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Africa: A continent of "Land-Lubbers" ??
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [QB] Are you saying AEs stopped leaving documents after ~800 BCE? What trade existed between AE and Carthage? I want to know about it. I already admitted the only research I've read on the matter [b]Arnold Hermann Ludwig Heeren[/b][i] Historical researches into the politics, intercourse, and trade of the Carthaginians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians[/i] London: H.G. Bohn, 1857 is way down-level and surely something even relatively slightly more up to date is available. I just want somebody to introduce me to it or present it here. It's surely significant if there are no Egyptian records even mentioning Carthage when other lesser nations that flourished between ~800BCE - ~200BCE are on record. It implies AE knew nothing about a major empire not so terribly far away on the same continent. I imagine the west being Amenti and tied in to the Dwat may have hampered AE trade and travel in that direction. Other than the neighboring Tjehenu, AE knew not of the peoples further west until they threatened Egypt. There was no Egyptian sea power in the Mediterranean. Being able to build ships and using them along the Nile and to a limited offshore extent in the Red Sea does not equate to high seas maritime ventures as undertaken by ancient Aegeans and ancient Levantines of whose expeditions we have numerous records and imperial colonies in the case of the latter. Having sea worthy vessels or the technology to produce them is not the same as actual using them and leaving records of their use. All I'm asking for is the same kind of explicit records for Mediterranean trade or travel that we find in the overland and riverain trade to various nations throughout the length of dynastic Egypt's history. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [qb] The point is that trade with Carthage came late because Carthage did not appear on the map until late, in Egyptian terms. Carthage did not become a Mediterranean power until after the dynastic period was almost over. Therefore, trade with Carthage is not any sort of significant factor in the time frame of dynastic Egyptian Naval power in the ancient Mediterranean. Likewise, you have the oldest images of seaworthy ships and ships at sea in Egypt, yet somehow that doesn't count as evidence? How much evidence do you need? Or is it because the Eurocentrics said that those things were just "river boats", or ceremonial, then it doesn't count? The time period of ancient Egyptian naval power exerting an influence on the Mediterranean goes back to 3000 B.C. and earlier. From this time period, there are few remaining ACTUAL BOATS in existence, except for those FOUND IN THE TOMBS OF EGYPT. Doesn't that tell you something? Or, because the Egyptologists say they are merely funerary boats, they don't count in Mediterranean maritime history, we should ignore them? Well once again, the problem isn't evidence, it is the INTERPRETATION of the evidence, especially from a Eurocentric point of view that causes the problem. Case in point. Look at the ships from the monuments of the Old Kingdom, like those of Sahure and others. They are EXACTLY the same types of ships that would be built by LATER cultures elsewhere in the Mediterranean. Think that is merely a coincidence? I think not. Good example: Doesn't this vase and the ships remind you of the artifacts found in the Nile Valley from over a thousand years prior? (Mycenean shipping Amphora 1700 B.C.) View the rest of the images on this site: http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/07_merchant_ships.html and note how much those Minoan and Mycenean vessels resemble this, from 1000 years earlier: In fact many of those images look like reproductions of scenes from Egyptian art 1000 years earlier. And also note how the "funny shape" of the Minoan and Mycenean boats is not called into question as to their sea worthiness, but the EXACT SAME kind of boat in Egypt from 1000 years earlier IS QUESTIONED as being sea worthy? Now who is kidding who? Also note that some of the earliest boats allegedly used in Greece were papyrus boats. These boats were used for going to the Sea and some try and put the age of this technology in Greece back to 7000 B.C., but with no evidence. Somehow I sense a double standard, whereas Greece and other places are credited with ancient seagoing abilities with little or no evidence, while ancient Egypt with a continuous record and tradition of boats in ALL ASPECTS of their culture get no credit for ANYTHING....... http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/Ships.htm Like I said, get rid of the Eurocentric nonsense and the evidence is plain to see. [/qb][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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