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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Grumman: [QB] Strangeways says: [b]''Is He evil, that He wanted the world to be imperfect, or is He simply not mighty enough to create a perfect world?''[/b] Well he obviously isn't mighty enough to create a perfect world, that is, in the traditional understanding of an all knowing creator. This in effect reduces him to nothing more but an ''advanced'' deity who seemingly has no understanding of just what it is he created. This is some of that pot and kettle syndrome. On the evil part Isaiah 45:7 has him taking credit for evil too. By the way this verse is the King James version which isn't as watered down as some of the newer interpretations, e.g. ''I bring bad times'' as opposed to ''I create evil.'' "One of the reasons for men’s creation is that we might honour God by praising Him and doing His will - and I am sure the Koran will agree. [b]If I am being praised, or people do my will, does that honour or dishonour me? It honours me."[/b] If this would mean an adherence to God's will to do something against my conscience, which for purposes of conversation, is supposedly God-given anyway, then why would it be dishonorable if I see no reason to go against my conscience, which is God-given also. Yet my conscience tells me specifically not to accept too much of anything in the Old Testament when it comes to a seemingly all-powerful deity who has the power to create perfection from the beginning, yet doesn't. [b]Kalos[/b] gets around this by saying the Deity doesn't know everything. This avenue places man's misfortunes solely on his own doing while ignoring the creating aspect from God himself; which still is troublesome because we are led to believe we can somehow undo God's creation and invoke man's understanding of what he thinks A deity might want him to do. [b]''Now suppose I pay someone to praise me, or I force him to do so, would it still be an honourable thing?''[/b] Actually He is paying someone to praise him simply because of the promise of everlasting life. And it also spills over into coercion because the alternative to not praising is fire and brimstone. [b]''Or if I had a tape recorder praising me all day, would that be honourable? No.''[/b] Kalos (probably) would say this one wouldn't matter because God may or may not want to ''go down'' to find out what you really think. If God didn't want to go down to find out the truth then the tape recorder would be a legitimate way of praising him. I'm thinking Strangeways would say this would dishonor God because it is a recording and that this somehow makes null and void the expression of ''real'' intent, even though it could very well be real intent, just that it wouldn't be in the here and now kind; kind of like praising by proxy. [b]''The one praising must do so from his own free will and inclination.''[/b] Which is also circular because the ''free will'' comes from God not man. [b]''Suppose I built a robot that could only do what I wanted it to do, and it would do my will and praise me, would that honour me? No, it wouldn’t, because it would not be free.''[/b] It would have been a much more intelligent undertaking to create a robot because this approach would eliminate the need for free will and the apologetics that are necessarily attendent to the explanation of that free will. [b]''Along another track, which is better: a person who is free, or one who is not free to choose his own way?''[/b] Once in heaven is this free will still going to be in operation or will it be 'robots' who are devoid of it. I'm putting my money on the human robots. This way there can be no dissension. I'm thinking the Deity may now realize this after the present fiasco. I'm using my 'free will' to express myself. Am I dishonoring God by using thought processes He instilled in me. [b]''in a perfect world, men would be free to choose between good and evil?''[/b] Even if this is rhetorical it would make no sense to have to choose between these opposing forces in a perfect world. [b]''suppose that for every choice you make, I already decide the outcome. So you may freely decide whether to go to Sévaré or to Douentza, but whichever you chose, I would make you end up in Sévaré. Would that be free? it definitely wouldn’t.''[/b] As a creator the choice has already been determined; it has nothing to do with deciding to go one place or the other. The creator has seen to it at the creation which you will do. [b]''Well, then. The Bible teaches that God created a perfect world, inhabited by angels and men who had a free will, and that one of the angels, the devil, chose the evil way.''[/b] I presume you mean earth when you say world? Or do you mean heaven in this particular case? If you do mean heaven then the plot thickens considerably—and menacingly. [b]''After that, he [the devil] seduced man into choosing against God as well. That made the devil perfectly evil, since he chose against God without any external cause, whereas man only sinned under the stress of seduction, so he is not fully and purely evil.''[/b] Here Strangeways is limiting God so as to make Him incapable of discerning who his creation is, that is, the devil. We have an individual operating outside the bounds of God's creation and taking it upon himself to somehow interfere in a creation that was supposedly intact until the devil comes along, at his choosing, to override God's handling of his own creation. What kind of concept is this ''perfectly evil'' concerning the devil. Kalos may not have trouble with this because he sees God as not all knowing, unless of course he wants him to be. In this view then God can be relieved of guilt in not knowing how the devil came to be who he is. Yet Strangeways seemingly won't limit God in this manner; he continually apologizes (for God) for difficult circumstances. Finally what really is meant by ''no external cause''? Can this be construed to mean there actually can be external causes for the devil to become evil? If so then he did use this external cause because he ''wrecked'' the creation. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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