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OT: Settling the issues on "Ethio-Sabean" connections, "Habashat", and the related
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Supercar: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yom: Have I been impolite? I always try to be polite in discussions, so [b]I'm rather skeptical[/b] of this, but if I have I apologize.[/QUOTE]...just as I'm skeptical of your assessment of my insistence of the fulfillment of my 'requests', which were not heeded. [QUOTE] Your question was this: [i]"Ethiopian" in Greek, meant "burnt face", is that what "Habasha" means?[/i] I.e., if "Habasha" meant the same thing as "Ethiopia" (i.e. "burnt face"). The answer to that question is no. [/QUOTE]Good, because that answer discredits the idea of equating "Ethiopia" with "Habasha". [QUOTE]Yom: I'm not saying that the word "Ethiopia" was used before Ezana, I doubt it was ever used before him because his usage of the term was probably influenced by his conversion to Christianity. What I [b]am[/b] saying is that Ethiopia has been used as the term for the people of the country (though distinct from "Aksumites " with the meaning of "capital-city dwellers," though not from "Aksumites" with the meaning of the main peoples of the Aksumite empire) since at least Ezana in the mid-4th century. I have shown evidence of its use from Amde Tsiyon (r.1314-1344) to the 16th century, and, if need be, I can add more examples form the 17th and 18th century (maybe also the 12th and 13th, though they will be harder to come by due to the lack of historical data on that era). After Ezana, inscriptions have not yet been found (except a late Aksumite one about Hatsani Dani'el), so we can't say whether the usage continued in Aksumite times. The coins only said King of the Aksumites but that doesn't exclude the usage of Ethiopia. Post-Aksumite and Zagwe times are also hazy wrt historical records. Egyptian patriarchal writings refer to the country as Abyssinia (whatever the Arabic term might be, Ard. al-Habasha maybe?), but that term was always used by the Arabs, regardless of the Ethiopian term, so it's not very relevant.[/QUOTE]If you are trying to say there has been population continuation from whence the term "Habasha" had been used to present, then the answer is yes. Beyond that, I see no rationale for equating "Habasha" used in the past with contemporary "Ethiopia". [QUOTE]Yom: Like Conti Rossini or modern fools like Muhammad Shamsaddin Megalommatis. Major genetic impact would more accurately be a genetic impact substantial enough to have a visible phenomic impact, which I don't believe has happened.[/QUOTE]Do you have citations from these two examples? Of course, you do realize that the Amhara, based on genetic samples, harbor reasonable amounts of Eurasian derived paternal lineages. What do you make of that? [QUOTE] [QUOTE]Supercar: [QUOTE]Yom: What about the Wadi el-Hol script in Middle Egypt?[/QUOTE]What about it?[/QUOTE]You said no alphabet has been found to have developed in Egypt.[/QUOTE]Please provide the said citation, where I've said any such thing. [QUOTE]Yom: Proto-Sinaitic was found in the Sinai rather than Egypt proper, so I named an alphabetic (abjad actually) script found in Middle Egypt.[/QUOTE]I already know about the proto-Sinaitic script found in Egypt. Remember, we had that discussion before. So, this is nothing but red herring. [QUOTE]Yom: [b]No one said anything about a direct derivation into Ge'ez script from Ancient Egyptian.[/b] I'm saying that the Egyptian script could have divided into a northern version and a South Semitic one, which would be the predecessor of either Sabaean and Ge'ez or Sabaean, which later became Ge'ez.[/QUOTE]What relevance does your mentioning of proto-Sinaitic in Egypt have to do with the fact that early Ethiopic script show strong influences from the Sabean script? [QUOTE] Yom: No. I'm simply asking whether its certain that ESA developed in South Arabia first.[/QUOTE]...based on available indicators, it is safe to make that assessment. [QUOTE]Yom: D`mt was 8th-7th c. B.C., which is contemporary with the Minaean script, then.[/QUOTE]Don't confuse "D'mt" with a script. What are you relying on, when you make a claim such as the one above? Is it on a script? If so, what script? [QUOTE]Yom: What's the difference between Minaean script and Sabaean, by the way (letter by letter would be appreciated, but general is fine if you don't know letter by letter differences)?[/QUOTE]Not any alphabetically that I'm aware of. I gather that it has more to do with language dialect, than the script itself, i.e., alphabets, per se. [QUOTE]Yom: A picture of Minaean script is fine, as I have access to images of some of the D`mt inscriptions in Ge'ez (language) and Sabaean. Where did you get those numbers, by the way? I've heard pre-8th century dates for the Minaean civilization (nothing about the script) before.[/QUOTE]Basically something I've gathered from general internet [URL=http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/A/Afroasia.asp]browsing[/URL], nothing authoritative. This however, is besides the point; the point was to demonstrate that Sabean influenced Ethiopic script, rather than vice versa, as exemplified by the strong resemblance between early Ethiopic script and Sabean, and the associated point made by Peter Daniels. [QUOTE]Yom: I didn't include the quotation because Ayele Bekerie is a hack. He doesn't know anything about these types of things, and I'm not making the claim that Ge'ez script derived directly from Ancient Egyptian, [b]just that ESA may have existed in both regions simultaneously (or perhaps even in Ethiopia first, there's not enough evidence to determine these things yet) from a previous South Semitic script (probably derived directly from Proto-Sinaitic).[/b][/QUOTE]In which case, you still have not addressed Mr. Daniels point, which was to demonstrate that Ethiopic scripts derived from Sabean. Mr. Bekerie's position has no bearings on that point. [QUOTE]Yom: The aspects they are referring to are most likely linguistic ones.The method of naming a peron's family wouldn't be an aspect similar to Ge'ez, but rather to a type of writing.[/QUOTE]Of course, they are referring to aspects that are "linguistic". LoL. Why wouldn't the pattern and sequence of writing names and titles of people, not be considered linguistic? The [i]type[/i] of writing used, as I have demonstrated via Munro-Hay's notes and Mr. Daniels comments, is likened to the Sabean script, and hence the usage of the term "pure" [i]Sabean[/i]. [QUOTE]Yom: Forgive me for not being clear, but let me be clear here: the idea of a Sabaean migration in which a superior Yemeni colonist force colonizes and establishes civilization in Ethiopia has long been discredited.[/QUOTE]The idea of whether Sabean immigrants were colonists in the region, has neither been discredited or proven. I agree though, that there is more going for the idea that there was already complex cultures in the African Horn, prior to inter-regional interactions with South Arabian complexes. [QUOTE]Yom: [b]"Significant" above is referring to the migration being the basis for Ethiopian civilization[/b]... The traditional term was "Sabaean invasion" I believe, and had I used this, perhaps my views would have been clearer (but I've tried to avoid that term in other discussions because it wasn't an invasion).[/QUOTE]Do you have citations for this "traditional Arabian" invasion hypothesis, that attributes the origin of "Ethiopian" cultural complexes to Sabeans? As for the unhighlighted bit, see post above. [QUOTE]Yom: I'm in denial of nothing, and your comment still has nothing to do with the Tihama cultural complex, which you were first referring to.[/QUOTE]Cite where I made specific reference to "Tihama cultural complex"; it was you, who mentioned it. And yes, you do seem to be in denial of the extent of Sabean influence on both the people and cultural complex in the African Horn. [QUOTE]Yom: Explain to me exactly how a cultural complex originating from Ethiopia [b]extant on both sides of the Red Sea[/b] is evidence of a [i]Sabaean[/i] presence in Ethiopia.[/QUOTE]Explain what you mean by a cultural complex "originating from Ethiopia" that is "extant on both sides of the Red Sea". I already provided brief Munro-Hay notes on the said influences; where were you, mentally speaking, when all those notes were presented? [QUOTE]Yom: First of all, I don't think Sabaeans existed as a kingdom at this time.[/QUOTE]You don't think that Sabean didn't exist at what time? [QUOTE]Yom: Again, I think you are misinterpreting my beliefs.[/QUOTE]How so? [QUOTE]Yom: I don't deny that there were ever Sabaeans in Ethiopia as there certainly have been.[/QUOTE]Then why are you asking me to provide you evidence of their presence in the region, even though it had already been provided? LOl. [QUOTE]Yom: However, I do reject that the D`mt civilization was Sabaean in origin or rose due to Sabaean influences.[/QUOTE]It could have been started by Sabeans, or the local Ethiopians; there are indications as per Munro-hay, that they were likely local elites. [QUOTE]Yom: I gave a definition above regarding genetics. Are you speaking genetically, culturally, what?[/QUOTE]As I responded accordingly above, the likes of Amhara carry noticeable frequencies of Eurasian derived lineages. Does that mean anythin to you, with regards to the genetic imprint that the South Arabian immigrants could have left behind? [/QB][/QUOTE]
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