is unknown
Their limb ratios were very cold adapted, clustering near to Alaksa people
It is unknown if they are "invaders" or simply people who migrated to the region
skeletons were recovered from Grotte des Pigeons, a cave system at Taforalt, Morocco
Iberomaurusian burial from Hattab 2 Cave. This site was also investigated by the project. The cranium reveals the same pattern of incisor extraction as seen in the burials from Taforalt.
The earliest date of 12.675ka from the base of the grey sequence provides a likely maximum age for the burials.
__________________________________
This hunter gather population was replaced by another hunter gatherer population of more gracile proportions called Capsian
It is unknown to what extent if any modern Maghreb popualtions have any ancestry linked to either of these green period Sahara groups beacause after the Capsian
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosuand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosuand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
There is no evidence of human settlement in the Maghreb for several thosand years after the last hunter gatherers of the green period
SO WHY EVEN WORRY ABOUT IT ???
These people came and went in a small sliver of land near the coast of North Africa, so what ???
Another period of human settlement in the Maghreb is around 800 BC, some small Greek settlements but mainly the Phoenician traders who came from what is now the Lebanon region, their largest city , Carthage
However the Egyptians also record foreign "Sea People" in the region around 1200 BC, 400 years earlier
Phoenician art - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man
Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC.
Classical Period. Grave marker
depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top) and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus).
Metropolitan Museum of Art. New York
So why even mention Vandals?
They didn't even take over Tunisia from the Cartheginians.
The Romans did that. the Roman province of Africa, which was a major breadbasket of the Empire.
Later, Arabs and Turks enter the region
^^^ Roman provinces in North African hundreds of years before the Vandals
was it like 3 Roman guys in command of huge masses of black Africans ? Look into it, Roman records
quote:http://www.nhm.ac.uk/research-curation/earth-sciences/anthropology/anthropology-research/cemeteries-and-sedentism/index.html
Grotte des Pigeons, a cave at Taforalt, north-east Morocco is a key archaeological site, with a long sequence of deposits spanning the Middle to Upper Palaeolithic.
The most recent occupants of this site were the Iberomaurusians. Iberomaurusian populations inhabited the Maghreb between 20,000 and 8000BP and are known from a series of archaeological sites close to Atlantic and Mediterranean coast.
Iberomaurusian skulls often reveal evidence for the deliberate removal of the two upper central incisors during adolescence or early adulthood.
quote:http://www.nhm.ac.uk/about-us/news/2014/jan/ancient-hunter-gatherers-diet-gave-them-toothache127174.html
Dr Humphrey also speculated that these Pleistocene hunter-gatherers may have pulled out their own teeth.
Skeletons at Taforalt reveal that most people practiced tooth evulsion, whereby one or two healthy incisors were deliberately removed in late childhood or early adulthood. This would have been for cultural reasons, such as indicating group affiliation or as a rite of passage.
The same skills could have been used to extract diseased teeth and relieve dental pain.
quote:Clyde what do indigenous North Africans look like?
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
___________________^^^^
quote:Indeed you can't pick and choose which DNA is Eurasian or not. And that is just what they did. They picked and choose.
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:This I agree but you need to be mixed with Eurasians to have Eurasian DNA like non-L MtDNA or F-descendant Y-DNA. You can't also pick and choose which DNA is Eurasian or not. Same for clustering autosomally closer to Eurasians than to other Africans without admixtures.
Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:
Patrol said:
And usually Southern Magreb people look close to SSA. The Sahara/ Sahel people are like the bridge between North and South.
Indeed, and folks should also keep in mind that "sub-Saharan" people
are the most diverse phenotypicaly and don;t need any "race mix" to
explain say- narrow noses, or looser hair, or even brown skin. All such
features are indigenous to sub-Saharan Africaand dont need any "wandering
Caucasoids" or "Middle Easterners'...
In general, while maybe sometimes it doesn't always looks like it, especially when I mention current genetic and archaeological results, I'm not here to prove Ancient Egyptians were Africans no matter what, I'm here to determine it with science.
It's just that when I see AEians clustering with Great Lakes, Southern and West Africans autosomally as well as sporting E1b1a, I can't just ignore it, especially considering other archaeological/historical evidences.
quote:--Frigi et al.
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
[...]
Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).
[...]
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autoso- mal and Y-chromosome markers.
quote:They probably looked like these people.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Clyde what do indigenous North Africans look like?
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
quote:To put things in perspective.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Clyde what do indigenous North Africans look like?
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
This was to show that the original population called Berbers were not situated in Northwest Africa, they lived in Libya. It was only recently that the white Berbers reached Siwa Oasis. The contemporary white Berbers are of Vandal origin, as opposed to the original Berbers of Libya.
Do they look like this
Seti I
___________________________
Or do they look like this:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
___________________^^^^
Fragment of glazed tile showing a Libyan captive
From the palace of Ramesses III, Tell el-Yahudia, Egypt
20th Dynasty, around 1200 BC
British Museum
quote:How ancient Libyans represented themselves.
Fragment of glazed tile showing a Libyan captive
From the palace of Ramesses III, Tell el-Yahudia, Egypt
20th Dynasty, around 1200 BC
One of the traditional enemies of Egypt
This image on this fragment represents a Libyan, a traditional enemy of Egypt. He is shown in the conventional Egyptian manner: a short beard, a long sidelock of hair, and simple clothing; the marks on his body may be tattoos.
Tiles showing the traditional enemies of Egypt (known as the 'nine bows') may have been part of the decoration of a throne room in a palace, placed either on the base of the throne or on the floor in front of the throne. The king would then literally and metaphorically trample on his enemies.
Tell el-Yahudia is a town-site on the Nile delta, about twenty kilometres north-east of Cairo. At some time in the past there was a Jewish temple and fortress, as well as a cemetery, at Tell el-Yahudia and its modern arabic name reflects this. The nineteenth-century excavators, Henri Naville and Flinders Petrie, were particularly interested in the site because they hoped for finds with a biblical connection. This fragment came from a clandestine excavation carried out some time before 1870, but other similar fragments found by Petrie suggest that they came from a building of Ramesses III. Ramesses made major modifications to the settlement, essentially building a new town.
F.D. Friedman (ed.), Gifts of the Nile: ancient Egy (London, Thames and Hudson, 1998)
G. Robins, The art of ancient Egypt (London, The British Museum Press, 1997)
W.M.F. Petrie, Hyksos and Israelite cities (London, School of Archaeology, University College; Quaritch, 1906)
E. Naville, The Mound of the Jew and the c (London, Egypt Exploration Fund, 1890)
S. Quirke and A.J. Spencer, The British Museum book of anc (London, The British Museum Press, 1992)
quote:[Uriel Rappaport]
LEONTOPOLIS, locality in the district of Heliopolis in Egypt, N.E. of *Memphis, 6 mi. (10 km.) N. of Cairo. A settlement of Jewish soldiers was established in Leontopolis under the leadership of the former high priest, *Onias, IV sometime after the outbreak of the Maccabean revolt, in the middle of the second century B.C.E., with the approval of Ptolemy Philometer and his wife Cleopatra (Jos., Ant., 13:62ff.). Its nucleus was made up of emigrants from Judea. The Jewish soldiers of the region subsequently played a role in the political life of Egypt and the area was also called "the land of Onias." Onias erected here a temple to the God of Israel by restoring a ruined Egyptian temple which stood on the site. This temple served the Jewish inhabitants of the region for more than 200 years until it was closed down by the Romans in 73 C.E. (Wars, 7:433–646). The present name of the locality, Tell al-Yahūdiyya, is a survival from this ancient Jewish settlement. In archaeological excavations, Jewish inscriptions were found there. Some wish to associate the "Camp of the Jews" mentioned by Josephus (Ant., 14:133), and also the Castra Judaeorum mentioned in the Byzantine era, with this region.
BIBLIOGRAPHY:
Tcherikover, Corpus, 1 (1957), 44–46; idem, Hellenistic Civilization and the Jews (1959), 278–9; Delcor, in: RB, 75 (1968), 188–205; Rapaport, in: Revue de Philologie, 43 (1969), 80–81.
quote:Clyde you say
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
quote:There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
quote:http://www.pnas.org/content/111/3/954.full
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
quote:Pierron did not mention a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
.
.
The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
Reference:
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543 [/QB]
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Clyde you say
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa
quote:There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
quote:http://www.pnas.org/content/111/3/954.full
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
Earliest evidence for caries and exploitation of starchy plant foods in Pleistocene hunter-gatherers from Morocco
Louise T. Humphreya,1, Isabelle De Grootea,b, Jacob Moralesc,d, Nick Bartone, Simon Collcuttf, Christopher Bronk Ramseyg, and Abdeljalil Bouzouggarh,i
Author Affiliations
Charred aerial root (rhizome) fragments of esparto (alfa) grass (Stipa tenacissima L.) are common throughout the Grey Series samples. Leaves from esparto grass are a traditional material for basketry and rhizome fragments are a common by-product of this process. Charred rhizome fragments have been recorded at other prehistoric sites from the Iberian Peninsula and Morocco (25)
http://yadda.icm.edu.pl/yadda/element/bwmeta1.element.elsevier-03fe0532-7e5f-3900-b7a0-32cf87b4d843
[25] Morales J, et al. (2013) The origins of agriculture in North-West Africa: Macro-botanical remains from Epipalaeolithic and Early Neolithic levels of Ifri Oudadane (Morocco)
This research aims to shed light on the early stages of agricultural development in Northern Africa through the analysis of the rich macro-botanical assemblages obtained from Ifri Oudadane, an Epipalaeolithic–Early Neolithic site from North-East Morocco. Results indicate the presence of domesticated plants, cereals (Hordeum vulgare, Triticum monococcum/dicoccum, Triticum durum and Triticum aestivum/durum) and pulses (Lens culinaris and Pisum sativum) in the Early Neolithic. One lentil has been dated to 7611 ± 37 cal BP representing the oldest direct date of a domesticated plant seed in Morocco and, by extension, in North Africa. Similarities in both radiocarbon dates and crop assemblages from Early Neolithic sites in Northern Morocco and the Iberian Peninsula suggest a simultaneous East to West maritime spread of agriculture along the shores of the Western Mediterranean. Wild plants were abundantly collected in both the Epipalaeolithic and the Early Neolithic periods pointing to the important role of these resources during the two periods. In addition to fruits and seeds that could have been consumed by both humans and domesticated animals, fragments of esparto grass (Stipa tenacissima) rhizomes have been identified. This is a western Mediterranean native plant that may have been used as a source of fibres for basketry.
quote:Pierron did not mention a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
.
.
The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
Reference:
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543
He is saying that H spread all over Europe (22-16 Kya) from the Middle East ( origin 29 kya)
-from Iberia it layer spread to North Africa and due to isolation it reaches it highest frequencies in the world in Libyan Turaegs ( who have low diversity of H)
-as well as Taforalt Morocco
The Y DNA of Tuaregs is primarily E
However maternally:
. Epub 2009 May 20.
First genetic insight into Libyan Tuaregs: a maternal perspective.
Ottoni C1, Martínez-Labarga C, Loogväli EL, Pennarun E, Achilli A, De Angelis F, Trucchi E, Contini I, Biondi G, Rickards O.
Abstract
The Tuaregs are a semi-nomadic pastoralist people of northwest Africa. Their origins are still a matter of debate due to the scarcity of genetic and historical data. Here we report the first data on the mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genetic characterization of a Tuareg sample from Fezzan (Libyan Sahara). A total of 129 individuals from two villages in the Acacus region were genetically analysed. Both the hypervariable regions and the coding region of mtDNA were investigated. Phylogeographic investigation was carried out in order to reconstruct human migratory shifts in central Sahara, and to shed light on the origin of the Libyan Tuaregs. Our results clearly show low genetic diversity in the sample, possibly due to genetic drift and founder effect associated with the separation of Libyan Tuaregs from an ancestral population. Furthermore, the maternal genetic pool of the Libyan Tuaregs is characterized by a major "European" component shared with the Berbers that could be traced to the Iberian Peninsula, as well as a minor 'south Saharan' contribution possibly linked to both Eastern African and Near Eastern populations.
...Of note is that the other Tuareg sample described in the literature (Watson et al., 1996) (Western Tuaregs) did not show a close genetic relationship with the Libyan Tuaregs, implying a genetic heterogeneity of the Tuaregs. This difference appears to be primarily caused by the low frequency (8%) of the European component in the Western Tuaregs, characteristic of northern African populations. After the removal of the H and V haplotypes, the Libyan Tuaregs showed a strong affiliation with the Eastern populations, while theWestern Tuaregs associated more with the Central and Western African populations (Fig. 2)
________________________________
^^^ The Western Tuaregs here the Sahelain Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are not homogeneous [/QB]
quote:--Frigi et al.
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
[...]
Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).
[...]
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
quote:--Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani et al. (2011)
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
quote:--J. L. Escacena Carrasco
This work develops a hypothesis on the origin of a cultural complex which was established in the southwest quadrant of the Iberian Peninsula around the transition from the IV to III millennium BC*. The rupture observed between the cultural groups studied herein and those proceeding them in southern Iberia can also be explained by other mechanisms not migratory movements but important accelerations in the change of human behavior. In addition, the close similarities with other peri-Mediterranean cultures may be due to convergence phenomena. The diffusionist explanation that we are presenting has previously been put forward based only on archeological arguments (Escacena et al. 1988). If we recall again the hypothesis that accredits the cultural dispersion to population movements, it is in order to offer an understanding for other studies, above all, genetic and linguistic ones, that support these connections of the North African world with the Iberian Peninsula during the recent prehistoric period.
quote:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm
Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why repost what I already put up?
What a waste of time and bandwidth.
quote:My bandwidth is Down over 60 Mb and Up over 20 Mb. And it's amusing when you yourself iterate the same, over and over then try to use it as a counter argument. While Tukuler perhaps posted that to you in the first place.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Why repost what I already put up?
What a waste of time and bandwidth.
quote:--Frigi et al.
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
[...]
Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP).
[...]
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
quote:--Wolfgang Haak
PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
quote:In: Bulletins et Mémoires de la Société d'anthropologie de Paris, XIV° Série, tome 5 fascicule 4, 1988. pp. 247-256.
The great similarities between Taforalt and Hassi-el-Abiod men (malian Sahara)
quote:--A. Bouzouggar, et al.
we suggest that there may have been a relationship, albeit a complex one, between climatic events and cave activity on the part of Iberomaurusian populations.
quote:--Nick Brooks et al.
Evidence from throughout the Sahara indicates that the region experienced a cool, dry and windy climate during the last glacial period, followed by a wetter climate with the onset of the current interglacial, with humid conditions being fully established by around 10,000 years BP, when we see the first evidence of a reoccupation of parts of the central Sahara by hunter gathers, most likely originating from sub-Saharan Africa (Cremaschi and Di Lernia, 1998; Goudie, 1992; Phillipson, 1993; Ritchie, 1994; Roberts, 1998).
[...]
Conical tumuli, platform burials and a V-type monument represent structures similar to those found in other Saharan regions and associated with human burials, appearing in sixth millennium BP onwards in northeast Niger and southwest Libya (Sivilli, 2002). In the latter area a shift in emphasis from faunal to human burials, complete by the early fifth millennium BP, has been interpreted by Di Lernia and Manzi (2002) as being associated with a changes in social organisation that occurred at a time of increasing aridity. While further research is required in order to place the funerary monuments of Western Sahara in their chronological context, we can postulate a similar process as a hypothesis to be tested, based on the high density of burial sites recorded in the 2002 survey. Fig. 2: Megaliths associated with tumulus burial (to right of frame), north of Tifariti (Fig. 1). A monument consisting of sixty five stelae was also of great interest; precise alignments north and east, a division of the area covered into separate units, and a deliberate scattering of quartzite inside the structure, are suggestive of an astronomical function associated with funerary rituals. Stelae are also associated with a number of burial sites, again suggesting dual funerary and astronomical functions (Figure 2). Further similarities with other Saharan regions are evident in the rock art recorded in the study area, although local stylistic developments are also apparent. Carvings of wild fauna at the site of Sluguilla resemble the Tazina style found in Algeria, Libya and Morocco (Pichler and Rodrigue, 2003), although examples of elephant and rhinoceros in a naturalistic style reminiscent of engravings from the central Sahara believed to date from the early Holocene are also present.
quote:The Tuareg and Fula are ancient pastoralists of the region.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Western Tuaregs here the Sahelain Tuaregs
The Tuaregs are not homogeneous
quote:The above is logically, when you look at it from a topological perspective. And both Northwest and Northeastern berbers carry lineages from further South.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Siwa of Egypt are notably different in their genetics from other berbers. They have E lineages that are not M81 like many other berbers
And maternally they have higher M frequenices and instead of U6 as some other berbers have they carry U5
quote:--Fiona Marshall
Large-scale climate change forms the backdrop to the beginnings of food production in northeastern Africa (Kröpelin et al. 2008). Hunter-gatherer communities deserted most of the northern interior of the continent during the arid glacial maximum and took refuge along the North African coast, the Nile Valley, and the southern fringes of the Sahara (Barich and Garcea 2008; Garcea 2006; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). During the subsequent Early Holocene African humid phase, from the mid-eleventh to the early ninth millennium cal BP, ceramic-using hunter-gatherers took advantage of more favorable savanna conditions to resettle much of northeastern Africa (Holl 2005; Kuper and Kröpelin 2006). Evidence of domestic animals first appeared in sites in the Western Desert of Egypt, the Khartoum region of the Nile, northern Niger, the Acacus Mountains of Libya, and Wadi Howar (Garcea 2004, 2006; Pöllath and Peters 2007; fig. 1).
quote:--Meier RJ1, Sahnouni M, Medig M, Derradji A.
Archaeological excavations were carried out in 1990 in prehistorically inhabited caves sites in the Taza locality along the eastern Algerian coast. Recovered materials included stone and bone artifacts, faunal remains and a single human skull (Taza 1). A radiocarbon date for the upper cave level from which the skull was found was 16,100 B.P. While the skull, which is likely female, is very small overall, its shape compared closely with other North African cranial series. The obtained date and archaeological materials are characteristic of the Iberomaurusian industry of the Late Paleolithic period of North Africa.
quote:http://looklex.com/morocco/oujda05.htm
This is from Ramadan in 1997. As the fast breaking festival is getting closer and closer more cookies are baked. These guys, working in a small bakery down from Bab el-Wahab, probably looked forward to the day when life returned to normal, forced as they were to work day and night to keep customers happy.
quote:A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Clyde you say
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa
quote:There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
quote:^Clyde you have a chart here with the pie diagrams.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Clyde you say
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa
quote:There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
.
It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
quote:
Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective
U Roostalu1,*, I Kutuev*†, E-L Loogväli*, E Metspalu*, K Tambets*, M Reidla*, EK Khusnutdinova†, E Usanga‡, T Kivisild* and R Villems*
+ Author Affiliations
The peopling of Europe by AMH probably started more than 40,000 YBP (Mellars 2006), with the first evidence in the Lower Danube Basin (Churchill and Smith 2000; Conard and Bolus 2003), suggesting the Near East–Anatolia as a likely route for these pioneer hunter–gatherers to Europe.
It has a coalescence age of about 31,000 YBP according to HVS-1 (table 1) and about 25,000 or 19,000 YBP when calculated using coding region mutations.
The reason for this could lie in its area of spread, centered in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East (fig. 3), having presumably milder and less arid climate during the LGM, favorable for human occupation (Adams and Faure 1997; Ramrath et al. 1999; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000; Aksu et al. 2002).
These estimates overlap with the coalescence dates calculated here for the oldest subclades of hg H. We assume, therefore, that the first expansion wave of hg H may have taken place during this favorable time frame, probably in the northern part of the Near East and the southern Caucasus, where the oldest clades of hg H appear to be more diverse until now. It has been shown that the Upper Paleolithic archaeological culture was present in the South Caucasus more than 30,000 YBP, well before the LGM (Adler et al. 2006), giving support for our estimates of past population expansions in this region.
How far the pre-LGM expansion of hg H from the Near East may have reached before the onset of the LGM is indicated by the distributions of some hg H subclades (H1, H3) (Achilli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), as well as its sister clade hg V (Torroni et al. 1998, 2001). In Europe, these clades display frequency clines radiating from the Iberian Peninsula. This pattern has been associated with the spread of the carriers of the Magdalenian culture after the LGM, suggesting that hg H had reached Europe (Pereira et al. 2005) and, perhaps, western Siberia/Inner Asia (Loogväli et al. 2004), before the LGM.
It is most likely that the initial population expansion in the southern Caucasus and the Near East involved other maternal lineages besides hg H as well. In this context, it is worth pointing out that hg U3 has been shown to be most divergent in this region, having begun to expand about 30,000 YBP (Metspalu et al. 1999). Similarly, hg HV1, with an analogous coalescence estimate, is most common and diverse in the southern Caucasus, present in the eastern Mediterranean. On the other hand, neither of the 2 became ever as frequent in Europe as hg H did (Tambets et al. 2000), suggesting that profoundly different later migration scenarios apply to them.
It should be stressed that for the majority of hg H subclades, the signal of expansion in the Near East and the Caucasus lies in a time frame between 18,000 and 10,000 YBP (table 1). It may suggest that such subclades not only expanded but also in fact arose much later than the earliest limbs of hg H. The European hg H gene pool differs significantly from that in the southern Caucasus and the Near East (fig. 4A) because different sub-hgs have expanded after the LGM in different large subcontinental areas. Most importantly, it appears that after the initial migration of the carriers of hg H into Europe, presumably already before or during the Gravettian period, there was little subsequent admixture of the West Asian and European hg H lineages.
As for Europe, a number of frequency/diversity clines in the Near East and the Caucasus could be associated with the postglacial population expansion phase. This can be partially ascribed, as in Europe, to the (re)colonization of areas that were unsuitable for human occupation during the LGM due to aridity and lower temperatures. Sub-hgs H5*, H20, and H21 are the most frequent and diverse in the western Caucasus hg H gene pool. The region, stretching over the southeastern coast of the Black Sea, was a refugium area for forest (Adams and Faure 1997; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000) and could have thus provided better conditions for fauna, as well as perhaps for human beings during the LGM. The phylogeography of H20 and H21 appears to be strictly limited within the immediate neighboring populations, suggesting their autochthonous origin in the Caucasus, whereas H5* has also been found throughout western Eurasia, albeit at a lower frequency (Loogväli et al. 2004). The expansion of humans to the Arabian Peninsula likely took place later, due to persisting aridity, which is still characteristic of the region today. As a consequence, the overall genetic diversity of hg H lineages in this region is very low (fig. 1), and the corresponding frequency pattern of hg H subclades differs from that observed elsewhere in the Near East (fig. 3).
Furthermore, our analysis provides evidence for possible back migration to the Caucasus and the Near East from the European populations. This possibility, as far as the Near East is concerned, has been discussed in some details by Richards et al. (2000), where a need for rigorous comparative phylogeographic lineage analysis (founder analysis) has been stressed. Complete mtDNA sequence based phylogeographic analysis—an approach that became available only recently—offers a new and more powerful means for such analysis (Torroni et al. 2006). Our results show that hg H-related gene flow from the East European Plain to the Caucasus populations is particularly evident in the mtDNA pool of the Turkic-speaking Karatchaians–Balkarians, where typically European sub-hgs of hg H, such as H1a, H1b, and H3, are present at a high frequency (figs. 1 and 2 and Supplementary Material online). This apparent overlap may have ancient roots, such as shared ancestry of Karatchaians–Balkarians and northern Ponto-Caspian nomadic people.
Taken together with recent series of predominantly “eurocentric” high-resolution phylogeographic analysis of hg H (Achilli et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), presented here data suggest that hg H had already expanded before the LGM, with its oldest lineages being frequent in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East. A new phase of expansion followed the climate amelioration after the LGM. Later on, there appears to be only limited mtDNA flow from the Near East/the southern Caucasus toward Europe, as far as the dominant maternal lineage cluster—hg H—is concerned. As a result, different frequency spectra of hg H subclades characterize an otherwise largely joint Near Eastern heritage of maternal lineages for both West Asia and Europe.
Previous Section
Next Section
quote:Sorry. The chart is from:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:^Clyde you have a chart here with the pie diagrams.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
quote:Clyde you say
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa
quote:There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
.
It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
I don't see that chart in the Pierron article
It shows in red color Malians having 50% mtDNA haplogroup H
This leads one to believe that that chart is taken out of context to put it mildly
Similalry there is nothing showing for Spain where there are high frequencies of H
So what is the source of this chart?
quote:Your reaction is rejection...like the simple mind you are. In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:^Clyde you have a chart here with the pie diagrams.
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Clyde you say
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
[QUOTE]
The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
"Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa
quote:There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter
Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor
.
It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
I don't see that chart in the Pierron article
It shows in red color Malians having 50% mtDNA haplogroup H
This leads one to believe that that chart is taken out of context to put it mildly
Similalry there is nothing showing for Spain where there are high frequencies of H
So what is the source of this chart?
You argue that Levantine Haplogroups would likely back Migrate into Africa>
"Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia."
However researchers believe it originated in Anatolia where it has high diversity not the Levant
From this points is spreads into Europe and then North Africa
and reaches some very high frequency in certain isolated Tunisian berber populaltions
quote:
Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective
U Roostalu1,*, I Kutuev*†, E-L Loogväli*, E Metspalu*, K Tambets*, M Reidla*, EK Khusnutdinova†, E Usanga‡, T Kivisild* and R Villems*
+ Author Affiliations
The peopling of Europe by AMH probably started more than 40,000 YBP (Mellars 2006), with the first evidence in the Lower Danube Basin (Churchill and Smith 2000; Conard and Bolus 2003), suggesting the Near East–Anatolia as a likely route for these pioneer hunter–gatherers to Europe.
It has a coalescence age of about 31,000 YBP according to HVS-1 (table 1) and about 25,000 or 19,000 YBP when calculated using coding region mutations.
The reason for this could lie in its area of spread, centered in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East (fig. 3), having presumably milder and less arid climate during the LGM, favorable for human occupation (Adams and Faure 1997; Ramrath et al. 1999; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000; Aksu et al. 2002).
These estimates overlap with the coalescence dates calculated here for the oldest subclades of hg H. We assume, therefore, that the first expansion wave of hg H may have taken place during this favorable time frame, probably in the northern part of the Near East and the southern Caucasus, where the oldest clades of hg H appear to be more diverse until now. It has been shown that the Upper Paleolithic archaeological culture was present in the South Caucasus more than 30,000 YBP, well before the LGM (Adler et al. 2006), giving support for our estimates of past population expansions in this region.
How far the pre-LGM expansion of hg H from the Near East may have reached before the onset of the LGM is indicated by the distributions of some hg H subclades (H1, H3) (Achilli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), as well as its sister clade hg V (Torroni et al. 1998, 2001). In Europe, these clades display frequency clines radiating from the Iberian Peninsula. This pattern has been associated with the spread of the carriers of the Magdalenian culture after the LGM, suggesting that hg H had reached Europe (Pereira et al. 2005) and, perhaps, western Siberia/Inner Asia (Loogväli et al. 2004), before the LGM.
It is most likely that the initial population expansion in the southern Caucasus and the Near East involved other maternal lineages besides hg H as well. In this context, it is worth pointing out that hg U3 has been shown to be most divergent in this region, having begun to expand about 30,000 YBP (Metspalu et al. 1999). Similarly, hg HV1, with an analogous coalescence estimate, is most common and diverse in the southern Caucasus, present in the eastern Mediterranean. On the other hand, neither of the 2 became ever as frequent in Europe as hg H did (Tambets et al. 2000), suggesting that profoundly different later migration scenarios apply to them.
It should be stressed that for the majority of hg H subclades, the signal of expansion in the Near East and the Caucasus lies in a time frame between 18,000 and 10,000 YBP (table 1). It may suggest that such subclades not only expanded but also in fact arose much later than the earliest limbs of hg H. The European hg H gene pool differs significantly from that in the southern Caucasus and the Near East (fig. 4A) because different sub-hgs have expanded after the LGM in different large subcontinental areas. Most importantly, it appears that after the initial migration of the carriers of hg H into Europe, presumably already before or during the Gravettian period, there was little subsequent admixture of the West Asian and European hg H lineages.
As for Europe, a number of frequency/diversity clines in the Near East and the Caucasus could be associated with the postglacial population expansion phase. This can be partially ascribed, as in Europe, to the (re)colonization of areas that were unsuitable for human occupation during the LGM due to aridity and lower temperatures. Sub-hgs H5*, H20, and H21 are the most frequent and diverse in the western Caucasus hg H gene pool. The region, stretching over the southeastern coast of the Black Sea, was a refugium area for forest (Adams and Faure 1997; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000) and could have thus provided better conditions for fauna, as well as perhaps for human beings during the LGM. The phylogeography of H20 and H21 appears to be strictly limited within the immediate neighboring populations, suggesting their autochthonous origin in the Caucasus, whereas H5* has also been found throughout western Eurasia, albeit at a lower frequency (Loogväli et al. 2004). The expansion of humans to the Arabian Peninsula likely took place later, due to persisting aridity, which is still characteristic of the region today. As a consequence, the overall genetic diversity of hg H lineages in this region is very low (fig. 1), and the corresponding frequency pattern of hg H subclades differs from that observed elsewhere in the Near East (fig. 3).
Furthermore, our analysis provides evidence for possible back migration to the Caucasus and the Near East from the European populations. This possibility, as far as the Near East is concerned, has been discussed in some details by Richards et al. (2000), where a need for rigorous comparative phylogeographic lineage analysis (founder analysis) has been stressed. Complete mtDNA sequence based phylogeographic analysis—an approach that became available only recently—offers a new and more powerful means for such analysis (Torroni et al. 2006). Our results show that hg H-related gene flow from the East European Plain to the Caucasus populations is particularly evident in the mtDNA pool of the Turkic-speaking Karatchaians–Balkarians, where typically European sub-hgs of hg H, such as H1a, H1b, and H3, are present at a high frequency (figs. 1 and 2 and Supplementary Material online). This apparent overlap may have ancient roots, such as shared ancestry of Karatchaians–Balkarians and northern Ponto-Caspian nomadic people.
Taken together with recent series of predominantly “eurocentric” high-resolution phylogeographic analysis of hg H (Achilli et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), presented here data suggest that hg H had already expanded before the LGM, with its oldest lineages being frequent in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East. A new phase of expansion followed the climate amelioration after the LGM. Later on, there appears to be only limited mtDNA flow from the Near East/the southern Caucasus toward Europe, as far as the dominant maternal lineage cluster—hg H—is concerned. As a result, different frequency spectra of hg H subclades characterize an otherwise largely joint Near Eastern heritage of maternal lineages for both West Asia and Europe.
Previous Section
Next Section
quote:--Frigi et al.
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
[...]
The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers.
quote:I have asked you to explain why ancestral alleles were already in Africans with older stems. These stems can be found in general publications. This included the SPN's in Hg H as well.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The above "might be " portion of the Frigi quote is speculation. It does not accord with other researchers and ignores highest diversity regions of H and coalescence estimates
quote:--The Explorer
With regards to the 16174T mutation, also mentioned in the notes from 2010 (main entry), L0f1 clade has tested positive for 16174T [2], as did L3 [4], which is worth pointing out, as it appears that Kefi et al. treated that mutation [not to dismiss the record that it has been located in U6-identified DNA] as another primary identifying polymorphism for U6 consideration in DNA assignment, although it is otherwise rarely treated as such in many other publications. So, it appears that all three polymorphisms, namely 16126C, 16172C, and 16174T have appeared in L3 clades [4]; in other words, the DNA assigned to U6 by Kefi et al., could just as well be outright placed in L3.
Mutation 16124T/C, as noted in the main entry, could allow for assignment into hg L3, with 16124T reported in L3b1a [2], and 16124C reported in L3e2 (L3e2a [4]), L3d and L3b, for example.
The earlier notes of the main entry also briefly noted possible assignment into L3, with regards to the alleged transition to T polymorphism at np 16239; possible L3 candidates for this are reportedly L3d again, and L3e (L3e2 and L3e2b [4]), while the mutation is found across other L-type clades, namely hg L0 (L0f2, L0d1), L1b ( L1b2), L2a (L2a1c2 [2]), L2e and L4b (L4b1).
quote:Good Lord, this is not normal.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ H is not even mentioned there
quote:--The Explorer
With regards to the 16174T mutation, also mentioned in the notes from 2010 (main entry), L0f1 clade has tested positive for 16174T [2], as did L3 [4], which is worth pointing out, as it appears that Kefi et al. treated that mutation [not to dismiss the record that it has been located in U6-identified DNA] as another primary identifying polymorphism for U6 consideration in DNA assignment, although it is otherwise rarely treated as such in many other publications. So, it appears that all three polymorphisms, namely 16126C, 16172C, and 16174T have appeared in L3 clades [4]; in other words, the DNA assigned to U6 by Kefi et al., could just as well be outright placed in L3.
Mutation 16124T/C, as noted in the main entry, could allow for assignment into hg L3, with 16124T reported in L3b1a [2], and 16124C reported in L3e2 (L3e2a [4]), L3d and L3b, for example.
The earlier notes of the main entry also briefly noted possible assignment into L3, with regards to the alleged transition to T polymorphism at np 16239; possible L3 candidates for this are reportedly L3d again, and L3e (L3e2 and L3e2b [4]), while the mutation is found across other L-type clades, namely hg L0 (L0f2, L0d1), L1b ( L1b2), L2a (L2a1c2 [2]), L2e and L4b (L4b1).
quote:--Frigi et al.
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
quote:So if somebody like Frigi is talking about haplogroup H and I had a long quote about Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H,
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I have asked you to explain why ancestral alleles were already in Africans with older stems. These stems can be found in general publications. This included the SPN's in Hg H as well.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] The above "might be " portion of the Frigi quote is speculation. It does not accord with other researchers and ignores highest diversity regions of H and coalescence estimates
As I have posted these sources, including the links. Many times. And I am not taking about frequencies, for the billionth time. But the polymorphisms.
quote:Stop derailing the subject. Even after I have
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:So if somebody like Frigi is talking about haplogroup H and I had a long quote about Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H,
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:I have asked you to explain why ancestral alleles were already in Africans with older stems. These stems can be found in general publications. This included the SPN's in Hg H as well.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] The above "might be " portion of the Frigi quote is speculation. It does not accord with other researchers and ignores highest diversity regions of H and coalescence estimates
As I have posted these sources, including the links. Many times. And I am not taking about frequencies, for the billionth time. But the polymorphisms.
( Roostalu et al)
Why do you always switch topic to alleles, mutations, Hg L and U?
And why are you not dealing with the Alleles that are listed on that Taforalt chart ?
quote:The above is more derailing nonsense of this topic.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ and you have referenced all these particular alleles?
quote:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sequence
9. Genetics, Biochem. the linear order of monomers in a polymer, as nucleotides in DNA or amino acids in a protein.
v.t.
10. to place in a sequence.
11. Genetics, Biochem. to determine the order of (chemical units in a polymer chain), esp. nucleotides in DNA or RNA or amino acids in a protein.
1350–1400; Middle English ...Late Latin sequentia= Latin sequ- (s. of sequī to follow) + -entia -ence
quote:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Alleles
al·lele (-ll)
n.
One member of a pair or series of genes that occupy a specific position on a specific chromosome.
German Allel, short for Allelomorph, allelomorph, from English allelomorph.
al·lelic (-llk, -llk) adj.
al·lelism n.
quote:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/polymorphism
pol•y•mor•phism (ˌpɒl iˈmɔr fɪz əm)
n.
1. the state or condition of being polymorphous.
2.
a. genetic variation that produces differing characteristics in individuals of the same population or species.
b. the occurrence of different castes or types within the same sex, as in social ants.
3. crystallization into two or more chemically identical but crystallographically distinct forms.
[1830–40]
pol`y•mor′phic, adj.
quote:--The Explorer
With regards to the 16174T mutation, also mentioned in the notes from 2010 (main entry), L0f1 clade has tested positive for 16174T [2], as did L3 [4], which is worth pointing out, as it appears that Kefi et al. treated that mutation [not to dismiss the record that it has been located in U6-identified DNA] as another primary identifying polymorphism for U6 consideration in DNA assignment, although it is otherwise rarely treated as such in many other publications. So, it appears that all three polymorphisms, namely 16126C, 16172C, and 16174T have appeared in L3 clades [4]; in other words, the DNA assigned to U6 by Kefi et al., could just as well be outright placed in L3.
Mutation 16124T/C, as noted in the main entry, could allow for assignment into hg L3, with 16124T reported in L3b1a [2], and 16124C reported in L3e2 (L3e2a [4]), L3d and L3b, for example.
The earlier notes of the main entry also briefly noted possible assignment into L3, with regards to the alleged transition to T polymorphism at np 16239; possible L3 candidates for this are reportedly L3d again, and L3e (L3e2 and L3e2b [4]), while the mutation is found across other L-type clades, namely hg L0 (L0f2, L0d1), L1b ( L1b2), L2a (L2a1c2 [2]), L2e and L4b (L4b1).
quote:--Frigi et al.
Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif 16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, 16264, 16270, 116278, 16311.
quote:I claimed WHAT was genetic drift?
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.
quote:Instead of derailing the subject, why don't you simply respond to my question?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:I claimed WHAT was genetic drift?
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.
please can we have a complete thought ?
quote:because your question is derailing the subject and I don't play test
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:Instead of derailing the subject, why don't you simply respond to my question?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]quote:I claimed WHAT was genetic drift?
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe.
please can we have a complete thought ?
quote:But no, some polymorphisms were clearly not already present in older African clades
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
these alleles/ polymorphism were already present in older African clades
quote:this demonstrates that you you don't now what the term "drift" means in genetics, that's basic, further evidence tht you don't know what you are talking about, do a remedial on genetic drift
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
And yes, earlier on you've posted about the intrusion (drift) from Europe into Africa. Remember the Iberia? When I posted archeological evidence of African presence there long before modern day Spaniards did?
quote:you are good at pretending to what you are talking about
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
You are good at derailing and lying. You indeed lie so much, that you even forget about your own lies.
quote:http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/05/Investigation-into-the-Mysterious-Epipaleolithic-Maghrebi.html#more
Originally posted by The Explorer, Africa Timeline
From the rather ambiguous assignments that they provide the reader throughout their report, it is estimated that at least one specimen could very well be a carrier of a hg L marker. The remains of this one individual with plausible "sub-Saharan" African ancestry,
This individual—designated as Taf VIII....
It is not inconceivable that Mesolithic Maghrebi groups [who do not appear to be ancestors of recent Maghreb Tamazight or "Berber" speaking groups based on cranial findings and genetic material] may have interacted and exchanged genes with geographically proximate groups that "back-migrated" into the African continent,
quote:too much biceps not enough brain
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
I have to go to the Gym now, I'll be reading your explanation later on.
quote:My question is permeant to the subject. I of focusing on the core essentials of genetic Hg's.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
because your question is derailing the subject and I don't play test
the subject is migration from one part of the world to another
If any such migration is described you say that there is no genetic evidence for it because
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:I have posted the alleles and polymorphism.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
But no, some polymorphisms were clearly not already present in older African clades
and if you were to start looking up all the alleles listed you would see that but you are lost because Explorer didn't remark on many of the alleles and you don't know what to do,
he was talking about specifc specimins within a group of 23 individuals
quote:Look at you the lying dumbo of EgyptSearch.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
this demonstrates that you you don't now what the term "drift" means in genetics, that's basic, further evidence tht you don't know what you are talking about, do a remedial on genetic drift
quote:Yep, and that is why I have asked how come these alleles were already present in older African populations?
Originally posted by the lioness,:
you are good at pretending to what you are talking about
Alleles are gene mutations relating to HAPLOGROUPS
quote:Where did I say the alleles are a sequence? It was you who did, not I, you weirdo.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
You keep quoting Explorer when he's talking about specific sepecmins at Taforalt, the ones marked U6 and L ?
No the alleles are not a sequence
quote:I have emphasized the markers numerous times. Act as if its not there.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Explorer's complete remarks
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2013/04/Investigation-into-the-Mysterious-Epipaleolithic-Maghrebi-Update.html
Explorer's conclusion
There is rarely, if any, publication that treats 16126C as a primary identifying polymorphism for U6, yet Kefi et al. has treated this mutation just as that.
The earlier noting of 16172C location within Hgs M1, U6, and L1a still have merit, although it’s worth noting that L1a has been re-assign in the network or treated as L0a in some publications. L1, L3e1, L3, and L4b2a2 (L4b2a2b) have all tested positive for 16172C polymorphism.
[quote]
Again, I have posted the polymorphisms, as well on alleles.
Oh, you forgot to post this part, how peculiar.
To build on the last few observations, L3e2b clades (including L3e2b1a1, L3e2b3 sub-clades [4]) have tested positive for both 16126C and 16172C [4].
[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
Wake up, he's is talking about one specimen out of 23
> Taf V19E and also talking about Taf 8
That is why when I ask you to look at the other alleles of all the other specimins you don't know what to do because Explorer didn't talk about most of the samples he is critiqing one of the assignments of one sample
quote:He continues:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
Originally posted by The Explorer, Africa Timeline
From the rather ambiguous assignments that they provide the reader throughout their report, it is estimated that at least one specimen could very well be a carrier of a hg L marker. The remains of this one individual with plausible "sub-Saharan" African ancestry,
This individual—designated as Taf VIII....
It is not inconceivable that Mesolithic Maghrebi groups [who do not appear to be ancestors of recent Maghreb Tamazight or "Berber" speaking groups based on cranial findings and genetic material] may have interacted and exchanged genes with geographically proximate groups that "back-migrated" into the African continent,
http://exploring-africa.blogspot.com/2010/05/Investigation-into-the-Mysterious-Epipaleolithic-Maghrebi.html#more
quote:In other word the above is made up B.S.
Originally posted by the lioness,:
In other words none of his remarks speak to the origin of haplogroup H
--but you keep acting like the origin of H is determined by alleles already present in Africa and he didn't say that, and you keep repeating this misinterpretation over and over and asking me to verify your wrong interpretation
Explorer's piece is a critique on Kefi's methods NOT an alternative view on the origin of Haplogroup H !!!
quote:When the authors say above that "none" of their Taforalt specimens were related to "sub-Sudanese", likely a euphemism for "sub-Saharan" Africans, they were not being frank, according to specifics of their very own report. From the rather ambiguous assignments that they provide the reader throughout their report, it is estimated that at least one specimen could very well be a carrier of a hg L marker. The remains of this one individual with plausible "sub-Saharan" African ancestry, appears as follows:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
In other words none of his remarks speak to the origin of haplogroup H
--but you keep acting like the origin of H is determined by alleles already present in Africa and he didn't say that, and you keep repeating this misinterpretation over and over and asking me to verify your wrong interpretation
Explorer's piece is a critique on Kefi's methods NOT an alternative view on the origin of Haplogroup H !!!
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
dup
quote:
Sequence
The noun: the order in which subunits appear in a chain, such as amino acids in a polypeptide or nucleotide bases in a dNA or rNA molecule.
The verb: To find out in what order the subunits appear in the chain.
quote:http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Genetic_polymorphism
Genetic polymorphism
Dictionary » G » Genetic polymorphism
Definition
noun
(1) The existence together of many forms of DNA sequences at a locus within the population.
(2) A discontinuous genetic variation that results in different forms or types of individuals among the members of a single species.
Supplement
Genetic polymorphism promotes diversity within a population. It often persists over many generations because no single form has an overall advantage or disadvantage over the others regarding natural selection. A common example is the different allelic forms that give rise to different blood types in humans.
quote:http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Allele
Allele
Dictionary » A » Allele
Definition
noun, plural: alleles
(genetics)
One member of a pair (or any of the series) of genes occupying a specific spot on a chromosome (called locus) that controls the same trait.
Supplement
For example, a pair of alleles controlling the same trait, i.e. eye color: one allele codes for blue eyes, another allele for brown eyes.
In humans, simple traits such as eye color may be caused by the interaction of only one pair of alleles. But for complex traits, such as height, they are usually caused by the interactions of series of alleles. Some alleles are dominant over other alleles, as in the case of heterozygous pairings (where paired alleles are different, in contrast to homozygous pairings where alleles are the same). In the above example, since the alleles code for different eye colors they are heterozygous.
Colloquially, the term gene is used when referring to an inherited trait that is usually accompanied by a phenotype as in ‘tall genes’ or ‘bad genes’ – but the more proper (scientific) term for this is allele.
Word origin: From German Allel, shortened from Allelomorph, from English allelomorph.
Related forms: allelic (adjective), biallelic (adjective), diallelic (adjective), monoallelic (adjective), allelism (noun), nonallelic (adjective).
Synonym: allelomorph.
quote:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm
Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote:--Victor A. Canfield et al.
Frequencies display strong population differentiation, with the derived light skin pigmentation allele (A111T) fixed or nearly so in all European pop- ulations and the ancestral allele predominant in sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia (Lamason et al. 2005; Norton et al. 2007).
[...]
Phased haplotypes were retrieved from HapMap, Release 21. For phylogenetic analysis, graphs were drawn by the use of a sim- ple nearest-neighbor approach and rooted by the use of ancestral alleles determined by comparison with other primate sequences.
[...]
"Of the remaining 10 common core haplotype groups, all ancestral at rs1426654, eight clearly have their origins in Africa (Figure 3B, Figure 4, and Table S4). Three early diverging haplotypes, C1, C2, and C4, are rare outside of Africa and clearly originated there."
"In the lineage containing the majority of haplotypes, each of the three branches, containing C5, C6-C7, and C8-C11, give strong evidence of having originated in Africa. C5 reaches its greatest abundance in West Africa and is rare outside of Africa. Within the other two branches, C6 and C9, which are the most common haplotypes in Africa, are also common worldwide, whereas C7 is abundant in East Asia and much less common but widespread in Africa. "
[...]
Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin. The most likely location for the origin of C11 is, therefore, within the region in which it is fixed or nearly so. As both models for the origin of C11 imply that C3 and C10 were present in ancestors of Europeans, the observed and inferred distributions of these autosomal haplotypes are consistent with the single-out-of- Africa hypothesis derived using uniparental markers (Oppenheimer 2003; Macaulay et al. 2005).
quote:.
Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
dup
quote:
Sequence
The noun: the order in which subunits appear in a chain, such as amino acids in a polypeptide or nucleotide bases in a dNA or rNA molecule.
The verb: To find out in what order the subunits appear in the chain.
quote:http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Genetic_polymorphism
Genetic polymorphism
Dictionary » G » Genetic polymorphism
Definition
noun
(1) The existence together of many forms of DNA sequences at a locus within the population.
(2) A discontinuous genetic variation that results in different forms or types of individuals among the members of a single species.
Supplement
Genetic polymorphism promotes diversity within a population. It often persists over many generations because no single form has an overall advantage or disadvantage over the others regarding natural selection. A common example is the different allelic forms that give rise to different blood types in humans.
As can seen above, and as Tukuler has mentioned many times. The polymorphisms sequenced by Tafi are synonyms with L types. Odd, umh?
- 16239T
16204C 16226T
16189C 16261T
16126C 16355T
16126C 16304C
16126C
16126C 16172C 16174T
16172C 16174T
16298T/C
16179T 16298T/C
16223T
quote:http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Allele
Allele
Dictionary » A » Allele
Definition
noun, plural: alleles
(genetics)
One member of a pair (or any of the series) of genes occupying a specific spot on a chromosome (called locus) that controls the same trait.
Supplement
For example, a pair of alleles controlling the same trait, i.e. eye color: one allele codes for blue eyes, another allele for brown eyes.
In humans, simple traits such as eye color may be caused by the interaction of only one pair of alleles. But for complex traits, such as height, they are usually caused by the interactions of series of alleles. Some alleles are dominant over other alleles, as in the case of heterozygous pairings (where paired alleles are different, in contrast to homozygous pairings where alleles are the same). In the above example, since the alleles code for different eye colors they are heterozygous.
Colloquially, the term gene is used when referring to an inherited trait that is usually accompanied by a phenotype as in ‘tall genes’ or ‘bad genes’ – but the more proper (scientific) term for this is allele.
Word origin: From German Allel, shortened from Allelomorph, from English allelomorph.
Related forms: allelic (adjective), biallelic (adjective), diallelic (adjective), monoallelic (adjective), allelism (noun), nonallelic (adjective).
Synonym: allelomorph.
quote:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140126134643.htm
Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
quote:--Victor A. Canfield et al.
Frequencies display strong population differentiation, with the derived light skin pigmentation allele (A111T) fixed or nearly so in all European pop- ulations and the ancestral allele predominant in sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia (Lamason et al. 2005; Norton et al. 2007).
[...]
Phased haplotypes were retrieved from HapMap, Release 21. For phylogenetic analysis, graphs were drawn by the use of a sim- ple nearest-neighbor approach and rooted by the use of ancestral alleles determined by comparison with other primate sequences.
[...]
"Of the remaining 10 common core haplotype groups, all ancestral at rs1426654, eight clearly have their origins in Africa (Figure 3B, Figure 4, and Table S4). Three early diverging haplotypes, C1, C2, and C4, are rare outside of Africa and clearly originated there."
"In the lineage containing the majority of haplotypes, each of the three branches, containing C5, C6-C7, and C8-C11, give strong evidence of having originated in Africa. C5 reaches its greatest abundance in West Africa and is rare outside of Africa. Within the other two branches, C6 and C9, which are the most common haplotypes in Africa, are also common worldwide, whereas C7 is abundant in East Asia and much less common but widespread in Africa. "
[...]
Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin. The most likely location for the origin of C11 is, therefore, within the region in which it is fixed or nearly so. As both models for the origin of C11 imply that C3 and C10 were present in ancestors of Europeans, the observed and inferred distributions of these autosomal haplotypes are consistent with the single-out-of- Africa hypothesis derived using uniparental markers (Oppenheimer 2003; Macaulay et al. 2005).
Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection
Bye bye...
quote:Ok, I misinterpreted you. I assumed you were focusing on the polymorphisms.
Originally posted by Tukuler:
Just to be clear and precise about my possible
L's in Kefi's chart, I based myself on her given
"sequences" not on stand alone polymorphisms.
I underlined, bolded, and italicized Ish's
list but but don't expect the PussyPuss to
get it since he didn't as much as know the
diff between a sample's sequence and the
supposed range of tested locations. I say
'supposed' because perusal of Kefi's report
shows not every location of a span was observable.
Thing is, in certain cases her 'sequences'
are no more than a single location and
never more longer than three such.
quote:--Kefi
Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA : Human population phylogenetic studies using mithochondrial DNA Dr Rym KEFI MIGOD- Institut Pasteur -Tunis Slide2: Plan: I- Introduction II- Example: Phylogenetic and Neandertal enigma. II- Example I: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (12,000 years- Morocco). Slide3: The main aim of Human population genetics is to find answers concerning: Introduction Differentiation in single population (Bertranpetit et al 1995; Ann Hum Genet) Slide4: the migration patterns in certain geographic areas. Slide5: human evolution, and the spread of modern humans (Richards et al 1996, Am J Hum Genet ) Slide6: Mitochondrial DNA an important tool for Human population genetics Slide7: The studies of mtDNA polymorphism in human populations were based: initially on restriction enzyme (RFLP) analysis : Low resolution restriction and high resolution restriction mapping (Horai et al 1984, Johnson et al 1983, Horai et al 1984, Cann et al 1987, Torroni et al 1993 ) , Brown and Wallace in 1970: Pioneers in mtDNA investigation Mitochondrial DNA Studies history: Slide8: on combined method using sequence analysis and restriction mapping (Bertranpetit et al 1995, Vigilant et al 1991, Richards et al 1996, Richards et al 1998, Macaulay 1999, Torroni et al 2001, Maca-Meyer et al 2001, Salas et al 2002) on sequence analysis of the mtDNA control region Slide9: Mitochondrial Eve Cann et al; Nature 1987 147 individuals from five geographic populations: Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia, New Guinea have been analysed by high-resolution restriction mapping Slide10: Different mtDNA lineages have been diverged from an ancestral women originated in Africa. Mitochondrial Eve Slide11: RFLPs studies of mtDNA from a wide range of Human populations have revealed a number of stable polymorphic sites in the mtDNA coding region .
Mutations observed in both mtDNA coding region and control region in modern human populations have occurred on these pre-existing haplogroups Define the individual mtDNA type or haplotypes Define related groups of mtDNA called haplogroups Slide12: Alignment of sequences with mtDNA reference (CRS) using “Blast 2 sequences” Haplotype and Haplogroup + RFLP analysis Slide13: Examples : Individual 1: Slide14: Mitochondrial haplogroups Slide15: The phylogenetic relationships between haplotypes were inferred in the first studies by Maximum parsimony tree Then by Neighbor- joining trees Later by Median joining network. Trees were based on distance data calculated from Nucleotide sequence or RFLPs data or Nucleotide sequence combined with RFLPs data. Slide16: Macaulay et al, 1999; , Am J Hum Genet, Slide17: Dr Rym KEFI and Dr Eliane BERAUD-COLOMB U600 INSERM-FRE2059 CNRS Laboratoire d'Immunologie, Hôpital de Sainte-Marguerite- Marseille- France Example I: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (12,000 years- Morocco).
Slide18: Knowledge of the settlement of Northern Africa region Study of molecular diversity of modern Human populations Study of archaeological specimens and their environment Slide19: Anthropologic data Transition from Homo erectus towards Homo sapiens archaic Slide20: Ibero-Maurusian man Ibero-Maurusian industry Slide22: Ibero-maurusian man 1-Europian origin? (Vallois 1969, Ferembach 1985) 2- Near East origin ? (Vandermeersch 1978) 4- North African origin ? (Camps 1989, Dutour 1995) 3- Subsaharian origin? (Ferembach 1976) Origins ??? Slide23: Ancestral indigenous component: U6- (Paleolithic: 45.000 years) Eurasiatic component: T, H, U, J…(Neolithic?: 9000 years) Sub-Saharan component : L (Historic?) Former studies
(Neolithic?: 9000 years) Sub-Saharan component : L (Historic?) Former studies using Mitochondrial DNA (Côrte-Real et al. 1996; Rando et al. 1998; Comas et al. 2000; Brakez et al. 2001; Esteban et al. 2004…) showed that the genetic structure of North Africa is composed of 3 components: Genetic data Slide24: to contribute to the knowledge of North Africa settlement We proposed to analyse the mitochondrial DNA diversity of the prehistoric population from Taforalt (13,000 years BP- Morocco).
Aim: Slide25: The cave of Taforalt in Morocco The cave of Taforalt is Located at 55 km in the North-West of Oujda Slide26: Ancient DNA was extracted from 31 bone remains from Taforalt Phenol/Chloroforme Extraction Dissolution of bone powders ADN Hypervariable segment 1 (HVS1) of control region (D-Loop) was amplified by PCR and sequenced (R. Kefi et al; C.R.Palévol 2003) Slide27: Mitochondrial DNA diversity of Taforalt population Genetic structure of Taforalt: Eurasiatic Component : H, U, JT, V: 90,5% North African component: U6: 9,5% In modern Human population, JT is presents only in: 1,6% Berbers from the North of Morocco 1,8% of Sicilians, 1,6% of Italians. Slide28: The genetic inheritance of Taforalt population (12,000 years) is composed of: Eurasiatic component (J/T, H, U et V) North African component (U6). Similarities between Taforalt and Moroccan populations (Berbers from the North of Morocco) Underline a genetic continuity Slide29: Ibero-maurusian Origin 4- local origin ? (Camps 1989, Dutour 1995) 3- Sub-Saharan origin? (Ferembach 1976) 1-European origin? (Vallois 1969, Ferembach 1985) 2- Near East origin ? (Vandermeersch 1978) Kefi et al 2005 Anthropologie ; Xliii/1: 55-64 Slide30: Phylogenetic and Neandertal enigma Example 2: Neandertal lived in Europe and west Asia between 150.000 and 30.000 years (Grimaud–Hervé et al 2001, Klein et al 2003) Neandertal has specific morphological characters (lengthened Cranium, presence of Taurus on orbits , big cranial capacity...) which distinguish him from the anatomically modern man Neandertal coexisted with anatomically modern man, before disappearing 30.000 years ago Slide31: Many interrogations about the role of Neandertal in the Human evolution.
Neandertal is he our ancestor? Did he contribute in our genetic inheritance? or did he disappear without leaving any trace in our genome? Homo Sapiens sapiens Homo neandertalensis Did he belongs to another species? Slide32: Krings and collaborators (Krings et al. 1997, Cell) studied for the first time ancient DNA extracted from Neandertal humerus. Neandertal was discovered in West Germany. 377 bp Neandertal sequence was aligned with CRS (Cambridge reference sequence). The alignment shows 27 differences (24 transitions, 2 tranversions, 1 deletion) Ancient bone DNA Slide33: Neandertal sequence was compared to 994 mt DNA sequences from the five continents.
The difference between the Modern Man and Neandertal is higher than the intra specific diversity in Modern Human specie. Slide34: indicates that Neandertal position is distinct from the group including all the Modern Human sequences. NJ tree constructed with 986 modern Human mt DNA sequences, 16 chimpanzee sequences and Neandertal sequence Slide35: These results show that Neandertal is not the ancestor of the modern Human. Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo neandertalensis constitute two distinct species. Homo sapiens sapiens Homo neandertalensis Slide36: Marseille
