quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
I haven’t read the full study but I am getting so good at this I don’t need to .

---

quote:

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Originally posted by capra:
[Q]

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:
I haven’t read the full study but I am getting so good at this I don’t need to .

---

IOW, you're just going to make shit up, so why bother reading the text you'll ignore anyway.

The R1b-V88 in this study is R1b-Y8447 (note the position of the 1000 Genomes sample on the trees), it is not older than in Europe, which has R1b-M18 and R1b-V35 as well as other basal branches. Of course Africa is much less well sampled.

The only desperation is coming from you. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I guess you did not read it either. Now I have.

---

I read it last November when it actually came out, dumbass.

The split time between Eurasian and African R1b is the split between R1b-M269 and R1b-V88, look at the damn tree.

There are a total of 4 R1b-V88 samples used, three African from this sample and 1 Peruvian, the only one in the 1000 Genomes Project, which is almost certainly Jewish. There are no V88 samples from Europe or Asia included.

Exactly how many Middle Eastern samples were included in the Y chromosome analysis, xyyman? You should know this, having read the study.

quote:

---

African R1b is placed at 17-23K. European R1b is placed in the Neolithic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
I find
•f3 stat < -0.0025 has little significance
• it improbable Yoruba-like and over 50 different
Eurasian-like populations met mingled and mated in
either Chad or Ethiopia.

Where's any anthropology archaeology mythos
etc in support of something so absurd?

I don't think the checks they put in place to weed
out African genomes in the non-Africans did the job.

All it did was maybe weed out very recent African input.

The initial OoA genomes didn't poof all vacate the premises.

They remained in Africa with the Africans
who didn't go anywhere except other places
in Continental Africa.

I'm too dim to see any other way
• Pleistocene Ust Ishim and Oceanics
• pre-Holocene 1st Americans
• modern day Cochin Jews
all got it on with Yoruba and out popped
Tubu and Amhara.

I mean, show me two other studies with
• 165 Ref1 pops
• all with negative f stats
• and Z less than -4.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
I guess you did not read it either. Now I have.

Quote:
“We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of ****the Neolithic expansions****. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting
that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa”

explain this to me. And don’t let that VMAT1 gene get the better of you!

Also this.

“The Toubou, despite their Islamic faith, do not show the genetic admixture detected in many Near Eastern and North African populations around 1,100 ya”
“Eurasian backflow into Africa thus appears to have been a recurrent event in the history of many Africans, given itsconsiderable impact on their genomes”
“This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture”


---

What do you think MansaMusa? Anything sticking? Have I struck gold …again.

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quote:

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Nevertheless, Villabruna 1, more then the majority of his contemporaries, retains climatic adaptation typical of the ancestral African population.

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quote:

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These data suggest that while Villabruna 1 retains more ancestral condition indicative of African origin than its contemporaries, this specimen fits well in the microevolutionary process that affected European Upper Paleolithic populations leading to the progressive acquisition of body proportions typical of temperate regions.

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quote:

---

However, mitocondrial DNA analyses carried out on prehistoric human remains from this region highlighted in Villabruna 1 a sequence not observed in contemporary European populations (Di Benedetto et al., 2000), raising the possibility of genetic discontinuity between the last hunter-gatherers from the Alps and subsequent populations.

---

 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Capra. I know as a white man this can be frustrating but I am here to talk you off the ledge. Now! YOU read the paper. African R1b is placed at 17-23K. European R1b is placed in the Neolithic. They are assuming that the African R1b came from the middle East yet the middle east samples do NOT carry similar genetic signatures. Meaning that the middle East was NOT the source. You see how confused and bizarre Europeans are and how fuckged up they are mentally.

The VMAT1 gene at work?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
Again


The Tubu are Kanuri people.
Leave them be from Semitic Ethiopians.
Similarity of hair and shape of face be damned


So I will not speak of Tubu and Ethiopians in the same breath.

Every breeding population residing between other
populations are transitional, no?


Link me to Shriner's f3 table listing 150 Ref1 pops
and one Ref2 pop, please. It must be apples to apples
comparison. All 150 must have neg f stat and Z less
than -4.


Your last question takes e by surprise because I
assume students of African Studies have a ready
reference bookshelf for that.

Without an Africana background I'm afraid you may
be misled by the references I would give you. My
grounding in Rogers ben-Jochannan Diop Jackson
Osei Clarke Williams and journals like Black World
Ybird vanSertima all allow me to filter and fine
tune a book like Murdock1959 Ajayi1972 the UNESCO
and Cambridge histories or even Davidson.

In fact I would like you to hit the stacks and
bring me back something better than
Cline's Teda of Tibesti Borku and Kawar (GSA 12)
Nachtigal's Sahara and Sudan
or the once so popular specialized anthropology roadsides
.


And I have to thank you for some of the most
engaging discussion I've had on ES for years.
So let's not start agreeing with each other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
There's a shitload of significant f3 values because they included a shitload of different Eurasians and all Eurasians are related, so each can be a reference for the real ancestral population(s). That's all.

---

These reference populations are offsprings from the African.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Now Geneticists are pretending V88 (R1b1a2) is M269 in relation to the migration of the CHG and EF populations from Africa into Eurasia, These Africans, the Kushites who introduced archery, farming and cattle rearing to Eurasia.

Martiniano R, Cassidy LM, Ó'Maoldúin R, McLaughlin R, Silva NM, Manco L, et al. (2017) The population genomics of archaeological transition in west Iberia: Investigation of ancient substructure using imputation and haplotype-based methods. PLoS Genet 13(7): e1006852. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pgen.1006852

.
Abstract


Recent ancient DNA work has demonstrated the significant genetic impact of mass migrations from the Steppe into Central and Northern Europe during the transition from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age. In Iberia, archaeological change at the level of material culture and funerary rituals has been reported during this period, however, the genetic impact associated with this cultural transformation has not yet been estimated. In order to investigate this, we sequence Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Portugal, which we compare to other ancient and present-day individuals. Genome-wide imputation of a large dataset of ancient samples enabled sensitive methods for detecting population structure and selection in ancient samples. We revealed subtle genetic differentiation between the Portuguese Neolithic and Bronze Age samples suggesting a markedly reduced influx in Iberia compared to other European regions. Furthermore, we predict individual height in ancients, suggesting that stature was reduced in the Neolithic and affected by subsequent admixtures. Lastly, we examine signatures of strong selection in important traits and the timing of their origins.
.




The authors argue that the three Bronze Age individuals carrying R1b1a2, represent R-M269, but this is false they represent V88 and M18. Moreover, they fail to show discontinuity because, we find R1b1a (R-L754) carried by Villabruna, who lived 15kya in north-west Italy, and was a member of the Epigravettian culture. R-L754 has a high frequentcy among Africans.

V88 and the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype

Euronuts have no limit to their blatant and stealthily rewriting of history to "whiteout" Black and African people. The aDNA of the CHG and EF of Europe is R1b1a2. Although ISOGG 216 makes it clear this haplogroup is V88, in the research literature they are referring to this clade (R1b1a2) as R1b-P312/M269 , eventhough M269 is R1b1a1a2.

The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

when did this happen?

---

I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 


The presence of North African Neolithic mtDNA haplogroups H,X,U and K in Iberia support the early migration of Kushite hunter-gatherers into this region .
 

---

Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by xyyman:
Capra. I know as a white man this can be frustrating but I am here to talk you off the ledge. Now! YOU read the paper. African R1b is placed at 17-23K. European R1b is placed in the Neolithic. They are assuming that the African R1b came from the middle East yet the middle east samples do NOT carry similar genetic signatures. Meaning that the middle East was NOT the source. You see how confused and bizarre Europeans are and how fuckged up they are mentally.

The VMAT1 gene at work?

---

The idea of Middle East Africans carrying R1b into Europe is not so confusing when you study the history of the Niger-Congo speaking Kushites. The ancestors of the Kushites belonged to the Ounanian Culture (here). The Ounanians were hunter-gatherers that used bow and arrows and herded cattle, they founded Nabta Playa.



The IAM people [Early Neolithic Moroccans] (Fergel et al, 2017), were nothing more than hunter-gatherer Kushites that had originally belonged to the Ounanian Culture (Winters, 2012, 2017b). The Ounanians, like their Kushite descendants were great archers and based their civilization on hunting using the bow, and limited cattle domestication find out more at this web page .

In the Eastern Sahara many individual types of tanged and shouldered arrowheads occur on early Holocene prehistoric sites along with Green Saharan/Wavy-line pottery (Drake et al ,2010; Vernet et al, 2007) .
.



.

'Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic' wavy-line, dotted wavy line and walking-comb pottery was used from Lake Turkana to Nabta Playa, in Tibestim , Mauritania, on into in the Hoggar, in Niger. This pottery evolved into the Beaker Bell ceramics.

The Ounanian culture was not isolated in Africa. It was spread into the Levant. As a result, we have in the archaeological literature the name Ounan-Harif point. This name was proposed for the tanged points at Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba .



Harifian is a specialized regional cultural development of the Epipalaeolithic of the Negev Desert. Harifian has close connections with the late Mesolithic cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Deserts of Egypt, whose tool assemblage resembles that of the Harifian.

The tangled Ounanian points are also found at Foum Arguin . These points were used from Oued Draa, in southern Morocco, to the Banc d’Arguin and from the Atlantic shore to the lowlands of northwestern Sahara in Mauritania . We now have DNA from Ounanian sites in Morocco.


All the burials in Ifri n’Amr o’Moussa site IAM1-IAM7 , are devoid of any artifacts, except for an original funeral ritual, which consists of placing a millstone on the skull (5) . These burials were dated from 4,850 to 5,250 BCE, they carried U6, M1, T2, X and K (Fregel et al, 2017). This suggest that Africans were already carrying this mtDNA.

The spread of the Ounanians to Harif in the Levant explains the presence of these Kushite clades in the Levant and Anatolia. It also explains how the Bell Beaker/Kushites took their pottery and cattle from Anatolia into the Steppes on into Iberia, where they joined hunter-gatherer Kushites who had settled Iberia several millennia before them.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

when did this happen?

---

I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

when did this happen?

---

I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.

---

So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

---

.




.The people who lived in Europe at this time were the Khoisan and Pygmies (Anu). The Khoisan and Pygmies carried R1. It was the Khoisan who probably deposited R1 in Siberia. Villabruna man , who lived 15kya in north-west Italy, who carried R1b1a--a member of the Epigravettian culture was probably a Khoisan.

You did not read my post. The ancestors of the Kushites (Niger-Congo speakers) were the Ounanians. The first civilization founded by these Niger-Congo speakers was Maa.

I call these people Proto-Saharans . In the history of mankind they were called the Kushites.

Testimony of the great heritage of the Kushites, resulted from their boldness in trade and seafaring expeditions. The authors of ancient Indian literature claimed that the Kushites ruled the world for 7000 years. According to Epiphanies, the age of the Kushites extended from the Flood to the age of Terah, the father of Abraham, the prophet of the Jews and Muslims.

After the Sahara-Sahel became more arid they formed the Kushite Empire. The origin of the Kushites from the Ounanian culture, would explain why the Vedic literature claims the Kushites ruled 7000 years
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Peştera cu Oase, Romania.



Neanderthals are thought to have disappeared in Europe ~39,000–41,000 years ago but they have contributed one to three percent of the DNA of present-day people in Eurasia1. Here, we analyze DNA from a 37,000–42,000-year-old2 modern human from Peştera cu Oase, Romania.

We find that on the order of six to nine percent of the genome of the Oase individual is derived from Neanderthals, more than any other modern human sequenced to date. Three chromosomal segments of Neanderthal ancestry are over 50 centimorgans in size, indicating that this individual had a Neanderthal ancestor as recently as four to six generations back. However, the Oase individual does not share more alleles with later Europeans than with East Asians, suggesting that the Oase population did not contribute substantially to later humans in Europe.

Oase DNA

YDNA K2a* has been found only in the remains of two Paleolithic individuals from Siberia and Eastern Europe, while K2a1* has been found only in living individuals from India and South East Asia.
K2* (M526) has been found in an estimated 27% of indigenous Australians
Oase-1 belongs to a basal subclade of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N.


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


You did not read my post. The ancestors of the Kushites (Niger-Congo speakers) were the Ounanians. The first civilization founded by these Niger-Congo speakers was Maa.

I call these people Proto-Saharans . In the history of mankind they were called the Kushites.

Testimony of the great heritage of the Kushites, resulted from their boldness in trade and seafaring expeditions.


The authors of ancient Indian literature claimed that the Kushites ruled the world for 7000 years. According to Epiphanies, the age of the Kushites extended from the Flood to the age of Terah, the father of Abraham, the prophet of the Jews and Muslims.

After the Sahara-Sahel became more arid they formed the Kushite Empire. The origin of the Kushites from the Ounanian culture, would explain why the Vedic literature claims the Kushites ruled 7000 years [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


You did not read my post. The ancestors of the Kushites (Niger-Congo speakers) were the Ounanians. The first civilization founded by these Niger-Congo speakers was Maa.

I call these people Proto-Saharans . In the history of mankind they were called the Kushites.

Testimony of the great heritage of the Kushites, resulted from their boldness in trade and seafaring expeditions.


The authors of ancient Indian literature claimed that the Kushites ruled the world for 7000 years. According to Epiphanies, the age of the Kushites extended from the Flood to the age of Terah, the father of Abraham, the prophet of the Jews and Muslims.

After the Sahara-Sahel became more arid they formed the Kushite Empire. The origin of the Kushites from the Ounanian culture, would explain why the Vedic literature claims the Kushites ruled 7000 years

---

The Hindu Kush or Kushan Empire of the mountain range near the Afghan-Pakistan border

has nothing to do with

the KIngdom of Kush that was in Sudan

The art has little similarity nor the DNA in these regions. Obviously the people are of different ethnicity. The people of the Hindu Kush were described by Herodotus as straight haired as they are today, while the Ethiopians described as the most woolly-haired of all people

It is merely a similar sounding word, so you have been wrong for many years [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Peştera cu Oase, Romania.



Neanderthals are thought to have disappeared in Europe ~39,000–41,000 years ago but they have contributed one to three percent of the DNA of present-day people in Eurasia1. Here, we analyze DNA from a 37,000–42,000-year-old2 modern human from Peştera cu Oase, Romania.

We find that on the order of six to nine percent of the genome of the Oase individual is derived from Neanderthals, more than any other modern human sequenced to date. Three chromosomal segments of Neanderthal ancestry are over 50 centimorgans in size, indicating that this individual had a Neanderthal ancestor as recently as four to six generations back. However, the Oase individual does not share more alleles with later Europeans than with East Asians, suggesting that the Oase population did not contribute substantially to later humans in Europe.

Oase DNA

YDNA K2a* has been found only in the remains of two Paleolithic individuals from Siberia and Eastern Europe, while K2a1* has been found only in living individuals from India and South East Asia.
K2* (M526) has been found in an estimated 27% of indigenous Australians
Oase-1 belongs to a basal subclade of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup N.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

when did this happen?

---

I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.

---

So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

---

Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

when did this happen?

---

I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.

---

So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

---

Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

This is what makes the discovery of haplogroup K , among the Neolithic North Africans most interesting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

Moreover, I have argued on this site and in published articles that the Khoisan took the N clade to Eurasia.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by xyyman:

----
Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations.

Abstract
Understanding human genetic diversity in Africa is important for interpreting the evolution of all humans, yet vast regions in Africa, such as Chad, remain genetically poorly investigated. Here, we use genotype data from 480 samples from Chad, the Near East, and southern Europe, as well as whole-genome sequencing from 19 of them, to show that many populations today derive their genomes from ancient African-Eurasian admixtures. We found evidence of early Eurasian backflow to Africa in people speaking the unclassified isolate Laal language in southern Chad and estimate from linkage-disequilibrium decay that this occurred 4,750-7,200 years ago. It brought to Africa a Y chromosome lineage (R1b-V88) whose closest relatives are widespread in present-day Eurasia; we estimate from sequence data that the Chad R1b-V88 Y chromosomes coalesced 5,700-7,300 years ago. This migration could thus have originated among Near Eastern farmers during the African Humid Period. We also found that the previously documented Eurasian backflow into Africa, which occurred ∼3,000 years ago and was thought to be mostly limited to East Africa, had a more westward impact affecting populations in northern Chad, such as the Toubou, who have 20%-30% Eurasian ancestry today. We observed a decline in heterozygosity in admixed Africans and found that the Eurasian admixture can bias inferences on their coalescent history and confound genetic signals from adaptation and archaic introgression. [/QB]

---

^ more:


Multiple Eurasian Admixtures in Africa after 6,000 ya
We have previously reported massive gene flow ∼3,000 ya from Eurasians to Ethiopian populations.4 Here, we reassess the presence of Eurasian ancestry in Africa by using f3 statistics25 in the form of f3(X; Eurasian, Yoruba), where a negative value with a Z score < −4 indicates that X is a mixture of Africans and Eurasians. We found, as expected, that most Ethiopians are a mixture of Africans and Eurasians. An exception is the Gumuz population, where f3(Gumuz; Eurasian, Yoruba) is always positive. The Gumuz language belongs to the Nilo-Saharan family, which could have isolated the Gumuz from the Afro-Asiatic-speaking Ethiopians.

____________]

We tested the Greek, Lebanese, CEU, and CHB (Han Chinese in Beijing, China) split times from the Yoruba and found that all populations split from the Yoruba ∼70,000–80,000 ya, implying that the low proportions of African admixture in the Greeks and Lebanese did not detectably affect the estimates of relative cross-coalescence rate (Figure S6A). We next tested the Toubou, who have ∼30% Eurasian ancestry. The Toubou appeared to split from Eurasians ∼30,000–40,000 ya, a time more recent than expected considering the African-Eurasian split 60,000–80,000 ya

we found in Chad a Eurasian Y chromosome lineage (Y haplogroup R1b-V88) that had penetrated all Chadian populations examined but was absent or rare from the Ethiopians examined (Table S4; Figure S1). From whole Y chromosome sequences (Figure S2), we estimate that the Chadian R1b-V88 chromosomes sampled emerged 5,700–7,300 ya (Figure 3B), a time comparable to the Laal speaker admixture dates (4,750–7,200 ya) estimated from genome-wide LD-decay patterns.


The first event occurred 2,850–3,500 ya (Z score = 11), a time close to the date of mixture in East Africans 2,500–2,700 ya (Z score = 26). The second mixture event occurred much more recently at 170–260 ya (Z score = 5). In southern Chad, we detected mixture events that were more ancient than those in the north. Mixture occurred 3,900–4,800 ya (Z score = 10) in the Sara and 4,750–7,200 ya (Z score = 5) in the Laal speakers (Figure 3A). These time estimates overlap, and we interpret them as signals from the same admixture event,


We found that, in addition to influencing the relative cross-coalescence rate, admixture can also inflate putative signals of positive selection. For example, using the PBS31 to detect recent positive selection that occurred in the Toubou after their divergence from the Yoruba, we found signals of selection on MCM6 (MIM: 601806) rs4988235, a variant associated with the lactase-persistence phenotype. This SNP was previously found to be under strong positive selection in Europeans, where it was probably advantageous to individuals living in pastoralist societies.34 The frequency of this variant in the Toubou is 2%, and it is absent from the sub-Saharan African and other Chadic samples (the Sara and Laal speakers) examined here. Although this SNP appears to be a candidate for selection, we suggest that it has probably drifted neutrally in the Toubou after the Eurasian gene flow: the Toubou have ∼30% Eurasian ancestry from a population similar to the Greeks, who have 13% derived alleles at rs4988235, suggesting an expectation of ∼3.9% of the derived allele simply from admixture.


We detected the earliest Eurasian migrations to Africa in the Laal-speaking people, an isolated language group of fewer than 800 speakers who inhabit southern Chad. We estimate that mixture occurred 4,750–7,200 ya, thus after the Neolithic transition in the Near East, a period characterized by exponential growth in human population size. Environmental changes during this period (which possibly triggered the Neolithic transition) also facilitated human migrations. The African Humid Period, for example, was a humid phase across North Africa that peaked 6,000–9,000 ya37 and biogeographically connected Africa to Eurasia, facilitating human movement across these regions.38 In Chad, we found a Y chromosome lineage (R1b-V88) that we estimate emerged during the same period 5,700–7,300 ya (Figure 3B). The closest related Y chromosome groups today are widespread in Eurasia and have been previously associated with human expansions to Europe.39,40 We estimate that the Eurasian R1b lineages initially diverged 7,300–9,400 ya, at the time of the Neolithic expansions. However, we found that the African and Eurasian R1b lineages diverged 17,900–23,000 ya, suggesting that genetic structure was already established between the groups who expanded to Europe and Africa. R1b-V88 was previously found in Central and West Africa and was associated with a mid-Holocene migration of Afro-asiatic speakers through the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin.8 In the populations we examined, we found R1b in the Toubou and Sara, who speak Nilo-Saharan languages, and also in the Laal people, who speak an unclassified language. This suggests that R1b penetrated Africa independently of the Afro-asiatic language spread or passed to other groups through admixture.
In addition to the early Eurasian migration to Africa ∼6,000 ya, a second migration ∼3,000 ya affected the Toubou population in northern Chad but had no detectable genetic impact on other Chadian populations. This migration appears to be associated with the previously reported Eurasian backflow into East Africa, given that the source populations and dates of mixture are similar. Occurring at the start of the Iron Age, these migrations could have been facilitated by advances in warfare and transportation technology in the Near East. It is uncertain why the impact of this migration in Chad affected only the Toubou.

The Toubou, despite their Islamic faith, do not show the genetic admixture detected in many Near Eastern and North African populations around 1,100 ya,41 suggesting conversion without population mixing at this time. They did, however, receive additional Eurasian ancestry in the past 200 years from a source represented by North African populations such as Tunisians, Mozabite, Algerians, and Sahrawi (Figure 3C). This recent interaction could have been promoted by the nomadic lifestyle of the present-day Toubou and a shared Muslim religion with North Africans. Unsurprisingly, we also detected a likely mixing of Chad populations in the sample from the capital, which could be even more recent.


we detected Neanderthal ancestry in admixed Africans and found it to be proportional to their Eurasian ancestry. Similarly, in admixed Near Easterners, we found a decrease in Neanderthal ancestry proportional to the gene flow they have received from Africans


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Note: in this article in Table S4 as well as in Figure S1 (not pictured) they identify R-V88 as R1b1a-L761

__________________________________________________

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929716304487-mmc1.pdf

Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations.


we found in Chad a Eurasian Y chromosome lineage (Y haplogroup R1b-V88) that had
penetrated all Chadian populations examined but was absent or rare from the Ethiopians examined (Table S4; Figure S1).



 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

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when did this happen?

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I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.

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So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

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Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

there is 100 years of archaeological research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC to 1492 AD. 1492 was when the Moors were forced from Iberia.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
Note: in this article in Table S4 as well as in Figure S1 (not pictured) they identify R-V88 as R1b1a-L761

__________________________________________________

http://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0002929716304487-mmc1.pdf

Chad Genetic Diversity Reveals an African History Marked by Multiple Holocene Eurasian Migrations.


we found in Chad a Eurasian Y chromosome lineage (Y haplogroup R1b-V88) that had
penetrated all Chadian populations examined but was absent or rare from the Ethiopians examined (Table S4; Figure S1).

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
what's bs? you have quoted a chart with the Hap frequencies not any statement about back migration

and as for back migration you have already stated there was migration between Iberia and Africa

- so how would you know in what direction it was?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across a wide geographic area from
Iberia, eastward to Germany and Samara. This would place carriers of relatives of V88 among the
Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic
Europe suggest that, the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya people were Africans, not Indo-Europeans, because
these cultural complexes and the people who practiced these cultures originated in Africa.


See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf


In this paper I cite at least 20 articles supporting the African settlement of Europe.

Now it's your turn cite at least one article that cites a back migration from Iberia to Africa supported by archaeological evidence, before Kushites had already settled Europe.
. [/QB]

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Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

^^ I see you have this chart in your article.
Funny thing is that I made that chart as a joke. That's my handy work

I need to be properly credited for that in your references

Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The V88 sub-clade, had relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across a wide geographic area from
Iberia, eastward to Germany and Samara. This would place carriers of relatives of V88 among the
Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people. Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic
Europe suggest that, the Bell Beaker and Yamnaya people were Africans, not Indo-Europeans, because
these cultural complexes and the people who practiced these cultures originated in Africa.


See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf


In this paper I cite at least 20 articles supporting the African settlement of Europe.

Now it's your turn cite at least one article that cites a back migration from Iberia to Africa supported by archaeological evidence, before Kushites had already settled Europe.
.

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Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

^^ I see you have this chart in your article.
Funny thing is that I made that chart as a joke. That's my handy work

I need to be properly credited for that in your references

Figure 1 "Lioness Productions" [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The map represents the two migrations of Kushite carriers of R1b into Eurasia and its advance across Europe.

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Don't tell me what the map represents I made it !!!

It's the wiki R1b map and I added the blue arrows and text

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b



Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

Does the root of the blue arrows emanate from the Kingdom Of Kush that was in Sudan ?
No silly rabbit , from Cameroon
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The map represents the two migrations of Kushite carriers of R1b into Eurasia and its advance across Europe.

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Don't tell me what the map represents I made it !!!

It's the wiki R1b map and I added the blue arrows and text

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b



Figure 1 "Lioness Productions"

Does the root of the blue arrows emanate from the Kingdom Of Kush that was in Sudan ?
No silly rabbit , from Cameroon

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Cameroon was part of the Maa civlization. It was from these area that the kushites/ Proto-Saharans migrated into the Nile Valley and Eurasia.

Stop making stupid comments you know that the vast majority of people in West Africa today came from North Africa , Levant, Sahel and Nile Valley.


.
The Sumerians came from Middle Africa, they belonged to the Maa Confederation.
.


.
The Sumerians were part of the Proto-Saharan civilization and spread to Mesopotamia after 3000 BC. The Sumerians spoke a language related to the Niger-Congo group and Dravidians. The Sumerians traded with Magan (Egypt) and Meluha (Punt/Northeast Africa).

The Sumerians made it clear they were Kushites and called their Kings, the "Kings of Kish".
.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
There was no "Maa Confederation" You made that up

That's making up stuff, you agreed you would stop doing that
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
Fertile African Crescent
.

.

.


.
Much of what we call African civilization developed in Africa during the African Aqualithic. During this period in the Fertile African Crescent these folk have left beautiful drawings which illustrate their way of life in Tassilli n'Ajjer, and the northern foothills of the Hoggar massif. I call the population that lived in the Fertile African Crescent: Proto-Saharans.


During the African Aqualithic, there was higher rainfall in Africa which made the rivers longer and more permanent. This caused rivers to swell and burst over there basins. The people used wavy line pottery. They also invented agriculture and domesticated many animals.

In ancient times a wonderful civilization existed in the Highland regions of Middle Africa. In this wonderful civilization 6000 years ago lived the ancestors of the Dravidians, Black Africans, Elamites and the Sumerians. Today we call this Proto-Saharan civilization the "Fertile African Crescent", because the highland regions in which the Proto-Saharans l lived formed a crescent shape across the Saharan region of middle Africa.


The historic gods of Africa and Asia were of Proto-Saharan origin.Concepts concerning these ancient gods or great ancestors were first developed around a gigantic lake that formerly existed in Middle Africa around 8000 years ago. This is supported by the fact that the Saharan cultures have resemblances to those of Nubia. This lake was known in ancient times as Lake Tritonis.


Lake Tritonis was situated in the Libyan desert. Here as early as 7000 B.C., there was a slow transition from hunting , to cattle pastoralism. The prehistoric appearance of a great lake in Libya has recently been supported by satellite pictures of the Eastern Desert which indicate that a lake was located in the Qattara depression of northwest Egypt.


Pastoralism and fishing preceded food production in the ancient Sahara. It appears that a hunter-fisher-gatherer group which clearly specialized in the hunting of animals (as evidenced by the arrowheads) became animal herders, since they were keenly aware of the habits of game and therefore made the shift from hunter-fisher-gatherer to animal husbandry rapidly once climatic conditions in the Sahara made it impossible to collect grains.


Moderate climatic conditions made it possible for the Proto-Saharans to engage in intensive plant domestication. Food surpluses led to the rise of towns and cities, complex political organization. social ranking of individuals in society, and craft specialization as certain clans and ethnic groups became more sedentary.


The linguistic evidence indicates that the Proto-Saharans practiced a form of intensive agriculture characterized by the use of the hoe, related water storage and irrigation techniques plus the application of fertilizers to the cultivated land.


The ability to produce surplus food led to an increase in population, changes in social organization and class distinctions. Naturally, population increases forced the ancestors of the Proto-Saharans to spill over into more marginal areas. This population pressure probably forced many Proto-Saharan clans to domesticate plants and animals to preserve traditional levels of food production.


AGRICULTURAL DOMESTICATION


Agriculture has long been practiced in Nubia. The most ancient grasses collected in Africa were found in Nubia. Here barley and sorghum was collected. As early as 17,000 B.C., barley was being cultivated at Tushka. These farmers were probably the Anu.


One of the most ancient sites for agricultural domestication in Nubia or the Central Sudan, was discovered at Es Shaheinab dating to 4000 B.C. Here riverine folk bred goats and sheep. They also engaged in fishing and collected grasses.


Kadero is another ancient site of agriculture in Sudan. Here as early as 3310 B.C., sorghum and millet were being cultivated/ collected.


Other African grasses domesticated outside of the Nile area include guinea corn, bulrush millet and fonio. The earliest evidence of bulrush millet dates to 1200 B.C., and comes from Mauritania. By 3000 B.C. rice was being cultivated.


Formerly it was believed that the Niger Valley was a center of plant domestication. The earliest northwest African sites for agriculture include Dar Tichitt Daima ,Kurrasakata and Karkarchinkat which date to around 2000 B.C. Today archaeological research indicates that much of the Niger area was thick forest until quite recently. (Winters 1986) It would appear that the present inhabitants of West Africa came from the North and the Nile Valley.


The Proto-Saharans claimed descent from the Maa or Fish Confederation. The Maa Confederation includes the Egyptians, Elamites, Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians. In honor of the great ancestor: Maa, they worshipped a god called: Amun, Amon, or Amma. In honor of this great ancestor the descendants of the Proto-Saharans use the term Ma, to denote greatness or highness, e.g., Manding " Maga" and Dravidian Ma. Other Proto-Saharan tribes claimed direct descent from the great Maa, founder of the Fish Confederation. For example, the Manding call themselves Ma-nde: children of Ma, while the Sumerians were called Ma-Gar-ri (exalted God's children).


The Proto-Saharans share place names. Evidence for shared place names has been discovered by Dr. Vamos-Toth Bator. Dr. Vamos-Toth Bator, calls this ancient civilization ---root culture-- Tamana. The term Tamana can be interpreted in the Manding and Dravidian language as "Strongplace","Stronghold" or "Original Settlement". The term Tamana is one of over 1,000,000 place names Dr. Vamos-Toth has found which link Africa, Asia, and Europe.


The term Tamana, was a popular place name for the Proto-Saharans, as they expanded out of the nuclear Proto-Saharan region, to signify a colonial city or trade center established among hostile alien tribes.


The Proto-Saharans also had their own writing system. This writing system was used by the Dravidians in the Indus Valley, the Manding in the Western Sahara, and the Egyptians.


The ancient Proto-Saharan script was a logo syllabic system. The words used to write this script were monosyllabic. The first script used by the Proto-Saharans in the Fertile African Crescent was Thinite.


Religion

Around 10000 years ago pluvial conditions existed in the Sahara which led to the creation of numerous river beds now buried under tons of sand. Due to the abundance of streams, rivers and lakes in Proto-Saharan Africa men who were powerful, were men who could harness the powerful water of the numerous streams and rivers. Such men as these were recognized as demigods or great ancestors. For example in Sumer and Egypt gods and demigods were described as "reed-boat navigators". In Egypt some of these great men that became gods include Thoth, and Osiris.


According to the Olympian Creation Myth the earliest groups to appear on earth were the Libyco-Thracians. The Libyans were Proto-Saharans, as were the original Thracians, who were descendants of the Kushite and Egyptian troops established at Trace , by Sesostris (Thutmose III or Ramses II),when he conquered Asia and Europe.


Apollonius Rhodius tells us that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya. The goddess Athene, was called Neith by the Egyptians and Nia, by the Manding and Eteo-Cretans of Minoan civilization.


The early gods of these Proto-Saharans included a serpent, the sun: Hercules, Amon/Aman/Amma, and Kush or Khons. In Egypt and Kush, both Amon and Khons were depicted as coal-black in accordance with tradition. The Kushites also worshipped a "lord of the mountains", which is analogous to Murugan, a Dravidian god in India. In India, Khrisna, Mal ,Vishnu, and Kali were usually depicted as black in color. Kali, was held to be a form of Paravati, consort of Siva. In addition the Dravidian god of the pastoral region:Mullai, was the black god Mayan, who was beloved by the milkmaids and cattle herders.


The earliest gods associated with the great hidden all powerful god were associated with the Sky. They believed in an unseen universal force called "Ko " or " Ka". As a result the Proto-Saharans offered prayers to "Ka", e.g., Egyptian Ka 'vital force', Dravidian Ka-n, Manding Kani, and Magyar/Hungarian kaan. This Ka, is also often associated with snakes,rain and the sky.


THE GOD MAA


Many of the Proto-Saharan beliefs originated during the wet African Aqualithic period. As a result their gods, who had once been great ancestors were referred to as "Fish" or "reed-boat navigators". This common god was called Maa , the man fish (of Eridu) in Mesopotamia and Syria and the ithyphallic forms, the prototype of Amon/Aman in Egypt ; and the goddess Minaksi, of Madura in South India the goddess of the fish eyes, the Malabar fish bearer of Mana and the sacred fishes of the Mapilla of the west coast of the Dekkan. In the languages of the Manding Maa, is used to refer to the ancient inhabitants of the African continent, and the invisible spirit who inhabits the water courses.In Egypt Maat, meant divine truth and justice.


Among the Proto-Saharans the name Maa, for their great ancestor/god was joined to many ethnonyms. The descendants of the Maa clan, claim descent from Maa, as evident in the name Mande, for the parent group of the Manding of West Africa. Mande means, Ma-nde or "children of Ma". Some Dravidians of South India were also members of the Mande Superclan, as illustrated in the Kannada, Telugu and Tulu, Dravidian tribes that use the terms Mande or Mandi to denote "people or persons". The Sumerians called themselves Mah-Gar-ri "God's exalted children".


The Proto-Saharans in honor of great Maa, use the term "ma", to denote greatness, for example Manding: Maga; Sumerian: Mag; and Dravidian: Ma.The ma, element was also used in the names for their rulers e.g., Menes of Egypt; the Mannan of the Dravidians; and the Mansa of the Manding.


The Mal, of the Dravidians is just another form of Ma. Mal, is the Fish. He was the prototype of the Fish god among the Pandyan-Tamils. Ama, Uma, Ammon, Amon, and etc. seems to either refer to Mal's consort.


This goddess Amon is most ancient among the Proto-Saharans.This goddess has many names including Athene or Neith, daughter of Poseidon god of the Sea (again reference to the great Fish-man); and Demeter, the mare headed patroness.


The Mother goddess Amma/Amon of Libya had her cult center at the Oasis of Siwa. In ancient Egypt Amon was depicted as a ram with spheres. The god Amon was taken to Egypt during the New Kingdom.


The Proto-Saharans early used the oxen with sun disc between the horns as the symbol of their God, long before the Egyptians worshipped Hathor. This god represented Amon/Amma of the Dravidians, Egyptians and Manding speaking people.


Engravings in the Sahara, dating back to Neolithic times show the solar disk with "uraei", which was associated with the worship of Ra/Re in Egypt, when worn by the ram it represented Amon of Thebes. There are depictions of this god from the Saharan sites such as Bou Alam and Zenoga. Archaeologists believe that these engravings date back to 4000 BC. This use of a ram god, with different names among the various groups indicate that the Proto-Saharans worshipped the same religion.For example among the Dogon of West Africa, the god Amma is a ram. In Yoruba Amon, means concealed the same as in Egyptian."


This worship of the ram may have resulted from the important part goat/sheep played in the Sahara as a source of food when the Sahara increasingly became more arid.


It is interesting to note that Siwa (> Siva?), was recognized as the cult center of Amon/Amma, because in the Siwa depression archaeologists have found numerous conical and pyramidal sand encrusted hills that resemble the monuments of ancient Egypt, including a sphinx which resembles a gigantic ram. Although most scholars believe these monuments in the Siwa and Farafra Oasis are natural erosional formations called yardangs, they may really be the remains of monuments built by the Proto-Saharans now encrusted with sand harden by the wind.


The mother goddess was either identified as Amon or Athene. Amon or Amen of the Egyptians was primarily a Theban god whose shrine was rebuilt around 2500 BC, when the Theban Kings defeated their northern foes. Amon became an important god in Egypt beginning with the 12th Dynasty . The priests of Amon, called their god "the King of Gods". The Egyptians recognized Amon as a primeval god. Amon is identified with the ithyphalli god Men( Maa ?)


Amon was recognized as an unseen god, because he could travel. He was also seen as an imperial god. Sesostris I, is credited with building the Temple of Amon at Karnak, near Thebes. Sesostris I, is also credited with conquering the whole sea coast of India, beyond the Ganges to the Eastern Ocean, he also conquered Europe as far as Thrace.


It is clear that Amon or Amen, was the ancient god of the Kushites/Proto-Saharans because Ammenemes I or Ameny I of the 11th Dynasty was from the southern state of Ta-Seti, the first Nome (city/state) of Egypt. Ammenemes means "Amon is in front".


Sesostris I (Thutmose I), probably helped establish Amon worship in Europe and Asia , because as he expanded his Empire he left colonies in all the lands he conquered. Sesostrasen Osiritasen of the 12th Dynasty, is suppose to have established colonies along the Danube river and the Black Sea. Strabo (Bk.3), said that Sesostris I, is suppose to have conquered Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Iberia and Colchis.


Before the Egyptians conquered Greece the worship of Amon had already been established in the region. It was the Garamante Manding speaking tribe who took Amon worship to Greece. In Appollonius Rhodius iv.1310, we discover that the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya. Plato, identified Athene of Athens with the Libyan god Neith. Athene was worshipped by the Manding and other Western Saharans including the Linear A people of Minoan Crete. Athene is always associated with the god Amon. Moreover the Manding concept of N'ama as a dynamic spirit among the other Mande tribes point to an earlier worship of Amon, before the Mande accepted Islam. The Bambara call their ancestral god Gnia or Nia, this has affinity to the Greek term for the Libyan god called Neith. It is interesting to note that in the Linear A inscriptions we find mention of the goddess Nia= Neith. Moreover, some South Indian worship Amma = Amon. The priest of this cult are called Chom or Khonrini, the Greeks called them Gymnosophists. This Chom, of the Dravidians has affinity to Khon, the leading Kushite god.


The goddess Neith or Athene was known by many names. Some names related to Athene include Anaitis, Nanaia > Tanit of the Phoenicians; Nama in Albania; and the Sumero-Dravidian Ninni-Istar "the wild cow".


The Proto-Dravidians and Sumerians had common religions. For example in the Sumer pantheon the emblem for Inanna, was the date palm, while Ninsun, Dumuzi, Anu and Ishkur were associated with bulls. The Dravidian equivalent to Anu, or bull worship was Anu-Rupa or Siva. The name of this clan in India was called Anu. Many of these Dravidians were also established in Armenia.


In India we find the "men with horns". This term was given to Dravidian dignitaries who had crowns made of animal horns. This type of horned figure appear on many Harappan seals, as do serpents. The wearing of animal horns on crowns may date back to the time of Sesostris, because many Egyptian headdresses included horns.


In ancient Sumer, the goddess of the marriage rites was Ur. The goddess Ur, has analogies to the Dravidian cult of the goddess Paravati, in Siva temples.


The Sumerian god Dumuzi, may be a great ancestor of the Tamil. Prof. Muttarayan has suggested that the word Tamil, may be an evolute of Dumuzi, the name for the Sumerian moon-god. Originally Tammuz/Damuzi was supposedly a king of Uruk. According to Sumerian tradition Dumuzi lived in the neither world.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^ This has 23 examples of made up stuff
 

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Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
Clyde's alternate history fiction really needs more plot and less repetition.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Clyde missed out on a career as a novelist
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The idea of Middle East Africans carrying R1b into Europe is not so confusing when you study the history of the Niger-Congo speaking Kushites. The ancestors of the Kushites belonged to the Ounanian Culture (here). The Ounanians were hunter-gatherers that used bow and arrows and herded cattle, they founded Nabta Playa.



The IAM people [Early Neolithic Moroccans] (Fergel et al, 2017), were nothing more than hunter-gatherer Kushites that had originally belonged to the Ounanian Culture (Winters, 2012, 2017b). The Ounanians, like their Kushite descendants were great archers and based their civilization on hunting using the bow, and limited cattle domestication find out more at this web page .

In the Eastern Sahara many individual types of tanged and shouldered arrowheads occur on early Holocene prehistoric sites along with Green Saharan/Wavy-line pottery (Drake et al ,2010; Vernet et al, 2007) .
.



.

'Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic' wavy-line, dotted wavy line and walking-comb pottery was used from Lake Turkana to Nabta Playa, in Tibestim , Mauritania, on into in the Hoggar, in Niger. This pottery evolved into the Beaker Bell ceramics.

The Ounanian culture was not isolated in Africa. It was spread into the Levant. As a result, we have in the archaeological literature the name Ounan-Harif point. This name was proposed for the tanged points at Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba .



Harifian is a specialized regional cultural development of the Epipalaeolithic of the Negev Desert. Harifian has close connections with the late Mesolithic cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Deserts of Egypt, whose tool assemblage resembles that of the Harifian.

The tangled Ounanian points are also found at Foum Arguin . These points were used from Oued Draa, in southern Morocco, to the Banc d’Arguin and from the Atlantic shore to the lowlands of northwestern Sahara in Mauritania . We now have DNA from Ounanian sites in Morocco.


All the burials in Ifri n’Amr o’Moussa site IAM1-IAM7 , are devoid of any artifacts, except for an original funeral ritual, which consists of placing a millstone on the skull (5) . These burials were dated from 4,850 to 5,250 BCE, they carried U6, M1, T2, X and K (Fregel et al, 2017). This suggest that Africans were already carrying this mtDNA.

The spread of the Ounanians to Harif in the Levant explains the presence of these Kushite clades in the Levant and Anatolia. It also explains how the Bell Beaker/Kushites took their pottery and cattle from Anatolia into the Steppes on into Iberia, where they joined hunter-gatherer Kushites who had settled Iberia several millennia before them.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

there is 100 years of archaeological research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

there is 100 years of archaeological research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC

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name one page from a book that says that

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
So there's 100 years of research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC but no books

quote one paragraph from a research article that says the origin of Iberian culture is Africa from 44k BC

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quote:

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There were numerous out of Africa exits into Iberia. The African migrants introduced into Europe, the
Aurignacian, Solutrean, Bell Beaker/Corded ware and Moorish cultures between 44,000 BC and 1492
AD. These Sub-Saharan populations belonged to the Black Variety

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
So theres 100 years of research articles that place the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC but the only one you could quote was your own article??? Hilarious

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quote:

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“The civilizations of the Languedoc (in the South of France), and even the Swiss civilization of Cortaillod, on the shores of the lake of Neuchatel, appear to be the daughters of these ancient Iberic civilizations of African origin The cardial ceramic, which is found in Sicily and of which the decorative designs have long subsisted in Iberia, presents great similarities with the incised ceramic of the upper valley of the Nile as far as the Sudan. The Iberic neolithic civilization has had also close relations with the Tunisian neolithic civilization of Capsian tradition (hence the name ‘ Hispano-Mauritanic * given to the incised Iberic ceramic).”(p.10) Note 7, page 10 associated with this passage:

quote:

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For the N African influences on the islands of the Mediterranean and on Southern Spain, see also O Serra, Appunti suli’ elements punico a lihico helV onomastica Sarda, Vox Romanica, 19S3, 13 and Sostratos Mediterraneos , Rev de Filol Esp XL, 1956, pp 171- 20 8. For the Semitic influence see also the older, but still valuable work of H Lewy, JDie Semitischen Eremdwbrter in Gnechischen Berlm, 1895

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“On the European shores and islands of the western and central Mediterranean, the first neolithic civilization is that of the incised pottery This culture, though also derived from the Near East, and more precisely, according to B Brea, from Syria and S E Anatolia, came to Europe by way of Sicily and Malta after a long stage m N Africa.

This civilization brings to Europe many elements of the predynastic Egyptian civilization of Amrat, and, doubtless, also Hamitic linguistic influences of which many important traces have survived to our day m the Celtic of the British Isles, as well as in Basque .From this type of culture derive, apparently, the civilizations of Windmill Hill in the South of England , of Stentinello in Sicily , ancient Cortaillod in Switzerland, El Garcel in Spain, and of Camp de Chassey in France But the Hispano-Maurussian civilization, on the other hand, according to Prof J M Santa Olalla and Prof 'Stekelis, has its first origins in Palestine where we find its essential characteristics 2000 years earlier “(p.14)

“About 3200-2900, an important series of migrations from North Africa brought African cultures to Iberia with their arts, which explains the relationship between the Indian and Iberic civilizations of this period as they had a common source.” (p.17)

“The excavations of Magara Sauar m the former Spanish zone of Morocco carried out by Prof Martmez Santa Olalla have thrown much light on the relations between the first bronze civilizations of Spain and those of N Africa”(p.18)

“In Italy, recent archaeological research, like the important excavations of Arene Candide, brought to an end since the last war (near the French frontier, not far from San Remo) have considerably increased our knowledge of the civilizations and populations of Northern Italy Comparing these new data with what was already known about the rest of Italy and Its islands, Italian prehistorians have come to thefollowing conclusions of which we give here a very brief summary In Southern Italy and in Sicily, the neolithic civilization of the Matera type arrived in a fully developed form from N Africa, after a stage at Malta.”(p.19) Note p.19,” Bovio Marconi, Inciztom rupestn all 'Addceura {Stciha), Palermo 1954 .A Kuhn The Fehbtlder Europas, Stuttgart, Kohlhammer, 1952.R. Vaufrey, L’art rupestre Ttord-Afrtcam, Mem Inst Paleontologie humame, 1939 , same, L’age de Part naturahste rupestre du Levant espagnol, L’Anthr vol 31, I /a, 1947. — The rock art recently discovered in Sicily, that of Spam, particularly of the grotto of Parpallo, and Saharan rock art are closely related, as also the rock art of Tanganyika [Tanzania].”


The late neolithic of Arene Candide^ which we may consider as Ibero-Maurussian in origin, is in the line of the north African neolithic of Egyptian predynastic inspiration, though more recent by over fifteen centuries These various civilizations were introduced into Italy by successive waves of immigrants, but these belonged, notwithstanding their relative diversity, to the same general ' Mediterranean " type. It is therefore not surprising that the ancient Italian toponymy of these populations, which has been transmitted by the classical authors, presents so striking a likeness to the ancient toponymy of western Asia, Iberia, the south of France, North Africa and last but not least, to that of Dravidian India There is thus, what V. Pisani has described as a Mediterranean toponymic unity^^ but which we do not hesitate to name, more appropriately, a Dravidian- Mediterranean one . The less fertile Sardinia was peopled somewhat later than Malta or Sicily, but likewise from N Africa. (pp.20-21)

“This fundamental unity of the peri Mediterranean civilizations with their extensions towards the west and the Atlantic, or towards the east and the Dravidian countries is evidenced by the funerary monuments, as well as by the pottery The funerary cists of Chamblandes in Western Switzerland are the same as those of Arene Candide The long barrows of Brittany, which are generally pre-megalithic, are similar to the ‘ long-barrows ’ of the British Isles The ringed pottery of Brittany found in the most ancient megalithic monuments is closely related, like the monuments themselves, to the Ibero-Saharian civilization, for circumstance, to that of Los Millares, in the South of Spain “.(pp.22-23)

“In Portugal, after the more negroid mesolithic race of Mugem [related to a similar contemporary type in Brittany (Teviec), also found in neolithic sepultures of Alsatia, of Western Switzerland, and which is similar to the Eurafrican type of upper Egypt of the fifth millenmum] ‘ Mediterraneans ’ settled in the country They belonged to a rather large-headed type, still seen today in parts of central Spain These colonizers brought to Portugal the new stone age cultures”. (pp.39-40)

“In Iberia, the brachycephals — ^who have never occupied more than a small region of the peninsula — ^had settled only after much more numerous contingents of longheads of the Western Mediterranean type'*^ coming from N Africa had spread over most of the country, already before 3500, who had brought with them, in successive migrations, the neolithic civilizations of their African former home .”(p.42)

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quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
So these obscure Indian writers form the 60s and 70s.
Anything less than 50 years old that talks about primary research?

---

quote:

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There were numerous out of Africa exits into Iberia. The African migrants introduced into Europe, the
Aurignacian, Solutrean, Bell Beaker/Corded ware and Moorish cultures between 44,000 BC and 1492
AD. These Sub-Saharan populations belonged to the Black Variety

---

See: http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
just because you list reference that does not mean that and of the authors support that the Iberian cultures from 44k BC in Iberia originate in Africa.

That is a huge block of time "between 44,000 BC and 1492" far too long to be addressed in one article

you say " Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic Europe "....
" Recent research on Y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa (Winters, 2016). Gonzalez et al., (2012) found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried M269. "




Clyde this is pure silliness you talk about M269 being wide spread in Africa and then you have a chart showing a very low frequency in Khoisans 2% even lower for Niger-Congo 0.4 and 8.93% in Guinea Bissau a tiny country of less than 2 million people and former Portuguese colony
Then look at all that blank space in the M269column

This is ridiculous Clyde your chart here shows that far lower than 1% of Africans are M269 carriers and the group is extremely limited Africa.
And there is nothing that proves that is not the result of admixture with Europeans.
You have this theory>
any haplogroup found in Africa originated in Africa
That is simply a belief, a pre-conceieved bias you have

No doubt some Africans have mixed with foreigners just as some Europeans have mixed with Africans. That would be reflected in the DNA.
So at best if you find a given haplogroup in Africa that also occurs in Europe you cannot conclude that just based on that the haplogroup originated in Africa. At best you can say the origin is unknown.

However if you look at where the oldest humans remains of people carrying a given haplogroup and in addition the region of highest diversity and then frequencies in a region all of this together is suggestive of origin (but you routinely ignore this, such as the lacking support for a substantial presence of M269 in Africa)

Haplogroup Origin, Ways of Estimating

1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found
2) region of highest diversity
3) region of highest frequency
4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region

This last one 4) takes into account that while a frequency may be high in one region due to isolation a haplogroup may have originated in another region but has been obscured by various migrations of other people into that region. Therefore diversity of the group in a region is also considered.

Even V88 is at low frequency in the vast majority of Africa. The Chad basin, including Cameroon is where it is high.
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
just because you list reference that does not mean that and of the authors support that the Iberian cultures from 44k BC in Iberia originate in Africa.

That is a huge block of time "between 44,000 BC and 1492" far too long to be addressed in one article

you say " Given the wide distribution of V88 and M269 in Africa and Neolithic Europe "....
" Recent research on Y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa (Winters, 2016). Gonzalez et al., (2012) found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried M269. "




Clyde this is pure silliness you talk about M269 being wide spread in Africa and then you have a chart showing a very low frequency in Khoisans 2% even lower for Niger-Congo 0.4 and 8.93% in Guinea Bissau a tiny country of less than 2 million people and former Portuguese colony
Then look at all that blank space in the M269column

This is ridiculous Clyde your chart here shows that far lower than 1% of Africans are M269 carriers and the group is extremely limited Africa.
And there is nothing that proves that is not the result of admixture with Europeans.
You have this theory>
any haplogroup found in Africa originated in Africa
That is simply a belief, a pre-conceieved bias you have

No doubt some Africans have mixed with foreigners just as some Europeans have mixed with Africans. That would be reflected in the DNA.
So at best if you find a given haplogroup in Africa that also occurs in Europe you cannot conclude that just based on that the haplogroup originated in Africa. At best you can say the origin is unknown.

However if you look at where the oldest humans remains of people carrying a given haplogroup and in addition the region of highest diversity and then frequencies in a region all of this together is suggestive of origin (but you routinely ignore this, such as the lacking support for a substantial presence of M269 in Africa)

Haplogroup Origin, Ways of Estimating

1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found
2) region of highest diversity
3) region of highest frequency
4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region

This last one 4) takes into account that while a frequency may be high in one region due to isolation a haplogroup may have originated in another region but has been obscured by various migrations of other people into that region. Therefore diversity of the group in a region is also considered.

Even V88 is at low frequency in the vast majority of Africa. The Chad basin, including Cameroon is where it is high.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your argument is lame. In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your argument is lame. In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.

---

Clyde your chart is not aDNA it's modern.

Plus you exaggerate for your own purposes all the time. Two Grimaldi skeletons are found in the same burial and then you start talking about Grimaldi man being all over Europe. What you leave out is that those two skeletons do not resemble the body proportions of other paleolithic or neolithic remains in Europe

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.

---

you didn't conduct any DNA testing, you have no samples

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your arguments are lame.

1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found

This dosen't tell us anything about the origin of the individual. You can only find this out by looking at the cultural artifacts that describe the population.


2) region of highest diversity

The 'greatest diversity' argument fails because it only indicates the present population --not the population that may have originally lived in the areas that was replaced by recent emigrants. For example, the majority of Americans speak English, and the English speakers are the dominant population, but the Native Americans are the indigenous people of America--not the English.


3) region of highest frequency

Same answer as number 2.


4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region

This finding depends on archaeology and historical records. These records make it clear that white Europeans do not appear in history until after 1400BC.


In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.

The fact remains that their is no evidence of Eurasians migrating back to Africa. But abundant evidence for Africans migrating and spreading their DNA in Eurasia. [/QB]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your arguments are lame.

1) region where the oldest remains of the haplotype were found

This dosen't tell us anything about the origin of the individual. You can only find this out by looking at the cultural artifacts that describe the population.


2) region of highest diversity

The 'greatest diversity' argument fails because it only indicates the present population --not the population that may have originally lived in the areas that was replaced by recent emigrants. For example, the majority of Americans speak English, and the English speakers are the dominant population, but the Native Americans are the indigenous people of America--not the English.


3) region of highest frequency

Same answer as number 2.


4) consideration of historical influx of varied peoples into region

This finding depends on archaeology and historical records. These records make it clear that white Europeans do not appear in history until after 1400BC.


In many of the aDNA studies researchers are using 3-10 samples to describe an entire population.Often it is only one individual as in the case of Mal'ta man, Naia, and etc. My samples, even at low frequencies, are just as good as theirs.

The fact remains that their is no evidence of Eurasians migrating back to Africa. But abundant evidence for Africans migrating and spreading their DNA in Eurasia.

---

Pure hypocrisy. You just pointed to an article you wrote showing frequencies of V88. You have many artcles using DNA frequencies as argument

So when it's your theory you use DNA frequency in charts to try to support it.

Then when you don't like what the DNA shows you throw up your hands and say the sample is too small and here all the standard methods of estimating a haplogroup's origins are useless.

You only do what convenient for you at a given moment. If the DNA supports your theory dogma from the 1960s you parade it and put up a bunch of charts. If the facts don't conform to theory dogma from the 1960s you put your fingers in your ears and say the data's no good.
You are very predictable, you are a polemicist
Just a moment ago you were promoting the DNA the Kivisild paper and here Guinea-Bissau

Your theory is that any haplogroup is found in Africa it originated there. That is simply a belief, it is in the realm of religion or political dogma

That is not to say that a given haplogroup did not originate in Africa but there has to be some up to date methodology using genetic data to help determine that, not just a belief system from back in the day or based on legend if not made up simply stories you made up (M.U.S. )

Then when you think some genetic data supports your pre-conceived position all of the sudden you love it and put up a bunch of charts recording it, come on Clyde [/QB]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

when did this happen?

---

I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.

---

So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

---

Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

---

THen what defines being a Kushite?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:


The presence of R1b1a2 in Europe is explained by the migration of the Kushites into Europe via Gibraltar and Anatolia

---

when did this happen?

---

I estimate about 13 to10Kya ago.

---

So the KIngdom of Kush was not established around 2000 BC as some believe and they were R-V88 carriers
It was actually much older and around 11,000 to 8,000 BC they migrated to Europe.
So who was already there in Europe before they got there?

And the presence of V88 in Europe is explained by this.

---

Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

---

you're not keeping up with professor Winters >>

quote:

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Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

there is 100 years of archaeological research that places the origin of Iberian cultures in Africa from 44k BC to 1492 AD. 1492 was when the Moors were forced from Iberia.

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quote:

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An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.

Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?

How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).

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quote:

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In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

---

I thought being a Kushite is defined by the kingdom of Kush

So what defines being a Kushite?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

---

I thought being a Kushite is defined by the kingdom of Kush

So what defines being a Kushite?

---

Kushitic people lived before there was a rise of a Kushite Kingdom. It’s the Kushitic people who made the Kushite kingdom.

Did you not pay attention in Africana classes? Were you buzzing yourself with catching flies?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
Being a Kushite doesn't equal the kingdom of Kush as we know it.

---

I thought being a Kushite is defined by the kingdom of Kush

So what defines being a Kushite?

---

Kushitic people lived before there was a rise of a Kushite Kingdom. It’s the Kushitic people who made the Kushite kingdom.

Did you not pay attention in Africana classes? Were you buzzing yourself with catching flies?

---

So what defines being a Kushite? People who speak Cushitic languages? Having certain genes?

---

What defines being a Kushite are two things: 1) they are descendants of the Ounanian Culture and; 2) they called themselves Kushite.


The kushites lived in the Sudan, North Africa and Levant/Anatolia.

Around 800 BC, Homer mentions the Aethiopians, or Kushites, in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Homer said that the Kushites were “the most just of men, the favorites of the Gods”.

To the Greco-Romans there were two Kush empires, one in Africa and the other in Asia. Homer alluded to the two Kushite empires when he wrote in the Odyssey i.23: “a race divided, whom the sloping rays; the rising and the setting sun surveys”. In the Iliad. i.423, Homer wrote that Zeus went to Kush to banquet with the blameless Ethiopians.

In 64 BC, the Greek geographer and historian Strabo stated in Chapter 1 of Geography that there were two Kush empires - one in Asia and another in Africa. In addition to Kush in Nubia and Upper Egypt, some Greco-Roman authors considered their presence in southern Phoenicia up to Mount Amanus in Syria.

The Neolithic process in North Africa was done by Africans, who took the Agro-Pastoral cultures to the Levant and Europe (4).

Niger-Congo Speakers probably played an important role in the peopling of the Sahara. Drake et al make it clear there was considerable human activity in the Sahara before it became a desert[1]. Drake et al [1] provides evidence that the original settlers of this wet Sahara, who used aquatic tool kits, were Nilo-Saharan (NS) speakers. The authors also recognized another Saharan culture that played a role in the peopling of the desert. This population hunted animals with the bow-and –arrow; they are associated with the Ounanian culture. The Ounanian culture existed 12kya [3].



The IAM people [Early Neolithic Moroccans] (5), were nothing more than hunter-gatherer Kushites that had originally belonged to the Ounanian Culture (3-4). The Ounanians, like their Kushite descendants were great archers and based their civilization on hunting using the bow, and limited cattle domestication (3-4).

The Ounanian culture was first described by Breuil in 1930 at Ounan to the south of Taodeni in northern Mali. Ounanian Points are suggested to be the hallmark of the some Epipaleolithic industries in the central Sahara, the Sahel and northern Sudan, and dated to the early Holocene.


The Ounanian culture is associated with sites in central Egypt, Algeria, Mali, Mauretania and Niger [3-4]. The Ounanian tradition is probably associated with the Niger-Congo phyla. This would explain the close relationship between the Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan languages[3].


The original homeland of the Niger-Congo speakers was probably situated in the Saharan Highlands during the Ounanian period. From here NC populations migrated into the Fezzan, Nile Valley and Sudan as their original homeland became more and more arid.


In the Eastern Sahara many individual types of tanged and shouldered arrowheads occur on early Holocene prehistoric sites along with Green Saharan/Wavy-line pottery (1-2) . 'Saharo-Sudanese Neolithic' wavy-line, dotted wavy line and walking-comb pottery was used from Lake Turkana to Nabta Playa, in Tibestim , Mauritania, on into in the Hoggar, in Niger. This pottery evolved into the Beaker Bell ceramics.


Wavy-line pottery

The Ounanian culture was not isolated in Africa. It was spread into the Levant. As a result, we have in the archaeological literature the name Ounan-Harif point. This name was proposed for the tanged points at Nabta Playa and Bir Kiseiba .


Tanged Point


Harifian is a specialized regional cultural development of the Epipalaeolithic of the Negev Desert. Harifian has close connections with the late Mesolithic cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Deserts of Egypt, whose tool assemblage resembles that of the Harifian.


The tangled Ounanian points are also found at Foum Arguin . These points were used from Oued Draa, in southern Morocco, to the Banc d’Arguin and from the Atlantic shore to the lowlands of northwestern Sahara in Mauritania . We now have DNA from Ounanian sites in Morocco.


All the burials in Ifri n’Amr o’Moussa site IAM1-IAM7 , are devoid of any artifacts, except for an original funeral ritual, which consists of placing a millstone on the skull (5) . These burials were dated from 4,850 to 5,250 BCE, they carried U6, M1, T2, X and K (5). This suggest that Africans were already carrying this mtDNA. The spread of the Ounanians to Harif in the Levant explains the presence of these Kushite clades in the Levant and Anatolia.

In summary, the Niger-Congo speakers or Kushites formerly lived in the highland regions of the Fezzan and Hoggar until after 4000 BC. The ancestors of the Kushites were the Ounanians who spread the Ounan-Harfian toolkit, pottery and arrows from throughout North Africa, into Iberia and the Levant. Originally hunter-gatherers the Proto-Niger- Congo people developed an agro-pastoral economy which included the cultivation of millet, and domestication of cattle (and sheep). It was these Kushites who introduced mtDNA U6, M1, T2, X and K; and Y-Chromosome R1b into Eurasian from their African homeland in the Sahel-Sahara.

Eurocentrists attempt to limit the extent of the Kushite empire. The Weni inscription makes it clear that many states were inhabited by the ḫ3st, or Kushites.

.

.


.
The map above makes it appear that only Irthet was Kush, but the Weni inscriptions includes Wawat, Yam and Temeh as being inhabited by Kushite = ḫ3st.

quote:

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The inscription of Weni reads:

“His majesty made war on the Asiatic Sand-dwellers and his majesty made an army of many ten thousands; in the entire South, southward to Elephantine, and northward to Aphroditopolis [Busiris]; in the Northland on both sides entire in the [stronghold], and in the midst of the [strongholds], among the Irthet khas [Kusites], the Mazoi khas [Kushites], the Yam khas [Kushites], among the Wawat Khas [Kushites], among the Kau khas [Kushites], and in the land of Temeh.”

---

In the Weni inscription we can clearly see that Kushites were living in Upper and Lower Egypt. The final comment in the Weni inscription made it clear that ḫ3st (khas=Kushites) were also “in the land of Temeh”.

On this map, Temeh is situated to the south of Irthet, but in Egyptian Temeh, meant Lower Egypt.


The Egyptians made it clear that LOWER EGYPT was called : TAMEH , and UPPER EGYPT : TA SHEMA .

Because the ḫ3st (khas = Kushites), were living in Lower Egypt, when the Kings of Heqa ḫ3st took control of Egypt during the Hyksos period they were returning to the lands of their ancestors as Heqa ḫ3st (khas= Kushites) (Kings of the Kushites).



The khas [Kushites ] belonged to the C-Group people and lived in Upper and Lower Egypt between 3700-1300 BC and were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups: the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South.

Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader as “Hati Tehenu”. The name Hati corresponds to the name Hatti - a tribe in Anatolia. However, the Hatti people often referred to themselves as Kashkas. Kashkas corresponds to ḫ3st (Khas), and the Hyksos were identifying their ethnic origins when they called themselves ḫ3st
.

References:
1. Nick A. Drake, Roger M. Blench, Simon J. Armitage, Charlie S. Bristow, and Kevin H. White. (2010). Ancient watercourses and biogeography of the Sahara explain the peopling of the desert PNAS 2011 108 (2) 458-462; published ahead of print December 27,2010, doi:10.1073/pnas.1012231108
2. Vernet R, Ott M, Tarrou L, Gallin A, Géoris-Creuseveau J. (2007) Excavation of the mound of FA 10 (Banc d'Arguin) and its contribution to the knowledge of the culture paleolithical Foum Arguin, northwestern Sahara (Translated from French) J Afr Archaeol 5:17–46.
3. Winters C. (2012). Origin of the Niger-Congo Speakers. WebmedCentral GENETICS 2012;3(3). https://www.webmedcentral.com/article_view/3149
4. Winters, C. (2017)A GENETIC CHRONOLOGY OF AFRICAN Y-CHROMOSOMES R-V88 AND R-M269 IN AFRICA AND EURASIA,http://www.cibtech.org/J-LIFE-SCIENCES/PUBLICATIONS/2017/VOL-7-NO-2/04-JLS-004-WINTERS-A-EURASIA.pdf
5. Fregel R, et al (2017). Neolithization of North Africa involved the migration of people from both the Levant and Europe. bioRxiv 191569; doi: https://doi.org
 

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Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
 
The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia, because the Dravidians originally belonged to the C-Group of Nubia. Africans also carry haplogroup R1a.
Research on y-haplogroups in Africa suggest that R1-M269 is also widespread in Africa.



Above is a figure from Gonzalez et al., of R1 in Guinea-Bissau. The Gonzalez et al article found that 10 out of 19 subjects in the study carried R1b1-P25 or M269. This is highly significant because it indicates that 53% of the R1 carriers in this study were M269, this finding is further proof of the widespread nature of this so-called Eurasian genes in Africa among populations that have not mated with Europeans . Moreover, Guinea-Bissau was a major area of origin of many slaves during the Atlantic Slave Trade, and, as a result the South American slaves probably already came to the New World carrying R-M269.
[IMG]http://olmec98.net/carr
The R1 haplogroup probably originated in Africa.

The phylogeography of R1 in Africa makes it clear that this y-chromosome is spread globally across Africa and includes the genetic structure of diverse African populations including Berber, Chadic, Cushitic, Khoisan,Pygmy, Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Semitic speaking African populations (Berniell-Lee et al, 2009; Cruciani et al, 2010; Wood et al, 2009). The fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroup illustrate the recent introduction of R y-chromosome to Eurasia.

Abu-Amero et al (20009) reveal the fact that Dravidians carry the R haplogroups illustrate the recent introduction of Ry-chromosomes to Eurasia. The frequency of haplotype M173 in Eurasia is as follows: Anatolia 0.19%, Iran 2.67%, Iraq 0.49% Oman 1.0%, Pakistan 0.57% and Oman 1.0% . This contrast sharply with the widespread distribution of R1 in Africa that ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon (Coia et al, 2005). Coia et al (2005) has revealed that no maternal Eurasian lineages have been found among Sub-Saharan Africans with a R1- M173 profile.
Haplogroup V88 has the greatest frequency in Africa. It is predominately carried by Chadic speakers, ranges between 2-60% among Central African Niger-Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010).



The phylogenetically deep haplogroup R1b is mainly found in West Africa and the Sahel, where the frequency ranges between 85-100% among Niger Congo speakers (Cruciani et al, 2010). The paternal record of M173 on the African continent illustrates a greater distribution of this y-chromosome among varied African populations than, in Asia.

The greatest diversity of R1b in Africa is highly suggestive of an Africa origin for this male lineage. Archaeological (Lal, 1963), genetic (Winters, 2008;2010a), placenames (Balakrishnan, 2005) and linguistic data group (Aravanan,1979,1980; Upadhyaya, 1976,1979; Winters 1985a,1985b, 1989) linking Africans and Dravidian support the recent demic diffusion of SubSaharan Africans and gene flow from Africa to Eurasia. An early colonization of Eurasia 4kya by Sub-Saharan Africans and Dravidian carriers of R1-M173 is the best scenario to explain the high frequency and widespread geographical distribution of this y-chromosome on the African continent (Winters, 2010c). Given the greatest diversity of R1- M173, this is the most parsimonious model explaining the frequency of R-M173 in Africa.
In conclusion, the R haplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa. Researchers have found that the TMRCA of V88 was 9200-5600 kya (Cruciani et al, 2010). Eurasians carry the M269 (R1b1b2) mutation. The subclades of R1b1b2 include Rh1b1b2g (U106) (TMRCA 8.3kya) and R1b1b2h (U152) (TMRCA 7.4kya). The most recent common ancestor for R1b1b2 is probably 8kya (Balaresque et al, 2010).

In Africa we find R-M269 and V88. Clearly, R-V88 is older than R-M269 there is no evidence of archaeological evidence of a back migration or haplogroup R into Africa, but there is evidence of the migration of the Kushites and Proto-Sahara into Eurasia from Middle Africa. This supports the proposition the R haplogroups originated in Africa, not Eurasia.
The fact remains that R-M269, is found among Sub-Saharan Africans from West, to East and Southern Africa. This supports my contention that this haplogroup is widespread in Africa.

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In India the Dravidian people carry the R1a haplogroup The Dravidian people of India originally lived in Middle Africa and belonged to the Proto-Saharan Civilization.
The Proto-Saharan civilization was situated in the Proto-Sahara, which includes Cameroon.
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In Cameroon we find carriers of R1a.
In addition to carriers of R1a in Cameroon; the Dravidian languages are still spoken today in Cameroon see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjkhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWyAYGlFZjk

The frequency of R1 in Chad-Cameroon, and other parts of Africa is just as high as in Europe;the frequency of R1 in Africa ranges between 7- 95% in various parts of Africa, especially Cameroon .
In Fact all of Western Europe can fit into the area where we find R1b and R1a in Africa.

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Chad-Cameroon is not the only place R1 is found. Interestingly, Chad-Cameroon is larger than the area of Western Europe.

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Moreover, the frequency of R1 in a particular region does not indicate place of origin.

The Egyptians made it clear that LOWER EGYPT was called : TAMEH , and UPPER EGYPT : TA SHEMA . [/b]

Because the ḫ3st (khas = Kushites), were living in Lower Egypt, when the Kings of Heqa ḫ3st took control of Egypt during the Hyksos period they were returning to the lands of their ancestors as Heqa ḫ3st (khas= Kushites) (Kings of the Kushites).



The khas [Kushites ] belonged to the C-Group people and lived in Upper and Lower Egypt between 3700-1300 BC and were called Tmhw (Temehus). The Temehus were organized into two groups: the Thnw (Tehenu) in the North and the Nhsj (Nehesy) in the South.


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Sahure referred to the Tehenu leader as “Hati Tehenu”. The name Hati corresponds to the name Hatti - a tribe in Anatolia. However, the Hatti people often referred to themselves as Kashkas. Kashkas corresponds to ḫ3st (Khas), and the Hyksos were identifying their ethnic origins when they called themselves ḫ3st

Hattians lived in Anatolia. They worshipped Kasku and Kusuh. They were especially prominent in the Pontic mountains. Their sister nation in the Halys Basin were the Kaska tribes. The Kaska and Hattians share the same names for gods, along with personal and place names (1). The Kaska had a strong empire which was never defeated by the Hittites.


The Hatti controlled the city state of Kussara. Kussara was situated in southern Anatolia.


The tribal names: Kings of Kish for the Sumerians, Kashka and Khas for the hyksos show that the Anatolians were Kushites.


In conclusion, the R macrohaplogroup probably originated in Africa. In my paper POSSIBLE AFRICAN ORIGIN OF Y-CHROMOSOME R1-M173 , I argue that the P clade originated in Africa because 1) the age of R-V88 and 2) the widespread nature of R1 in Africa.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
I assume Ish Gebor agrees with Clyde that the the Hyksos were Kushites.
 

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Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
I assume Ish Gebor agrees with Clyde that the the Hyksos were Kushites.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
I assume Ish Gebor agrees with Clyde that the the Hyksos were Kushites.

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Your problem is that you always assume things. No wonder, for someone how is catching flies.

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