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OT: Settling the issues on "Ethio-Sabean" connections, "Habashat", and the related
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Yom: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Supercar: Good, because that answer discredits the idea of equating "Ethiopia" with "Habasha". [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]If you are trying to say there has been population continuation from whence the term "Habasha" had been used to present, then the answer is yes. Beyond that, I see no rationale for equating "Habasha" used in the past with contemporary "Ethiopia".[/QUOTE]No, not in a literal sense, nor in the sense that the word "Ethiopia" can be replaced for "Habasha" in earlier times. I am saying, however, that the name of the state has been "Ethiopia" for much longer than Yonis was saying. [QUOTE]Do you have citations from these two examples? Of course, you do realize that the Amhara, based on genetic samples, harbor reasonable amounts of Eurasian derived paternal lineages. What do you make of that?[/QUOTE]I don't have any specific citations for Conti Rossini, but see [URL=http://www.addistribune.com/Archives/2003/01/17-01-03/Let.htm]here[/URL]. For Megalomattis, see [url=]here[/url], with this quotation: "It is historically erroneous and politically misleading for the Amhara – Tigray ruled country to change its real name, Abyssinia, and pretend to be called by a name like Ethiopia that is totally irrelevant to these two peoples, who descend from the ancient Axumite Abyssinians, who in turn were the offspring of one Ancient Yemenite (so please, do not confuse, they are non-Arabic) tribe that we first attested on Ancient Yemenite epigraphic documentation. The event has traces in the past of course, but was intensified and generalized over the past 50 years, under colonial academic and diplomatic guidance of the Abyssinian ruling class. " Regarding the genetic studies you refer to, I'm not adequately knowledgable to comment on their veracity, but it would not surprise me if some of those lineages determined to be "Eurasian" existed in the pre-Out of Africa migration population of the Horn of Africa and that Yemeni contributions to the Ethiopian gene pool would be difficult to measure due to this closeness. Also, many of these study refer to "Caucasoid" genes, which is an artificial construct, as completely non-mixed Ethiopians can also be said to be craniofacially "Caucasoid." See [URL=http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2002_v70_p265-268.pdf]here[/URL] for an interesting study on the ancientness of Ethiopian genes. [QUOTE]Please provide the said citation, where I've said any such thing.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]I already know about the proto-Sinaitic script found in Egypt. Remember, we had that discussion before. So, this is nothing but red herring.[/QUOTE]It's not a red herring. You said "no such alphabet has been found to have been developed in Egypt," so I pointed to an alphabet developed in middle Egypt as opposed to the Proto-Sinaitic script, which is located closer to Canaan and the Levant. [QUOTE]What relevance does your mentioning of proto-Sinaitic in Egypt have to do with the fact that early Ethiopic script show strong influences from the Sabean script?[/QUOTE]I didn't deny the close relation of Ge'ez and Sabaean script. Ge'ez probably derived from Sabaean, but I don't rule out the possibility that it instead shares a common ancestor with it. Proto-Sinaitic's only relevance is that it (or the Wadi el-Hol script) could have been transmitted through trade southward instead of first north and then south. [QUOTE]...based on available indicators, it is safe to make that assessment.[/QUOTE]If the first inscriptions of the Minaean script are in the 8th c. B.C., contemporary with the D`mt civilization which used a type of ESA in Ethiopia, I'm not sure that any conclusion can be made either way. [QUOTE]]Don't confuse "D'mt" with a script. What are you relying on, when you make a claim such as the one above? Is it on a script? If so, what script?[/QUOTE]I'm not saying D`mt was a script, just noting that it used a type of ESA at the same time period as the Minaean script. Looking at the inscriptions in the 8th edition of [i]Annales d'Ethiopie[/i], it seems to be the standard ESA (some versions have a "B" that looks like an M, e.g. or an "R" that isn't just one curve or an "M" that doesn't consist of distinct triangles). [QUOTE]Not any alphabetically that I'm aware of. I gather that it has more to do with language dialect, than the script itself, i.e., alphabets, per se.[/QUOTE]Too bad, differences in writing styles could have shed some light into the matter. [QUOTE]Basically something I've gathered from general internet browsing,.[/QUOTE]I'd love a source, still. I don't doubt your claims, but what I know about SA chronology is limited since it is still so little known. [QUOTE]This however, is besides the point; the point was to demonstrate that Sabean influenced Ethiopic script, rather than vice versa, as exemplified by the strong resemblance between early Ethiopic script and Sabean, and the associated point made by Peter Daniels.[/QUOTE]The existence of contemporary inscriptions does not show that the origin is Sabaean (actually Minaean, I guess) rather than a shared cultural trait. Peter Daniel's point would indicate that the script was originally for Sabaean due to the loss of interdentals and ghayin in Ge'ez, but these phonetic changes were in the process of happening during the time of D`mt. Earlier texts use "ṯ," "ḏ," while later texts use "s/š" and "z." [QUOTE]In which case, you still have not addressed Mr. Daniels point, which was to demonstrate that Ethiopic scripts derived from Sabean. Mr. Bekerie's position has no bearings on that point.[/QUOTE]I have addressed the questions of interdentals (which is what I believe what you're referring to) above. [QUOTE]Of course, they are referring to aspects that are "linguistic". LoL. Why wouldn't the pattern and sequence of writing names and titles of people, not be considered linguistic?[/QUOTE]It's more stylistic, though grammar could play a part. Grammatical features and to a lesser degree vocabulary are more likely what they're referring to. [QUOTE] The [i]type[/i] of writing used, as I have demonstrated via Munro-Hay's notes and Mr. Daniels comments, is likened to the Sabean script, and hence the usage of the term "pure" [i]Sabean[/i].[/QUOTE]I don't understand what you're talking about here. I thought you were referring to the non-royal "pure" Sabaean language inscriptions. If you're talking about the alphabet, then it's without a doubt ESA. [QUOTE]The idea of whether Sabean immigrants were colonists in the region, has neither been discredited or proven. I agree though, that there is more going for the idea that there was already complex cultures in the African Horn, prior to inter-regional interactions with South Arabian complexes.[/QUOTE]I'm glad you realize that the indigenous origin possibility is the more likely of the two, but given what you just cited (complex cultures) and the use of a sort of Proto-Ge'ez in all of the Royal inscriptions of D`mt, it seems to me that the idea of "colonists" is unfounded. The whole idea comes from Conti Rossini's ideas, which, according to Pankhurst in a link above "were largely based on conjecture." [QUOTE]Do you have citations for this "traditional Arabian" invasion hypothesis, that attributes the origin of "Ethiopian" cultural complexes to Sabeans? As for the unhighlighted bit, see post above.[/QUOTE]Yes, see the Megalomattis link above and the link by Richard Pankhurst which discusses the issue. [QUOTE]Cite where I made specific reference to "Tihama cultural complex"; it was you, who mentioned it. And yes, you do seem to be in denial of the extent of Sabean influence on both the people and cultural complex in the African Horn.[/QUOTE]Whatever. I was the one who made a reference to the Tihama cultural complex, but you were the one who cited that section of my post to put your response saying "I guess you will by now, have noticed the contradictions in your earlier claim of Sabean migration being 'discredited' and this one - right?" as if the existence of the Tihama cultural complex had anything to do with a Sabaean migration. [QUOTE]Explain what you mean by a cultural complex "originating from Ethiopia" that is "extant on both sides of the Red Sea".[/QUOTE]I'm talking about the Tihama cultural complex. [QUOTE]I already provided brief Munro-Hay notes on the said influences; where were you, mentally speaking, when all those notes were presented?[/QUOTE]I read them. Again, do not be rude in discussions, it only stalls them. The Munro-Hay notes have nothing to do with what I'm talking about here, however. He doesn't refer to the Tihama cultural complex except in passing. [QUOTE]You don't think that Sabean didn't exist at what time?[/QUOTE]During the time of the Tihama cultural complex, which began mid-second millenium BC (but ended 1st millenium, when Sabaeans would have existed). [QUOTE]Then why are you asking me to provide you evidence of their presence in the region, even though it had already been provided? LOl.[/QUOTE]I never asked you to provide evidence of their presence in the region. What I dispute is the nature and extent of their presence. [QUOTE]It could have been started by Sabeans, or the local Ethiopians; there are indications as per Munro-hay, that they were likely local elites.[/QUOTE]The language of the inscriptions indicates this. The only evidence that it could have been begun by Sabaeans is the use of the same script, whose origins are still not well-known. [QUOTE]As I responded accordingly above, the likes of Amhara carry noticeable frequencies of Eurasian derived lineages. Does that mean anythin to you, with regards to the genetic imprint that the South Arabian immigrants could have left behind?[/QUOTE]I have addressed this above. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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