• The etymologies of isidore of Seville “Black night possesses the bodies of the Moors; the Gauls have white skins;” xix 23: 7 “mauron is black, for the Greeks call black mauros.” Xii 1:55
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
the color black black person Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Moses defeats the moors Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Mora Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
"Moses Defeating the Moors" a Bavarian illustration from c.1400-1410
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
• |iamque in palantes ac versos terga feroces pugnabant itali, subitus cum mole pavenda terrificis Maurus prorumpit tunger in armis. Nigra viro membra, et furvi iuga celsa trahebant cornipedes, totusque novae formidinis arte concolor aequabat liventia currus equorumterga; nec erectis similes imponere cristis cessarat pennas, aterque tegebat amictus.|‘’tunger, the moor, a terrible giant, rushed forward to battle. His body was black, and his lofty chariot was drawn by black horses; and the chariot- a new device to strike terror- was the same color all over as the dusky backs of the steeds; and on his lofty crest he had been careful to set a plume of the same hue; and the garment he wore was black also.’’ punica vii 680- 685
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
what is the translation of these quotes below containing the word "maurus" ( don't have the translation coordinated to these) also from the Punica, the poem dated aroung 100 AD which talks about, semi mythologically "giant etc" of the Second Punic War three hundred years or so earlier
quote: ferrumque super cervice tremiscens palluit infelix subducto sanguine Maurus. ora rapit gladio praefixaque cuspide portat...
ergo alacer Fabiumque morae increpitare professus, ad vulgum in patres, ut ovans iam, verba ferebat: " vos, quorum imperium est, consul praeceptamodum- que 265
bellandi posco. sedeone an montibus erro, dum mecum Garamas et adustus corpora Maurus...
et murmure anhelo squalentes campos ac longa mapalia complent — omnis in occultas rupes atque avia pernix 375
Maurus saxa fugit, coniuxque Libyssa profuso, vagitum cohibens, suspendit ab ubere natos ; illi dira fremunt, perfractaque in ore cruento ossa sonant, pugnantque feris sub dentibus artus — baud secus Egeriae pubes, hinc Virbius acer,...
candentes gelido perfundit flumine tauros. sed tristes superi, atque ingrata maxima cura victima Tarpeio frustra nutrita Tonanti. instat Hiber levis et levior discurrere Maurus. hinc pila, hinc Libycae certant subtexere cornus 660 densa nube polum ; quantumque interiacet aequi ad ripas campi, tantum vibrantia condunt tela ; nee artatis locus est in morte cadendi. Allius, Argyripa Daunique profectus ab arvis....
candentes gelido perfundit flumine tauros. sed tristes superi, atque ingrata maxima cura victima Tarpeio frustra nutrita Tonanti. instat Hiber levis et levior discurrere Maurus. hinc pila, hinc Libycae certant subtexere cornus 660 densa nube polum ; quantumque interiacet aequi ad ripas campi, tantum vibrantia condunt tela ; nee artatis locus est in morte cadendi. Allius, Argyripa Daunique profectus ab arvis ...
it stridens per utrumque latus Maurusia taxus ; obvia tum medio sonuerunt spicula corde, incertumque fuit, letum cui cederet hastae. et iam, dispersis Romana per agmina signis, 570
Also "maurus" does not necessarily connect to moors typically as
wiki:
quote: The Moors were the Muslim inhabitants of the Maghreb, North Africa, the Iberian Peninsula, Sicily, and Malta during the Middle Ages, who initially were Berber and Arab peoples from North Africa Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people,[3] and mainstream scholars observed in 1911 that "The term 'Moors' has no real ethnological value."[4] Medieval and early modern Europeans variously applied the name to Arabs, Berber North Africans and Muslim Europeans.[5] The term has also been used in Europe in a broader, somewhat derogatory sense to refer to Muslims in general,[6] especially those of Arab or Berber descent, whether living in Spain or North Africa.[7] During the colonial era, the Portuguese introduced the names "Ceylon Moors" and "Indian Moors" in Sri Lanka, and the Bengali Muslims were also called Moors.[8]
In 711, troops mostly formed by Moors from North Africa led the Umayyad conquest of Hispania.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
wiki:
quote: The Moors were the Muslim inhabitants of the Maghreb, North Africa, the Iberian Peninsula, Sicily, and Malta during the Middle Ages, who initially were Berber and Arab peoples from North Africa Moors are not a distinct or self-defined people,[3] and mainstream scholars observed in 1911 that "The term 'Moors' has no real ethnological value."[4] Medieval and early modern Europeans variously applied the name to Arabs, Berber North Africans and Muslim Europeans.[5] The term has also been used in Europe in a broader, somewhat derogatory sense to refer to Muslims in general,[6] especially those of Arab or Berber descent, whether living in Spain or North Africa.[7] During the colonial era, the Portuguese introduced the names "Ceylon Moors" and "Indian Moors" in Sri Lanka, and the Bengali Muslims were also called Moors.[8]
In 711, troops mostly formed by Moors from North Africa led the Umayyad conquest of Hispania.
when has an Arab ever been called a "Moor" by medieval or early Europeans?
Arabs and Muslims were called Saracens or Muhammadans
what is a Berber? Berber is a vague term for Africans in east and north Africa
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
•‘’the people of this country (Mauritania) are Ethiopic: and they are in stature the largest of any nation with which we are acquainted’’ periplus scylax caryandensis v1 pg 54
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: when has an Arab ever been called a "Moor" by medieval or early Europeans?
numerous times Arab muslims living in North Africa in medieval times were often called Moors and to berbers of any color
St. James the Moor slayer
Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud ben Mohammed Anoun, Moorish Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth I
Now look at this thread:
Moorish troops with captives, Cantigas de Santa Maria, 13th C. AD
"the sugar cannot be made with out the help of African slaves, and that in great numbers; for Angola alone provided fifteen thousand four hundred and thirty MOORS for the sugar mills about olinda."chap VII pg 506 America : being the latest, and most accurate description of the New World by john ogilby
there are no Muslims in Angola
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: when has an Arab ever been called a "Moor" by medieval or early Europeans?
numerous times Arab muslims living in North Africa in medieval times were often called Moors and to berbers of any color
St. James the Moor slayer ^^^(st. james the Saracen slayer)
Abd el-Ouahed ben Messaoud ben Mohammed Anoun, Moorish Ambassador to Queen Elizabeth I (was he called a moor?) this man is not an ancient moor
Now look at this thread:
Moorish troops with captives, Cantigas de Santa Maria, 13th C. AD
show me one quote from a European that called Arabs moors
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "the sugar cannot be made with out the help of African slaves, and that in great numbers; for Angola alone provided fifteen thousand four hundred and thirty MOORS for the sugar mills about olinda."chap VII pg 506 America : being the latest, and most accurate description of the New World by john ogilby
That is one of the many variant uses of the term "Moor" a European term. One often speaks of Moors as north African Muslims who invaded Spain but if you look at some of this quote by John Ogilby he is using it to mean "any African" as he is talking about Angolan slaves in Brazil, not even Muslims and having nothing to do with the conquest of Spain The term has no stable meaning historically as per usage
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: show me one quote from a European that called Arabs moors [/QB]
I gave you the link to the thread
They are not going to say "I am calling this Arab a Moor" They will simply use the term "Moor" for Arabs, Berbers and Africans they are not going to simultaneously use the word "Arab" at the same time
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "the sugar cannot be made with out the help of African slaves, and that in great numbers; for Angola alone provided fifteen thousand four hundred and thirty MOORS for the sugar mills about olinda."chap VII pg 506 America : being the latest, and most accurate description of the New World by john ogilby
That is one of the many variant uses of the term "Moor" a European term. One often speaks of Moors as north African Muslims who invaded Spain but if you look at some of this quote by John Ogilby he is using it to mean "any African" as he is talking about Angolan slaves in Brazil, not even Muslims and having nothing to do with the conquest of Spain The term has no stable meaning historically as per usage
the point of the quote is to debunk your and other historians theory of moor meaning Muslim
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "the sugar cannot be made with out the help of African slaves, and that in great numbers; for Angola alone provided fifteen thousand four hundred and thirty MOORS for the sugar mills about olinda."chap VII pg 506 America : being the latest, and most accurate description of the New World by john ogilby
That is one of the many variant uses of the term "Moor" a European term. One often speaks of Moors as north African Muslims who invaded Spain but if you look at some of this quote by John Ogilby he is using it to mean "any African" as he is talking about Angolan slaves in Brazil, not even Muslims and having nothing to do with the conquest of Spain The term has no stable meaning historically as per usage
the point of the quote is to debunk your and other historians theory of moor meaning Muslim
It doesn't debunk anything.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "the sugar cannot be made with out the help of African slaves, and that in great numbers; for Angola alone provided fifteen thousand four hundred and thirty MOORS for the sugar mills about olinda."chap VII pg 506 America : being the latest, and most accurate description of the New World by john ogilby
That is one of the many variant uses of the term "Moor" a European term. One often speaks of Moors as north African Muslims who invaded Spain but if you look at some of this quote by John Ogilby he is using it to mean "any African" as he is talking about Angolan slaves in Brazil, not even Muslims and having nothing to do with the conquest of Spain The term has no stable meaning historically as per usage
the point of the quote is to debunk your and other historians theory of moor meaning Muslim
It doesn't debunk anything.
Are Angolans Muslims?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "the sugar cannot be made with out the help of African slaves, and that in great numbers; for Angola alone provided fifteen thousand four hundred and thirty MOORS for the sugar mills about olinda."chap VII pg 506 America : being the latest, and most accurate description of the New World by john ogilby
That is one of the many variant uses of the term "Moor" a European term. One often speaks of Moors as north African Muslims who invaded Spain but if you look at some of this quote by John Ogilby he is using it to mean "any African" as he is talking about Angolan slaves in Brazil, not even Muslims and having nothing to do with the conquest of Spain The term has no stable meaning historically as per usage
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: show me one quote from a European that called Arabs moors
I gave you the link to the thread
They are not going to say "I am calling this Arab a Moor" They will simply use the term "Moor" for Arabs, Berbers and Africans they are not going to simultaneously use the word "Arab" at the same time [/QB]
Arab is someone from Arabia
Leo Africanus differentiate between Arabs and Moors
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Arab is someone from Arabia
Leo Africanus differentiate between Arabs and Moors [/QB]
was Leo Africanus a moor?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Arab is someone from Arabia
Leo Africanus differentiate between Arabs and Moors
was Leo Africanus a moor? [/QB]
yes perhaps a white moor
leo africanus wrote in Italian
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Arab is someone from Arabia
Leo Africanus differentiate between Arabs and Moors
was Leo Africanus a moor?
yes perhaps a white moor
leo africanus wrote in Italian [/QB]
That reads a bit weird. White-Moor. It's like saying white-black dude.
From what I read / heard he was a Berber.
quote: Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Moses defeats the moors
According the Coptic mythology and the Qumran Moshe had dark skin.
It is highly doubtful that this is actually Moses vs Moors, but it gives a good indication on how Moors were depicted.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [qb] Moses defeats the moors
According the Coptic mythology and the Quran Moshe had dark skin.
what sura says Moshe had dark skin?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [qb] Moses defeats the moors
According the Coptic mythology and the Quran Moshe had dark skin.
what sura says Moshe had dark skin?
Sorry I did not say Quran, say said Qumran. Why are you altering my text, then ask me weird questions based on that alteration, like what "sura"?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [qb] Moses defeats the moors
According the Coptic mythology and the Quran Moshe had dark skin.
what sura says Moshe had dark skin?
What Sura says moshe had light skin?
Did moshe's hand turn black or white? when he pulled it out his bosom
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^This is getting crazy.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Arab is someone from Arabia
Leo Africanus differentiate between Arabs and Moors
was Leo Africanus a moor?
yes perhaps a white moor
leo africanus wrote in Italian
That reads a bit weird. White-Moor. It's like saying white-black dude.
From what I read / heard he was a Berber.
quote: Αἰθίοψ , οπος, ὁ, fem. Αἰθιοπίς , ίδος, ἡ （Αἰθίοψ as fem., A.Fr.328, 329): pl.
A. “Αἰθιοπῆες” Il.1.423, whence nom. “Αἰθιοπεύς” Call.Del.208: (αἴθω, ὄψ):—properly, Burnt-face, i.e. Ethiopian, negro, Hom., etc.; prov., Αἰθίοπα σμήχειν 'to wash a blackamoor white', Luc.Ind. 28.
2. a fish, Agatharch.109.
II. Adj., Ethiopian, “Αἰθιοπὶς γλῶσσα” Hdt.3.19; “γῆ” A.Fr.300, E.Fr.228.4: Subst. Αἰθιοπίς, ἡ, title of Epic poem in the Homeric cycle; also name of a plant, silver sage, Salvia argentea, Dsc.4.104:— also Αἰθιόπιος , α, ον, E.Fr.349: Αἰθιοπικός , ή, όν, Hdt., etc.; Αἰ. κύμινον, = ἄμι, Hp.Morb.3.17, Dsc. 3.62:—Subst. Αἰθιοπία , ἡ, Hdt., etc. 2. red-brown, AP7.196 (Mel.), cf. Ach. Tat.4.5.
Ps, notice how the words, Ethiopian, Moor and Negro are being used synonymous (indiscriminately?). [/QB]
moor lost its original meaning by the time of leo africanus North Africans no longer were called black during his time period (because of the race mixing that caused the population to lighten)
Italians and Spaniards called them white moors or bianchi affricani (white Africans) (the white moors and the people of the Mediterranean are the same complexion)
While the English called them tawny moors (the English were a extremely white skinned people so the white moors appeared tanned skinned to them)
there still existed the black moors which are the oldest kind of moor
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"the moors of Angola do know that there is a god, and do call god caripongoa, but they worship the sun and the moon" pg 95 The Strange Adventures of Andrew Battell of Leigh, in Angola and the adjoining regions by Andrew Battell, Samuel Purchas, Anthony Knivet
the lioness can you please tell me again how moor means Muslim?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Two noble moors playing chess Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: there still existed the black moors which are the oldest kind of moor
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Moses defeats the moors
According the Coptic mythology and the Qumran Moshe had dark skin.
It is highly doubtful that this is actually Moses vs Moors, but it gives a good indication on how Moors were depicted.
I thought you meant Quran. Usually people refer to the "dead sea scrolls" when talking about text rather than the Qumran location where they were found. Also nobody says " the Qumran Moshe ". I don't know what " the Qumran Moshe ".is supposed to mean
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Two noble moors playing chess
You are not citing properly you list no source It is 13tc. Libro de los Juegos ("Book of games"), commissioned by Alfonso X of Castile Please get in the habit of doing this. Ish Gebor does it
that caption "Two noble moors playing chess" does not appear in the text
Este es otro iuego departido en que ha tre- ynta trebeios que an seer entablados assi como estan en la figura del entablamiento & a sse de iugar desta guisa.} LOs blancos iuegan pri`mero. & uençen a los pri`etos o amannan. & esto a de seer en dize seys uezes dan- do xaque al Rey prieto cada uez con uno delos cauallos blancos. fata quel fagan tor- nar a aquella casa onde salio primero; quan- do se entablo. % El primero iuego dar la xaque con el cauallo. blanco que esta en la tercera casa del cauallo blanco. poniendol en la quarta casa del Roque prieto. o en la qua- rta casa del alffil prieto. Si el Rey prieto en- trare en la casa de so Roque; es mate al pri- mero iuego. dandol xaque con el otro caual- lo blanco en la tercera casa del cauallo pri`eto. Pues lo meior es que entre en la casa de so alffil. % El segundo iuego dar la xaque del otro cauallo blanco en la tercera casa del cauallo prieto entrara el Rey prieto en su ca- sa. % El tercero iuego dar la xaque del ca- uallo blanco en la segunda casa del cauallo prieto; entrara el Rey prieto en la segunda casa de su Alferza. % El quarto iuego dar la xaque del cauallo blanco; en la casa del alffil prieto. entrara el Rey prieto enla seg- unda casa de so alffil. % El quinto iuego darla xaque con el cauallo blanco en la ca- sa del Rey prieto. si el Rey prieto entrare en la casa de so cauallo; es mate al primero iuego dandol xaque con el cauallo blanco en la segunda casa del alfferza prieta. Pues` lo meior es que entre en la tercera casa de so cauallo. % El sexto iuego dar le xaque con el cauallo blanco en la segunda casa del alfferza pri`eta; entrara el Rey prieto en la quarta casa de so cauallo. % El sete- no iuego darla xaque con el cauallo blan- co en la segunda casa del alffil prieto; entra`- ra el Rey prieto en la quarta casa del alffil blanco. ca si entrare en la quarta casa del Roque blanco; serie mate al primero iue- go dandol xaque con el cauallo blanco. en} {CB2. la quarta casa del cauallo prieto. % El ocha- uo iuego dar la xaque del cauallo blanco. en la terçera casa del cauallo prieto. & entrara el Rey prieto en la tercera casa del alffil blan- co. % El noueno iuego dar la xaque con el cauallo blanco en la quarta casa del cauallo prieto. & entrara el Rey prieto en la segunda casa del alfferza blanca. % El dezeno iuego dar la xaque del cauallo blanco. en la quarta casa del alffil blanco. & entrara el Rey prie- to en la segunda casa del Rey blanco. % El onzeno iuego dar la xaque con el caual- lo blanco en la tercera casa del alffil blan- co. entrara el Rey prieto en la tercera casa; del otro alffil blanco. % El dozeno iuego. darla xaque con el cauallo blanco en la se- gunda casa del alfferza blanca; & entrara el Rey prieto en la tercera casa del cauallo blanco. % El trezeno iuego dar la xaque con el cauallo blanco; en la segunda casa del Rey blanco. & entrara el Rey prieto; en la quarta casa del rroque blanco. % El cator- zeno iuego dar la xaque del cauallo blanco. en la tercera casa del alffil blanco. & entrara el Rey prieto enla quarta casa de so roque. [%] El quinzeno iuego dar la xaque con el ca- uallo blanco en la tercera casa del cauallo blanco. & entrara el Rey prieto en la tercera casa de so cauallo. % El sezeno iuego dar- la xaque con el cauallo blanco en la quarta casa del Roque blanco. tornarsa el Rey (blan- co) [prieto] por fuerça; a la segunda casa de so caual- lo. o fue entablado primero. & En esta guisa es el iuego manna. E si el uno delos cauallos` blancos errare de dar xaque cada uez al Rey prieto; es el Rey blanco mate al primero iue- go con el roque prieto tomando el alffil blan- co que esta enla casa del cauallo blanco o to- mando el peon blanco que esta en la segun- da casa del Roque blanco. & este es el depar- timiento deste iuego. E esta es la figura; del entablamiento.}
_________________________________
^I don't see the word "Moor" or "Mouros" as it would have appeared in that dialect, The text here is describing the rules of chess not who is in the picture
However I do see the word "mouros" below also commissioned by Alphonso X
^ So these might be Arabs or berbers and here they are called moors in Castilian Spanish "mouros" and clearly not dark skinned It's pretty old 13th century
writing at top inside panel says:
"Como os mouros sacaron o conde da souta da galea"
(How the Moors sacked the Count of the Gala)
Panel 5 of Page 1 of Cantiga 95 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X
^^ Here we see some more of the light skinned figures as well as dark skinned. So we can see here the term moor being applied to Islamic military of varied ethnicity. This was at a time when the term was being applied to the Islamic forces in North Africa who invaded spain which were a combination of berbers, Arabs and possibly other Africans who may have been from North Africa or possibly Sudan, Ethiopia or elsewhere.
Later on in Europe the word usage changes. For example in your example to Angolans in your quote. Later the word was used to mean "any African" but at the same time sometimes still referring to the muslims in North Africa particular involved in the Holy wars with the Christians.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: [qb] Two noble moors playing chess
You are not citing properly you list no source It is 13tc. Libro de los Juegos ("Book of games"), commissioned by Alfonso X of Castile Please get in the habit of doing this. Ish Gebor does it
that caption "Two noble moors playing chess" does not appear in the text
can you prove they are not "moors"? can you prove they are not "noble"? can you prove they are not "playing chess"? can you prove they are not "two"?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
_________________________________
However I do see the word "mouros" below also commissioned by Alphonso X
^ So these might be Arabs or berbers and here they are called moors in Castilian Spanish "mouros" and clearly not dark skinned It's pretty old 13th century
writing at top inside panel says:
"Como os mouros sacaron o conde da souta da galea"
(How the Moors sacked the Count of the Gala)
Panel 5 of Page 1 of Cantiga 95 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X
^^ Here we see some more of the light skinned figures as well as dark skinned. So we can see here the term moor being applied to Islamic military of varied ethnicity. This was at a time when the term was being applied to the Islamic forces in North Africa who invaded spain which were a combination of berbers, Arabs and possibly other Africans who may have been from North Africa or possibly Sudan, Ethiopia or elsewhere.
Later on in Europe the word usage changes. For example in your example to Angolans in your quote. Later the word was used to mean "any African" but at the same time sometimes still referring to the muslims in North Africa particular involved in the Holy wars with the Christians.
^^^ this amounts to nothing because i never said there were no white moors during this time period
the name of this topic is the "original moors"
can you prove that the above people are Arabs?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"Ethiopia is departed in two parts principal, and that is in the east part and in the meridional part; the which part meridional is clept Mauritania; and the folk of that country be black enough and more black than in the other part, and they be clept MOORS?" The travels of sir john mandeville chp 17 https://archive.org/stream/travelsofsirjohn00manduoft#page/104/mode/2up/search/moors Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"the like also would be the condition of the African moors, opposite to Spain and Italy, of whom 'tis scarce to be doubted but that they are a mixed generation; descendants of Negroes, the first inhabitants, and Europeans, from the opposite shores, by whose people they had formerly been conquered; their hair, figure, and complexion (the same with our mulatto's) bespeaking no less.whereas our remoter africans, into whose territories those nations never till of late date had pierced, and so had no opportunity of the like mixtures, are perfectly black, their frizzled like wool, as the many thousand here do witness." pg 23:16 The Negro's [and] Indians Advocate: by Morgan Godwyn
i agree with the above statement
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"maurus: quidam populus qui estivo calore combustus speciem nigri coloris atraxit"(Moor: a certain people burnt black with summer heat)Liber derivationum of pisanus ugutio 12th century
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: Moses defeats the moors
According the Coptic mythology and the Qumran Moshe had dark skin.
It is highly doubtful that this is actually Moses vs Moors, but it gives a good indication on how Moors were depicted.
I thought you meant Quran. Usually people refer to the "dead sea scrolls" when talking about text rather than the Qumran location where they were found. Also nobody says " the Qumran Moshe ". I don't know what " the Qumran Moshe ".is supposed to mean
Translated it means the same.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Also nobody says " the Qumran Moshe ".
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "the like also would be the condition of the African moors, opposite to Spain and Italy, of whom 'tis scarce to be doubted but that they are a mixed generation; descendants of Negroes, the first inhabitants, and Europeans, from the opposite shores, by whose people they had formerly been conquered; their hair, figure, and complexion (the same with our mulatto's) bespeaking no less.whereas our remoter africans, into whose territories those nations never till of late date had pierced, and so had no opportunity of the like mixtures, are perfectly black, their frizzled like wool, as the many thousand here do witness." pg 23:16 The Negro's [and] Indians Advocate: by Morgan Godwyn
i agree with the above statement
Below the map there is a source critical in understanding the topography of the Moors, including the Moriscos at Iberia (Andalusia). From what I know most Moriscos resided at the North, thus we see Alfonso's Kingdom of Galicia.
AL-ANDALUS Evolució d’un territori des del 711 fins el 1492
quote:Most studies of European genetic diversity have focused on large-scale variation and interpretations based on events in prehistory, but migrations and invasions in historical times could also have had profound effects on the genetic landscape.The geographical distribution of North African ancestry in the peninsula does not reflect the initial colonization and subsequent withdrawal and is likely to result from later enforced population movement—more marked in some regions than in others—plus the effects of genetic drift.
[…]
The established population of the Iberian Peninsula prior to 711 CE has been estimated at 7–8 million people, ruled by about 200,000 Germanic Visigoths,19 who had entered from the north in the sixth century. Though the initial invading North African force was between 10,000 and 15,000 strong, the scale of subsequent migration and settlement is uncertain, with some claiming numbers in the hundreds of thousands. 20 Islamization of the populace after the invasion was certainly rapid, but it has been argued that this reflects an exponential social process of religious conversion rather than a substantial immigration;21 a sizeable proportion of the indigenous population (the so-called Mozarabs) was allowed to retain its Christian practices, as a result of the religious tolerance of the Muslim rulers.22 There is also doubt about the extent of intermarriage between indigenous people and settlers in the early phase.20 After the overthrow of Islamic rule in most of the peninsula, a period of tolerant coexistence (convivencia) ensued in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, but after 1492 (1496 in Portugal), religious intolerance forced Spanish Muslims to either convert to Christianity (as so-called moriscos) or leave.23 After the fifteenth century, moriscos were relocated across Spain on occasion, and, finally, during 1609–1616, over 200,000 were expelled, mostly from Valencia.
As I have already shown with a picture of the original manuscript the spelling at that time and place was "mouro" or plural "mouros"
As appears in the Cantigas de Santa Maria the song-poems also commissioned by Alfonso X
example: below spelled "moro"
Cantiga 46.
Esta é como a omagen de Santa Maria, que un mouro guardava en sa casa onrradamente, deitou leite das tetas
Porque ajan de seer seus miragres mais sabudos da Virgen, deles fazer vai ant’ omees descreudos.
E dest’ avẽo assi como vos quero contar dun mouro, com’ aprendí, que con ost’ en Ultramar grande foi, segund’ oý, por crischãos guerrejar e roubar, que non eran percebudos. Porque ajan de seer…
Aquel mouro astragou as térras u pod’ entrar, e todo quanto robou feze-o sigo levar; e mui ledo sse tornou a ssa térra, e juntar foi e dar os roubos que ouv’ avudos. Porque ajan de seer…
Daquel aver que partiu foi en pera ssi fillar hua omagen que vyu da Virgen que non á par; e pois la muito cousyu, feze-a logo alçar e guardar en panos d’ ouro teçudos. Porque ajan de seer…
E ameude veer a ýa muit’ e catar; pois fillava-ss’ a dizer ontre ssi e rezõar que non podía creer que Deus quisess’ encarnar nen tomar carn’ en moller. «E perdudos Porque ajan de seer…
Son quantos lo creer van, diss’ el, ca non poss’ osmar que quisesse tal afán prender Deus nen ss’ abaxar, que el que éste tan gran se foss’ en corp’ ensserrar nen andar ontre poboos miudos, Porque ajan de seer…
Como dizen que andou pera o mundo salvar; mas se de quant’ el mostrou foss’ a mi que quer mostrar, faria-me logo sou crischão, sen detardar, e crismar con estes mouros barvudos». Porque ajan de seer…
Adur pod’ esta razón toda o mour’ encimar, quand’ á omagen enton viu duas tetas a par, de viva carn’ e d’ al non, que foron logo mãar e deitar leite come per canudos. Porque ajan de seer…
Quand’ esto viu, sen mentir, começou muit’ a chorar, e un crerigo viir fez, que o foi batiçar; e pois desto, sen falir, os seus crischãos tornar fez, e ar outros bẽes connosçudos. Porque ajan de seer….
English Translation
This is how an image of Holy Mary, which a Moor kept respectfully in his house, gave milk from its breasts.
So that the miracles of the Virgin may be more widely known, She performs them before incredulous men.
It chanced to pass, as I wish to tell you now, that a Moor, as I learned, went to the Holy Land with a great army to make war on Christians and pillage their lands, for they were unprepared. That Moor laid waste all the lands he could enter and carried off all he could steal. He triumphantly returned to his own land and piled together the booty he had taken to distribute it. Of that wealth which he divided, he set aside for himself an image of the Peerless Virgin, which caught his eye. After he had examined it closely, he had it set up in a high place and dressed in garments of spun gold. He often went to gaze upon it and thought it over and reasoned to himself that he simply could not believe that God would become incarnate nor be born of woman. "All who will believe this are mistaken," he said, "for I cannot imagine that God would undertake such suffering nor so debase Himself that He Who is so great would clothe Himself in flesh and walk among common folk, as they say He walked, in order to save the world. However, if He would make one of His manifestations to me, He would cause me to become a Christian at once and be confirmed along with these bearded Moors." The Moor had scarcely uttered this when he saw the statue's two breasts turn into living flesh and begin to flow with milk in gushing streams. When he saw this, verily he began to weep and had a priest called in who baptized him. Afterward, without fail, he had all his followers become Christians as well as many of his other acquaintances.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^Thanks I was open the phone when I posted that. I did not see everything as clear as now.
Here is more detail on the poem:
quote: During the 12th and the 13th centuries, throughout the Christian world, flourished the cult of the Virgin Mary. Men saw her as an intermediary between the common people and God, her Son, and as a symbol of absolute love and immaculate service to a feminine idea. People were inclined to ask the Virgin to plead their cases with God, and large numbers of songs were devoted to her, singing her praise and recounting the miracles that she performed in aid of the pious and the clean of heart. There are many collections of these songs in Italian, French and Latin, but the largest one is the Cantigas de Santa Maria, compiled between 1260 and 1280 by Alfonso X, El Sabio (The Wise) “King of Castilla, Toledo, Leon, Galicia, Sevilla, Cordoba, Murcia, Jaen and the Algarbe”.
[…]
In the miracle cantigas, the language is extremely matter-of-fact and the narratives often bawdy or humoristic. Their stories, like the melodies, come from a variety of sources (for example, cantiga 42 uses a story that was popular in France before the 13th century), and many were written down in other countries. The variety of the themes is infinite. Most cantigas recount miracles done upon the common folk: there is a nun who is about to flee with the knight which has seduced her, a pregnant abbess being miraculously delivered from her baby, a ship of greedy merchants caught in a storm pleading for help, even a thief spared from the gallows because he prayed to the Virgin Mary. Others deal with kings and princes, and men and women of high status. Some draw their themes from a historical background, such as cantiga 15, in which Mary defends the city of Caesaria from the Emperor Julian the Apostate or cantiga 28, in which Mary defends Constantinople against the Moors.
—Leda Filippopoulou
The Cantigas de Santa Maria The songs of the Holy Mary
Cantiga 46 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X The Moor who Venerated an Image of the Virgin Mary A Moor made war on Christians and won a great booty. He divided the spoils, keeping for himself an image of the Virgin, which he put in a high place and dressed in gold garments. He often gazed at it, but could not overcome his doubts about the Incarnation. He vowed that if God would make himself known, he would convert to Christianity. No sooner had he spoken, than the image’s breasts turned to flesh and milk began to flow from them. When the Moor saw this he wept, summoned a priest, and was baptised. Many other Moors were also converted.
(note the interracial makeup of the moors) by this time the moors were heavily racially mixed
however black moors still existed during this time period
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Cantiga 185 of the Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X The Woman whose Mother-in-law Plotted her Death A woman lived in her husband’s house. Her mother-in-law despised her and plotted her death. One day when the woman was sleeping alone, the mother-in-law ordered one of her Moorish servants to lie down beside her. Then she summoned her son and showed him his sleeping wife. The husband wanted to kill his wife, but his mother advised him to report the affair to the magistrate. The magistrate and many other witnesses saw the woman in bed with the Moor. They seized them and led them to the town square. The people lit a fire and cast the pair into the flames. The Moor was burnt to death, but the people saw a lady protecting the woman in the midst of the fire. When the woman came out of the fire, she told the people that the Virgin had delivered her.
note (black moors still existed during this time period)
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
(notice the black moor in the back)
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Notice the race of these two moors
There still were black moors still in existence at this time
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Cornelis Visscher (Dutch, 1619/29 ‑ 1658/62): Moor with bow and arrow Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Four Studies of a Head of a Moor
Peter Paul Rubens
1640 Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Marino Sanuto; Liber Secretorum Fidelium Crucis
Horsemen and Boatmen
Italy (1321) Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"A more, or black-a-more; more, ethiopien; negre; moro, negro, etiopo; moro, morisco, negro" Lexicon Tetraglotton, an English-French-Italian-Spanish Dictionary 1660
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Las Cantigas de Santa Maria of Alfonso X the Wise (1221–1284) (256 fols.), Cant. CXCII: “Como o ome bono contendia con seu mouro polo tornar crischano.
a moor converted to Christianity Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"maurus: a black moor"Thesaurus Linguæ Latinæ Compendiarius : Or A Compendious ..., Volume 2 By Robert Ainsworth 1808
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"maurus: niger, obscurus"A Large Dictionary: In Three Parts By Thomas Holyoke 1677
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"maurus, ethiops: certain black moors which eat serpents" Dictionarie, Corrected and Augmented with the Addition of Many Hundred Words ... By John Rider 1640
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"moro: uomo nero, maurus, ethiops" Nuovo vocabolario osia raccolta di vocaboli italiani, e latini a norma dell ... 1795
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"moro, uomo nero d'etiopia, etiops" Vocabolario italiano e latino, Volume 1 1742
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"Mohr: il moro, il nero, l'etiopo" Nuovo vocabolario italiano-tedesco neues deutsch-italiänisches ..., Volume 2 By Bartolommes Borroni 1799
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"mohr: moor, neger, swart" Handwoordenboek der Hoog- en Nederduitsche talen By Johann Friedrich Fleischauer 1834
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
School of Paolo Veronese
Portrait of a Moorish Woman
Italy (c. 1550s) Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Moor (n.) "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: were the original moors black?
the problem here is the word "original" You are applying it to people that never called themselves "moors" So it is not who were the original moors, it's who started calling people that
A number of sources call this painting Four Studies of the head of a Negro
Drawn by the Brush: Oil Sketches by Peter Paul Rubens By Peter C. Sutton, Marjorie E. Wieseman, Nico van Hout
Fig 1
________________________________
I'm not sure if the above oil sketch was ever titled by Rubens and if somebody titled it later what the first title of it was. You have to do deeper research. Jet black moors who are identified as moors for certain are easily found in Europeans coats of arms. However jet black moors are not the only people that the Europeans have called moors. Even with the term "black" the Europeans would apply to both dark skinned Africans as well as sometimes to other Europeans who were only a light tint of brown
However those whole subject, who were the Moors has been dealt with in many many old threads, some I was in also also
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
“From Africa too, there came countless tribes; the Nadabaræ, Gætulians, and Numidians, and from the scorching south, the people named Moors or Mauritanians, from the Greek word mauros, which means black.“ 12th century author of Itinerarium Peregrinorum et Gesta Regis Ricardi (Itinerary of Richard I and others to the Holy Land.) Chapter XXXVIII.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
i will let the quotes, pictures and definitions speak for themselves of the etymology of "moor"
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Moor (n.) "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India.
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: were the original moors black?
the problem here is the word "original" You are applying it to people that never called themselves "moors" So it is not who were the original moors, it's who started calling people that
A number of sources call this painting Four Studies of the head of a Negro
Drawn by the Brush: Oil Sketches by Peter Paul Rubens By Peter C. Sutton, Marjorie E. Wieseman, Nico van Hout
Fig 1
________________________________
I'm not sure if the above oil sketch was ever titled by Rubens and if somebody titled it later what the first title of it was. You have to do deeper research. Jet black moors who are identified as moors for certain are easily found in Europeans coats of arms. However jet black moors are not the only people that the Europeans have called moors. Even with the term "black" the Europeans would apply to both dark skinned Africans as well as sometimes to other Europeans who were only a light tint of brown
However those whole subject, who were the Moors has been dealt with in many many old threads, some I was in also also
Mohr, moor, black man and negro means the same thing
"mohr: moor, neger, swart" Handwoordenboek der Hoog- en Nederduitsche talen By Johann Friedrich Fleischauer 1834
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ... By John Ebers 1798
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"moor: a native of Mauritania in Africa, a black moor"An universal etymological English dictionary ... The twentieth edition, etc By Nathan BAILEY
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
• |leatior at circa facies, agitata ferarum agmina venatu et caelata mapalia fulgent. nec procul usta cutem nigri soror horrida mauri assuetas mulcet patrio sermone leaenas.|436-440 “hard by was a happier scene- herds of wild beasts chased by hunters, and huts, carved in shinning metal. Not far away the savage black Moorish sister soothed lionesses, and her companions, with her native speech.” punica II 439
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ... By John Ebers 1798
So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"mohr: moor, negro" New and Complete English-German and German-English Pocket ..., Volumes 1-2 By Leonhard Tafel 1881
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ... By John Ebers 1798
So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion
but moor also means "negro"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ... By John Ebers 1798
So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion
but moor also means "negro"
Does it mean Negro or Ethiopian?
does fruit mean apple?
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ... By John Ebers 1798
So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion
but moor also means "negro"
Does it mean Negro or Ethiopian?
does fruit mean apple?
both •‘’the people of this country (Mauritania) are Ethiopic: and they are in stature the largest of any nation with which we are acquainted’’ periplus scylax caryandensis v1 pg 54
apple is a fruit similar to moor is a negro
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"Moor: A negro; a blackamoor" Pantologia: A New Cabinet Cyclopaedia, Comprehending a Complete Series of ...
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"moor: hum preto,hum negro" A dictionary of the Portuguese and English languages By Antonio Vieyra 1813
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"moor:a negro" A Dictionary of the English Language: Answering at Once the Purposes of ... By John Walker 1775
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"Negro: moor,neger" "Moor: negro" The New Pocket Dictionary of the Dutch and English Languages: In Two Parts ... By Baldwin Janson 1793
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"moor:[maurus] a black, a negro" The Synonymous, Etymological, and Pronouncing English Dictionary: In which ... By William Perry (lecturer in the Academy at Edinburgh.)1805
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"morulus: some what like a blackamoor, black" Latin Dictionary: Morell's Abridgment By Robert Ainsworth, Alexander Jamieson 1828
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
Battle of Roncevaux between Roland and king Marsile "Although marsile has fled, his uncle marganice remains, he rules Carthage, Alfrere, Garmalie, and Ethiopia, an accursed land. He has the black people under his command, their noses are big and their ears are broad, and together they number more than fifty thousand" 143:1913-1919 The song of Roland
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
The battle of Puig as rendered in an altarpiece in the Victoria & Albert Museum (notice the black moors) Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
15th century depiction of Battle of Teba
(notice the black moors)
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
“...among the descendants of Sudan (blacks), son of Kana'an are many nations, of them the Ishban, the Zanj, and many people that multiplied in the Maghreb. (morocco)” Akbar al-Zaman 11th century Arabic text
^^^^ “Now the real fact, the fact which dispenses with all hypothesis, is this: the Berbers are the children of Canaan, the son of Ham, son of Noah. Their grandfather was named Mazyh...the Philistines children of Casluhim son of Misraim son of Ham were their relations...." Ibn Khaldun 15th century Andalusian North African.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
"And they carried off a great host of them [Mauritani] as captives to Erin, and these are the blue men [of Erin], for Mauri is the same as black man (Nigri), and Mauritania is the same as blackness. (Nigritudo)" the beginning of the reign of Fogartach| Fragmenta annalium hiberniae (Fragments of annals of Ireland) [869]
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by the questioner: "Mohr: a moor, a black, a blackamoor, a negro, an Ethiopian." The new and complete dictionary of the German and English languages ... By John Ebers 1798
So when people speak of the "Moorish Conquest of Spain" it means the Ethiopian Conquest of Spain
Ethiopians (Sudanese) were involved with the conquest so yes technically it could be interpreted as a Ethiopian invasion
but moor also means "negro"
Does it mean Negro or Ethiopian?
does fruit mean apple?
In German it means that both descriptors are the same and are exchangeable. The things is, you don't understand the German language, which is the root of Germanic languages.
"A negro, ethiop, maurus (moor)" Latin Dictionary: Morell's Abridgment By Robert Ainsworth, Alexander Jamieson
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
sedeone an montibus erro, dum mecum Garamas et adustus corpora Maurus dividit italas| "Am i to do nothing, or to move from height to height, while Garamantians and burnt skinned moors share Italy with me" 266-268 Punica VIII
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
^Nice sources.
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
^^^^ much appreciation
there are even more sources like the above
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
• “moorish faces of a horrible black color” | maura videbatur facies, nigro colore horrida|corippus, a byzantine writer in his book of johannidus I:245
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
• “and I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black skinned like the moors, but very white in body and fair-haired, so much, then, for these things.” Procopius: history of the wars, IV. Xiii. 29
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
The Moor
Posted by the questioner (Member # 22195) on :
All the Moorish soldiers were dressed with silk and black wool that had been forcibly acquired, their horse's reins were like fire, their black faces were like pitch and the most handsome of them was as black as a cooking pan. “Los moros de la hueste todos uestidos del sirgo et de los pannos de color que ganaran, las riendas de los sus cauallos tales eran como de fuego, las sus caras dellos negras como la pez, el mas fremoso dellos era negro como la olla" DEL DUELLO DE LOS GODOS DE ESPANNA ET DE LA RAZÓN PORQUE ELLA FUE DESTROYADA from the book Primera Crónica General, Alfonso X El Sabio pg 47
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