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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:

VISUAL SCIENCE—Visual Science and the RAS Institute of Ethnology and Anthropology, with support from the All-Russian Science Festival "Nauka 0+", have reconstructed the faces of the Sungir people—Homo sapiens who lived 30,000 years ago in Central Russia and are believed to be ancestors of today's Northern and Eastern Europeans. The new virtual reality 3D animation brings the Sungir people to life. The scientifically accurate visualization is based on skeletal remains from the Sungir site, one of the northernmost Paleolithic settlements in Europe, as well as data from previous efforts to reconstruct the Sungir people's appearance.

What is Sungir?

Located in the Vladimir region of central Russia, Sungir is by far the northernmost prehistoric settlement of early modern humans in Europe. It was first excavated by archaeologists in 1956.
More than 80,000 cultural and household artifacts have been found at the site, which is believed to have been a seasonal hunting camp. Many are made from mammoth bones, Arctic fox canines and stone. Beads, pendants, zoomorphic figurines, engravings and clothing have been among the findings.
Remains of nine people have been discovered at the site. The best-preserved belonged to two siblings, aged approximately 10 and 13. These were used to create the VR 3D animation.
Decades of research on the Sungir site have advanced our understanding of human development, migration, and the cultures of Paleolithic Europe.

http://popular-archaeology.com/issue/fall-2017/article/30-000-year-old-sungir-homo-sapiens-visualized-for-the-first-time-in-3-d-virtual-reality

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Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
The reconstruction is obviously modified to make them look like contemporary white Russians, I think it was xyman who made the statement but these folks are supposed to be related to the makrani who don't look like that. Here is a bust of the same people,the son doesn't look the same.
http://img.2r.ru/geo_objects/2013/08/6c8e21af48dbf31a3609a59f39bafe7f.jpg
 
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
The reconstruction is obviously modified to make them look like contemporary white Russians, I think it was xyman but these folks are supposed to be related to the makrani who don't look like that. Here is a bust of the same people,the son doesn't look the same.
http://img.2r.ru/geo_objects/2013/08/6c8e21af48dbf31a3609a59f39bafe7f.jpg

True. I noticed the same.
 
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
 
(per Jack at AAT)
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Duf1220 is the driver of brain size.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3511999/

This graph is helpful to understand our significant increase over other primates.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/08/our-big-human-brains-may-depend-on.html?m=1

To understand how mammals have a significant advantage over the dinosaurs, reptiles and birds which have zero duf1220

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/230841831_Evolutionary_History_and_Genome_Organization_of_DUF1220_Protein_Domains/figures?lo=1

Humans have increased over a great deal of time and there are more duf1220 the closer one gets to the NorthEast of Eurasia.  That means the original ancestor appeared there and slowly migrated west and south.  Each aquatic barrier thins the CNVs, hence the lowest levels would be seen the the farther one goes away from point of origin.

Indigenous peoples of South Africa would have few number of copy number variation because they have been slowly culled over time.  Much like successive breeding in domesticated animals.  

Eventually humans hit the sweet spot for social intelligence.  Neanderthal had too many at 350 and could not form society, rather would exist in tight single family groups.  These skeletons were robust (Gorilla like) with archaic features. 

Population boomed in the form of large tribes and this new body plan, a highly social group construct (with smaller brains and gracile bone structure).  These groups slowly sucked up the indigenous groups in Eurasia and caused our modern society.  That is why Asian and Europeans have ancient autosomal genes (800,000 to 2.4million years) as well as many genes that have never been in Africa.

This is the most parsimonious explanation for our genome, CNVs, Endogenous viruses and archaic features in our modern population. 
(per Jack)
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
The reconstruction is obviously modified to make them look like contemporary white Russians, I think it was xyman but these folks are supposed to be related to the makrani who don't look like that. Here is a bust of the same people,the son doesn't look the same.
http://img.2r.ru/geo_objects/2013/08/6c8e21af48dbf31a3609a59f39bafe7f.jpg

True. I noticed the same.
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The old and new reconstructions look so similar to me, the newer one was hardly worth doing


quote:


Makrani population showed a high genetic diversity (0.9688) and, consequently, a high power of discrimination (0.9592). Our results revealed a strongly admixed mtDNA pool composed of African haplogroups (28%), West Eurasian haplogroups (26%), South Asian haplogroups (24%), and East Asian haplogroups (2%),

In our population data, we observed African haplogroups (28%) including L2a1b1a (11%), L2a1 (5%), L3d1a1a (3%), L2ba1 (1%), L3f1b4a (1%), L4b2a2 (1%), M1a1 (1%), L0a1b (1%), L1c2a1a (1%), L4b2b1 (1%), L2a1a2 (1%), L0a2a2 (1%); West Eurasian haplogroups (26%) including U7a (6%), T1a8a (5%), U5b (2%), J1d (2%), HV2a (2%), T1a7 (1%), U4c1 (1%), U4‘9(1%), J1b1b (1%), W6 (1%), T2 (1%), T1a103 (1%), J2a2 (1%), J1b1a1 (1%); South Asian haplogroups (24%) including R2 (6.0%), R30a1b (5%), M3 (3%), M4 (3%), U2b1 (3%), M3a1 (1%) M6a1b (1%), M18a (1%), U2a (1%); and one East Asian haplogroup, F3b1 (2%). The remaining 20% mtDNA of the sampled individuals could not be confidently assigned a continental origin.

-- Genetic characterization of the Makrani people of Pakistan from mitochondrial DNA control-region data
Muhammad Hassan Siddiqi, 2014

quote:


http://exhibitions.nypl.org/africansindianocean/essay-south-asia.php


Pakistan
Many of the Africans brought into the Indian subcontinent entered through the ports of Baluchistan and Sindh, where they worked as dockworkers, horse-keepers, domestic servants, agricultural workers, nurses, palanquin carriers and apprentices to blacksmiths and carpenters. In 1851, the linguist Sir Richard Burton, who served in the British Army in Sindh, noted how up to 700 Bambasi, Habshi and Zangibari—all Africans—were imported annually into neighboring Baluchistan. Females were in greater demand and were priced at around 50 pounds, while children were bartered for grain, cloth and other goods. Much of the vocabulary used by the Afro-Sindhi descendants of these migrants is a modified Swahili. For instance, the word for shield in Swahili, ngao, is gao among the Afro-Sindhi; the word for moon (or one month) in Swahili, mwesi, is moesi in Afro-Sindhi.

Pakistan has the most people of African descent in South Asia. It has been estimated that at least a quarter of the total population of the Makran coast is of African ancestry—that is, at least 250,000 people living on the southern coast of Pakistan, which overlaps with southeastern Iran, can claim East African descent. Beginning in 1650 Oman traded more heavily with the Lamu archipelago on the Swahili coast and transported Africans to the Makran coast. As a result, today many Pakistani of African descent are referred to as Makrani, whether or not they live there. On the coast they are also variously referred to as dada, sheedi and syah (all meaning black), or alternatively, gulam (slave) or naukar (servant). The children of Sindhi Muslim men and sidiyani (female Africans) are called gaddo—as in half-caste. The population geneticist Lluis Quintana-Murci of the Pasteur Institute in Paris found that more than 40 percent of the maternal gene pool of the Makrani is of African origin.


I don't know why you bring up the Makrani. there is no connection between the Marani and Sungir
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
"…all Africans—were imported annually into neighboring Baluchistan"

These people claim to have ancestry going being that time. They claim lineage going back the Neolithic period, not some recent slave trade. That perhaps may took place, but doesn't define all the people.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
"…all Africans—were imported annually into neighboring Baluchistan"

These people claim to have ancestry going being that time. They claim lineage going back the Neolithic period, not some recent slave trade. That perhaps may took place, but doesn't define all the people.

The Makrani group in Pakistan have cultural traditions suggesting descent from African slaves as well as genetic data showing an average 25% African ancestry.

That means that they are 3/4 on average South Asian and on that basis could claim lineage going back the Neolithic period.

There are native people in India with features that resemble African or Australian, why would they be focused in the same area that is known for African slave input?

Also people living in an area for hundreds of years sometimes claim they were always there.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
[QB] The reconstruction is obviously modified to make them look like contemporary white Russians,

No, not all. Except for the eye fold the man's features are predominately Asian and could also cross over to some types in Africa.
There are a lot of Chinese and other Asians in Russia but the majority of Russians do not look Asians and do not resemble this reconstruction


As we know Asians could have this light skin tone or darker skin tones.

I would not consider the estimation on the skin tone in this reconstruction to be that reliable
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
The Makrani group in Pakistan have cultural traditions suggesting descent from African slaves as well as genetic data showing an average 25% African ancestry.

The Makrani people don't claim their African lineage is from enslavement. That is being done by non-Makrani.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
That means that they are 3/4 on average South Asian and on that basis could claim lineage going back the Neolithic period.

Because they do, but this is not about them.

quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
There are native people in India with features that resemble African or Australian, why would they be focused in the same area that is known for African slave input?

Yes, and some do and some do not have ancestry of enslaved Africans. It's all a bit more complicated. Ya' Digg?


quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:

Also people living in an area for hundreds of years sometimes claim they were always there.

Also, anywhere where a Black people have been found classical anthropologist of European origin claimed that were there descendants of slaves. A completely baseless claim anyhow. Because in their mind they couldn't phantom a people living there already for thousands of years.


'We are Iranians': Rediscovering the history of African slavery in Iran


What history and genetics shows is that they have been absorbed by surrounding populations.
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
The reconstruction is obviously modified to make them look like contemporary white Russians, I think it was xyman but these folks are supposed to be related to the makrani who don't look like that. Here is a bust of the same people,the son doesn't look the same.
http://img.2r.ru/geo_objects/2013/08/6c8e21af48dbf31a3609a59f39bafe7f.jpg

I don't know why you bring up the Makrani. there is no connection between the Marani and Sungir
^

this what I said in 2017 and I'm saying the same thing now I don't know why you bring up the Makrani. There is no special connection between the Makrani and Sungir

So I don't want to continue on that tangent unless someone post legit sources
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


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SUNGIR

Sungir is a large early Upper Paleolithic site discovered on the outskirts of the city of Vladimir near Moscow in the 1950's


Ancient genomes show social and reproductive behavior of early Upper Paleolithic foragers

Martin Sikora1,*, Andaine Seguin-Orlando1,*, Vitor C. Sousa2,3,4, Anders Albrechtsen5, Thorfinn Korneliussen1, Amy Ko6, Simon Rasmussen7, Isabelle Dupanloup2,3, Philip R. Nigst8, Marjolein D. Bosch9,10, Gabriel Renaud1, Morten E. Allentoft1, Ashot Margaryan1,11, Sergey V. Vasilyev12, Elizaveta V. Veselovskaya12, Svetlana B. Borutskaya13, Thibaut Deviese14, Dan Comeskey14, Tom Higham14, Andrea Manica15, Robert Foley1,16, David J. Meltzer1,17, Rasmus Nielsen1,5, Laurent Excoffier2,3, Marta Mirazon Lahr1,16, Ludovic Orlando1,18, Eske Willerslev1,19,20,†

See all authors and affiliations
Science 03 Nov 2017:

To investigate whether the contemporary HG strategy was already present in the Upper Paleolithic, we used complete genome sequences from Sunghir, a site dated to ~34,000 years before the present, containing multiple anatomically modern human individuals.

We screened six of the Sunghir individuals (SI to SVI) to assess DNA preservation

Together with mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome haplogroups (W3a1 and I2a1b2, respectively), these data indicate that SVI is not associated with the Upper Paleolithic burials at the site; SVI was therefore excluded from further analyses.

Analyses of mtDNA genomes place SI to SIV in haplogroup U, consistent with West Eurasian and Siberian Paleolithic and Mesolithic genomes (9) (fig. S7 and table S5). SI belongs to haplogroup U8c; the sequences for the three individuals from the double burial (SII to SIV) are identical and belong to haplogroup U2, which is closely related to the Upper Paleolithic Kostenki 12 (8) and Kostenki 14 (10) individuals. Phylogenetic analyses of the Y chromosome sequences place all Sunghir individuals in an early divergent lineage of haplogroup C1a2 (fig. S8 and tables S12 to S15). Y chromosome haplogroup C1, which is rare among contemporary Eurasians, has been found in other early European individuals, including the ~36,000-year-old Kostenki 14 (11).

These results suggest that the people at Kostenki were at least partially replaced by later groups related to Sunghir, which exhibit genetic affinities with individuals of the Gravettian culture, which extended to Western Europe.
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Yes we know all that. The point I raised was about the cranial features of the two adolescents, especially the boy with his so-called "negroid" features. Grimaldi Man of Italy (26-22kya) possessed even more pronounced such features.

By the way, what subtype of C1a did the boy possess?
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
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Drawings of the Sunghir burials. Left: Sunghir 1 (Su1) in Grave 1. Right: Sunghir 2 (Su2) and 3 (Su3) in Grave 2, with the Sunghir 4 femoral diaphysis by the left arm of Sunghir 2. Modified from O. N. Bader (1998: Plates 1, 9). Reproduced courtesy of N. O. Bader.  -
 
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
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Funny how despite his features Sungir 2(?) is never described as "negroid" or "australoid".
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:
Originally posted by Thereal:
The reconstruction is obviously modified to make them look like contemporary white Russians, I think it was xyman but these folks are supposed to be related to the makrani who don't look like that. Here is a bust of the same people,the son doesn't look the same.
http://img.2r.ru/geo_objects/2013/08/6c8e21af48dbf31a3609a59f39bafe7f.jpg

I don't know why you bring up the Makrani. there is no connection between the Marani and Sungir
^

this what I said in 2017 and I'm saying the same thing now I don't know why you bring up the Makrani. There is no special connection between the Makrani and Sungir

So I don't want to continue on that tangent unless someone post legit sources

Hmm?

~Sikora et al., Science 358, 659–662 (2017) 3 November 2017

Ancient genomes show social and reproductive behavior of early Upper Paleolithic foragers
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
". A similar pattern is seen using 3-population tests of the form used to document admixture in Northern Europe by Patterson et al. (2012)2. For San ascertained data, except in the case of Orcadians, when f3(X; Sardinian, Karitiana) was significantly negative there was also a significantly negative score for f3(X; Sardinian, Han). Mozabite, Bedouin, Palestinian, Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Kalash, Makrani, Pathan and Sindhi populations were investigated in this analysis, in addition to the European populations. This suggests that the signal for admixture in Europe is not specific to Native Americans as a candidate source population, in agreement with the study by Patterson et al. (2012)"
~Maanasa Raghavan, 20 November 2013
Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans (supplement)
https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/nature/journal/v505/n7481/extref/nature12736-s1.pdf
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
However, as for M1, minor N North-African influences have been detected by the presence of an U6 lineage in our Saudi sample. It has been suggested that the rare U9 clade might be another interesting exception because it has been detected only in Pakistan [26], Ethiopia, and Yemen [19], and now in our Saudi sample. U9 occurs frequently only among the Makrani population in Pakistan, which is characterized by a large component of sub-Saharan African lineages, suggesting that U9 lineages in Pakistan might also have an African origin [19]. Makrani sub-Saharan Africa lineages have exact matches in Africa, which is compatible with a recent conection as the result of the East African slave trade [26]. However, the entire sequenced Ethiopian and Pakistani U9 lineages [37] are separated by a mean of 4.5 coding mutations from the common root, placing the split at Paleolithic times. Most probably, Ethiopia received its U9 lineages from the Arabian Peninsula that, in turn, received them from northern areas. The southern geographic distribution of U9 contrasts with the west-northern distribution U4, of its sister clade [52], but this is a pattern shared with other Paleolithic U radiations such as U2, U7 [32], or U8 [53] that have eastern and western branches. [54] .
~Kivisild et al
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^ So you purposely leave out the title of the last article which mentions U9

title of above article:
Eurasian and African mitochondrial DNA influences in the Saudi Arabian population

but U9 is not one of the haplogroups found at Sungir
so that tactic is not working

_______________________________________
 
Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
 
I wonder how dark-skinned they would have been. I do imagine the very first generation of Homo sapiens to enter Europe c. 50-40 kya to have retained dark skin and other African adaptations. On the other hand, 30 kya seems a reasonable date for them to start evolving towards reduced pigmentation, stockier builds, and other cold/high-latitude adaptations, at least in far northern Europe (IIRC, dark-skinned Mesolithic Europeans like Cheddar Man might represent a later migration from further south in Europe following the end of the LGM).
 
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
darkness or lightness is something worth wondering about?
 
Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
darkness or lightness is something worth wondering about?

Why are you even posting in a thread about how prehistoric humans would have looked if you think those aren't worth "wondering about"?
 
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ So you purposely leave out the title of the last article which mentions U9

title of above article:
Eurasian and African mitochondrial DNA influences in the Saudi Arabian population

but U9 is not one of the haplogroups found at Sungir
so that tactic is not working

_______________________________________

We are reading between the lines. It's all about collecting, verifying and comprising data. This is very similar to Law and Forensics.


quote:


After the dispersal of modern humans Out of Africa, around 50–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4 or earlier based on fossil evidence5, hominins with similar morphology to present-day humans appeared in the Western Eurasian fossil record around 45–40 ky cal BP, initiating the demographic transition from ancient human occupation [Neandertals] to modern human [Homo sapiens] expansion on to the continent1"

[...]

The haplogroup of PM1 falls within the U clade [Fig. 1B and Supplementary Table 3], which derived from the macro-haplogroup N possibly connected to the Out of Africa migration around 60–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4. In line with this, the Peştera cu Oase individual that lived on the current territory of Romania, albeit slightly earlier than PM1 [37–42 ky cal BP] also displays haplogroup N9.



~Hervella, Scientific Reports volume 6, Article number: 25501 (2016)
 
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