This is topic Here we go again. QUEEN NEFERTITI BROUGHT TO LIFE WITH CONTROVERSIAL in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009879

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Perhaps that team can explain why Nefertiti her skin complexion is the way it is on there. Of course the racist French chick Elisabeth Daynes, is on the team again, duh.

ANCIENT EGYPT: MUMMY OF QUEEN NEFERTITI BROUGHT TO LIFE WITH CONTROVERSIAL FAIR SKIN IN 3-D SCAN







http://www.newsweek.com/ancient-egypt-queen-nefertiti-ancient-bust-fair-skin-800519


Ancient Egyptians had them like this:

Nefertiti and Akhenaten




A closeup to make sure:




And if Tutankhamen is the offspring, and had they had him like this?



How come, a white person in 2018 decides to give her a skin complexion similarly to their own.
 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
The complexion they gave her is close to the pigment used to depict her on the relief. what the hell are you talking about?
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
The complexion they gave her is close to the pigment used to depict her on the relief. what the hell are you talking about?

---

Quite Frankly,

If you call that close, you need spectacles. There is a reason why I posted a closeup, but even that wasn’t sufficient for you. Please visit the optician rather hella quickly.

So you can observe better on Kemet.

Nefertiti’s booty,


 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
The bust shows her as light-skin - like a Levantine; the family of her husband were clearly more akin to North Sudanese.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
The bust shows her as light-skin - like a Levantine; the family of her husband were clearly more akin to North Sudanese.

---

There is a lot to say about the bust. Do you really want to go there? Also the Levantine we can touch.

'Fake' claims over Nefertiti bust


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=next_topic;f=8;t=008262;go=newer


Ay was the father, they say.



So something doesn’t add up here.


This is a native Egypt woman from Cairo.



Now, I am not ruling out any Levantine women, because I know well they can have the same color complexion and facial features.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
These are modern Egyptian woman. The recreation of Nefertiti would fit right in:


This lie modern Egyptians are not the ancient Egyptians MUST DIE. They overwhelmingly carry DNA of their ancient ancestors and were more Middle Eastern in ancient times:

 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Just about all recreations of ancient Egyptians show Caucasians:

 

---

Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
 
Modern Egyptian aren't the same as the ancient Egyptian unless you're talking about the black ones.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
THEY ARE THE SAME! This is EGYPTIAN Y-DNA SHOWING SUPER CLEARLY THEY ARE INDIGENOUS NORTH AFRICANS:

Afrocentrics just will not accept reality:

 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Of course the above Y-DNA Map does not apply to Copts, who like their ancient Egyptian ancestors, carry NO Black African DNA or Arab DNA and carry overwhelmingly MID EAST DNA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_history_of_Egypt#Copts
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
She looks just like King Tut:




 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:


So something doesn’t add up here.


This is a native Egypt woman from Cairo.



Now, I am not ruling out any Levantine women, because I know well they can have the same color complexion and facial features. [/QB]

---

You don't have a match. The Egyptian woman in the photos has a wider mouth. more prognothis and wider nose. That is weird angle also



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://www.nilemagazine.com.au/2015-december/2015/12/6/happy-anniversary-nefertiti

NILE Magazine June-July 2017
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
She looks just like King Tut:

---

That's the problem will you wake up? You say she looks like Tut. Did it ever occur to you that something might be wrong with that Tutankhamen reconstruction?







Did it ever occur to you that the Pharaohs are depicted in Egyptian art virtually without exception as brown skinned yet they gave him a European complexion in the reconstruction?
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

So something doesn’t add up here.

---

Here's a problem and I have corrected it in the second version unless someone can prove my version wrong



original reconstruction, Nefertiti



lioness variation, Nefertiti reconstruction, eye color black


On the flip side the above construction has fuller lips than the bust



the eye on the bust however is black


Another ancient Nefertiti sculpture

Again, compared to the reconstruction this Egyptian sculpture shows less full lips, less prognothsis and a nose thinner in the middle than in the reconstruction
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Of course the above Y-DNA Map does not apply to Copts, who like their ancient Egyptian ancestors, carry NO Black African DNA or Arab DNA and carry overwhelmingly MID EAST DNA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_history_of_Egypt#Copts

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:


This lie modern Egyptians are not the ancient Egyptians MUST DIE. They overwhelmingly carry DNA of their ancient ancestors and were more Middle Eastern in ancient times:

---

Even if it should die, research generally suggests a phenotypic (if not genotypic) cline in Egypt, and they would be representative of a northern trend that would've existed to some degree. Anyways, if you're going to assign races to genetics and are only going to look at a snapshot of Egyptian history to pretend as though its the same as having a full canvas of what happened throughout Egyptian history, go ahead. It's a dubious, but go ahead.

The DNA acquired was from one Lower Egyptian site (Lower Egyptians already being more mixed with non Africans) that had seen heavy Asiatic immigration for hundreds of years BEFORE the first of these mummies was ever born. Why do you cherry pick what the research says, when they tell you in the study about this well documented history in case you didn't know? You guys take research, strip it of it's context and try to make arguments of race, please stop.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Oh the irony...

The bust is unveiled on live TV with a real Egyptian

to the left in white Hoda Kotb both parents Egyptian, to the middle typical NorthWestern European woman ( I forget her name) , and the but looking more English than North African.




A Convicted Forger Calls Nefertiti's Bust a Fake, from the Smithsonian YT channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cckwn7jN3Ms
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Come on. We know the game these people play.

There are thousands of images of dark skinned pharaohs from Ancient egypt but they always use the same hand picked pictures to "prove" how they looked.

Nefertiti:






 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Its very likely that Queen Nefertiti, King Tut and other members of the Amarna Dynasty were more European and Middle Eastern than Black African, just like the Abusir el Meleq mummies.

Ancient Egyptians portrayed themselves with terracotta colour skin, but so did other Mediterranean peoples, like the Minoans. Minoans were indigenous Europeans according to DNA.

 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
According to Afrocentrics, ALL ancient Egyptian sculpture portraying Caucasians is fake. I once contacted the Egypt Museum in Cairo and asked if any of the sculpture is fake.

They replied and said ALL THEIR SCULPTURES are the REAL THING, NO FAKES. Nefertiti is NOT a fake.

Also as Iv written before, there have been 4 places in Egypt where DNA has been taken from ancient Egyptians. THEY WERE ALL MIDDLE EASTERN IN ORIGIN
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Ancient Egyptians DID NOT portray their exact likeness in sculptures. They used an idealized versions of themselves. In other words, they had themselves portrayed as more pretty or handsome.

This recreations looks just like the skull:


 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Actual "stylized" image of Amarna royals:









So either the AE didn't know what their own royals looked like or modern recreations are promoting fake history.

And there are Africans in Africa with the same look. There are NO Europeans that look like this.

Mangbetu are a good example of this.

[img] //c1.staticflickr.com/8/7196/26539141384_ce848b8d00_b.jpg [/img]

Eliot Olisofon took good pictures of these people but the Siris site is broken and the images unavailalble....
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Actual "stylized" image of Amarna royals:









So either the AE didn't know what their own royals looked like or modern recreations are promoting fake history.

And there are Africans in Africa with the same look. There are NO Europeans that look like this.

Mangbetu are a good example of this.

[img] //c1.staticflickr.com/8/7196/26539141384_ce848b8d00_b.jpg [/img]

Eliot Olisofon took good pictures of these people but the Siris site is broken and the images unavailalble....
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Doug M ^

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
According to Afrocentrics, ALL ancient Egyptian sculpture portraying Caucasians is fake. I once contacted the Egypt Museum in Cairo and asked if any of the sculpture is fake.

They replied and said ALL THEIR SCULPTURES are the REAL THING, NO FAKES. Nefertiti is NOT a fake.


Also as Iv written before, there have been 4 places in Egypt where DNA has been taken from ancient Egyptians. THEY WERE ALL MIDDLE EASTERN IN ORIGIN

---

quote:

---

During three seasons of research (in 2000, 2001 and 2003) carried out by the Combined Prehistoric Expedition at Gebel Ramlah in the southern part of the Egyptian Western Desert, three separate Final Neolithic cemeteries were discovered and excavated. Skeletal remains of 67 individuals, comprising both primary and secondary interments, were recovered from 32 discrete burial pits. Numerous grave goods were found, including lithics, pottery and ground stone objects, as well as items of personal adornment, pigments, shells and sheets of mica. Imports from distant areas prove far-reaching contacts. Analysis of the finds sheds important light on the burial rituals and social conditions of the Final Neolithic cattle keepers inhabiting Ramlah Playa. This community, dated to the mid-fifth millennium B.C. (calibrated), was composed of a phenotypically diverse population derived from both North and sub-Saharan Africa. There were no indications of social differentiation. The deteriorating climatic conditions probably forced these people to migrate toward the Nile Valley where they undoubtedly contributed to the birth of ancient Egyptian civilization.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Ancient Egyptians DID NOT portray their exact likeness in sculptures. They used an idealized versions of themselves. In other words, they had themselves portrayed as more pretty or handsome.

This recreations looks just like the skull:

http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/embed-lg/public/2018/02/06/texus4paris54312.jpg

---

What you posted was GARBAGE.


DEAL WITH REALITY. AIR HEAD! THIS IS HOW SHE IS DEPICTED IN COLOR COMPLEXION BY ANCIENT EGYPTIANS!!!!! You obviously have to incredibly dumb, if you can't see this difference.




"..portrayed as more pretty or handsome.."

You are debunking yourself here, you dumbass.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Its very likely that Queen Nefertiti, King Tut and other members of the Amarna Dynasty were more European and Middle Eastern than Black African, just like the Abusir el Meleq mummies.

Ancient Egyptians portrayed themselves with terracotta colour skin, but so did other Mediterranean peoples, like the Minoans. Minoans were indigenous Europeans according to DNA.
https://s-i.huffpost.com/gen/1137455/images/h-MINOAN-628x314.jpg

---

You obviously have are clueless about ethnographic in Africa and the Middle East. In other words, you are sh*t for brains.

The alleged people referred to in that paper, you keep posting!! And I descent from both.




http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/0f36d1de83234ded8bd32ab84dc237f7/a-traditional-bedouin-man-prepares-a-meal-in-his-large-tent-near-dimona-b336gm.jpg





http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get2/I0000_kvnxIvYTQE/fit=1000x750/Bedouin-Negev-Israel-28.jpg





Actual Armana descendants;









 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Oh the irony...

The bust is unveiled on live TV with a real Egyptian

to the left in white Hoda Kotb both parents Egyptian, to the middle typical NorthWestern European woman ( I forget her name) , and the bust looking more English than North African.




A Convicted Forger Calls Nefertiti's Bust a Fake, from the Smithsonian YT channel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cckwn7jN3Ms

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
THEY ARE THE SAME! This is EGYPTIAN Y-DNA SHOWING SUPER CLEARLY THEY ARE INDIGENOUS NORTH AFRICANS:

Afrocentrics just will not accept reality:

---

quote:

---

Population comparisons

Based on FST values, the mitochondrial genetic diversity of Soqotra is statistically different (P \ 0.01) from the comparative populations. An MDS plot of FST values shows that the Soqotra sample is clearly distinct from all sub-Saharan, North African, Middle East, and Indian populations (see Fig. 2). High differentiation of the East African groups such as the Sandawe, Hadza, Turu, Datog, and Burunge is shown on the left side of the graph. However, there is a general similarity of the remaining sub-Saharan African populations, particularly those from the Sahel band and the Chad Basin (with the exception of the Fulani nomads). Subsequently, there is a transitional zone formed by the populations from Ethiopia and the Nile Valley but also by some Yemeni groups, particularly the ones from the eastern parts of the country (Hadramawt). Finally, the cluster on the right part of the graph is composed by the Indian populations on the top, the Near and Middle Eastern groups in the middle and the populations of the Arabian peninsula at the bottom; Yemeni Jews being slightly different. The only outlier within the region of southwestern Asia is the Kalash sample that is situated on the extreme right part of the graph (see also Quintana-Murci et al., 2004). There is a general cline among all populations in the MDS plot from the Soqotri population to a cluster of Middle East and North African populations that splits into sub-Saharan and Indian populations.

Population differentiation of Soqotra from African, Middle East and Indian populations based on NRY-SNP data manifests a similar picture although the compara- tive populations are different and fewer than in the mi- tochondrial DNA analysis (see Fig. 3). A comparison of FST values shows that the only population that is not significantly different from Soqotra is that from Yemen (P [ 0.01). Similarly to mtDNA MDS plot, we observe a cline from the Soqotri population to a cluster of Middle East and North African populations that splits into sub- Saharan and Indian populations.


Phylogenetic affiliations


Within the Soqotri samples, we identified haplotypes belonging to three of the main branches of the mtDNA phylogeny (macrohaplogroups L, N, and R); notably hap- logroup M is absent (Table 2). There are only two sub- Saharan L haplotypes and they do not carry the 3594HpaI mutation so their classification is L3*; these haplotypes do not contain the specific mutations of L5b (23594HpaI) (Kivisild et al., 2004) and therefore they are possibly L3h2 as they both contain substitutions at 16111, 16184, and 16304 (see Behar et al., 2008). Macro- haplogroup N is represented by three different haplo- types of which only one can be unambiguously classified as N1a (it contains HVS-I motif 16147G-16172-16223-16248-16355). Two other N haplotypes have never been found outside Soqotra (see Table 2).

The most widespread mtDNA types in Soqotra belong to macrohaplogroup R (Table 2). The majority of R haplo- types can be classified as R0a [previously known as (preHV)1]. Three of the R haplotypes have not been previously reported. A network analysis of all Soqotri R0a haplotypes with additional sequences from Africa and Asia (see Fig. 4) shows a time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) of 23,339 6 8,232 YBP for R0a. It is shown that the majority of Soqotri R0a haplotypes fall into clade R0a1 (defined by variant 16355) whose TMRCA is 11,418 6 4,198 YBP. Furthermore, within R0a1, the unique Soqotri haplotypes form a new clade that is defined by variant 16172 and that we have named R0a1a1. Abu-Amero et al. (2007) identified a hap- lotype defined by variant 16355 and named it (preHV)1a1, thus it corresponds to R0a1a using the newer nomenclature and the unique Soqotri haplotypes are derived from this lineage). This Soqotri-specific clade has a very young TMRCA (3,363 6 2,378 YBP) that sug- gests the R0a1a1 haplotypes evolved on Soqotra and have not dispersed elsewhere. Two other Soqotri R hap- lotypes are not classified further than R* and are quite common in neighboring populations. Five haplotypes within macrohaplogroup R carry the 4216N1aIII variant that places them in clade JT. Of the JT haplotypes, two are unique to Soqotra; J1b is represented by two individuals and T* is represented by one individual.

The majority of NRY haplotypes in Soqotra belong to haplogroup J (85.7%), with most (45 out of 54) unclassified as J*(xJ1,J2) and a few (the remaining 9 samples) classified as J1 (see Fig. 5). It is interesting to note that NRY haplotypes lacking both M172 and M267, as in our unclassified J*, have not been previously identified on the Arabian Peninsula (Cadenas et al., 2008). Haplogroup E is represented at a frequency of 9.5% and three other haplogroups, F*(xJ,K), K*(xO,P) and R*(xR1b), are present in one individual each. It is worth noting that none of the ancient African haplogroups (A and B) were observed in Soqotra.

[…]

In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups.

---

quote:

---

African and Middle Eastern populations shared the greatest number of alleles absent from all other populations (fig. S6B).

---

—Sarah A. Tishkoff,
The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans






Further more we have other Southern Arabians:


Akhdam


Qarra


Hawt

 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
And there are Africans in Africa with the same look. There are NO Europeans that look like this.

Mangbetu are a good example of this.

---

head-binding is practiced all over the world, dude. some ancient European tribes used to do it too.



actually a mild form was practiced in a certain part of France until quite recently.


but why are you so obsessed with Europeans? it's the Middle East and North Africa that's relevant.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
And there are Africans in Africa with the same look. There are NO Europeans that look like this.

Mangbetu are a good example of this.

---

head-binding is practiced all over the world, dude. some ancient European tribes used to do it too.



actually a mild form was practiced in a certain part of France until quite recently.


but why are you so obsessed with Europeans? it's the Middle East and North Africa that's relevant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
dude five seconds of google

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_cranial_deformation

no one does it now, i have no idea why anyone thought it looked good in the first place, but you can find it on every continent. looks like frigging aliens to me but there's no accounting for taste.

---

Of course I can search five-seconds, but I am asking for hands-on knowledge on ethnic groups. I guess you yourself did not know.


So do you think the Armana sculptures look like that cold adapted man from Europe, or more like people you'll find in Africa?

Ps, it's also very funny that there nothing about Africa written on that wikipage, as if there it not such history in Africa. The author(s) has to be delusional. It obviously biased, prejudice and loads of B.S..
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
Ish, you are a complete waste of time to talk to. it's like a toddler trying to use the Socratic method.

if you want to discuss for the ten billionth fucking time how African ancient Egpytians look leave me out of it, i don't care. point is skull-squishing is not peculiar to Africa.

PS it's Wikipedia. stop whining and add the Africans yourself. that's the point of Wikipedia.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
Ish, you are a complete waste of time to talk to. it's like a toddler trying to use the Socratic method.

if you want to discuss for the ten billionth fucking time how African ancient Egpytians look leave me out of it, i don't care. point is skull-squishing is not peculiar to Africa.

---

"It's a complete waste of time". That was hilarious. The person who wrote that wiki page is a toddler. Clearly not fully developed.

You don't want to respond to a simple question, on how Africans look in comparison to the elongated Armana sculptures, but you quickly popped up showing a European man, to make a point. It's hilarious, I can give you that. Socratic?



 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
And there are Africans in Africa with the same look. There are NO Europeans that look like this.

Mangbetu are a good example of this.

---

head-binding is practiced all over the world, dude. some ancient European tribes used to do it too.



actually a mild form was practiced in a certain part of France until quite recently.


but why are you so obsessed with Europeans? it's the Middle East and North Africa that's relevant.

---

So what Europeans look like this?


Versus Africans:


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ It is not clear what the boundaries of the back of her head are because of that hairstyle
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
Doug, i don't care whether a European ever lived who looked anything like the bust of Queen Nefertiti. make yourself useful and add the Mangbetu to the Wikipedia article, why don't you.
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:






Further more we have other Southern Arabians:


Akhdam


Qarra


Hawt

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Its very likely that Queen Nefertiti, King Tut and other members of the Amarna Dynasty were more European and Middle Eastern than Black African, just like the Abusir el Meleq mummies.

Ancient Egyptians portrayed themselves with terracotta colour skin, but so did other Mediterranean peoples, like the Minoans. Minoans were indigenous Europeans according to DNA.

---

As everyone else has sort of nudged you towards with these pictures: What makes you think saying someone is genetically more closely related to someone European will make them classified the same racially? It is not very common for Europeans to have skin as dark as the AE. AND they came from Sudan, often with full lips, and curly hair? Look, the Sudanese the Upper Egyptians descended from look like this:



I mean what if we saw ancient people living in China, Europe or the Near East with lighter skin and said "oh that person can't be Asian or can't be white because Igbo and Khoisan can be very light skinned?" Well that's what you sound like right now.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
DNA of ancient Egyptians debunks so called black sculptures, paintings and everything else.
Recreations of ancient Egyptians by REAL FORENSIC SCIENTISTS show ancient Egyptians were Caucasians.

RESULTS of HEAD BINDING
Ancient Egypts King Tut:
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5b7e36f0e9ad.jpg

Head binding in Africa, Peru:


Once again, Afrocentric bullshyt debunked:
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Why do Afrocentrics never look at DNA??????

The vast majority of Europeans ARE MIDDLE EASTERN CAUCASIANS IN ORIGIN. Their DNA originated from the MIDDLE EAST about 8000 years ago. Some Northern Europeans carry Y-DNA from East Asia



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
[QB] Why do Afrocentrics never look at DNA??????

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Why do Afrocentrics never look at DNA??????

The vast majority of Europeans ARE MIDDLE EASTERN CAUCASIANS IN ORIGIN. Their DNA originated from the MIDDLE EAST about 8000 years ago. Some Northern Europeans carry Y-DNA from East Asia

---

Have you considered why they posted some of the pictures they did? Socotra are heavily haplogroup J but do not look at all like Europeans or "white" Near Easterners. You are again trying to use DNA to determine "race" by suggesting that people of the same race will also be genetically closest to one another when this is NOT always true. In the streets of Europe these kids would be black:



But they'd be closer to modern Near Easterners genetically than they would a Sub Saharan "black Africans." Even if Sudan were riddled with haplogroup J migrants, how do you know these hypothetical Upper Egyptians didn't look like these back migrants simply by looking at their genetic profile?
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
MIDDLE EASTERN FARMERS MIGRATED EUROPE. NORTH AFRICA, CENTRAL ASIA and NORTHERN INDIA about 9000 - 6000 years ago and thats why all these peoples resemble Mid East people.

Ancient Egyptians looking just like their Middle Eastern ancestors:


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
[QB] Why do Afrocentrics never look at DNA??????

---

A 2012 study done on the mummified remains of Ramesses III and his son determined that both y-chromosomes belonged to Haplogroup E1b1a (Y-DNA). The pharaoh’s y-chromosome belongs to the most frequent haplogroup among contemporary Sub-Saharan y-chromosomes

“Genetic kinship analyses revealed identical haplotypes in both mummies (table 1); using the Whit Athey’s haplogroup predictor, we determined the Y chromosomal haplogroup E1b1a. The testing of polymorphic autosomal microsatellite loci provided similar results in at least one allele of each marker (table 2).”

–Hawass et al 2012. Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III. British Medical Journal, BMJ2012;345:e8268

---

Dinkum, look who's ignoring the DNA. It's you
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
This is a Y-DNA Map of Indigenous Peoples:

Sub Saharan Africans (including Sudanese) are NOT closely related to Mid East people. They carry Y-DNA A ans are more closely related to Khoisan:



This is a MTDNA Map of indigenous peoples of the world. It speaks for itself:


 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
As for Ramesses 3, I never said there were no Sub Saharan Africans in Egypt, just that the majority were MID EAST in origin.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
MIDDLE EASTERN FARMERS MIGRATED EUROPE. NORTH AFRICA, CENTRAL ASIA and NORTHERN INDIA about 9000 - 6000 years ago and thats why all these peoples resemble Mid East people.

Ancient Egyptians looking just like their Middle Eastern ancestors:

---

.


__________________________________^^^^


,



 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
MIDDLE EASTERN FARMERS MIGRATED EUROPE. NORTH AFRICA, CENTRAL ASIA and NORTHERN INDIA about 9000 - 6000 years ago and thats why all these peoples resemble Mid East people.

Ancient Egyptians looking just like their Middle Eastern ancestors:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
As for Ramesses 3, I never said there were no Sub Saharan Africans in Egypt, just that the majority were MID EAST in origin.

---

And you're determining this from what? one gravesite that was Lower Egyptian AND then subject to Near East occupation for centuries? How do you determine their race by their haplogroup? Lets assume Upper Egypt was heavily J. Looking at the art and self portrayals they made, How do you know UPPER EGYPTIANS wouldn't have originally looked like this:





Native Near Easterners don't have to be white.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
He so desperately wants to believe that Upper Egyptians were a minority even though it's beyond dispute that they were the majority until the New Kingdom period. The "Middle-eastern" type only started dominating long after Egypt was established by Upper Egyptians -- a population with a common origin with "Nubians" of Upper Egypt and Sudan.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
There are different subclades to a Haplogroup. For example, Cameroons men carry R1B which originated in the Middle East and is the main Y-DNA of Europe. They do not carry the same subclade as Europeans or Middle Eastern people. Also, their MTDNA is overwhelmingly Sub-Saharan African.

Indigenous Middle Eastern people carry overwhelmingly Eurasian Haplogroups. Whereas Sudanese, Nubians, Ethiopians carry some Eurasian Haplogroups, but their MTDNA is overwhelmingly Sub Saharan and that is why they do not resemble indigenous Mid East people.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Nope, ancient Cultures of Lower Egypt were Middle Eastern and the first Culture of Upper Egypt was also Mid East in origin.

In fact, Mid East Caucasians have always lived in both Lower and Upper Egypt.

http://www.egyptorigins.org/ginger.htm

Ancient race war between People in Egypt resembling the peoples of Europe/Mid East and ancient Sudanese dated 13 000 years:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
All debunked nonsense. There was no "race-war" in "Nubia" 13k ago and there were no Middle-Eastern "Caucasians" in Upper Egypt fighting against "Sub-Saharans" in. the. Sahara. No evidence has been presented for such rot. E1b1a is African and this is the Y-DNA of the Pharaohs.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
Doug, i don't care whether a European ever lived who looked anything like the bust of Queen Nefertiti. make yourself useful and add the Mangbetu to the Wikipedia article, why don't you.

---

quote:

---

Ancient race war between People in Egypt resembling the peoples of Europe/Mid East and ancient Sudanese dated 13 000 years:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Nope, ancient Cultures of Lower Egypt were Middle Eastern and the first Culture of Upper Egypt was also Mid East in origin.

In fact, Mid East Caucasians have always lived in both Lower and Upper Egypt.

http://www.egyptorigins.org/ginger.htm

Ancient race war between People in Egypt resembling the peoples of Europe/Mid East and ancient Sudanese dated 13 000 years:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/saharan-remains-may-be-evidence-of-first-race-war-13000-years-ago-9603632.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:
He so desperately wants to believe that Upper Egyptians were a minority even though it's beyond dispute that they were the majority until the New Kingdom period. The "Middle-eastern" type only started dominating long after Egypt was established by Upper Egyptians -- a population with a common origin with "Nubians" of Upper Egypt and Sudan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
There are different subclades to a Haplogroup. For example, Cameroons men carry R1B which originated in the Middle East and is the main Y-DNA of Europe. They do not carry the same subclade as Europeans or Middle Eastern people. Also, their MTDNA is overwhelmingly Sub-Saharan African.

---

Do you have data on Cameroon MTDNA? And, even if it is overwhelmingly "Sub Saharan" if many of them are half R1B, why isn't their appearance more intermediate the way we would expect if half their ancestry came from white "Eurasians?" Some of the most mixed people in Cameroon visually meet the stereotype of how all blacks look.



This person is mixed with non African. I know West Africans that look more intermediate when compared against African stereotypes than him. Imagining a hypothetical world where "Eurasian" has to mean someone morphologically European, does this man look 50% "Eurasian" to you per that definition? So then what happened here?

quote:

---

Indigenous Middle Eastern people carry overwhelmingly Eurasian Haplogroups. Whereas Sudanese, Nubians, Ethiopians carry some Eurasian Haplogroups, but their MTDNA is overwhelmingly Sub Saharan and that is why they do not resemble indigenous Mid East people.

---

Again, how do you determine that there is one way to look Middle Eastern? I read what you said about subclades, so are you suggesting that ethnic groups and individuals that share the same subclade cannot vary in greatly in visual appearances depending on the environment they live in over thousands of years? I'm trying to see if I get what you're saying correctly. Because you just saw images of Near Easterners that didn't look at all like Europeans. Many of these subclades also existed before or right around the time of the expansion of the lighter skin characteristic of modern Europeans. Any back migrants didn't have to have lighter skin, nor did they have to have any other features that are often labeled "Eurasian." Which again brings us to the point of how you know the southern Egyptians that founded dynastic Egypt looked like Europeans.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Once again this is a MTDNA MAP:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Faa4sVFWpOk/TkRIQSwa-WI/AAAAAAAACe0/NxX0gCf8iYI/mtdnamapworld.jpg
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
At one time during the NEOLITHIC ERA Europeans, Middle Eastern people, Egyptians, North Africans and Central Asians LOOKED ALIKE.
They had light skin and dark hair, eyes.

Muslim expansion and black slavery 1400 years ago, has caused people in the Saudi Arabia to carry more black African MTDNA and the discovery of oil has caused MASS MIGRATION from Africans and Indians from
the Indian sub continent.

Saudi Arabians are 40% Indian/African
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18269758

DNA SHOWS EXACTLY WHERE IN THE WORLD YOU ORIGINATED. If you carry Haplogroup J and are an Ethiopia, ITS NOT LIKELY YOU SUBCLADE WILL BE THE SAME AS MID EAST PEOPLES!!!
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
The island of Socotra is found in the Gulf of Yemen. It has a LARGE AMOUNT of peoples who originally were runaway slaves. Does that make them the indigenous peoples of the Mid East? OH HELL NO>

They look like this:

 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
AGAIN AND AGAIN, the ancient mummies at Abusir el Meleq had light skin dark hair and eyes just like all the DNA taken from other mummies in Egypt and EXACTLY like modern Copts. They HAD NO SUB-SAHARAN DNA:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615

Daughters of the ancient Pharaohs:



 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Nubians looking NOTHING like Copts. Why??? They carry OVERWHELMINGLY Sub-Saharan African DNA, thats why they are considered SUB-SAHARAN AFRICANS:

 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Average men and women of the Levant:

Palestinian Christians are the oldest Christians in the world:


The Samaritans are the sons of the Israelites and are closely related to other Jews. They have lived in Israel for over 3000 years:


 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Igbo claiming to be the ancient Israelites DEBUNKED BY DNA. They dont have a single drop of MID EAST DNA:
http://www.stelladimokokorkus.com/2017/08/dna-result-reveals-igbos-are-not-jews.html

Bang goes African Americans pretending to be Hebrews, Israelites. Your ancestors GOT NONE.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
ROFL at the idea that late period samples from Northern Egypt is the final verdict on ancient Egypt's origins. The non "Nubian" Upper Egyptians in Luxor, Esna, Edfu and Kom Ombo are far better representatives of the ancient Egyptians than the Copts.

People in these areas in Upper Egypt are descendants of those that created ancient Egypt and the Copts are most likely descendants of Levantines that migrated en mass into Egypt long after the Southerners established the civilization.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Then there are other peoples like Ethiopian Jews claiming to be Israelites. They got NONE.

Although DNA taken from the Cochin Jews of India shows their ancestors were Jews:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groups_claiming_affiliation_with_Israelites
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
NOPE and NOPE. the Copts go back 30 000 years to the ancient Mid East.

They also go back 6000 years to the MIDDLE EASTERN White FARMERS WHO CAME INTO EGYPT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Egypt#Neolithic

These white Middle Eastern Farmers just went everywhere and replaced everyone:



 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Middle Eastern Farmer migrations

 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Even if one were to believe the Wikipedia entry that predynastic Lower Egyptian cultures were Levantine and that the Copts are their descendants...that would still be insufficient because ancient Egypt started in Upper Egypt where the population has a common origin with the "Nubians" of Upper Egypt and the people of North Sudan
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
AGAIN AND AGAIN, the ancient mummies at Abusir el Meleq had light skin dark hair and eyes just like all the DNA taken from other mummies in Egypt and EXACTLY like modern Copts. They HAD NO SUB-SAHARAN DNA:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
NOPE and NOPE. the Copts go back 30 000 years to the ancient Mid East.

They also go back 6000 years to the MIDDLE EASTERN White FARMERS WHO CAME INTO EGYPT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Egypt#Neolithic

These white Middle Eastern Farmers just went everywhere and replaced everyone:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
The island of Socotra is found in the Gulf of Yemen. It has a LARGE AMOUNT of peoples who originally were runaway slaves. Does that make them the indigenous peoples of the Mid East? OH HELL NO>

They look like this:

---

quote:

---

We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.

---

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012329


I'll ask again. Even if Cameroon is half Sub Saharan African, some people living in Cameroon are half Eurasian. So why would someone who is half "Eurasian" look like the guy below:


 

---

Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
 
Dinkum,

These people you are saying to be Samaritans, are not from Israel...They are Turks...Look at their hats, they still wearing Turkish hat..They arrived in Israel in 1800s.

About the Igbo not be jews..I am not sure if the DNA test done of them was correct, but, there are over 70 thousands Black Jewish people in the Subsahara.
They are the "LEMBA PEOPLE" living in Zimbabwe and other Subsaharan regions..

Here is an article about them on "The World Jewish Congress" webpage. In fact, they are descendants of ancient Jewish priesthood,"Aaron, brother of Moses.


Lemba tribe in southern Africa has Jewish roots, genetic tests reveal

Mon, 08 Mar 2010

Genetic tests carried out by British scientists have revealed that many of the Lemba tribesmen in southern Africa have Jewish origins, according to a report by the BBC. The Lemba, a tribe of 70,000 to 80,000 members who live in central Zimbabwe and northern South Africa, have customs which are similar to Jewish ones: Lemba refrain from eating pork or other foods forbidden by the Torah, or forbidden combinations of permitted foods, wear yarmulke-like skull caps, conduct ritual animal slaughter, have a holy day once a week, and even put a Star of David on their gravestones. According to their oral tradition, the Lemba are descended from seven Jewish men who left Israel 2,500 years ago and married African women, according to the BBC. The Lemba prefer their children to marry other Lembas, and marriage to non-Lembas is being discouraged.

Their sacred prayer language is a mixture of Hebrew and Arabic. Their religious artifact is a replica of the Biblical Ark of the Covenant known as the ‘ngoma lungundu’, meaning "the drum that thunders.” The object went on display recently at a museum in Harare, Zimbabwe, and has instilled pride in many of the Lemba. They say the ark was built almost 700 years ago from the remains of the original ark, which according to the Bible was used to store the Ten Commandments. For decades, the ancient vessel was thought to be lost until it was discovered in a storeroom in Harare recently.

Members of the priestly clan of the Lemba, the Buba – which is one of 12 clans – have a genetic element also found among the Jewish priestly line, known as Kohanim. "This was amazing," Professor Tudor Parfitt from the University of London told the BBC. "It looks as if the Jewish priesthood continued in the West by people called Cohen, and in same way it was continued by the priestly clan of the Lemba.”
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/lemba-tribe-in-southern-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
 

---

Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
 
MORE NEWS ABOUT SUBSAHARAN JEWS...

DNA Backs a Tribe's Tradition Of Early Descent From the Jews

Dr. Hammer, Dr. Skorecki and their colleagues reported in 1997 that they had analyzed the Y chromosomes of priests and lay Jews. They found that a particular pattern of DNA changes was much more common among the priests than among laymen. The pattern was equally recognizable in Ashkenazic and Sephardic priests, even though these two branches of the Jewish population have long been geographically separated.

A colleague in Dr. Hammer's and Dr. Skorecki's research was Neil Bradman, a businessman who is now chairman of the Center for Genetic Anthropology at University College, London. Mr. Bradman set about making a wider study of Jewish populations around the world through the lens of the Y chromosome technique.

One recruit to Mr. Bradman's project is David B. Goldstein, a population geneticist at Oxford University in England. Dr. Goldstein set about refining Dr. Hammer's work so as to develop a better genetic signature of Jewish populations.

''The problem is there has been intermingling with host populations, and that has obscured their common ancestry,'' Dr. Goldstein said.

He looked at a set of three Y chromosome sites with stable genetic mutations and six sites at which mutations occur quite often, a mix designed to give good resolution between similar Y chromosomes during historical times. The mutations are all at sites on the DNA strand that lie outside the genes, and thus do not contribute in any way to the individual's physical makeup.

He found a particular set of genetic mutations at these nine sites that was strongly associated with the priestly caste, not so common among lay Jews, and very rare in non-Jewish populations. Unlike forensic DNA markers, which are chosen to be almost wholly specific to individuals, this cohen-associated genetic signature cannot be used to say who is or who is not a priest. But it is highly diagnostic of whether a population has Jewish ancestry, Dr. Goldstein said.

He finds that 45 percent of Ashkenazi priests and 56 percent of Sephardic priests have the cohen genetic signature, while in Jewish populations in general the frequency is 3 to 5 percent.

Some of his subjects had the cohen genetic signature but with slight variations caused by mutations. From the pattern and number of mutations, Dr. Goldstein was able to calculate when the present-day bearers of the cohen genetic signature and its variations last shared a common ancestor. This date, when all the branches of the family tree coalesce into a single trunk, has a wide range of uncertainty and depends on several assumptions, like the number of years in a human generation and the rate of mutation. But assuming 25 years to a generation on average, Dr. Goldstein calculated the coalescence time as 2,650 years ago, or 3,180 years with a 30-year generation time.

Though they are only rough, these dates make an evocative match with the Jewish tradition that Moses assigned the priesthood to the male descendants of his brother Aaron after the Exodus from Egypt, believed to have occurred some 3,000 years ago. Dr. Goldstein and colleagues published this conclusion last July.

''In studying the priesthood, we happened into this tool for distinguishing Jewish from non-Jewish populations,'' Dr. Goldstein said. As part of Mr. Bradman's project on the relationship of Jewish populations, he then tested DNA samples collected from the Lemba. And last month, at a conference on human evolution held at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory in Long Island, Dr. Goldstein reported that 9 percent of Lemba men carried the cohen genetic signature, and of those who said they belonged to the Buba clan, 53 percent had the distinctive sequences. These proportions are similar to those found among the major Jewish populations.

Because the cohen genetic signature is rare or absent in all non-Jewish populations tested so far, the findings strongly support the Lemba tradition of Jewish ancestry. Dr. Goldstein said his findings had been submitted to the American Journal of Human Genetics.

How did a Jewish priestly male chromosome come to be found in a black, Bantu-speaking people that looks very much like its southern African neighbors? Dr. Parfitt, who says he believes he has found the answer, first came across the Lemba while giving a lecture in Johannesburg about Ethiopian Jews. Some people in the audience wearing yarmulkes told him they, too, were Jewish.

Dr. Parfitt visited their homes, which are in northern South Africa and Zimbabwe. Many of the Lemba, who number more than 50,000 people, are Christians, but they see no contradiction in professing Judaism, too. He learned that they had an enigmatic tradition about their origin: ''We came from the north, from a place called Senna. We left Senna, we crossed Pusela, we came to Africa and there we rebuilt Senna.''

Dr. Parfitt said that he was later traveling in the Hadramawt region, a former site of Jewish communities in Yemen, and mentioned the Lemba tradition of Senna to the religious leader of the holy city of Tarim. The leader was surprised to hear it because, he told Dr. Parfitt, there was a nearby village called Senna.

''So I went off to find Senna,'' Dr. Parfitt said. ''It's very remote and had never been visited by anyone before. The local tradition is that centuries ago the valley had been very fertile, irrigated by a dam, the ruins of which are still there. And then the dam burst, they think about a thousand years ago, and the people fled.''

There is a valley that leads from Senna to a port on the Yemeni coast called Sayhut. If the winds are right, a ship from Sayhut could reach southern Africa in nine days, Dr. Parfitt said. And the valley that leads from Senna to Sayhut is called the Wadi al-Masilah. Dr. Parfitt believes that Masilah may be the ''Pusela'' of the Lemba oral tradition.

The Lemba have clan names like Sadiqui and Hamisi that are ''clearly Semitic'' and that are also found in the eastern Hadramawt, Dr. Parfitt said.

Dr. Parfitt, who has described his work on the Lemba in a recent book, ''Journey to the Vanished City'' (Phoenix, London), said he had been excited to hear of Dr. Goldstein's genetic results confirming the Lemba tradition.

''I was soundly criticized by a number of colleagues for listening to this nonsense because they assumed the sense of a different origin had been imposed on the Lemba by missionaries,'' he said. ''As an anthropologist, I had a sense one should listen to what people say about themselves and shouldn't be too arrogant. It turned out that what they are saying about themselves is substantially correct.''

Dr. Parfitt said that in collecting samples from the Lemba -- a swab of cells scraped from inside the cheek -- he had first explained the purpose of the research to local chiefs and obtained their permission. He then told each individual what was involved, sometimes saying ''your blood carries important history, the footprints of your ancestors,'' if he could not explain the genetics.

Being very keen to know where they came from, the Lemba lined up to give samples, Dr. Parfitt said. They were so pleased to learn the results that Dr. Parfitt was made an honorary Lemba.

Dr. Parfitt said he was particularly appreciative of the honor because Lemba tradition prohibits outside men from becoming Lembas. Women may join but only after undergoing ritual purification that includes trials by fire, water, and being drawn through a hole in a large ants' nest.

This exclusion of outside males, Dr. Parfitt said, would explain why the cohen genetic signature has been preserved at high frequency among the Lemba for so many centuries.

http://www.nytimes.com/1999/05/09/us/dna-backs-a-tribe-s-tradition-of-early-descent-from-the-jews.html
 

---

Posted by Linda Fahr (Member # 21979) on :
 
Now...if those remind 70 thousand jewish living in the Subsaharan are Bantus...Image how many thousands were captured and sold as slaves to Europeans by the half arabs, and Muslims converted in Africa - Fulans?

Indeed, there may be thousands of Jewish descendants of Moses, living in the United States, and all over America Continent, including South America...
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Lemba are not Jews:
http://www.samj.org.za/index.php/samj/article/view/7297/5714

Nor are Igbo:

http://sunnewsonline.com/igbo-not-jews-reveals-dna-report/

Ethiopians are converts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groups_claiming_affiliation_with_Israelites

Samaritans are the SONS OF THE ISRAELITES:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans#Y-DNA_and_mtDNA_comparisons
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
The Abusir el Meleq mummies were in Central Egypt.
https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2017/1-thefirstgeno.jpg

The Tasian Culture was the first culture in Upper Egyptian. They were Middle eastern in origin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasian_culture
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Yes the earlier Egyptians in both North And Southern Egypt would have looked like this:

Admin:Over-sized picture removed.

There were Caucasians living in ancient Egypt 30 000 years ago. And yes, La Brana Man and Cheddar man were Caucasians with similar skull shapes as modern Europeans.



[ 11. February 2018, 06:49 AM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
please remove that first image. Its stretching the page...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
The Abusir el Meleq mummies were in Central Egypt.
https://3c1703fe8d.site.internapcdn.net/newman/gfx/news/hires/2017/1-thefirstgeno.jpg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:

The Tasian Culture was the first culture in Upper Egyptian. They were Middle eastern in origin:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasian_culture

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:


There were Caucasians living in ancient Egypt 30 000 years ago. And yes, La Brana Man and Cheddar man were Caucasians with similar skull shapes as modern Europeans.

---

If people really determined race by skull shape, Maasai and many other Sub Saharan Africans would be able to live as whites. Stop calling them "Caucasians" when you don't regard them as white. They are dark skinned, regardless of the shape of their skulls. Which brings me to my next questions (which you keep dodging): When did light skin become common in the Near East? When did it start spreading? You keep repeating this and that about 30,000 years ago, but 30,000 years ago light skin wasn't as common in humans as it was today. Many Near Easterners of the past if they did arrive back would look like this or some somewhat lighter shade of brown




The "Copt" look would've been a lot less common until 12,000 B.C at the earliest. So I want to know your source for light skin spreading so early among modern humans.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Yes the earlier Egyptians in both North And Southern Egypt would have looked like this:


There were Caucasians living in ancient Egypt 30 000 years ago. And yes, La Brana Man and Cheddar man were Caucasians with similar skull shapes as modern Europeans.

---

Delusional bunk. There were no "caucasians" in Egypt 30k ago. The ancient Egyptians were mahogany-btown -- like the vast majority of the paintings.

The Tasians were closely related to the "Nubian" cultures and other African cultures in Upper Egypt.
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
@sudaniya Please remove that big@$$ image.
 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
We have the mummies ancestry results. Its the YL mummy

Her parents

And we have a whole lot more art


That Nefertiti bust is probably a forgery.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:


That Nefertiti bust is probably a forgery.

---

based on what?
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Ancient Egyptians and black Africans, Uip they look exactly alike:

 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 


Ancient Egyptians never portrayed themselves the same as Black Africans

 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Another nasty shock for Afrocentrics. Angelina Jolie to play Cleopatra in a movie.

Cleopatra was a Macedonian Greek in origin:

Macedonian Greek ladies (they all look like Nefertiti)


 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
snip trolling

---

Hey asshole you planning on responding to anyone's criticism?

no, because you don't know shit and you know, somewhere in the dim recesses of your shrunken mind, that you could't even out-debate some Afrocentric cranks on a fringe website

lol pussy
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
There has NEVER EVER been any Haplogroups taken from the Amarna Mummies and NO respected scientific research sites have any results from the Amarna Mummies. DNATRIBES who were a bunch of idiots who never touched any mummies has since gone bankrupt.

The AMARNA MUMMIES were all Mid East Caucasians like the majority of ancient Egyptians;

Hair analysis of Tjuyu and Yuya shows they were NATURAL BLONDES:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/new-research-shows-some-ancient-egyptians-were-naturally-fair-haired-005812


 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
There has NEVER EVER been any Haplogroups taken from the Amarna Mummies and NO respected scientific research sites have any results from the Amarna Mummies. DNATRIBES who were a bunch of idiots who never touched any mummies has since gone bankrupt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:


Hair analysis of Tjuyu and Yuya shows they were NATURAL BLONDES:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/new-research-shows-some-ancient-egyptians-were-naturally-fair-haired-005812

---

quote:

---

According to Dr. Janet Davey from the Victorian Institute of Forensic Medicine in Australia, some ancient Egyptians were naturally blonde or red haired....

An article published recently by The Sydney Morning Herald says that the mystery of the red and blonde hair discovered on some ancient Egyptian mummies may finally be solved....

Dr. Davey is convinced that there were fair-haired Egyptians, but believes that the fair-haired mummies are just very rare. This is why Egyptologists used to believe that lighter hair color was created during the mummification process. Moreover, Davey suggests that there were blondes living in Egypt during the Graeco-Roman Period (332 BC – 395 AD).

---

quote:

---

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/some-ancient-egyptians-were-natural-blondes-20160426-gof9hn.html


Sydney Morning Herald

However, Dr Davey said, she was now convinced that there were blondes dotted among the ancient Egyptian population during the Graeco-Roman period, which spanned from 332 BC to around 395 AD.

She said it made sense. The child mummies had fair hair because they lived during the rule of the Greeks and the Romans. This era would have brought many new genes into Egypt, via the Northern Greek and Roman soldiers as well as traders and slaves who may have had northern European genes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:


Ancient Egyptians never portrayed themselves the same as Black Africans

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Another nasty shock for Afrocentrics. Angelina Jolie to play Cleopatra in a movie.

Cleopatra was a Macedonian Greek in origin:

Macedonian Greek ladies (they all look like Nefertiti)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:


Ancient Egyptians never portrayed themselves the same as Black Africans

---

Those "black Africans" were Sudanese--where the dynastic culture of Egypt came from. If you're admitting that ancient Sudanese were black, you're putting your foot in your mouth again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
I see different racial groups in the reliefs you reproduce below; the hair texture, skin tone and facial features are distinct between the two groups.

---

More lala land? When you're ready to truthfully discuss in this thread who is treated as black for real and not in your little fantasy textbooks where you write about "dark Caucasoids" that are treated as blacks in REALITY, then you are welcome to approach this subject. Otherwise shut up. I didn't want to be rude but I'm not going to shuck for this. You know full well none of what you said has to make anybody white. A Masai, Afar and Egyptian Nubian is black as far as anyone is concerned. You got plenty of blacks in your European countries that look just like both black people in that image.
 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
To you are these women "black" and if so what is your definition of the racial term, "black"?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
I see different racial groups in the reliefs you reproduce below; the hair texture, skin tone and facial features are distinct between the two groups.

---

More lala land? When you're ready to truthfully discuss in this thread who is treated as black for real and not in your little fantasy textbooks where you write about "dark Caucasoids" that are treated as blacks in REALITY, then you are welcome to approach this subject. Otherwise shut up. I didn't want to be rude but I'm not going to shuck for this. You know full well none of what you said has to make anybody white. A Masai, Afar and Egyptian Nubian is black as far as anyone is concerned. Any differences in hair texture, skin tone and face morphology from the "negroid" stereotype don't change that. And you got plenty of blacks in your European countries that look just like both black people in that image.

---

 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
You have a severe problem separating fact from fiction if you really think that in your countries people like this





or them




Are going to be white in your countries. Just STOP. Any differences in hair texture, skin tone and face morphology from the "negroid" stereotype don't change that. Just like how whites can have a bunch of hair colors, eye colors and range from olive to white, blacks vary in phenotype. I didn't say that to be black simply requires dark skin, but the morphology attributed to blackness as well as the African connotations generally attributed to blacks apply to Egypt as a geographically African area that's people originally were phenotypically within range of the blacks living in your countries right now.
 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
Okay so at least we can agree, racially, "black" is not just skin color, but other biological traits play a role as well. My next question to you is do you personally subscribe to biological reality of race?
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
No. I believe features for example can be socially attributed to race.
 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
okay, so, basically you subscribe to the social construct of race but acknowledge its unscientific validity. In other words, you are willing to dabble in pseudoscience if it suits your agenda to convey a belief of yours. Is that a fair assessment?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:
No. I believe features for example can be socially attributed to race.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
@frank people can use whatever color or name to describe themselves, here's a lady who is have Ghanaian and Japan,Karen nun ira.

http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/b0a4e16df7ba4b36ab64d90853b326c3/narita-airport-chiba-japan-2nd-sep-2014-karen-nunira-jpn-a-press-conference-e6y9gt.jpg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
okay, so, basically you subscribe to the social construct of race but acknowledge its unscientific validity. In other words, you are willing to dabble in pseudoscience if it suits your agenda to convey a belief of yours. Is that a fair assessment?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
okay, so, basically you subscribe to the social construct of race but acknowledge its unscientific validity. In other words, you are willing to dabble in pseudoscience if it suits your agenda to convey a belief of yours. Is that a fair assessment?

---

Race isn't biologically valid, but it is a real social construct that has real life impact to human beings based on their appearance. If I discuss race, I am not discussing "race" as a biological construct but a sociological one. Which means if I discuss race, it'd be to discuss aspects of appearance that harbor social impact.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
A social construct is something imaginary

Therefore things can exist physically

and imaginary things also exist if a society believes them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
A social construct is something imaginary

Therefore things can exist physically

and imaginary things also exist if a society believes them.

---

I pose the same questions to you. In this social construction of race, by what trait are you categorized? Only skin tone or other traits besides skin tone?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
okay, so, basically you subscribe to the social construct of race but acknowledge its unscientific validity. In other words, you are willing to dabble in pseudoscience if it suits your agenda to convey a belief of yours. Is that a fair assessment?

---

Race isn't biologically valid, but it is a real social construct that has real life impact to human beings based on their appearance. If I discuss race, I am not discussing "race" as a biological construct but a sociological one. Which means if I discuss race, it'd be to discuss aspects of appearance that harbor social impact.

---

Two part question: (1) In the United States, is a dark skin with curly hair North African treated the same as an African American? (2) Is there a color, hair texture and facial phenotype hierarchy in the US?

---

Yes, they can be treated the same. Many darker to mid tone northern Africans look like many blacks in the United States.

These kids:



Look distinct from a lot of west African blacks, but they look like a lot of blacks in the U.S. This is why a lot of blacks (especially in the U.S) don't think of everyone in North Africa as one race. Calling them "whites" fantasy.
 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
These Asian men, they have black skin like Black Americans but their hair and facial features are wholly different. When they come to America, are they categorized under the race "Black" and are they socially treated the same way as blacks?

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
A social construct is something imaginary

Therefore things can exist physically

and imaginary things also exist if a society believes them.

---

I pose the same questions to you. In this social construction of race, by what trait are you categorized? Only skin tone or other traits besides skin tone?

---

Many people in this forum say that "black" is skin color alone.

However the word is mainly applied to brown skinned people and there is no agreed in standard as to what level of brownness constitutes "black" or logical explanation as to calling brown people black.

The average European subscribes to this color only somewhat. They might call a light brown Turk "black" , depending on the country

But most Americans define "black" as "African looking" and includes hair and feature traits as well.

a) brown skin
b) afro hair
c) broad features

According to the American habits you can have 2 out of 3 and be black

Other people say the terms "white and "black" are stereotypes, unqualifiable obsolete terms and should not be used to categorize people as a social construct or in any form

---

 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
This is what I am referring to:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
okay, so, basically you subscribe to the social construct of race but acknowledge its unscientific validity. In other words, you are willing to dabble in pseudoscience if it suits your agenda to convey a belief of yours. Is that a fair assessment?

---

Race isn't biologically valid, but it is a real social construct that has real life impact to human beings based on their appearance. If I discuss race, I am not discussing "race" as a biological construct but a sociological one. Which means if I discuss race, it'd be to discuss aspects of appearance that harbor social impact.

---

Two part question: (1) In the United States, is a dark skin with curly hair North African treated the same as an African American? (2) Is there a color, hair texture and facial phenotype hierarchy in the US?

---

Yes, they can be treated the same. Many darker to mid tone northern Africans look like many blacks in the United States.

These kids:



Look distinct from a lot of west African blacks, but they look like a lot of blacks in the U.S. This is why a lot of blacks (especially in the U.S) don't think of everyone in North Africa as one race. Calling them "whites" fantasy.

---

 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
By the way The Lioness, I agree on the definition of Black you provided.
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
The guy in the red shirt is the redbone or high yellow prince looking guy in the pews.



His look does exist among African Americans, but it's a lot less common than the southern Egyptian look.



 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
we are dealing with a common or average look. You would have better footing to argue the two men look Dominican. They more than likely would be treated as Hispanics in the US.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:
The guy in the red shirt is the redbone or high yellow prince looking guy in the pews.



His look does exist among African Americans, but it's a lot less common than the southern Egyptian look.

---

 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
This is the black situation, especially with Saharan Africa.


A man is treated as black and subject to some of the cruelest experiences ever recorded, but he looks like this:



Sees people that there were Africans that built pyramids that look like this:





But is told that blacks are only blacks if they look like this:


 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 
Your example falls within the range of an Afro-American look. But you ignored the example I provided of the North Africans with brown complexion and curly hair who are unmistakenly NOT AA. Like the Lioness pointed out, how black is viewed in American society is based on several physical traits, not just one as you imply.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:
This is the black situation, especially with Saharan Africa.


A man is treated as black and subject to some of the cruelest experiences ever recorded, but he looks like this:



Sees people that there were Africans that built pyramids that look like this:





But is told that blacks are only blacks if they look like this:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
we are dealing with a common or average look. You would have better footing to argue the two men look Dominican. They more than likely would be treated as Hispanics in the US.

---

The average look doesn't mean that people that deviate a bit from the average aren't black or aren't AA. Europeans are still trained to look at a man that looks like this:




And know he's black. "Hispanic" is also not a race. Not that it really matters though honestly. I didn't say all of North Africa looked black, and many people in Cairo especially a lot of Copts do not look black at all. Though as most people mention here, Egyptian culture came south to north, not north to south.
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
Non black hispanic






Black Hispanic


 

---

Posted by Frankly Kemet (Member # 22882) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
we are dealing with a common or average look. You would have better footing to argue the two men look Dominican. They more than likely would be treated as Hispanics in the US.

---

The average look doesn't mean that people that deviate a bit from the average aren't black or aren't AA. Europeans are still trained to look at a man that looks like this:




And know he's black. "Hispanic" is also not a race. Not that it really matters though honestly. I didn't say all of North Africa looked black, and many people in Cairo especially a lot of Copts do not look black at all. Though as most people mention here, Egyptian culture came south to north, not north to south.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thereal:
@frank I'm not sure why you're hard pressed on trying to define people of African descent,if you accept the out of Africa event then it's easy to explain humanity the issue is whether you're a contemporary or ancient African and whether the contemporary African have remain the same or change because of a reduction in genetic diversity and possibly population replacement throughout the ages.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Unfortunately, it seems some people cannot accept reality. All my posts came with respected sources.

Why is it okay to put up tons of Sub-Saharan Africans and claim they are the supposedly real descendants of ancient Egyptians, WHEN DNA, HAIR ANALYSIS and FORENSIC SCIENCE RECREATIONS just debunked them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Unfortunately, it seems some people cannot accept reality. All my posts came with respected sources.

Why is it okay to put up tons of Sub-Saharan Africans and claim they are the supposedly real descendants of ancient Egyptians, WHEN DNA, HAIR ANALYSIS and FORENSIC SCIENCE RECREATIONS just debunked them?

---

The Upper Egyptians in Luxor, Esna, Kom Ombo, Edfu and Aswan are the true descendants of the ancient Egyptians; the rulers of the 11th dynasty were from Aswan. Like their ancestors, people from the aforementioned areas are mahogany-brown. These people are not "Sub-Saharan" and are most likely the best representatives of the Upper Egyptian predynastic cultures that established ancient Egypt.

The predynastic cultures of Upper Egypt are not transplants from the Levant - as you argue; they are derived from populations that have been in the Nile Valley for tens of thousands of years.

Late period DNA results from areas exposed to large-scale Levantine immigration are about as useful as using the DNA of modern Anglo-Australians to study ancient Australian biological affinities.

Until you produce early period results from Southern Egypt - you will not have anything of substance.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 











Something I find tricky with both of these reconstructions is that they often show these things in dark lighting giving us the momentary impression that they are darker. Then in other photos under well lit conditions they look lighter in the realm of Europeans, that actual color of the reconstruction
--and not with the high yellow tone you sometimes see in North Africa.

Another problem, I said it earlier is that the eyes are depicted brown not black. I think black would be a better assumption

Also the fleshy parts of these people's face, nose and lips when they were alive is hard to predict from these mummies

And for Tutankhamen in particular all the Egyptian art has him medium brown not in the above color in the reconstruction


here 's the Today Show VIDEO everybody is talking about:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZydU7Pz7RA




look at how light it's coming off on TV__________________^^^

Do I think the Berlin bust should be the sole determinant of the skin tone? No
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Unfortunately, it seems some people cannot accept reality. All my posts came with respected sources.

Why is it okay to put up tons of Sub-Saharan Africans and claim they are the supposedly real descendants of ancient Egyptians, WHEN DNA, HAIR ANALYSIS and FORENSIC SCIENCE RECREATIONS just debunked them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
This is a Y-DNA Map of Indigenous Peoples:

Sub Saharan Africans (including Sudanese) are NOT closely related to Mid East people. They carry Y-DNA A ans are more closely related to Khoisan:



This is a MTDNA Map of indigenous peoples of the world. It speaks for itself:

---

quote:

---

Colored dots indicate genetic diversity. Each new group outside of Africa represents a sampling of the genetic diversity present in its founder population. The ancestral population in Africa was sufficiently large to build up and retain substantial genetic diversity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Some people wont accept the recreations of white Egyptians but are quite happy to accept Cheddar Man recreation. Whats the difference? Both were done with 3D imaging.

I also think the scientists doing the recreating of ancient Egyptians (which have all been Caucasians) know a lot more about their subject. King Tut is probably the most researched ancient mummy ever. Im also sure they know what Haplogroups he carried. They just havent been published yet. Hopefully the Amarna Dynasty results will come out soon. Whats the bet they're probably Middle Eastern in origin just like the majority of the other mummies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Some people wont accept the recreations of white Egyptians but are quite happy to accept Cheddar Man recreation. Whats the difference? Both were done with 3D imaging.

---

It's because it looks nothing like how the Egyptians portrayed her, not even the busts.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
The real Nefriti, my my look at those lips .. lol



Limestone trial piece showing the head of Nefertiti. This drawing of the Queen, with the lips cut out, was found in the 1890s in Amarna. It shares the iconic features of the Berlin bust. Petrie Museum, London. (Photo: Osama Shukir Muhammed Amin FRCP(Glasg )


"the Younger Lady as Nefertiti"



Right profile view of the ‘Younger Lady’ mummy from KV35. Over the years, experts have proposed various names, ranging from Nefertiti to Sitamun, to identify this person. Wikimedia Commons.

"Given the age and poor state of preservation of the Younger Lady, the theories proposed pertaining to her are insufficient, circumstantial, and inconclusive. So not everyone is convinced cent percent that the mummy used to create this face is indeed Nefertiti. Some sections seem to want to state positively that DNA has “proven” the relationship between certain individuals of the Amarna period, but extracting DNA from Egyptian mummies has proven troublesome, and whether or not the results are truly as accurate as some wish to believe, is a debatable point. Over the last decade there have been many attempts with varying and ambiguous results."


http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/bust-contention-nefertiti-s-sculpture-raises-issues-race-and-color-part-ii-021826

The mummy is a white slave lol...

@Dinkum

What is your skin in the game? What is your ethnicity, North African? Jewish? Euro?

What is your political point of view? Right Wing? Left Wing? Nationalist? Zionist?

As a New World tri racial I don't subscribe to any centricism but I am adverse to Euro-centricism since it is used as a tool/mechanism for world economic domination and enslavement of indigenous populations and theft of their natural resources.

All science is biased or the interpretation of results is biased. All science or the study of it has confirmation bias see Schrodinger's cat

The question that I find fascinating is why Euro's & Asians run back to Africa during Glacial Maximums and Minimums? Climate change is normal. Where do humans survive during these changes? what is the most stable environment for humans on the planet?Maybe the place with the most human DNA diversity. Continental African diversity is a feature not a bug. Geology, geology, ancient geology is the key. 10k years ago during a glacial maximum there was was no "Arabia" there was only an African continuum from SW India to Eastern Africa.


Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2016-05-evidence-ice-age-refugium-arabia.html#jCp

The last Ice Age made much of the globe uninhabitable, but there were oases - or refugia - where people 20,000 years ago were able to cluster and survive

"The new discoveries about an Ice Age refugium in Arabia and the subsequent outward migration are based on a study of a rare mitochondrial DNA lineage named R0a, which, uniquely, is most frequent in Arabia and the Horn of Africa. Dr Gandini and her co-researchers have reached the conclusion that this lineage is more ancient than previously thought and that it has a deeper presence in Arabia than was earlier believed. This makes the case for at least one glacial refugium during the Pleistocene period, which spanned the Ice Age"

https://phys.org/news/2016-05-evidence-ice-age-refugium-arabia.html


Why don't you ask the Chinese who are busy building roads in the interior of West Africa? Buying up huge tracks of land for farming in East Africa? The Indians are doing likewise.

Can there be a world power who dominates without the African continent and it's resources? Ask the ancient Egyptians who had normal trading with the interior which begins at Aswan/Elephantine. Ask the Alexander the Great? Ask the Romans? Ask the British Empire? Ask the Chinese who now Aspire to world domination.

What is not being counted or measured in the current DNA data is human extinction, or the politically correct word ghost population. Where is this extinction most located at?

"Africa has always been inhabited by Caucasians" so the DNA says...modern myth making is a prelude to re invasion/colonization/exploitation/destruction for planetary survival as climate change is normal, and most Euro countries become once again uninhabitable.

The reconstruction is just another form of mythmaking, white folk version of we wuz kangz..


See Tarzan King of the Jungle
See Nattie Bumpo
See Dances with wolves
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:


Ancient Egypt started from the South and only results from the South will settle this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Some people wont accept the recreations of white Egyptians but are quite happy to accept Cheddar Man recreation. Whats the difference? Both were done with 3D imaging.

---

It's because it looks nothing like how the Egyptians portrayed her, not even the busts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Middle Eastern peoples had white skin before Europeans and took white skin into South and Central Europe replacing the brown,blue eyed Cro-Magnon peoples.
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

There is something called DNA typing which can show what skin colour, eye colour and hair colour an ancient human had, Like the Cheddar Man recreation. DNA taken from the Abusir el Meleq mummies showed they had light skin, dark eyes and hair.

The Semitic language originated about 3800 years ago in the Mid East so it was long after the Mid East Farmers migrated into Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
we are dealing with a common or average look. You would have better footing to argue the two men look Dominican. They more than likely would be treated as Hispanics in the US.

---

The average look doesn't mean that people that deviate a bit from the average aren't black or aren't AA. Europeans are still trained to look at a man that looks like this:




And know he's black. "Hispanic" is also not a race. Not that it really matters though honestly. I didn't say all of North Africa looked black, and many people in Cairo especially a lot of Copts do not look black at all. Though as most people mention here, Egyptian culture came south to north, not north to south.

---

so lets try to bring this full circle, what are the physical markers Americans look for to identify someone as racially "Black"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Some people wont accept the recreations of white Egyptians but are quite happy to accept Cheddar Man recreation. Whats the difference? Both were done with 3D imaging.

I also think the scientists doing the recreating of ancient Egyptians (which have all been Caucasians) know a lot more about their subject. King Tut is probably the most researched ancient mummy ever. Im also sure they know what Haplogroups he carried. They just havent been published yet. Hopefully the Amarna Dynasty results will come out soon. Whats the bet they're probably Middle Eastern in origin just like the majority of the other mummies.

---

Keep dreaming that Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye produced "Middle-Eastern" descendants. I look forward to the release of early dynasty Upper Egyptian DNA results. The "majority" of the mummies were from the North and were from the late period; a period in which Asiatics had already entrenched themselves demographically after they poured into Egypt en mass in the 11th dynasty and settled in the exact area where these mummies were sourced from.

Ancient Egypt started from the South and only results from the South will settle this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
we are dealing with a common or average look. You would have better footing to argue the two men look Dominican. They more than likely would be treated as Hispanics in the US.

---

The average look doesn't mean that people that deviate a bit from the average aren't black or aren't AA. Europeans are still trained to look at a man that looks like this:




And know he's black. "Hispanic" is also not a race. Not that it really matters though honestly. I didn't say all of North Africa looked black, and many people in Cairo especially a lot of Copts do not look black at all. Though as most people mention here, Egyptian culture came south to north, not north to south.

---

so lets try to bring this full circle, what are the physical markers Americans look for to identify someone as racially "Black"?

---

Ask the question in reverse and you will get your answer. What does it take to pass for white in America? There are many books, articles and stories on how mixed race people hid their African identity.. this is a good story from recently when a white woman found out her Grandfather was black

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNiEBnOzgVw

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Some people wont accept the recreations of white Egyptians but are quite happy to accept Cheddar Man recreation. Whats the difference? Both were done with 3D imaging.

I also think the scientists doing the recreating of ancient Egyptians (which have all been Caucasians) know a lot more about their subject. King Tut is probably the most researched ancient mummy ever. Im also sure they know what Haplogroups he carried. They just havent been published yet. Hopefully the Amarna Dynasty results will come out soon. Whats the bet they're probably Middle Eastern in origin just like the majority of the other mummies.

---

Keep dreaming that Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye produced "Middle-Eastern" descendants. I look forward to the release of early dynasty Upper Egyptian DNA results. The "majority" of the mummies were from the North and were from the late period; a period in which Asiatics had already entrenched themselves demographically after they poured into Egypt en mass in the 11th dynasty and settled in the exact area where these mummies were sourced from.

Ancient Egypt started from the South and only results from the South will settle this.

---

True, but as for Queen Tiyes parents they were natural blondes. Even Wiki states they were West Asian:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuya

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/new-research-shows-some-ancient-egyptians-were-naturally-fair-haired-005812

---

Yes, a black African woman had parents that were natural blondes.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Yatunde Lisa: Im a atheist Jew.

DNA taken from ancient Egyptians is becoming very common. There has already been 4 different areas in Egypt where DNA has been taken from ancient mummies. Hopefully, the Amarna mummies will be next.

MTDNA R0a originated in the Mid East:


Its parent group MTDNA R is South Asia or South East Asian in origin.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Yatunde Lisa: Im a atheist Jew.

DNA taken from ancient Egyptians is becoming very common. There has already been 4 different areas in Egypt where DNA has been taken from ancient mummies. Hopefully, the Amarna mummies will be next.

MTDNA R0a originated in the Mid East:


Its parent group MTDNA R is South Asia or South East Asian in origin.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
LOL I dont care if Jews have Sub-Saharan DNA.

I wish that Palestinians and Jews could peacefully co-exist. I write to a lot of Egyptians. They dont see themselves as Middle Eastern and Copts especially, do not see themselves as anything but the ancient Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

The mahogany-brown Egyptians are direct descendants of the predynastic Upper Egyptian cultures that established ancient Egypt

---

quote:

---

There is something called DNA typing which can show what skin colour, eye colour and hair colour an ancient human had, Like the Cheddar Man recreation. DNA taken from the Abusir el Meleq mummies showed they had light skin, dark eyes and hair.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:


there is not enough coverage in the ancient samples or at this point even enough understanding of genetics of pigmentation for good prediction of skin colouring. the best coverage sample is JK2911, who is from the Late Period.

his genotype (per genetiker) is rs1426654-A (probably AA) in SLC24A5, rs16891982-CC in SLC45A2, and rs1042602-GG in TYR.

now rs1426654-A (light skin allele) is very common, most MENA people and virtually all Europeans have AA. Pakistanis have like 75% AA, North Indians 50% AA. even Ethiopians, Somalis, and South Indians have ~50-60% allele frequency, so ~30% AA (assuming Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium which we shouldn't really).

rs16891982-G (light skin allele) is less common outside of Europe but it is still pretty frequent in MENA. in Egypt varies from 14% in Aswan to 65% in Alexandria. mostly 50-60% in North Africa. it is only ~15% in North India, 6% in Bangladesh, and almost zero in the Horn. so CC which JK2911 has (homozygous for dark skin allele) would be found in most South Egyptians, South Asians, Horners, etc, but only 10-35% of North Africans.

rs1402602-A (light skin allele) has a somewhat different distribution, it has around 25-40% frequency in northern and middle Europe but reaches ~55% in Tuscans and Sardinians. it reaches almost 50% in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria and Druze from the Levant, ~30% in Arab populations from Israel. (i don't have data for the Horn or most of MENA. also sample sizes are rather small so don't take these AFs as precise.) also surprisingly common in Pakistan where it is about 25% in Sindhis, 30% in Pathans, and 50% in Kalash. so again JK2911 has GG (homozygous for dark skin allele) which only a minority of Mozabites and about half of Pakistanis and Israeli Arabs would have. no idea about Egypt.

now as far as these 3 genes go over 90% of Mozabites would be lighter-skinned than JK2911, as would most modern Delta Egyptians and Levantine Arabs. 30% of Horners would be as light. average Southern Egyptians or Pakistanis would be closest.

however even these three rather large-effect variants account for only a minority of the variation in human skin colour, so really could be anything from fairly dark brown to light olive.

but you could always look at paintings and mummy skin lol

---

quote:

---

The Semitic language originated about 3800 years ago in the Mid East so it was long after the Mid East Farmers migrated into Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages

---

Dark skin was still around in the Europe until 5kya. In the Near East we also know dark skin was still around 6kya because Socotra arabs who entered the island at that time retained their dark skin. Proto Semetic is before this time period and Semetic would've been emerging at around the same time give or take a few centuries. Proto Indo European would've also been around thousands of years before. The Ancient Egyptians spoke neither Indo-European, nor Semetic. Please understand that I'm not asking when people started becoming lighter than a Dinka and developed complexions you can find in northern Sudan. I'm talking about modern European skin tones.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Like I said before, there was a migration of African slaves into Socotra. What ancient Socotra looked like and modern Socotra look like is two different things. Or are you trying to say that the original peoples of Socotra for some strange reason didnt interbreed with the escaped slaves? This has happened throughout the Arabian Peninsula. Yemeni people carry up to 35% African MTDNA. Saudi Arabia has 40% Black and Indian MTDNA:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18269758

This also applies to Egypt and North Africa who have a large percentage of Black African MTDNA from slavery. This does not apply to the Copts who had no slaves.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
Indians have been living in Socotra since the first century BCE
Thats why some Socotra islanders look like this:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socotra
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
The Arabian Peninsula is very mixed because of massive migrations since the discovery of oil and slavery from Sub Saharan Africa.

The way the ancient peoples of the Middle East looked, are the Christians peoples and other ethnic groups who by and large keep to themselves and therefore are the least mixed peoples in the Mid East.

These are the descendants of the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia:

Yazidi



Assyrians:
https://i2.wp.com/blackholezoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Akitu.jpg?resize=640%2C533
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Like I said before, there was a migration of African slaves into Socotra. What ancient Socotra looked like and modern Socotra look like is two different things. Or are you trying to say that the original peoples of Socotra for some strange reason didnt interbreed with the escaped slaves?

---

quote:

---

We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
Two part question: (1) In the United States, is a dark skin with curly hair North African treated the same as an African American? (2) Is there a color, hair texture and facial phenotype hierarchy in the US?

---

1. It depends. They could look just like an African American but if they were from Egypt they were considered white. This was part of claiming Egypt. Some states considered Berbers black regardless of phenotype. Not to say a pale Berber couldn't pass.

2.
 

---

Posted by Dinkum (Member # 22875) on :
 
From a GENUINE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH PAPER.

White skin originated in CENTRAL ASIA about 8000 years ago and was taken into Europe by the very white Middle Eastern Farmers. (who also migrated into WEgypt) White skin developed separately in Northern Europe
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

5000 year old British man of Stonehenge recreated:


 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 
Just in case you missed:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Like I said before, there was a migration of African slaves into Socotra. What ancient Socotra looked like and modern Socotra look like is two different things. Or are you trying to say that the original peoples of Socotra for some strange reason didnt interbreed with the escaped slaves?

---

quote:

---

We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
[QB] Yatunde Lisa: Im a atheist Jew.

DNA taken from ancient Egyptians is becoming very common. There has already been 4 different areas in Egypt where DNA has been taken from ancient mummies. Hopefully, the Amarna mummies will be next.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
From a GENUINE SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH PAPER.

White skin originated in CENTRAL ASIA about 8000 years ago and was taken into Europe by the very white Middle Eastern Farmers. (who also migrated into WEgypt) White skin developed separately in Northern Europe
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

5000 year old British man of Stonehenge recreated:

---

quote:

---

Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin. The other gene variant, SLC45A2, was at low levels until about 5800 years ago when it swept up to high frequency.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
READ VERY SLOWLY

The Egyptian authorities DO NOT allow private DNA companies to take DNA from their mummies. All the above private companies took NO DNA from ancient Egyptian mummies and their results are NOT found on any respected scientific papers

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:
Just in case you missed:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Like I said before, there was a migration of African slaves into Socotra. What ancient Socotra looked like and modern Socotra look like is two different things. Or are you trying to say that the original peoples of Socotra for some strange reason didnt interbreed with the escaped slaves?

---

This has already been debunked since last page:

quote:

---

We collected samples throughout the island and analyzed mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomal variation. We found little African influence among the indigenous people of the island. Although the island population likely experienced founder effects, links to the Arabian Peninsula or southwestern Asia can still be found. In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups. Specifically, we identified two high-frequency founder lineages that have not been detected in any other populations and classified them as a new R0a1a1 subclade. Recent expansion of the novel lineages is consistent with a Holocene settlement of the island approximately 6 kya.

---

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19012329


The "strange reason" is long term isolation. They are a glimpse of what the Middle East looked like 6,000 years ago. If dark skin were wiped out, the Socotra Islanders would've been white.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
READ VERY SLOWLY

The Egyptian authorities DO NOT allow private DNA companies to take DNA from their mummies. All the above private companies took NO DNA from ancient Egyptian mummies and their results are NOT found on any respected scientific papers

---

Lol What they say about pride before the fall. The data was public. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/185393 Goto figues and tables Same thing Time Magzine used for paternity. The Armana mummies have been tested and analysed.


 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
http://www.ancient-origins.net/history/kiya-most-mysterious-woman-amarna-005092/page/0/1




Kiya was known to be a wife of Akhenaten, pictured in this relief carving



The mummy revealed the truth
The most fascinating part of the research about Kiya is connected with the mummy of the Younger Lady discovered in tomb KV35. It was the second ''cachette'', after DB320, found with royal mummies inside. The tomb, which was reopened in 1907, was the final resting place for two women known as the Younger Lady and the Elder Lady, who were found lying next to each other.

Dr Joann Fletcher, the famous Egyptologist from York University, announced in 2004 that the Younger Lady was the beautiful Queen Nefertiti. French researcher, Marc Gabolde, in his recently published theory, follows Fletcher's opinion.

DNA tests, which were carried out on 11 mummies by the team of the Supreme Council of Antiquities, the National Geographic Society and Siemens, revealed the following: Tutankhamun’s father is very likely the man found in tomb KV55 – Akhenaten; the Elder Lady is Queen Tiye, mother of Akhenaten and wife of Amenhotep III; the mother of Tutankhamun is the Younger Lady, the daughter of Tiye and Amenhotep III; and Tutankhamun’s parents were brother and sister.

Amenhotep III



Regarding the inscriptions found in the tomb of Pharaoh Ay,



Nefertiti was his daughter and the sister of Mutnedjmet – wife of Pharaoh Haremhab. (not related to the preceding dynasty a commoner)



This means that Nefertiti was in fact a niece of Queen Tiye. According to inscription from the Theban tomb of Ay, the results of research by Joann Fletcher are incorrect. It is unknown which of the several sisters of Akhenaten the Younger Lady is, but the role and special title of Kiya could be a hint. Currently the majority of Egyptologists, including Zahi Hawass, believe that Younger Lady was The Great Beloved wife of Akhenaten – Kiya.

The researcher who started to analyze artifacts connected with Kiya experienced a painful lack of information about her. Apart from the mysterious mummy, the most important artifacts connected to Kiya are four canopic jars found in tomb KV55. Currently one of her jars is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the other three are in Cairo. They are impressive examples of New Kingdom art, with the face of the lid carved as a portrait. The lid of the jar represents one of the royal women of Amarna, variously identified as Nefertiti, Tiye, Merytamen or Kiya. Analysis of the erased inscriptions on the jars showed that the face of the woman with a long slender nose, sensuous lips and sloe eyes probably belonged to Kiya


 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
Don't forget the Ay bust.
This is the uncle of the mummy used for the recreation.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
However, I think someone is lying, but who?

I think Kiya could be the Syrian wife of Akenaton, and that would make the reconstruction of the supposed "Nefretiti" a correct version of a Syrian woman. But Kiya could NEVER be the daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiya, or Akenaton's sister. IMPOSSIBLE.

So that means that the DNA for Kiya ( The Younger Lady) has been misidentified, or fudged.

Why would Zahi Hawass want to do that? Because the Younger Lady is clearly the only Near Easterner in the bunch.. and all the rest of the Armana's are sporting Jackson 5 nostrils. LOL
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Some people wont accept the recreations of white Egyptians but are quite happy to accept Cheddar Man recreation. Whats the difference? Both were done with 3D imaging.

I also think the scientists doing the recreating of ancient Egyptians (which have all been Caucasians) know a lot more about their subject. King Tut is probably the most researched ancient mummy ever. Im also sure they know what Haplogroups he carried. They just havent been published yet. Hopefully the Amarna Dynasty results will come out soon. Whats the bet they're probably Middle Eastern in origin just like the majority of the other mummies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

---

^^^ The stylized proportions are not realistic for human. Note the chin and neck, not believable



similarly, the head is much too narrow to be a realistic human

___________________________

The sculptures below are in realistic human proportion



Akhenaten with blue crown, Egyptian National Museum in Cairo






Bust of Akhenaten,Stucco/gypsum, Museum of Berlin



Akhenaten, detail ~ Kestner Museum ~ Hannover.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
They carry MTDNA N which originated in East Africa or Asia. They carry a sub-clave of N not found anywhere else in the world because of long isolation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
READ VERY SLOWLY

The Egyptian authorities DO NOT allow private DNA companies to take DNA from their mummies. All the above private companies took NO DNA from ancient Egyptian mummies and their results are NOT found on any respected scientific papers

---

quote:

---

Q8: Note 8: Test of Population Continuity: the analysis here was not described. Other than collapsing mtDNA lineages into haplogroup frequencies to compare ancient and contemporary groups, there is no description of what the actual test was. Even if the method was described in Brandt et al. (2013) [not even in the main text, only in their supplement], the authors should lay out the assumptions, parameter choices and models invoked in using this method. Why for example, is TPC preferable over Approximate Bayesian Computation models typically used to test the relative liklihood of two different population demographies (in this case continuity w/ minimal drift vs. migration).

Answer: We have extended the description of our analysis both in the methods part of the manuscript and our supplementary information for clarification and to explain our main findings. Our intention to use the TPC as applied in Brandt et al. 2013 was to evaluate with a simple method whether we can assume genetic continuity (null hypothesis) between our ancient groups and modern-day populations. We agree that complex ABC models would have been the ideal choice to explore alternative scenarios that could explain discontinuity under varying parameters (drift, migration, time, etc.), but were not deemed necessary given that we can more reliably estimate the origin and timing of admixture with nuclear data.

---

quote:

---

The results of the TPC show that the transition from hunter-gatherers to the LBK farmers cannot be explained by genetic drift alone (p=0.000001) (Fig. 2D), consistent with previous findings (10–11).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=4039305_nihms584043f2.jpg

---

—Brandt et al. 2013
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 



Art changed drastically during this period, it is evident that the court officially emulated the king's well known unusual physical characteristics - the court sculptors were instructed to represent what they saw. The result is a realism that breaks away from the rigid formality and stylisation of earlier official depictions.


Come on @lioness, this is the internet age, read don't just state your opinions.
That is the distinct Armana style. What you posted was ancient Photoshop.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 








Akenaton




Neferti
 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
And some people don’t want to accept the original creations by Ancient Egyptians themselves, so they recreat a delusion/ illusion and completely false narratives.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
However, I think someone is lying, but who?

I think Kiya could be the Syrian wife of Akenaton, and that would make the reconstruction of the supposed "Nefretiti" a correct version of a Syrian woman. But Kiya could NEVER be the daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiya, or Akenaton's sister. IMPOSSIBLE.

So that means that the DNA for Kiya ( The Younger Lady) has been misidentified, or fudged.

Why would Zahi Hawass want to do that? Because the Younger Lady is clearly the only Near Easterner in the bunch.. and all the rest of the Armana's are sporting Jackson 5 nostrils. LOL

---

The YL mummy is Akenaton's sister. Who it is we don't know. Obviously the people who did the recreation think its Nefertiti.
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Maybe the Skull they have is NOT Nefertiti, it might Kiya... Is Kiya the daughter of Amenhotep III, I doubt it, but Nefertiti looks just like her brother AkenAten, they are the children of Amenhotep III the resemblance of siblings is there, in the statues and Armana depictions.



Youthful Nefertiti

Amarna, house P.47.2
Reign of Akhenaten, 1353 - 1336 B.C.
Quartzite; h. 30 cm, w. 14.8 cm, d. 18 cm
Agyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung, Berlin



Nefertiti, whose name means "The beautiful one is come," was Akhenaten's principal wife.






Older Nefertiti
Amarna, house P.47.3
Reign of Akhenaten, 1353 - 1336 B.C.
Granodiorite; h. 25 cm, w. 16.5 cm, d. 16 cm
Agyptisches Museum und Papyrussammlung, Berlin


sculptor's model of Nefertiti, with a worshiper on reverse
Amarna, near the Great Temple
Reign of Akhenaten,
1353 - 1336 B.C.
Limestone;
h. 27 cm, w. 16.5 cm, d. 4 cm
Egyptian Museum, Cairo


 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
@Lisa
Unless you beleive Kiye is Akhenantens sister, then the skull they used for the reconstruction is not Kiye. That skull is of a mummy tested and confirmed to be Akhenantens blood Sister, Younger Lady.

Things like Soft tissue distribution, and skin color are determined at the Artists discretion. Another sculptor or forensics team can use the same exact skull and create a face that'll look substantially different. from Nadia Hilker to Fatoumata Diawara, with Tracie Ellis Ross in between.(I wouldn't be Mad with a similar depiction to any of the three tbh...)
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
@elmaestro

I will raise your Diawara & Ross with one Adu


 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
@Yatunde Lisa

!!! Wonderful sculptures collection.
I'm downloading in mhtml to save em all.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
The folks who used the younger ladies skull are probably following folks like Joanne Fletcher who claimed that the mummy was Nefertiti.

But that isn't the important piece.

The important piece is that many claimed at one point Nefertiti herself was Syrian or "foreign" based on that one so-called bust which most agree was fake. Especially when you consider all the other "amarna style" art from the period which look NOTHING like that. Then you got Amenhotep III and Tiye who are so blatantly black African that the only way they could come up with a justification for a white Nefertiti is by inserting some kind of foreign ancestry into the Amerna family somehow. Maybe some Syrian harem girl or some other foreign harem girl had a baby with Akhenaton. Or maybe Amenhotep III had babies with some foreign Harem girl who made it into the royalty of Amarna. All of these are the theories that some folks obsess over in order to justify such images of nefertiti. But at the end of the day this proves even they acknowledge that white skin like that was not common to Egypt at the time which is why they are talking up foreign ancestry so much. And this goes across most dynasties. This is why they are so obsessed with talking up "foreign" features in certain mummies.

And the reconstruction just shows clearly when they think of Egyptians they mean white, not mixed or brown at all.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


^^^ se this? It is phyically impossible for a human being to have a face this narrow

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:


Art changed drastically during this period, it is evident that the court officially emulated the king's well known unusual physical characteristics - the court sculptors were instructed to represent what they saw. The result is a realism that breaks away from the rigid formality and stylisation of earlier official depictions.

---

^^^ see this? if you show a photo of the exact same sculpture from a different angle the proportions of the actual sculpture remain the same, regardless of the photo angle



Amenhotep IV ( who later changed his name to Akhenaten) Louvre Museum



Amenhotep IV ( who later changed his name to Akhenaten) Louvre Museum (front view of previous)

^^ this one has realistic human proportions and seemingly the king at a younger age

The two different sculptures above of Akenhaten are both beautiful in my opinion but I finds the top one more interesting due to the distortion



Limestone head of Akhenaten



Tutankhamun




Nefertiti
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
But, it is more naturalistic the way Akenaton wanted so I go with the naturalistic as more resembling how he looked. For me, and this is just personal eyeballing, I don't think the mummy looks like Nefertiti the cheekbones and bridge of nose is different however, the reconstruction does resemble the mummy, without despite the skin color and eye color choice which is dubious at best.

Now do real humans have long faces? Of course

some Fulani men do








check the previous images I posted, the Armana's are very Nubian influenced, Akenaton is wearing Nubian earring and Nefertiti wears Nubian styled wigs.

But in the more regulated early style you don't see that... Akenaton is representing in the Armana style delivering a 3k year postcard with a message it is up to you whether you want to see it or not.
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

“The Younger Lady”

But, the hype over the empty tomb was nothing compared with the Nefertiti-mania that swept the media in 2003.

University of York archaeologist Joann Fletcher studied three mummies that had been found in the tomb of Pharaoh Amenhotep II. Fletcher announced that one of the bodies, nicknamed “the Younger Lady,” was, in fact, the mummy of Queen Nefertiti.

Her conclusion—which became the basis for a TV documentary, a book, a 60 Minutes report and numerous newspaper and magazine articles—was based, in part, on a wig found near the mummy. It was, Fletcher said, a Nubian hairstyle worn only by royalty during the period when Nefertiti reigned. And, Fletcher also discovered that one ear was double-pierced—a rare practice that was also attributed to Nefertiti.

Most Egyptologists, however, found Fletcher’s evidence superficial and unconvincing.

Barbara Mertz, an American Egyptologist and author (who died in 2013), wrote a letter in an academic journal stating that “the discussions will surely continue to rage, but there can be no doubt in the mind of any Egyptologist or educated Egyptology buff that the identification of the mummy in question as Nefertiti is balderdash (good manners prevent me from using a stronger term)."

The Younger Lady would make a return appearance in 2010.


A National Geographic article written by Zahi Hawass—then Egypt’s Minister of State for Antiquities Affairs—announced the results of DNA analyses of the three mummies. The Younger Lady, he said, was one of the sisters of King Tut’s father, the Pharaoh Akhenaten, and was Tutankhamun's mother.

But in 2013, French Egyptologist Marc Gabolde challenged that conclusion. Closer examination of the DNA evidence, he says, revealed that Nefertiti was both the Younger Lady and King Tut’s true mother.

---

quote:

---

But all experts arent sold.

The University of Chicago is home to The Oriental Institute, a world-renowned showcase for the history, art, and archaeology of the ancient Near East. The museum displays objects recovered by Oriental Institute excavations in permanent galleries devoted to ancient Egypt, Nubia, Persia, Mesopotamia, Syria, Anatolia and the ancient site of Megiddo, as well as rotating special exhibits.

Raymond Johnson, director of the Epigraphic Survey project and Research Associate and Associate Professor at the University of Chicago in the Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations Department, weighed in with great detail about the recent discovery and what they may mean to our understanding of King Tut's family:

"Regarding the forensic facial reconstruction of the mummy of the 'younger lady' announced this week, there are several issues worth discussion. The head in question is a beautiful job of forensic reconstruction by Elisabeth Daynes, and the artist has done science a great service. The mummy of ‘the younger lady’ has evoked a lot of speculation since it was found in 1898 in a side chamber of Amenhotep II’s royal tomb (KV 35) in the Valley of the Kings with two other despoiled mummies, and a cachette of nine reburied kings in the main burial chamber (Thutmosis IV, Amenhotep III, Merenptah, Sety II, Siptah, Sethnakht, and Ramesses IV, V, and VI). The second female mummy found in the side chamber, referred to as ‘the elder lady,’ has been identified as the mummy of Queen Tiye, great royal wife of Amenhotep III, based on a matching lock of her hair found in Tutankhamun’s tomb and recent DNA analysis. A third mummy found in the chamber, of a young prince with a sidelock, might be Akhenaten’s older brother Thutmosis, who predeceased Akhenaten. The ‘younger lady’ is the mummy that Joanne Fletcher years ago identified as Nefertiti, an idea that Zahi Hawass vigorously refuted. Zahi's DNA testing of the royal mummies a few years ago, including the 'younger' and 'older' ladies, indicated that the mummy of the ‘younger lady’ was Tutankhamun's mother, and to everyone’s surprise that she is also a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye.

If one accepts that the mummy of the 'younger lady' is the mother of Tutankhamun, then she cannot be Nefertiti. In no text is Nefertiti ever identified as a royal daughter. If she had been a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, it would have been clearly stated in her inscriptions, and there are hundreds of texts that survive mentioning Nefertiti with no mention of her parents. It has been suggested that she was a daughter of Ay, one of Akhenaten and Tutankhamun's high court officials, a military man who took the crown after Tutankhamun’s early death. Ay's title, Gods Father, could refer to his relationship to Nefertiti, who as queen could never claim a non-royal as her father. If the genetic analysis is correct and the mummy of the ‘younger lady’ is the mother of Tutankhamun and a daughter of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye, then this mummy cannot be Nefertiti.

Numerous sculptures and reliefs survive of Nefertiti, who ruled as queen and then as king with her husband, including many portraits from the end of the Amarna Period when the art style favoured a naturalism that borders on true portraiture. There are elements common to all of these later representations of Nefertiti: a straight nose, heavy-lidded eyes, long graceful neck, and a strong square jaw. The forensically reconstructed face with its narrow skull, deep-set eyes, and triangular jaw is beautiful but in no way resembles the portraits that survive of Nefertiti. That said, they could be relatives. One must remember that Queen Tiye and Ay were siblings; if Nefertiti’s father was indeed Ay, she and the younger lady would have been cousins.

Finally there is the issue of race and skin tone of the reconstructed
princess. From the beginning of human history Egypt was the gateway out of
the African continent, but was also the main route back in. The population of
Egypt was always a mix of European and African races, and the Egyptian court
and royal harem reflected this. Amenhotep III’s many wives included foreign wives from countries all around Egypt and the Mediterranean, including Caucasians, but he was certainly of mixed blood, as was Queen Tiye. We can never know for sure what the skin color of this princess might have been, but as the child of Amenhotep III and Tiye, she was undoubtedly not pure Caucasian. A brown skin color would have probably been more true to the individual represented, and to her times.

That said, it is moving to see the features of this remarkable woman whose identity has been debated ever since her discovery in 1898. Whoever she was, and in my opinion her name is still in question, she was a major player in the Amarna Period. As Tutankhamun scholar Marianne Eaton-Krauss has noted, Tutankhamun never mentioned his mother in any inscription because she was deceased before he took the throne. We know the names of Amenhotep III’s chief daughters: Sitamun, Nebetah, Isis, Hennutaneb, Baketaten, and we know that there were many more. Perhaps in time we will be able to restore one of those name to this body, whose face has been so vividly and beautifully recreated here."

---

quote:

---

History of the Oriental Institute Museum

The Oriental Institute was founded in 1919 by James Henry Breasted with the financial support of John D. Rockefeller Jr., and was originally envisaged as a research laboratory for the investigation of the early human career that would trace humankind’s progress from the most ancient days of the Middle East. The goal of the Oriental Institute is to be the world’s leading center for the study of ancient Near Eastern civilizations by combining innovation in theory, methodology, and significant empirical discovery with the highest standards of rigorous scholarship.

The Oriental Institute Museum was opened to the public in 1931. The majority of the collections of the Oriental Institute came from its expeditions in the Middle East during the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s. A major reinstallation of the Museum, including the construction of a climate-controlled wing for housing collections and archives, took place in the 1990s and early 2000s. The Voting Members of the Oriental Institute, who meet quarterly and approve changes to the Mission Statement of the Oriental Institute Museum. The Oriental Institute is a unit within the University of Chicago and the name of the corporation is “The University of Chicago.” The corporation was originally incorporated on September 10, 1890. The corporation has not changed its name since its original date of incorporation.

---

quote:

---

In 1926, the United States' first Egyptologist James Henry Breasted and the philanthropist John D. Rockefeller Jr., proposed to build a New Egyptian Museum and Research Institute in Cairo. The Egyptian government ultimately rejected the proposal and the museum was never built as suggested. The project's failure was attributed to "suspicious" or "irrational" nationalism and "Egyptian vanity." The archives, however, demonstrate otherwise. This thesis analyzes the Breasted-Rockefeller museum's conception, trajectory and failure, using the team's lengthy correspondence. The archives show that the project was an early example of U.S. cultural imperialism, disguised as a gift of "Science," from the "Great Democracy of the West," to an Egypt desirous of independence from British and French empires. Deploying the twin themes of post World War I "opportunity" (political) and "obligation" (civilizational, scientific, philanthropic) to demonstrate the imperial possibilities of the particular political and cultural moment in 1926, Breasted mobilized Rockefeller first and the U.S. State Department later, to pry open the political field in Egypt for U.S. entry through archaeology and appropriation of antiquity. The Breasted-Rockefeller team's strategy was to create an Anglo- American alliance in the Near East, by beginning with the creation of a private-philanthropic corporation for the New Egyptian Museum, controlled by Western archaeologists, with token Egyptian representation. This ambitious and innovative approach to imperialism was spatially and architecturally revealed in the proposed museum's design and in its location in Cairo. That this project failed when it would succeed in later iterations elsewhere, is to be ascribed both to the lack of U.S. power against competing British and French imperialisms at this early stage, as well as to Egyptian nationalism, which identified the Breasted-Rockefeller proposal for the imperial project that it was, and which had begun to recognize Egyptian antiquity as a metaphor for nationalism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
But, it is more naturalistic the way Akenaton wanted so I go with the naturalistic as more resembling how he looked. For me, and this is just personal eyeballing, I don't think the mummy looks like Nefertiti the cheekbones and bridge of nose is different however, the reconstruction does resemble the mummy, without despite the skin color and eye color choice which is dubious at best.

Now do real humans have long faces? Of course

some Fulani men do

<removed images>


check the previous images I posted, the Armana's are very Nubian influenced, Akenaton is wearing Nubian earring and Nefertiti wears Nubian styled wigs.

But in the more regulated early style you don't see that... Akenaton is representing in the Armana style delivering a 3k year postcard with a message it is up to you whether you want to see it or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

As for the so-called Nefertiti bust, the only reason it is famous is because it is on display in Germany and is OWNED by Germans. It is the ONLY bust of Nefertiti that looks like that. Most images of Nefertiti do NOT look like that but this is what Europeans want to see and this is why this is the ONLY image of Nefertiti you see in books and magazines.

Not to mention the circumstances surrounding the discovery of the bust are controversial and shady at best. And to this day, Germany refuses to return it to Egypt (because it is fake like many tourist artwork seen in Egypt).

https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/59109 [/QB]

---

So Germany won't return the bust because the Minister of Antiquities in Egypt will reveal the bust to be fake?
I don't thinks so. Germany has not only that bust but several others of Nefertiti and that unique full color painted one attracts millions of tourist dollars



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
plaster busts are like realistic base models in the studio of court sculptors like Thutmose (not to be confused with Thutmose the king of the same name). Similarly what are called "reserve heads" .
After they record the basic likeness when they start making permanent sculptures in stone they exaggerate and idealize
 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
for Doug being on the same continent inevitably draws you into a mystic cultural union that cannot be hindered by wastelands or deserts

mere physical proximity to Asia, connections by land and sea, cannot overcome the ultimate power of arbitrary geographic boundaries

---

No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

Otherwise, if what you are saying is true, then everybody was everywhere regardless of geography because humans can move anywhere and have done so over time. So Europe is mixed, Asia is mixed and everybody is mixed. So lets be consistent.

The Levant is mixed then. Arabia is mixed then. The Mediterranean is mixed then, etc. But we know some folks want to only apply this rule to certain parts of Africa for obvious reasons.

And again, as far as Nefertiti goes nobody who claims that this bust is an accurate portrait of Nefertiti including skin tone, says this is "indigenous" to the Nile Valley. So obviously such features aren't African. The question is whether or not this is true. Either Nefertiti was an indigenous Egyptian from the Nile Valley and therefore not light skinned like that bust or she was indigenous and the bust is possibly a fraud or altered. Most artwork featuring Nefertiti looks blatantly African with big lips and other features not like the Berlin bust. But conveniently most of those images are downplayed compared to the Berlin bust.

The fact is these are what most of the images of Nefertiti looked like in Egypt (and sure this isn't 100% realistic) but the point is you have two very different versions of Nefertiti. One looking blatantly African and the other looking more "non African".




https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_of_Queen_Nefertiti_MET_47.57.1_EGDP020948.jpg

So the question becomes which is accurate? Why display a foreigner with African features if she wasn't African at all?

And no "Afrocentrists" didn't create this artwork. So this is simply calling out the obvious.

As a matter of fact, even from the artists workshop that this bust came from there are many other "realistic variations" of Nefertiti. So which is right? No other royal in Egyptian art has so many different depictions that are so drastically different. Most other depictions of Egyptian royals are so consistent that even without any name on it you can tell who it is. This is the only case in Egyptian art where you have such drastically different depictions of the same person.

And ultimately the issue is that Europeans will obviously be attracted to the Berlin bust because it looks like them. While the African looking images of Nefertiti will be held up by Africans as proof she was African. This isn't rocket science. Of course there was only person named Nefertiti and until we find and positively identify her remains we may never know ultimately her origins.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG/470px-Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG

A collection of these is here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Statue_heads_of_Nefertiti


Other art from Amarna which is highly realistic:

https://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/26.7.1396/
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

---

quote:

---

So Europe is mixed, Asia is mixed and everybody is mixed. So lets be consistent.

---

everybody *is* mixed.
 

---

Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
 
Honestly, I think the Berlin bust is simply faded. It's pretty obvious that the other painted areas of the sculpture (e.g. the crown) are discolored, so why wouldn't the skin be discolored as well? Plus, there are other images of Nefertiti with traces of dark paint still attached.






Furthermore, the orange-ish complexion that people assume the Berlin bust has isn't even typical for AE art. Usually, female Egyptian subjects are painted either yellow (as in Old and Middle Kingdom art) or a shade of mahogany brown similar to their male counterparts (e.g. some New Kingdom art). I haven't seen too many AE portrayals of women that had a naturally pale orange look. So if the Berlin bust was supposed to depict a pale orange complexion in life, it would be unusual in that respect.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

---

West Asians are more closely related to Europeans than they are to East Asians.

from Cairo, Meroe is as far away as Hattusa; from Luxor, Kerma is as far away as Jerusalem; from Qena, Khartoum is as far away as Baghdad; from the Delta, Eritrea is as far away as Russia (all these by road).

quote:

---

So Europe is mixed, Asia is mixed and everybody is mixed. So lets be consistent.

---

everybody *is* mixed.

---

All these by road? I have no idea about Russia and Baghdad, but places like Cairo, the Delta, Eritrea, Luxor, Kerma, Meroe etc are hard to navigate. Even by modern day standards, by road.
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
yes of course, i'm just using google maps here for purposes of illustration, not a detailed simulation of routes used when donkeys were a new-fangled invention. and you ain't kidding, google maps says *100 hours* to Khartoum and 36 hours to Tbilisi. i didn't realize it was *that* bad.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Oh okay, and that is of course when conditions are "perfect". The extreme cold during the night and evening slows down, the extreme heat during the day slows down. The sometimes difficult accessible mountain regions slow down and the desert will slow down.

But yeah, donkeys were a new-fangled invention.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
the point is you have two very different versions of Nefertiti. One looking blatantly African and the other looking more "non African".





(enlargement detail of previous)


https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Relief_of_Queen_Nefertiti_MET_47.57.1_EGDP020948.jpg

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

So the question becomes which is accurate? Why display a foreigner with African features if she wasn't African at all?

---

Because there is a wide diversity of features in Africa

and in addition not everything is one or the other. Something could be half of one half of the other




^^ this person is half European

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

No other royal in Egyptian art has so many different depictions that are so drastically different.

---

what you are saying is not true. Try going back over all the Akhenaten art in this thread.

Then move on to Ramses II


Rameses II



Ramses II


Ramses II

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

Most other depictions of Egyptian royals are so consistent that even without any name on it you can tell who it is. This is the only case in Egyptian art where you have such drastically different depictions of the same person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

And ultimately the issue is that Europeans will obviously be attracted to the Berlin bust because it looks like them. While the African looking images of Nefertiti will be held up by Africans as proof she was African. This isn't rocket science. Of course there was only person named Nefertiti and until we find and positively identify her remains we may never know ultimately her origins.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/68/Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG/470px-Nefertiti_Berl%C3%ADn_07.JPG

---

^^^ what you have here is another unfinished piece from the museum in Berlin. They have several and including Akhenaten and Tutankhamun.
This is Nefertiti. Below the exact same Nefertiti piece in side view next to the famous one. You will notice the same black marks behind the cheek and thin line across the neck >>



 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

3 sculptures of Nefertiti

Here we have three sculptures of Nefertiti.
Each has similarities and differences.

One thing about "blatantly African" lips is that nor only are they fuller but the width of the whole mouth is wider from side to side on the face. Nevertheless one cannot say lips not like that are necessarily less African. They just have less crossover in appearance to Europeans. Europeans are derived from a particular type of African from the North East Africa some scientists call the Basal Eurasian. However perhaps there was more than one type of basal Eurasian
As I have shown in my previous post the sculpture at left is highly similar to the famous bust in the middle in the side view profile. Here is also similar but the one on the left has fuller lips and a wider mouth.
The sculpture on the right looks younger as compared to the famous middle one. The mouth is very slightly not as wide side to side as the middle bust and ears largest of the three and chin slightly narrower.
All are similar. I feel like the left one is more similar overall to the middle one and looks like a person of the same age, maybe 30s to 40s. The one at right looks like a person in their 20s, my opinion
 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
If I was casting Nefertiti with Americans I'd go with her...


She is a little pale though so even I would white wash a tad.

Its that heart shape face


The late Lee Thompson had an Armanaish look to him too.
 

---

Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
 
Graph on population divergences within African populations, as well as their varying affinities with non-Africans

Note that even West and Central Africans are less divergent from OOA populations than the Khoisan peoples of South Africa. And East Africans are closer still to OOA.

It's been pointed out ad nauseum here for over half a decade, but Team Afrocentric needs to get away from this obsolete notion that African populations can all be genetically grouped into a singular, exclusive "race" or cluster. Even if you limit your scope to SSA, you'll find certain Africans are genetically closer (i.e. less divergent) to OOA than others.

And if you think about it, that shouldn't be a problem for us. It doesn't mean that the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa would be less African than Khoisan or West Africans. They'd still be native to the continent, and therefore they'd still appear (phenotypically) "black" to modern casual observers. It's not like their ancestors would have magically turned into Arabs the moment they stepped foot into the Sahara. Hell, if Cheddar Man and other prehistoric Eurasians have shown us anything in the last few years, it's that modern humans didn't even turn pale the moment they crossed the Sinai into Eurasia.

You people really are too attached to racialized thinking here.
 

---

Posted by Tyrannohotep (Member # 3735) on :
 
That said, the common refrain that "AE would have been closer genetically/culturally to Middle Easterners than to SSA" seems to be often used in a specious manner in my observation. The genetic argument may not be technically wrong when you consider population substructure in Africa, but look at the graph I posted earlier. Again, you'll find that even West/Central Africans are closer genetically (as in less divergent) to OOAs than are Khoisan. Yeah they're both commonly lumped together as "sub-Saharan Africans" in popular discourse. It should go to show you that "SSA" itself isn't a singular population cluster, let alone a single cultural grouping.

Furthermore, it's no secret that Africa is a vast continent. For example, Zululand is as far away from Nigeria as California is from New England. Again, that hasn't stopped anyone from lumping Nigerian and South African cultures into a shared "sub-Saharan" category.

The True Size of Africa

Not that I'm necessarily arguing that SSA isn't a useful label at all. It's not my favorite phrase personally, since its usage has often gone hand in hand with the assumption that only SSA are authentically African whereas North Africans have always been transplants from Eurasia. However, when I see posters like beyoku or Swenet use the label, I presume they're using it as a familiar catch-all for African ancestry that's not North African. And you do need such catch-alls when you're comparing and contrasting one specific region of a continent with all the others. Besides, I'm damn tired of bickering over nomenclature.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 
Must see,

A Convicted Forger Calls Nefertiti's Bust a Fake

https://youtu.be/Cckwn7jN3Ms

—Smithsonian Channel
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
Your example falls within the range of an Afro-American look. But you ignored the example I provided of the North Africans with brown complexion and curly hair who are unmistakenly NOT AA. Like the Lioness pointed out, how black is viewed in American society is based on several physical traits, not just one as you imply.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:
This is the black situation, especially with Saharan Africa.


A man is treated as black and subject to some of the cruelest experiences ever recorded, but he looks like this:

http://hw-static.worldstarhiphop.com/u/pic/2016/05/Fx7HjPrg3tPc.jpg

Sees people that there were Africans that built pyramids that look like this:

http://scontent-a.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/10246206_242932122582287_1008794400_n.jpg

http://scontent-b.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xfa1/t51.2885-15/10570013_772641219452872_1146525628_n.jpg

But is told that blacks are only blacks if they look like this:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/y7kjtNhleTE/hqdefault.jpg

---

---

Most people in the West will confuse the average Berber for being biracially mixed black. Or Afro-Latin. But there are certainly African Americans with this look.













In contrast and comparison:





 

---

Posted by tropicals redacted (Member # 21621) on :
 
@capra

quote:

---

for Doug being on the same continent inevitably draws you into a mystic cultural union that cannot be hindered by wastelands or deserts

mere physical proximity to Asia, connections by land and sea, cannot overcome the ultimate power of arbitrary geographic boundaries

---

quote:

---

from Cairo, Meroe is as far away as Hattusa; from Luxor, Kerma is as far away as Jerusalem; from Qena, Khartoum is as far away as Baghdad; from the Delta, Eritrea is as far away as Russia (all these by road).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
Physical anthropological studies show that ancient Egyptians show greater similarities with other Africans in North-East Africa than with populations in the Near East/Middle East(or Russia).

The cultural basis was also African. An obvious example being headrests which you don't get in the other regions you cited.

---

point is that Egypt is not more geographically connected to other relevant bits of Africa than to Asia merely because it is on the same arbitrarily-defined continent. not to dismiss actual evidence of relationships.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
The point still stands that people will see whatever image in their minds of Nefertiti from the various works of art that depict her. And this isn't just about Nefertiti it is about ALL AE populations. Africans (not Afrocentrics) will see Africans in the AE art and culture (Africans across Africa to this day still do). Europeans will pick those images and data that supports their claim that the AE were "European" somehow as if Syrian or Babylonian migrants 5,000 years ago equals European.

Make no mistake. Europeans who colonized Egypt and stole the artifacts were mostly racists and eugenicists and to this day have wanted and still want to use Egypt to justify their global conquest and domination. In their minds the AE had to be white in order to prove white supremacy. This isn't about facts. It is about race pride for the Europeans. But of course they will try and turn around and claim Africans are the racists.

In the minds of many Europeans this is Nefertiti:

quote:

---

The film follows the theory that Nefertiti was a princess of the Mitanni, sent to marry Pharaoh Amenhotep III, then taken by Akhenaten as his wife. The plot is based on the desire for an archaeologist to find a means revive himself several millennia after his death.[2]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tyrannohotep:


It's been pointed out ad nauseum here for over half a decade, but Team Afrocentric needs to get away from this obsolete notion that African populations can all be genetically grouped into a singular, exclusive "race" or cluster. Even if you limit your scope to SSA, you'll find certain Africans are genetically closer (i.e. less divergent) to OOA than others.

And if you think about it, that shouldn't be a problem for us. It doesn't mean that the aboriginal inhabitants of North Africa would be less African than Khoisan or West Africans. They'd still be native to the continent, and therefore they'd still appear (phenotypically) "black" to modern casual observers. It's not like their ancestors would have magically turned into Arabs the moment they stepped foot into the Sahara. Hell, if Cheddar Man and other prehistoric Eurasians have shown us anything in the last few years, it's that modern humans didn't even turn pale the moment they crossed the Sinai into Eurasia.

You people really are too attached to racialized thinking here.

---

It's because most Africans are mixed with these different genetic races of Africans. I get you though. I tell people all the time that race is enforced opinion. A goofier or nicer breed of humans would have him mark 'uni' for race.



And he would be a 'fro'

 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

---

West Asians are more closely related to Europeans than they are to East Asians.

from Cairo, Meroe is as far away as Hattusa; from Luxor, Kerma is as far away as Jerusalem; from Qena, Khartoum is as far away as Baghdad; from the Delta, Eritrea is as far away as Russia (all these by road).

quote:

---

So Europe is mixed, Asia is mixed and everybody is mixed. So lets be consistent.

---

everybody *is* mixed.

---

quote:

---

DougM
No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

---

quote:

---

point is that Egypt is not more geographically connected to other relevant bits of Africa than to Asia merely because it is on the same arbitrarily-defined continent. not to dismiss actual evidence of relationships.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tropicals redacted:
@capra

quote:

---

DougM
No being on the same continent brings you into a physical union with other people from the same continent. And we should assume this is the case before imposing or assuming closer relations with populations farther away via travel. This isn't abnormal. Asians are asians because they exist in Asia the landmass with other Asians. Europeans are Europeans because they exist in Europe the landmass with other Europeans. Africans are Africans because they exist in the African landmass with other Africans.

---

I think Doug erred in his reasoning here, but he's ultimately correct in his assertion of Egypt as African.

---

quote:

---

i don't know anything about headrests, but i am perfectly willing to believe you. i don't mean to deny cultural connections with Sub-Saharan Africa, on the contrary i think they are very interesting.

---

quote:

---

but Egypt obviously also has plenty of cultural elements shared with the Near East, it is not like they are mutually exclusive.

---

quote:

---

getting way off topic but the question of biological affinity to other Northeast Africans: supposing for the sake of argument that Egyptians derive from back-migration from West Eurasia, why shouldn't we expect neighbouring parts of Africa have this ancestry as well, and moreoever coming from the particular branch represented in Egypt? it is only an assumption that such affinity must represent 'native' African ancestry.

---

Why would you want to suppose for the sake of argument? Is there anything in the mainstream literature that supports this idea? When do you suppose such a back migration occurred?
 

---

Posted by capra (Member # 22737) on :
 
look, i don't have either the time or the interest to discuss this right now. for the sake of argument is a hypothetical, to think about a possibility. if you know some evidence that rules out that possibility, great.
 

---

Posted by tropicals redacted (Member # 21621) on :
 
It's a hypothetical/possibility that nobody entertains. Certainly not in any paper I've come across.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by capra:
@ Doug

claiming that Egyptians are from Africa therefore they are what Doug thinks of as African, which excludes ancient back-migrants from Eurasia, is nonsense. Africans are whatever they are, you cannot define North Africans out of existence (whether they actually are ancient back-migrants or not, that is an obvious plausible explanation requiring no Eurocentricity).

---

quote:

---

"Indeed, the rare and incomplete Paleolithic to early Neolithic skeletal specimens found in Egypt—such as the 33,000-year-old Nazlet Khater specimen (Pinhasi and Semal 2000), the Wadi Kubbaniya skeleton from the late Paleolithic site in the upper Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 1986), the Qarunian (Faiyum) early Neolithic crania (Henneberg et al. 1989; Midant-Reynes 2000), and the Nabta specimen from the Neolithic Nabta Playa site in the western desert of Egypt (Henneberg et al. 1980)—show, with regard to the great African biological diversity, similarities with some of the sub-Saharan middle Paleolithic and modern sub-Saharan specimens. This affinity pattern between ancient Egyptians and sub-Saharans has also been noticed by several other investigators (Angel 1972; Berry and Berry 1967, 1972; Keita 1995) and has been recently reinforced by the study of Brace et al. (2005), which clearly shows that the cranial morphology of prehistoric and recent northeast African populations is linked to sub-Saharan populations (Niger-Congo populations). These results support the hypothesis that some of the Paleolithic–early Holocene populations from northeast Africa were probably descendents of sub-Saharan ancestral populations."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tropicals redacted:

quote:

---

i don't know anything about headrests, but i am perfectly willing to believe you. i don't mean to deny cultural connections with Sub-Saharan Africa, on the contrary i think they are very interesting.

---

Don’t take my word for it with the headrests:
http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/gallery/headrests//index.html

quote:

---

but Egypt obviously also has plenty of cultural elements shared with the Near East, it is not like they are mutually exclusive.

---

The cultural basis was African:
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/cultural-convergence-in-the-neolithic-of-the-nile-valley-a-prehistoric-perspective-on-egypts-place-in-africa/198005B5D23B6 44951E17B3F0803AF74

quote:

---

getting way off topic but the question of biological affinity to other Northeast Africans: supposing for the sake of argument that Egyptians derive from back-migration from West Eurasia, why shouldn't we expect neighbouring parts of Africa have this ancestry as well, and moreoever coming from the particular branch represented in Egypt? it is only an assumption that such affinity must represent 'native' African ancestry.

---

Why would you want to suppose for the sake of argument? Is there anything in the mainstream literature that supports this idea? When do you suppose such a back migration occurred?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:
They keep pushing the origins of Lower Egyptians who the archeological record pointed had a relationship to the Levant during the predynastic. It's not a coincidence that all this genetic data you're getting is Lower Egyptian, or from some part of Egypt that received immigration from foreigners. If the data from southern Egyptians and Sudanese that you have thus far isn't matching this study, what then does that likely suggest about Egypt?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
There is no location on earth that is or was immune from immigration. That is the point. The same geography that allows you to claim that Egypt was subject to "backmigration" is the same geography that makes the Levant and Europe subject to African migration as well. Migration is a two way street. Before anybody could back migrate there had to be an initial immigration first.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:
I'm aware Egypt didn't start in the northern part. I'm just saying that the archoelogical record would make more Eurocentrists comfortable with revealing northern DNA. I'm not sure how Lower Egypt's mixture has "nothing to do with" anything. It has everything to do with it. Lower Egypt had 2-3 foreign invasions before any of this research was done and already had a connection to the Levant that extended to the predynastic. If you were a Eurocentric that wanted Egyptians to seem like a Levanite transplant (even before the state), would you use Old Kingdom southern Egyptians with ties with "Nubia" or would you use northern Egyptians after numerous migrations from the middle East?

---

The amount of Levantine admixture has nothing to do with it because every time the invasions were repulsed they were repulsed from the South. After the 1st and 2nd intermediate periods the kingdom was restored from the South. The Kingdom was created from the South and the concepts and cultural influences flowed from the South. So if you want to look at the "roots" of the culture you have to go South. Folks can obsess over Levantine admixture all they want in Lower Egypt. The culture did not originate in and ultimately from Lower Egypt. So focusing on Levantine "roots" is focusing on irrelevant information as that is not the actual location of the origin of AE culture.

As I have called out before, AE culture spilled over into the Levant from a very early period. And at one point AE as a nation had northern borders well within the Levant. So I am not shocked by or in denial of any Levantine mixture or influence in Lower Egypt that does not make the "roots" of AE culture Levantine.

And most hardcore Eurocentrics, including Petrie and others basically will say that those Upper Egyptian "roots" were a result of Eurasian migrants from the Red Sea into Upper Egypt. That has been the traditional argument since the time of Petrie and still persists among many to this day.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
The amount of Levantine admixture has nothing to do with it because every time the invasions were repulsed they were repulsed from the South.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
After the 1st and 2nd intermediate periods the kingdom was restored from the South. The Kingdom was created from the South and the concepts and cultural influences flowed from the South. So if you want to look at the "roots" of the culture you have to go South. Folks can obsess over Levantine admixture all they want in Lower Egypt. The culture did not originate in and ultimately from Lower Egypt. So focusing on Levantine "roots" is focusing on irrelevant information as that is not the actual location of the origin of AE culture.

As I have called out before, AE culture spilled over into the Levant from a very early period. And at one point AE as a nation had northern borders well within the Levant. So I am not shocked by or in denial of any Levantine mixture or influence in Lower Egypt that does not make the "roots" of AE culture Levantine.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
The amount of Levantine admixture has nothing to do with it because every time the invasions were repulsed they were repulsed from the South.

---

After centuries of immigration and foreigners living in Egyptian territory. After thousands of years of Levanite mixed Lower Egyptians being citizens. If you're holding out for Upper Egypt to lack mixture until the Greeks and Romans you're likely to be disappointed. Much of Upper Egypt was probably changing into the Old Kingdom if not before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
After the 1st and 2nd intermediate periods the kingdom was restored from the South. The Kingdom was created from the South and the concepts and cultural influences flowed from the South. So if you want to look at the "roots" of the culture you have to go South. Folks can obsess over Levantine admixture all they want in Lower Egypt. The culture did not originate in and ultimately from Lower Egypt. So focusing on Levantine "roots" is focusing on irrelevant information as that is not the actual location of the origin of AE culture.

As I have called out before, AE culture spilled over into the Levant from a very early period. And at one point AE as a nation had northern borders well within the Levant. So I am not shocked by or in denial of any Levantine mixture or influence in Lower Egypt that does not make the "roots" of AE culture Levantine.

---

True, but that was already acknowledged. The point was that they're going to focus on northern Egyptians because the archeology that preceded the selection of genetic samples deemed them a "safe" bet. They know no matter where in time they go to get samples from Lower Egyptians, they are likely to get some "Levanite" mixture. The Egyptians are not understood by the public as "Lower" and "Upper" Egyptians with uniqueness. They're just Egyptians which is what makes sampling bias an easier sell. Many people want to see the Egyptians like Swedes instead of Americans with lots more diversity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Just about all recreations of ancient Egyptians show Caucasians:

---

quote:

---

There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.

In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas [...]

Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.

In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.

This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography"

---

quote:

---

"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).


These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Just about all recreations of ancient Egyptians show Caucasians:

---

It shows white peoples imaginations. Try to understand the differences.

Physical anthropology tells us something different.

quote:

---

There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.

In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas [...]

Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.

In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.

This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography"

---

--Kathryn A. Bard (STEPHEN E. THOMPSON Egyptians, physical anthropology of Physical anthropology)

https://www.academia.edu/1924147/Kathryn_A._Bard_The_Encyclopedia_of_of_the_Archaeology_of_Ancient_Egypt

quote:

---

"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).


These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment."

---

--Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20569/abstract

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brit333:
A fact certain peoples will not accept, the Copts carry MTDNA U6 which arrived in Egypt 30 000 years ago. This MTDNA is also found in other North African countries.

Copts also carry overwhelmingly Haplogroup J (45%) originating from the Middle Eastern Farmers 9000 - 6000 years ago.
R1B = 15% and is Middle Eastern in origin
E1b1b = 21% North African in origin
B = 15% is an ancient archaic African Haplogroup

https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/the-genetic-structure-of-the-copts-and-muslims-of-egypt-3-the-genetic-structure-of-the-copts-is-distinguishable-from-that-of-the-m uslims-of-egypt/

Muslim Egyptians carry DNA from recent Arab migration and slavery.

---

quote:

---

In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Recently, in a re-sequencing study of the Y chromosome, the root of the tree moved to a new position and several changes at the basal nodes of the phylogeny were introduced [16]. Interestingly, the estimated coalescence age and deep branching pattern of the revised MSY tree appear to be more similar to those of the mtDNA phylogeny [17], [18] than previously reported [1].

[…]


Figure 1. Revised topology of the deepest portion of the human MSY tree.
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/ppreviews-plos-725668748/292707/preview.jpg

---

—Fulvio Cruciani et al
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree 2012




http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0049170

Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
Fulvio Cruciani 2012


All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14], [31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1], [14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).


As we know things, the ancestral to CT is haplogroup BT and the descendants are haplogroup CF and DE.








See, I also looked at wikipedia. And this is what they show:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_BT

That tree of course is not found in any Cruciani et al. study. Since they show this:, but it is still a nice summery:


 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brit333:
A fact certain peoples will not accept, the Copts carry MTDNA U6 which arrived in Egypt 30 000 years ago. This MTDNA is also found in other North African countries.

Copts also carry overwhelmingly Haplogroup J (45%) originating from the Middle Eastern Farmers 9000 - 6000 years ago.
R1B = 15% and is Middle Eastern in origin
E1b1b = 21% North African in origin
B = 15% is an ancient archaic African Haplogroup

https://copticliterature.wordpress.com/2016/09/28/the-genetic-structure-of-the-copts-and-muslims-of-egypt-3-the-genetic-structure-of-the-copts-is-distinguishable-from-that-of-the-m uslims-of-egypt/

Muslim Egyptians carry DNA from recent Arab migration and slavery.

---

quote:

---

An ancient human back migration from Asia to Africa had already been proposed by Altheide and Hammer (1997) and Hammer et al. (1998, 2001), on the basis of nested cladistic analysis of Y-chromosome data. They suggested that the presence of YAP+ chromosomes in Africa was due to such an event, but this has recently been questioned by Underhill et al. (2001b) and Underhill and Roseman (2001), primarily on the basis of the Asian-specific YAP+ subclade that neutralizes the previous phylogenetic inferences. Thus, the only evidence of a migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa that is fully supported by Y-chromosome data relies, at least for the moment, on the finding of haplogroup IX chromosomes in Cameroon.

Group IX Chromosomes in Sub-Saharan Africa: An Asian Origin?

How can the presence of Group IX chromosomes at considerable frequency in Cameroon be explained? A priori, we can envision three possibilities. First, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon are due to rather recent male gene flow from Europe or the Near East. Second, the entire M9 superclade (haplogroups VII–X) has an African origin. Third, group IX chromosomes in Cameroon represent a footprint of a male back migration from Asia to Africa. The first scenario seems to be very unlikely, because only derived haplotypes, carrying the M269 or M17/SRY10831 mutations, have been detected in western Eurasia. The second hypothesis, an African origin of the M9 superclade that includes haplotype 117, would imply a subsequent impressive extinction of derivative lineages in sub-Saharan Africa, since no other haplotypes carrying the M9 mutation (haplogroups VII–X) have been observed in this region (the only exception being represented by a few haplotype 109 chromosomes found in the Fulbe from Cameroon). The last scenario, that of a back migration from Asia to Africa, currently appears to be by far the most plausible. This is because most of the M9 haplotypes (the majority of group VII and VIII lineages, as well as some group IX and X lineages reported by Underhill et al. [2000]) have been observed only in Asia. Moreover, this possibility appears to be further supported by the recent finding of the UTY2+/M173− intermediate haplotype (Karafet et al. 2001) in central and northeastern Asia (the UTY2 marker in the study by Karafet et al. [2001] corresponds to M207 in the present study).

---

quote:

---

In conclusion, we present here a Y chromosome phylogenetic tree deeply revised in its root and earliest branches. Our data do not uphold previous models of Y chromosomal emergence 15, 16 and demand a reevaluation of some fundamental ideas concerning the early history of the human genetic diversity we find today. 38–40 Our phylogeny shows a root in central-northwest Africa. Although this point requires further attention, we think that it offers a new prospect from which to view the initial development of our species in Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brit333:
Ancient Egyptians resembled modern Egyptians. The Middle Eastern Farmers migrated into Egypt about 9000 - 6000 years ago. They replaced the earlier Egyptians (Cro-Magnon descendants) and started farming in Egypt. Farming leads to civilization. Many small towns appear all over Egypt, the largest and most powerful being Hierakonpolis which eventually takes over the whole of Egypt.

Southern Egypt is a mix of East Africans, Berbers and Middle Eastern Farmers. Gerzean Culture of Southern Egypt was heavily influenced by Mesopotamia. I wonder why so many people ignore the fact that the ancient Sumerians (the first to build pyramids) heavily influenced Egypt?
http://www.recoveredscience.com/const128mesopotamianinfluences.htm

---

quote:

---

"Ancient Egypt belongs to a language
group known as 'Afroasiatic' (formerly
called Hamito-Semitic) and its closest
relatives are other north-east African
languages from Somalia to Chad. Egypt's
cultural features, both material and
ideological and particularly in the earliest
phases, show clear connections with that
same broad area. In sum, ancient Egypt
was an African culture, developed by
African peoples, who had wide ranging
contacts in north Africa and western
Asia."

---

quote:

---

"The ancient Egyptians were not 'white' in any European sense, nor were they 'Caucasian'... we can say that the earliest population of ancient Egypt included African people from the upper Nile, African people from the regions of the Sahara and modern Libya, and smaller numbers of people who had come from south-western Asia and perhaps the Arabian penisula."

---

quote:

---

"Over the last two decades, numerous contemporary (Khartoum Neolithic) sites and cemeteries have been excavated in the Central Sudan.. The most striking point to emerge is the overall similarity of early neolithic developments inhabitation, exchange, material culture and mortuary customs in the Khartoum region to those underway at the same time in the Egyptian Nile Valley, far to the north." (Wengrow, David (2003) "Landscapes of Knowledge, Idioms of Power: The African Foundations of Ancient Egyptian Civilization Reconsidered," in Ancient Egypt in Africa, David O'Connor and Andrew Reid, eds. Ancient Egypt in Africa. London: University College London Press, 2003, pp. 119-137)

---

quote:

---

"When the Elephantine results were added to a broader pooling of the physical characteristics drawn from a wide geographic region which includes Africa, the Mediterranean and the Near East quite strong affinities emerge between Elephantine and populations from Nubia, supporting a strong south-north cline."

---

quote:

---

"The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990) This pattern is supported by Figure 7 (a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations.

---

quote:

---

"Radiocarbon data from 150 archaeological excavations in the now hyper-arid Eastern Sahara of Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and Chad reveal close links between climatic variations and prehistoric occupation during the past 12,000 years. Synoptic multiple-indicator views for major time slices demonstrate the transition from initial settlement after the sudden onset of humid conditions at 8500 B.C.E. to the exodus resulting from gradual desiccation since 5300 B.C.E.

Southward shifting of the desert margin helped trigger the emergence of pharaonic civilisation along the Nile, influenced the spread of pastoralism throughout the continent, and affects sub-Saharan Africa to the present day.

---

quote:

---

There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate that the ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa.

In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas [...]

Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data.

In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation.

This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography"

---

quote:

---

"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or "Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). Cranial nonmetric trait studies have found this group to be similar to other Egyptians, including much later material (Berry and Berry, 1967, 1972), but also to be significantly different from LPD material (Berry et al., 1967). Similarly, the study of dental nonmetric traits has suggested that the Badarian population is at the centroid of Egyptian dental samples (Irish, 2006), thereby suggesting similarity and hence continuity across Egyptian time periods. From the central location of the Badarian samples in Figure 2, the current study finds the Badarian to be relatively morphologically close to the centroid of all the Egyptian samples. The Badarian have been shown to exhibit greatest morphological similarity with the temporally successive EPD (Table 5). Finally, the biological distinctiveness of the Badarian from other Egyptian samples has also been demonstrated (Tables 6 and 7).


These results suggest that the EDyn do form a distinct morphological pattern. Their overlap with other Egyptian samples (in PC space, Fig. 2) suggests that although their morphology is distinctive, the pattern does overlap with the other time periods. These results therefore do not support the Petrie concept of a \Dynastic race" (Petrie, 1939; Derry, 1956). Instead, the results suggest that the Egyptian state was not the product of mass movement of populations into the Egyptian Nile region, but rather that it was the result of primarily indigenous development combined with prolonged small-scale migration, potentially from trade, military, or other contacts.

This evidence suggests that the process of state formation itself may have been mainly an indigenous process, but that it may have occurred in association with in-migration to the Abydos region of the Nile Valley. This potential in-migration may have occurred particularly during the EDyn and OK. A possible explanation is that the Egyptian state formed through increasing control of trade and raw materials, or due to military actions, potentially associated with the use of the Nile Valley as a corridor for prolonged small scale movements through the desert environment."

---

quote:

---

"Thus he concluded that it must take more than 15,000 years for modern humans to fully adapt to a new environment (see also Trinkaus, 1992).

This suggests that body proportions tend not to be very plastic under natural conditions, and that selective rates on body shape are such that evolution in these features is long-term."

---

quote:

---

"It is estimated that these changes in ‘heat adapted’ genes occurred over a time frame of 12,000 to 30,000 years (Young et al. 2005)."

---

quote:

---

Furthermore bi-iliac breadth appears to
change slowly over time, likely due to multiple factors (thermoregulation, obstetrics, locomotion) influencing its shape (Ruff 1994; Auerback 2007) ..."

---

quote:

---

"What we can say, however, is that in the Holocene, humans from southwest Asia do not exhibit tropically adapted body shape (Crognier 1981; Eveleth and Tanner 1976; Schreider 1975).... "

---

quote:

---

In fact, in terms of body shape, the European and the Inuit samples tend to be cold-adapted and tend to be separated in multivariate space from the more tropically adapted Africans, especially those groups from south of the Sahara.

---

quote:

---

"Little change in body shape was found through time, suggesting that all body segments were varying in size in response to environmental and social conditions. The change found in body plan is suggested to be the result of the later groups having a more tropical (Nilotic) form than the preceding populations."

---

quote:

---

"An examination of the distance hierarchies reveals the Badarian series to be more similar to the Teita in both analyses and always more similar to all of the African series than to the Norse and Berg groups (see Tables 3A & 3B and Figure 2). Essentially equal similarity is found with the Zalavar and Dogon series in the 11-variable analysis and with these and the Bushman in the one using 15 variables. The Badarian series clusters with the tropical African groups no matter which algorithm is employed (see Figures 3 and 4).. In none of them did the Badarian sample affiliate with the European series."

---

quote:

---

With the intensification of archaeological research in the Egyptian Western Desert evidence of prehistoric humanoccupation has been consistently found in both the oasesregion and the playas region to the south. Major breaks in the chrono-cultural sequence are related to climaticvariations. After a major arid event during the latePleistocene, which completely dried up the Sahara,forcing the people to cluster along the Nile (and in theCentral Sahara massifs), the Holocene period wascharacterised by better climatic conditions due to anorthward shifting of the monsoon summer rain regime(Kuper and Kropelin 2006; Wendorf and Schild 2001).The desert was again settled, although cyclical minor aridspells required the population to move back and forthfrom the desert to the Nile or to remain in the oases. Fromthe 4th millennium BC another major arid event forcedthe people to concentrate in the oases area and to settlemore permanently to the Nile Valley"

---

-- Karen Exell

Egypt in its African Context

Proceedings of the conferenceheld at The Manchester Museum,University of Manchester, 2-4 October 2009

https://www.academia.edu/545582/The_Nubian_Pastoral_Culture_as_Link_between_Egypt_and_Africa_A_View_from_the_Archaeological_Recor
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
What typical, near eastern, middle eastern, jewish woman actually looks anything like THE Nefertiti but ( without a nose job) the average nose on these women and men for that matter is huge..

Palestinian
[img]

Yemen


Saudi Arabia




Abusir mummies have what is purported to be mostly "near eastern" dna but the typical Egyptian portraits of ancient egyptians don't look like your current day typical "near easterners" That is curious to me.

[ 03. March 2018, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Punos_Rey ]
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The bust will continue being the
official face of Nefertiti as long
as she's touted as the source of
Akhenaten's One God revolution.

A nice bright thin lipped narrow
nosed face for Monotheistic belief.
A belief that began in ancient Africa
before Islam
before Christianity
before Judaism
 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The bust will continue being the
official face of Nefertiti as long
as she's touted as the source of
Akhenaten's One God revolution.

A nice bright thin lipped narrow
nosed face for Monotheistic belief.
A belief that began in ancient Africa
before Islam
before Christianity
before Judaism

---

Like this you mean?



or this
 

---

Posted by Oshun (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

Abusir mummies have what is purported to be mostly "near eastern" dna but the typical Egyptian portraits of ancient egyptians don't look like your current day typical "near easterners" That is curious to me.

---

quote:

---

God's Wife of Amun has its origins prior to the 18th Dynasty, appearing first in the 10th and 12th Dynasties of the Middle Kingdom, but it was an obscure, non-royal role prior to the reign of Ahmose I, the founder of the New Kingdom. He not only elevated the "Great Southern City" (Thebes), but also the position of God's Wife of Amen, by bestowing it on his chief wife, Ahmose Nefertari. She had held the title, Second Prophet of Amun, an exceptional rank for a woman, but arranged by contract to exchange the title for that of God's Wife. In doing so, she created an important religious concept held at least through the 18th Dynasty. During this period, the Egyptians held that the crown prince was the child not of the king, but of the union between Amun and his Great Royal Wife.

At first, the position was hereditary, more or less, passing either to the daughter of the Queen who held the title, or to the next king's wife, who frequently was one and the same. From Ahmes Nefertari the title passed to her daughter, Meritamen after she married her brother, Amenhotep I. However, it was Hatshepsut who took the position over from Meritamen, rather than the wife of Tuthmosis I, perhaps because his chief wife, Ahmes, may have been the sister of Meritamen. Hatshepsut seems to have kept it when she became regent for Tuthmoses III and it has been suggested that the title was so important that this was a means to gather authority for Hatshepsut before she claimed the throne. She did not relinquish the title until she later took the full titles of a king. However, now as king, sometimes depicted as a man, it would have been incongruent for her to remain as God's wife, so she relinquished the role to her daughter by Tuthmosis II, Princess Neferure.

---

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/godswife.htm

Ahmose Nefertari God's Wife

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose-Nefertari

Of course the facts don't stop these people....
https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2016/11/exhibition-shows-luxury-and-power-of-egyptian-queens


But that said there are still plenty of obviously African mummies from later eras in Egypt and the question becomes why don't we have the DNA from these mummies?

Ironically enough the mummies of the 20th and 21st dynasty are from a time when there was a LOT of Levantine mixture in Egypt (supposedly) as the Ramessid era was constantly fighting wars in the levant but these mummies also seem to be the most African looking of ANY Egyptian mummies....


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nodjmet
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
[qb]
Abusir mummies have what is purported to be mostly "near eastern" dna but the typical Egyptian portraits of ancient egyptians don't look like your current day typical "near easterners" That is curious to me.

---

One thing to probably think about is that Abusir's mummies were Lower Egyptians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oshun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
okay, so, basically you subscribe to the social construct of race but acknowledge its unscientific validity. In other words, you are willing to dabble in pseudoscience if it suits your agenda to convey a belief of yours. Is that a fair assessment?

---

Race isn't biologically valid, but it is a real social construct that has real life impact to human beings based on their appearance. If I discuss race, I am not discussing "race" as a biological construct but a sociological one. Which means if I discuss race, it'd be to discuss aspects of appearance that harbor social impact.

---

Two part question: (1) In the United States, is a dark skin with curly hair North African treated the same as an African American? (2) Is there a color, hair texture and facial phenotype hierarchy in the US?

---

Yes, they can be treated the same. Many darker to mid tone northern Africans look like many blacks in the United States.

These kids:



Look distinct from a lot of west African blacks, but they look like a lot of blacks in the U.S. This is why a lot of blacks (especially in the U.S) don't think of everyone in North Africa as one race. Calling them "whites" fantasy.

---

This is true, and no matter how they flip it, they will always shoot themselves in the foot.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
What typical, near eastern, middle eastern, jewish woman actually looks anything like THE Nefertiti but ( without a nose job) the average nose on these women and men for that matter is huge..

Palestinian
[img]

Yemen


Saudi Arabia




Abusir mummies have what is purported to be mostly "near eastern" dna but the typical Egyptian portraits of ancient egyptians don't look like your current day typical "near easterners" That is curious to me.

---

One should not forget Nefertiti's banger booty.



 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
Indians have been living in Socotra since the first century BCE
Thats why some Socotra islanders look like this:




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socotra

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It doesn’t show in the gene pool. Sorry!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It doesn’t show in the gene pool. Sorry!

---

False, N is found in Socotra and India

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It doesn’t show in the gene pool. Sorry!

---

False, N is found in Socotra and India

---

“N” what?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
It doesn’t show in the gene pool. Sorry!

---

False, N is found in Socotra and India

---

“N” what?

---

mtDNA haplogroup N

---

By “what”, I mean the sub-clade.

Let’s not forget the L3 is parental to mt-DNA N.
Let’s not forget that the Socotra are a ancient outgoing population.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 




Out of Arabia—The settlement of Island Soqotra as revealed by mitochondrial and Y chromosome genetic diversity

Article (PDF Available)  in American Journal of Physical Anthropology 138(4):439-47 · December 2008 

______________________

Most Soqotri people from Al-Mahrah tribe, who are of Southern Arabian descent from Al Mahrah Governorate in Yemen related with the Qara and Mahra groups of Southern Arabia. There are also a small number of residents of Somali and other Africans and people Indian origin.
 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Results

The Saudi mtDNA profile confirms the absence of autochthonous mtDNA lineages in Arabia with coalescence ages deep enough to support population continuity in the region since the out-of-Africa episode.

[…]

Introduction


At the beginning of this century, studies based on mtDNA complete genomes [15–18] confirmed that only two mtDNA lineages (named M and N), sister branches of the African macro-haplogroup L3 lineages, embraced all the mtDNA variation that exists out of Africa. Based on the phylogeography of M and N in Eurasia, it was proposed that M and N could respectively represent the maternal signals of both a southern and a northern route out of Africa [19].

[…]

For western Eurasian haplogroups we relied on recent reviews carried out by others: N1 [6,25–29], N2 [6,27–29], N3 [26,28–30], N5 [27,31], and X [6,26,27,32]. In addition, 553 Arabian samples previously published in Abu-Amero et al. [19]) were also included in our study.

[…]

Khor Angar (Djibouti) L3 Expected age (Kya) 70.8(52.7–88.1)

Damqawt (Yemen) N1a3a Expected age (Kya) 68.2(56.1–80.0)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frankly Kemet:
The complexion they gave her is close to the pigment used to depict her on the relief. what the hell are you talking about?

---

Quite Frankly,

If you call that close, you need spectacles. There is a reason why I posted a closeup, but even that wasn’t sufficient for you. Please visit the optician rather hella quickly.

So you can observe better on Kemet.

Nefertiti’s booty,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cass/:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
So what lead them to "migrate back"?.

---

Phat asz thick thigh love lip African gahlz
what else?

---

Well, that's not supported by physical attractiveness data. European/Middle Eastern and East Asian men (on average) don't find large buttocks attractive; Caucasian men like medium size, while East Asians, small:

"This ethnic difference is apparent in the differences in ethnic ideals with respect to buttock augmentation surgery (Roberts et al., 2006) in which Asians prefer very small and African Americans very large buttocks."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4556148/

Caucasian & East Asian women are mostly similar, only African-American women in the following study thought large buttocks were beautiful.

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/IJCST-11-2015-0128?journalCode=ijcst

---

 

---

Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brit333:
Ancient Egyptians resembled modern Egyptians. The Middle Eastern Farmers migrated into Egypt about 9000 - 6000 years ago. They replaced the earlier Egyptians (Cro-Magnon descendants) and started farming in Egypt. Farming leads to civilization. Many small towns appear all over Egypt, the largest and most powerful being Hierakonpolis which eventually takes over the whole of Egypt.

Southern Egypt is a mix of East Africans, Berbers and Middle Eastern Farmers. Gerzean Culture of Southern Egypt was heavily influenced by Mesopotamia. I wonder why so many people ignore the fact that the ancient Sumerians (the first to build pyramids) heavily influenced Egypt?
http://www.recoveredscience.com/const128mesopotamianinfluences.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
I like the way Troll Patrol continues to have conversations with posters who have been banned since February, always looking for a fight

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
MIDDLE EASTERN FARMERS MIGRATED EUROPE. NORTH AFRICA, CENTRAL ASIA and NORTHERN INDIA about 9000 - 6000 years ago and thats why all these peoples resemble Mid East people.

Ancient Egyptians looking just like their Middle Eastern ancestors:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
The island of Socotra is found in the Gulf of Yemen. It has a LARGE AMOUNT of peoples who originally were runaway slaves. Does that make them the indigenous peoples of the Mid East? OH HELL NO>

They look like this:

---

Wow..Where did you come from? Stormfront? These guys were not slaves troll.These are Mahra arabs and yes they are black
 

---

Posted by Mwafrika Mkenya (Member # 21677) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
AGAIN AND AGAIN, the ancient mummies at Abusir el Meleq had light skin dark hair and eyes just like all the DNA taken from other mummies in Egypt and EXACTLY like modern Copts. They HAD NO SUB-SAHARAN DNA:
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14615

Daughters of the ancient Pharaohs:

---

More like daughters of greko-romans and Asiatic slaves
 

---

Posted by Mwafrika Mkenya (Member # 21677) on :
 
Now that we are discussing Nefertiti.





Nefertiti was most definitely a Bantu woman
 

---

Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
 
Nephs bust is fake asf don't @ me....
Nonetheless I doubt she was Bantu.
 

---

Posted by Ase (Member # 19740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mwafrika Mkenya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dinkum:
MIDDLE EASTERN FARMERS MIGRATED EUROPE. NORTH AFRICA, CENTRAL ASIA and NORTHERN INDIA about 9000 - 6000 years ago and thats why all these peoples resemble Mid East people.

Ancient Egyptians looking just like their Middle Eastern ancestors:

---

All these statues are fakes, modern creations. They look nothing like authentic Egyptian Statues

---

They're probably not fakes. The first on the bottom though from northern Egypt would pass for black:



This guy looks like SOY Keita.



More than likely, most if not all of these come from northern Egypt or have origins that aren't known. Nofret's family origins are unknown, and artistically it was normal at this time period to depict women with yellow skin. I'm not sure who Rahotep's mother was eithe. the scribe next to her is from Saqqara (north) the scribe above the image next to Nofret (last at the top) is also northern Egyptian (and was originally much darker if you look at his legs).





Both the above statues are from northern Egypt.



This guy Hor Awibre (also known as Hor I), is a second intermediate period ruler (if memory's right... I think he's from the north too). His tomb is found in Dashur. He may also be around the hyksos rise to power era. He's described as a ruler during the second intermediate period on wiki, but I'm not really sure about that. Still, Asiatics were making inroads at the time, especially in northern Egypt. So if he was from the north, it's anyone's guess what he was mixed with.
 

---

Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
Or it could be what some North East Africans looked like.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
I've pointed this out before and I'll point it out again, only with Egyptian remains do you have multiple reconstructions by different teams for the same skull.

This is what?.. the 4th reconstruction for Nefertiti?!

I recall the previous reconstruction made by a double-blinded team not knowing whom the skull belonged to and they came up with this.



^ the skin color and other finishing touches were made by an Egyptian basing his choice on the average skin color of the people of Akhmim Upper Egypt where Nefertiti's family is from.

Now it seems the 4th Reichers are trying to brush that aside and come up with their own version.



Suffice to say the team which did the above reconstruction was not double-blinded and knew damn well they were recreating the look of Nefertiti. Bias is ablaze.

They did the same thing with King Tut whose latest reconstruction is actually the 7th or 8th one!! LOL
 

---

Posted by AshaT (Member # 22658) on :
 
She's not even Nefertiti. She's Tiye's daughter. Dr. Fletcher has some interesting ruminations but this one in particular created a monster. More and more reconstructions to hide the obvious and no one connecting the first to the busts on canopic jars found in Tut's tomb.
 

---

Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:
[QB] She's not even Nefertiti. She's Tiye's daughter.

---

Yes both of the reconstructions below may be based on a mummy that is not even Nefertiti



"younger Lady"

quote:

---

https://wgntv.com/2018/02/07/3-d-image-of-egyptian-queen-not-nefertiti-local-professor-says/

3-D image of Egyptian queen ‘not Nefertiti’, local professor says
Posted 1:44 PM, February 7, 2018,


Zahi’s DNA testing of the royal mummies a few years ago, including the ‘younger’ and ‘older’ ladies, indicated that the mummy of the ‘younger lady’ was Tutankhamun’s mother, and – to everyone’s surprise – that she is also a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye.

If one accepts that the mummy of the ‘younger lady’ is the mother of Tutankhamun, then she cannot be Nefertiti. In no text is Nefertiti ever identified as a royal daughter. If she had been a daughter of Amenhotep III and Tiye, it would have been clearly stated in her inscriptions, and there are hundreds of texts that survive mentioning Nefertiti with no mention of her parents. It has been suggested that she was a daughter of Ay, one of Akhenaten and Tutankhamun’s high court officials, a military man who took the crown after Tutankhamun’s early death. Ay’s title, ‘God’s Father,’ could refer to his relationship to Nefertiti, who as queen could never claim a non-royal as her father. If the genetic analysis is correct and the mummy of the ‘younger lady’ is the mother of Tutankhamun and a daughter of Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye, then this mummy cannot be Nefertiti.

Numerous sculptures and reliefs survive of Nefertiti, who ruled as queen and then as king with her husband, including many portraits from the end of the Amarna Period when the art style favoured a naturalism that borders on true portraiture. There are elements common to all of these later representations of Nefertiti: a straight nose, heavy-lidded eyes, long graceful neck, and a strong square jaw. The forensically reconstructed face with its narrow skull, deep-set eyes, and triangular jaw is beautiful but in no way resembles the portraits that survive of Nefertiti. That said, they could be relatives. One must remember that Queen Tiye and Ay were siblings; if Nefertiti’s father was indeed Ay, she and the younger lady would have been cousins.

---

 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by AshaT:

She's not even Nefertiti. She's Tiye's daughter. Dr. Fletcher has some interesting ruminations but this one in particular created a monster. More and more reconstructions to hide the obvious and no one connecting the first to the busts on canopic jars found in Tut's tomb.

---