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Message: HTML is not enabled. UBB Code™ is enabled. UBB Code™ Images not permitted.	[QUOTE]Originally posted by happybunny: [QB] wk quoted: Good people will be good people with or without religion, bad people will be bad people with or without religion. Completely agree Kitty ;) [/QB][/QUOTE]

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Tibe still working Member # 16647	posted Would the world be a better place if we was all godless???
TAREK307 Member # 7838	posted Godless is definitley not better, what would be better is if people practiced their religions correctley, because there is NO RELIGION that says to kill and create havoc and chaos in the world!
Questionmarks Member # 12336	posted With or without God doesn't matter. It are the people who are making a place better or worse. God hasn't a hand in that...
Ayisha Member # 4713	posted people make wars, not religion. People make wars ABOUT religion but they make wars ABOUT other things too. Now if the world was people-less, that would solve the problem
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted If there is no religion, people will find something else to fight about like land, race, sexuality, power, money, or like the Egyptians soccer. I've seen more Ahly/Zamlek fights in Egypt than Muslim/Christian
Ayisha Member # 4713	posted quote: Originally posted by * 7ayat : I've seen more Ahly/Zamlek fights in Egypt than Muslim/Christian* TRUE!!
Kalila : ) Member # 14517	posted I think they already fight about that ZaYaT
Tibe still working Member # 16647	posted quote: Originally posted by TAREK307: Godless is definitley not better, what would be better is if people practiced their religions correctley, because there is NO RELIGION that says to kill and create havoc and chaos in the world! Why?? Is your moral and love towards other only based on the Quran??? Or the fear of going to hell? Are people by nature not capable of behaving with compassion and love???
Tigerlily Member # 3567	posted I am godless and happy. I don't feel missing out on anything!!
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted And let's not forget that World War 2 was started by Hitler, an athiest.
Tigerlily Member # 3567	posted quote: Originally posted by * 7ayat : And let's not forget that World War 2 was started by Hitler, an athiest.* No wrong, he believed he was god's given gift to the German people himself!!
of_gold Member # 13418	posted Hitler was not atheist. He was a professed Christian.
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted of-gold, if you read Hitler's history you will know that he was an athiest. He was born a Christian, and pretended to be a Christian for political reasons but in all of his private conversations which were well documented by people around him, he talked about being a non believer. If you like, I will get my husband, the World War 2 buff to get you some direct quotes from one of the dozens of war books in our wall unit
weirdkitty Member # 15365	posted quote: And let's not forget that World War 2 was started by Hitler, an athiest. He was a Christian, A catholic to be precise (most atheists don’t have something against Jews). Stalin was an atheist, however he killed for communism. quote: because there is NO RELIGION that says to kill and create havoc and chaos in the world! So, are you claiming that NO WHERE in the bible or Quran does it mentioning killing someone, hmmmm? People will always find a reason for war, even using weak excuses that it is a war for peace. Religion has been a reason for many deaths, but so has land. Should we get rid of land because people fight for it? Water world doesn’t really appeal to me quote: Is your moral and love towards other only based on the Quran??? Or the fear of going to hell? Are people by nature not capable of behaving with compassion and love??? Haven’t you heard? Atheists are the route of all evil, we go around causing chaos and kicking puppies! Good people will be good people with or without religion, bad people will be bad people with or without religion.
happybunny Member # 14224	posted wk quoted: Good people will be good people with or without religion, bad people will be bad people with or without religion. Completely agree Kitty
weirdkitty Member # 15365	posted quote: of-gold, if you read Hitler's history you will know that he was an athiest. He was born a Christian, and pretended to be a Christian for political reasons but in all of his private conversations which were well documented by people around him, he talked about being a non believer. “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, to the Nazi Party “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934 “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler (reportedly) Hitler worked closely with the pope, and you don’t have to take my word for it, there are pictures. Hitler’s ideals went hand in hand in many Christian ideals- anti-Semitic, against homosexuals, etc. If Hitler was an atheist, I would not care, I would happily say: “yep, he was an atheist”, I don’t deny for a second Stalin was, because one person doesn’t represent a group. But evidence points to Hitler being a Christian, and I follow that, not later twisted facts. How convenient to claim he “pretended” to be Christian. Fine- Stalin “pretended” to be atheist, lol!
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted Hi Weirdkitty Ok in a book called "Hitler a study in tyranny," written by Alan Bullock, who is considered an authority on Hitler, it was pointed out that Hitler was an athiest. Bullock said, "Hitler a man who believed neither in God nor in consciences which he likened to a Jewish invention, a bleimsh like circumcision." In one quote Hitler says "Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity wouild mean the systematic cultivation of human failure." This was part of the "Hitler Table Talk" excperts. You need to differentiate between what he said in public, which is what most of the quotes you raised were said and what he said in private, which what he really believed. Hitler was an athiest but pretended to be a believer because Germany was a religous country and he wanted to get the support of the church and the people. But he had vowed that once the war is over to uproot the church.
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted Let me just make something clear, I'm not saying that athiests are the cause of evil at all. I was simply trying to explain that its human nature to create wars. And my example of Hitler was just a follow up of my previous examples of race, sexuality or just an Ahly/Zamalek match.
weirdkitty Member # 15365	posted quote: Ok in a book called "Hitler a study in tyranny," written by Alan Bullock, who is considered an authority on Hitler, it was pointed out that Hitler was an athiest. Bullock said, "Hitler a man who believed neither in God nor in consciences which he likened to a Jewish invention, a bleimsh like circumcision." In one quote Hitler says "Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity wouild mean the systematic cultivation of human failure." This was part of the "Hitler Table Talk" excperts. You need to differentiate between what he said in public, which is what most of the quotes you raised were said and what he said in private, which what he really believed. Hitler was an athiest but pretended to be a believer because Germany was a religous country and he wanted to get the support of the church and the people. But he had vowed that once the war is over to uproot the church. So you have one quote, from one book, and because it suits your belief, you will go with it? Many of his private quotes have experts torn about there actual validity, some are known to be completely made up. I am not saying he was a pious Christian who went to church every week. Come the end he was rather anti-Christianity, not because of his beliefs, but because how Christianity was working with Jews. He said what suited his purpose, in public AND in private. Also, having just had a look at your Bullock quote, it turns out that no evidence supporting that claim was presented. We can swap quotes until the cows come home (however I believe I will be able to get a lot more Christian quotes, than you can backing up the atheist claim- note, atheist, not against Christianity, but actually states he does not believe in any higher power). The truth is, even the experts have battled this throughout the years. And lets pretend he was an atheist, there is no denying that a lot of what he preached stemmed very clearly from his Catholic upbringing (and even you don’t deny he was religious when he was younger at the very least). Anyway, I am not saying because Hitler was Christian then all Christian’s are bad, wants to kill jews and start wars. Hitler was clearly a very unique man, with rather disturbing views on the world. He probably wasn’t hugged enough as a kid
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted It suits my belief? What are you on about I'm not having a go at athiests at all. The same way I'm not having a go at people who follow the Ahly or zamalek clubs! Hitler was a manipulative crazy man. He said one thing and believed another. And it's not just one book, it's written by Alan Bullock a man considered an authority on Hitler and who spent years researching his life. Look him up if you want.
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted And when you think of it, it would "suit my belief" more to think of Hitler as a Christian because I'm a Muslim and a little fact like that can help me in my debates, especially when they talked about Muslims like Bin Laden. But the fact is Adolf Hitler was an athiest.
Tibe still working Member # 16647	posted Fact is that religion plays a big role in all wars and international conflicts.
weirdkitty Member # 15365	posted quote: It suits my belief? What are you on about I'm not having a go at athiests at all. The same way I'm not having a go at people who follow the Ahly or zamalek clubs! Hitler was a manipulative crazy man. He said one thing and believed another. And it's not just one book, it's written by Alan Bullock a man considered an authority on Hitler and who spent years researching his life. Look him up if you want. By “suits your belief”- I meant your belief that Hitler was an atheist, not your religious beliefs. And I’m not saying you are trying to have digs at atheists, you can use Stalin for that (you wouldn’t find many atheists denying he was “one of us”). It wouldn’t matter to me if Hitler was an atheist, because it wouldn’t mean anything- Hitler and Stalin both have moustaches, that doesn’t mean they were influenced by of them. I’m merely going on what the majority of the evidence suggests. Bullock still one man, and there are others who disagree, otherwise this wouldn’t even be a question. There are sources that say Hitler hated the Christian church, but there are extremely few sources that say he was an atheist. There is a big difference between the two. An atheist does not believe in any higher beings (be it bible god or other), but Hitler claimed he felt like he was doing the work of a higher power. His hatred to certain groups clearly came from the religious ideals he held as a kid (which he certainly held strongly then, wasn’t he even a choir boy, or something like that?). There are a few people who have spent their lives researching Hitler, and they come up with conflicted evidence. You can pretty much get evidence supported anything, if you ask the right people. However, one person, saying one thing about Hitler being an atheist is extremely weak evidence- especially after having a read around, it seems Bullock later change his stance slightly, and his later works show Hitler to be much more of an ideologue. Sadly, it doesn’t list what these works is called, so that’s a pain. Now who will know Hitler better than Hitler himself? We have a book written by Hitler (Mein Kampf) where he claims very much to have strong religious beliefs. You can claim he wasn’t a Christian, but by his own assertion, again and again in numerous sources, he was a theist (that’s a theist, not atheist lol). Now you can claim his whole book was a lie and written for political advantage, but how do you know the evidence Bullock used was any more truthful?
of_gold Member # 13418	posted quote: Originally posted by * 7ayat *: And when you think of it, it would "suit my belief" more to think of Hitler as a Christian because I'm a Muslim and a little fact like that can help me in my debates, especially when they talked about Muslims like Bin Laden. But the fact is Adolf Hitler was an athiest. ^^^LOL From what I have read Hitler professed publicly that he was Christian. His campaign was even based on it. You know taking the country back from those bad liberals and all. I don't know what he said privately but I do know with all certainty that he was not following the teachings of Jesus. He could of very well claimed to be atheist in private, I don't know. I just don't buy into this idea that one person can tell another person who they are or what they believe. For instance I don't feel I can say that he was not a true Christian when he said that he was. What I can say is that he totally went against the teachings of Jesus, as did W. for that matter. The Bible says that you will know them by their fruit. FACT: Hitler's fruit was killing Jews. There is no way for him to justify his actions by the Bible.
*Dalia* Member # 13012	posted quote: Originally posted by weirdkitty: He probably wasn’t hugged enough as a kid Probably true. Alice Miller has written a whole book on that -- quite interesting. http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html
Questionmarks Member # 12336	posted Not particularly strong believing Christians became uncritical followers of the National Socialism, but correctly searching and straying souls, which found an anchor in the National Socialism in the form of a new religion, with a prosperity message in which Hitler as the new Messiah proclaimed redemption. So, national socialism was a new religion, developed from occult trends in the 19th century.
*Tinker* Member # 16147	posted In answer to original post about God, not Hitler... No, I dont think so, I agree with what some other posters said, if people didn't fight wars over religion then they would find something else. Lets face it 'religious' wars aren't even about religion, they are about greed, ownership and power. Those three things exist without religion, so the same wars would still be fought.
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted quote: Originally posted by Tibe still working: Fact is that religion plays a big role in all wars and international conflicts. The fact is wars are a result of conflicts, conflicts are a result of differences in opinion usually fanatical. These differences of opinion do not have to be about religion at all. If you think that the disappearnace of religion will result in world peace, think again. People will find something else to fight about. Some think that World War 3 will be about water, because of the increasing shortage all over the world. Now where is religion in that?
* 7ayat * Member # 7043	posted quote: Originally posted by Dalia: quote: Originally posted by weirdkitty: He probably wasn’t hugged enough as a kid Probably true. Alice Miller has written a whole book on that -- quite interesting. http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html Some people are born evil though. Jeffrey Dahmer, one of the worst serial killers in history, was raised in a normal happy family. But he became a killer anyway. I reckon Hitler was like that. Read "We need to talk about Kevin," it talks about this stuff and it's creepy as hell!
Questionmarks Member # 12336	posted quote: Originally posted by * 7ayat : quote: Originally posted by Tibe still working: Fact is that religion plays a big role in all wars and international conflicts.* The fact is wars are a result of conflicts, conflicts are a result of differences in opinion usually fanatical. These differences of opinion do not have to be about religion at all. If you think that the disappearnace of religion will result in world peace, think again. People will find something else to fight about. Some think that World War 3 will be about water, because of the increasing shortage all over the world. Now where is religion in that? In the end it's always because of power, even the religious wars. These conflicts are also about power, no religion has the subject 'power' in it, as a tool to control, but religion has been used as a power-tool. A disagreement about land is also a disagreement about power. People have a sort of natural attitude to empower another, usually the one who's weaker as they are. (Same as animals have)
Dzosser Member # 9572	posted Religion is nothing but wars..it takes a religious man to become an evil one, history says it all. A look at this funny quote (off topic).. "Dear God. We paid for all this stuff ourselves, so thanks for nothing." [Bart Simpson saying grace]