In 1996, Bryan Sykes of Oxford University first sequenced the mitochondrial DNA of Cheddar Man, with DNA extracted from one of Cheddar Man's molars. Cheddar Man was determined to have belonged to Haplogroup U5, a branch of mitochondrial Haplogroup U, which has also been found in other Mesolithic human remains.[3][4] Sykes obtained DNA from the 9,000-year-old Cheddar Man's tooth and from a 12,000-year-old tooth found from the same cave.[5]
Bryan Sykes's research into Cheddar Man was filmed as he performed it in 1997. As a means of connecting Cheddar Man to the living residents of Cheddar village, he compared mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) taken from 20 living residents of the village to that extracted from Cheddar Man’s molar. He found two people who shared the same mtDNA as Cheddar Man, because around 10% of Europeans belong to Haplogroup U5.[6] They, like anyone else carrying haplogroup U5 today, share an ancestor with Cheddar Man of many thousands of years ago through his maternal line.[7][8]
However, the Cheddar Man results have never been subjected to peer review in an academic journal. It has been suggested that the sequence was from contaminating modern DNA
Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
quote:The analysis also ruled out an ancestral link with individuals inhabiting Gough’s Cave 5,000 years earlier, who appear to have performed grisly cannibalistic rituals, including gnawing on human toes and fingers – possibly after boiling them – and drinking from polished skull cups.
Has aDNA from the other Gough's Cave individuals been examined for pigmentation alleles? Because, if this Cheddar guy had more or less the same physical appearance as the people living in Iberia during the same time period, I'm thinking he might be descended from migrants from that area of Europe.
Posted by tropicals redacted (Member # 21621) on :
“[T]he research team found genetic markers that showed skin pigmentation usually associated with sub-Saharan Africa, suggesting a totally different look for humans in Britain 10,000 years ago.”
Who is the skeleton? what is his DNA results for pigmentation. No Europeans were white until about 2000BC. All aDNA results confirm this. You know you are out of your league?
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Sometimes I wonder if scientists ever bother to read about other DNA results of ancient humans:
First off if he carry U5 he is NOT Middle Eastern he is indigenous Hunter gatherer from Euro-Africa-Fulani. Middle Easterners do not really carry U5
Again I am right…. ----- Nice find Brada. You would of thought I wrote the piece. Lol!
The only thing I take exception to is they suggest a "middle Eastern" origin of this black man Englishman. That is a lie. Again they are trying to distance themselves from Africa. It is geographically improbable for him to be from the "Middle East". He is African/North African. They affirm, as I, for some reason Europeans remained black until the Neolithics arrived. Within the last 5000years.
Quote: "The discovery shows that the genes for lighter skin became widespread in European populations far later than originally thought – and that skin colour was not always a proxy for geographic origin in the way it is often seen to be today." "The results pointed to a Middle Eastern origin for Cheddar Man, suggesting that his ancestors would have left Africa,"
there is going to be a paper in a couple weeks apparently. i guess he will be pretty much like Loschbour.
Posted by Elite Diasporan (Member # 22000) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Sometimes I wonder if scientists ever bother to read about other DNA results of ancient humans:
Now what does this have to do with THIS BRITON man?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Europedia
The age of haplogroup U5 is uncertain at present. It could have arisen as recently as 35,000 years ago, or as early was 50,000 years ago. U5 appear to have been a major maternal lineage among the Paleolithic European hunter-gatherers (known as Cro-Magnons), and even the dominant lineage during the European Mesolithic. In two papers published two months apart, Posth et al. 2016 and Fu et al. 2016 reported the resultts of over 70 complete human mitochondrial genomes ranging from 45,000 to 7,000 years ago. The oldest U5 samples all dated from the Gravettian culture (c. 32,000 to 22,000 years before present), while the older Aurignacian samples belonged to mt-haplogroups M, N, R* and U2. Among the 16 Gravettian samples that yieled reliable results, six belonged to U5 - the others belonging mostly to U2, as well as isolated samples of M, U* and U8c. Two Italian Epigravettian samples, one from the Paglicci Cave in Apulia (18,500 ybp), and another one from Villabruna in Veneto (14,000 ybp), belonged to U5b2b, as did two slightly more recent Epipaleolithic samples from the Rhône valley in France. U5b1 samples were found in Epipalaeolithic Germany, Switzerland (U5b1h in the Grotte du Bichon) and France. More 80% of the numerous Mesolithic European mtDNA tested to date belonged to various subclades of U5. Overall, it appears that U5 arrived in Europe with the Gravettian tool makers, and that it particularly prospered from the end of the glacial period (from 11,700 years ago) until the arrival of Neolithic farmers from the Near East (between 8,500 and 6,000 years ago).
wikipedia
Haplogroup U is a human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup (mtDNA). The clade arose from haplogroup R, likely during the early Upper Paleolithic. Its various subclades (labelled U1–U9, diverging over the course of the Upper Paleolithic) are found widely distributed across Northern and Eastern Europe, Central, Western and South Asia, as well as North Africa, the Horn of Africa, and the Canary Islands. Haplogroup U5 is found in small frequencies and at much lower diversity in the Near East and parts of northern Africa (areas with sizable U6 concentrations), suggesting back-migration of people from Europe toward the south.
Cheddar man reconstruction
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I was about to create a thread with the Black Cheddar man Great Britain but tropical redacted beat me to it. I think this is a rare honest representation of a prehistoric Briton and European showing him to be a Black person. I think only a minority of Prehistoric Black European had black skin with straight hair and blue eyes, the majority of Black Prehistoric Black Europeans had Black skin with woolly hair and dark eyes.
I think the majority of Europeans were Brown and black people who originally migrated to Europe from Africa and West Asia until 500 to 800 CE when the Central Asian or Russian White barbarian (foreigner in Ancient Greek) migrated and invaded Eastern and Western Europe by the millions. Thats why in Medieval and Renaissance (Even Colonial) European history there was the strange case of Black and Brown royal family and Nobility (nicknamed monkey) representing the 1% ruling over a majority (70%) White population.
Face of the first Briton is revealed: DNA analysis shows 10,000-year-old man had 'dark to black' skin with BLUE eyes and curly hair - and is related to one in 10 of today's Brits The bones are the oldest near-complete human skeleton ever found in Britain and were unearthed in 1903 Researchers extracted DNA data from bone powder by drilling a 2mm hole through the skull's inner ear bone It showed that there was a 76 per cent chance that Cheddar Man was ‘dark to black’ by today's standards Research suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles developed white skin later on than thought
The first ancient Britons had black skin, dark curly hair and blue eyes, DNA tests show. The findings were made by genetic tests carried out for the first time on the bones of ‘Cheddar Man’ who died 10,000 years ago. The bones are the oldest near-complete human skeleton ever found in Britain
Scientists said yesterday they were surprised to discover that the earliest Briton would be considered ‘black’ if he lived today. The research suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles developed white skin later on than previously thought
Britain at the time of Cheddar Man, around 10,000 years ago, was very different from today. An Ice Age had just finished and the land had become green again. Perhaps in pursuit of game, hunter gathering tribes swept in from what is now continental Europe across a land bridge across the North Sea – known as Doggerland
For more than 100 years, scientists have tried to reveal Cheddar Man’s story, posing theories as to what he looked like, where he came from and what he can tell us about our earliest ancestors. This image shows researchers responsible for the creation of the new bust
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Not all ancient Europeans had dark skin. Northern Europeans hunter-gatherers had white skin, blonde and blue eyes:
Motala Man is dated to 7700 and is the oldest remains in Northern Europe to have DNA extracted. How old white skin is in Northern Europe? NO ONE REALLY KNOWS.
He looks just like this Indian: Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Populations of ancient Europe: Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Light skin was taken by the Middle Eastern Farmers into South and Central Europe about 8000 years ago, although white skin originated separately in Northern Europe.
[ 20. August 2018, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]
Posted by tropicals redacted (Member # 21621) on :
The image on Mena’s post of the facial reconstruction in front of the steps at the Natural History Museum, the one with the Dutch twins who worked on the project, gives an accurate representation of the mannequin’s skin colour.
Again: “[T]he research team found genetic markers that showed skin pigmentation usually associated with sub-Saharan Africa, suggesting a totally different look for humans in Britain 10,000 years ago.”
Which evidence concluded that he had the white-skin gene? They made a bust for cheddar man as he was white, then with genetics proved that he was black.
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Light skin was taken by the Middle Eastern Farmers into South and Central Europe about 8000 years ago, although white skin originated separately in Northern Europe.
[ 20. August 2018, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]
Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
I don't agree with Cedar man slighted curly hair. But, i did not expected the British would given him his original Afro hair, because of their geopolitical and racial ambitions.
Therefore, I do agree with his eyes and skin colors.
Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
There are only one people in Africa that still carried their genetic blue eyes color. They are the Xhosa people.
Therefore, was the Xhosa people ancient ancestors that migrated to British Isles ten thousand years ago.
In fact, when european settlers arrived in South Africa, and they saw the Xhosa people blue eyes, they went on to write a book, saying the Xhosa people blue eyes ancestors was a Scandinavian princess,which was taken to Africa by a large sea wave thousands of years ago before Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Hofmyer the 35,000year old African
Cheddar man - the 10000year old European.
Lol! Dinkum the racialist! Go figure..lol!
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
It is obvious now that the 67% of Britons who carry R1, carry the genes becauser of their Black ancestors
Now we can see why the ancient Europeans were carrying V88. They carried the haplogroup because they were Blacks from Africa.
Toomas Kivisild1 (2017).The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA. web page
The article is interesting. It is most interesting because it places V88 in ancient Europe. It is sad that researchers fail to publish this reality.
Kivisild (2017) also made it clear that V88 is the earliest offshoot of R-M343 .
quote:
Late Neolithic, Early Bronze Age and Iron Age samples from Central and Western Europe have typically the R1b-L11, R1a1-Z283 and R1a-M417 (xZ645) affiliation while the samples from the Yamnaya and Samara neighbourhood are different and belong to sub-clades R1b11-Z2105 and R1a2-Z93 (Allentoft et al. 2015; Cassidy et al. 2016; Haak et al. 2015; Mathieson et al. 2015; Schiffels et al. 2016).
The R1b11-Z2015 lineage is today common in the Caucasus and Volga-Uralic region while being virtually absent in Central and Western Europe (Broushaki et al.2016). Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 subclade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7).
The presence of the carriers of V88 in Europe makes it clear that Sub-Saharan Africans had been in Europe for an extended period of time. Moreover it is clear that 25kya SSAs carrying haplogroup R1 were in Eurasia, Africa and the Americas. .
.
The presence of V88 in Europe indicates that thousands of years before the Yamnaya and Bell Beaker people carried R1 into Europe, there were Sub-Saharan Africans in Europe. It indicates that the Bell Beaker people who entered Europe from Morocco via Iberia were carriers of V88, was just one among many groups of Blacks who early settled Europe and remained supreme in Europe until fairly recent times.
.
Posted by Autshumato (Member # 22722) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: He had dark to black skin, THEY DONT REALLY KNOW and probably looked like LABRANA MAN of Spain:
Sometimes I wonder where you learned math and topology?
First modern Britons 10,000 years ago vs 7700 year old Northern European.
I think your IQ is low. This confirms that jared taylor is wrong on his claims.
Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians
quote: Summary
The driving force behind the transition from a foraging to a farming lifestyle in prehistoric Europe (Neolithization) has been debated for more than a century 1, 2 and 3. Of particular interest is whether population replacement or cultural exchange was responsible 3, 4 and 5. Scandinavia holds a unique place in this debate, for it maintained one of the last major hunter-gatherer complexes in Neolithic Europe, the Pitted Ware culture [6]. Intriguingly, these late hunter-gatherers existed in parallel to early farmers for more than a millennium before they vanished some 4,000 years ago 7 and 8. The prolonged coexistence of the two cultures in Scandinavia has been cited as an argument against population replacement between the Mesolithic and the present 7 and 8. Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region. Our findings support hypotheses arising from archaeological analyses that propose a Neolithic or post-Neolithic population replacement in Scandinavia [7]. Furthermore, our data are consistent with the view that the eastern Baltic represents a genetic refugia for some of the European hunter-gatherer populations.
I completely agree with Mr. Winters. Actually, I have been studying and followed the Paleolithic and Neolithic Art works of two groups of Subsaharan Africans from Congo and Namibia to Chad, then they went to Morocco, and from there they crossed the Gibraltar Strait into Spain where they started the Bell Beaker culture. That's why I don't believe at all, that Middle Eastern returned to Africa during paleolithic time, because by that time, two new groups of African Humans exited Africa to Europe, and not otherwise.
Dinkum, wants to imposed their old white supremacist theories upon us. He remind me Hazel Crampton book - "The Sunburnt Queen", written in 1730s. The book is about a seven year old blue eyed Scandinavian migrant to England girl who was washed by a sea wave up on the "Wild Coast of South Africa" and was adopted by her rescuers. She grew to be a woman of astounding beauty and wisdom and became the Great Wife of a Xhosa tribal prince. That's how European settlers brain washed Africans and Africans settlers, to make them to believe they had the rights to African people lands and natural resources.
I suggest Dinkum, to search for DNA tests results, about the origin of blue eyes done by Johannes Krause of the University of Tübingen, Germany, and David Reich of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, which related to a group of African blue eyes people migrating into Europe between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago. They were the Xhosa people of South Africa. They settled in Europe in their way to the British Isles. And that's was how blue eyes gene was introduced in Europe, and not how from Ukraine, Russia, of Caucasus regions.
Actually, the most beautiful blue eyes in the world are from the original African Xhosa people. All children born with blue eyes, has a beautiful dark blue color, and large round eye shape. Contrary of the majority of Europeans that in fact, does not have dark blue eyes, they have hazel color eyes, and more toward to mongoloid shape eyes, them African round eyes. A minority of white Europeans inherited the beautiful color and eyes shape of Color people.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: Interesting, but not that surprising. Seems to have cleaned up on this site, but would have been entertaining to get the reactions of the racists!
quote: Levantine cranium from Manot Cave (Israel)foreshadows the first European modern humans
Owing to the scarcity of human fossils from this period, these ancestors of all present-day non-African modern populations remain largely enigmatic. Here we describe a partial calvaria, recently discovered at Manot Cave (Western Galilee, Israel) and dated to 54.7 ± 5.5 kyr BP (arithmetic mean ± 2 standard deviations) by uranium–thorium dating, that sheds light on this crucial event.
— Israel Hershkovitz et al.
Nature volume 520, pages 216–219 (09 April 2015) doi:10.1038/nature14134
quote: The study on the partial calvarium discovered at Manot Cave, Western Galilee, Israel (dated to 54.7 ± 5.5 kyr BP, Hershkovitz et al. 2015), revealed close morphological affinity with recent African skulls as well as with early Upper Paleolithic European skulls, but less so with earlier anatomically modern humans from the Levant (e.g., Skhul). The ongoing fieldwork at the Manot Cave has resulted in the discovery of several new hominin teeth. These include a lower incisor (I1), a right lower first deciduous molar (dm1), a left upper first deciduous molar (dm1) and an upper second molar (M2) all from area C (>32 kyr) and a right upper second molar (M2) from area E (>36 kyr). The current study presents metric and morphological data on the new Manot Cave teeth. These new data combined with our already existing knowledge on the Manot skull may provide an important insight on the Upper Paleolithic population of the Levant, its origin and dietary habits.
— Rachel Sarig ; Israel Hershkovitz et al.
The Upper Paleolithic inhabitants of Manot Cave: the dental perspective (Year: 2017)
These people live in the regio, till this day and time.
(I post these images, so you have a better perspective)
Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
I completely agree with Mr. Winters. Actually, I have been studying and followed the Paleolithic and Neolithic Art works of two groups of Subsaharan Africans from Congo and Namibia to Chad, then they went to Morocco, and from there they crossed the Gibraltar Strait into Spain where they started the Bell Beaker culture. That's why I don't believe at all, that Middle Eastern returned to Africa during paleolithic time, because by that time, two new groups of African Humans exited Africa to Europe, and not otherwise.
Dinkum, wants to imposed their old white supremacist theories upon us. He remind me Hazel Crampton book - "The Sunburnt Queen", written in 1730s. The book is about a seven year old blue eyed Scandinavian migrant to England girl who was washed by a sea wave up on the "Wild Coast of South Africa" and was adopted by her rescuers. She grew to be a woman of astounding beauty and wisdom and became the Great Wife of a Xhosa tribal prince. That's how European settlers brain washed Africans and Africans settlers, to make them to believe they had the rights to African people lands and natural resources.
I suggest Dinkum, to search for DNA tests results, about the origin of blue eyes done by Johannes Krause of the University of Tübingen, Germany, and David Reich of Harvard Medical School in Boston, Massachusetts, which related to a group of African blue eyes people migrating into Europe between 40,000 and 10,000 years ago. They were the Xhosa people of South Africa. They settled in Europe in their way to the British Isles. And that's was how blue eyes gene was introduced in Europe, and not from Ukraine, Russia, of Caucasus regions.
Actually, the most beautiful blue eyes in the world are from the original African Xhosa people. All children born with blue eyes, has a beautiful dark blue color, and large round eyes shape. Contrary of the majority of Europeans that in fact, do not have dark blue eyes, they have hazel color eyes, and more toward to mongoloid shape eyes, then Xhosa people round eyes. Only a minority of white Europeans inherited the beautiful color and eyes shape of the Xhosa people.
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Xhosa and other black Africans do not have blue eyes. Its super rare for a Black African to have blue eyes. The Cheddar Man and others like him in Europe, only migrated into Europe 11 000 years ago. Probably the reason why they still had dark skin. They also likely interbred with the original hunter - gatherers in Europe who already had blue eyes.
This Cro-Magnon is actually a recreation of a FRENCH CRO-MAGNON:
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Xhosa and other black Africans do not have blue eyes. Its super rare for a Black African to have blue eyes. The Cheddar Man and others like him in Europe, only migrated into Europe 11 000 years ago. Probably the reason why they still had dark skin. They also likely interbred with the original hunter - gatherers in Europe who already had blue eyes.
This Cro-Magnon is actually a recreation of a FRENCH CRO-MAGNON:
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Xhosa carry E1B1A. Guess what??? Europeans DO NOT.
Haplogroup E1B1A is 25 000 years old and is said to have originated in Ethiopia, although there are some scientists claiming Haplogroup E originated in Eurasia and was brought back into Africa. After all DE, the ancestor of E is EURASIAN IN ORIGIN.
This is LABRANA MAN who is like related to Cheddar Man
HAPLOGROUPS OF LABRANA MAN:
Haplogroup C6 (SOUTH ASIAN IN ORIGIN)
MTDNA U5b2c1 (WEST ASIAN IN ORIGIN)
Yip Im sure LaBrana Man and Cheddar Man resemble a Xhose person
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
This lie that Europeans are the only peoples with blue, green eyes, red, blonde hair and white skin needs to die. These traits are found throughout Asia and North Africa.
The first peoples in Asia to turn white were Central Asians. DNA taken from the Middle Eastern Neolithic Farmers shows they had light skin dark hair and eyes. White skin developed separately in Northern Europe.
By 5000 years the Middle Eastern Farmers had over run Europe
[ 20. August 2018, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
This is the Oase Man who originally was created by Richard Neave as a black African.
Since then, DNA has been taken from the 37 000 year old Oase individual which shows he was an ASIAN in origin. He also had about 9 = 11% Neanderthal DNA:
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Luzia woman found in Brazilian and who Afrocentric idiots love to claim was a black African HAS BEEN DEBUNKED. She was closely related to the Aimore people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman
Aimore people the descendants of Luzia woman
Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
Haplogroup R1A originated in Eurasia. There is no definite proof where it originated, BUT IT LIKELY ORIGINATED IN IRAN or Central Asia:
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Xhosa carry E1B1A. Guess what??? Europeans DO NOT.
Haplogroup E1B1A is 25 000 years old and is said to have originated in Ethiopia, although there are some scientists claiming Haplogroup E originated in Eurasia and was brought back into Africa. After all DE, the ancestor of E is EURASIAN IN ORIGIN.
This is LABRANA MAN who is like related to Cheddar Man
HAPLOGROUPS OF LABRANA MAN:
Haplogroup C6 (SOUTH ASIAN IN ORIGIN)
MTDNA U5b2c1 (WEST ASIAN IN ORIGIN)
Yip Im sure LaBrana Man and Cheddar Man resemble a Xhose person
quote:The genotypic combination leading to a predicted phenotype of dark skin and non-brown eyes is unique and no longer present in contemporary European populations.
Figure 2 | Ancestral variants around the SLC45A2 (rs16891982, above) and SLC24A5 (rs1426654, below) pigmentation genes in the Mesolithic genome. The SNPs around the two diagnostic variants (red arrows) in these two genes were analysed. The resulting haplotype comprises neighbouring SNPs that are also absent in modern Europeans (CEU) (n5112)1 but present in Yorubans (YRI) (n5113). This pattern confirms that the La Bran ̃a 1 sample is older than the positive-selection event in these regions. Blue, ancestral; red, derived.
— Lalueza-Fox
In layman terms:
quote:Lalueza-Fox states: "However, the biggest surprise was to discover that this individual possessed African versions in the genes that determine the light pigmentation of the current Europeans, which indicates that he had dark skin, although we can not know the exact shade."
Although the lineage containing this haplotype must have originated in Africa, C3 is rare in Africa (1.0% in MKK) but widely distributed in East Asia, the New World, and Oceania.
[...]
Frequencies display strong population differentiation, with the derived light skin pigmentation allele (A111T) fixed or nearly so in all European populations and the ancestral allele predominant in sub-Saharan Africa and East Asia (Lamason et al. 2005; Norton et al. 2007).
[...]
Phased haplotypes were retrieved from HapMap, Release 21. For phylogenetic analysis, graphs were drawn by the use of a simple nearest-neighbor approach and rooted by the use of ancestral alleles determined by comparison with other primate sequences.
[...]
"Of the remaining 10 common core haplotype groups, all ancestral at rs1426654, eight clearly have their origins in Africa (Figure 3B, Figure 4, and Table S4). Three early diverging haplotypes, C1, C2, and C4, are rare outside of Africa and clearly originated there."
"In the lineage containing the majority of haplotypes, each of the three branches, containing C5, C6-C7, and C8-C11, give strong evidence of having originated in Africa. C5 reaches its greatest abundance in West Africa and is rare outside of Africa. Within the other two branches, C6 and C9, which are the most common haplotypes in Africa, are also common worldwide, whereas C7 is abundant in East Asia and much less common but widespread in Africa. "
[...]
Our dating for this haplotype is consistent with a non-African origin. The most likely location for the origin of C11 is, therefore, within the region in which it is fixed or nearly so. As both models for the origin of C11 imply that C3 and C10 were present in ancestors of Europeans, the observed and inferred distributions of these autosomal haplotypes are consistent with the single-out-of- Africa hypothesis derived using uniparental markers (Oppenheimer 2003; Macaulay et al. 2005).
--Victor A. Canfield et al. Molecular Phylogeography of a Human Autosomal Skin Color Locus Under Natural Selection 2013
This one is bonkers,
quote:Introduction
After the dispersal of modern humans Out of Africa, around 50–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4 or earlier based on fossil evidence5, hominins with similar morphology to present-day humans appeared in the Western Eurasian fossil record around 45–40 ky cal BP, initiating the demographic transition from ancient human occupation [Neandertals] to modern human [Homo sapiens] expansion on to the continent1"
[...]
The haplogroup of PM1 falls within the U clade [Fig. 1B and Supplementary Table 3], which derived from the macro-haplogroup N possibly connected to the Out of Africa migration around 60–70 ky cal BP1,2,3,4. In line with this, the Peştera cu Oase individual that lived on the current territory of Romania, albeit slightly earlier than PM1 [37–42 ky cal BP] also displays haplogroup N9.
—Hervella et al. 2016
quote:A non-random distribution of haplogroups U5 in the Fula group, the U6 among the “Brame” linguistic family and M1 in the Balanta-Djola group, suggests a correlation between the genetic and linguistic affiliation of Guinean populations. The presence of M1 in Balanta populations supports the earlier suggestion of their Sudanese origin. Haplogroups U5 and U6, on the other hand, were found to be restricted to populations that are thought to represent the descendants of a southern expansion of Berbers. Particular haplotypes, found almost exclusively in East-African populations, were found in some ethnic groups with an oral tradition claiming Sudanese origin.
—Alexandra Rosa et al.
MtDNA Profile of West Africa Guineans: Towards a Better Understanding of the Senegambia Region
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Haplogroup R1A originated in Eurasia. There is no definite proof where it originated, BUT IT LIKELY ORIGINATED IN IRAN or Central Asia:
Sure,
quote:‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).
[...]
Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).
[...]
Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
(TIF) Haplogroup affiliation for 51 Y chromosomes Table S1 analyzed in this study. (XLS)
--Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
quote:The population of AMH spreading in the eastern direction included “softened” Mongoloid elements. The “dialectal continuum” consisting of Proto-Uralic, Proto-Altaic and Palaeo-Siberian- related languages formed the principal communication media of Early Modern Humans in northern Eurasia.
--Pavel M. DOLUKHANOV
Japan Review, 2003, 15:175-186 Archaeology and Languages in Prehistoric Northern Eurasia
quote:"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."
--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007
Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations
The Mal'ta boy didn't fell from the sky, onto Siberia near Lake Baikal?
quote: deepest branching separates A1b from a monophyletic clade whose members (A1a, A2, A3, B, C, and R) all share seven mutually reinforcing derived mutations (five transitions and two transversions, all at non-CpG sites).
[…]
The phylogenetic relationships we observed among chromosomes belonging to haplogroups B, C, and R are reminiscent of those reported in the tree by Karafet et al.13 These chromosomes belong to a clade (haplogroup BT) in which chromosomes C and R share a common ancestor (Figure 2).
--Fulvio Cruciani
A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
quote: When counting from the split of hg DE on the unrooted phylogenetic tree, MA-1 is determined to be carrying the derived allele in 183 sites and the ancestral allele in 1706 sites. The position of MA-1 on the phylogenetic tree is established by the state of the 313 basal mutations separating hgs DE and R, where MA-1 has 143 informative positions. Of these, 138 are in the derived and 5 in the ancestral state, placing MA-1 as a lineage basal to hg R.
With only a few exceptions characterized below, all other informative positions in MA-1 are in the ancestral state, further supporting the phylogenetic positioning of MA-1 on the tree.
[…]
Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans
Nature 505, 87–91 (02 January 2014) doi:10.1038/nature12736
Received 14 July 2013 Accepted 04 October 2013 Published online 20 November 2013
I'm not saying this next one is the ultimate evidence, but it does show a migration pattern correlating with the tested time schedule.
quote:The lack of Late Pleistocene human fossils from sub-Saharan Africa has limited paleontological testing of competing models of recent human evolution. We have dated a skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, to 36.2 ± 3.3 thousand years ago through a combination of optically stimulated luminescence and uranium-series dating methods. The skull is morphologically modern overall but displays some archaic features. Its strongest morphometric affinities are with Upper Paleolithic (UP) Eurasians rather than recent, geographically proximate people. The Hofmeyr cranium is consistent with the hypothesis that UP Eurasians descended from a population that emigrated from sub-Saharan Africa in the Late Pleistocene.
--F. E. Grine et al.
Late Pleistocene Human Skull from Hofmeyr, South Africa, and Modern Human Origins
Science 12 Jan 2007: Vol. 315, Issue 5809, pp. 226-229 DOI: 10.1126/science.1136294
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Haplogroup R1A originated in Eurasia. There is no definite proof where it originated, BUT IT LIKELY ORIGINATED IN IRAN or Central Asia:
.
quote: An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.
Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?
How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).
—Fulvio Crucian et al. A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes
However in the 2011 paper they found chromosomes to be matching, which lacked presence in prior studies, thus the phylogenetic needed a reevaluation. And the painful conclusions can be read, in more recent papers published by Fulvio Crucian et al.
quote: In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.
—Fulvio Cruciani et al. A Revised Root for the Human Y Chromosomal Phylogenetic Tree: The Origin of Patrilineal Diversity in Africa
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Luzia woman found in Brazilian and who Afrocentric idiots love to claim was a black African HAS BEEN DEBUNKED. She was closely related to the Aimore people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman
Aimore people the descendants of Luzia woman
I’m not making any claims. I’m just putting it out there.
quote:Comparative morphological studies of the earliest human skeletons of the New World have shown that, whereas late prehistoric, recent, and present Native Americans tend to exhibit a cranial morphology similar to late and modern Northern Asians (short and wide neurocrania; high, orthognatic and broad faces; and relatively high and narrow orbits and noses), the earliest South Americans tend to be more similar to present Australians, Melanesians, and Sub-Saharan Africans (narrow and long neurocrania; prognatic, low faces; and relatively low and broad orbits and noses). However, most of the previous studies of early American human remains were based on small cranial samples. Herein we compare the largest sample of early American skulls ever studied (81 skulls of the Lagoa Santa region) with worldwide data sets representing global morphological variation in humans, through three different multivariate analyses. The results obtained from all multivariate analyses confirm a close morphological affinity between South-American Paleoindians and extant Australo-Melanesians groups, supporting the hypothesis that two distinct biological populations could have colonized the New World in the Pleistocene/Holocene transition.
—Neves WA1, Hubbe M. roc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2005 Dec 20;102(51):18309-14. Epub 2005 Dec 12. Cranial morphology of early Americans from Lagoa Santa, Brazil: implications for the settlement of the New World. .
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
Tell, do you think that recreated man was tropical adapted in body portions and limb ratios?
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: 5000 year old Italian recreated:
quote:Using a genome-wide single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) panel, we observed population structure in a diverse group of Europeans and European Americans. Under a variety of conditions and tests, there is a consistent and reproducible distinction between “northern” and “southern” European population groups: most individual participants with southern European ancestry (Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and Greek) have >85% membership in the “southern” population; and most northern, western, eastern, and central Europeans have >90% in the “northern” population group.
[ 20. August 2018, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Elmaestro ]
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by mena7: I was about to create a thread with the Black Cheddar man Great Britain but tropical redacted beat me to it. I think this is a rare honest representation of a prehistoric Briton and European showing him to be a Black person. I think only a minority of Prehistoric Black European had black skin with straight hair and blue eyes, the majority of Black Prehistoric Black Europeans had Black skin with woolly hair and dark eyes.
I think the majority of Europeans were Brown and black people who originally migrated to Europe from Africa and West Asia until 500 to 800 CE when the Central Asian or Russian White barbarian (foreigner in Ancient Greek) migrated and invaded Eastern and Western Europe by the millions. Thats why in Medieval and Renaissance (Even Colonial) European history there was the strange case of Black and Brown royal family and Nobility (nicknamed monkey) representing the 1% ruling over a majority (70%) White population.
Face of the first Briton is revealed: DNA analysis shows 10,000-year-old man had 'dark to black' skin with BLUE eyes and curly hair - and is related to one in 10 of today's Brits The bones are the oldest near-complete human skeleton ever found in Britain and were unearthed in 1903 Researchers extracted DNA data from bone powder by drilling a 2mm hole through the skull's inner ear bone It showed that there was a 76 per cent chance that Cheddar Man was ‘dark to black’ by today's standards Research suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles developed white skin later on than thought
The first ancient Britons had black skin, dark curly hair and blue eyes, DNA tests show. The findings were made by genetic tests carried out for the first time on the bones of ‘Cheddar Man’ who died 10,000 years ago. The bones are the oldest near-complete human skeleton ever found in Britain
Scientists said yesterday they were surprised to discover that the earliest Briton would be considered ‘black’ if he lived today. The research suggests the first inhabitants of the British isles developed white skin later on than previously thought
Britain at the time of Cheddar Man, around 10,000 years ago, was very different from today. An Ice Age had just finished and the land had become green again. Perhaps in pursuit of game, hunter gathering tribes swept in from what is now continental Europe across a land bridge across the North Sea – known as Doggerland
For more than 100 years, scientists have tried to reveal Cheddar Man’s story, posing theories as to what he looked like, where he came from and what he can tell us about our earliest ancestors. This image shows researchers responsible for the creation of the new bust
Just saw this picture of Miles Davis and it was reminiscent of Cheddar man.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by tropicals redacted: Interesting, but not that surprising. Seems to have cleaned up on this site, but would have been entertaining to get the reactions of the racists!
Newsflash: ALL humans originally had black skin as the species originated in Africa.
From all the sources I've read, Cheddar Man had alleles for dark skin but the question is exactly how dark?? Was he as dark as say modern day some Middle Easterners or north Indians who would be classified as "brown" or did he have a chocolate brown complexion of a Nigerian??
I think this rush to paint him as 'black' is part of the revival of the Eurafrican or Hamitic hypothesis that is black skinned Caucasians, in an effort to claim Egypt and North Africa at large.
Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I think this rush to paint him as 'black' is part of the revival of the Eurafrican or Hamitic hypothesis that is black skinned Caucasians, in an effort to claim Egypt and North Africa at large.
I dunno, if it hypothetically turned out to be the case that Eurasian admixture in (early) AE and other ancient North Africans was coming from populations that resembled the Cheddar Man reconstruction, I doubt the Euros would be totally happy. He'd still be darker and less K-zoid looking than the tan or pale look they desire for ancient northern Africans.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Luzia woman found in Brazilian and who Afrocentric idiots love to claim was a black African HAS BEEN DEBUNKED. She was closely related to the Aimore people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman
Aimore people the descendants of Luzia woman
---
The woman reminds me of the Andamanese. Do the Aimore have that "pseudo-Andamanese" gene sequence like some other Brazilians eg. Surui?
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
Eve of Naharon
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
quote:Originally posted by Dinkum: Luzia woman found in Brazilian and who Afrocentric idiots love to claim was a black African HAS BEEN DEBUNKED. She was closely related to the Aimore people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman
Aimore people the descendants of Luzia woman
---
The woman reminds me of the Andamanese. Do the Aimore have that "pseudo-Andamanese" gene sequence like some other Brazilians eg. Surui?
Per Wikipedia, Aimore don't have the Andaman-like gene sequence.
A 2015 genetic study reached a surprising conclusion about the origins of the Surui people. Unlike other Native American peoples, the Surui, Karitiana, and Xavante have an ancestry partially related to indigenous populations of the Andaman Islands, New Guinea, and Australia. Scientists speculate that the relationship derives from an earlier people, called "Population Y", in East Asia from whence both groups diverged 15,000 to 30,000 years ago, the future Australasians migrating south and the remote ancestors of the Surui northward, finding their way to the New World and to the interior Amazon Basin.[3][4]
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
My question still goes unanswered. Exactly how dark was Cheddar Man? Was he as 'black' as they make him out to be??
Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: My question still goes unanswered. Exactly how dark was Cheddar Man? Was he as 'black' as they make him out to be??
We would probably need a more complete genome before we can pinpoint his exact complexion. But this was from the original paper (see this thread):
quote:We predicted pigmentation characteristics for Cheddar Man and Sven using Hirisplex and a recently-developed method for predicting skin pigmentation26. Previously, predictions on the level of skin pigmentation were mostly derived using two SNPs in SLC45A2 and SLC24A5 that indicate lack of hypo-pigmentation when in the ancestral state. However, here we integrate 36 rather than 2 SNPs allowing more precise prediction. Cheddar Man is predicted to have had dark or dark to black skin, blue/green eyes and dark brown possibly black hair, whereas Sven most likely had intermediate to dark skin pigmentation, brown eyes and black possibly dark brown hair (see Pigmentation section in the Supplementary Materials for a detailed discussion of the results). This is in line with the current hypothesis that alleles commonly associated with lighter skin were introduced in Western Europe by ANFs.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
some people have a political interest in Cheddar man not being very dark
and different people who don't want Cheddar man to be dark may have entirely different motives as to why they don't want him to be dark
Posted by Black Crystal (Member # 22903) on :
I could never understand why only one physical trait ---skin color--- is the identifier for race in the minds of some. Hair type or facial feature is equally valid if we want to play that singular trait race game.
Cheddar man resembles an East Indian when you consider skin, hair and face. If anyone could claim European heritage, it would be them, not Africans. I boggles the mind.
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: I could never understand why only one physical trait ---skin color--- is the identifier for race in the minds of some. Hair type or facial feature is equally valid if we want to play that singular trait race game.
Cheddar man resembles an East Indian when you consider skin, hair and face.
You know many people on ES don't think blackness is exclusive to Africa right? But anyway, Cheddar man has been disrespected and frequently called black by the Eurocentric establishment which is why people still call him black. Cheddar man doesn't fully resemble any group of people alive today that I know of.
Posted by Black Crystal (Member # 22903) on :
I find that the racial term "black" is used in a nebulous way on this form by a few. Most people in the world default black to subsaharan Africans. You'd be hard pressed to find someone racially designating people like East Indians, who have dark or black skin, as "black." Further, I think some on this forum purposely hide behind this confusion as a means to latch Africans onto non African, dark skin people history. Clearly Cheddar man does not resemble an African. So why play the semantics game by calling him "black?"
quote:Originally posted by Oshun:
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: I could never understand why only one physical trait ---skin color--- is the identifier for race in the minds of some. Hair type or facial feature is equally valid if we want to play that singular trait race game.
Cheddar man resembles an East Indian when you consider skin, hair and face.
You know many people on ES don't think blackness is exclusive to Africa right? But anyway, Cheddar man has been disrespected and frequently called black by the Eurocentric establishment which is why people still call him black. Cheddar man doesn't fully resemble any group of people alive today that I know of.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Cheddar man has been disrespected
what are you talking about?
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by Black Crystal: I find that the racial term "black" is used in a nebulous way on this form by a few. Most people in the world default black to subsaharan Africans.
If you asked most people who an Adamanese, Aeta, or a Melanesian was, many of them wouldn't know they exist. SSA have more global notoriety.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Oshun: Cheddar man has been disrespected
what are you talking about?
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
Please delete double post
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Black never has and never will be relegated to Africans.
Now tell me Oxford is ES. No. Many on ES think black is only the slave pool set of Africans and descendants.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
Chaddar Man had a haplogroup that is most common with Americans and looks like an American. Redskin helmetish. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: some people have a political interest in Cheddar man not being very dark
and different people who don't want Cheddar man to be dark may have entirely different motives as to why they don't want him to be dark
I've been around the web, and there seems to be an agenda even among the experts in favor of Cheddar man being very dark because it gives them a foot in the door to claim North Africans and SW Asians as very dark Caucasoids i.e. a revived Hamitic Hypothesis.
Other than that, I don't care what this prehistoric Brit's complexion is. If he truly was that dark, then so be it. However, I find it hard to believe a late UP European living that high a latitude would have skin as dark as one indigenous to equatorial regions.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: some people have a political interest in Cheddar man not being very dark
and different people who don't want Cheddar man to be dark may have entirely different motives as to why they don't want him to be dark
I've been around the web, and there seems to be an agenda even among the experts in favor of Cheddar man being very dark because it gives them a foot in the door to claim North Africans and SW Asians as very dark Caucasoids i.e. a revived Hamitic Hypothesis.
Other than that, I don't care what this prehistoric Brit's complexion is. If he truly was that dark, then so be it. However, I find it hard to believe a late UP European living that high a latitude would have skin as dark as one indigenous to equatorial regions.
You can't change your view of reality just to counter some other agenda
Tibetan man
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: You can't change your view of reality just to counter some other agenda
I'm not! My view has always been the same. However, I can't help but get the feeling that your post above is nothing more than projection on your part as you have a bad penchant of twisting reality for your agenda.
quote: Tibetan man
Your photo above only proves my point. The Tibetan man is obviously dark but not as dark as the reconstructed Cheddar Man whose complexion is that of an equatorial aboriginal.
And yet Tibet is closer to the equator than England.
In fact the Tibetan capital of Lhasa falls about the same latitude as Cairo, Egypt. Please explain your Lioness.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Alright, I had forgotten that Tibet is not that North. One thing about it is the high elevation exposes people (at least their faces) to more UV. Most are not as dark as this man. But some Mongolians are somewhat dark although again we see only northern Mongolia corresponds to London latitudes
My point is that some people want Cheddar man to be black so that they can say "see, blacks in Europe, what did I tell you, the white man is a newcomer. We ruled Europe" but you seem to have this other view with a motive not entirely different but has another angle "we can't have these white racists thinking cheddar man was black. They might attach the word "caucasoid" to it and try to go ham (hamitic)".
I ask you is there a proper definition of caucasoid? Is it a valid term?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
Chaddar Man had a haplogroup that is most common with Americans
FALSE
.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
What does Skraeling looking blue eyed black skinned Cheddar Man have to do with the history, genetic or otherwise, of Africa and African peoples? Help me. I see no connections.
Connections to Picts or 'indigenous' Brit Isles blacks as per Mac Ritchie? Ok, yeah maybe.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Alright, I had forgotten that Tibet is not that North. One thing about it is the high elevation exposes people (at least their faces) to more UV. Most are not as dark as this man. But some Mongolians are somewhat dark although again we see only northern Mongolia corresponds to London latitudes
Yes but NONE approaches the hue of the reconstruction.
quote:My point is that some people want Cheddar man to be black so that they can say "see, blacks in Europe, what did I tell you, the white man is a newcomer. We ruled Europe"...
Yes, but such a view is held by an extreme fringe whom nobody takes seriously. Anyone with brains knows that black does not necessarily equate to African.
quote:but you seem to have this other view with a motive not entirely different but has another angle "we can't have these white racists thinking cheddar man was black. They might attach the word "caucasoid" to it and try to go ham (hamitic)".
No! My motive is entirely different because unlike the Afronuts whom you only criticize I never denied that Cheddar Man was ancestral to white Europeans living in that area and thus NOT having anything to do with the blacks of Africa. My point is the Euronuts will use this as an excuse to revive the Hamitic myth and then claim blacks in North Africa as being related to Europeans and not Sub-Saharans. Unlike the Afronuts whom you only go after, the Euronuts have held such a premise for over a century which went mainstream in academia and may very well rear its ugly head again. Tell me, what Afronut theories like those of Clyde of Marc have ever been in mainstream academia??
quote:I ask you is there a proper definition of caucasoid? Is it a valid term?
I don't know. Is there one for negroid? How about mongoloid??
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
So Chedda wasn't haplogroup C?
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
@djhuti you do realize the higher up you go in elevation the sun's effects becomes readily appearent so white skin would have no benefit.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: So Chedda wasn't haplogroup C?
No, look it up, google
"Cheddar Man" haplogroup
______________________________________
and now you're speaking of C but not indicating Y or mtDNA.
Y DNA "Haplogroup C-M130 is found in ancient populations on every continent except Africa and is the predominant Y-DNA haplogroup among males belonging to many peoples indigenous to East Asia, Central Asia, Siberia, North America and Oceania.
Possible place of origin: South Asia
^Here we have North America included but it's found in many other places so using a picture of an American Indian is not primary representative
______________
Haplogroup C is found in Northeast Asia[2] (including Siberia). In Eurasia, Haplogroup C is especially frequent among populations of arctic Siberia, such as Yukaghirs and Nganasans.[3] Haplogroup C is one of five mtDNA haplogroups found in the indigenous peoples of the Americas, the others being A, B, D, and X. The subclades C1b, C1c, C1d, and C4c are found in the first people of the Americas. C1a is found only in Asia.
So again a picture of an American Indian is not a primary representative. Their ancestors are Siberian.
More than a half of the northern Asian pool of human mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is fragmented into a number of subclades of haplogroups C. More than a half of the northern Asian pool of mtDNA is fragmented into a number of subclades of haplogroups C and D, two of the most frequent haplogroups throughout northern, eastern, central Asia and America. Previous studies have proposed that haplogroups C and D originated around 30–50 kya in eastern Asia, from where they subsequently expanded northwards to southern Siberia, and further deep into northern Asia and the Americas, and westwards along the Steppe Belt extending from Manchuria to Europe
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: @djhuti you do realize the higher up you go in elevation the sun's effects becomes readily appearent so white skin would have no benefit.
Yes, I know this. But the issue here is not altitude but latitude. Melanin is a pigment used to block excess UV rays since such can damage living skin cells. However the skin needs some adequate exposure to UV in order to produce vitamin D which is an essential nutrient for healthy bone growth and development. The lower in latitude i.e. the closer one gets to the equator the more UV ray exposure. Thus equatorial populations aboriginal to an area with maybe the exception of the Americas are very black. The higher in latitude i.e. the farther you are away from the equator the less UV ray exposure. So Europeans especially those of northern areas are pale in complexion and the same is true of northeast Asians because the UV rays are weak in these areas melanin becomes a liability. Certain North Asian populations like the Eskimo are an exception to this rule in that they have relatively dark skins even though they live in polar regions, the reason being that they traditionally lived off vitamin D rich diets of fish meat and marine mammal blubber. This is why dark skinned and especially black people who move to Northern Europe must supplement vitamin D into their diets especially growing children or else they will suffer vitamin D deficiency disorders such as rickets. On the flip side when whites move to equatorial regions they have to use sunscreen or else suffer the consequences of UV skin damage which leads to skin cancer.
^^ However, even if European skin became pale relatively recently, the change couldn't have been from the Nigerian-like complexion of Cheddar Man reconstruction to palor all of sudden. That is why I'm saying Late Paleolithic Europeans probably were dark but not that dark!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
I never denied that Cheddar Man was ancestral to white Europeans living in that area and thus NOT have anything to do with the blacks of Europe.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
My point is the Euronuts will use this as an excuse to revive the Hamitic myth and then claim blacks in North Africa as being related to Europeans and not Sub-Saharans.
Afroasiatic-speaking ethnic groups such as the Afar (Danakil) were regarded as being of Hamitic origin because of their Caucasoid physiognomies, cultural traits and language.
.
.
Cheddar Man is a human male fossil found in Gough's Cave in Cheddar Gorge, Somerset, England.
I see what you're saying the Euronuts could say the Egyptians were Black English immigrants They could also try to tie it into that red hair Irish theory. We can see the similarity between this Afar and Cheddar man (possible prelude to future Euronut's set up)
Interesting how the BBC online article (bottom photo) shows the same Cheddar man reconstruction looking lighter. They did that with the Tut reconstruction as well as the Barbra Steishand-esque Nefertiti. Some photos have lighter conditions some darker of the same reconstuction-- tricks
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I corrected my typo. I meant that Cheddar man had nothing to do with the blacks of AFRICA even if he was black.
I noticed you ignored my question as it pertained to academia. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I noticed you ignored my question as it pertained to academia.
you mean trying to instigate me to say something against Clyde?
And is not the Hamitic hypothesis something borne out of academia ???
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Always with the Eurocentric atypical examples.
But NatGeo picked this guy to rep Danakil people.
Some more 'typical' Danakil's Afar people.
A Deshret thread hiding in Egyptology?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ Based on just looking at this photo and assuming "black" is a valid term,
is this a black man ?
_________________________________________
no answer like "he's a black_______"
"yes" or "no" only please is this a black man ?
Posted by EgyWolf (Member # 22765) on :
Europe is White, the same thing as most users here claim that Africa is Black
if some Blacks don't think that Parts of Africa were never black why should we believe them when theyre dying to prove that part of Europe was black .
i comfortably dont think that Boris Johnson former foreign secretary had an ancestor from Congo
whoever believes an illusion wont open his eyes to facts and common sense unless he moves far from that illusion
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
look at his eyes, clearly South African
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you mean trying to instigate me to say something against Clyde?
No. Incitement of conflict against other posters is YOUR arena. On the contrary I asked why you only attack fringe Afrocentrics like Clyde and Marc but never the predominant or prevailing Eurocentric ones?? Or perhaps this question to you is rhetorical. LOL
quote:And is not the Hamitic hypothesis something borne out of academia ???
Precisely my point! 'Hamitic' [read: black Caucasoid] was a Eurocentric concotion and I fear that the black Cheddar Man is another return to this.
As of yet, I still haven't gotten a valid answer as to how the experts came to conclusion that Cheddar Man was that dark in complexion.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ Based on just looking at this photo and assuming "black" is a valid term,
is this a black man ?
_________________________________________
no answer like "he's a black_______"
"yes" or "no" only please is this a black man ?
'Black' is color descriptive NOT an ancestral one. The answer is YES Cheddar Man as he portrayed above is black. But again, how did the experts come to the conclusion of him being that dark considering this place of origin? That someone has dark skin does not mean he/she was dark enough to be black. Of course we know YOUR agend and why you are pushing this. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: you mean trying to instigate me to say something against Clyde?
No. Incitement of conflict against other posters is YOUR arena. On the contrary I asked why you only attack fringe Afrocentrics like Clyde and Marc but never the predominant or prevailing Eurocentric ones?? Or perhaps this question to you is rhetorical. LOL
FALSE ! there are hardly even any "Euroecentrics" posting anymore !! FALSE ! I even have urged ES posters to send letters to the creators of reconstructions that they disagree with and listed the email addresses. And I've done it myself. FALSE ! Cass even went so far as to make an anti-lioness channel name to take revenge for me exposing his aliases
Clyde and I are the only Afrocentrics left on this site (we just have minor "issues" at times)
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
As of yet, I still haven't gotten a valid answer as to how the experts came to conclusion that Cheddar Man was that dark in complexion.
because there are alleles they consider to be markers indicating degree of darkness(see supp) However the authors have since said that these markers are not reliable enough to say how dark he was
We know that a dark skinned Cheddar man would attract a lot of attention to the reconstruction team and research authors
But do you believe the reconstruction team said to themselves " we need to darken this ancient Brit's skin tone in our data so later we can use it to revive a Hamitic-like theory for Africa" ?
but they really didn't think he was that dark?
Or did it originate with the authors of the article who said to themselves "let's artificially darken this ancient Brit's skin tone so we can revive a Hamitic-like theory for Africa" ?
That seems peculiar that people who call themselves "white people" would be motivated to do that with nefarious intent
Wouldn't a white nationalist in want the ancient Brits to be as white as they are?
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: 'Hamitic' [read: black Caucasoid] was a Eurocentric concotion and I fear that the black Cheddar Man is another return to this.
Have no fear lioness is here
what if the black Caucasoid origin is in Africa ???
then what ??
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ Based on just looking at this photo and assuming "black" is a valid term,
is this a black man ?
_________________________________________
no answer like "he's a black_______"
"yes" or "no" only please is this a black man ?
'Black' is color descriptive NOT an ancestral one. The answer is YES Cheddar Man as he portrayed above is black. But again, how did the experts come to the conclusion of him being that dark considering this place of origin? That someone has dark skin does not mean he/she was dark enough to be black. Of course we know YOUR agend and why you are pushing this.
^^ Americans don't call this a black person unless a question about color or skin is asked.
This is reflected in the U.S. Census:
.
You will note "Asian Indian" has it's own category while while "African am" is listed under Black
this despite the fact that many Aframs are lighter than this Indian
That is common usage in America
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes the Indian man above like many Indians in the subcontinent are dark enough to be 'black'. But most of India lies in the tropics with its northern area in the same subtropical zone as Egypt. Again Cheddar Man lived all the way in England. Show me a black population indigenous to areas near the subpolar zone.
Even many Khoisan who lived just outside the tropical zone are light-skinned enough to technically not be 'black'!
Yet we expect a Prehistoric Brit to be as dark as Nigerian??
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Nigerians have full range of complexions. Your avg Igbo is lighter than your avg Hausa speaking Fulani.
Red Ebo --> Redbone? (Ask a Yardie, but don't you dare call her one. No no.)
Fuck a US census. Identity isn't description. Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans are three separate races? Right! For #9 I have to choose SOME OTHER RACE -- PRINT RACE
Reminder: Little Black Sambo is East Indian. Kipling, raised in India, writes his fellow Brits calls southern East Indians nigger.
OK, now let's turn on a dime. While this thread is still in Egyptology forum let's forego feelings for facts(data) just a for a minute. Comparing any mulberry black skins to Mister Cheddar, what do genetic skin markers (link) show?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes the Indian man above like many Indians in the subcontinent are dark enough to be 'black'.
'Black' is color descriptive NOT an ancestral one.
Again, I have shown that in American word usage calling brown skinned people "black" is determined by color + hair type + features (with certain proportional variances allowed) And we see how that common usage is reflected in the U.S. census and how most people categorize people in America. We may not like it, it may not be ancientgreekcentric but that is the common usage in America, it goes beyond skin , black, "a person who looks African" that is the true current definition according to usage in America and in Europe
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
But most of India lies in the tropics with its northern area in the same subtropical zone as Egypt. Again Cheddar Man lived all the way in England. Show me a black population indigenous to areas near the subpolar zone.
Yet we expect a Prehistoric Brit to be as dark as Nigerian?? [/qb]
I told your ass look at the supplement
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
US census race is for US civil rights monitoring. It doesn't pretend accuracy for what we discuss here. Chinese Japanese and Koreans are not separate races to anybody in the US or anywhere else. Obviously, and by its own admission "The Census Bureau defines RACE as a person's self-identification with one or more SOCIAL GROUPS."
The US gov knows its OBM directive is whack-a-doodle.
quote:
... a growing number of people find the current race and ethnic categories confusing, or they wish to see their own specific group reflected on the census questionnaire. Our research has found that over time, there have been a growing number of people who do not identify with any of the official OMB race categories, and this means that an increasing number of respondents have been racially classified as “Some Other Race." [...] Some Other Race (SOR) population, which was intended to be a small residual category, was the third largest race group.
USgov social group "races" aren't colour driven. No brown, red, yellow, olive, pink or gray races. USgov recognize its own shortcomings getting the popular view all wrong (link)
quote:
... Afro-Caribbean and Middle Eastern or North African populations, did not identify with any of the OMB race categories and identified as SOR.
Evidently its to each their own social opinions. Pop goes the weasel!
Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes the Indian man above like many Indians in the subcontinent are dark enough to be 'black'. But most of India lies in the tropics with its northern area in the same subtropical zone as Egypt. Again Cheddar Man lived all the way in England. Show me a black population indigenous to areas near the subpolar zone.
Even many Khoisan who lived just outside the tropical zone are light-skinned enough to technically not be 'black'!
Yet we expect a Prehistoric Brit to be as dark as Nigerian??
Remember that Cheddar Man is thought to have been descended from a fairly recent wave of immigrants who came into Britain from further south around 12,000 years ago.
quote:There has previously been some evidence of settlers in Britain 40,000 years ago. But alternating periods of extreme cold weather had led to sporadic settlement until about 12,000 years ago, where hunter-gatherers were thought to have crossed over from mainland Europe, which was still connected via landmass to Britain. This latest work makes it possible to associate Cheddar Man and his kind in Britain with other hunter-gatherers from the Mesolithic age on the continent, who are better understood.
So he and his people may not necessarily be the result of long-term adaptation to a Northern European environment. They could have ultimately come from somewhere in the Mediterranean basin, for all we know. In fact, I recall Swenet arguing in another thread that he had a bit of "Basal Eurasian" ancestry from northern Africa. Maybe that's where some of his dark-skin alleles come from?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
^ Based on just looking at this photo and assuming "black" is a valid term,
is this a black man ?
_________________________________________
no answer like "he's a black_______"
"yes" or "no" only please is this a black man ?
'Black' is color descriptive NOT an ancestral one. The answer is YES Cheddar Man as he portrayed above is black. But again, how did the experts come to the conclusion of him being that dark considering this place of origin? That someone has dark skin does not mean he/she was dark enough to be black. Of course we know YOUR agend and why you are pushing this.
^^ Americans don't call this a black person unless a question about color or skin is asked.
This is reflected in the U.S. Census:
.
You will note "Asian Indian" has it's own category while while "African am" is listed under Black
this despite the fact that many Aframs are lighter than this Indian
That is common usage in America
South Asians where considered black by the British and the Americans for most of it's history. Black in America is the old name of an ethnic group that is now considered African American precisely because some AA's are not "black" at all but are ethnically AA
So quit instigating because you feel bad about your own "black" south asian ancestors. Lioness look in the mirror and own your blackness and quit being an agent for Europeans who treated the Hindoos like black dogs for centuries.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
Afro/African Americans are a culture, ethnicity, lineage of a group of people from chattel slavery AA's are too heterogeneous to be a "race" even if you believe in such a thing as "race"
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
@ Lioness, nobody cares about what you are saying or any supplement. All you have been supplying is b.s.! I think I already proved my point whereas all you've proven is that you're full of it.
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Nigerians have full range of complexions. Your avg Igbo is lighter than your avg Hausa speaking Fulani.
Red Ebo --> Redbone? (Ask a Yardie, but don't you dare call her one. No no.)
Yes, thank you Tukuler. I am well aware of the complexion diversity of Nigerians. I was just speaking in stereotypical sense of course.
quote:Fuck a US census. Identity isn't description. Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans are three separate races? Right! For #9 I have to choose SOME OTHER RACE -- PRINT RACE
Precisely why I chose to ignore the lioness's census crap.
quote:Reminder: Little Black Sambo is East Indian. Kipling, raised in India, writes his fellow Brits calls southern East Indians nigger.
Of course! We all know there are many Indians dark enough to be labeled as black. Well except for her lioness.
quote:OK, now let's turn on a dime. While this thread is still in Egyptology forum let's forego feelings for facts(data) just a for a minute. Comparing any mulberry black skins to Mister Cheddar, what do genetic skin markers (link) show?
Correct. The article you linked to again only proves what I'm saying. Skin complexion is more complex than simply black or white. Again, I never denied that Late UP Europeans like Cheddar Man had dark skin. The question is exactly how dark. What I doubt is that he had a complexion as dark as an equatorial even though he lived all the way in a subpolar area just past the last Ice Age! This is just common sense.
Lioness is nothing more than a troll peddling her wares of b.s.
Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
quote:Originally posted by EgyWolf: Europe is White, the same thing as most users here claim that Africa is Black
if some Blacks don't think that Parts of Africa were never black why should we believe them when theyre dying to prove that part of Europe was black .
i comfortably dont think that Boris Johnson former foreign secretary had an ancestor from Congo
whoever believes an illusion wont open his eyes to facts and common sense unless he moves far from that illusion
Yes modern Europe IS mostly white. The debate is whether it was always white in it's past. Just because most of Africa hasn't changed so much in phenotype that they would be considered a different race from most of their ancestors doesn't mean that this would apply to everyone.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Modern Europeans:
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
