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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ayisha: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by ourluxor: Like many non-Muslims, vw plainly believes that Muhammad made the whole thing up for his own personal benefit! But you, (who seem to believe that it came direct from Allah) are a Muslim, and I'm certain that I've read where you say that Quran, as the Word of Allah, is not to be messed with (or words to that effect). Surely this is where the "hear and obey" mantra comes from? Or am I wrong again? [/QUOTE]vw (and many others) use other things 'outside' what God revealed to try to understand what God revealed. That which is outside what God revealed is from man and not God, it matters not a jot WHO that man is claimed to be. Islam is in what God revealed and IN what God revealed he said it was complete, fully detailed and easy to understand for those that 'give thought'. If it is complete then none of the verses IN there abrogate any other in there, if it is fully detailed then it needs nothing 'outside' of it added to it and if it is easy to undertand 'for those that give thought' then you have to use 'thought' when reading it. Nowhere in there does it lead you off to look elsewhere, in fact it warns you from looking elsewhere. In MY reading of Quran I have no doubt whatsoever that it is from God, not man, hence I 'reverted/converted' on reading it. "I'm certain that I've read where you say that Quran, as the Word of Allah, is not to be messed with" That can be taken 2 ways, No I don't think the word of God can be messed with in that I don't take it lightly and think of God as less than me and 2, the words should not be messed with as in 'changed' about or taken out of context of the WHOLE. [QUOTE]"How do you think you get some people saying it's a religion of peace and others claiming we have to kill Christians if it's basically an instruction book?" I would say, because someone is "messing" with the instructions written in Quran! The pertinent question would then be "Which view is right?" Is Allah the bloodthirsty hater of his creation, who requires all men to be as slaves, or is He the peaceful, loving God which so many Muslims claim. [/QUOTE]I suppose you could say both as HE is the ONLY one in total control. We are talking about the Creator here, whatever you choose to label Him as. Back in Torah there were all the rules and regs and we were told we were created to worship HIM. There was a more mellow part of the message with Jesus and a final warning with Quran, a reminder to mankind who is boss and who we will return to, that there is no way out of that. The reminder (Quran is called that IN it) is basically that, reminding us there is only one worthly of worship and reminding us of the rules and regs but there is still a choice as we were given that as humans. The rules are clearly there and no it's actually not killing everyone that wont convert, quite the contrary, the punishment (after death, by God) for killing someone is as if you had killed all mankind. There are clearly defined rules there for those that give thought of a way this life should be lived and how you should interact with others. Also a great deal of Quran is what was PAST, reminders, various prophets and their dealings and various peoples reactions and where they went wrong, we are to learn FROM those parts. The 'we hear and obey' is throughout Quran for not questioning what God revealed, we obey it, but it also tells of those who say this but DON'T, as in the hypocrites among those there with Muhammed and of course among us. [QUOTE]If it's the latter; then Allah is making a right hash of that which God gave us in the perfection of the New Covenant of salvation by faith in the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Jesus. It wasn't broke, so why try to fix it? [/QUOTE]1, there is One God, in Arabic that is Allah, in English it is God, in French it is Deus (I think) in German it is Gott and in Aborigine it is Uknatu. The 'salvation by faith' is broken as your faith is in Jesus, not God. The faith, the worship the everything in the message (in it's entirity) is to have faith in GOD ALONE and not His messengers. You feel comfort with your faith, and that's great, but you also KNOW that what you have is NOT the whole of what came from God or even Jesus, you KNOW it was changed and sorted through in 325ad and you KNOW that many of its books were removed, they are being discovered up to now. You know all this yet you still blinker yourself to a small portion of what God has revealed and negate the rest, the real stuff which proves those close to Jesus never thought of him as God or any more a son of than you are. You KNOW Christianity as you have it now was born long after Christ 'ascended' and you KNOW that Paul is one who 'lead the different path' so to speak. If you really wanted to know the truth of what God revealed you would be delving a lot deeper to see WHY God had to reveal Quran and what the warnings are about what Jews and Christians did wrong, which muslims are SUPPOSED to learn from. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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