This is topic The Levant an Extension of Africa/Sons of Ham in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
I made this EXACT same thread on another site yesterday and it was well received. Basicaly a copy & paste. This is a topic that I've been wanting to make. The stuff I'm gonna be posting is most likely not gonna be anything new to most of you; since some of the sources I am going to use was most likely also posted on here before. But the reason why I decided to create this thread on here is because I want to see if any of you agree with my stance and critique it.

The things I'm touching base on:
1. Should the Levant be an extension of Africa?
2. Hamitic theory
3. Sons of Ham and were the people of Canaan black?
4. Were the Jews black like other Southern Canaaites black?


But I want to clarify that this is just speculation on my part. This is not a confirmed opinion of mines, but something I am recently starting to research in. Again this is just speculation, basically a theory; though I will be posting some sources that back up some of my claims


Part 1: Origins of the Hamitic theory

Kush(Sudan), the oldest:


Mizraim(Kemet):



Phut(Libya)



And finally Canaan(Levant):


Going by the Bible/Hebrew definition the sons of Ham were of the black race. And were apart of the Land of Ham:


From what I can see "The Land of Ham" was mostly Northeast Africa, but also extending into the Levant and some small parts of Arabia. Again from what I can see. The things of the Sons of Ham all have in common is that they were not only described as being "black" according to the bible and were mostly Northeast African, but also they had a big influence in the bible and the Sons of Ham are known for the great civilizations they had produced. Egypt being a good example. Though like I have said many times, Egypt is just a small slice in a larger pie.

From what I've seen Eurocentrics have a big obsession with the Northeast part of Africa:



Not only did Northeast Africans have a very strong presence in the bible, but also one can argue that modern world religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam has ancestry in Africa. Which is kinda a shock to Eurocentrics/racist. Not only that but Afro-Asiatic which is said to have originated in modern Ethiopia, which people Hebrew/Arab is a branch of. Further supporting that modern religion may have ancestry in Northeast Africa. This is a BIG reason why Eurocentrics so desperately want to claim the entire Afro-Asiatic language family. I personally compare it to the Nazi's and Indo-Europeans. The Nazi's tried to claim Germanic people were the original/first Indo-European speakers and that the language originated in Germany; thus they are the "master race". Though we know Indo-European doesn't even originate in Germany or Europe for that matter, but outside Europe. IIRC probably India, Iran or somewhere near those locations. To me Eurocentric's use this same tactic with Afro-Asiatic with their Nostratic theory. Instead of AA originating in Africa, it originated among "Caucasoid" in Eurasia and thus the original speakers of AA were not Africans but them and by that they can claim Northeast African civilization and people.

Not only that but if we accept that Canaan was the son of Ham and thus black; wouldn't that mean the Phoenicians were maybe black!???? IIRC it is said that the Phoenicians were descendants from Caanites. The same Phoenicians who had direct/strong influence on the western world. Especially when it came to writing(who they in term got their writing from the Egyptians). Again this is a shock to Eurocentrics. And again is the reason why Egypt is a small slice in a larger pie.

This is why Eurocentrics want to claim all of Northeast Africans. Its the reason why they not only stopped saying blacks are cursed Hamites(but Canaan was only cursed), but also why they reversed/twisted the definition of Hamitic to no longer meaning black but non-black Caucasoid in general during the 19/20th century. After they only discovered the greatness of the children of Ham and their strong influence on the world. And because of that, they could no longer be black. Its a reason why Northeast Africans who look like this are considered Caucasoid:


But during the days of slavery blacks were considered Hamites. BUT they were cursed, due to the myth of the curse of Ham. Funny how they twist definitions to only fit their agenda. This guys is the Eurocentric Hamitic race theory in a nutshell.

But lets continue....

Part 2 in next post...
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.
 

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Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
This is all explained in the Joseph K. Pickrell study (2014):

quote:

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Conclusions

Based on these analyses, we can propose a model for the spread of west Eurasian ancestry in southern and eastern Africa as follows. First, a large-scale movement of people from west Eurasia into Ethiopia around 3,000 y ago (perhaps from southern Arabia and associated with the D’mt kingdom and the arrival of Ethiosemitic languages ) resulted in the dispersal of west Eurasian ancestry throughout eastern Africa. This was then followed by a migration of an admixed population (perhaps pastoralists related to speakers of Khoe–Kwadi languages) from eastern Africa to southern Africa, with admixture occurring ∼1,500 y ago. Advances in genotyping DNA from archaeological samples may allow aspects of this model to be directly tested.

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LINK:
http://www.pnas.org/content/111/7/2632.long
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Part 2: Levant an extension of Africa? And were the Ancient Canaanite's black?
Like I said I've always held the view that at least Southern Canaan(Levent) was an extension of African until at least the period of the Romans and Christianity. To me the Levant was an extension of Northeast Africa going as far back to the Neolithic with the Natufians. This is just my personal opinion. Though the Levant is just a hopscotch away from Africa. :yeshrug: Not only that , but Southern Canaan(Levant) is ACTUALLY apart of Africa if you like at their tectonic plates. So where does Africa really end?


The Levant was always a crossroad, but from the studies I read it seems the migrations were mostly coming from Africa and into the Middle East. The most known were the Natufians. Who were said to spread the AA language, but also spread agriculture to the middle east and Europe. The Natufians basically were one of the earliest colonizers of the area. African culture pre-dominated the area, even for the pre-dynastic culure of Egypt.

quote:

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"Approximately 14 kya, climatic changes associated with the end of the Last Glacial Maximum resulted in regions around the world becoming more favorable to human exploitation. Northern Africa is one such region, and ~13 kya, novel technologies (“Natufian”) thought to be the immediate precursor to agricultural technologies emerged and were associated with semisedentary subsistence and population expansions in northeastern Africa (35). Moreover, before the emergence of the Natufian styled artifacts, the archaeological record includes two artifact styles, the “Geometric Kebaran” and the “Mushabian” associated with Middle Eastern and Northern African populations, respectively (35).The archaeological evidence suggests the peoples using these assemblages interacted for well over 1,000 years, and linguistic evidence suggests that the peoples using these assemblages may have spoken some form of proto-Afroasiatic (35, 36). Although the origins of the Afroasiatic language family remain contentious, linguistic data generally support a model in which the Afroasiatic language family arose in Northern Africa >10 kya (36). Moreover, analyses of the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic language family suggest that proto-Cushitic arose and diversified at least 7 kya, and this likely took place in Ethiopia .

Intriguingly, the origin and diversification of proto-Afroasiatic is consistent with the spread of intensive plant collection in the archaeological record, and some interpret this pattern to represent a model in which proto-Afroasiatic speakers developed the novel subsistence technology resulting in the expansion and spread of their Afroasiatic descendants in the region (37). Some examples of the relevant linguistic data include reconstructed Chadic root words for “porridge” and “sorghum” and the Cushitic root words for “grain” and “wheat” (37). Because these and other root words are present in many of the Chadic and Cushitic languages, it is assumed that they were present in the proto-Chadic and proto-Cushitic languages and therefore must be as old as those proto-languages (37).

The genetic data appear to be consistent with the archaeological and linguistic data indicative of extensive population interactions between North African and Middle Eastern populations. A recent NRY study explores the distribution of haplogroups in a sample of African, Middle Eastern, and European males (38). Whereas a subclade of haplogroup E (M35) appears to have arisen in eastern Africa over 20 kya and subsequently spread to the Middle East and Europe, haplogroup J (M267) appears to have arisen in the Middle East over 20 kya and subsequently spread into northern Africa (38). A recent study of genomewide autosomal microsatellite markers reports that Middle Eastern and African samples share the highest number of alleles that are also absent in other non-African samples, consistent with bidirectional gene flow(1). In addition, a recent study of domestic goat mtDNA and NRY variation reports similar findings as well as evidence of trade along the Strait of Gibraltar (39). The combined archaeological, linguistic, and genetic data, therefore, suggest bidirectional migration of peoples between northern Africa and the Levant for at least the past ~14 ky."

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quote:

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Many human craniofacial dimensions are largely of neutral adaptive significance, and an analysis of their variation can serve as an indication of the extent to which any given population is genetically related to or differs from any other. When 24 craniofacial measurements of a series of human populations are used to generate neighbor-joining dendrograms, it is no surprise that all modern European groups, ranging all of the way from Scandinavia to eastern Europe and throughout the Mediterranean to the Middle East, show that they are closely related to each other. The surprise is that the Neolithic peoples of Europe and their Bronze Age successors are not closely related to the modern inhabitants, although the prehistoric/modern ties are somewhat more apparent in southern Europe. It is a further surprise that the Epipalaeolithic Natufian of Israel from whom the Neolithic realm was assumed to arise has a clear link to Sub-Saharan Africa. Basques and Canary Islanders are clearly associated with modern Europeans. When canonical variates are plotted, neither sample ties in with Cro-Magnon as was once suggested. The data treated here support the idea that the Neolithic moved out of the Near East into the circum-Mediterranean areas and Europe by a process of demic diffusion but that subsequently the in situ residents of those areas, derived from the Late Pleistocene inhabitants, absorbed both the agricultural life way and the people who had brought it.

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http://www.pnas.org/content/103/1/242.short

Cranio wise the Natufians cluster with Niger-Congo like people:



I am aware that this is well before the Ancient Canaanites and Phoenicians, but again African culture pre-dominated the area. These are the people who made up part of the later Phoenicians long before there was a Phoenicia. And before the colonization of the area by the Egyptians.

But lets talk about the Ancient Canaanites and Phoenicians themselves.

With the Phoenicians I get the sense because southern Canaan was so heavily influenced by North East Africans, since at least the Neolithic, the Phoenicians were maybe a distant branch of Africans..


This makes sense because Ta-Seti established relations with Byblos even before the unification of Egypt. Egypt would come to have an overwhelming cultural and economic influence over Byblos. And one must note that Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony.

Now I am aware that there were Ancient Canaanites who did not look black, but white(keeping it real), but after doing some research around the web, I found that the white looking Canaanites/Syrians were differentiated from the majority black looking Canaanites by the Greeks. IIRC Canaan and Syria received large immigrants north from the Caucasus. The Greeks called the new non-black Syrians "Leucosyrian" meanng white and the black ones "Melanosyrians" meaning burnt. It's interesting because the Phoenicians ere said to belong to the 'black' - Melanosyrian branch along with many other Southern Canannites.

Lets see how the Greeks and others themselves described the two:

quote:

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Leucosyri, to distinguish them from the people from beyond Taurus, which bear also the name of Syrians, but who, compared to the cistauric populations, are to have the dye browned by the heat of the sun, while those do not have it, difference which gave place to the denomination of Leucosyri.

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quote:

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.. the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."

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quote:

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The Cha'ab Arabs, the
present possessors of the more southern parts of Babylonia, are nearly
black; and the "black Syrians," of whom Strabo speaks, seem intended to
represent the Babylonians.

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quote:

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Sayce has identified the Hittites with the "White Syrians" of Strabo as contrasted with "the Black Syrians or Semitic Aramaeans, east of the Amanus"

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quote:

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LEUCOSYRI, the ancient name of the Syrians inhabiting Cappadocia, by which they were distinguished from the more southern Syrians, who were of a darker complexion.
(Herod. i.72, vii.72;
Strabo, xvi. p.737;
Pliny, H.N. vi.3;
Eustath. ad Dionys. 772,970.)

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A Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Volume II, Pages 171-172


Now lets look at how some of these "Melanosyrians" of southern Levant/Canaan were depicted:



Face of a Canaanite man (fragment) from Beth Shan Painting on a jar (about 1300 BCE)




A supply ship. On deck, the captain is haranguing a crew of Canaanites. Painted wood, 12th Dynasty (2000-1785 BCE), Middle Kingdom, Egypt.




Canaanite God Reshef


More...





A Phoenician bust in the Egyptian style(from the Louvre)


So one could conclude that the Canaan was inhabited by blacks and it had a close relationship with Northeast Africa, though there were later migration from non-blacks to the area. Just my opinion. As for the Phoenicians, this thread really wasn't about them, but the area they are from but if one was to take in account of Canaanites being Ham's descendants and Phoenicians being descendants of Canaanites, then shouldn't one conclude that the Phoenicians may have been black?


Part 3 in next post...
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Part 3: Were the Ancient Jews black like other Southern Canaanites?


I always held the idea of the Ancient Jews being black as nonsense due to the nonsense by radicals like the Black Hebrew Israelite's. But after doing some research around the web, I'm starting to really entertain that the early Jews were just migrating Egyptians/Ethiopians. I'm going to try and post sources that support this theory.


In part 2 we already know about Africans migrating into the Levant since the Neolithic. And also how the people of Southern Canaan, (which Israel is apart of) were described. Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony. Even during pre-dynastic times. A number of Israeli archaeologists claim ethnic Egyptians dominated some important Jewish territories which is interesting to me. Some people still believe the Jews were enslaved in Ancient Egypt, but we know from Zahi Hawass article that was not the case. But touching base on the known exodus hypothesis, Manetho and others wrote of a leprosy outbreak around 1400 BCE (Armana period) where high numbers of Egyptians and Ethiopians were forced to leave the country. I wouldn't doubt these same exiles going into Canaan and eventually taking over. Perhaps later they were seen as the Hebrew? Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony and the Hebrew retain certain customs that were once familiar to Egyptians and Ethiopians (for instance, circumcision).


But getting back on track of the early Jews being migrating Egyptians/Ethiopians, lets look at what some Greek/Roman writers state:

quote:

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One of the customs most zealously observed among the Aegyptians is this, that they rear every child that is born, and circumcise the males, and excise the females, as is also customary among the Judaeans, who also are Aegyptian in origin, as I have already stated in my account of them.

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quote:

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The majority of people say the Judaeans were those Ethiopians whom fear and hatred obliged to change their habitations, in the reign of king Cepheus.

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quote:

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"The excavation uncovered a mass of human bones, which was estimated to form the remains of fifteen hundred individuals [...] Remains of 695 skulls were brought to London by the British expedition [...] Curiously, the crania indicate a close resemblance to the population of Egypt at this time [...] 'the relationships found suggests that the population of the town in 700 B.C. was entirely, or almost entirely, of Egyptian origin...' They show further, that the population of Lakish was probably derived from Upper Egypt [...] If so, this indeed is a conclusion of far-reaching implications."

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quote:

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That Syria was once the domain of Cepheus, an Ethiopian king,Tacitus wrote that the Romans believed that the Jews originated in Ethiopia but fled the persecutions of the King. Strabo, even earlier,stressed that people of Western Judea was Africiod: But although the inhibatance are mixed up thus,the most accredited reports in regards to the people of Jerusalem represents the ancestors of the present Judeans as they are called Egyptians.

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quote:

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D. L. Risdon in BIOMETRIKA 1939 31:99-166 reports
the Lachish cranial series has its closest resemblance
to the 4th dynasty series from Deshasheh and Medum
in Lower Egypt and the 18th dynasty samples from Thebes
and Abydos in Upper Egypt. Cranial samples from other
Palestinian sites (Gezer, Megiddo) agree with the Lachish
cranium. Thus we have a clear African "racial" continuum
in the Hebrews and Egyptians.

The phrase "black and beautiful" ( sh*hhora w*nawa )
originates from a Hebrew document, Song of Songs 1:5,
where an Israelite woman from Shunem exclaims her sun
enhanced ebon beauty to some color and class struck
dusky members of the royal household who kept themselves
behind palace walls out of sunlight. For the Shulammite to
have tanned black she must have already been very brown.

In the midrash (Hebrew legendary lore) Shem teamed up with
Hham in the war against Yapheth, progenitor of the northern
people of pallour. The PIRQE DE RIBBI ELI`EZER 28a classes
Shem with people of colour. It says that Shem was especially
blessed black and beautiful, Hham was blessed black like the
raven, and Yapheth was blessed white all over.

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quote:

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Tacitus, a younger contemporary of Josephus, lists
common Roman opinions on Jewish origins. He wrote
that many were assured Judahites were descendents
of Kush*tes (The Histories V.2). Is this a view lurking
within Amos 9:7?

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IMO this is why the Romans stated the Jews are from Ethiopia/Kush:




And to elaborate more...Note the hair depicted on David (dreadlocks) is consistent with the depictions of Egyptians, Ethiopians and Berbers in Greco-Roman art:



Joseph being sold to Ishmaelites.




Peter weeping after denying Christ three times, and the cock crowing; a deep pit represented by large jar with a mir of clay.




David and Goliath, each accompanied by a personification: David by Might and Goliath by Pride.




The capture of David by Philistines in Gath.




David in the cave of Adullam.





David being crowned king of Israel.


Again this is just my personal theory that the early Jews were a subset of Egyptians/Ethiopians. But I think damn good one. The origins of the early Jews is really anyone's guess. But imo the Jews being black is more possible than them being white.


Conclusion:


Again all of this was just speculation on my part. Though the argument for Ancient Canaanites/Jews being black is not Afrocentric at all, but a very, very high possibility. Since the Levant was a crossroad and a hopscotch away from Northeast Africa. The race on the Jews/Canaanites is anyone's argument really. The root of my argument is based off Canaan being a son of Ham which is the black race in the bible. Though I still hold on that the Levant is an extension of Africa and don't think it is speculation. But what is for sure is that Eurocentrics have an obession with the children of Ham and areas surrounding their location.
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Tukuler , Djhuti, Lioness, Matu, Ardo? What are you guys stance on this? Because I seen you guys having a similar discussion on this particular thread.
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008446;p=4
 

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Posted by Ardo (Member # 1797) on :
 
Tukuler = Ardo = al~Takruri

the Tekrur bordering Senegal & Mauritania = Futa Toro = the Tekrur in the Western Sahel


and this thread is
really testing the boundaries of what's in
EGYPTOLOGY's domain vs that of ANCIENT EGYPT.
We'd like tighter documentation i.e. citations
when
quoting references (author, title, publisher, year).

Technically when you quote a "blogger" and
don't credit them by name you're violating
intellectual property rights (don't get sced
)

Appreciate the Dawiydh with naziruth hair images.
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ardo:
Tukuler = Ardo = al~Takruri

the Tekrur bordering Senegal & Mauritania = Futa Toro = the Tekrur in the Western Sahel

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Ardo:
and this thread is
really testing the boundaries of what's in
EGYPTOLOGY's domain vs that of ANCIENT EGYPT.
We'd like tighter documentation i.e. citations
when
quoting references (author, title, publisher, year).

Technically when you quote a "blogger" and
don't credit them by name you're violating
intellectual property rights (don't get sced
)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ardo:
Appreciate the Dawiydh with naziruth hair images.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

I made this EXACT same thread on another site yesterday and it was well received. Basicaly a copy & paste. This is a topic that I've been wanting to make. The stuff I'm gonna be posting is most likely not gonna be anything new to most of you; since some of the sources I am going to use was most likely also posted on here before. But the reason why I decided to create this thread on here is because I want to see if any of you agree with my stance and critique it.

The things I'm touching base on:
1. Should the Levant be an extension of Africa?
2. Hamitic theory
3. Sons of Ham and were the people of Canaan black?
4. Were the Jews black like other Southern Canaaites black?

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quote:

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And finally Canaan(Levant):

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Are you sure that the above picture depicts Canaanites? I thought I've seen the above image tributaries labeled as Mesopotamians.

Anyway, here is the only known depiction of black Canaanites paying tribute.



^ Note that there are white types among them as well.

[ 22. August 2020, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Blessed, this topic has been discussed too many times in this forum on different occasions most recently here. I suggest you try looking into the archives or do google searches on past Egyptsearch topics that deal with this.

I will say that it pretty much established FACT that were expansions from Egypt into the Levant during the mesolithic i.e. Natufians who were once labeled as proto-Canaanites and even proto-Semites.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Are you sure that the above picture depicts Canaanites? I thought I've seen the above image tributaries labeled as Mesopotamians.

Anyway, here is the only known depiction of black Canaanites paying tribute.



^ Note that there are white types among them as well.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:

Part 3: Were the Ancient Jews black like other Southern Canaanites?


I always held the idea of the Ancient Jews being black as nonsense due to the nonsense by radicals like the Black Hebrew Israelite's. But after doing some research around the web, I'm starting to really entertain that the early Jews were just migrating Egyptians/Ethiopians. I'm going to try and post sources that support this theory.


In part 2 we already know about Africans migrating into the Levant since the Neolithic. And also how the people of Southern Canaan, (which Israel is apart of) were described. Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony. Even during pre-dynastic times. A number of Israeli archaeologists claim ethnic Egyptians dominated some important Jewish territories which is interesting to me. Some people still believe the Jews were enslaved in Ancient Egypt, but we know from Zahi Hawass article that was not the case. But touching base on the known exodus hypothesis, Manetho and others wrote of a leprosy outbreak around 1400 BCE (Armana period) where high numbers of Egyptians and Ethiopians were forced to leave the country. I wouldn't doubt these same exiles going into Canaan and eventually taking over. Perhaps later they were seen as the Hebrew? Again Southern Canaan was Egypt's oldest colony and the Hebrew retain certain customs that were once familiar to Egyptians and Ethiopians (for instance, circumcision).

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I suggest you read this thread about Lachish crania here

As for ancient depictions of Judaeans/Judahites, Tukuler originally posted these:









As Tukuler/Ardo noted interestingly there were ethnic differences between the Judaeans especially southern Judaeans and the people of Israel further north. Even though both groups tend to be lumped together as Israelites.

I can't help to think that such differences may have something to do with the Retenu (Canaanites) portrayed by Egyptians as being black and white types.

[ 22. August 2020, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: Askia_The_Great ]
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
I suggest you read this thread about Lachish crania here

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
As for ancient depictions of Judaeans/Judahites, Tukuler originally posted these:









As Tukuler/Ardo noted interestingly there were ethnic differences between the Judaeans especially southern Judaeans and the people of Israel further north. Even though both groups tend to be lumped together as Israelites.

I can't help to think that such differences may have something to do with the Retenu (Canaanites) portrayed by Egyptians as being black and white types.

---

quote:

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Some say that the Jews were fugitives from the island of Crete, who settled on the nearest coast of Africa about the time when Saturn was driven from his throne by the power of Jupiter. Evidence of this is sought in the name. There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighboring tribe, the Idaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous lengthening of the national name. Others assert that in the reign of Isis the overflowing population of Egypt, led by Hierosolymus and Judas, discharged itself into the neighboring countries. Many, again, say that they were a race of Ethiopian origin, who in the time of king Cepheus were driven by fear and hatred of their neighbors to seek a new dwelling-place. Others describe them as an Assyrian horde who, not having sufficient territory, took possession of part of Egypt, and founded cities of their own in what is called the Hebrew country, lying on the borders of Syria. Others, again, assign a very distinguished origin to the Jews, alleging that they were the Solymi, a nation celebrated in the poems of Homer, who called the city which they founded Hierosolyma after their own name. Most writers, however, agree in stating that once a disease, which horribly disfigured the body, broke out over Egypt; that king Bocchoris, seeking a remedy, consulted the oracle of Hammon, and was bidden to cleanse his realm, and to convey into some foreign land this race detested by the gods.

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quote:

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The discovery of an Egyptian-style tomb at Tel Halif in the Negev Desert suggests an Egyptian colonial presence in southern Israel ca. 3000 B.C. Most burials in the region are in caves or shaft tombs attributed to the Canaanites, but this one, built during the Early Bronze 1B period (3300-3000 B.C.), is typical of contemporary tombs in Egypt, according to excavators Thomas Levy of the University of California, San Diego, and David Alon of the Joe Alon Regional Research Center in Israel. A 30-foot-long passageway descends to the burial chamber, which is about 26 feet long, 16 feet wide, and nine and one-half feet high. Within the dome-shaped chamber is a plastered stone platform on which the skeleton of a woman was found. About 25 years old when she died, she was found in a fetal position facing east, characteristic of Egyptian burials.

That an Egyptian was buried at Tel Halif "gives us evidence of a full-blown Egyptian colony in Israel right after the crystallization of the first Egyptian state," says Levy. "Egyptians were known to have very profound and elaborate belief systems about the afterlife and what was required to get there. One of these requirements was to die and be properly entombed on Egyptian soil. I think it's very likely that this part of southern Israel was considered part of greater Egypt during this period."

Egyptian ceramics, seal impressions, and bread molds found at Tel Halif support an Egyptian occupation. Among these artifacts is a potsherd engraved with the serekh, or sign, of King Narmer, who is believed to have united Upper and Lower Egypt between 3050 and 3000 B.C.

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quote:

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• E-V22 is found primarily in western Ethiopia, northern Egypt and in the southern Levant. In Europe it is therefore associated with the Phoenicians and the Jews, in addition to the propagation of agriculture. The Phoenicians could have disseminated E-V22 to Sicily, Sardinia, southern Spain and the Maghreb, and the Jews to Greece and mainland Italy and Spain. However, the Mediterranean route for the diffusion of agriculture (see map above) went through the exact same regions. It is therefore impossible to know at present which of the two periods (Neolithic or Classical Antiquity) played the stronger role in the spread of V22 around the Mediterranean.

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quote:

---

E-M123 is most commonly found in Ethiopia (5-20%), where it appears to have originated. Its main subclade E-M34 probably emerged in the southern Levant, where it reaches its maximum frequency (10-12% among the Palestinians and the Jews, 8% among the Bedouins, 5% in Lebanon), then expanded in every direction across North Africa (3-5%), the Middle East and South Asia, Anatolia (3-6%) and southern Europe, particularly Italy (1 to 8%). The distribution of E-M123 matches almost exactly the early expansion of farming in the Middle East (see map above) during the Neolithic period, but not so much in Europe, where the only possible association with a Neolithic culture is as a minor haplogroup of the Cardium Pottery culture. E-M123 is conspicuously absent from the part of the Balkans where E-V13 reaches its maximum (Thessaly, Albania, Kosovo) as well as from most Slavic countries, which is strong evidence that M123 wa not associated with the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, like the Linear Pottery culture.

In Europe E-M123 is only observed at frequencies over 2.5% in southern Italy, in the Spanish region Extremadura (4%), and the Balearic islands of Ibiza and Minorca (average 10%). E-M123 could have been brought to the Mediterranean coasts of Europe by the Phoenicians, and to Italy by the Etruscans (from Anatolia). The Romans might have contributed to spreading it around their empire at low frequencies.

---

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml
 

---

Posted by Son of Ra (Member # 20401) on :
 
Awesome and informative thread!

You seem to have gone more in depth in this subject than I have! I also see that you used some material from my thread on Egyptsearch reloaded which I dont mind.
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Awesome and informative thread!

---

Thanks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
You seem to have gone more in depth in this subject than I have!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I also see that you used some material from my thread on Egyptsearch reloaded which I dont mind. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Awesome and informative thread!

---

Thanks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
You seem to have gone more in depth in this subject than I have!

---

I recently started researching heavily in this subject after finding out that the Greeks differentiated between the "black Syrians" and the "white Syrians", that really caught my attention. And also the areas of southern Canaan being dominated by Nile Valley civilizations. But the root of my theories are really based off the bible's definition.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Son of Ra:
I also see that you used some material from my thread on Egyptsearch reloaded which I dont mind.

---

Which material? I don't remember getting material from Reloaded. [/QB]

---

Great! Also im talking about these hebrew images showing David, Joseph,etc.


I also used them for my thread on ES reloaded.
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Actually those images I found on The Bristol Psalter gallery.
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.

---

Go to the Horn and tell them this. See how you get laughed at!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I won't. This is common knowledge and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I won't. This is common knowledge and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia.

---

What? This makes absolutely no sense. By your logic some West Africans Like Senegalese, Malians, Northern Nigerians, etc like to trace their genealogy back to Saudi Arabia since they are Muslim too. But that does not mean they are from Saudi Arabia.

---

quote:

---

Also a horn of African state like Ethiopia is majority Christian and I doubt they want to trace their genes back to a majority Muslim country. Also most Ethiopians I met online seemed to be some of the most pro-black people. Since IIRC Ethiopia is basically the capitol for pan-Africanism. [/qb]

---

For me the spiritual "capitol" of pan-Africanism is Ghana with Nkrumah. And this had nothing to do with history. Pan-Africanism is only a political union similar to the the European Union, the Arab League, etc. It already exist as the African Union.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
Arab League:

(this map still include South Sudan)
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Right or wrong many people in Eastern Africa like to trace their genealogy to the Middle East and Saudi Arabia. So nobody would laugh at me. Far from it. It is also proven by genetics and history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
For me the spiritual "capitol" of pan-Africanism is Ghana with Nkrumah. And this had nothing to do with history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Pan-Africanism is only a political union similar to the the European Union, the Arab League, etc. It already exist as the African Union.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Its true object is to "unify and uplift" people of African descent around the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Again the EU and Arab League are political-economical union, not an ideology/movement like Pan-Africanism. Again they are NOT the same thing.

---

Explain the differences IN YOUR OPINION in practical terms. You said "unify and uplift" but all political unions have that goal.

Imo, people like Nkrumah were pan-Africans and the African Union was (and still is) the main vehicle to express this pan-Africanism. It is indeed similar to the recent European Union and the Arab League. That's why people like Nkrumah were at the forefront of creating the African Union.
 

---

Posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate (Member # 20039) on :
 
- Nkrumah
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Explain the differences IN YOUR OPINION in practical terms. You said "unify and uplift" but all political unions have that goal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Imo, people like Nkrumah were pan-African and the African Union was (and still is) the main vehicle to express this pan-Africanism. It is indeed similar to the recent European Union and the Arab League. That's why people like Nkrumah were at the forefront of creating the African Union. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Explain the differences IN YOUR OPINION in practical terms. You said "unify and uplift" but all political unions have that goal.

---

The Pan-Africanism means "unify and uplift" spiritually

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Again I'm getting back on topic. Whats your opinion on the thread and my stuff on the Canaanites/early Hebrews. Do you agree with my theory or do you think its faulty?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I don't want to be too hard on you but since you asked for it it's all bullshit. Hebrews are great people and have a great history but it's not our history. We are not descendants of Abraham. We have our own history, spiritual traditions and cultures in Africa which have nothing do to with Hebrews, Jewish, Christians (European/Jews) or Muslims(Arabs).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
You still have a lot to learn about your own history,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
not the great history of other people, if you're indeed someone of African descents.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I don't want to be too hard on you but since you asked for it it's all bullshit. Hebrews are great people and have a great history but it's not our history. We are not descendants of Abraham. We have our own history, spiritual traditions and cultures in Africa which have nothing do to with Hebrews, Jewish, Christians (European/Jews) or Muslims(Arabs).

---

I never said we are descendants of Abraham nor did I say it was "our" history. It was a theory and I wanted you to critique. But you should at least note that those two religions you listed have ancestry in Africa. Not only that but Africans played a vital part in the history of those religions; whether the early people of those religions were African or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
It's true that there's some influence of Ancient Egypt on Hebrew people, but on the religious angle Hebrew people made something completely different that what existed in Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece or Romes (before constantine).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Judaism, and it's children, Christianity and Islam, were all about destroying "pagan" religions to replace it with new doctrines almost completely disconnected from what existed previously on fundamental levels.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
It's true that there's some influence of Ancient Egypt on Hebrew people, but on the religious angle Hebrew people made something completely different that what existed in Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece or Romes (before constantine).

---

All I'm saying is that Africans played big parts in the history of the three main religions than you think. Whether the first practitioners of those religions were black or not is anyones guess imi. And both parties offer compelling arguments. As for the Hebrew religious angle being completely different from what was practiced in Egypt; I don't know how true, but there are some good arguments that suggest that the early Jews were Atenist.

---

quote:

---

I don't know about Christianity or Islam, but weren't the people of Jerusalem allied with pagan people AKA the Kushites/Ethiopians?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
My point with the Kushites were is that you said religions like Judaism were enemies of people of pagan belief, yet the Hebrews who were of Jewish faith were allied with a pagan people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
I'm not talking about "who rescued who". You're not understanding my point, the fact is both groups were allies and yet they had different religions.

---

quote:

---

The Hebrews did not see the Kushites as "infidels" but allies. The Hebrews even praise them in their OWN book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
IIRC King Taharqa who was a Kushite/Ethiopian king was praised by the Hebrews for saving Jerusalem. I cant find the exact quotes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What saved the Kingdom of Judah
from the Assyrians was set of
circumstances

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
@ BbH (a valueable ES newbie)

Why say it if you're not sure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
We want "verifiable" facts here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Speculate @ Egyptsearch Ancient Egypt forum.

There's also EgyptSearchReloaded
for "feel good" kind of stuff.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
S'alright bruh
I ain't THAT sensitive
i just not feelin' it now
so fuhgeddaboutit

Havanna Hunny's rollin' me a cigar on her thighs
bye

---

LOL!
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


Going on back on topic. What is your opinion on the Greeks differentiating between "black Syrians" and "white Syrians". Again that is what really caught my attention on this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


Going on back on topic. What is your opinion on the Greeks differentiating between "black Syrians" and "white Syrians". Again that is what really caught my attention on this.

---

Iwhre did you get the idea that the Greeks spoke of "black Syrians" and "white Syrians" ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Found some genetic stuff on the Phoenicians but don't know how accurate(since some studies I read correlate J2 with the Phoenicians) it is but note it is a European based site.

• E-V22 is found primarily in western Ethiopia, northern Egypt and in the southern Levant. In Europe it is therefore associated with the Phoenicians and the Jews, in addition to the propagation of agriculture. The Phoenicians could have disseminated E-V22 to Sicily, Sardinia, southern Spain and the Maghreb, and the Jews to Greece and mainland Italy and Spain. However, the Mediterranean route for the diffusion of agriculture (see map above) went through the exact same regions. It is therefore impossible to know at present which of the two periods (Neolithic or Classical Antiquity) played the stronger role in the spread of V22 around the Mediterranean.

E-M123 is most commonly found in Ethiopia (5-20%), where it appears to have originated. Its main subclade E-M34 probably emerged in the southern Levant, where it reaches its maximum frequency (10-12% among the Palestinians and the Jews, 8% among the Bedouins, 5% in Lebanon), then expanded in every direction across North Africa (3-5%), the Middle East and South Asia, Anatolia (3-6%) and southern Europe, particularly Italy (1 to 8%). The distribution of E-M123 matches almost exactly the early expansion of farming in the Middle East (see map above) during the Neolithic period, but not so much in Europe, where the only possible association with a Neolithic culture is as a minor haplogroup of the Cardium Pottery culture. E-M123 is conspicuously absent from the part of the Balkans where E-V13 reaches its maximum (Thessaly, Albania, Kosovo) as well as from most Slavic countries, which is strong evidence that M123 wa not associated with the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, like the Linear Pottery culture.

In Europe E-M123 is only observed at frequencies over 2.5% in southern Italy, in the Spanish region Extremadura (4%), and the Balearic islands of Ibiza and Minorca (average 10%). E-M123 could have been brought to the Mediterranean coasts of Europe by the Phoenicians, and to Italy by the Etruscans (from Anatolia). The Romans might have contributed to spreading it around their empire at low frequencies.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:


Going on back on topic. What is your opinion on the Greeks differentiating between "black Syrians" and "white Syrians". Again that is what really caught my attention on this.

---

where did you get the idea that the Greeks spoke of "black Syrians" and "white Syrians" ?

---

Read part 2 on page 1...

---

Ok I see you have good Strabo references on that
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
some examples to look at when considering how the Greeks may have spoken about these people










 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

J2 actually correlates to various Levantine groups in general and not just Phoenicians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:


But in regards to E1b1b derived lineages, note how your source states that E-M34 originates in the Levant. This is the common conjecture in academia as noted in this paper: Modern carriers of haplogroup E1b1b1c1 (M34) are the descendants

of the ancient Levantines. However many Eurocentrics wittingly do not take into account that E-M34 arose among an African derived population OR that it may have likely arose in Africa first. The same assumption was made about ancestral E-V22 until its discovery among Egyptians. In fact Cruciani et al. back in a 2004 study has made this argument:



From the Near East, E-M34 chromosomes could also have been introduced into Europe, possibly by Neolithic farmers, but the paucity of E-M34 chromosomes in southeastern Europe (Semino et al. 2004;) weakens this hypothesis. Indeed, as for E-M78δ chromosomes, introduction of E-M34 from Africa directly to southern-central Europe cannot be excluded at the present.

---

quote:

---

The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Yet the Euronuts like to use prove of Ethiopia's lower variance of E-M34 as proof that it originated in Asia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

By the way, Ethiopia's J lineages largely derive from the neolithic period around the exact same time its E-M34 clades appeared. And judging by the appearance of J carrying Asians in next door Yemen and southern Arabia they apparently weren't the light-skinned hairy Middle Easterners many would have you believe. Then again, I remember reading somewhere that the J derived lineages found in Ethiopia actually post-date the E-M34 derived clades found there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Speaking of which, I suggest you read the discussion had in this thread: Y-chromosome variation in Jordan



ABSTRACT

A high-resolution, Y-chromosome analysis using 46 binary markers has been carried out in two Jordan populations, one from the metropolitan area of Amman and the other from the Dead Sea, an area geographically isolated. Comparisons with neighboring populations showed that whereas the sample from Amman did not significantly differ from their Levantine neighbors, the Dead Sea sample clearly behaved as a genetic outlier in the region. Its high R1*-M173 frequency (40%) has until now only been found in northern Cameroonian samples. This contrasts with the comparatively low presence of J representatives (9%), which is the modal clade in Middle Eastern populations, including Amman. The Dead Sea sample also showed a high presence of E3b3a-M34 lineages (31%), which is only comparable to that found in Ethiopians. Although ancient and recent ties with sub-Saharan and eastern Africans cannot be discarded, it seems that isolation, strong drift, and/or founder effects are responsible for the anomalous Y-chromosome pool of this population. These results demonstrate that, at a fine scale, the smooth, continental clines detected for several Y-chromosome markers are often disrupted by genetically divergent populations.

.

..As Bedouin tribes had an important role in the colonization of southeast Jordan, it could be that the haplogroup composition of the Dead Sea reflected genetic affinities to them, but that is not the case. The most striking characteristic of the Dead Sea sample is the high prevalence of R1*-M173 lineages (40%), contrasting with the lack of them and of its derivatives R1b3-N269 in Bedouin from Nebel et al. (2001) and its low frequencies in Amman. It is worth mentioning that until now, similar frequencies for R1*-M173 have only been found in northern Cameroon (Cruciani et al. 2002). The possibility that the Dead Sea and Cameroon are isolated remnants of a past broad human expansion deserves future studies.

Interestingly, when the molecular heterogeneity of the G6PD locus was compared between the Amman and the Dead Sea samples, a lower number of different variants and a higher incidence of the African G6PD-A allele was detected in the latter (Karadsheh, personal communication). Another singularity of the Dead Sea is its high frequency (31%) of E3b3a-M34, a derivative of the E3b3-M123 that is only found in 7% Bedouins (Cruciani et al. 2004). Until now, the highest frequencies for this marker (23.5%) had been found in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al. 2004). On the contrary, most Bedouin chromosomes (63%) belong to the haplogroup J1-M267 (Semino et al. 2004) compared with 9% in the Dead Sea. All these evidences point to the Dead Sea as an isolated region perhaps with past ties to sub-Saharan and eastern Africa.

Strong drift and/or founder effects might be responsible for its anomalous haplogroup frequencies...

---

Whoa... I don't think I've seen this before!!! Yeah I already started reading through the thread you linked. Seen a character named "Evil Euro", I think he's a mod on that Euronut site "Racial Realities". But yeah this study you posted support African migration into the Levant.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Note that most studies on Levantine genetic ancestry tend to focus on the Israel-Palestine area as well as Syria and Lebanon. You don't see as many studies on Jordan and the Sinai at least I don't.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

some examples to look at when considering how the Greeks may have spoken about these people

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

.. the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."

---

Strabo
Geography 16:1:2

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Now lets look at how some of these "Melanosyrians" of southern Levant/Canaan were depicted:


A supply ship. On deck, the captain is haranguing a crew of Canaanites. Painted wood, 12th Dynasty (2000-1785 BCE), Middle Kingdom, Egypt.

---

.
My six year old:
"Daddy, all those boat people are 'gyptians."
So, I beg to differ w/t National Maritime Museum, Haifa, Israel.

Here are Canaanites on a boat with
an Egyptian or two mucking with 'em.

Ludwig Borchardt (1910) Das Grabdenkmal des Königs S'ahu-Re

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

More...


A Phoenician bust in the Egyptian style(from the Louvre)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

You presume that peoples of these areas whom the Greeks described remained the same with no changes in appearance. The fallacy of this argument is no different from that of Egypt, that is modern day Egyptians especially in the Delta look the same as when the Greeks described them and obviously they don't!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ Note that most studies on Levantine genetic ancestry tend to focus on the Israel-Palestine area as well as Syria and Lebanon. You don't see as many studies on Jordan and the Sinai at least I don't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lyinass,:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Lets not derail this thread Lioness. Just ignore.

---

It's too late you should have told Djehuti that
I don't ignore anything everybody knows that
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


BLACK SYRIANS

http://www.edoardodelille.com/home/make_gallery.php?id=34



http://www.rosemarysheel.com/archives/syria_friends

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


As xyyman has demonstrated, so called "Europe" is also an extension of Africa
 

---

Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.

---

Go to the Horn and tell them this. See how you get laughed at!

---

I won't. This is common knowledge (both genetically and historically) and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia (or the middle east in general).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


As xyyman has demonstrated, so called "Europe" is also an extension of Africa

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
.


BLACK SYRIANS

http://www.edoardodelille.com/home/make_gallery.php?id=34



http://www.rosemarysheel.com/archives/syria_friends

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Can we get back on topic please? Everyone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


So should the people of Ugarit be regarded as Africans?
It seems that if they began in 6-6,500 BC then in order to be regarded as Africans they would have had to have been migrants from Africa right before that and not have deeper roots in the region
There is a time period at which people leave Africa and settle in places outside Africa that they adapt to new conditions and become considered non-Africans
So it depends how far outside of Africa you still want to call part of Africa and for what reason
Another point of view is that "Africa" and "non Africans" are useless terms all people in theory come from Africa and are therefore Africans.
There could be a future time when people are differentiated by genetic markers in way disregarding geography.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

@Tukuler

Do you have anything on Herodotus saying the Phoenicians originated near the "Eritrea sea" aka the Red Sea? And thanks for addressing my posts. But your picture is not showing. And from what I've seen that Phoenician bust definitely appears to be Phoenician. Most sites I've seen label it as such. IIRC its from the Louvre Museum, Paris, France.

---

• Ardo EDIT:
  Oh, I guess you mean the boat. Some
  sites don't like direct linking and
  some sites block linking from ES.
  Gimme a sec to upload my copy of
  the plate from Borchardt. OK, did
  it. Slid it into the original post
  up above.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lyinass,:

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
fvck your mother and your whole family

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Lets not derail this thread Lioness. Just ignore.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
]It's too late you should have told Djehuti that
I don't ignore anything everybody knows that

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

---

Nice map you made. No Afrocentric researcher I know of ever made this map.

I am surprised that you would make this map supporting the research of xyyman.

It does reflect his views that Arabians carry East African genes, while Europe generally given the presence of R1, as xyyman has demonstrated, so called "Europe" is also an extension of Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

I've read of old school ideas from the
Phoenician themselves supposedly of
them working up from the Red Sea
after, I think, coming from a
more remote location. Try one
of the Rawlinson works (free
online all volumes of the
Histories and Five Great
Monarchies).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

• Ardo EDIT:
  Oh, I guess you mean the boat. Some
  sites don't like direct linking and
  some sites block linking from ES.
  Gimme a sec to upload my copy of
  the plate from Borchardt. OK, did
  it. Slid it into the original post
  up above.

---

Its showing now. Thanks.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The Levant was an Egyptian province
in pre and proto dynastic times and
oscillated from free to subject status
over the ages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Clearly the bust is Egyptian as
the cartouche makes plain. there
were like 70 some 13th dyn kings.
I spent hours paging through my
hardcopy library looking for
matches of the cartouche and
the style of sculpture before
posting my best guesses.

As you see, I am hyper-critical
and don't necessarily trust what
a museum says about a piece it
"owns". Sometimes, though rarely
so, they are wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

.. the populations of the one and other Cappadoce, Cappadoce Taurique and Cappadoce Pontique, even nowadays, are often called Leucosyri or Syrian white, by opposition apparently to other Syrians known as Melanosyri or Black Syrians, who can be only the Syrians established across Taurus, and, when I say Taurus, I give to this name his greater extension, I prolong the chain until Amanus.[Antioch]."

---

Strabo
Geography 16:1:2

---

.
A precision, the above reference is from
Pliny the Elder
Natural History 6.3.18
EDIT: Oops, you are correct. Pliny was quoting Strabo. I fouled up!

Otherwise I commend you on the Melanosyrii.
Thanks for fleshing out the term with text left
uncited by DJ back in 2010.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Now lets look at how some of these "Melanosyrians" of southern Levant/Canaan were depicted:


A supply ship. On deck, the captain is haranguing a crew of Canaanites. Painted wood, 12th Dynasty (2000-1785 BCE), Middle Kingdom, Egypt.

---

.
My six year old:
"Daddy, all those boat people are 'gyptians."
So, I beg to differ w/t National Maritime Museum, Haifa, Israel.

Here are Canaanites on a boat with
an Egyptian or two mucking with 'em.

Ludwig Borchardt (1910) Das Grabdenkmal des Königs S'ahu-Re

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

More...


A Phoenician bust in the Egyptian style(from the Louvre)

---

.
Phoenician bust or either
* the pharaoh Senwosret II
* the pharaoh Amenemhet II
* one of the minor 13th dyn 'Sekhem' named pharaohs?

DJ or somebody please help me out w/t cartouche.

---

I find it difficult to believe the statue depicts a Phoenician man since the bust has all the features of Egyptian royalty i.e. a wadjet (uraeus) on his brow, and a royal shenu (cartouche) bearing a name inside. As for what the glyphs say, I can only make out the scarab which roughly translates as kpr and the sekhem staff conveying its name as well as a circle above which is either the sun or the symbol for pupil which is djedef. I don't know how to put it together especially as there are other glyphs in the bottom which I can't make out too well. Below the scarab is another circle and I think one glyph below that is an adze which says stp which means 'chosen' or 'choose' and below that looks like water ripples.
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Just pointing out, the Phoenicians were heavily influenced by Nile Valley culture. So wouldn't some Phoenician bust resemble Egyptian? Again just pointing out.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes but it depends on the 'resemblance'. The uraeaus and cartouche are emblems of Egyptian royalty ONLY.

In fact, now that I've done a cursory google search, I see that the statue is not of a Phoenician at all but of the Egyptian king Osorkon I of the 22nd dynasty!!
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Yes but it depends on the 'resemblance'. The uraeaus and cartouche are emblems of Egyptian royalty ONLY.

In fact, now that I've done a cursory google search, I see that the statue is not of a Phoenician at all but of the Egyptian king Osorkon I of the 22nd dynasty!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

C'mon DJ, this is just another
photo spam clown antic by the
Lioness,. TL's posted it earlier
elsewhere.

"The fallacy of this argument is"
there's not one Syrian in the bunch.

---

Of course.

quote:

---

@ All
For Syria, an author's context's necessary
because of its various applications. But in
general, Syria refers to north Levant while
Palestine to south Levant. Syria isn't any
of the Arabias. Levant means the eastern
Mediterranean. It never means Mesopotamia,
the Land between the Rivers (Tigris and
Euphrates).

Be careful of compound terms like Syro
Phoenicia. Remember, Syria derives from
Ssur/Tsur/Tyre, Phoenicia's premier city
(eg coterminous with Ssiydon, K*na'an's
eldest "son").

---

Yes, I am aware of this. In fact according to both the Bible and Josephus blacks lived as far north as the mountains of Lebanon.
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
^^^Do you have a source for that. Would appreciate it.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
[QB] ^ Note that most studies on Levantine genetic ancestry tend to focus on the Israel-Palestine area as well as Syria and Lebanon. You don't see as many studies on Jordan and the Sinai at least I don't.

---

You're right those three countries seem to be the only.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

@Tukuler

Do you have anything on Herodotus saying the Phoenicians originated near the "Eritrea sea" aka the Red Sea? And thanks for addressing my posts. But your picture is not showing. And from what I've seen that Phoenician bust definitely appears to be Phoenician. Most sites I've seen label it as such. IIRC its from the Louvre Museum, Paris, France.

---

You're referring to this passage from Herodotus' Histories:

According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began the quarrel. These people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit, began at once, they say, to adventure on long voyages, freighting their vessels with the wares of Egypt and Assyria ...

A pretty good source on this issue is 'WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND DIODORUS SICULUS?' (look it up on google, since the forum won't allow me to post the link).
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
@DJ

Also Melanosyrians were just to described the dark complexioned Canaanites. I'm sorry to say that I am having some trouble finding a full explanation about them. But again like I said I remember the Greeks labeling the Phoenicians under them.

IMO these would be good examples of "Melanosyrians".

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

^^^Do you have a source for that. Would appreciate it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
This bias only serves to eschew the picture of early Levantine populations, especially since even the Bible describes black peoples to their south in the Negev area, Jordan, and the Sinai, let alone the Arabian wilderness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
You're referring to this passage from Herodotus' Histories:

According to the Persians best informed in history, the Phoenicians began the quarrel. These people, who had formerly dwelt on the shores of the Erythraean Sea, having migrated to the Mediterranean and settled in the parts which they now inhabit, began at once, they say, to adventure on long voyages, freighting their vessels with the wares of Egypt and Assyria ...

A pretty good source on this issue is 'WHO WERE THE PHOENICIANS ACCORDING TO HERODOTUS AND DIODORUS SICULUS?' (look it up on google, since the forum won't allow me to post the link).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@DJ

Also Melanosyrians were just to described the dark complexioned Canaanites. I'm sorry to say that I am having some trouble finding a full explanation about them. But again like I said I remember the Greeks labeling the Phoenicians under them.

IMO these would be good examples of "Melanosyrians".

---

The above mural (in much better photo) was posted in this forum countless times for years now.



The above portrays Syrians in general, but note that most are yellowish brown in color while a couple are very dark.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Let's also not forget about the ethnic diversity in the Levant at that time. Many people tend to focus too much on Biblical texts when the Egyptians themselves give a whole list of names of tribes and ethnicities not mentioned in the Bible.

Can anyone find Egyptian texts of such lists and or descriptions of these peoples??
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

^^^Do you have a source for that. Would appreciate it.

---

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/complete.ii.ii.vi.html

The children of Ham possessed the land from Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire. For of the four sons of Ham, time has not at all hurt the name of Chus; for the Ethiopians, over whom he reigned, are even at this day, both by themselves and by all men in Asia, called Chusites. The memory also of the Mesraites is preserved in their name; for all we who inhabit this country [of Judea] called Egypt Mestre, and the Egyptians Mestreans. Phut also was the founder of Libya, and called the inhabitants Phutites, from himself: there is also a river in the country of Moors which bears that name; whence it is that we may see the greatest part of the Grecian historiographers mention that river and the adjoining country by the apellation of Phut: but the name it has now has been by change given it from one of the sons of Mesraim, who was called Lybyos. We will inform you presently what has been the occasion why it has been called Africa also. Canaan, the fourth son of Ham, inhabited the country now called Judea, and called it from his own name Canaan. The children of these [four] were these: Sabas, who founded the Sabeans; Evilas, who founded the Evileans, who are called Getuli; Sabathes founded the Sabathens, they are now called by the Greeks Astaborans; Sabactas settled the Sabactens; and Ragmus the Ragmeans; and he had two sons, the one of whom, Judadas, settled the Judadeans, a nation of the western Ethiopians, and left them his name; as did Sabas to the Sabeans: but Nimrod, the son of Chus, staid and tyrannized at Babylon, as we have already informed you. Now all the children of Mesraim, being eight in number, possessed the country from Gaza to Egypt, though it retained the name of one only, the Philistim; for the Greeks call part of that country Palestine. As for the rest, Ludieim, and Enemim, and Labim, who alone inhabited in Libya, and called the country from himself, Nedim, and Phethrosim, and Chesloim, and Cephthorim, we know nothing of them besides their names; for the Ethiopic war49 which we shall describe hereafter, was the cause that those cities were overthrown. The sons of Canaan were these: Sidonius, who also built a city of the same name; it is called by the Greeks Sidon

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
@DJ

Also Melanosyrians were just to described the dark complexioned Canaanites. I'm sorry to say that I am having some trouble finding a full explanation about them. But again like I said I remember the Greeks labeling the Phoenicians under them.

IMO these would be good examples of "Melanosyrians".

---

The above mural (in much better photo) was posted in this forum countless times for years now.



The above portrays Syrians in general, but note that most are yellowish brown in color while a couple are very dark.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
Let's also not forget about the ethnic diversity in the Levant at that time. Many people tend to focus too much on Biblical texts when the Egyptians themselves give a whole list of names of tribes and ethnicities not mentioned in the Bible.

Can anyone find Egyptian texts of such lists and or descriptions of these peoples??

---

quote:

---

The Cushite origin of these cities is so plain that those most influenced by the strange monomania which transforms the Phoenicians into Semites now admit that the Cushites were the civilizers of Phoenicia.

---

Pre-Historic Nations
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

A PHOENICIAN LIMESTONE SARCOPHAGUS LID
CIRCA 5TH-4TH CENTURY B.C.


Phoenician - 5th century b.C. Figure of a bearded man


Phoenician art. Cyprus. 4th century BC.
Classical Period. Grave marker
depicting two men reclining at a banquet (top)
and a couple (bottom). Limestone. Golgoi (Cyprus).


Phoenician coffin, c5th BC
White marble anthropoid coffin

Phoenician, 5th century BC
From Sidon, Lebanon

Reflecting the wealth of the city of Sidon

This white marble coffin is typical of a large number found in the nineteenth century at Sidon, one of the wealthy Canaanite (Phoenician) ports of the first millennium BC. Canaanite territory at this time was restricted to the coast and included the cities of Tyre, Sidon, Byblos, Aradus and Marathus. These centres produced objects of superb quality to meet the demands of the great powers of the Near East from Egypt to Mesopotamia and Iran. They also extracted and processed a dye from the murex sea shell which was used to create the most valuable and sought-after purple fabrics. It is from the Greek word for this colour, phoinix, that these Canaanites have acquired the name Phoenician. Their close trading links with Egypt influenced their burial practices and the male head on this coffin wears a headdress in Egyptian style. The quality of the stone work suggest the owner must have been wealthy.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/me/w/white_marble_anthropoid_coffin.aspx

_____________________________________



Phoenician civilization - 6th century b.C. - Figure of a female head
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Aren't some of those images from Cyprus? Which the Phoenicians colonized?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Wouldn't be surprised if the Levant showed ethic diversity like the Nile Valley. The Greeks/Romans already touched base on the two different Syrian branches. Though I know that's not enough in terms of what your asking.

---

quote:

---

[QB] Also whats you guys opinion on this?

[i]The Cushite origin of these cities is so plain that those most influenced by the strange monomania which transforms the Phoenicians into Semites now admit that the Cushites were the civilizers of Phoenicia.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
[qb]
Wouldn't be surprised if the Levant showed ethic diversity like the Nile Valley. The Greeks/Romans already touched base on the two different Syrian branches. Though I know that's not enough in terms of what your asking.

---

Yeah, I was asking about specific names of ethnic or tribal groups. As I understand it, the Egyptians have made various lists throughout their history.

quote:

---

Also whats you guys opinion on this?

[i]The Cushite origin of these cities is so plain that those most influenced by the strange monomania which transforms the Phoenicians into Semites now admit that the Cushites were the civilizers of Phoenicia.

---

Pre-Historic Nations

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Aren't some of those images from Cyprus? Which the Phoenicians colonized?

---

this is from Lebanon, Sidon

.

PHOENICIAN LARGE TERRACOTTA STANDING YOUTH,
His right hand is raised in an attitude of prayer or greeting; the left once held an implement. Mediterranean marine encrustations.
Levant Coast, 6th Century BC
H. 42 1/2 in. (108 cm.)
Ex Marwan Shehab collection, Beirut, acquired from Asfar & Sarkis, Beirut, in 1964.


mummy of Tabnit, a sixth century B.C. king of Sidon, Lebanon
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

... either
* the pharaoh Senwosret II
* the pharaoh Amenemhet II
* one of the minor 13th dyn 'Sekhem' named pharaohs?

DJ or somebody please help me out w/t cartouche.

---

I find it difficult to believe the statue depicts a Phoenician man since the bust has all the features of Egyptian royalty i.e. a wadjet (uraeus) on his brow, and a royal shenu (cartouche) bearing a name inside. As for what the glyphs say, I can only make out the scarab which roughly translates as kpr and the sekhem staff conveying its name as well as a circle above which is either the sun or the symbol for pupil which is djedef. I don't know how to put it together especially as there are other glyphs in the bottom which I can't make out too well. Below the scarab is another circle and I think one glyph below that is an adze which says stp which means 'chosen' or 'choose' and below that looks like water ripples.

---

• Osorkon I, pharaoh. Sandstone, H: 60 cm, end 19th BCE.
  
  This bust of Osorkon (around 924-895 BCE, 21st dynasty)
  was consecrated by King Elibaal, his vassal, and stood in
  the temple of the Lady of Biblos, Goddess of the town.
  The dedication is in archaic Phoenician. From Biblos.
  
  Louvre, Departement des Antiquites Orientales, Paris, France

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Why even post this?
the nose is nearly entirely broken off and this sculpture is near useless to determine ethnicity
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The point is it isn't Canaanite
nor is this art a photograph
and so reps differ as ARtU
pointed out.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians," as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon.
--STRABO GEOGRAPHY
p195 Book XVI, Chapter 1

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Aren't some of those images from Cyprus? Which the Phoenicians colonized?

---

It's funny you should mention Cyprus, because archaeology Cyprus has been tied to the Levant since its settlement in Neolithic times. Interestingly enough there are Greek descriptions of the original Cyprian natives being black also!! And I believe the Biblical scholars describe Cyprus as being either Caphtor or Casluh descendants of Mizraim (Egypt) per the Table of Nations.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


this is unpainted therefore no skin color tone is indicated
 

---

Posted by Brada-Anansi (Member # 16371) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


this is unpainted therefore no skin color tone is indicated

---

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
so at random you can match it to your race of choice, whatever you feel most comfortable with
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ I guess you missed my post where I found out that the bust was a 22nd dynasty portrait of Osorkon II. LOL As for the Melanosyrians, I will look them up. Speaking of which...

I remember reading years ago from an old source that speculates Tiye's ebony appearance could be due to Syrian ancestry instead of Nubian ancestry!! I wish I wrote down that source, but I remember Dana and someone else (I believe YOU) saying the same thing! Do you know what source(s) speak more of this issue i.e. black looking Syrians/Levantines?? [/qb]

---

• Or "White Syrians." Strabo says that in his time
  both the Cappadocian peoples, those situate above the
  Taurus and those on the Euxine, were called Leucosyri,
  or White Syrians, as there were some Syrians who were
  black, and who dwelt to the east of the Amanus.

Maybe by Syria they just meant Aramean speakers.
It's known this NW Semitic language moved from
NE Syria to NW Iraq and downriver to Babylon.

While Amanus is on the map below Antioch isn't
but Tel Tayinat is the closest to it.






Note Antioch Syria at south of Amanaus on this one

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians," as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon.
--STRABO GEOGRAPHY
p195 Book XVI, Chapter 1

---

It is evident that altogether the physical types of the Assyrians and
Babylonians were very nearly alike, though the Babylonians had a
somewhat sparer form, longer and more flowing hair, less strong and
stern features, and a darker complexion. The last characteristic is to
be attributed partly to the infusion of Ethiopian elements in the popu-
lation, and partly to their more tropical location, Babylonia being four
degrees farther south than Assyria. The Cha'ab Arabs, who now
occupy the southern parts of the ancient Babylonia, are almost black ;
while the " black Syrians," mentioned by Strabo, were probably the
Babylonians.

--POPULAR SCIENCE 1910
A RECORD OF THE- HUMAN RACE FROM THE
EARLIEST HISTORICAL PERIOD TO THE PRESENT TIME;
Complete in Twenty-Five Volumes

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

You
were the first one afaik on ES
to mention MelanoSyrians (check
the archive) some years ago as
I said in an earlier post.

---

quote:

---

The thing about Syrian Tiye I had
read so long ago I can't recall
where. Some would say it was pure
Eurocentrism ala Reisner with his
white Lower Nubians.

---

Well in the book that I read years ago, I recall that it was a woman who authored passage describing Tiye as 'Syrian'.
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
I don't mean it was Reisner
just his kind of thought
process to "de-nigrify"
by suggesting supposed
non-blacks.
 

---

Posted by Barachit (Member # 21812) on :
 
This is an excellent topic BlessedbyHorus!

Your thread confirmed my concerns on afrocentric thoughts: afrocentricity is more a Kamit/Egypt centric paradigm that focus essentially on Egypt and forget about other civilisation built by blacks. It's incredible to see that the same greeko-romans authors who describe the ancient egyptians as blacks, portrayed the ancient levantine as black too. But yet afrocentrics totally disregarded this same source they use to confront euro-lie in regard to ancient levantine. And the worst part is when they insult people who want to demonstarte the black/african origin of Hebrew,Canaan Phoenicians etc...by calling them mental slave.

The truth will be revealed anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikqbP81gFes&list=UUZ917Y_geHOtJTYoFgQAcIw
 

---

Posted by Barachit (Member # 21812) on :
 


A CORE-FORMED BLACK GLASS HEAD PENDANT, PHOENICIAN OR CARTHAGINIAN, 6TH/5TH CENTURY B.C

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/4807650016/in/gallery-archaeoinaction-72157628927107217/
 

---

Posted by Barachit (Member # 21812) on :
 
Gold and bronze figurine, from Cadiz, Spain, Phoenician civilization



8th Century B.C., UK, London, British Museum, Phoenician art



8th Century B.C., UK, London, British Museum, Phoenician art


 

---

Posted by Child Of The KING (Member # 9422) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:


A CORE-FORMED BLACK GLASS HEAD PENDANT, PHOENICIAN OR CARTHAGINIAN, 6TH/5TH CENTURY B.C

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/4807650016/in/gallery-archaeoinaction-72157628927107217/

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
Aren't some of those images from Cyprus? Which the Phoenicians colonized?

---

this is from Lebanon, Sidon

.

PHOENICIAN LARGE TERRACOTTA STANDING YOUTH,
His right hand is raised in an attitude of prayer or greeting; the left once held an implement. Mediterranean marine encrustations.
Levant Coast, 6th Century BC
H. 42 1/2 in. (108 cm.)
Ex Marwan Shehab collection, Beirut, acquired from Asfar & Sarkis, Beirut, in 1964.


mummy of Tabnit, a sixth century B.C. king of Sidon, Lebanon

---

Because I know this image is definitely from Cyprus.

 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Just noting that Cappadocia was Anatolia/Turkey.

So there was more "white Syrians" there than "black."

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians," as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon.
--STRABO GEOGRAPHY
p195 Book XVI, Chapter 1

---

It is evident that altogether the physical types of the Assyrians and
Babylonians were very nearly alike, though the Babylonians had a
somewhat sparer form, longer and more flowing hair, less strong and
stern features, and a darker complexion. The last characteristic is to
be attributed partly to the infusion of Ethiopian elements in the popu-
lation, and partly to their more tropical location, Babylonia being four
degrees farther south than Assyria. The Cha'ab Arabs, who now
occupy the southern parts of the ancient Babylonia, are almost black ;
while the " black Syrians," mentioned by Strabo, were probably the
Babylonians.

--POPULAR SCIENCE 1910
A RECORD OF THE- HUMAN RACE FROM THE
EARLIEST HISTORICAL PERIOD TO THE PRESENT TIME;
Complete in Twenty-Five Volumes

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Child Of The KING:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:


A CORE-FORMED BLACK GLASS HEAD PENDANT, PHOENICIAN OR CARTHAGINIAN, 6TH/5TH CENTURY B.C

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/4807650016/in/gallery-archaeoinaction-72157628927107217/

---

Barachit,

That black glass head of an socalled "Black" is an made up mockery of Black people.

Why post it?? It seems Dr. Winter is right about europeans and there forgerys trying to peddle there minstrel's of Blacks in the past.

It disgusts me that people pretend to be supporters of righting wrongs when all they are doing is playing into the hands of Evil.

Barachit a real Black man would not post a caricature ?? I ask not to question you, but to understand why an African would post something that makes an full mockery of Black people. Clowns? Look at the thing before you post it brother, unless you are an agent.

---

"Agent" loool....Anyway check this out "O son of the Kin"g, it's not a mockery it's p hoenician art style. You had analyse this glass by using your modern paradigm ...Typical anachronism!! Don't get confused by the colour of the glass it's irrelevant i guess you would have not complain if i had posted these ones:








 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Aren't some of those images from Cyprus? Which the Phoenicians colonized?

---

It's funny you should mention Cyprus, because archaeology Cyprus has been tied to the Levant since its settlement in Neolithic times. Interestingly enough there are Greek descriptions of the original Cyprian natives being black also!! And I believe the Biblical scholars describe Cyprus as being either Caphtor or Casluh descendants of Mizraim (Egypt) per the Table of Nations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Child Of The KING:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:


A CORE-FORMED BLACK GLASS HEAD PENDANT, PHOENICIAN OR CARTHAGINIAN, 6TH/5TH CENTURY B.C

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/4807650016/in/gallery-archaeoinaction-72157628927107217/

---

Barachit,

That black glass head of an socalled "Black" is an made up mockery of Black people.

Why post it?? It seems Dr. Winter is right about europeans and there forgerys trying to peddle there minstrel's of Blacks in the past.

It disgusts me that people pretend to be supporters of righting wrongs when all they are doing is playing into the hands of Evil.

Barachit a real Black man would not post a caricature ?? I ask not to question you, but to understand why an African would post something that makes an full mockery of Black people. Clowns? Look at the thing before you post it brother, unless you are an agent.

---

"Agent" loool....Anyway check this out "O son of the Kin"g, it's not a mockery it's p hoenician art style. You had analyse this glass by using your modern paradigm ...Typical anachronism!! Don't get confused by the colour of the glass it's irrelevant i guess you would have not complain if i had posted these ones:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:
This is an excellent topic BlessedbyHorus!


Your thread confirmed my concerns on afrocentric thoughts: afrocentricity is more a Kamit/Egypt centric paradigm that focus essentially on Egypt and forget about other civilisation built by blacks. It's incredible to see that the same greeko-romans authors who describe the ancient egyptians as blacks, portrayed the ancient levantine as black too. But yet afrocentrics totally disregarded this same source they use to confront euro-lie in regard to ancient levantine. And the worst part is when they insult people who want to demonstarte the black/african origin of Hebrew,Canaan Phoenicians etc...by calling them mental slave.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:
The truth will be revealed anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikqbP81gFes&list=UUZ917Y_geHOtJTYoFgQAcIw

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:



A CORE-FORMED BLACK GLASS HEAD PENDANT, PHOENICIAN OR CARTHAGINIAN, 6TH/5TH CENTURY B.C

https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/4807650016/in/gallery-archaeoinaction-72157628927107217/

---

Holy sh*t!!! I've never seen this image for the Phoenicians/Carthaginians before!

You're the man.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:
Gold and bronze figurine, from Cadiz, Spain, Phoenician civilization

-

8th Century B.C., UK, London, British Museum, Phoenician art

-

8th Century B.C., UK, London, British Museum, Phoenician art

-

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Aren't some of those images from Cyprus? Which the Phoenicians colonized?

---

It's funny you should mention Cyprus, because archaeology Cyprus has been tied to the Levant since its settlement in Neolithic times. Interestingly enough there are Greek descriptions of the original Cyprian natives being black also!! And I believe the Biblical scholars describe Cyprus as being either Caphtor or Casluh descendants of Mizraim (Egypt) per the Table of Nations.

---

Whoa...Never heard of this. You know where I can find the source?

---

The only source I know of that explicitly described Cyprian natives as black is Aeschylus' play 'Suppliant Maidens' based on the Argive legend of the Danaides (daughters of Danaus ruler of Libya and brother of Aegyptus) who settled in the city of Argos and became ancestors to the rulers of Mycenae.

A local of Argos upon encountering the Dainades makes a remark about their strange (black) appearance:
O stranger maids, I may not trust this word,
That ye have share in this our Argive race.
No likeness of our country do ye bear,
But semblance as of Libyan womankind.
Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow;
Yea, and the Cyprian stamp, in female forms,
Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same.
And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids
Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie,
And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing
Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard;
And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids
Called (Gorgon) Amazons: to these, if bows ye bare,
I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet,
That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.

If you add these claims by the Classical Greek authors along with archaeological facts about not only Cyprus but the Aegean area and it becomes clear.

"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have
been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today,
short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow
complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean
was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types,
some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed,
almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..."
-- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)

Minoan frescoes



By the way, the Minoan frescoes of Crete show a lot more blacks than many realize. The internet does not show these pictures, but the only place I know outside of Crete is a modern replica made in exact detail in the 'Poseidon Adventure' ride in Disney World!

There are just too many past threads in this forum on the topic of Africans settling the Aegean and Greece proper, so I suggest you look it up in the archives or in Google.

Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread. Danaus the father of the Danaids was the king and founder of the country of Libya west of Egypt, while his brother Aegyptus founded Egypt itself. Both were sons of the goddess Libya (Africa) by Poseidon and there was also a third son named as Belus in some versions or Agenor in another who founded the nations of Arabia and Phoenicia/Canaan! Note how this mirrors the Biblical Table of Nations which also says that Canaan, Egypt, and Libya were brothers.

What's ironic is that the earliest Greek references to 'Aethiopia' wasn't Africa at all but Canaan!! Thus the Argive legend of Perseus rescuing Andromeda Princess of Joppa, Aethiopia. And yes this was the same Joppa from the original 'Clash of the Titans' movie and not that remade movie where they changed it to Argos itself. LOL

And yes, Aethiopian Joppa and black Princess Andromeda were also discussed in past threads. Tukuler can probably fill you in on more.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Asiatic tribute bearers - Tomb of Sobekhotep 18th, Dyn





____________________________________________________ the guy at right has the darkest skin__^^^

Does this mean he's of African phenotype or of different stock than the other figures? You can't tell from this
Are they all of African phenotype? You can't tell from this


Minoan frescoes



^^^ Below is the same item without the restoration >>






^^^in other words the head here is completely imagined by a modern artist


Here is the actual fragment




On the one hand you could of accuse my of reducing the evidence of blacks here. Yet all I am showing is the actual fragments without the artists filling in what they imagine to be there.
The realiity is that is that there are these small black bits of the back of the head and piece of leg which are assumed to be Africans and they have titled the whole thing "The Captain of the Blacks" referring to the figure at front who is brown as if the brown man is in charge of the black Africans

Just look at what is actually there, without a modern artist trying to fill it in


 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Apparently the lioness didn't notice that the entire section of the fresco is a reconstruction including the lighter reddish hued man in front.



Also the reconstructed black man's head was BASED on other sections of the fresco that showed similar type black people! I wish I had a smart phone all those years ago to take pictures of the Minoan fresco duplicates in the waiting halls of Disney's 'Poseidon Adventure', maybe someone can do so today.
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
I agree. Lioness implies that the damaged copy is the
only available ancient copy that survives today,
which people could have used to reconstructed the
exceptionally dark skinned individual(s). This would
seem at odds with their (i.e. the Minoan) tendency
to convert these scenes into themes. E.g., frescoes
displaying the bull jumping theme were excavated
even in Tell el Daba and the Levant.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Correction. I keep saying 'Poseidon Adventure' which I think is the name of a movie about ship sinking. The actual name of the Disney ride/show is 'Poseidon's Fury'

But getting back to the topic...

Here are a couple more depictions of black Levantine folk.





What's funny is that even today there are black Bedouin in both the Sinai and Gaza area who are NOT of recent African Islamic descent but have noted well before Islamic times.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Lioness implies that the damaged copy is the
only available ancient copy that survives today,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

which people could have used to reconstructed the
exceptionally dark skinned individual(s). This would
seem at odds with their (i.e. the Minoan) tendency
to convert these scenes into themes. E.g., frescoes
displaying the bull jumping theme were excavated
even in Tell el Daba and the Levant.

---

I don't know what you mean why would black skinned people in a fresco be " at odds with their (i.e. the Minoan) tendency
to convert these scenes into themes"
I don't understand what you are saying.

I haven't said anything about this fresco.

All I'm saying is look at the fresco rather than what some artist drew on it.




^^^ The URL of this image is knowthyselfloveyourself.com,
the picture is copied from Mike's webiste (as are other Minoan frescos in this thread, scholarly source, lol)

Here is how it would look without the modern artist's add ons



^^^ I prefer dealing with this, it's the artifact without an artist speculation on the rest. It's more factual to look at it as it is rather than how somebody imagines it
Of these small fragments there appears to a piece of leg and head that look jet black in skin color, yes

The scene perhaps shows some Africans in Minoa
Here is some writing on it

The Mycenaeans C. 1650-1100 BC
Nicolas Grguric 2005




I never said there were no Africans in Minoa, nor do I deny a certain amount of African ancestry in Mediterranean people

the question in this thread
Should the Levant be an extension of Africa?

That is the topic. I don't think these frescos resolve that question
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Didn't realize my post was that hard to decipher.
Never mind me, though. Carry on..
 

---

Posted by Truthcentric (Member # 3735) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
What's ironic is that the earliest Greek references to 'Aethiopia' wasn't Africa at all but Canaan!! Thus the Argive legend of Perseus rescuing Andromeda Princess of Joppa, Aethiopia. And yes this was the same Joppa from the original 'Clash of the Titans' movie and not that remade movie where they changed it to Argos itself. LOL

And yes, Aethiopian Joppa and black Princess Andromeda were also discussed in past threads. Tukuler can probably fill you in on more.

---

From what I recall, Joppa was actually where Andromeda was reported to have been chained in sacrifice to Cetus, not so much where she actually lived. Let's not forget that the Levant was under Kushite jurisdiction at one point in history (not to mention the period of Egyptian rule before that):


Kushite Empire, 700 BC

As for the Minoan fresco with the jet-dark characters, it rather reminds me of later Greek portrayals of Egyptians like Busiris:

 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
^I'm not aware of paintings that specifically depict
what you're describing so I can't speak on that,
but like I said, I can easily imagine that they
exist given the fact that Minoans had certain
themes in their art which they repeated over and
over. I'd would be easy to reconstruct the damaged
parts of a bull jumping figure in a damaged fresco
without being too far off the mark because there
are many examples of bull jumping figures on Minoan
frescos, some of which have been found in ancient
Egypt and the Levant.

Case in point, compare the nape of the necks and
the elongated back of the heads of figures in
both scenes below; probably identical (only
difference I can detect is the long strands of
hair on the figure in the image to the right).
The latter figure (and others like it) could
easily serve as a example to get an idea of what
the men behind the Minoan "captain" looked like:



I fail to see why this basic idea would be so hard
to comprehend.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Truthcentric:

From what I recall, Joppa was actually where Andromeda was reported to have been chained in sacrifice to Cetus, not so much where she actually lived. Let's not forget that the Levant was under Kushite jurisdiction at one point in history (not to mention the period of Egyptian rule before that):


Kushite Empire, 700 BC

As for the Minoan fresco with the jet-dark characters, it rather reminds me of later Greek portrayals of Egyptians like Busiris:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Lioness implies that the damaged copy is the
only available ancient copy that survives today,

---

I don't know what you are talking about we are dealing with a fragment of a fresco
There are no other copies of this scene

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:

which people could have used to reconstructed the
exceptionally dark skinned individual(s). This would
seem at odds with their (i.e. the Minoan) tendency
to convert these scenes into themes. E.g., frescoes
displaying the bull jumping theme were excavated
even in Tell el Daba and the Levant.

---

I don't know what you mean why would black skinned people in a fresco be " at odds with their (i.e. the Minoan) tendency
to convert these scenes into themes"
I don't understand what you are saying.

I haven't said anything about this fresco.

All I'm saying is look at the fresco rather than what some artist drew on it.




^^^ The URL of this image is knowthyselfloveyourself.com,
the picture is copied from Mike's webiste (as are other Minoan frescos in this thread, scholarly source, lol)

Here is how it would look without the modern artist's add ons



^^^ I prefer dealing with this, it's the artifact without an artist speculation on the rest. It's more factual to look at it as it is rather than how somebody imagines it
Of these small fragments there appears to a piece of leg and head that look jet black in skin color, yes

The scene perhaps shows some Africans in Minoa
Here is some writing on it

The Mycenaeans C. 1650-1100 BC
Nicolas Grguric 2005




I never said there were no Africans in Minoa, nor do I deny a certain amount of African ancestry in Mediterranean people

the question in this thread
Should the Levant be an extension of Africa?

That is the topic. I don't think these frescos resolve that question

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
I'm not aware of paintings that specifically depict
what you're describing so I can't speak on that,
but like I said, I can easily imagine that they
exist given the fact that Minoans had certain
themes in their art which they repeated over and
over. I'd would be easy to reconstruct the damaged
parts of a bull jumping figure in a damaged fresco
without being too far off the mark because there
are many examples of bull jumping figures on Minoan
frescos, some of which have been found in ancient
Egypt and the Levant.

Case in point, compare the nape of the necks and
the elongated back of the heads of figures in
both scenes below; probably identical (only
difference I can detect is the long strands of
hair on the figure in the image to the right).
The latter figure (and others like it) could
easily serve as a example to get an idea of what
the men behind the Minoan "captain" looked like:

 

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

here is the only known depiction of black Canaanites paying tribute.



^ Note that there are white types among them as well.

---

^^^ This is a modern illustation done on computer copied from a wall painting. It is from

biblepicturegallery.com

" One of 6000+ images at Christian Computer Art
Art.com"

http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/pictures/egyptianr/Cana

Not exactly scholarly sources, but anyway...

The Filipino guy commenting on it has figured out who is "black" and who is "white"
He believes all people depicted on it are black except some"whites" in the right hand quarter.



^^^ He says this is a black person because anybody that dark is black.
That's how he defines "black",
soley by skin tone and he has stated it many times.
That means all people in the world can be divided into "black" and "white" according to a specific cut off point that divides each of these ranges





^^^ these are the two Minoan fisherman
frescos found at the city of Akrotiri on the Greek island of Santorini

So would you agree that they are depictions of black people?

I'm not asking you if they are "black skinned" or are "black Mediterraneans" or "Black Minoans"

>>> I'm asking you in your opinion are the depictions of blacks, are they black people?

yes or no, thanks

And if they are black that means they're African too ?

I call this paper bag anthropology
 

---

Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
@Lioness cut it out with the obfuscatory bs

Quote
"is he African?"

For all intents and purposes, who cares? You're not
going to answer this question by eyeballing, anyway.
You're never going to find out the biological affinity
of a long dead and potentially generalized individual
with no intended likeness to a specific dark skinned
individual in the Mediterranean.

Just obfuscatory bs. Your original claim was that the
reconstruction was entirely willy-nilly. What are you
basing that on?
 

---

Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Aye... Sorry I took so log to reply to this post DJ.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

The only source I know of that explicitly described Cyprian natives as black is Aeschylus' play 'Suppliant Maidens' based on the Argive legend of the Danaides (daughters of Danaus ruler of Libya and brother of Aegyptus) who settled in the city of Argos and became ancestors to the rulers of Mycenae.

A local of Argos upon encountering the Dainades makes a remark about their strange (black) appearance:

O stranger maids, I may not trust this word,

That ye have share in this our Argive race.

No likeness of our country do ye bear,

But semblance as of Libyan womankind.

Even such a stock by Nilus' banks might grow;

Yea, and the Cyprian stamp, in female forms,

Shows, to the life, what males impressed the same.

And, furthermore, of roving Indian maids

Whose camping-grounds by Aethiopia lie,

And camels burdened even as mules, and bearing

Riders, as horses bear, mine ears have heard;

And tales of flesh-devouring mateless maids

Called (Gorgon) Amazons: to these, if bows ye bare,

I most had deemed you like. Speak further yet,

That of your Argive birth the truth I learn.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

If you add these claims by the Classical Greek authors along with archaeological facts about not only Cyprus but the Aegean area and it becomes clear.

"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have

been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today,

short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow

complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean

was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types,

some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed,

almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC..."

-- The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)

Minoan frescoes





By the way, the Minoan frescoes of Crete show a lot more blacks than many realize. The internet does not show these pictures, but the only place I know outside of Crete is a modern replica made in exact detail in the 'Poseidon Adventure' ride in Disney World!

There are just too many past threads in this forum on the topic of Africans settling the Aegean and Greece proper, so I suggest you look it up in the archives or in Google.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

Anyway, getting back to the topic of this thread. Danaus the father of the Danaids was the king and founder of the country of Libya west of Egypt, while his brother Aegyptus founded Egypt itself. Both were sons of the goddess Libya (Africa) by Poseidon and there was also a third son named as Belus in some versions or Agenor in another who founded the nations of Arabia and Phoenicia/Canaan! Note how this mirrors the Biblical Table of Nations which also says that Canaan, Egypt, and Libya were brothers.

What's ironic is that the earliest Greek references to 'Aethiopia' wasn't Africa at all but Canaan!! Thus the Argive legend of Perseus rescuing Andromeda Princess of Joppa, Aethiopia. And yes this was the same Joppa from the original 'Clash of the Titans' movie and not that remade movie where they changed it to Argos itself. LOL

And yes, Aethiopian Joppa and black Princess Andromeda were also discussed in past threads. Tukuler can probably fill you in on more.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Yeah I already seen the past threads of you guys discussing about the Minoans, way before I even joined this site. Though I must note DJ that recent DNA studies showed the Minoans to be mostly European.

http://www.livescience.com/31983-minoans-were-genetically-european.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

First of all the Minoans themselves distinguished two types-- .

---

Similarly differnt types depicted in the Egyptian art



Here is Tutankhamun, shown as a sphinx, trampling Egypt's traditional foes, a Levantive, perhaps Syrian and a Nubian, painted on a chariot in his tomb
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
?
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
For all intended purposes Mike's website is good for pictures, the information he conveys is a whole other issue that I won't even touch.

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

First of all the Minoans themselves distinguished two types-- .

---

Similarly differnt types depicted in the Egyptian art


Here is Tutankhamun, shown as a sphinx, trampling Egypt's traditional foes, a Levantive, perhaps Syrian and a Nubian, painted on a chariot in his tomb

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Yeah I already seen the past threads of you guys discussing about the Minoans, way before I even joined this site. Though I must note DJ that recent DNA studies showed the Minoans to be mostly European.

http://www.livescience.com/31983-minoans-were-genetically-european.html

---

First of all, that study the article you cited is based on was discussed before here and here. I suggest you look those threads up to see what our views our.

Second of all, I will say that it was never our contention that Minoans were all or predominantly African, only that there were Africans among them. Judging by not only the earliest material culture there but also some of the skeletal remains.

Lastly, I find the claims of that article or study to be suspect since it says their genetics are that of Neolithic Europeans even though we know such genetics to be heterogenous (including from Africa), but then the article says Minoan culture comes from Anatolia (something I and others have always maintained). Anatolia has traditionally been separate from Europe even by the Greeks themselves to be called 'Asia Minor'. But then the agenda of the article becomes clear when it cites the Bellwood hypothesis that associates the Anatolian agriculturalists with proto-Indo-Europeans even though the actual linguistic evidence is at best shaky especially when the languages spoken by early Anatolian folk was NOT Indo-European and neither were their offshoots the Pelasgians, and Eteo-Cretans (Minoans). Hell, even the Linear A script of the Minoans themselves remains undeciphered even though it shares many of the same features of the Linear B script that defines Mycenaean Greek language!

So while nobody is saying that the entire Minoan ethnicity is African but rather Anatolian derived, I find their attempts to twist this Anatolian identity into 'European' to be very questionable at best and down right erroneous at worst!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:


As xyyman has demonstrated, so called "Europe" is also an extension of Africa

---

Technically he is correct, when you speak in terms of expansion. And that map is nice thou.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Noted.

So what you are saying is that the Minoan people were heavily influenced by Africans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

---

I never said "heavily" but obviously there was influence. There is still debate as to how much influence from Africa Minoan culture had, but as has been noted in this forum you see certain things here and there.
 

---

Posted by Barachit (Member # 21812) on :
 
Child of the king, no hard feelings bro i understand your concerns now!

Blessedbyhorus, i dont know... the pictures appear for me. Go to pinterest.com or flick.com and type phoenician to get the pictures.



^^Statue of a seated god Hazor Late Canaanite period, 15th-13th century



^^Statue of the storm god poised to strike Hazor Late Canaanite period, 15th-13th century BCE



^^Weather and War God, Baal Bronze; Syria or Anatolia, 1400 - 1200 B. C.



^^Hadad - God of the wind,the rain,the storms phoenician daity



^^Fragment of a Phoenician - style ivory of a bearded head found in an Assyrian palace Iraq Museum
 

---

Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
The lies of Eurocentrism is coming to end. I haven’t seen anything from DNATribes for Oct2014. Strange?! Continue to rgue over “pictures”.
Posted ON ESR – for more details

Software implementing the model described here, called TreeMix, is available at http://treemix.googlecode.com.


Through genetics - They have known for a long time that Africans (AMH) entered Europe NOT through the Levant but through Northern Africa and Southern Europe. They have been lying and/or just burying their heads in the sand like ostrich’s. Lying to themselves and to the world, the liars they are. Trying to convince themselves they are not a sub-set of recent North Africans who are in turn a sub-set of South Saharans. Using reverse psychology, trying to convince us North Africana are admixture of Europeans migrants and South Saharan Africans. They have been trying with all their might, media power and lies they are distantly related to Africans.

Pickerell corroborates what Lazaridis just authored in his Sep2014 study about 3 ancestry for modern Europeans. The lies are coming to end …maybe we can finally move on.

Here is what the infamous – Pickrell et al says.


-----


Inference of Population Splits and Mixtures from Genome-Wide Allele Frequency Data -
Joseph K. Pickrell1*, Jonathan K. Pritchard1,2*
-DEC 2012


Two inferred edges were unexpected. First, perhaps the most surprising inference is that Cambodians trace about 16% of their ancestry to a population equally related to both Europeans and other East Asians (while the remaining 84% of their ancestry is related to other southeast Asians). This is partially consistent with clustering analyses, which indicate shared ancestry between Cambodians and central Asian populations [7]. To confirm that the Cambodians are admixed, we turned to less parameterized models. The predicted admixture event implies that allele frequencies in Cambodia are more similar to those in African populations than would be expected based on their East Asian ancestry. To test this, we used three-population tests [37]. We tested the trees [African, [Cambodian,Dai]] for evidence of admixture in the Cambodians (Methods). When using any African population, there is strong evidence of admixture (when using Yoruba, Z~{7:0 [p~1|10{12]; when using Mandenka, Z~{7:3 [p~1|10{12]; when using San, Z~{4:8 [p~8|10{7]). We conclude that the Cambodian population is the result of an admixture event involving a southeast Asian population related to the Dai and a Eurasian population only distantly related to those present in these data.
Finally, we infer an admixture edge from the Middle East (a population related to the Mozabite, a Berber population from northern Africa) to southern European populations (w~22%). This migration edge is the one edge that is not consistent across independent runs of TreeMix on these data (Figure S8). In particular, an alternative graph (albeit with lower likelihood) places the Mozabite as an admixture between southern Europe and Africa (*****RATHER ******than the Middle East and Africa), and does NOT include an edge from the middle East to southern Europe.

WE THUS HESITATE TO INTERPRET THIS RESULT, except to note that the relationship between northern African, the Middle East, and southern Europe involves complex patterns of gene flow that merit further investigation [43,57].
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Indeed. The Levant, South Arabia and Southern Europe is an extension of Africa. And these geneticst have the evidence amd they know it. Africans have been expanding and migrating to those regions in waves.


This is not rocket science.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Lazaridis, Pickerell, DNATribes, xyyman, Sergi Evans, Smith and many others, we all conclude that Modern Europeans are a sub-set of North Africans ie That originate amongst the Luyha region of Africa only about 10kya.

Dumb fcks…continue arguing what an Ethiopian look like and whether they are admixed or not. SMH
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Lazaridis just corroborates what Shriver concluded close to five years ago. Light skin has an African origin. This is not rocket science. SMH

--------
QUOTE:
A profound transformation must have taken place in West Eurasia after the Neolithic Revolution."
The researchers also analyzed genes with known phenotypic association and show that some of the hunter-gatherers likely had blue eyes eyes and darker skin, whereas the early farmers had lighter skin and brownish eyes. Both the hunter-gatherers as well as the early farmers displayed high copy numbers of amylase genes in their genomes, suggesting that both populations had already adapted to a starch-rich diet.


Using the large dataset of present-day and ancient human data, the researchers were able to calculate the proportion of the ancestral components in present-day Europeans. "Nearly all Europeans have ancestry from all three ancestral groups," says Iosif Lazaridis from Harvard Medical School. "Differences between them are due to the relative proportions of ancestry. Northern Europeans have more hunter-gatherer ancestry—up to about fifty percent in Lithuanians—and Southern Europeans have more farmer ancestry."


We find a major surprise: Europeans are a mixture of three ancient populations, not two,” says David Reich from Harvard Medical School, one of the lead investigators of the new study. “We had previously found an ancient genetic link of present-day Europeans and Native Americans,” adds Nick Patterson from the Broad Institute in Boston. “To our surprise this component was not present in the ancient hunter-gatherer from Luxembourg, nor was it present in the first European farmers”.

---------
BTW- The same Luyha/Maasai region carry alleles for blue eyes. Source cited on ESR.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
So Lioness. Do you now understand what Mediterranean “bridge” means when Lazaridis mention it in his latest paper?
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
Anyone understands what the following bolded section means? Anyone? The significance?
It seems like ANE gene material was NOT present in WHG nor EEF. Anyone?


=-------

Quote:
We find a major surprise: Europeans are a mixture of three ancient populations, not two,” says David Reich from Harvard Medical School, one of the lead investigators of the new study. “We had previously found an ancient genetic link of present-day Europeans and Native Americans,” adds Nick Patterson from the Broad Institute in Boston. “To our surprise this component was not present in the ancient hunter-gatherer from Luxembourg, nor was it present in the first European farmers”

---

This is the stuff that is really fascinating and should be discussed.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
This is what is so perplexing about Europeans; they have an innate behavior to lie. I just don’t get it. It is so much easier to man-up and move on. Why pretend to be something you are not?

What am I getting at? This is what Pickrell said, quote: (((WE THUS HESITATE TO INTERPRET THIS RESULT,…)))). WTF does that mean!?

It means they are going to ignore what they just observed and prefer to lie and continue the myth. That is what it means.
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
End of rant from the crazy uncle…..lol! I am anxious to see what DNATribes have up their sleeves for OCT2014. This is the first time they are two weeks late.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
End of rant from the crazy uncle…..lol! I am anxious to see what DNATribes have up their sleeves for OCT2014. This is the first time they are two weeks late.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
But this is fascinating. Doing a search on the famed Dr Iosif Lazaridis on LinkedIn I came across a piece of information that blew my mind. May be someone can help me out?

I was shocked to know Lazaridis is NOT a geneticist. He is neither a anthropologist, archeologist nor Historian. His undergrad is from Greece. MS and PhD here in the US. His degrees are all in …..Computer Science!!!!!!! Yet he is the LEAD author on such a ground breaking piece of work. Haak, Henn etc and the like “co-authored”. The man is a “numbers cruncher”. He has no formal training in genetics or any of the related disciplines.!!! In fact he was out of work until he got this job about 14mths ago. Something does not add up. Anyone? Did he sleep his way to the top?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:

Lazaridis, Pickerell, DNATribes, xyyman, Sergi Evans, Smith and many others, we all conclude that Modern Europeans are a sub-set of North Africans ie That originate amongst the Luyha region of Africa only about 10kya.

---

Clyde this what xyyman is saying
modern Europeans
were Luhya Africans a bantu group in Kenya only before about 10 thousand years ago

So let's say 11, 12, 14 thousand years ago the ancestors of modern European looked like this

Luhya man


ten thousand years later they look like this

white Luhya man, post refrigeration


^In other words the above man is a lot more African

than this Papua New Guinea man who
has been out of Africa for perhaps 70 thousand years, evolving, mutating accordingly



"Modern Europeans are a sub-set of North Africans that originate amongst the Luhya region of Africa only about 10kya"
---xyyman

So within 10 thousand years the Luhya people migrated from Kenya to North Africa. Then about 4,500 years ago they went into Europe, founded European civilization, and are known today as modern Europeans. Let's not be fooled by appearances. Modern Europeans, blond hair, blue eyes , whatever type are basically Africans, only their phenotype has changed by the environmental conditions, genetically their DNA is recent African

Clyde you need to update your origin of the modern European xyyman has expanded our understanding
 

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Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
 
My point is. A lot of money went into this work plus a lot was/is at stake. Why have a "nobody" pen his name as lead author? The big guns were involved. Close to hundred authors. Henn, Haak, Wells, Tishkoff etc. notable absent was Paabo and his nemesis Babujani.

Plus the man is "not" a geneticist but a computer scientist/ technician . I don't get their strategy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
But this is fascinating. Doing a search on the famed Dr Iosif Lazaridis on LinkedIn I came across a piece of information that blew my mind. May be someone can help me out?

I was shocked to know Lazaridis is NOT a geneticist. He is neither a anthropologist, archeologist nor Historian. His undergrad is from Greece. MS and PhD here in the US. His degrees are all in …..Computer Science!!!!!!! Yet he is the LEAD author on such a ground breaking piece of work. Haak, Henn etc and the like “co-authored”. The man is a “numbers cruncher”. He has no formal training in genetics or any of the related disciplines.!!! In fact he was out of work until he got this job about 14mths ago. Something does not add up. Anyone? Did he sleep his way to the top?

---

Probably not. If the research is sound it will be published if it agrees with the status quo.

.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
@ Lioness. Selective Picture spamming does not change the facts. He! He!

You do know it was Henn who stated that the Luyha are ancestral to Amazigh?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
But weren't you so in love
with Lazaridis when you did
view him thru the lens of
DNAtribes? You love his EEF
and Basal Europeans even tho
they were, and remain, purely
hypothetical "populations," a
computer scientist's statistic
invention.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
I don't want to be too hard on you but since you asked for it it's all bullshit. Hebrews are great people and have a great history but it's not our history. We are not descendants of Abraham. We have our own history, spiritual traditions and cultures in Africa which have nothing do to with Hebrews, Jewish, Christians (European/Jews) or Muslims(Arabs).

---

I never said we are descendants of Abraham nor did I say it was "our" history. It was a theory and I wanted you to critique. But you should at least note that those two religions you listed have ancestry in Africa. Not only that but Africans played a vital part in the history of those religions; whether the early people of those religions were African or not.

---

It's true that there's some influence of Ancient Egypt on Hebrew people, but on the religious angle Hebrew people made something completely different than what existed in Ancient Egypt or even Ancient Greece or Romes (before constantine). Judaism, and it's children, Christianity and Islam, were all about destroying "pagan" religions to replace it with new doctrines almost completely disconnected from what existed previously on fundamental levels.

Based on current genetic and archaeological studies Ancient Egyptians seems to be mostly black Africans but still more research needs to be done. Nevertheless, black Africans from ancient times (common origin in Eastern Africa, Green Sahara period) had no doubt a lot of influence on Ancient Egypt culturally, religiously and in its peopling.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
Yeah, some racist people on this site want to use the modern Eurasian admixtures in Horners and NorthEastern Africa (like the Semitic/ethio-semitic admixtures and Arab Muslim admixtures) to claim Ancient Egypt.

But in reality the Eurasian admixtures in Horners and Northeastern Africa is ***RECENT*** admixtures. After the foundation of the Ancient Egyptian empire. And much after the Naqada, Badarian, Tasian and Green Saharan cultures which form the basis of Ancient Egyptian people and culture.

---

Go to the Horn and tell them this. See how you get laughed at!

---

I won't. This is common knowledge (both genetically and historically) and since many people in Eastern Africa are Muslim converts they like to trace their genealogy to Saudi Arabia (or the middle east in general).

---

Of course you won't because it's common knowledge that what you type is outrageous rubbish, all picked out of your behind.


What you appearently still don't get is the people from the Mid East are a subset of these East Africans. Not the other way around. It was shown to you on many levels and in many ways. (Archeological, genetically, linguistically, historically, anthropologically).

In your mind Mid Easterns popped-out from nowhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
.


BLACK SYRIANS

http://www.edoardodelille.com/home/make_gallery.php?id=34



http://www.rosemarysheel.com/archives/syria_friends

---

You do know that Syria has had a lot of slave input from (east) Europe, don't you?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Snakepit1:
Look at his username, he's obviously connected to ancient Egyptian religion/belief systems. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:

Noted.

So what you are saying is that the Minoan people were heavily influenced by Africans. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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I never said "heavily" but obviously there was influence. There is still debate as to how much influence from Africa Minoan culture had, but as has been noted in this forum you see certain things here and there.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Barachit:

Blessedbyhorus, i dont know... the pictures appear for me. Go to pinterest.com or flick.com and type phoenician to get the pictures.



^^Statue of a seated god Hazor Late Canaanite period, 15th-13th century



^^Statue of the storm god poised to strike Hazor Late Canaanite period, 15th-13th century BCE



^^Weather and War God, Baal Bronze; Syria or Anatolia, 1400 - 1200 B. C.



^^Hadad - God of the wind,the rain,the storms phoenician daity



^^Fragment of a Phoenician - style ivory of a bearded head found in an Assyrian palace Iraq Museum

---

Already seen the photos. I believe you fixed them. Anyways nice pics.
 

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Posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
I was surprised when I first saw this figurine.

A Semitic slave. Ancient Egyptian figurine. Hecht Museum









 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Nice picture^^^
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Bump...
 

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Posted by LEDAMA (Member # 21677) on :
 
SONS OF HAM;
1)CUSH/KUSH=NILOTES(NILO-SAHARAN)
2)MIZRAIMS=PYGMIES & WEST AFRICANS(Niger
congo A)
3)PHUT=KHOISAN
4)CANAAN=BANTUS(Niger congo B)
Actually these are also the four main languages
spoken in Africa.Considering the fact Afro-asiatic
e.g Chadic,Amazigh,Cushitic are NILOTIC
CONTINUITY.a proven fact.
SONS OF KUSH(NILOTES)
1)SEBA=Maa-speakers(sabaeans) e.g
maasai,samburu,lotuko group
2)HAVILLAH=Tigray and Tigrinya group
3)SABTAH=Nuer,dinka,shilluk,anuak,luo peoples
group
4)RAAMAH=Kalenjin,datooga & Omotic group.
5)SABTECHA=Nuba,Turkana,karamajong,Toposa
group.
6)NIMROD=Dravidians.
SONS OF RAAMAH(proto kalenjin rmT)
1)SHEBA=Oromo
2)DEDAN=Somal
 

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Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
LEDAMA, is that your interpretation, or someone else's?

Cush/Kush may have been Black Sea emigrants that moved to the Nile after the 7.7ka deluge (Noah/Atrahasis/Atlantis/Avalon).

Why do you call Pygmies Mizraims? They don't call themselves that. Egypt is Mizr in Arabic.

KhoiSan = Phut? How do you know? They don't call themselves that.

Canaan = Bantus? Not Yoruba/Ijebu/Jebusites/Gebt??

El Molo tribe live at Lake Turkana, they fish by spearing while wading underwater.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 


Reconstruction of Phoenician from Achziv, Israel

http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/publications.asp





Head of a Syrian
KhM 3896a
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4906





Head of a Beduin from Syria
KhM 3896b
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4907






Head of a Beduin from Syria
KhM 3896c
TILE; NEW KINGDOM

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/record.aspx?id=4908

quote:

---

The Phoenician civilization flourished along the eastern coastlines of the Mediterranean Sea (the present-day coasts of Syria, Lebanon, and northern Israel) from approximately 2000 BC to 500 BC


"The Phoenicians likely referred to themselves as Canaanites."


The ancient Greeks were the originators of the term “Phoenicia,” which derives from an ancient Greek word (phoinikes) for the color purple.

---

quote:

---

TEL AVIV, ISRAEL—Fragments of pottery basins used by Egyptians to make beer 5,000 years ago have been unearthed at a construction site in central Tel Aviv. Traces of barley have been found on similar vessels from other sites. Tests should reveal if the containers had been carried from Egypt, or if they had been made locally in the Egyptian style. “This is also the northernmost evidence we have of an Egyptian presence in the Early Bronze Age I,” Diego Barkan, director of the excavation for the Israel Antiquities Authority, told Live Science. “Until now, we were only aware of an Egyptian presence in the northern Negev and southern coastal plain, whereby the northernmost point of Egyptian occupation occurred in Azor.” The excavation also uncovered 17 pits used for agricultural storage during the early Bronze Age, and a 6,000-year-old copper dagger and flint. To read about Egyptian animal mummies, see "Messengers to the Gods."

---

http://archaeology.org/news/3128-150330-beer-basin-fragment
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
Found an interesting gem. Though it is a late depiction...


Hannibal (atop the Elephant) and Scipio who is pointing at him.


Weird that Hannibal is the only dark skinned one.
"The scene, which is based on Livy's account of the second Punic War in his History of Rome (XXX, 33, 4-16), depicts the last battle pitting Scipio and the Roman army against the Carthaginians. Elephants in the Carthaginian army's front lines are charging the Romans, toppling men and horses. On the left, an elephant startled by the blare of a trumpet and a horn turns on its own camp. In the foreground, Scipio, wearing a starry blue mantle, leads his men, urging them to push back the enemy with swords and javelins.The border along the sides and lower edge features a broad garland of flowers, fruits, small animals, and frolicking children. The upper part consists of an architrave, probably to comply with the dimensions requested by the first patron to commission a tapestry on this theme, the Maréchal de Saint-André, whose arms grace the upper corners."
http://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/tapestry-history-scipio-battle-zama
 

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Posted by BlessedbyHorus (Member # 22000) on :
 
@Ish Gebor

I know you are getting more and more interested in this topic, but I think you'll find this interesting.

quote:

---

Population means from Jordanian Bedouins (Henke and Disi, 1980) provided low probabilities
(under 0.500) for either group but high typicalities (over 0.900). The most complete
skull from a Phoenician sample from Israel (Smith et al., 1990) provided a ‘Black male’
result with high probability but low typicality. Probabilities ranging between 0.600 and
1.000 in the category ‘Black’, with typicalities mainly under 0.400 were present in Punic
skulls from Carthage (Bertholon and Chantre, 1913), Neolithic and proto-historic skulls
from Sahara and sub-Saharan Africa (data collected by Chamla, 1968), and in modern
African skulls measured by Barras de Aragón (1911).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BlessedbyHorus:
^You welcome. It seems you are getting more well versed in the subject than me.

---

I am not sure what you mean by that, but thanks anyway.
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
The painted depiction seems off. It is very doubtful Hannibal would
have been atop an elephant during battle. Elephants were a front line
weapon released early. Hannibal would have lost command and control
had he been charging in front at the opening of a battle.
At Zama the ROmans defeated the opening elephant attack by creating
open lanes for the animals to charge down, after which they were
slaughtered towards the rear. Hannibal would have been dead or captured
within the first 20-30 minutes of Zama. He would not have been on
place to control his 2 lines of infantry, plus cavalry, and hold
fast the last line, the veterans of Italy for the final showdown.

It is a good painting nevertheless, raising interesting questions
about Hannibal and his multi-ethnic army, including his African
troops, and is an artist's depiction- not a military history.
It is no worse than many other battle paintings.
 

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Posted by -Just Call Me Jari- (Member # 14451) on :
 
BBH here is an image of a dark skinned Bedouin that seems to have vanished from the internet, thankfully I saved it to my archives thank god...



Ill see if I can find Museum info/dating on it..

(Edit)
Lower part of kneeling Beduin
KhM 3897b
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/advanced_result.aspx?location=01%2F0047%2F3&pag=9
 

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Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 
Limited Scope of Biblical Ethnography



"No reference is made to the Indians, Negroes, Mongolians, Malayans, Chinese, Japanese, etc.
The author names only the peoples within his sphere of knowledge."- Paul Heinisch, History of the Old Testament
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
End of rant from the crazy uncle…..lol! I am anxious to see what DNATribes have up their sleeves for OCT2014. This is the first time they are two weeks late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-:
BBH here is an image of a dark skinned Bedouin that seems to have vanished from the internet, thankfully I saved it to my archives thank god...



Ill see if I can find Museum info/dating on it..

(Edit)
Lower part of kneeling Beduin
KhM 3897b
TILE; RAMESSES III/USERMAATRE-MERIAMUN

http://www.globalegyptianmuseum.org/advanced_result.aspx?location=01%2F0047%2F3&pag=9

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Elite Diasporan:
... I consider much on the front page dated/debunked ...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
What's wrong with a bump up for no reason at all?
Why micromanage?
If no one's interested the thread will hibernate.

Meanwhile threads locked for security, before Rey
got full power, and threads now in the renamed
forum that differs from its old use need 'liberation'.

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