This is from Dienekes. I find interesting and I partially agree with.
------ I had previously called Irhoud 1 "The Father of Mankind" and proposed a "two deserts" theory of human evolution whereby our species originated in North Africa, and was pumped out of it to both the Middle East (and especially Arabia, the 2nd desert) and Sub-Saharan Africa during periods of Saharan aridity. This Out-of-North Africa theory (together with the secondary Out-of-Arabia expansion ~70kya) is responsible for the spread of Homo sapiens around the world.
The discovery and re-dating of modern human remains from Irhoud of course adds support to this theory and places North Africa as the most probable cradle of our species, with a comfortable 100kya buffer to the next place where modern humans are detected (the Omo remains of East Africa), and another comfortable 100kya buffer to the next place (Israel and the Skhul/Qafzeh hominins).
The interpretation of these findings in terms of Homo sapiens emerging out of a sort of multi-regional evolution involving all Africa is of course wrong. There is no reason to think of a single species evolving across the huge African continent. The early distribution of sapiens remains are in North Africa, East Africa, and the Near East, and such remains are absent in West/Central/South Africa.
The multi-regionalists lost the game in Eurasia, as it turned out that Eurasians only have ~2% archaic admixture, and they are inventing Multiregionalism-in-Africa.
Whatever finds we do have from Sub-Saharan Africa, some of them quite late (such as the Iwo Eleru remains from Nigeria), others of similar age as Irhoud (such as Florisbad and the recently described H. naledi from South Africa) did not belong to our species. The first modern humans appeared in South Africa with the Later Stone Age (probably associated with the migration of Y-chromosome haplogroup E into Africa), and the Hofmeyr skull (which resembled Eurasians and not the eternally romanticized Khoe-San). Even in East Africa the advent of modernity was not clear-cut (see Omo I vs. II and the more archaic later Herto specimen).
It seems that people were misled into thinking of Sub-Saharan Africa as the origin of our species by the genetic observation of greater genetic diversity of Sub-Saharan Africans. But, this diversity could have come about by admixture between people from North Africa and pre-existing people of Sub-Saharan Africa (both early waves of AMH and non-AMH).
It's not certain that North Africa will be the end of the story. Fashions shifted from the Near East to East Africa, to North Africa, with every new find. But, the fact that we do find the earliest modern humans in these areas, while we find non-AMH elsewhere (e.g. Europe or South Africa) is gradually constraining the solution to the problem of our origins. My bet remains North Africa; time will tell.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
It seems that people were misled into thinking of Sub-Saharan Africa as the origin of our species by the genetic observation of greater genetic diversity of Sub-Saharan Africans. But, this diversity could have come about by admixture between people from North Africa and pre-existing people of Sub-Saharan Africa (both early waves of AMH and non-AMH).
I'm confused by that part,I get its a lame excuse to explain how they are different from the blacks in the south but if I recall correctly the mulitregion theory postulates earlier forms of humanity arose in Africa and spread to other parts of the world to become said group or they evolved independently from types already in those lands,they aren't denying an African origin but seem like they are implying NA was already inhabited as they only way they could be different is time if they are not a new species so where do these ancient amh and north Africans originate if they aren't coming from Asia or Europe?
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
I think there's a little bit of romanticizing going on here. While I agree that there are many clues suggesting that the origins of AMH came about more westward than we originally thought I believe the explanation Dienkes gives is more towards comfort than objectivity.
(as it relates to what's quoted by by OP) The wording seems to suggest human origins in North Africa, then dispersals from the region populating nearby areas or so to the east, essentially suggesting that different populations branched from a north African Epicenter with multiple waves towards the south. This seems like a way to cut corners and not have to deal with the reality and/or magnitude of the implications of some findings like haplogroup DE and the shared introgression and admixture in North and SSA.
To me it doesn't really matter where AMH actually emerged, what matters is everything else. Most OOA's particularly west Eurasians and north Africans converge on a model Ancient East African (AEA) a subsaharan Archetype. Other OOAs fall in between the latter and extant San populations (not even BBay's basal African). I also haven't seen any live evidence of archaic introgression in north Africa not shared with SSA's. So even If Humans did originate from North Africa, I don't buy the Idea that they branched out of that region (at that time). Rather there was later a PostOOA population expansion mostly within Africa involving the MENA, which'll better explain the distribution of HG.E. <- that I believe have a north African/Saharan source.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
This is bs. Man originated in South Africa.
This is supported by the fact that the varied ancient cultures appear first in South Africa, and then move north into North Africa and Eurasia, via Iberia.
This is all part of a ploy to take the origin of man in an area they can promote as non Sub-Saharan Africans, by making it appear that the (white) Berbers are the original inhabitants of North Africa.
They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure? [/QB]
Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans
Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
. These Hausa women are lighter skinned than these Khoisan, who have not mated with Bantu. Black people come in different colors. Khoisan are no lighter than any other African population.
.
.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?
Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans
Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African [/QB]
LOL. Only a fool accepts every lie made by Eurocentric scholar.
.
.
These researchers know that the first Europeans were Khoisan,so, they try to pretend the Khoisan are lighter than other Africans to perfect their lie.
, .
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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Some African groups are on average lighter and others darker
And that's Eurocentric ??
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Some African groups are on average lighter and others darker
And that's Eurocentric ??
No. The myth that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans is a myth. .
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Some Khoisans are dark but many Khoisans have lighter skin than other Africans, not just the women but the men. And you can see this in many photos of tribes people living in the rural areas not urban women all made up.
Clyde I don't know why you have a problem with this. Is it just dislike you have for lighter skin?
And it has nothing to do with Europeans, it's African diversity. Some groups are tall others short, etc etc variation
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I do believe North Africa played a very important if not the origin of our species.
I don't see how our species could have evolved in the tropical rain forest. The Sahel ..maybe. I believe there was a "geological" shift. And with evolution of the Sahara humans shifted south and North. Remember Italy and southern Europe was "Tropical" at one time.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Some Khoisans are dark but many Khoisans have lighter skin than other Africans, not just the women but the men. And you can see this in many photos of tribes people living in the rural areas not urban women all made up.
Clyde I don't know why you have a problem with this. Is it just dislike you have for lighter skin?
And it has nothing to do with Europeans, it's African diversity. Some groups are tall others short, etc etc variation
LOL.We are Colored folk as illustrated by my photo of Hausa women.
I have nothing against light skin people. If you were Afro-American you would know that in the AA family some members are light and others dark in fact when I was younger I was much lighter than I am now.
The Khoisan are no lighter or darker than any other African population. I just get tired of Eurocentrists creating lies about African people and their history.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I do believe North Africa played a very important if not the origin of our species.
I don't see how our species could have evolved in the tropical rain forest. The Sahel ..maybe. I believe there was a "geological" shift. And with evolution of the Sahara humans shifted south and North. Remember Italy and southern Europe was "Tropical" at one time.
Southern Africa is not a tropical rain forest.
The earliest AMHs have been found in Southern--not North Africa. Moreover, North Africa, the Sahel and etc., is less stable geologically than North Africa.
As I said before, situating the origin of man in North Africa is bs.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?
Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans
Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African [/QB]
The Berbers came from Germanic background. The Tuareg and Berbers are two different populations.
The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/ ).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.
Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت) a important oasis of the Morocco )
The Taureg have traditionally been associated with the Western Sudan and Sahel. Not North Africa.
The Libyans can not be homogenous because beginning with the invasion of the Peoples of the Sea numerous ethnic groups were deposited in the Delta and other parts of North Africa.
Let’s discuss this issue that Berbers and Tuareg practice an African culture. This is evident when we look at the dress of Berber and Tuareg women
The Berber traditional dress is more European. They wear attire common to Germanic folk dress instead of the garb associated with the Tuareg due to the Germanic origin of this population.
The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond
Berbers
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Berbers
The culture of the Berbers and Tuareg does not correspond
Berbers
[/QB]
why have you posted a picture of Bulgarian folk dancers??
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Berber traditional dress is more European. They wear attire common to Germanic folk dress instead of the garb associated with the Tuareg due to the Germanic origin of this population. Ouled Naïl people
The oral lore of the Ouled Naïl people claims ancient Arab descent from tribes that arrived in the area about a thousand years ago. Some traditions trace their ancestry to the Banu Hilal of Hejaz, who came to the highlands through El Oued, Ghardaia,[1] while others claim that they are direct descendants of Idris I.[2] Current research confirms that the Ouled Naïl have are a highly Arabized Berber tribal society.[3]
The Ouled Naïl are seminomadic or nomadic people living in the highlands of the range of the Saharan Atlas to which they gave their name.
Clyde, show us Europeans dressed like this
The oral lore of the Ouled Naïl people claims ancient Arab descent
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
The Vandal Origin of the Berbers Cheikh Anta Diop makes it clear that the Berbers are not related to Palaeo-Africans. In Libya Antiqua, Diop explains how the original Libu and Tehenu were blacks; and that the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea who arrived in the area around 1200 BC and fought Ramses III.
He makes it clear that the majority of the Berbers are descended from the Peoples of the Sea See:Diop, C A , "Formation of the Berber Branch", In Libya Antiqua,(ed) by UNESCO ,(Paris:UNESCO 1986) page 69 and C.A. Diop Civilization or Barbarism (Lawrence Hill Com.1991, p.34).
The Berber languages support a European origin for this group. When I talk about the Berbers I am not talking about the Tuareg, I am talking about the light skinned European looking Berbers.
The Berber language is related to Germanic languages. And the Germanic languages are native to Germany.
The Vandal rule of North Africa, explains the Germanic substratum influence in Berber. This linguistic connection results from the German rule in North Africa for 400 years. The Vandal rule in North Africa explains the origin of the white speakers of this "language" family.
The Berber languages as pointed out by numerous authors is full of vocabulary from other languages. Many Berbers may be descendants of the Vandels (Germanic) speaking people who ruled North Africa and Spain for 400 years. Commenting on this reality Diop in The African Origin of Civilization noted that: “Careful search reveals that German feminine nouns end in t and st. Should we consider that Berbers were influenced by Germans or the reVerse? This hypothesis could not be rejected a priori, for German tribes in the fifth century overran North Africa vi Spain, and established an empire that they ruled for 400 years….Furthermore, the plural of 50 percent of Berber nouns is formed by adding en, as is the case with feminine nouns in German, while 40 percent form their plural in a, like neuter nouns in Latin.Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69).
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European origin, especially Vandal origin. Official rule Vandal rule lated only a 100+ years, but bthe 20-80k Vandals who settled Africa had a lasting influence in the North Africa.
The experts say that the Berber languages (I am not including Tuareg) has elements from numerous European languages I have never seen any discussion of Berber relations to East African languages, Berber languages are related to the Semitic group due to the Arabic speakers that surround them.
The Berber, or Amazigh, people live in Northern Africa throughout the Mediterranean coast, the Sahara desert and Sahel which used to be a Berber world before the arrival of Arabs. Today, there are large groups of Berber people in Morocco and Algeria, important communitites in Mali, Niger and Libya, and smaller groups in Tunis, Mauritania, Burkina-Faso and Egypt. The Tuareg of the desert also belong to the Berber group. The Berber people speak 26 closely related languages.
Consonants
Berber consonants include:
glottalized consonants, so called because the space between the vocal cords (glottis) is constricted during their pronunciation; implosive consonants produced with the air sucked inward; ejective consonants produced with the air "ejected" or forced out; geminate (doubled) consonants produced by holding them in position longer than for their single counterparts. Click here to listen to a Berber song recorded in Morocco.
Grammar
Noun phrase
Berber nouns have two cases. One case is used for the subject of intransitive verbs, while the other is used for the subject of transitive verbs and objects of prepositions. There are two genders: masculine and feminine. The plural of nouns has a masculine and a feminine form.
Verb phrase
Verbs are marked for tense and aspect. The perfective of the verb is formed by reduplication of the second consonant of the root, or by the prefix -tt-.
Vocabulary
Most of the vocabulary is Berber in origin with borrowings from Latin, Arabic, French, Spanish, and other sub-Saharan languages. There is generally little or no intelligibility between the dialects.
Since we know the Vandals conquered the country from the Romans, why should we not be more inclined to seek explanations for the Berbers in the direction, both linguistically and in physical appearance: blond hair, blue eyes, etc? But no! Disregarding all these facts, historians decree that there was no Vandal influence and that it would be impossible to attribute anything in Barbary to their occupation” (p.69). [/b] The linguistic evidence makes it clear that Romans , Greeks and other Europeans have influenced the Berbers.
I have never read that Tuareg has any Indo-European elements. Tuareg, as opposed to the other Berber languages is closely related to Hausa and Songhay.
Andre Basset in La Langue Berbere, has discussed the I-E elements in the Berber languages. There is also a discussion of these elements in Schuchardt, Die romanischen Lehnworter im Berberischen (Wien,1918). Basset provides a few examples in his monograph. I have posted the page so you can examine the material yourself.
The influence of European languages on the Berber languages and the grammar of the Berber languages indicate that the Berbers are probably of European, especially Vandal origin.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Tuaregs collecting firewood in the desert of the Acacus Mountains or Tadrart Acacus, Akakus, Libya, North Africa
Tuareg population, all countries: 2.5 milliion
Total Berber population 25-50 million
North African Population, 195 million (2007).
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Berber languages support a European origin for this group. When I talk about the Berbers I am not talking about the Tuareg, I am talking about the light skinned European looking Berbers.
The Berber language is related to Germanic languages. And the Germanic languages are native to Germany.
The Vandal rule of North Africa, explains the Germanic substratum influence in Berber. This linguistic connection results from the German rule in North Africa for 400 years. The Vandal rule in North Africa explains the origin of the white speakers of this "language" family.
xyyman can you address this, Clyde is trying to promote the lie that the berbers are a back migration of Europeans, please set him straight on this, this Vandal myth. The Tuaregs are less than 2% of North Africans Can you please educate Clyde as to the Mozabites, Riffians, Saharawis, etc all these berber groups. As we can clearly see their DNA is African not European
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
Amazigh. Not an Ottoman Turk. Note facial structure
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Real Berbers
Morocco, Atlas Mountains:
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Dr Winters and disagree only on a few things. Berbers are more African than maybe even some SSA. Turks imposters of Africans are not Africans.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Dr Winters and disagree only on a few things. Berbers are more African than maybe even some SSA. Turks imposters of Africans are not Africans.
So to what extent is the average Maghrebian of Turkish ancestry?
How Turkish is the Maghreb ?
Also Clyde thinks apart form the Tuareg berbers derive primarily from Germanic Vandals who were said to have occupied part of North Africa 435 AD to 534 AD.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Berbers carry morphological features similar to KhoiSans, East Asians and some SSA. I believe Coon called it Capsoid who occupied all of Adrica and Asia until the Neolithic arrived from Sudan region.
Yes. The 3 pics are Berbers.
I don't use written "history", by genetic data and archeological data.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Berbers carry morphological features similar to KhoiSans, East Asians and some SSA. I believe Coon called it Capsoid who occupied all of Adrica and Asia until the Neolithic arrived from Sudan region.
Khosisans are of Y DNA haplogroup A and B
The predominant berber clade is E-M81
the San don't carry that
Also most North Africans do not resemble Khosians much. Khosians often have very wide set eyes, peppercorn hair and epicanthal eye fold, lighter skin on average
Also, read back I added to my last post, Clyde thinks apart from Tuaregs berbers are derived from a back migrations of Germanic Vandals
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81
2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.
3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.
!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9% Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You should know by that you don't fugkc with me! :D :rolleyes:
I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: 1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81
2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.
3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.
!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9% Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%
I'm not taking up anything with Coon's outdated racist theories. Try taking it up with knowing what you are talking about and backing it with current anthropology
You have copied the percentages of M215 form wikipedia but the particular subclade of most of the Khwe people is E-M293
there's about a hundred groups there on the M215 including the Tigre people at 100% and many other East African groups also elsewhere, Souss berbers 98%, Somalis in Kenya 100%, Pasiegos from Cantabria 42.9%
So you think randomly pointing to one group the Khwe does not make any case and wide cheeks is not enough to build any case. Stop the flimsy BS, there is no special relationship between berbers and Khoisan
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Take it up with Coon not me.
He's been dead for 36 years
quote:
Carleton Coon
This schematic map shows the distribution of the five subspecies of Homo during most of the Pleistocene, from 500,000 to 10,000 years ago. This distribution matches that on the diagram in Chapter 1. Of the five subspecies, the Congoid was the most isolated; it was in contact with only one other, the Capoid, then resident in North Africa. The second map shows what happened at the end of the Pleistocene, when the Mongoloids and Caucasoids expanded and burst out of their territories. The Mongoloids entered and inhabited America, and extended their domain southward into Southeast Asia and Indonesia, while the Australoids crossed Wallace's Line and occupied Australia and New Guinea. The Caucasoids thrust northward. More significantly, they drove the Capoids out of North Africa and occupied the White Highlands of Kenya and Tanganyika. The Congoids were reduced to a small part of their earlier domain, including the Congo forests and the lands to the north, where they later evolved rapidly and spread, as Negroes, over much of Africa.
^^ Carleton Coon's wacky theory look closely at the maps, the various peoples migrations form the top map to the bottom map
More Cooning >
quote:
"Meanwhile we may note that a detailed analysis of 571 modern Negro crania, made by advanced mathematical techniques, has shown that these crania gravitate between two poles, a Mediterranean Caucasoid and a Pygmy one. The former type is again divisible into an ordinary Mediterranean and a Western Asian type, which suggests more than a single northern point of origin for the Caucasoid element. As we shall in greater detail in Chapter 8 and 9, the Negroes resemble Caucasoids closely a number of genetic traits that are inherited in a simple fashion. Examples of these are fingerprints, types of earwax, and the major blood groups. The Negroes also have some of the same local, predominantly African, blood types as the Pygmies. " This evidence suggests that the Negroes are not a primary sub-species but rather a product of mixture between invading Caucasoids and Pygmies who lived on the edges of the forest, which at the end of the Pleistocene extended farther north and east than it does now.
The Living Races of Man by Carleton S. Coon
Sub-Saharan Africans are arrayed on a cline going from Mbuti Pygmies to Europeans
xyyman, what were you saying about inventing multiregionalism in Africa again?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am not subscribing to racist theory because I race does not exist. My point is Coon had some ideas but was not entirely correct.
He did not understand and have genetics as his tools. Modern genetics prove he was on the right track but not entirely right
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] yDNA A not E entered South Africa first !!!!!
This is from Dienekes. I find interesting and I partially agree with.
------
they are inventing Multiregionalism-in-Africa.....
....It seems that people were misled into thinking of Sub-Saharan Africa as the origin of our species
You is "they"
what are the names?
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: 1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81
2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.
3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.
!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9% Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%
1 - This was cleared up a LONG time ago, repeatedly. E-M35* form Henn and Tishkoff was not ancestral, it was later resolved as E-M293. 2 - Berber Haplogroup A (which is mostly shared with Senegambians), which is A1a/A00, is totally different from South African Haplogroup A, which forms a Brother clade with East African A....a Clade separated by 10's of thousands of years. You can see that in this map.
Sometimes you are spot on, right now you are all over the place.
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
^ he's trying to clump too much ideas together, xyyman, you gotta learn to lose. Let go of the little things to unveil the bigger picture. I know you already KNOW the things said above, why bother obfuscate and further tarnish your credibility?
They have already been able to make many stupid Blacks believe that Khoisan are lighter than other Africans. Go figure?
Clyde stop making up stuff most Khoisans are lighter than other Africans and everybody knows it. The darker ones are mixed with Bantu. They live further from the equator so naturally one would expect them to be not as dark as most equatorial Africans
Also xyyman has shown the average berber is over 80% African [/QB]
Reason for their light skin might be due to admixture, plus the darker San outnumber the light skin ones.
[ 24. August 2017, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other? I haven’t looked at the Tree for yDNA-A recently but I also believe both a siblings or paraclades.
I am always spot on!! ALWAYS. I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!!!
@Autshumato - Read the new paper on Khoi-San. I believe my thread was deleted but Khoi-San light skin is ANCESTRAL to Europeans.
You may be in the wrong thread Brotha. Just saying.
Edit- Just looked at your Y-DNA chart on hg-A. I am don’t get you people. You post shyte and either don’t read it first or don’t understand it. A-M31 found in Berbers and A-M^ found in South Africans-Khoi_San are siblings or paraclades. You just made my point. Khoi-San and Berbers are distantly related. WT…..SMH. This supports that Coon was probably right. “Capsoids” occupied North Africa
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: 1. Khoi_San and click speakers Hadza carry E-M35 paraclade of E-M81
2. Berbers ALSO carry yDNA A closely related to Khoi-San.
3. Morphologically I speak about the flatface and wide cheek bone. Take it up with Coon not me.
!Kung 64 Angola KS 10.9% Khwe 26 Namibia KS 30.8%
1 - This was cleared up a LONG time ago, repeatedly. E-M35* form Henn and Tishkoff was not ancestral, it was later resolved as E-M293. 2 - Berber Haplogroup A (which is mostly shared with Senegambians), which is A1a/A00, is totally different from South African Haplogroup A, which forms a Brother clade with East African A....a Clade separated by 10's of thousands of years. You can see that in this map.
Sometimes you are spot on, right now you are all over the place.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
------ From Wiki Y-DNA haplogroup A contains lineages deriving from the earliest branching in the human Y chromosome tree. The oldest branching event, separating A0-P305 and A1-V161, is thought to have occurred about 140,000 years ago. Haplogroups A0-P305, A1a-M31 and A1b1a-M14 are restricted to Africa and A1b1b-M32 is nearly restricted to Africa. The haplogroup that would be named A1b2 is composed of haplogroups B through T. The internal branching of haplogroup A1-V161 into A1a-M31, A1b1, and BT (A1b2) may have occurred about 110,000 years ago. A0-P305 is found at low frequency in Central and West Africa. A1a-M31 is observed in northwestern Africans; A1b1a-M14 is seen among click language-speaking Khoisan populations. A1b1b-M32 has a wide distribution including Khoisan speaking and East African populations, and scattered members *****on the Arabian Peninsula.*****
----
Remember this new paper is coming out that speaks about Khoi-Sans aDNA(autosomal) in the Indian Ocean. Can’t wait for that paper!
Southern Europeans has their own version of yDNA A, see - Low-pass DNA sequencing of 1200 Sardinians reconstructs European Y-chromosome phylogeny. Francalacci et al
As I said, don’t fugk with me if you don’t know what you are talking about. SMH.
Posted by Autshumato (Member # 22722) on :
@Punos_Rey, why edit my comment? I was being specific so that whoever reads it knows about who they admixed with. It just says admixed, but not with who?
This behavior of yours is very strange.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
My Point. The root of the yDNA(A) is found from Southern Europe to the Levant. Yes, Khoi-San related peoples occupied North Africa, Southern Europe and the Levant.
Cruciani F, Trombetta B, Massaia A, Destro-Bisol G, Sellitto D, Scozzari R (June 2011). "A revised root for the human Y chromosomal phylogenetic tree: the origin of patrilineal diversity in Africa" ---- Wiki - A0-P305[edit] A0 or A1b-P305 is found only in Bakola Pygmies (South Cameroon) at 8.3% and Berbers from Algeria at 1.5%.[5 (Cruiciani et al 2011)] Also found in Ghana.[6]
Africa —Northern[edit] The subclade A1 has been observed in Moroccan Berbers, while the subclade A3b2 has been observed in approximately 3% of Egyptian males.
Africa —Southern[edit] One study has found haplogroup A in samples of various Khoisan-speaking tribes with frequency ranging from 10% to 70%.[14] Surprisingly, this particular haplogroup was not found in a sample of the Hadzabe from Tanzania, a population traditionally considered an ancient remnant of Khoisans due to the presence of click consonants in their language.
Eurasia[edit] Haplogroup A has been observed as A1 in European men in England. As A3b2, it has been observed with low frequency in Asia Minor, the Middle East, and some Mediterranean islands, among Aegean Turks, Sardinians, Palestinians, Jordanians,**** Yemenites***** and Omanis. Without testing for any subclade, haplogroup A has been observed in a sample of Greeks from Mitilini on the Aegean island of Lesvos[25] and in samples of Portuguese from southern Portugal, central Portugal, and Madeira.[26] The authors of one study have reported finding what appears to be haplogroup A in 3.1% (2/65) of a sample of Cypriots,[27] though they have not definitively excluded the possibility that either of these individuals may belong to haplogroup B or haplogroup C.
M51[edit] The subclade A1b1b2a-M51 (formerly A3b1) occurs most frequently among Khoisan peoples (6/11 = 55% Nama,[14] 11/39 = 28% Khoisan,[17] 7/32 = 22% !Kung/Sekele,[14] 6/29 = 21% Tsumkwe San,[14] 1/18 = 6% Dama[14]). However, it also has been found with lower frequency among Bantu peoples of Southern Africa, including 2/28 = 7% Sotho–Tswana,[14] 3/53 = 6% non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[17] 4/80 = 5% Xhosa,[14] and 1/29 = 3% Zulu.[14]
M13[edit] The subclade A1b1b2b-M13 (formerly A3b2) is primarily distributed among Nilotic populations in East Africa and northern Cameroon. It is different from the A subclades that are found in the Khoisan samples and only remotely related to them (it is actually only one of many subclades within haplogroup A). This finding suggests an ancient divergence.
In Sudan, haplogroup A-M13 has been found in 28/53 = 52.8% of Southern Sudanese, 13/28 = 46.4% of the Nuba of central Sudan, 25/90 = 27.8% of Western Sudanese, 4/32 = 12.5% of local Hausa people, and 5/216 = 2.3% of Northern Sudanese.[36]
In Ethiopia, one study has reported finding haplogroup A-M13 in 14.6% (7/48) of a sample of Amhara and 10.3% (8/78) of a sample of Oromo.[21] Another study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2b-M118 in 6.8% (6/88) and haplogroup A3b2*-M13(xA3b2a-M171, A3b2b-M118) in 5.7% (5/88) of a mixed sample of Ethiopians, amounting to a total of 12.5% (11/88) A3b2-M13.[17]
Haplogroup A-M13 also has been observed occasionally outside of Central and Eastern Africa, as in the Aegean Region of Turkey (2/30 = 6.7%[37]), Yemenite Jews (1/20 = 5%[19]), Egypt (4/147 = 2.7%,[22] 3/92 = 3.3%[14]), Palestinian Arabs (2/143 = 1.4%[38]), Sardinia (1/77 = 1.3%,[39] 1/22 = 4.5%[17]), the capital of Jordan, Amman (1/101=1%[40]), and Oman (1/121 = 0.8%[22]).
Haplogroup A-M13 has been found among three Neolithic period fossils excavated from the Kadruka site in Sudan.[41]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
xyyman does what Clyde does.
You look at a chart of a hundred different groups in various places in the world with the same paragroup.
Then you pick a place you like and say the haplogroup originated there and hide the rest Then pick another group on the list and then say there is some special relationship there to the first group and then you can make up whatever migratory story you want.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other? I haven’t looked at the Tree for yDNA-A recently but I also believe both a siblings or paraclades.
I am always spot on!! ALWAYS. I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!!!
xyyamn is so wacky he puts up this chart debunking himself thinking it backs up what he said
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: My Point. The root of the yDNA(A) is found from Southern Europe to the Levant. Yes, Khoi-San related peoples occupied North Africa, Southern Europe and the Levant.
Cruciani F, Trombetta B, Massaia A, Destro-Bisol G, Sellitto D, Scozzari R (June 2011). "A revised root for the human Y chromosomal phylogenetic tree: the origin of patrilineal diversity in Africa"
Wiki - A0-P305[edit] A0 or A1b-P305 is found only in Bakola Pygmies (South Cameroon) at 8.3% and Berbers from Algeria at 1.5%.[5 (Cruiciani et al 2011)] Also found in Ghana.[6]
Africa —Northern[edit] The subclade A1 has been observed in Moroccan Berbers, while the subclade A3b2 has been observed in approximately 3% of Egyptian males.
Africa —Southern[edit] One study has found haplogroup A in samples of various Khoisan-speaking tribes with frequency ranging from 10% to 70%.[14] Surprisingly, this particular haplogroup was not found in a sample of the Hadzabe from Tanzania, a population traditionally considered an ancient remnant of Khoisans due to the presence of click consonants in their language.
Eurasia[edit] Haplogroup A has been observed as A1 in European men in England. As A3b2, it has been observed with low frequency in Asia Minor, the Middle East, and some Mediterranean islands, among Aegean Turks, Sardinians, Palestinians, Jordanians,**** Yemenites***** and Omanis. Without testing for any subclade, haplogroup A has been observed in a sample of Greeks from Mitilini on the Aegean island of Lesvos[25] and in samples of Portuguese from southern Portugal, central Portugal, and Madeira.[26] The authors of one study have reported finding what appears to be haplogroup A in 3.1% (2/65) of a sample of Cypriots,[27] though they have not definitively excluded the possibility that either of these individuals may belong to haplogroup B or haplogroup C.
M51[edit] The subclade A1b1b2a-M51 (formerly A3b1) occurs most frequently among Khoisan peoples (6/11 = 55% Nama,[14] 11/39 = 28% Khoisan,[17] 7/32 = 22% !Kung/Sekele,[14] 6/29 = 21% Tsumkwe San,[14] 1/18 = 6% Dama[14]). However, it also has been found with lower frequency among Bantu peoples of Southern Africa, including 2/28 = 7% Sotho–Tswana,[14] 3/53 = 6% non-Khoisan Southern Africans,[17] 4/80 = 5% Xhosa,[14] and 1/29 = 3% Zulu.[14]
M13[edit] The subclade A1b1b2b-M13 (formerly A3b2) is primarily distributed among Nilotic populations in East Africa and northern Cameroon. It is different from the A subclades that are found in the Khoisan samples and only remotely related to them (it is actually only one of many subclades within haplogroup A). This finding suggests an ancient divergence.
In Sudan, haplogroup A-M13 has been found in 28/53 = 52.8% of Southern Sudanese, 13/28 = 46.4% of the Nuba of central Sudan, 25/90 = 27.8% of Western Sudanese, 4/32 = 12.5% of local Hausa people, and 5/216 = 2.3% of Northern Sudanese.[36]
In Ethiopia, one study has reported finding haplogroup A-M13 in 14.6% (7/48) of a sample of Amhara and 10.3% (8/78) of a sample of Oromo.[21] Another study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2b-M118 in 6.8% (6/88) and haplogroup A3b2*-M13(xA3b2a-M171, A3b2b-M118) in 5.7% (5/88) of a mixed sample of Ethiopians, amounting to a total of 12.5% (11/88) A3b2-M13.[17]
Haplogroup A-M13 also has been observed occasionally outside of Central and Eastern Africa, as in the Aegean Region of Turkey (2/30 = 6.7%[37]), Yemenite Jews (1/20 = 5%[19]), Egypt (4/147 = 2.7%,[22] 3/92 = 3.3%[14]), Palestinian Arabs (2/143 = 1.4%[38]), Sardinia (1/77 = 1.3%,[39] 1/22 = 4.5%[17]), the capital of Jordan, Amman (1/101=1%[40]), and Oman (1/121 = 0.8%[22]).
Haplogroup A-M13 has been found among three Neolithic period fossils excavated from the Kadruka site in Sudan.[41] [/QB]
Here xyyman pointlessly bolds each group mentioned as if he has discovered something.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
My Point. The root of the yDNA(A) is found from Southern Europe to the Levant. Yes, Khoi-San related peoples occupied North Africa, Southern Europe and the Levant.
Then he picks out a couple, disregards the rest and tries to create a migration narrative cutting out all the in between stuff to make story of how southern Europeans are Khosians. It's very silly
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
now...who is talking to himself?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Jerking off in the dark? Enjoy it! This is basic stuff.
yDNA A the basal form of the male line is found thoughout Africa and regions near Africa like Southern “European” Islands like Sardinia, Greece, Cyprus etc. Including Levant and Southern Arabia. The Berbers carry sibling or paraclades found in South Africans/Khoi-San. In addition Looking at the older PN2/E-215 again you see a similarity in paraclades between North Africans and Khoi-Sans. All this supports the view proposed by me and suggested by Coon. That Khoi-San like people probably occupied All of Africa and near by region. Dr Winters proposed that Grimaldi was Khoi-san. He may be right.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
What is he saying here? Haplogroup A found in Sardinia is specific to Sardinia and NOT Africa. Indicative of an VERY ancient presence in…… “Europe” lol! Irregardless to what you believe yDNA A is pervasive in North Africa probably going back to the Pleistocene…as Coon suggested. I was on the band wagon when I did not understand Coon…hating what I did not understand based on what other posters said about him . When I finally read his book I realize he was partly right. Ignore the labels “Caucasoid” and “Negroids”. But his general thought were on the right track. Coon clearly stated that Neolithics are either SSA from Sudan or Yemenis. Sergi suggested the same thing. He suggest the modern West Africans are part of that Neolithic package which admixed with pygmies. In other words his view is modern West Africans are part “Caucasoids” and part pygmy. See OP with Dienekess statement about an older AMH that existed in SSA and with the Sahara emerging yDNA E-M2 was pushed South.
As I said E-M2 is new to West Africa. Is the “older” population R1b-V88 which is OLDER than E-M2? I don’t know.
Are they trying to invent multi-regionalism in Africa? Clearly there was substructure.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other?
[/QB][/QUOTE]
You are not on the money, You are getting owned by Lioness. Also you are misusing the word "Paraclade".
What was previously E-M35* found in South African click speakers was resolved to a downstream mutation E-M293. Which is a subclade of E-V1515. Which is a subcalde of E-Z830. The phylogeny is as follows : M215 > M35> Z827 > Z830 > V1515 > V1486 > M293.
Berber's E-M81 is on a totally different unrelated branch that split 10's of thousands of years prior. Its Phylogeny is as follows: M215 > M35> Z827 > V257 > M81
They share the upstream E-Z827 ancestor which is the Brother clade of V68. This split happened 20-25 Thousand years ago. M293 found in South Africans brok off about 3500 years ago, POST MOTA.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] I am ALWAYS on the money but sometimes I think English is not your first language. I said E1b1b found in South Africans/Khoi_Sans are paraclades to those found in Berbers. Then you repeat what I just said like you are making a point. Who said one is ancestral to the other? I haven’t looked at the Tree for yDNA-A recently but I also believe both a siblings or paraclades.
I am always spot on!! ALWAYS. I can back up EVERYTHING I post. EVERYTHING!!!
xyyman what is wrong with you?
This shows M215/ M35 originating in the horn
downstream is M293 found in a Khoisan group although on the whole they are A and B carriers M293 is a mutation of M35 that occurred in the southern half of Africa
Many thousands of miles away and few sub clade mutations later we find M81
The root is the horn, so stop wasting people's time.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ------
As I said, don’t fugk with me if you don’t know what you are talking about. SMH.
All of Haplogroup A is not the Same just as all of E is not the same. At this point there are 4 known groups of A carriers. With an origin reaching back 300-400kya. A00 is the A* listed on the map. A1 in Red is generally West African (Senegambian) specific but pots up around the globe. A2 is generally South African specific.
That leaves A3. The old lineages shared between South Africans and East Africans. The separation time between the East African and Southern African lineages has a split time 90 Thousand years. Its somewhat similar to The maternal L0a/b/f and L0k/d that unites the East and West................Sure its "Related" but the split is pushing 100 thousand years. Much of the Haplogroup A that is found in the Mediterranean is of the East African Subclade that has a General Nile Basin/Valley spread which peaks in Nilotics.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I still don't get what point you are trying to make. You are agreeing with me. THEY ARE NOT ANCESTRAL TO ONE ANOTHER THE ARE PARAGROUPS/SIBLINGS/PARACLADES. Would you stop your childish tantrum!! And pissing contest!
The only thing I dis-agree with and would like you to provide proof is the AGES you stated?
QUOTE They share the upstream E-Z827 ancestor which is the Brother clade of V68. This split happened 20-25 Thousand years ago. M293 found in South Africans brok off about 3500 years ago, POST MOTA.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Source?
quote:Originally posted by beyoku:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ------
As I said, don’t fugk with me if you don’t know what you are talking about. SMH.
All of
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Khoisans are A and B carriers
In couple groups E was introduced from the horn to South Africa
/close thread
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I still don't get what point you are trying to make. You are agreeing with me. THEY ARE NOT ANCESTRAL TO ONE ANOTHER THE ARE PARAGROUPS/SIBLINGS/PARACLADES. Would you stop your childish tantrum!! And pissing contest!
You are misusing the term "Paraclade and Paragroups".
The term "Paraclade" or "Paragroup" denotes the Ancestral state "*" and the parental phylogeny in reference to the most recent common ancestor. WAY back, 10 years ago, at low resolution YES, we thought that Southern Africans carried the same "Paraclade" / Ancestral lineage as Horn Africans (E-M35*) hence they would be ancestral to Berber's E-M81. With more resolution this is not the case. You cannot say "PARAGROUPS/SIBLINGS/PARACLADES" because 2 of them mean the same thing while "Siblings" is mutually exclusive of other two.
Why are you still saying they are siblings? This is NOT semantics. And if you knew this infomration you wouldny make the argument you are making in reference to South African Haplogroup E.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Interesting chart. Never seen it before. But again it makes my point. Green(East Africa/South African) and Red(Maghreb) are paragroups or siblings. ONE IS NOT ANCESTRAL TO THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!! What ties this together is the Blue(Cape Verde!!!), I hope Capra is . reading this. Notice Cape Verde carry BOTH Blue and Red and not Green. Wow! See Capra. That is the smoking gun I was trying to get my hands on. As I said Cape Verde is a relict population and has nothing to do with modern European colonization. They carry both Berbers and South African colors. Did I tell you that Cape Verdeans are Berbers and a relict left over from WHG. Damn!
Bottomline, this chart not only makes my point but highlights another point I made to Capra on Davidiski. Cape Verdeans are a very ancient population. They carry Berber(Red) and South African (Blue) markers.
Source of the chart???????
edit - I got it. Yorkshire man. On it!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
wikipedia
Bearers of haplogroup A (i.e. absence of the defining mutation of haplogroup BT) have been found in Southern Africa's hunter-gatherers, especially among the San people. In addition, the most basal mitochondrial DNA lineages are also largely restricted to the San. However, the A lineages of Southern Africa are sub-clades of A lineages found in other parts of Africa, suggesting that A sub-haplogroups arrived in Southern Africa from elsewhere.[4] The two most basal lineages of Haplogroup A, A0 and A1 (prior to the announcement of the discovery of haplogroup A00 in 2013), have been detected in West Africa, Northwest Africa and Central Africa. Cruciani et al. (2011) suggest that these lineages may have emerged somewhere in between Central and Northwest Africa.[5] Scozzari et al. (2012) also supported "the hypothesis of an origin in the north-western quadrant of the African continent for the A1b [ i.e. A0 ] haplogroup".[6]
[4]Batini C, Ferri G, Destro-Bisol G, et al. (September 2011). "Signatures of the preagricultural peopling processes in sub-Saharan Africa as revealed by the phylogeography of early Y chromosome lineages
[5] Cruciani F, Trombetta B, Massaia A, Destro-Bisol G, Sellitto D, Scozzari R (June 2011). "A revised root for the human Y chromosomal phylogenetic tree: the origin of patrilineal diversity in Africa"
[6]Scozzari R, Massaia A, D'Atanasio E, et al. (2012). "Molecular dissection of the basal clades in the human Y chromosome phylogenetic tree"
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting chart. Never seen it before. But again it makes my point. Green(East Africa/South African) and Red(Maghreb) are paragroups or siblings. ONE IS NOT ANCESTRAL TO THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!! What ties this together is the Blue(Cape Verde!!!), I hope Capra is . reading this. Notice Cape Verde carry BOTH Blue and Red and not Green. Wow! See Capra. That is the smoking gun I was trying to get my hands on. As I said Cape Verde is a relict population and has nothing to do with modern European colonization. They carry both Berbers and South African colors. Did I tell you that Cape Verdeans are Berbers and a relict left over from WHG. Damn!
Bottomline, this chart not only makes my point but highlights another point I made to Capra on Davidiski. Cape Verdeans are a very ancient population. They carry Berber(Red) and South African (Blue) markers.
Source of the chart???????
Cape Verde was uninhabited when the Portuguese discovered it in 1456.
--------------------------------------------- he's nuts Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Interesting chart. Never seen it before. But again it makes my point. Green(East Africa/South African) and Red(Maghreb) are paragroups or siblings. ONE IS NOT ANCESTRAL TO THE OTHER!!!!!!!!!!
You are misusing the Term "Paragroup" ! Paragroup = ANCESTRAL.
So when you say they are paragroups, you are saying they are ancestral....Your statement is an oxymoron. Furthermore they are not "Siblings". Two brothers are Siblings. M81 and M293 USED to be Siblings.
Now, V827 is the Grandfather of E-M81 who is actually quite old. While V827 is the Great Great Grandfather of M293 who is quite young.
Dont know where you are from but:
Father Grandfather Great Grandfather Great Great Grandfather
Not siblings, Not siblings whatsoever.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I take it you don't understand the root meaning of para, paraclade or paragroup. But this is not an Reading comprehension class. sorry
Continuing ....
------ Quote from the Yorkshire study: Some historians suggest that Vikings brought captured North Africans to Britain in the 9th century. After a hiatus of several hundred years, the influence of the Atlantic slave trade began to be felt, with the first group of West Africans being brought to Britain in 1555. African domestic servants, musicians, entertainers and slaves then became common in the Tudor period, prompting an unsuccessful attempt by Elizabeth I to expel them in 1601. By the last third of the 18th century, there were an estimated 10 000 black people in Britain,3 mostly concentrated in cities such as London.
This is compatible with a Western African origin for the British chromosome, but DOES NOT POINT TO A PARTICULAR POPULATION!!!! . Using the British haplotype (11 loci) to search the Y Chromosome Haplotype Reference Database (http://www.yhrd.org) finds no matches among 15 815 chromosomes worldwide, emphasizing its rarity. Also, when the haplotypes of the other hgA1 chromosomes are used in similar searches, they find only self-matches in the populations from which they derive, underlining the scarcity and African-specificity of hgA1.
HgE3a is by far the most frequent Y-chromosomal lineage in Africa, existing at 48% in a continent-wide sample of 1122 chromosomes,30 so we would expect any substantial past immigration from Africa to Britain to have left examples of chromosomes belonging to this common hg. However, a survey of 1772 Y chromosomes from the British Isles found none,13 and they are also absent from our control sample of 421 chromosomes. The general rarity of African lineages may reflect a low level of initial introgression, later loss through drift, or sampling bias – for example
The presence of a very rare type of Y chromosome in two distinct branches of a genealogy that coalesce before the late 18th century demonstrates CLEARLY that the chromosome must have been introduced before this time.
------
Mike would have liked this piece. Hope you are reading Mike.
1. A1haplotype found in Britain is unique to this British group of people 2. It has may be an ancient presence since it is not found anywhere else besides IN Britain. Not even Africa 3. For Mike, 10,000 blacks in Britain in the 1800's but none carries E1b1a. The West African lineage. Can you say black Europeans!!! 4. Tudors tried to expel them. Remember the Tudors are imposters to the throne of England. Richard the 111 carried non-European maybe African/Yemeni lineage. But I am not a history buff. Leave that to Dr Winters and Mike.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No Lioness. I am saying, like I told Capra on Davidski. The Cape Verde WAS occupied pre-colonial times. The European historians are lying. This what the data shows. Genetics will make liar of historians. The "Blue" color found in Cape Verde and Khoi-San. Also the Cape Verde are Red NOT Green. They are Berbers admixture. I made that point to Capra awhile back WITHOUT this data. Cape Verde are a mixture of Berbers and Khoi-San. Look at the fougking chart ..fool. we are back to Khoi-San and Berbers. Like I keep saying.
Someone needs to do a deep dive on Cape Verdeans. We can't trust these lying Europeans. I said awhile back on that Shriver and Beleza study.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] No Lioness. I am saying, like I told Capra on Davidski. The Cape Verde WAS occupied pre-colonial times. The European historians are lying.
You mean the data that was gathered by Europeans?
You told Capra it was occupied before the Portugese . That makes it true because you said it?
It doesn't matter what the DNA is. Without human remains or a settlement you have no evidence so stop the nonsense
Let us know when you come up with any non-European sourced data
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary Haplogroups are arbitrary
Stop letting nomenclature fuck your head up. Saying m293 & M81 are paraclades is the equivalent of calling calling E-M90 and M125 Siblings or paraclades.... where the former is within Haplogroup D
And for all intents and purposes, A0-T found in Gambia... is ancestral to the other gambian North African and southern Europe A1a and the khosian A1b. The latter which is of course found multiple mutations downstream from the defining marker V221 separating A1b & A1a.
and once again to reiterate... this shit happened ~a tenth of a million years ago. If Cape verde an Isolated Island was occupied by A1 to which the clades we're talking about diverged, there would be an actual paraclade ONLY found there, A1c or something... and I say that with 99.9999999% confidence.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No! no! No!
My point is That chart shows essentially 3 colors(or four when zoomed in up), light blue, dark blue, green and red. The light blue seems to be Central Africa - A0. Light Green is found ONLY in East Africa and Southern Africa. Dark blue only in Southern Africa and Cape Verde. Red only Berbers and Cape Verde.
This tells me several things.
The ancestral population yes may be Central Africa But this may be remnants of a now decreased population East Africa is NOT the ancestral population. There is a clear connection between Berbers and South Africans manifested in Cape Verde. The pattern is consistent with a central Sahara ancestral population (see OP). Which dissipated with the onset of the arid Sahara. Green migrating East and South, Red migrating West, Dark Blue pushing West and South. The ancestral clade is the light blue. All others are paraclades.(ie para-llel or siblings).
Somewhat to what myself and Dienekess suggested.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: No! no! No!
My point is That chart shows essentially 3 colors(or four when zoomed in up), light blue, dark blue, green and red. The light blue seems to be Central Africa - A0. Light Green is found ONLY in East Africa and Southern Africa. Dark blue only in Southern Africa and Cape Verde. Red only Berbers and Cape Verde.
This tells me several things.
The ancestral population yes may be Central Africa But this may be remnants of a now decreased population East Africa is NOT the ancestral population. There is a clear connection between Berbers and South Africans manifested in Cape Verde. The pattern is consistent with a central Sahara ancestral population (see OP). Which dissipated with the onset of the arid Sahara. Green migrating East and South, Red migrating West, Dark Blue pushing West and South. The ancestral clade is the light blue. All others are paraclades.(ie para-llel or siblings).
Somewhat to what myself and Dienekess suggested.
I thought the Cape Verdeans were the descendants of West African slaves, not Berbers. As a result, they would reflect the West African ancestry of this group.
A West African origin for the Cape Verdeans would explain their relationship to South Africans.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No. That's my point. Lies written by Europeans. The published genetic profile of the native Cape Verdeans are ....North African. NOT West African.This chart posted by Beyoku(first Iseen it) also supports my point of view. The red is Berbers. Expanded it looks like they have a sliver of light blue. Which is very ancient humans. But clearly they are a mixture of Khoi-San and Berbers.
That tells me that what was "written" was a lie...which is not surprising. Remember Shriver and Beleza couldn't not explain the phenotype and some genotype of Cape Verdeans. They acknowledge some was due to admixture but most was unexplained.
This is the first I have seen this pie chart. Confirming what I speculate don. What remains is Autosomal/SNP studies to confirm. But these lying deceptive Europeans are not interested in that.
Keep in mind East Africans do NOT carry blue. Only Khoi-San and Cape Verdeans carry dark blue.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
All Cape Verdeans in my samplegroup consistently show “Senegal” as number 1 main region. Calculated as a ratio on average “Senegal” is almost 60% of total African ancestry, which is the highest regional ratio i’ve observed for any nationality in my study. “Mali” is convincingly appearing for Cape Verdeans as second biggest African region. “Ivory Coast/Ghana”, “Benin/Togo”, “Nigeria” “Cameroon/Congo” and “Southeast Bantu” are mainly reflecting Trace Region estimates which also include zero percent. Cape Verdeans are scoring similar group averages for “Southeast Bantu” as both African Americans and Haitians. The “North Africa” scores are also more likely to be valid even when reported as a Trace Region. how exactly did this minor proportion of “North African” DNA enter Cape Verdean bloodlines? As a popular explanation it’s usually atributed to exciled Mourisco’s or Conversos, from the earliest colonization period. judging from cultural retention it can be said that the Wolof and the Mandinga probably were most influential in Cape Verde. “North African” markers were inherited through Portuguese ancestors. it might be telling that on 23andme the Portuguese results seem to score barely any “North Africa”. The AncestryDNA results for the Fula person, showing 16% “North Africa”, points towards a second possibility. “North African” DNA markers reported for Cape Verdeans might (in part) have been inherited from the Fula people. The historical presence of the Fula in Cape Verde is well documented (e.g. see the 1856 slave census) and it’s also well known that their ancestral make up reflects a minor but sizable portion of “North African” DNA, most likely to be larger than for Portuguese. The best documented source for any “North African” DNA might come from the second wave of Jewish migration to Cape Verde.
A second parallel may be drawn with the Dominican Republic. We know that in the earliest colonization period of Hispaniola experienced slaves and also trusted servants, the socalled Ladino’s, were taken along by the Spanish settlers. As they found themselves in unfamiliar territory it makes sense they didn’t rely on African born labourers at first. Again i like to emphasize this is pure speculation on my part, but in analogy could it possibly be that the first Portuguese settlers in Cape Verde took along North African servants they already had in Portugal itself? To be sure these maternal lineages of seemingly Berber origin might also have found their way in Cape Verde through other ways, as they also have been reported to some extent for Upper Guinea itself (see this paper). Again a Fula scenario being most likely in this case. Either way it’s not too farfetched to assume that whomever left behind the Berber like mtDNA in Cape Verde would also have left behind an autosomal legacy read by AncestryDNA as “North African”.
Distribution of Y chromosomes belonging to hgA. Distribution of hgA among 4516 Y chromosomes in and around Africa, taken from the literature (see text). The colored sector of each pie chart is proportional to the frequency of subgroups of hgA, defined according to the phylogeny lower left. The gray sector in Cyprus indicates hgA chromosomes that were not further subclassified.32 The phylogeny includes selected markers referred to in the text. http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n3/full/5201771a.html?foxtrotcallback=true
Africans in Yorkshire? The deepest-rooting clade of the Y phylogeny within an English genealogy
Turi E King1, Emma J Parkin1, Geoff Swinfield2, Fulvio Cruciani3, Rosaria Scozzari3, Alexandra Rosa4, Si-Keun Lim5, Yali Xue5, Chris Tyler-Smith5 and Mark A Jobling1
We describe the presence of an hgA1 chromosome in an indigenous British male. The British male carrying the hgA1 chromosome knew of no familial African connection, and he displays a typical European appearance.
HgA is the deepest-rooting clade of the Y phylogeny, and shows a particularly specific localization to the African continent (Figure 1), which is compatible with an African origin for modern human Y chromosomes. It constitutes 5.4% of a composite sample of 3551 Africans,4, 8, 10, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 whereas in non-African indigenous populations only seven cases have been described, from Turkey,31 Cyprus,32 Sardinia33, 34 and Oman.35 Extensive surveys of Western European populations have failed to find any examples of these chromosomes.13, 36, 37, 38, 39 The subhaplogroup A1 was first reported in a single individual among a sample of 44 males from Mali.4 Subsequently, this scarce Western African hg has been found in only 25 more males (Figure 1): 2/64 Moroccan Berbers,24 3/766 African Americans,40, 41 2/39 Mandinka from Gambia/Senegal, 1/55 Malian Dogon,30 1/201 Cape Verde Islanders, 14/276 males from Guinea-Bissau,10 and 2/39 males from Niger (F Cruciani and R Scozzari, unpublished data).
Britain has a long history of contact with Africa (reviewed by Fryer2). Africans were first recorded in the north 1800 years ago, as Roman soldiers defending Hadrian's wall – 'a division of Moors'. Some historians suggest that Vikings brought captured North Africans to Britain in the 9th century. After a hiatus of several hundred years, the influence of the Atlantic slave trade began to be felt, with the first group of West Africans being brought to Britain in 1555. African domestic servants, musicians, entertainers and slaves then became common in the Tudor period, prompting an unsuccessful attempt by Elizabeth I to expel them in 1601. By the last third of the 18th century, there were an estimated 10 000 black people in Britain,3 mostly concentrated in cities such as London.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman:
There is a clear connection between Berbers and South Africans manifested in Cape Verde.
xyyman were you aware that Cape Verde has no berber groups and berber ancestry is only at trace percentages? It's not a berber country, I'm sorry to tell you.
Oral traditions passed down through the centuries among the Portuguese and the Cape Verdeans indicate that the islands were not always uninhabited. According to these stories, Sao Tiago was inhabited by Wolofs, natives of Senegal and Gambia, both west African coastal nations; and that Sal was inhabited by Lebu, Serer, the Felup. These groups were also native to the African continent. However the island was uninhabited when the Portuguese arrived.
So looking at this map haplogroup A is hardly a presence in the Maghreb where the vast majority of berbers are. The is a tiny sliver in Morocco . There is a sliver in Mali and Niger where some Tuaregs are but that sliver does not indicate it is particular to berbers, the vast majority of Mali and Niger are not berber. Tuareg in Mali are E1 carriers
Xyyman you have posted another chart which debunks you, this is embarrassing.
I don't know why you like to get all hype about these small places like Sardina and Cape Verde as if you discovered them
In Cape Verde the small sliver of blue(haplgroup A2) that is the only thing matching with Southern Africa , primarily Namibia. Cape Verde is not a berber country. It was unpopulated before the Portuguese got there but may have been populated at an earlier time.
But if you prefer "Europeans lie" there were Khosians there.
So what? Haplogroup A2 is virtually non-existant in berbers !!!
If I wanted to show that there is virtually no connection between berbers and Khosians in Southern Africa this is the map I would show. You're like a pirate with no gold. You throw a boomerang and it comes back and hits you on the back of the head.
The thing you should have picked up on is the A3 (in green) common to East Africa and to Southern Africa.
So as usual you look at the these charts and tell the wrong story about them, in fact backwards
And even if you look sat the A3 in depth
quote:
A3b2-M13 The subclade of haplogroup A3 that is commonly found in East Africa and northern Cameroon (A3b2-M13) is different from those found in the Khoisan samples and only remotely related to them (it is actually only one of many subclades within haplogroup A). This finding suggests an ancient divergence. In Sudan, haplogroup A3b2-M13 has been found in 28/53 = 52.8% of Southern Sudanese, 13/28 = 46.4% of the Nuba of central Sudan, 25/90 = 27.8% of Western Sudanese, 4/32 = 12.5% of local Hausa people, and 5/216 = 2.3% of Northern Sudanese. In Ethiopia, one study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2-M13 in 14.6% (7/48) of a sample of Amhara and 10.3% (8/78) of a sample of Oromo. Another study has reported finding haplogroup A3b2b-M118 in 6.8% (6/88) and haplogroup A3b2*-M13(xA3b2a-M171, A3b2b-M118) in 5.7% (5/88) of a mixed sample of Ethiopians, amounting to a total of 12.5% (11/88) A3b2-M13. Haplogroup A3b2 also has been observed occasionally outside of Central and Eastern Africa, as in the Aegean Region of Turkey (2/30 = 6.7%), Yemenite Jews (1/20 = 5%), Egypt (4/147 = 2.7%, 3/92 = 3.3%), Palestinian Arabs (2/143 = 1.4%), Sardinia (1/77 = 1.3%, 1/22 = 4.5%), the capital of Jordan, Amman (1/101=1%), and Oman (1/121 = 0.8%).
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Is this "homemade" with crayons? But seriously , what study is this from?
You do realize that it shows Cape Verdeans are primarily North African(Berbers) if Mali is part of North Africa. Infact mostly North African and South African and WA Bantu being a minority. You did look at the chart before you posted it?
quote: "To be sure these maternal lineages of seemingly Berber origin might also have found their way in Cape Verde through other ways, as they also have been reported to some extent for Upper Guinea itself (see this paper). Again a Fula scenario being most likely in this case. Either way it’s not too farfetched to assume that whomever left behind the Berber like mtDNA in Cape Verde would also have left behind an autosomal legacy read by AncestryDNA as “North African”."
You keep making my point for me Lioness
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Cape Verdeans are a mixture of Berbers/indigenous North Africans and Khoi-Sans with traces amount of West Africans.
Oh! Can anyone tell me what they mean by South East Bantus? After all think the supposed Bantu expansion. lol!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] Is this "homemade" with crayons? But seriously , what study is this from?
You do realize that it shows Cape Verdeans are primarily North African(Berbers) if Mali is part of North Africa. Infact mostly North African and South African and WA Bantu being a minority. You did look at the chart before you posted it?
Do you realize almost everything you say is wrong? If this chart was grouping Malians as North Africans they would be included in the red potion.
Tuareg, the berbers of Mali live in Northern Mali and they are E3 carriers 90% of Malians are not berbers and they live in the southern Mali.
So you are wrong on two different levels
Silly man Cape Verde has a population of about a half a million and they are not a berber country and don't even have a berber group minority. So are you going to proceed with any more of you extremely silly remarks about berbers?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
No fool. There is a reason why the authors grouped Mali NOT a part of "Bantu". It is deception. They did not group them with North Africa either. Don't understand and recognize European deception as yet?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: No fool. There is a reason why the authors grouped Mali NOT a part of "Bantu". It is deception. They did not group them with North Africa either. Don't understand and recognize European deception as yet?
No it is your deception. Malians are not Southern, the category on the chart is SOUTHERN BANTUS iit s not simply "bantus." Southern bantus are of South Africa, Botswana, and Mozambique.
Look at the rest of the chart, Cameroon, Nigeria, that is proto bantu homeland !
And no, they are not Southern bantus either.
Read me carefully now. What you are calling deception is self deception. (Newbies careful of this guy)
And yet another dimension to your foolery is that that sliver of A in Mali is A1 ( in red) It is not even the South African A !
recap:
- Cape Verde was unoccupied when the Portuguese arrived.
- The Portuguese brought slaves there
- There are no berber groups in Cape Verde
- Most Cape Verdians are not A carriers
- the berbers in Mali are the Tuareg E1 carriers
- 90% of Malians live in the southern part of Mali
- LESS THAN 1% OF MALIANS ARE TUAREG
__________________________
^^ let it sink in
Any DNA analysis shows that berbers have some of the least in common with Khoisans compared to other Africans Even a child can see that
What you do is you have a preconceived notion and then you go about trying to CP* information to fit it. It's called "confirmation bias"
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^^ lol! is that your wish Lioness?
"Any DNA analysis shows that berbers have some of the least in common with Khoisans compared to other Africans Even a child can see that "
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
The exact implications being made by the socalled “Mali” region are quite uncertain (see AncestryDNA regions). But it seems meaningful that “Mali” is convincingly appearing for Cape Verdeans as second biggest African region. It’s perhaps also telling that the range of the “Mali” scores only goes to a maximum of 27,5%, while it’s median score of 11,6% shows its consistency. Implying it’s a significant ancestral component but always minor and in addition to “Senegal”. I suppose it may suggest widerranging Upper Guinean origins beyond strictly Senegambia. I will discuss this in more detail in the third section below.
• Surprisingly also minor contributions are showing up for both Lower Guinea and Central Africa. This is unexpected when going by Cape Verde’s geographical location and what historical sources have documented about slave trade patterns between Cape Verde and the mainland (see “Cabo Verde, Raizes na Africa“). These sources clearly describe the area in between Senegal and Sierra Leone as practically the only provenance zone for African captives brought to Cape Verde safe for some individuals who came on atypical slave voyages from further away. Some of these persons, mainly from Ghana, Benin, Angola and Congo, have been documented. See charts in section 5 where all the non-Upper Guinean references have been highlighted with red arrows. Judging from the existing data (1856 slave census and slave registers from Fogo/Santiago) they were a very small minority, probably around 1% and at most 5%, but certainly not 25% as suggested by the AncestryDNA findings. Their bloodlines can be expected to have diluted quickly so it’s a rather puzzling outcome. I’m personally not aware of any genetical studies in support of any degree of non-Upper Guinean origins for Cape Verdeans. The two studies i have already referenced both suggesting a completely Senegambian mtDNA profile. This outcome also seems hard to explain when going by the cultural traditions of Cape Verde which only show Upper Guinean influences in its Creole culture for all i know (see also “African retentions in Cape Verdean Culture & Language“).
• First thing to consider is that scores for “Ivory Coast/Ghana”, “Benin/Togo”, “Nigeria” “Cameroon/Congo” and “Southeast Bantu” are mainly reflecting Trace Region estimates which also include zero percent. Also given other limitations of the AncestryDNA analysis it might therefore perhaps be premature to speculate on what these findings might really represent or how robust they might be. They might merely be reflecting generic West African DNA markers which cannot be distinguished yet with greater reliability. Or it could be a misreading of ethnic origins from especially Sierra Leone. Probably only an update of AncestryDNA reference populations might bring more clarity or else comparing with the AncestryDNA results of actual Upper Guineans (to verify if they also show other regions besides “Senegal” and “Mali”) .
• At this stage we might however already note that especially the average score for “Southeast Bantu” seems like it’s a valid finding above “noise” level. Also taking into account the median and the min./max. range. It becomes even clearer when comparing with the results from other parts of the Afro-Diaspora as Cape Verdeans are scoring similar group averages for “Southeast Bantu” as both African Americans and Haitians (see also Afro-Diaspora AncestryDNA results: A Comparison). I suppose it might be possible then that captives brought from other parts of Africa, especially Angola and Mozambique, were more frequent in Cape Verde than recorded by history. If so this research outcome would be the first genetical confirmation of such a Palops connection! However there might also be other explanations. For more discussion see the fifth section.
• The average findings for the “North Africa” region are much more in line with what you would expect, given Cape Verde’s history and geographical location. The “North Africa” scores are also more likely to be valid even when reported as a Trace Region. Afterall “North African” scores are also showing up for Cape Verdeans in other types of DNA testing and DNA studies. So in this way no surprises. However there’s still the remaining question of how exactly did this minor proportion of “North African” DNA enter Cape Verdean bloodlines? As a popular explanation it’s usually atributed to exciled Mourisco’s or Conversos, from the earliest colonization period. However there might also be other scenarios at play. For more discussion see section 4.
• Cape Verdeans can be expected to be a very closely interrelated people across the islands because of their shared history. But it might still be useful to study any of the seemingly small differences occuring between the various islands. As it could tell us more about which ethnic groups might have been involved in the settlement of each island to a possibly greater degree than elsewhere. Genetic differentation between the northern islands (“Barlavento”) and the southern ones (“Sotavento”) has already been reported in DNA studies (see “DNA Evidence“). And it has been correlated with “a common origin in Santiago, followed by differentiation through genetic drift and subsequent input of independent external migrations” (Beleza et al., 2012).
The last chart i posted above is obviously providing only the beginnings of a very rough outline of any possible interisland differences, due to very limited sampling. Only a bigger samplegroup would reveal the patterns more clearly. Also despite relative isolation in earlier generations nowadays Cape Verdeans, especially the ones who have migrated, are much more likely to intermarry with people from other islands. Sofar i haven’t really come across any spectacular island-specific differences when it concerns solely the African breakdown. Except perhaps for these findings (again very preliminary due to samplesize!): •Each island has “Senegal” as biggest region, but calculated as ratio of total African ancestry “Senegal” seems to peak sofar in Fogo, while it’s lowest in Brava. It might suggest something about the composition of Upper Guinean origins being more or less homogenous or restricted to Senegambia proper. Notice also how the Brava islanders among my samplegroup scored the highest “Mali” on average. •None of the Lower Guinean or Central African regions seem to be islandspecific. Except for “Cameroon/Congo” which clearly peaks among the 5 samples from Santo Antão and even more so for the one result from São Nicolau. Again much caution should be applied when interpreting this outcome but it might be an ancestral hint that somehow people of Congolese or (northern) Angolan origin were present in the northern islands to a relatively greater degree than elsewhere and left a minor yet detectable genetical legacy diffused among the general population. However keeping all options open it could also be something specific for only these 6 samples and reflecting unique lines in their family trees. Possibly even involving intermarriage with (mixed-race or black) Brazilians who are also likely to be carrying these Central African DNA markers. •“North Africa” shows the highest scores sofar among the 5 samples from Brava. On 23andme i have also kept track of North African (MENA) scores for Cape Verdeans. (see this online spreadsheet). And similarly i found that it was on average higher for people from Fogo and Brava. It could be due to a founding effect from the earliest colonization period. However in part it might also be correlated with their generally larger European ancestry. For more discussion see section
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That's the problem. You don't read before you post.
Cape Verde ancestry cannot be explained based on even "recorded" history.
Cape Verdeans are North Africans an South Africans.
[ 26. August 2017, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As I said, these lying deceptive Europeans. To the newbies notice the author has Mali in "". The author is also confused by what is "Mali". These foukginh Europeans are messed up! Lies and deceptions. Cannot be trusted.
Quote:
The exact implications being made by the socalled “Mali” region are quite uncertain (see AncestryDNA regions). But it seems meaningful that “Mali” is convincingly appearing for Cape Verdeans as second biggest African region. It’s perhaps also telling that the range of the “Mali” scores only goes to a maximum of 27,5%, while it’s median score of 11,6% shows its consistency."
It’s unfortunate that Ancestry.com hasn’t made public sofar (afaik) the ethic background of the samples they used for the “Mali” region"
------
Mali is North Africans which aligns with the Uniparental markers. They are jokers.
OH! FYI they removed or filtered "European" ancestry for the write up. READ THE REPORT!!!!!!
I know all the deceptive techniques used by these lying Europeans
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: That's the problem with you fools. You don't read before you post.
Cape Verde ancestry cannot be explained based on even "recorded" history.
Cape Verdeans are North Africans an South Africans.
The Cape Verdeans are related to South Africans because of the early spread of LOd into West Africa 100kya.
LOd is the oldest haplogroup (1-4). This haplogroup is primarily carried by the Khoisan people (1-2,4). It is also found among Niger-Congo speakers in East Africa (4) and we find LOa in West Africa (3). In this paper we will examine and discuss the demic diffusion of LOd across the African continent into West Africa. This is important because we discuss an early expansion of carriers of LOd from East Africa to West Africa before the exit of homo sapien sapiens from Africa.
Haplogroup LOd predicts a significant period of time for anatomically modern humans (amh) living in Africa to spread across the continent. The existence of the LOd haplotype AF-24 among Senegalese supports this view. AF-24 is an ancient haplotype associated with LOd .
The TMRCA of LOd dates to 106kya. As a result, anatomically modern humans (amh) had plenty of time to spread this haplogroup to Senegal. In West Africa the presence of amh date to the Upper Palaeolithic (6). The archaeological evidence makes it clear that amh had ample opportunity to spread LOd to West Africa during this early period of demic diffusion.
The earliest evidence of human activity in West Africa is typified by the Sangoan industry (7). The amh associated with the Sangoan culture may have deposited Hg LOd in Senegal thousands of years before the exit of amh from Africa. Anatomically modern humans arrived in Senegal during the Sangoan period. Sangoan artifacts spread from East Africa to West Africa between 100-80kya. In Senegal Sangoan material has been found near Cap Manuel (6), Gambia River in Senegal (8-9); and Cap Vert (7). The distribution of the Sangoan culture supports the demic diffusion of LOd into the Senegambia over 100kya.
The presence of these genes among the West Africans, led to its presence in Cape Verde when the slaves were shipped to the Island by the Portuguese.
Statistics can tell us very little about the phylogeography of any given population. You need archaeological evidence to prove the phylogeography of any given population's historical migrations.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
2% modern European canNOT account for a 70% admixed population!!! These people are more similar to Paupans with a light complexion. Think WHG with Neolithic light skin.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Cape Verdeans are a mixture of Berbers/indigenous North Africans and Khoi-Sans with traces amount of West Africans.
Oh! Can anyone tell me what they mean by South East Bantus? After all think the supposed Bantu expansion. lol!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Syntax of Cape Verdean Creole: The Sotavento varieties By Marlyse Baptista
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
All lies....
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Syntax of Cape Verdean Creole: The Sotavento varieties By Marlyse Baptista
[ 28. August 2017, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The Syntax of Cape Verdean Creole: The Sotavento varieties By Marlyse Baptista
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
recap
Northern Africa Population: 232,857,173
Berbers 36 million
The Maghreb where most berbers are
^^ It's so very simple to see, A2 and A3 are in Southern Africa (green and blue) but nowhere in berber country except a tiny sliver in Morocco. So what we learn about the story of A in Africa s that it is found primarily in Southern and Eastern Africa with small amounts in West Africa/Sahel (A1) . Northern mali has some Tuareg but they are E3 carriers
/close thread
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I told you the genetic evidence shows in may have been occupied prior to modern Europeans coming upon it. In fact. I believe it may have been part of continental Africa at one time just as the Canaries. Or well within boating distance. In fact there may have been a land mass connecting parts of West Africa, Canary Islands and Atlantic Europe. That would explain the unexplainable. "whatever remains must be the truth". That is the only explanation for geographic distribution of R1b-M269 and the presence of yDNA-A and mtDNA in Atlantic Europe. It will also explain the distribution of more West African lineage in Portugal vs North African lineage in Spain. Yes, anyone who reads up on genetics will know what I am talking about. There phylogeographical patterns on the Iberian peninsular.
The real question is the age of A1, A2 and A3? I am reading this correctly. A3 should be the youngest. Am I correct Beyoku?
Oh! And the other map shows a connection between North Africa and South Africa using E1b1b just as y-DNA A. Not that E1b1b is over 50Ky old and y-DNA A is over 100K. Unlike E1b1a which is closer to 7k years old.
[ 28. August 2017, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I told you the genetic evidence shows in may have been occupied prior to modern Europeans coming upon it.
the genetic evidence does not show Cape Verde in may have been occupied prior to modern Europeans coming upon it despite you saying it over and over.
it only shows is that they found some A2 there
If Cape Verde was occupied by Wolof people prior to the Europeans it doesn't matter because they may have been gone by the time the Europeans arrived so it doesn't matter if the Island was occupied before the Europeans. It matters if they were STILL THERE when the Portuguese arrived.
But what does it matter if there were some there before the Portuguese? If we are talking about Berbers, Berbers don't carry A2
A2 is only relevant to places where there is A2 !!!
So stop the nonsense. The Cape Verde islands are an isolated place, how are they even relevant to other regions except in the age of shipping trade?
And now you are brining up M269 trying to change the subject. M269 has nothing to do with A2
So again, stop the nonsense
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
My point is . The Cape Verde is where BOTH South African/Khoi-San and North African(Berbers) yDNA-A is found(dark blue and red). Of course there may be more areas that have not been sampled as yet. In Addition Cape Verdean other uniparental markers are more consistent with North Africans and Europeans NOT SSA or West Africans. The R1b labeled as R1b is most likely R1b-V88 but no high resolution testing was performed so the assumption was these were modern Portuguese R1b-M269. Which I doubt it is. So we back to Cape Verde carry ancient lineage. Plus based upon what you posted. There is no "documented' historical explanation for the genetic makeup of modern Cape Verdeans. Modern West Africa autosomal markers frequency are insignificant. These people are NOT descendants of West African slaves or modern Europeans. There are remnants of an ancient population connected to North African ad Pre-Neolithic Europeans/WHG. I am sure if the BAM files of La Brana and Loschbour was available and a comparison was done with Cape Verde, they will match may be more closely(to European HG) then modern North Africans and Modern Europeans. TheMaster, how about it?
To those who don't know. Canary Islanders carry MORE La Brana markers than North Africans. I assume Cape Verdeans will carry even more than Canary Islanders since they are more isolate and phenotypically very much like La Brana. Black skin with light eyes.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: These people are NOT descendants of West African slaves or modern Europeans.
The R1b labeled as R1b is most likely R1b-V88 but no high resolution testing was performed so the assumption was these were modern Portuguese R1b-M269. Which I doubt it is.
The vast majority of Cape Verdeans are E1b1a and R1b not of haplogroup A.
Did you know that?
Most of the people are a mix of AfricaN and European similar in a sense to Brazilians but by now more African.
If an African from Cameron carried R1b-V88 they could have ancestors brought to Cape Verde as a slave. So somebody carrying V88 does not mean they did not have slave ancestors
La Brana is of haplogroup C, has nothing to do with any of this
The genetic makeup of the Canary Islands is quite different than Cape Verde
So again all these things you want to be connected to tell a preconceived story you made up are not connected in the way you want them to be.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Another example that you don't know what you are talking about. The vast majority of Cape Verdeans are R1b - 42%, North African J1, E1b1b and G is 29%. E1b1a only makes up 18%. Do the research fool. I posted on this on ESR. Cape Verdeans are NOT West Africans they are North Africans and Africans probably carrying R1b-V88. Like Villabruna man.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ people ignore this no primary sources cited
quote:
The most frequent haplogroup in the total sample is R1b1b2 (R-M269) (42.7%), followed by E1b1a (18.8%); for all other haplogroups, frequencies are lower than 10%. R1b1b2 is the most common lineage in European populations, with frequencies ranging from 20% to 80% at the continental level [42] and from 59% to 66% in the Iberia Peninsula [43], [34]. E1b1a is typical of Africa, comprising ∼60–85% of NRY lineages in sub-Saharan populations, and specifically 81–85% in West African populations
--- The Admixture Structure and Genetic Variation of the Archipelago of Cape Verde and Its Implications for Admixture Mapping Studies Sandra Beleza 2012
.
so it's you who doesn't know what you are talking about, that 18% E1b1a is the highest frequency E clade there and the R1b is M269
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Lol! You are such a clown. You just repeated what I just posted. I said 18% E1b1a, E1b1b-M35 is 15% add J and G takes it up to 29% North African. Then there is R1b (?). Cape Verdeans do NOT carry a majority West African lineage of E1b1a. Stop the BS.
I am digging into R1b-92R7. Which is not only found on Cape Verde but the R1b-92R7 is also found in throughout coastal West Africa. Like Guinea Bissau and.....Mali!!!! tic! Toc! Cite the source? He! He! He!
I do not know enough about the mutation 92R7 to break it down.
Cape Verdean male lineage is majority North African and "European" NOT West African. The "European" lineage of above 42% is unbelievable and impossible. That R1b needs to be deeply analyzed.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [Q] ^ people ignore this no primary sources cited
[QUOTE]
The most frequent haplogroup in the total sample is R1b1b2 (R-M269) (42.7%), followed by E1b1a (18.8%); for all other haplogroups, frequencies are lower than 10%. R1b1b2 is the most common lineage in European populations, with frequencies ranging from 20% to 80% at the continental level [42] and from 59% to 66% in the Iberia Peninsula [43], [34]. E1b1a is typical of Africa, comprising ∼60–85% of NRY lineages in sub-Saharan populations, and specifically 81–85% in West African populations
--- The Admixture Structure and Genetic Variation of the Archipelago of Cape Verde and Its Implications for Admixture Mapping Studies Sandra Beleza 2012 [/Q].
so it's you who doesn't know what you are talking about, that 18% E1b1a is the highest frequency E clade there and the R1b is M269 [/QB]
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
2nd to Bottom line are the individuals sampled at the very bottom percentage of the total, of each haplogroup
As we can see at left we have the hap A individual - that's ONE PERSON, lol that is far less than one percent !!!
Cape Verde is not in between Africa and Europe it's off the coast of Senegal, is an isolated place with few natural resources of little consequence to Africa or Europe. Populations did not originate on islands.
So why you are so hyped about it like you discovered it and it is some key to something is pure silliness
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^ :rolleyes:
The maternal genetic make-up of the Iberian Peninsula between the Neolithic and the Early Bronze Age - Anna Szécsényi-Nagy1 2017
---- Quote: Some of the Iberian Neolithic mtDNA haplogroups (U2, N*, N1a) are not observed in the successive Chalcolithic Iberian population (n=156), whereas others maintain a steady frequency (V, T2, X) throughout 3500 years. An interesting exception is haplogroup L1b in the Late Chalcolithic Central Iberia at the site Camino de las Yeseras (n. 57 on Fig. 1), near Madrid. This group is most frequent in today’s West-Central Africa65, and hints at a connection to the North-West African coasts in prehistoric times ------
Also - keep in mind Eva Fernandez found at least 50% SSA lineage in pre-historic Iberians. This is not talked about much. And she was not the only one.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
