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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ayisha: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by unfinished thought.: [qb] [QUOTE]Saul was an active persecutor of the Jerusalem Church, entering its synagogues and arresting its members.[/QUOTE]And let's not forget that Paul (Saul) was [b]martyred[/b] for his faith. Do you think that a person would die for a lie that was invented by himself ? After examining the general trustworthiness of the Apostles on the basis of their message and life, their emphasis on truth, as well as the fact that all of them have suffered much for their faith, and all died as martyrs for their faith, it is clear that they truly believed what they preached, since nobody dies happily for what he knows to have made up and isn't true. According to certain Muslim expositors, there is a story in the Quran that affirms that Jesus’ disciples functioned as God’s messengers. Here is the story in question, which will be followed with comments from some of Islam’s best-known commentators and historians: “[b]Among the apostles and those disciples around them, whom Jesus sent out, there were Peter and his companion Paul.”[/b] (Thalabii, Qisas al-Anbiyaa, pp. 389-390) According to al-Tabari Paul was a faithful follower of the Apostles, especially the Apostle Peter. In fact, al-Tabari lists Paul as one of those martyred for the faith: [i]“Abu Ja'far says: They assert that after Tiberius, Palestine and other parts of Syria were ruled by Gaius, son of Tiberius, for four years. He was succeeded by another son, Claudius, for fourteen years, following which Nero ruled for fourteen years. [b]He slew Peter and crucified Paul head down.[/b] For four months Botlaius [Vittelius] ruled thereafter. Then Vespasian, father of Titus whom he sent to Jerusalem, ruled for ten years. Three years after his rise to power, [b]forty years after the ascension of Jesus[/b], Vespasian sent Titus to Jerusalem. Titus destroyed it and slew numerous Israelites [b]in his wrath over the fate of Christ[/b]…” [/i](Ibid., p. 126;) Narrated Ibn S'ād and Ibn Asakir by the authority of Abi Saleh and Ibn Abbas who said: [i]There was a one thousand and nine hundred years gap between the time of Moses the son of Imran and Jesus. During which time one thousand prophets were sent to the people of Israel. And there was five hundred and sixty nine years gap between the birth of Jesus and the time of Muhammad. During the first part of this gap, [b]three prophets were sent. The third one of these prophets WAS SIMON[/b]. Narrated Ibn Abi Hatim by the authority of Shuwaib Al Jabā'ayee who said: [b]The names of the first two messengers were Simon and John. And the name of the third one was Paul.[/b] Narrated Ibn al-Monthere from Saed bin Jubayr who said: [b]The name of the third messenger was Paul.[/b] [/i] Not only is Paul called a messenger, but Simon (referring to Peter) is also said to be a prophet! This is highly interesting, especially in light of the fact that Muslims often vilify Paul, attacking his credibility. Yet, it seems that the first Muslims did not doubt for a moment that Paul was a true follower of Jesus, or at least a true follower of Jesus' Apostles. For instance, in Alfred Guillaume's The Life of Muhammad (Oxford University Press Karachi) we find the first Muslims endorsing the legitimacy of Paul as a representative of Christ's teachings: [i]"God has sent me (Muhammad) to all men, so take a message from me, God have mercy on you. Do not hang back from me as the disciples hung back from Jesus son of Mary. They asked how they hung back and he said, ‘He called them to a task similar to that which I have called you. Those who had to go a short journey were pleased and accepted. Those who had a long journey before them were displeased and refused to go, and Jesus complained of them to God. (T. From that very night) every one of them was able to speak the language of the people to whom he was sent.’ (T. Jesus said, ‘This is a thing that God has determined that you should do, so go.’) "Those whom Jesus son of Mary sent, both disciples and those who came after them, in the land were: Peter the disciple [b]AND PAUL WITH HIM, (PAUL BELONGED TO THE FOLLOWERS AND WAS NOT A DISCIPLE) to Rome.[/b] Andrew and Matthew to the land of the cannibals; Thomas to the land of Babel, which is in the land of the east; Philip to Carthage and Africa; John to Ephesus the city of the young men of the cave; James to Jerusalem which is Aelia the city of the sanctuary; Bartholomew to Arabia which is the land of Hijaz; Simon to the land of Berbers; Judah who was not one of the disciples was put in place of Judas." [/i](Ibid. p. 653;) Other Muslim sources that affirm the preceding statement include: [i]"Among the apostles and those disciples around them, whom Jesus sent out, there were Peter [b]and his companion Paul[/b]." (Thalabii, Qisas al-Anbiyaa, pp. 389-390) [/i] And, [i]"Among the apostles, [b]and the followers who came after them were the Apostle Peter and Paul who was a follower and not an apostle; they went to Rome.[/b] Andrew and Matthew were sent to the country whose people are man-eaters, a land of blacks, we think; Thomas was sent to Babylonia in the east, Philip to Qayrawan (and) Carthage, that is, North Africa. John went to Ephesus, the city of the youths of the cave, and James to Jerusalem, that is, Aelia. Bartholomew was sent to Arabia, namely, the Hijaz; Simeon to the land of the Berbers in Africa. Judas was not then an apostle, so his place was taken by Ariobus. He filled in for Judas Iscariot after the latter had perpetrated his deed." (Tabari, History, Volume IV, p. 123;) [/i] [URL=http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:hEaLuRAmJsEJ:www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/christs_apostles.htm+The+Apostles+of+Christ:+Messengers+of+God+or%2BANSWERING+ISLAM%2BAPOSTLES%2BPAUL&cd=1&hl=sv&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=firefox-a]The Apostles of Christ: Messengers of God or Mere Disciples?[/URL] [/qb][/QUOTE]am I skimming this right? you are using Islamic sources to prove Paul knew Jesus when we all know full well he never met him and using Islamic sources to prove Paul wasnt the founder of Christianity?? Check again UT, the source I used was not an Islamic one, I am not looking at this from an islamic perspective. Because Paul was the founder of Christianity as it is today has been known for many years and the newly found scrolls confirm this. You can say this and that are forged all you like but not according to the scientists that date them. The church has covered up this mess since day one, having Jesus as saviour 3 in 1 was and still is a sure way of keeping the masses in the dark and under control. Jesus never said he was God, when asked if he was he replied he was the son of MAN. All the 'gospels' written by men that DID know him and found later have confirmed this, those you and the church continue to say are forgeries. ;) [/QB][/QUOTE]
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