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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Baalberith: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] why do you portray north africans as niger-congo people ? do you have any genetic or historical evidence for this ? Or it's just for fun (i hope)? [/qb][/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Genetic Evidence North Africa is quickly emerging as one of the more important regions yielding information on the origins of modern Homo sapiens. Associated with significant fossil hominin remains are two stone tool industries, the Aterian and Mousterian, which have been differentiated, respectively, primarily on the basis of the presence and absence of tanged, or stemmed, stone tools. Largely because of historical reasons, these two industries have been attributed to the western Eurasian Middle Paleolithic rather than the African Middle Stone Age. In this paper, drawing on our recent excavation of Contrebandiers Cave and other published data, we show that, aside from the presence or absence of tanged pieces, there are no other distinctions between these two industries in terms of either lithic attributes or chronology. Together, these results demonstrate that these two ‘industries’ are instead variants of the same entity. Moreover, several additional characteristics of these assemblages, [b]such as distinctive stone implements and the manufacture and use of bone tools and possible shell ornaments, suggest a closer affinity to other Late Pleistocene African Middle Stone Age industries rather than to the Middle Paleolithic of western Eurasia[/b] Source: On the industrial attributions of the Aterian and Mousterian of the Maghreb, Harold L. Dibble et al. Journal of Human Evolution, 2013 Elsevier In this study we analyzed 295 unrelated Berber-speaking men from northern, central, and southern Morocco to characterize frequency of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and to refine the phylogeny of its subclades: E1b1b1b1-M107, E1b1b1b2-M183, and E1b1b1b2a-M165. For this purpose, we typed four biallelic polymorphisms: M81, M107, M183, and M165.[b]A large majority of the Berber-speaking male lineages belonged to the Y-chromosomal E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup. The frequency ranged from 79.1% to 98.5% in all localities sampled[/b]. E1b1b1b2-M183 was the most dominant subclade in our samples, ranging from 65.1% to 83.1%. In contrast, the E1b1b1b1-M107 and E1b1b1b2a-M165 subclades were not found in our samples. Our results suggest a predominance of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup among Moroccan Berber-speaking males with a decreasing gradient from south to north. Source: Phylogeography of E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and analysis of its subclades in Morocco Anthropological Evidence The extremely large skeletal samples that come from sites such as Taforalt (Fig. 8.13) and Afalou constitute an invaluable resource for understanding the makers of Iberomaurusian artifacts, and their number is unparalleled elsewhere in Africa for the early Holocene. Frequently termed Mechta-Afalou or Mechtoid, [b]these were a skeletally robust people and definitely African in origin[/b], though attempts, such as those of Ferembach (1985), to establish similarities with much older and rarer Aterian skeletal remains are tenuous given the immense temporal separation between the two (Close and Wendorf 1990). [b]At the opposite end of the chronological spectrum, dental morphology does suggest connections with later Africans, including those responsible for the Capsian Industry (Irish 2000) and early mid-Holocene human remains from the western half of the Sahara[/b] (Dutour 1989), something that points to the Maghreb as one of the regions from which people recolonised the desert (MacDonald 1998). [b]Another form of body modification was much more widespread and, indeed, a distinctive feature of the Iberomaurusian skeletal sample as a whole. This was the practice of removing two or more of the upper incisors, usually around puberty and from both males and females, something that probably served as both a rite of passage and an ethnic marker (Close and Wendorf 1990), just as it does in parts of sub-Saharan Africa today[/b] (e.g., van Reenen 1987). Cranial and postcranial malformations are also apparent and may indicate pronounced endogamy at a much more localised level (Hadjouis 2002), perhaps supported by the degree of variability between different site samples noted by Irish (2000). Source: The First Africans: African Archaeology from the Earliest Toolmakers to Most Recent Foragers (Cambridge World Archaeology) On the remains of the Phoenicians and Carthaginians: "The Phoenicians had nothing in common with the official Jewish type: brachycephal, aquiline or Hittite nose, and so on [...] skulls presumably Phoenician, have been found west of Syracuse [...] [b]but these skulls are dolichocephalic and proganthous, with Negroid affinities[/b] "Other bones discovered in Punic Carthage, and housed in the Lavigerie Museum, come from personages found in special sarcophagi and probably belonging to the Carthaginian elite. [b]Almost all the skulls are dolichocephalic[/b]." Source: Source: Eugene Pittard "Les races et L' histoire." "The anthropological examination of skeletons found in tombs in Carthage proves that there is no racial unity [...] The so called Semitic type, characterized by the long, perfectly oval face, the thin aquiline nose and the lengthened cranium, enlarged over the nape of the neck has not been found in Carthage. On the other hand, another cranial form, with a fairly short face, prominent parietal bumps, farther forward and lower down than is usual is common [...] [b]most of the Punic population in Carthage had African and even Negro ancestors[/b]" Source: Charles Picard "Daily Life in Carthage at the time of Hannibal" "[b]The race which gave birth to the Moroccans can be no other than the African negroes because the same black type[/b] [...] is found all the way to Senegal upon the right bank of the river without counting that it has been recognized in various parts of the Sahara [...] and from there comes black Moors who still have thick lips as a result of negro descent and not from intermixture [...] As to the white, bronze, or dark Moors, they are no other than the near relations of black Moors with whom they form the varieties of the same race; and as one can also see among the Europeans, blondes, brunettes, and chestnuts, in the midst of the same population so one may see Moroccans of every color in the same agglomeration without it being a question of their being real mulattos." Source: “Sur des races noires indigènes qui existaient anciennement dans l’afrique septentrionale” "Snowden (1970) and Desanges (1981) reference various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In various writers’ physical descriptions of the ancient Maghreb’s inhabitants. In addition to the presence of fair-skinned blonds, various “Ethiopian” or “part-Ethiopian” groups are described, near the coast and on the southern slopes of the Atlas mountains. “Ethiopians,” meaning dark-skinned peoples usually having “ulotrichous” (wooly) hair, are noted in various Greek accounts and European coinage (Snowden, 1970). Hiernaux (1975) interprets the finding of “[b]subsaharan” population affinities in living Maghrebans as being solely the result of the medieval transsaharan slave trade; it is clear that this is not the case. Furthermore, the blacks of the ancient Maghreb were apparently not foreign or a caste[/b]." Source: (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa," American Journal of Physical Anthropology, 83:35-48 (1990) Documented Evidence "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauretania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "[b]black[/b]" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). [b]Being a dark people[/b] in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "[b]Negro[/b];" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India Source: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=moor Mauri, the inhabitants of Mauritania. This name is derived from their black complexion Source: A classical dictionary: containing a copious account of all proper names mentioned in ancient authors, with the value of coins, weights, and measures used among the Greeks and Romans, and a chronological table (1822) by John Lemprière Coat of Arms of Sardinia. As with the heraldry of families named with variants of Mori or Moor, several countries in Europe have flags and coat of arms with the heads of Moors on them. Military historian, Yaacov Lev in the article , “Army Regime and Society in Fatimid Egypt” (1987) wrote of Nasir Khusroes of the 11th century who speaks of the "20,000" Masmuda men that made up part of the Fatimid troops in Egypt in his time saying, “Masamida were Berbers from the Western Maghreb. [b]Nasir-i Khusrau, however, says that they were blacks[/b] and characterized them as infantry who used lances and swords” Source: (from International Journal of Middle East Studies, 19(3), 337-365) "The [b]blacks[/b] are more numerous than the [b]whites[/b]. The whites at most consist of the people of Persia, Jibal, and Khurasan, the Greeks, Slavs, Franks, and Avars, and some few others, not very numerous; the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, [b]the people of Fezzan[/b], [b]the Berbers[/b], [b]the Copts[/b], and the Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, [b]the Moors[/b], Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China (Southeast Asia), and Masin, the islands in the seas between China (Southeast Asia) and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China (Southeast Asia), Kabul, and those shores." Source: Al-Jahiz (776-869): Al-Fakhar al-Sudan min al-Abyadh (Superiority Of The Blacks To The Whites) “Ham, having become black because of a curse pronounced against him by his father, fled to the Maghrib to hide in shame.... Berber, son of Kesloudjim [Casluhim], one of his descendants, left numerous posterity in the Maghrib Source: Ibn Khaldun, Histoire I, 177–178 "Now the real fact, the fact which dispenses with all hypothesis, is this: [b]the Berbers[/b] are the children of Canaan, [b]the son of Ham[/b], son of Noah." Down this line came Berr who had two sons, Baranis and Madghis al-Abtar. All Berber tribes descended from one or the other of these brothers and were classified as either Baranes or Botr Source: Histoire I, 173–185 1st c. A.D.– Marcus Valerian Martial was one of the earliest Europeans to use the phrase “[b]woolly hair like a Moor[/b]” also translated "[b]a Moor with his crisp hair[/b]" Source: Book 6 of "The Epigrams" Long ago, after Noah, Blacks inhabited our country: they went up as far as Morocco until from Syria came the first white conquerors: they were light skinned men with grey eyes. Source: La tradition chez les Ida Aghzeinbou [/qb][/QUOTE]You don't even understand what you're posting ....smh : first of all aterians are a middle and upper paleolithic people and they have never been berbers or part of the berber genome at their time there were "black" populations all over the world so taking them to prove that NAs were black is a weak argument I asked for "ancient berbers" (so when history began) not extremely old populations. E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup is a berber haplogroup specific of north africa and most of modern north africans have this haplogroup ....so what's your point ? thanks for contradicting yourself. Again you show here your ignorance because genetically iberomaurusians are not considered as a black population : [QUOTE]Moreover, our model predicts that West Africans (represented by Yoruba) had 12.5±1.1% ancestry from a Taforalt-related group [b]rather than Taforalt having ancestry from an unknown Sub-Saharan African source11; this may have mediated the limited Neanderthal admixture present in West Africans23. An advantage of our model is that it allows for a local North African component in the ancestry of Taforalt, rather than deriving them exclusively from Levantine and Sub-Saharan sources.[/b][/QUOTE]source :https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/423079v1.full and guess what ? a recent study has just proved that there is a genetic continuity since the iberomaurusian era : [QUOTE]An international team of scientists has for the first time performed an analysis of the complete genome of the population of North Africa. [b]They have identified a small genetic imprint of the inhabitants of the region in Palaeolithic times, thus ruling out the theory that recent migrations from other regions completely erased the genetic traces of ancient North Africans[/b] The study was led by David Comas, principal investigator at UPF and at the Institute of Evolutionary Biology (IBE: CSIC-UPF) and it has been published in the journal Current Biology." “ [b]We see that the current populations of North Africa are the result of this replacement but we detect small traces of this continuity from Palaeolithic times, i.e., total replacement did not take place in the populations of North Africa”, reveals David Comas, full professor of Biological Anthropology at the Department of Experimental and Health Sciences (DCEXS) at UPF. “We do not know whether the first settlers 300,000 years ago are their ancestors, but we do detect imprints of this continuity at least since Palaeolithic times, since 15,000 years ago or more”[/b] he adds [/QUOTE]source : https://scienmag.com/the-genetic-imprint-of-palaeolithic-has-been-detected-in-north-african-populations/?fbclid=IwAR2ovwmsgSIsXgGwGGreCNctQstTP1-gX9qTMHaSc7G25h5q2RHX9hCquIU plenty of NAs today are almost half iberomaurusian as you can see here (just one example because the number of pics are limited here) : [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/El53l33.jpg?1[/IMG] none of them look black or biracial. Now about these carthaginians ...lmao wtf is that your source is an old book from 1924 (https://www.amazon.fr/races-lhistoire-PITTARD-Eugene/dp/B003WVFYUU) and dolichocephalic isn't a specific negroid trait it's found all over the world. Reality about carthaginians is this : reconstruction of the man of byrsa : http://www.sci-news.com/archaeology/phoenician-young-man-byrsa-european-ancestry-03895.html also here some coins depicting famous carthaginian figures : https://imgur.com/7AJ32h9 https://imgur.com/InF4YrM How they portrayed their gods : [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/uSwUsuv.jpg?1[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/hKRyyd4.jpg?1[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/0OBH5AN.jpg?1[/IMG] the famous tombs of the elite : [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/tVv1JxY.jpg?1[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/2AkYTOs.jpg?1[/IMG] How italians portrayed hannibal : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Barca#/media/Fichier:Mommsen_p265.jpg Also in ancient times the word "Aethiops" was used by greco-roman scholars to describe any black population and they never used it for north africans. About moroccans I didn't find any information about your source and I'm a french speaker...probably a very old and biased source but what he's saying is right some black populations have been natives to some part of the sahara and miscegenation happened a lot of times and this phenomena was amplified by the trans-saharan slave trade as you can see here : [QUOTE]Our most recent estimated dates correlate with sub-Saharan admixture in North Africa, which [b]is continuous during the last few centuries (from the 13th century to the 20th century, see cluster L in fig. 5), as previously suggested by historical records (Newman 1995) and genetic data (Harich et al. 2010; Henn et al. 2012).[/b] [b]However, it is noteworthy that very precise dates are found in some cases in the 17th century in western clusters (see cluster K and M). The admixture dates in the 17th century could be the consequence of the trans-Saharan slave trade that resulted from the Ottoman rule in North Africa and the arrival of the Crown of Castile and the Portuguese Kingdom to the West African seaports in the 16th century.[/b] The Iberian presence, driven by the search of a workforce in their recent settled Atlantic territories, modified the political and socioeconomic structure of Western Africa. This also intensified traffic through trans-Saharan routes to North Africa after the emergence of the sugar industry in this region and the Atlantic territories (Newman 1995; Oliver and Atmore 2001; Da Mosto 2003). Comparison of inferred ancestry proportions between the autosomes and X chromosome in Cluster M is indicative of sex-biased admixture with an overabundance of males with Middle Eastern (Syrian-like) ancestry and females with sub-Saharan African (Yoruba-like) ancestry. Moreover, we infer a lower proportion of sub-Saharan ancestry older than previously described in all admixture events dated from the first century B.C., [b]which could be attributed to more ancient slave trade during the Roman or Islamic periods[/b] , such as the servile Haratin population of Nilo-Saharan origin in Berber groups such as the Sanhadja and Zenata (Newman 1995). Caution is warranted, however, as there are serious difficulties in reliably estimating the proportions contributed by each source population in the admixture events, mainly because the lack of a proper ancestral North African population. In our analyses, we have considered the population from Tunisia Chenini as the best proxy, but genetic drift in Chenini samples due to isolation and interbreeding might substantially underestimate the contribution of the autochthonous ancestral groups in extant North African populations. [/QUOTE]source : https://academic.oup.com/mbe/article/34/2/318/2680801#58231020 [QUOTE] [b]A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages.[/b] " " [b]The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Sub-Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago[/b] [/QUOTE]source : https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-10-138 Also I've never denied that there were some blacks in NA ...there are multiple mentions of blacks mercenaries in the carthaginian armies or in south tunisia for example but they were not berbers or viewed as such and they were a very tiny minority like today. As for archeological documents and testimonials : from herodotus's trip in egypt --> [QUOTE]After this man the priest enumerate to me from a papyrus the names of other Kings, three hundred and thirty in number; and in all these generations of men [b]eighteen were Ethiopians, one was a woman and the rest were men and of Egyptian race[/b]. [/QUOTE]so clear distinction between "ethiopians" and egyptians. [QUOTE][b]The Ethiopians stain the world and depict a race of men steeped in darkness; less sun-burnt are the natives of India; the land of Egypt, flooded by the Nile, darkens bodies more mildly owing to the inundation of its fields: it is a country nearer to us and its moderate climate imparts a medium tone.[/b] Manilius, Astronomica 4.724 [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] [b]The appearance of the inhabitants is also not very different in India and Ethiopia: the southern Indians are rather more like Ethiopians as they are black to look on, and their hair is black; only they are not so snub-nosed or woolly-haired as the Ethiopians; the northern Indians are most like the Egyptians physically. Arrian, Indica 6.9[/b] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] [b]As for the people of India, those in the south are like the Aethiopians in color, although they are like the rest in respect to countenance and hair (for on account of the humidity of the air their hair does not curl), whereas those in the north are like the Egyptians. Strabo, Geography 15.1.13[/b] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] [b]Black people resided not in the Nile valley but in a far land, by the fountain of the sun. Xenpohanes (Hesoid, works and says, 527-8)[/b] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]It was a market place to which the Ethiopians bring all the products of their country; and the Egyptians in their turn take them all away and bring to the same spot their own wares of equal value, so bartering what they have got for what they have not. [b]Now the inhabitants of the marches (Nubian/Egyptians border) are not yet fully black but are half-breeds in matter of color, for they are partly not so black as the Ethiopians, yet partly more so than the Egyptians[/b] . Flavius Philostratus: c.170 to c.247, [/QUOTE]The word "mauri" was an ethnonym used for north-west africans and comes from the punic word "mahurim" which means "westerners" (because they lived west of carthage) (https://www.persee.fr/doc/bmsap_0037-8984_1903_num_4_1_7671) so It had nothing to do with "black" or dark skin also don't confuse it with another term "blackamoor" which was an artistic movement. here famous moorish king : King Juba 2 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juba_II I can post thousands of evidence like these ones but i will finish this answer by showing a genetic study who show that guanches ( who were isolated from most foreign invasions) were identical to [b]modern[/b] north africans : [QUOTE] [b]Our results show that the Guanches were genetically similar over time and that they display the greatest genetic affinity to extant Northwest Africans, strongly supporting the hypothesis of a Berber-like origin[/b] [/QUOTE] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217312575 [/QB][/QUOTE]
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