This is topic Beja of Sudan: an intermediate position between Africans and non-Africans 2014 in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


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The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size

Nuha Elhassan , Eyoab Iyasu Gebremeskel , Mohamed Ali Elnour, Dan Isabirye, John Okello, Ayman Hussien, Dominic Kwiatksowski, Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff, Muntaser E. Ibrahim
Published: May 20, 2014


"Both MDS plots discriminated between Africans and non-Africans in their first coordinate, although in the IBS plot where the variance measure is more pronounced the drift effect and low Ne is prominent. In the FST based MDS the 2nd coordinate differentiates between Sudanese and the rest of Africa (except San), and between Asians and Europeans. Interestingly Beja population from Sudan maintains an intermediate position between Africans and non-Africans in both plots."





http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0097674


_________________________________________


Arabs, Nubians and Beja of the Sudan, and Ethiopians show high frequencies of the allele T/G-13915, which is the major LP variant among the nomadic Arabs in Arabian Peninsula [23]. This supports the historical link and bidirectional migration of nomadic populations between Arabia and East Africa. And the significant frequencies of this allele of the nomadic Arabs among Nubians of the Sudan may be due to the gene flow form Afro-Asiatic into this Nilo-Saharan group. Nubians reside at the entering port of the Sudan along the Nile at the border with Egypt, where they were influenced by Arabs as a direct result of the penetration of large numbers of Arabs from Arabia and Egypt into the Sudan over a long period of time following the arrival of Islam around 651 AD [29].

--Genetic diversity of lactase persistence in East African populations


Hassan et al. 2016

https://bmcresnotes.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13104-015-1833-1
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
These are transitional populations.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
This could be so called Basal Eurasian
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Basal Eurasian doesn't exist. It's a hypothetical population. If it were possible to remove the Eurasian ancestry from north Sudan, the people would revert back to a Dinka-like population.
—Egyptsearch
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Basal Eurasian doesn't exist. It's a hypothetical population. If it were possible to remove the Eurasian ancestry from north Sudan, the people would revert back to a Dinka-like population.
—Egyptsearch

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
This could be so called Basal Eurasian

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quote:

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The ‘Basal Eurasians’ are a lineage hypothesized

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Basal Eurasian doesn't exist. It's a hypothetical population. If it were possible to remove the Eurasian ancestry from north Sudan, the people would revert back to a Dinka-like population.
—Egyptsearch

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Amazing, I was at work thinking about posting this. I see you went before me.


Anyway, in the post above I have cited Lazaridis.

And indeed a Dinka like population is the best proximity. I have posted on this.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB] The Beja's intermediate position in MDS is the result of masking out their African ancestry. When you account for this masked component (captured by DNA Tribes' Amarna ancestry), the discrepancy disappears.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB] The Beja's intermediate position in MDS is the result of masking out their African ancestry. When you account for this masked component (captured by DNA Tribes' Amarna ancestry), the discrepancy disappears.

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The Beja's intermediate position is not the result of masking out their African ancestry.

DNA Tribes' general analysis method as shown in their articles progressively masks out components to determine what the separate components of the whole are.
How much milk is in a given cup of coffee? A way to find that out is to use a method to separate the coffee from the milk. That does not mean the separation itself is a final analysis.
An "intermediate" position is not the title of something where something was masked out.
If you masked out something it would not be intermediate the final result would be one or the other, not intermediate

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
Basal Eurasian doesn't exist. It's a hypothetical population. If it were possible to remove the Eurasian ancestry from north Sudan, the people would revert back to a Dinka-like population.
—Egyptsearch

---

Amazing, I was at work thinking about posting this. I see you went before me.


Anyway, in the post above I have cited Lazaridis.

And indeed the Dinka is the best proximity. I have posted on this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


Haplo J arose at Northeast Africa, Sinai.

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quote:

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Mapping Post-Glacial expansions: The Peopling of Southwest Asia
2017

Daniel E. Platt1, Marc Haber2, 3, Magda Bou Dagher-Kharrat4, Bouchra Douaihy2, Georges Khazen2, Maziar Ashrafian Bonab5, Angélique Salloum2, Francis Mouzaya2, Donata Luiselli6, Chris Tyler-Smith3, Colin Renfrew7, Elizabeth Matisoo-Smith8[…] & Pierre A. Zalloua2, 9- Show fewer authors
Scientific Reports 7, Article number: 40338 (2017)

BATWING TMRCA (Supplementary information) estimates for J*, J1, J1e, J2, and E1b1b are shown in Table 1. These results indicate slightly greater time depth information of J, J1, and J2 in Turkey and populations from the Caucasus, in agreement with their higher diversity in this area

Today, the J1 haplogroup dominates the Arabian Peninsula region (Supplementary Figure S2), though its greatest diversity (Supplementary Figure S3), marking its origin, is seen in the north. Meanwhile, the J2 diversity contour maps suggests centers from the Levant and Tarsus mountains. The strong coastal vs. inland distributions of these two haplogroups23,37 belies the proximity of J1 and J2 origins

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
[QB] The Beja's intermediate position in MDS is the result of masking out their African ancestry. When you account for this masked component (captured by DNA Tribes' Amarna ancestry), the discrepancy disappears.

---

The Beja's intermediate position is not the result of masking out their African ancestry.
DNA Tribes' general analysis method as shown in their articles progressively masks out components to determine what the separate components of the whole are.
How much milk is in a given cup of coffee? A way to find that out is to use a method to separate the coffee from the milk. That does not mean the separation itself is a final analysis.
An "intermediate" position is not the title of something where something was masked out.
If you masked out something it would not be intermediate the final result would be one or the other, not intermediate

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Basal Eurasian doesn't exist. It's a hypothetical population. If it were possible to remove the Eurasian ancestry from north Sudan, the people would revert back to a Dinka-like population.
—Egyptsearch

---

Amazing, I was at work thinking about posting this. I see you went before me.


Anyway, in the post above I have cited Lazaridis.

And indeed a Dinka like population is the best proximity. I have posted on this.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm not sure about that I will have to check with a man by the name of Douglass

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
I'm not sure about that I will have to check with a man by the name of Douglass

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Anyway, sorry to derail your thread. I got a little carried away. Just wanted to point out that Basal Eurasian is an invention of Hamiticists. The powers that be masked out the African component.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Swenet:
When the Eurasian component is filtered, you get a Dinka-like population. Some, like Wally say the Yoruba and other African ethnic groups were also represented in ancient times. But the powers that be aren't ready for that.

Anyway, don't mind me. Carry on..

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quote:

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Dataset preparation for population genetic analyses
Genotypes were called in GD13a at sites which overlapped those in the Human Origins dataset (Lazaridis et al.17, filtered as described in Jones et al.24) using GATK Pileup44.

Table S3. f3(X, GD13a; Dinka) where X represents a modern or ancient individual/population. Ancient individuals/populations are shown in bold. EBA: Early Bronze Age, MN: Middle Neolithic. Populations/individuals with the largest f3 values are shown.

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quote:

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The mitochondria of GD13a (91.74X) was assigned to haplogroup X, most likely to the subhaplogroup X2. Haplogroup X2 is present in modern populations from Europe, the Near East, Western and Central Asia, North and East Africa, Siberia, and North America (7). Haplogroup X2 has been associated with an early expansion from the Near East (7, 8) and has been found in early Neolithic samples from Anatolia (9), Hungary (10) and Germany (11).

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quote:

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S7. Outgroup f3 statistics show that GD13a shares the most genetic drift with Caucasus Hunter-gatherers

We used outgroup f3-statistics to estimate the amount of shared drift between GD13a and contemporary populations. This was performed on the dataset described in section S6 using the qp3Pop program in the ADMIXTOOLS package (13). We computed f3(X, GD13a; Dinka), where X represents a modern population and Dinka, an African population equally related to Eurasians, acts as an outgroup (Fig. S7). We also repeated this analysis where X represents ancient individuals/populations. Among the ancient populations, Caucasus hunter-gatherers (Kotias and Satsurblia) have the closest affinity to GD13a (Table S3), followed by other ancient individuals from Steppe populations from the Bronze age and modern populations from the Caucasus.

[…]

The phenotypic attributes of GD13a are similar to the neighbouring Anatolian early farmers and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers. Based on diagnostic SNPs, she had dark, black hair and brown eyes (see Supplementary). She lacked the derived variant (rs16891982) of the SLC45A2 gene associated with light skin pigmentation but likely had at least one copy of the derived SLC24A5 allele (rs1426654) associated with the same trait. The derived SLC24A5 variant has been found in both Neolithic farmer and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer groups5,15,24 suggesting that it was already at appreciable frequency before these populations diverged. Finally, she did not have the most common European variant of the LCT gene (rs4988235) associated with the ability to digest raw milk, consistent with the later emergence of this adaptation5,15,21.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Basal Eurasian doesn't exist. It's a hypothetical population. If it were possible to remove the Eurasian ancestry from north Sudan, the people would revert back to a Dinka-like population.
—Egyptsearch

---

Amazing, I was at work thinking about posting this. I see you went before me.


Anyway, in the post above I have cited Lazaridis.

And indeed a Dinka like population is the best proximity. I have posted on this.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ So you think skin tone is relevant to Microsatellite FST scaling ???

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Is that all you got out of that post? It's a bit selective to be honest.


Tell me, who shows the closest proximity?




Dataset preparation for population genetic analyses
Genotypes were called in GD13a at sites which overlapped those in the Human Origins dataset (Lazaridis et al.17, filtered as described in Jones et al.24) using GATK Pileup44.

quote:

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whilst PCA also revealed some affinity with modern Central South Asian populations such as Balochi, Makrani and Brahui (Fig. 1A and Fig. S4)

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quote:

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The mitochondria of GD13a (91.74X) was assigned to haplogroup X, […] and East Africa.

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
My hypothesis is that you really are a spambot and that your posts are meaningless, Ish Gebor. This is why you refuse to actually construct any kind of argument; it's beyond your programming.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
My hypothesis is that you really are a spambot and that your posts are meaningless, Ish Gebor. This is why you refuse to actually construct any kind of argument; it's beyond your programming.

---

quote:

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The mitochondria of GD13a (91.74X) was assigned to haplogroup X, […] and East Africa.

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quote:

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We computed f3(X, GD13a; Dinka), where X represents a modern population and Dinka, an African population equally related to Eurasians, acts as an outgroup (Fig. S7).

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quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
Copy sentence with keyword: 'Africa'
Copy sentence with keyword: 'Dinka'

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quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
Copy sentence with keyword: 'Africa'
Copy sentence with keyword: 'Dinka'

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Ish Gebor capra is what I and others have noticed for years you put up quotes but don't clearly state why you are doing it and the exact point you are trying to make.
Either you dont understand what you are putting up or are afraid to take responsibility for forming an opinion.

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quote:

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Populations for which the ancient Caucasus genomes are best ancestral approximations include those of the Southern Caucasus and interestingly, South and Central Asia. Western Europe tends to be a mix of early farmers and western/eastern hunter-gatherers while Middle Eastern genomes are described as a mix of early farmers and Africans.

[…]

Caucasus hunter-gatherer contribution to subsequent populations. We next explored the extent to which Bichon and CHG contributed to contemporary populations using outgroup f3(African; modern, ancient) statistics, which measure the shared genetic history between an ancient genome and a modern population since they diverged from an African outgroup.

Discussion


Given their geographic origin, it seems likely that CHG and EF are the descendants of early colonists from Africa who stopped south of the Caucasus, in an area stretching south to the Levant and possibly east towards Central and South Asia. WHG, on the other hand, are likely the descendants of a wave that expanded further into Europe. The separation of these populations is one that stretches back before the Holocene, as indicated by local continuity through the Late Palaeolithic/Mesolithic boundary and deep coalescence estimates, which date to around the LGM and earlier.

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—Jones, E. R., G. Gonzalez-Fortes, S. Connell, V. Siska, A. Eriksson, R. Martiniano, R. L. McLaughlin, et al. 2015.

“Upper Palaeolithic genomes reveal deep roots of modern Eurasians.” Nature Communications 6 (1): 8912. doi:10.1038/ncomms9912. http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/ncomms9912.


Close thread/
 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
Yes, Ish Gebor, modern humans come from Africa. That is the dominant paradigm and all of these genetics papers are based on it.

Are you really posting a hundred pictures of the clear sky in order to prove that it is blue?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
Yes, Ish Gebor, modern humans come from Africa. That is the dominant paradigm and all of these genetics papers are based on it.

Are you really posting a hundred pictures of the clear sky in order to prove that it is blue?

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quote:

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Given their geographic origin, it seems likely that CHG and EF are the descendants of early colonists from Africa who stopped south of the Caucasus, in an area stretching south to the Levant and possibly east towards Central and South Asia.

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So what else do we have?



 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ Now he's on the rhetorical question thing again, billionth time
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
^^^ Now he's on the rhetorical question thing again, billionth time

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You are way too deep in the capra asshole. You nasty. Is capra a new or old poster? lol
 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
keyword:'Beja' - category:'Afroasiatic' - imagetype:map

To pass the Turing Test, just present an argument or opinion about the topic.

For instance, "I think Beja's West Eurasian-like ancestry comes from early Nile valley pastoralists who mixed with Wavy Line Pottery/ barbed bone harpoon folks from Sudan, and not from Arabs or whatever."

PS I'm following lioness on this, she was here first.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
keyword:'Beja' - category:'Afroasiatic' - imagetype:map

To pass the Turing Test, just present an argument or opinion about the topic.

For instance, "I think Beja's West Eurasian-like ancestry comes from early Nile valley pastoralists who mixed with Wavy Line Pottery/ barbed bone harpoon folks from Sudan, and not from Arabs or whatever."

---

quote:

---

The phenotypic attributes of GD13a are similar to the neighbouring Anatolian early farmers and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers. Based on diagnostic SNPs, she had dark, black hair and brown eyes (see Supplementary). She lacked the derived variant (rs16891982) of the SLC45A2 gene associated with light skin pigmentation but likely had at least one copy of the derived SLC24A5 allele (rs1426654) associated with the same trait. The derived SLC24A5 variant has been found in both Neolithic farmer and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherer groups5,15,24 suggesting that it was already at appreciable frequency before these populations diverged. Finally, she did not have the most common European variant of the LCT gene (rs4988235) associated with the ability to digest raw milk, consistent with the later emergence of this adaptation5,15,21.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
Turing Test failed. retry y/n?

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LOL Funny coming for some individual how doesn't present a damn thing at all. All I see is virtual vomit.

Okay, lets try it again.


Test, retry:

Afroasiatic origin from where, into … and time position?



 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
I expressed an opinion above. You quote it and transform the statement into a vague question to keep the pseudo-conversation going.... wait...

You're a chatbot x spambot hybrid!
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
I expressed an opinion above. You quote it and transform the statement into a vague question to keep the pseudo-conversation going.... wait...

You're a chatbot x spambot hybrid!

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I am waiting for you to answer, amazing blaze.

Let's try it again,

Afroasiatic origin from where, into … and time position?


Don't be afraid, it only hurts for a short period. You will survive.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Basal Eurasian is a hypothetical kind of ancestry from an unknown population that no longer exists but it may have existed

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quote:

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Given their geographic origin, it seems likely that CHG and EF are the descendants of early colonists from Africa who stopped south of the Caucasus, in an area stretching south to the Levant and possibly east towards Central and South Asia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
OK, I will make a deal with you: I'll answer the question, but then you have to answer the question too. Not by cutting and pasting something, but in your own words. A real opinion. Doesn't have to be elegantly written or deeply researched, just something.

Deal?

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I always answer question, ignoramus.


PS:

What is wrong with:
"Not by cutting and pasting something, but in your own words"

The comment trend is, when you express your opinion, the question is then prompted to show evidence. I have a busy schedule and I am not always on this website. So I mostly keep it short. Post the sources and let people deal with it. I have no time to go back and forth for days. I invest my time in developing shut etc…


"A real opinion."

I certainly have options, but I am afraid you will not like them. lol
Not that I consider it my problem anyway.


Now, answer my question.


Afroasiatic origin from where, into … and time position?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


Now, answer my question.


Afroasiatic origin from where, into … and time position? [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
My hypothesis is that you really are a spambot and that your posts are meaningless, Ish Gebor. This is why you refuse to actually construct any kind of argument; it's beyond your programming.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


Now, answer my question.


Afroasiatic origin from where, into … and time position?

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Your question isn't clear because of the incredibly bad grammar. Please write a grammatically proper sentence so capra can answer your question. It's not too much to prove you're not a bot algorithm.
You don't even have a subject in the sentence. [/QB]

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quote:

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Arabs among Nubians of the Sudan may be due to the gene flow form Afro-Asiatic into this Nilo-Saharan group

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quote:

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Available data on the distribution of the persistent G−13915 allele in African and Arab populations12,13 suggests that the lactase‐persistence trait was most likely brought from Africa to the Arabian Peninsula.23,24 Enrichment of only one persistent allele covering most of the Arabian Peninsula is most likely due to ancient selection, which has been further strengthened by recent founder effects due to the tradition of consanguineous marriages in Saudi populations and to genetic drift. However, owing to multiple migrations between Africa and Arabia one cannot exclude the reverse possibility that the G−13915 allele was imported from the Middle East to Eastern African populations.23,24,25

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
My hypothesis is that you really are a spambot and that your posts are meaningless, Ish Gebor. This is why you refuse to actually construct any kind of argument; it's beyond your programming.

---

This site is full of drama and characters. But I am figuring out if one can stick around long enough and learn to sift through the BS, one can actually learn a thing or two.

And besides, it can be so God-damned entertaining!

---

What is dramatical and entertaining for a character is when your location says Asia and your screen name says Mansa Musa. That is pure comedy.


Is there a possibility the REAL Mansa Musa spoke a branch of Afrasan?
 

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Posted by Swenet (Member # 17303) on :
 
Anyone who thinks this is a place of learning is confused. Any forum where the majority has taken DNA tribes Amarna analysis literally for four+ years (2012-2016) has not learned anything and can't be trusted to speak the truth, EVER. Just like Henry Louis Gates, these people have forever forfeited their credibility to speak on certain matters. Everyone can blunder, but fervently defending demonstrably false and nitpicked information for ideological reasons is unforgivable. (And I invite people to hold me to the same standards; good luck finding examples of me engaging in that type of behaviour). These people supposedly champion Keita but ignore what he says every chance they get. Learning? Don't make me laugh. And what you call drama, some would call taking a much-needed broom through this place.

quote:

---

The centroid values of the various upper
Egyptian series viewed collectively are seen
to vary over time. The general trend from
Badari to Nakada times, and then from the
Nakadan to the First Dynasty epochs dem-
onstrate change toward the northern-Egyp-
tian centroid value on Function I with simi-
lar values on Function 11. This might
represent an average change from an Afri-
coid (Keita, 1990) to a northern-Egyptian-
Maghreb modal pattern. It is clear however
from the unknown analyses that the Aby-
dene centroid value is explained primarily
by the relatively greater number of crania
with northern-Egyptian-Maghreb and Eu-
ropean patterns in the series. Badari crania
analyzed in this fashion revealed few or none
which classified into the northern-Egyptian
groups (Keita, 1990).

---

—Keita 1992

"Learning"? So show me who here hasn't systematically resisted and ignored this. And this was published in 1992. We're in 2017 and people have simply regressed and went backward, preferring some Great Lakes/E1b1a fairy tale and calling people with legitimate concerns "racist".


 

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Posted by Cass/ (Member # 22355) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
[QB] .


.
The Episode of Genetic Drift Defining the Migration of Humans out of Africa Is Derived from a Large East African Population Size

Nuha Elhassan , Eyoab Iyasu Gebremeskel , Mohamed Ali Elnour, Dan Isabirye, John Okello, Ayman Hussien, Dominic Kwiatksowski, Jibril Hirbo, Sara Tishkoff, Muntaser E. Ibrahim
Published: May 20, 2014


"Both MDS plots discriminated between Africans and non-Africans in their first coordinate, although in the IBS plot where the variance measure is more pronounced the drift effect and low Ne is prominent. In the FST based MDS the 2nd coordinate differentiates between Sudanese and the rest of Africa (except San), and between Asians and Europeans. Interestingly Beja population from Sudan maintains an intermediate position between Africans and non-Africans in both plots."

---

What happens when you include a lot more population samples is most those spaces are filled; Tishkoff et al. 2009 included over 100 samples from Africa-


See the smooth genetic gradient running from Western Eurasians to Saharans [North Africans]. This is game over for "Pan-Africanism". There's no discontinuous pan-African genetic cluster. I've also used the same PCA for years to debunk claims you often read on places like Stormfront that Europe is genetically seperated from West Asia/Levant.
 

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Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Cass/:

See the smooth genetic gradient running from Western Eurasians to Saharans [North Africans]. This is game over for "Pan-Africanism". There's no discontinuous pan-African genetic cluster. I've also used the same PCA for years to debunk claims you often read on places like Stormfront that Europe is genetically seperated from West Asia/Levant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Swenet:
Anyone who thinks this is a place of learning is confused. Any forum where the majority has taken DNA tribes Amarna analysis literally for four+ years (2012-2016) has not learned anything and can't be trusted to speak the truth, EVER. Just like Henry Louis Gates, these people have forever forfeited their credibility to speak on certain matters. Everyone can blunder, but fervently defending demonstrably false and nitpicked information for ideological reasons is unforgivable. (And I invite people to hold me to the same standards; good luck finding examples of me engaging in that type of behaviour). These people supposedly champion Keita but ignore what he says every chance they get. Learning? Don't make me laugh. And what you call drama, some would call taking a much-needed broom through this place.

quote:

---

The centroid values of the various upper
Egyptian series viewed collectively are seen
to vary over time. The general trend from
Badari to Nakada times, and then from the
Nakadan to the First Dynasty epochs dem-
onstrate change toward the northern-Egyp-
tian centroid value on Function I with simi-
lar values on Function 11. This might
represent an average change from an Afri-
coid (Keita, 1990) to a northern-Egyptian-
Maghreb modal pattern. It is clear however
from the unknown analyses that the Aby-
dene centroid value is explained primarily
by the relatively greater number of crania
with northern-Egyptian-Maghreb and Eu-
ropean patterns in the series. Badari crania
analyzed in this fashion revealed few or none
which classified into the northern-Egyptian
groups (Keita, 1990).

---

—Keita 1992

"Learning"? So show me who here hasn't systematically resisted and ignored this. And this was published in 1992. We're in 2017 and people have simply regressed and went backward, preferring some Great Lakes/E1b1a fairy tale and calling people with legitimate concerns "racist".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
My hypothesis is that you really are a spambot and that your posts are meaningless, Ish Gebor. This is why you refuse to actually construct any kind of argument; it's beyond your programming.

---

This site is full of drama and characters. But I am figuring out if one can stick around long enough and learn to sift through the BS, one can actually learn a thing or two.

And besides, it can be so God-damned entertaining!

---

What is dramatical and entertaining for a character is when your location says Asia and your screen name says Mansa Musa. That is pure comedy.


Is there a possibility the REAL Mansa Musa spoke a branch of Afrasan?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mansamusa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
My hypothesis is that you really are a spambot and that your posts are meaningless, Ish Gebor. This is why you refuse to actually construct any kind of argument; it's beyond your programming.

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This site is full of drama and characters. But I am figuring out if one can stick around long enough and learn to sift through the BS, one can actually learn a thing or two.

And besides, it can be so God-damned entertaining!

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What is dramatical and entertaining for a character is when your location says Asia and your screen name says Mansa Musa. That is pure comedy.


Is there a possibility the REAL Mansa Musa spoke a branch of Afrasan?

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Miss me with the Egyptsearch drama. What's wrong with a Black guy being in Asia?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I know quite a few black guys in Asia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
I know quite a few black guys in Asia.

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pause

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Does anyone have a comparison of Egyptian transliterations with Afro-asiatic languages?

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"The word Copt is derived from the Greek word Aigyptos, which was, in turn, derived from "Hikaptah", one of the names for Memphis, the first capital of Ancient Egypt.

The modern use of the term "Coptic" describes Egyptian Christians, as well as the last stage of the ancient Egyptian language script. Also, it describes the distinctive art and architecture that developed as an early expression of the new faith."

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quote:

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"The Coptic language developed around 300 C.E. in Egypt. It is Egyptian language written using the Greek alphabet, as well as a couple of Demotic signs. This script was much easier to learn than the earlier writing systems used in ancient Egypt: hieroglyphic, hieratic and demotic scripts.

[...]

Egypt’s Coptic period—also called Egypt’s Christian period—lasted 500 years, from the fourth century to the ninth century C.E., when the majority of Egypt’s population was Christian. The major shift in religion—from the old Egyptian religion to Christianity—occurred in Egypt between 200 and 400 C.E.

This change was undoubtedly accelerated when Constantine declared Christianity a legal religion in 313 C.E."

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quote:

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Introduction

Alexander’s conquest of Egypt in 332 BCE heralded two lengthy periods of foreign rule over the ancient civilization of the Nile. Following Alexander’s death, a Greco-Macedonian dynasty—the Ptolemies—obtained control of Egypt during the Hellenistic period. In 31 BCE, Octavian’s victory over the last Ptolemaic ruler, Cleopatra VII, led to Egypt’s incorporation into the Roman Empire and the beginning of another major new era of Egyptian (and Mediterranean) history. During these two periods of foreign rule, Egypt became a crossroads for the entire Mediterranean, inhabited not only by indigenous Egyptians but also Greeks, Jews, and many others. The wide-ranging trade networks, cultural exchanges, population movements, and religious interactions of these periods provide ancient parallels for modern phenomena such as globalization, imperialism, and tourism. Furthermore, thanks to the dry Egyptian climate, the extraordinary preservation both of material and textual (especially papyrological) evidence from these periods makes Egypt an exceptionally well-documented region of the Hellenistic and Roman Mediterranean. This wealth of data means that any comprehensive study of Hellenistic and Roman Egypt must combine the fruits of numerous disciplines, including (just to name a few) archaeology, philology, history, and art history. Scholars must additionally engage with at least two major languages (Egyptian and Greek—in addition to other languages preserved in fewer documents from Egypt, such as Latin and Hebrew); up to seven scripts (Greek, hieroglyphic, hieratic, Demotic, Latin, occasionally Hebrew, and, for the later Roman period, also Coptic); and multiple phases of the Egyptian language, because texts written in “classical” Middle Egyptian were still produced at periods when the spoken language had become dramatically different. Partly because of the increasing embrace of multidisciplinary approaches, research on Hellenistic and Roman Egypt has undergone immense changes in the later 20th and 21st centuries. These periods are sometimes categorized together as the “Greco-Roman period,” although some scholars challenge this practice (e.g., Lewis 1995, cited under General Overviews), arguing that the term “Greco-Roman period” conceals major social, political, and economic differences between Ptolemaic and Roman administrations. However, both periods do share certain distinctive cultural features—for example, the existence of a substantial element of the population that considered itself “Hellenic” (although definitions of “Hellene” were themselves subject to much change over time: see Ethnicity and Ethnic Identity). This article accordingly retains the term “Greco-Roman” as an umbrella term both for Hellenistic and Roman Egypt, while acknowledging the existence of profound differences between these periods. The chronological focus of this article starts with the death of Alexander in 323 BCE and ends with the transition to the “Late Antique” or “late Roman” period, here defined as dating from Diocletian’s accession in 284 CE. As a result, most of the rich literature on Late Antique Egypt and the rise of Coptic Christianity is omitted here (although some specific works cited do draw on material both earlier and later than the article’s primary focus). For references on Late Antiquity and early Christianity, readers should consult several other Oxford Bibliographies articles (e.g., Eric Rebillard’s articles Roman History: Late Antiquity and Early Christianity).

Bowman 1996 provides a historical and cultural overview of the Hellenistic and Roman periods (and beyond) in Egypt, while Bagnall and Rathbone 2004 describes the major archaeological sites. For the Hellenistic period in particular, Chauveau 2000 is an accessible introductory text, Hölbl 2001 and Huss 2001 are excellent histories, and Manning 2010 (cited under Ptolemaic Administration) discusses government and economy. Lewis 1999 offers a social history of Roman Egypt, and Ritner 1998 provides a brief survey of major political developments. Mitteis and Wilcken 1912 discusses—and provides primary papyrological sources on—many aspects of state and society in Hellenistic, Roman, and Byzantine Egypt; the authors’ four-volume study, foundational to papyrology as a discipline, helped shape the concerns and orientation of much subsequent papyrological research. Lewis 1995 (originally published in 1970) may at first seem an odd choice for inclusion in this section, since the article does not attempt to provide an “overview” of Hellenistic or Roman Egypt, focusing instead on administrative changes associated with the start of Roman rule. However, this study still serves as a useful starting point for problematizing any discussion of “the Greco-Roman period” in Egypt; citing numerous changes in society and government from the Ptolemies to the Romans, Naphtali Lewis launched an influential argument against the conflation of these periods through the use of the term “Greco-Roman.”

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Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
Copt ~ Gebt

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Does anyone have a comparison of Egyptian transliterations with Afro-asiatic languages?

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A new study shows that Amara and Tigre merchants founded the ancient civilization of Gebts 5100 years ago and as a result developed the world’s first written language of business and trade.

Gebts represented a prime location to sell their goods and products, which Amara and Tigre merchants appear to have done in the area since 6000 years ago. But the key to establishing the ancient civilization that we all know about was when the Amara and Tigre merchants moved their farms and production into Gebts. Once they did, they needed to develop a way to document workers, wages, productions and sales.

Evidence is found in the word for “writing” in ancient Gebts, “matet”, which of course means, “give a report,” in Amarigna (“mehtat” in Tigrigna).

Using drawn-out objects to represent vowels and consonants, the Amara and Tigre developed a written language that could be used with both Amarigna and Tigrigna. Each vowel or consonant was taken from an object that contained it. Thus a drawing of a leg (“bat”) represented the consonant “b” and a closed lock (“zege”) was drawn for the consonant “z.”

Moving Amara and Tigre farming production into Gebts meant the local Gebts population could be employed as the farming and production labor. This allowed the merchants to generate an economy that never existed before.

But also, moving into the new region stimulated the economy with export sales, since new international markets could more easily and quickly be reached from the north-facing ports of Gebts at the Mediterranean Sea. This was an important opportunity for both Amara and Tigre merchants, as prior to this, Amara had to rely on the Nile River and Tigre had previously done trade primarily through the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf to the south.

As a part of the administration of Gebts by the Amara and Tigre, Amarigna and Tigrigna represented a unique 2-language national written language system.

Surprisingly, the study reveals that Amarigna and Tigrigna were not recently split from each other, as it is commonly believed, and were already distinct languages 5100 years ago. The study also shows that Amara and Tigre culture has remained very much unchanged from 5100 years ago; we use the same words, eat the same food, and share the same beliefs 5100 years ago as we do now.

To view a list of 250 words from the ancient Gebts writings, visit
ancientgebts.org

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Does anyone have a comparison of Egyptian transliterations with Afro-asiatic languages?

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quote:

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A new study shows that Amara and Tigre merchants founded the ancient civilization of Gebts 5100 years ago and as a result developed the world’s first written language of business and trade.

Gebts represented a prime location to sell their goods and products, which Amara and Tigre merchants appear to have done in the area since 6000 years ago. But the key to establishing the ancient civilization that we all know about was when the Amara and Tigre merchants moved their farms and production into Gebts. Once they did, they needed to develop a way to document workers, wages, productions and sales.

Evidence is found in the word for “writing” in ancient Gebts, “matet”, which of course means, “give a report,” in Amarigna (“mehtat” in Tigrigna).

Using drawn-out objects to represent vowels and consonants, the Amara and Tigre developed a written language that could be used with both Amarigna and Tigrigna. Each vowel or consonant was taken from an object that contained it. Thus a drawing of a leg (“bat”) represented the consonant “b” and a closed lock (“zege”) was drawn for the consonant “z.”

Moving Amara and Tigre farming production into Gebts meant the local Gebts population could be employed as the farming and production labor. This allowed the merchants to generate an economy that never existed before.

But also, moving into the new region stimulated the economy with export sales, since new international markets could more easily and quickly be reached from the north-facing ports of Gebts at the Mediterranean Sea. This was an important opportunity for both Amara and Tigre merchants, as prior to this, Amara had to rely on the Nile River and Tigre had previously done trade primarily through the Red Sea, Indian Ocean, Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf to the south.

As a part of the administration of Gebts by the Amara and Tigre, Amarigna and Tigrigna represented a unique 2-language national written language system.

Surprisingly, the study reveals that Amarigna and Tigrigna were not recently split from each other, as it is commonly believed, and were already distinct languages 5100 years ago. The study also shows that Amara and Tigre culture has remained very much unchanged from 5100 years ago; we use the same words, eat the same food, and share the same beliefs 5100 years ago as we do now.

To view a list of 250 words from the ancient Gebts writings, visit
ancientgebts.org

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http://www.ethiopianreview.com/index/2678

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Legesse Allyn hasnt really checked out well to scrutiny. I wonder how he would feel about a debate. He has more work than I expected.

Punos_Rey's link did provide some examples. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Legesse Allyn hasnt really checked out well to scrutiny. I wonder how he would feel about a debate. He has more work than I expected.

Punos_Rey's link did provide some examples.

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You should contact him for that. I am sure he is willing to debate online (Google Video). I am sure he can elaborate on the Omotic relation in Punos_Rey's link. For sure there is a linguistic substratum within the region.





http://ancientgebts.org
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Legesse Allyn hasnt really checked out well to scrutiny. I wonder how he would feel about a debate. He has more work than I expected.

Punos_Rey's link did provide some examples.

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Isg Gebor the lesson here is that with one simple link Punos Rey showed some examples.
Compared to you, as usual off target, only spamming related data that is not related enough to answer a simple request [/QB]

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Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
Khmt/Gebt.s/Qbt/Copt.ic/Aigypt.o

*Xyuambuatla: multiple meanings depending on language, but possibly "serpentine" (referring to Nile Valley)

A very ancient compound root derived from 'infant nursing' but has derived exponentially in all languages eg. Jambo, jambalaya, gupot, etc.
Se.rp.ent/(xy).rip.arian/riv.er/sc.rib.e

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So how do you break it up into syllables?
 

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Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
Every which way. To dramatize (always good at ES) take a multiple-syllable sound and explode it into any possible sound permutation while not changing the consonant order (although some languages change the order too eg. Arabic which is hard if I don't know the triliteral "synonyms" like kitab/tabik or whatever.

X can become c, ch, sh, x, tsch, k, and many others. U can appear as u, w, y, r, l, v, b etc. It depends on the geographic-temporal distance from the Congo, and is affected by arid climates. It is fuxing complex like a 4D oral jigsaw puzzle.

Xyuamuabuatlaxya (dry) = Nzjambuangdualua (wet)

Basically I'm a hunter in a forest tracking echoes of long ago conversations, most of which were initiated via the mouths of babies.
 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
A three way elimination debate

1. However flawed the Greenberg families may be, they are heavily researched, thus they are the best foundation for future classifications/inquiries.


2. The 'build it from scratch' model posed by Jean Claude Mboli.



3. And the Diop/Obenga model that lies betwixt.

 

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Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
42tribes, I don't find those so helpful, grammar is less important than vocabulary in my work, and language names are too ephemeral, like giving a name to a waterdrop in a river. Useful for some functions, not for others.

Greenberg & Ruhlen are better than many linguists stuck on PIE.

No opinion on Diop/Obenga, Mboli, too recent for me.

Recall that AmerIndian roots are very similar to 4 main language African roots, almost identical.
 

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Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
^^Interesting
And btw sorry for that picture beast spam but that is literally the only Afro-Asiatic family tree that did it any justice. (At least as far as I know it).
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
^^Interesting
And btw sorry for that picture beast spam but that is literally the only Afro-Asiatic family tree that did it any justice. (At least as far as I know it).

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