First of all - about choosing and loving your friends, do not forget that also your friends have obivously chosen to love you, although and despite you are a muslim. They, although non-muslims or even non-religious people, are thus demonstrating both patience, understanding and love...

Secondly, islamic rules apply only to muslims. What is halal or haram concerns only you, so please follow if wish, but do not demand from us, who we are not subjects of islamic teaching.

Thus, e.g. in my culture and according to my personal beliefs and principles, there is nothing wrong in humour or "lightheartedness". I would even say that people who know to take matters lightly, present no danger to the others. The danger comes from taking things too seriously. If you do not wish be lighthearted, no one tells you be, but eqally please, do not try tell me what I may be or not be. Be understanding of my difference like I am understanding of your difference.

And i would like make on big conclusion by pointing out that the non-religious community if you would please notice and keep in mind, in general make no kind of demands on you, religious peole. We do not tell you follow our rules or be slack in following yours, we do not ask for special respect beyond what we earn (if earn ) with our behaviour, we do not even HAVE so many special rules beyond simple human concern for each other.

It is EASY for you to be with us because we make no other demands than you make on yourself. While it is very DIFFICULT for us to be with you because you constantly demand something: to be this, to behave that, to show the third aso aso. Demands, demands, demands..
..so many demands, so little love.

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Originally posted by smiley:
... so if my friend has decided that he/she is agnostic,.. and no matter what i tell them and tht nothing will make them change.. then I have to ask myself...~do I love my friend!~ do I want them to be around ~if that answer is yes... then I have to show patience and maybe just maybe by showing them that.. they will see the good and change..

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I like your ideas, Smiley...I agree with you whole heartedly and I do feel your genuine honesty to do well by others is conveyed here.

The only part that I find hard to accept is that through patient perseverance, friends (or whoever) will understand the "truth" and change...why would you want your friends to see your example and change, if as you say you already like them as they are? I agree with you that true tolerance can resolve much conflict. However, a desire to convert others regardless of agnostic/religious beliefs (either through words or example) I feel closes enquiry and leads to rigid thinking and labelling (superior/inferior, enlightened/unenlightened etc.) You have more or less said this in your post.

Perhaps I am taking this one comment of yours out of context, but personally I prefer it when people do not think they have the truth and want to change me (especially secretly, lol). The anger I have observed directed at religion (not just Islam) is a often a reaction to what is perceived as religious arrogance in those following a faith believing that they know the ultimate truth (and will patiently wait for this truth to dawn on ‘non believers’ as well). The other aspect is I think the trend has been that people have censored themselves, trying to be “politically correct” when it comes to religion, and there is a backlash against this now…and people are being outspoken perhaps in an aggressive manner (?)

I often wonder if tolerance really is always extended in an unconditional way…I think you have reflected this in your post by more or less saying tolerance is more than just extending yourself to someone in order to teach them truth…I certainly don’t want to miss the main message of your post which I feel is very positive.

If we are all have different beliefs in this forum, does that still make us friends? If so, with friends like these, who needs enemies?

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
Everyone should have the right to believe what he/she wants to believe in but show respect for others and their religious believes - and you will get it in return.

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Yes but even more importantly - let go of demands, please. Every demand is like a thread that starts from your hand and ends with the other person. Every time you demand something, you are trying to pull that other person from that thread of demand. Now what kind of respect is that to behave with people as if they were your marionettes?

Let go of these demand-threads and allow people have their own will instead of jerking along to your will. Otherwise, if you insist on pulling, they will want to pull back.

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Yes but even more importantly - let go of demands, please. Every demand is like a thread that starts from your hand and ends with the other person. Every time you demand something, you are trying to pull that other person from that thread of demand. Now what kind of respect is that to behave with people as if they were your marionettes?

Let go of these demand-threads and allow people have their own will instead of jerking along to your will. Otherwise, if you insist on pulling, they will want to pull back.

Accept that people are different and not all of them love you or cherich you or even know to respect you or maybe, indeed, there is not so much to respect in you (also happens but you can always work on it then). E.g. grown-ups frequently have quite little respect for a child's ideas or positions, and they explain it with that they know so much better, so... it is not so singular really.

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Why? The life is short, the survival takes its share, the competition for the rest of time is really fierce... why would one spend time on a big fat book which as far as we know is either outdated or then batter psychological, medical and political knowledge and advice is available in many other, more concise and more up-to-date books.

Then why? Give a purpose... a value-added... whatever it is one can gain from it.

You muslims are all so uptight about what you know, no wonder then there is so much misunderstanding and no one understand ther might be any value.

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Originally posted by puppy:
Smiley, i come from the family,who have different kind of belief than i..i use to be like them..but after i grow up..i didnt feel the same way..but we never fight about this, it doesnt change our love for each others. We are adults,we can handel this kind of situation..and we are free to make our choises..
And when i marry a muslim man,all my family was shocked..because they didnt know nothing about islam and they was scared that something bad happen to me..but when they saw my husband,they start to like him..very much. We dont talk about religion things..it is not yet time for it..everybody has their own believe and we respect it very much.
Religion is important thing, but sometimes it is just better to be quiet..and keep it as ur private thing..it doesnt matter,when u make friend,what is their belief..
Even my husband is muslim, he agree with me,that if we get a kids,they can choose their religion..they get a father name,but when they are adults ,they are free to choise..
It is most important,that u have belief between u and God.
And u have peace in ur hearth.
Religion is something peaceful, it is not fighting.
And u dont must care,what other people think about u and ur religion, if u are strong person,u dont care..Just be faceful for God.

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Perfect !!!

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Originally posted by Tigerlily:
Smiley, welcome to this board. And unfortunately this situation on ES is more or less always like that. Do you think, you can handle that? I usually stay out of everything what covers politics and religion because I know trouble on this board here is not too far.....

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quote:

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Originally posted by nevermind:
Yes but even more importantly - let go of demands, please. Every demand is like a thread that starts from your hand and ends with the other person. Every time you demand something, you are trying to pull that other person from that thread of demand. Now what kind of respect is that to behave with people as if they were your marionettes?

Let go of these demand-threads and allow people have their own will instead of jerking along to your will. Otherwise, if you insist on pulling, they will want to pull back.

Accept that people are different and not all of them love you or cherich you or even know to respect you or maybe, indeed, there is not so much to respect in you (also happens but you can always work on it then). E.g. grown-ups frequently have quite little respect for a child's ideas or positions, and they explain it with that they know so much better, so... it is not so singular really.

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