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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] Are you saying AEs stopped leaving documents after ~800 BCE? What trade existed between AE and Carthage? I want to know about it. I already admitted the only research I've read on the matter [b]Arnold Hermann Ludwig Heeren[/b][i] Historical researches into the politics, intercourse, and trade of the Carthaginians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians[/i] London: H.G. Bohn, 1857 is way down-level and surely something even relatively slightly more up to date is available. I just want somebody to introduce me to it or present it here. It's surely significant if there are no Egyptian records even mentioning Carthage when other lesser nations that flourished between ~800BCE - ~200BCE are on record. It implies AE knew nothing about a major empire not so terribly far away on the same continent. I imagine the west being Amenti and tied in to the Dwat may have hampered AE trade and travel in that direction. Other than the neighboring Tjehenu, AE knew not of the peoples further west until they threatened Egypt. There was no Egyptian sea power in the Mediterranean. Being able to build ships and using them along the Nile and to a limited offshore extent in the Red Sea does not equate to high seas maritime ventures as undertaken by ancient Aegeans and ancient Levantines of whose expeditions we have numerous records and imperial colonies in the case of the latter. Having sea worthy vessels or the technology to produce them is not the same as actual using them and leaving records of their use. All I'm asking for is the same kind of explicit records for Mediterranean trade or travel that we find in the overland and riverain trade to various nations throughout the length of dynastic Egypt's history. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [qb] The point is that trade with Carthage came late because Carthage did not appear on the map until late, in Egyptian terms. Carthage did not become a Mediterranean power until after the dynastic period was almost over. Therefore, trade with Carthage is not any sort of significant factor in the time frame of dynastic Egyptian Naval power in the ancient Mediterranean. Likewise, you have the oldest images of seaworthy ships and ships at sea in Egypt, yet somehow that doesn't count as evidence? How much evidence do you need? Or is it because the Eurocentrics said that those things were just "river boats", or ceremonial, then it doesn't count? The time period of ancient Egyptian naval power exerting an influence on the Mediterranean goes back to 3000 B.C. and earlier. From this time period, there are few remaining ACTUAL BOATS in existence, except for those FOUND IN THE TOMBS OF EGYPT. Doesn't that tell you something? Or, because the Egyptologists say they are merely funerary boats, they don't count in Mediterranean maritime history, we should ignore them? Well once again, the problem isn't evidence, it is the INTERPRETATION of the evidence, especially from a Eurocentric point of view that causes the problem. Case in point. Look at the ships from the monuments of the Old Kingdom, like those of Sahure and others. They are EXACTLY the same types of ships that would be built by LATER cultures elsewhere in the Mediterranean. Think that is merely a coincidence? I think not. Good example: Doesn't this vase and the ships remind you of the artifacts found in the Nile Valley from over a thousand years prior? (Mycenean shipping Amphora 1700 B.C.) View the rest of the images on this site: http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/07_merchant_ships.html and note how much those Minoan and Mycenean vessels resemble this, from 1000 years earlier: In fact many of those images look like reproductions of scenes from Egyptian art 1000 years earlier. And also note how the "funny shape" of the Minoan and Mycenean boats is not called into question as to their sea worthiness, but the EXACT SAME kind of boat in Egypt from 1000 years earlier IS QUESTIONED as being sea worthy? Now who is kidding who? Also note that some of the earliest boats allegedly used in Greece were papyrus boats. These boats were used for going to the Sea and some try and put the age of this technology in Greece back to 7000 B.C., but with no evidence. Somehow I sense a double standard, whereas Greece and other places are credited with ancient seagoing abilities with little or no evidence, while ancient Egypt with a continuous record and tradition of boats in ALL ASPECTS of their culture get no credit for ANYTHING....... http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/Ships.htm Like I said, get rid of the Eurocentric nonsense and the evidence is plain to see. [/qb][/QUOTE][/qb][/QUOTE]I don't know bro Takrur but I think you are missing what I have been saying. Going back to 2500 BC where is there ANY evidence of ANY sort of boats, maritime trade or activity ANYWHERE on earth? Boats, ropes and other sorts of materials don't often last 5,000 years for us to examine. Hence the oldest plank boats in the world are those found IN THE TOMBS OF EGYPT. The tombs of the Old Kingdom have images of the Egyptians sailing including ON THE SEA. The first voyages to Punt were in the OLD KINGDOM. [QUOTE] It is untrue, as Hatshepsut claimed, that her voyage was the first in history. It has been an ancient tradition to undertake that trip since the 4th dynasty, when a son of "Khufu" (Cheops) did it. Other voyages were mentioned during the reign of "Sahu-Ra" in the early 5th dynasty, when Egyptians began trading with the Land of Punt. Another expedition has been mentioned during the reign of "Pepi II" (6th dynasty). The caravan leader, "Harkhuf" has written to the 9-year old king describing a dancing dwarf he was bringing back to Egypt. [/QUOTE]From: http://www.touregypt.net/magazine/mag03012001/magf6.htm The monuments of Sahure also show them sailing to the Levant. There is plenty of evidence showing trade with peoples around the Mediterranean at this time. These are some of the oldest records of sea commerce anywhere on earth. All of this is 1500 years prior to the existence of a Carthage. [QUOTE] Sneferu had a number of children from his wives. Other than Hetepheres, he had at least two other wives who gave him six children. The evidence suggests that the sons of his first wife were buried in Maidum, before he moved to the newer burial grounds in Dashur. No one knows why he didn't move back to Saqqara, like everyone else. His military campaigns against the Nubians and Libyans are recorded on the Palermo stone, and he began to trade with the Mediterranean nations. To supply Egypt with the cedar wood they needed for building the royal barges and doors of palaces, he sent a fleet to Lebanon to trade for it. Like previous pharaohs, he led expeditions to the Sinai -- and was later revered as a god in that area. [/QUOTE]From: http://www.phouka.com/pharaoh/pharaoh/dynasties/dyn04/01sneferu.html [QUOTE] Although there are very few Egyptian artifacts from Canaanite contexts that can be dated securely to the Twelfth Dynasty, one particularly notable exception is a series of 47 bullae, or clay sealings, found in a sealed – and hence archaeologically secure – fill at the site of Ashkelon on the souther coast of present-day Israel. These bullae would have been used to seal clay jars prior to the shipment of commodities, and the very prosaic nature of the sealings also implies that, in addition to the highly visible and highly valuable ‘luxury’ goods, such as the gold objects found at Byblos, subsistence commodities were being transshipped in bulk throughout the eastern Mediterranean as well. The importance of the exchange in bulk items as well as in luxury or precious goods has a significant bearing on the types of exchange systems in the ancient world, and may very well also be reflected in the type of transport, contact, and shipping undertaken by these polities. Finally, both Cypriote and Minoan pottery has been found in Egypt and at Canaanite sites, while Egyptian material has been excavated from Middle Bronze Age contexts on both Cyprus and Crete. [b]The presence of this imported material clearly indicates exchange and contact, but, it should be noted that, without additional evidence or supporting materials, the nature of this exchange and the mechanisms by which it was carried out remains almost completely unknown.[/b] [/QUOTE]From: http://web.mit.edu/deeparch/www/events/2002conference/papers/Cohen.pdf [QUOTE] Died in 2589 BCE Egypt First King of the Fourth Dynasty Alternate spellings: Sneferu, Snofru, Soris Name of ship(s) he sailed on: Snefru is credited as possibly using cedar wood to build Nile River boats up to about 50 meters (about 170 ft.) in length Primary Goal: To establish trading routes along the Mediterranean, and to advance Egypt’s economy Achievement: Snefru is credited with being the first Pharaoh of Egypt’s Fourth Dynasty (about 2600-2450 BCE). He ruled for an estimated 24 years. He was not declared king through birthright like most kings, but was declared king through marriage. He established trading routes along the Mediterranean, and greatly advanced his empire. Of all of his contributions, his most famous is the Bent Pyramid of Dahshur. [/QUOTE]From: https://www.mariner.org/exploration/index.php?type=explorer&id=45 (Note: there was no Phoenicia in 2500 B.C.) So what does Carthage have to do with the development and history of Egyptian maritime capabilities? Also, I already posted images showing how later Minoan art shows ships remarkably similar to those of Khufu. Do you think that this is a mere coincidence? I also showed you the ancient paintings from old kingdom tombs and vases that are almost exactly like those of later Minoan art and vases. Again what are you saying that this is mere coincidence? What more evidence do you need? Or are you saying you need "official" word from Western European writers who will say that the boats of Khufu are the predecessors of the Minoans and show that there was influence from Egypt to the Mediterranean? Of course they won't do that and it isn't because of lack of evidence. And where did you get the idea that Egypt was not trading with Carthage? Pharoah Necho and Necho II both had or initiated trading relationships with Carthage. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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