Where are the studies that place C in Africa? It must be an early branch of that arrow would be pointing in the opposite direction.
Sorta makes sense with Cheda and Brana.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Again. The elephant in the room. We have Oceanian Haplogroup C in Africa. West Africa. Less than 10%...but still present in West Africa!!! Again we are back to Mende? And it looks like East Africa also..Tanzania?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
I suspected they are hiding data....or studies. I have never seen any study showing C in Africa. I have seen DE in Nigeria but C....?
They are definitely holding out!!!!
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
This is news to me too. O is also in West Africa.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
So Nat Geo finds haplogroup C and doesn't trace the branch to see if its near the base or maybe they did and that is why they didn't add a back migration arrow. If its basalish I would assume it originated in Africa. If its down stream from west Asia you would have evidence of a back migration. If its downstream form North America I would lean toward precolumbian contact. Its the same with mtDNA N.
Some old school Atlantic travel. Olmecs and Tichitt?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That is right. They need to confirm if it is at the base
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
There you go...,
quote:Phylogenetic Mapping
Most of the mutations here analyzed belong to the African portion of the MSY phylogeny, which is comprised of haplogroups A1b, A1a, A2, A3 and B [16]. Through phylogenetic mapping it was possible to identify 15 new African haplogroups and to resolve one basal trifurcation (Figure 1). A new deep branch within the ‘‘out of Africa’’ haplogroup C was also identified (Figure S1).
Haplogroup A1b. The P114 mutation, which defines haplogroup A1b according to Karafet et al. [14], had been detected in central-western Africa at very low frequencies (in total, three chromosomes from Cameroon) [16,19].
[...]
‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (sample 33 in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C- specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6 in the tree by Karafet et al. [14] (Figure S1). Through this analysis we identified a chromosome from southern Europe as a new deep branch within haplogroup C (C-V20 or C7, Figure S1). Previously, only a few examples of C chromosomes (only defined by the marker RPS4Y711) had been found in southern Europe [32,33]. To improve our knowledge regarding the distribution of haplogroup C in Europe, we surveyed 1965 European subjects for the mutation RPS4Y711 and identified one additional haplogroup C chromosome from southern Europe, which has also been classified as C7 (data not shown). Further studies are needed to establish whether C7 chromosomes are the relics of an ancient European gene pool or the signal of a recent geographical spread from Asia. Two mutations, V248 and V87, which had never been previously described, were found to be specific to haplogroups C2 and C3, respectively (Figure S1). Three of the seven R-specific mutations (V45, V69 and V88) were previously mapped within haplogroup R [34], whereas the remaining four mutations have been here positioned at the root of haplogroups F (V186 and V205), K (V104) and P (V231) (Figure S1) through the analysis of 12 haplogroup F samples (samples 40–51, in Table S1).
[...]
Supporting Information
Figure S1 Structure of the macro-haplogroup CT. For details on mutations see legend to Figure 1. Dashed lines indicate putative branchings (no positive control available). The position of V248 (haplogroup C2) and V87 (haplogroup C3) compared to mutations that define internal branches was not determined. Note that mutations V45, V69 and V88 have been previously mapped (Cruciani et al. 2010; Eur J Hum Genet 18:800–807).
--Fulvio Cruciani et al.
Molecular Dissection of the Basal Clades in the Human Y Chromosome Phylogenetic Tree
Also,
quote:"haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval."
--Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007
Use of Y Chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Population Structure in Tracing Human Migrations
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Niiice Ish!!! I forgot about this paper. Re-Reading it now. Getting down on yDNA C in Africa!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
With Italy having so many deep clades I would tend to agree. Keeping in mind, IIRC, La Brana was yDNA C. Oceanian?
Abstract One hundred and forty-six previously detected mutations were more precisely positioned in the human Y chromosome phylogeny by the analysis of 51 representative Y chromosome haplogroups and the use of 59 mutations from literature. Twenty-two new mutations were also described and incorporated in the revised phylogeny. This analysis made it possible to identify new haplogroups and to resolve a deep trifurcation within haplogroup B2. Our data provide a highly resolved branching in the African-specific portion of the Y tree and support the hypothesis of an origin in the **north-western** quadrant of the African continent for the human MSY diversity.
Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (******sample 33 ******in Table S1), and positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT (Figure 1 and Figure S1).
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
WoooWW!! Always good to re-read these papers every few years. Sometimes we miss things...like this...Do you know the DE sample is ...South African? In my Table. Wow. More proof that the bridge to Oceania may have been across the Indian Oceanian. I have downloaded some papers on Malagasy and preparing to post on these Tribal groups in Madagascar. I did not know that Madagascar has many "different" human configuration but all speak the same language. I did not know that there was a raging debate back in the 1800s-early 1900's that these Malagasy "negros" were not Africans but Oceanians. I was shocked. The lies we were told. Where did these Europeans come up with Indonesians canoeing 4000miles to Africa??!!?....GTFOH!! lol! In fact reading these old papers Many authors at the time did NOT believe that BS hypothesis. I am not the only one. I will post when I have time.
Anyways back on topic Quote: ‘‘Out of Africa’’ haplogroups. All Y-clades that are not exclusively African belong to the macro-haplogroup CT, which is defined by mutations M168, M294 and P9.1 [14,31] and is subdivided into two major clades, DE and CF [1,14]. In a recent study [16], sequencing of two chromosomes belonging to haplogroups C and R, led to the identification of 25 new mutations, eleven of which were in the C-chromosome and seven in the R-chromosome. Here, the seven mutations which were found to be shared by chromosomes of haplogroups C and R [16], were also found to be present in one DE sample (******sample 33 ******in Table S1), and ***positioned at the root of macro-haplogroup CT ***(Figure 1 and Figure S1). Six haplogroup C chromosomes (samples 34–39 in Table S1) were analyzed for the eleven haplogroup C specific mutations [16] and for SNPs defining branches C1 to C6"
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
National Geographic has a shit ton of unpublished data collected by Spencer wells when he went around the planet studying the Y-chromosome. The movie can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_xTG6VXlIQ
He collected the data in the early 2000's. This was prior to the many consumer dna testing companies that you see today. This data was only LATER used in their Nat Geo Genographic DNA product you see today. Therefore many of the maps you see are only according to published data in addition to their own personal data that is unpublished.
If someone where is good in photo manipulation.....I have dozens of Heat maps of all of their different Y-dna and Mtdna. The Heatmaps (orange) are one image. The Globe Map (in Blue) are a separate background image and the heatmap must be overlayed transparent onto the background image giving you the combined image you see above.
If anyone is interesting in putting all the data together I can put it on a file share and grant you access. Just Reply.....and dont waste everyones time, If you dont know how to do it...the data is nearly meaningless just looking at it. Optimally you want a program where you can add 100's of images IN BULK and individually onto ONE static background image with certain alignment parameters so the heatmaps sync with the actual map image.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
So....if I understand the hypothesis correctly ......Indonesian women took their 4ft Canoes, loaded it with plants and animals and decided to travel 4000miles of open Ocean to get some black love and hook up with black men. HA! HA! HA! Lol! Only Europeans can come up with such a nonsensical hypothesis. And only stupid black people would believe it.
------------------- Quote Genomic landscape of human diversity across Madagascar - Denis Pierrona
"Overall, Y chromosome lineages of African origin are much more frequent in Madagascar than are lineages of East Asian origin (70.7 vs. 20.7%), in contrast to the mtDNA lineages (42.4 African origin vs. 50.1% East Asian origin) (Fig. 2B and Fig. S1). Other Y chromosome lineages with uncertain origins are also present; some of these (R1a, J2, T1, G2) are also present in the Middle East and may reflect the Muslim influence on Madagascar and the Comoros (23, 24). Haplogroup R1b, characteristic of western Europeans, is present in low frequency (0.9%), suggesting a limited paternal contribution from western Europeans." ---------------------
I would like to get my hands on the dataset to look at the R1a and R1b and T1(Ethiopian?). What do you think ElMaestro? Where is the dataset? I couldn't find it. It went Vuuusssh!!! Gone!
edit: So it was "NOT" Indonesian men making the trip it was Indonesian women!!! SMH! WT....F!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That reminds me About the discussion I had with Cass/Dead before the paper on Malawi -Hora was fully published. There was speculation about Hora was a Caucasian and carried Caucasian DNA. Then he brought up or I brought up another paper he was supposed to dig up for me. The paper was titled about an ancient "Chinese" man found South Africa....So there you have it. It is all coming together now.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [Q] May be the “bone” guys can help me out here also. I am now getting into this. Looks like, The idea I have of an ancient connection (or land mass) between Southern Africa and Asia is not new. I am trying to get my hands on these papers..
DD’Eden, anyone. • Dart, R. A. (1952). "A Hottentot from Hong Kong: pre-Bantu population exchanges between Asia and Africa". South African Journal of Medical Sciences. 17. pp. 117–42. • Dart, R. A. (1955). "Foreign Influences of the Zimbabwe and Pre-Zimbabwe eras". N []
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: [QB] National Geographic has a shit ton of unpublished data collected by Spencer wells when he went around the planet studying the Y-chromosome. The movie can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_xTG6VXlIQ
He collected the data in the early 2000's. This was prior to the many consumer dna testing companies that you see today. This data was only LATER used in their Nat Geo Genographic DNA product you see today. Therefore many of the maps you see are only according to published data in addition to their own personal data that is unpublished.
If someone where is good in photo manipulation.....I have dozens of Heat maps of all of their different Y-dna and Mtdna. The Heatmaps (orange) are one image. The Globe Map (in Blue) are a separate background image and the heatmap must be overlayed transparent onto the background image giving you the combined image you see above.
If anyone is interesting in putting all the data together I can put it on a file share and grant you access. Just Reply.....and dont waste everyones time, If you dont know how to do it...the data is nearly meaningless just looking at it. Optimally you want a program where you can add 100's of images IN BULK and individually onto ONE static background image with certain alignment parameters so the heatmaps sync with the actual map image.
I don't know if my photoshop skills are capable of all of that. I would like to see all of them to help create something simpler.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
^He said hit him up...I am curious to see it also.
Anyways.. Europeans in total confusion....What does this remind you of? Pagani! Stating "Eurasian" Elements were in West Africa BEFORE East Africa!!
Quote: ------- RAYMOND A. DART-Recent Discoveries Supplemented the accumulating skeletal information and have rendered possible such a general Survey of peoples living on the African continent I put forward in " Racial Origins" (1937B). I showed that the Bantu are constituted from a Bush and Negro matrix, but that before they fused, the Bush race had already been infiltrated with Brown (Mediterranean racial elements and the Negro with Nordic elements. Further, for the last thousand years or more , Asiatics of both Armenoid and Mongoloid character have been absorbed into the racial complexity which confront us in the modern African population.
More recently in order to understand how and when a Nordic element could have passed across the Sahara belt and fused with the Negro stock** prior to** its pouring down the eastern half of Africa to form our modern Bantu, I have analysed the available records of crania ranging over the last seven millennia and excavated in the Nile valley. It seemed that such an extensive southward Nordic migrations I had postulated could not have occurred without affecting the population of Egypt in some obvious fashion. In point of fact I have discovered sufficient anatomical evidence to indicate not one, but at least four such south-eastward movements of principally Nordic peoples into the Egyptian valley, and to demonstrate that they occurred rhythmically at intervals of approximately two thousand years onwards from the time of the Last Ice Age. -------------
Yes! Europeans are all confused.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
There you have it…..Since the 1800s some Europeans had acknowledge the fact that Europeans are a subset of Africans. I am surprised you “experts” on Anthropology hadn’t posted on Dart.
McEvoy and Dart. Genetics and Anthropology
Dart
McEvoy Quote
“While the exact bias is difficult to estimate (Sved et al. 2008), it appears that post-divergence migration rates from Africa to Europe would need to be approximately CONSTANT because we observe consistent ratios of TF and TLD at different genetic distances. Thus, the observations are suggestive that GREATER MIGRATION TO EUROPE FROM SUB-SAHARAN AFRICAN HAS BEEN A LONG-TERM PHENOMENON. Y-chromosome and mtDNA lineages are generally highly differentiated between continents, making them powerful genetic markers of intercontinental migration. Most of the lineages that are characteristic of sub-Saharan Africa are absent in Europe (and vice versa) (Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman 2003; Underhill and Kivisild 2007). However, the coalescent time and geographic distribution of the Y-chromosome E3b (E-M215) haplogroup points to a late Pleistocene migration from Eastern Africa to Western Eurasia via the Nile Valley and Sinai Peninsula ;20–25 KYA (Cruciani et al. 2004, 2007; Luis et al. 2004). “
@Sage....?? This may explain some of the "shorty" alleles found in the Amarnas!!
Where am I going with this? We need to do our own independent data analysis. We have seen that the Mainstream media and publications have a concerted effort to lie and deceive the novice reader. Some researchers have broken rank. Dart, Sergi, McEvoy, Arnaiz-Villens etc...... Some have been ridicule …but modern genetics is proven them to be right all along.
Will modern genetics make liars of historians? So far it has done a great job.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
DD’Eden, anyone. • Dart, R. A. (1952). "A Hottentot from Hong Kong: pre-Bantu population exchanges between Asia and Africa". South African Journal of Medical Sciences. 17. pp. 117–42.
Not sure what xyyman is claiming, but Admiral Cheng Ho brought his Chinese fleet to Kenya and some Chinese were left there, I would expect he brought some natives back to China. What is the Hottentot dated at?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage....?? This may explain some of the "Shorty" alleles found in the Amarnas!! .
OK Mensamind, please expand.
I haven't really looked into it. Just assumed it was from "Dancer of the God" officiants. Somewhat similar to but not at all like the case of Nabo & queen Marie-Thérèsa.
@DD East Africans traveled to China on their own too. The Sung Shi mentions two visits by an ambassador Zengjiani of Zenjistan 200 years before Marco Polo.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
If I am undersatnding Dart correctly...he is stating that Khoi-San/MButi types people existed in pre-dynastic Egypt.
@DD What do you think? Indonesian women navigated to Africa in 4ft Canoes bringing the animals and plants? You know that R. Dart agrees with your view that Pygmies migrated from Africa to Asia keeping to a tropical belt?
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @Sage....?? This may explain some of the "Shorty" alleles found in the Amarnas!! .
OK Mensamind, please expand.
I haven't really looked into it. Just assumed it was from "Dancer of the God" officiants. Somewhat similar to but not at all like the case of Nabo & queen Marie-Thérèsa.
@DD East Africans traveled to China on their own too. The Sung Shi mentions two visits by an ambassador Zengjiani of Zenjistan 200 years before Marco Polo.
Zang@Persian: black ~ zanj@Arb Zanz.ibar = black.coast
Yes, there were long distance travels by many traders etc. by then. I wasn't sure if Xyyman meant far earlier.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If I am undersatnding Dart correctly...he is stating that Khoi-San/MButi types people existed in pre-dynastic Egypt.
If so, IMO there might have been small nomadic H&G groups. Both were in the Rift valley, Mbuti dialect was spoken in the southern mountains by 'pygmoids'.
@DD What do you think? Indonesian women navigated to Africa in 4ft Canoes bringing the animals and plants?
4' no, 24' or 40' maybe. Men may have been killed off? Huricane during monsoon? By then much sailing was done, but Madagascar wasn't near the usual coastal route.
Uganda swamp had banana phytoliths from Malaya 4ka, long before Malagasy est'd.
You know that R. Dart agrees with your view that Pygmies migrated from Africa to Asia keeping to a tropical belt?
Dart was early Paleoanthropologist. To me, no doubt at all, no sailboats then, just coracles/dome shields/shelters.
Note: possibly the Hottentot brought there ridgeback hunting dogs from Africa. If so, then the Phu Quoc Island ridgeback dog was not indigenous to Vietnam/Cambodia, which would demolish my hypothesis the dog domestication began there and moved west & north. But it is possible the dogs were taken from there by Chinese fleet to Africa instead.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
We know the domestication of Dogs took place in Africa.....This has been cited many times over the last few months
How quickly we forget...
"men may have been killed off"....SMH
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If I am undersatnding Dart correctly...he is stating that Khoi-San/MButi types people existed in pre-dynastic Egypt.
@DD What do you think? Indonesian women navigated to Africa in 4ft Canoes bringing the animals and plants? You know that R. Dart agrees with your view that Pygmies migrated from Africa to Asia keeping to a tropical belt?
Wikipedia reports that A3b2 is 3% of modern Egypt and LO is looks like 5%.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: We know the domestication of Dogs took place in Africa.....This has been cited many times over the last few months
I missed that.
How quickly we forget...
"men may have been killed off"....SMH
Got a better idea? Might be parallel to the Austronesian men replaced by Papuan men at Samoa?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: DD’Eden, anyone. • Dart, R. A. (1952). "A Hottentot from Hong Kong: pre-Bantu population exchanges between Asia and Africa". South African Journal of Medical Sciences. 17. pp. 117–42.
Not sure what xyyman is claiming, but Admiral Cheng hed Ho brought his Chinese fleet to Kenya and some Chinese were left there, I would expect he brought some natives back to China. What is the Hottentot dated at?
Such thing like generations can be measured and traced back by TMCA.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If I am undersatnding Dart correctly...he is stating that Khoi-San/MButi types people existed in pre-dynastic Egypt.
@DD What do you think? Indonesian women navigated to Africa in 4ft Canoes bringing the animals and plants? You know that R. Dart agrees with your view that Pygmies migrated from Africa to Asia keeping to a tropical belt?
Wikipedia reports that A3b2 is 3% of modern Egypt and LO is looks like 5%.
Fourty2 tribes, I'm not a geneticist, what populations are high in A3b2 & LO? Mbuti & San?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If I am undersatnding Dart correctly...he is stating that Khoi-San/MButi types people existed in pre-dynastic Egypt.
@DD What do you think? Indonesian women navigated to Africa in 4ft Canoes bringing the animals and plants? You know that R. Dart agrees with your view that Pygmies migrated from Africa to Asia keeping to a tropical belt?
Wikipedia reports that A3b2 is 3% of modern Egypt and LO is looks like 5%.
Perhaps this comes at handy:
ancient DNA results from Kush and the Tasian site of Kadruka (precusor to Badarian/Naqada):
From Genetic Patterns of Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA Variation, with Implications to the Peopling of the Sudan (Hassan 2009)
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@DD M13 is yDNA A. So what Ish is showing you is that the KhoiSan/MButi Haplgroup has been in AE since the Neolithic in fact it is the predominant yDNA since the Neolithic with the only other showing being YAP either E1b1b or E1b1a or something similar.
To Sage's question, this is agreement Amarna analysis. With certain genetic material pre-dominant in Khoi_San and Mbuti being present the Amarnas. That is why the brown component is so high in Somalis and Southern African looking at the Abusir mummies.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
xyyman, see this, sent me in response to your note
"Perhaps the most bizarre of Dart’s typological papers discussing Khoekhoe individuals was the one published in 1952 entitled A Hottentot from Hong Kong in which he compared African archaeological skeletons to skeletons of south Chinese individuals excavated from the old mine compounds of Johannesburg."
Mucho gracia! On it!
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
The branch of LO, LOa that overlaps Egypt is frequent with Mbuti and Biaka. Wiki has an write up on M13/A3b2. I might add the Neolithic Sudan to it.
A-M31 The subclade A-M31 has been found in approximately 2.8% (8/282) of a pool of seven samples of various ethnic groups in Guinea-Bissau, especially among the Papel-Manjaco-Mancanha (5/64 = 7.8%).[17] An earlier study, Gonçalves et al. 2003, reported finding A-M31 in 5.1% (14/276) of a sample from Guinea-Bissau and in 0.5% (1/201) of a pair of samples from Cabo Verde.[23] The authors of another study have reported finding haplogroup A-M31 in 5% (2/39) of a sample of Mandinka from Senegambia and 2% (1/55) of a sample of Dogon from Mali.[5] Haplogroup A-M31 also has been found in 3% (2/64) of a sample of Berbers from Morocco[6] and 2.3% (1/44) of a sample of unspecified ethnic affiliation from Mali.[10]
They were also among Beyoko's 42 leaked OK A-M13 L3f Ok A-M13 L0a1 OK B-M150 L3d OK E-M2 L3e5 OK E-M2 L2a1 OK E-M123 L5a1 OK E-M35 R0a OK E-M41 L2a1 OK E-M41 L1b1a OK E-M75 M1 OK E-M78 L4b OK J-M267 L3i OK R-M173 L2 OK T-M184 L0a
Like I said, I never looked into Mbuti or Click speakers as far as the prehistoric Lower Nile Valley goes. So I appreciate the lesson you all are teaching me.
'STR'ing the Amarna's revealed some Mbuti and Biaka Shorty predominant alleles. There were alleles shared between Amarnas and San but pretty much pan-African.
That informed layman K4-13 STRUCTURE graph indicated a San component in Natufians but it had no Shorty samples.
I'd like to look into this brown you're talking about. Please cite. Thx.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Brown component? This was discussed many times over.
While they had us focusing on the “red” component(which is not really YRI because it is found outside of Africa prior to the Abusir period) and we overlooked the brown. Notice the brown component is found in Palestinians but it is really an East African component found in indigenous South Africans also including Sandwe and Ethiopian Jews and Somalis. In fact Iberians carry a lower frequency. It has higher frequency in Makrani than Iberians. This brown component has highest frequency in Bediouns. Note also it is the largest of the three components found in Abusirs.
It is also found in Mota, Makrani and Neolithic Levant. Understand the significance???!!!
Remember Makrani of the Indus Valley. Are we talking IVC?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That brown Abusir component is non-existent in the Basque, but present in the Canary Islanders(ancient), not present in Northern Europeans but neither in modern French and English. Understand how these Europeans play games and try to deceive us.
So they spin the “Abusir is less sub-saharan” they mean the British, French and Nordics are also included But Mota, Makrani and the entire Eastern portion of the Africa are related to the Abusirs unlike the Nordics and French and British and Basque. Lol! They can’t keep a straight face when they lie. SMH!
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Y invite me then make it hard to pitch in?
Can you just please tell me where to find the STRUCTURE you're referencing please, that's if u wanme 2 cents pon it. I don't have it handy and I ain't a go fishin'.
Here. U may like this 118 yr old ol skool anthro hipped us to Gulfer blacks backinnadays
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You are good. :cool:
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
I know these older anthropology classification are half bs but how could they determine the guy on the left was mixed?
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Please don't take this personally or take it the wrong way please.
Modern genetic studies are vindicating what the Early Black Scholars handed down to black people who accept building upper stories. Of course there's those prefer ignoring them and digging their own individual foundations starting all the way back to Square One Basement while other peoples progress from generation to generation building their skyscrapers from floor to floor.
Make no mistake those ol skool anthros were colonial European in worldview. Our task is to separate baby from dirt from bathwater from tub, retaining the tub, drawing fresh bathwater as needed, and getting the dirt off the next baby (repeat ad infinitum).
In other words me myself couldn't give a rats rear end why Deniker says admixed. That's his biz. I see a Makrani black indigenous to the Gulf, period. He no doubt on my part has goodly amounts of that STRUCTURE brown Xyyman's talkin' 'bout. Maybe one day he'll gimme that reference so I can do a redux or two on it. HINT Mensa HINT get a clue and come on through.
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Y invite me then make it hard to pitch in?
Can you just please tell me where to find the STRUCTURE you're referencing please, that's if u wanme 2 cents pon it. I don't have it handy and I ain't a go fishin
Skip right to the SUPP that has the mass of data and all populations in ADMIXTURE.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If I am undersatnding Dart correctly...he is stating that Khoi-San/MButi types people existed in pre-dynastic Egypt.
@DD What do you think? Indonesian women navigated to Africa in 4ft Canoes bringing the animals and plants? You know that R. Dart agrees with your view that Pygmies migrated from Africa to Asia keeping to a tropical belt?
This was the Anu people.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
xyyman, tukuler: 'Onge' of Andamans is 100% brown in table, or is that a different color?
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: If I am undersatnding Dart correctly...he is stating that Khoi-San/MButi types people existed in pre-dynastic Egypt.
@DD What do you think? Indonesian women navigated to Africa in 4ft Canoes bringing the animals and plants? You know that R. Dart agrees with your view that Pygmies migrated from Africa to Asia keeping to a tropical belt?
This was the Anu people.
Dr. Winters, I generally accept your hypotheses as possible or plausible, but I have already shown that the "Anu proto-pygmies" has no evidential reality.
The Paleo-Pygmies that kept to the tropical rainforest belt did not wear woven clothing but perhaps pounded bark loincloths, did not construct square houses on square lots, rather dome huts in round camps, did not herd grazing sheep or other animals in the open but drove forest prey into traps/nets.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN: xyyman, tukuler: 'Onge' of Andamans is 100% brown in table, or is that a different color?
I did one redux weighted by majority and plurality brown, will post soon enough.
Yes, the Onge brown is NOT the same brown that shows up to ~98% in the Natufians. Zooming the STRUCTURE @ 6400% in Adobe and looking at Mota Man you can see the 2 browns. And in a few other pops you can see other colors between the 2 browns.
Thx
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
co-signed. Onge is a different brown. I believe this was discussed before in that other thread. That is why I have the question mark over Onge
Interestingly, Mota has BOTH shades of brown. Mota is 4000year old is sub-saharan Africa to the East.......
Also Makrani has BOTH Shades of brown in trace amounts but the stunner is that Makrani has the larger portion of blue and large portion of pink!! Significance? Makrani although "Negros" are NOT RECENT Africans, they are Neolithic. That are NOT related to extant East Africans. They may be part of the Neolithic package that migrated to the Harrapan Valley
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Unless there's a 3rd Brown then Onge Brown is in these three individual ancient samples • 5% Armenian Chalcolithic • 12% Armenian Middle late bronze • 8% Europe Late Ballers
And oh my stars and garters Is that Chipewa (AmerInd) Pink in one Natufian? No, not the Natufian with both browns.
I'm labeling that Natufian brown component Erythrea, where I think it originated then moved into the Levant as the African element of the Natufians and persists even in diasporic 'Jewish' populations at higher frequencies than in their hosts.
The Makrani samples show Volta-Niger (Yoruba) Red and Erythrea Brown substrata. Volta-Niger is miniscule in the Caucasus Hunter Gatherer so is at least that old. But I think it could've layered Baluchistan around Late Neolithic/'Chalcolithic' since it peppers other continents that era.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
So how do you discribe these in between African populations that still exist for people how have no idea of them? Unlike other dark skin groups who maybe older these Neolithic people are interesting because of their in between status.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Also interesting is that the light blue component is found at 60% in Makrani. This frequency is shared with Adygei and Kalash. Two populations that is an anomaly in "Asia". Makrani has pink component also.
Makrani are NOT SSA slaves!!!
Keep in mind this is a "supervised" Cluster Chart! Meaning the SNPs were deliberately chosen by the researchers but nevertheless the information obtained is fascinating.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Leg Med (Tokyo). 2015 Mar;17(2):134-9. doi: 10.1016/j.legalmed.2014.09.007. Epub 2014 Oct 13.
Genetic characterization of the Makrani people of Pakistan from mitochondrial DNA control-region data. Siddiqi MH1,
The Makrani population showed a high genetic diversity (0.9688) and, consequently, a high power of discrimination (0.9592). Our results revealed a strongly admixed mtDNA pool composed of African haplogroups (28%), West Eurasian haplogroups (26%), South Asian haplogroups (24%), and East Asian haplogroups (2%), while the origin of the remaining individuals (20%) could not be confidently assigned.
_________________________________________
Qamar et al. (2002) analysed Makrani Siddis in Pakistan and found around 12% carried Africa-derived clades, which mainly consisted of the archaic haplogroup B-M60, of which they bore the highest frequency of any Pakistani population
B-M60 is common in parts of Africa, especially the tropical forests of West-Central Africa. It was the ancestral haplogroup of not only modern Pygmies like the Baka and Mbuti, but also Hadzabe from Tanzania, who often have been considered, in large part because of some typological features of their language, to be a remnant of Khoisan people in East Africa.
According to one study of the Y-DNA of populations in Sudan, haplogroup B-M60 is found in approximately 30% (16/53) of Southern Sudanese, 16% (5/32) of local Hausa people, 14% (4/28) of the Nuba of central Sudan, 3.7% (8/216) of Northern Sudanese (but only among Copts and Nubians), and 2.2% (2/90) of Western Sudanese.[5] According to another study, haplogroup B is found in approximately 15% of Sudanese males, including 12.5% (5/40) B2a1a1a1 (M109/M152) and 2.5% (1/40) B-M60(xM146, M150, M112).[7]
In Madagascar, haplogroup B-M60 has been found in approximately 9% of Malagasy males, including 6% (2/35) B-M60(xB2b-50f2(P)) and 3% (1/35) B2b-50f2(P).[12]
In Hormozgan Province in Iran, haplogroup B-M60 has been found in 8.2% of a sample of 49 Qeshmi people, and in 2.3% of a sample of 131 Bandari people.
Many of the Africans brought into the Indian subcontinent entered through the ports of Baluchistan and Sindh, where they worked as dockworkers, horse-keepers, domestic servants, agricultural workers, nurses, palanquin carriers and apprentices to blacksmiths and carpenters. In 1851, the linguist Sir Richard Burton, who served in the British Army in Sindh, noted how up to 700 Bambasi, Habshi and Zangibari—all Africans—were imported annually into neighboring Baluchistan. Females were in greater demand and were priced at around 50 pounds, while children were bartered for grain, cloth and other goods. Much of the vocabulary used by the Afro-Sindhi descendants of these migrants is a modified Swahili. For instance, the word for shield in Swahili, ngao, is gao among the Afro-Sindhi; the word for moon (or one month) in Swahili, mwesi, is moesi in Afro-Sindhi.
Pakistan has the most people of African descent in South Asia. It has been estimated that at least a quarter of the total population of the Makran coast is of African ancestry—that is, at least 250,000 people living on the southern coast of Pakistan, which overlaps with southeastern Iran, can claim East African descent. Beginning in 1650 Oman traded more heavily with the Lamu archipelago on the Swahili coast and transported Africans to the Makran coast. As a result, today many Pakistani of African descent are referred to as Makrani, whether or not they live there. On the coast they are also variously referred to as dada, sheedi and syah (all meaning black), or alternatively, gulam (slave) or naukar (servant). The children of Sindhi Muslim men and sidiyani (female Africans) are called gaddo—as in half-caste. The population geneticist Lluis Quintana-Murci of the Pasteur Institute in Paris found that more than 40 percent of the maternal gene pool of the Makrani is of African origin.
"Mombasa Street" and "Sheedi Village" in Karachi speak to the African presence in modern-day Pakistan. The predominantly Muslim Afro-Pakistani community in Karachi continues to celebrate the Manghopir festival, in honor of the Sufi saint Mangho Haji Syed Sakhi Sultan. Outside the main shrine in Karachi, there is a pond with crocodiles that are served specially prepared food. The crocodiles, which were venerated by Hindus before the advent of Islam and are also regarded with esteem by Africans, have become an integral part of the shrine. Although the Sheedis no longer understand all the words of the songs they sing, they pass along this tradition to succeeding generations.
Maritime activities on the Pakistani Makran coast influenced the music of Afro-Baluchis, many of whom were seafarers who maintained contacts with eastern and northeastern Africa through the middle of the 20th century. There are distinct similarities between the Afro-Pakistani drumming and singing performances called laywa in the Makran and those called lewa in coastal Oman—songs consisting of Swahili words and references to both East Africa and the sea.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
^^ Why is B-M60 described as an archaic haplogroup when it post dates modern homo-sapiens by more than 100K years?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
So you are saying Makrani’s are like LuxManda. 60% Sardinian autosomal SNP but carry African mtDNA L
What is it with these female sailors? Lol! 28% African MtDNA and 12 % African yDNA. Same as these Indonesian women sailors sailing 4000 miles across the Indian Ocean because they ..”felt like it”. The vast majority were Indonesian women. Just as the African women , Makranis’. Were the men pussies? Lol!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So you are saying Makrani’s are like LuxManda. 60% Sardinian autosomal SNP but carry African mtDNA L
What is it with these female sailors? Lol! 28% African MtDNA and 12 % African yDNA. Same as these Indonesian women sailors sailing 4000 miles across the Indian Ocean because they ..”felt like it”. The vast majority were Indonesian women. Just as the African women , Makranis’. Were the men pussies? Lol!
The Makranins carry an African Y-DNA haplogroup B-M60 at 12% and also mtDNA L2a1b1a found mostly in Mozambique and other L clades at 29%
The Genetic Legacy of the Indian Ocean Slave Trade: Recent Admixture and Post-admixture Selection in the Makranis of Pakistan
Author links open overlay panelRomualdLaso-Jadart123ChristineHarmant123HélèneQuach123NoraZidane123ChrisTyler-Smith4QasimMehdi56QasimAyub47LluisQuintana-Murci1238EtiennePatin1238 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ajhg.2017.09.025
From the eighth century onward, the Indian Ocean was the scene of extensive trade of sub-Saharan African slaves via sea routes controlled by Muslim Arab and Swahili traders. Several populations in present-day Pakistan and India are thought to be the descendants of such slaves, yet their history of admixture and natural selection remains largely undefined. Here, we studied the genome-wide diversity of the African-descent Makranis, who reside on the Arabian Sea coast of Pakistan, as well that of four neighboring Pakistani populations, to investigate the genetic legacy, population dynamics, and tempo of the Indian Ocean slave trade. We show that the Makranis are the result of an admixture event between local Baluch tribes and Bantu-speaking populations from eastern or southeastern Africa; we dated this event to ∼300 years ago during the Omani Empire domination. Levels of parental relatedness, measured through runs of homozygosity, were found to be similar across Pakistani populations, suggesting that the Makranis rapidly adopted the traditional practice of endogamous marriages. Finally, we searched for signatures of post-admixture selection at traits evolving under positive selection, including skin color, lactase persistence, and resistance to malaria. We demonstrate that the African-specific Duffy-null blood group—believed to confer resistance against Plasmodium vivax infection—was recently introduced to Pakistan through the slave trade and evolved adaptively in this P. vivax malaria-endemic region. Our study reconstructs the genetic and adaptive history of a neglected episode of the African Diaspora and illustrates the impact of recent admixture on the diffusion of adaptive traits across human populations.
populations who were enslaved for the Indian Ocean slave trade. From the 8th to the 19th centuries, about four million people were captured from the shores of eastern Africa by Arab Muslim and Swahili traders. It has been suggested that slaves transported before the 16th century originated from the Horn of Africa, i.e., Nilotic or Afro-Asiatic speakers from present-day Ethiopia, whereas most Africans enslaved from the 18th century onward were Zanj,8 i.e., Bantu speakers of southeastern Africa. Indeed, the Omani Empire progressively imposed their domination on the Swahili coast and Zanzibar in this time period, leading to an intensified slave trade from these regions
It is also important to highlight that we detected unexpectedly low African ancestry in the Makranis (17%) in relation to that estimated in the African-descent Siddis from India (>60%).12 Two hypotheses can be put forward to explain this finding: the number of African slaves transported to present-day Pakistan might have been lower than that transported to India, or genetic isolation of African slaves (i.e., segregation) might have been stronger in India than in Pakistan, where co-habitation and intermarriages with slaves were commonly practiced. Consistently with the latter scenario, historical records suggest that female slaves had more chances to intermix with local South Asian populations than male slaves,26 and genetic analyses suggest that the majority of African slaves who contributed to the gene pool of present-day Pakistanis through admixture were females, whereas those admixing in India were primarily males.12, 14 Indeed, the estimated African ancestry of the Makranis from their mitochondrial genome (40%) is three times that obtained from the Y chromosome (12%), whereas it is only one-third in the Siddis (24% from mtDNA versus 70% from Y chromosome).
________________________________
wiki:
Zanzibar was once East Africa's main slave-trading port, and under Omani Arabs in the 19th century as many as 50,000 slaves were passing through the city each year.
Towns and ports involved in the slave trade
North Africa: Tangier (Morocco) Marrakesh (Morocco) Algiers (Algeria) Tripoli (Libya) Cairo (Egypt) Aswan (Egypt)
Arabian Peninsula: Jeddah (Saudi Arabia) Zabīd (Yemen) Muscat (Oman) Aden (Yemen) Socotra (Indian Ocean)
Indian Ocean: Debal (Sindh, Pakistan) Karachi (Sindh, Pakistan) Janjira (India) Surat (India) Mandvi, Kutch (India)
_____________________________________
xyyman, let's suppose the East Slave trade is a fabrication, it never happened
If we look at the Makrani region it's primarily DNA common to other parts of Pakistan but there is also some significant African lineages, YDNA B-M60 and mtDNA L and a little M1
What is your explanation for that?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
The Chart Above proves the Makrani as being slaves is a fabrication.
We have also this. Anywhere black people are observed in the ancient civilizations…it is explained away as slaves. Autosomally the Makrani are NOT related to modern East Africans. I am beginning to believe this afro-centric early mycenaean conference thing. We know Europeans are delusional and liars!!!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] xyyman, let's suppose the East Slave trade is a fabrication, it never happened
If we look at the Makrani region it's primarily DNA common to other parts of Pakistan but there is also some significant African lineages, YDNA B-M60 and mtDNA L and a little M1
What is your explanation for that?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: the Makrani are NOT related to modern East Africans.
do you have a source on that or did you just make it up?
How could they carry L2a1b1a and B-M60 and not be related to modern Africans?
are you drunk? Why are you trying to remove the the African presence in the Makrani?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
You need to understand what you are looking at .
The Makrani are not really related to extant Africans. Makrani regardless of what you see on TV or what Eurocentric researchers spin, are NOT related to modern East Africans.
Makrani are part of the Early Neolithic Package…. See their light blue component ? They are Related to Iranian/Persian Neolithics. When the Harrapan DNA is revealed they WILL be related to the Indus Valley Civilizers!!!! Mark my words…again! Oh! You see that the red component(YRI?) was already in the Persian Neolithics BEFORE the Abusir emerged from Africa. That is how I know Schuenemann et al is LYING and Spinning and twisting the results.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: the Makrani are NOT related to modern East Africans.
do you have a source on that or did you just make it up?
How could they carry L2a1b1a and B-M60 and not be related to modern Africans?
are you drunk? Why are you trying to remove the the African presence in the Makrani?
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
That chart shows that...Makrani are EURASIANS!!! Not all Negroes are Negro's lol!
Same as Onge. They are very ANCIENT Eurasians. Onge do NOT have the East Neolithic light blue or even brown.
That is why we cannot use our "eyeballs' to draw relatedness or inference.
There is no such thing as race! Yes, there are "white" Africans just as there are black Eurasians.
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Isn't the issue with "eyeballing" something the lack of unbiased proof?because looking at similar things on the surface would raise questions of sameness or a random occurrence but the problems from what I gathered here and on other sites is Whites created scenarios to explain similar looking groups or imply some racial specific reason how certain looking people wound up in a given region.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] That chart shows that...Makrani are EURASIANS!!! Not all Negroes are Negro's lol!
So they're some kind of Hamites now? Where do you get your information March of the Titans?
Stop trying to remove the African presence form the Makranis.
You must have them confused with the Andamese.
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
" .if I understand the hypothesis correctly ......Indonesian women took their 4ft Canoes, loaded it with plants and animals and decided to travel 4000miles of open Ocean to get some black love and hook up with black men. HA! HA! HA! Lol! Only Europeans can come up with such a nonsensical hypothesis. And only stupid black people would believe it.
------------------- Quote Genomic landscape of human diversity across Madagascar - Denis Pierrona
"Overall, Y chromosome lineages of African origin are much more frequent in Madagascar than are lineages of East Asian origin (70.7 vs. 20.7%), in contrast to the mtDNA lineages (42.4 African origin vs. 50.1% East Asian origin) (Fig. 2B and Fig. S1). Other Y chromosome lineages with uncertain origins are also present; some of these (R1a, J2, T1, G2) are also present in the Middle East and may reflect the Muslim influence on Madagascar and the Comoros (23, 24). Haplogroup R1b, characteristic of western Europeans, is present in low frequency (0.9%), suggesting a limited paternal contribution from western Europeans." ---------------------
I would like to get my hands on the dataset to look at the R1a and R1b and T1(Ethiopian?). What do you think ElMaestro? Where is the dataset? I couldn't find it. It went Vuuusssh!!! Gone!
edit: So it was "NOT" Indonesian men making the trip it was Indonesian women!!! SMH! WT....F! "xyyman -
xyyman, my guess is that a boatload or shipload of women from Borneo were recruited/contracted/sold to rich Arabs/Muslims to be wives/maids/concubines (like today's Philipinas) and were on the way when the monsoon winds/typhoon blew them off-course to Madagascar. They would have had sufficient food supplies to last a short while which they could have planted, familiar with rainforest survival & rice agriculture, but may have only been accompanied by a few men: crew, guards, merchant, some of whom may have been from Zanzibar, Oman, etc.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] That chart shows that...Makrani are EURASIANS!!! Not all Negroes are Negro's lol!
Stop trying to remove the African presence form the Makranis.
You must have them confused with the Andamese. [/Q]
I don’t have to “remove” African presence from the Makranis!!! Lol! Because they are not Africans. They are Eurasian just as Onge and Andamans and Oceanians and Melenians and Paupans and La Brana and Loschbour and Cheddar man etc etc etc
Makrani vs Luxmanda
LuxManda 3000 year old African carrying Eurasian ancestry but African haplogroup …wait!….wait!..wai!t..wait!…..that is Makrani! I am getting confused. HE! HE! HE! Name your poison Lionesss HA! HA! HA! Europeans are Liars!
The problem is some of you people don’t know what you are looking at.
Which is more African Luxmanda or Makrani ? or spun differently …which is more “Eurasian”?…some would say Makrani since they carry MORE Eurasian ancestry. I will let you in on a little secret….ssshhh! Don’t tell anyone! STR profile of Luxmanda will show it is African while Makrani will be undoubtedly be Indian. HA! HA!
JUST AS THE ABUSIR WILL BE DEFINITELY AFRICAN BASED UPON STR!!!!
Understand their game.
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
In short it was always essentially a South to North migration from Africa to Eurasia. From the very beginning with Neanderthal right up to the Neolithics…even today with North Africans fleeing to Europe.
First the Paleolithics migrated out who were essentially Oceanians type Africans. Then the Neolithics from the mouth of the Great Lakes(Malawi/Tanzania). I am trying to determine whether the Oceania type first emerged from East Africa like the Neolithics. Reading Dart….Thanks DDEden. The evidence is point to Oceanians types first merged from Southern Africa. That is why Hoffmyer(South Africa) seems morphologically related to Paleolithic Europeans.
Reading Shriner et al new paper as the Supp show Nordic Genetics elements exist in West Africa(Iwo-Eleru?).
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
“my guess is that a boatload or shipload of women from Borneo were recruited/contracted/sold to rich Arabs/Muslims to be wives/maids/concubines (like today's Philipinas) and were on the way when the monsoon winds/typhoon blew them off-course to Madagascar. They would have had sufficient food supplies to last a short while which they could have planted, familiar with rainforest survival & rice agriculture, but may have only been accompanied by a few men: crew, guards, merchant, some of whom may have been from Zanzibar, Oman, etc.”
DDeDEN are you white? I have no problem with color of the skin. Don’t get me wrong but only white people can make a far-fetched BS story like that. So how many time did the storm occur again? If I were the Arab slavers I would after the second trip I would give it up…Allah is not cooperating lol! He needs to keep those winds in check. He! HE! SMH
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] That chart shows that...Makrani are EURASIANS!!! Not all Negroes are Negro's lol!
Stop trying to remove the African presence form the Makranis.
You must have them confused with the Andamese. [/Q]
I don’t have to “remove” African presence from the Makranis!!! Lol! Because they are not Africans. They are Eurasian just as Onge and Andamans and Oceanians and Melenians and Paupans and La Brana and Loschbour and Cheddar man etc etc etc
Makrani region carry mtDNA L and M1 28% ( 40% according to a different article) and 12% African YDNA primarily B-M60
the genetic evidence is irrefutably there So please stop your ridiculous lies
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
@DDeDEN. I know Madagascar has a special place for you but the data emerging do NOT support that wild claim about Indonesians women rowed 4000 miles across the Indian Ocean because they love black men. The data is more consistent with Madagascar being an isolated remnant of the African-East Asian diversification just as Cape Verde is an isolated remnant of European and African divergence. Cape Verdeans has more black people with light/blues eyes than all of white Portugal!!!!! Shriver et al and Beleza et al clearly made it a FACT the phenotype of Cape Verdeans cannot be accounted for by colonial inter-relationship. Cape Verdeans are remnants of La Brana and Early Neolithics. This will be disclosed soon. I told Capra this. I am batting 100 as of today. I see through the lies by Europeans!
IT IS NOT WHAT THEY SAY IS WHAT THEY DON’T TELL YOU IN THESE REPORTS!!! UNDERSTAND THEIR TRICKS.
That recent paper by Danny Shriner is a good example. He used the word “Characterized” lol! SMH. He was being slick! He avoided using "origin" because he knew it was a straight-up lie! So he went down the middle. Pleasing both Eurocentric and the “Truth” at the same time. Cowardly waffler!! Lol!
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
As I tell the young ones…”If you have nothing to say or worthwhile to contribute” then shut up!
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [QB] That chart shows that...Makrani are EURASIANS!!! Not all Negroes are Negro's lol!
Stop trying to remove the African presence form the Makranis.
You must have them confused with the Andamese. [/Q]
I don’t have to “remove” African presence from the Makranis!!! Lol! Because they are not Africans. They are Eurasian just as Onge and Andamans and Oceanians and Melenians and Paupans and La Brana and Loschbour and Cheddar man etc etc etc
Makrani region carry mtDNA L and M1 28% ( 40% according to a different article) and 12% African YDNA primarily B-M60
the genetic evidence is irrefutably there So please stop your ridiculous lies
Posted by xyyman (Member # 13597) on :
Sometimes it is a good idea to follow-up when Lioness post. Why? Lioness do not understand what he post or do not READ what he post. So by Lioness own admission the Makrani are really 70% Eurasian. Black men and their “Eurasian” Women. First it was the Indonesians rowing canoes 4000miles of open Ocean to meet black love now we have Indian women gravitating to these African men. Why is that? Jungle fever?
By Lioness -------------------------- Genetic characterization of the Makrani people of Pakistan from mitochondrial DNA control-region data. - Siddiqi MH1,
Abstract To estimate genetic and forensic parameters, the entire mitochondrial DNA control region of 100 unrelated Makrani individuals (males, n=96; females, n=4) living in Pakistan (Turbat, Panjgur, Awaran, Kharan, Nasirabad, Gwadar, Buleda, Karachi and Burewala) was sequenced. We observed a total of 70 different haplotypes of which 54 were unique and 16 were shared by more than one individual. The Makrani population showed a high genetic diversity (0.9688) and, consequently, a high power of discrimination (0.9592). Our results revealed a strongly admixed mtDNA pool composed of African haplogroups (28%), West Eurasian haplogroups (26%), South Asian haplogroups (24%), and East Asian haplogroups (2%), while the origin of the remaining individuals (20%) could not be confidently assigned. The results of this study are a valuable contribution to build a database of mtDNA variation in Pakistan. --------------
Posted by beyoku (Member # 14524) on :
Where is the documentation showing Makrani were Africans?
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
There isn't any,that was thing Said by whites because some look like Africans mixed with south Asians plus th siddis who look like Bantu speakers live in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by beyoku: Where is the documentation showing Makrani were Africans?
Who said they were Africans?
They are primarily Pakistani with some African ancestry and this is documented in the article I posted which tested their DNA and proved it.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: So by Lioness own admission the Makrani are really 70% Eurasian.
yes, now you are getting it
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Thereal: There isn't any,that was thing Said by whites because some look like Africans mixed with south Asians plus th siddis who look like Bantu speakers live in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka.
No that is nonsense. The Siddi are not like the very African looking and highly isolated Andamese Islanders who are all mtDNA M31 and M32 which is not found anywhere else and YDNA Haplogroup D*.
The Siddis on the other hand have high frequenices of the E1b1a and B-M60 as well as Near Eastern ancestry
E1b1a and B-M60, that is African DNA.
I don't know why you are on this mission to de-Africanize them.
I have already posted text on the historical context The African Diaspora in the Indian Ocean World
I don't know why people have to keep living in a state of fantasy
I remember in the 90s and early 2000s Afrocentrics were doing a lot of referencing to the post traumatic syndromes caused by slavery and reparations due and visiting the Castles of Ghana
But now people get educated on the internet and many people have done a 180 trying to deny their Africaness and claim they are primarily Aboriginal to America, not just "part Cherokee" and the slave trade was a hoax. The same sort of denial here with the Siddis and Makrani
The Makrani have African admixture Y and mtDNA that is modern African Why are we even continuing to discuss this?
It's just this new trend in emotion based historical revisionism. Let's try to manipulate everything not to have to ever look at slavery and then come up with feel-good fantasy scenarios.
When not at least go half way and admit to the African ancestry and at least just manipulate less by saying they were all immigrant tradesman not slaves (although some may have not been slaves) Why must people go to bizarre lengths of denial ?
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: “my guess is that a boatload or shipload of women from Borneo were recruited/contracted/sold to rich Arabs/Muslims to be wives/maids/concubines (like today's Philipinas) and were on the way when the monsoon winds/typhoon blew them off-course to Madagascar. They would have had sufficient food supplies to last a short while which they could have planted, familiar with rainforest survival & rice agriculture, but may have only been accompanied by a few men: crew, guards, merchant, some of whom may have been from Zanzibar, Oman, etc.”
DDeDEN are you white? I have no problem with color of the skin. Don’t get me wrong but only white people can make a far-fetched BS story like that. So how many time did the storm occur again? If I were the Arab slavers I would after the second trip I would give it up…Allah is not cooperating lol! He needs to keep those winds in check. He! HE! SMH
xyyman, you asked. I'm off-white, a bit crispy down here at the beach. There were HUGE numbers of boats lost, so my claim is very plausible per my understanding. But you've got different ideas based on your understanding. No problemo.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: “my guess is that a boatload or shipload of women from Borneo were recruited/contracted/sold to rich Arabs/Muslims to be wives/maids/concubines (like today's Philipinas) and were on the way when the monsoon winds/typhoon blew them off-course to Madagascar. They would have had sufficient food supplies to last a short while which they could have planted, familiar with rainforest survival & rice agriculture, but may have only been accompanied by a few men: crew, guards, merchant, some of whom may have been from Zanzibar, Oman, etc.”
DDeDEN are you white? I have no problem with color of the skin. Don’t get me wrong but only white people can make a far-fetched BS story like that. So how many time did the storm occur again? If I were the Arab slavers I would after the second trip I would give it up…Allah is not cooperating lol! He needs to keep those winds in check. He! HE! SMH
xyyman, you asked. I'm off-white, a bit crispy down here at the beach. There were HUGE numbers of boats lost, so my claim is very plausible per my understanding. But you've got different ideas based on your understanding. No problemo.
You don't have to come up with clever stories to try to support a fantasy
Zanzibar was once East Africa's main slave-trading port, and under Omani Arabs in the 19th century as many as 50,000 slaves were passing through the city each year.
People like xyyman are willfully ignorant of history because he is trying to construct a revisionist fantasy and don't want to be bothered by reading history
In contrast to the Atlantic slave trade, where the male-female ratio was 2:1 or 3:1, the Arab slave trade instead usually had a higher female-to-male ratio. This suggests a general preference for female slaves. Concubinage and reproduction served as incentives for importing female slaves (often Caucasian), though many were also imported mainly for performing household tasks.
Elikia M'bokolo, wrote in Le Monde diplomatique. "The African continent was bled of its human resources via all possible routes. Across the Sahara, through the Red Sea, from the Indian Ocean ports and across the Atlantic. At least ten centuries of slavery for the benefit of the Muslim countries (from the ninth to the nineteenth)." He continues: "Four million slaves exported via the Red Sea, another four million through the Swahili ports of the Indian Ocean, perhaps as many as nine million along the trans-Saharan caravan route, and eleven to twenty million (depending on the author) across the Atlantic Ocean"
Posted by DD'eDeN (Member # 21966) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by DD'eDeN:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: “my guess is that a boatload or shipload of women from Borneo were recruited/contracted/sold to rich Arabs/Muslims to be wives/maids/concubines (like today's Philipinas) and were on the way when the monsoon winds/typhoon blew them off-course to Madagascar. They would have had sufficient food supplies to last a short while which they could have planted, familiar with rainforest survival & rice agriculture, but may have only been accompanied by a few men: crew, guards, merchant, some of whom may have been from Zanzibar, Oman, etc.”
DDeDEN are you white? I have no problem with color of the skin. Don’t get me wrong but only white people can make a far-fetched BS story like that. So how many time did the storm occur again? If I were the Arab slavers I would after the second trip I would give it up…Allah is not cooperating lol! He needs to keep those winds in check. He! HE! SMH
xyyman, you asked. I'm off-white, a bit crispy down here at the beach. There were HUGE numbers of boats lost, so my claim is very plausible per my understanding. But you've got different ideas based on your understanding. No problemo.
You don't have to come up with clever stories to try to support a fantasy
Zanzibar was once East Africa's main slave-trading port, and under Omani Arabs in the 19th century as many as 50,000 slaves were passing through the city each year.
People like xyyman are willfully ignorant of history because he is trying to construct a revisionist fantasy and don't want to be bothered by reading history
In contrast to the Atlantic slave trade, where the male-female ratio was 2:1 or 3:1, the Arab slave trade instead usually had a higher female-to-male ratio. This suggests a general preference for female slaves. Concubinage and reproduction served as incentives for importing female slaves (often Caucasian), though many were also imported mainly for performing household tasks.
Elikia M'bokolo, wrote in Le Monde diplomatique. "The African continent was bled of its human resources via all possible routes. Across the Sahara, through the Red Sea, from the Indian Ocean ports and across the Atlantic. At least ten centuries of slavery for the benefit of the Muslim countries (from the ninth to the nineteenth)." He continues: "Four million slaves exported via the Red Sea, another four million through the Swahili ports of the Indian Ocean, perhaps as many as nine million along the trans-Saharan caravan route, and eleven to twenty million (depending on the author) across the Atlantic Ocean"
Thanks the lioness, I agree with that. But xyyman spoke of Borneo, not generally thought of as a source of slaves ( unlike the 'blackbirding' of Papua & Easter Island). I recall very dimly a story of some Malasian women who took a boat to an island where they were promised some rewards, in the 19th C. I don't recall the details, I presume it was an enticing offer, as they did leave.
Beyond that, I am willing to view xyyman's claims as plausible, except the 'land bridge', which defies geology (excluding Sunday & Sahul tectonic plate emergences.
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Also interesting is that the light blue component is found at 60% in Makrani. This frequency is shared with Adygei and Kalash. Two populations that is an anomaly in "Asia". Makrani has pink component also.
Makrani are NOT SSA slaves!!!
Keep in mind this is a "supervised" Cluster Chart! Meaning the SNPs were deliberately chosen by the researchers but nevertheless the information obtained is fascinating.
The slave talk has been a narrative they tried to play, to down play the ancient presence by these people. White suprematist love to change rules to put things in their favor. One important thing we need to learn from white suprematist behavior is, they are very detriment. They only stop when they get shut down.
quote: Among other groups, the Negroes and Baluch mulattoes of Baluchistan, which now forms part of West Pakistan, are of great interest to students of race and ethnic relations. Negroes in West Pakistan are called Makranis.
[...]
Professor S. K. Chatterji, the Indian linguist, discussing the basic unity underlying the diversity of culture in India, also supports this view. According to him, "the first people to arrive in India were a Negrito or Negroid race from Africa, coming at a very early period by way of Arabia and the coastline of Iran. They spread over western and southern India, and even passed on to the northeastern part of the country . . .
Makranis, the Negroes of West Pakistan John B. Edlefsen, Khalida Shah and Mohsin Farooq Phylon (1960-) Vol. 21, No. 2 (2nd Qtr., 1960), pp. 124-130 Published by: Clark Atlanta University DOI: 10.2307/274335 Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/274335 Page Count: 7
quote:However, as for M1, minor N North-African influences have been detected by the presence of an U6 lineage in our Saudi sample. It has been suggested that the rare U9 clade might be another interesting exception because it has been detected only in Pakistan [26], Ethiopia, and Yemen [19], and now in our Saudi sample. U9 occurs frequently only among the Makrani population in Pakistan, which is characterized by a large component of sub-Saharan African lineages, suggesting that U9 lineages in Pakistan might also have an African origin [19]. Makrani sub-Saharan Africa lineages have exact matches in Africa, which is compatible with a recent conection as the result of the East African slave trade [26]. However, the entire sequenced Ethiopian and Pakistani U9 lineages [37] are separated by a mean of 4.5 coding mutations from the common root, placing the split at Paleolithic times. Most probably, Ethiopia received its U9 lineages from the Arabian Peninsula that, in turn, received them from northern areas. The southern geographic distribution of U9 contrasts with the west-northern distribution U4, of its sister clade [52], but this is a pattern shared with other Paleolithic U radiations such as U2, U7 [32], or U8 [53] that have eastern and western branches. [54].
--Kivisild et al
quote:"A potential issue that could in theory influence our findings is that the exact population contributing to African ancestry in West Eurasians is unknown. To gain insight into the African source populations, we carried out PCA analyses, which suggested that the African ancestry in West Eurasians is at least as closely related to East Africans (e.g. Hapmap3 Luhya (LWK)) as to West Africans (e.g. Nigerian Yoruba (YRI)) (the same analyses show that there is no evidence of relatedness to Chadic populations like Bulala) (Text S5 and Figure S12).
We also used the 4 Population Test to assess whether the tree ((LWK, YRI),(West Eurasian, CEU)) is consistent with the data, and found no evidence for a violation,
which is consistent with a mixture of either West African or East African ancestors or both contributing to the African ancestry in West Eurasians (Table S14; Figure S13). Historically, a mixture of West and East African ancestry is plausible, since African gene flow into West Eurasia is documented from both West Africa during Roman times [34] and from East Africa during migrations from Egypt [7]. It is important to point out, however, that the difficulty of pinpointing the exact African source population is not expected to bias our inferences about the total proportion and date of mixture. The f4 Ancestry Estimation method is unbiased even when we use a poor surrogates for the true ancestral African population (as long as the phylogeny is correct), as we confirmed by repeating analyses replacing YRI with LWK, and obtaining similar results (Table S15).Our ROLLOFF admixture date estimates are also similar whether we use LWK or YRI to represent ancestral African population (Table S15), as predicted by the theory.
--Moorjani et al.
quote: “Haplogroup L2a1 was found in two specimens from the Southern Levant Pre-Pottery Neolithic B site at Tell Halula, Syria, dating from the period between ca. 9600 and ca. 8000 BP or 7500-6000 BCE”
~Fernández, E. et al., MtDNA analysis of ancient samples from Castellón (Spain): Diachronic variation and genetic relationships, International Congress Series, vol. 1288 (April 2006), pp. 127-129.
quote: "These results indicate that the ancestor of all Semitic languages in our dataset was being spoken in the Near East no earlier than approximately 7400 YBP, after having after having diverged from Afroasiatic in Africa"
(i) Semitic had an Early Bronze Age origin (approx. 5750 YBP) in the Levant, followed by an expansion of Akkadian into Mesopotamia;
(ii) Central and South Semitic diverged earlier than previously thought throughout the Levant during the Early to Middle Bronze Age transition; and
(iii) Ethiosemitic arose as the result of a single, possibly pre-Aksumite, introduction of a lineage from southern Arabia to the Horn of Africa approximately 2800 YBP.
Genomic Diversity: Applications in Human Population Genetics (1999, 2012)
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fourty2Tribes: ^^ Why is B-M60 described as an archaic haplogroup when it post dates modern homo-sapiens by more than 100K years?
Because they are liars, that’s why.
It takes logic to see B-M60 predates that given time period. B closely relates to A. So logically it has to predate 100 Kya.
Haplogroup BT is already 70Kya old. And Haplogroup B (B-M60) is primary to BT, so by default Haplogroup B (B-M60) is older than 70Kya. Hg A exceeds 100Kya by far.
For a person / any person to ask you for evidence means they are just trolling and don’t understand what they’re talking about. It’s basically waste of time and energy conversing with them.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Help. I must be trapped in a timespace warp.
Baluch Makrani confused for India Siddi?
No relation from old Sumer?
No Asian indiginee blacks?
Only negroes from Africa imported as slaves since Islam?
Posted by Ish Gebor (Member # 18264) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler: Help. I must be trapped in a timespace warp.
Baluch Makrani confused for India Siddi?
No relation from old Sumer?
No Asian indiginee blacks?
Only negroes from Africa imported as slaves since Islam?
The history of the Akkadians is very interesting and revealing. And yes, some folk with post whatever to discredit the contributions of these black people in that region. Again, once you’ve truly read the history of the Akkadians it all falls in place.
Posted by Fourty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
I can't ken how a report dated 2020 can exclude Malawi aDNA, particularly the 8000 yr old baby girl of Mt Hora. What is it Krause and them and all recent article authors are so afraid of that they act like she don't exist?
Hey, if I'm being clueless here then gimme some.
Seeing that Tanzania_Pemba_700BP is present in an 8200 year old individual --in independent work that's unrestricted by PCA methodology-- bar graphing 'whole' genomes seems to make a lie of
quote: if admixture between ancestors of Bantu-speaking and eastern African herder populations had occurred before input of southern hunter-gatherer ancestry in southern Africa, then these signatures would be apparent in other regions, but, so far, early arrivals of Bantu speakers in nearby Malawi do not carry this eastern African component (3). Rather, in the most parsimonious model, initial popula-tion mixture occurred between groups related to South_Africa_2000BP and eastern African pastoralists (with South_Africa_1200BP being a descendant of that initial mixture). Bantu speakers arriving in southern Africa then mixed with this population giving rise to the individuals from Xaro analyzed here. No present-day population sam-pled so far has the same ancestry mix as the two Xaro individuals (as visible from the PCA; Fig. 2). While further sampling may still reveal such a population in the future, so far, this suggests that this popu-lation was later replaced by unadmixed Bantu-speaking populations, as inhabit the region today
San, 'Khoe', Bantu, Nuer, and even Atlantic ancestries are already evident this far south in Africa in the early/middle Holocene cusp. Note Tanzania_Pemba_700BP is the majority or plurality ancestry in southern Bantu speakers. East Africa's Bantu speakers' ancestry is younger by 3000 years. It's earliest showing so far is Malawi_Chencherere_5200BP. That coincides with Sahra desertification. Southern African Bantu speakers' ancestry is when Sahra was full of lakes, rivers, etc. Both are well before the Euro proposed Bantu Demic Expansion from the Bight of Biafra that African scholarship dismisses out of hand.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
Stephen Oppenheimer, The Real Eve: Modern Man’s Journey out of Africa (New York, N.Y.: Carroll & Graf, 2004)
quote:
What of other peoples who may be genetically closer to Africans as a result of their position on the old beachcombing trail — what can comparing the frequencies of retention of ancestral gene types in African and non-African peoples tell us? Two regions stand out. The closest (along with Australians and New Guineans) are those in Pakistan and the southern Arabian peninsula . . The root position of Pakistanis and southern Arabians in retaining ancient African genetic diversity is certainly what we would expect from our proposed southern route out of Africa, and there are other pieces of evidence to support this. Along the south coast of Arabia are the isolated Hadramaut peoples, described by some as Australoid. Their maternal genetic make-up includes 40 percent of African genetic lines. . . . Farther along the Indian Ocean coast the peninsular Indian populations also group genetically closer to the African root than do more easterly Asian peoples. Indian ethnic groups, both caste and tribal, were included in a large study of nuclear autosomal (non-sex-linked) markers. They were found to retain a higher rate of the african ancestral types than do Europeans and other Asian groups. There are other signs that the ancient African genetic diversity has been preserved in Pakistan. While the population of Pakistan in general shares some ancient mtDNA links with India, Europe and the Middle East, they also possess unique markers that are found nowhere else outside Africa. There are indeed populations that hark back to that ancient connection. One aboriginal so-called Negrito group, the Makrani, found at the mouth of the Indus and along the Baluchistan sea coast of Pakistan, have an African Y-chromosome marker previously only found in Africa that is characteristic of sub-Saharan Africa. The same marker, though, is found at slightly lower frequencies throughout other populations of southern Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates, and at higher rates in Iran. Another unique Y-chromosome marker appears outside Africa only in this region. One other ancient Y-chromosome marker points specifically to Pakistan as an early source and parting of the ways. This is an early branch off the Out-of-Africa Adam that is present at high frequency in Pakistan and at lower frequencies only in India (especially in tribal groups) and further north in the Middle East, Kashmir, Central Asia, and Siberia. The fact that this marker is not found farther east in Asia suggests that the only way it could have arrived in Central Asia was by a direct early northern spread up the Indus to Kashmir and farther north
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
From Pille Hallast et al. 2020: A Southeast Asian origin for present-day non-African human Y chromosomes Abstract The genomes of present-day humans outside Africa originated almost entirely from a single out-migration ~ 50,000–70,000 years ago, followed by mixture with Neanderthals contributing ~ 2% to all non-Africans. However, the details of this initial migration remain poorly understood because no ancient DNA analyses are available from this key time period, and interpretation of present-day autosomal data is complicated due to subsequent population movements/reshaping. One locus, however, does retain male-specific information from this early period: the Y chromosome, where a detailed calibrated phylogeny has been constructed. Three present-day Y lineages were carried by the initial migration: the rare haplogroup D, the moderately rare C, and the very common FT lineage which now dominates most non-African populations. Here, we show that phylogenetic analyses of haplogroup C, D and FT sequences, including very rare deep-rooting lineages, together with phylogeographic analyses of ancient and present-day non-African Y chromosomes, all point to East/Southeast Asia as the origin 50,000–55,000 years ago of all known surviving non-African male lineages (apart from recent migrants). This observation contrasts with the expectation of a West Eurasian origin predicted by a simple model of expansion from a source near Africa, and can be interpreted as resulting from extensive genetic drift in the initial population or replacement of early western Y lineages from the east, thus informing and constraining models of the initial expansion...
Results and Discussion ..How then can the present-day Y-chromosomal phylogeography be reconciled with an out-of-Africa expansion? It is well established that all known present-day Y-chromosomal lineages trace back to Africa at some point in human history (Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2017), but the current work demonstrates that the deepest rooting C, D and FT lineages now seen outside Africa are found in East/Southeast Asia. Without support from additional ancient DNA samples, it is difficult to make claims about the geographic origins of these deep-rooting lineages; however, this difficulty does not change the observation about their current location. The default explanation for the observed patterns is perhaps that the initial divergences within the Y-chromosomal phylogeny did indeed occur in the west, but that the deepest rooting lineages have now been lost from this part of the world, consistent with the lack of genetic continuity in West Eurasia seen in autosomal aDNA and the presence of Y haplogroup C lineages in West Eurasia until ~ 8000 years ago (Mathieson et al. 2018). In principle, this could be because C, D and F lineages all migrated east, together with some GHIJK lineages, leaving only GHIJK lineages in the west; or more plausibly that C, D and F were lost by genetic drift in the west, but not in the east. The first scenario would imply unprecedented levels of male-structured migration, and would be difficult to reconcile with subsequent divergences within GHIJK during the next few thousand years, whereby some of the descendent lineages such as G1, H1 and H3 would also need to have migrated east in a male-structured way. The second scenario is not easy to reconcile in a simple way with the inference that genetic effective population sizes have been lower in East Asia than in Europe (Gutenkunst et al. 2009; Kelleher et al. 2019), so less genetic drift is expected in the west. Further explanations should, therefore, also be considered; one such is that initial western Y chromosomes have been entirely replaced by lineages from further east (Fig. 3), perhaps on more than one occasion. This is supported by the observed patterns of early-diverging lineages of C, D and FT now being located in East and Southeast Asia, and, according to our present-day dataset of surviving lineages, the more likely origin of GHIJK in the east (Fig. 1). Formally, another explanation could be that selection has acted, for example, to favour the FT lineage to different extents in different regions, but positive natural selection has not been documented on the human Y chromosome (Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2017) and there are no candidate coding variants reported among annotated protein-coding genes (Poznik et al. 2016), so this seems unlikely. Nevertheless, the possible explanations for observed patterns cannot be reliably differentiated at present. Until aDNA data earlier than 45,000 years ago are available, future studies using spatial simulations with models that are able to adequately capture the complexity of the human past may help to explain the observed patterns in the present-day human Y-chromosomal data...
I've always wondered why West Eurasians carry no C and very little D in eastern Arabia, but are dominated by downstream subclades of F (H, G, IJK) while F proper has its highest diversity and concentration in India. While most scholars are so focused on back-migrations of West Eurasians into Africa, not many have paid attention to the probability of East-Eurasian back-migration into West Eurasia.
This also explains the autosomal presence of Eastern Non-Africans in Europe and areas of West Asia.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval. --Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007
People forget that hg CF is NOT the same as hg C. The former is ancestral to the latter. So if C originated in Eurasia, it makes me wonder what other clades descend from CF within Africa. If DE originated in Africa with D being Eurasian while E is African, then why is it not possible that C is Eurasian while F is African or at least something very similar?
Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Haplogroup CF and DE molecular ancestors first evolved inside Africa and subsequently contributed as Y chromosome founders to pioneering migrations that successfully colonized Asia. While not proof, the DE and CF bifurcation (Figure 8d ) is consistent with independent colonization impulses possibly occurring in a short time interval. --Peter A. Underhill , Toomas Kivisild - 2007
People forget that hg CF is NOT the same as hg C. The former is ancestral to the latter. So if C originated in Eurasia, it makes me wonder what other clades descend from CF within Africa. If DE originated in Africa with D being Eurasian while E is African, then why is it not possible that C is Eurasian while F is African or at least something very similar?
CF is different than DO and DE. CF is rare to nonexistent and unlike D, C is found in Africa. We don't have African C but we do have an old Italian C.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ CF is the hypothetical macroclade, but is there any evidence of its existence in Africa today?
and LO is 
looks like 5%.
