quote:

---

The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

---

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
.

.
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.



Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).


If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%.
Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine.
The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

References:
Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616

Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543
Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Great analysis.

Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Great analysis.

Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Great analysis.

Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.

---

Did you read what Clyde said?
The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

---

^^^1,300 years ago

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Great analysis.

Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.

---

Did you read what Clyde said?
The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

---

^^^1,300 years ago

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

What I mean is the spread via the Iberia, into Europe. Rather the date and stamp time in difference is another issue. But considering all evidence, this most likely seems to be the case.

---

The La Braña 1 mtDNA haplotype was an U5b2c1

The thread topic is haplogroup H

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

Africans inhabited that region long before any modern Spaniard lived there, anyway. So, as a matter of fact the Moors re-colonized the region.

---

quote:

---

This suggests a remarkable genetic uniformity and little phylogeographic structure over a large geographic area of the pre-Neolithic populations. Using Approximate Bayesian Computation, a model of genetic continuity from Mesolithic to Neolithic populations is poorly supported. Furthermore, analyses of 1.34% and 0.53% of their nuclear genomes, containing about 50,000 and 20,000 ancestry informative SNPs, respectively, show that these two Mesolithic individuals are not related to current populations from either the Iberian Peninsula or Southern Europe.

[...]

Indicate that La Bran ̃ a specimens (Figure 1) belong to the U5b haplotype (16192T-16270T).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:


Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).


If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%.
Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine.
The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

References:
Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616

Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543
Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf

---

quote:

---

All the haplogroup H mtDNAs found in 5,743 subjects from 43 populations were then screened for diagnostic markers of subhaplogroups H1 and H3. This survey showed that both subhaplogroups display frequency peaks, centered in Iberia and surrounding areas, with distributions declining toward the northeast and southeast—a pattern extremely similar to that previously reported for mtDNA haplogroup V.


Furthermore, the coalescence ages of H1 and H3 (~11,000 years) are close to that previously reported for V. These findings have major implications for the origin of Europeans, since they attest that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area was indeed the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated much of Central and Northern Europe from ~15,000 years ago.


[...]

As a result, it is likely that the dissection of H into subhaplogroups of younger age might reveal previously unidentified spatial frequency patterns, which in turn could be correlated to prehistoric and historical migratory events. However, until now, haplogroup H has been only partially resolved genealogically (Herrnstadt et al. 2002) allowing for the identification of 11 subclades (H1–H11) (Quintáns et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004), the phylogeography of which has been evaluated only in rare instances (Tambets et al. 2004). Therefore, the objective of this study is to provide new information concerning the molecular dissection of haplogroup H and to determine whether its subhaplogroups do indeed show such spatial patterns.

To achieve this objective, the first step consisted in the complete sequencing of 62 mtDNAs performed as described by Torroni et al. (2001b). Fifty-four of the mtDNAs that were chosen for complete sequencing harbored −7025 AluI and −14766 MseI, two well-known diagnostic RFLP markers of haplogroup H. In addition, for the choice of these mtDNAs, we also took into account the nature and extent of the sequence variation observed in a preliminary sequence analysis restricted to the control region; the objective being to include the widest possible range of haplogroup H internal variation. The remaining eight mtDNAs were chosen because the RFLP analysis and control-region sequencing had suggested that they belonged to haplogroups that were closely related to H. Thus, their complete sequences would allow the definition of the branching order of the entire superhaplogroup HV.

[...]

quote:

---

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=1182122_AJHGv75p910fg1.jpg

Figure 1
Most-parsimonious tree of complete (pre-HV)1, HV*, HV1, pre-V, and H mtDNA sequences. The tree, rooted in haplogroup R, includes 62 mtDNAs (1–62) sequenced in this study and illustrates subhaplogroup affiliations. Phylogeny construction was performed ...

---

quote:

---

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=1182122_AJHGv75p910fg2.jpg


Figure 2
Geographical locations of populations surveyed for haplogroup H (top) and its spatial frequency distribution (bottom). Frequency values for populations 1–43 are from table 1, whereas those for populations 44–63 are from the literature, ...

---

[...]

Finally, to determine whether the haplotype shared by the nine mtDNAs could, by itself, play a role in the expression of the A1555G mutation, we analyzed in detail its shared mutations: A93G, A95C, and T8258C. The first two (93 and 95C) are located in the control region, and their association is sporadically seen in other Eurasian haplogroups but very frequently in some African haplogroups—for example, in L0a, L1c, and L2c (Alves-Silva et al. 2000; Ingman et al. 2000; Mishmar et al. 2003)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Great analysis.

Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.

---

Did you read what Clyde said?
The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
Great analysis.

Especially with the recent findings on the remains of Brana. It fits perfectly. And makes it the most likely scenario.

---

Did you read what Clyde said?
The 7,000 year old La Brana remains don't fit in at all to Clyde's theory on the spread of H into Europe>>The La Braña 1 mtDNA haplotype was an U5b2c1

The thread topic is haplogroup H

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

---

.
__________________________________________________^^^


In other words looking at the above frequencies of Haplgroup H in Europe today, just on the basis of this one haplogroup, so called modern "white" H carrier Europeans, are nearing half recent African. This fits in with what xyyman has been saying. I'll have to ponder this
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

---

Clyde look at this modern day Germans are primarily African
Look

mtDNA
African H 44.8%

African U5 5.8%


Y DNA
African R1b about 40%


This proves that the Vandals have little or no relation to the modern day Germans
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

---

Clyde look at this modern day Germans are primarily African
Look

mtDNA
African H 44.8%

African U5 5.8%


Y DNA
African R1b about 40%


This proves that the Vandals have little or no relation to the modern day Germans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marc Washington:
Below is a Medieval Moorish wall tapestry followed by two web pages which are details taken from it.


http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-800-00-18a.html



http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-800-00-18c.html



http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Pottery.Boats.Ruins/02-16-800-00-18g.html

There seems to be a certain lack of transparency found in academia where it does not convey the truth concerning the transformation that changed the black Europe of the first Celts, Guals, and Moors into the Italo-Franco-Germanic-Slavic Europe of today. A case in point was when Runoko Rashidi called me before he arrived in Budapest last summer while I was still there asking if I could share my knowledge of the city with him. I did and was happy to when we met there. After finishing with the museums of Budapest, he invited me to accompany him to Bratislava in Slovakia and of course I was delighted to go. It was at a museum there that I came across the magazine with a cover depicting the diminuitive negrito population of Slovenia as the Medieval Christian before the era of Germans and Slavs: pre-15th century.


http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/AfricanEcclesiasticalCommunityInBratislavaDuringMedievalTimes.html

But, while Bratislava was once wholly (by phenotype) African before the Italo-Franco-German-Slav Migration Periods, we saw just one single black person while we were there. And today’s church hierarchy and church congregations are all white.

It is the same story with Spain. Tiffany Ruby Patterson, in The Appearance and Disappearance of Moors in Spain: What Color Were They? writes of the lack of transparency in showing the truth about the transformation of Europe from Moorish African to European – some would say from black to white. She writes:

What was left at the end of the fifteenth century was the residue of a Moorish presence in the material culture, the bitter taste of racist rage, and the beginning of a carefully crafted effort to erase the memory of Moorish Spain. That effort began with a search for a “purity of blood” through a whitening of “Moors” and “Zephardic” Jews at the moment of another conquest, that of the Americas, and beginnings of the Atlantic slave trade.

http://www.best.uni-mainz.de/modules/AMS/article.php?storyid=136

Black images, history, and religion were erased in Europe and transformed into white; and today’s world is virtually amnesiac about the process and feels that the opposite of what really happened is truth – i.e. they feel whites were always in Europe as they have bought into the comfortable propaganda – e.g. A white Mary and Jesus when the original virgin for many thousands of years previous was, as you all know, African:



We have seen the metamorphosis of things once African that have become white. Did this also happen with the Celts and Moors providing the Medieval village and city templates for later white Europe as did Isis and Horus provide the template for the Virgin Mary and Jesus? Below is a Medieval Celt village - the oldest English village plan in existence showing its (by phenotype) African inhabitants as does the Medieval German estate show Moorish inhabitants and foreshadow post 15th century Europe.


http://www.beforebc.de/Made.by.Humankind/Pottery.Boats.Ruins/59-10-6-10.html

The Celts and Black-a-Moors may be with us more than we know. In things good, they are the spirit behind Europe.


.
.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

---

Clyde look at this modern day Germans are primarily African
Look

mtDNA
African H 44.8%

African U5 5.8%


Y DNA
African R1b about 40%


This proves that the Vandals have little or no relation to the modern day Germans

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

No really. These figures may just reflect the Moorish influence in Spain.




http://www.beforebc.de/all_europe/02-16-800-00-18a.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa.
[...]
If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
[...]
The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, ...

---

.
You write as if frequency is the prime
and only way to determine origin when
of course it is not. It is the weakest.

Greatest diversity and presence of
paragroup are the top two means to
get at haplogroup origins although
frequency is an aid.

Were we to go by your idea frequency
alone would rule out mtDNA Hg's M N
and R from African origin. You can't
have it both ways. If your frequency
criteria makes H African it makes M
N and R non-African.


Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the
Near East has the highest H* frequency.
She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes
(H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity
in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."


* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency

are all highest in the Near East too.

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Also from an anthropoligcal perspective "Near East" includes Anatolia not just the Levant and I had read that some researchers believe H originated there
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
One must see what each author
means by their use of Near East.
In this instance I don't think
NE includes Anatolia.

I think that here NE applies to
Afroasia, i.e., the Levant and
Iraq. Will have to check Ennafaa
Additional file 2 to be sure. Looks
to be Jordan, Dead Sea, Palestine,
Syria, and Iran judging by AF1's
caption.

Europeans can't seem to decide
if Anatolia is Europe or Asia
and at which time periods to
apply the one or the other.

But then of course we expect you
to do anything to lessen accord
with the non-Europe world and
bolster Eurocentric hegemony
over everything PussyPuss.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa.
[...]
If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
[...]
The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, ...

---

.
You write as if frequency is the prime
and only way to determine origin when
of course it is not. It is the weakest.

Greatest diversity and presence of
paragroup are the top two means to
get at haplogroup origins although
frequency is an aid.

Were we to go by your idea frequency
alone would rule out mtDNA Hg's M N
and R from African origin. You can't
have it both ways. If your frequency
criteria makes H African it makes M
N and R non-African.

---

I never use frequency of a haplogroup as the sole measure for my views on the origin of a haplogroup, I also use other archaeogenetic markers including craniometrics, archaeology and linguistics.

The presence of a paragroup is not always the top mean to determine a haplogroup origin , unless it benefits Europeans. A good example was R1-M173, the pristine form is found in Africa, but Europeans claim R1 originated in Eurasia, when V88 is the oldest R1 clade and R-M269 exist throughout Africa across African linguistic and ethnic groups.

Greatest diversity is not always a good measure of origin because the location of a particular ethnic group may not be representative of the history of that group for example, researchers have situated the original homeland of the Bantu in West Africa, due to the variety of Bantu languages in the area when in reality the Bantu expanded from the Nile Valley into West and Southern Africa. Moreover, the greatest diversity of genomes is in Cameroon but it is never recognized as an origin area for any haplogroup.

Other researchers claim the M haplogroup originated in India because, of the variety of M haplogroups in South Asia. But the Dravidian speakers who demonstrate this variety belonged to the C-Group in Africa and only entered India 4.5kya. This along with M1 spread throughout Africa, supports an African origin for hg M.





Haplogroup N, according to ancient mtDNA (amtDNA) was first found in Eurasia among Aurignacian people. The Aurignacians were Khoisan who crossed the Straits of Morocco to enter Western Europe. Since they took N into Iberia this haplogroup had to have originated in Africa.

We can believe that haplogroup R probably originated in Africa because V88 is older than R-M269. In addition, R-M269 is spread throughout Africa and carried among many Africans that could not have admixed with "Europeans", including Khoisan.In addition, whereas there is no history of an Eurasian invasion of Africa, we do know that the Kushites who spoke Niger-Congo languages and carried haplogroup R did invade Eurasia.

In summary greatest diversity and paragroup means are not a good indicator for a haplogroup's origin. There is also great diversity of hg M in Africa.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Nice lead Dr. Winters. As you can see M is found throughout Africa.

This is the first paper I have seen showing such high frequency and diversity in West Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin basd upon the geographic pattern.

Toronni and Achilli BS their way into popularity with their hypothesis of hg-H having an Iberian origin. The Refugia Theory. Of course this is fast falling out of favor and popularity. Ennaffa proposed an Arabia/Near East for H1 but and African origin for H3….based upon diveristy. With Achilli et al did their work(based upon frequency). The dataset for Africans were not as complete as it is now. The current dataset rules OUT Europe as the origin og hg-H.

I always said that frequency is NOT the end all of origin. H has an African origin. See my therad on ESR.
Haplotype diversity and up-stream clades are much better indicators. As it stands right now, all evidence included, Africa has the edge over Arabia for hg-H origin. Why?

The recent work by Kefi(2014) will even further help resolve that question. From her abstract both H1 and H3 seem to have an AFRICAN origin.

Time will tell. The lies cannot be upheld much longer. Everyone has a "DNA machine"

---

The "lie" can last as long as Europeans want it to last.They will just change the name of hg H in Africa to confuse the picture, like what they did in changing R1 in Africa, into V88. Overtime people will not recognize any relationship between R1 clades still called R1 when they exist in Eurasia, and V88.

Europeans are doing everything they can to destroy the OoA theory. They seek to make it appear that Europeans are a unique group.

The key to understanding the history of mtDNA and Y-chromosomes is knowledge of Khoisan genetics. Presently, Eurpeans are trying to maintain the Hamitic myth by claiming that L3(M,N) expanded across Eurasia from East Africa. This may be the jumping off point for these groups, but it would appear that the population(s) carrying these haplogroups came from Southern Africa. For example, the Arabia and Indian tool kits associated with the OoA dating to 60-50kya belong to the Howiesons Poort technologies (see supporting information for Mellars, initial Genetic and archaeological perspectives on the modern human colonization of southern Asia,PNAS).

This supports the view that Khoisan, carried L3(M,N) over 60kya. A view supported by the Grimaldi/Cro-Magnon people of the Aurignacian culture who took haplogroup N into Eurasia.




.

quote:

---

The N lineage is believed to have entered Eurasia via the continental route out of Africa [1]. This hypothesis has been disputed by some researchers [2] because hg N is found in India [3] and Australia [4-5]. This has led to some researchers assuming that there was a single migration of hgs M and N out of Africa [4-8].
Haplogroup N originated in Africa.

There was a serial expansion of haplogroup N across Africa into Eurasia [28]. This haplogroup probably originated in East Africa near the great Lakes region around 93.4kya [28]. From Tanzania, Khoisan speaking people probably spread the haplogroup into Ethiopia 80kya and into West Africa 80kya [28]. Sometime before 40kya carriers of haplogroup N from Cameroon and possibly the Senegambia migrated across the Straits of Gibraltar into Iberia [28]. The Khoisan speakers probably spread the Aurignacian culture throughout Europe [14].

As a result, of the early demic diffusion of haplogroup N across Africa before the first anatomically modern humans (AMH) exited Africa 60kya [28], N haplogroups are found throughout Africa. Haplogroups N,N*, N1 and N1a are found within Sub-Saharan groups including Senegambians [9], Tanzanians [10] and modern Ethiopians [11]. Carriers of haplogroup N in Africa speak various languages including Khoisan, Cushitic, Niger-Congo, Afrasian and Nilo-Saharan. In East Africa, we find that 85.5% of the Sub-Saharan African population carry N1 clades, while 14.5% carry one the N subhaplogroup in West Africa. In Egypt 8.8 percent of the Gurma carry hg N1b [12].
The Great Lakes region of East Africa was the center for the spread of haplogroup N across Africa [28]. As a result, it is not surprising to find that African N1a mtDNA haplotypes (minus 16000) include 147G-172-223-248-355 in Tanzania and Ethiopia [1a]. These mtDNA haplotypes are also found in Saudi Arabia, Greece, Russia and Yemen [1a]. The South Indian mtDNA N1a haplotypes (minus 16000) include 147G-172-223-248-295-355 and 147G-172-209-203-248-355 [1a].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin basd upon the geographic pattern.

---

xyyman, Germans are carry H at 44.8% mtDNA

When do you think they acquired this?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

---

Do you agree with this?
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

.

.
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin basd upon the geographic pattern.

---

[IMG]

xyyman, Germans are carry H at 44.8% mtDNA

When do you think they acquired this?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

---

Do you agree with this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I always speculated that MtDNA Haplogroup H has an African origin based upon the geographic pattern.

---

xyyman, Germans are carry H at 44.8% mtDNA

When do you think they acquired this?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

---

Do you agree with this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

When? H has entered Europe about 5KYa as most aDNA studies have showed. Prior to that European females were the older hg-U.

Europe male line, R-M269 S116 etc entered Europe about 1000BC,

---

quote:

---

Although the study's main focus was on Africa, ishkoff and her colleagues studied DNA markers from around the planet, identifying 14 "ancestral clusters" for all of humanity. Nine of those clusters are in Africa. "You're seeing more diversity in one continent than across the globe," Tishkoff said.

---

quote:

---

For many of the individuals for which we have obtained DNA, we also collected phenotype data for traits likely to play a role in adaptation, some of which demonstrate a complex pattern of inheritance and are likely influenced by multiple loci and environmental factors. In addition to case/control analyses of variation at candidate genes, we are using whole-genome association studies to identify novel genes that are associated with these traits. Together with collaborators, we are also developing methods for mapping complex traits (including disease) in highly structured African populations.

---

quote:

---

Africa is the birthplace of modern humans, and is the source of the geographic expansion of ancestral populations into other regions of the world.

Indigenous Africans are characterized by high levels of genetic diversity within and between populations. The pattern of genetic variation in these populations has been shaped by demographic events occurring over the last 200,000 years.

The dramatic variation in climate, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent has also resulted in novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations in extant Africans.

This review summarizes some recent advances in our understanding of the demographic history and selective pressures that have influenced levels and patterns of diversity in African populations.

Africa not only has the highest levels of human genetic variation in the world but also contains a considerable amount of linguistic, environmental and cultural diversity. For example, more than 2,000 distinct ethno-linguistic groups, representing nearly a third of the world’s languages, currently exist in Africa

The timing and duration of some of these demographic events were often correlated with known major environmental changes and/or cultural developments in Africa [6].

A number of novel genetic and phenotypic adaptations have also evolved in Africans in response to dramatic variation in environment, diet, and exposure to infectious disease across the continent.

In some cases, these adaptations have occurred in the last several thousand years, exemplifying the ongoing evolution of human populations.

Thus, present-day patterns of variation in African genomes are a product of both demographic and selective events.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Clyde please, you just used frequency exclusively
out of all genetic indicators of origin. Rhetoric
is fine but you produce no cases where diversity,
paragroup, and frequency combined do not indicate
haplogroup origin. Diversity is probably number
one and cannot be gainsaid when various measures
of diversity all point to one region as in the
case of haplogroup H originating in the "Near
East" (technically far northeast Africa or the
African Extension as I sometimes call it).

None of the non-genetic measures you propose can
tell the origin of a haplogroup. What they can do
is suggest origins of a people but never a genetic marker.

---

This is your opinion. Your comment does not compute. People carry genome, as a result you can not separate a population=people from the haplogroups they carry.

You don't know what you're talking about. You can't support any ancient population migration or origin without non-genetic markers. Without ancient mtDNA dated to a particular period any population and haplogroup origin is pure conjecture. That's why the dating of a haplogroup is based on guesstimation via statistical modeling. That's why different statistical models lead to varying origin dates for a haplogroup. Below is the Sores data. Check out how Sores makes sure that he does not make the origin of L3(M,N) older than the proposed OoA event.





How many articles have you published on population genetics. My methods are the same as anyone else doing archaeogenetics.

.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Start making sense. No people or population
carries one and only one haplogroup nor is
any basal haplogroup limited to one people
or population.

C'mon man you're not a population geneticist
nor are you a molecular biologist so don't
grandstand your out of your field publication.
What you write is the same as what I write, a
layman's opinion, nothing more nothing less.

And that name in your chart is spelled Soares.

Emotionalism aside you've yet to overturn any of this

• Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the
  Near East has the highest H* frequency.
  She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes
  (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity
  in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."
  
  
  * Number of different haplotypes
  * unique haplotypes
  * haplotype diversity
  * unique haplotype frequency
  
  are all highest in the Near East too.
  

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Start making sense. No people or population
carries one and only one haplogroup nor is
any basal haplogroup limited to one people
or population.

C'mon man you're not a population geneticist
nor are you a molecular biologist so don't
grandstand your out of your field publication.
What you write is the same as what I write, a
layman's opinion, nothing more nothing less.

And that name in your chart is spelled Soares.

Emotionalism aside you've yet to overturn any of this

• Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the
  Near East has the highest H* frequency.
  She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes
  (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity
  in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."
  
  
  * Number of different haplotypes
  * unique haplotypes
  * haplotype diversity
  * unique haplotype frequency
  
  are all highest in the Near East too.
  

When and if you bring similar African H
data published by degreed professional
molecular biologists/population geneticists
that counters the above then you will have
a legitimate case.

Meanwhile, haplogroup H probably did not originate in continental Africa.

---

I have already published data that proves you're wrong in an earlier post. The Tables you published above are dated. They were published in 2009. The Ennafaa data is 4 years old. They do not reflect the up-to-date data provided by Badro et al (2013).




Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.



Your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Again you've based yourself solely on frequency
and blithely ignored all other genetic factors.


Badro's Libyan Sahara figure is from Ottoni
whose study came out the same year as
Ennafaa who apparently was more thorough
and did include that frequency which is for
H1 not H. Ottoni's LS freq is valid but only
considers Tuareg not all of the Libyan Sahara.
Note that Ennafaa has a higher Sahara H1 freq
than Ottoni reports.

Familiarity with several sources pays.

Haplogroup H probably originated in the Near East --not continental Africa.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I have already published data that proves you're wrong in an earlier post. The Tables you published above are dated. They were published in 2009. The Ennafaa data is 4 years old. They do not reflect the up-to-date data provided by Badro et al (2013).




Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.

---

This map doesn't support your conclusion at all since Iberia is not shown on the map having Haplogroup H.
Even in the article this map comes from, apart from a citation in the references, the article does not even mention Iberia or Spain.

You would have to have some other article that at least mentions Iberia to relate to your point
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Western Europe no doubt includes Iberia.

What the map doesn't do is support spread
or direction of spread. What the map does
is graph frequencies.


EDIT: whoops
France represents Western Europe mtDNA, and is labelled “Western Europe” throughout the rest of this report.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
The Europeans are stubbornly “sticking to their story”. Although the genetic evidence are continuously showing their ancestral African population are peoples that migrated via North Africa to Iberia and Italy. It was NOT through the Levant.

@ Sage/TP and others interested- I recently re-examined this paper.

Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective- U. Roostalu,T. Kivisild, R. Villems*- .

Several things I and maybe others missed the first time around.

1. MtDNA hg-H1 with high resolution is devided into H1a, H1b etc. The Levant population do NOT carry the European version of H1. Implying that the Levant/Near East was NOT the source of European H1.
2. H13 and other sub-clades of hg-H is much much older than H1 and H3. Furthermore H13 is absent in Western Europe but has highest frequency in the Arabian region.

Significance? Only with a comprehensive fine resolution of analysis of mtDNA hg-H will the origin be resolved. Kefi? Point is, assigning an origin for H1 to Near East to Europe may be premature. Curiously North Africa was NOT included in this paper. Although the paper suggest that Europe and the Near East/Arabia had DIFFERENT sources for mtDNA hg-H since their hg-H high resolution makeup is different. Time will tell.
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
IIRC Ennaffa had the age of these sub-clades much young eg H-11-H-21 at about 11kyo. Irregradless the fact is the distribution pattern concur with Roostalu et al. H-11-H21 predominates in the Arabian region while H1-H6 predominates in Western Europe compared to the Arabian region. On the other hand North Africa has an appreciable frequency of BOTH groups of sub-clades. Significance? North Africa was either the recipient of both European AND Arabian female gene flow or North Africa was the source population for both Europe and the Arabian region(sounds like Basal Eurasian SNP to me). Again, this is where Kefi’s paper will help clarify things.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The Europeans are stubbornly “sticking to their story”. Although the genetic evidence are continuously showing their ancestral African population are peoples that migrated via North Africa to Iberia and Italy. It was NOT through the Levant.

@ Sage/TP and others interested- I recently re-examined this paper.

Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective- U. Roostalu,T. Kivisild, R. Villems*- .

Several things I and maybe others missed the first time around.

1. MtDNA hg-H1 with high resolution is devided into H1a, H1b etc. The Levant population do NOT carry the European version of H1. Implying that the Levant/Near East was NOT the source of European H1.
2. H13 and other sub-clades of hg-H is much much older than H1 and H3. Furthermore H13 is absent in Western Europe but has highest frequency in the Arabian region.

Significance? Only with a comprehensive fine resolution of analysis of mtDNA hg-H will the origin be resolved. Kefi? Point is, assigning an origin for H1 to Near East to Europe may be premature. Curiously North Africa was NOT included in this paper....


Fulani shared a unique haplotype within mtDNA hg-U found in Northern Europeans.
Europeans are a sub-set of Africans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


Indeed Germans are effectively African on the genetic level

---

at your rebuttal.

Anyway, how come there is a different genetic structure amongst Germans?

quote:

---

The scientists recovered 1.34 percent and 0.5 percent of the human genomes from the bones of these two cave men. Analyses revealed that current populations of the Iberian Peninsula, which includes Spain, Portugal and Andorra, are not genetically linked with these ancient hunter-gatherers. Instead, these cavemen were closer genetically to the current populations of northern Europe.

"There are many works that claim the Basques [of the Iberian Peninsula] could be descendants from Mesolithics that became isolated in the Basque country," Lalueza-Fox said. "We found the modern Basques are genetically not related to these two individuals."

The scientists also recovered the complete mitochondrial DNA of one of these cavemen. This revealed that European populations during the Mesolithic were very uniform genetically.

"Despite their geographical distance, individuals from the regions corresponding to the current England, Germany, Lithuania, Poland and Spain shared the same mitochondrial lineage," Lalueza-Fox said. "These hunters-gatherers shared nomadic habits and had a common origin."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
at your rebuttal.

Anyway, how come there is a different genetic structure amongst Germans? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Western Europe no doubt includes Iberia.

What the map doesn't do is support spread
or direction of spread. What the map does
is graph frequencies.


EDIT: whoops
France represents Western Europe mtDNA, and is labelled “Western Europe” throughout the rest of this report.

---

The map's graph of frequencies can be used to make inferences about the spread of hg H.




The Badro et al (2013) map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg H into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.



I repeat, your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. You have a right to your opinion, but, Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.

.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The Europeans are stubbornly “sticking to their story”. Although the genetic evidence are continuously showing their ancestral African population are peoples that migrated via North Africa to Iberia and Italy. It was NOT through the Levant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Some still [laymen] insist on using frequency despite the flaws there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I repeat, your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. You have a right to your opinion, but, Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
You can repeat yourself forever for whatever its worth.

You haven't shown where or how Badro supercedes Ennafaa.

You're ignoring Badro's sources and their date.

Not only that you don't seem to realize your
Badro table has nothing to do with diversity
or paragroup.

Again just frequency.


Ennafaa shows diversity paragroup and frequency and
lists stats for several H sub-clades unlike Badro's.

3 types of evidence vs one. 3:1

But of course you don't care about none of that.

For you its just H is African and if it don't fit you'll force it.

Talk about sticking to a story.

Yeah I know, any hg found in Africa originates in Africa, NOT!

---

You are correct any haplogroup found in Africa of so-called Western European or Levant origin ,probably originated in Africa. As long as the archaeology places Africans in Eurasia when a haplogroup originated we must assume it is of African origin. Europeans only appear in Western Eurasia 1200BC, so caucasians can not be the originators of any haplogroup.

I will repeat it. You have proven nothing. There are also varying clades of hg H in Africa.

The Badro map's graph of frequencies can be used to make inferences about the spread of hg H.




The Badro et al (2013) map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg H into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.



I repeat, your Tables do not supercede Badro et al,2013. Moreover, there is more tham one hg H clade in Africa. You have a right to your opinion, but, Haplogroup H probably originated in Africa--not the Near East.

.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
You can't pick and choose one H sub-clade
and have it stand in for its parent. You
don't have the right to do that though
you are entitled to your opinion which
I have demostrated is unfounded on based
on 3 criteria not your solo freq criteria.

Do you not get it? No matter how much an
inaccuracy's repeated it remains inaccurate.

Then there's your repeated failure to realize
the data in Badro's 2013 frequency only table
comes from various sources older than 2013.


Nor does your Badro table address the several
diversity measures Ennafaa's table addresses.

You limit yourself to frequency
a poor solo indicator of origin.

I am expansive and besides frequency include
* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
all of which seem to scare you to death since
you refuse to consider those variables that
knock your pitch straight out the park for
a grand slam home run.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
You can't pick and choose one H sub-clade
and have it stand in for its parent. You
don't have the right to do that though
you are entitled to your opinion which
I have demostrated is unfounded on based
on 3 criteria not your solo freq criteria.

Do you not get it? No matter how much an
inaccuracy's repeated it remains inaccurate.

Then there's your repeated failure to realize
the data in Badro's 2013 frequency only table
comes from various sources older than 2013.


Nor does your Badro table address the several
diversity measures Ennafaa's table addresses.

You limit yourself to frequency
a poor solo indicator of origin.

I am expansive and besides frequency include
* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
all of which seem to scare you to death since
you refuse to consider those variables that
knock your pitch straight out the park for
a grand slam home run.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
You base your opinion on your own beliefs instead of actual data.

---

• Anyway, in Ennafaa (2009) below, the
  Near East has the highest H* frequency.
  She comments: "unclassified H haplotypes
  (H*) account for 40–50% of the H diversity
  in the Arabian Peninsula and the Near East."
  
  
  
  * Number of different haplotypes
  * unique haplotypes
  * haplotype diversity
  * unique haplotype frequency
  are all highest in the Near East too.
  

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
The lingusitic connection is there also. Afroasiatic is found in the Maghreba nd the Arabian peninsular. AA having an African origin.

We need to look at ALL data.

Indeed there is close connection between Arabia and the Maghreb. The "direction" of migration seem to be Africa to Arabia....all data considered.

---

There is no such language as Afro-Asiatic.

.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe or the Near East to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration from the Near East there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt, than in the rest of Africa.

This geographic pattern does not suggest a Great Lakes origin because the map does not show much hg H among Ethiopians and Kenyans . If it had originated in Great Lakes region there would be a higher frequency of hg H in the region.


.

.

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I agree that this table suggest an Arabian origin of mtDNA hg-H BUT NOT an European origin!

That said. All clades of H is virtual absent in the Egyptian region, as many studies have shown. This geographic pattern suggest Southern Sahara origin may be Great Lakes.
R0 has highest frequency in Southern Arabia and Nubia/Sudan region(sources cited already)
What is also perplexing is the frequency of H* and the presence of the sub-clades in both Tunisia(central Magrheb) and Southern Arabia. Note that H13 and the older clades has high frequency IN southern Arabia. This again confirms Egypt was a barrier and "owned" by SSA. If there was migration FROM Arabia to the Maghreb it was NOT through Egypt/Levant.

The pattern confirms an African origin. To be confirmed by Kefi(2014).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
]

---

---

The presence of multiple H clades in Africa shows that diversity of hg H existed in Africa. As I said originally, the absence of H clades in Egypt proves that hg H originated in Africa and not the NE.

Since the rise of Islam , numerous Arab populations migrated into Egypt including Yemenis. It stands to reason that if hg H originated in the NE, there should be carriers of this haplogroup in Egypt--NOT. This supports my theory that hg H entered Eurasia from the West.

Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Below are a few quotes from the paper by Holliday they show that the population at this time were Negroid in Southwest Asia.

"In this light, some of the more robust assignments (albeit not 95% of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids to the sub-Saharan African sample (e.g., Qafzeh 8 at 85%, Skhul 4 at 71%) are remarkable indeed" (p. 62).

"The Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have sometimes been refered to as "Proto-CroMagnons" (e.g., Howell 1957; Vandermeersch 1996) because of their presumed similarity to the famous Aurignacian-associated hominids from Western Europe....Specifically [Brace], he notes that "in both the details of its dental and craniological size and from Qafzeh is an unlikely proto-Cro-Magnon, but it makes a fine model for the ancestors of modern sub-Saharan Africans"(p.63).

"taken as a whole, the work of Tchernov seems to support the findings of the current research that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have their origins in Africa, while the Neanderthals are from cold to temperate biomes"(p.64).

"The current study demonstrates African-like affinities in the body shape of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This finding is consistent with craniofacial evidence (Brace 1996) and with zooarchaeological data indicating the presence of African fauna at Qafzeh (Rabinovich and Tchernov 1995; Tchernov 1988, 1992)" (p.64).\


Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .

As I said earlier there were only SSA in western Eurasia and the Levant so Africans were continually migrating into the region depositing their haplogroups.


Where are your non-Sub-Saharan Africans in Eurasia, who you claim were the originators of hg H.

.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Good job trying to distract and coverup the genetics.

You're talking everything but molecular biology.
Wishology don't cut it. One type of data (freq)
don't either. Overturn all that data from here



* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.


Xyyman note, it's Near East not Arabian Peninsula
and nobody buy you said anything about a Europe origin.
What are you doing building strawmen to knock down?

Are there any basal nrY Hgs that originated in Europe?

Got to hand it to you though for not confusing
mtDNA R for nrY R the way Clyde did. Of course
it is M N and R basal Hgs whose origins are still
questioned by some population geneticists (now
where is that chart I base that on TP?.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Good job trying to distract and coverup the genetics.

You're talking everything but molecular biology.
Wishology don't cut it. One type of data (freq)
don't either. Overturn all that data from here



* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.


Xyyman note, it's Near East not Arabian Peninsula
and nobody buy you said anything about a Europe origin.
What are you doing building strawmen to knock down?

---

No. There is no cover-up of the genetics, I am looking at the frequency and variety of hg H in Northwest Africa and the Sahara and its absence in Egypt; along with the evidence that Sub-Saharan Africans have always been migrating into the Near East and took hg H into the Near East.


The idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe or the Near East to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration from the Near East there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt, than in the rest of Africa.

This geographic pattern does not suggest a Great Lakes origin because the map does not show much hg H among Ethiopians and Kenyans . If it had originated in Great Lakes region there would be a higher frequency of hg H in the region.


.

.


The presence of multiple H clades in Africa shows that diversity of hg H existed in Africa. As I said originally, the absence of H clades in Egypt proves that hg H originated in Africa and not the NE.

Since the rise of Islam , numerous Arab populations migrated into Egypt including Yemenis. It stands to reason that if hg H originated in the NE, there should be carriers of this haplogroup in Egypt--NOT. This supports my theory that hg H entered Eurasia from the West.

Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Below are a few quotes from the paper by Holliday they show that the population at this time were Negroid in Southwest Asia.

"In this light, some of the more robust assignments (albeit not 95% of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids to the sub-Saharan African sample (e.g., Qafzeh 8 at 85%, Skhul 4 at 71%) are remarkable indeed" (p. 62).

"The Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have sometimes been refered to as "Proto-CroMagnons" (e.g., Howell 1957; Vandermeersch 1996) because of their presumed similarity to the famous Aurignacian-associated hominids from Western Europe....Specifically [Brace], he notes that "in both the details of its dental and craniological size and from Qafzeh is an unlikely proto-Cro-Magnon, but it makes a fine model for the ancestors of modern sub-Saharan Africans"(p.63).

"taken as a whole, the work of Tchernov seems to support the findings of the current research that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids have their origins in Africa, while the Neanderthals are from cold to temperate biomes"(p.64).

"The current study demonstrates African-like affinities in the body shape of the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This finding is consistent with craniofacial evidence (Brace 1996) and with zooarchaeological data indicating the presence of African fauna at Qafzeh (Rabinovich and Tchernov 1995; Tchernov 1988, 1992)" (p.64).\


Holiday, T. (2000). Evolution at the Crossroads: Modern Human Emergence in Western Asia, American Anthropologist,102(1) .

As I said earlier there were only SSA in western Eurasia and the Levant so Africans were continually migrating into the region depositing their haplogroups.


Where are your non-Sub-Saharan Africans in Eurasia, who you claim were the originators of hg H.

.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Data Clyde data not repeating the same non-molecular biology rhetoric.

Can't do it can you?

Like a cross to Dracula the data is to you.




* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.


Da data be da killuh.

R.I.P.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Data Clyde data not repeating the same non-molecular biology rhetoric.

Can't do it can you?

Like a cross to Dracula the data is to you.




* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.


Da data be da killuh.

R.I.P.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Hahahahaha! What a last gasp.

Data that plainly and clearly falsifies your ideology is meaningless, eh?

Da data be da killuh.

R.I.P.


Dearly beloved
we are gathered here today
to pay our last respects
to Jive Ass Filabuster

---

LOL. You have failed to falsify Badro et al, and you have no archaeogenetic data to support your proposition because you fail to understand how to conduct properly the study of population genetics, which must be supported by data from archaeology, anthropology and etc.

Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:

* a higher number of different haplotypes

* more unique haplotypes

* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa

* and a higher unique haplotype frequency.
In addition there is no collateral archaeogenetic evidence to support the genomic data. The major factor disputing a Near East origin of hg H, is the homogeneity of Near Eastern populations, other factors include the failure of researchers to:

1) explain why hg H is not in Egypt

2)Why there is no archaeological or historical evidence of NE people migrating through Western Europe and depositing hg H in Northwest Africa, but there is abundance of evidence of population replacement in the Near East; and

3)Where is the linguistic evidence supporting a NE population in western Eurasia .

A North African origin for hg H is parsimonious. It is supported by the evidence of numerous and constant migrations of African populations into the Near East. Trenton W. Holliday, tested the hypothesis that if modern Africans had dispersed into the Levant from Africa, "tropically adapted hominids" would be represented in the archaeological history of the Levant, especially in relation to the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids. This researcher found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufians samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found African fauna in the area.
Thusly, the genomic evidence of hg H in the Near East , correlates with skeletal, flora and fauna evidence of SSA populations in the Near East up to 4kya. The genomic evidence also indicate that in Northwest Africa and the Sahara there are

* different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequencies
This archaeogenetic evidence leads to a number of inferences which is made evident by the Badro et al (2013) . the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
.

.
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.



Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).


If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%.
Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe 45.4% to 25% in Palestine.

The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.

In summary,there is no archaeogenetic data supporting an expansion of Near Easterners into western Eurasia. As a result, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Hahahahaha! What a last gasp.

Data that plainly and clearly falsifies your ideology is meaningless, eh?

Da data be da killuh.

R.I.P.


Dearly beloved
we are gathered here today
to pay our last respects
to Jive Ass Filabuster

---

quote:

---

Abstract
Background: The Strait of Gibraltar separating the Iberian Peninsula from North Africa is thought
to be a stronger barrier to gene flow for male than for female lineages. However, the recent
subdivision of the haplogroup H at mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) level has revealed greater genetic
differentiation among geographic regions than previously detected. The dissection of the mtDNA
haplogroup H in North Africa, and its comparison with the Iberian Peninsula and Near-East profiles
would help clarify the relative affinities among these regions.

Results: Like the Iberian Peninsula, the dominant mtDNA haplogroup H subgroups in North Africa
are H1 (42%) and H3 (13%). The similarity between these regions is stronger in the North-West edge affecting mainly Moroccan Arabs, West Saharans and Mauritanians,][/b and decreases eastwardsprobably due to gene flow from Near East as attested for the higher frequencies of H4, H5, H7,H8 and H11 subgroups. Moroccan Berbers show stronger affinities with Tunisian and Tunisian
Berbers than with Moroccan Arabs. Coalescence ages for H1 (11 ± 2 ky) and H3 (11 ± 4 ky) in
North Africa point to the possibility of a late Palaeolithic settlement for these lineages similar to those found for other mtDNA haplogroups. Total and partial mtDNA genomic sequencing unveiled stronger mtDNA differentiation among regions than previously found using HVSI mtDNA based analysis.

Conclusion: The subdivision of the mtDNA haplogroup H in North Africa has confirmed that the genetic differentiation found among Western and Eastern populations is mainly due to geographical rather than cultural barriers.[b] It also shows that the historical Arabian role on the region had more a cultural than a demic effect. Whole mtDNA sequencing of identical H haplotypes based on HVSI and RFLP information has unveiled additional mtDNA differences between North African and Iberian Peninsula lineages, pointing to an older mtDNA genetic flow between regions than previously thought. Based on this new information, it seems that the Strait of Gibraltar barrier affected both male and female gene flow in a similar fashion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Ha! Ha! Ha! I am not making strawman argument. I making a statement of fact based upon the data presented by Enaaffa. That the data shows hg-H did NOT originate in Europe. Her data however shows more likely the origin is in the Arabian region. Enaaffa data shows Arabia has only a slight edge over Africa as the origin of mtDNA hg-H. The geographic pattern however shows the strong presence of the upstream H* and Older clades in “southern Arabia/Yemen” and North Africa. With lower frequency in the Levant and virtual absence in Egypt. That tells me there is a southern Arabia/North Africa connection….meaning Arabia was NOT the source but the recipient. Highest frequency of upstream R0 is found in Arabia AND Sudan region. In addition. The high presence of HV in Western Africa and the high frequency of the other sub-clades such H1 and H3 in Africa and Iberia/Italy also points to an African origin for the macro-group. The decrease cline from West to East of H in Europe also points to an African origin.

If I am a betting man. I am with Dr Winters on an African origin. Time …or Kefi will tell.

---

quote:

---

Ennafaa noted......


As a consequence, it has been proposed that the North African gene pool has had Palaeolithic and Neolithic influences from the East, but that the impact of the historicalinvasions, such as the Arabic role, had more a cultural than a demic effect. The lack of exclusive haplotypic matches between North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula found here is in accordance with that hypothesis. Third,the southward clinal diminution of haplogroup H frequencies found at mitochondrial level is well explained as a counteracting effect of the northward clinal diminution of the Sub-Saharan maternal gene flow [15,5,19].

Fourth,the genetic heterogeneity detected between the North African and the Iberian Peninsula populations has been attributed to both the effect of the physical barrier imposed by the Strait of Gibraltar and strong cultural differences.However, some gene flow has been detected between areas and its strength depends mainly on the type of marker used. The strongest barrier effect has been detected in analyses based on Y-chromosome polymorphisms [30]. The levels of gene flow detected in autosomal
studies have been of more diverse range [4,56] and, in some cases, seem to depend on the population samples used as is the case with, for instance, the CD4/Alu microsatellite haplotypes [60,61]. In contrast, a high female permeability
has been deduced from several mitochondrial
studies that pointed to the existence of an important maternal Iberian input on North Africa [15,19]. Although there is no archaeological evidence to justify such a demic flow from Iberia to North Africa, based on the phylogeographic
range, comparative gene diversity and ages of several mitochondrial haplogroups such as V, H1, H3, and U5b1b [25,37,26], the presence of these haplogroups in North Africa is thought to be the result of a southward expansion of Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers from the Franco- Cantabrian refuge after the Last Glacial Maximum.

In fact, coalescence ages for H1 and H3 subclades estimated in this study are in good agreement with those previously published and are congruent with these expansions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:

* a higher number of different haplotypes

* more unique haplotypes

* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa

* and a higher unique haplotype frequency.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
at your rebuttal.

Anyway, how come there is a different genetic structure amongst Germans?

---

They are comprised of confederation of different African tribes

btw, it's not a rebuttal, it's confirmation of xyyman's theory

---

This will be remembered.

quote:

---

Haplogroup H dominates present-day Western European mitochondrial DNA variability (>40%), yet was less common (~19%) among Early Neolithic farmers (~5450 BC) and virtually absent in Mesolithic hunter-gatherers. Here we investigate this major component of the maternal population history of modern Europeans and sequence 39 complete haplogroup H mitochondrial genomes from ancient human remains. We then compare this 'real-time' genetic data with cultural changes taking place between the Early Neolithic (~5450 BC) and Bronze Age (~2200 BC) in Central Europe. Our results reveal that the current diversity and distribution of haplogroup H were largely established by the Mid Neolithic (~4000 BC), but with substantial genetic contributions from subsequent pan-European cultures such as the Bell Beakers expanding out of Iberia in the Late Neolithic (~2800 BC). Dated haplogroup H genomes allow us to reconstruct the recent evolutionary history of haplogroup H and reveal a mutation rate 45% higher than current estimates for human mitochondria.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
As you can see any expansion from Europe and the Near East into Northwest Africa lacks any archaeological evidence and is based on pure conjecture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely.

---

Aren't you the one always bringing up Vandals in North Africa?
Modern day Germans are 40+% Haplogroup H, mtDNA
Therefore a back migration

They were Preceded by the Romans.
Hap H is also about 40% in Italians


Preceding both of them was the Phoenicians
They came from what is now Lebanon
and in Lebanon mtDNA frequencies for Haplogroup H are 33.8%
At it's height Carthage is believed to have had half a million people and that was only one of their cities.

Levantines such as the Phoenicians and probably the Sea People were Levantines. They didn't have to pass through Egypt if they didn't want to they had ships !!!

In other words we have both Near Eastern Phoenicians and European H carriers who occupied North Africa

But modern day Egyptians carry Haplogroup H at 15.7% anyway

not by a long shot the zero as referenced on the Badro chart

Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations
Danielle A. Badro,

Table 1. mtDNA Haplogroup frequencies of 1509 newly sequenced Levantine samples and 3665 samples collected from the literature.


^^^ this chart cannot be used to indicate average Haplogroup H frequencies in various countries


notice at right are all the references, for instance for Egypt

Saunier et al

that's from 2008 (2007)

full reference at the bottom of the article as follows


7. Saunier JL, Irwin JA, Strouss KM, Ragab H, Sturk KA, et al. (2009)
Mitochondrial control region sequences from an Egyptian population sample.
Forensic science international Genetics 3: e97–103. doi: 10.1016/j.fsigen.2008.09.004



^^^ However this is showing various H groups in Egyptians
(people save the above two part image, this chart, for reference on modern Egyptian population- first time posted on ES)


Similarly one could be mislead by this Badro chart:


^^^ Mali is 52.4% + Haplogroup H right?
Look at the Badro map and then the Table. It says 52.4%
>>>Wrong, H frequency is next to nothing in Mali. It is only detected in some Tuareg who even in Northern Mali are a minority and 90% of the population lives in Southern Mali
It's misleading how Badro has charted these things

And likewise the Badro table that shows 0% H for Egypt
cannot be the average for modern Egypt

_____________________________________________________


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2006.00259.x/full


Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Mauritania and Mali and their Genetic Relationship to Other Western Africa Populations
A. M. González1,*,

Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) variation was analyzed in Mauritania and Mali, and compared to other West African samples covering the considerable geographic, ethnic and linguistic diversity of this region. The Mauritanian mtDNA profile shows that 55% of their lineages have a west Eurasian provenance, with the U6 cluster (17%) being the best represented. Only 6% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to the L3A haplogroup a frequency similar to other Berber speaking groups but significantly different to the Arabic speaking North Africans. The historic Arab slave trade may be the main cause of this difference. Only one HV west Eurasian lineage has been detected in Mali but 40% of the sub-Saharan sequences belong to cluster L3A. The presence of L0a representatives demonstrates gene flow from eastern regions. Although both groups speak related dialects of the Mande branch, significant genetic differences exist between the Bambara and Malinke groups. The West African genetic variation is well structured by geography and language, but more detailed ethnolinguistic clustering suggest that geography is the main factor responsible for this differentiation.

A total of 84 different haplotypes were observed in 124 Mali subjects. Only the Bambara and Malinke had large enough sample sizes to be studied independently (Table 2). A mismatch search detected 36 haplotypes (43%) found only in Mali, of which 53% belong to the L2 cluster. In contrast to Mauritania, while only eight lineages (17%) are widely spread in Africa, fourteen (30%) are restricted to West Africa. Again, in contrast to Maure, only one Bambara Euroasiatic sequence (Table 2) was detected in Mal

The second principal component (PC2) that extracted 25% of the variance clearly separates Mauritania from the rest of the western countries, due to its high frequency of Euroasiatic lineages, leaving Mali closer to Senegal-Guinea-Sierra Leone than to Niger-Nigeria. These results demonstrate that the genetic variation is geographically structured. The Mauritania-Senegal and Mali border seems to be an important barrier to southwards gene flow of the North African Euroasiatic haplogroups to Sub-Saharan Africa. However, the large genetic differentiation between Mauritania and Mali, both sharing an extensive border in the Sahara area, needs explanation. On one hand this border largely occupies a desert area, so gene flow in this region is infrequent. On the other, the fact that the Mali samples were collected in Bamako (southern Mali) could have biased the data to the southern regions, decreasing the Euroasiatic haplogroups frequencies. The latter explanation is reinforced by the comparatively high presence of Euroasiatic lineages in the Niger-Nigeria sample, where the northern nomadic Tuareg and the pastoral Hausa are well represented (Watson et al. 1997). In fact, this Niger-Nigeria Euroasiatic component slightly likens this region to Mauritania.

________________________________________


Frequencies of H are higher in Europe than in North Africa
Diversity of H is highest in the Near East followed by Europe
It is lowest in North Africa

Haplogroup H frequency

Libya is 17.1 %
(according to Badro 25.8%)
only some Tuaregs in Libya a population of under 20,000 have 63% Hap H and I suspect it's the lighter skinned ones rather than the ones who look like non-berber Malians (people who have little if any hap H) One can imagine the white researchers avoiding the black Tuaregs for samples and instead sampling the high yella mulatto types
Anyway Badro lists "Libyan Sahara" separately, the reference is Ottonti"s Tuareg article. Again Tuareg are 0.3% of Libya
Not 3% but 0.3%

So the North African country with the highest frequency of H
according to Badro is
Tunisia 31.3
That's where the Vandals were

Now compare that to Badro's European populations

Slovakia 47

France 45.4

Greece 42,2

________________________

And adding a few more from other sources

Wales 59.8

Galacia, Spain 58.5

Scotland 44.1

Switzerland 17.9

______________________________________
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
^You still don't get it, you still keep citing frequencies. When it's not solely about frequencies. Iteration is yo' thang'.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3978205_emss-57674-f0001.jpg

Mitochondrial haplogroup H sequence evolution
(a) Phylogenetic network of 39 prehistoric mitochondrial genomes sorted into two temporal groupings: Early Neolithic (left) and Mid-to-Late Neolithic (right). Node colours represent archaeological cultures. (b) A Bayesian skyride plot of 200 representative present-day and 39 ancient hg H mt genomes (the thick red line denotes the posterior median, thinner flanking lines denote the 95% credibility interval; note the logarithmic scale of the y-axis). Prehistoric samples (18 radiocarbon and 21 mean archaeological dates) served as internal calibration points (black bars). For comparison, census size estimates for the European population are shown as orange dots. Population density estimates from the archaeological record for key periods in Central Europe are plotted as blue squares in chronological order: LBK, Iron Age, Roman period, Merovingian, and Pre-industrial modern times (y-axis on the right)28.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3978205_emss-57674-f0002.jpg

Population affinities of select Neolithic cultures
(a) PCA biplot based on the frequencies of 15 hg H sub-haplogroups (component loadings) from 37 present-day Western Eurasian and three ancient populations (light blue: Western Europe; dark blue: Central and Eastern Europe; orange; Near East, Caucasus, and Anatolia; and pink: ancient samples). Populations are abbreviated as follows: GAL, Galicia; CNT, Cantabria; CAT, Catalonia; GAS, Galicia/Asturia; CAN, Cantabria2; POT, Potes; PAS, Pasiegos; VIZ, Vizcaya; GUI, Guipuzcoa; BMI, Basques; IPNE, Iberian Peninsula Northeast; TUR, Turkey; ARM, Armenia; GEO, Georgia; NWC, Northwest Caucasus; DAG, Dagestan; OSS, Ossetia; SYR, Syria; LBN, Lebanon; JOR, Jordan; ARB, Arabian Peninsula; ARE, Arabian Peninsula2; KBK, Karachay-Balkaria; MKD, Macedonia; VUR, Volga-Ural region; FIN, Finland; EST, Estonia; ESV, Eastern Slavs; SVK, Slovakia; FRA, France; BLK, Balkans; DEU, Germany; AUT, Austria, ROU, Romania; FRM, France Normandy; WIS, Western Isles; CZE, Czech Republic; LBK, Linear pottery culture; BBC, Bell Beaker culture; MNE, Middle Neolithic. (b) Procrustes analyses of geographic coordinates and PCA scores of the same dataset (similarity score t0 = 0.733, p ... 10−6, 100 000 permutations). (c) Ward clustering dendrogram of the three ancient groups and present-day populations (colour code as above and p values in % of approximately unbiased bootstrapping for the following three main clusters). (d) Results of the model-based test to identify the number of clusters by the model with the highest support (highest BIC; VEV= multivariate mixture model (ellipsoidal, equal shape)).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3978205_emss-57674-f0003.jpg

Schematic representation of experimental steps
(a) Probe DNA was prepared by amplifying a complete mitochondrial genome in two overlapping fragments by long-range PCR, followed by DNA fragmentation and biotinylation to form mtDNA ‘baits’ for targeted hybridisation. (b) Ancient DNA was enzymatically blunt-ended and phosphorylated, ligated to custom library adapters, followed by polymerase ‘fill-in’ to create ‘immortalised’ double-stranded DNA libraries. (c) Hybridisation-based DNA-capture using biotinylated probe bound to Streptavidin magnetic beads; following stringency washes, captured library constructs enriched in mtDNA sequences are eluted from the beads/probe via a novel polymerase strand-displacement reaction followed by PCR library reamplification. These steps can be carried out iteratively to maximise mtDNA content in enriched libraries
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
^You still don't get it, you still keep citing frequencies. When it's not solely about frequencies. Iteration is yo' thang'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
^You still don't get it, you still keep citing frequencies. When it's not solely about frequencies. Iteration is yo' thang'.

---

I am speaking to Clyde somewhat on Clyde's terms

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.


Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:

* a higher number of different haplotypes

* more unique haplotypes

* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa

* and a higher unique haplotype frequency.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
As you can see any expansion from Europe and the Near East into Northwest Africa lacks any archaeological evidence and is based on pure conjecture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely.

---

Aren't you the one always bringing up Vandals in North Africa?
Modern day Germans are 40+% Haplogroup H, mtDNA
Therefore a back migration

They were Preceded by the Romans.
Hap H is also about 40% in Italians

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

---

The Y DNA perspective:


The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula
Susan M. Adams12, Elena Bosch1213,
DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2008.11.007




 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians,
I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Oops! From ESR

QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:


With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians,
I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians,
I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
@Sage. This is a good example of strawman. We have an indepth discussion on haplotypic diversity and unique mutations and Lioness throws in a smoke bomb. She thinks she can confuse us. Lol!

---

In other words he were talking about frequency as quoted and I replied to it

So you want to pretend you didn't make a statement about frequency and call Tukular for help

folks, the bolded statement by xyyman is false

Also the new Kefi paper could prove even more embarrasing to you
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.

Sage is wrong on this one. At a glance the table he posted do show higher diversity in Arabia over Africa. But as Dr Winters pointed out Ennaafa does not have that view. She suggested that NA and Arabia are siblings. But Iberians are sub-set of NA.

The supplementals have it all...,,
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Unable to overturn the data which he
labeled as my belief not actual data
and after non-genetic filabustering
to bide time to uncover contrary data
Clyde presented the ultimate in make
believe "science"

Confronted with unmitigatable purely
genetic evidence of H's NE ancestry
(NE Xyyman not AP like you keep fudging)

Clydes presents an interpretation the
exact opposite of the discipline's 'rules'.

quote:

---

Because Haplogroup H originated in Northwest Africa and the Sahara, there would be

* fewer different haplotypes
* few unique haplotypes
* less haplotype diversity
* lower unique haplotype frequency

because, the African populations would be more homogeneous.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.

Sage is wrong on this one. At a glance the table he posted do show higher diversity in Arabia over Africa. But as Dr Winters pointed out Ennaafa does not have that view. She suggested that NA and Arabia are siblings. But Iberians are sub-set of NA.

The supplementals have it all...,,

---

Over 85% of people who say "I got this" don't got this




* HT Number of different haplotypes,
highest, Iberian Penninsula 161
wide margin

* HTu unique haplotypes,
highest, Iberian Penninsula 122
wide margin

* %hHT haplotype diversity
Near East 97
Arabian Penninsula 96
Iberia and North Africa 93
narrow margin
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The number of haplotypes and
the unique haplotypes support
expansion in Iberia not origin.

• * %hHT haplotype diversity
  Near East 97
  North Africa 96
  Iberia and North Africa 93
  narrow margin

Of course you meant
Arabian Peninsula 96
not North Africa 96

But don't forget Ennafaa's list of
various H subclades shows NE
lacks only one, (H3), whilst IP
lacks, or is less than 1, for
6 sub-Hgs H6 H6b H8 H11 H14a H20



Using both tables I concluded
their data indicates Near East
origins for macrohaplogroup H
the subject of this thread.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
After the Near East where is the second location Europe or North Africa? I read Ennafaa a few times and it was less than firmly conclusive. She says on a genetic level evidence suggets a migration of H from Iberia to North Africa in prehistoric times.
Scientists are uncertain about crossing the Gibralter at that time.Ennafaa found a correlation of Western NA populaltions, including Morroco showing a greater European affinty as compared to Tunisians with a greater NE affinity
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Tukuler, why do you even bother?

Clyde is just the reverse opposite of lyinass. Where lyinass is quick to classify any early clade in Africa 'Eurasian' because certain derived hgs are in Eurasia, clyde does the opposite and claim any downstream Eurasian clades in Africa are really African.

Two different sides of the same coin. BOTH are pushing opposite agendas. One to mix-up Africans, the other to 'purify' Africans.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I'm not so much into Ennafaa's words but
it's her data I use to draw my inferences.


@DJ
Tenacity in promoting viable
African studies and disciplines
supporting it is what brought me
here and keeps me here. This is
my heritage culture and civilization
and I will not stand aside no matter
who lacks the will to struggle against
whatever odds.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Tukuler, why do you even bother?

Clyde is just the reverse opposite of lyinass. Where lyinass is quick to classify any early clade in Africa 'Eurasian' because certain derived hgs are in Eurasia, clyde does the opposite and claim any downstream Eurasian clades in Africa are really African.

Two different sides of the same coin. BOTH are pushing opposite agendas. One to mix-up Africans, the other to 'purify' Africans.

---

 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I'm not so much into Ennafaa's words but
it's her data I use to draw my inferences.


@DJ
Tenacity in promoting viable
African studies and disciplines
supporting it is what brought me
here and keeps me here. This is
my heritage culture and civilization
and I will not stand aside no matter
who lacks the will to struggle against
whatever odds.

---

code:

---

STATS BASED ON ENNAFAA(2007) TABLES 1&2

All H       NearEast   Iberia   N. Afr

paragroup   * 51         18       26
diversity   * 97         93       93
freq          22       * 44       25


* = highest value
Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I'm not so much into Ennafaa's words but
it's her data I use to draw my inferences.


@DJ
Tenacity in promoting viable
African studies and disciplines
supporting it is what brought me
here and keeps me here. This is
my heritage culture and civilization
and I will not stand aside no matter
who lacks the will to struggle against
whatever odds.

---

This shows why you made a fool of yourself in this thread. If you would have paid attention to the author's words you may have understood Ennafaa's interpretation of the data, instead of reaching the false conclusions you presented in this thread.

There is nothing wrong in making your own interpretation of the literature but you should frame the interpretation of data using archaeogenetic methods--not your own.

.

---

 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
yeah! Yeah! Anyone who understands this stuff and analyze Ennaafa supplemental data will understand what she means. North Africans are NOT a subset of Arabians.


======
Ennafaa noted......


As a consequence, it has been proposed that the North African gene pool has had Palaeolithic and Neolithic influences from the East, but that the impact of the historicalinvasions, such as the Arabic role, had more a cultural than a demic effect. The ****LACK ****of exclusive haplotypic matches between North Africa and the Arabian Peninsula found here is in accordance with that hypothesis.


----

The data shows NO matches between Arabia and North Africa. Get it Got it. Meaning? Tic!Toc!

Nice work Dr Winters


I got this!


I will give you some space. You will catch on
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Again w/t strawman?

Who here ever said NAs are a subset of APs?

Nobody but you, afaik.

Build a strawman knock him down.

But as for real positions
you were dead to rights
wrong about no H* & H1
in NE per Ennafaa after
you made a big deal and
challenge over it..

Confession is good for ...

You see this

code:

---

STATS BASED ON ENNAFAA(2009) TABLES 1&2

All H       NearEast   Iberia   N. Afr

paragroup   * 51         18       26
diversity   * 97         93       93
freq          22       * 44       25


* = highest value
Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2

---

You know what it means tic toc doc?

Ya see it but no wanna blieve it.

So you twiist and shouout and jabbbber

But all the peregrination in the world
can't poof up in smoke the data evidence
and who wins the origin criteria match
best two out of three.

Iffen I gives ya space
will ya catch on in time
that NE is NOT AP
so I ain't gotta tell ya
again for the 5th time.
Alzheimers???????????????
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
On Table S2 –

“H Haplotypes classified” means the “quantity' not “different type" of haplotypes. Essentially the 510(IP) means the sum of the haplotypes. It does NOT mean there are 510 different haplotypes in Iberia!! Do the math.

That is why quoting frequency alone is very mis-leading and deceptive. Most haplotypes could be exactly the SAME within Iberia. You need to dive deeper.

That is why spreadsheet S1 is where the “rubber hits the road” as I pointed out. Now once you understand that take it one step further and look at the data closely. Match-up the “unique” haplotypes, H*, between populations. Clearly, H*, between Arabia and North Africa is different. In the levant it is virtually absent except for, yeah, Jordan. But the population sampled with is Jordan is …you guessed it….Bedoiuns.

That is why Ennaafa concluded North Africa is NOT a subset of Arabia. Their H* and most other haplotypes do NOT match. She said “ Lack exclusivity”. Meaning Arabians did not back-migrate into North Africa. Islamic or otherwise.


As for Iberia, you your self agree that they carry signal of expansion FROM Africa.

I did look at the other supplementals but I dismissed them because S3 and S2 were meaningless for the discussion.

This is not rocket science.


Kefi et al (2014) is no longer needed.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Tukuler you should be ashamed of yourself. You pretend you are proud of your ancestry then you play the Step and Fetch negro role.

quote:

---

Iffen I gives ya space
will ya catch on in time
that NE is NOT AP
so I ain't gotta tell ya
again for the 5th time.
Alzheimers???????????????

---

You’re nothing but a big cry baby


You just don’t get it, showing that chart of gene frequency does not make you right.

quote:

---

code:

---

STATS BASED ON ENNAFAA(2009) TABLES 1&2

All H       NearEast   Iberia   N. Afr

paragroup   * 51         18       26
diversity   * 97         93       93
freq          22       * 44       25


* = highest value
Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2

---

---

Just because a Regions has a high frequency of a particular haplogroup does not indicate the origin of that haplogroup.

Previous publications have pointed out that regions of highest haplogroup frequencies do not always indicate the territory of origin (Cinnioglu et al., 2004) and high STR diversity may not be exclusively an indicator of in-situ diversification but could also be the consequence of repeated gene flow from different sources (Zerjal et al., 2002; Sharma et al,2009).

TUKULER Stop being a cry baby and undercover Step-and-Fetch It



It is sad you support Eurocentric views, even when an author--Ennafaa- does not even support your undercover Eurocentrism. You take whatever YOU believe Europeans write to deny black history and run with it, even when your interpretation of data is wrong. Shame on you.

References:

Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoglu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA. 2004. Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. Hum Genet 114:127–148.

Zerjal T, Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C. 2002. A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Y-chromosomal insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466–482.

Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AJ, Tiwari PK, Bamezai RN. 2009. The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. J Hum Genet 54:47–55.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Data Clyde data not repeating the same non-molecular biology rhetoric.

Can't do it can you?

Like a cross to Dracula the data is to you.




* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.




Da data be da killuh.

R.I.P.

---

This data means nothing. It has no relevance because genetic data without corresponding archeogenetic evidence is empty rhetoric.

It is easy to explain why the :

* Number of different haplotypes

* unique haplotypes

* haplotype diversity

* unique haplotype frequency

are all highest in the Near East.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

They are highest there because of the homogeneity of near Eastern populations that have been influenced by the original SSA, and succeeding non-African populations into the area including, the Turks, Arabs, Mongolians, Slavic speakers, Indo-European speakers. This homogeneity has led to more mutations within the less homogenous Near Eastern populations, than the African populations.

Because Haplogroup H originated in Northwest Africa and the Sahara, there would be

* fewer different haplotypes
* few unique haplotypes
* less haplotype diversity
* lower unique haplotype frequency

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

because, the African populations would be more homogeneous. Except, for the Vandal invasion of Northwest Africa, Black Berber and Tuareg populations have remained stable.[/b]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

A Near East origin of hg H lacks any collateral archaeogenetic evidence to support the genomic data. The major factor disputing a Near East origin of hg H, is the homogeneity of Near Eastern populations, other factors include your failure to:


1) explain why hg H is not in Egypt

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

2)Why there is no archaeological or historical evidence of NE people migrating through Western Europe and depositing hg H in Northwest Africa, but there is abundance of evidence of population replacement in the Near East; and

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago.
From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion,
Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8%
Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians
Italian Hap H = 40.2
+ afrorementioned Turks of the barbary

There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
[QB] @Lioness-
You are more clever and deceptive than I give you credit for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
.

I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Point here is straight up frequency is misleading.

---

• Just because a Regions has a high frequency of a particular haplogroup does not indicate the origin of that haplogroup.
  
  Previous publications have pointed out that regions of highest haplogroup frequencies do not always indicate the territory of origin (Cinnioglu et al., 2004) and high STR diversity may not be exclusively an indicator of in-situ diversification but could also be the consequence of repeated gene flow from different sources (Zerjal et al., 2002; Sharma et al,2009).

• TUKULER Stop being a cry baby and undercover Step-and-Fetch It

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Tukuler you should be ashamed of yourself. You pretend you are proud of your ancestry then you play the Step and Fetch negro role.

quote:

---

Iffen I gives ya space
will ya catch on in time
that NE is NOT AP
so I ain't gotta tell ya
again for the 5th time.
Alzheimers???????????????

---

You’re nothing but a big cry baby


You just don’t get it, showing that chart of gene frequency does not make you right.

quote:

---

code:

---

STATS BASED ON ENNAFAA(2009) TABLES 1&2

All H       NearEast   Iberia   N. Afr

paragroup   * 51         18       26
diversity   * 97         93       93
freq          22       * 44       25


* = highest value
Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2

---

---

Just because a Regions has a high frequency of a particular haplogroup does not indicate the origin of that haplogroup.

Previous publications have pointed out that regions of highest haplogroup frequencies do not always indicate the territory of origin (Cinnioglu et al., 2004) and high STR diversity may not be exclusively an indicator of in-situ diversification but could also be the consequence of repeated gene flow from different sources (Zerjal et al., 2002; Sharma et al,2009).

TUKULER Stop being a cry baby and undercover Step-and-Fetch It



It is sad you support Eurocentric views, even when an author--Ennafaa- does not even support your undercover Eurocentrism. You take whatever YOU believe Europeans write to deny black history and run with it, even when your interpretation of data is wrong. Shame on you.

References:

Cinnioglu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoglu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA. 2004. Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. Hum Genet 114:127–148.

Zerjal T, Wells RS, Yuldasheva N, Ruzibakiev R, Tyler-Smith C. 2002. A genetic landscape reshaped by recent events: Y-chromosomal insights into Central Asia. Am J Hum Genet 71:466–482.

Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AJ, Tiwari PK, Bamezai RN. 2009. The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. J Hum Genet 54:47–55.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

On Table S2 –

“H Haplotypes classified” means the “quantity' not “different type" of haplotypes. Essentially the 510(IP) means the sum of the haplotypes. It does NOT mean there are 510 different haplotypes in Iberia!! Do the math.

That is why quoting frequency alone is very mis-leading and deceptive. Most haplotypes could be exactly the SAME within Iberia. You need to dive deeper.

That is why spreadsheet S1 is where the “rubber hits the road” as I pointed out. Now once you understand that take it one step further and look at the data closely. Match-up the “unique” haplotypes, H*, between populations. Clearly, H*, between Arabia and North Africa is different. In the levant it is virtually absent except for, yeah, Jordan. But the population sampled with is Jordan is …you guessed it….Bedoiuns.

That is why Ennaafa concluded North Africa is NOT a subset of Arabia. Their H* and most other haplotypes do NOT match. She said “ Lack exclusivity”. Meaning Arabians did not back-migrate into North Africa. Islamic or otherwise.


As for Iberia, you your self agree that they carry signal of expansion FROM Africa.

I did look at the other supplementals but I dismissed them because S3 and S2 were meaningless for the discussion.

This is not rocket science.


Kefi et al (2014) is no longer needed.

---

• Methods
  A total of 5,115 mtDNA sequences were analyzed. Of
  these, 1,231 belonged to the haplogroup H, defined as -
  7025 AluI by RFLP screening. Four main geographic areas
  were covered by this study:
  
  * the Iberian Peninsula (593 H individuals from a total of 1,349),
  * North Africa (224 H individuals from a total of 880),
  * the Near East (265 H individuals from a total of 1,201)
  * and the Arabian Peninsula (149 H individuals from a total of 1,685).
  
  Detailed origin and geographic localization for all the samples are
  specified in Additional file 2.
  
  * From the 1,231 individuals classified as H,
  * 1,114 could be assorted into one of 19 different H subgroups
  
  by further screening for characteristic
  HVSI and/or HVSII sequence motifs, or diagnostic RFLPs
  (see Additional file 3).
  
  *Analyzed individuals that could not been assorted
  into any of the known groups were considered as H* types.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:


* Number of different haplotypes
* unique haplotypes
* haplotype diversity
* unique haplotype frequency
are all highest in the Near East too.

---

That's incorrect, I don't know why Tukular said "all highest in the Near East."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

@Lioness-
You are more clever and deceptive than I give you credit for.

I was just about to touch on Table1 that Sage posted. Looking closely at hHG +- se3 , TuB is at 85+-3. Significance?

That is Gene haplogroup diversity. This African group carry the highest diversity.


BTW- NA on the whole is lower because of the low values of Saharawis and Mau.

The two African groups exceed Both IP and AP. NE is the least.


To sum it up. Two North African groups carry the highest diveristy(hHG). And Unclassified H, H*, is highest North Africa.

Edit: Oh! The Saharawi's and Mau carry the highest frequency of pre-H/HV. (Pillars of Hercules) meaning they are an older population albeit Berbers. They, Saharawis also carry a high freqiency of YDNA R-V88 but their SNP data profile is 100% African, O% European!!! Meaning?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin.

The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.


Northwest African origin is more parsimonious for hg H , than a Near East origin for hg H. A Near East origin for hg H, lacks any congruence .First of all the Near East has seen considerable population replacement in the past 3000 years. This population homogeneity has led in the Near East to:

* a higher number of different haplotypes

* more unique haplotypes

* higher haplotype diversity in Near East as compared to Africa

* and a higher unique haplotype frequency.

---

Trollkillah, the above is the thread theme
I don't know if you are capable of replying to it or you only reply to what I say

---

From your response, it's clear you don't understand what Clyde wrote. So you distorted his posts. You citing people is meaningless, because nine out of ten times you lie, fabricate and alter what people have posted.

It's already known that you are incapable of understanding complex sequences. So you have to stick to Hg's and their frequencies.


Clyde also wrote collateral archaeogenetic, and deep genetic correlation. Being in disagreement with Clyde is different from just bare lying about what he posted.


You lack any congruence. Just like those phylogenese and alleles, you missed, with in those sequences. And you still can't get your head around it.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


With the Ennaafa data, what is amazing also is that the Iberians who also have a high frequency of H*, albeit much lower than either North Africans and Arabians,
I am open to all comers. Anyone……prove me wrong.

---

Iberians have higher frequenices of Haplogroup H than
North Africans, no question

Do the math it's called averages

Libya has 6.4 million people
Haplogroup H frequency in Libya is 17-29%
Only Libyan Tuaregs who number under 20,000 have H up to 61.2%

Tunisia has the highest frequencies of H in North Africa 31.3%

Europe averages 40% +

Spain averages 45%

Wales 58.8% (Sykes 2007)

Why are you making me repeat myself, your claim was proven false by my post that preceded it

The Bardo table also shows, France, Greece and Slovakia each to have higher H frequencies than North Africa

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
As you can see any expansion from Europe and the Near East into Northwest Africa lacks any archaeological evidence and is based on pure conjecture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely.

---

Aren't you the one always bringing up Vandals in North Africa?
Modern day Germans are 40+% Haplogroup H, mtDNA
Therefore a back migration

They were Preceded by the Romans.
Hap H is also about 40% in Italians

---

You are right there was probably a back migration. It was a back migration of Vandal and Roman populations from Africa carrying hg H, into western Eurasia. This was a back migration of populations--not genomes.
.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.

Sage is wrong on this one. At a glance the table he posted do show higher diversity in Arabia over Africa. But as Dr Winters pointed out Ennaafa does not have that view. She suggested that NA and Arabia are siblings. But Iberians are sub-set of NA.

The supplementals have it all...,,

---

Over 85% of people who say "I got this" don't got this




* HT Number of different haplotypes,
highest, Iberian Penninsula 161
wide margin

* HTu unique haplotypes,
highest, Iberian Penninsula 122
wide margin

* %hHT haplotype diversity
Near East 97
Arabian Penninsula 96
Iberia and North Africa 93
narrow margin

---

As mentioned many times before, early Africans were the inhabitants of the Iberia, long before the modern population entered.

quote:

---

The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia

Resumen: New data and a review of historiographic information from Neolithic sites of the Malaga and Algarve coasts (southern Iberian Peninsula) and from the Maghreb (North Africa) reveal the existence of a Neolithic settlement at least from 7.5 cal ka BP. The agricultural and pastoralist food producing economy of that population rapidly replaced the coastal economies of the Mesolithic populations. The timing of this population and economic turnover coincided withmajor changes in the continental and marine ecosystems, including upwelling intensity, sea-level changes and increased aridity in the Sahara and along the Iberian coast. These changes likely impacted the subsistence strategies of the Mesolithic populations along the Iberian seascapes and resulted in abandonments manifested as sedimentary hiatuses in some areas during the Mesolithic–Neolithic transition. The rapid expansion and area of dispersal of the early Neolithic traits suggest the use of marine technology. Different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.

The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago.
From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion,
Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8%
Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians
Italian Hap H = 40.2
+ afrorementioned Turks of the barbary

There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics

---

The "Middle East " people who took the haplogroups to Europe were Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). Trenton W. Holliday, found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufian samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found Sub-Saharan fauna in the area. This illustrates that SSA were the dominant group in the Middle East 20-4kya. These people may have introduced hg E, J and U, but probably not hg H.

I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe. But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.

.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago.
From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion,
Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8%
Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians
Italian Hap H = 40.2
+ afrorementioned Turks of the barbary

There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics

---

The "Middle East " people who took the haplogroups to Europe were Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). Trenton W. Holliday, found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufian samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found Sub-Saharan fauna in the area. This illustrates that SSA were the dominant group in the Middle East 20-4kya. These people may have introduced hg E, J and U, but probably not hg H.

I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe. But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.

.

---

Cosigned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:


BTW- NA on the whole is lower because of the low values of Saharawis and Mau.

The two African groups exceed Both IP and AP. NE is the least.


Edit: Oh! The Saharawi's and Mau carry the highest frequency of pre-H/HV. (Pillars of Hercules) meaning they are an older population albeit Berbers. They, Saharawis also carry a high freqiency of YDNA R-V88 but their SNP data profile is 100% African, O% European!!! Meaning?!

---

.

You can't substitute
a precise locale for
a whole general region.

Berber Tunisia is not all of North Africa.

The hsubHG figure for
* NA is 74 ± 2
* AP is 76 ± 3
* NE is 72 ± 3

Significance? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman:
He! He! He! First off, I dont need help from anyone. I got this.

[QUOTE]The Mesolithic–Neolithic transition in southern Iberia

---different evidences for a Maghrebian origin for the first colonists have been summarized.

The recognition of an early North-African Neolithic influence in Southern Iberia and the Maghreb ****is vital for understanding the appearance and development of the Neolithic**** in Western Europe. Our review suggests links between climate change, resource allocation, and population turnover.

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http://digital.csic.es/handle/10261/93059


Migration from Africa to Europe took place, not the other way around. [/qb]

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
There are tons of articles describing an influx of Near Eastern farmers into Europe about 7,500 year ago.
From there Haplogroup H enters Africa. As you said Vandal invasion,
Add Phoenicians traders who came from the Lebanon region, Lebanon Hap H = 33.8%
Add Romans who ousted the Phoenicians
Italian Hap H = 40.2
+ afrorementioned Turks of the barbary

There it is Clyde, history from multiple foreign influence and genetics

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The "Middle East " people who took the haplogroups to Europe were Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA). Trenton W. Holliday, found that the Qafzeh-Skhul hominids (20,000-10,000),were assigned to the Sub-Saharan population, along with the Natufian samples (4000 BP). Holliday also found Sub-Saharan fauna in the area. This illustrates that SSA were the dominant group in the Middle East 20-4kya. These people may have introduced hg E, J and U, but probably not hg H.

I can agree with the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe. But I doubt the Phoenicians took hg H to NW Africa. There have been numerous invasions of the Levant, so I can not believe that the majority of people in the Levant are descendants of the Phoenicians.

.

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Cosigned.

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you cosign the Romans and Vandals taking hg H into Europe?
How did the Romans and Vandals take hg H into Europe?

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Stop asking me stupid questions, when you yourself don't respond to adequate questions being asked towards you.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
H is of a single mitochondrial locus.
Unable to deal with Ennafaa's
facts about H, as seen in the
standard four indicators that
predict haplogroup origin per
Cruciani et al (2004)

* number of different clades
* frequency
* microsatellite diversity
* presence of paragroup

Xyyman tries to pull off a bait
and switch to an unidentified
'the SNP' (autosomal, nrY, X ???).


Ideologically displeased that
regionally the AP has the
highest hHG value and unable
to comment on what it signifies
Xyyman again pulls out a single
population (Berber Tunisia) to
mask another single population
(Sahara) has the lowest hHG
and NA's overall hHG is lower
than the AP's.




What is the difference between
Table 1 (gene haplogroup diversity)
and
Table 3 (haplotype diversity) ?

Which is more relevant in aiding
determining haplogroup origin and why?


Xyyman is unable to look at
the big picture re Hg H in
all its tabulated compositions
in Ennafaa in order to latch
onto the one bit here one bit
there that fits his a priori
Afrika Uber Alles ideology
acting like many bytes here
many bytes there tearing it
to shreds don't exist.

Typical of the Ostrich Theory
that ducking his head in the
sand to avoid seeing what he'd
rather not see never realizing
his ass is exposed. That way,
though he indeed feels it, he
can't see what's kicking his
bare ass and so imagines it
is not being kicked.



It's a fucking madhouse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMnM_cQu6Fo

I just can't go on risking my own
mental health entertaining Xyyman
lunacies written in his trademark
eccentric hard to follow style.
(Sorry man I can't take you this
time no way -- it too hot, maybe
when it's late fall/winter/early
spring when lower humidity eases
the Brownian motion I can tolerate
it.)


I must rest with what I wrote
over the past week, summed up
below, on why hg H the parent
of all H sub-clades is thought
to originate in the NE Africa
Extension rather than in
neither continental Africa
nor Europe (Iberia nor else
where).

code:

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STATS BASED ON ENNAFAA (2007) TABLES 1&2

All H         NearEast   Iberia   N. Afr

# of clades   * 17         12       10
paragroup     * 51         18       26
diversity     * 97         93       93
freq            22       * 44       25


* = highest value
Freq calculated using Table 1 note 2

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

Xyyman Agrees with me that the following determines “origin”. ---

• 1. number of different clades(higher in AP and NA. Lower in Europe)
•
2 frequency(higher in Europe and some North African population lower in AP)
•
3 microsatellite diversity(Higher in AP then NA lastly Europe)
•
4 presence of paragroup(highest in NA ansd then AP lowest in Euroep)
•
5. Haplogroup and haplotype sub-sets. I forgot to add this which shows AP is NOT ancestral to North African
6. Haplogroup and Haplotype distribution. Which shows ALL are present in Africa but some are absent in either AP or Europe.
7. I agree with xyyman – I need to take ALL into consideration. I need to see the big picture.
• .
But Xyyman tries to pull off a bait and switch(But it only appears that way to the unknowledgeable)
•
Xyyman again pulls out TWO populations (Berber Tunisia and Berber Morocco) which inhabit a bridge to Europe to demonstrate Africans have higher diversity of hHG ± se (haplogroup diversity) than AP and Iberia within mtDNA Hg-H. The diversity is at least 10 point higher in some North African populations. But I will ignore that.

What is the difference between Table 1 (gene haplogroup diversity) – North Africa has the edge over AP
and Table 3 (haplotype diversity) ?- AP has the edge over North Africa.

•

I just can't go on risking my own mental health entertaining Xyyman interpretation written in his trademark eccentric hard to follow style.

I must rest with what I wrote ….I am not going to discuss this further.


.

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




So xyyman, wandering Tunisian berber women brought H to Germany?
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
No Arab women and European women both back-migrated to the Sahara 35,000ya. I guess they love the black male....sic.


But Seriously - there is no race. Modern Europeans are an admixture of older African migrants and recent African migrants adpated to live at specifc latitudes.

Modern Europeans are a sub-set of modern Continental Africans. Just as North Africans are a sub-set of SSA.

This is not rocket science.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Why I ignored Table 3 and concentrated on Table 1 (hHG ± se (haplogroup diversity). Think of a tree with branches and the branches have leaves. Typically the older the tree the more branches(sub-haplogroup) it has. But an abundance of leaves(Haplotyes) does not necessarily mean I am looking at an older tree.
I not sure you know what Ennaafa is trying to prove? The point of her whole paper. Some of us may have missed it. It is not to show AP affinity to North Africa. But to show NA affinity to IP.
She summed it up with this… IP (IP IHT) at 0.21. TABLE 3 I will give your space you will understand Table 3.

But what she provded instead is showing an African origin of mtDNA HG-H.
--------
Quote:
What is the difference between Table 1 (gene haplogroup diversity)
and Table 3 (haplotype diversity) ?-.

---------


She is suggesting that 0.21 is greater than 0.16 therefore North Africa shares more haplotypes with Iberia Europe than North Africa shares with the Arabian Peninsular. That is the point of Table 3. This is what her paper is leading to.

But in trying to be Eurocentric(Ennaafa) a few pieces of information was unknowingly divulge. Eg within North Africa certain populations are extremely diverse. %sHTNA for the SAh and TunB are ***Zero***, meaning?, Although they carry mt-DNA H they share no haplotype with the rest of North Africa. Significance?

Man- I can school you for days on end.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
What Ennaafa has done is the typical Eurocentric data manipulation. Eg in Table 3 she did not show a comparason between the SAH and TUB to Iberians. Which would have been very important for her premise. Instead she grouped North Africans when it was convenient to her to make her point. But some of us are unto her game.

These are the same SAH who carry ***zero*** European SNP/AIM but carry mt-DNA hg-H AND the paragroup hg-V(Pillars of Hercules…..). Significance. SAH were MtDNA hg-H long long long before European probably existed.


Beyoku, Am I right with Table 3? We are back to my TunisianB and your Saharawis again. What is up with these two populations?
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Chirp! chirp! I got this!
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
------
The Jordanian population where Ennaafa got her “Near East” dataset from …. González et al. 2008.

Background: The Levant is a crucial region in understanding human migrations between Africa and Eurasia. Although some mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) studies have been carried out in this region, they have not included the Jordan area. This paper deals with the mtDNA composition of two Jordan populations.


Aim: The main objectives of this article are: first, to report mtDNA sequences of an urban and an isolate sample from Jordan and, second, to compare them with each other and with other nearby populations.
Subjects and methods: The analyses are based on HVSI and HVSII mtDNA sequences and diagnostic RFLPs to unequivocally classify into haplogroups 101 Amman and 44 Dead Sea unrelated individuals from Jordan.


Results: Statistical analysis revealed that, whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbours, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its outstanding Eurasian haplogroup U3 frequency (39%) and its south-Saharan Africa lineages (19%) are the highest in the Middle East. On the contrary, the lack ((preHV)1) or comparatively low frequency (J and T) of Neolithic lineages is also striking. Although strong drift by geographic isolation could explain the anomalous mtDNA pool of the Dead Sea sample, the fact that its mtDNA lineage composition mirrors, in geographic origin and haplogroup frequencies, its Y-chromosome pool, points to founder effect as the main cause. Ancestral M1 lineages detected in Jordan that have affinities with those recently found in Northwest but not East Africa question the African origin of the M1 haplogroup.


Conclusion: Results are in agreement with an old human settlement in the Jordan region. However, in spite of the attested migratory spreads, genetically divergent populations, such as that of the Dead Sea, still exist in the area.
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Classes will continue at a later date.


These Euros. I know all their games. Time you do to. You have been at this long enough.
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
No Arab women and European women both back-migrated to the Sahara 35,000ya. I guess they love the black male....sic.


But Seriously - there is no race. Modern Europeans are an admixture of older African migrants and recent African migrants adpated to live at specifc latitudes.

Modern Europeans are a sub-set of modern Continental Africans. Just as North Africans are a sub-set of SSA.

This is not rocket science.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
And archeological, anthropology and genetic data shows that population replacement took place, in Europe by recent modern Europeans to older African populations.

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So if H originates in Africa and modern Europeans are 40-45% H then modern Europeans, maternally, are largely indigenous North Africans who repalced other Europeans 4,500 years ago.
This is exactly what you are saying if logic is applied
1+1=2


Now moving on to the Y DNA



^^^ Xyyman look at all the R1 (red)

compare that to the North Africans, E3
try completing the picture

So you are saying berber African women wandered into Europe and brought the 40-45% hap H with them?
why did they want to go there?

that's right xyyman, you have no explanation, just ignore this and keep riffin
Just remember there's a hole in the boat, the Y DNA

x, why man ?
tic toc...


Oh I forgot R1 is African too
Let's see if we can make this work
So when did R1 arrive in Europe? hmmmm....
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Hole in the boat? Y-DNA R1?

You don't get it, do you? R-M269 is NOT the genetic counter-part to mtDNA hg-H. Current aDNA shows that hg-H entered Europe 5000y!!! ahead of R-M269 by about 4000years. Achilli got it wrong.

Kefi aDNA observed hg-H in Africa since 12,000YA!!!!!


The enigma is the Western European male line, yes. Enough data has not been disclosed as yet. But Clearly the male line was NOT present in Europe until about the bronze age.


I believe(this is a conjecture), that R-V88 geographic pattern holds the clue to break this wide open.

Three Africanize populations carry a high frequency R-V88...outside of Canmeroon and SSA.

1. Saharawis 2. Siwa Berbers and 3. ...you guessed in.... my Bedoiuns of the Levant.

Significance? Exit points OUT Africa.

But I am getting ahead of myself!
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Now in terms of Y-DNA the confused one above may very well have a point. I and others have pointed out in multiple occasions that NRY hg R* is not only found in Central and West Africa at significant frequencies but their frequencies in Egypt and (some) Arabian bedouin may show expansions. What's more is that in Jordan while R is relatively rare to nonexistent today there are skeletal remains from the Bronze Age that showed significant frequencies of R as well as E in contrast to the predominant J lineages found in modern populations of the same area.

Still in regards to mitochondrial hg H I await for evidence of higher diversity of basal H in Africa than in Eurasia.

In my opinion, the claim that pre-HV (hg R0) being African seems much more plausible than hg H.
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:
And archeological, anthropology and genetic data shows that population replacement took place, in Europe by recent modern Europeans to older African populations.

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So if H originates in Africa and modern Europeans are 40-45% H then modern Europeans, maternally, are largely indigenous North Africans who repalced other Europeans 4,500 years ago.
This is exactly what you are saying if logic is applied
1+1=2


Now moving on to the Y DNA



^^^ Xyyman look at all the R1 (red)

compare that to the North Africans, E3
try completing the picture

So you are saying berber African women wandered into Europe and brought the 40-45% hap H with them?
why did they want to go there?

that's right xyyman, you have no explanation, just ignore this and keep riffin
Just remember there's a hole in the boat, the Y DNA

x, why man ?
tic toc...


Oh I forgot R1 is African too
Let's see if we can make this work
So when did R1 arrive in Europe? hmmmm....

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quote:

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The deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).





These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding


“A Tuareg must speak...Tamasheq, which differentiates us from others.” –F. Koumama

http://www.tuaregjewelry.com/products.php?cat_id=47class=submenulast



Tuareg "subclass" called Inadan (people who work with fire and metals - blacksmiths)


http://www.tuaregjewelry.com/about_koumama.php

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
Vikings raided North Africa in 861AD, taking slaves back to the north. The slaves become known as blue men, in reference to their dark skins. Enno is just such a slave. He's proud and bitter and disobedient, so he has been passed from master to master - desired for the novelty of his skin, but just as soon discarded for his recalcitrance. His latest master is Ohthere, a Viking explorer and trader loyal to Harald Fairhair and the sworn enemy of the pirate Sulke.

http://www.thebookbag.co.uk/reviews/index.php?title=Wolf_Cry_by_Julia_Golding


“A Tuareg must speak...Tamasheq, which differentiates us from others.” –F. Koumama

http://www.tuaregjewelry.com/products.php?cat_id=47class=submenulast



Tuareg "subclass" called Inadan (people who work with fire and metals - blacksmiths)


http://www.tuaregjewelry.com/about_koumama.php

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so this DNA is reflected in modern Finnish people?

Some of the Turaeg have high frequnecies of haplogroups H1, H3 and V. (although low diversity) Libyan Tuareg were recorded by Ottoni at about 63% H
Modern Fins have Haplogroup H 36.3%
But yet H is at high frequency not only in Finland but all over Europe so this Viking scenario doesn't explain that degree of spread

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A percentage has nothing to do with it. In Africa they carry the ancestral alleles/ SNP's of the Hg H sequence. As was shown many times before.





And that older post of mine has nothing to do with this subject. You are mixed up in the head, thus mix up my posts.

That older post explains why Vikings knew about blacks amongst them. As was proposed by Van Sertima's black Vikings as did Dr. Clarke.


http://youtu.be/EqJyK7dw-bs


It also explains the Moors (Mohr) and their color complexion, now that I come to think of it.

quote:

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PC correlates and component loadings (Figure 2) showed a pattern similar to average hg frequencies (Table 2) in both large meta-population sets, with the LBK dataset grouping with Europeans because of a lack of mitochondrial African hgs (L and M1) and preHV, and elevated frequencies of hg V.

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quote:

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Early Medieval Muslim Graves in France: First Archaeological, Anthropological and Palaeogenomic Evidence
Yves Gleize , Fanny Mendisco , Marie-Hélène Pemonge, Christophe Hubert, Alexis Groppi, Bertrand Houix, Marie-France Deguilloux, Jean-Yves Breuil

Published: February 24, 2016DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0148583

Abstract

The rapid Arab-Islamic conquest during the early Middle Ages led to major political and cultural changes in the Mediterranean world. Although the early medieval Muslim presence in the Iberian Peninsula is now well documented, based in the evaluation of archeological and historical sources, the Muslim expansion in the area north of the Pyrenees has only been documented so far through textual sources or rare archaeological data. Our study provides the first archaeo-anthropological testimony of the Muslim establishment in South of France through the multidisciplinary analysis of three graves excavated at Nimes. First, we argue in favor of burials that followed Islamic rites and then note the presence of a community practicing Muslim traditions in Nimes. Second, the radiometric dates obtained from all three human skeletons (between the 7th and the 9th centuries AD) echo historical sources documenting an early Muslim presence in southern Gaul (i.e., the first half of 8th century AD). Finally, palaeogenomic analyses conducted on the human remains provide arguments in favor of a North African ancestry of the three individuals, at least considering the paternal lineages. Given all of these data, we propose that the skeletons from the Nimes burials belonged to Berbers integrated into the Umayyad army during the Arab expansion in North Africa. Our discovery not only discusses the first anthropological and genetic data concerning the Muslim occupation of the Visigothic territory of Septimania but also highlights the complexity of the relationship between the two communities during this period.

Results and Discussion

Three burials with clear evidence of Muslim funerary customs

The graves SP7080, SP7089 and SP9269 present a number of common and specific characteristics that were not recorded in other medieval burials in this area. In each of the graves, the body, which may have been wrapped, was directly placed into the pit on its right-hand side facing southeast (in the direction of Mecca). The upper limbs were generally extended, and the lower limbs were extended and sometimes crossed. The burial practices and the position of the bodies clearly correspond to medieval and modern Muslim burial customs

Muslim presence confirmed by textual sources

Textual sources, specifically the Moissac and Uzès chronicles, offer a significant testimony to the complex and unstable historical context of the Nimes region during the early Middle Ages. They notably attest to a Muslim presence or travel in Nimes between 719 and 752 AD

Three adult males of North African ancestry

An anthropological analysis shows that the three skeletons are those of male adults (S1 File). Although it is difficult to be certain of the biological identity of these individuals, several anthropological characteristics can be highlighted. The skeletons did not show any marks indicating death resulting from fighting. The skeleton from SP7080 displayed an incomplete fusion between the right pisiform bone and the hamate bone (S2 Fig). This extremely rare fusion, mainly seen in African populations, suggests an African origin for the Nimes human remains (e.g., [41–42]).

Because the palaeogenomic data support a North African paternal ancestry of the three individuals from the graves, we believe that they were Berbers integrated into the Arab army during its rapid expansion through North Africa. Such conclusions are in perfect accordance with the ones deriving from the isotopic analyses conducted on two individuals from Plaza del Castillo in Pamplona [47].


North African haplotype E1b1b1b-M81 [12, 44] in all three males’ DNA samples (S3 Table).

If the paternal lineage E-M81 and the maternal lineage L1c3 characterized implies with a high degree of probability a North African origin for all Nimes individuals, we have to note that the large distribution of mtDNA lineages H1 and K (both in North Africa and Europe) do not permit to drive any clear conclusion concerning individuals' maternal ancestry. Indeed, the determination of these maternal lineages on Nimes burials may be both the result of a direct North African maternal origin and the result of admixture between migrating Muslims and local European women. If the low discriminatory power of mtDNA does not permit us to decide between both hypotheses, genome-wide data may permit to precise individuals' ancestries in the next future. Nevertheless, if admixture between Muslims and European women is well established for later al-Andalus periods (genetically established for sites in Andalusia dating to the 12th-13th centuries; [11]), such admixture had not been raised so far for the very first Muslim groups arriving in Europe. If admixture with local women was confirmed concerning Nimes individuals, these data would constitute the most ancient evidence of admixture in the al-Andalus context.

Apart from the mitochondrial haplogroup H1, the maternal and paternal lineages detected in the three Nimes individuals are relatively rare in modern-day France [52]. In comparison to the Iberian Peninsula or Italy, it appears clear that the genetic impact of the Arab rule was less significant in France.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


Nice find. This confirms my earlier claim that Africans probably introduced H1 during the Muslim colonization of Europe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
La Brana! Don't you read? Although I disagree with Dr Winters on WHEN. The mtDNA H is part of the Neolithic package not Islamic. It is too widespread to be Islamic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
That is why modern Europeans are about 70% EEF. EEF replaced WHG/La Brana who was essentially Australiods.

Caraborated by Rosenbergh et al

Also. Observe in the new study. Basal mDNA M is found in aDNA in ancient Europeans going back to the Paleolithic. Indicative of Australians.

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Whites are not 70% WHG,_EEF, or_ANE. Whites originated in Central Asia, and came into Europe after the Kushite migration and have nothing to do with these Neolithic populations.

M was not introduced to Europe by Australians. I believe M was originally introduced by the Khoisan in Europe and the Americas--not Australians. The Australians probably early settled, India, Brazil and Australia.



The Australians may have spread L3(M) across Africa into the Americas.The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (Phillipson,2005). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd and haplotype AF-24 in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. This is because it was not until 65kya that the TMRCA of nonAfrican L3(M,N) exited Africa (Kivisild et al, 2006). See: http://bioresonline.org/archives/A130.pdf

Anatomically modern humans arrived in
Senegal during the Sangoan period. Sangoan
artifacts spread from East Africa to West Africa
between 100-80kya. In Senegal Sangoan material
has been found near Cap Manuel (Giresse, 2008),
Gambia River in Senegal (Davies,1967; WaiOgussu, 1973); and Cap Vert (Phillipson,2005). These people probably settled Brazil 100,000 years.

It is interesting that it is becoming clear that people may have left Africa 100kya, instead of 60kya to settle the world. This may indicate that Australians made their way to America before the Khoisan. See: http://bafsudralam.blogspot.com/2014/11/africans-discover-brazil-100000-years.html


Dr.Nieda Guidon hypothesized that man appeared in Brazil 100,000 years ago from Africa. She illustrated that her hypothesis was confirmed by 1) structures to make fire, i.e. hearths,2) stone tools and charcoal was found in the hearths that date back 100kya,3) the Ice Age prevented people from reaching Brazil from Asia, while the winds and currents would have carried people directly from Africa to Brazil.

.


.
Black Muslims from Senegal probably introduced haplogroup M1c to Europe. See : http://www.plosone.org/annotation/listThread.action?root=6633

.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
La Brana! Don't you read? Although I disagree with Dr Winters on WHEN. The mtDNA H is part of the Neolithic package not Islamic. It is too widespread to be Islamic.

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Consigned, this was shown many times.

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LOL. Even if mtDNA H, was part of the Neolithic package does not mean its distribution among whites is the result of a Neolithic inheritance. It is not a Neolithic relic because there were no whites in Europe during the Neolithic.

The descendants of the the Neolithic carriers of H, would have been killed off by the whites as they took control of Europe,over the past 2000 years. As a result, the most probable spread of this haplogroup took place during the Muslim expansion into Europe after the invasion of Yusuf ibn Tashufin.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The first Americans Naia, and Luzia dating to 12,000 BC were Negroes



NAIA of Mexico




LUZIA of Brazil

Archaeologist have reconstructed the faces of ancient Americans from Brazil and Mexico. These faces are based on the skeletal remains dating back to 12,000BC.

Researchers working on these ancient people note that they resemble Negroes, instead of contemporary Native Americans.


In the Smithsonian Magazine Dr. Chatters who found Naia's skeleton, noted that:

“The small number of early American specimens discovered so far have smaller and shorter faces and longer and narrower skulls than later Native Americans, more closely resembling the modern people of Africa, Australia, and the South Pacific. "This has led to speculation that perhaps the first Americans and Native Americans came from different homelands," Chatters continues, "or migrated from Asia at different stages in their evolution."

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dna-12000-year-old-skeleton-helps-answer-question-who-were-first-americans-180951469/#hexUIhxcwDxMkCAz.99


Although Dr. Chatters believes these Negroes came from Asia this seems unlikely. It is unlikely because the Ice Age would have made it impossible to sail from Asia to Mexico and Brazil at this time. These Negroes were probably Blacks from Africa. This is the most likely origin of these Blacks; the Dafuna boat dating back to 18,000 BC, shows that Africans had boats at this early date.
Posted by Dr. Clyde Winters at 8:46 PM 1 comment:
The Khoisan Probably took haplogroups N and y-chromosome R to Eurasia during the Aurignacian period

.

I discuss the origin Europeans genes in my recent paper: " Were the First Europeans Pale or Dark Skinned? http://www.scirp.org/journal/aahttp://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2014.43016



I quote"
The traditional view for the spread of L3(M, N) across Eurasia is that the M and N macrohaplogroups originated in western Eurasia and returned to Africa as a result of back-migration. The big problem for this theory is that the proposed dates for the origin of haplogroups N and M in western Europe, date to a period when these areas were inhabited by Neanderthal people—not AMH. This supports an African origin for L3(M, N).


The craniometric evidence supports a Khoisan presence in Europe during Aurignacian times. If the Khoisan represent the ancient dark skinned European population, this reality should be able to be confirmed by genetic research.


The most archaic AMH remains come from Florished, South Africa; they date between 190 - 330 kya (Rito et al., 2013). Other ancient fossil evidence of AMH in South Africa come from Broken Hill (c. 110 kya) and the Klasis River caves (c. 65 - 105 kya). Researchers have been surprised to find Khoisan and European admixture. The idea that the Khoisan acquired Eurasian admixture via Ethiosemitic speakers is pure speculation (Pickrell et al., 2013). There is no archaeological
evidence of Ethiopians migrating into East and South Africa, but there is evidence of an ancient migration of Khoisan into Europe based on archaeological and skeletal data.


The Khoisan carry haplogroups L3(M, N). Before they reached Iberia, they probably stopped in West Africa. The basal L3(M) motiff in West Africa is characterized by the Ddel site np 10,394 and Alul site np 10,397 associated with AF-24. This supports my contention that Khoisan speakers early settled West Africa on their way to Iberia.


Granted L3 and L2 are not as old as LOd, but Gonder et al. (2006) provides very early dates for this mtDNA e.g., L3(M, N) 94.3; the South African Khoisan (SAK) carry L1c, L1, L2, L3 M, N dates to 142.3 kya; the Hadza are L2a, L2, L3, M, N, dates to 96.7 kya.


The dates for L1, L2, L3, M, N are old enough for the Khoisan to have taken N to West Africa, where we find L3, L2 and LOd and thence to Iberia as I suggested in my paper (Winters, 2011). It is interesting to note that LO haplogroups are primarily found among Khoisan and West Africans. This shows that at some point in prehistory the Khoisan had migrated into West Africa.


The first modern European reconstructed by Forensic artist Richard Neave based on skull fragments from 35,000 years ago resembled a Khoisan (Figure 1). The skull was discovered in the southwest region of Romania’s Carpathian Mountains. This supports the research of Boule and Vallois that South Africans migrated into Europe 35 kya. This genetic evidence now supports Boule and Vallois of a Khoisan migration into Europe.


The Khoisan may have introduced the L haplogroup to Iberia. The SAK populations carry haplogroups L2, and L3. de Domínguez (2005), noted that much of the ancient mtDNA found in Iberia has no relationship to the people presently living in Iberia today and correspond to African mtDNA haplogroups. de Domínguez (2005) found that the lineages recovered from ancient Iberian skeletons are the African lineages L1b, L2 and L3."



References:



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Boule, M., & Vallois, H. V. (1957). Fossil Man. New York: Dryden Press.

Brace, C. L., Seguchi, N., Quintyn, C. B., Fox, S. C., Nelson, A. R., Manolis, S. K., & Pan, Q. F. (2006). The Questionable Contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European Craniofacial Form. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 103, 242-247. http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.0509801102



Brown, S. J. (2006). Neanderthals and Modern Humans in Western Asia. http://karmak.org/archive/2003/01/westasia.html



Canfield, V. A., Berg, A., Peckins, S. et al. (2014). Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus under Natural Selection. G3, 3, 2059-2067. http://dx.doi.org/10.1534/g3.113.007484



Caramelli, D., Lalueza-Fox, C., Vernesi, C., Lari, M., Casoli, A., Mallegni, B. C., Dupanloup, I., Bertranpetit, J., Barbujani, G., & Bertorelle, G. (2003). Evidence for a Genetic Discontinuity between Neandertals and 24,000 Year-Old Anatomically Modern Europeans. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 100, 6593-6597. http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1130343100



Caramelli, D., Milani, L., Vai, S., Modi, A., Pecchioli, E. et al. (2008). A 28,000 Years Old Cro-Magnon mtDNA Sequence Differs from All Potentially Contaminating Modern Sequences. PLoS ONE, 3, e2700. http://dx.doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0002700

Clark, J. D. (1977). The Origins of Domestication in Ethiopia. 5th Panafrican Congress of Prehistory and Quaternary Studies, Nairobi.

de Domínguez, E. F. (2005). Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca mediterránea. PhD Thesis, Barcelona: Universitat de Barcelona, Departament Biologia Animal.

Diop, A. (1974). The African Origin of Civilization. Brooklyn, NY: Lawrence Hill Books.

Diop, A. (1991). Civilization or Barbarism. Brooklyn, NY: Lawrence Hill Books.

DuBois, W. E. B. (1941). The World and Africa.

Ehret, C. (1979). On the Antiquity of Agriculture in Ethiopia. Journal of African History, 20, 161-177.
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Gilead, I. (2005). The Upper Paleolithic Period in the Levant. Journal of World Prehistory, 5, 105-154.

Gonder, M. K., Mortensen, H. M., Reed, F. A., de Sousa, A., & Tishkoff, S. A. (2006). Whole mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages. Molecular Biology and Evolution, 24, 757-768. http://dx.doi.org/10.1093/molbev/msl209

González, A. M., Cabrera, V. M., Larruga, J. M., Tounkara, A., Noumsi, G., Thomas, B. N., & Moulds, J. M. (2006). Mitochondrial DNA Variation in Mauritania and Mali and Their Genetic Relationship to Other Western Africa Populations. Annals of Human Genetics, 70, 631-657. http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2006.00259.x?cookieSet=1&journalCode=ahg
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Olalde, I., Allentoft, M. E., Sanchez-Quinto, F., Santpere, G., Chiang, C. W. K., DeGiorgio, M. et al. (2014). Derived Immune and Ancestral Pigmentation Alleles in a 7,000-Year-Old Mesolithic European. Nature, 507, 225-228. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature12960

Pickrell, J. K., Patterson, N., Loh, P. R., Lipson, M., Berger, B., Stoneking, M., Pakendorf, B., & Reich, D. (2013). Ancient West Eurasian Ancestry in Southern and Eastern Africa. http://arxiv.org/abs/1307.8014

Prufer, K., Racimo, F., Patterson, N., Jay, F., Sankararaman, S., Sawyer, S. et al. (2014). The Complete Genome Sequences of Neanderthal from the Altai, Mountains. Nature, 505, 43-49.

Quibtanana-Murci, L., Semino, O., Bandelt, H. J., Passaro, G., McElreadey, K., & Santachiara-Benerecetti, A. S. (1999). Genetic Evidence of an Early Exit of Homo Sapiens from Africa through Eastern Africa. Nature Genetics, 23, 437-441. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/70550



Rito, T., Richard, M. B., Fernandes, V., Alshamal, F., Cerny, V., Pereira, L., & Soares, P. (2013). The First Modern Human Dispersals aross Africa. PLoS ONE, 8, e80031.

Scozzari, R., Massaia, A., Trombatta, B., Bellusci, G., Myres, N. M., Novelletto, A., & Cruciani, F. (2014). An Unbiased Resource of Novel SNP Markers Provides a New Chronology for Human Y-Chromosome and Reveals a Deep Phylogenetic Structure in Africa. Genome Research.

Skoglund, P., Malmström, H., Omrak, A., Raghavan, M., Valdiosera, C., Günther, T., Hall, P., Tambets, K., Parik, J.,Sjögren, K. G., Apel, J., Willerslev, E., Storå, J., Götherström, A., & Jakobsson, M. (2014). Genomic Diversity and Admixture Differs for Stone-Age Scandinavian Foragers and Farmers. Science, 344, 747-750. http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1253448



Stevanovitch, A., Gilles, A., Bouzaid, E., Kefi, R., Paris, F., Gayraud, R. P., Spadoni, J. L., El-Chenawi, F., & Béraud-Colomb, E. (2003). Mitochondrial DNA Sequence Diversity in a Sedentary Population from Egypt. Annals of Human Genetics, 68, 23-29. http://dx.doi.org/10.1046/j.1529-8817.2003.00057.x

Steven, L. K., Stiner, M. C., Reese, D. S., & Gulec, E. (2001). Ornaments of the Earliest Upper Paleolithic: New Insights

from the Levant. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, 98, 7641-7646. http://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.121590798
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Winters, C. (2008). Aurignacian Culture: Evidence of Western Exit for Anatomically Modern Humans. South Asian Anthropologist, 8, 79-81.

Winters, C. (2010). Origin and Spread of the Haplogroup N. Bioresearch Bulletin, 3, 116-122.

Winters, C. (2011). The Gibraltar out of Africa Exit for Anatomically Modern Humans.
WebmedCentral BIOLOGY, 2, ArticleID: WMC002311. http://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/2311
.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 



There was a serial expansion of haplogroup L3 (M,N} across Africa into Eurasia . This haplogroup probably originated in East Africa near the great Lakes region around 93.4kya. From Tanzania, Khoisan speaking people probably spread the haplogroup into Ethiopia 80kya and into West Africa 80kya [28]. Sometime before 40kya carriers of haplogroup N from Cameroon and possibly the Senegambia migrated across the Straits of Gibraltar into Iberia . The Khoisan speakers probably spread the Aurignacian culture throughout Europe.


The Khoisan were probably the original North Africans. They were the Cro-Magnon people who took the Augrinacian culture into Europe.

The Khoisan are the ancestors of the Black Berbers whoes descendants probably live in Morocco and the Atlas Mountains.
The Black Berbers of the Atlas Mountains and other parts of Northwest Africa are of Sub-Saharan origin and took African mtDNA into Western Europe over 40kya. The Gibraltar Straits appears to be the most reliable route for the spread of many mtDNA haplogroups from Africa, into Europe over the past 30ky (Winters,2012), including L3(M,N) .
The Khoisan carry L1c,L1i, L2b, L3d ( Rito, et al ,2013) . The motif L3b, is widespread in western Africans. It is mainly found among populations that speak languages of the Niger-Congo family like the Mandekan.

Like most African haplogroups the control region of hg L1i include 16189,16223 and 16311, just like L3a and L3b. The mutation that connects the Khoisan to the spread of L3(M,N) is AF24. The AF24 mutation is found in LOd and among the Khoisan and Senegalese .The existence of AF24 in Senegal and Southern Africa suggest that L1c, L2b, L3d and L3e is not the result of intermarriage with Bantu immigrants , as suggested by Rito et al(2013) .

LOd is the oldest mtDNA haplogroup . This haplogroup is primarily carried by the Khoisan people (Winters,2014) . It is also found among Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa where we also find LOa in West Africa in addition to L3b.

The Cro Magnon DNA found in the ancient skeletons dates back to the Aurignacian period (Winters,2011). The Cro magnon skeletons belong to the N haplogroup.

The Cro Magnon skeletons carried N1a,N1b,N1c and N* (Winters, 2010,2011). It is characterized by motifs 00073G,10873C, 10238T and A4CC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400. Most of the skeletons carried hg N*.

It is obvious that L3 (M,N) had expanded into Europe prior to the Neolithic.
.


Frigi et al (2010), in Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations noted that: “Our results also point to a less ancient western African gene flow to Tunisia involving haplogroups L2a and L3b. Thus the sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africa starting from the east would have taken place before the Neolithic. The western African contribution to North Africa should have occurred before the Sahara’s formation (15,000 BP)”.

This would explain why Pericot and Dominguez (2005) found evidence of hg L3 at ancient Iberian sites. Luis Pericot was sure that the populations associated with the Gravettian (32kya) and Soultrean (23kya) cultures were phylogenetically Sub-Saharan African (Dominguez,2005). Dominguez (2005) found that the lineages recovered from ancient skeletons associated with these cultures belonged to the African lineages L1b,L2 and L3. Almost 50% of the lineages from the Abauntz Chalcolithic deposits and Tres Montes, in Navarre are the Sub-Saharan lineages L1b,L2 and L3.


In summary, the Black Berbers took African mtDNA into Western Europe over 40kya. The Tuareg probably helped spread hg H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

References:
Domínguez E.F. (2005). Polimorfismos de DNA mitocondrial en poblaciones antiguas de la cuenca
mediterránea. Universitat de Barcelona. Departament de Biologia Animal, 2005 (PhD thesis).

Frigi et al. (2010). Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations, Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4).
Rito T, Richards MB, Fernandes V, Alshamali F, Cerny V, et al. (2013) The First Modern Human Dispersals across Africa. PLoS ONE 8(11): e80031. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0080031

Winters,C. (2010). Origin and spread of the Haplogroup N. Bioresearch Bull (2010) 3:116-122.

Winters C.(2011). The Gibraltar Out of Africa Exit for Anatomically Modern Humans. WebmedCentral BIOLOGY 2011;2(10):WMC002319 doi: 10.9754/journal.wmc.2011.002319

Winters, C. (2014). The Hadza Are Related to the South African Khoisan. http://www.exposingblacktruth.org/the-hadza-are-related-to-the-south-african-khoisan/

Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
La Brana! Don't you read? Although I disagree with Dr Winters on WHEN. The mtDNA H is part of the Neolithic package not Islamic. It is too widespread to be Islamic.

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Consigned, this was shown many times.

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Even if mtDNA H, was part of the Neolithic package does not mean its distribution among whites is the result of a Neolithic inheritance. It is not a Neolithic relic because there were no whites in Europe during the Neolithic.

The descendants of the the Neolithic carriers of H, would have been killed off by the whites as they took control of Europe,over the past 2000 years.

As a result, the most probable spread of this haplogroup took place during the Muslim expansion into Europe after the invasion of Yusuf ibn Tashufin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

Some of Doron Behar’s work has shown that Islam and Judaism may have a African Saharan origin We know that their no genetic evidence of “Arabs” invading North Africa or worst yet Europe.

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Originally posted by xyyman:
It is common knowledge that in Europe Hunter Gatherers were mtDNA hg-U, Although recent 2016 paper has Basal hg-M being present further back in the Paleolithic . Indicative of Australoids. The Neolithic brought in mtDNA hg-H which is the dominant mtDNA haplogroup currently. I long had doubts about the so-called Muslim Expansion …and expulsion within Europe. Science is proving me correct. Archeological evidence now point to “Islamic” customs existing in Europe and of North Africa LONG before the inception of Mohammed and Islam. Some of Doron Behar’s work has shown that Islam and Judaism may have a African Saharan origin We know that their no genetic evidence of “Arabs” invading North Africa or worst yet Europe. Further, studies have shown that the “Arabs’ were never expulsed from Iberia back to North Africa. Studies cited many times. These Europeans history books are filled with lies and exaggerations. To this day Germany(10%) and many European countries carry high frequency of North African E1b1b and it’s sub-clades. It looks like these Africans never left Europe. They were simply absorbed by new-comers R1b1b-M269 in the Medieval Age. My gut feeling is many of the Romans were e1b1b-Can’t wait for the aDNA.

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Originally posted by xyyman:
My belief , based upon DNA and Geography, is that ALL humans within and outside Africa 50,000ya looked like “Negro” Australoids or Dravidians. Modern African “Negro” is a recent adaptation. Just as Andaman Islanders.

Even PaleoAmricans were Australoid Negros. Am I wrong?

Wasn’t La Brana yDNA hg-C? Another Australoid marker

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quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
First off. We have to stop eye-balling. Based ONLY on genetics PaleoEuropeans are genetically closer to South Asians ie Australoids/Melenesians/Andaman Islanders. Eg KOS14 and La Brana. This new study on PaleoEuropeans confirm that mtDNA –M was at higher frequency than it is today and during the Neolithic. Obviously these people were Australoids type Black “Negros”. Again the skin tone was confirmed through genetics. The first OOA metapopulation were NOT your stereotypical modern African “Negros”.

Keep also in mind the modern Khoisans do not carry U or M. Again. I am not sure what a Khoisan looked like 50,000ya.

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Correct today the Khoisan are said to not carry L3(M,N). This was probably not the case in the past. The Khoisan were the first amh to settle Europe. The evidence is that these first Europeans, the Khoisan, took with the same cultures they practiced in Africa, e.g., Solutrean.

There have been numerous "Negroid skeletons" found in Europe. Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois, in Fossil Man, provide an entire chapter on the Africans/Negroes of Europe Anta Diop also discussed the Negroes of Europe in Civilization or Barbarism, pp.25-68. Also W.E. B. DuBois, discussed these Negroes in the The World and Africa, pp.86-89. DuBois noted that "There was once a an "uninterrupted belt' of Negro culture from Central Europe to South Africa" (p.88).

Boule and Vallois, note that "To sum up, in the most ancient skeletons from the Grotte des Enfants we have a human type which is readily comparable to modern types and especially to the Negritic or Negroid type" (p.289). They continue, "Two Neolithic individuals from Chamblandes in Switzerland are Negroid not only as regards their skulls but also in the proportions of their limbs. Several Ligurian and Lombard tombs of the Metal Ages have also yielded evidences of a Negroid element.

Since the publication of Verneau's memoir, discoveries of other Negroid skeletons in Neolithic levels in Illyria and the Balkans have been announced. The prehistoric statues, dating from the Copper Age, from Sultan Selo in Bulgaria are also thought to protray Negroids.

In 1928 Rene Bailly found in one of the caverns of Moniat, near Dinant in Belgium, a human skeleton of whose age it is difficult to be certain, but seems definitely prehistoric. It is remarkable for its Negroid characters, which give it a reseblance to the skeletons from both Grimaldi and Asselar (p.291).

Boule and Vallois, note that "We know now that the ethnography of South African tribes presents many striking similarities with the ethnography of our populations of the Reindeer Age. Not to speak of their stone implements which, as we shall see later , exhibit great similarities, Peringuey has told us that in certain burials on the South African coast 'associated with the Aurignacian or Solutrean type industry...."(p.318-319). They add, that in relation to Bushman art " This almost uninterrupted series leads us to regard the African continent as a centre of important migrations which at certain times may have played a great part in the stocking of Southern Europe. Finally, we must not forget that the Grimaldi Negroid skeletons sho many points of resemblance with the Bushman skeletons". They bear no less a resemblance to that of the fossil Man discovered at Asslar in mid-Sahara, whose characters led us to class him with the Hottentot-Bushman group.

The Boule and Vallois research makes it clear that the Bushman expanded across Africa on into Europe via Spain as the Grimaldi people. This makes it clear that the Bushman/Khoisan people were not isolated in South Africa. The Khoisan people carry the haplogroup N. The Hadza are Bushman they carry haplogroup N.




Cro-Magnon people carried haplogroup N:

quote:

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Specific mtDNA sites outside HVRI were also analyzed (by amplification, cloning, and sequencing of the surrounding region) to classify more precisely the ancient sequences within the phylogenetic network of present-time mtDNAs (35, 36). Paglicci-25 has the following motifs: +7,025 AluI, 00073A, 11719G, and 12308A. Therefore, this sequence belongs to either haplogroups HV or pre-HV, two haplogroups rare in general but with a comparatively high frequencies among today's Near-Easterners (35). Paglicci-12 shows the motifs 00073G, 10873C, 10238T, and AACC between nucleotide positions 10397 and 10400, which allows the classification of this sequence into the macrohaplogroupN,containing haplogroups W, X, I, N1a, N1b, N1c, and N*. Following the definition given in ref. 36, the presence of a single mutation in 16,223 within HRVI suggests a classification of Paglicci-12 into the haplogroup N*, which is observed today in several samples from the Near East and, at lower frequencies, in the Caucasus (35). It is difficult to say whether the apparent evolutionary relationship between Paglicci-25 and Paglicci-12 and those populations is more than a coincidence. Indeed, the haplogroups to which the Cro-Magnon type sequences appear to belong are rare among modern samples, and therefore their frequencies are poorly estimated. However, genetic affinities between the first anatomically modern Europeans and current populations of the Near East make sense in the light of the likely routes of Upper Paleolithic human expansions in Europe, as documented in the archaeological record (37).


http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/100/11/6593

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